Wife vs. House: Chinese Men Discuss What They Can Afford

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From NetEase:

A post-80s generation’s quandary: Should I support a wife or a house?

I was born in ’83, in a mid-level city. I graduated from college in ’06 and returned to work in my hometown. I’d been together with my girlfriend since freshman year of high school, we broke up January of this year. My family circumstances are typical. My high school and college years were the time that we had the greatest financial difficulties. My parents were both unemployed without income. My tuition fees were borrowed from relatives, and my parents worked odd jobs to support my living expenses.

In my senior year of college my parents’ former employer [a government owned enterprise] declared bankruptcy, bought them health insurance and pension, and paid RMB 20,000 in compensation. That was just enough to pay back the four years’ tuition I had borrowed. Now, my family has no debt, my parents’ income is around RMB 2000 per month, and have health insurance.

My job situation: In my senior year I interned for a software company in my hometown (I found the job myself), Delphi Development, and stayed after graduation. Right now my salary is around RMB 1300 (I’m not sure exactly how much). I travel for work over 200 days a year. Normally, I am pretty frugal so I basically don’t use much of my salary. Plus year-end-bonuses and others, I can save around RMB 20,000 a year.

Let’s talk about my ex-girlfriend situation: When we broke up in January we were almost together for 9 years. 9 years of a relationship isn’t easy, but she never planned to marry me, mainly because she considers my family poor. Her father is a middle school teacher, is very respected at the school, and should have an annual income of more than RMB 40,000. Her mother is a retired government official, and has a high pension income, so overall her family situation and my family situation were like heaven and hell.

In fact, I wanted to break up in ’06, perhaps being away by myself all the time has made me unhappy, and in communicating with my ex, I understood that her idea was that we don’t have to have an apartment (her parents’ home is 150 sq meters), but I have to have at least RMB 100,000 to marry her. Moreover, when we are together, she pretty much doesn’t need to spend any [of her] money. Since the beginning of high school, it has basically been like this. so I have to spend a lot of money every year being with her. When I was in college I worked part time, since money from home wasn’t enough. Her only hobby is to make herself beautiful, or simply put: shopping.

The shopping expenses during university I won’t mention, but between ’07 till when we broke up, New Year’s, Chinese New Year, May 1st, and Oct 1st were all spent in the provincial capital, where shopping was the 1st priority. The spending I kept track of totals more than RMB 12,000, excluding the random everyday expenses. Thinking about this going on long term, I do not have the ability to marry her, and am instead wasting her time (she’s a few months older than me). Since ’07, I have had this idea of being independent, so we split.

[The original poster calculates here that buying an average apartment of around 90 sq meters in his hometown costs about RMB 220,000, and that he should be able to pay it off within 10 years]

The choice between an apartment and a wife:

1. Marriage: nowadays women are all very practical. The level of emotional involvement is unimportant, she just can’t suffer being with you. If she is better off than you financially, she wouldn’t want you. Even if she didn’t care about your poor circumstances, you yourself probably wouldn’t be able to accept it either. The girls who have poor financial circumstances are all looking above, and basically look down upon us poor people. Those who are truly worse off then me, I imagine if the two of us were to marry and have kids, just supporting everyday life is going to drain me, unless there was some big change to our income. Otherwise, I imagine our entire lives will be spent in monotony, it’s impossible to turn the situation around. Worse, it’s even possible to be abandoned by the wife, kicking you away when she finds a bigger and better tree to hug.

2. Buy apartment and not marry: like I said before, in ten years, or before I turn 35 I will have an apartment that belongs to me (secret: my parents’ place could count as mine too, city center, 100 sq meters, but not in a residential community). When I reach 35 I should be unladen and could consider buying a car.

Not marrying seems impossible to many people, perhaps I’m not like other people, I can live by myself my entire life. If you’re not like me, planning to be a perpetual bachelor, then this post may be pointless for you. If you’re in a big city or a city with a larger real estate bubble, then it’s hard for you to even walk my path. A friendly warning to brothers who want to remain single, even without a wife and children we still need to be responsible. Don’t think that life will be easy because of this decision. On the contrary, we have even more pressure. Think about the reason we have for not marrying: to give ourselves and our parents better lives. If you end up not taking good care of your parents and not gaining anything yourself, then it’s really not worth it. Perhaps we didn’t really have a choice, but if we decided, then we need to stick with it. And those brothers who plan to marry, you chose to take on more responsibilities than me, I can only salute you.

In fact, I already have pressure from all sides. After all in the Chinese view of society, building a family is the right thing to do, and not doing so is hard for others to accept. This past Chinese New Year was the most painful in my life. Relatives, friends who came home from other provinces and old classmates didn’t understand my choice and found it hard to accept. Today’s society gives us even more pressure, and we cannot choose to escape [responsibility] nor can we run our heads into the wall, so we can only choose a the narrow path that both society and we ourselves can accept.

Lastly, I want to commiserate the death of my romance with a grave heart, and face my long single life with enthusiasm. My road will become better as I walk.

网易火星网友:

Brother has spoken truth.

wangbin9992:

The truth of reality.

广东广州网友:

The true circumstances of life today.

欧洲网友:

Deeply feel the same, nothing else to say. Just the feelings of someone in the same position.

网易火星网友:

True! Be a woman in the next life! Women are like that, always looking up [for someone better].

上树的猪:

Sigh..you’re better off than me…my second-tier city is much more expensive than yours…the average price is around 4k [per square meter]…I make around 3-4k..but it’s not an iron rice bowl [a stable job], so I don’t dare to buy an apartment.

陕西西安网友:

Touches my heart~deeply feel the same! Being unable to let your parents live in comfort yet wanting to still get married is the worst failure of filial piety, so we definitely must not have parents who are not rich pick up the tab for our marriage and must rely on ourselves! If one must be single, then be single, it is not that big of a deal!

sz30977402:

Making it on your own truly is really difficult. I feel your pain.

重庆网友:

Hahahaha, after laughing [I will] jump off the building!!!!!

用訫良苦:

Ding! Looks like another good man!

欧洲网友:

Actually after you marry, it’s faster for two people to save money!

Poll

If you were a man, would you rather get married or buy a house?

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  1. Moron LZ, there are plenty of 恐龙 out who can’t find anyone to marry them. Their parents bought them a house so that any potential husband wouldn’t have to. I can name 5 girls off the top of my head who are single with real property.

    • hmmmmm, care to share who the 恐龙 are??? maybe other men will be glad to help them out. :) hahahaha

      • I forgot to mention one thing: they are also short.

        Just like Randy Newman, Chinese and I don’t like no short people. Especially don’t want no short wife. Don’t want no short people ’round me. Short people are for working in the factories. Tall people are for the office. Short people 土; tall people 精.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_People

        Short people got no reason
        Short people got no reason
        Short people got no reason
        To live

        They got little hands
        Little eyes
        They walk around
        Tellin’ great big lies
        They got little noses
        And tiny little teeth
        They wear platform shoes
        On their nasty little feet

        Well, I don’t want no short people
        Don’t want no short people
        Don’t want no short people
        `Round here

        Short people are just the same
        As you and I
        (A fool such as I)
        All men are brothers
        Until the day they die
        (It’s a wonderful world)

        Short people got nobody
        Short people got nobody
        Short people got nobody
        To love

        They got little baby legs
        That stand so low
        You got to pick em up
        Just to say hello
        They got little cars
        That go beep, beep, beep
        They got little voices
        Goin’ peep, peep, peep
        They got grubby little fingers
        And dirty little minds
        They’re gonna get you every time
        Well, I don’t want no short people
        Don’t want no short people
        Don’t want no short people
        ‘Round here

        • As great as a composer Newman is, this is the man who proclaims he “loves LA”, that wretched hive of scum and villainy. If he loves superficiality, urban sprawl, and the land where dreams are shattered on a daily basis, he probably likes tall people/hates short people.

          Also, China once built a freakin long wall once to keep out gigantic tall people, one of whom would eventually play in the NBA. China is only a place of short people in your stereotypes.

          • Hey moron, I was commenting on Chinese minimum height requirements in employment and discrimination against short people within Chinese culture. That’s not even close to stereotyping all Chinese as short people. You’ve got some shitty reading comprehension.

  2. I bought a house, only because I was going to blow the money on a Porsche and my girlfriend at the time (now wife) decided it would be better to buy a rabbit hutch in the sky.

    Should have bought the Porsche.

  3. “Right now my salary is around RMB 1300 (I’m not sure exactly how much)”

    - So this monkey doesn’t even know what his salary is? No wonder he’s having financial issues!

    “Plus year-end-bonuses and others, I can save around RMB 20,000 a year.”

    - You can save more than your total accumulated basic salary each year? Impressive. Either software companies pay fat bonuses to junior developers these days, or you’re surely making a lot through “others”.

    • Perhaps he lives at home and pays no rent/utils. Many companies pay for employees’ lunch. My company also pays our developers (all developers, junior/senior) 13 months, plus project bonuses, so I’d imagine (junior/senior/whatever, since it’s based on monthly salary it scales accordingly) most employees will end up getting 14-15 months salary each year, plus if they eat cheaper than their lunch subsidy they can save a few rmb at lunch. If this kid doesn’t do anything outside of work, eat, sleep, shit, and anything that’s free or extremely low cost he can definitely save that much or around that much on that salary. Keep in mind he says he travels 200 days a year on business, so through that, can also “save” some money on expected expenses they are willing to pay out via China’s ridiculous receipting system (ie restaurant receipt to cover ).

      But…what the ****, in Chengdu, we pay junior software devs a lot more than that. Delphi?… …. wtf.

      That being said, buddy is clearly sincere in his interests and it’s unfortunate that it’s confusing to him – but it’s confusing because most *bitches* in China think exactly as he has described his ex-girlfriend’s situation/words to him. *yawn*, live and learn..live and learn..feel a little bit sad (not really, just a nicety) for the local boys who are struggling to grab up some materialism in order to peacock for a girl who likely doesn’t deserve the attention.

    • many times, bonus in China are equal or greater than their base salary. This scheme came about in the 80′s when salary was restricted by the gov’t but bonus isn’t. So companies use bonuses to get and retain talents.

  4. wait! you say relationships are just means to get money? just like everything else in china?

    I AM SHOCKED!!
    shocked and appalled.

  5. 220,000rmb for a 90 m2 flat? Where the hell is his ‘hometown’? That’s less than 2500 rmb/m2. That can’t even be a city, that’s gotta be a township or village.

    Stuff doesn’t add up. Why is he happy that his parents lost their pensions and life insurance? And for a measly 20,000rmb settlement?

    Software developers should be able to count better.

  6. @12meeeeeee,

    It’s too true!

    A message for Chinese men: STOP worrying about money and MAN UP! Be honest to your girl, LISTEN to her (and not always your mommy) and finally, don’t abuse her!

    And stop worrying about money! Maybe worry about her instead?

    And they wonder why the Chinese women love waiguoren… hmmm…

    • A message to you: STOP thinking you’re special because you’re a whitey with money. Douchebag.

      • Stop think you are inferior because you have less money. The problem of Chinese men is they look down on themselves and presume all Chinese girls like money so that they can blame the girls for their own failure. Irresponsible man is not even worthy of pity.

      • Oops! Struck a nerve there, did I? ;)

        I’m not one who thinks I’m special – this is the whole point! If [the men in question] were to just worry about being nice guys, instead of being rich, many of their problems would vanish, and be replaced with young women who actually respected them…

        “Douchebag.” Nice touch, really mature, ahahhaha… were you the original author? ;)

  7. Having money and being able to support your family/girl is part of being responsible in the Asian culture. It’s not quite like the West where a lot of people spend almost their entire paycheck and live off of credit.

    • Soon to be the Chinese lifestyle.

      What you said would have been uttered by ‘western’ people 40 years ago.

      • Funny things is most of my western male friends are quite responsible for family and well aware of their role and responsibility in society and at home. You’re brainwashed by the propaganda. There are such kind of people in China as well, some even worth, but that’s not majority.

  8. an entire new revolution is needed in China: a spiritual/religious one that can make life of these souls more meaningful

    • Yeah, I agree with you Duke but the CCP will just suppress it like they did with Falun Gong…..the CCP is going to do everything it can to prevent a spiritual/religious revolution from happening.

      Check out the “Nine Commentaries on the CCP” video series on youtube sometime.

  9. while I don’t see religion being any type of answer (American church services are so often about face and not much more than a fashion show) I agree that the direction things have headed here in the past 10 years is distressing and depressing. I left America because of the ugliness of conspicuous consumption, sad to see that it’s wholly infected here as well.

  10. Make sure you do her good before u leave!!

  11. Poor guy, blood(money) sucking women are the worst. He’s on the right track though. Once he has a house and car and good savings piled up, he can entertain the thought of marriage. His family is still adhering to an old pattern of thinking where marriage comes before these things, I guess.

  12. Who needs women anyway? We brothers should come together and be just as happy if not happier. Brotherly love is just as delicious and orgasmic minus the headaches and PMS! Take me! Now!

    • With the huge disparity between the number of women and men in China, a lot more men will have to start thinking like this.

      • Not really that huge. The real effect is only felt on the poorest man. Migrant workers or rural farmers. Every urban dweller should have no problem finding a wife, except if he is a total recluse. There is plenty of village girls trying to “marrying up”.

      • So men without a wife or gf will just start to automatically consider the male anus?!!! What a stupid thing to say. Is everyone an animal?

  13. I think your dilemma is the same as with most people nowadays. You have women and men who are just money hungry; they’d be with you for money not love. There are, however, good women and men out there who will love and weather the good and bad times with you. These are harder to find. To answer your question, if you haven’t found that special one, your soulmate, then you should buy a house because you don’t want to be paying for your house when you are in your 70s. I don’t know what the mortgage term is in China but in the U.S., it’s usually 30 years. Good luck!

  14. bros before hoes ^^

  15. exactly man. Fuck a bitch & fuck a ho.

    Who needs them anyway except to bust a nut?

    More power to this guy I don’t plan to marry either. I can do pretty much whatever the hell I want right now with no strings attached.

  16. Fuck that golddigger. I don’t why this guy was a big enough pussy to deal with her bullshit in the first place. Hardworkers like this guy don’t deserves bitches like that. Take the house.

    Ho’s down, G’s up

  17. If either one is looking for money from the other the marriage is wrong. They should look for a living to satisfy the couple’s desired livres.

  18. Brother, if you can buy a 90m^2 house with only 220K RMB, I would say buy two houses quickly since three years later you can sell one of them for 440K and get the second one for free!

  19. A guy in his mid 20s should be enjoying life, and not financing shopping expeditions for gold diggers.

    Plenty time to get married in the future, son.

    Go travelling and sample some non-chinese women. The world is yours!

    • Most guys in their 20s are not enjoying life because they earn crap salaries and are dying to improve their job status. Ever wonder why they say 30 is the new 20?

      When Chinese people ask what age I expect to get married. I tell them maybe in my mid 30s or even in my 40s. They are shocked and think that’s so old!

  20. At first seeing the title of this thread, ‘wife vs house’ I thought it was perhaps china’s version of man vs beast. Where wives compete with houses at various things such as which can store the most objects, which is the better lay, and of course which can kill a man faster.
    But then i discovered it was in fact a math problem. If i don’t know my own salary and have a stupid girlfriend for 9 years an for some reason i mention traveling to work for 200 days divided by the possibility of owning an apartment, should you continue reading his post? God knows.
    Anyway this lead to a lot of man-love in the forums. But what you are all forgetting is men have balls and we will do anything, sacrifice anything for those balls. In the end the balls always win. He will get a new girlfriend, he will forget about his apartment as he’s being sucked off, and he will live a life of destitution. It’s the fate of all men and that’s the way we like it.
    250 out

  21. STOP CENSORING ME JUST BECAUSE I TRY TO PROVIDE A KOREAN POINT OF VIEW

    THIS WHOLE APPROVAL THING SUCKS, IT RUINS EVERYTHING!

    • If you represent Korea’s point of view there must be a lot of idiots with small dicks there.

    • I agree! I think Voltaire didn’t say it best:
      I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
      Well not to the death but you get my point.
      Is this Chinasmack or just China?

    • Korean Dog Eater (aka K-Dawg)

      LEAVE PP ALONE!!!!

    • What’s maybe more worrying is that 3 replys to Pusan’s comment have been deleted. Was it because they were critical of chinasmack? Wants the point of being able to negative vote a comment if chinasmack can pick and choose which peoples opinions are worthy to be read? Where does it end? Personally i think this issue is much larger than wife vs house. Chinasmack is nothing without the people who leave their comments. Can i call upon the mighty Flora to enlighten us about this situation?
      250 out

      • I never saw the 3 allegedly deleted comments responding to PUSAN PLAYA so I can’t speak for them. But given the amount of comments critical of chinaSMACK that have historically NOT been deleted, I wouldn’t automatically assume critical comments are automatically deleted. In fact, I wouldn’t automatically assume anything…chinaSMACK comment moderation is pretty whimsical.

        To answer your rhetorical question, the point of being able to negative vote a comment is likely for the “community” to express their agreement or disagreement with each other’s comments. Everyone’s comment is automatically assumed to be worthy of being read (or at least remaining visible to be read) until they are voted down and hidden. Just because chinaSMACK CAN pick and choose what comments to be read, doesn’t mean the voting mechanism is pointless. If you were here for when the voting was implemented, the basic premise was for the community to manage itself. This doesn’t preclude the site from doing whatever it damn pleases.

        Which is pretty much the bottom line. Every so often, there will be someone (usually a troll) who brings up the whole misguided “freedom of speech” protest, believing they are entitled to certain rights that have absolutely no application on privately owned websites.

        Is chinaSMACK nothing without the people who leave their comments? I doubt it. You’re taking yourselves way too seriously. What portion of chinaSMACK’s traffic do you think commenters make up? 5%? Less? chinaSMACK has sporadically deleted comments but has that led to any less comments being made? Maybe, but maybe not. In fact, plenty argue that chinaSMACK loses more comments and traffic by not moderating the comments section better.

        chinaSMACK has one of the most liberal comment moderation policies amongst not just China blogs but blogs in general. chinaSMACK gives you the privilege to comment anonymously, without registering, and without waiting for approval. In return, it has the privilege of limiting or rescinding the privileges it offers to you whenever it deems it necessary. That includes, as we’ve seen before, having your sock puppets exposed, your comments moderated, your comments deleted, etc. You are owed nothing, just as the website is not owed your visit or patronage.

        If a few trolls get moderated or a few comments are deleted, I personally doubt the website as a whole suffers much. Trolls usually come back with a new name and the commments keep coming in anyway. Worse, the comments are still predominantly ignorant, racist, and hateful. There’s never a shortage of idiots for chinaSMACK to attract given its subject matter, but that’s pretty much the necessary evil it must accept. And I assume it accepted that long ago.

        • Hello Mr. Kai, I’ve been expecting you.

          First i would like to say I have first-hand seen Flora pull down users proverbial pants and expose their confidentials, and so i am a little tentative writing this. However, in the past it seems that was only done to users hiding their identities and to people making threats against to other users, so as i am doing none of those things i hopefully have nothing to worry about.
          i’d also like to apologize to people wanting to read about wife vs house. This is off topic and i’m sorry. Maybe if chinasmack had some kind of forum to discuss these topics i wouldn’t have to waste your time. Something to think about anyway.
          I realise this is a private website, so maybe the ‘freedom of speech’ argument is doomed. But maybe in the interest of fairness Pusan Playas comments are still valid.
          My point is this website’s hope is to give ‘an idea of how some Chinese netizens react, feel, or think’ to a topic, good and bad. But shouldn’t it also give Chinese ‘smackers’ a chance to know how other nationalities react, feel, or think to a topic, good and bad. There are racists, and ignorant people out there, but if given the chance there are also people who deplore and reject those comments. I personally encourage Chinese friends to visit chinasmack, so they can realize not all Englishmen are gentlemen, Rain doesn’t speak on behalf of all Koreans and Jay Chou probably does an opinion about Taiwan. If i can see a translated Chinese racist rant about black people, why can’t they see a foreign racist rant about Chinese people?
          Kai, you yourself wrote an article entitled ‘Foreigners Attacking Chinese Racists Reveal Their Own Racism’. If all those comments were deleted, you’d have nothing to write about and foreigners would still be ignorant of their own racism.
          Anyway, this is about as much space as i will waste. I sincerely hope to see people leaving vitriolic replies to Pusan’s comments in the future (and of course mentioning his tiny, tiny penis).
          250 out.

          • I have an uncontrollable suspicion that you are PUSAN PLAYA astroturfing. That’s how bad the trolling situation is now.

            By the way you know it’s Fauna not Flora right?

          • 250,

            Expecting me? Sounds ominous.

            1. I think you’re mistaking my position. I’m not for moderating or deleting the racist comments of foreignres/non-Chinese/other nationalities. I don’t think Fauna or chinaSMACK is either. In fact, I think the whole concept of showing the dark, ugly sides of Chinese netizens and then letting foreigners predictably show how they’re just as bad is interesting social commentary in of itself.

            2. I don’t think chinaSMACK is actively deleting racist comments by foreigners. I wouldn’t support them doing so either, precisely because it would unbalance and skew the reflection chinaSMACK (albeit imperfectly) provides about our global society and all its hypocritical shamelessness. The reason I don’t think they’re doing so is because the racist comments are a) still around and b) still coming in.

            3. Which leads me to suspect those who are getting moderated have done something or another to get the mods’ attention and ire. As a tangent, I want to personally say that PUSAN PLAYA is so over-the-top, I doubt anyone who has seen a handful of his comments would actually take him seriously. He’s just a clown and, at least to me, so blantly obvious as to render himself mostly harmless. There are other clowns too.

            4. However, my ultimate point is what you’ve already accepted, that there is no freedom of speech or right to speech on a privately-owned website. I wrote about this on CNR before in the past after another one of these episodes where someone mistakenly embarks on a crusade for their “rights”. Fauna or chinaSMACK can moderate whoever and whenever they please. They don’t need a reason. This isn’t a “Is this Chinasmack or China” situation, though your implication that censorship is somehow inherently Chinese is not lost upon me. Given that comment policies and censorship exists on most blogs, Chinese or not, your suggestion was framed as cheap moral blackmail. You’re not the first to use that tactic, nor will you be the last, but you would’ve done better to leave it at Voltaire.

            5. I don’t know why PUSAN PLAYA is being moderated. You can e-mail chinaSMACK if you want to know. HE can e-mail chinaSMACK if HE wants to know. To me, there’s an inherent dishonesty involved when someone seeks public sympathy or seeks to incite public outrage before seeking an explanation first.

            6. While I think chinaSMACK should let people embarrass themselves, I do think a line can be drawn against trolls. Having one’s say and enabling one to pester others are two different things, the latter bordering on spam. I don’t think chinaSMACK can be accused of any double-standard or hypocrisy in controlling trolls, given that they’re not enabling Chinese netizens to troll others either, for obvious reasons as trolling is a repetitive behavior, not a stand-alone comment to be translated.

            In sum, I agree with you that racist comments by foreigners should not be automatically censored, as a matter of principle even as I understand that in reality, racists and hypocrites rarely notice their own racism and hypocrisy. That said, I still defend chinaSMACK’s right to do whatever the hell they please. They’ll necessarily face the consequences of their decisions.

          • sorry my bad. Flora is my boss.
            I am neither from Pusan nor am I a player spelt wrongly.
            Do you really think his pseudonym would be 250?

          • Kai,

            1. I don’t think you’re a moderator or responsible, but for some reason i knew you would reply.
            2. Great we agree.
            3. I also agree.
            4. I agree but i don’t think it was cheap, just a had a nice ring to it….ok it was cheap. Voltaire never said it. Nice plug by the way. Keep that advertising revenue coming i say.
            5. I’ll think about it, but i’m not his lawyer or his mommy….or am i?? I did ask Flora to explain but it turns out she’s my boss so that didn’t help much. Sorry Fauna. You should think about meeting my boss, you could have quite successful comedy double act. I digress.
            6. Where to draw the line?

            I basically want to say if there was a line of chinasmack merchandise, there would be a t-shirt; on the front would say ‘Pusan Playa’ and on the back would say ‘has a tiny penis’. (yours would say ‘Chinasmack’ and a bumper sticker on the back saying ‘my other website’s Kai’s’. Come on Kai, you can take a joke.) Anyway I think this place would be a little less colorful without that dickhead polluting the boards.

            N.B. Kai I know i ride you about your website, but i do visit and it’s really not bad.
            My t-shirt would say ’250′ on the back would say ‘Who?….oh that guy who for some reason risked his integrity and reputation for a racist ignorant piece of crap’. I think it’s quite catchy.
            250 out.

          • Oh crap….what a fool i’ve been.
            Pusan Playa just changed his name to K-Dawg (equally ridiculous) and well just ignore everything i said.
            Now i have to reprint all those damn t-shirts.

          • Except K-Dawg has been around for a while.

            In the thread http://www.chinasmack.com/pictures/unfaithful-fiancee-pregnant-beaten/ K-Dawg answered and insulted him – except that K-Dawg has a Gravatar, the current one does not.

            So either PP has hijacked another users name (unpleasant) or he used a second user to answer one of his own posts (batshit crazy).

            By the way 250 I’ve noticed you posting immediately after PUSAN PLAYA, so I’ve got to ask – are you him also?

      • If my idiotic and vulgar comments keep getting deleted then I’m gonna quit visiting this website and find another website to troll. Don’t cry when that happens and your monthly visits fall by 1 because all the cool people stopped visiting.

  22. Yeah pusan you suck….nobody needs you

  23. If you girl friend only knows about enjoying life (shopping, travels etc) then the decision is obvious regardless of whether you can or cannot afford to keep her.

    A family requires 2 or more to “maintain”, this is the real truth anywhere in the world.

  24. Why get married when it’s expected to have kids? China doesn’t need anymore people. Man, culture and tradition is lame. Who really needs it anyways? People can all live happily as long as there’s a parade every year that displays the country’s weapons and female infantry marching in short skirts and boots. What Chinese person needs tradition and culture when they have the internet where they can access websites to vent their frustrations and criticize the “harmony” in their society?

  25. the redundancy kills me. Can you actually own a home in China or do you just rent it for 70 years making the CCP richer? Can you pass it on to your children? You ask a stupid question – an investment in your future vs. marraige – a home in China is no investment, just a purchase

    • Home ownership: it is a stressful, expensive long-term lease arrangement which you have to decorate before you move in.

    • Yeah, I also heard that you can’t own real estate in China and that is just a 70-year lease…one of several reasons not to buy property in China.

      • I thought that foreigners were allowed to own one apartment provided they have lived in China X amount of years, but now can’t own more than one (perhaps to stop us foreign devils making money)?

        But then laws here are fluid, no-one seems to know whats going on at any given time, even the people who write them.

    • To add to the home leasing discussion. Okay, you have bought this shell of a dwelling in a massive complex. You then have to hope that in the next two years all the wiring works, plumbing actually does what it is supposed to do and not back up, the unit above does not leak….BUYER BEWARE. Then the first few years of joyous “home ownership” …hammering, banging and lifts continually full of building materials. A nightmare if you follow normal sleeping patterns. There is always the prick who want to get a jump on his decorations at 5.00am sunday morning. If you are unlucky, the developer has partially built on public/road land….my experience, three court cases by the complex with the developer pissing off to HK in two instances. Upshop, despite two wins, the street was occupied by about 250 police and the tractors knocked down the front fence and reclaimed part of the front garden for road widening. Mickey Mouse compensation granted by the court never paid. Then another year of dust, noise and a poorly build road which started to pothole in months.
      Why do people put up with this shit? If you have sufficient rmb, buying a unit is the only avenue for a reasonable return. Bank interest/stockmarket…you’re on drugs. Look out the window of you highrise tonite….how many units are unoccupied….lots.

  26. That’s going to tough for many guys in China. They will start to find ways to get married as in importing Thai or Vietnamese brides. Wait until China fully surpass Japan or the US in real gdp per capita or when the domestic consumption takes off.

    • Do you think Thai or Vietnamese women would be willing to marry Chinese men?

      I’ve been to Thailand and China and the average standard of living in China didn’t strike me as better than what I encountered in Thailand.

      Maybe there are a few wealthy Chinese dudes who could get a southeast asian bride but not many.

      Just a thought.

    • Wait a long time for the median real per capita GDP to surpass the USA. If the US economy grew at 2 percent/year supported by population growth and China’s at 10 percent/year it would take 27 years (at 8%/ 36 years) to break even. I would guess reasonably that it would take about 50 to 75 years. But, I wouldn’t bet much either way. Economics forecasting is voodoo.

      Macro economics aside — The birth ratio isn’t that messed up. Rich ugly Chinese men will just have to marry fat ugly Chinese women. As China’s prosperity grows, Chinese will start drinking more alcohol facilitating such relationships. “Mom, I know she’s fat, but she’s got big breasts and a great personality.”

  27. Fuck the po-po, fuck the ho-ho and get yourself some cheddar yo! =D

  28. wow this almost makes me feel bad that I burned through 50k CNY not including housing when I studied abroad last semester. Oh well you live the lifestyle you can afford.

  29. A common situation faced by lots of guys but life forces you to do what you can. What happened to getting by on what you had? What about his parents’ generation and those before – look how tough their lives were. But they still soldiered along and raised families. Problem is China has developed that quickly and the post 80′s generation are expected to accrue all these expensive material possessions to begin with just to start to have a life. But thats immaterial when in twenty years you own a run-down shithole apartment and a crappy second-hand car and you don’t have a family. Eventually you lived your life alone and you die with no offspring. Not a great solution. So my advice to the LZ – either grow some balls and curb your girls spending habits or just forget the 10万 and get her barefoot and pregnant, have a shotgun wedding and go rural or something you can afford for now.

  30. Most of foreigners don’t understand this situation in china.

    As a chinese like this miserable guy, i decide not to get married until i 35 as well. People are getting too much pressure in china and girls are getting very practic because of the twist traditional culture and very poor society welfare system.

    YEAH, you guys think it’s easy and take it as piece of cake cuz you are very well protected by your intact welfare system, so you will never worried about your life when you are getting old. Cuz your govnement will take care shit of you.

    My ex girl friend broke up with me cuz i couldn’t afford a damn house, but i never blame her, cuz i know how people feel insecurity in china, which is not you foreigners can feel about.

    And getting married in china is not just your own business, this would be the business of your entire family, cuz china is value family as the most important stuff in life, parents’ opinion takes big matter. I’m not gonna say this is good or not, but you can never say it’s stupid, cuz you are not gonna have right to judge if you don’t understand the core value of chinese culture is family, not individualism.

    The reason why i writing this is because lots of foreigners have lots of stereotypes about china, like, chinese people listen to their parents is very stupid. girls are very materialist because of they are gold digger.

    Things are not that easy explained, boys.
    The U.S is easy to explain because their history is just more than 200 yrs.
    I’m pretty sure that i know much better western culture than you guys know about chinese’
    So don’t stereotype, don’t jump into conclusion before you do diggings

    • You don’t seem to realize that the roots of American culture are thousands of years old.

      Our Western inheritance can be traced all the way back to Ancient Greece and Ancient Israel even.

      A lot of Chinese people have this incredibly naive assumption that America just sprang into existence about 200 years ago with no background or anything.

      The U.S. Government is actually about 140+ years older than the CCP!

      • Well, the american culture is so so. The european culture is very old. That is true that China has a older civilisation then Europe but its also true that Europe has always been more civilised. We been in Europe for longer time then the chinese been in China! I think it really stinks to see some patriots in China. They are from a developing country that became rich when they opened the door to the west. That is to much to bear for some chinese with low self asteam. GDP in guangdong 1980 (before laowai) 24,521, GDP 2008 with laowais 3,570,000. Figures are in million RMB. Therefore in China at least racism is pointless. Take the laowais out and China will stagnate.

        • Laowai, I see what you mean about they are riding on a wave of FDI and making goods for export. Take that away, and it’s just back to the fish ponds and the rice paddies.

        • The major portion of FDI going into China during the 80s and 90s came from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan; NOT the west.

          • Taking your points into consideration, Hong Kong was (and like it or not) still is backed by the UK. Taiwan was under American and Japanese influence at varying points, and hell Japan was rebuilt by the Americans post WW2. So it is WESTERN FDI, albeit indirect.

          • ALAN,

            You’re reaching. If we interpret “indirect” to your ridiculous extreme, we could argue that the West developed itself on their exploitation of China and Asia. Look, you’re trying way too hard to argue that China owes everything it has to the West. The fact is that China has done much for itself, and the West (including FDI) has played an important, even complementary role. No one credible denies this. Let’s not be an ass and make it sound like the West rescued China from itself out of pure altruistic kindness. As it has always been and as it likely always will be, the roles the West and China/Asia played were spurred by self-interest and the ability to pursue that self-interest. Both sides did what they did out of consideration for what they’d get. For example (and oversimplified), China got foreign investments and technology, while the West gained access to new markets and profits.

          • “Look, you’re trying way too hard to argue that China owes everything it has to the West.” – Kai

            Sounds like a mighty big assumption on the part of Kai.

            In my opinion, HK, Taiwan and Japan are more successful than mainland China, have better healthcare, higher cost of living, etc.

            And a lot of this is due to western intervention and not CCP intervention.

            Who can deny that England built HK from the ground up for around 100 years? Look at it compared to the rest of the cities in China. It’s superior.

          • “Let’s not be an ass and make it sound like the West rescued China from itself out of pure altruistic kindness.” – Kai

            Ummm, Kai, who is making it sound like the West rescued China out of pure altruistic kindness?

            Sure you aren’t just interpreting comments that way?

          • Fike2308,

            Sounds like a mighty big assumption on the part of Kai.

            Maybe, but I’m not the one trying to argue that investment decisions made unilaterally by Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan are “indirect” investments made by the West by virtue of the West’s involvement with Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan’s past.

            In my opinion, HK, Taiwan and Japan are more successful than mainland China, have better healthcare, higher cost of living, etc.

            And a lot of this is due to western intervention and not CCP intervention.

            You mean higher standard of living? I share your opinion that HK, Taiwan, and Japan has developed far earlier and thus more successfully than mainland China has. I don’t share your opinion that this is due to “western intervention” and I have never argued anything about CCP intervention. I don’t agree with your use of the word “intervention” as if these people were doomed had it not been for Westerners coming to “intervene” and save them from themselves. The West came to the “East” in self-interest. The East accepted Western influence or emulated the West in its own self-interests. Do you disagree?

            Who can deny that England built HK from the ground up for around 100 years? Look at it compared to the rest of the cities in China. It’s superior.

            Who is denying that England developed the former fishing village of Hong Kong? No one, Fike2308. Hong Kong does indeed owe much of what it is today to the British, just as the British owe much of their successes in Hong Kong to the Chinese who were too weak and thus had little choice but to tolerate their colonialism and exploitation. Hong Kong’s British roots were largely founded as a staging point for funneling opium into Shanghai, Fike2308.

            The point here isn’t to deny or downplay the positive influences Hong Kong has been left with from its previous British rule, but not to go too far in characterizing them. If you want to be strict, the CCP’s fundamental influencing ideology was Western “intervention” as well. Don’t forget that communism and socialism are Western imports, Fike2308.

            If you want to beat your chest about the benevolence of Western “intervention”, where were the Americans when Chiang Kai Shek’s ROC needed them? Where were the Americans when Nixon established diplomatic ties with CCP mainland China and led to the subsequent ousting of “democratic” Taiwan from the UN and most international political organizations?

            The West didn’t “intervene”, Fike2308. It influenced, even conquered, colonized, and coerced for its self-interests. Is there anything wrong with that? Depends on whether you’re the conquerer or the conquered, influencer or the influenced. Is it understandable? To me, yes. But I’m not going to respect any of you who think or come across as if China owes all or even a majority of its accomplishments to “WESTERN FDI”, would “stagnate” without “laowais”, and would be back to “fish ponds and rice paddies”. Do you want to defend these people, Fike2308?

            Ummm, Kai, who is making it sound like the West rescued China out of pure altruistic kindness?

            Sure you aren’t just interpreting comments that way?

            If I wasn’t interpreting the above referenced comments that way, why would I express myself this way? If I’ve misinterpreted them and they want to reign in some of the implications of their statements, they’re free to come back and say so. Until then, I do find their comments to be both inaccurate and condescending.

          • Hello Kai,

            Not sure if I have time to address all of your points now but I’ll try to hit a few now and maybe a few more later.

            Fike2308,

            1.) “You mean higher standard of living?”

            Yes, in fact, I did mean to type higher standard of living, thanks for the correction.

            2.) “I share your opinion that HK, Taiwan, and Japan has developed far earlier and thus more successfully than mainland China has.”

            Excellent.

            3.) “I don’t share your opinion that this is due to “western intervention” and I have never argued anything about CCP intervention.”

            Why don’t you share my opinion? Hmm, you seem to have a problem with the word ‘intervention’…let’s hope this does not turn into a battle of semantics.

            4.) “I don’t agree with your use of the word “intervention” as if these people were doomed had it not been for Westerners coming to “intervene” and save them from themselves.”

            What would be a better word? Involvement?

            5.) “The West came to the “East” in self-interest. The East accepted Western influence or emulated the West in its own self-interests. Do you disagree?”

            No, I pretty much agree that a lot of it was based on self-interest but I can’t know exactly what the intent was. Yes, many Eastern countries were INFLUENCED by countries like England and America…..but who cares about the motives even? To me, it doesn’t make much of a difference if the motives were totally selfish or selfless….seems like a different argument to me and not one that I’m very interested in.

            BTW, when Chinese people say “The West” (something they say a lot) which countries exactly are they referring to? Can most Chinese people even name every country that qualifies as a Western country? This is still a bit odd to me because where I’m from we usually don’t say “The East”. We say “China” or “India” or “Japan”.

            6.) “Who is denying that England developed the former fishing village of Hong Kong? No one, Fike2308.”

            Well, that’s a relief!

            7.) “Hong Kong does indeed owe much of what it is today to the British, just as the British owe much of their successes in Hong Kong to the Chinese who were too weak and thus had little choice but to tolerate their colonialism and exploitation.”

            Maybe, but I still think HK is better off due to British involvement (I hope you don’t have a problem with the word ‘involvement’) and management than the local Chinese….

            8.) “Hong Kong’s British roots were largely founded as a staging point for funneling opium into Shanghai, Fike2308.”

            Ok….and what does this have to do with anything? Isn’t talking about opium kind of irrelevant?

            9.) “If you want to be strict, the CCP’s fundamental influencing ideology was Western “intervention” as well. Don’t forget that communism and socialism are Western imports, Fike2308.”

            Well, I’m no political scientist but don’t communism and socialism come from The Soviet Union? I wouldn’t consider the Soviet Union a “Western” country the same way I would think of England, Australia and the USA as “Western” countries. I guess I’d say that England and America’s influece (to be more specific…tired of saying “The West”) on places like HK and Japan were more positive than the Soviet Union’s enormous influence on Western China….and the Soviet Union even collapsed which makes me wonder about the future of “Communism” in China.

            10.) “If you want to beat your chest about the benevolence of Western “intervention”, where were the Americans when Chiang Kai Shek’s ROC needed them?”

            I’m not beating my chest :D

            Sorry, don’t know enough about what was going on with the USA when the ROC wanted/needed them….in fact, this also doesn’t seem relevant to the points I was trying to make.

            11.) “Where were the Americans when Nixon established diplomatic ties with CCP mainland China and led to the subsequent ousting of “democratic” Taiwan from the UN and most international political organizations?”

            The Americans were in America…I don’t know much about Nixon and his alleged involvement in the ousting of Taiwan from the UN…the whole Taiwan/China issue is something I’m not too interested in….I just know that Taiwan is cleaner, more developed, has higher salaries, etc. than the mainland and I think this comes from the influence of countries like America and England and Democracy rather than the CCP, Communism or the Soviet Union.

            12.) “The West didn’t “intervene”, Fike2308. It influenced, even conquered, colonized, and coerced for its self-interests.”

            Trifles…

            13.) “But I’m not going to respect any of you who think or come across as if China owes all or even a majority of its accomplishments to “WESTERN FDI”, would “stagnate” without “laowais”, and would be back to “fish ponds and rice paddies”. Do you want to defend these people, Fike2308?”

            No, I don’t want to defend those people actually. I’m pretty much with you on this one. I’m sure “The West” has contributed some to much of China’s current success but I agree that the majority of the credit does belong to China itself.

            Anyway, that’s my two cents for now.

          • Fike2308,

            Why don’t you share my opinion? Hmm, you seem to have a problem with the word ‘intervention’…let’s hope this does not turn into a battle of semantics.

            I don’t think “intervention” will turn into a battle of semantics and is clearly poor word choice.

            What would be a better word? Involvement?

            Yes, that would be a bit better. It is a bit more neutral in suggesting the West benevolently intervened to save the Asians from themselves. “Influence” is probably a better word because the West did influence Asia and Asia was influenced by the West.

            No, I pretty much agree that a lot of it was based on self-interest but I can’t know exactly what the intent was. Yes, many Eastern countries were INFLUENCED by countries like England and America…..but who cares about the motives even? To me, it doesn’t make much of a difference if the motives were totally selfish or selfless….seems like a different argument to me and not one that I’m very interested in.

            People care about the motives and they make a ton of difference because your understanding of the motives affects what words you choose to use. In this case, the use of the word “intervention”. In this case, whether or not the statements you make convey a sense of arrogant condescension.

            BTW, when Chinese people say “The West” (something they say a lot) which countries exactly are they referring to? Can most Chinese people even name every country that qualifies as a Western country? This is still a bit odd to me because where I’m from we usually don’t say “The East”. We say “China” or “India” or “Japan”.

            “The West” as a generalization is not uniquely employed by the Chinese alone. Personally, the West generally represents North America and Western Europe. The exact definition varies amongst individuals but few people, I wager, fail to understand what it means, just as few “Westerners” failed to understand what “The Far East” or “The Orient” means. I assure you that people on all sides, including where “you’re” from, take liberties with generalizations all the time, as often without ill-intent or ignorance and with.

            Well, that’s a relief!

            Shouldn’t be, especially when you made arguments about assumptions against me.

            Maybe, but I still think HK is better off due to British involvement (I hope you don’t have a problem with the word ‘involvement’) and management than the local Chinese….

            I think HK ended up better off in many ways due to British influence and rule compared to places that were influenced by the CCP. We have no way of knowing what the local Chinese would have accomplished absent the British rule. It is a mistake to equate Chinese with CCP, Fike2308.

            In fact, the reason I’m objecting to the word “intervention” is precisely because of the attitude I see behind your statement here. Your statement suggests the British saved the Chinese in Hong Kong from themselves. This is offensive. What makes you think they needed British saving or “intervention” in the first place? This is the attitude of colonialism, one that disrespects the indigenous populations’ right to self-determination. We hear echoes of this very same attitude in CCP justifications for their own neo-colonialism in Xinjiang and Tibet. It was also the same attitude the Japanese arguably learned from the West and espoused in their conquest of Asia during WW2.

            Again, we don’t know what the Chinese could have accomplished on their own without foreign rule. After all, Taiwan was governed into one of the Asian Tigers (as Hong Kong was) by the same “local Chinese”, albeit one that simply subscribed to a different political and economic ideology. Your mistake here is in coming across as if the natives, the local Chinese, by virtue of simply being themselves, would be worse off without foreign “intervention”. That’s not true. Their accomplishments or failures relate not to whether they are Chinese or not, but to what decisions they made.

            Revisiting the issue of motives, your enthusiasm for the notion that the British made HK and the Chinese of HK better should be tempered by historical fact. How long did the British control HK? A long time. Yet, how recent was it that HK’s current political culture came to be? How did it come to be?

            As the world began recognizing mainland CCP-ruled China, beginning with Nixon in the 70s and many other developed countries (like the UK) cozying up to it henceforth, the UK and PRC began discussing the issue of Hong Kong, arriving at the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration. Only then, and with the ratification of the Basic Law in 1990, 7 years before reunification with the mainland, did Hong Kong become the semi-democratic territory it is today. Prior to this, Hong Kong and its denizens were nothing like it was today, largely segregated with discriminatory laws and enforcement against the locals. It was an extension of the British empire that benefited from the cheap labor of the locals and the influx of post-1949 civil war migrants from mainland China, not to mention the many native Chinese corporations that had no choice but to relocate from Shanghai to Hong Kong at the same time.

            To suggest that HK’s success and development is solely or overwhelmingly attributable to British influence (or worse, “intevention”) alone is a disrespect to historical fact, to the local Chinese who made very real and very substantial contributions to HK’s development, whitewashing and justifying the ills the British certainly committed in order to hold them up as shining knights. The British left their mark on Hong Kong. Starting from 1984 or 1990, they did some very good things to ensure stability in, a measure of democracy for, and (perhaps most importantly), their own access to Hong Kong. Be careful of passing British involvement in Hong Kong as if they arrived with clear and noble ambitions of establishing a port of democracy and modernization FOR the Chinese people. This was not the case.

            Ok….and what does this have to do with anything? Isn’t talking about opium kind of irrelevant?

            Not at all. Again, it ties in with your understanding of foreign motives and how you then represent or misrepresent foreign involvement and influence in Asia.

            Well, I’m no political scientist but don’t communism and socialism come from The Soviet Union? I wouldn’t consider the Soviet Union a “Western” country the same way I would think of England, Australia and the USA as “Western” countries.

            Communism traces its roots back to the French while the Germans Marx and Engels are usually presented as its “fathers”. Russia and the Soviet Union has historically always fashioned itself as European. The monarchy and aristocracy of Russia intermarried, interbred, and intertangled itself with European powers far more than China or the Asian nations.

            You’re right that few people consider the Soviet Union as “Western” like England or Australia or the United States. However, I was talking about the ideology of communism which is arguably Western so long as you consider France and Germany “Western”.

            I guess I’d say that England and America’s influece (to be more specific…tired of saying “The West”) on places like HK and Japan were more positive than the Soviet Union’s enormous influence on Western China….and the Soviet Union even collapsed which makes me wonder about the future of “Communism” in China.

            Being more specific is good. To be accurate, we can’t really say the “Soviet Union’s” influence is what brought the CCP to power over mainland China. I personally think it was the appeal of the communist ideology itself that secured widespread support from the peasantry and laborers of China. After all, who doesn’t recognize the appeal of an ideology that says “we deserve more! what is your’s should belong to me too!” upon those who have less. Communism has its appeal, but it is impossible to achieve in practice. This is what the Soviets and the CCP have learned as they migrated away from communist economic ideology to more realisitc capitalist economic ideology.

            It also isn’t accurate to say “America’s” influence on Japan. I’m not saying America hasn’t profoundly influenced Japan, but Japan was not a backwater or poor country pre-America at all. Japan became an industrialized power with the Meiji Restoration when the Japanese stopped tolerating foreign colonialism and decided to emulate the Western powers to first defend itself and then pursue its own geo-political interests (including invading and colonizing much of Asia). As far as modernization and development goes, Japan was already tops in Asia. What Americans brought to Japan was two atomic bombs, unconditional defeat in WW2, and the dismantling of the government responsible for the Japanese colonial empire…replacing it with a pacifist democratic political system (and a bunch of permanent American military bases) to ensure Japan doesn’t get uppity ever again.

            An interesting note here is how sustainable and expanded democracy for Taiwan, Hong Kong, even Japan all came after development, not before, just as it had with the European powers and what would eventually become the United States.

            I’m not beating my chest :D

            Figure of speech.

            Sorry, don’t know enough about what was going on with the USA when the ROC wanted/needed them….in fact, this also doesn’t seem relevant to the points I was trying to make.

            Again, it is relevant to the issue of motives and how foreign influence, involvement, or “intervention” should be portrayed and represented. Remember, I took issue with how you portrayed and represented foreign involvement in China and other Asian territories. My point here is that you (or those other commenters I objected to) wouldn’t and shouldn’t have said the things you (and they) did if they had an appropriate understanding and consideration of the history and geo-political interests surrounding them.

            The Americans were in America…I don’t know much about Nixon and his alleged involvement in the ousting of Taiwan from the UN…the whole Taiwan/China issue is something I’m not too interested in….I just know that Taiwan is cleaner, more developed, has higher salaries, etc. than the mainland and I think this comes from the influence of countries like America and England and Democracy rather than the CCP, Communism or the Soviet Union.

            You should be interested because you can’t appreciate the results (Taiwan/HK having a higher standard of living than mainland China) without understanding how it all came to be. If you don’t understand how things came to be, you’re not really in a credible position to judge or tell others what they should do, especially if you’re telling them they need to become more this or more that.

            We look at Taiwan now and think of how great it is but it didn’t magically become the way it is nor has it always been the way it is. It wasn’t that long ago that Taiwan was a one-party police state much like how mainland China can be at times. Taiwan and Hong Kong both “developed” sooner and enjoy their “superiority” today because they benefited earlier from similar capitalistic policies that mainland CCP-ruled China is benefiting from now. The higher standards of living in Taiwan and Hong Kong have more to do with historical economic policy than British or American influence. Does Hong Kong and Taiwan have British and American influences? Sure, but you’re equating the state of being developed too much with, earlier, race and, now, foreigners and political ideology when you should really be equating it with economic ideology and policy.

            Foreigners have certainly influenced Hong Kong and Taiwan, but for their situation to have panned out the way it did required the people in each to share those political and economic ideologies. Chiang Kai Shek and Chiang Ching Kuo believed in international trade and capitalist economics. It isn’t as if they Americans told them to believe in them and they simply said “okay”. This is why I earlier criticized comments by Laowai & ALAN to be “reaching” and exaggerating foreign influence as if it alone “saved” these people.

            Trifles…

            I disagree, word choice is important.

            No, I don’t want to defend those people actually. I’m pretty much with you on this one. I’m sure “The West” has contributed some to much of China’s current success but I agree that the majority of the credit does belong to China itself.

            Great, I’m glad we agree. Mainland CCP-governed China’s current development owes a lot to foreign nations willing to do business with it. This is undeniable, just as it is undeniable that foreign nations owe a lot to a CCP that is willing to open up and do business with foreign nations. Whatever benefits mainland Chinese are seeing these days, they owe it to themselves for not keeping themselves closed off. The inverse can be said as well of course.

          • 1.) “I don’t think “intervention” will turn into a battle of semantics and is clearly poor word choice.

            What would be a better word? Involvement?

            Yes, that would be a bit better. It is a bit more neutral in suggesting the West benevolently intervened to save the Asians from themselves. “Influence” is probably a better word because the West did influence Asia and Asia was influenced by the West.”

            Ok, then intervention is probably the wrong word and from now I’ll say involvement or influence.

            2.) “People care about the motives and they make a ton of difference because your understanding of the motives affects what words you choose to use. In this case, the use of the word “intervention”. In this case, whether or not the statements you make convey a sense of arrogant condescension.”

            I still think that motives in what I’m arguing don’t make a huge difference because the result is the same…a country invests a lot of money into a country for its own interest but both countries benefit as a RESULT….the result is what matters in this instance for what I’m arguing…in fact, all I am arguing about here are results and not the intent behind them.

            3.) “The West” as a generalization is not uniquely employed by the Chinese alone.

            I realize that but my question was about what do most Chinese people mean when they say “The West” ? Can most Chinese people identify every country that makes up “The West”? I hear a lot of Chinese people complaining about how “The West” makes too many generalizations about China and that is a bit ironic to me and could also be considered rude.

            4.) “Personally, the West generally represents North America and Western Europe.”

            Ok, so now I know what you mean when you say “The West” but can you name every country in Western Europe from memory (no cheating) ?

            5.) “Well, that’s a relief!

            Shouldn’t be, especially when you made arguments about assumptions against me.”

            Double relief :D

            6.) “I think HK ended up better off in many ways due to British influence and rule compared to places that were influenced by the CCP.”

            We agree.

            7.) “We have no way of knowing what the local Chinese would have accomplished absent the British rule. It is a mistake to equate Chinese with CCP, Fike2308. ”

            Maybe but had it been under control of the CCP I think it would be a safe bet that HK would be very similar to many other parts of Mainland China. I don’t necessarily equate Chinese people with the CCP but the CCP is the one-party government of the mainland which claims Taiwan and creates policies for the mainland….and I’ve never met a single person from the mainland who did not insist at length that Taiwan was a part of the mainland…the CCP does have quite a strong influence on the minds of the mainlanders…I find them to be very different from people in HK and Taiwan.

            8.) “In fact, the reason I’m objecting to the word “intervention” is precisely because of the attitude I see behind your statement here.”

            Intepretation on your part. You have already said that motives and intent are important to you so I can assure that regardless of how you might interpret my words my intent is to be objective and neutral…I genuinely believe that England should be given credit for the success of the CCP and many Asian countries have benefited (to what extent is debatable) from America’s influece….and of course America has been influenced by many countries itself.

            9.) “Your statement suggests the British saved the Chinese in Hong Kong from themselves.”

            Hmm, not my intent. I just think that the British did a better job with HK than the CCP did with the mainland. I also think that the KMT (correct acronym?) did a better job with Taiwan than the CCP would have.

            You’re misinterpreting me…..remember, motives are important!

            10.) “What makes you think they needed British saving or “intervention” in the first place?”

            What makes you think I think they needed “intervention”. I agree that ‘intervention’ was probably a poor word choice on my part. I never said they “needed” it and if I’ve said or tried to imply anything it’s that HK benefited from this involvement which I think you have agreed with….so, I think the issue is you misinterpreting my words and my intent.

            11.) “This is the attitude of colonialism, one that disrespects the indigenous populations’ right to self-determination.”

            For the record, I’m against colonialism…I agree with the right to self-determination.

            12.) “We hear echoes of this very same attitude in CCP justifications for their own neo-colonialism in Xinjiang and Tibet.”

            I totally agree.

            13.) “It was also the same attitude the Japanese arguably learned from the West and espoused in their conquest of Asia during WW2.”

            I’m not sure….what’s your reasoning behind this? I thought Japan had been at war with China several times, even before the existence of America…can’t say with certainty because I’m not in expert in the history of China and Japan prior to WW2.

            Anyway Kai, that’s all I have time for at the moment.

            I’ll take a look at the rest of your post later and try to reply.

            PEACE !

          • Fike2308,

            Maybe but had it been under control of the CCP I think it would be a safe bet that HK would be very similar to many other parts of Mainland China. I don’t necessarily equate Chinese people with the CCP but the CCP is the one-party government of the mainland which claims Taiwan and creates policies for the mainland….

            My point was to caution against juxtaposing “results of Chinese with foreign ‘intervention’” vs “results of Chinese left by themselves”. I was criticizing statements like “Take the laowais out and China will stagnate” and “Take that away, and it’s just back to the fish ponds and the rice paddies”. Imagine an American saying “if we white Europeans didn’t come take away your lands, you native Americans wouldn’t have known what to do with them and would still be living in teepees and hunting bison!”

            One, what’s wrong with that? Two, how do we know if the native Americans wouldn’t have developed a different way had the white Europeans not, largely, violently conquered them? Maybe they could’ve traded and a unified native American nation develops. Over time, they develop, industrialize, modernize to be an equivalent or “superior” nation than even the Western Europeans?

            These are all thought experiments designed to demonstrate that while history went one way, we can’t be so certain how history would’ve unfolded had history not gone that way. In other words, just because we, right now, think HK benefitted from British rule, we can’t be certain it would’ve been worse had it not or. Furthermore, when we say it would’ve been worse had it been left to the “local Chinese”, it can be come across as being racist (even if you didn’t intend it) because it sounds like the simple state of being Chinese damns something to backwardness, failure, etc. We should try to be precise and careful when we talk about these subjects because they are indeed sensitive. Are we suggesting Hong Kong would’ve been worse off had it remained under CCP rule or under Chinese control? There’s a difference here.

            Imagine, next, that the KMT-led ROC wasn’t defeated by the CCP. We can’t know for certain but suppose it led to a mainland China largely resembling Taiwan today, except on a much larger scale. Would this nation be stronger and more developed than mainland China now? Maybe. Would there be more or less non-Chinese here making comments about the importance of laowais to China? About how things are so much better in HK? Again, my point here is to avoid equating or accidentally equating the choices and results of CCP governance of the mainland with “Chinese” governance. The point is to avoid saying something that amounts to “things would be worse if us foreigners didn’t come, wage war, colonize, conquer, and then set up a ‘democracy’ only 7 years before we handed it back to you and you Chinese were all left to yourselves.”

            Everything I’m writing is an effort to help you understand the various considerations one should, well, consider, before making such irresponsible remarks. It is one thing to say “Taiwan and HK are more developed than mainland China” and another to say “Taiwan and HK are more developed thanks to the Americans and British.” The former is a judgement. The latter is a judgement with an attribution of responsibility. As with my earlier example, Westerners like to say “we brought democracy to HK/Taiwan” but do they like the idea that it was them who likewise brought communism to mainland China? Do you see where I’m going with this? We have to be careful of framing “good” things as something “Westerners” did “for the Chinese” while leaving the “bad” things as the consequences of “the Chinese” being “themselves”.

            Imagine the evangelical Christian who says to you “you are saved now, a better person, and going to Heaven because I shared His Word with you.”

            I genuinely believe that England should be given credit for the success of the CCP and many Asian countries have benefited (to what extent is debatable) from America’s influece….and of course America has been influenced by many countries itself.

            I’m not denying that England can be credited for many of the good things Hong Kong has over mainland China, or whatever positives have come from American influence in Taiwan, Japan, the Philipines, etc. I’m cautioning people against becoming arrogant, self-righteous, and condescending about it, against taking up the white man’s burden. I genuinely believe they can be given credit for whatever we judge as good and blame for whatever we judge as bad, and that by doing so, I’m not really enthusiastic about people who act as if the UK and Americans were the best things to have ever happened to these Asians.

            Perhaps it was not your intention or the intention of many other people here to convey such an attitude, but human communications is a tricky thing. It is still wise for a person to first qualify their statements, and when a misunderstanding occurs, to genuinely seek to clarify their intent in acknowledgement of the other person’s objection. That said, I do not think I’ve misunderstood most of the people I’ve objected to here on this website and they are every bit as guilty of the self-righteous arrogance and condescension I see in their comments. It can get annoying, just as we get annoyed with the Chinese netizens who are racist towards blacks or always blaming the Japanese.

            You’re misinterpreting me…..remember, motives are important!

            Heh, and I’m communicating to you how I interpreted not just your comments but also those of Laowai and ALAN above, so you can clarify to me the limits of what you’re saying and that you stand apart from Laowai and ALAN. This is good. Better this than to silently seethe in contempt of each other over an unvoiced misunderstanding.

            What makes you think I think they needed “intervention”.

            I was asking a rhetorical question, with the point I was driving at being a tempering of any “they should be thanking us/the Brits/the Americans” sentiments. If you don’t have those sentiments, great, but above you did say you genuinely believe they should get credit. I’m saying there’s a difference between giving credit and demanding credit, especially when the other person isn’t denying credit. It’s one thing to know, for example, that HK owes a lot of what it makes it “superior to mainland China” now to the British, but it’s another thing to demand other people to acknowledge it without them ever denying it. A person like that, usually a foreigner comes across as self-serving, as seeking to reinforce their own self-esteem, to compliment their own kind, to compliment whatever shared identification they have with the Brits, whether it be a shared cultural background, political history, or “Western” identity and ideology.

            Imagine an Asian person you don’t know who leans over and says to you: “The paper you are writing on was invented by us Asians! Without us, you’d still be chiseling words into stone!” I don’t know about you, but I can easily imagine my first reaction being “gee, thanks for the memo, you ASS.”

            These statements, like those by Laowai and ALAN above, easily come across as chest-beating narcissism.

            I’m not sure….what’s your reasoning behind this? I thought Japan had been at war with China several times, even before the existence of America…can’t say with certainty because I’m not in expert in the history of China and Japan prior to WW2.

            My reasoning is based on the history of Japan. War and conquest has been a part of humanity, regardless of culture or nation, since time immemorial, that is true. What I said was arguably true is that Japan’s conquest and colonization of its Asian neighbors during WW2 was influenced by the precedent of Western colonialism and a Japanese equivalent to the “white man’s burden” and even “Manifest Destiny”. I don’t really want to give a history lesson any more than I have to so if this idea is new to you, and interesting enough to clarify, I do recommend you doing some study or research on it yourself (Wikipedia works). If afterwards there’s something you disagree with what I said, we can discuss and debate later. It doesn’t make sense for us to argue about it when you’re not familiar with it in the first place. I’m not trying to teach history here, just trying to explain how Western influence can be linked to many “bad” things/consequences as much as it can be linked to many “good” things/consequences.

            PEACE !

            Cheers.

        • let them no sense!they are racists, but they don’t know that they are highly under looked in western countries!maybe they need to explore much, that would make them shut their fuckers down.

    • Well mr smartass. Chinese girls look for money to secure a safe future for the entire family. You are dead wrong when you think we have fail safe systems in the west. Im from Sweden and most people say, wow that country is very good. I had blod cancer (20 years ago) for 2 years and the numerous doctors did not find the cause. I did NOT get money since it was not diagnosed. When they found out what it was i was in last stage. That resulted in heavy medicin that destroyed most of my organs. So you think i get something now? I can not have a steady job since i get sick all the time cause the immun system is not working. I get 0 from Swedish healtcare now. Wake up from your dreams my friend. No society is perfect.

      • I’d rather live in Sweden than China.

        • For example (and oversimplified), China got foreign investments and technology, while the West gained access to new markets and profits.

          In response to Kai, do some reading about Danone and Wahaha to see who benefited the most from those foreign investments and technology. Before the “West” came along, Wahaha didn’t know how to bottle water…when the “western” company (Danone) brought a lawsuit against Wahaha, the boss responded with Ad hoc nationalism and Evian water was blocked from being delivered in Shanghai.

          Do some reading about due diligence in business practices here, and you’ll see it’s not all the evil “West” exploiting China.

          • Alan,

            Do some reading about due diligence in business practices here, and you’ll see it’s not all the evil “West” exploiting China.

            Do some reading about what I wrote here, and you’ll see I’ve never said it’s all the evil West exploiting China. I can very likely list off more examples of genuinely fair-dealing Western/foreign businesses getting screwed over by shady Chinese people than you can…and it still wouldn’t change the validity of the statement you think you’re somehow proving wrong, would it?

            Shall we go back to your “fish ponds and rice paddies” comment?

          • Shall we go back to your “fish ponds and rice paddies” comment?

            Yeah dude, if you like. Because you know I just love those girls working away getting all wet, I lurrrvveee it baby!! Don’t you?

            And you right, Wahaha water rocks any thirst! I take it all back, stupid laowai, I’ll never drink Evian again!!

            Now jocular semantics aside, why does fish ponds and rice paddies annoy you so much? Just curious. But hey, we all get our buttons pushed on here, so I’ll chip in as long as you will.

            Cheers and 3 kuai beers!!!
            PEACE!

          • Alan,

            It is genuinely disturbing that you cannot see what is offensive about your “fish ponds and rice paddies” comment. Imagine a white person commenting to a black person that he’d still be stuck on a plantation without white civil rights activists. You’re not that dense, are you?

            As for your aside, I personally don’t care for Evian, but I wasn’t making any irrelevant comments comparing it to Wahaha water anyway.

  31. And Jason doesn’t understand the situation in the rest of the world.

  32. To all

    I do understand about the rest of world, cuz i’m willing to open my heart to rest of world and i really appreciate and find out it’s colorful world, and I’m learning very hard to understand more.

    I’m very willing to admit that western culture and system is more suitable for the developing of 21century

    That’s why i’m learning english very hard and i’m learning spanish as well. And probably i have watched more american movies than some of you guys(i watch every day)

    What i’ve learned about american culture are about freedom, personal happiness and be humourous, which are very easy to understand for me.

    Teenages in the U.S don’t give shit to their parents. Getting divorce is just like tearing off a piece of paper, yeah, cuz you are not happy ahout it, heart wants what want.

    I really like western culture(parts of by the way) and I’m not gonna judge it. i keep my viewpoint.

    The one who aren’t open minded are you guys cuz you think your cultrue and technology are most developed and advanced in the world, yeah, technology, i admit, but culture, wow, sorry i’m not fan of it.

    The reason why i say you guys don’t understand about chinese and china culture is that you are not willing and not trying to understand about it cuz you guy really don’t give shit to china. you get all the information about china are from CNN,BBC etc whatever who got stereotype about china.

    Every foreigner i’ve met in china are all talking about the corpution of china govnerment, pollution, unfairness etc, they never appreciate the nice chinese food and splendid culture they’ve experienced. all you guy know about is complaining but never apprecaite.

    Whatever you see about china not comfortable and not same as your core value you will complain and judge.
    Yeah i know some of western people are really bitches, they are born to complain and judge people.

    what i’m trying to say is that i do admit china’s system sucks and western system are more advanced. Even so, you guys are not qualified to judge about chinese culture.

    • “Teenages in the U.S don’t give shit to their parents. Getting divorce is just like tearing off a piece of paper, yeah, cuz you are not happy ahout it, heart wants what want.

      I really like western culture(parts of by the way) and I’m not gonna judge it. i keep my viewpoint.”

      “Yeah i know some of western people are really bitches, they are born to complain and judge people.”

      Learn English properly and then come back here to write, son. Talking all this contradictory, stream of consciousness bullshit. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

      So you watched a bunch of American movies. So what? Does that qualify you as an expert on American culture? I think not. Have you even left your shit, little village before? From my experience, most of the foreigners on here (at least the regulars) lived a long time in the mainland. You have the audacity to make such claims about America, as if we are completely apathetic towards divorce or respecting one’s parents.

      Are you fucking serious? Just because you love to watch John Connor’s bitch ass in Terminator 2 disrespect his step-parents doesn’t mean most average teenagers are the same. I’ve seen kids pull worse stunts in China than anything I would have ever imagined. Americans generally have a lot of respect for elders and parents. To think otherwise, is just plain being obtuse.

      You better stop hitting the books so hard and start preparing to speak real English. Otherwise when you get to the States and start spouting off these braindead observations gleamed from your long nights at the 網吧you’re gonna get stuck hard. That’s because you’re forgetting one thing about Western culture: we don’t take kindly to people like yourself claiming that we are not qualified to make judgements on your culture, yet you’re qualified to make asinine judgements concerning ours. Instead, you’ll just get beat the fuck down.

      • “Learn English properly and then come back here to write, son. Talking all this contradictory, stream of consciousness bullshit.”

        haha, I think we’ve got a 红卫兵 Faulkner in the making.

        But, Jason seriously, most people on this site have had more exposures to China than simply media outlets. I’m sure they were disappointed when they learned we can’t really jump from the tip of one tree branch to another, much in the same way you will be when you realize how reductionist your believed construct of the western culture is.

      • 社會是和諧的 囧 – Dude, you are awesome and I agree with everything you said.

        I lived in China for around 4 years, studied the language a bit, visited a dozen or so cities (more than most locals ever visit) read Mo zi, Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi, Kong Zi, The Art of War, Three Kingdoms, etc.

        And Chinese people still say, “You don’t understand China!” and then go on to make unqualified statements and stereotypes about other countries they have NEVER VISITED.

        Yeah, we may not all be China experts but we probably understand their culture better than they understand ours.

        And I have no problem with people coming to America and critiquing any to every aspect of it but they better not get pissy if if I visit their country and form my own opinions based on experience and research.

        PEACE!

  33. TO Buffalo Bill

    I’m sorry to hear that, but you are not gonna complain if you know how dirty about chinese medical care system.

    Your suffering is not common in your country but what we are suffering are not even appealable

  34. Somebody’s been posting under my name. What’s Chinasmack’s policy on imposters?

  35. What I see here is only a loser’s post. A selfish man who worries money before other things, and pity that in the end he blames it was because his ex was material. If your relationship was so money-centered, it was not only her fault, but also yours. And a coward who is afraid of taking responsibility of a family and taking the role of being a husband, is not worthy of being married to. I’d rather being single my whole life than marrying someone like him…

  36. Is Western men and chinese girls compatible? I find some very nice chinese girls. My friend always say chinese girls are in for it just for money. However they will probably not divorce or cheat on you. I like china girls even if most can not communicate. Some are lame when it comes to sex, some are actually the best lovers i have encounter.

  37. men want the same thing from women though, they desire a wife that can cook and clean yet have a job themselves while maintaining the responsibility or raising kids. women want upgrades as do men.

  38. It’s the sad truth of the current situation for post 80′s chinese men. i never understand as if chinese women have no emotional feelings? If a house is going to be the barrier of your relationship, I’d advise that not to be involved at all, because at the end of the day, you are not everything she is going after, but your belongings. I know a friend who is facing the similar situation, of course I would encourage him to stay with her if he can since they’ve been together for more than 5 years, but I also mentioned if the parents does not approve, you cannot force this because at the end of the day, family reunions, and discussions will be very uncomfortable, and will be awkward. Better off withou it.

  39. Why doesn’t the man get married to a woman who will also take a job, add their money together so they can do both? Why is that not an option?

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