Yasukuni Shrine Website Hacked By Chinese?

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1. SniperWZ

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 4:08 pm

   it would be more cool if someone blew that shrine up, or put a statue of Doolittle with one foot stepping on a prone Tojo or the Showa Tenno Heika. Banzai!!!!

   Reply
2. Bobby Boberton

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 4:18 pm

   I find it highly hypocritical that Chinese people would be happy that this site was hacked and a Chinese flag put there. However I can only imagine the uproar if this was done to a similar Chinese site.
   I’m sure the Japanes will return the favour so I guess we’ll see soon enough.

   Reply
   • Kerry

     Wednesday, April 7, 2010 at 2:58 am

     And how would you know this hasn’t caused an uproar in Japan? You ignorant fool. Must be one of those geeky japanophiles high on anime & Japanese porn.

     Reply
3. Kai

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 4:25 pm

   @ Bobby Boberton:

   That’s not highly hypocritical, that’s just human nature.

   Reply
4. Bobby Boberton

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 4:33 pm

   I assume you are Chinese? Would you like it if someone in Japan did that same thing to a Chinese site? Human nature is what cave men used for survival. In the civilized world we do to others as we would have them do to us.

   Reply
5. Peteryang

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 4:43 pm

   methinks its done by the same people who hacked taiwan’s DDP site. and there need not be a question mark in the title, everyone can see they are chinese.

   I used to study hacking and its technically not very difficult to alter the main page display if the site is poorly secured, otherwise ddos is the only option, but that will do collateral damage to your own network.

   yasukuni must have a crappy host. and I sense a large scale cyber warfare between china and japan is imminent.

   Reply
6. Kai

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 4:44 pm

   @ Bobby Boberton:

   You misunderstand. I’m not saying its right or wrong, I’m just saying it is human nature to often delight in “sticking it” to others even if one wouldn’t appreciates it happening in reverse.

   Also, come on, you know you’d have a hard time arguing that the “civilized” only abides by the golden rule and is never hypocritical.

   Reply
7. Peteryang

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 5:07 pm

   @bobby

   shits liek this happening all the time in the world so I don’t see why the fuzz here??? yeah they got owned by some chinese nerds and all the other nerds got +1 in ego and probly masturbated to some anime character then we move on, thats all theres to it. you are over sensitive, that makes you look like these nationalist nerds.

   Reply
8. Samael

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 6:27 pm

   cavemen hit each others head with clubs. now we hack each others sites. sounds pretty human nature to me. In fact you have civilization to thank for that, just be glad we don’t rely on hitting each other anymore, using anything.

   Reply
9. Freda

   Friday, December 26, 2008 at 6:28 pm

   Gee that’s a real heavy traffic site, NOT!. All that’s happened is, far more people now know it exists.

   Reply
10. fireworks

    Friday, December 26, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    Hackers always go for the easy targets. Websites that are not using the latest security patch or just very lax security configuration. Anyway, its a nice and cheap way to get attention. I don’t think the Japanese will be standing still. There will always be extremist elements in society who will up the one brickmanship.

    I hope most people have better use for their time rather than stir up the Japanese.

    Reply
11. Inst

    Friday, December 26, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    I’d be interested to see a Sino-Japanese hacker war, as much as I’d be interested to see a Sino-Russian hacker war, a Sino-Indian hacker war, or a Russo-Indian hacker war. All of these countries have good computer professionals, and to watch the hackers go at it would be quite entertaining.

    If you guys are so 1337, why don’t you go for 2ch or 2chan? It would be a great hacker war.

    Reply
12. Yan Xishan

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 3:09 am

    I love this comment:

    “Boycott Japanese goods (Japanese women excluded).”

    Sometimes I wonder what is going on in the minds of the many young Chinese men who violently hate Japan, yet spend much of their free time (insert self-pleasure metaphor here) while watching Japanese porn. I think China needs to have some 改革开放 in the world of pornography, and create some patriotic spank material for the young men of China. I do not think Chinese underwear magazines can really compete with that sick, sick Japanese porn. Until one can buy used panties from vending machines in the streets of Taiyuan, we can never be free from this curse.

    阎锡山

    Reply
13. Inst

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 3:11 am

    You’re definitely not Bokane, I don’t think your prose has the same creativity as his.

    Reply
14. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 9:38 am

    I think a hacker war would be very entertaining. With regards to Yan, I also found that comment about (Japanese women excluded) extremely funny.

    Japanese porn is a bit overrated though. Too much whining, and too manufactured. Chinese porn and korean porn are much more realistic and interesting to watch.

    Japanese women in reality are also very easy to get. Can’t help but think how I’m doing my country proud everytime I pick up a Japanese girl ;).

    Reply
15. gan

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 11:04 am

    does it change anything?

    Reply
16. Alex

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 11:47 am

    This meddling in another country’s internal affairs has hurt the feelings of all Japanese people …

    Reply
17. randy

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    americans did this? fuck you!!!!!

    Reply
18. fcuk da lu ren

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    Alright the time is now!!! Release the nanotechnology placed in the playstations and PSP’s that will be the end of the Chinese!!! LOL. Once I had this fantasy of going to the Shrine and tossing red paint on the shrine, stirpping to nothing and covering myself in a Chinese flag while I pleasure myself. I would be the new “lei feng”!!!

    Oh wait, then I realized I am Canadian and that wouldn’t quite work. hahahah

    Reply
19. Kai

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    @ Alex:

    HAH! Excellent!

    Reply
20. Peteryang

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    we have been hurt by everybody, then we go hurt everybody, simply logic, everybody is trying to fcuking everybody.

    Reply
21. Veer Left

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    NERD WARFARE! E TERRORISM!!! When does it end?

    Reply
22. Rick in China

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    @’hackers’
    Working in the software business and playing with computers for the last 16 years has taught me much about the wannabe skriptkiddiez and braggarts posting their pasted knowledge on forums and such – hackers do not claim to be hackers, period, zip it. Reading insecure.org type sites or CotDC type sites and finding out of date servers that don’t patch their shit and walking through step by step instructions don’t make you a hacker.

    @Topic
    This is clearly the best marketing ever. As someone mentioned above, the site was not likely frequently visited – shit like this pumps massive traffic through from people who would otherwise not likely visit – not to mention the fact changing the site back to the original is not exactly a challenging task. This is equiv to skank singer bitches flashing their panty-less snatches when they gettin out of a car in hollywood, getting in the news in any form bumps their celebrity profile significantly. If the kids who changed the site are Chinese, they certainly fucked the goat on this one – pushing this site into “Everyone go look” stardome.

    In any case, I agree with Bobby’s thought that it’s highly hypocritical – I mean – it’s the classic case of poor dude wins the lottery and immediately starts to point down at other poor people, as soon as the crybaby bitch on the bottom gets their first triumph they turn into that which they were protesting.. “Why you oppressing us???” then “HAH fuckers take that” – blatant hypocrisy, grow up.

    Reply
23. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    Fcuk and Kai, it is amusing to find your comments on every article on this website. In particular I was reading a comment posted by Fcuck earlier, describing the event that triggered his strong dislike towards Chinese people.

    I believe that the main flaw affecting the daily life of the people living in China is the inability or reluctance to enforce laws. However it only takes a week in China for anyone to realise and accept the core of the problem is imbedded in Chinese culture and ethos, which must gradually change as China is evolving into a stronger and more educated nation.

    You mentioned in a previous comment, a scenario where you warned a Chinese person in China that he shouldn’t smoke where there was a no smoking sign. Applying the logic that you have learned in Canada, what you did was clearly correct. It also seemed unlikely that the person you were asking would be a threat to you since you are a trained fighter/bouncer. You assessed the situation, realised you could enforce your words and made, what was in your mind, a rational choice.

    Now let’s consider what was wrong with how you handled the situation:

    1.) You are not in Canada but China, it is clear to anyone who has lived in China for a brief period to know that the laws in China are not enforced as strictly. If you were more observant and humble, you would also realise that this happens more often than not. Should you accept it? Maybe not, but perhaps then, you should have reported it to management rather than face this man directly. As soon as you confront somebody, you give them the impression that you are asserting authority. Does a Chinese man who has lived in China for all his life, who is well aware of how lax the regulations are, who owes no duty to you (but only to the management) think that you have the authority to make demands of him? Especially when you are a visitor to his country?

    2.) If you are the only white man inside a black bar in the Bronx, and the African man next to you smokes in front of a no smoking sign with his four African friends. Will you also tell him to put out his light?

    I think you should not ignore the fact that you misassessed the situation and overestimated your own ability. It was your own culturally insensitivity or for a better word, tolerance, that got you into your mess.

    The result of that incident is what is colloquially named as playing the ‘race card’. The angered man did the only thing that he could to arouse a collective interest in fighting you. The rest was a personal vendetta using dirty tactics. Would the same thing not happen in a different country or with a different ethnicity?

    This is something for you to consider….

    Reply
24. Rick in China

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    @YC
    RE: “who owes no duty to you (but only to the management)”
    You’re missing the point here, first of all, he owes duty to *the public*, society, that’s why RULES in society exist. Whether they are enforced strictly or not is irrelevant to whether or not they ‘should’ be followed. In addition, I would assume you’ve lived in some farmer city as opposed to, say, Shanghai, where the rules are much more strictly followed and enforced in general. By mentioning to the dude that he should not smoke in a non-smoking area he is doing the PUBLIC a favor.

    RE: “It was your own culturally insensitivity” Are you implying that, if you ask the average Chinese citizen, “Should you follow rules laid out by the Chinese government for the betterment of society?” they would say “NO, You should do as you please.”? That’s what it sounds like you’re saying to me, or, well, you simply don’t understand the culture which you claim to be defending.

    RE: “bronx”

    I don’t think you know shit about the Bronx – 1/2 of the racial make-up in the Bronx is hispanic.

    RE: “This is something for you to consider….” I suggest you consider unzipping my pants with yer teeth, your nonsense soap-boxing is done.

    Reply
25. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Rick, I don’t live in America so I do not know what the racial make-up is in the Bronx. However, I do know it is considered a ghetto area, and thus I made my example based on this assumption. However, changing the black/african people to hispanics, what would your answer to the question be?

    1.) I don’t deny that every citizen has the obligation to follow the law. However “LEGALLY”, they only have a duty to comply to the regulations of the institution that imposed it.

    2.) A law is of no value unless it can be enforced.

    3.) I am referring to Shanghai and yes rules are not enforced often.

    On a personal level: I can take as much weighted luggage as I like through the international airport without paying fines; I can skip lines in certain hospitals and restaurants; I can get away with parking infringments by mentioning my connections.

    On a larger scale: corruption, one of China’s biggest problems.

    4.) People have the discretion whether they want to do the public a favour. It is not an entitlement or legally enforceable.

    5.) The MAIN point is something that you are missing. The fact is that Fcuk failed to conform to the culture in China where certain rules aren’t enforced. As I mentioned, he had no legal right to enforce the laws that were laid by the institution he was staying in. He also failed to take into account that many rules in China aren’t enforced as strictly as in Canada.

    I can give a relevant example right now of a similar situation. If you take your son to play basketball at a local park. A hooligan is slam dunking a ring which clearly has a sign saying no dunking. You realise that they he is likely to break the ring and cripple you and your son’s enjoyment of the premises in the future. this guy is clearly a bad a$s who has been doing this his whole life and will not take $hit from anyone. Are you going to confront him?

    Reply
26. jayman

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    Apparently that website has been under DOS attack since September.

    Russian hackers have been attacking Estonia, Lithuania, Georgia, and United States computers for quite some time now.

    As for porn, while I’m interested in the subject, I can not intelligently discuss the difference between Chinese, Japanese, or Korean varieties. Here it’s all called Asian.

    Reply
27. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    Let me also point out Rick, that what I meant of my examples above is that there is a difference between the right decision and the wise decision. I just think that fcuk felt a little too entitled to his ability to enforce the law. Even in America he would not have an entitlement to personally stop someone from smoking. Not to mention that what he did certainly wasnt wise, given the fact that the race card could and probably would be played.

    Reply
28. jayman

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    “The fact is that Fcuk failed to conform to the culture in China where certain rules aren’t enforced. As I mentioned, he had no legal right to enforce the laws that were laid by the institution he was staying in. He also failed to take into account that many rules in China aren’t enforced as strictly as in Canada.”

    Why have rules then? How is someone to know which rules are “real” and which ones are safe to ignore? If people can’t stand up and say breaking the rules is bad, who should?

    Even in America he would not have an entitlement to personally stop someone from smoking.

    In America this is very common. Perhaps the smoker just didn’t see the sign? Pointing out that it is a non-smoking area is polite and expected, as is telling them where they can smoke. Flipping out and turning it into a racial and/or cultural thing is what we call ‘over-reacting’.

    “…Are you going to confront him?”

    Of course. It is the responsibility of every citizen to make sure that the rules are followed. Not just the popular rules. And not just people smaller than you.

    Do not expect police or management to save you. Save yourself.

    Reply
29. Samael

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    I don’t know what the deal is in the US, but here in Oz (and in many common law countries i believe) you can actually make a citizen’s arrest. Although it probably does not entitle you to arrest someone for smoking, by extension it does indeed entitle you to personally stop someone doing it. Whether its a good idea that you should or not, is of course a whole other matter lol.

    Reply
30. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Samuel, in Australia you can only make a citizens arrest if a person is breaking a law that is punishible as an indictible offence with the sanction of imprisonment. Depending on the jurisidiction you will be looking at either common law or the criminal code. Without going into more detail, I think you get the idea.

    Without a legal justification such as delegated authority or performing a citizens arrest, you have no entitlement to stop someone doing something such as smoking in a public place. Otherwise you will be convicted of assault or false imprisonment.

    Reply
31. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Hi Jayman,

    on a non-legal basis, what you say does make sense. If indeed we were in a country where rules were strictly adhered to and part of the culture then morally you would be correct. But you should ask yourself, whether you are in a country where smoking in a non smoking area is common. It’s easy to say that you’ll act in a certain way when you arent put in the situation.

    Legally, what you say is incorrect. Let the police do their job and let the institution enforce their rules. Let management take care of it. Never take things into your own hands. You don’t own the place, you don’t have a legal justification to enforce it. In Australia, generally rules and enforcement goes hand in hand. If you don’t listen to the person asking you politely, you get escorted out embarassingly by management.

    Reply
32. Kai

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    I agree that this news may only bring more visitors to that website, but I doubt it is going to help the Yasukuni Shrine or extreme right-wing interpretation of WW2 history. The hacking itself might make the Chinese hackers look immature, but overall, the effect of this news is about the same as Kozumi visiting the shrine: it just reminds most people how controversial or outrageous Japanese revisionism is and the enmity between revisionists and those who oppose/despise them.

    @ YC:

    I think you should’ve written all of this in the topic FDLR posted his story.

    You are right, doing what is right and doing what is wise can be different. However, I don’t think it was reasonable to expect FDLR to have considered all of the interpersonal dynamics (of authority, etc.) you suggested at that time (which were quite astute BTW). He made a polite request as one patron to another with reference to a clearly visible sign representing the establishment’s rules.

    I’m sure he understood and continues to understand that not all rules are followed or enforced strictly in China, but that is no reason for him to accept the situation. Moreover, what he did was not unreasonable even in the context of a lax enforcement society. To always be mindful or conformist to establish norms would preclude a lot of “good” changes in society.

    Also, I don’t think FDLR had any thoughts of his “entitlement” to enforce the law. I think he merely doesn’t like people smoking around him when he’s specifically chosen a place that forbids smoking and thought a polite request was an entirely reasonable thing to do. You can even consider his request to the smoker as one person asking a favor of another.

    Finally, both you and I agree that the other guy was an ass. I think that’s pretty much all there is worth noting about the incident.

    Reply
33. bopomofo

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    Fcuk is Asian. He isn’t Caucasian although I’m sure part of him wishes he was.

    Reply
34. Kai

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    @ YC:

    Also, all this talk of legality is going off track. I don’t remember what post FDLR’s story was in for me to review but, come on, the matter between FDLR and the smoker was not about legality. Him asking the guy to stop smoking was not him enforcing the law. It was him asking another patron to observe the rules of the premises. He only considered his physical abilities the moment the other guy became confrontational. And who wouldn’t? Unless I mistakenly remember the sequence of the story’s events, you’re making FDLR sound like he got in the guy’s face and physically threatened him to make him stop smoking.

    Reply
35. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    Kai, I speak on the basis of rational thought.

    Forgive me for being rational, but generally before i make a decision I consider these steps:

    1.) Am I legally allowed to do this

    2.) Will I be able to exercise my legal rights

    3.) What are the potential consequences if I decide to go through with it

    4.) What benefits do I receive if I decide to go through with it

    5.) Do the benefits outweigh the costs?

    6.) Can I actually go through with it?

    Of course in the context of these steps, I will consider the environment surrounding me.

    Take this environment in consideration:

    1.) This guy is in a shopping center with his wife in a no smoking area. He has probably never been warned for not smoking and if he has, it was probably from security.

    2.) Out of the blue a foreigner comes and challenges his authority.

    He clearly feels this foreigner has no right telling him what to do.

    He also feels intimidated and embarrassed, that a visitor in his country is demanding what even a normal Chinese citizen would not ask AND furthermore speaks in Chinese.

    3.) He then tells the foreigner out of rage and embarrassment to go back to his country if he didn’t like it. Note: I don’t endorse racism here, I’m just reciting the facts.

    4.) Now next, listen to what Fcuck said in his comment:

    At this point he stood up, I stood up and he said “dont touch me lao wai” and then proceeded to grab my arm.

    I was a bit confused reading this, because from reading it in the order that its placed. It appears contradictory that the Chinese man said ‘don’t touch me Lao Wai’ when Fcuck claims the Chinese man grabbed his arm.

    5.) Next Fcuk overreacts, forcibly sweeps him and gets him in a kneeling position in front of the other people and even possibly his wife. He has his fist in place ready to beat him to a pulp. He describes this in the post with great pride of his bouncing/law enforcement/competitive fighting background.

    Now change the scenario, these people are black and fcuck is white. A few other blacks are a meter away. If I was the black guy and I wanted revenge (which I obviously would at that stage) I would have also played the race card. In the case of African American’s getting beaten up by a black guy. I doubt I’d even need to state my case.

    How is Fcuck considering the fact that generally most Chinese citizens mind their own business and don’t go about with a self-righteous attitude of directly telling someone off. What about the important value of not losing face, which is so important to the Chinese people. This is what I mean by saving face.

    Giving another example, how would it be if a white person went to a black area and beat up a black guy for smoking illegally? Don’t tell me racism won’t be an issue. If this happened in an Australian shopping center, Fcuck may state the guy was smoking in a non smoking area. The guy smoking might get a slap in the wrist. However, the force that Fcuck applied to the Chinese man, whether the man grabbed him first or not is excessive. Fcuck would be liable for something more serious. Possibly assault but the defence of self defence would only be partial as it is excessive.

    To point out an inconsistency as well, why would the Chinese man grab Fcucks arm? Because he was gay? Or to do what? I don’t see how there is a logical flow of events.

    Reply
36. jayman

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    @YC

    I didn’t mean to seem ill-mannered. Hello, and well met.

    There are 1.3 billion Chinese people and only 1.5 million police officers. Individuals may not have a legal basis for asking another citizen to follow the rules, but shouldn’t moral authority be enough to authorize their request?

    If you see someone picking up litter, would you say thank you? If you see someone in trouble, would you not help? It is no different if you see someone doing the wrong thing. It doesn’t matter if it’s popular to ignore the rules, it only matters that there are rules in place and all citizens interested in an orderly society have a vested interest in seeing those rules upheld.

    I’m not saying you should beat someone up because they’re smoking, or littering, or jaywalking. I would never advocate violence. But I’m also no coward. The only reason people ignore no smoking signs is because they can. And those little things are a symptom of a much larger problem.

    I just don’t understand how you can say that corruption is a major problem in China, but that individual citizens should have no authority to request that rules be followed. Who is going to do it for you?

    Reply
37. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    To be honest Jay, I do understand where you are coming from. But in a society such as China its disadvantageous to always pursue a moral vendetta. People in China are known to look the other way when dealing with things that don’t concern them. The way the issue would have been properly resolved would be to contact security or the relevant officer on duty. Please read my above post for more details of the incident. I believe that Fcuk was probably warning the man in a very condescending tone, despite using polite words.

    It’s one thing to warn someone politely, but a different thing altogether if the person u are warning feels intimidated or insulted by you. I personally would be very insulted if a 14 year old punk with a mohawk demands that I pick up the rubbish which I forgot to throw in the bin, rather than a respectable old man. Theoretically it shouldn’t make a difference, but to me it does.

    A black man will be more insulted if a white guy asks him to clean up after a mess than a fellow black brother. Regardless if there was any racism in the demand at all.

    Reply
38. yc

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Kai, after reading the article more closely. The more likely scenario that I would imagine actually happened was that Fcuk went to grab the cigarette (unlawfully i might add) from the man, and the man said ‘don’t touch me’, upon which Fcuck effectively decked the guy. The guy who is decked uses the race card to get nationalistic support to wrongly get fcuck arrested. Are we supposed to sympathise with Fcuk who took the law into his own hands? I certainly don’t!

    Reply
39. jayman

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    @YC

    I apologize for my misunderstandings and the resulting confusion. I can not and, furthermore, would not wish to defend FDLR’s violent confrontation over smoking a cigarette. I can’t say with any authority how FDLR initially addressed the man and I don’t understand enough about Chinese culture to speak about why the man may have reacted as he did.

    My comments were addressed to your comments, without proper context. But you didn’t say that FDLR shouldn’t have used violence (with which I completely agree), you said that he shouldn’t even have asked someone not to smoke in a no-smoking area (with which I completely disagree).

    People in China are known to look the other way when dealing with things that don’t concern them.

    I kind of understand why it is this way (the nail that sticks out gets hammered, or however it goes) but I think China will continue to have many problems until this changes. That is the point I was trying to make.

    Corruption doesn’t begin with powerful officials doing whatever they want. It starts with a disregard for common courtesy and fear in the common man to stand up for what’s right.

    Reply
40. Kai

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    @ YC:

    Making presumptions of what happened contrary to the only record we have is NOT rational thought.

    Now FDLR can respond to your list of questions himself but I’ll give you my answers based upon what we can reasonably judge from the narrative given:

    1.) Yes, FDLR is legally allowed to request a fellow patron to not smoke.

    2.) Yes, FDLR was able to exercise his legal right to make a request by opening his mouth and emitting sound.

    3.) There are many potential consequences, and the most reasonable consequence was that the man would kindly put out his cigarette in observance of the establishment’s rules. Him refusing to do so could be imagined but even in China, it is NOT expected that people would 1) refuse to honor a simple request especially when the rules are advertised and 2) then proceed to malign you in hopes of getting bystanders to beat your ass.

    4.) In FDLR’s case, being able to enjoy his time at the non-smoking coffee shop without having to breathe in second-hand smoke.

    5.) The reasonable cost was the effort expended to make the request. It is, again, unreasonable for FDLR much less anyone else to expect that the man would be so arrogant, rude, and malicious. Are you seriously blaming FDLR for assuming that the smoker was a reasonable man?

    6.) Yes, FDLR was able to open his mouth and emit sound. That sound was according to the only narrative we have, a polite request.

    Look, you may doubt FDLR’s story or version of events, but unless you were there as witness (or you’re the smoker), it is all that we have to go on. Insofar as the story is inaccurate, incomplete, or wrong, we ALL reserve the right to retract our sympathy or understanding. THIS is “rational” whereas fabricating your own version of events in order to justify your own antagonism towards him relative to this issue is NOT.

    Out of the blue a foreigner comes and challenges his authority.

    Are you serious? “Authority?” Since when did anyone have the “authority” to smoke wherever they want? They have the FREEDOM to smoke constrained by the property they are on AND with whom they share. If he refuses to comply, the establishment can remove him because it is their property. A fellow patron may not remove him but the patron MAY COMMUNICATE their opinion or request.

    He clearly feels this foreigner has no right telling him what to do.

    He also feels intimidated and embarrassed, that a visitor in his country is demanding what even a normal Chinese citizen would not ask AND furthermore speaks in Chinese.

    Yet another presumption. Your premise (“what even a normal Chinese citizen would not ask”) is false and therefore your conclusion (FDRL’s request was inappropriate) is wrong. There is absolutely no support for your premise beyond your own assumption. Even if the sum total of your personal experience suggests it, how are you going to reconcile it with the fact that I can tell you, also from personal experience, that many normal Chinese citizens ask others to observe the rules.

    We agree that he is embarrassed, maybe intimidated (at least after FDLR stood up) and yes, he doesn’t think the foreigner should tell him what to do. That’s why he is an idiotic ass not very deserving of any sympathy to coddle his insecure arrogance.

    4.) Now next, listen to what Fcuck said in his comment:

    At this point he stood up, I stood up and he said “dont touch me lao wai” and then proceeded to grab my arm.

    I was a bit confused reading this, because from reading it in the order that its placed. It appears contradictory that the Chinese man said ‘don’t touch me Lao Wai’ when Fcuck claims the Chinese man grabbed his arm.

    Why not first ask FDLR to clarify instead of making assumptions? What would’ve been the more “rational” thing for you to do, Mr. Rationality?

    I responded to this point of his story as well and I suggested that the man, afraid of FDLR “touching” him, instinctively reached out to block/stop FDLR from doing so. This is not an uncommon reflex action, similar to extending your arms to stop someone you feel is charging at you. Note my comment where I said it was ironic that he asked FDLR not to touch him yet actually touched FDLR himself.

    Have you been in a physical confrontation before?

    Now, if FDLR comes and says “you’re right, I made the first move, and then he grabbed my arm…” then my position would change. However, I think you’re overlooking a very real explanation and citing it as an “inconsistency” or FDLR intentionally and maliciously leaving out a critical detail to gain sympathy.

    5.) Next Fcuk overreacts, forcibly sweeps him and gets him in a kneeling position in front of the other people and even possibly his wife. He has his fist in place ready to beat him to a pulp. He describes this in the post with great pride of his bouncing/law enforcement/competitive fighting background.

    This I will agree with you as an overreaction that a normal person would unlikely do. Yet, without determining right or wrong, a normal person does not have FDLR’s self-proclaimed bouncing/law enforcement/competitive fighting background. So FDLR’s background prompted him in reacting swiftly and decisively in a heated situation, perhaps to his detriment. He’s only human, and maybe his own instincts/reflexive actions were faster than his ability to consider all of the social context you’ve been so kind to hash out above. And, again, based upon the record we have, the smoker instigated and made first contact.

    So the smoker was an ass and was embarrassed by FDLR, and in embarrassing the smoker, FDLR found himself in a whole shitload of trouble. Sometimes things just don’t work out peacefully…but are you seriously suggesting that FDLR’s actions are so unreasonable or so utterly foreign to an environment like China’s?

    We all understand why the race card was played. It is still pathetic.

    The only point that has weight with your whole reconstructive argument is that FDLR’s reaction was excessive. I can agree with that but at the same time I don’t find it surprising whatsoever that someone with some physical combat training is capable of being far more effective and efficient in physical confrontations. I can comfortably acknowledge that even as I criticize the smoker for being not just inconsiderate but also rude, arrogant, confrontational, and an insecure, lying scumbag.

    You have fabricated and convinced yourself of an entirely separate sequence of events. That is NOT rational. According to the only testimony we have, we can rationally conclude that FDLR did not set out to take “the law into his own hands” but at most excessively subdued a perceived assailant. FDLR made a polite request, he did not get physical until the other party did so. Insofar as this narrative is accurate, FDLR can claim defense, but I am not sure how a court of law would rule on whether it was “excessive” or not.

    But in a society such as China its disadvantageous to always pursue a moral vendetta.

    It being disadvantageous does not mean one should not do so. I don’t think FDLR was pursuing a “moral vendetta” either, much less “always” doing so. Even in China, many people do things that are disadvantageous or endure discomfort to pursue the things that matter to them. Maybe you should channel all your anti-FDLRness towards all the signatories of Charter 08? We all know how disadvantageous that is.

    People in China are known to look the other way when dealing with things that don’t concern them.

    Yeah, and so what? Is that a good thing? Does it matter if people don’t? Are there no Chinese who don’t? I believe breathing second hand smoke is something that DOES concern FDLR and your argument of considering social context is rapidly becoming unreasonably black and white. FDLR’s request, yet again, was reasonable and, yes, legal. A request by itself is not a moral vendetta nor is it taking the law into his own hands.

    The way the issue would have been properly resolved would be to contact security or the relevant officer on duty.

    “Proper?” I disagree and there is no social context for you to insist that either just as accidents where people are injured or killed are often solved through direct exchange between involved parties without involving higher authorities. Why can’t one patron make a request of another patron as equals? Why must FDLR go “tell the teacher” or otherwise “tattle-tale” for him to “properly” resolve the matter? This is ridiculous.

    Please read my above post for more details of the incident. I believe that Fcuk was probably warning the man in a very condescending tone, despite using polite words.

    Sure, maybe, and even then, it would not excuse the smoker for being an insecure douchebag that tried to “get back” at FDLR by lying through his teeth.

    YC, your earlier hypotheses of social context were interesting, but since then, you’ve just committed yourself to trying to argue that FDLR is somehow the bad guy. You went from trying to rationalize why the smoker behaved the way he did to making wholesale presumptions about what “really” happened so you can promote your conclusion that FDLR is the bad guy. FDLR certainly is a bad guy, but the reason I believe so is because he has a habit of being intentionally inflammatory and offensive on these internet comments. My conclusion here is based upon evidence we have before us. Unlike you, I don’t need to fabricate and suggest an alternative version of his story and pin it on him.

    I don’t get it, why are you so keen on doing that?

    Reply
41. Inst

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    Recently 4chon was shut down by a DDOS attack by some script kiddy with a botnet. All you really need to start a hack attack is a bunch of zombies comprising a botnet in the right country.

    The main problem with a Sino-Japanese zombie war would be that most Chinese hackers / cyber-criminals use Chinese botnets, because Chinese computers are notoriously unsecured. All, say, 2ch would have to do, would be to ban all requests from Chinese IPs, as they already ban postings by non-Japanese IPs. I’m not sure what kind of botnet Japanese hackers would have, or would it be any fun to have the Yakuza involved; a war between nationalist hackers is all fine and dandy when it shuts down community websites for a month or so, but when people start getting killed and fingers start getting cut off it’s no longer any fun.

    Reply
42. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    Kai, I do appreciate it if you drop the smart-alec responses namely one like 1) 2) below.

    1.)Yes, FDLR is legally allowed to request a fellow patron to not smoke.

    - I never said he was not legally entitled to request someone not to smoke, he is simply not entitled to force someone not smoke.

    2.) Yes, FDLR was able to exercise his legal right to make a request by opening his mouth and emitting sound.

    - Trying to be smart again? refer to point 1.

    3.) This was not in a coffee shop btw, it was in a shopping complex where he was having a coffee. So if you are unsure, perhaps you should wait for clarifications before making assumptions ;)

    You are basing your assumptions based on your own standards. I don’t necessarily think that a grown man in front of his wife would necessarily listen to a visitor in his country telling him what he can’t and can’t do. I don’t think anyone in the man’s shoes would take well with being told

    “i realize you are literate, but I am sure you can see the sign”

    from someone who has no authority to actually enforce such regulations . I don’t care what he says about his ettiquette when he say’s a smart remark like that.

    4.) As I explained in prior posts, no reasonable Chinese man, whether in front of his wife or not, would like to asked by a visitor in their country to not smoke in a shopping area and then get their arm ceased and cigarette removed forcibly. Talking it one step at a time, the Chinese man was only aggressive after fcuk grabbed his arm. Perhaps you are right and I am wrong assuming things but the excessive force used by Fcuk afterwards is disproportionate. He is more than likely be liable for assault.

    5.) The reasonable cost is not only the superficial physical cost but also the possibility consequences of his action. If I am in a library and someone is noisy. I can choose to ignore the people talking so long as the noise is tolerable. I strongly believe that most reasonable people would not get into an argument with the person unless the noise was unbareably repetitive and annoying. This is because the cost of telling them to stop (regardless of being right or wrong) could lead to further disputes and further trouble. The same applies to China but in an even bigger magnitude.
    Especially since you are seen as a ‘law wai’ in the eyes of the Chinese.

    The reasonable cost here would be to assess, whether it was easier to move somewhere else or to confront this person. A reasonable person would consider whether asking someone to not smoke could possibly lead to dispute and an argument.

    6.) The foreigner challenges his authority was actually a typo. I meant the foreigner asserts his authority. Kai, what separates the effectiveness of speech and communication is knowledge of psychology. I find it interesting to read books about communication and psychology for selfish reasons, because it does help me get more of what I want from others. Unfortunately, whether you would like to believe it or not, the Chinese man more than likely found that the foreigner was acting as an authoritative figure. The Chinese man obviously found fcuk offensive and rude.

    Since you’ve stated your opinion on hypothetical terms, let me state mine on some real terms.

    If I was in Korea, a country that I am a visitor in, and I see a man smoking in front of me, inside a shopping centre while I was having a coffee here is my analysis.

    I’m in a country where I know nobody, where it is possible sentiment towards outsiders and where I wont perhaps be able to articulate the local language to justify myself in an argument if it arose. I consider moving the table next to me to avoid the passive smoke. Otherwise I have the option of asking him not to smoke. I would undoubtedly choose to move seats.

    No, i wouldn’t try and speak Korean to and ask him not to smoke because quite frankly I’d feel like I am engaging in a direct conflict with him that I would rather avoid. Let’s suppose I say to him not to smoke and he does ask me to go back to my own country. I certainly would not be going to extremes to put him in a position where he is about to get beaten to a pulp.

    Reply
43. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    There are correct methods to solve problems that are both legal and effective. Surely, if you went to primary or secondary school in US, Canada, Australia, you would realize that no matter how right you are in a situation, letting the teacher deal with the problem is always the orthodox and correct method. We learn this at a young age so it becomes a core value that we associate to be analogous to the way we treat the law and the relevant authority. It takes a little longer, you may not get the satisfaction of doing it yourself but it is the best course of action. If the manager of the shopping centre/coffee place was contacted this whole issue would have been resolved. You take a risk everytime you take the law in your own hands.

    The reason why most people mind their own business in China is because the culture promotes it. If you want to be the one to stick out from the crowd, then you risk the chance of being criticized or worse yet condemned. By confronting the person directly rather than seeking the manager, he put himself at the risk of trouble. I won’t justify that what the Chinese man did was right but Fcuk should accept the possible consequences of acting outside societies norm.

    Reply
44. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    And Kai, to be very honest, I’m not surprised at all that something like this happened in China. Do you live there now? Many Chinese (I wont say most) love to be in a situation where they can be patriotic and beat up a cocky foreigner. Give them one excuse and they will find make good use of it. Even better if the guy is Japanese. There are similar examples in other countries. You talk about what is rational, but doesn’t what i mention factor into what is rationall? Is that something that Fcuk should have considered?

    Reply
45. Rick in China

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    @YC
    You’re making _so many assumptions_ about the situation it’s not worth arguing. However, on principal, to answer some of your questions:

    1. In any country, I travel a lot, I would look after my rights when I feel they’re being violated – whether they are ‘legally enforceable’ or not. You keep bringing up these situations that are totally race based, “would you say something to a black man?!?” — it makes me think you’re either scared of people who are not of the same race as you, or consider some kind of automatic beat-down because you’re not the same skin color. First of all, I can take care of myself – I’ve rolled around Nairobbery at night, alone, as a white guy, and didn’t feel scared at any time. Act like a victim and you’ll be victimized. Predators hunt prey, not other predators. I respect (or disrespect) all races equally in the sense that there’s someone of every color who can kick my ass, but only in extreme situations would be afraid to voice my opinions if they’re well within reason (such as can you stop blowing smoke in my face) no matter where or who it is to….

    If you don’t have enough self-respect to stand up for what you believe is right, that’s allowed, but don’t try to blow your horn about other people who aren’t…well, for lack of a better word, pussies.

    Reply
46. YC

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 11:06 pm

    Hi Rick, I can relate and accept your methodology of thinking. Certainly there are perks and pitfalls to every personality; this I can accept. I personally take a much more cautious approach to life to assess situations for whether a conflict is necessary or whether avoidance is a better approach. Unlike you, I only stick up for something if I feel it’s legally justified and after assessing the possible consequences to my own safety and well being.

    Reply
47. David

    Saturday, December 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    No one is buried in Yasukuni, but anyone who died while serving in the Japanese armed forces (including Koreans, Chinese etc) have their souls enshrined there.

    The controversy is about the convicted war criminals who were executed after the war. The right-wing nuts who run the temple (the Japanese government doesn’t control it) decided to enshrine them as well in 1969.

    Reply
48. jamar

    Sunday, December 28, 2008 at 1:08 am

    @everyone talking about the whole FLDR thing-
    And people wonder why I want out despite all Shanghai has going for it. Perfect example right here.

    Reply
49. Paul Brandt

    Sunday, December 28, 2008 at 3:44 am

    我是保羅・約瑟夫・勃朗特，其中一個最大的電子承包商在美國，這裡Katy的得克薩斯。现在我朋友和我是您的太久的惡意網站文丐的受害者。 我要求您中止或我將亂砍您您與性交的共產主義信徒!

    Reply
50. John Tebeau

    Sunday, December 28, 2008 at 3:57 am

    I appreciate the long suffering Chinese people. I am howeve disappointed that all you can produce are low level hackers and poor quality products.

    Get a life. My servers, websites of my customers have been hacked for some reason by you people.
    eat your cats and leave the USA alone.
    Jteebs

    Reply