Harbin Student Killed By Six Police Started Fight

Yesterday, the big topic on the Chinese BBS forums was about six Harbin police officers who beat a 22-year-old university student to death and his body was left overnight on the street for everyone to see. There has been new information:

Video on Sina (Update: no longer available).

3:05 – 6:05: Surveillance video of the quarrel and fight inside and outside of the nightclub.

Chinese news media in Heilongjiang report that the deceased Harbin university student and his friends started the fight with the six police officers outside the nightclub because of a parking space. Surveillance video shows the deceased, Lin Songling, chasing the police, hitting him, and also attacking the police with a brick.

Comments on Youku (has been deleted):

The police already were already being very restrained. Whoever meets this kind of thing cannot blindly hold back. Allowing ordinary people to beat the police and the police not hitting back is not a sign of society’s progress. If in this matter the person who lost their life was a police man, what would everyone then say? Say that our police are incapable? Say that our lives are not safe under the protection of these police? Right?

If it was like this, then he deserved to be beaten, but no matter how arrogant or insensible, it is still a person’s life! You guys should have not hit him so hard, ai! Is it worth exchanging the futures of six people for one person’s life? But if there was someone on the street holding a brick chasing me, hitting me, I also would definitely hit back!

Only after watching the video recording do I realize that the deceased was no one good! If he did not continuously charge at the other party, the tragedy would definitely not have happened!

This NB‘s death is not worthy of sympathy. Too arrogant.

New comments on Mop:

It does not matter what kind of person the deceased is. There is no justification for law enforcers to beat a person to death. Sad law enforcers.

Northeasterners seem to like fights, awhile ago it was beating Wuhan bus drivers, now beating university students!~~~
No matter what the reason, even children know this is wrong, this is extremely bad behavior. Please, Northeasterners, for the common harmony, do not fight!!!

Hehe, I knew Mop would not disappoint me. I got to see many pictures from the scene of the crime. Not bad.
I will also say a few things:

  1. The person who was beaten to death absolutely is not good person, sooner or later will be someone who be a scourge on society.
  2. The police have gotten used to their air of authority, meeting a 20+ year old reckless youth asking for trouble. After drinking, they cannot control themselves.
  3. Give many parents a realization: Do not spoil you own children just because you have money, society is too messy. You give a grown son who does not like to study that much money and let him run wild, sooner or later something will happen.
  4. Give many dandies [rich men who do nothing] a reminder: “there are always other mountains” [there are always other people who are just as good or better than you], if you have money, you should remain low-key.
  5. Give many police a reminder: Always be aware of your position. Sometimes when you meet some insensible young people, just be patient and it will pass. Why bother? Those six police officers now must really regret what happened. No matter how justified they were, there is no justification now.

A good death. Not only did he end his own reckless cheap life,  he also exposed the lawless police in the law enforcement department.

There is no need to understand the truth. Those who beat someone to death were the police. Even if this punk yelled at them, they should no thave beaten him to death, right? Wuhan public transportation at most only get beaten, this is beating to death, it s fundamentally not the same. Today’s police are excessively “niu“, do you still think they are public servants? Instead of trying to hide like he should have, he had to go cause trouble…sigh pitiful.

Why did those classmates not call the police, not call 110 [the police emergency number], not beg these six people? If they were not police, then were they black society? Did no one call the police? Today’s classmates really are inferior to the friendship between classmates in the 80s.

You cannot say that a person who died deserved it. But the deceased definitely was not a good person.
Both sides have responsibility. Right now the cause of death is unknown. The police often hit people, but they should be able to control themselves. I feel that simply hitting someone should not result in death, and the deceased should have had some sort of health problem.

Yang Jia
Come back!!!

Everyone should make their own judgments, and see with their own eyes this video recording before saying anything.  Do not be incited by the essay’s title.
Judge what happened! Use your own eyes! Your own brain! Do not be incited by others!

He deserved to be beaten to death…
TMD, that “zhuang bi” dead person…
Hitting other people with bricks…

Because those police know the law, they were already quite restrained~even after continued attacks they did not retaliate~
Later the dead victim even used a brick to bash that police man’s head~if at this time the police did not retaliate, today’s news topic would be “One university student beat to death six police.”
Everyone examine their conscience~if at the time you were that police man~would you be more restrained than him?? I believe that most people, upon being beat in the head with a brick~would have done something much earlier.
The person who died absolutely deserved it~the police were legitimately defending themselves and the public (or at most used excessive force while defending.)

This is an update. See the original post about this news:

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  • Rick in China

    The kid died. Phrasing it as “beating to death” is an assumption that it was due to the beating and only the beating that he died – as opposed to the fact he was probably high on something and his heart could have exploded in his chest, who knows. Looking at his corpse he doesn’t look bruised – if I smashed him in the face, or even the chest, or the arm, you’d certainly see a big dark spot – me and my friends play around at clubs smackin eachother around and we leave welts on eachother for weeks visible when we go to the gym “What is that from?” “ah nothing..just me and my friends messin around” – BEAT TO DEATH? I am not so convinced.

    Maybe he was smacked down and hit his head. Maybe he was pushed and fell and broke his neck. Maybe he was punched once or twice and a [lucky?] hit just happened to break his obviously scrawny feeble body. Beat to death? I am not so convinced.

    The loss of life is unfortunate – for his parents – but I would also be inclined to say his parents weren’t so lucky to have a kid such as this who abuses the fortunate situation he was put in, given opportunities to go to university and get gifts like [a benz? fuck] at such a young, undeserving age. He’s the epitome of a wasted young life. To have pity or compassion for this kind of loser is a shame. To have pity for his family or anyone who is not associated with the incident he catalyzed is appropriate.

  • Max

    Blamed on his parents for his upbringing. A responsible person will not go around fighting especially with the police…. so its unfortunate for him to die but who else to blame… the police or his parents…

    The 1 child policy again proof that parents are failing to bring up their child in a responsible way…. acceptable to society

  • Veer Left

    Yes,yes…you can blame it on his parents, you can blame it on him, but the fact is that 6 guys beat down 1 guy. The 1 guy died. They were POLICE.
    POLICE are supposed to ave the calmness and the restraint and ABILITY to detain one skinny little kid. This is pathetic.

  • Rick in China

    @Veer
    Doesn’t look like 6 beat down 1 to me. Looks like group vs. group and when the cop chased the kid around the bend and laid into him the others were fuckin around with his equally stupid friends. Did you watch the video? And you still feel this way? Amazing.

  • Ark

    It is clear that the video did not capture when the kid got terminated, and who were directly responsible for it….and that’s why the conclusion is pending investigation.

  • Max

    Friend, look at the video, looks like he started the fight, it doesn’t look like 6 vs 1 but rather himself against the 6 polices. Beside, he is the one that carry the brick and attacked the police first… in america or other countries, the police have right to shoot and kill

  • Shanghainess

    @Veer

    How the hell do you know the dead man was killed by beating?
    Do you have the proof?
    Nobody know the cause of death now, how do you prove your fucking words?
    BTW, bad polices are able to exist in any countries over the world, not only in CHINA!!!!!!

  • ding

    Damn thats just some scary shiat to see on video, especially point where the guy runs around the corner, wonder if that was his last run;

    + it is hard to classify it as a case of “police beating young student to death” when the fact is that he + friends in large part were instigators; it clearly sucks, and it might change things if the police held him down and beat him at some point, which I still can’t tell, but I think a more appropriate title would be “thug dies after assaulting police” -> I wonder if the kids apparently rich family are trying hard to take the group of police down now~

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  • SarahDing

    It is realy very sorry to find the boy was killed by the police .The tragic result in both sides.It’s said that the student fought first and the 6 polices just protected themselves.No matter what the boy did to the police,the 6 polices shouldn’t hit him to death,because thay are public services for the people in Cina.And there is another qustion that the quality of some university student is really very low.Whater it is a tragid I feel very sorry for happening this incident in China .

  • bob

    the dude was lookin’ for trouble. I mean he is a total stick…And it’s not certain that he was killed by the policemen. I heard he had some congenital heart problems; dropped dead in the middle of all the excitement…

  • Gaoshan

    All of this over a parking space. Such a shame.

  • Ann

    What is so shocking is that so many people condoned the police beating to death one lone young man. This young man has not been convicted of anything yet, but he has been given a death sentence by the police on the spot. In other countries, police use non-lethal means to subdue a person who resists arrest. There is the pepper spray or taser or rubber bullet, that stops a violent offender but not kill. The police here are the lawless criminals or the society is the lawless society where a drunk brawl turned deadly by the six police.

    Then, this young man did not even receive any medical care but left to die in the street with being accorded any dignity. His body was treated worse than road kill. What sort of society would tolerate this?

  • http://ianstalter.wordpress.com Ian

    Any news about the current state of the police in question?

  • Ann

    Alcohol+youth was the reason, both the for victim and the police. The police over reacted and abused power. The young man was most probably intoxicated from the party. Two opposing points collided and the young man lost his life. However his behavior, it is no cause for his death penalty on the spot without a judge and jury. Some netizens approve vigilanteism and acted as judge in approving the death penalty. What shame! Chinese live is cheaper than road kills.

  • Mooo

    Ah yes, there’s always someone taking a tragic event and using it to attack society in general. Never gets old watching how creative people can get.

  • Diabloer

    it seemed that there was no blood at the scene.. weird

  • Derrick

    i>

    @Veer

    How the hell do you know the dead man was killed by beating?
    Do you have the proof?
    Nobody know the cause of death now, how do you prove your fucking words?
    BTW, bad polices are able to exist in any countries over the world, not only in CHINA!!!!!!

    Gotta love how defensive you are. No one even said anything about the state of Chinese society. Way to go.

    @ Kai:

    I’ve been trying to post but my comments have been marked as spam. Argh.

  • Max

    Why are everyone so certain that the police killed him? From the video evidences, it only show him running away and chased by 2 men.. did you look at the picture of him lying on the ground, there is no blood or bruises on face and body? (well, at least viewed from that 1 picture)… anyway, he started the fight first.. it is unfortunate he died at such a young age

  • Veer Left

    Shanghainess,
    How do I know this, how do I know that… 6 police left a kid dead in the street. POLICE are held to a higher standard of behavior and responsibility than average citizens.

    Bob, the kid was being an asshole, no doubt. And in a regular dispute I’d say he went looking for problems, but these are POLICE.
    Heart problems? oh my, I wonder where you heard that. There is more evidence to suggest that he had mental problems.

    Rick, I saw the tape and I have been in a few parallel situations before. The brick grabbing is standard practice for pussies around here. BIG F’n deal. At least he didn’t bring a sword and a bunch of buddies with metal pipes (ask me about that). I guess the question is whether or not POLICE are expected to behave like POLICE or regular people?

  • Rick in China

    @Ann RE: “In other countries, police use non-lethal means to subdue a person who resists arrest.”

    Are you HIGH?

    England: http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/23/world/fg-britbombs23
    USA: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_/ai_n14549990
    Italy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7089485.stm

    Just 3 random searches and random selections, it happens all the time all over the world in EVERY country, whether reported or not. Your soap box arrogance is astounding. “in MY country”…pfft.

  • dave

    Yes, bad police do kill people in other countries. In some countries there is an attempt to hide most of these events from the public. Some countries have a bad reputation for this. So I think people tend to speak out against groups and governments that historically practice this type of action, even if they are not citizens of that group or nation.

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  • hellohello

    We can be confident that there will be:

    1. Autopsy to determine the cause of death.

    2. Proper independent investigation by a impartial investigation team.

    3. Nobody held to be above the law or immune from investigation or justice.

    4. On first sight the facts are that an individual has died as a result of a fight.

    5. Was he killed a result of self defence, or an incident that moved from self defence to a revenge beating which resulted in a death.

    6. Off duty police officers have no right to extra powers or rights when they are off duty – none.

  • Haha

    What kind of sensational title is this? And what proof is there that this is the case? “His body was left overnight on the street for everyone to see.” Who the hell can make that claim? Are you sure the police know that he is dead when he died, not just passed out. Where is the beat to death part? Don’t jump to conclusions. I am pretty sure if the police were normal civilians that this would qualify as self-defense and everyone would side with the 6. Yeah they don’t have extra powers off duty, so they also don’t have to restrain themselves when off duty. This is just an accident. I am sure they are not criminals violent and outrageous enough to kill and leave the body in the streets when they were restraining so much in the beginning.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Haha:

    1. Reading over what happened, his body WAS left out on the streets and many people passing by definitely DID see.

    2. You’re criticizing the “sensationalist” title in the wrong post. Go to the previous one: Six Harbin Police Beat To Death University Student

    3. Early reports did seem to suggest the student was beaten to death, not least of which were witness reports of what the officers said while beating him. People reported that the police beat him and surprise, he was found dead. It is not that difficult to think “shit, they beat him to death.” Relax. It is the nature of news to yield new developments that sometimes contradict earlier reports. Be logical.

    4. Police, on-duty or off-duty, are understandably held to a higher standard by their peers. To deny that is to be unrealistic.

    5. Yes, it is an unfortunate accident that could have been avoided at many points, but didn’t. Now, people have to face the consequences and, ideally, do so according to rule of law.

    6. Calm people can become enraged and end up doing terrible, senseless things they wouldn’t do when calm. That the police tried to avoid a fight is good, but the end result is still that they allowed themselves to be provoked into retaliating (maybe in self-defense or maybe they got fed up, whatever) and now someone is dead.

    What I’m also hearing is that the father of the kid is some pretty well-connected guy and apparently hasn’t shown his face yet so far. People are basically saying the six police officers are royally fucked if the father is indeed badass and is now keen on “revenge.” Also, apparently the police did not surrender themselves but were rather “found and arrested.” Some say this suggests the six police realized who they killed (or who died while in their unfortunate presence) is indeed connected to someone they have reason to be afraid of.

    Some of this may just be internet speculation, but still worthy of noting.

  • Haha

    @Kai
    I wasn’t arguing about the beating to death part as sensationalist. I was saying the “his body was left overnight on the street for everyone to see” is sensationalist. It sounds like the Chinese police works so completely outside of the law that they can just kill someone and leave his body in the street to demonstrate their power and to warn people not to mess with them or something. So are we in agreement that China is not so lawless that police can kill whoever they want and thinking there would be no dire consequences? If so, why did they just left his body there if they knew that he was dead and intended to beat him to death (assuming that there was beating was the cause of death)? Shouldn’t they at least attempt to make it less obvious that they killed him? The obvious thing is that they did not know that he died when so they just left him there after a beating, thinking that he just got knocked unconscious. (The student’s death could have happened either immediately or he could have really been unconscious but was died of exposure in the cold night or heart problems)

    The police being ignorant of the student’s death also explained why they did not turn themselves in better than the fear of connections argument. You don’t have to assume that the student have connections, which is purely speculative.

    Also, I don’t agree with your “police should be held to a higher standard…off duty” argument. When they are on duty, they definitely should just pin him down and arrest him. But when they are off duty, they are civilians. They have no power, nor do they have any responsibility. Isn’t that how it is in other countries?

    Good thing there was some footage, or else in no way can people believe the police. Isn’t it the people’s fault for jumping to conclusions? I mean if this kind of thing happens so often that it become normal to assume that police killed the guy, then fine. But have you or most people on the internet ever experience or heard of police abusing their power so blatantly? I think it’s just a false stereotype that people have. This is just like the people on the internet, who most likely never interacted with police, support Yang Jia, acting like the guys is revenging for them.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Haha:

    1. You DID write “what kind of sensationalist title is this,” right?

    2. I don’t think I ever made the argument that police in China are so lawless that they can do whatever without consequences. You’re misdirecting your resentment.

    3. Anyone who initially or continues to believe the police intentionally left his body there clearly harbors a disenchanted skepticism of some police, and are willing to believe that some police are indeed so blatantly “above the law.” Note that I said “some” and keep in mind that you should be more concerned with why so many people are willing to think that. As I’ve said before, it would seem to imply that some police have lost the trust of the people they are meant to protect. Either they are not doing their jobs well enough or they have bad PR. Take your pick but try not to plant your head into the ground railing against a well-known image problem.

    4. You’re upset with people who made the assumption that the police were cocky enough to beat him to death and not care about hiding evidence. Instead of being upset with people, you should be upset with why that assumption is so easily made. Ask yourself why so many people would rather assume they were cocky enough to do such a horrible thing instead of assuming that the police, like most normal people, would have tried to cover-up their involvement as you feel is so “obvious.” As I said, you may be misdirecting your anger.

    5. You still haven’t acknowledge that initial reports lent themselves to people quite understandably blaming the police. If the police hollered out what witnesses said they did, that’s some pretty weighty circumstantial evidence. It not only implied intent, it also implied that they were not afraid of the consequences of killing the kid. Are you going to acknowledge that or not?

    6. Even if you do, I am certainly not insisting that they did beat him to death. You may need to go back and review the record of what I’ve written before inappropriately getting on my case. I am only pointing out to you that you’re getting upset at the wrong people about the wrong things. I fully warrant that he could’ve died because of other reasons.

    7. I was relaying what the internet was speculating. Last time I checked, this website was about what the internet talks about, right? Did you know that some people are saying they burned 100,000 RMB at the scene of the crime for the victim? I’m sure the rumor mill can get into high gear but isn’t that a worthy mechanism to investigate as well? Didn’t I mention the police might need to improve their PR?

    8. No, in other countries, police and military are often held to higher standards in such cases. For example, police and military are often considered in courts of law to possess knowledge or skill that is far more dangerous than what an ordinary civilian is expected to possess. You don’t need to know law to understand that. Some common sense would suffice. Hell, you can even just go watch Con-Air, though I don’t base my certainty in that notion on such nor would I recommend you to do so. Bottom line, not only are they often held to a higher standard (whether by law or by public opinion), there is absolutely nothing illogical, immoral, or unreasonable about doing so. I fully expect members of the police to have a more lawful mindset than non-police. Respect of the law and appropriate force should NOT be something a police officer can turn off and on at will depending on when he punches his time card. I seriously hope you are not suggesting that but it sounds like you are.

    9. Is it the people’s fault for jumping to conclusions? Given how the details of the incident came out, no. Are you daft? Are you literally incapable of UNDERSTANDING how the chain of events unfolded and how public opinion changed as they did?

    10. You said it is fine if that kind of thing happens so often that people think it is normal. So now you have half the equation. You KNOW that people readily accepted and believed that the police could do such a thing. You ALSO know that Yang Jia is something of a folk hero for most. You already have two very black and white cases for public skepticism and distrust of police in China. Are you going to ask more well-directed questions as to why this is the case or are you going to sit there and insist that there is something wrong with all these people’s perceptions? Isn’t this why I have now repeatedly admonished you to consider that the police either do their job better to earn the trust of the people or to invest in an effective PR campaign so the people will still trust them regardless of what they do?

    Did you stop and notice that, in your dismissal of popular sympathy for Yang Jia, you were making an assumption about assumptions? This is a critical problem in China, people like you who prefer to deny, dismiss, and ignore obvious problems instead of honestly reflecting upon them to deal with them appropriately. I tried to engage you in a rational discussion in my previous comment. Your response belies a certain intellectual dishonesty. I’m not sure I’m going to continue responding to you until you have the decency and respect to first understand what my position is and second direct your anger appropriately. You can do better than this. If you’re Chinese, I really hope you to do better than this because I share the same face and blood as you.

  • Veer Left

    Nobody is jumping to conclusions…
    He’s a 22 year old college student (not NBA player) …driving a Mercedes Benz.
    HE’S CONNECTED.

  • SniperWZ

    Guys, new details and testimony from the dead kid’s friends here:

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20081015_1.htm

  • Ann

    It is interesting that Li Songlin should get beaten to death away from the camera. Could it be that the six-off duty policemen are aware of the location of the camera?
    Regardless, police are trained to subdue, and not use lethal force unnecessarily. Li Songlin did not even have a knife with him. Regarless, whether he provoked or not, the six off duty policemen have the training in martial arts to know how to subdue and arrest people without resorting to beatings. Beatings of civilians is a misconduct, and a murder in this case.
    All this talk about the policemen being pushed to the point of having to defend themselves in a six to one ratio is garbage. How do you call that defense. Again policemen are trained to keep their cool and not react emotionally. Whether soliders or policemen if found to have behaved this way, would be considered having broken the law and police code of conduct. This case would have been called police attrocity, plain and simple.
    Iit is true that there is a gap in the video, one wonders why and what could be going on.

  • haha

    @kai
    Why are you…hostile? Did you misread my tone or did I actually express anger against you? I respected your reasoning in my reply. I was just arguing against them politely and I never said anything personal against you. Also, I am not as upset as you think I am. Is your personal attacks necessary? Great, now you made me kind of angry.

    My theory of why people suddenly hate the police recently is only because YangJia incident followed so closely after the Weng’an incident before all the rumors were dispelled when people are so angry at authority. So after they hear the police killing incident, they all join in unison to hate the police. Before, I had hardly ever seen that hate on the internet before YangJia. Yes, it’s people’s fault for acting and thinking like a mob and be so bent on thinking in one direction. I also blamed them for believeing rumors so much, when time after time, most of the rumors were proven false. Should they really believe in the initial posts on the internet which claimed that the police did say those stuff when they were beating him? Just like should they believe that the girl in Weng’an was gang raped and thrown into the river when it’s on the internet and nothing was confirmed? It’s fortunate that the public opinion was changed, but only because there were luckily video tapes.

    But mostly I am just completely against those who support YangJia, of which most of them never even interacted with the police and just hated them blindly. It is a kind of irrational intense group hate that the mob-like Chinese internet often generate, which could have easily targeted race and other more politically incorrect groupings. For example, the one against the French and Carrefour. You were completely against that, right? Why aren’t you completely against the hate against the police? And this hate is a hundred times more intense and worse, since it supported indiscriminate killings against a certain group.

    Should it really be a PR problem when so many people hate a certain group? So does it mean that hate against Blacks in America should be a PR problem for them, since they are the group with the highest crime rate? It’s even questionable that the police abuse of power is really bad statistically in China. Also, I think throwing money into PR is useless. The mob’s hate of the police will most likely calm down when they find another public enemy.

    Also, I still don’t agree with your thinking that the police should be placed under a higher standard in all circumstances. They are placed into a higher standard in the first place, because they were given privilege of power, so more power=more responsibility=higher discipline=more restraint. But when they are off-duty, all extra power are taken away, so all that higher standards shouldn’t apply anymore and they should act as civilians. This may just be a principle disagreement between us, so it’s not a big deal. I would say they should just be treated as civilians under the law.

    Ok, since you said so, why is there so much hate against police? Are there many outrageous stories about the police abuse? Isn’t it only recent or people hate police intensly for a long time now? Maybe I wasn’t around long enough to catch them. It seems like the targets of all those hate were the city management, just very short while ago.

    By the way, my intented tone above is not anger.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Haha:

    I’m “hostile” clearly because I felt you were being “hostile” also. I thought I made that clear when I said I felt you were misdirecting your anger and arguing against me on points I never advanced nor defended. Of course, this being all text-based, we may have misunderstood each other or I may have misread your tone of voice, but I did itemize my reaction to you (and my reaction to your reaction) above. That would be the first place to see where any hostility reared its head.

    There are two main issues here between our “disagreement” and, perhaps, “hostility”:

    1. issues about our tone of voice while discussing this incident.

    2. Issues about the incident, and

    Let’s agree that either your tone of voice either came off wrong or I misread your tone of voice. If you feel it was unintended, then I accept your word for it and squabbling about it is pointless.

    As for my personal attacks against you, I’m not sure what you’re referring to but I am confident they were expressions of my disappointment given the reasons I have enumerated in my comments. For example, yes, if you are Chinese, we do share the same blood and face. Just as one would be embarrassed or ashamed of a family member or friend who does something wrong, I too would feel some measure of sadness, disappointment, or frustration if you do or say something that I consider to be arguably illogical, unreasonable, disconcerting, offensive, . I trust you will not begrudge me for being human in this way.

    I hope we understand each other on the issue of our possibly misunderstood “hostility.” So let’s deal with #2, the more important issues about this incident:

    Your position appears to be that everyone who initially got angry at the p0lice are worthy of blame, and that they should all be held in contempt for not thinking the best of the police and instead thinking the worst.

    My position was to point out how understandable their reaction was, especially given how details of this incident emerged, noting how public sentiment changed as those details emerged.

    I also stated that I find it odd and unrealistic that you find popular discontent and distrust of police in China amongst Chinese people to be so surprising. You ignored the first part and argued back on the second point of public perception in your response. I then reiterated both in my following reply, expressing distaste at what I interpreted as your stubborn insistence that public distrust of police must be unfounded and all those obviously must lack actual experience with the po|ice (as with your Yang Jia example).

    a. You don’t know that these people have no had experience with the police (you’re assuming), and…

    b. It doesn’t matter. Public perception is public perception. My point that either the police better do a better job or get better PR stands. You appear to still reject this.

    Now, I’m glad you finally explained your theory of why people are anti-pol!ce, and you did so in what I felt was a less hostile manner that actually explains your surprise at how people have reacted to this incident than what you posted before.

    Now, it is my position that popular distrust of police is a result of much more than Yang Jia and and the Wengan riots.

    Consider: Why did so many people sympathize with Yang Ji@? The reasoning was not just the rumor that the police rendered him impotent, but also because many people knew that Shanghai police are particularly unsympathetic with non-locals and Yang Jia was from Beijing. Many people knew that police from anywhere tend to be discriminatory against migrant workers and such people, when apprehended, are often at the mercy of the authorities just as they are at the mercy of the realities of being a migrant far from where their hukou pins them to be.

    Consider: Why were people so readily willing to believe in police cover-ups or that rich people can get away with murder following the Wengan riots? Did such notions just randomly appear in their heads? Or have there been frustrating and consistent evidence, both large and small, that people with money and guanxi in China are too often seen differently by the law? This isn’t even just China, but in China it seems the most apparent.

    Reread my points in my previous comments. You’re not asking the right questions and you’re misdirecting your resentment. It is not the people’s problem (or fault) that they distrust the po|ice. It is the police’s problem. Don’t get it backwards.

    Your comparison of Carrefour with the police is completely inaccurate and inappropriate.

    Someone in France struggled with Jinjing.
    Carrefour is from France.
    Let’s boycott Carrefour because they are French.

    DOES NOT EQUAL

    There are many stories/reports/evidence.
    They tell of police abusing power/being above the law.
    As a result, many people often distrust the police.

    The first is guilt by association, and by at least two-degrees of separation at that (French pro-T!b3t activist – French – French company). The second is not. The second is a reputation problem. If the stories/reports/evidence are not true, then the p0lice would be wise to use PR to counter them. If they are true, then the police should seek to reduce the incidences of such negative news about them. (whether officially sanctioned or propagated by the people)

    Do this make sense to you yet?

    Next, I can easily argue against the Carrefour boycott for being illogical (but understandable) AND still argue for why popular discontent/distrust of the police is wholly understandable.

    Are you going to disagree?

    That I think it is understandable and even reasonable that many people distrust or are unsympathetic with the police given a history of questionable behavior (not just Yang J!a or Wengan) DOES NOT mean I support/advocate/defend internet mob mentality or indiscriminate hatred against people/groups.

    Why would you even go out on a limb to try to make that insinuation? It is one thing to acknowledge and recognize a veritable phenomenon and another to support blind hatred. You’re stretching and if you seriously think that’s my position, I do take offense and you deserve more hostility.

    Hate against blacks in America IS a PR problem for many. Why do you think Cosby publicly criticized certain other black people and black youth? It isn’t what “should,” it is “what is.” Be aware of that.

    Given that statistics are woefully inaccurate or not even compiled in China means we’ll have a hard time ascertaining just how bad police abuse of power really is. Even if the government released figures, you’ll just be unhappy the moment people question them if they seem rosier than they imagined. So, yes, that PR problem applies to the government also, not just the pol!ce. I hope I’m not shocking you here.

    I do NOT think throwing money into PR is useless, but I DO think it would be better to throw money into training members of the p0lice to be better citizens of China. That way, over time, their fellow citizens may be able to take pride in them and have more faith in them, instead of distrusting them. Take a look at the post here about the Nanjing traffic officer. Doesn’t it bother you that most people think he is a rarity and thus worthy of being commended? That’s your PR problem right there.

    The public enemy of the day on the internet may be dictated by the event of the day but just because focus changes doesn’t mean the sentiments behind them go away. If they did, shouldn’t everyone have forgotten and thus forgiven the p0lice after the big news changed from Yang Jia to something else? Or from Wengan to something else? That those same old sentiments of distrust return is evidence that it they stick around for a reason. That you seem to think otherwise is baffling.

    Or, maybe it is as you say, that you’re just ignorant of it all because you never heard of it before. That’s fine. If you really doubt me and want to somehow prove to everyone who distrusts the police that they’re wrong, you’re welcome to wage a PR campaign on behalf of the police.

    1. Start by doing some research into the topic. You can start with all the translated comments on chinaSMACK in the relevant posts.

    2. Then, you can click to the original sources and read more comments there.

    3. You can even post there to ask them why they feel that way, soliciting anecdotes, evidence, justification. If you’re serious about figuring it out, I suggest you ask, inquire, research, and think before accusing people of being somehow wrong for how their feel.

    4. Go on Google or Baidu and type in the relevant keywords.

    5. Go out on the streets and interview everyday people, try to do a reasonable statistical sample since the government won’t do it for you.

    6. Walk into a police station and interview a police officer for their thoughts. Ask them if they acknowledge the police having an unfortunate image problem in Chinese society. Ask them how why they think it exists and what they feel they’re doing about it.

    All of that beats just categorically dismissing the very evidence before your eyes that the phenomenon exists and the very obvious conclusion that all of it must come from somewhere. Your honest research will either show you that there are very understandable reasons for widespread and long-standing distrust of the pol!ce OR it will show you that all those Chinese people are wrong and something needs to be done to correct their mistake sentiments.

    Whatever it is, my point is that you recognize it and acknowledge it, and if you disagree with it, you have to do something more worthwhile than just insisting that it is wrong. Hence, my suggestion that police do a better job or invest in PR. Do you understand?

    Finally, you’re free to disagree with me on the issue of holding police to a higher standard even when off duty. I frankly find your rationalization to be illogical and disturbingly inhuman but hey, that’s just my opinion.

    I already explained the concept that people in power or influence cannot just turn it off just as celebrities cannot turn off public attention just because they want to. I’m fine with a pol!ce officer watching porn in the privacy of his own home while off duty. I am not fine with a p0lice officer justifying that he doesn’t have to use his training to exercise appropriate force when physically fighting with other people when off duty. If he is going to be a police officer in my community, I would want him to have a solid belief in maintaining order and protecting civilians from both themselves and from the police.

    If you don’t agree with me on this, there’s nothing for us to talk about. We’ll just have to disagree.

  • Veer Left

    NEWS! Extra extra read all about it!!! KAI presents gigantic rebuttal and HAHA has anurism!

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Veer Left:

    LoL. You know you love it. ;) Cheers.

  • Haha

    Lol, you just took internet debate to a new level. I will reply later as this will take a long time simply to read. Don’t take everything so seriously.

  • Haha

    Why can’t we be discussing in more Fool’s Mountain style, where there is actually respect for each other while disagreeing. Please, point out the place where I was being hostile, other than simply disagreeing with you. Maybe you argued so much on the internet that all China defensive posts are seen as nationalist ramblings.
    So we are both Chinese, not a big deal. My beef is with you saying that I can not think logically and comprehend simple ideas while not entirely understanding my points. How can anyone not take that offensively? But as you say, it’s pointless to continue arguing about it.
    “My position was to point out how understandable their reaction was, especially given how details of this incident emerged, noting how public sentiment changed as those details emerged.” I didn’t ignore this point. My response was their reactions were only based on an internet post and they relied on it again, despite previous experience of rumor spreading posts. I also said “but mostly I am just completely against those who support Yang Jia”. I meant that my main beef is with the attitude of hating the police in general in China (which had gone so far as to support massacre of police). I do not have much problems with the reaction against this particular incident, but I am just expressing my distaste of the hate of police which what I think is unjustified, particularly through Yang Jia incident. And it’s also not directed at Chinese people and China only, rather taking on the general liberal attitude of hating police when those hate are often excess and not warranted, although I have to tell you that I simply respect police deeply, mainly from my relatives being of that profession. It’s a dangerous, under-appreciated job and any mistake can easily pin them as the evil oppressor of the people. Also, I noted the change in sentiment and agreed with many of this new sentiment. But I also said in my last reply that the police was lucky that they had proof. What if they don’t have surveillance camera? Nothing in the world can allow them to give their own perspectives if everyone has so much bias against the police already.
    “You don’t know that these people have no had experience with the police (you’re assuming), and… From my experiences of not seeing public anger on the internet against the police prior to Yang Jia incident, I deduce that the police are just now a quick public anger punching bag and people are acting mob-like again and thinking that the police are really that bad since everyone seems to hate them. Where did all the public hate suddenly come from if they were legitimate, rational and independently reached consensus that police are all bad? Didn’t all that irrational hate against Korea and Koreans come up in a similar strong and sudden nature, after the torch relay? I suggest it’s the same mob mentality.
    “It doesn’t matter. Public perception is public perception. My point that either the police better do a better job or get better PR stands…… It is not the people’s problem (or fault) that they distrust the police. It is the police’s problem. Don’t get it backwards.” I think we have a basic disagreement on public relations. Just being public perception doesn’t justify itself. People are responsible to change their perceptions if they are wrong. If the public perception is prejudiced, the fault is on the public for having that prejudice, not on police not doing enough PR. The burden of proof is not on the police or some other wrongly stereotyped group. The Chinese online users shouldn’t be so mob like and be so easily biased in the first place. But the premise is, the public’s perception is wrong, and the police are not as corrupt and lawless as people think they are. This is one of the main points I disagree with modern politics. Everything is about how you justified it and public perception. So the ones with the loudest and the most persuasive voice gets power, and not the ones who does a good job as reviewed by peers, who can see clearly the pros and cons of policies and see if the policy is good in the end.
    “” I disagree with your perception that people already deeply resented Shanghai police before Yang Jia. In fact, I saw plenty of threads from self-claimed Shanghai locals on the internet expressing surprise at the anger against their police and defending their police as being very well disciplined and just. This also shows that the actual locals are not the ones to hate Shanghai police but those who never interacted and never experienced with the Shanghai police. This also helps my point that the ones that are most angry are most likely the ones who had the least experience and they are only basing their judgment on what they heard (racism works this way too), but I do not deny there are some that are unsatisfied with police service on the internet. Also, you are living Shanghai right? Any personal experience with the police? “Shanghai police are particularly unsympathetic with non-locals and Yang Jia was from Beijing.” I do not know where you get this as a major complaint. Shanghai police and urban populace in general are unsympathetic to people from countryside or migrant workers. But Yang Jia was from the big city Beijing. Everybody treats locals better than non-locals, but not with the difference of “uncultured” countryside poor vs. well-to-do urban middle and upper class. Also I had to defend the hukou system which prevented an urbanization disaster. Maybe it’s discriminatory, but the law is clear and justified. Cities simply can not accommodate 60% or more of the Chinese population getting urbanized within a few decades. It will just make everyone’s lives worse and those who move from countryside to city will only live in squalors around the city center with horrible sanitation and poverty all around (look to India for an example). The police are just doing their jobs anyways.
    “” That is true. Those things do happen. But people are thinking that it happens way more than it actually does. Remember those people calling on that rape victim to contact the black society to solve the crime. Those people are delusional. How many of those talking on the internet are insiders who actually experience or exploiting the guanxi system? How would those left out know much about it? Corruption is very rampant, but the law system is not so bad as for someone to get with murder with simply bribery.
    “Your comparison of Carrefour with the police is completely inaccurate and inappropriate.” Let me “slightly” modify your comparison. :)
    The whole route in France plagued with anti-China protests.
    Someone attacked a crippled Chinese torch bearer
    Carrefour is accused of supporting Tibetan independence movement.
    Let’s boycott Carrefour.
    PRETTY MUCH EQUALS
    General corruption in Chinese society.
    Netizens feel that some people are abusing power and they are left out.
    Some stories of bad examples of police behavior.
    Support of merciless indiscriminate massacre of normal police officers who most likely never did anything wrong in their life.
    Lol, you see these things one way; I see them another. The comparison is not a main point. Let’s just leave it at that.
    That I think it is understandable and even reasonable that many people distrust or are unsympathetic with the police given a history of questionable behavior (not just Yang J!a or Wengan) DOES NOT mean I support/advocate/defend internet mob mentality or indiscriminate hatred against people/groups. There is not such a history and it’s not simply distrust. When you distrust a group, you don’t support indiscriminate killings of them. The recent, sudden, intense, uniformed hate against the police is a mob mentality, as I asserted above. I also did not claim that you support/advocate/defend mob mentality/indiscriminate hatred, but that you didn’t denounce the undeserved hatred that the police get that supported killings of them, as much as you denounce the protests against Carrefour. I am sorry that I was unclear and offended you.
    “Hate against blacks in America IS a PR problem for many. Why do you think Cosby publicly criticized certain other black people and black youth? It isn’t what ‘should,’ it is ‘what is’.” But many people disagreed that it’s a PR problem for the black race. Also, it should be a mutual change. One should improve image and one should change their bias. But mostly I am hearing on Chinese internet saying, “kill all police” or “go reflect on why so many people hate you”. The last one is complete blasphemy. It is not only undeserved and just a mob mentality, but also the internet mobs seem to justify their hate simply by the fact that it’s the majority. In addition, the internet mobs never reflect on themselves and will always continue their bias.
    The public enemy of the day on the internet may be dictated by the event of the day but just because focus changes doesn’t mean the sentiments behind them go away. If they did, shouldn’t everyone have forgotten and thus forgiven the p0lice after the big news changed from Yang Jia to something else? Or from Wengan to something else? That those same old sentiments of distrust return is evidence that it they stick around for a reason. That you seem to think otherwise is baffling.
    “Or, maybe it is as you say, that you’re just ignorant of it all because you never heard of it before. That’s fine. If you really doubt me and want to somehow prove to everyone who distrusts the police that they’re wrong, you’re welcome to wage a PR campaign on behalf of the police.” I was being modest. Of course, I heard of stories of Chinese police abusing their power. But they are in the minority and do not nearly warrant so much hate as to celebrate the indiscriminate massacre of police officers. I never witnessed that much dissatisfaction on the internet before Weng’an or Yang Jia time.
    “Finally, you’re free to disagree with me on the issue of holding police to a higher standard even when off duty. I frankly find your rationalization to be illogical and disturbingly inhuman but hey, that’s just my opinion…”My rationalization is the reasoning behind the higher standard, which I hope to bring out to help this moral issue. My argument may not be politically correct, but they don’t base on common sense and general moral sense which are fickle. Also, people are putting too high a standard on the police. They expect the police to not retaliate and act calm even when they are hit in the head with a brick. Well, first do you disagree with the police at least beating the guy? The dying part is excessive, but it’s purely unintentional and can only be qualify as excessive self-defense and retaliation. Also, unless I am mistaken, in developed countries, police are not treated legally with a harsher law code when they are off-duty.

    Wow I got carried away. Maybe I should have taken my own advice on the seriousness of internet debates. lol.

  • Haha

    Wow the spacing didn’t work. I will post it again.

  • Derrick

    Haha:

    Please don’t. It’s bad enough that you can’t express ideas in short, clear sentences.

    Once you get started Kai would feel compelled to weigh in and this page will never finish loading.

  • Haha

    Why can’t we be discussing in more Fool’s Mountain style, where there is actually respect for each other while disagreeing. Please, point out the place where I was being hostile, other than simply disagreeing with you. Maybe you argued so much on the internet that all China defensive posts are seen as nationalist ramblings.

    So we are both Chinese, not a big deal. My beef is with you saying that I can not think logically and comprehend simple ideas while not entirely understanding my points. How can anyone not take that offensively? But as you say, it’s pointless to continue arguing about it.

    “My position was to point out how understandable their reaction was, especially given how details of this incident emerged, noting how public sentiment changed as those details emerged.”

    I didn’t ignore this point. My response was their reactions were only based on an internet post and they relied on it again, despite previous experience of rumor spreading posts. I also said “but mostly I am just completely against those who support Yang Jia”. I meant that my main beef is with the attitude of hating the police in general in China (which had gone so far as to support massacre of police). I do not have much problems with the reaction against this particular incident, but I am just expressing my distaste of the hate of police which what I think is unjustified, particularly through Yang Jia incident. And it’s also not directed at Chinese people and China only, rather taking on the general liberal attitude of hating police when those hate are often excess and not warranted, although I have to tell you that I simply respect police deeply, mainly from my relatives being of that profession. It’s a dangerous, under-appreciated job and any mistake can easily pin them as the evil oppressor of the people. Also, I noted the change in sentiment and agreed with many of this new sentiment. But I also said in my last reply that the police was lucky that they had proof. What if they don’t have surveillance camera? Nothing in the world can allow them to give their own perspectives if everyone has so much bias against the police already.

    “You don’t know that these people have no had experience with the police (you’re assuming), and…”

    From my experiences of not seeing public anger on the internet against the police prior to Yang Jia incident, I deduce that the police are just now a quick public anger punching bag and people are acting mob-like again and thinking that the police are really that bad since everyone seems to hate them. Where did all the public hate suddenly come from if they were legitimate, rational and independently reached consensus that police are all bad? Didn’t all that irrational hate against Korea and Koreans come up in a similar strong and sudden nature, after the torch relay? I suggest it’s the same mob mentality.

    “It doesn’t matter. Public perception is public perception. My point that either the police better do a better job or get better PR stands…… It is not the people’s problem (or fault) that they distrust the police. It is the police’s problem. Don’t get it backwards.”

    I think we have a basic disagreement on public relations. Just being public perception doesn’t justify itself. People are responsible to change their perceptions if they are wrong. If the public perception is prejudiced, the fault is on the public for having that prejudice, not on police not doing enough PR. The burden of proof is not on the police or some other wrongly stereotyped group. The Chinese online users shouldn’t be so mob like and be so easily biased in the first place. But the premise is, the public’s perception is wrong, and the police are not as corrupt and lawless as people think they are. This is one of the main points I disagree with modern politics. Everything is about how you justified it and public perception. So the ones with the loudest and the most persuasive voice gets power, and not the ones who does a good job as reviewed by peers, who can see clearly the pros and cons of policies and see if the policy is good in the end.

    “” I disagree with your perception that people already deeply resented Shanghai police before Yang Jia. In fact, I saw plenty of threads from self-claimed Shanghai locals on the internet expressing surprise at the anger against their police and defending their police as being very well disciplined and just. This also shows that the actual locals are not the ones to hate Shanghai police but those who never interacted and never experienced with the Shanghai police. This also helps my point that the ones that are most angry are most likely the ones who had the least experience and they are only basing their judgment on what they heard (racism works this way too), but I do not deny there are some that are unsatisfied with police service on the internet. Also, you are living Shanghai right? Any personal experience with the police?
    “Shanghai police are particularly unsympathetic with non-locals and Yang Jia was from Beijing.”
    I do not know where you get this as a major complaint. Shanghai police and urban populace in general are unsympathetic to people from countryside or migrant workers. But Yang Jia was from the big city Beijing. Everybody treats locals better than non-locals, but not with the difference of “uncultured” countryside poor vs. well-to-do urban middle and upper class. Also I had to defend the hukou system which prevented an urbanization disaster. Maybe it’s discriminatory, but the law is clear and justified. Cities simply can not accommodate 60% or more of the Chinese population getting urbanized within a few decades. It will just make everyone’s lives worse and those who move from countryside to city will only live in squalors around the city center with horrible sanitation and poverty all around (look to India for an example). The police are just doing their jobs anyways.

    “” That is true. Those things do happen. But people are thinking that it happens way more than it actually does. Remember those people calling on that rape victim to contact the black society to solve the crime. Those people are delusional. How many of those talking on the internet are insiders who actually experience or exploiting the guanxi system? How would those left out know much about it? Corruption is very rampant, but the law system is not so bad as for someone to get with murder with simply bribery.

    “Your comparison of Carrefour with the police is completely inaccurate and inappropriate.” Let me “slightly” modify your comparison. :)

    The whole route in France plagued with anti-China protests.
    Someone attacked a crippled Chinese torch bearer
    Carrefour is accused of supporting Tibetan independence movement.
    Let’s boycott Carrefour.

    PRETTY MUCH EQUALS

    General corruption in Chinese society.
    Netizens feel that some people are abusing power and they are left out.
    Some stories of bad examples of police behavior.
    Support of merciless indiscriminate massacre of normal police officers who most likely never did anything wrong in their life.

    Lol, you see these things one way; I see them another. The comparison is not a main point. Let’s just leave it at that.

    “That I think it is understandable and even reasonable that many people distrust or are unsympathetic with the police given a history of questionable behavior (not just Yang J!a or Wengan) DOES NOT mean I support/advocate/defend internet mob mentality or indiscriminate hatred against people/groups.”

    There is not such a history and it’s not simply distrust. When you distrust a group, you don’t support indiscriminate killings of them. The recent, sudden, intense, uniformed hate against the police is a mob mentality, as I asserted above. I also did not claim that you support/advocate/defend mob mentality/indiscriminate hatred, but that you didn’t denounce the undeserved hatred that the police get that supported killings of them, as much as you denounce the protests against Carrefour. I am sorry that I was unclear and offended you.

    “Hate against blacks in America IS a PR problem for many. Why do you think Cosby publicly criticized certain other black people and black youth? It isn’t what ‘should,’ it is ‘what is’.”

    But many people disagreed that it’s a PR problem for the black race. Also, it should be a mutual change. One should improve image and one should change their bias. But mostly I am hearing on Chinese internet saying, “kill all police” or “go reflect on why so many people hate you”. The last one is complete blasphemy. It is not only undeserved and just a mob mentality, but also the internet mobs seem to justify their hate simply by the fact that it’s the majority. In addition, the internet mobs never reflect on themselves and will always continue their bias.

    “The public enemy of the day on the internet may be dictated by the event of the day but just because focus changes doesn’t mean the sentiments behind them go away.”

    Against corruptions in bureaucrats and politicians, the sentiments doesn’t change. But against police, the sentiment is only temporary and even the internet mobs wouldn’t have so short a memory. However, I think police rep will turn better after this incident blows over.

    “Or, maybe it is as you say, that you’re just ignorant of it all because you never heard of it before. That’s fine. If you really doubt me and want to somehow prove to everyone who distrusts the police that they’re wrong, you’re welcome to wage a PR campaign on behalf of the police.”

    I was being modest. Of course, I heard of stories of Chinese police abusing their power. But they are in the minority and do not nearly warrant so much hate as to celebrate the indiscriminate massacre of police officers. I never witnessed that much dissatisfaction on the internet before Weng’an or Yang Jia time.

    “Finally, you’re free to disagree with me on the issue of holding police to a higher standard even when off duty. I frankly find your rationalization to be illogical and disturbingly inhuman but hey, that’s just my opinion…”

    My rationalization is the reasoning behind the higher standard, which I hope to bring out to help this moral issue. My argument may not be politically correct, but they don’t base on common sense and general moral sense which are fickle. Also, people are putting too high a standard on the police. They expect the police to not retaliate and act calm even when they are hit in the head with a brick. Well, first do you disagree with the police at least beating the guy? The dying part is excessive, but it’s purely unintentional and can only be qualify as excessive self-defense and retaliation. Also, unless I am mistaken, in developed countries, police are not treated legally with a harsher law code when they are off-duty.

    Wow I got carried away. Maybe I should have taken my own advice on the seriousness of internet debates. lol.

  • Haha

    Eugh, two quotes disappeared. Posting the section again.

    “Your consider #1” I disagree with your perception that people already deeply resented Shanghai police before Yang Jia. In fact, I saw plenty of threads from self-claimed Shanghai locals on the internet expressing surprise at the anger against their police and defending their police as being very well disciplined and just. This also shows that the actual locals are not the ones to hate Shanghai police but those who never interacted and never experienced with the Shanghai police. This also helps my point that the ones that are most angry are most likely the ones who had the least experience and they are only basing their judgment on what they heard (racism works this way too), but I do not deny there are some that are unsatisfied with police service on the internet. Also, you are living Shanghai right? Any personal experience with the police?
    “Shanghai police are particularly unsympathetic with non-locals and Yang Jia was from Beijing.”
    I do not know where you get this as a major complaint. Shanghai police and urban populace in general are unsympathetic to people from countryside or migrant workers. But Yang Jia was from the big city Beijing. Everybody treats locals better than non-locals, but not with the difference of “uncultured” countryside poor vs. well-to-do urban middle and upper class. Also I had to defend the hukou system which prevented an urbanization disaster. Maybe it’s discriminatory, but the law is clear and justified. Cities simply can not accommodate 60% or more of the Chinese population getting urbanized within a few decades. It will just make everyone’s lives worse and those who move from countryside to city will only live in squalors around the city center with horrible sanitation and poverty all around (look to India for an example). The police are just doing their jobs anyways.

    “Your consider #2” That is true. Those things do happen. But people are thinking that it happens way more than it actually does. Remember those people calling on that rape victim to contact the black society to solve the crime. Those people are delusional. How many of those talking on the internet are insiders who actually experience or exploiting the guanxi system? How would those left out know much about it? Corruption is very rampant, but the law system is not so bad as for someone to get with murder with simply bribery.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Derrick/Veer Left:

    Click Here.

    @ Haha:

    Wow…uh, welcome to the club?

    Mutual Respect

    My first comment to you was not hostile/disrespectful. It was very neutral, just a statement of facts/explanations/points. My second comment to you was more hostile because you sounded more hostile to me. I already said this and, moreover, I said that if I misunderstood/misread you, it was my mistake. That is fair of me, right?

    It is logical for you to take offense at my accusation of you not thinking logically/reasonably with regards to the public reactions in this Harbin incident. I have enumerated, explained, and reiterated my reasons why I feel your position/arguments are illogical and unreasonable. So, let us agree to disagree/discuss our differences about this passionately but respectfully. That begins with us trying to explain/justify/argue our sides, which we’re both doing. That’s our common ground, so let us respect that about each other.

    Our Differences About This Harbin Incident

    YOU: My response was their reactions were only based on an internet post and they relied on it again, despite previous experience of rumor spreading posts.

    ME: I say you are ignoring my point because my point is that their reaction is NOT only based on AN internet post. The fact that they continue to have this reaction means somewhere in their mind they weighed their predisposition of distrusting the police due to past experience/knowledge vs. the likelihood of this information being another rumor. And their predisposition won. If you acknowledged this, you would wondering why it won and not jumping to conclusions only berating the public for their distrust of the police. You’re angry about the symptom, while ignoring the cause of what you consider to be a disease. Again, do you understand?

    YOU: I am just expressing my distaste of the hate of police which what I think is unjustified, particularly through Yang Jia incident.

    ME: I have responded to you that I think distrust (but not necessarily hate) of the police is quite reasonable, maybe even justified, by what much of the Chinese public have seen/heard about the police, and even AS evidenced by the Yang Jia incident. Please note the subtle differences in our two statements.

    YOU: Nothing in the world can allow them to give their own perspectives if everyone has so much bias against the police already.

    ME: I disagree. Strong rule of law and legal procedure can. This is somewhat lacking in China. However, this is more a tangent to our disagreements on this Harbin issue. Suffice to say, our disagreement is not about the difficulties of being police, but about the logic and reasons behind public perceptions of police. Please note this very carefully because I see your arguments with me failing to heed that. I am not arguing for hate against police, I am trying to explain to you why being so surprised about public distrust of police is surprising to me. If you want to now say you are NOT surprised by the public distrusting the police given the police’s reputation amongst the public, then I will ignore what you said previously and we can be in near complete agreement with each other.

    YOU: Didn’t all that irrational hate against Korea and Koreans come up in a similar strong and sudden nature, after the torch relay? I suggest it’s the same mob mentality.

    ME: Yes, mob mentality I acknowledge and never argued otherwise. However, hate against Korea/Koreans did not originate from just the torch relay. There is a history of contention between Chinese/Koreans due to various things. Just look at the Korean Gamer Criticizing Chinese video here on chinaSMACK. Their antagonism is not irrational in of itself. In fact, is is reasonable given what each side believes of the other. The actual irrational part of it is applying it to ALL Koreans/Korea. Do you understand? The irrationality rears its head when it ventures into nationalism and racism. But are the gripes themselves unreasonable? No, not necessarily. I felt your gripes with the gripes of the Chinese public in this Harbin incident were unreasonable.

    YOU: I think we have a basic disagreement on public relations. Just being public perception doesn’t justify itself. People are responsible to change their perceptions if they are wrong. If the public perception is prejudiced, the fault is on the public for having that prejudice, not on police not doing enough PR. The burden of proof is not on the police or some other wrongly stereotyped group.

    ME: Good luck getting people to change what they have become predisposed to believe. No one is arguing about whether people are ultimately responsible for what they choose to believe. Your contention may not be philosophically wrong but we live in something called reality. In reality, PR (like marketing) serves a pragmatic purpose, which is to shape or correct other people’s perceptions. Do you suggest that the public is going to correct itself? Especially if they are often exposed to incidences of the police abusing their power or being above the law? Do you understand why I think you’re being illogical and unreasonable? Just look at what you’re demanding to happen. Do you really think the public is going to change their distrust without the police either actually improving their service to the people or engaging in PR promoting their good deeds and service to the people?

    YOU: This is one of the main points I disagree with modern politics. Everything is about how you justified it and public perception.

    ME: Uh…okay. You’re going into irrelevant territory here but I understand your frustrations that the world is not ideal and not a meritocracy. But do you understand why I think you demanding that it should be is illogical and unreasonable, ignoring reality and pragmatics?

    YOU: In fact, I saw plenty of threads from self-claimed Shanghai locals on the internet expressing surprise at the anger against their police and defending their police as being very well disciplined and just.

    ME: Okay, you’re blurring the lines here. Yang Jia can be separated into two issues: 1) People vs. Police and 2) Shanghainese vs. Non-Shanghainese. You’re mixing the two (perhaps not intentionally) to argue your point. My previous statements were largely regarding #1. If you want me to address #2, I will whole-heartedly agree that Shanghainese are quite willing to go to bat for their own kind. We’ve seen that in many posts here on chinaSMACK. However, defending your own kind or insisting that your own kind is typically better than “outsiders” is categorically separate from the issue of whether the police abuse their powers over the common people. I KNOW many Shanghainese got fed up with outsiders criticizing Shanghai police in the Yang Jia case. It was entirely understandable for them to retort with anything along the lines of “well, at least our police are better than your’s, nyah!” But this has no bearing on whether or not Shanghai police mistreat outsiders compared to locals, or whether police have a reputation for abuses of power in general because of the acts of some in their ranks.

    YOU: Also, you are living Shanghai right? Any personal experience with the police?

    ME: Yes and yes. Throughout the handling of one case, I was at times pleasantly surprised (the government keeps good records of their people, making them easy to find) but ultimately mostly disappointed (they don’t actually go pursue justice and will often try to avoid any work on their part). That said, that experience didn’t actually make me feel one way or another about the police in general (it wasn’t big enough to me), as I didn’t find the handling involved in that incident to be much different from what I would expect elsewhere. More importantly, this has nothing to do with understanding long-standing, widespread negative public perception of the police, which is our real issue of contention.

    YOU: But Yang Jia was from the big city Beijing.

    ME: You’re kidding, right? You’re not really familiar with Shanghai and the Shanghainese in general, are you? To the Shanghainese, they have begrudging respect maybe for people from Hong Kong and Taipei, but Beijing is definitely not on that list. On chinaSMACK, refer to the Olympic outfits post.

    YOU: The police are just doing their jobs anyways.

    ME: You’re confusing things again. The police are not “just” doing their jobs if they are mistreating people, even if they are non-locals and don’t have their hukou. No one distrusts the police for doing their jobs; they distrust the police for doing LESS or MORE than their job (such as preferential treatment for locals over non-locals or harsher treatment of non-locals over locals). Do you understand? You’re going all over the place, man.

    YOU: That is true. Those things do happen. But people are thinking that it happens way more than it actually does.

    ME: So, a PR campaign is in order, right? If the police don’t like how the public distrusts them, they should do something. If you don’t like it, you should do something…and you are. You’re trying to stick up for them here. The only thing is I’m not trying to attack them, I’m just trying to explain why the public has such a negative perception of them is quite understandable BECAUSE you seemed to be wholly confounded and shocked by such a phenomenon amongst the public. I’m really trying to pound this into your head so you won’t continue arguing with me about things I’m not arguing with you about.

    YOU: but the law system is not so bad as for someone to get with murder with simply bribery.

    ME: Says you. This is a broader issue largely irrelevant to our original discussion but I believe money does buy you out of many things in China’s law system, with the major counterbalance not being “justice” but “face.” Appropriate due punishment is often only enforced if there is public attention. Otherwise, if no one knows, money paves roads. The Chinese public themselves often express as much. Let’s agree to to keep this separate from what we were originally debating.

    YOU: [Carrefour/France stuff]

    ME: No, you’re wrong. Carrefour was attacked because LV was beyond the means of mos Chinese to boycott. Even then, it was only a SHAREHOLDER of LV that donated to the Dalai Lama (who is arguably not even supporting Tibetan independence). The whole episode had illogical idiocy written all over it. But again, I still understand their feelings and why they wanted to do it. I, and countless others, just agreed it wasn’t very logical. Your Chinese/police side of the equation is just utter nonsense that didn’t even remotely equal your own French/Carrefour side. What the hell are you talking about. I was explaining public distrust of the police, not public support of massacring police. You’ve misrepresented my side and are trying to argue against it. That’s a straw man fallacy. Get things straight. Even if we refocus on the Yang Jia episode, my position is that public’s misguided treatment of Yang Jia as a hero is premised upon their understandable distrust of the police. Note the “misguided” but also the “understandable distrust.” Our original disagreement was about whether the distrust is understandable. You said it is not because previous episodes have been proven to be rumors, etc. while I said it is because there are far more previous episodes that tend to support continuation of that distrust and negative public perception.

    YOU: There is not such a history and it’s not simply distrust. When you distrust a group, you don’t support indiscriminate killings of them.

    ME: Sigh, okay, we already know you don’t think there is any history to justify the widespread, long-standing negative perception of the police the public harbors. I do. We disagree on that and there’s no way to change it. I suggested you go research, you refuse or you dismiss it all, so that’s the end of the line for that. For the record, I do not write “distrust and lack of sympathy for the police” every time but it should be implied given how much I’ve already expounded on this matter. Most people were not sympathetic towards the police following the Yang Jia incident. Yes, it has become something of a internet trend and humor to support civilian retribution against police seen to be misbehaving, but I’d wager you’re being illogical and demented if you seriously think the vast majority of the Chinese public honestly and seriously supports indiscriminate killing. You are convoluting the issue and there is a strong straw man fallacy streak in your arguments.

    YOU: you didn’t denounce the undeserved hatred that the police get that supported killings of them

    ME: What? Why should I? My original comment was in response to a specific issue: you seemingly thinking it is unbelievable that the public initially demonized the six police for the death of a university student given the details they had at the time. Why would I randomly throw in any denouncement of them for hating the police/supporting the killing of police if I 1) knew that the support of killing is mostly just anger speech and 2) the public appropriately stopped demonizing the six police once more details were revealed? I was responding to you, man, not starting a PR campaign for the police.

    YOU: But mostly I am hearing on Chinese internet saying, “kill all police” or “go reflect on why so many people hate you”. The last one is complete blasphemy. It is not only undeserved and just a mob mentality, but also the internet mobs seem to justify their hate simply by the fact that it’s the majority. In addition, the internet mobs never reflect on themselves and will always continue their bias.

    ME: Your black Americans reference is missing the point but the above is more important. You’re right that the internet mobs rarely reflect on themselves. The fact is, most people don’t reflect on themselves, including the police, the government, individuals, whatever. It is natural to apply blame externally. That’s something of a philosophical fact and has nothing to do with my position or disagreement with you. Why you drag it in is confounding to me again because it is akin to you making me your straw man. Advising people to reflect on why they have a negative reputation is not “complete blasphemy.” In fact, it is statements like these that you utter that make me seriously question your logic to the point of contempt. You make that conclusion because you ASSUME it is undeserved. I do not make the same conclusion because I do not believe it is undeserved. Our premises are different. At this point, I feel it is necessary for me to point you to this link and ask you to read it well, especially the “Constructing a Logical Argument” page. Now, I won’t say I’m perfect, but I will state that I find SOME of your arguments to be really disconnected with reality, that you’ve misunderstood my positions, that you’re projecting on to me, confusing different things, and then repackaging it all to somehow argue that I’m wrong or something. I’m honestly not sure you could tell me what my position is.

    YOU: Against corruptions in bureaucrats and politicians, the sentiments doesn’t change. But against police, the sentiment is only temporary and even the internet mobs wouldn’t have so short a memory.

    ME: Okay, that’s your assumption. I can’t change it.

    YOU: Of course, I heard of stories of Chinese police abusing their power. But they are in the minority and do not nearly warrant so much hate as to celebrate the indiscriminate massacre of police officers.

    ME: Okay, I think we can all agree that police abuse of power is usually the minority of police behavior. Unfortunately, it spoils their image. You feel it doesn’t warrant so much hate, I feel it is understandable that it has. You’re casually connecting or equating “public distrust/lack of sympathy” with “hate” and then with “celebrating indiscriminate massacre” is intellectually dishonest of you. That is not a logical sequence or argument.

    YOU: I never witnessed that much dissatisfaction on the internet before Weng’an or Yang Jia time.

    ME: So, people have different experiences with how much dissatisfaction they’ve seen on the internet before Wengan and Yang Jia, what can you do about it? As an aside, I think the growing dissatisfaction on the internet is related to 1) growing internet use in China and 2) growing comfort amongst Chinese to use the internet to voice their opinions. Unlike you, I do not think “Weng an or Yang Jia” is the precursor to the current amount of dissatisfaction visible on the internet. Please read this VERY carefully.

    YOU: My argument may not be politically correct, but they don’t base on common sense and general moral sense

    ME: Actually, your argument doesn’t seem to be based on common sense or general moral sense either. But now we’re trying to define “general” moral sense, aren’t we? I think it is moral to expect individuals entrusted to represent law and order to, well, represent law and order, on or off-duty. I would hire an Accountant for his analytical mind because I witness his analytical abilities first (interview/prior work experience/etc.), not because he promises me he’ll be analytical once he’s on the clock. I expect an Accountant to still be analytical even when he is not working. A respect/adherence/faith in the rule of law is something I expect in a police officer. Maybe you don’t have these expectations and your moral compass is very different from mine. Not much I can do about that, but it explains why you argue the things you argue (though not necessarily why you’re arguing with me on things I’m not advancing).

    YOU: Well, first do you disagree with the police at least beating the guy?

    ME: Yes. I disagree with it. On one hand, I find it entirely understandable that they would eventually retaliate. I even find it admirable that they restrained themselves. What I disagree with is if they crossed the line from subduing (ideally by restraint or recourse to on-duty police) to punishment (unnecessary beating). If they beat the kid to death, I disagree with it but current developments seem to suggest he died for other reasons indirect to the beating. I disagree with the police leaving him out there. On duty, they would be required to call an ambulance. But they were off-duty, right? I would’ve hoped one of them still believed in the principles of their badge to still call for an ambulance if he remained unconscious or at least called the police to have the kid arrested for assault. But no, maybe they felt they were off-duty so they could deal with this fight as civilians. Fine, but I still disagree that it is somehow unreasonable, illogical, or morally wrong to hold police to a higher standard.

    YOU: Also, unless I am mistaken, in developed countries, police are not treated legally with a harsher law code when they are off-duty.

    ME: You are mistaken about other developed countries and I am now repeating myself. Police are legally regarded as possessing more dangerous and lethal knowledge/skill than ordinary civilians just as martial artists are. Believe it or not, fists and feet, can be considered lethal weapons. Since such knowledge does not magically vanish when they are “off duty,” the law will take this into account in determining appropriate force exercised by the off-duty police officers in this case (hopefully if rule of law is maintained). This is not just “harsher law code,” this is about the subtleties of legal procedure and definition. You’re oversimplifying and have ignored my previous explanation.

    Conclusion

    I’ve patiently responded and addressed the issues I have with your position/comments. In doing so, I’ve noticed that I am now repeating myself and we’re going in circles. You will either finally understand my position and arguments or you will not. I no longer care which. I’ve said my piece and I do not think anything I have said is illogical, unreasonable, or anything remotely close to supporting undeserved hatred or indiscriminate massacre of police. I no longer wish to discuss these matters with you specifically, not out of disrespect but because I do not think we’re making any progress towards common ground. Please consider this lengthy response to be my expression of respect to you as an individual with regards to this issue.

  • SniperWZ

    too long didn’t read, sorry.

    New details about this story here:

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200810b.brief.htm#022

  • Veer Left

    “The Chinese online users shouldn’t be so mob like and be so easily biased in the first place.”
    Hahaha…because once online they’ll change from their real life persona and suddenly become reasonable? Gimme a break. It’s not a ‘race’ (fror lack of a better word) thing…it’s a cultural/educational thing. Mobs is what they do here… where else could you be mobbed by angry citizens after getting hit by a fucking taxi whilst crossing on a green light and having the taxi driver park his car to chase you down and grapple with you?
    Group decisions is what they do here.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    Not sure if anyone caught this but here’s some new news about this incident. In short, later in the video (that was not shown to the public), the six police officers drag Lin Songling out and kick him for 5-6 minutes. Still not sure what the exact cause of death is but it seems irrefutable that the police beat the guy quite heavily (as opposed to just restraining him). Of course, this doesn’t excuse the fact that the lad instigated but a six-on-one beat down isn’t very sympathetic either. The mayor seems to be trying to handle the whole thing cleanly and fairly but we’ll have to see how this plays out.

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  • Haha

    @Kai
    Yeah, the discussion won’t go anywhere even if we continued. Whatever.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    ESWN has a great post that *cough*Haha*cough* everyone should read.

    The last I heard about this incident is that the parents were finally allowed to watch the entire recording of the incident, which showed the police kicking the kid for 5-6 minutes straight amongst other things that were edited out. Public sentiment seemed to swing back the other way again.

    This reminds me a bit of the Rodney King incident. The social ramifications will invariably be that the Chinese public again loses more trust in the police.

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