Emperor Qianlong’s Jade Imperial Seal In London Auction

BRITAIN-CHINA-ENT-ARTS-AUCTION

Earlier this year at a Christie’s auction regarding the sell of two bronze Zodiac Heads caused uproars of nationalistic sentiments online. Today, another auction at the Sotheby’s Auction House in London once again provoked in the minds of the Chinese netizens the past histories of humiliation and loss. The main item of attraction is Emperor Qianlong’s own jade seal, estimated to fetch up to 600,000 British Pounds. Historically, the Imperial Seal represents the very raison d’être of a dynasty. In fact, the character for country “国” contained the character “玉”, or jade, as a important symbol for national legitimacy. In addition, the other item up for auction includes chinaware and ironically relics from the Cultural Revolution.

From ifeng:

November 2nd, attendants at London’s Sotheby’s Auction House displayed Qing Dynasty Qianlong “Treasure of eight journey and perennial thoughts”, Cross Dragon Imperial Seal and the Tianqing Jade Seal (Estimated: 400,000 and 600,000 Pound). London’s Sotheby’s Auction House will on November 4th 2009 hold an auction of Chinese porcelain and handcraft. Items up for auction includes Han Dynasty glazed horses, Qianlong Imperial Seals, and Cultural Revolution Era relics.

Auction house worker displaying the underside of the jade seal.

Auction house worker displaying the underside of the jade seal.

Part of the collection at the auction, two-piece of Qing era Jade sceptre.

Part of the collection at the auction, two-piece of Qing era Jade sceptre.

Inspecting the collection at the auction, to the right is Han Dynasty era glazed horse figurine.

Inspecting the collection at the auction, to the right is a Han Dynasty era glazed horse figurine.

Local time November 2nd, 2009. London, England, Workers at Sotheby's Auction House displayed a poster, on it wrote: America's invasion of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam is an invasion of China.

Local time November 2nd, 2009. London, England, Workers at Sotheby's Auction House displayed a poster, on it wrote: America's invasion of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam is an invasion of China.

Local time November 2nd, 2009. London, England, Workers at Sotheby's Auction House displayed works of Chinese porcelain, depicting Mao Zedong and peasant students together.

Local time November 2nd, 2009. London, England, Workers at Sotheby's Auction House displayed works of Chinese porcelain, depicting Mao Zedong and peasant students together.

Comments from ifeng:

大漠沙尘:

This is the true face of Western thieves under the guise of culture and human rights! Look at those finely dressed savages! Chinese people will take back everything that once belonged to us!

cqyangz:

Shameless British people; Humiliating chapter in recent Chinese history.

莲花如梦:

When did these treasures flow abroad???

山丁子:

Western democracy is built on the foundation of theft.

litielei:

This you cannot blame on others, who let our government at the time be so worthless. In the future when we are strong, we will take it back from their hands.

fenghuangpy:

That poster must be a joke! I do not even know how they obtained it.

a6798024:

The Old Summer Palace is a national humiliation, but it does have bad and good outcomes. If those relics were not looted, then they will probably be destroyed in the extermination campaigns during the Culture Revolution.

jobenc:

Our diplomats can only “Protest strongly regarding this matter”, can’t do much else.

Comments from NetEase:

网易陕西榆林网友:

Westerners like to boast their civilization and morality; do not spit on the street, do not throw trash everywhere, and look down on Chinese people’s qualities. In reality, the uncivilized and greedy ones are them. In the past, those who killed all the Native Americans, exported opium across the world, colonized the whole globe, kill and looted everywhere. Aren’t those people their [Westerner] ancestors? Those born of wild animals, will always be animals, what civilization can they have.

网易海南海口网友:

Never forget national humiliation~~

网易广东深圳网友:

That bird [Mao], purposely act as if he is a head taller than the peasants, scum, why don’t he put on a Dragon robe [Imperial]!

网易山东烟台网友:

The Eight Nation Alliance were really low class, loot if you want, but why smash and burn the thing you can’t carry. Despicable, give us back the Old Summer Palace.

网易山东济南网友:

Now is not America invading Vietnam, nor China protecting Vietnam, now is Vietnam intruding on China!!!

网易陕西西安网友:

Wow, Mao really must’ve been a great man, that height is at least 2 meters right?

The Imperial Seal was sold today (November 5th) for 3.15 million British Pounds.

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  1. “Testing”

    also First

  2. why people on this forum soooo racist?Everyone have faults it is not like china didnt have an ill past and did some disgusting things.

    • Racism? Why is it racism to demand return of looted artifacts.

      • well when china demand return looted artifacts. Who is going to return Tibetians and Uyghurs their “land”. Afterall they think they stole it from them. =p Just get on in life, almost 75% countries got took advantage by Colonism. It reflects a difficult time in history, and either u buy them back or u go kill them back for it (like how they did do to u, obvs a joke). But realli, i think China should focuz on feeding and improving her ppls education that worry about something in the past, that is no longer urs for the time being.

        • lol, I like MAOCUNT try to turn things around. The fact is that what the British are doing is Inmoral and by claiming that it belongs to them and not of China anymore, just confirm what your culture is. If I stole something from you ten years ago then you should forget it cause it is the past? This sickens me! You are trying to compare Uyghurs/Tibetans/Han issue with this issue is just futile, cause it is in no way similar. And if the CCP really stole from them, still they aren ot selling it to anyone who is offering the highest bid. It’s a shame what you are doing, really.

          • Well, there is a reason why there is a statute of limitations.

          • Hahahaha are you trying to sound smart Bleah? Simply hilarious.

            1. The statute of limitations is hardly international law. You would have a hard time trying to impose it in this case.

            2. You don’t even know how the SOL works. :) I would hardly call this a case of adverse possession. In any case we aren’t talking about where a person has discontinued use of land or given up their rights and obligations. In fact, we arent dealing with land at all, so the SOL wouldn’t even apply.

            Even if this was about land (which it isnt), there are express conditiosn in the statute that prevents the SOL from taking effect where possession is taken by coercion, without consent or in secret.

            I love it when laymen think they can interpret the law :)

          • Bro, I aint stealing from a anyone. Maybe I should be more specfic. By stating the tibet and Uyghur issue, I am simply trying although Chinese think that they have been taken advantaged off. The Chinese take advantage of other race too. Just go think in somebody’s boot, ur average tibetian-in-exile will think China stole Potala Palace and honestly do u think chinese musuem have no spoil of wars from neighbouring countries? China may not be bidding on tibet, but aint they exploiting its natural resources!? I don’t agree with what British did in the past, but by all honestly, it is history. It will be nice for British to give back this artefacts but they r not obliged too. I dont think you will understand my reasons (since i am looking at it through the legal stance while you look at it more on the nationalistic stance) and i really hate to start an agrument over this. I think there is a grey area over this matter but by all means like the some ppl here have alrdy suggest, the statute of limitations prevail. It may not be an international law,but when if you going to court over this, you prob end up in a british court anyways 0_-.

            And seriously, chinese shouldnt do what they did like last time (the merchant in france who bid and didnt pay, saying it for nationalistic reasons). It is actually really rude and immature. If China really want these statues back, they should buy them back, and show the world they follow the rules.

            And really =p, isn’t Qianlong a manchu? I thought during the last days of Qing, the Hans have suggest we chased them back to the mountains, why do they want “a a barbarian king’s seal” back? (the last paragraph is obviously a joke, saying this b4 hand so i dun get spam by hot headed nationalistic youths.)

          • What is the ‘rule’ you refers here? I don’t have of background in the law, but I do not understand the logic that the exploited should pay money to the exploiter for the returning of an item that is rightfully his.

            Also, I think you have grossly misunderstand the concept of China (中華) here. China does not mean Han (which is also not an ethnicity tied by blood). Nearly all Chinese dynasties were founded by different ethnic group. The imperial family of Qing dynasty might not consider themselves as Han, but they definitely considered themselves as Chinese (which is in fact, mentioned all over Qing dynasty imperial decree through its existence). So please stop trying the Western concept of race in this debate.

            Finally, as I mentioned repetitively in this debate, the wrong Chinese government made does not justify the thievery of European powers regarding to the stolen relics.

          • Wu, lets cut the “law” thing to make things simple. Arguing logicaly, the exploiter is long dead. Second, the relic is stolen from the Qing court, so logically speaking unless some qing noble show up and claim it back; chinese cant realli start a fuzz about it. (you should know chinese history, you should know chinese emperors never like to share, so the seal was never a national property) using your logic about China, the exploiter is no longer here, the person who have it now may or may not be her descendent. Why do he/she give it back just because you say they stole from your great grandpa? Chinese should think about those comments before calling the other parties as theives. Like I said before, this is a “grey area”, don’t just assume the other party is being a douche for no reason. Seriously, the guy in france last time, he may look like a hero in china, but in other part of the world he simply is an immature asshole trying to screw up a bid.

            But, please dun get me wrong, i don’t support this activity. UK shouldve return this artifacts. In fact, there is a growing concern in the archaeological community about issues such as this in the western academics. And the general sway goes in supporting the repatriation of “spoils” during colonialism. Musuems in France and UK have repatriated some artefacts to countries such as Egypt and such, but the progress is slow…and at many times you can clearly see sadly that Capitalism prevails all.

            Spare me that the concept of China thing(中華), i alrdy said the manchu thing was a joke. But it is intresting to noted something out. First, “Han” Chinese dynasties are dominant throughout 4k years of Chinese history. There is only 2 major diff ethnic dynasty, the Yuan and the Qing, and during their rule the Han majority always make a big fuzz about it. If you look back at history,the Hans have the same attitudes as tibetians and Uyghurs have to Hans now. the concept of “chinese” is relatively new, and by all honestly, i am no expert in it. I simply think many “Han” Chinese are being ethnocentric, and never look at things in other ppls shoe. Many problems couldve been solved if theyve taken more considerations. And “Han” Chinese is the leader of China, so they shoulder more of that responsiblity, just like the “White man’s burden”, just think of it as the “Han’s burden”. Okay, i will stfu, not gonna reply anymore, b4 i flood this page.

          • What about all the Russian churches that were destroyed in Harbin, Jean?

          • Jean,

            If you are going to make a lose comment like that, then please identify a country or people that has not taken advantage of someone else. Switzerland-Nazi Gold, Togo-the treasure of Bamako, all European countries, Japan, yes, even China have taken something and sold it, etc. This is human nature, wherever in the world you go.

        • F8kDalaiL@ma (aka Charles)

          Tibet and Xin Jiang have always belonged to China. Get your facts straight son ;)

          • In my country the SOL is applied on anything in private and criminal law, except murder (life sentence delicts).

            It may not be international law, but there is still a reason for its existence in many countries, you know what I mean?

          • Bro, I aint stealing from anyone.

            - I should point out that I’m not your sibling and what are you being accused of stealing?

            average tibetian-in-exile

            - yes, just like the average american in exile. Because we all know how Tibetans like all races are are exiled on a daily basis.

            it is history

            Yes, so selective memory is your weapon of choice huh? So you wouldn’t care if I r@ped your mom and then said it is history five years later?

            they r not obliged too

            - are you sure you are old enough ‘too’ write in this site? Or are you like, ten?

            i really hate to start an agrument over this

            - Oh really? I know, its hard to defend an ‘agrument’, especially since you can’t even spell it.

            the statute of limitations prevail

            - No it doesn’t… Funny how you say you’ve been reading what others have been writing, but only selectively. Oh and you forgot the word ‘will’ between ‘limitations’ and ‘prevail’. If you need any help in English, I’m happy to help son.

            (the last paragraph is obviously a joke, saying this b4 hand so i dun get spam by hot headed nationalistic youths.)

            Yes, how is this different from saying to a black man ‘you black car jacking pos’ and then saying (this is a joke, so i don’t get spammed by hot headed niggers). What you wrote isnt a joke, you are the joke.

            To Bleah

            In my country the SOL is applied on anything in private and criminal law, except murder (life sentence delicts).

            - You can start off with telling me what your country is, and then quote the section if you want to attach any credibility to your claim.

            And are you conveniently trying to ignore my previous statment that:

            Even if this was about land (which it isnt), there are express conditiosn in the statute that prevents the SOL from taking effect where possession is taken by coercion, without consent or in secret.

          • Singapore should be returned to Malaysia, just as Hong Kong was returned to China.

            Of course, all the Chinese in Singapore must leave …

        • Yea too bad Tibet is a backwater place with almost nothing going for it.

          • ” so i dun get spam by hot headed nationalistic youths.)

            Yes, how is this different from saying to a black man ‘you black car jacking pos’ and then saying (this is a joke, so i don’t get spammed by hot headed niggers). What you wrote isnt a joke, you are the joke.”
            ________________________________
            WTF? YOU ARE THE JOKE. How is this relevant in ANY way? You can’t even draw a parallel between the situations correctly…

          • @Crysis
            So you are comparing hot head natonalistic youths to black ppl. That is injustice, your everyday black ppl is so much cooler!

            Btw, Crysis, your reply have some grammatical errors also. Considering you are trying to correct someone, thats pretty sad. And considering this isnt formal, i dont see whats a fuzz about making spelling/grammartical errors in their comments as long as it is readable.

        • hey whitecunt can you white people return USA to the indians instead of giving them a worthless shit reservations? fuck you white people.

  3. as one poster said, if it wasn’t for the non-existent government at the time, these treasures would have never been taken. but i’m glad they were as they would’ve been destroyed during the cultural revolution.

    • Exactly, these items that the chinese so treasure today would most definitely have been destroyed during the madness of the cultural revolution. You should be thanking the governments/people who’ve saved and cherished these items and kept them from the destructive grasp of the red hands that would have destroyed them.

      • So you two are implying that they should never give back these treasures? It’s so hypocrite the way French and British handling these situations. I mean, just because they are from the “West” and you are part of them, doens’t mean that you should support them whatever thing they do.

        Btw, the Western powers in the late 19th century didn’t have the intention of keeping those stuffs just to keep them away from being destroyed. They got them by stealing them. And if they really had the good intentions of keeping them from being destroyed, then I am sure that you would be willing to hand them back to their rightful owner.

        I prefer those treasures beind handed back to China, their righful owner, if it’s not possible, then some foreign museum should keep them, rather than selling it to someone.

        • I prefer those treasures beind handed back to China

          Which China? The Republic of China?

          • Actually, the Republic of China does have majority of the Old Palace’s artifacts. The Palace Museum in Taipei is actually the largest (in term of numbers of artifact) Chinese museum. Both R.O.C. and P.R.C. administrations have right to demand the return of such artifact as the representative of Chinese people. R.O.C. is actually actively buying/demanding the returns of Chinese artifacts. However in my opinion, this particular artifact should return to its original place – the Old Palace at Beijing, where this Seal was actually used; it is at that place the historical value of this relic would be substantiated.

          • The People’s Republic of China holds sovereignty over greater China including the area currently governed by the Republic of China. As the PRC has sole legitimate ownership based on the international law, the artefacts should return to them.

          • However in my opinion, this particular artifact should return to its original place – the Old Palace at Beijing, where this Seal was actually used; it is at that place the historical value of this relic would be substantiated.

            It was used at the time of the Qing Dynasty, so why not return it to the next relatives of the last emperor of China?

          • To bleah:
            While you are at it, should we also return the Chinese sovereignty back to the earliest Imperial lineage in China? The last emperor of Qing had already given the right over the Old Palace to the government Republic of China, if I remembered right.

            To Charles:

            You got the point that the PRC regime currently represents most of Chinese people. In order to let as many Chinese have access to this relic as possible, it should be return to the mainland. I was just saying that ROC also has the right to demand the return of this artifact from this European auction.

            To xmcx:

            The official government that rules the island of Taiwan is the Republic of ‘CHINA”. While PRC might not have the right over the political sovereignty over Taiwan, CHINA definitely does

            The mainland Chinese is as sheepish as most of people around the world who lives under an established institution.

            Finally, the Japanese colonial rule over Taiwan could be described as many thing, but ‘benevolence’ is not one of them.

          • It doesn’t matter if it is PRC or ROC, as long as it is handed back to Chinese.

      • Give them back after China has “earned” them. Not a moment sooner.

    • This statement lacks both logical and historical bases. First, the Western world is no way a more ‘relic friendly’ environment. Precious artifacts from around the world were destroyed in the air raids of WWII (for example, hundreds of famous Magao paintings were destroyed in Berlin by both Ally and Russian bombings.) “Thanks” to European colonial legacy, the relics destroyed in the European theatre were from around the world.

      Second, though a lot of relics were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution, the artifacts from the Palace Museum (where this particular Jade Seal would otherwise belonged to) were well-protected. If my memory served right, Red Guards were forbidden to enter the Old Palace.

      What fault China has conducted from the past or present has nothing to do with blatant injustices conducted by the European/British authorities in such auctions. Chinese has as much right to be furious about such shameful act as a Tibetan being furious toward the injustice done toward them. Western viewers, however, has little ground to complain about anything in either cases.

  4. In the poster about Vietnam, who is holding the middle gun? Unless the worker is holding the People’s Daily in one hand and the weapon behind his back, it doesn’t make sense!

    DWR

  5. Should be returned to China. All of Sotheby’s relics were stolen from their respective countries – Egypt, Greece, etc..

    • Oh and innocent China didn’t maybe steal that chunk of jade from some Burmese or Khmer people? The nice Egyptians didn’t conquer and loot other places to get the gold for sarcophigi? And the kindly Greeks… I’m sure none of their treasures were the spoils of war…

      I love the turning the tables on the current empires and making the old empires sound so innocent and taken advantage of. China, Egypt, and Greece, not to mention the Turks, Iranians, and every other group who might whine or complain about the west stealing from them, robbed, raped, and pillaged their way to be an empire in the past. Those great old regimes did it more brutally and more destructively than the French or Brits could ever have dreamed of! Go read a fucking book! and have a nice night.

      • Try to enlighten me here, Mr. Fish, could you name a single Old Empire that had exploited, enslaved, and caused the deaths of the same % of “world population” as the colonial Britain, France, Netherlands, etc?

        I mean, I am talking about enslavement of Africa, India, South Asia, exploitation of East Asia and Middle East, and outright genocides in the North and South America here.

        The only “old” Empire that probably got anywhere close was probably our friendly neighborhood Mongolian Empire our friend g Khan so proudly boasting about. And even the Great Khan could not extend his whip as far-reaching and prolonged as the ‘civilized’ West.

        • So what’s your qualification for “bad” and “evil”? What percent becomes as evil as you want? I named the Empires already. Do you seriously suggest Egypt, Greece, Persia, Mughal India, Han, Tang, or Song China, etc. etc., were benign and innocent? They didn’t have slaves? They didn’t oppress or exploit anyone they could? Whether by numbers, percentages, percentage of world population at the time, or whatever, Britain would loose to them hands down. Britain did all the bad things, I’m not arguing that, and they controlled an area rivaled only by the Mongols, but where did they ever rival Alexander the Great or even Ashoka in mayhem and murder? Go read a book!

          • Do you know what the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples 2007 is? 143 countries in UN General Assembly signed AYE, the rest abstained, but USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (all proxies of England) flatly * REFUSED * to sign.

            USA and Canada belong to Native Ameri-Indian Peoples :
            The Blackfeet own Montana. The Apache owned Arizona, the Seminoles owned Florida. The Chippewa owned Michigan, the Cree owned Canada etc..

            Australia belongs to the Aboriginese. New Zealand belongs to the Maoris.

            The Antilles and ‘Spanish Latin America’ belong to the Arawak, Maya, the Aztec, the Inca etc.. They brought disease and slaughtered millions, stole and sent back tons of gold and silver to Europe.

            Egypt, Greece, Persia, Mughal India, Han, Tang, or Song China, etc. etc., may not always have been benign and innocent but their crimes against humanity have never reached a scale as described above. Shame on the Caucaso-Western hegemony.

            England STILL DOES all the bad things but from behind her proxies, and has not released it’s colonial grip on the peoples of these 4 mentioned nations.

            If any other ‘Mike Fish’ feel so strongly about issues like these then as * Colonial Occupiers * of USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Antilles, Africa, they should take the moral action and start packing up and repatriating themselves to Europe so that these First Peoples will have AUTONOMY and SOVEREIGNTY as is their right alongside the rest of Humanity.

            So do tell, AFTER they have left these OCCUPIED LANDS, how much compensation should the Caucaso-Western Colonizers to give what remains of the First Peoples for the genocide, destruction of their civilisations and centuries of occupation?

            Skin may be white but reputation is as black as the devils heart. Why are you still occupying these lands? Go home to Europe! Go read a book indeed . . .

          • Master C…
            Some people really have a one track mind. They want to argue their point whether someone is for or against their point, no matter what. It’s a fact that those place uses to belong to those people. You miss the fact that THEY, stole it from someone else. Would you defend the rights of the last remaining indigenous West Indian’s, the Caribe of St. Lucia? The Caribe were violent conquering cannibals who would have obliterated the Arawak if they could have and might have eventually if Columbus hadn’t done it for them. Or the Maori? Are you joking? The Maori took New Zealand from its previous native inhabitants just decades before the White people showed up. And the Seminoles? Seriously? They lived in Florida for how long? 100 years maybe?

            Seems you only know the really basic pop history you might get out a history 101 that likes to try and blame humanity’s problems on one or two empires like Britain or the US. Let’s forget about Britain for a second. We could argue forever about how much better off the survivors of their evil are than they would have been. I’m sure all of those native people would much rather be back in the stone age with a life expectancy of 45, zero rights for women, and such, but I’m not really here to argue about whether Britain did bad or not. Everyone and their ignorant cousin knows they did. They know they did.

            China already had 4000 years of documented history before England ever became a unified state. China, even if you don’t include the Yuan Dynasty of the Mongols, had territory from Central Asia to Korea to Vietnam, and they had that territory for a long time. Plus, what is now China use to be hundreds if not thousands of other peoples and nations that were either assimilated or obliterated by the Chinese. That’s the main point here. China and or Chinese whining about British colonialism is hilarious, hypocritical, and utterly ridiculous. China became a homogenous nation by “taming” its wild mountain tribes. There are 55 offcial non-Han peoples left in China today. Imagine how many more their used to be.

            Read up on ancient Egypt, Persia, and Greece… you obviously don’t know shit.

          • That is something you and your kind obviously know alot about. All those who know what was said will stand on the side of justice. The rest will get what they deserve.

          • Master C… me and my kind? You are making alot of assumptions and offering no argument. Did you read past the point where in all of my comments I said Britain’s colonialism sucked but that the societies that have been painted as innocent victims need to have their brutal imperial histories considered as well? It’s not a contest that can be won or lost, with one society or civilization or nation coming out as the better or worse. We all have a past that often comes from something far worse. People get stuck on the easy targets, the ones that the most people write books and make movies about rather than digging into the past and making their own decisions. Your idea that Britain is the evilest entity ever and that all the peoples they displaced were innocent noble savages living the romantic good life is so tired, especially when those peoples themselves don’t want to be treated or percieved as such. You think the Maori want to be seen as wimps that got “taken” by the Brits? They got beat by superior fire power and disease, plain and simple. The Maori beat the people before them the same way. What do you say to that? Nothing. You have nothing.

          • Much the way Lions despite coming from Africa have been stolen for heraldic devices in so many Caucaso-Western factions, there WILL be SOMETHING, and when SOMETHING happens it won’t just be the 143 signatories, INGOs and activists highlighting these wrongdoings.

            So do right thing, admit, repent and take the moral high ground and initiative to right centuries of injustices. Stop putting a spin on genocide, holocausts and occupations which belong in the International Criminal Court.

            (1) ” Your idea that Britain is the evilest entity ever . . . ”

            Why did England’s 4 proxy Nations, of which 3 consider the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha their sovereigns, not sign the very fairly worded United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples 2007 if they were such saints?

            (2) ” . . . especially when those peoples themselves don’t want to be treated or perceived as such. You think the Maori want to be seen as wimps that got “taken” by the Brits? . . . ”

            Reverse psychology fails. Give them back their sovereignty as is their human right. Reparations will be * calculated * later.

            (3) They got beat by superior fire power and disease, plain and simple.

            Implies there was someone doing the ‘beating’ and bringing the ‘disease’. Neither can be justified.

            Did someone say nothing?

          • Master C… nice to finally get something of a reply.

            1. lions lived throughout Europe into human pre-history making them a valid primordial symbol of power and fear that would have even less to do with Africa if it wasn’t for the fact that lions as a symbol of power are more likely from India and Persia, where they were consistently emblems of national power and identity, than from Africa. Did you know that the Asiatic lion still lives in India today and NO it wasn’t stolen from Africa and transplanted there by the Brits. Not everything is their fault.

            2. you must be the only one who could get me suggesting Brits are saints from me condemning their history everytime I write. Using your simplistic analogy I’ll clarify, they are devils, as are the majority of civilizations, including the ones the Brits conquered.

            3. what percentage of those indigenous people truely would like to kick out the “foreigners” and start over on their own? How is that possible? Where to begin? Take all of their contributions with them as well? Then do they give back sovereignty to the peoples they originally stole the land from. Hypothetical, the Brits and Dutch leave SA and return it to the original people. Who, the Zulu? They stole it from the San. Who’d the San originally steal it from? A great idea, payback, but where does it end and where does it begin. Since humanity started from Africa, does that mean Africa owes everyone that has ever suffered, at the hands of some idiot human, reperations?

            4. I did no justifying. I did not say anyone deserved what they got. I pointed out that it happened. You seem to keep suggesting that every nation or civilization that got man-handled by the Brits didn’t deserve it. That’s subjective and biased from the get go. Me pointing out that some of the people that the Brits conquered previously conqured others is not biased. Just a fact. I wish all of them had made love not war.

            5. since you are so set on the Brits signing that UN Declaration, as if signing it would mean anything to the past, what would you do if they did sign it? Start loving them? Forgive them? Find a new bunch of imperialists to hate on?

            6. Did you ever even see the point of my original comment? One that I have emphasized and reiterated each time. China, the queen mother of all Empires, which it proudly proclaims in all its media and propoganda, with its 5000 years of continuous documented history, a history of conquest, nation conquering, culture destruction, and people assimilation, probably is a bit hypocritical in criticising the Brits for what is compared to Chinese history, a very short reign of imperialism and colonialism.

            7. since you are likely still mad about the lion comment, you probably thought everything cool and badass in the world came from Africa, I’ll guess you don’t read this far

          • Replying is the least I can do for the readers.

            1. Moot point.

            2. Even devils have a hierarchy.

            3. Take all of their contributions with them as well? They have no right because those contributions will be the tip of the iceberg in reparations.

            3.1 They stole it from the San. Localised conflicts are natural to a degree. Foreign players who cause genocide, subsume religions and destroy culture are not the same.

            4. You seem to keep suggesting that every nation or civilization that got man-handled by the Brits didn’t deserve it.

            Your choice of words indicate much.

            5. since you are so set on the Brits signing that UN Declaration, as if signing it would mean anything to the past, what would you do if they did sign it?

            Sign it first, then talk. Pay the reparations, repartriate then let those colonized decide if they were sincere or deserve to be hated still.

            6. See no.3

            7. The only cool and badass is the emancipation of peoples in the grip of colonial powers.

            Lions when are the heritage of countries they are native to and are a non-issue if displayed.

            The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples 2007 still awaits signing, peoples who still have no Sovereignty languish under occupation while evil men steal their resources . . .

            Hope this ‘discussion’ has raised the awareness of the readers on the kind of people we are dealing with. Not all Caucaso-Westerners will deny and justify in this shameless manner and repent, but those that continue such actions are the ones to be watched, countered and expelled to release their grip.

            Freedom and equality to all who stand with the just. And as said before, the rest will get what they deserve.

          • Master C… who are you arguing with? About what? You are still focused on saying I said something I didn’t and can’t quote me for it anywhere. I justify nothing, am not a Brit, and said nothing positive abou the Brits or their Empire.

            Did you ever get around to thinking about my point on China? Why can’t you address it? Just because the Britsh Empire was the worst thing ever in history means we can’t talk about China’s hypocricy? It’s like saying because McDonald’s food is greasy and un-healthy we can’t talk about how greasy and un-healthy KFC’s is.

            You sir, are a bore.

          • Who are you arguing with?
            Wasn’t aware there was an arguement?

            Arguing about what?
            Still asleep?

            still focused on saying I said something I didn’t and can’t quote me for it anywhere.
            Read between the lines.

            Did you ever get around to thinking about my point on China? Why can’t you address it?
            I have addressed it, either you did not notice or acknowledge.

            Just because the Britsh Empire was the worst thing ever in history means we can’t talk about China’s hypocricy?
            Why is the focus on China’s supposed hypocrisy when others have not owned up to centuries worth of wrongs and not making amends?

            China doesn’t pretend that other countries have no right to own nuclear weapons (while embracing the 2nd Amendment), doesn’t invade other countries on the same pretext, doesn’t cause bankruptcies and subsequent dependencies in poor nations with IMF, doesn’t poison occupied lands with depleted uranium, doesn’t sterilze their citizens with deuterized pharmaceuticals and doesn’t inject children of their citizens with autism causing vaccines. (They do have 1 child policy though).

            These are very real outstanding issues, (like the refusal to sign the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples 2007) that show the world that Caucaso-Westerner’s house is not in order. How can they presume to tell China or the Chinese they have issues or are hypocrits?

            You, dear man, are an NWO zombie.

      • Mike

        Welcome to a discussion on China and the rest of the world… China does no wrong, it is all caused by someone else, China is a victim, China has always been this size and we have always had a harmonious society, etc, etc, ad nauseum…..

        Nationalism rules… with few exceptions it is hard to have a truely logical conversation here about such things.

        • China had closed its doors and not communicated with the world in centuries. What wrong was China doing? A right not to associate should be respected. A neutral and peaceful stance if any.

          If England did not buy so much tea that it could not afford, and had engineered the Opium Wars to balance it’s accounts, which prompted other nations to attempt to annexe it’s territories, China would have been just fine, although it’s doors would never have opened either.

          So after all that has happened, are the Chinese and China or any other Colonial occupied nation (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Antilles) supposed to not feel anything? Nationalism is a very mild response to what has happened IMHO. And even then Nationalism is only used to counter these ‘soft intrusions’ so many nations keep facing.

          Want to prove otherwise? Fine. Lets see these 4 proxies sign the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples 2007 first and talk about reparations and repartriations first, then we’ll know if anything has changed. Otherwise, do expect, outside of normal courtesies extended to fellow humans, to be treated as pariahs for a very long time to come.

          Theres your logical conversation.

          • Master C… When had China not communicated with the world in centuries? Oh wait, you must get you history from kungfu movies or something. You are only off by a few centuries. Also, who colonized China? Maybe a few tiny parts. The Brits and Portuguese had a few islands that China HAS gotten back, but other than that, WHO colonized China? The Japanese. The Chinese on the other have colonized and some would argue are still colonizing Mongol land, Korean land, Siberia land, Kurkestan, Tibet, Vietnam, parts of India, numerous islands claimed by Taiwan and the Philipines. No one in China, even the most rabid nationalist, ever claims China was colonized by anyone other than the Japanese.

            You just can’t imagine that all of the problems of the world can’t be blamed on the Brits and Americans( or according to you the Caucasian ones). Constantly pulling that card out is simplistic and truely bigoted.

            Please, reveal the amazing powers of deduction, or assumption, that allowed you to figure out I am a Caucaso-Westerner. Which comment revealed it? I’ll give you a clue about whether you are right or wrong… 如果我是一个“白族西方人”你吃狗屎。。。其实,你是吃狗屎的。。。所以。。。

          • Who knows or cares who you are? Non-native speakers of either language exist everywhere.

            Critical items and events will continue to be highlighted to give readers more information to better judge and counter what disinformation fifth columnists or propagandists working for colonialistic or hegemonist factions in the Caucaso-Western sphere intend to put a spin on.

            ” You just can’t imagine that all of the problems of the world can’t be blamed on the Brits and Americans . . . ”

            You mean can? Who was imagining what? Or is that a guilty conscience, parlance admission, speaking?

            Finally, please do not introduce your potty mouthed and unhealthy fetish for 狗屎 here. It may be normal where you come from but not here. Someone pass the Chinese soap and a Chinese toilet brush to wash that out? It’s making a stink.

            For the non-Chinese users who didn’t know and bothered to look it up, congrats. Our fellow here has taught you all a new word today, remember M.F.’s contribution. Maybe a commemorative statue? Aha! A new internet meme in the making . . .

  6. It is a value piece of history and it should be returned to China. How it is returned may cost money, as everything else does in the world. I feel raising the appropriate funds should be done and the seal returned through its purchase.

  7. As much as the communist government denounce its imperial predecessor, but when there is treasure involved then its “they stole it from US!!!!”

  8. funny how china destroyed most of its own culture during the “cultural revolution” and bitches now about every piece that slipped their claws and went abroad.

    • As mentioned before, the artifacts from the Palace Museum were well protected by R.O.C., P.R.C., hell, even by the Japanese Imperial government during the WWII. The most damaging event that had occurred to these previous arts was the burning and looting conducted by the European (+Japan) armies during the Boxer Rebellion.

      The destructive act of the Red Guards (whom the majority of Chinese aren’t) does not grant any justice foundation to the thievery act conducted by these European auctions.

      • Again…double standard…

        • Please enlighten me here, AndyR, what is the double standard here? Did I write any wrong history here?

          • If the Chinese government of the time had not allowed the boxers to go around killing westerners living in Beijing then probably the 8 nations that went to Beijing to rescue them wouldn’t have done the looting when they got there.

            Regarding the burning of the summer palace this actually happened during the 2nd opium war, not in 1900 as one commentor mentioned. It was burnt under the order of Lord Elgin as punishment to the emperor due the treatment of a western delagation under a flag of truce. quite of few of the delegation died from the gentle treatment of their chinese captors.

      • Wu… Comparing the very localized destruction of the Anti-Boxer Army to the whole country destruction wrought by the Kuomintang, Communists, or Japanese Army seems emotional rathern than fact-based. Which history books did you get that from? The Anti-Boxer Army went where? Beijing? Tianjin? Parts of Hebei? Other than damaging, destroying and looting some famous Imperial sites, the Dagu Forts of Tianjin, and few other spots, what did they do? I’m not saying those are small things, I’d have deplored them at the time, but really? Comparing those acts to the wonton destruction of the KMT, CCP, or IJA just seems, well utter hyperbole, if not outright dishonesty.

  9. “America’s invasion of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam is an invasion of China.”

    So when China invaded Vietnam a few years later was that an invasion of the U.S? I’m not exactly sure how jingoistic, self-masturbatory rhetoric works.

    • That was the Socialist Republic of Vietnam not the Democratic one. The PRC saw that Vietnam wasn’t democratic anymore and just wanted to help. Also that’s the reason why it would never invade the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.

  10. These people who are so easily offended need to stop whining like spoiled little emperors (uh, well that’s probably cuz they are, so I guess that’s too much to ask…) but I have to wonder how a country like the US would react if something like George Washington’s hat was being auctioned in a country that has historically been at odds with the US, like Russia for example.

    • Try imagine the hat is taken from the Smithsonian after Russian armies loots and pillages the city, steals everything they can carry, and burns down everything they can’t. Then perhaps you can understand why Chinese people see transactions like these legitimizes or at least whitewashes the invasion, and why it makes Chinese people angry.

    • Americans would say fuck it. It’s an old hat anyway.

    • Problem: from the perspective of Chinese history, the Qianlong Emperor is nothing like Washington. He’s more like one of the kings of pre-revolutionary France or a Russian Tsar.

      • Well, you could vote my comment down, or you could try answering it. ‘China’s Washington’ would be Sun Yatsen or Mao, because they can be seen as founders of modern China. The Qing Emperors were the rulers of the oppressive ‘feudal’ regime which the Chinese revolution overturned.

      • Stuey is right. Imagine if the French tried to claim paintings or candelsticks looted from some count’s pachateau during one of the numerous anti-monarchist revolutions, that were at that time bought by Germans or Brits, and are now being auctioned… everyone in the world would laugh at them.

  11. In fact, the character for country “国” contained the character “玉”, or jade, as a important symbol for national legitimacy.

    No it’s not. Jade has nothing to do with “national legitimacy”. In traditional Chinese 國 doesn’t have 玉jade inside. Actually there are more than sixty such jade seals left from Qianlong with “八征耄念之宝” seal (out of over one thousand seals he made) and the translation “treasure of eight journey and perennial thoughts” is totally misleading.

    I suggest not to create the hype which will only promote the auction. In stead, let’s print more posters to trade the jade seal and other relics in overseas auctions. Chinese culture relics should be returned to China where they can be best preserved and studied, in stead of locked in a cabinet by some industrial tycoons who don’t even know a single Chinese word.

    • It would be impulsive to dismiss the “symbolic” value of the jade seal (how many he had was irrelevant). There is one reason the ROC government in Taiwan still hands off the National Seals during presidential inaugurations, even despite there character for 國 doesn’t have 玉 inside.

      • I suggest you read more on the jade seal’s history. there are just many different kinds of seals and a seal owned by a king was royal indeed but doesn’t necessary carry the “symbolic” content. This one was made as a gift to Qianlong in his 80th birthday along with many other items carried the same seal (including even a Buddha statue with the seal on it). Using the simplified 国 to prove its symbolism is totally clueless since 国 wasn’t even in a dictionary back then, and its adoption is a fairly recent thing (and the reason to put 玉 inside is irrelevant either).

        • I suggest you actually understand that fact that Chinese history is accumulative not linear. You make it seem like that the character 国 is not part of Chinese history when it existed in variations during the Taiping era and probably exported to Japan long before that. Simplified characters are not things just conjured up by the PRC but existed as shorthand since antiquity.

          Yes I am aware of the fact that this seal is a gift piece with no official use but it does not detract its important in the minds of most Chinese the historical value of jade in the imperial context i.e when most Chinese see that picture they would first think of the Imperial symbol of the seal and not as just a piece of precious rock.

          • I didn’t make a judge on Chinese history in general, or say simplified Chinese was conjured up by PRC. Instead, I’m just trying to learn more about the background of the jade seal and the history behind the Chinese character 国.

            The ‘variation’ used in Taiping era was 囯, a 王(king) inside a 口, nothing to do with jade. The simplified 国 was probably invented by Japanese and standardized there in 1946. See wiki’s Tōyō Kanji article:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji

            The simplified Chinese word for ‘country’ was always 囯 not 国 before PRC. It’s not even in ROC’s first simplified Chinese standardization (abolished later) in 1935:

            http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80%E6%89%B9%E7%AE%80%E4%BD%93%E5%AD%97%E8%A1%A8

            (囯 is in the 1st picture on the right)

            国 was borrowed back from Japan in 1956. In the simplified word used in today, 玉 implies wealth and prosperity not legitimacy.

          • http:// glgxlx.blog.sohu.com/129103992.html

            Above source is unverified as I do not have the actual text on hand. But its likely the word 国 existed long before the 20th century (or borrowed from Japan), in general existed in numerous variation throughout history. 玉 share overlapping meaning between wealth/prosperity and also the stone itself. Perhaps “legitimacy” was not the correct term, but there must be some truth that can be deduced from the exclusivity of玉 especially among the royal (imperial) household in early Chinese history as both a symbol for status and wealth.

          • This is an interesting discussion. I have a character meaning “jade” in my name and the radical “王” is on the left but according to the dictionary it is actually the radical “玉“ for jade. While I am not familiar with the etymology of 国,I have been reading some books on antique jades 玉器 lately and they discuss imperial jade seals. While this was probably one of many imperial seals, there was one especially famous one 传国玺 made from the famous 和氏璧 by Qin Shi Huang. http://baike.baidu.com/view/33174.htm According to one of the books I read, the dot was added to 王 in order to differentiate 玉 from ruler. The character for ruler was supposed to represent three pieces of jade strung on a string as well as symbolically “heaven”, “man” and “earth”. The ruler is of course the mediator.

          • Yes, the radical 玉 is written as 王, and people often mistaken it as the radical 王 so there must be reciprocal meaning in its use. The character 国 appeared in historical times and not as recent simplified forms of hanzhi as well as kanji.

            Also I thought the character 王 came from the i-ching symbol of 三 (qian) or heaven, as a 王 is the one who unites all of heaven.

          • “Also I thought the character 王 came from the i-ching symbol of 三 (qian) or heaven, as a 王 is the one who unites all of heaven.”

            Well, the ruler is supposed to be the string/stroke in the middle that ties the jade pieces or the three aspects together.He also communed with heaven with the use of jade bi 玉璧.

            The jade scepters are ruyi 如意 meaning “as you wish” scepters (made of white jadeite?).

            My family has been out of China for a few generations.However, I am really interested in Chinese culture and history as a foreigner even though I don’t really think I can claim Chinese culture as my own. :)

            I don’t have time to hang around Chinese forums so Chinasmack has been quite illuminating for me.

  12. Ok first things first the seal was bought in Paris in the 1970′s. It is only being sold in the UK.
    Secondly for all we know it could have been bought in Paris in the 70′s by a Chinese person who is now deciding to sell it.

    • Does it undermine the legitimacy of the right of the Chinese government (the representative of the Chinese people) in demanding the returning of this relic if it was stolen from the Old Palace?

  13. capt. LING DAN WANG BA

    Okay, let me get this cleared up. In the past, when I said that one should know history, so to see the causes and consequences, I’m NOT SAYING a certain group–on here–with certain views (often saying things about ALL CHINESE) ARE WRONG JUST BECAUSE of some past actions. NO! I just trying to get people to put things in perspective, so that instead of always being negative and accusatory, let’s try to see that people CAN BE PROGRESSIVE! People can become better! So if I had all the same experiences as you I WOULD BE EXACTLY LIKE YOU! (Everyone has ups and downs, good and bads).

  14. capt. LING DAN WANG BA

    So everyone had problems. Everyone HAS problems today. Let’s just try to show people that we can become better. Let’s have some hope.

    What am I saying now. I don’t even believe it. Let’s blow each other up. World War III I would love to see that.

  15. capt. LING DAN WANG BA

    But for this here I think all relics should be RETURNED TO ALL THE PEOPLE that it was taken from.

    There shouldn’t be any argument against that. I don’t see why Tibet is an issue here. I BELIEVE Tibet should be returned. People were oppressed and injustice down. So those must be corrected.

  16. Well, we (Chinese) are on course to the world domination :) so work harder – take all the money from the European and Americans. Buy the whole world back.

  17. There is no question that Christies and Sothebys are criminal business enterprises.

    But shit, the Mao porceline figurine looks dead cheesy. Wouldn’t want it in my lounge room. Bad kitch of one of the 20th century’s truly notable psycho maximun leaders.
    Love the cut of his fashionable trousers though.

    • I think you’ve vastly oversimplified the situation. Christie’s and Sotheby’s are just auction houses. They don’t own the items they sell, and they sell things deemed legal to sell by their home country.

      I think most people would like to see items such as these returned to their home countries. Clearly the items were illegally taken in the past. However, good luck forcing every country to force these items current owners (who in all likelihood did not loot these items themselves, assuming they aren’t vampires or the Highlander) to concede them.

      I would hope for their owners to try to come to an arrangement with the government of the nation from which the items were looted. However, expectations and hopes are two different things.

      Anyway, I think ancient China did a really excellent amount of looting back when the Chinese empire was the world’s best. Probably most of that stuff has been lost, broken or relooted, but for any that remains, maybe they should give it back to whatever country it was originally from (probably a lot of good SE Asian stuff).

      Anyway, looting was a pretty popular policy in the not too recent past. It’s critical to hold on to your shit. Getting things back isn’t easy.

      • @ B Prichard.

        Why are you dissing people from Scotland???

        No, I stand by my comments on those auction houses….you give yourself away….deemed legal.

        Anyway, I’m more interested in the semiological meaning of the Mao figurine. Is the Maximun Leader.

        1. Discussing his golf handicap.
        2. Announcing the Great Leap Forward
        3 Announcing the Cultural Revolution
        4. Asking the happy peasant couple if they would like to exchange their daughter for a new wok.

  18. Don’t give these back to the Chinese. Half of the Chinese wouldn’t know what these pieces are or if the pieces are real because they are too busy making fakes of it and the other half will do anything to sell these pieces in the black market if they get their hands on them.

  19. Its funny reading all this from Chinese netizens about China pride and everything. I’m all for it, but these netizens are the biggest hypocrites. They love to watch the nonesense Cracker/Jew worshipping western shows/movies that make the white guy “god’s gift to women of all races” while it makes all non-white men d!ckless brutes.

    • wtf are you talking about? lol!

    • Someone has some serious sexual frustration they need to deal with before commenting here.

    • Chinese men dickless brutes…

      Certainly the Chinese women I know would agree.

      [Note from Fauna: 说中国男人没JJ的人JJ最短最小。你以为你说别人就代表你自己很长很大吗?]

      • @Fauna

        Trolls know what they’re going to say before they even read the post. It’s like a copy-n-paste for them but a great waste of time for readers.

        “Balancing out” trolls is not readers’ job but moderators’ duty. I say Edit->Delete. At least it works pretty well under my posts. Or you give me moderation right and the almighty Python will take good care of them :)

        —_ ……._-_–.
        (|\ / / /| \ \
        / / .’ -=-’ `.
        / / .’ )
        _/ / .’ _.) /
        / o o _.-’ / .’
        \ _.-’ / .’*|
        \______.-’// .’.’ \*|
        \| \ | // .’.’ _ |*|
        ` \|// .’.'_ _ _|*|
        . .// .’.’ | _ _ \*|
        \`-|\_/ / \ _ _ \*\
        `/’\__/ \ _ _ \*\
        /^| \ _ _ \*
        ‘ ` \ _ _ \ PYTHON EATS SPAM!
        \_

        • More like PYTHON WASTES 20 MINUTES TRYING TO MAKE A PICTURE OF A PYTHON EATING SPAM.

          FAIL

          • Find and moderate your own stories Python. Sounds like you have a bad dose of imperialism here.

          • I thought I made it clear I was speaking to Fauna by putting “@Fauna” at the beginning.

            BTW, what you two fear of if you don’t troll? Giving advice on moderation is imperialism? really? then adding note after a comment must be fascism. LOL

    • jocularity, jocularity!

  20. Hey Joel, you will have to keep the Muslims out first Lolz

  21. A lot of these ancient treasures were sold to foreigners by Mao during the Cultural Revolution, take a look at the people who stole your culture and your freedom before you accuse foreigners of stealing.

    • I am interest in your story of Mao ‘selling’ artifacts to foreigners, could you kindly provide us with an example?

    • I like you because your an encyclopedia of entertaining BULLSHIT. If you would like me to back this up. Just read every commented you’ve ever provided.

      • Moron, try reading a history book that wasn’t written by a brainwashed Communist propagandist if you don’t believe me

        • Last time I checked my resume, I did not see any communist education there. So please tell me what did I miss in the history book of ROC, NZ, USA, etc. about Mao selling relics to the foreigners during the Cultural Revolution, I am eager to learn the real story.

          • Wu… technically it wasn’t during, it was after. Huge warehouses of the most valuable and sellable stuff were kept, well into the 80s, and gradually sold off for profit. There were huge waves of antiques coming out of China in the 80s and 90s, from those warehouses. Where do you think China’s government run action houses get their stuff?

            http://www.worldaa.com/article.cfm?article=90

            It wasn’t in your textbooks so it didn’t happen? Come on! You can do better than that.

  22. It’s an auction, right? China values these artifacts, right? China has money, right? Buy them back! Simple.

    Would you like your cave of treasures looted by foreigners? Why not try chinasmack personals?

    250 out

  23. Its funny how Qianlong’s jade imperial seal ended up with private collectors. They got in the act with the foreign powers who were exploiting the weak Qing empire.

    That is one piece that should be return to China whether by sale or by returning it.

    The propaganda leaflet about Vietnam should stay where it is. All these items carry historical value which belongs in a museum and doesn’t really affect Chinese every day life.

    • I haven’t seen anywhere, on any website, or in any newspaper, Chinese or foreign, a clear explantion of how this was “looted”. The bronze head were backed up by a real story and plenty of proof. This seal however just seems to have been labeled loot. What if it was legitimately bought and sold? Thousands of Qianlong’s personal belongings are in private collections.

      • Mike, the new rules are:

        1.If an item is old, Chinese, and not in China, then it was undoubtedly looted by an evil, mustached foreigner with a necklace of shrunken Chinese baby heads around his neck. (The foreigner was also most likely raping a Chinese woman at the time of theft.)
        2. Historical evidence compiled by Westerners regarding the origin and acquisition of said items are blatant propaganda. For those inquisitive about the background of the item(s) in question, please see rule #1.

      • I am also interested in the history of this Seal. It is an imperial Seal after all, not the average personal belonging.

  24. 國 (nation, country) contains “或”, or a city wall (口) protected by a weapon (戈). It doesn’t have a lot to do with 玉.

  25. According to the provenance of this particular item it wasn’t looted but actually stolen following the Emperors death by one of the palace attendants.

    Whilst I sympathise with the sentiment that it is an important relic and should be returned to China the fact is that almost all countries around the world have significant artifacts that are not in their own country anymore.

    I would find it surprising if the Chinese government really wanted this object back. Why would you want an object that was a symbol of tyranny and repression in the country? Surely it would be better to celebrate what you have now rather than bitching about an artifact that highlights some of the worst periods of Chinese militaristic conquering?

    (The above sentiment can of course apply to the Maoist items being sold)

    • If this object was stolen by the palace attendants (which I am doubtful, the Qing court was not that weak at the time that an eunuch or court official could steal the belonging of the Emperor with ease), then whoever possessed this item did have the right to auction it.

    • Symbol of tyranny? The Chinese should also take out all these foreign countries that have in the past taken advantage of an empire as well as the countries in this age that keeps on telling China what to fuckin’ do all the time when they themselves were rampaging and destroying everything and are the reasons why the world needs to change.

      FUCK THE WEST.

      • So you are advocating that China should copy all the mistakes that the Western Empires did that got them into real trouble?

        Slavery, Colonialism, Opium Trade etc?

        If that happened I can imagine that we might have a very large war and everybody would go FUCK YOU CHINA.

        Let us hope that not everyone thinks in such a narrow minded way as you.

        • You need to read a book.

          You think the Western Powers are actually playing nice? Go read Saddam Hussein’s interview 3 months before his execution. Go get the North Korean point of view in negotiating with the West. Western Powers such as the US have for the last few centuries thrown their weight all over the world. Negotiating with the US is like talking to a bully and this is well documented.

          “Before we even begin to negotiate, you’re going to do this this and this or we’ll bomb you back to the industrial age.” (Top US Diplomat negotiating with Iraq, CNN)

          And now that the West has fucked up the world, they’re pointing fingers at countries such as China for polluting the world. China’s trade practices are unfair. Human rights. Tibet. XingJiang. FUCK ALL THIS BULLSHIT. What about the West’s problems? You don’t see China telling everyone else how to run their own fucking countries.

          Got into real trouble? What trouble are you talking about? The West has been victimizing the entire world for the last 3-400 years. Slaughtering the natives for their wealth, raping, enslaving, genoicide, etc. I’ve yet to see the Western Powers in trouble. I’m happy to see countries standing up to the West.

          No no no. The West has been saying FUCK YOU CHINA for the last couple of hundred years. Now that China has become powerful enough to fight back, the West is still preaching how “EVIL” China is through their BS media. I hope the West will one day completely fall apart and bow down to their former victims.

          Narrow minded? I merely know my facts. Do you?

          • At what point above did I every say the west was playing nice? Also I freaking hate America’s foreign policy so I agree with you totally on all that you said about them.

            However I would have to disagree on China not telling people how to run stuff. Hong Kong (where I live), Macau, Taiwan etc are all meant to be independent of Chinese control with regard to domestic issues. This is complete bullshit. We have the worlds biggest Chinese puppet Donald Tsang in charge here in HK who would do nothing without Beijing’s say so.

            China currently is engaging in practices with regard to foreign policy human rights etc. that are comparable to what the west did 100 or 200 years ago. The west got royally fucked when this all came crashing down bar America. China should look at the history of the world on this and learn a few lessons.

            Also please don’t confuse the West with America on your posts. America does preach some very strong things about China and other nations around the world. Most of the rest of the west does not. Lumping all of them together is the equivalent of lumping China, Japan and Korea together as “the East”.

          • What the fuck are you rambling on about?

            “The West has been victimizing the entire world for the last 3-400 years. Slaughtering the natives for their wealth, raping, enslaving, genoicide, etc. I’ve yet to see the Western Powers in trouble. I’m happy to see countries standing up to the West.”

            As if what is now known as “China” did not build up its empire by completely subsuming other cultures and civilizations? Just look to such books as “Guns,Germs,and Steel” to find such evidence of the aforementioned. China was built by conquering the lands of other peoples living outside the Yangzi River Valley, from “Inner Mongolia” to Tibet to “Xinjiang” all the way down to Vietnam. Furthermore, inhabitants of Southeast asian countries were once encompassed by an entirely different language family! Thai, Vietnamese, Cantonese, are all relatively new languages to the area.

            And you have the audacity to consider China a passive and peaceful “country” willing to modernize without becoming a threat?

            Or better yet ” Now that China has become powerful enough to fight back, the West is still preaching how “EVIL” China is through their BS media. I hope the West will one day completely fall apart and bow down to their former victims.”

            Just because the remnants of European colonialism still remain fresh in your eyes after World War II left western powers firmly in the lead economically in militarily doesn’t mean that “the West” is one big bully looking to coerce everyone else into falling in line. Or better yet, how would you like such an amoral, unethical, irreligious, totalitarian empire like China to lead the world as a superpower? Would that be a good thing? Honestly. Does anyone here have the gall to say that “China” of all places would do a better job than America or the European Union?

            Give me a break.

          • You know, I recently met with a German diplomat who was privy to a lot of the things that are going on in China and Chinese activities all over the world. You can say what you want about the west. But Chinese are responsible for the most heinous crimes in the world and the most disgusting tortures, lack of justice and murders IN THE WORLD.

            Stop your “western powers bullying us” cry baby bull shit and eat a dick China. You guys no matter how powerful will never stand against and American or a European you know why? YOU DONT HAVE THE BALLS. FCUK CHINA!!!

            If you are so strong go take TW back tomorrow and watch how we blast that ass back to 1949.

            BTW if we attack between 12-2 pm we will WIN because you are all sleeping. Cut off two meals from a Chinaman and he will run home to his mommie who cooks for him until he is 40 years old. You really think you guc motherfuckers can stand against real men? Here is the challenge, fuck your mother come get some!!! Let’s roll

  26. There is no spoon (aka Charles)

    I’ve found it hard to conceive how impartial, pathetic and insecure blog owners are in generally and more specifically in Chinasmack. You have constant trollers like Pusan Playa and G3xxx whatever his name is and other anti-chinese posters. Yet despite this, I’ve had my IP and nicknames blocked simply for constructing a logical argument that clearly establishes their contra argument albeit more successfully than theirs? Joe must feel proud for writing ‘aka Ch@rle$’ in a previous post. But how many of you know that is because he has blocked ‘Ch@rle$’ as a useable name. It must be because blog owners don’t earn enough, hence seen in the past where Fauna had to seek donations online for a new laptop. Yes, I’ve tried emailing Fauna about this issue as well and without a response.

    [Note from Fauna: Joe did not add "aka Charles". I add it. I can tolerate anti-Chinese but I cannot tolerate you abuse the comment voting system and use multiple names to make comments to support yourself. These are the reasons you are on the comment moderation list. Your comments will be reviewed before they are approved. I have already approve many of your previous comments when you are not trying to cheat people.

    Yes, we blog owners do not earn enough. We work very hard to provide you with free translation and information. We are not required to let you abuse our trust and our website.]

  27. too much nationalism…too much anger…
    the artifacts are treasures and it represents the human history..no just china…open your mind
    as long as they have been taken carefully very well, i dont really mind who is the owner…..
    think about Mao what he did to china is worst then ever, maybe we should save some energy to let everyone understand the truth of the chinese history….that may help we can understand each other better!!!!!

    • Your philosophy isn’t bad, but only if the East gets their share of the West’s artifacts. Last time I checked, the East haven’t really invaded into the West before.

      • youre a dumbass. my mongol ancestors did and they had a good time too. chinese on the other hand are wusses.

      • en…invade other countries and make wars could never be proud for your honor!!!!
        there is no logics….because the British and French fucked the world before, so china should do this as well????
        peace & respect yourself!!!

        • Who said anything about invasion? Maybe donate/auction the British crown to the Chinese.

          It’s not only the Brits and the French that fucked the world. It’s basically most of Europe.

          • The Star of India, centrepiece of the english crown, belongs to India in fact. Many other gemstones held by the ‘Half-English’ Royals (German line in reality) also belong to the Persian Throne of the Shah of Iran and his 2000 year old family lineage.

            Meanwhile, don’t even dare use the Shah to create friction within Iran, they’ll be wise to the dirty tricks being played and would rather have a Constitutional Monarch as a rallying and civilising force than a demogogue opponent that raises opponents against the Ayatollah.

            The seal and any other artifacts (as much as the Star of India) should be acquired/confiscated by the English government and returned as a gesture of friendship to the rising superpowers of the East.

  28. don’t like it..just declare war.

  29. I recently did a project with a Chinese guy who was doing some stuff with old Chinese sculptures that he saw at the Smithsonian Museum where they had this amazing display of old Chinese artifacts. I made the comment to him that thank god we saved these things because if they were left in China during that time when the Chinese were so busy destroying their culturally relevant items they would have been permanently lost. His mind tweaked for a moment and then he agreed with me and reminded me Chinese people have very very short memories.

    • human are easy to forget the dark and bad things,or they can pretend…that’s why history is often repeat…
      Mao in china he is still one of the greatest leaders, he is the symbol of PRC, no one dare to destroy…
      sadly enough for china, the whole generation is destroy, but the younger people still have to care on this shit….

    • Thats a very interesting story, it does give some good insight in the situation.

      Rather than bickering about the de jure right to possession for these artifacts. We should be glad that they are preserved.

      They used to be the properties of a now dissolved government, thus the estate is now longer present.

      Similarly, if a revolution occurs, the new regime over throws the old one, then the nation is no longer obligated to pay the debt amounted by the old regime, it would be quite unfair to do away with the debts but still have natural rights claim artifacts to the old regimes.

      There is no denying the initial plundering of the old empire was unethical and should be compensated, however that estate no longer exists.

    • I would like to thank you colin, and your ancestors for saving these valuable artifacts. They are indeed men of great vision, able to predict the rise of communism in China many decades later and selflessly traveled from a far away land to our shores. These men have also in the process killed many of us, no doubt due to population explosion in the future, burned down many buildings, probably to clear up land for future renovations.

      Your ancestors’ generosity do not stop there, they also took countless amount of gold, silver, and valuables, although as a Chinese person I do not possess sufficient mental faculties to comprehend their ultimate purpose, (or maybe I did, but forgot – you know those memories!) but needless to say, they were done with China’s best intention in mind, after all, every single action lead inexorably to today, and your ancestors have played a pivotal role.

      Thank you.

    • ok,
      let me steal all your shit, in case you might destroy them in the future… sine we don’t know when you will go crazy and might destroy all your shit.
      contact me at akbarlo@gmail.com to give me your address so i can steal your shit.

  30. what difference would having that back in china make to lives of the average chinese person? maybe once in their lifetime the could go see it in a glass case from a distance of a few metres. They lose sight of the fact the UK has invested millions in CHina, its companies are employing Chinese people, it has shared its professional expertise and god knows how much trade between the countries is worth. Is it really such a bad place?

  31. Chinese should return all the technologies that were forced on it by Russia, the U.S., and Europe. Our China never asked for electricity, engineering, modern science, and so on. Chinese should develop their own engineering based on the 5 elements of taoism, and strongly resist the influence of foreign barbarian ‘science’.

    This entire thread is idiotic.

  32. That first paragraph was sarcasm, btw

  33. talk about hypocrisy, all that stuff originally belongs to mongolia. greedy chinese always want things that dont belong to them like tibet, taiwan and xinjiang. you see mongols crying over this? we’re out in our yurts practicing horse riding, wrestling and archery

  34. THIS IS NOT A CASE OF THEFT…..
    Blame it on some greedy Chinese ppl that would do anything for a small amount of monies and authority…..Without them,there”s absolutely no way these can be taken out from China…..Blame it on those corrupt official again,shall we?

    • I do not understand the logic behind your statement Lee. Could you please enlighten us what did the ‘corrupt’ Chinese official did that justified the looting and the burning of Western powers on the Chinese cities ever since the first Opium War?

  35. That the articles should never have been stolen in the first place cannot be denied. However if they were left in China, the events of the cultural revolution would most probably have left them smashed or lost.

    If China is to start pointing fingers at theft and destruction of its culture, they should first look into their own recent history and the wanton self destruction they brought upon themselves.

  36. @hopalong

    “However I would have to disagree on China not telling people how to run stuff. Hong Kong (where I live), Macau, Taiwan etc are all meant to be independent of Chinese control with regard to domestic issues.”

    Independent? If you believe that these places are independent, you seriously need to get a reality check. Regardless, the mentioned places are all still Chinese and as such, should listen to China.

    America is basically the “leader” of the West. They do have differences about certain issues, but they’ve all plundered China and the rest of the world and are still taking advantage of less developed countries to the point that it’s just disgusting.

    You can’t compare the history/mistakes of different countries. They’re all different cultures at different points of development and at different eras of history. It’s like comparing apples and oranges, so that doesn’t make any sense.

    • I would describe Hong Kong and Macau as Cantonese rather than Chinese but that is just semantics. Also why should anybody actually listen to China no matter what. It is the duty of all citizens to question their government be it local or national to make sure they get the best out of it.

      Do you seriously not get the sarcasm in that part either. The 1 country 2 parties system is a complete joke and has just served to divide these regions between people who want to be more independent but are shouted down by the others who have the backing of Beijing.

      I can easily compare Apples and Oranges as they are both sweet fruits that grow on trees and happen to flourish in similar environments. They also both happen to go well together in a fruit salad.

      In short it has nothing to do with culture or the way the countries have developed. We are all human beings and we all have ways and methods of dealing with things that are the same. Sometimes these methods are inappropriate and need to be quelled, preferably by the majority being given a voice to say so.

      • and no one gives a fuck “what you describe”.

        hongers are the most whiny ass bitches i have seen in my life.

      • Canton is part of China. Just like Tibet, XingJiang, Taiwan.

        If you haven’t quite figured it out, Taiwan is not even close to being in the same “independent state” as Hong Kong. Not even close. Go to Taiwan and take a look. There’s no mainland presence there. Dumb shit, you’ve never heard of “applese and oranges”? Read some more before you post. You’re just wasting my time.

        “In short it has nothing to do with culture or the way the countries have developed.”

        This might just be the most retarded thing that I’ve ever read. Culture/development has been indicated in every single factor on this planet. You sir, TRULY ARE A FUCKTARD.

        CONGRATULATIONS!!!

  37. These treasures (I actually I don’t find them so good compared to greek or roman ones but to each his own) thanks god they have been stolen instead of being destroyed during the cultural revolution. U want them back? Go and make an offer. Talking about what is fair or not: it’s been 30 years already that China is stealing money, ideas, etc. from western economies. God punish americans for letting China enter the WTO in 2001.That’s been even worse than 9/11.

    • Before you write something ignorant, please do some research on the condition of the Old Palace during the Cultural Revolution… or at least read the thread. I am tire at repeating myself to those who like to grab any opportunity to bash a China that only exists in their imaginations.

    • i destroy my own shit if I want. its better for you to steal my shit so I can’t destroy it when I want…

      yea ok there bud.

    • o ya,
      just as wu said,
      the forbidden palace gates were shut down thanks to zhou enlai…

      not like there was much there, since the KMT already looted it all to taiwan.

  38. For all the Chinese nationalists out there: If you want the relics back so bad then buy them back at the auctions. If not then shut up. Put your money where your mouth is. You expect them to just give it back? Not going to happen.

  39. You know coming from a country that steals from every other country every day and then makes profit on it I have a hard time feeling sorry for them.

    I mean Jesus, there is a fake disney land for pete sakes and they say Mickey Mouse is a cat with big ears. They even have a blueberry endorsed by Obama. I say FCUK Chinese people.

    Let’s imitate them and say its not CHINESE its Manchurian and not part of the people’s republic of China property. Or we can tell them its a Korean symbol. Just lie, that’s what they do.

    Then if they complain put a front page article in the Brittish News that says “BRITAIN strongly condemns China’s accusation of selling “Chinese” relics as cold war mentality thinking”

    • Support! Maybe not to the extreme you say, but it would be nice to see some of our leaders call a spade a spade when it comes to China and stop walking on eggshells while the Chinese government spews its vitriol all over the globe. I think that the CCP has proved time and time again that it does not respect those that give it respect.

    • well, it has Chinese carved on the bottom, but anyway why let a little thing like facts fuck up your awesome arguments?

  40. Modern Chinese people threw a wall up in the 60′s between modern and older/ancient China. They destroyed innumerable treasures themselves therefore forfeiting any claim to anything pre-cultural revolunacy. The stuff is far safer in the care of other countries and if someone protected it, they damn well have the right to sell it on to like minded collectors.

    • Have you heard about the Republic of “CHINA”? Before this regime ceased to exist, none of other countries has the right to sell the looted relics from China basing on your logic.

    • The jade seal is a national treasure and rightly belongs to its people. Mao’s cultural revolution was a mistake but that does not mean the Chinese have forfeited all rights to Chinese heritage and culture. There is no law on this kind of thing but even if we go by your self fabricated logic, they should return the seal to ROC: ROC never turned its back on Chinese culture and heritage. Both ROC and PRC today protect Chinese cultural relics with great care so your argument that the stuff is safer in the hands of independent collectors fail. To conclude, shut your mouth hole.

      • Citizen of ROC is right. I would like to add that us overseas Chinese didn’t go through Cultural Revolution too.We still practice our old customs,some of which have become obsolete in the mainland.Will you argue the Chinese all over the world should be deprived of their cultural heritage?

        Even if you argue that PRC shouldn’t have it, you should give it to ROC for the time being.

        As long as it is in Chinese hands.

      • I was in Beijing recently. Saw lots of trees and weeds growing out of the forbidden city. doesn’t seem that they care that much unless there is money to be made.

  41. This thread is a lost cause. Go home everybody….have a cup of tea, an aspirin and a good lie down. I also include myself in this timely advice.

  42. If that doesnt work, go to bed with a good book or with someone who has read one.

  43. How cute, I like how they have no problems stealing Western intellectual property on a regular basis. And before I get the typical enraged response: what is the difference between that and this? Age. Just because our stuff hasn’t been around for longer, suddenly its ok to just steal it. Stop being a bunch of ridiculous hypocrites, and you can have all of your cultural relics back.

  44. I’m surprised Pusan Playa didn’t post this (maybe he’s not Korean after all) so I’ll do it for him.

    From Korean poster on another board:

    “Korean descendants conquered China

    The originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person. His name was Hambo. The emperor of Jin dynasty was called a Silla person by Song Chinese who visited Jin in 1120s. Some history books say that the Jurchen King was a Silla person, others say that the originator of Jin was first from Goryeo[7]. It is because Silla was replaced by Goryeo. However, Chinese, Mongol, Korean, and Manchu history records are consistent impling that Jurchen kings are originally from Silla.

    The name of the originator of Jin(金) is Hambo(函普). When he came first from Goryeo(高麗), his age was 60
    金之始祖諱函普,初從高麗來,年已六十餘矣 (in 1st chapter of the history of Jin(金史) [3])

    Not only the originator of Jin, but also Agolta (阿骨打), the founder of Jin dynasty, was called originally a person from Silla

    Agolta (阿骨打) of the Jurchens declared to be the Emperor, … He was originally a person of Silla (新羅人)
    女真阿骨打稱帝,姓王名做旻,本新羅人,號完顏氏 (in 3 宣和遺事 (大宋宣和遺事)) [2]
    Jurchen Agolta named the state Great Jin (大金) (… He is originally a person of Silla).
    女真阿骨打稱帝國號大金(…本新羅人) (in《佛祖歷代通載》卷19)

    There are lots of history records showing that the originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person (or from Goryeo)

    The originator of Wonan family (Jin’s royal family) is a person of Silla
    完顏之始祖指蒲者,新羅人 (in 大宋遗民)
    The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
    金之始祖諱函普初從高麗來 ( in 大金國誌 written by Song Chinese)
    The originator of Jin, Hambo was first from Goyreo.
    金之始祖諱哈富(舊作函普)初從髙麗來 (in 三朝北盟會編 written by Song Chinese)

    Mongol and Korean records are consistent showing that the originator and the king of Jin dynasty are Silla persons. Goryeo claimed that Jin dyansty was originally inside Goryeo and they were people of Goryeo, and Goryeo was the mother country of Jin dynasty

    People of Jin was originally Pyungjoo people in our country Goyreo. Goryeo was a mother country of Jin.
    金則本我國平州之人, 稱我爲父母之國, 尹灌築九城之地, 以先春嶺爲界, 終金之世, 兵不相加。(高麗史 written by Korean dynasty)
    The king of Jurchens is originally a Silla person
    其初酋長本新羅人 (in 金志 written by Mongols in Yuan dynasty)

    Until when did the royal family of Jin dynasty know that they were from Silla? When Jurchens visited Goryeo, they said their country was originated from Goryeo.

    My ancestors (我祖宗) originated from the High country (大邦: Goryeo).
    我祖宗出自大邦 (from 高麗史13卷-世家13-睿宗1109, written by Korean in Goryeo)

    When Jin dynasty invaded Song China, two Chinese emperors were captured as hostages in 1127. Song Chinese visited Jin dynasty to negotiate with Jin to find a way to get their emperors back in 1129. They recorded that the king of Jin dynasty (the second empeor of Jin) was a person of Silla. It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called Silla people even after Jin dynasty was founded.

    The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla.
    女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese)

    (cont’d)

    • “Manchu Qing dynasty(1636-1912) is the successor of Jurchen’s Jin dynasty (1115-1234) . Jurchens rebuilt Later Jin dynasty in 1616. They changed the country name to Qing (1636), and conquered China (1644), Mongolia (1697), Taiwan (1683), Tibet(1750), and Uyguru(1759). The royal family of Qing believed that they were descendents of Jin’s royal family. Manchu people in Qing dynasty also knew that the originator of Jin dynasty was from Goryeo (or Silla). Qing government published their own history book, “The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)” in 1777. They worte that the originator of Jin dynasty was first from Goryeo in the book. Also, they wrote that the origin of the country name Jin (金) was from the surname of kings of Silla(新羅).

      The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
      金之始祖讳哈富(旧作函普)初从髙丽来 (in Chapter 7, The Origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考) [1] )
      The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅)
      新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (in The Origin of Manchu [1])
      Silla came to Wannan family. Silla kings’ surname 金(Kim in Korean) inherited ten generations. So, Jin(金) came from Silla. There is no doubt that it became the country name.
      “本自新羅來姓完顔氏 新羅王金姓 相傳數十世則金之自新羅來 無疑建國之名 “(in The Origin of Manchu [1])

      Also, Qing emperors’ surname was “愛新覺羅”. Interestingly, it can be read as “love Silla (愛 新羅) and remember Silla (覺 新羅)”. The surname “愛新覺羅” means gold(金) clan in Manchu pronunciation (Aisin Gioro). The surname Kim(金) of Silla kings means gold too. After the end of Qing dynasty, the descendents of royal family changed their surname to 金.

      The Manchu royal family Aishin Giro (愛新覺羅) clan were people who lived in Odoli Castle which is in current Hoeryong (회령), North Hamgyong in North Korea before foundation of Later Jin dynasty. They were a vassal tribe to Joseon dynasty, and they treated Joseon as a mother country.

      Qing government announced the definition of Manchu and prohibited the term ‘Jurchen’ referring to them. The half of Manchu tribes were Korean tribes by the Qing’s definition of Manchu.”

      • “Definition of Manchu from “The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)” [1]
        Manchu Tribe 1: Suksin (肅愼, Jurchen), Buyeo(夫余, Korean)
        Manchu Tribe 2: Yilou (挹娄, Ainu), Samhan(三韩, Korean), and Mulgil (勿吉, Jurchen)
        Manchu Tribe 3: Baekje(百济, Korean)
        Manchu Tribe 4: Silla(新羅, Korean)
        Manchu Tribe 5: Malgal(靺鞨, Jurchen)
        Manchu Tribe 6: Balhae(渤海, Korean)
        Manchu Tribe 7: Wanan (完颜, Korean royal family and Jurchens), and GeonJu (建州, Jurchen)

        Genetic analysis of Koreans and Manchus

        According to genetic analysis using Y-chromosome, Manchus are closest to Koreans than any other ethnics in comparisons [5].

        Y-chromosome analysis. Koreans are closet to Manchus. KOR(Korean), MAN(Manchu), KCN(Korean Chinese), NHN(North Chinese), JPN(Japanese). (From Katoh’s paper 2005)
        In this study, both Korean and Korean Chinese (ethnic Koreans living in China) are genetically closest to Manchus. Interestingly Manchus are genetically closer to Koreans than Mongols. it is consistent with the Qing’s definition of Manchu tribes in which Korean tribes are majority. It is believed that the population of ethnic Koreans in Goguryeo and Balhae dynasty contributed to main Manchu population in Jin dynasty.

        Northern Han Chinese were not as close to Manchu as the Koreans and Japanese are, but not as far away than the other ethnics. Current north China was traditional Altaic people’s homeland, and Altaic people conquered and colonized China many times. Through history, Chinese were mixed with them . Khitan and Jurchen people governed Northern China during 10~12th century (Liao and Jin dynasty). Mongol and Manchu people governed whole China during 13~14th and 17~20th century (Yuan and Qing dynasty). There are many non-Han Chinese dynasties in Chinese history. Other studies show that genetic distance between Southern Han Chinese and Manchu is big.”

        So maybe the imperial seals should be returned to Korea, since the Manchus were Korean.

        • The Qing were heavily sinicized at this point, both culturally as well as by bloodlines. Qianlong’s grandfather Kangxi was half Han, half Manchu. Interestingly at this time Koreans used a modified Chinese flag as its official flag, used Chinese language as its official written language and was a vassal state that paid tributary to the Qing, which often referred itself as China (中国).

          So even if what you say is true, it would not support you conclusion, it is interesting though.

          • Kangxi half Han, half Manchu? Do you got this off some folklore, cuz i am pretty sure Manchu/Han intermarriage was frowned on ever since the beginning. If Kangxi is half han, he wouldve prob never ascended to the throne.

          • According to a source on the internet Her family was of Jurchen origin but lived among Chinese for generations. It had Chinese family name Tong (佟) but switched to the Manchu clan name Tongiya.

            What you say makes a lot of sense though, it is entirely possible I digested it from some folklore and out the other end it came.

        • No no no . . . you forget that the Koreans originally came from China.

  45. @ Yin. Christ almighty, Yin. You took my advice and went to bed with a massive library. You are a genealogical genius. Beijing should hire you to prove that New Zealand was once part of the Han empire in 2000BC.

    Whatever, Pusan Playa (who is taking his medication these days) would be receptive to your conclusion.

    @Python. Okay, you were talking to Fauna, but it was in the public domain, so capable of being commented on.

    BTW, what you two fear of if you don’t troll? Giving advice on moderation is imperialism? really? then adding note after a comment must be fascism. LOL

    Whats this drivel mean???? Perhaps you should have spent more time on the Politics subject in your final year of high school.

    Nonetheless, you and the other moderators on this pretty neat site do a great job….peace.

  46. I just find it sick that some ppl try to justify the looting of these treasures. If it’s done against the Chinese it is ok, but not against you.

    • No one says its okay, and absolutely no one other than the “Mainland” Chinese complain so much. No wonder the Taiwanese hate you guys.

      • Of course not. It’s their heritage that’s getting treaded on. If I went on over to fuckin’ Korea and started raping and plundering your artifacts, I guarantee you that it’s the Koreans that’ll be “complaining” the most.

        YOU FAIL.

    • Actually, part of the blame still lies with qing dynasty for being weak. They had time to respond and strengthen to the growing colonial threat.

  47. Hell if the Western powers hadn’t looted some of this stuff, it might have just been destroyed in the Cultural Revolution.
    At least we know how to take care of ancient artifacts.

    • well, if Western powers didn’t loot, maybe we would still have a the Qing Dynasty and the Cultural Revolution would not have happened.

      • If the chinese never invented gun powder the west wont had dominated the war with the Qing Dynasty.

        So did the egg came first or the chicken?

        • I think the Chinese did invented the gunpowder. But ya Anon, i agree with you. =] this is just a never ending cycle.

          • Oh Oh I got one, if the western powers didn’t loot the Qing wouldn’t have fallen and China would still be a slave to feudalism. Then, they would be able to make cheap products for our great western powers and still be tilling the soils with a water buffalo.

            They wouldn’t be able to steal our education, IPR, or technological advances.. Poor China poor poor China. You have just been sooo picked upon… maybe you should just take your ball and go home

      • FDLR, so, thanks to Western powers, Chinese have communism? If you didn’t loot the Qing dynasty they wouldn’t have fallen, hence China wouldn’t have turned into communism, is this what you are saying?

        My point regarding my above post was that the looting of those treasures is unjustifiable. What about other ancient cultures like the Indian, Egyptian, and countless others that were looted by the European, they didn’t have cultural revolutions, nor Great leap forward nor are they communist. Was it also OK for you to loot them too?

  48. If China wanted this artifact so much, why didn’t they buy it back? Or why didn’t a wealthy Chinese individual buy it? It shoes the priorities of chinese people: namely, to eat noodles and have too many kids.

  49. If the Brits didn’t loot these artifacts originally, then the Commies would have. Or,worse, destroy them in some cultural revolution.
    Maybe the Brits did China a favour by removing these precious artifacts before they would have been smashed to pieces anyway.

  50. Funny to see the Chinese being so angry about this. They did manage to destroy a big part of their own history and culture during the cultural revolution. Why didn’t anybody say something at that time? Pigs are easy to brainwash

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