‘I Love My Motherland’ Poem Rejected, Becomes Viral Hit

143 Comments

1. john

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 12:15 pm

   haha 1st again.

   Reply
2. bossman

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 12:48 pm

   yawn… the motherland. Land of the blind.

   Reply
   • sukisungla

     Saturday, October 17, 2009 at 11:33 am

     bossman,
     please don’t insult india.

     Reply
3. Sara

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 12:53 pm

   我爱我的祖国！

   台湾，你母亲60大寿喊你回家吃饭！

   Reply
   • Joe

     Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 2:26 pm

     小共，11年你爷百岁大寿，喊你回家吃寿筵。 嘻嘻^^

     Reply
   • Peter

     Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 8:50 pm

     Sara,

     it’s great you love your motherland but you need to inform yourself a bit more about Taiwan. I appreciate its not easy when the China Gov has used political indoctrination for centuries but Taiwan is not part of China and the majority of the Taiwanese population has no desire whatsoever to “return to the motherland” as CCP and some in KMT call it. And please do not use the “we are all chinese” argument – this is like asking US americans to “return to the United Kingdom”.

     Happy “anniversary”.
     PS: China is much older and has a much richer culture than past 60 yrs of communist government; what abpout celebrating that instead of a the rule of a dictatorship.

     Reply
     • Sara

       Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:55 pm

       不管你们外国人觉得台湾是不是属于中国的，反正在我们大多数中国人的心里就是认为台湾是我们中国的。总有一天，台湾会回来参加妈妈的生日party的，哈哈！

       Reply
       • Fike2308

         Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 11:02 pm

         Taiwan doesn’t want to be part of Mainland China.

         Most Taiwanese do NOT consider themselves the same as Mainlanders.

         Reply
       • mlgb

         Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 5:16 pm

         @sara, 那大多数台湾人是怎么想呢？你知道你的看法叫什么吗——霸权主义。
         你爱怎么想，就怎么想，反正：”分久必合，合久必分“

         Reply
     • Charles

       Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 11:23 pm

       This was a reply to Kai in a previous post. Feel free to educate yourself Pete :)

       1.) Taiwan is not a country
       2.) Taiwan is not a sovereign nation
       3.) Taiwan is a rebel state belonging to Greater China

       To simplify this reply I will write in dot points so that it will be easier for you to rebut a specifc point rather than having to search through entire paragraphs.

       1

       a) Taiwan is not reocognised as a sovereign nation by United Nations and its members.

       (b)Political debate has been about Taiwan separating or claiming independance from China – this wording would implicitly imply that Taiwan is not considered an independent country.

       (c) Recently, Chinese anti-secession law allows a Chinese military attack on Taiwan to prevent the island from seeking independence.

       (d) The Olympics, which publically promotes sports over politics disallowed Taiwan to enter under even the Republic of China name. Taiwan was not allowed to play their national anthem and were registered as Chinese Taipei and prohibited to use their flag.

       2/3

       (a) Based on the reasoning that Taiwan is not an independent country in itself, this would correlate to the fact that Taiwan is a renegade/rebel country.

       (b) Based on your definition:

       (i) that Taiwan governs itself – this is not a distinguishing key factor of sovereignty – I could mention HK is the same but you are of course are emphasising the differences as being the key exceptions to why Taiwan is different. I’ll address this below.

       (ii) cannot be governed/controlled/influenced by outside forces such as Beijing

       - this could be poor wording on your behalf, but I’m sure that you are relying on (iii) to pull you out of it. As far as I’m aware, Taiwan can be controlled and influenced in more than one way through both Chinese legislation and international pressure both economically and politically by the PRC.

       (iii) any more than most countries (key point ^^)

       - Unfotunately, I dont think that this sneaky part of the sentence will help you here.

       China osentsibly has more control over Taiwan than most other countries. Not only do they have overwhelming political support but they are legally entitled through their own legislation – which I assume also has international support – to force Taiwan from declaring independance, seeing that it would be an internal affair. The United States would be bound by treaty to protect Taiwan if this happens, however this is a separate matter.

       Concluding remarks:

       The overwhelming debate about Taiwanese independance revolves around the acceptance of Taiwan being a region and not an independant country.

       As I mentioned in the previous post, there are political issues involved in the reason why Taiwan is not recognised as a country. However this does not change what is already considered a fact by the United Nations and most international organisations around the world.

       I believe that the Peoples Republic of China is claiming sovereignty of Taiwan is justified.

       (i) Firstly on the fact that Taiwan has not recognised as a sovereign country.

       (ii) The constitution of both the ROC and PRC recognises Taiwan as a province.

       (iii) When the Republic of China was in control of Mainland, led by the KMT. They were able to exercise sovereignty over the Mainland. The Republic of China continued to claim to be the sole legitimate government of China even after losing the civil war.

       While this is a positive statement which in itself is not relevant directly to the topic, we can still infer some important reasoning from it. If the Republic of China felt it could claim over the mainland, why could the PRC not claim sovereignty over Taiwan based on the same reasoning that a previous government which governed the nation of China now controls Taiwan – reverse logic.

       Peaceful reunification was not something I wanted to address – it was merely to poke fun at Cmfeirs. However, there reunification here is not used in its truse sense as Taiwan is not an independent country. Re-unification in government possibly.

       I need to point out that based on reverse logic on Taiwan’s continous claim to sovereignty over the mainland; based on the current stance of the United Nations; based on Chinese legislation and its impact on Taiwanese sovereignty; and based on Taiwan’s own view that it is not an independent country, that it is safe to infer that Taiwan is not a country by any standard and thus is only a renegade province that belongs to the PRC at this stage.

       Your comment about error of logic does not apply here. I would not say that Taiwan has always belonged to the PRC. However the ROC ceased to be a legitimate government upon the succession of the PRC which under the succession of states theory gives control to the PRC.

       Most importantly is that the constitution of the ROC states that Taiwan is a province of China which is not an independent country. As the PRC governs China, it also asserts sovereignty over the province which is Taiwan.

       Reply
       • chabuduoxiansheng

         Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 1:56 am

         You must have never been to the mainland before.

         Why someone would support the PRC prying their greasy fingers into Taiwan is beyond me. Taiwan is a founding member of the UN. The PRC flag has never flown over Taiwan. The mainland claiming Taiwan is theirs is like if India claimed Pakistan as their own. It doesn’t matter that Pakistan was once referred to as part of the Indian world, the fact remains that Pakistan before partition was just another province in a large subcontinent of warring factions.

         Just as Taiwan was long ago a dangerous island where adventurous Fujianese, Western traders, Japanese pirates, and Qing soldiers went off into the bush to try to find fortune. It’s long been a place without a unified government, the CCP has never been that government. They didn’t inherit that which was once the Qing’s. The CCP utilized its so-called national army, the PLA (which btw is actually a personal army exclusively used to protect the party)and waged war with East Turkestan, Tibet, and other provinces to claim that land which it now has. And they call us imperialists.

         If any country could stake a legitimate claim on Taiwan using the so-called logic of the CCP in its case over Taiwan it would be Japan. Of course, the Japanese are both respectful and intelligent enough to realize how ridiculous such a claim would be.

         In conclusion, you are way out of line in making such bogus claims over the sovereign status of Taiwan. If you actually understood the mentality of the mainlanders you would not be so quick to make such a judgement.

         Besides who listens to the UN anyway. They allowed Darfur to become a genocide not allowing the US to intervene (they’re all dead now btw), dragged their heels over Iraq, and we are now that much closer to a nuclear war with North Korea.

         Reply
         • Wan

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:20 am

           Well written. The People’s Republic gains nothing by claiming Taiwan. If they just let it go, they would gain much respect in the world.

           A military operation against Taiwan would only result in a lot of needless death and destruction on both sides of the straits. Just imagine if Taiwan retaliated by taking out Shanghai landmarks. Greater China would be humiliated.
         • ybin

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 5:55 am

           We all know why Pakistan and India were separated – when the British left, they wanted to make sure that conflicts and rivalry were left behind on the subcontinent. Where conflicts and rivalry exist, foreign elements could intervene.

           Why do you think the British cobbled together a “democracy” in Hong Kong at the last minute before they left their colony, while in the 100 years of British rule they never instituted democracy there?

           The purpose was to create conflict and rivalry between mainland and Hong Kong.

           Such is the politics pursued by the British and more relevantly for modern times, their Anglo-saxon cousins in North America.

           Their purpose is to create instability in the world so that they could retain control over the world.

           Dark and sinister is an understatement.

           That is why they are backing the separation of Taiwan from China. There is never a legal justification to do so.
         • ybin

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 8:08 am

           ybin,

           Your logic falters when you realise that rivalries will occur so long as different nations eist. Even if the Partition didn’t happen, what’s to stop India from forming rivalries with other countries, like say Iran or China?

           Hell, even that arch-imperialist Churchill didn’t want to partition India.

           Secondly, if I were to be sinister, I would have partitioned India into 20 different nation, as opposed to just 2.
         • C&N

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 8:44 am

           well written my arse. there is no justification moral, political, legal or otherwise, why taiwan should separate from china. and what the hell is that guy on about japan having legitimate claims over any part of china’s territory?? taiwan is not the bastard child of japan’s dirty imperialist past.

           china was poor just a few decades ago and her people unenlightened but that is fast changing. there is no longer the shame and stigma attached to association with china – just go to hk and see how attitudes have changed. taiwan was born from the blood of china’s own people and therefore it is only right and just that we reconcile. the founding of prc (not even one generation ago) also marks the sad day that our brother split from the family. reunification beats in the hearts of most chinese people just as it does for koreans and once did for germans.

           so all you impressionable ignorants, misguided weekend activists and meddling agents of politicking governments; stand aside. your cause is neither just nor winnable. the chinese will stand proud, strong and unified in this 21 century.

           that is our will and that will be the result.
         • Charles

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 11:53 am

           Cut and paste since you’re obviosly ignorant

           the ROC ceased to be a legitimate government upon the succession of the PRC which under the succession of states theory gives control to the PRC.
         • Charles

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:11 pm

           Chabuduoxiansheng I’m not trying to convince you that the People’s Republic of China has sovereignty over Taiwan, I’m TELLING you its a fact.

           Read above post if you have the intellect to do so.

           I’ll summarise it in case you don’t

           1.) PRC sovereignty over Taiwan recognised by UN.
           2.) PRC sovereignty expressly recognised by the USA.
           3.) PRC sovereignty implied in ROC/PRC constitution
           4.) PRC legislation allows military attack against TW independance.
           5.) PRC sovereignty recognised by all major organisations including Olympics, Corporations, etc.
           6.) ROC considers themselves part of Greater China by holding a referendum to separate.
           7.) ROC part of China through succession of states theory.

           List goes on…
         • chabuduoxiansheng

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 10:23 pm

           Good on you, Charles. Using non sequitur to get your point across will not work. You have completely ignored the examples I have given in favor of your CCP doctoral thesis.

           Following your logic states such as Tibet and the former East Turkestan Republic(present day Xinjiang) are a part of the Chinese empire due to the succession of states theory. So since Xinjiang was no longer a part of the empire once the Qing fell after 1911 but didn’t have the capabilities to establish its own stable government in time before the invasion by PLA forces in the 50s. Further, if this line of thinking applies then one can make the argument that Mongolia, Vietnam, etc should also be a part of the red beast.

           Moving along, Taiwan was once a faraway post and at sometimes safe haven for Ming loyalists throughout Chinese history. Once the Japanese left after defeat in WWII Taiwan was just fair game for China to “reclaim”, correct?

           Alright so if Zheng He actually made it America in the early 1400′s, then America could also be claimed as another piece of 中國.

           太不像話了
         • Kai

           Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 2:32 am

           MC Hot Dog,

           If any country could stake a legitimate claim on Taiwan using the so-called logic of the CCP in its case over Taiwan it would be Japan. Of course, the Japanese are both respectful and intelligent enough to realize how ridiculous such a claim would be.

           Uh, what? What so-called logic of the CCP are you referring to that Japan could use to stake a claim over Taiwan?
       • gth793y

         Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 3:51 am

         “3.) Taiwan is a rebel state belonging to Greater China”

         Perhaps, the mainland is a rebel state belonging to the KMT.

         Reply
         • too yellow

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:16 am

           民国几年了,还党国党国的. 真是连土共都比你有长进
         • Charles

           Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 1:44 am

           Chabuduoxiansheng

           Sure Taiwan, Xin Jiang and Tibet are part of China. The examples you have given are irrelevent to a given fact of law and politics. Do I need to affirm or disaffirm anything you’ve said? Figures….
       • Peter

         Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 11:50 am

         Charles,

         reads like a PhD thesis from CCP’s propaganda ministry – or maybe you are a KMT member or maybe both..

         In any case.. you and I and everybody know that Taiwan was *forced* out of UN based on CCP pressure in ’71. Fact is Taiwan has all the attributes of an independent country (democratic elected government, own currency,etc,etc) but is denied the “soverign nation” status purely because of CCPs pressure (same is true for Olympics – everybody know the “Chinese Taipei” garbage is because of CCP pressure and not because the rest of the world has any interest whatsoever)

         It is obvious that China as the most populous country in the world and as a fast growing financial superpower (in near future likely to be *the* superpower) is using size and money to force decisions – just like most people likely will give a robber whatever he demands if you have a gun pointed to your head. This is not a decision based on rule of law but pure force.

         As for your arguments about (part of old-school) KMT claiming to be the rightful government for China as well as Taiwan you are right on; in most cases KMT and CCP are like a set of competing twin-siblings both claiming something that is not theirs (as you know KMT fled to Taiwan in ’49). Majority of mainland Taiwanese have no interest in “ruling” China and simply just want China to mind her own business and leave Taiwan alone.

         Reply
         • Charles

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:04 pm

           Pete, the fact stand that the sovereignty of Taiwan belongs the to the Peoples Republic of China. Regardless of your conspiracy about political coercion.

           Dissenters can continue to blast normative statements like ‘should this’ and ‘should that’ and ‘its only because of this’, however how is that going to change a pre-existing fact?
         • Josh

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:45 pm

           I suppose Charles does make a point. Taiwan is a part of the PRC — but it’s obvious to any onlooker that it’s only in name, and the fact that most members of the UN maintain relations with the Taiwanese government through unofficial organizations only adds to how ridiculous the CCP looks (along with those Chinese who say so) whenever they say that it’s none of any foreigner’s business or that the Taiwanese should rejoin the big happy family. I wonder how many people that say that have ever actually met a Taiwanese.

           Considering that no Taiwanese political party has ever run on a platform of immediate reunification, and polls show that most Taiwanese prefer the status quo for the foreseeable future, it’s especially amusing when people proudly proclaim that only a handful of Taiwanese want continued separation from the mainland or state their belief that America is behind a master plan to bring down China and split the nation and are hurting everyone’s feelings. Honestly, grow up already. I understand, though, Charles, that the question being debated is whether or not the Taiwan is legally a part of China, but I think the more important question is whether it ACTUALLY is.
       • Kai

         Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 2:26 am

         Charles,

         First off, I want to apologize for not responding to your previous reply. I had forgotten about that conversation and chinaSMACK has been a bit unreliable lately. It has been hard to simply browse chinaSMACK, much less comment.

         I have not read through this entire thread for this post, but I’m going to go ahead and respond to what you said was your response to an earlier thread (that I can’t recall the title for, what was it?). I am, however, going to respond to you with a post on CNR.

         There are several reasons for this:

         1. I’m trying to stay out of the hog pen that chinaSMACK often becomes (I’ll probably fail).

         2. I want to branch this discussion about Taiwan into its own separate thread without taking over this post’s comments.

         3. CNR has far less traffic than chinaSMACK so it’ll be easier for me to post replies and discuss this topic on CNR instead of staring at 500 and 503 errors on chinaSMACK.

         4. Writing my thoughts on the subject as a blog post will allow me to link back to it in future discussions where it is relevant, rather than referring to “a previous comment”.

         5. Your arguments are instructive and I believe our discussion would be of some benefit to more than just us and the people viewing this comment thread.

         In general, I disagree with your position and think your arguments are unnecessarily unpersuasive. If you care to continue, head on over to…

         “Taiwan is a Renegade Province Because China Says So“

         Reply
         • chabuduoxiansheng

           Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 9:46 am

           My point is simple, Kai. China has never occupied Taiwan for as long as Japan had (50 years). Not to mention the fact that the CCP has never held power in Taiwan. Therefore, if anyone can claim any historical rights to Taiwan it would certainly be the Japanese, whom developed Taiwan, instituted sweeping land reforms, sanitation laws, etc. the list goes on and on. Things that the Chinese settlers of the past never accomplished. This is of course if you accept the logic of the CCP and ROC which claims
           Taiwan as its own because of Chinese settlers being there a long time back. How this is not a point of contention is lost on me. Perhaps it has a lot to do with those who argue the rights of Taiwan are only seeing the argument from two angles, or it’s most likely another one of those Chinese things.
         • Kai

           Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 1:40 pm

           cbdxs,

           I don’t see that Japanese claim being remotely similar to “the so-called logic of the CCP in its case over Taiwan”. That was why I asked what I did. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds to me that the “so-called logic” you’re saying the CCP is using is that there have been Chinese settlers on Taiwan in the past, so it is their’s. And you’re saying, if we accept that “so-called logic”, then if anyone has any claim it would be the Japanese.

           I don’t see how that works.

           If we determine who should have Taiwan today based upon who settled there first, it would probably first go to the aborigines, then the Chinese (we can argue about Dutch, Portugese, Spanish, and French too), and lastly the Japanese. After the Japanese, it was the ROC, which are Chinese.

           If, however, we determine who should have Taiwan today based upon who first made significant investments in the island’s infrastructure, then sure, maybe we could argue for the Japanese. They certainly did a lot, though we can’t say the Qing didn’t start some of it themselves. However, my point is that’s not the same logic you’re accusing the CCP of. That’s a different criteria: Settlement vs Development.

           Okay, in general, I know what you’re saying, but I thought your statement was strangely and inaccurately worded. I wasn’t sure if you were referring to something I wasn’t aware of and that’s, again, why I asked.

           For the record, I think we can now say that the ROC has held and developed Taiwan longer and more than Japan did during its 50 year rule. The ROC, of course, is not synonymous with the PRC.

           The Japanese do not claim Taiwan because they have no historical claim or control over it. They conquered it before, but officially relinquished it. I don’t think it needs to be exaggerated to a statement about Japanese intelligence or respectfullness vis a vis Chinese. The PRC has never had control over Taiwan and must appeal to a previous government to have any sort of claim over it. The ROC has present day control over it and have both historical and present day claims over it. The arguments and claims here are all easily dissected and understood. There’s no need for facetious remarks about this being “one of those Chinese things” as if it cannot be understood. It is neither Chinese nor difficult to understand.
         • Fike2308

           Saturday, September 26, 2009 at 5:03 pm

           Oh boy, another discussion about taiwan….does every thread/forum here have to turn into a discussion about taiwan?
     • Gaad!

       Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 8:32 am

       Actually many in the ROC do consider themselves Chinese, just not necessarily Communist Chinese. Ethnic and cultural affinity does not necessarily equate ideological or political affinity. Too many in the PRC/ROC and in the West confuse the one with the other.

       Reply
   • C&N

     Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 7:36 am

     that’s awesome!!

     Reply
4. whichone

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 1:14 pm

   Holy shit, 新白娘子传奇! (Legend of the White Snake)

   The dub is amazing, not just over the dialogue but 黄梅戏 as well!

   In comparison the poem itself is nothing spectacular (as if I know squat about poems) and secondary to the fantastic dubs.

   Reply
   • chabuduoxiansheng

     Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 7:59 pm

     Kai,

     Good point. I should be more clear in my claim of what constitutes legitimacy over governance. I was talking about development as opposed to settlement. Thanks for pointing that out. What I’m really trying to get across is that I feel Taiwan has nothing in common with the PRC, and that any talk towards reunification seems silly.

     I apologize for the unnecessary comments on this being something “Chinese”. Uncalled for.

     Reply
5. lasttoblame

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 1:54 pm

   I am also neither a great judge of poetry, but I don’t think the quality is important in accordance to how it has captured the fascination of Chinese netizens. It’s a way for them to be creatively patriotic and get involved; I think most Chinese love China no matter how many tanks or planes are on display.

   Awesome.

   A question: just how different is a London accent from a South Wales, or Cockney for that matter. Don’t laowai speaking Putonghua all sound the same?

   Reply
6. lala28

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 2:10 pm

   98岁的儿子60岁的妈，5000年的历史变60.

   Reply
   • gth793y

     Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 3:54 am

     elegantly put,

     the absurdity of this great argument captured in two lines.

     Reply
7. PUSAN PLAYA

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 4:00 pm

   Do people like the poem because it’s patriotic or because it contains so much sexual innuendo? I can’t read Chinese very well so I can’t tell.

   Reply
   • Gaad!

     Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 8:58 am

     Irrespective of whether you read Chinese very well or not you can’t tell jack period. Probably explains why your Pusan is such a puss having been given the once over too often by strangers you thought was your “daddy”.

     Reply
   • Camela

     Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 9:18 am

     Haha, now that you mentioned it, it can totally be read that way!

     First verse:
     Admiring the big boobs, big penis

     Second verse:
     Foreplay, “passion surging”, getting wet

     Third verse:
     Sowing the seeds, Impregnating the open field

     fourth verse:
     The afterglow

     I’d be surprised if there’s no “sexy version” already.

     Reply
   • whichone

     Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 1:11 pm

     No, the innuendo in the English version doesn’t exist in the Chinese version, at least I didn’t pick it up. The corniness is in both though.

     Reply
8. Fike2308

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 4:03 pm

   I love my motherland too….and it’s older than China!

   Reply
   • C&N

     Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 7:42 am

     your momma is only 20. what are you talking about?

     Reply
   • C&N

     Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 7:43 am

     and she wants you to go home for dinner

     Reply
     • Fike2308

       Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:12 pm

       C & N – Please stop trolling me and go troll your gay lover’s butthole, he misses you and so does gaad!

       Seriously, if you think that I’m going to go to bed with you by following me all over this thread and posting stupid insults then you are seriously mistaking.

       Repeat: Troll gaad! because he will give you the gay satisfaction you crave.

       Reply
       • Gaad!

         Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 8:33 am

         Fike obviously misses moi…. hehehehe!

         Reply
       • C&N

         Friday, September 25, 2009 at 9:57 pm

         how about if i give you $1?

         Reply
9. Alan

   Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 4:20 pm

   http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/archaeological-find-puts-back-settlement-of-istanbul-by-6000-years_100102997.html

   By rights, the Turks should be able to say they have a older civilization than the Chinese.

   Reply
   • Fike2308

     Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 5:17 pm

     By my count, China is only 60 years old.

     Reply
     • Alan

       Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 9:36 pm

       Haha, send me a pm. Saw L ****z today. Wondering whats up?

       Reply
     • Gaad!

       Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 8:46 am

       What a poor, dummes Arschlecker of a motherfiker qui’s been shafted que trop souvent and now pas comprendre properly die Worte. It’s the PRC that’s 60 years old and as for how old “China” really is, who knows.

       Reply
   • Byron

     Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 6:15 pm

     If they can be claimed by anyone, it should be prehistoric Greeks, not Turks. The Turkic people migrated from Altai Mountain area of central Asia and spread westwards around 11th A.D.

     Civilization isn’t synonymous with human culture, important characteristics include complex political system, i.e. the existence of state, writing system, clear social hierarchies. These remains were later determined to be from the neolithic age, predating ancient civilizations.

     If this is some attempt to bring the famous cultural hubris of Han Chinese down a knotch or two, it isn’t that great a choice. There are plenty of civilizations which either predated or had comparable history as the Chinese culture: Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Indian, Phoenician, Persian…list goes on.

     Reply
     • Fike2308

       Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 7:23 pm

       Yeah, the cultures/civilizations you mentioned are at least as old as China if not older….still, sometimes I think the “China is 5,000 years old” isn’t entirely true…I mean, I could argue the same about the USA by tracing it’s culture back to Athens, Jerusalem, Rome, Europe, etc.

       And there were people living on the North American continent before the European settlers arrived.

       Reply
       • Byron

         Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 8:45 pm

         Including Xia, China has ~4000 years of history, but it’s somewhat controversial, if we count from Shang it’s about ~3500 years of history, I think the number 5000 either came from myth or is picked for a nice round number that sounds good.

         Okay, the united states culture is pretty heavily rooted in anglo-saxon culture from England and parts of Europe, but I think Athen, Jerusalem, Native American etc are stretching it too far.

         Reply
         • Fike2308

           Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:44 pm

           @ Byron

           Well, you have to realize that a lot of American/Western culture has been heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition (not Confucious or Buddhism, etc.) which originated in Israel. I mean the New Testament was written in GREEK..and medieval Europe was almost entirely dominated by the Catholic Church and Scholasticism….so, it’s more than reasonable to say that many important aspects of American culture were derived from Israel…take a crash course in Western Civilization if you think I’m making this up.

           Do I really need to explain the influence of Athens/Ancient Greece on Western Culture — America? Ever heard of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle? They weren’t Chinese!

           Ok, and here is a snipet from Wikipedia:

           The term “Western culture” is used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, religious beliefs, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies. Specifically, Western culture may imply:

           a Graeco-Roman Classical and Renaissance cultural influence, concerning artistic, philosophic, literary, and legal themes and traditions, the cultural social effects of migration period and the heritages of Celtic Germanic etc. ethnic groups, as well as a tradition of rationalism in various spheres of life, developed by Hellenistic philosophy, Scholasticism, Humanisms, the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment, and including, in political thought, widespread rational arguments in favour of freethought, human rights, equality and democratic values averse to despotism, irrationality and theocracy.
           a Biblical-Christian cultural influence in spiritual thinking, customs and either ethic or moral traditions, around Post-Classical Era.
           Western European cultural influences concerning artistic, musical, folkloric, ethic and oral traditions, whose themes have been further developed by Romanticism.
         • Wan

           Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:52 pm

           Most history is made up anyways. It’s 80 percent creative thought based on 20 percent evidence. It’s very human to create myths and cults of personality around very limited data. Everyone wants to feel important. Somehow coming from an “ancient” culture makes us feel more important. It’s no surprise that every government attempts to control the historical narrative. The CCP uses history as an effective propaganda tool.
         • Fike2308

           Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:53 pm

           Sorry about the first paragraph from my previous post….kind of sloppy.

           Judeo-Christian Faith:

           Torah/Old Testament: Written in Hebrew, Jewish origin
           New Testament: Written in Greek, Based on Judaism and also influenced by Greece.

           From this tradition springs Catholocism….then Luther rebels and Protestants emerge…eventually, some people start to flee Europe to go to what would become America and one of their motives was religious freedom.
         • Fike2308

           Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:55 pm

           @ Wan – Every modern culture is somehow based on an ancient culture(s) and its traditions.
         • Byron

           Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:11 am

           @Fike2308

           You are absolutely correct, I did not mean to say that American values were not based on and heavily influenced by the ancient western civilizations, juedo-christian values, and I know you are not making this up. (and they obviously aren’t Chinese).

           I was thinking about (but obviously failed to get across) culture as a narrower sense that is related to/delineated by the people, locale, and language, state etc. So while you are correct to say many important American (U.S.) culture were derived from cultures of west, they aren’t American culture in the same sense as Emerson or Thoreau which are distinctly American. Emergence of distinct cultures are heavily intertwined with language, as shared language is the most important carrier of culture. Similarly anthropological considerations of culture terms it universal human capacity to classify and encode their experiences symbolically.

           The (somewhat) analogous example could be applied to say that ancient Chinese culture was heavily influenced by Buddhism from India but you’d never trace Chinese culture back to the Indus valley civilization. Japanese culture are influenced by Chinese culture in various points in history, but theirs is a distinct culture wouldn’t be classified into Chinese anymore than the U.S. could into Greek or Roman cultures.

           This is just my personal take as lay person, and am certainly not trying put down the U.S. culture in anyway, the definition of culture is pretty complicated and not all people agree (just look at the “Culture” page on wikipedia, yikeS!).
         • GAC

           Saturday, September 26, 2009 at 12:49 pm

           @Fike, linking American culture to Israel because “the Old Testament was written in Hebrew” is kind of like linking Chinese culture to ancient Indian cultures because of the influence of Buddhism. In both cases, local cultures significantly changed the religions in question.

           In China, local gods were subsumed into the Buddhist belief system, and adjustment was made for cultural norms such as meat-eating and filial piety that would have seemed at odds with Buddhist practices before. Add to that a lot of influence from local philosophies like Daosim and Confucianism and you have a very different religion.

           In the West, the Romans essentially reorganized the Bible to support their own legitimacy. As Christianity spread, it picked up local pagan customs and festivals and added a new “Christian” meaning to them. Add to that another major edit to the Bible in the King James Version, still the main text of most American churches though Biblical scholars generally think it’s a poor translation. Over time, various European cultures changed Christianity as much or more so than Chinese culture changed Buddhism, leading to what we see today.
         • Fike2308

           Saturday, September 26, 2009 at 4:51 pm

           @ Gac

           So, are you saying that all of the academic scholars, historians and ivy league professors who say that western culture/civilization originated in Jerusalem and Athens are wrong and you are right?

           I’m sorry but I’m going to stick with them instead of you.

           I have no problem with your analysis and history of Christianity but the fact remains that it did ORIGINATE in Jerusalem and still has a strong influence on American culture.

           As far as contemporary China goes it strikes me as much more Confucian (sorry if I spelled that wrong) than Buddhist and I like a lot of people would agree.

           Now, Southeast Asian countries, on the other hand, are very very buddhist and you can see the influence that India had on the culture of countries like Thailand and Laos.

           My point is that I think it’s a little silly when people say that China is 5,000 years old and America is around 200 years old because Western Civilization from which America stems is thousands of years old and “New China” is 60 years old.

           Anyway, that’s my opinion and you’re free to disagree with me because that’s the American way.
         • Fike2308

           Saturday, September 26, 2009 at 4:59 pm

           @ Gac

           Here’s an example:

           Western culture, which influenced the whole world, came from Europe. But its roots are not there. They are in Athens and Jerusalem. European culture takes its bearing from references that are not in Europe: Europe is eccentric.
           What makes the West unique? What is the driving force behind its culture? Rémi Brague takes up these questions in Eccentric Culture. This is not another dictionary of European culture, nor a measure of the contributions of a particular individual, religion, or national tradition. The author’s interest is especially, with regard to the transmission of that culture, to articulate the dynamic tension that has propelled Europe and more generally the West toward civilization. It is this mainspring of European culture, this founding principle, that Brague calls “Roman.”

           Yet the author’s intent is not to write a history of Europe, and less yet to defend the historical reality of the Roman Empire. Brague rather isolates and generalizes one aspect of that history or, one might say, cultural myth, of ancient Rome. The Roman attitude senses its own incompleteness and recognizes the call to borrow from what went before it.

           Historically, it has led the West to borrow from the great traditions of Jerusalem and Athens: primarily the Jewish and Christian tradition, on the one hand, and the classical Greek tradition on the other. Nowhere does the author find this Roman character so strongly present as in the Christian and particularly Catholic attitude toward the incarnation.

           At once an appreciation of the richness and diversity of the sources and their fruit, Eccentric Culture points as well to the fragility of their nourishing principle. As such, Brague finds in it not only a means of understanding the past, but of projecting a future in (re)proposing to the West, and to Europe in particular, a model relationship of what is proper to it.

           An international bestseller (translated from the original French edition of Europe, La Voie Romaine), this work has been or is presently being translated into thirteen languages.

           http://www.amazon.com/Eccentric-Culture-Theory-Western-Civilization/dp/1890318140
         • GAC

           Sunday, October 4, 2009 at 1:01 pm

           @Fike

           I am not arguing that there is no connection at all. I was simply trying to make the argument that the relationship is more complex than a simple linear descent. There is certainly strong influence from ancient Israel, but there are other influences to American culture as well, from the Germanic origins of the Anglo-Saxons, to the Celtic cultures that existed in Britain when the Anglo-Saxons came in (and were there before the Romans as well), as well as a smattering of influence from Native Americans and various immigrant groups. No appeal to authority will erase the fact that those influences do exist.

           In any case, you are absolutely correct to note that the modern nation states of the United States of America and the People’s Republic of China are 200+ and 60 years old, respectively. If your objective was to point out the 5000 years claim as exaggerated at best and fabricated at worst, you succeded. I do have an inkling that China could claim a “deeper history” in some ways, such as the territory of China being populated mainly by Han for a very long time (though my knowledge is admittedly limited, and I’m sure there are some complexities there), as opposed to the dominant culture of the United States consisting of a group that arrived there around 400 years ago. Whether that “deeper history” really has much significance beyond the cultural pride it generates I’m not so sure.
         • Fike2308

           Sunday, October 4, 2009 at 10:36 pm

           @ Gac – Fair enough. Sounds like we’re pretty much on the same page.

           I don’t really mind the 5000 year claim that much I just think it’s exagerrated, boasted about far too often and not that impressive.
   • krdr

     Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 6:47 pm

     Turks came much-much later

     Reply
   • FYIADragoon

     Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:18 am

     Most countries have an older civilization than the Chinese. They killed off all the culture that this poem’s referring to. By my count, the USA has an older civilization.

     Reply
10. Tommy

    Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    For the love of God, I cant stand this shit.
    If I’m not mistaken isnt that first video Borris Johnson the mayor of London? Well can you imagine the uproar if someone dubbed Mr Hu saying he loves his motherland, England?
    This double standard is starting to really get to me. I couldnt give a shit about Borris Johnson I just cant stand the attitude that they think they are allowed to do this shit.

    Reply
    • Fike2308

      Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 5:15 pm

      Totally true, but I don’t think most Chinese people grasp the concept of a double standard.

      It reminds me of elementary school…the way some of my peers were in my childhood until we either realized and/or were taught that hypocrisy isn’t desirable.

      I’m really proud of the fact that I’m NOT Chinese.

      Reply
    • Fike2308

      Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 5:16 pm

      It would be kind of a fun experiment to make videos of Hu Jin Tao and Mao Zedong praising western countries….just to see China’s reaction ;)

      Reply
      • m

        Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 8:28 pm

        Already exists. Also for McDonalds.
        But who gives a shit? Only fucktards like you think anybody cares.

        Reply
        • Fike2308

          Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:31 pm

          Now, this is EXACTLY the kind of reaction I would expect ;)

          Thanks to m for proving my point, haha.

          Typical hyper-sensitive/angry defender of all things labelled “Chinese”….ignore logic, just insult people who disagree or don’t worship your government, great strategy!

          Reply
          • C&N

            Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 8:49 am

            were you dropped on your head or are you just naturally retarded?

            my sympathies in either case
          • Alan

            Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 9:45 pm

            I agree with what you say regarding the uber touchy defensiveness, but I wouldn’t say it’s something uniquely Chinese.

            I’ve met more than one American citizen, who did the same brainwashed Bush is right, God is on our side argument when I dared raise the downsides of the war in Iraq, and the fact that Iran is also in the crosshairs. Granted, not all American people support Bush or war, but the indoctrination from the Bush era still lingers on.

            The great difference I can see is that people in America can disagree and not blindly worship a government and think for themselves, not much freedom of thought in the place that can’t be mentioned.
          • Gaad!

            Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 8:51 am

            MotherFiker simply has no self-awareness, kinda reminds me of a drooling, snot-nosed toddler. Such a cutesy-pie, non? Makes moi wanna pinch his cheeky cheeks and it dosen’t matter which end…
    • lasttoblame

      Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 6:53 pm

      Dude, I think the idea is for the poem to be read by a foreigner (read: white guy) so that you can have a version spoken with an English accent (read: poor putonghua). I don’t think there’s a deeper meaning than that to all the folks enjoying this meme.

      I guess the situation is more sensationalized with lip lync guy being a politician (i don’t recognize him), but really, according to your argument you’d be incensed by anyone faux-reading it.

      Remember the context: Chinasmack is a window for Westerners looking in on Chinese web culture. In that respect, we should try to see it that way.

      Double standard? You seem surprised–and you shouldn’t be. But that’s really not the point. Save your upset for the guy beating up his wife in public, or the oil company that caused an environmental disaster whereupon local citizens CONDONED it by looting (Yay! The Oil co. accident is my gain!).

      Reply
      • Tommy

        Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 9:22 am

        Well I’m decidedly less hungover today and therefore less angry at the world, however, the British had a TV show in the eighties where puppets of the government leaders made fools of themselves. [spitting image, I think it was called] Making fun of politicians is one thing. But I know how blindly nationalistic these people are and thats what grates me. “They” would never accept this kind of insult.

        Reply
    • FYIADragoon

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:16 am

      This is the same group of idiots that get up in arms when the USA slaps ‘em with a tire tax, but doesn’t have any problem with their ridiculously restricted importation of American entertainment (music, film, games,etc.) which is the thing that SINGLEhandedly has made their little pirate market explode in growth.

      China is just a bunch of little bitchy hypocrites.

      Reply
      • whichone

        Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 7:41 am

        So true. These people spend all day screaming free trade and market economy but when their unregulated financial markets sinks the world economy, and workers are laid off, it’s protectionism time! While passing tariff laws, they urge everyone else to or lower trade barriers, for the sake of recovery.

        ugh, Chinese hypocrites!

        Reply
        • FYIADragoon

          Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 2:10 am

          China’s market is ridiculously restricted, its just that the labor is so used and vaunted that it clouds the view of people. And you think a small tire tax is going to effect CHINA? Did you even read my post? Have you even attended a real university? Seriously, I know Chinese economic studies are about 10 years behind Western ones, but thats no reason to be a complete fool.

          Reply
          • Kai

            Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 2:48 am

            Interesting, what makes you think whichone attended economic classes in China? Just because he disagreed with you?
          • Anders

            Friday, September 25, 2009 at 9:56 am

            Kai, you fucktard, you don’t have to attend economics classes in China to know something about their economics. Just look at their monetary policy. They’ve fucked themselves by pegging their currency to the US Dollar and relying too much on exports. Current accounts are rebalancing and the Chinese worker is going to be fuuucked, because all the new bank lending this year is going into the pockets of apparatchiks and never getting paid back. Result: overcapacity problems exacerbated, inventories built up with no buyers in sight, and unemployment eventually skyrockets. Oh, and their banks’s capital reserves dwindle to nothing. Great strategy.
          • Kai

            Friday, September 25, 2009 at 1:26 pm

            Anders, you fucktard. Where did I say anyone had to attend economics classes in China to know anything about Chinese economics? You have no idea what I’m talking about. Re-read the thread carefully. I’m commenting on why FYIDragoon is assuming whichone’s economic education was Chinese. Thank you for trying to educate me on something I already know but has nothing to do with my comment.
          • whichone

            Friday, September 25, 2009 at 5:31 pm

            LOL, another hilarious non sequitur in the retarded narrative that is often ChinaSMACK.

            Our story starts, as stories often do, with a conflict. Tommy expresses his drunken outrage and indignation at the use of former London mayor, thereby staking out a corner on the blogo real estate of this ChinaSMACK story. Many gather, complete with deliberate trolls and unintentional idiots along with sincere voices. Each one carves their own territory to voice their often inane opinions.

            As one of the resident idiots, FYIAD set up shop at said corner and voices his hypocritical opinion of the economy while bitching at China’s perceived bitchiness. I, a wannabe witty asshole with giant aspirations and midget abilities, arrive to mock him and point out his hypocrisy. Annoyed, FYIAD launches ad hominem attack at me that questions my education and intelligence. It is at this point that our well reasoned, though often verbose resident sage arrives. Kai quietly points out FYIAD’s fallacious argument. Just as all parties think about this and get ready to leave, a rabid Anders charges in, finds the nearest person, and bites Kai in the ass. And the story concludes with Kai stunned and furious, Anders still probably foaming at the mouth, FYIAD, the original characters feeling left out, and me laughing hysterically on otherwise slow Thursday night.

            Just another day on the internet.
          • Anders

            Friday, September 25, 2009 at 7:20 pm

            :) any excuse to bite Kai in the ass

            I was just hoping for one of Kai’s 10,000 word replies.
          • Tommy

            Saturday, September 26, 2009 at 3:39 pm

            ahem, I was hungover not drunk!!!!!
11. lala29

    Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    1911年那个妈早已经给党国操得翘掉了，现在那个岛上的是个丫头养的2B，美国爹不亲，日本娘不敢要。

    Reply
12. lasttoblame

    Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    The Megatron version is nothing short of awesome. And when I mean awesome, I mean 80′s awesome. To the extreme!

    Reply
    • Fike2308

      Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 7:19 pm

      Transformers do tend to make almost anything cool or at least cooler.

      Reply
      • m

        Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 8:30 pm

        True if you have the mental age of a 10 year old.

        Reply
        • Fike2308

          Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:27 pm

          Well, then they should be much more popular in China than the developed world (where we enjoy it for the sake of nostalgia).

          Reply
          • FYIADragoon

            Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:14 am

            Because all it takes to amuse an uneducated person is something shiny.
      • Alan

        Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 9:47 pm

        After just seeing Star Trek, I’m gonna have to say….Transformers can’t teleport or punch out at warp speed. Votes on best summer movie of 2009?

        Reply
13. Developing China

    Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    I LOVE MY MOTHERLAND!!!

    THIS IS CHIIIIIIIIIIIINA!!!

    Reply
14. Wan

    Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 11:06 pm

    Patriotism and nationalism are stupid. It’s okay to appreciate culture/traditions. But seriously, loving a country. That’s stupid. There is a high probability that in the next 200 or so years China (or any other country) won’t exist in its current form. Only culture/traditions will sustain.

    Reply
15. FYIADragoon

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:12 am

    All the mainlanders bitching about how Taiwan is a country and if they declare independence they’re going to get attacked by China, I’ve got big news for your pathetically informed selves. China’s bigass army is pathetically weak in comparison to modern armies. Guess which country actually possesses an effective modern army specifically because of the PRC threat? TAIWAN MOTHER******. I dare China to pull that sh*t. I’m gonna be laughing my ass off as Taiwanese people post up Youtube vids (haven’t been there for a while, have you?) of Chinese aerial assault forces getting annihilated. And your navy? Oh lord, don’t get me started on that fleet of dingys.

    Too bad the great China that this poem is written for isn’t the one that will be receiving it.

    Reply
    • FYIADarkTemplar

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:30 pm

      Hey Dragoon, been playing too much starcraft? ;)

      The Republic of China beat the People’s Republic of China? You gotta be kidding me? ^^ If every person in China shat on your tiny Island, it would make it a nice little resovoir of turd in the middle of the ocean.

      Taiwan will have all its electricity cut, media infiltrated, leaders assassinated before they have the chance to retaliate. Although they should let Ma Ying-Jeou to come to the Mainland for his valuable service to the mother land ^^.

      Hahahahaha.. Don’t get too upset that I’m taking the crap out of Taiwan. I don’t really mean it. I mean, I couldn’t bear the thought of the MODERN amry of Taiwan then getting taken down by ballistic missiles after having the rest of their defense infrastructure desecrated.

      Don’t worry the PRC won’t really do anything. Taiwanese are way too obedient. Now all they need to wait for is the PRC puppet Ma to implement reforms to re-educate the younger generation. The older generation don’t have a problem with seeing themselves as Chinese. The modern generation are just retards who cant speak Mandarin properly and have this incredible fixation on the only thing Taiwan does well, coming up with lame pop songs while attempting to look Japanese.

      I look forward to the next fifty years. Unlike some Mainland Chinese who are so simple minded and want to see a nuclear show on the island, I dont think thats good idea.

      Although a ballistic missile show targeted on some critical targets would be awesome to watch. No war is without casualty so I wouldn’t mind seeing some lives sacraficed in the name of politics. It’ll be good for Taiwan; get rid of some bad blood :):):)

      Reply
      • FYIADragoon

        Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 2:05 am

        SPOILER ALERT DURR HURR I AM NOT TAIWANESE

        No its not actually a reference to that, though I share your love of teh starcrafts.

        You’re making the same childish argument every mainlander makes, which kills your credibility right there, as you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about: WE HAVE MOAR PEOPLE DURR HURR, SO NATURALLY WE WIN. This isn’t the dark age. Warfare has moved beyond numbers to a large extent in cases like this. Why do you think the US (nukes aside) has the most powerful army in the world?

        I’m going to help you out and list off some military vocabulary for you to look up in reference to the PRC (try not to cry afterwards, when the image that the army presents of its abilities isn’t the statistical or factual truth of it):

        Mechanized warfare (for further reading see: Sichuan Earthquake Response)

        Fourth Generation Fighter Aircraft (Yeah, if you’re a fan of their air force, this might hurt a bit)

        Amphibious Assault (Yeah…)

        Here I’ll even give you a synopsis if you’re too lazy:
        Have you even seen the actual equipment that the Taiwanese army uses? The Chinese army’s equipment is ridiculously outdated. Taiwan has been supplied for ages by Western countries and doesn’t have its head stuck up its ass like China does, so its actually willing to accept superior equipment instead of inventing second rate versions like China does. IF the PRC stopped pissing off the rest of the world, and swallowed its rather shallow pride and made weapons purchases deals and completely upgraded the entirety of its army to modern standards(you know how many tens of years that would take?), then yes they would win. But that ISN’T what they have chosen to do.

        A variety of factors decide your army’s power. How do you think Israel keeps beating back MULTIPLE Middle Eastern countries? They’re always outnumbered. Seriously, check the nationalism at the door if you’re going to try to debate warfare with me. I don’t even personally like Israel, but I acknowledge their army’s effectiveness.

        And you know what? I guess I can think of a single reason why the PRC may win in an invasion, if they were to attack Taiwan, I don’t know if they would have enough ammunition to kill every single invader, they might run out after they slaughter over half the forces. And then it would look like some sort of mass genocide…

        I’m actually more of a Terran player myself btw, I like micromanaged combat, too bad no Terrans ever seem to win at Blizzcon…T.T

        Reply
        • Kai

          Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 3:01 am

          You are seriously overestimating the advantage of superior equipment and seriously underestimating the resource and logistical advantage China has over Taiwan. I’m sorry, but as good a fight as Taiwan with its more advanced technology can put up, in the end, China will win, easily.

          This isn’t Starcraft. But if it were, let me remind you that micro only goes so far, and what you’re chest-beating about is essentially advantages in micro. China has a significant macro advantage, so much that in comparison, it dominates the map and it is not just sitting there doing nothing. Taiwan would be overwhelmed. Taiwan’s only hope, short of nuclear deterrant, in an actual military encounter is American intervention. I’m sorry but I don’t think there’s much military intelligence suggesting otherwise…but you’re welcome to link me to them.

          Reply
          • capt. nullz whatever

            Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 9:30 am

            This is interesting but I thought China has 4.5 gen aircraft (and is developing “5th gen”–although not really comparable to f-22) versus 4th gen aircraft such as the f-16 (the backbone of Tawain’s airforce).

            So I was under the impression that when talking about top-of-the-line equipment the two sides are on-par. Not so sure about amphibious assult forces but when I last read about this, is that China lack the amphibous assult forces. But does it matter? Especially when you can rain down missile on Taiwain? And of course conversely Tawain and rain down missiles on the mainland, too.

            Disclaimer: I’m not really for either side. I’m against waring of any kind. I do feel that mainland should just leave Taiwain the fuck alone, as long as the mainland cannot guarantee political freedoms for the Taiwanese, whom are all currently “free.” (In the common understood meaning of being politically free.) I also do think that there is no need for China to have immediately the so called political freedom, due to various unique circumstances regarding China (I know shit is fucked. But people need to have the freedom to have a decent living first.). I hope things will change over time and the people can have a choice, instead of being controlled by a single party political system–with all the isms associated with such a system.

            Peace.
        • FYIADarkTemplar

          Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 12:23 pm

          It’s kind of funny you didn’t read my post ^^

          Hmmm what part of internal infiltration, media control, and infrastucture sabotage did you not understand? As well as defacto control of crucial politicians and re-educational reforms.

          It must be fun to talk about how many big guns a country has. Its too bad they wont even get a chance to use them. Don’t cry FYIA, we understand your intellectual decapacity.

          Reply
16. GermanChinese

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 1:07 am

    China will rule the world. Since Huang Di, it’s heavens decision.
    The barbarians will accept it or go down.

    Reply
    • ST

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 1:19 am

      America will rule the world. It is God’s decision.
      The barbarians will accept it or go down.

      Christianity will rule the world. It is God’s decision.
      The barbarians will accept it or go down.

      Islam will rule the world. It is God’s decision.
      The barbarians will accept it or go down.

      Germany will rule the world. It is destiny’s decision.
      The barbarians will accept it or go down.

      Rome will rule the world. It is the god’s decision.
      The barbarians will accept it or go down.

      etc, etc, etc. All wrong. All horrible. You are no less.

      Reply
    • Wan

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:37 am

      China, China über alles, Über alles in der Welt, Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze Brüderlich zusammenhält…

      Reply
17. ST

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 1:14 am

    All this talk of motherland… so sad, so small minded. It’s a great concept for the angry and the disaffected and the powerful use it like a tool to keep the sheep in line. Look at all of the boasting and threats that is brings out from so many of you, pathetic. If you love your motherland so much perhaps it is time to grow into an adult and move out of mother’s house to live on your own.

    Reply
18. Mike Lee

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 3:01 am

    How can a such miserable poetry can be so popular?
    Are they no Chinese poets right now?

    Reply
    • The Lizard King

      Tuesday, September 29, 2009 at 3:46 am

      THANK YOU!

      its like a retarded 5th grader wrote it. wtf?
      laaaaaaaaaaaaame

      Reply
19. fozzwaldus

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:08 am

    I love reading the translated comments from the original articles. It’s fascinating to read people’s Chinese thoughts when they’re not thinking of how they’ll be viewed by foreigners.

    Conversely the English comments that follow bore me senseless, the usual mix of trolls/xenophobes/morons…

    Reply
    • fozzwaldus

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:09 am

      sorry, “Chinese people’s thoughts”

      Reply
20. capt. nullz whatever

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 9:32 am

    Marry me S!

    Make my dream come true!

    DREAM!

    Reply
21. Rick in China

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 10:00 am

    So many pseudo-intellectual grade-school arguments up in this post I can’t even figure out where to break in and stir it up without investing more time than it’s worth.

    Reply
22. dave

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 11:01 am

    The term “Motherland” is so 1950′s communist.

    Reply
23. pho king4

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 11:29 am

    The writer of this poem would’ve received more public recognition in the beginning if he or she slept with the right person.

    Based on what I’m hearing from people here on the mainland, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that TW should just be nuked. I personally think a lot of it is just jealousy. Although TW is basically a puppet of the US but technically a part of China, the quality of peoples’ lives on the mainland can’t compare to the quality of life of people on the island. Most mainland people don’t know how to interpret that difference. If you gave any mainland chinese college kid a free ride to study or work in TW, he or she would be the first person to get on that plane. Chinese people are just pragmatic.

    Reply
24. Yin

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Sympathizing with the underdog is part of the human condition, but I wonder how much Taiwan’s resistance to the Greater China concept (one country, two systems, etc.) is based on a superiority complex. Somehow I get the feeling that if China was the most badass country around, Taiwanese would be all over the “oh yeah, we’re totally Chinese, hail to the motherland” thing. Call me cynical, but that’s the impression Taiwanese attitudes give me. It’s not about courage; it’s about sticking it to the poor peasants next doors when they can’t do shit about it. If the DPP had real guts, they wouldn’t have backed down on that independence declaration when Bush told them to.

    Reply
    • C&N

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:47 pm

      yep. agree. just look at the honkeys after china started propping up their economy

      Reply
25. DUKE FLEED

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    so many years of propaganda starting from school have produce their effects in the mindset of every person in China. In most cases someone would argue it is just healthy patriotism, but it is not at all. The first warning came last year during the so called Tibet uprising when an astute propaganda machine and made people believe that it was organized by some evil separatist forces belonging to other countries. The entire focus of the debate shifted easily from human and religious rights to anti-china western media and separatist forces. And the people here bought it, as they prefer a beautiful lie rather than the ugly truth. By the way, there is no such a pursue for truth in he whole chinese “so called” culture/literature/history. History books are sistematically rewritten when a new “dynasty” appears on the stage. The real danger of developing China has not shown yet.

    Reply
    • C&N

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 4:42 pm

      hey i was brought up overseas and have had almost no exposure to china other than regular trips in recent years. similar to my chinese friends we feel china has been unjustly treated in most western media.

      look at james miles transcript (cnn reporter) on the initial tibetan riots – the only western reporter in lhasa at the time. how differently it reads to what is portrayed in newspapers in australia, usa and europe. he reports the chinese as the victims, not the maurading blood thirsty tibetan gangs. human rights? citizens in a civilized society deserve to be protected and to live in peace. that is the underlying basis for any stable society.

      similar to the azerbaijan/russia incident, the media takes a political side playing on people’s natural prejudices. funnny how the whole incident quickly died out post the un enquires. its immoral the crap the so called free media write to sell a paper and scary how many and how quickly people have jumped on the band wagon. maybe you should be the one to reassess your so called facts.

      Reply
    • Billy joel

      Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 2:01 am

      Politics, Politics, Politics….
      instead of a huge paragraph of rabbling, these three words make more sense than you.

      Reply
26. Nikhilesh

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Some chinese nutters here like “Ybin” thinks that they (chinese) could divide india into 20 different states????
    it seems so funny and unrerealistic. Even british couldn’t make more than 2 parts of indian empire how could chinese make 20 different parts??? Is China more superior than British?????? LOL From all my experience i can conclude than one should not trust chinese and chinese government. Chinese are killers.
    india is a land of Lord buddha, where we have freedom. and China is a largest prison ever built… LOL

    {My QQ 546960877}

    Reply
    • whichone

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 6:12 pm

      If you took the time in between LOLs to actually read the two ‘ybin’ posts, you’d realize that it’s two different people and the second one who suggested breaking India is most likely not Chinese (or at least, not from a Chinese point of view).

      but hey what the hell, as long as it’s remotely related to Chinese, just post some ignorant shit and LOL ???? LOL ?????

      Reply
    • ybin

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 6:15 pm

      Smart boy, re-read what was posted before you post your ranting.

      Reply
    • Abdul

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 6:40 pm

      Hahahahaha.. You gotta love Indians for bringing humour into everything.

      If you ever visit these Indian forums, and the only thing they talk about is how great their starving, poverty driven country is and how they will be the next superpower. This is despite the fact they cant even feed their population or even maintain the status as a regional power.

      Reply
      • whichone

        Thursday, September 24, 2009 at 11:59 am

        This is probably what the readers from western countries feel when they read Chinese forums. Most people don’t realize that not all Indians or Chinese forums are filled with nationalist rhetoric, many also have honest, substantial criticisms of their country.

        China started economic reform roughly ten years before India. That is probably the single most important reason why the economy of India lags behind China, not the Indian mentality.

        Nikhilesh sounds like an idiot, and probably an Indian, but that says more about internet than Indians in general.

        Reply
        • sukisungla

          Saturday, October 17, 2009 at 11:23 am

          whichone,
          don’t insult the indians and peoples u don’t have the right

          Reply
    • sukisungla

      Saturday, October 17, 2009 at 11:29 am

      n u nikklesh please don’t insult

      Reply
27. ybin

    Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    If one thinks that the thorny Taiwan issue is between Taiwan and mainland China, one is not very savvy in international politics. It never is about Taiwan. Likewise, it is never about Tibet. It is about China and the Western world (mainly the USA).

    First of all, historically, the Taiwan issue is a direct consequence of America sending its fleet into the South China sea, preventing Mao Zedong’s takeover of Taiwan. Regardless of how you argue over the intention of this intervention, the result of this American intervention is that we now have this hot potato called the Taiwan issue.

    Likewise for Tibet, the only reason Dalai Lama is able to pursue his political agenda overseas, charming hollywood celebrities and pols in Washington, is that CIA of the USA supported the Tibetan uprising in the early part of the uprising, sewing the seed of conflict and rivalry. Once again, the Tibetan issue is a direct result of America’s intervention.

    This now brings to my main argument – we are not holding onto Taiwan because we love it or because we feel connected with the residents in that island – we do not. If Taiwan were now struck by some colossal natural disaster and were completely destroyed, I (and most of us)would not cry my eyes out.

    Likewise for Tibet.

    Why do you still want Taiwan (and Tibet) to remain part of China, you ask?

    The answer is simple – if Taiwan (and much much less likely, Tibet) were allowed to be independent, it will almost certainly become a US puppet regime. Americans will send their troops there.

    And American troops in Taiwan which is geographically proximate to mainland? That would be furthering America’s encirclement policy towards China. That is a definite no for us.

    So my dear friends. If you truly care about the independent cause of Taiwan (you do, right?), stop US hegemony. Get US troops back to the USA. Stop meddling with other countries.

    When that happens, I would not hesitate in supporting an independent Taiwan or Tibet.

    Reply
    • whichone

      Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 7:36 pm

      As long as we are cutting away the popular rhetorical BS, here is my two cents. I realize I may be in the minority here, but as a Chinese person, I don’t really feel any cultural or historical connection Tibet (could just be my ignorance). I find it disingenuous and laughable when the CCP mouthpiece speak of Tibet as an inseparable part of Chinese history. But that doesn’t change the fact that Tibet is part of China now, and is not going anywhere.

      The CCP leadership at the time had enough strategic foresight to takeover many of the regions that were (marginally) under the influence of former Qing dynasty before the western powers could react. That’s all there is to it! What nation in the world didn’t gain their territories from conquest? Now, it’s part of China, and absent catastrophic failure of government, the free Tibet issue movement remain a political tool to poke China in the eye, and nothing more.

      As for the human rights issues, I know they have been terrible, are absolute paramount and is something the CCP must take steps to improve. That said, changes aren’t going to come from western chastisement and the holier-than-thou attitudes. I feel that most Chinese people (me included) have a pretty large chip on the shoulder from the century of Chinese weakness and humiliation at the hands of western powers, and any criticism from the west now are view another form of (rather hypocritical) intrusion from the west with the aim to weaken China. There does seem to be a cognitive dissonance in the west who on the one hand support dictatorial regimes on the one hand for oil and mineral rights while criticizing China to feel good about itself. As to how much of this is the truth and how much the result of Chinese propaganda, I am not smart enough to decide, except to say that I do feel certain amount of resentment from the finger pointing, while understanding that some of them are valid issues.

      CCP leadership have always been conservative old men for whom stability is important above all else. Soviet Union’s perestroika policies remain an important example to the perils of blindly and suddenly embracing the promises of the west (i.e. Reagan administration). The CCP today have arguably come a long way since the worst days of Mao’s regime and more willing to address many issues that still plague its citizens. But many more steps to gradual steps toward democracy and transparency have come from economic cooperation with the west than any western finger pointing.

      Taiwan is an entirely different, I am all for unification but am glad that it didn’t happen right after the Chinese civil war. Many important art and social/religious cultural traditions were wiped out during the disastrous cultural revolution and many were thankfully preserved by Taiwan. But I do feel a sense of kinship with the people there even if they are not returned.

      This is pretty long winded, and most likely wouldn’t change anyone’s opinion whatsoever but oh well.

      If there are glaring mistakes or total ignorance I welcome any suggestions/reading materials that will ‘enlighten’ me.

      Reply
      • whichone

        Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 7:42 pm

        I typed all that without proof reading and realized there are some pretty horrendous grammatical errors, apologies.

        Reply
      • Lewceein

        Friday, September 25, 2009 at 11:28 am

        sounds pretty reasonable

        Reply
      • Fike2308

        Saturday, September 26, 2009 at 5:16 pm

        Nice essay whichone…very well written :)

        You raised some interesting points, bravo!

        Reply
28. Michael Turton

    Friday, September 25, 2009 at 8:31 am

    Do we not do our history around here? The US position on Taiwan is quite clear: the status of Taiwan is undetermined. It’s been that way for 60 years. That is also true of most of the major powers; Japan had a low ranking diplomat remind Taiwan of that just this year. The UN’s position is more nuanced, since the administrative apparatus is pro-China but the powerful member states all subscribe to the position that Taiwan’s status is undetermined. When Ban Ki-moon rejected Chen Shui-bian’s UN letter on the grounds that Taiwan was part of China, the US told him that the US and other powers do not agree with that position and do not support it.

    Reply
    • John Shlurton

      Friday, September 25, 2009 at 5:53 pm

      http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GA06Ad05.html

      Secretary of State Colin Powell and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, on various occasions, more explicitly endorsed the position that Taiwan is part of China; they showed more understanding of unification as China’s national aspiration, and expressed limitations of the US commitment to defend Taiwan, departing from the traditional strategic ambiguity on these issues.

      Reply
      • mocci

        Monday, October 5, 2009 at 6:07 pm

        The fact that Taiwan belongs to Chinese people won’t be changed by whatsoever you stupid collin powell said. Taiwan’s status should be decided by the will of 1.3 billion Chinese people, not you Americans. would you just fuck off and leave us alone?

        Reply
29. the great yellow master race

    Friday, September 25, 2009 at 8:49 am

    The world today seems absolutely crackers,
    With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
    There’s fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
    It’s depressing and it’s senseless, and that’s why…
    I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    They only come up to your knees,
    Yet they’re always friendly, and they’re ready to please.

    I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    There’s nine hundred million of them in the world today.
    You’d better learn to like them; that’s what I say.

    I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    They come from a long way overseas,
    But they’re cute and they’re cuddly, and they’re ready to please.

    I like Chinese food.
    The waiters never are rude.
    Think of the many things they’ve done to impress.
    There’s Maoism, Taoism, I Ching, and Chess.

    So I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    I like their tiny little trees,
    Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

    I like Chinese thought,
    The wisdom that Confucious taught.
    If Darwin is anything to shout about,
    The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.

    So, I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    They only come up to your knees,
    Yet they’re wise and they’re witty, and they’re ready to please.

    All together.

    Wo ai zhongguo ren.
    Wo ai zhongguo ren.
    Wo ai zhongguo ren.
    Ni hao ma; ni hao ma; ni hao ma; zaijien!

    I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    Their food is guaranteed to please,
    A fourteen, a seven, a nine, and lychees.

    I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    I like their tiny little trees,
    Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

    I like Chinese.
    I like Chinese.
    They only come up to your knees…

    Reply
    • FYIADarkTemplar

      Tuesday, September 29, 2009 at 12:40 pm

      You have too much time on your hands ^^

      Reply
      • the great yellow master race

        Tuesday, September 29, 2009 at 9:06 pm

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QoA44c23A

        Reply
30. Jason

    Friday, September 25, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    Some of the Taiwan debate was in Chinese so I had to use Google translator to read it. It worked fine for the first two comments. On the third one, though, my internet stopped working and I had to use a proxy.

    So, basically, the Chinese government just shut down my internet because I was reading opinions of Taiwan that they did not want me to read. And yet, Chinese people still love China. Mind-boggling.

    Reply
    • the great yellow master race

      Friday, September 25, 2009 at 5:15 pm

      you see. we the great yellow race are superior to you inferior barbaric internet!

      Reply
    • whichone

      Sunday, September 27, 2009 at 9:15 pm

      So…the government blocked the English translation on Google but not the Chinese original?

      Are you currently living/working in China but can’t read any Chinese?

      Reply
31. Jordan

    Sunday, September 27, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    The debate over Taiwan and PRC is truly pointless… What really matter is what both governments will agree to do in the future.

    Reply
32. Taiwan Chinese are Brainwashed (aka RichWhiteMale & PRC Fenqing)

    Thursday, October 1, 2009 at 12:35 am

    Stupid little Taiwan people

    You guys have NOTHING to argue.

    Every Chinese here grew up OVERSEAS in a Western nation. How can we be “brainwashed” by CPC???

    Sounds like like a lousy excuse from a shameless group of american dicksuckers

    Reply
    • Fike2308

      Sunday, October 4, 2009 at 10:31 pm

      “Every Chinese here grew up OVERSEAS in a Western nation.”

      Sounds like an assumption to me.

      Reply
    • sukisungla

      Saturday, October 17, 2009 at 10:52 am

      even you are shameless and don’t insult everyone

      Reply
    • sukisungla

      Saturday, October 17, 2009 at 10:53 am

      don’t over act

      Reply