Naked Schoolgirl Video, Punishment For Stealing

Scenes from a video showing a young Chinese girl revealing her body to avoid being beaten by schoolmates angry over her thievery.

From Mop & NetEase (no longer accessible):

It has not been long since the Kaiping Incident happened, a friend of mine sent me a video, asking me to translate the dialogue inside. This video is about 9 minutes long, the schoolgirl in the video first being beaten by schoolmates, then forced to take off her clothes and filmed. What more, the reason this incident happened was all because this female student had altogether stolen things three-times from her fellow students, and those beating her and forcing her to take off her clothes are all her schoolmates, and further there are voices of many female classmate in [the video]. The several students using violence do not reveal their faces throughout the video. However, in their dialogue they disclosed that they will upload it onto the internet to let “Ma Le/Lei Lao” [unsure, maybe this is a Cantonese name] all see it. The girl says, “if I take off all my clothes, will you guys not hit me, and let me go…?”

I do not know what is wrong with these Guangdong children, and why do these horrific incidences happen so frequently? I do not want to excessively express my anger, I only want to expose/make public this incident. Everything I give to society and the law to deal with and punish

If you are a reporter/journalist, please provide me your true identification, I will send you the video. Moppers, please do not contact me, I do not want to spread the video out.

A screen capture of a video where a Cantonese girl in a school uniform is bent over after being beaten by her classmates for stealing.

Comments on Mop:

So cruel…

Today’s children~~all society’s fault!!!

What is wrong with these children? What is driving Guangdong’s developed economy?

Guangdong again!!!
Truly speechless yet again!!!

Guangdong people [Cantonese]…
What can I use to save you people…

A proverb says it well: Heaven is towards the left, Guangdong is towards the right.
This is what a Guangdong contract worker told me…

Normal, I work in Youku’s back office verification department, and I see these videos every day.
The country does not allow them to be disseminated, so they are all screened/censored.

I am not a reporter/journalist, but I like the vast masses want to see…

Do the people who want to watch the video still have integrity? I write this as someone who likes to watch AV and X-rated material.

This cannot be separated from society’s morals.
For example, our Comrade Lin.
Everything is violent.

Let me turn the page, very true, this is indeed today’s children. The larger the city, the worse it gets. Violence and sex, this is their lives after they become 16-years-old.

All the private areas were blurred/masked…
But LZ does not blur/mask the face.
Is this any different from uploading the video?
Kao,
other people also want face [care about dignity]!

You deserve it for stealing. We are beating you to teach you a lesson. Let us see if you steal again. [Not a good translation but something like this.]

I can only say that with regards to today’s girls, everyone has been deceived by external appearances. “The ‘badness’ of boys was taught by girls!” Something one of my old schoolmates used to often say…

Guangdong, that place, is a real fucking mess. Never go there. You may die and not know how you died.

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  • zombiejudas

    given the list of trackers in this torrent, it already has been shared far and wide.

    and trying to restrict torrenting is a kinda useless endeavour.

    just search on btjunkie or anywhere for: “guangdong schoolgirl”

  • zombiejudas

    addition: whoever made this torrent file, is indeed quite stupid, as it looks like someone went through a list of all possible trackers, like adding the-underdogs.info, a not-really-tracker that you cannot use at all, but forgot the seeding part of torrenting, as I am connecting to noone.

  • DuckChinSoup

    This site is so yellow! As in “I’ll give you access to this video of naked teens but you have to send me an email (for the previous video) or sign up for my RSS feed (this video) first!

    How is this any different from porn sites like pornotube.com that require an email address for you to get at the goodies?

    Either provide links to the material, or don’t. Pretending that you are performing some sort of service by asking people subscribe to your RSS feed to get at the child pornography– ask your local PSB if you think this isn’t kiddie porn, is disgusting.

    • James

      I agree with DuckChinSoup to a point

      Although you might mean well, all you succeed in doing is making her re-live her shame, humiliation

      this is the type of stuff that police would find when they catch a peadophile or something

      For although your intentions might be noble, there are sick people who get off on this stuff

      You are simply a means to an end

      means: ‘wanting’ to help
      ends: satisfying there sick pleasures

      Yes it is disgusting that people would seek to administer their own brand of ‘justice’

      which can only be described as sexual assult, sexual humiliation and rape

      Such material should not be publicised, IF you really wanted to help you would take this to a police station

      If you think there are corrupt, then surely they are good government officials or something you can turn to

      for as you put this up, and it spread

      ALTHOUGH you were trying to help, it could have ended up on pedophile websites

      So not only has that schoolgirl been humiliated, but have sick f**king disgusting people, wanking over her

      Seriously the are VERY SICK people who live in the world

      wha are just WAITING for peeople who do things with such good intentions just to fuel their disgusting desires.

      What makes you think they are not sick enough to try and find her?

      Knowing what she looks like.
      Knowing what lies under her clothes.

      by advertising her in such a way you are only fuelling such things, you know?!

      Yes this is disgusting
      But this is an issue fo the local government

      If you REALLY wanted to help her
      you could try police, counsellors

      Do actually believe that the sick people in this world do not get off on such humiliation?

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    I’m torn. On one hand, this IS a topic that is talked about and thus legitimately within chinaSMACK’s domain to report/translate/share, but this will definitely divide the chinaSMACK’s visitors. You’re going to have those who think it is incredibly wrong, those who agree it is wrong but will still watch, and those who really aren’t surprised by anything on the web.

    chinaSMACK has always been risque, so to speak. I think that’s evident by the subject material they’ve covered. However, I do think sharing the torrent, no matter how ubiquitous it might be, might squander some of the reputation the website has earned over the past few months. That would be unfortunate given how much good content they often produce.

    That said, is chinaSMACK supposed to be a window into the Chinese internet or is it supposed to be a gatekeeper? Do we want this website to strictly show us how it is, even when it is disgusting or wrong or whatever…or is there a line that ought to be drawn? Maybe our line is different from Fauna’s line.

    Tough call, but I think reporting should be enough. As with the Kappa girl video, I think those who are curious enough to find it will do so. I don’t think its necessary for chinaSMACK to take the extra step to provide it.

    Moralizing aside, I think the RSS subscription thing is pretty standard fare for a lot of blog media websites. They occasionally offer something extra to “reward” their loyal readers. Now, I don’t think this video is a necessary “reward,” but I don’t think its fair to fault someone for trying to encourage readers to subscribe.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    I forgot to play Devil’s Advocate and explain why I feel compelled to be at least “torn” about this. To help explain, I want to quote a fantastic blog post by Roland Soong over at EastSouthWestNorth:

    1. A bad thing happens somewhere in China (such as police brutality, government malfeasance, a forced eviction, a coal mine disaster, etc).

    2. The local government suppresses all information.

    3. All media reports are censored.

    4. The victims begin a petitioning process up the hierarchy in order to seek justice. The road is long and hard and nothing ever results.

    5. The Internet forums/blogs rushed to report on the case.

    6a. Within 48 hours, all traces of negative (i.e. against the authorities) information are erased by order of the authorities, or else by self-censorship at the portals/forums/blog service providers.

    6b. Positive (i.e. on behalf of the authorities) information appear from Internet commentators who are paid by the authorities for their efforts

    7. But there are just too many portals/forums/blogs that important information will eventually seep through.

    8. Senior Chinese officials take notice, and corrective actions are taken.

    The previous “child porn” video (the Kaiping Incident linked above) also met a ton of outrage by people who said it should not be spread. The reason why I say “Devil’s Advocate” is because the only reason the aggressors in the previous video were ever brought to justice was because the video spread on the web and eventually enough people were aware of it, identified the participants, and the police were forced to do something about it.

    While I doubt chinaSMACK and its legion of foreign readers are going to factor much into any measure of justice being rendered, I’m going to maintain the position I took in the previous Kaiping post: When behavior like this is exposed, it gives society a chance to stop it and change it. Sure, you’re going to have a ton of people joyriding it and simply enjoying the free porn, but I do think there is some appreciable benefit for society to be stunned, outraged, and shocked into facing a serious problem, especially one amongst its children.

    I hate to say it, but seeing a video has far more impact on people’s consciences than reading words or seeing censored pictures. Stanley Kubrick used this to great effect, to deeply disturb people into fearing a future of moral decay amongst youth (A Clockwork Orange anyone?). It is really easy to overlook, dismiss, and forget words and blurry pictures. A video is that much more personal, more real, and more frightening to behold.

    Accuse me of rationalizing if you want, but I think it needs to be said that, however sad it may be, sometimes authorities act only when enough attention is given something, especially here in imperfect China. I know the moralists are going to be up in arms, and while I still agree the torrent is unnecessary and too big of a risk for chinaSMACK to take on, I do want to say good things have happened when people finally realize:

    “Damn, that’s fucked up.”

  • Rick in China

    Providing a link to this kind of media is *NOT* cool, regardless how widely spread it is or how easy it is to find via xxx method. Period. Uncensored naked (even not sexual) shit of teenagers or kids is just wrong. Censor it and discuss. No further comments on this thread from me.

    • Joe

      “naked (even not sexual)shit of teenagers or kids is just wrong”

      Mate…. people like you are destroying the world.

      You are confusing pornography with the natural human body.
      Grow up.

  • LordOfTheFlies

    I don’t think the video is real. I’m going to have to download it myself to verify that it actually shows a young woman taking her clothes off.

    For research purposes, of course.

  • will

    @ kai

    I would fall under the last group. I find nothing shocking on the net anymore.

    The only reason why I would say not to post the torrent on this site is because, I like chinasmack too much and I wouldn’t want it to be taken down because of this.

    Although I’m not sure about the legalities regarding something like this.

  • Taojas

    It’s real. Look up 广东女中学生被威胁脱光衣服. There is nothing really porn or entertaining about it. It is only useful in documenting the sad depravity of some teenagers. Needless to say, the cops and all relevant authorities should come down like a ton of bricks on the guys who made it – as I’m sure they will.

  • http://www.mapinc.org/top100.htm jayman

    These videos are not what most people would consider “sexy”. If someone wanted to see porn, there is so much more varied stuff out there.

  • Teacher in China

    Well, looks like I found the reason why I couldn’t log on to the site through “normal” measures this morning.
    I’ve got nothing to add on what Kai said, I think he hit it right on the nose (that’s what my blurry, pre-tea brain thinks right now anyway…) Nothing like a bit o the ole ultra-violence in the morning…

  • Alex

    Seems ChinaSmack is now blocked in China and that\’s for a very good reason. Seriously how low are your moral standards guys ? What\’s the point this other than pushing up your google rankings ? Wow!?

  • Shanghai Brit

    I don’t really know what to think of this, normally my curiosity gets the better of me but I think this time I’m going to pass on downloading that video. The fact that it’s a schoolgirl who is no older than 16 probably, to me means it is completely wrong to watch.

    But I can’t disagree with what Kai said. The internet is becoming a vigilante police force in this country where police don’t normally care. If more pressure can be put on the authorities to act appropriately and deal with such disgusting behavior as this then surely that’s a good thing.

  • Ron

    Where did you see the video?

  • http://WWW.THEWHT.COM THEWHT.COM

    it’s sad how some people resort to violence, nothing good came out of it, and it never will.

    k.mean
    http://www.thewht.com

  • Anonymous westerner

    There is a difference between porn and nudity.

    And it’s not child porn. She’s not a child.

  • MJ

    Ridiculous! Why you guys blame for ChinaSmack, the link on Mop still exists. ChinaSmack just share the content. Actually, there are many people on Mop provide the link of the video.
    Only you have courage to face it , then you have ability to correct it.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    Strange, I can see chinaSMACK just fine here in Shanghai.

    Like will said, I think it’s better to avoid getting the baby tossed out with the bathwater on this one. I’d hate to see chinaSMACK:

    1) get blocked,
    2) have its reputation overshadowed by this, or
    3) get overrun by indignant people who can’t see beyond the obvious.

    So I’m all for the torrent link being excised as a compromise. I think the hard-hitting in-your-face reports will be enough and let others hunt it out on their own.

    That said, I really have to remark how interesting it is to compare the composition of comments from the Chinese side and from the, uh, chinaSMACK side. Now, I know these aren’t good statistical samples, but while there are comments against spreading the video on both sides, there seems to be more Chinese commenters who skip being outraged about the video’s existence and go directly to being outraged with kids doing these things to each other.

    Sure, maybe the spread of the video itself can be construed as being bad in of itself (depending on the motivation behind it), but doesn’t it seem a bit like worrying too much about the symptom without worrying about the disease?

    People will be curious enough to watch this video simply because it is outrageous and outside of accepted social norms. 2girls1cup anyone? While I don’t advocate this video spreading for sickos to masturbate to, I think the world could do a lot more good worrying about their kids doing fucked up shit like this than worrying about their kids’ videos getting spread.

    I’ll be the first to say I’m not particularly sympathetic to the “victim” or “aggressors” (in the video) that this video got out (well, they uploaded it, right?). For one, the “victim” stole from others and she chose to disrobe to buy her way out of a beating. On some level, she’s facing the consequences of her actions. I know some people feel bad being the peanut gallery but shit, too late now.

    For another, for the “aggressors,” if there is any way for them to get caught (choosing vigilante retribution instead of going through what I’m sure they consider to be ineffective, unsatisfying law/authorities), it will take a lot of people being aware of this video for someone to be outraged enough to know someone in the video and rat them out to authorities annoyed enough by the internet attention to expend some manpower to go make an example of these kids. The video boils down to them publicly shaming someone that wronged them (deep roots in the Cultural Revolution, but not specific to the Chinese). Yet in doing so, they crossed the line too (or maybe the girl was smart enough to know that opting to disrobe would get her more eventual sympathy than getting her ass beat), so now we have to go about publicly shaming them for publicly shaming others.

    Hm.

    I’ll go one step further and say I hope the kids get exposed as well as all their parents for not fucking teaching their kids how to be decent human beings. At least on MTV’s Sweet 16 show, we usually get to see the fucked up parents who create such fucked up kids and ridicule + despise them all equally. I’m seriously hoping the kids on the video are all caught and taught a lesson.

  • http://www.charlesfrith.com Charles Frith

    I believe that this post makes sense of the ugliness.

    http://scampblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/theyre-feral-cruel-and-ruthless.html

    It’s not the kids we should blame. What sort of parental generation has been raised in China? A greedy, callow and ruthless one by the looks of it. Money comes into the equation at some point.

  • blah

    A mixture of corporal and mental punishment. Bright kids, hopefully she will not steal again.

  • Miako Tamatsue

    News about children should be protected. It’s not about local laws or state laws or international laws. It’s the law of morals and ethics. It’s the law of humanity. Freedom of press comes responsibilities. Any pictures of children in the news should be blurred out to protect their identity for many reasons. Please take a pro-active stand. I have seen more than one image or video on this site of children who have committed a crime or been a victim of crime. I know that the images or videos are eventually taken down or replaced, but I appeal to the webmaster of this site to make it policy not to play the videos or show the images of children as victim or as criminal.

    Many times, children do not know what is right and what is wrong. By showing these images, you will practically destroy their lives by humiliating them or even worse, cause retributions in their communities that they do no deserve. A girl in the video was a victim. Showing her being humiliated will further spread her humiliation in her community. The children who victimized her do not deserve to be judged by Internet users who do not fully understand the situation.

  • Miako Tamatsue

    Kai, your reasoning is does not make sense at all. To say that “for one, the ‘victim’ stole from others and she chose to disrobe to buy her way out of a beating. On some level, she’s facing the consequences of her actions” is as childish and thuggish as those children in the video.

    If someone at your work or school or neighborhood accused you of stealing, then you should stand there and get a beating that you deserved? How do you really know that the girl stole something? It could be that one of the ring leader of that group doesn’t like her and started to accuse her of stealing. The rest are just sheep following the leader. Children can be that many times. In fact, adults can be like too. Why don’t you and them reported to the proper authority and let it take it’s course. The law, as created by the community, has been created to determine the proper course of action. How is beating a girl up on the street is a proper action regardless if she did or not? Is it a basic human right that everyone can be vigilente and punish anyone that they judged to do them wrong? Please grow up.

  • Lee

    Reading your website tells me more about China and transformation of China than reading New York Times or listening to BBC. Fantastic Work and thanks for your amazing work.

  • Rick in China

    @Miako Tamatsue
    Thank You. Thank you. Thank you.

  • Peteryang

    it’s porn if you think it is
    it’s not if you don’t
    aka 光腚不流氓,谁看谁流氓

    and PLEASE CENSOR HER FACE.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Miako Tamatsue:

    You seem to have completely misunderstood what I was saying. Judging by your comment, I’d like for you to go back, reread what I wrote, and then point out to me where I am advocating vigilante justice or beating up innocent people because you appear to be accusing me of that. While you’re at it, explain what exactly is “childish and thuggish” and how.

    Next, please explain how anything I said suggests that an innocent person should just stand there and take a beating, or you can acknowledge that you were asking the most ridiculous and irrelevant rhetorical question ever.

    Third, you finally ask a good question that no one has really been asking: Why the hell DIDN’T these kids seek recourse through the authorities? THAT is a far more socially interesting thing to be concerned about than whether or not this kid’s face is blurred or not. I’m all for blurring and protecting the identity of the victim, but I’m much more interested in trying to educate society enough so shit like this doesn’t happen again. What about you?

    Before you respond, make sure you ask yourself if I or anyone here is actually advocating that anything on this film was “proper”? It might help you understand how utterly ridiculous you are for chastising me to “grow up.” Once you’ve resolved all the mental dissonance you’ve hatched upon me, then you can do the world a favor and tackle the problem of how you’re going to go about educating these ignorant, dumbass kids that this is not the way they should go about handling their problems. You’re obviously not satisfied with ONE of my suggestions that we point at this video and say “BAD, THIS IS BAD, B-A-D, DO NOT BE AN IDIOT LIKE THESE PEOPLE.” Maybe the whole negative reinforcement angle doesn’t sit well with you, so show us how it’s done.

  • fireworks

    It is shocking and outrageous that bullying can go on like this. I am not surprise that it happened in Guangdong because of the previous incident involving another girl in a cyber cafe and being swarmed by 6+ girls and beating her.

    Face is a important concept in Chinese culture. Disrobing somebody (a fetish in Guangdong) is the ultimate in losing face.

    Sure the law or the school teachers maybe less effective but that is the only course. Who is to say that citizens or more importantly students can take revenge and the law into their own hands and dish out punishments and humiliation. This means that the school and its teachers are not doing enuff to help these students whether they were victims or bullies learn about civilisation, ethics and moral code.

    This is part of the new generation of children who have access to the Internet, youtube, iPod generation. The old fashion form of bullying takes place but its even more virile, shocking and unpredictable because the opportunistic punks will upload the videos to maximize damage. These children have gone too far, step over the mark.

    Some Guangdong parents need to educate their children about culture and civilization, how to frigging behave and treat others even if they are in the wrong.

  • Rick in China

    @Kai
    “I’m all for blurring and protecting the identity of the victim, but I’m much more interested in trying to educate society enough so shit like this doesn’t happen again.”
    Protecting the underage girl who has been passed around the internet with full naked body & face exposed should be the priority here, Kai, if we trample on the rights of AN individual, we risk losing the rights of all individuals, regardless of the “greater good” you’ve came up with.

    I don’t think showing this video around teaches ANYONE, ANYTHING. Do you think this video going about will stop girls from stealing at school? Do you think it will stop SHAMING of other kids or other people for doing something wrong? Have you considered that pushing this video around will ENCOURAGE repeats of this kind of punishment? are kids so learned and wise as to accept your ‘lessons’ that you’ve created as a result of this video being pushed about, and really come to the same conclusions as you? I for one seriously think not, and it’s a shame that this vid has been put here with the girls face, as well as linked to the full naked underage fully exposed version (I assume?).

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Period. And your response to Miako in the form of things like “Why the hell DIDN’T these kids seek recourse through the authorities?” — are you serious? They’re kids, they don’t abide by the same matured opinions you may. I think you’ve made far too many assumptions in your justifications – kids are cruel..straight up..and pushing this vid around will only end up leading to many more of its ilk.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ fireworks:

    Who is to say that citizens or more importantly students can take revenge and the law into their own hands and dish out punishments and humiliation. This means that the school and its teachers are not doing enuff to help these students whether they were victims or bullies learn about civilisation, ethics and moral code.

    YES, EXACTLY.

    It takes a village to raise a child.

    SOMETHING IS BROKEN WITH THE VILLAGE.

    @ Rick in China:

    We need to start at a presumption that we can both agree upon. So, let’s begin with the possible consequences of this video spreading.

    You think this video spreading around will “ENCOURAGE” repeats of this kind of punishment. Sure, I acknowledge copycat crimes and that other misguided individuals might think this is a great idea. However, are you insisting that this is the ONLY possible consequence of the video spreading?

    If not (and I should hope so), are you going to argue that there is absolutely ZERO ways to use this INCIDENT (but perhaps not this video, hence why I’m not willing to say this video SHOULD be spread, only accepting that it HAS and working with that in mind) to bring awareness to a potential problem amongst China’s youth and to instigate an appropriate social response to it in the form of, say, increased ethical education?

    “Kids are cruel…straight up” sounds like a justification and an assumption to me, Rick. I know kids CAN be cruel, but they don’t have to, not with good socialization through parents, educators, society, etc. I don’t think kids possibly being cruel justifies focusing only on how wrong it was for this video to be spread without even dedicating a single brain cell to thinking of how this can be used to remind people that we need to watch our kids, teach our kids, and yes, protect our kids.

    Maybe our worldviews are different, Rick. Ironically, I’m the optimist here and you’re the cynic. You have complete faith that this video is going to spawn copycats and I have moderated faith that people seeing this video, being profoundly disturbed by it, and the surrounding outrage of this happening in the first place will lead to:

    1. Kids identifying how cruel and awful this is.
    2. Parents identifying how cruel and awful this is, then teaching their children.
    3. Society identifying how cruel and awful this is, then teaching the parents to teach their children.

    What do you think, Rick? “Are you serious?” Yes, absolutely serious. I mean, that’s why capital punishment and public executions exist, right? That’s why we encourage rape victims to out their rapists even if that brings them unfair but often unavoidable public shame, right?

    Shit, Rick, life isn’t fair. There are lines on the ground, some clearer than others, but my position here is not to argue with you guys that spreading this video is appropriate, it is to tell you that the video is spread, telling Fauna she’s an idiot for taking the risk of spreading it further for whatever marginal benefit she thought she was going to get, and asking you all to find something constructive out of all of this.

    If our children knew better than to resort to such measures for retribution, we wouldn’t have to worry about protecting the identity of a naked girl in a video. For crying out loud, TAKE THE NEXT STEP. Teenagers do this because WE, as a society, FAILED to teach them what is RIGHT and WRONG.

    You’ll say “yeah, and this spreading this video is WRONG, so you should be patting me on the head for fighting against this evil.” Well, yes, here’s your cookie, now can we actually accept what happened in the video, accept that it spread, accept that you saw it, and learn from it all? This is like a war that happened, and some soldier got killed by another soldier, and you’re more preoccupied about the right to life than trying to figure out why the war happened in the first place. Yes, arguing about the right to life is noble and all, but is that all there is to this?

  • Teacher in China

    @ Kai and Rick
    Having a lot of experience dealing with kids in China, I thought I could weigh in partially on this.
    I think the “kids are cruel” saying is too easy of an out in this situation. Sure, kids do things to each other that are cruel, but they generally learn when they are told that that behaviour is inappropriate. I’ve personally dealt with several instances of bullying and shaming in the past three years, and one of them from a girl who was particularly spoiled and badly behaved. The school refused to punish her properly, so I took the step to refuse to teach her until she apologized. That lasted for 2 weeks (during which time she was not allowed in my class), then she caved in and admitted her behaviour was wrong. She learned a lesson and has since become almost a model student.

    Can this video be used to teach a lesson? Probably. When dealing with kids and teenagers, it’s hard to say anything 100%; just like adults, there are many different personalities, upbringings and psychologies to take into account. Thinking about my own students (past and present)(15-19 years old) I’m sure a lot would be horrified, but some would laugh and some may think it was cool. I’d have to say though, the majority would react as any of us would. They would feel the horror and shame of that person and be able to weigh whether that was appropriate given what she was accused of. Rick, don’t underestimate teenagers’ ability to think and reason just like the rest of us. Kai, don’t underestimate (and I don’t think you are, but just in case…) the possibility that a few people would react in a non-positive way to this video (i.e., wanting to copy it, thinking it was funny, etc.)

  • Rick in China

    @Kai
    Kids are cruel – this doesn’t mean all kids – but it means enough to make many more lives miserable, and I think that spreading this video will create more incidences rather than less, that’s my opinion – you can have yours.

    I’m surprised you have made out the entire argument for me, you’ve told me what I’m “going” to say, you’ve told me what my replies may be, and you’ve assumed an amazing amount of banter between us based on…? assumption, assumption, assumption, just as you assume spreading this video will curb more of the same problem.

    Here’s the thing. REPORT on it. Spread the news. Spread the video. Spread the story. Explain the results and why it’s wrong. Analyze it and criticize it. BUT: Censor the girls VAGINA, Censor the girls TITS, and Censor the girls..most importantly…FACE. Fuck. How can you possibly say it’s alright to use this particular singled out girl as an example for your rampage of “this’ll teach the world to be better” (which I think is jaded opinion, anyways). You can spread your story without personalizing it and helping to fuck up this girls life beyond all belief – this type of thing results in suicide. Fauna may only be doing that which many other sites are doing – but that doesn’t make it any more morally justifiable.

    In addition, “accept that you’ve seen it” – I haven’t seen it, nor do I want to see it, nor would I click a link or subscribe to the RSS feed to see it, nor would I have any reaction but disgust to even the best of my friends who click that shit and take part in what I see as exploitation of a young schoolgirl. I’m no saint, I’m not taking some sort of moral highroad pointing down my finger upon the masses, I’m saying that this particular issue is something I can’t support in any way shape or form, regardless of your justification for spreading links to a young schoolgirl being forced to show her vag, tits, and face on camera. CENSOR IT for fuck sakes, and my entire protest disappears. (BTW, I’m assuming it’s not censored from comments.)

    @Teacher
    I’m not saying that the majority of kids are going to react in a negative way. Most kids are good – just as most people, but there are enough bad ones to fuck up the lives of enough others to make my argument. I’m not disagreeing with anything you’ve said, in fact, but it doesn’t need to be a majority to be wrong. It doesn’t require a mass change in people’s minds or reactions to be wrong. It only requires _more than otherwise_ incidents as a result of an action, to be wrong.

  • Ron

    Oh yeah anyone actually notice that the person who posted this pictures, say he doesnt want to spread this video around but damn i think i can see the girl’s face in one of the frame there pretty clearly. With her school uniform, i am sure it is not hard to identify her if you lived in Guang Zhou hien?

    The person who posted this should be sent to jail as well for distributing it. What she needed to have done is either go straight to the press or present it to the appropriate authority. Granted they may not do anything but making it accessible to billions of people online is not any better.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Teacher in China:

    Thanks. I’m definitely aware of how this video can be misused or otherwise result in negative influence. That’s why I was careful to reiterate time and time again through my comments my awareness and acknowledgment of such (remember the “joyriding” comments?).

    @ Rick in China:

    1. Rick, I used hypothetical banter (you love that word too, right?) to illustrate my points, not necessarily to put words in your mouth. Don’t make me doubt your intelligence.

    2. How are you accusing me of making assumptions when you’ve done the same thing? More importantly, why do you assume I’m arguing for the video to be spread with her face and private parts uncensored? Can you please point out where I’ve taken that stance? Or are you man enough to admit you’ve been flailing wildly against a straw man?

    3. Re-read #2, because I’m annoyed you projected that sort of position onto me.

    4. “Accept that you’ve seen it” was not “you” personally nor was “it” necessarily the video itself. That phrase was meant to say that one ought to accept what they’ve seen and react appropriately. My suggestion is that person react by contributing to the message that what happened in the video was wrong, instead of wasting their time whining about not spreading the video inadvertently making everyone all the more curious to see it. The enduring message each person should give and receive is: The kids did something wrong. It should not be: “this video is bad, but don’t watch it!”

    5. So aside from you misinterpreting, misrepresenting, and maligning my position, I think it is important for you to consider how we actually agree on many basic things, but we’re viewing this entire matter from qualitatively different perspectives. I’m asking people to consider what this video they’ve seen or now know about teaches them about our society and our society’s children, if this is right or wrong, and what can we do about it. It is about the only way we can lead people in the “right” direction after their “innocence” or “ignorance” is lost. Yeah, sucks for the girl, yes, let’s ask people to blur out the details, but for crying out loud, what the hell should you be focusing your energy on? Feeling self-righteous?

    6. I’m going to let you go on your disturbing, nonchalant, wholesale excuse that children are all cruel, and incapable of distinguishing right or wrong. I hope you can acknowledge that this girl is already fucked, and while your minuscule efforts to minimize the damage to her by chiding websites and others to censor her private parts and face certainly still make a minuscule positive difference, it is TANGENT to the larger message that society will not tolerate kids doing these things to each other.

    7. To reiterate yet again, because it seems necessary given all this straw about me, no one, least of all me, is advocating that this video be spread or even spread uncensored. I’m just saying: now that it has, and everyone knows that it has, whether here or elsewhere, what the fuck should you really be angry about? How are you going to salvage this irreversible situation and what conclusion do you want to reinforce people arriving at afterward?

    Once you figure that out, we can argue about the war on drugs.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Ron:

    I’m wondering why the OP posted on Mop instead of taking the video and going directly to the police station or CCTV. Now, I DO think the OP is sincere about not personally wanting to spread the video but I imagine s/he’s also skeptical of the police or media doing anything without first drumming up public attention and outrage by at least exposing the video’s existence and partially exposing the content of the video.

    It is debatable whether it is better or not to expose this to potentially “billions of people online” in the case that the authorities refuse to do anything about it, preferring to sweep it under the rug, and maintain the “good name” of the city or the “good image” of their society.

    Can you accept kids continuing to beat and humiliate each other with everyone else none the wiser as long as the victim’s “shame” doesn’t get compounded by the exposure of the beatings and humiliation?

    Your heart is in the right place. Just asking some tough and very real questions relevant to our imperfect society. What should we do?

  • Linda Jung

    hi, do you think you can send me this video?

    I am curious to see…

  • Rick in China

    @Kai
    RE: #1 Banter is fine. It was simply a comment to you constructing an enormous and detailed back’n’forth between yourself, basically, I was indicating that no matter what I had said, you have already made up your mind as to what my arguments would be – therefor it would be difficult to impossible for anything I say to penetrate.

    RE: #2/3
    Your arguments started off ignoring the fact (implicit agreement or support) that her face was uncensored (as well as her vag and tits) and defending its posting/spreading being supported by the site which we both enjoy reading and commenting on, without mentioning anything about censoring (I noticed somewhere along the lines you agreed with someone in the middle of one of your posts about it should be censored, but it certainly wasn’t any priority or forethought). I never explicitly said you *support* spreading underage porn (it’s not really PORN, but, it’s porn-ish) but you have taken that as an implication from my statements, just as I have taken your agreement/disregard implicitly from your non-statements.

    RE: #4 Your point here shows complete and utter disregard for any individual rights of another person. There’s a difference between accepting that another place has spread and posted this shit, to which I would say “That’s expected, and while it’s wrong, it’s not something we can control.” and move on. But this is a site which we both take active part in – and Fauna pays attention to our comments. Therefor, I believe that commenting here in terms of “I think what has happened _HERE_ is wrong” is very relevant. Like I said – as soon as everything is censored, not spread _here_, or something else to that extent my frame of mind and prioritization of discussion change from this girl who is likely going to end her life as a result of shit like this, to a macro-perspective of how can this story be used to create more awareness of social problems in our school systems and society in whole.

    RE: #5 Like I’ve said, I agree with your points. I agree that this story is important to be known, and hopefully it encourages some sort of extra attention to situations like this from parents and schools to help prevent this kind of shit from happening, or at least curb it. We don’t, and I haven’t previously, disagreed on that.

    RE: #6 RE: “wholesale excuse that children are all cruel” Did you even read my post? I specifically said, “Most kids are good – just as most people, but there are enough bad ones to fuck up the lives of enough others to make my argument.”. Please don’t make me repeat myself, and, quite frankly, the fact you’ve contradicted phrases I’ve specifically use in your rant about how I’m “misinterpreting, misrepresenting, and maligning [your] position” is quite ironic, no?

    RE: #7 I’m glad we agree on this. All I’m asking is that this site, which we both respect, doesn’t take part in the distribution of this kind of thing without making a clear point – naked kids put (especially against their will) on the internet should have their faces and genitals censored. If that was done, none of our heated discussion would have taken place, _none_ of it.

    That being said, I’m not sure where the link or whatever was, but in a quick glance I don’t see it – was it removed? If so, *applause Fauna*, and thank you.

  • Teacher in China

    @ Kai and Rick
    A quickie. Kai’s reference to your “kids are cruel” statement was from your older post, where you said “kids are cruel..straight up” with no qualification. You did, however, qualify this a little in the next post where you said “Kids are cruel – this doesn’t mean all kids”.
    It seems to me like you’re both basically saying the same things, in slightly different ways, so I think you can give it a rest more or less now, don’t you? Let’s be friends! :)

  • Rick in China

    @Teacher in China
    That is an ill-justification – as his #1 references my final post, indicating he has read it, as such – he should have read the qualification. That being said, adding in something like “all” even to my original phrase is not a valid quote, either, and shouldn’t be argued…it’s turning a statement with some ambiguity into a black and white absolute on the illogical side of the statement – I mean, of course not ALL.

    I don’t think that Kai and I have an ‘unfriendly’ relationship; to me, heated discussions are an important part of friendship.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Rick in China:

    Whoa, we went from recognizing each other’s chinaSMACK comment section names to “friendship?” :)

    LoL, anyway, let’s see…

    Regarding your responses to my points…

    1, 2, 3. I am going to disagree a bit here while respecting that you fully believe I have made up my mind about your argument and hence whatever you say will not penetrate me. Why? Because that is precisely what I’ve been accusing you (and Miako) of with all my “straw man” references. You have, at times, criticized me wrongly based upon an assumption that I advocate spreading this video uncensored, or worse, that I cannot see the potential damage such uncensored dissemination will have on the girl. That is wrong and you’ve consistently argued that. However, you have finally acknowledged that you’ve made an assumption of that. Given that you made the first assumption, the burden of all your mistaken criticisms stemming from that initial assumption is indeed upon you.

    I’ve tried to make clear that I’ve long approached this entire incident as considering “okay, what do we do now?” and it has centered around how society should react to the children beating and humiliating each other. Once again, I am not objecting to details censored nor am I defending them remaining uncensored.

    I WILL say that I DO indeed think “we can’t let our kids do this to each other” is a more important message to take from this entire incident than “her face should’ve been censored.” I care far less about perverts on the internet wanking off to this. I care far more about all the maybe curious but still generally decent people who see this video walking away being outraged and doing what little they can to prevent such things from happening again under their watch.

    If my priority is unacceptable to you, there is not much I can do about it. Maybe we have different values. It isn’t that I don’t value the individual girl’s consequences or rights, its that I simply believe that AT THIS POINT where the video has spread, her identity is already out there, that making sure society remembers a key lesson is more critical. I feel my emphasis is on prevention of harm, while your emphasis is on the limitation of harm ex post facto.

    4. Read above, and I reiterate that you’re making a nice black and white statement by arguing that I have “complete and utter disregard for the individual rights of another person.” I disagree and I do take offense. It is untrue especially in the context of everything I’ve said.

    5. You did say spreading this video won’t teach “ANYONE, ANYTHING.” I disagree. However, just because I do DOES NOT mean I advocate spreading it. It just means I’m realistic enough to acknowledge that even an uncensored video CAN be positively educational to people. I don’t think there is any tenable position to argue against that. The only argument is that the potential harm outweighs the potential benefit, and it would have to be tempered by marginal harm and benefits, while all being subject to subjective value-statements. I will try to make this more clear:

    Example:
    Someone has seen this video, uncensored. You can’t change that fact. What message do you want to communicate to him? What conclusion do you want him to walk away with? “This video should’ve been censored” or “this shit shouldn’t happen.”

    I AGREE, like I presume you to agree, that BOTH are important. You’ve just chosen to spend your time championing the first, while I started from the second. Neither of us are inherently wrong, but we value (yes, VALUE) the two things differently based upon our subjective belief of what would produce the most good relevant to our grasp of the situation and relevant to what effect we want to have.

    6. Teacher in China responded for me on this one. I’m pretty certain I was lambasting you for making such wild unqualified statements. Yes, you qualified them later. The difference, I maintain, is that you built you criticism of me on a mistaken assumption of you. My criticism of your criticism was actually founded on words you wrote but only later qualified. ;)

    7. I think we’re officially love-hate butt-buddies now (not that anything is wrong with butt-buddyhood in of itself…for others). But I still think Miako owes me an apology. ;)

  • No Links

    Might I add that, as much as Rick in China values the right for the girl retain her dignity, and Kai values the lessons to be learnt by society, these discussions lack any real substance. Kai rightly claims we have little control over preventing the circulation of the video, but in terms of informing society what to learn from this, mere posters on China Smack likewise have no power over that.

    As I see it, this video will have been viewed by many different people, some who are naturally cruel will laugh, a pervert will indulge in onanism, another will become disgusted, but no-one will learn anything from it. It is merely evidence that yes, children can be cruel. Haven’t we known all along that children need to be taught good from bad (stealing is wrong, bullying is wrong)? The unfortunate circulation of this unfortunate incident cannot be ‘salvaged’ by subsequently providing any real answers or lessons; it is simply an event for an individual, sitting alone infront of his screen, to react to in whichever way he is inclined to react, and I’m sure most would agree our emotive response should be ‘boo’, not ‘hurrah’.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ No Links:

    There is as much “substance” in this discussion as resigned cynicism (or is it fatalism?) in your comment. The interesting thing is how our cynicism manifests itself differently between Rick, I, and you.

    Rick is cynical about children knowing right from wrong.

    I’m cynical about efforts curbing human curiosity.

    You’re cynical about any effect even simple messages Rick or I or anyone else could utter might have upon anyone else.

    From a cynical perspective, all of us have just cause for feeling the way we do, because the world shows each of us to be right, at times. I think Rick and I have our hearts in the right place, even if we emphasize different aspects of a complex mutli-faceted problem. I think most people know that stealing, bullying, humiliating, disrespecting a person’s dignity, etc. are all wrong…but people forget. Rick is reminding others for one thing, I another.

    No one is going to argue the world can be made perfect or fixed. All we can do is keep up the fight really. The world keeps turning, but we push back every so often to remind ourselves of who we are and what we value. I do believe that simple action does indeed “salvage” whatever ill happens in society. I do believe that simple action does indeed provide some answers and lessons, even if they are just reminders. There shouldn’t be a moment where we, as a society, stop feeling appalled or outraged enough to express ourselves. We, as a species, are socialized by the cues we take from our surroundings and our peers.

    Rick and I have given our cues. You have too, because despite your argument that there’s no real substance or no real answers or lessons, you have at least reinforced the sentiment that people should respond negatively to this incident.

  • No Links

    You may believe a simple action (like writing on a forum that this incident is bad), ‘salvages’ the spreading of the video, but realistically, (rather than cynically), in this single incident, who will listen to us preach, who will read our comments? My comment was purely a critique of the back-and-forth between you and Rick, which I deemed unnecessary because the goals that you both propound cannot be attained, hence it lacked what I called substance.

    Note however, that I do believe that values can change in a society if a loud and constant voice is used. But on this single occasion, I ask you how many of those who viewed the video alone, learnt anything, or changed from being a bully, to being compassionate?

    If your overarching point is that society as a whole, as a complete entity needs to see this video as a symbol of itself and improve, then certainly I agree with you, there‘s always room for improvement in any society. But this point is not antithetical to anything Rick said, indeed it is implied in his course of action. We may wish that others who see this video subsequently want an improved society, but we can’t expect to see individuals who are already ‘bullies’ take away any lessons by simply watching the video. Why should they? As the video spreads, nothing is salvaged, the video alone evades moral messages, we, as individuals, can only read into it what we already think. We can only hope more people detest it than don’t.

    By all means we can express ourselves, we can ‘keep up the fight’, but in this incidence, it is impossible for our punches to accompany the video.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ No Links:

    Welcome to the substance-less party, then, eh? ;) Seriously, I understand your point, even your conclusion, and especially how your contribution is no more nor less insightful or substantive than our’s.

    If we’re going to veer more philosophically into this, I’m game. A loud consistent voice is comprised of many small, quieter voices. No matter how loud a single voice by a single influential person may be, it is the combined voices of many that are truly “loud” and substantive. Just as Rick and I have acknowledged, yes, us typing furiously in chinaSMACK’s comments may not be much in the grand scheme of things, but we’re both contributing something. By my logic, so are you, even if your contribution is to denigrate contributions you deem to be inconsequential.

    I happen to think every bit helps. You never know when one voice might get others talking and lead up to that loud consistent voice you want. Maybe that doesn’t “salvage” anything for you, but it does for me. We’ll differ on that.

    To be honest, neither I nor you can say with absolute certainty if anything Rick or I said (or you) has changed anyone’s minds or taught anyone anything. The expectations of my position were modest to begin with. I just hope my comments REINFORCE people’s conclusions that “gee golly willikers, that’s wrong.”

    A loud consistent voice begins with a proposition and subsequent agreement. It has to start somewhere, even from different places, even from different voices, large or small, dependent or even independent of each other.

    No, you’re right, my point wasn’t antithetical to anything Rick said (aside from his earlier statements that were later qualified). But you’ve misunderstood. Our arguments were about his criticisms of me being mistakenly antithetical to what I said. As Teacher in China has pointed out, Rick and I actually don’t really disagree. We might felt compelled to comment about different things but we both agree the content of the video is bad, we would like for it to happen less instead of more, and a line needs to be drawn on censoring details if this video is to be of any benefit as a cautionary example.

    That said, I don’t think society “needs” to see the video. I think it CAN learn SOMETHING from seeing the video. I think that SOMETHING can be beneficial, even if it is a wake up call or a reinforcement of their belief that such incidences are wrong and need to be monitored. But “need?” No. Insofar as Rick wanted to maintain that NOTHING can be learned, yes, I disagree with him on that…but I don’t think he meant to play absolute on that.

    I never stated that I believe “bullies” watching this video will learn any lessons. I even explicitly acknowledge the existence of incorrigible people, joyriders and people wanking off to it all. Are you seriously criticizing me for an argument I didn’t make?

    Yes, if we want to be philosophical, the video itself evades moral messages. That’s why such a big part of my position was how the people around it, observers if you will, ADD moral messages to it…and how doing so may or may not reinforce sentiments, lessons, reaffirmations, or reinforcements amongst society at large. We not only read what we may already think, but we also ascribe to it what we think, and whatever we ascribe to it when communicated enters the marketplace of ideas.

    Please re-read what argument you’re making. I see you saying: “Whatever people say about this video has no effect and we can only hope others detest it like we do but otherwise there is nothing we can do, nothing we can salvage.” Is that a reasonably accurate representation of what you’ve said? If so, then are you suggesting there’s no way anyone, any individual, can really influence others?

    I doubt it, since you still believe in that “loud, consistent voice.” But watch your words. You’re contradicting yourself. Or rather, you’re just trying to denigrate Rick and I as unimportant. Hey, we aren’t that important, we’re small fries, but so what? As Rick said, we both are active on this website. It may not be a world forum, but its still something.

    It is a shame you feel compelled to dismiss our minor contributions as lacking in substance. I love nihilism, but I suspect you’re only pseudo-nihilistic. Again, like Rick said, our “punches” may not affect much, but they might, even for a wee little bit, affect something here, on this website, for those reading.

    Hey, it got you into the conversation, right? ;)

  • Rick in China

    @Kai
    Something I said may have been not so descriptive of my feelings – I think nothing can be gained *from having the uncensored video spread around*. In that, I mean, censoring the girls face, censoring her tits and vag, can have ultimately the same benefit – without all of the negativity on this person’s life. She’s essentially destroyed…in my view, I would not at all be surprised if she’s in a future posting about a girl who jumped from her X floor apartment because of internet slander.

    I’ve said before and will repeat – I agree with your points, I agree that the story should be spread, I agree that the story should be told, I think that it should be told with taste – censoring the young girls face and vag, that’s it. I’ve said before, censor that shit and don’t take part in the spreading of this video and I can maintain the respect I have for the site, but taking part in the spreading with the “oh well it’s everywhere else already” is a view I totally disagreed with. I think I was unclear in my points here, and maybe it takes all of the posts put together to cypher my ‘side’ on this issue…but it hasn’t been in contrast to yours in regards to the story having a positive effect when more people can know and analyze the repercussions of these kind of actions.

    To statements like, “rick is cynical about..” I’m not cynical about “children” knowing right from wrong – you’re propagating the “unqualified” statement, I believe that there are enough children who know right from wrong and choose to do wrong to make some children have Fucked up lives. I’m not that black and white, and I’m sure you know it.

    (Also, by the ‘friendship’ statement, I meant friendly, as in I’d have a beer with, likely followed by some kind of debate.)

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Rick:

    Re: Your first paragraph: Yes, we agree on this point.

    Re: Your second paragraph: Yes, we agree on this as well.

    Re: Your third paragraph: Okay, yes, I see how I’m propagating your statement prior to you qualifying it. My apologies. For the record, like No Links and Teacher in China, we all know and agree there are always some bad seeds in society who will misuse this video. As I said before, we all have our hearts in the right place.

    Re: Friendship: LoL, yes, I know. I was just joking about the butt-buddies thing but you know that already. Cheers.

  • No Links

    I can see that you now argue merely to defend the worth of giving your opinion on a message board. I do not categorically denounce the worth of one sharing one’s opinion upon a message board, why else would I contribute?

    Incidentally, my point about substance was that all we can really contribute to the discussion is whether or not we share the same negativity towards it or not, which we seem to agree on in your ’modest’ hope to “reinforce people’s conclusions that ‘gee golly willikers, that’s wrong.’” I never once suggested you ought to shut up because you’re ‘small fries’.

    Which brings me on to my next point: if all we can do is reinforce the opinion of others, rather than change them from bully to saint, what real contribution have we made, or rather, how has the spread of the video been ‘salvaged‘? Let us not delude ourselves that it has. (but even this isn’t my main point, and it seems to have misled you into thinking that I think no human can influence another. See below)

    In terms of the incident being a miniscule force for change in society, another addition to our drive for improvement, I don’t doubt that it contributes. But here I don’t contradict myself with the above. Because as far as this one incident angers likeminded people like you or me, that fact alone isn’t enough to redeem the video’s circulation. You seem to be suggesting that any and all evidence of a ‘bad’ in society is somehow ‘salvageable’ because we are reminded that society is ‘bad‘, and that we must change it. Which seems like quite an empty idea to me, it lacks ‘substance’.

    Possibly our only real disagreement lies in the ‘benefits‘. You see them merely in the fact that we are discussing the video, whereas I think the word ‘benefit’, or ‘salvage’ is too strong a word to attribute to the video if discussion about it is the only effect. Of course you think discussion will lead to something greater, and it is true, discussion can lead to something greater, but I don’t think it is worthwhile to say that is a benefit of this video spreading, for such an attribution is too general to be meaningful.

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ No Links:

    Well, yes, it would only be natural to “defend” the worth of giving an opinion on a message board when someone saunters on to accuse others that their opinion lacks any “real substance.” We’re both just being very matter of fact about this.

    Yes, reinforcing a value or conclusion can indeed “salvage” something so long as you’re against that value or conclusion changing. For example, exposure to these incidences may lead to becoming desensitized to it, a common concern in our times with regards to matters of sex and violence in the media. Will exposure necessarily desensitize someone? Of course not, everyone is different, but if we cannot stop the proliferation of such images, we can still do what we can to remind ourselves and each other what is right and wrong within those images. Maybe it is a losing battle, or maybe it isn’t, but am I correct in assuming you’d still fight that battle alongside Rick and I?

    That’s doing what we can to “salvage” something against potentially becoming more harmful than it could be, simply because we’re reinforcing something.

    If the crux of your disagreement with me lies in semantics, then I think you’re being needlessly picky. I’ve made it clear many times now in my back and forth with Rick that I fully acknowledge that whatever we do or say to reinforce what we believe may not change everyone or “salvage” everyone. You’ve also now acknowledged that whatever we do or say MAY “lead to something greater, and it is true.”

    I may sometimes be loose with my words, but I never said “redeem.” You’re excising parts of my position so you can point at the remaining husk and say it “lacks substance.” My position is not that this entire incident can be salvaged just in the discussion of it, but in the entire process of discussing it, ascribing the right response to it, and propagating that response to reinforce the right conclusion amongst society.

    If you want to talk about benefits or salvaging, it isn’t just preventing teenage bullying, its also reminding us as a society to care, say something, and figuring out what to say. Again, I have no delusions about the modesty of an individual’s contribution, but yes, it is intrinsically beneficial for an individual and society to do this and yes, that is their contribution to salvaging whatever benefit can be found from such a video that has spread as such.

    If your personal and subjective value system dictates all of this as being “too general to be meaningful,” then fine, that is your opinion. Now, I think you expressing it has a potential drawback of distracting observers into thinking about the unimportant issues relevant to this video, but you make your own calls.

    It is a benefit to reflect upon, discuss, and promote the right conclusions one should have about this incident in hopes of preventing such incidences from occurring again or more in the future. Otherwise, we risk letting such a thing propagate out of curiosity without any moral guidance whatsoever. The ethics and morality of a society come from that society, and we are that society. Our voice counts, what we say can harm or benefit, and yes, again, I think that is meaningful and substantive.

  • Rick in China

    @Kai & No Links

    You two have gone off on such an amazing tangent it should really be re-threaded as a new topic.

    Lets argue about arguing and discuss about discussing *yawn* :)

  • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

    @ Rick in China:

    LoL, indeed. Just like you and I before, I think we’re going around in circles. I really hope he can accept what I said as being reasonable, logical, and entirely valid even if he personally doesn’t think it means much. That’s all I’ll hope for.

    I just read this on my lazy Saturday:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/21/webcam.suicide/index.html

    I think some aspects of the incident has some bearing upon our discussions here. For example, Justin.tv taking the video and comments offline respects the suicide victim’s privacy (though I guess we can argue about whether he wanted privacy in the first place by committing suicide on the web cam in the first place), which ties in with what Rick has emphasized here. That the news is reported ties in with all our beliefs that it could educate people, even “salvaging” an otherwise tragedy to help others be more attentive to those who may be suicide risks. It even ties in with what I care about: that what an individual says in reaction to something is meaningful.

  • too yellow

    Chinasmack is too yellow too violent!!!!

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