Buried Under Textbooks Preparing For Entrance Exam

79 Comments

1. skydiggity

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 12:40 am

   @kai

   wow you really are long winded,

   you said “The difference [between US and 中国] is that universities in the States take more factors into consideration beyond just a single test score.”

   this might be true for the majority of diploma mills we find in our country, however if you look at any major education center in 中国 you will find very quickly there are extensive interviews for all potential applicants.

   Reply
2. Biggs

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 12:57 am

   I’m preparing some students for exams which I myself took in order to get move ahead, the cheek of some of them is that they want me to pass them while their standards are pitifully low.

   Reply
3. Jay

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 1:07 am

   They just need to get bigger desks.

   Reply
4. Kai

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 1:28 am

   @ skydiggity;

   1. If you really insist, we’re ALL whining about something, and insofar as I’ve whined more than you here, it’s mostly because I’m just more interested. But thank you for being “nicer” to me nonetheless.

   2. I stand behind my statement that the result of a single test is a significantly far larger determinant for acceptance to Chinese universities (even “major education centers”) compared to their Western counterparts. I believe we can agree on this point?

   3. Sure, maybe those “extensive interviews” should at least be mentioned, and I’m curious to see where you might go with them.

   @ Jay:

   Heh.

   Reply
5. jamar

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 1:32 am

   SO this leaves me worried about my prospects- current financial straits leaves me with the possibility of having to go to JiaoTong or Fudan for university instead of going to college back in the States because of the tremendously low tuition. So a serious question- am I going to have to suffer through this as an international student? Or do I get to skip this?

   Reply
6. mtm

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 3:17 am

   I have a whine too.
   I want to whine about Tom and skydiggity whining about Kai’s whining. When will these whiners quit whining?

   Reply
7. mtm

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 5:05 am

   More Chinese education hilarity for our China-hating foreign friends to point fingers and lol about!!
   Apparently, China’s education system is so fcuked up that even a student with Gaokao score of zero and still enter uni. hilarious!

   台灣高考零分照入大學

   「 零 蛋 」 都 可 以 讀 大 學 。 台 灣 過 往 力 推 高 等 育 普 及 化 ，導 致 近 年 大 學 學 位 供 過 於 求 ， 今 年 考 生 憑 「 捧 蛋 」 成 績 也 有 可 能 升 讀 大 學 ， 學 界 批評 政 府 育 政 策 錯 誤 ， 「 零 分 上 大 學 」 是 國 際 笑 話 。

   大 學 指 考 （ 大 學 入學 指 定 科 目 考 試 ， 類 似 香 港 高 級 程 度 會 考 。 ） 成 績 日 前 剛 出 爐 ， 就 傳 出 零 分 生 也 可以 讀 大 學 ！ 大 學 考 試 入 學 分 發 委 員 會 組 長 郭 煌 坦 言 ， 考 生 只 要 報 名 參 加 考 試 ， 即使 缺 席 應 試 僅 得 零 分 ， 也 能 填 寫 院 校 學 系 志 願 。 由 於 今 年 大 學 指 考 報 名 人 數 下 降 ，確 有 可 能 出 現 「 人 人 都 是 大 學 生 」 的 局 面 。

   去 年 十 萬 人 報 名 參 加 大 學指 考 ， 九 萬 人 填 志 願 ， 錄 取 率 近 九 成 六 三 ， 只 有 三 千 多 人 落 榜 、 卅 五 院 校 學 系 收 生不 足 ， 剩 下 五 百 多 個 學 位 。 今 年 報 名 人 數 只 有 九 萬 三 千 多 人 ， 學 位 則 有 八 萬 五 千 多個 ， 若 依 去 年 九 成 考 生 填 志 願 的 比 率 ， 預 估 只 有 八 萬 四 千 多 人 填 志 願 ， 取 錄 率 幾 達百 分 之 百 。

   即 使 考 生 僅 得 零 分 ， 也 可 能 獲 院 校 錄 取 ， 漏 洞 在 於 並 非 所有 學 系 設 有 最 低 收 生 標 準 。 去 年 ， 有 考 生 憑 極 低 的 十 八 分 升 讀 大 學 ， 震 驚 全 台， 育 部 曾 要 求 大 學 招 聯 會 訂 立 統 一 最 低 錄 取 標 準 ， 但 因 部 分 私 校 反 對 ， 授 權 各 校自 訂 ， 目 前 僅 得 十 校 、 共 八 十 院 系 設 下 最 低 門 檻 。

   台 學 界 狠 批 國 際 笑 話
   台 學 界 狠 批 「 零 分 上 大 學 」 畸 象 ， 前 暨 南 大 學 校 長 李 家 同 坦 言 ： 「 讓 沒 有 能 力 的 人進 大 學 ， 是 害 他 ！ 」 育 部 應 承 擔 當 初 狂 加 學 位 的 錯 誤 政 策 。 清 華 大 學 務 長 王 天 戈指 今 年 若 有 零 分 生 入 大 學 ， 將 成 國 際 笑 話 。 未 設 收 生 最 低 門 檻 的 真 理 大 學 主 秘 郭 崇仁 稱 ， 零 分 讀 大 學 「 很 誇 張 」 ， 他 們 寧 可 不 要 這 樣 的 學 生 。

   Reply
8. Joe #2

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 7:10 am

   > It has been over 2 years since I have graduated, but I still have nightmares. Life during the last year of high school was taking tests everyday!

   Heh, I love that comment because I do the same thing. It’s been years since I finished college, but I still have nightmares about school every so often. Sometimes I think I’ve somehow been forgetting to go to class or that I’m going to miss a test if I don’t hurry or something like that.

   @Kai:

   I think troll was, in fact, a troll :-) You’re clearly one of the more reasonable people around here. For whatever it’s worth, I ignore all the people who just spout their own opinions but never stick around to defend them. There are idiots online in every country, I’m sure. I think too many people worry about things from a “China vs. the West [or US]” angle, when they should worry more about how to make things better for everyone and how to get along with other people even if they don’t agree with them. It’s hard enough to get a few friends to agree on a place to eat out, let alone to get the six billion people on Earth to agree on anything…

   Reply
9. Joe #2

   Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 7:13 am

   MTM wrote: “I want to whine about Tom and skydiggity whining about Kai’s whining. When will these whiners quit whining?”

   I prefer to whine about those who do not whine about themselves. That way, people get sucked into thinking about Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem and stop whining once you ask them whether or not such a person whines about themselves. Because if they do, they shouldn’t and if they don’t, they should.

   Reply
10. Mike

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 10:38 am

    To the disgruntled foreigners who read this… Chinese media is messed up, we all know, but there are good media sources out there, the internet is rarely one of them, and the stuff shown on Chinasmack, though true, is more simialr to a British tabloid than “real” news.

    Reply
11. Peteryang

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    its a real shame that every thread ends up being china vs foreign countries, chinasmack can be renamed to chinasmacked.

    Reply
12. Tom2

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Kai – thanks for your reply to my question – you certainly have a way with words

    Pimp – I get the feeling that you and Kai may have gotten different scores on your high school exams

    mtm – why so angry – the ‘laowai’ in china is always going through different stages of understanding, your response can only make them go backwards in their attitudes.

    Mike – 100% correct

    Peter Yang – 100% correct

    Chinasmack has its good days and bad, but it is always good fun for the fan of anything china. Maybe topics should be rated at the outset, as low, medium, and high for the level of seriousness.
    Officials asking kids out to lunch is a high level issue, while pole dancing, funny fruit, and some random photos of a library with no shelves should be in the low to medium basket. Perhaps Chinasmack can add a topic rating tab with each topic; we can then have a more cohesive conversation – less hate and more fun.

    Reply
13. too yellow

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Here is my 2 cents of China vs west college entrance issue trussed around here

    I never taken the Chinese test, but I “tutored” the English portion while I was visiting China. I seen my cousin been though this process and took one of her practice exam just for the hell of it. (failed the Chinese part miserably, aced the English part; barely passing Math part, did okay in the mixed portion. I was a junior in college at the time.) Comparing it to its American counterparts (I only talking about SAT here, but for a solid application a good collection of AP tests are pretty much a must), I have this to say:

    At least the Chinese tests have some slightly more useful questions that those stupid analogies they have on the SATs. (Why is that a measurement of anything!!!) Personally I think Math/Lit problem in the Chinese test are somewhat more useful than memorizing vocabularies like sesquipedalianism (which itself is an exercise of sesquipedalianism ) that constitutes pretty most of SAT study. And the Math portion, which in themselves are ridiculously easy compare to what’s been used in College, and comes with traps and trick are will never faced in college or real life. However, unlike China, SAT isn’t really taught as centerpiece in public school during junior and senior in High School. Which on the surface seems like a benefit of the American except- everyone in the junior who plans to go to a selective college will study their ass off for the test, while putting regular school work more or less on the back burner. (And the teachers knows this too, I feel the pace of classes generally slowed down in the 2nd semester of junior year) For those who could afford it; tutors are hired, classes like Princeton review are attended at the expense of thousands of the dollars. In private prep schools, at least from stories I heard in college the pressure seems to on par with those in China. Now how does that different than China, except the American one costs more?

    If I sounded mad, it’s because I’m studying for the GRE right now. I can’t believe after 4 years of college and 1 year work experience. I have deal with the same $%*# again, rather something more useful or relevant.

    I guess the moral of the story is any form of college entrance exam is stupid and irrelevant in real life. Their kept it for simple reason of lacking an alternative. (Or in US to keep the huge industry created by ETS, Princeton review and Barron’s etc alive) However, I would hate to see college entrance been based entirely on a pretty personal statement that the student probably never wrote or ability to throw a football around….

    Reply
14. Phobe Lexx

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    The Public School System is just a large animal Zoo except we put our children into it.

    Is this the way children have learned to walk and talk? By us teaching them? Or do they learn to do it on their own.

    The Worldwide Education System is in need of an overhaul due to everyone having the same ideas (dumb ideas) and no ideas of their own.

    Video (Do Schools Kill Creativity?)
    http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

    Reply
15. Mike

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    The list of “ivy league” schools in China is short… Tsinghua, Beida, Fudan, Nankai, Jiaoda, etc. To get into 2 or 3 of them for undergrad you might need an interview but most students at most of them get in based on their scores alone. Where as at any Ivy League or top-tier school in the US, UK, etc. you almost always have an undergard interview, high scores and extra-currricular are hugely important as well.

    Important %
    China: Scores 90%, other 10%
    US, UK: Scores 40%, Interview 30%, Extras 30%

    Just my opinion.

    Reply
16. Jay

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    @ too Yellow:
    I agree with your statement that standardized entrance exams are not good indicators for determining the chances of future success of the test takers. However I cannot dismiss the enormous benefit it brings for the test taker if he or she happens to do well on those tests. It’s a game we all must play in order to get what we want.

    @Mike:
    While I agree with your important % assessment for China, but I think the US, UK one is completely off. It should be something like this: Socioeconomic 40%, scores 30%, interview 10%, extras 20%. Socioeconomic includes children of alumni, parents’ level of education, economic background, social connection or influence of family. For example, if your parents have graduate degrees (MS or PHD), then you have a much higher chance of getting in. If your family works in the upper echelon of American capitalistic society, you also have a higher chance of getting in. If you are a figure skater who went to national competitions, then you can also get in. I think most ivys look to diversify their student body as much as possible and at the same time maintain a homogenous socioeconomic environment. I went to a magnet high school in NYC, and most ivys limit the number of students accepted from my school, because too many students satisfy their entrance criteria.

    so I really don’t know which countries’ system is better. American college system realizes that students from upper middle class income households have a better chance of doing well in the society. This is because upper middle income bracketed families usually are educated and can flex their socioeconomic muscles. Chinese system seems to place less emphasis on socioeconomic background than United States. Chinese system is definitely less discriminatory in this respect. I think the Chinese realizes that higher score represents hard work and dedication, but they fail to realize that sometimes it’s not how hard one works that determines that person’s level of success in society.

    Reply
17. jamar

    Sunday, February 8, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    …and my small question is immediately smothered in the momentum of the continuing debate…

    Reply
18. Kai

    Monday, February 9, 2009 at 12:13 am

    @ jamar:

    I’m not sure I fully understand your question. You’re contemplating going to Fudan or Jiatong INSTEAD of going BACK to the United States for college. This is because of your financial problems that make the “tremendously low tuition” of Chinese universities much more attractive. Yet, you feel you would “suffer” if you had to attend university in China. Have I understood everything correctly so far?

    If so, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “do I get to skip this?” Skip what?

    Reply
19. too yellow

    Monday, February 9, 2009 at 4:07 am

    @jamar,

    you’re probably asking wether or not you’ll have to the Gao Kao in China right. Well, the answer is rather convoluted. It depends on your major, and rather or not you wonna take the foreign student classes or the real one. If you just go the foreign route, you just needed take the Chinese Language proficiency exam for Liberal study type of majors, or if you future involves Math, the Math proficiency exam as well. If you wonna goes with regular classes in universities, you have take a internal exam as well (after you get in), which is on the par with Gao Kao, but I think the Chinese section isn’t as insane.

    Either way, you’re better off going for public university in the West. Since Chinese school tuition for for foreign kids more or less on the same level. And you’ll a better education than if you did with foreign student class in China. (according to my cousin, their program isn’t as rigorous, so don’t waste your time)

    Reply
20. Kai

    Monday, February 9, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Ah, too yellow, that would make sense of jamar’s question.

    Jamar, are you comparing tuition between what native Chinese students are paying or what a real international student would typically pay? Are you comparing that to public universities in the States or private universities? Do you qualify for any tax-breaks or cheaper in-state tuition at any universities back in the States?

    Reply
21. SC

    Tuesday, February 10, 2009 at 5:31 am

    @too yellow

    > I seen my cousin been though this process and took one of her practice exam just for the hell of it. (failed the Chinese part miserably, aced the English part; barely passing Math part, did okay in the mixed portion. I was a junior in college at the time.) Comparing it to its American counterparts (I only talking about SAT here, but for a solid application a good collection of AP tests are pretty much a must), I have this to say:

    Hmm, just how good are the English exams? I admit that your English is pretty good, but there are a few glaring things in your posts I simply wouldn’t mention if you hadn’t said that.

    > I seen my cousin been though this process
    “Seen” should be “saw,” unless you really meant that you visited them (in which case you would say that you “visited them during this process”).

    > memorizing vocabularies like sesquipedalianism (which itself is an exercise of sesquipedalianism)

    Should be “memorizing vocabluary” (or “memorizing words”) and “exercise of” should be “excercise in.”

    > And the Math portion, which in themselves are ridiculously easy compare to what’s been used in College, and comes with traps and trick are will never faced in college or real life.

    This whole sentence is strange. You can’t just change “themselves” to “itself” and “compare” to “compared” to fix it, even if you also make “math” and “college” lower case (neither one is a proper noun). Besides, while the problems are ridiculous examples, being able to use math in real world situations is helpful. Of course, my degree was in math and I use it every day (albeit in a job unrelated to mathematics).

    > However, unlike China, SAT isn’t really taught as centerpiece in public school during junior and senior in High School.

    You can’t teach a centerpiece; it’s an inanimate object. You should just say, “SAT isn’t the centerpiece of public schooling during the junior and senior year of high school.”

    > Now how does that different than China, except the American one costs more?

    This should read “Now, how is that different from China except that the American one costs more?”

    > At least the Chinese tests have some slightly more useful questions that those stupid analogies they have on the SATs. (Why is that a measurement of anything!!!)

    In theory, they test exactly how well you understand the definitions of those words. But I agree. They’re stupid.

    > If I sounded mad, it’s because I’m studying for the GRE right now. I can’t believe after 4 years of college and 1 year work experience. I have deal with the same $%*# again, rather something more useful or relevant.

    My condolences on the GRE. You can’t put that period after experience, though. It should read, “I can’t believe that, after 4 years of college and 1 year of working, I have to deal with the same $%@^ again, rather than doing something more useful or relevant.”

    > Their kept it for simple reason of lacking an alternative.

    True. But you meant to write, “They keep it because they have no alternative.”

    > However, I would hate to see college entrance been based entirely on a pretty personal statement that the student probably never wrote or ability to throw a football around….

    The word “been” should be “being” and ability should be “someone’s ability” (because, otherwise, your clauses don’t match). That said, I agree with you that college admissions are already based too much on some of those things. But as long as the sports teams bring in money for the school, I’m afraid that will continue.

    > It depends on your major, and rather or not you wonna take the foreign student classes or the real one

    The slang version of “want to” is “wanna,” but I don’t recommend using it. Ever. Saying “want to” is never inappropriate, but saying “wanna” can be inappropriate.

    > And you’ll a better education than if you did with foreign student class in China

    This should read, “And you’ll get a better education than if you went to a foreign student class in China.”

    Even though I pointed all this out, I will mention again that your English is very good overall. I only pointed this out so that you don’t get complacent about improving your English after acing those tests :)

    Reply
22. jamar

    Thursday, February 12, 2009 at 10:01 am

    @everyone- Because of some complex family issues I’m less than capable of paying full tuition at the university I originally got accepted to (long story short, before things went south my parents intended on paying for my university education at a nice private college in LA- tuition sat at a good $40K with no aid; I saw things coming and asked my parents to let me go to the cheaper public university I also got accepted to -with scholarship- but they won’t let me; insisted on a private school- look where that went). No tax breaks, and the in-state tuition in California is still some US$8000.

    And somehow tuition at Jiao Tong is only 20000RMB. So I’m stuck with that or Fudan. Because my parents insist. Despite me going to school in the States and international schools for most of my life (apart from one year in a Chinese elementary school).

    But thanks everyone, your help is much appreciated.

    Reply
23. Teacher in China

    Monday, February 16, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    I’m in late for this one, but I’d like to throw my support in for Kai – overall a pretty reasonable guy with interesting posts.

    In regards to the subject matter of the post, I’m a bit conflicted. Sure, there are problems with the Chinese education system. Training kids to take the test is not a good use of time. That’s always a problem with standardized tests, even back in the West. Some teachers panic too much about them, and “teach to the test”. The mark of an excellent and worthy standardized test is that you don’t have to specifically “teach it”, the students will naturally be able to perform well on it just by doing the course material over the course of the year. Making these tests, and whether or not they should even exist at all, is still a huge topic of debate in the west (I remember having heated arguments in university education classes about this).

    That being said, there has to be a way for China to weed out the millions of applicants they get every year, and a standardized test does that job. And since any decent teacher cares about his/her student’s welfare, it’s not surprising that kids are being taught how to pass the test instead of learning other things more critical to being a life-long learner.

    It’s a bit of a conundrum. Although, I had an idea when I was reading some of the posts here on ChinaSmack. Someone said making a better test would mean needing an army of people to mark it (or something like that) – how about all of those university graduates who don’t have jobs, can’t get jobs, have no hope of finding jobs? Put them to work marking new, more authentic standardized tests. Of course, they would need to be trained how to do so, which means more jobs for the people doing the training.

    In regards to the state of the Chinese education system itself, I’d like to offer one note of optimism. I’ve been teaching here in China now for 3 1/2 years, at a dual diploma school. I’ve seen, slowly but surely, changes happening in the Chinese side of the school. These changes are encouraging because I see less emphasis being put on exams, and more being put on assignments; I also see more willingness to display creativity in the classroom on the walls. Yes, these are small steps, but like Kai said, the changes in our system in the West didn’t happen overnight; and in fact, things are still changing in our education system almost every year as we struggle to find “the perfect way” to educate young people.

    Reply
24. Upal Deb

    Tuesday, February 17, 2009 at 3:03 am

    Your photographs deserve kudos.Entrance tests have become the new buzzword all over the world.The typical classical conception of knowledge being a source of all-round humanising spirit seems to have given way to an idea that grasping some specialized bytes helps one “successful”.Indeed,we should move with time.But China with its hugely rich heritage can show us the way.
    Photos capturing hopefuls drowned in books certainly do not convince us that they are seeking knowledge.To me…they represent a culture which prepares one for unsavoury rat-race for few pay-packages dangling before their eyes.T.S.Eliot was right when he said long ago that information would pass as knowledge in future.I wonder what Confucius would have said.Surely,his Analects might not have been what we get.

    Reply
25. shopgirl

    Saturday, February 21, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    they need to do this just because they lack general knowledge about anything.

    ask a college student about the holocaust, she will hardly know anything about it.

    Reply
26. shopgirls shanghai

    Saturday, February 21, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    besides, who can blame them? they need to remember what happened in china for the past 5000 years.

    Reply
27. eyeofaughra

    Sunday, February 22, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Reply