Propaganda Official Showered With 50 Cent RMB Notes

Chinese government propaganda chief showered with wu mao (50 cent) RMB notes by a student protestor.

From NetEase:

Yunnan propaganda official meets protest when giving speech, has 50 cent notes thrown at him

Summary: April 22 afternoon, Deputy Director Wu Hao of the Yunnan Provincial Party Committee Propaganda Department appeared at the Renmin University Cisco Live Broadcast Studio, to participate in the special Wu Hao speech organized by the Remin University School of Journalism. Here, he was showered with wu mao (50 cent) RMB cash notes/paper bills by a self-professed netizen.

Organizers help clean up the 50 cent cash notes thrown by a student protesting the propaganda official's speech at Remin University.

Comments from NetEase:

网易云南网友:

The China Central Bank, China Banking Regulatory Commission, and China Insurance Regulatory Commission held an emergency meeting today, deciding that from May 1st on, 0.5 yuan bills and coins will no longer be in circulation.

网易火星网友:

When shamelessness became fashion, the wu mao came to be.

网易上海网友

More creative than throwing a shoe.

网易火星网友:

Those on the internet who are always making a racket about the “wu mao dang” are usually people who are eager for their own absolute freedom of speech while not allowing others to have freedom of speech.
This character/level of this person who threw the money is also not high.

网易北京网友:

I am wu mao, who is 1 cent [someone who works for the American government]?

网易黑龙江大庆 网友:

The wu mao dang does not necessarily exist, but this term was created by American dogs. And the existence of American dogs is a fact, and then there are also a group of people who are nothing yet still seeking something on the side screaming. These people are just political casualties/sacrifices, as it is not necessary for these scum to pave the road for our progress.

网易天津网友:

The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: How much did the chicken next door give you?
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: Why don’t you try laying a good tasting chicken egg yourself.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: It was a brave, good, honest, hard-working chicken that laid the egg.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: However awful it tastes it was still laid by your own family’s chicken, so on this alone you cannot say it tastes awful.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: It is already much better than the egg from the year before last.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: This is the chicken egg you grew up on, so what right do you have to say this chicken egg does not taste good?
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: What is your motive for saying such a thing?
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: Even saying that the egg laid by your own family’s chicken does not taste good, are you still human?!
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: The duck egg next door tastes even more awful, but why don’t you say anything about that?
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: If you think it tastes awful then don’t eat it, get lost and go eat the duck egg next door then.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: Duck egg does taste good, but it does not match our family’s basic situation.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: Nonsense! Our family’s chicken egg is five times better tasting than the neighbor’s duck egg!
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: There is a process for everything. It is not yet time to eat duck egg.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: What use is simply complaining, if you have the time [to complain], it would be better spent if you went to diligently earn money!
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: You attitude is negative, even bad tasting chicken eggs you have to complain about.
The People: This chicken egg tastes really awful.
Wu Mao: There are no perfect eggs in the world, so if you think American chicken eggs taste good, then go!

网易中国网友:

Wu mao are even more pitiful than prostitutes. What prostitutes sell is only their own flesh, while wu mao have sold off even their own dignity. So shameless…

网易北京朝阳网友:

Why didn’t he exchange for coins and then throw?

网易北京大兴网友:

It appears that the wu mao‘s tactics have evolved after all, coming out in groups of 3-5, with one posting the first reply and the second and third replies echoing in agreement, then several replies later having yet another person screaming. Looks like the master [government/Communist Party] will have to dip into its savings, its costs just multiplied 3-5 times.

See also:

This is not what “making it rain” means. chinaSMACK personals.

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  • jimmythebeast

    jimmythebeast showers chinasmack with first posts

    • Zictor

      Wow! Who cares?

      • Chris

        You care, apparently.

  • FYIADragoon

    in b4 jimmythebeast realizes that someone got sofa before him.

    • jimmythebeast

      owned. and btw, i definitely got first post last time b/c there weren’t any comments before me. the admins here just hate me and moved my comment down

      • Xav

        How can I put it…
        Jimmy boy you just beastly suck! Get a life looser

      • FYIADragoon

        I think you’re doing it wrong.

        in b4 doesn’t work like that, brah.

  • Shanhairen

    In an ironic twist, The 50 Cent Gang members come out in force to deny their own existence, thereby affirming it.

  • whatever

    ding the guy, but he’s fucked now….

  • Name (required)

    What is the meaning of 50 cents?

  • Jay K.

    “This is not what “making it rain” means” HAHAHAHAHAA fuckin most hilarious 1 liner ad for personals so far. by far the best. r. kelly would be proud

    • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

      I still think,

      make your own -gate at Smackpersonals is the best,

      how much did this message cost?

      thats right!

      五毛党万岁!

  • David Thooi (aka Gordon)

    The incident clearly tells us that Mainland Chinese have no morals at all. Once again, it has been proven China’s so-called 2,500 years old Confucius teaching and Confucianism have made a total mockery of present day society in China. What a funny joke!

    China and Mainland Chinese cannot deny the fact that western morals still reign supreme.

    Unless China discards her hopeless Confucius ideology and Confucianism immediately, and starts looking to the West and learn (or better still, copycat) the western morals, the country will remain hopeless and will forever remain at what it is today i.e. lacking in moral values, backward, poor etc., just to mention a few.

    • http://www.makeyourownpheromones.com Michael

      Start by splitting up the damn provinces into countries first. China is really a composite of ‘nationalities’.

      • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

        Mao Loves You!

        Sulu 说问题, 你是哪国人吗?

        有一个wumaodang博客r 回答: 我是地球人!

        can one care to translate?

        Always,

        keep it real, keep it RED….

        …you know the rest!

        五毛党万岁!

        • 你是猪

          你妈党万岁啊?
          昨晚我和你妈睡觉的时候她没和我说她有成立党派啊。
          加入你妈党的优惠也是可以得到你妈的关怀吗?

        • 你是猪

          不过我想那麽多男人已经 ”进去“ 你妈党了,你妈应该很 “强大” 吧

          • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

            yeah, your mother too!

            五毛党万岁!

          • 你是猪

            my mother no, your mother is a whore :D

      • Yin

        Why, so that greater powers can practice divide and conquer? Split the US, Russia, Canada, Brazil, EU, and India first – then we can talk about splitting China.

        • Alikese

          Wait, wait, wait. Since when is Canada in the running as one of the “greater powers.” That is absolute bull-hockey, sir!

          • Yin

            What? Where is your Canadian pride, eh?

            More seriously, China’s united for the same reason the EU is united: because regional integration > regional strife. There was an era when China was, in fact, multiple nations – it was called the Warring States period and it featured continuous warfare for nearly five hundred years as each nation maneuvered for advantage over the others.

            Finally, one state managed to subdue it all, and in the two thousand years thereafter, the people of China gradually mixed and integrated. To this end, the raison d’etre for the Chinese state is no different than the raison d’etre for the EU, except that China had a head start of about a dozen centuries. The ultimate goal is the same: the creation of an unified body politic to negotiate between the interests of the various regions of China. Even if China were to split into multiple countries tomorrow, it would have to come back together in some form of an union in order to achieve regional stability. The old system of contending kingdoms and nation-states simply does not work, and examples of it not working can be seen readily throughout history, both Chinese and European.

          • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

            I got x3 汉字 4 U

            白球恩

            thats right baby,

            where is your Fing Ice hole,

            五毛党万岁

          • Snicker

            I can’t reply to Yin, so I’ll reply to Alikese:

            Where is our Canadian pride? This is classic canadian pride! Low key to the finish, self-degrading humour and great hockey and beer in the evening.

            Just goes to show, Yin, that not every bunch of people with a line drawn around it on a map is a bunch of crazy patriots, brainlessly yelling slogans in hopes of a promotion.

      • DevelopingChina

        YES, WHAT A GREAT IDEA MICHAEL!!! Just have a look at North Korea and South Korea and how well they get along. Like peas and carrots they are.

        Fucking idiot.

    • Yin

      China is not Confucian. It’s not even Communist.

      • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanjing That Chinese Kid

        This post deserves a *ding*

      • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

        There are still plenty of Confucian elements in the society. But Kedafu is right in one respect: the sort of anti-Confucian rhetoric David Thooi put out is directly out of revolutionaries from Lu Xun through Mao Zedong. They made some progress with it, but not 100%.

        Truth is, no country follows a single ideology 100%. To do so would be ridiculous — ignoring reality to conform to ideological purity is always a detriment. Chinese will know this from the Great Leap Forward.

      • Snicker

        zzzzz…we got a China expert here!

    • Gordon (aka David Thooi)

      You are perfectly right.

      China is a disgraceful nation. Her people has no moral values.

      The country leaders are only capable in enriching their own pockets by manipulating their 1.3 billion Mainland Chinese idiots who cannot think rationally on their own.

      The country went through cultural revolution back in the years of 60s’. There should be another revolution this time to get rid of Confucius teaching and Confucianism, and adopt Western moral values in total.

      I am now calling out to all the 1.3 billion Mainland Chinese idiots out there. Get on your hands and feet and starts learning to crawl. Hopefully in no time, you will learn to stand and walk on your own.

      By adopting western moral values, hopefully it will make all 1.3 billion idiots less idiotic.

      • Yin

        Anyone who thinks China is Confucian knows neither Confucianism nor China.

      • dirtywhiteboy

        I agree with Yin, the May 4th movement was to get rid of confucian idealism. you obviously have no idea what you are talking about

      • http://thecapitalinthenorth.blogspot.com I live in China

        actually half the point of the cultural revolution was to get rid of the influence of Confucianism, although it was unable to.

    • http://thecapitalinthenorth.blogspot.com I live in China

      will you quit this cultural imperialist nonsense of the worst kind? do you think it makes you look clever or daring? What has Africa achieved by copying the West?

      • Snicker

        Do you think Africa was busy copying the west? Africa was raped and pillaged by the west. And just ended up speaking English and French as a somewhat embarrassing result

        Will Africa do well by learning from China? Who knows, I doubt it. Africa needs its own path. But in the meantime, at least China is mostly just pillaging, without the raping bit. Kind of have a little more respect for this colonial master.

        • http://thecapitalinthenorth.blogspot.com I live in China

          Initially Africa had no choice but to copy the West. However, nowadyas most African nations have Christianity as the major religion and have English or French as the official language in which serious business is conducted. There educational systems are also imitations of the European ones. Where has this got them? Has this helped them at all? no. And I am not saying that imitating China will do them any better.

      • outcast

        “will you quit this cul­tural impe­ri­al­ist non­sense of the worst kind? do you think it makes you look clever or dar­ing? What has Africa achieved by copy­ing the West?”

        Some of their institutions are copies of the west, but their culture is not, leading to massive corruption, mismanagement, tribalism, and superstitious nonsense.

  • outcast

    “China and Mainland Chinese cannot deny the fact that western morals still reign supreme.”

    First you say it has no morals, then you say it only has western morals. Make up your mind.

  • lxjx

    So, what happened to the money? Accepted, returned or donated?

  • elenore

    America is split into 50 States,mini governments.Anyway in U.S. starting to call 50 cent,CHI-COMS short for Chinese Communist ,however they are having a negative affect for China and it’s image,because they are more about Smack talking about other Nations and citizens or making excuses than having anything positive to say about China or it’s people or policies.Plus they repeat the same negative things over and over again whether or not it’s relative to the news articles.Outsiders are just starting to ignore everything they say they like Ads on the highway.Honestly people outside of China are curious about life and people in China just like anywhere else but it hard to know if the what actual opinion and what’s just propaganda.

    • Yin

      What Americans often forget is the extent to which their own country went to prevent itself from splitting apart. The secession of the southern states was prevented only by a disastrous civil war, after which the federal government gained more and more power, until the situation today, in which the “states” that make up the US are really little more than provinces.

      All nations are political constructs. Some are just older constructs than others.

      • elenore

        That is somewhat true but there are still Rights of States over it’s citizens which to an extent do have cultural difference from each other because of that law ,state get to regulate like education for one.Texas new educational history book standard would enrage people in my state at the same with our environmental laws which are way more strict than other state as well as laws about pot smoking or the death penalty would enrage Texas.State get control helps make different laws for cultural differences within the society and our ethnic and regional areas.The confusion is that the Supreme court decides not the President or Congress who has authority over what.and state have their own reserves that the President can’t use without permission from the State government.It hasn’t gotten Bloody because the citizens here have basically respect for the Court and let it decide who been right The States or Federal Governments.The federal government only makes Blanket laws over State Government for bare minimum standards for State Laws and Regulations sometimes because like I have Presidents and Congress have been had there laws been declared Un- Constitutional because of State Rights Amendment.

        • elenore

          Sorry that came out wrong States do have Rights over the Federal Government and the Supreme Court is the one who decides Who has authority the Federal or State governments.Their are cultural differences between the states as well, That’s why the State makes laws so culturally people are getting laws that reflects it culture as long as it’s not discrimination.

          • whatever

            please, put, a, comma, every, now, and, then,,,,,,,,,,3Q,,,,,,,

    • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

      the last comment, am sorry I just could not help it,

      50 美国 states, 50 …..!!!

      thats right!

      五毛党万岁

      发票 x5 “red snippets”

      = 2.5Y

  • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

    “I am wu mao, who is 1 cent [someone who works for the American government]?”

    Confused about the bracketed comment, was “cent” here originally 美分?

    [Note from Fauna: Yes. You can put your mouse over our translated English to see the original Chinese.]

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I7GCciA3z0 ImmortalTechnique

    I thought this was a story about 50 Cent’s latest diss.

  • shengguo

    i love Chinese sarcasm ( ^_^ )

  • dirtywhiteboy

    i don’t know about all of you, but that guy got PWND

  • Bob

    “If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all” ~Noam Chomsky

    • racecar

      Yeah, but come on, Noam Chomsky doesn’t know any Chinese people!

  • / dream it and live it

    democracy cannot be applied to a nation governing a population of 1.3 billion people. it simply cannot be done. there is not enough resources to sustain a equal and high quality of life for everybody.

    • whatever

      what about india then? not perfect but kind of democratic

      • Bakery

        India has nowhere near an “equal or high quality of life for everybody”

    • http://joyceyland.blogspot.com Joyce Lau

      So there’s some sort of population quota on democracy?
      And since when was democracy, like choosing your own leaders, the same as a high quality of life?
      Love that Chinese logic.

      • / dream it and live it

        Every year, illegal immmigrants use all sorts of ways to sneak into America. If the US gov allow everybody in, do you think a disciplined democratic system can exist?
        Democracy=freedom of speech & demand of common rights and benefits= hence better life for citizens.
        Are you confused?
        Americans shares a high GDP (quality of life). On the other hand, the Chinese share a lower GDP (quality of life) and they are an unitary gov who claims to be communist. See the difference?
        As a American, I love my country but I do believe there are many flaws that needs to be addressed. China has a fast-growing economy, but does everybody benefit? And does everybody love the wu-mao government (the so-called chinese patriots). Think again

        • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

          Where did you get this idea that GDP = quality of life? Yes the US has a higher per capita GDP, but much of that money is controlled by the richest 1%, and people in the lower levels of the economy do fairly poorly. Our overall quality of life is certainly better than China’s, but not necessarily better than many other countries, due to problems with the health care system and other social services.

          Besides that, not all democratic governments have all the benefits the US has. Mexico has a democratic government. So does India (hey, democracy in a country of almost 1 billion).

          In any case, much of your statement seems to be aimed at the US having the best quality of life (which is not necessarily true) and needing to take measures to avoid growing in order to keep it. Shouldn’t we be concerned with bringing up the quality of life for everyone? Do you think this is impossible?

          • Somethin Somethin

            Calling India a democracy is like calling Chicago a democracy. A state and a city run by machine politics of quid pro quo.

            That being said GDP I agree does not mean quality of life. However taking on the world’s poor, uneducated, and tired is only good when you’ve got something for them to do. In this ever decreasingly manufacturing centered economy and slowly mechanizing farm industry the need for immigration of this type becomes less and less. The Statue of Liberty doesn’t send mana from heaven to feed the starving masses and so as you say it should be the goal of the free world to make the world a better place through developmental aid, political support of progressive regimes, and long term security committments. As for the Wu-Mao kids of KDS I often think of some jackass at the olympics beginning some USA!! chant.

  • Joe #2

    What happened to the guy who did this? Has there been any news?

  • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

    I wonder why they chose such a short man to work in propaganda office? In the second picture you can even see that his feet can’t reach the floor ))

  • Rick in China

    I like this one best,

    “Wu mao are even more pitiful than prostitutes. What prostitutes sell is only their own flesh, while wu mao have sold off even their own dignity. So shameless…”

    I love how the poster thinks hookers have dignity. I wonder how widespread this mindset is — is it possible to be a dignified prostitute?

    • http://www.lovelovechina.com Crystal

      You know – there is such term “political prostitute”.

      Well, I am sure that none of prostitutes are proud of what they are doing, and all of them dream that one day they will leave their “business”.

      Not quite sure that “political prostitutes” think in the same way…

      • Master C

        Well not none, I think some are rightly enthused with their libidos or sexual prowess and just can help sharing that with the world. Those are the best and most sincere kind who will always keep the red light districts going. The rest are often rather selfish and mercenary, with the sadder versions working out some personal problems or playing out some traumatic experience from their past.

        Political prostitutes though are a bane on mankind because they do not improve governance and make lives unbearable by rubber-stamping monstrous laws for their personal profit. Governance has to be an altruistic endeavour, not a power, or ego trip, or something that attracts the greedy or unprincipled who make NEPOTISTIC fiefdoms within bureaucracy. See the site below.

        http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/world/61214-li-pengs-son-promoted-communist-dynasty-strengthened

        The above site describes not a prostitute but villainously unprincipled and unethical to the point of destruction of social order via nepotism. Very dangerous trend that must be addressed by the Politburo if they wish to not be looked down upon by what remains of the ‘civilised world’.

        http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/54611.png

  • Yin

    Somethin Somethin – I disagree with your idealistic assessment of how the EU and the US came to be. World War II and the Cold War were the solidifying factors behind the EU, without which the union would not have been possible due to the fundamental resistance of several member states to the concept of an united Europe. Only through the conquest and subjugation of the Axis states, which lay outside the system of developing alliances headed by Britain and France, did it become possible for the EU to emerge.

    Likewise, the Civil War was the litmus test of the American system, which until the victory of the Union, was heading towards fragmentation due to fundamental cultural conflicts between the North and the South. None of the southern states “voluntarily” submitted to the Union and you would do wise to refrain from ever suggesting such to the face of old southern Confederates.

    Moving on – the initial unification of China was achieved by force, but its political and cultural foundations had been the “arduous work of centuries,” ever since the concept of the Confucian Mandate was developed. Indeed, many of the philosophers who lived during the Warring States period intended their ideas to put a stop to the incessant strife of the contending kingdoms. The eventual acceptance of the Mandate by the provinces of the Chinese Empire ushered in proto-nationalist sentiments as exemplified in the Hua-Yi distinction and the belief, by the Chinese elites, that there should be *one* Son of Heaven and that he should rule *all* of the civilized (read: Chinese) world, as did the sage kings of old.

    By contrast, the USSR and Yugoslavia are terrible examples because they have no cultural-historical precedent and are solely the result of Communist world revolution, which, unlike Confucianism in ancient China, failed decades after its adoption. Hindustan is likewise a bad example because of the religious and cultural antagonism between Islam and Hinduism; yet, in calling India a “generally mono-ethnic” state it is obvious you don’t even understand the nature of India. The Roman Conquest is a solid comparison – had it lasted for two thousand years. The Frankish consolidation, likewise. As for the Mongols, there was never really a chance for their empire to endure because it lacked everything other than right of might.

    China, as a political and cultural entity, did not last over two thousand years by virtue of being the equivalent of the USSR or Yugoslavia. This should be obvious.

    • Yin

      Consequently, if you’re going to use ancient (as opposed to contemporary) examples, then at least use ones that have had similar enduring power, such as the national genesis of France, Germany, and Italy from originally disparate tribes. Indeed, at the time of France’s creation, it was said that half the kingdom did not even speak French.

      • Somethin Somethin

        To start with I wasn’t referring to India as the mono-ethnic state I was certainly referring to China. Hindustan certainly makes for an excellent example when you apply it to the breakaway states of Tibet and East Turkmenistan. As both these states are most certainly breaking away for reasons of cultural(eg. religious) reasons where in they feel their minority status is being applied using force of arms. This is of course is saying that the Han population cannot build up a firm enough base to breed them out or simply follow a path of attrition as seen in the American Indian(post-epidemic) and Australian Aboriginal situations.

        The USSR and Yugoslav are also keen as they’re primary examples of polyglot states held together by artificial means in which the interests of regional peoples began to outweigh the need for a centralized polity. All of these examples were also short lived and resulted in the fracturing of the state into much smaller more ethnically identifiable states. Which is a possibility for the Chinese state in the future.

        The Warring States period example is most certainly not modern and therefore I believe requires a closer contemporary example of a similar situation. Hence my use of more ancient examples.

        The EU is not so simply the work of the end of imperialism and with it the beginning of the Cold War. The tragedy of multiple tries at European empire building both on the continent and abroad, the subsequent decay of the colonies, the failed policies of mercantilism several times over, the general respect for the integrity of the state over the past hundred years, the list goes on, but the result is the EU. Without the burden of history the EU isn’t possible. I will make a concession that economic liberalism as a philosophy has probably taken as long as the solid forming of the confuscianist rhetoric you used to justify the forming of Greater China.

        Anywho good points intelligently made Sir.

        • Yin

          Somethin Something, you should realize that I was responding to Michael with the Warring States period, in which he expressed the opinion that the *provinces* of China should be split apart into different countries, which obviously means that he does not subscribe to your notion of China as a mono-ethnic country, which implies to me that you two are talking about different things. Tibet and East Turkestan are separate issues. I would not compare Tibet and East Turkestan to the Warring States period.

  • outcast

    “Obviously he doesn’t understand Chinese morals, they are there they are just different”

    Are you kidding? A society where corruption is structured, where wife beating is common and tolerated, where lying and cheating are commonplace, where racism and xenophobia is normal, where women are still essentially second class citizens (many of the younger ones are lucky to even be alive), where sexism is open and tolerated, where if the boy has other girls outside of a relationship it is normal and tolerated but if the girl has one she is viciously beaten, where fraud is rampant, and I suppose I could go on. Do you really not see any problems with this?

    • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

      … and yet the rate of violent crime is lower than that of the United States.

      You seem to be taking all the worst parts of Chinese society, lumping them together and exaggerating them. I have lived in China and found it not nearly as bad as you describe.

      corruption: Yes, there’s a great deal of it, as expected. I don’ t understand what you mean by “structured”, but I imagine there is some social structure to corruption in many places.

      Lying cheating, etc: You will find thieves and con-men in any dense population. I didn’t think black markets and thieves were that much more numerous proportionally than in American cities.

      Racism: A bit of this. Again, racism and xenophobia exist everywhere. It may be magnified a little in a largely homogeneous country like China, but what I have found in China is more naive ignorance than active racism.

      Position of women: You’ve gotten most hyperbolic here. While beatings certainly occur, I doubt they are as common as you think, at least in today’s China. The rights of women advanced very far after the 1949 revolution, though they probably backslided a bit due to the One Child Policy. In any case, while there are double standards and such (there are in Western societies as well), today’s Chinese women have it much better than their ancestors, and their situation continues to improve.

      None of your argument justifies your own vehement ethnocentrism nor the suggestion that Chinese should wholesale abandon their own culture for Western ideals. Besides, which Western ideals would you suggest? Christianity? Socialism? Democracy? American conservatism? Liberalism? The list goes on and on and on.

      • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

        3RMB!
        uhoh!!! I am a liar!

        the word of the day is “antithesis”

        If I was to say, what country are you from?

        A wumaodang would say, “earth” “地球”

        get it? 明白?

        therefore,

        the “antithesis” of nationalism,

        is …. thats right!

        Globalism!

        “If you cant take the heat, Get out of the kitchen!”

        五毛党万岁

        • bai ren

          Sorry man
          your hegalian dialectics are not working straight. the kind of globalism we are transitioning into is not a ppl of the earth model, but a people of multinational firms. Yes locality and adherence to citizenship is moveing to global citizenship, but we are joining the ranks of the supra political corperations, who will deliniate us into different camps of interest. Not towards a greater connection with our fellow brothers and sisters no matter who they might be

          • http://www.地球.cn.com Kedafu

            never kowtow to the corporation, Bai Ren,

            see you in Beijing, this weekend,

            you know when and where,

            五毛党万岁

      • outcast

        “… and yet the rate of violent crime is lower than that of the United States”

        And the suicide rate is significantly higher, especially amoung women.

        “corruption: Yes, there’s a great deal of it, as expected. I don’ t understand what you mean by “structured”, but I imagine there is some social structure to corruption in many places.”

        Structured means that is it socially very common and accepted, and in many cases it is the only way to get things done. Japan has much the same problem, although it isn’t as rampant as a result of it trying to “preserve” it’s traditional culture.

        “Lying cheating, etc: You will find thieves and con-men in any dense population. I didn’t think black markets and thieves were that much more numerous proportionally than in American cities.”

        It isn’t anywhere near at the same level as it is in China. Chinese people will lie right to your face about anything and everything. Never trust the word of a chinese, in their culture words are meaningless.

        “Racism: A bit of this. Again, racism and xenophobia exist everywhere. It may be magnified a little in a largely homogeneous country like China, but what I have found in China is more naive ignorance than active racism.”

        Also racism doesn’t exist in America anywhere near to the degree it does in China. At least America has actively tried to get rid of it.

        “Position of women: You’ve gotten most hyperbolic here. While beatings certainly occur, I doubt they are as common as you think, at least in today’s China.”

        The All China Women’s Federation estimated that violence against occurs in 30% of households, but also admitted the real number is likely much higher.They also said that it was widespread, at all levels of society. Not as common as I think? The numbers say otherwise.

        “The rights of women advanced very far after the 1949 revolution, though they probably backslided a bit due to the One Child Policy. ”

        And what did they ever do to advance themselves in society? Nothing. While in the west women were in the streets, trying to draw attention to their cause, even in some cases literally getting themselves killed in order to push the agenda of women’s rights, what did chinese women do? Nothing. Instead it was just handed to them. Women’s rights is a WESTERN value.

        “In any case, while there are double standards and such (there are in Western societies as well),”

        Not nearly to the same degree as in China. Do you see “men only” job advertisements in America? In China they are frequent. In the past 30 years there has been little to no progress, and what have women done to push for further rights and status? Nothing. When wifebeating happens in America, people call the police. When it happens in China, no one cares, no one calls the police, no one will help her. It’s a spectator sport.

        “today’s Chinese women have it much better than their ancestors, and their situation continues to improve.”

        Only because of the adoption of WESTERN values, such as women’s rights.

        “None of your argument justifies your own vehement ethnocentrism”

        So pointing out that other societies are a total mess and their people often lead miserable lives is ethnocentricism? Pointing out that other societies are vastly more corrupt, dishonest, sexist, etc is now ethnocentricism? Give me a break. I’m sure your defense of their society will be cold comfort to its hundreds of millions of victims. They deserve better than what they have.

        “suggestion that Chinese should wholesale abandon their own culture for”

        They should wholesale abandon their culture. Where did it lead them to? Perpetual backwardness and endless poverty, to become at one time the sick man of asia. It’s also riddled with so many deeply rooted and fundemental problems such as sexism that to solve these problems would completely change the nature of chinese culture, making it effectively unrecognizable. Essentially it is rotten to the core.

        I’m not a fan of a lot of things about western people or culture, I feel there must be a better way, and holding on to baggage like the chinese often do will not help them. Time for a new beginning.

        I do find your willingness to defend a society that is decades behind us in terms of social development and values to be quite disconcerting. Once long ago we were like them in a great many ways, we evolved and for the most part they didn’t. To somehow declare that all cultures are equal in spite of our fantastic improvements and achievents is really an insult to everyone who has tried to or is currently trying to make our society better. Some of those people gave their lives for it, don’t spit on their graves by declaring us equal to others who have not addressed these issues.

        • http://thecapitalinthenorth.blogspot.com I live in China

          you are actually ethnocentric, even though you don’t realize it. Does it strike you that the West was far more sexist than modern China about a hundred years ago? Have we completely given up our traditional culture to stop being sexist? I also think you confuse Western values with modernity. A lot of what you consider Western values is simplly the product of a modern capitalist lifestyle. It’s just that the West achieved that lifestyle before the rest of the world, so it’s easy to mix up the two things.
          In any case, I think your view of China’s history is not objective. If chinese culture lead China to be bacward in the last few centuries, then it’s also fair to say that it lead China to being perhaps the most advanced society in the world for much of previous history. And the simple fact is the whole of Asia was backward in comparison to the West during the eighteenth and nineteenth century, something which is only now beginning to change. I hope that the Chinese and other Asians can become modern without just imitating the West, but keeping their own perspective and their own culture.

          • outcast

            “Does it strike you that the West was far more sex­ist than mod­ern China about a hun­dred years ago?”

            China 100 years ago was a place where women had their feet bound and had to stay in the home, living under the 3 obediences and 4 virtues, which meant they had no rights at all. Btw, 100 years ago all marriages were completly arranged.

            “Have we com­pletely given up our tra­di­tional cul­ture to stop being sex­ist?”

            Yes. But it isn’t just about sexism, its also about other problems created by that culture.

            “A lot of what you con­sider Western val­ues is sim­plly the prod­uct of a mod­ern cap­i­tal­ist lifestyle. It’s just that the West achieved that lifestyle before the rest of the world, so it’s easy to mix up the two things.”

            So western values like justice, women’s rights, and freedom are a result of capitalism? That’s absurd. You should thoroughly study the history of western society from the victorian era until now, then come back to comment. You’ll find in many ways the society of 100 years ago has many things in common with China’s of today.

            “then it’s also fair to say that it lead China to being per­haps the most advanced soci­ety in the world for much of pre­vi­ous his­tory. ”

            Actually it’s not fair to say that. The reason is because the culture of China 1,000 years ago was, by the standards of the time, very open and inquisitive which did lead it to become very successful. At around 500 years ago that culture had changed to become the backward, inward looking and highly oppressive and conformist culture that we know today as “traditional chinese culture”.

            “I hope that the Chinese and other Asians can become mod­ern with­out just imi­tat­ing the West, but keep­ing their own per­spec­tive and their own culture.”

            Japan did that, and now where is Japan? A sad, dying nation. Do you want their poor quality of life, or do you want something better? Like it or not, western civilization as it is now at this point in time stands as the definition of modernity, much like chinese civilization used to be 1000 years ago.

            “you are actu­ally eth­no­cen­tric, even though you don’t real­ize it. ”

            I’m not because I fully recognize that if the civilizations positions were reversed I would be willing to say my own culture was backwards and needed to be thrown out. But that isn’t what the situation is. Chinese traditional culture does not offer as good of a life as modern western culture does, let alone the fundemental scientific and technologal achievements (while traditional chinese culture was talking about putting people on the moon in fairy tales, western culture made it a reality).

            300 years ago, in many ways, western cultures and chinese culture were similair, the only difference is that western culture evolved into what it is today and chinese culture did not. That’s how we can determine that chinese culture is backwards.

          • http://chinadivide.com Kai

            outcast,

            There are things you say that I agree with and a lot of things I don’t. What is most disagreeable is your seeming ignorance of how your own points can be used against the culture and society you uphold as inherently superior.

            For example:

            Yes. But it isn’t just about sex­ism, its also about other prob­lems cre­ated by that culture.

            Consider the problems the culture you’re promoting has created.

            So west­ern val­ues like jus­tice, women’s rights, and free­dom are a result of cap­i­tal­ism? That’s absurd.

            That’s not what he said. He’s saying that a lot of the values you hold today are products of the specific socio-economic development Western society has gone through. In other words, you hold those values because of what you’ve gone through. The corollary is that those who haven’t are likely not to hold the exact same set of values with the exact same importance attached to each one.

            Actually it’s not fair to say that. The rea­son is because the cul­ture of China 1,000 years ago was, by the stan­dards of the time, very open and inquis­i­tive which did lead it to become very suc­cess­ful. At around 500 years ago that cul­ture had changed to become the back­ward, inward look­ing and highly oppres­sive and con­formist cul­ture that we know today as “tra­di­tional chi­nese culture”.

            Did it change 500 years ago or did it just stagnate and remain the same? My personal opinion is that China has always been an inward looking, highly oppressive, and conformist culture. Then again, I happen to think most dominant cultures are that way, and most of human society everywhere and at any time is inherently and necessarily conformist. But that’s just me.

            Japan did that, and now where is Japan? A sad, dying nation. Do you want their poor qual­ity of life, or do you want some­thing bet­ter? .

            Strong words there. There’s plenty of people saying the same of America, and as many have said before of Western European powers as well. What’s “better”? A quality of life defined by over-leveraged and over-extended consumerism built upon structural exploitation of foreign populations? One where the wealth gap is continuing to increase? One where public resources are spent more on military and defense than education and welfare? As GAC said above, you’re cherry-picking the worst to compare with the best. Worst of all, you do so without adequate and appropriate context.

            I’m not because I fully rec­og­nize that if the civ­i­liza­tions posi­tions were reversed I would be will­ing to say my own cul­ture was back­wards and needed to be thrown out.

            Maybe. But maybe you should double-check the definition of “ethnocentric”.

            Chinese tra­di­tional cul­ture does not offer as good of a life as mod­ern west­ern cul­ture does, let alone the fun­de­men­tal sci­en­tific and tech­nolo­gal achieve­ments (while tra­di­tional chi­nese cul­ture was talk­ing about putting peo­ple on the moon in fairy tales, west­ern cul­ture made it a reality).

            Why are you comparing Chinese traditional culture with modern Western culture? You’re beating a straw man here. I get the feeling you can’t separate Chinese culture from “traditional” or Western culture from “modern”. Just as “traditional” Western culture historically modernized with what they learned from then “modern” Chinese culture, so can Chinese culture modernize from what it learns from “modern” Western culture. What the people above arguing with you have suggested is that it is entirely possible to modernize without adopting Western values, lock stock, and barrel, that scientific and technological advancement is not necessarily tied to adoption of every Western socio-political value as Westerners hold.

            It is a mistake for you to believe certain socio-political values are inseparable from modernization.

            300 years ago, in many ways, west­ern cul­tures and chi­nese cul­ture were sim­i­lair, the only dif­fer­ence is that west­ern cul­ture evolved into what it is today and chi­nese cul­ture did not. That’s how we can deter­mine that chi­nese cul­ture is backwards.

            Sure, and what’s to stop Chinese culture today evolving into something that will enable future Chinese people to determine that Western culture is backwards? I think what some people are chafing at is the determinist overtones in your comments. You seem less concerned with China developing or how it has developed as you are emphasizing that China and everyone should recognize Western culture as better.

            I don’t think that’s healthy.

    • http://thecapitalinthenorth.blogspot.com I live in China

      it is a huge exageration to say that women are actually second class citizens. You should try and visit a place like Egypt where they really are. Most of the things you talk about, like corruption and sexism, are the same or much worse in most of the non-Western world. Go anywhere from Bangladesh to Nigeria and you will realize.

      The Western world, on the other hand, has other problems. Like someone else has pointed out, the USA especially has a ridicolously high crime rate for such a prosperous society, which points to a breakdown in morality as well. And when it comes to racism and xenophobia, yes there is some prejudice against the Uyghurs, but really it’s not that bad, and certainly racism in China is no worse then anywhere else.

  • hobo

    hahaha, Americans are brainwashed far more than any Chinese. At least the Chinese people know their system sucks, they just learn to deal with it.

    Corruption: so instead of fat, corrupt politicians in China sucking the life of the ordinary people, you have fat, corrupt bankers and CEO’s doing the exact same thing. Big difference, at least the politicians will occasionally give the people a few scraps to feed on.

    Lying cheating, etc: You show me one human being who hasnt lied or cheated in his/her life and i’ll show you a Pusan playa who hasnt got his head shoved up his ass.

    Racism: The way native americans, australian aborigines and other native tribes were treated really set a great example of racial integration to the rest of the world. Oh and slavery as well.

    Position of women: I could be a nomadic Mongolian whos never watched TV in my life, turn on a TV and watch MTV for 5 minutes before I come to the conclusion about if women are objectified or not. But hey, at least they’re getting around in bikinis now, not trapped in corsets! Freedom!!! Progress!!!

    Hypocrisy : nobody will EVER EVER beat the “West” on this. Take a dump on the rest of the world through your own greed, cover it all up, pretend it never happened to make it all rainbows and sunshine, pat yourselves on the back and give out Nobel peace prizes. Then you can actually say the people you shitted on have no morals???

  • hobo

    Americans. For all your alleged democracy and freedom, tell me what your democratic right did to prevent the people responsible for causing the global financial crisis from receiving billion dollar bonuses anyway.

    That’s right, NOTHING. Because the banks run your country and there’s nothing you can do about it. Bankers are a even high level of scum than Chinese politicians.

    • devil’s advocate

      At least Americans have the right to discuss said issue without fear of retribution from politicians.

      • InstantNoodles

        But people discuss and discuss, yet the officials and large corporation owners just let most of it go in one ear and fall out the other. Once in a while they do some minor things to show they are listening.

        There was an old classmate whose father was a rep for his electoral district. He used to be a rural area doctor, and joined politics hoping to help improve healthcare in said areas. He told us in a roundabout way while acting as a guide for our field trip, that after a few years he kind of stopped trying.

        One of the largest tech companies where I live fell from grace from false accounting and internal corruption. Many people lost their jobs. Yet all the new CEOs appointed to “fix” it just racked more money for themselves. Before long only a skeleton was left despite government payout. Before that skeleton was divided up between interested buyers, the higher management denied laid off workers their compensation packages, and at the same time magically found extra money for their own bonuses. The court said it was legal.

        For a moment I thought I was back in China, for surely a government elected by the people and watched by the people, a government that is willing to let its people speak and listen to their plights wont’ do something so blatant. But sadly I wasn’t.

        Good thing there are still people like the rural doctor in his younger days around. Even if their spirit and enthusiasm can only last so long before burning out, they can at least delay this society from regressing.

  • Chris

    >> This chicken egg tastes really awful.

    LOLz, I liked this one. I have had quite a few conversations in China that went along these lines…

  • outcast

    “It would still need to be proved to me that Chinese are always more dishonest than Westerners. It’s possible that some of what we perceive as deception is actually more of a negotiation tactic (particularly with lies that are obviously and demonstrably false).”

    I never said always. But, we can start with rampant academic corruption and go from there

    http://www.china.org.cn/china/opinion/2009-09/01/content_18442593.htm

    “In those cases of real deception, stealing, and fakery, which I admit are prevalent, I think that the social problem stems more from things like lack of resources, inefficient government, and lack of effective law enforcement … not some lack of cultural values.”

    Where is it taught anywhere in China that honesty is important? Whenever there is that kind of a vacuum, dishonesty is what comes in to fill the void.

    [quote]How about Chinese people? [/quote]

    They can’t be trusted. If they had their way, Deng Xiao Ping’s economic reforms would never have been allowed to happen, since it was heavily opposed by the public until relatively recently.

    “What right to we have to tell them how they should develop. And what’s more, if you really think that this massive cultural change is necessary, what are you willing to do to make it happen? ”

    First I have to improve my standing and level of success. Often the more successful a person is, the more willing people are to listen to him or her.

    I dont actually think China should adapt many aspects of western culture, like religion. I have my own view on how the future should be.

    “People will not give up everything they grew up with just like that, not without use of force. Would you suggest we invade China and subjugate it, making these problems worse to make them better?”

    I’d have to say that assertion was proven to be incorrect by the cultural revolution. The very reason it failed was because it used force instead of education.

    “And we know from history that asking Chinese to abandon their culture usually results in a backlash (ex: Franciscan and Dominican Catholics asking Chinese Christians to stop ancestor worship vs the softer approach of the Jesuits).”

    Considering the Chinese belief in their culture’s inherent superiority at the time, it is no wonder it didn’t work. But in reality they were just asking the chinese christians to give up one set of superstitious nonsense for another.

    “Ultimately I think China does need political reforms that put more power in the hands of the people and to increase rule of law,”

    Rule of law is completely contrary to chinese traditional culture, it is a western idea.

    In any case, putting more power in the hands of a people who generally can’t think for themselves is always a bad idea. In addition to being highly superstitious, chinese people will believe in just about every urban legend and rumor they can get their hands on. No critical thinking capabilities at all. Is it any wonder then that chinese academia is infested with psuedoscience? Unless sweeping changes are made, western countries wont have to worry about the scientific front of the so called “china threat”.

    “These would help with many of the problems you cite — reducing crime by making people feel they don’t need to lie and steal to survive, reducing economic frustration that often leads to domestic violence, and helping reduce corruption through law enforcement.”

    That may reduce domestic violence a little, but not by as much as you think. South Korea and Japan are good examples of this. The root cause of violence against women in China is culture. Whenever a chinese man becomes successful they almost always have “er nai” or frequent visits to prostitutes. Is there any outrage against this neo-concubinage? Nope, not at all. If a women dares to do the same thing? Vicious beatings (of course the man gets away with it).

    “You asked what should be preserved? What should be wiped out? Would you ask all Chinese to speak English and submit to Western religions and abandon their traditional festivals? All of those things are a part of culture, too, and I don’t see how they would make the culture backward. Would you order books on Confucianism and Legalism burned? What level are you willing to take it to?”

    Western religions are a anachronism from traditional western culture, no one should submit to them. And no, I wont burn books. Suppressing it has been tried before, and failed miserably. Time for a new approach.

    • http://chinadivide.com Kai

      outcast,

      But, we can start with rampant academic corruption and go from there

      And it would degenerate into a pissing contest if we brought up systematic financial and securities fraud amongst Westerners. Your whole premise of trying to prove one people as more dishonest than another is wrong. Dishonesty is dishonesty, worthy of being condemned where it is. But why the rush to associate it with one people over another?

      Where is it taught anywhere in China that honesty is important? Whenever there is that kind of a vacuum, dishonesty is what comes in to fill the void.

      That’s a seriously ignorant and/or dishonest view of the morals and ethics present in Chinese society. Just because anyone violates or compromises certain values or ethics doesn’t mean they don’t hold them. It does mean you may want to ask WHY they feel compelled to violate or compromise them.

      They can’t be trusted. If they had their way, Deng Xiao Ping’s economic reforms would never have been allowed to happen, since it was heavily opposed by the public until relatively recently.

      Where’s the context? Most people, especially the uneducated masses, in the world like the Communist ideal of being guaranteed the basics of life over the uncertainties of capitalism.

      GAC’s point was that self-determinism should be respected. You denied being ethnocentric and yet you’re not explicitly stating that Chinese people should not be trusted to determine their own course in history and that the values you hold should be imposed upon them.

      You do understand that self-determinism is often called a Western value as well, right?

      First I have to improve my standing and level of success. Often the more successful a person is, the more willing people are to listen to him or her.

      I dont actually think China should adapt many aspects of western culture, like religion. I have my own view on how the future should be.

      That’s good, but your comments here don’t seem to reconcile with your comments elsewhere.

      I’d have to say that assertion was proven to be incorrect by the cultural revolution. The very reason it failed was because it used force instead of education.

      No, his assertion is exactly your assertion, that such change came through force (though not the education part). Reread it.

      Rule of law is completely contrary to chinese traditional culture, it is a western idea.

      Wrong, patently wrong, rule of law is NOT a “western” idea. Where did you get that nonsense? Rule of law has been an ideal since time immemorial, since man realized it was fairer to abide by objective rules of behavior over subjective whim. What? Never heard of Legalism?

      In any case, putting more power in the hands of a people who generally can’t think for themselves is always a bad idea.

      So you’re not the typical democracy advocate then. That’s fine. There are good arguments and positions echoing your sentiment. However, it sounds like you’re for imperialist dictatorship then?

      In addition to being highly superstitious, chinese people will believe in just about every urban legend and rumor they can get their hands on.

      This is silly. As if a good deal of non-Chinese people don’t? Why would the word “urban legend” even exist if such phenomenon weren’t prolific amongst people in general? Why would Snopes be such a popular reference? I’m seriously not sure if you’re just ignorant or bigoted.

      No critical thinking capabilities at all.

      And just a minute ago you said “I never said ‘always’.”

      That may reduce domestic violence a little, but not by as much as you think. South Korea and Japan are good examples of this. The root cause of violence against women in China is culture. Whenever a chinese man becomes successful they almost always have “er nai” or frequent visits to prostitutes. Is there any outrage against this neo-concubinage? Nope, not at all. If a women dares to do the same thing? Vicious beatings (of course the man gets away with it).

      I think you’re conflating and being selective. The public prevalence of both infidelity and violence against women involves both economics and “culture” (or to use a word less likely to be co-opted for stupidity, “social norms”). Tolerance of infidelity and domestic violence is often a function of the woman’s economic dependence upon the man, and this is true around the world. I’m definitely not saying this is the only factor, but it shouldn’t be dismissed as you’re doing in response to GAC. Instead of examining and trying to figure out the historical circumstances and developments that led to infidelity and violence against women decreasing in the West (at least publicly) but remaining prevalent in the East, you’re rushing to say it is “cultural”. You’re not trying to understand or change, you’re just rushing to judge.

      You’re not an idiot. You know infidelity is condemned in Chinese society as it is elsewhere. That privileged or moneyed people get away with certain things widely condemned by the majority is not unique to China. If the open prevalence of such phenomenon can change in the West, shouldn’t you be looking at what precipitated that change and consider when it might happen for China? Do you want these things to change or do you want them to stay the same so you can maintain your sense of superiority? The vibe I get from you is the latter.

      Western religions are a anachronism from traditional western culture, no one should submit to them.

      And yet the strength of religion in the West has played a huge role in the above issue of infidelity, both as a moral sin and a public shame. You may not advocate religious imperialism, but surely you won’t deny the influence religion has played upon shaping modern Western culture and social norms, will you?

      I don’t think you’ve thought through your position on these things, or how Western society relates to these things.

      • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

        Kai, I so much heart your application of academic thought to Internet troll fights. It’s such fun, isn’t it?

        But yes, you hit most of my argument right on the head. And yes, force can be very effective in changing cultures, look what happened to the most American Indian tribes. The key is that you have to kill a whole helluvalot of people, especially if you’re an invading force, and you have to have such an overwhelming force that the remaining people can be totally subjugated so that you can punish them for being who they are, force them to speak your langauge and wear your clothes and pray to your gods. Yeah, likely not doable in China today — just too many people, but it can be done.

        Only thing I might back up on is that Legalism’s idea of “rule of law” is a little bit different from the Western idea, particularly when regarding the early philosophers who advocated leaders unilaterally making laws and trusting no one. That said, I will agree that pretty much any sufficiently large country has some sort of legal system, otherwise they would be unable to manage their population.

        That’s why self determination and moral relativism is important. It’s not because of some kumbaya “all cultures are equal, we can all do things ourselves,” it’s because feeling that your own culture is superior to another and that said other culture should be abandoned for your own can lead to some pretty nasty things, and ultimately it’s not worth it to try to “reform” everyone. In fact, as Kai pointed out, trying to reform their culture or social norms this way can cause worse problems by not taking into account all the causes of the social problems you are encountering.

        Criticize China or the US or any country all you like. Criticism is a good thing, but hyperbolic ranting is absolutely not helpful in creating positive change in any society, nor is stuck-up, ignorant ethnocentrism.

  • Gaaad!!!

    Depends whether you hit him or not and where you hit him.

    Or he might just turn around and just pick them up. Waste not, want not you see.

  • Somethin Somethin

    If you’re going to use the Warring States period at least pick an appropriate contemporary. The EU is the complex, arduous work of centuries and is a voluntary organization based on economic liberalism. The member states enter to their own benefit in order obtain things in their own interests. The US is relatively similar and uses a relatively similar logic for its cohesion. A generally mono-ethnic state which is clearly holding other ethnic states might find itself in better company with the USSR, Yugoslavia, Hindustan(Pakistan/India), etc. Or might find themselves better off describing the conquest in contemporary terms of the Roman Conquest, The Frankish consolidation under Charlemagne, or the Mongolian Conquest.

  • Master C

    Politicians have dignity, but either intentionally sabotage their fellow citizen or lack understanding of the purpose of their political existence which is to make taxes lower and government less intrusive as each generation arises.

    Prostitute is a term which can be applied to anyone who allows themselves to be used in physical, mental, emotional or spiritual manner to make a living from.

    Dignity is refusal of ‘being employed’ in the above described capacity whatsoever.

    Self employment is dignified. Employers however influence if employees in their company have dignity or not. They can TEACH the employee by the company culture what they espouse – disregarding the issue of efficiency or how hard an employee works, a good employer will hire individuals willing to stand up for themselves because he has principles, a bad employer will hire yes-men. Similarly with governments . . .

    A good employer will understand that in the larger scheme of things, the wealth of the world belongs to all mankind.

    Dignity for the flesh selling prostitutes however has always been a non-issue. Excepting the minority in the BDSM scene, the last thing anyone needs is a prostitute demanding anything – much less dignified treatment. Getting personally involved or attributing dignity to it is just meaningless.

    To remind, sex is a skill set requiring no formal training or cash investment and thus does not deserve any more than what a blue collar worker gets for minimum wage.

    A sex worker deserves no more than a comfortable retirement at most to retain social structure and charges should reflect that. But when a blue collar job is shunned in preference for the Red Light District, we know a nation is near it’s end.

    Sequestering of land which belongs to all citizens by government instead of equitable distribution or land and resources (Socialism) leads to corruption and prostitution (of course those consensually there will always exist in any case).

    There will in time be a new paradigm of wealth distribution eventually and all responsible governments must begin studying wealth distribution issues in earnest – the wealth of a nation belongs to all citizens, the wealth of the world belongs to all humanity.

    Down with the plutocrat, down with the political family oligarchs and their shadow bureaucrat elite networks !

    http://mk-mk.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36665503866

  • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

    Ahm, I think sex workers should at least be able to get to a point where they can demand the use of condoms and some medical care. That’s one of the problems with it being illegal in so many places.

    Also, I think you underestimate the amount of skill that can be applied to sex.

  • Zhegezhege

    Wow, Master C, that prostitute thing really got you going.

    So, if I was to say:

    Wumao = prostitute

    Would that annoy you?

  • Master C

    No it didn’t. No it wouldn’t. There’s no context applied in your usage of ‘Wumao’ being equated to prostitute at the moment?

  • Master C

    Use of condoms and medical care yes. But show me the cost invested in an education for a prostitute and lets decide how much they should earn. If an average degree holder earns 2-5K a month after 3 years of study and 50-300K of expenditure and 5-50K after 20 years on the workforce, I’d say a prostitute who spent ZERO cash on education and ZERO time studying deserves just minimum wage and should not even expect anything beyond what the same degree holder earns for those who are exceptional in appearance.

    Only a fool would pay to elevate an uninvested/untrained person to the the wealth level of upper classes by acceding to ludicrous fees for providing something that could just as easily be obtained for free amongst one’s casual acquaintances.

    Prostitutes provide a service for the less well socialised or those without immediate access to sexual outlets, but certainly do not deserve THAT much more than heavily invested in, skilled people who in fact actually contribute far much more to the maintenance of society than indulging libidos.

    Like them, and treat them well, legalize too, but DO NOT ENRICH them like that. It’s a sinful waste when people are starving and an insult to everyone else who deserves a comfortable retirement. Also if overpaid, this kills the blue collar industry by upstaging production line wages.

  • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

    I will admit that I see problems in Chinese society. What I was pointing out that there are problems in other societies as well, and the situation in China is not as bad as you suggest. I will admit I may have had a different experience with regards to racism being a white American.

    But you still have not convinced that Chinese morality is fundamentally flawed or nonexistant. I have known many Chinese who are quite nice, friendly people who weren’t trying to steal from me or hurt me. I’m for Chinese or any culture (including my own) being open to foreign ideas, but it would be a mistake to abandon much of their culture for a foreign model. China tried that with Communism — and I don’t think anyone expected how that would work out.

  • outcast

    The numbers speak for themselves as to “how bad it is”.

    I’m also going to point out a couple of other things I missed earlier:

    1.) Kidnapping for debt collection is commonplace. Even though it is illegal, the police dont care, and often times are in on it. source: http://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/05/how_not_to_get_kidnapped_in_ch.html

    2.) I’m going to extend my previous assertion about wife beating being a spectator sport and add to it that beating any kind of female is a spectator sport. Look here (http://www.chinahush.com/2009/08/16/female-college-graduate-beaten-and-killed-in-busy-street-over-dispute/), there was a female graduate student who was beaten to death in broad daylight in front of a crowd. What does the crowd do? NOTHING.

    “China tried that with Communism — and I don’t think any­one expected how that would work out.”

    Actually communism fit very well with traditional ways of thinking, because it created a system where everyone doesn’t think for themselves and is subservient to the state, as well as a system that doesn’t change. But actually a lot of people did expect it to work out the way it did (massive famine) because that is exactly how it turned out under Stalist Russia. Communism was simply a bad idea, no matter where it was implemented.

    “But you still have not con­vinced that Chinese moral­ity is fun­da­men­tally flawed or nonex­is­tant. I have known many Chinese who are quite nice,”

    And I’m sure that some of them are. But if you live with them long enough you’ll see their intense dishonesty, especially with eachother.

    “I’m for Chinese or any cul­ture (includ­ing my own) being open to for­eign ideas, but it would be a mis­take to aban­don much of their cul­ture for a for­eign model.”

    I find that to be an interesting statement considering that we ourselves abandoned much of our traditional culture. The only difference is we weren’t so philisophically bankrupt that we couldn’t come up with new ideas.

    I’ll ask you a question, what do you think should be preserved, and who should decide what should be preserved? In Japan they kept most of their culture intact, and the result is the highest suicide rate of all the developed countries, rampant spousal abuse, little to no women’s rights, extreme conformity pressure, rampant corruption, and a general inability to make meaningful changes of any sort leaving them with an economy thats been stagnant for 19 years and a society that is mostly trapped in the 1950’s. And what of innovation? There’s very little that is fundementally new that has come out of Japan. Nations that produce followers on the scale of Japan inevitably become followers. Look at Japan now, it is dying a slow death. Do you want this to happen to China? Do you want the low quality of life that is forced onto its people to continue in China? Because if it doesn’t ditch it’s traditions, that is exactly what will happen.

  • http://gacorley.wordpress.com GAC

    “Actually com mu nism fit very well with tra di tional ways of think­ing, because it cre ated a system where every one doesn’t think for them selves and is sub servient to the state, as well as a system that doesn’t change.”

    Alright, Communism wasn’t a great example there. Though when China has copied something, they did put their own spin on it. Mao didn’t get along with the Soviets precisely because his communism was different from theirs.

    However much of Chinese society today still is selfish, but I think that has more to do with political structure and lack of resources, as I cite below.

    “And I’m sure that some of them are. But if you live with them long enough you’ll see their intense dis hon esty, especially with each other.”

    It would still need to be proved to me that Chinese are always more dishonest than Westerners. It’s possible that some of what we perceive as deception is actually more of a negotiation tactic (particularly with lies that are obviously and demonstrably false).

    In those cases of real deception, stealing, and fakery, which I admit are prevalent, I think that the social problem stems more from things like lack of resources, inefficient government, and lack of effective law enforcement … not some lack of cultural values.

    “I’ll ask you a ques tion, what do you think should be pre­served, and who should decide what should be pre served?”

    How about Chinese people? What right to we have to tell them how they should develop. And what’s more, if you really think that this massive cultural change is necessary, what are you willing to do to make it happen? People will not give up everything they grew up with just like that, not without use of force. Would you suggest we invade China and subjugate it, making these problems worse to make them better?

    Ultimately I think China does need political reforms that put more power in the hands of the people and to increase rule of law, and economic develop need to shift focus in a way that narrows the gap between rich and poor and creates social safety nets. These would help with many of the problems you cite — reducing crime by making people feel they don’t need to lie and steal to survive, reducing economic frustration that often leads to domestic violence, and helping reduce corruption through law enforcement.

    Some of these indeed go against the cultural grain, but given China’s long history I’m sure local cultural justifications will be found. And if not: I never said that China should not be open to outside ideas. But telling people to abandon their culture wholesale will not win people over and will not be effective. And we know from history that asking Chinese to abandon their culture usually results in a backlash (ex: Franciscan and Dominican Catholics asking Chinese Christians to stop ancestor worship vs the softer approach of the Jesuits).

    You asked what should be preserved? What should be wiped out? Would you ask all Chinese to speak English and submit to Western religions and abandon their traditional festivals? All of those things are a part of culture, too, and I don’t see how they would make the culture backward. Would you order books on Confucianism and Legalism burned? What level are you willing to take it to?

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