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Say Goodbye to Google China? Chinese Reactions

271 comments by Python on Wednesday, January 13, 2010

The official Google blog released a post on January 12 saying:

Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident–albeit a significant one–was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses–including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors–have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.

Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users’ computers.

…

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered–combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web–have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

This blog post has already been translated into Chinese by a Chinese netizen.

The reasons provided by Google for the closing of their Chinese offices are rather vague if not unpersuasive.

  • Yes, cyber attacks exist in China and some originated from this country, but Google is not the only victim and even its major opponent Baidu recently got DNS hijacked by the so-called “Iranian Cyber Army”.
  • Second, isn’t it Google’s responsibility to utilize all its technical might to protect users’, including human rights activists’, privacy? Saying “we will retreat because some of our users’ email account were monitored” is like admitting their own disadvantage in technical strength and persuading users to switch to other companies.
  • Third, I fail to see why compromise of some users’ computers due to their own lack of sense in internet security is a fault of Google itself: anyone using ANY email system could be hacked if the user acts like a security newbie, and it doesn’t matter where the login portal pages are hosted (I remember Google doesn’t have a data center in China).

Maybe Google and the Chinese government failed to reach an under-the-table deal recently and Google thinks the revenue from China’s 26% search engine market (already larger than the US market in number) doesn’t pay the cost of following local laws and the damage of reputation from “doing evil”? But isn’t the trouble for millions of Chinese users of backing up GMail and other Google service accounts a part of “doing evil” too (if these backups are needed)? And how does Google China settle the eight hundred employees in its Chinese offices?

I really hope this announcement is just a protest (or a joke) from Google to the Chinese government against its protectionist policies and the company will still keep running in China or it’s really the saddest and naivest thing I have ever heard in 2010. Anyway, I will follow this incident and report updates on chinaSMACK in the next few days.

Further readings:

From The Telegraph, “Google threatens to pull out of China “:

After the announcement, Google’s China website immediately began to offer reports and images of the Tiananmen Square massacre and other highly sensitive events that Beijing has suppressed for decades.

Note: I failed to get these “reports and images” from Google.cn when I tried.

UPDATE:

From Xiang Ligang’s Blog (on Sina):

Google’s renouncing its Chinese operations is merely psychological warfare

In the past few days [the Chinese Internet] was filled with big news from search engines. Yesterday, Baidu failed to work for several hours, and then this morning, Google announced on its official blog that it is considering closing its China operations and also the website Google.cn.

I think Google’s announcement is basically a kind of psychological warfare and is unlikely to be implemented, otherwise the losing side is Google and the netizen. However, the majority of Chinese internet users will forget this incident in no more than three months and only few people will remember it occasionally, like ripples on a pool of water.

Google made such a declaration which is related to the conflict between its ideology and management [in China] recently. Since the beginning, Google has not thought of itself as a media, but a search engine, and [Google believes that] search results are technically determined [rendered purely from algorithm] and it [Google] should not be responsible for the management [censorship] of these results. In the United States, if there are contents that affect the image of the leadership and even [result in] personal attacks, Google just makes a statement [won't pull these contents down].

Thus, in the Chinese market, Google has no intention to adjust itself to adapt to the Chinese situation, but in full accordance work along their own ideology [that were discussed on the above paragraph]. Therefore, under the media exposure in the Anti-Pornography campaign, Google could barely handle the situation and had to change its leadership in China. Even in such a situation, Google has been facing the pressure of taking on more management responsibilities [from the government].

On the recent copyright lawsuit with the Writer’s Society, Google didn’t understand [the Chinese writers' appeal] well either. Google’s understanding is, they did not scan all the books nor made them available for readers but barely scanned a portion of the books, which should work as indexes to facilitate readers’ inquiry and learning and even to some extent help the writers increase their books’ publicity. Reaction and impact in the Mainland are things that Google finds hard to understand.

For Chinese people, we think these things from different angles and we will understand varies levels’ [social classes'] feeling, but for Americans, it is difficult to accept [understand].

However, will Google really withdraw from the Chinese market? Personally, I think this is just psychological warfare. For the world and the internet industry, losing China is like missing a huge market. And in the subsequent development of the Internet, for example 3G-related services, there will be a large number of areas that Internet companies must pay attention. Losing the Chinese market will be a major blow to Google’s global strategy and will also affect its future strategic layout [of the global market]. In the long run, its mobile phone [Nexus One], mobile operating system [Android] and other related services will face a big problem.

The most important thing, after quitting the Chinese market, is: Will Google’s relevant departments in China be facing a lot pressure? No department [of Google China] would actually be held accountable. The majority of internet users will not be affected much, while the only suffering ones are Google’s employees [in China]. The result will be that Chinese [companies] become increasingly powerful [have more future market share] in search engines and 3G businesses. Think about it, the day when Google wants to reenter the Chinese market, it will be completely uncompetitive. And if they adopt such a confrontational action [quitting the Chinese market], it’s hard to say how the cooperation between Android and Chinese enterprises will be affected.

I think China and the United States have always been strategic rivals and, at the same time, partners in many areas. For Google it is the same, they must realize that [people in] China and the United States do not feel [think] the same thus they must find more channels to exchange [opinions] and to communicate, and they have to be far-sighted to see through all these [Chinese characteristics]. Quitting is not an attractive option for Google.

Chinese Netizen Reactions

Below I have translated some comments by Chinese netizens about this news and added a poll to ask what you think about what will happen. – Fauna

Comments from KDS:

ThE:

downloadingdownloading

服部半藏:

Now this a big company’s behavior!! In the future I will definitely buy a Google mobile phone to show my approval!! (But it needs to be a bit cheaper).

月色朦胧:

At the time, it was on Google that I/we searched and found Sexy Photos Gate. We cannot not have Google. downloading

小姐侬好:

What use are the [Chinese] netizen masses…American government…hurry and help/support Google…

東京タワー:

2 possible outcomes:
more freedom or no freedom downloading

白兔先生:

Over the past 5 years, I’ve personally always used Google~The name “谷歌” [gu ge] is too “2″ [sha, "stupid"].

root:

Baidu is a puppet downloading, Google finally rises up/stands up! downloading

毛豆子:

NND, no matter who you are, the moment you come to the Celestial Kingdom, you will be castrated.

燃烧の酒精:

When searching for AV girls, I will think of Baidu Baike, but for normal things, I look to Google.

今天不下作:

For this, Google must be supported, fuck, in the future I won’t use Baidu anymore!

RR拖拉机:

I definitely support Google, definitely do not lower your head [bow, give in] to the Celestial Kingdom [Chinese government].

坏掉的鼠標:

iGoogle is my homepage.
Google Reader is my newspaper.
Google Documents is my document editor (and furthermore just today it began to accept any file format for upload).
Google Voice is my communication tool.

Without Google, how do I survive? downloading

Ru.J:

downloading
Shut it down.
TG [The government] already does whatever it wants.
Entering email boxes, deleting the account owners’ emails…
is tantamount to
entering someone else’s company and kicking out the old customers.
They [the company] can no longer do business,
so of course they will want to leave.
I ding you Google.
Your name will go down in history downloading

Poll

Do you believe Google will pull out of China?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...

2010 January 14 ~1:30 UPDATE: There are rumors (or jokes) that Google will help their Chinese employees get American Green Cards but require a 3 year employment contract. — Fauna

2010 January 14 ~13:00 UPDATE: More translations to read… — Fauna

  • “Google Leaving China? Chinese Responses” (ChinaGeeks)
  • “Google China photos: because I’m without words” (CNReviews)
  • “Withdraw?  Google Is Only Throwing A Hissy Fit!” (EastSouthWestNorth)
  • “The Chief Design Officer of Baidu Reacts to Google’s Withdrawal from China” (EastSouthWestNorth)
  • “70% Chinese Internet Users Surveyed Don’t Think The Government Should Make Any Concessions To Google” (EastSouthWestNorth)
  • “Google Leaving?  Is this because they couldn’t adapt, or because they are bitter?” (EastSouthWestNorth)

I am a little suspicious of the Huangqiu poll that says over 70% of Chinese say the Chinese government should not accept conditions from Google. Please note that only ~2000 people participate in that survey question, but more than 17,000 people participate in the other survey questions. Strange?

2010 January 17 ~15:00 UPDATE: More readings. — Python

  • “Clearing Up Confusion on Google and China” (WSJ’s China Real Time Report)
  • Google China changed its logo after the incident. “Google.cn Highlights China’s Great Inventions” (WSJ’s China Real Time Report). Read: EXIT.
  • “China’s puny online ad market, and Google” (Danwei)
  • If you are as curious (and geeky) as I am,  read on “Code Used To Attack Google Now Public” (Slashdot). Google should seriously consider fire its employees who are still using IE6 on Windows XP and hire me.
  • Quote from Kaifu Lee, founder of Google China who left Google last year, on his microblog, “A captain would never run away from his duty, if he knew the ship was sinking.”
  • Keso made a list (Chinese) on Google-gates (scandals) in China. All 19 of them since 2006, from copyright infringement to pornography, to tax evasion, to breaking its promise on earthquake donation.
  • Something hilarious to watch, “What Baidu will look like once Google is gone from China” (Shanghaiist)
  • And an even more hilarious piece translated by ESWN, “The Truth About The Google Affair”.

2010 January 18 ~2:00 UPDATE: – Fauna

2010 January 20 ~11:00 UPDATE: — Python

Google China released a short announcement on their official blog in Chinese. I translated it here on chinaSMACK:

To clarify some untruthful rumors
January 19, 2010 PM 06:03:00
Posted by: Yun Liu and Wenluo Yang

Over the past few days, we have seen a lot untrue rumors about Google China and Google‘s employees: there are reports that we have closed the office in China, and there are some reports that we have employees in China who had recently been notified to leave their jobs. These [rumors] are all untruthful. Currently, Google employees in China are working in the offices as usual, to discuss product development and to communicate with [our] customers. Despite that Google’s executives in the head offices [in Mountain View] recently announced that they will discuss on some matters with the Chinese government in the next few weeks, Google China’s employees are, as always, making an effort to provide our customers and partners with the best products and services, [since] customers and partners are very important to Google.

Not threatening to pull out of China. chinaSMACK personals.

Time to consider a VPN service? Freedur is an advertising sponsor of chinaSMACK and it is what we use. It recently released a new version and additional servers.

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230 Comments

  1. dim mak
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    “When searching for AV girls, I will think of Baidu Baike”

    There’s no AV girls on baidu baike.. wtf is that guy smoking

    And Google would be majorly stupid to pull out of China… think of the profit loss.. I bet they won’t do it in the end.

    Reply
  2. Elaine
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    Wait, I’m a little confused, is this a translation of a blog post or is this Python’s opinion on the Google thing?

    Reply
    • Jens
      Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:04 pm

      Indeed, the same thing came up in my mind first. Especially when I red this:

      “Yes, cyber attacks exist in China and some originated from this country, but Google is not the only victim and even its major opponent Baidu recently got DNS hijacked by the so-called “Iranian Cyber Army”.”

      What kind of strange comparison is that? Every website gets attacked by hackers now and then. The important thing is who is the hacker and why he is doing it.

      It’s just wrong to make a link with iranian hackers. They don’t have anything to do with this.

      Reply
    • Python
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:59 am

      @Elaine

      Sorry for the confusion. The first part is from Google’s blog, then my opinion on this incident, then a translation of Xiang Ligang’s post and finally some reactions from Chinese netizen.

      @Jens

      My point is, hacking through scams and malwares is hugely different from a third-party, Chinese government included, asking for access to a user’s account. The nature of Internet hacking makes it different to identify who the real one behind computer screen is. The hackers who compromised Baidu’s DNS may be or may not be Iranians (or any political parties in Iran). However, what’s more important is whether the targeted company has the technical capability to prevent such compromise happening. In this sense, Google did better than Baidu if what Google reported is faithful, “these accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users’ computers”. I doubt moving Google out of China will make users’ Gmail account much safer since (correct me if I’m wrong) all data centers are already located outside of this country. Making all google.cn pages SSL encrypted should be enough to keep users’ account from monitored so why move out? That’s why I say “unpersuasive”.

      I believe the real reason is, as the Google post says, “combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web”. However, Google didn’t elaborate on what these attempts are. The recent Anti-Pornography campaign? but Google is not the only target. Filtering contents from search results? but that has been implemented for a long while. What’s the straw that breaks the camel’s back? Google may be too polite here, but what’s in the article is definitely vague.

      Google is an enterprise not a political party after all. As the translated Chinese blog post pointed out correctly, quitting China will be a major blow to Google’s global strategy. Even Google wants to live on its motto “doing no evil”, doing something positive though limited is far better than doing nothing.

      Anyway, your and any other commenter’s disagreement to my opinion is always welcome and I thank you for your time posting here.

      Reply
  3. Phil
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    I’m amazed at all the comments supporting Google from all the Chinese netizens, I would have expected a lot of negative comments reacting to a foreign company that doesn’t understand China or a western company trying to impose it’s values but maybe I was being overly cynical.

    I disagree with Python though: “The reasons provided by Google for the closing of their Chinese offices are rather vague if not unpersuasive.”

    No, it was not vague or unpersuasive, Google would not be issuing something on this scale and utterly drastic without proper information and evidence, these people are VERY good at what they do. They kept that information to not directly point fingers at the Chinese government which is a small saving face move.

    Also you’re missing the point Python; Google is considering pulling out not primarily because of security concerns, but because of China’s continuing heavy-handed policies towards censorship which run directly against Google’s practices of open-information. They tried censoring search results for the sake of some, or any exposure in China, a small sacrifice for the greater good, but it’s obvious now the executives don’t believe it’s working or worth it.

    However, in the back of my mind, I do think Google leaving China (if it does happen) is a bit of a defeat, staying in China continuing to provide people freedom of information is a good thing no? Maybe I’m being too positive now…

    Reply
    • Kai
      Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 7:32 pm

      KDS is mostly Shanghainese people. I’d be interested in seeing what might be being said on some other more geographically diverse forums. I have a feeling there will be some meta discussion against Google similar to what you were expecting. That said, I’m going to go with thinking most Chinese will support Google here. The idea of one’s account being hacked is a little too personal, and you’ll see a lot more support from those who actually use Google’s services. Google is still seen as a good alternative to Baidu, which doesn’t have a steller reputation but has compelling services for most Chinese people.

      I don’t think Python said Google’s reasons were unpersuasive. He actually wrote “not unpersuasive”, which would suggest he found them at least reasonable.

      I think Sarah Lacy at TechCrunch has an interesting take on the situation, although one that makes me feel uncomfortable. Prior to reading that, I was pretty sure Google’s not going to make good on its threat. Reading that, though, I’m a bit less sure. Hm.

      Reply
      • hudongqing
        Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 9:02 pm

        Kai,

        Python said “rather vague if not unpersuasive”

        This formulation means Python thinks there’s a case to be made that Google’s reasons are unpersuasive, but acknowledges potential disagreement on that score, and proposes “rater vague” as a stronger claim.

        Python’s analysis is rubbish and not what I come to ChinaSMACK for. I don’t want to see what he/she thinks, I want to know what Chinese netizens think. Its a bit of a shame to drop the ball so badly on such a big story.

        China has been really overstepping the mark on internet sensorship all last year. The “anti-porn” campaign they’ve been on is a complete scam. I really despise this aspect of China, which is a shame because there are so many things that are great (or have potential to be great) there.

        Reply
        • Kai
          Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 10:21 pm

          Hey hudongqing,

          I admire your semantic analysis. Maybe I was giving Python too much benefit of the doubt. I think we can agree that he recognizes that Google’s reasons can be persuasive (to certain people).

          Like you, I enjoy chinaSMACK for being low commentary. That said, both Python and Fauna did provide good translations that cover a range of opinions and thoughts by Chinese netizens. I don’t know if I’d say they dropped the ball “so badly”.

          I don’t know if I’d say China has been “overstepping the mark on internet censorship” mainly because I don’t think there was a mark in the first place, right? LoL, but I do think the Chinese government is liable to do what it can get away with on what it cares about and something or another has come to a head here with the possible outcomes being very frustrating for me to consider. The more I read, the more pissed I am.

          That said, as I mentioned above, I think both Western and Chinese suggestions that this may be less about censorship and more about business performance are worth considering. That actually pisses me off even more.

          I agree with you with much of the anti-porn campaign that China has ostensibly been carrying out over the past year. A lot of the plays they’ve made are so questionable as to be called obvious bullshit.

          Back to Google, I’m still hoping this somehow blows over or resolves more or less amicably without much changing (though less censorship would be a fucking coup). I still believe a censored Google is still doing more good in China than no Google.

          This situation sucks.

          Reply
          • Phil
            Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 1:50 am

            I think I expected more viewpoints like Python’s who are less supportive of Google’s actions which is why the positive comments surprise me.

            I don’t think Python’s analysis is rubbish however, just that I respectfully disagree :)

            And yes, I also think that a censored Google does more good than no Google at all.

            But the anti-porn campaign and recently Baidu’s remarks make me sick to me stomach.

            -Phil

          • hudongqing
            Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 6:54 am

            Thanks Kai,

            I agree the translations part of the post is really quite good, and since this is one of my favorite blogs I probably should’ve hedged my comments a bit. I guess I overstated my position since this sort of thing (censorship) tends to make my blood boil and it was already quite late where I am (this is a response to Phil as well, who called me down a bit for overstating).

            Baidu’s comments are atrocious. As someone who has spent a lot of time in China and most of the last 10 years studying China, I think these comments are very arrogant and self serving. I can see I’ll be having a lot of arguments with my Chinese friends about this (although many of them will just make my own points more forcefully).

            A censored Google should be better than no Google, but Google has other options. It could, for instance, move its Chinese language operations to Taiwan or Singapore. It would lose the .cn, but I don’t really know what benefit that has anyway. It may be subject to blanket cnesorship if it takes this option (ala BBC etc) but it doesn’t have to drop out of service provision to Chinese people completely, just because it ceases operations within China.

            As for the business angle – this is kind of the same thing as the moral angle for Google. Its come down to a complaint that operating according to their principles is becoming unviable.

          • Kai
            Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 8:50 pm

            hudongqing,

            No one thinks Google is threatening to drop service for all Chinese just because it ceases operations in China. It’s a given that Chinese service will continue for all the Chinese-language users around the world such as Taiwan and Singapore. The issue is that they’d lose the world’s largest internet audience and market if they’re completely blocked out of China.

            Having 18-35% penetration into the Chinese market and fighting for more is still a foothold to do SOMETHING in the undetermined future. Nixon engaged China for the same reason, because communicating, having a presence, being there, being involved, offering something, competing, is better than trying to ignore each other.

            Of course, Google isn’t obligated to do that if it doesn’t make business sense. It’s a company, not a NGO or even a government. But if the business angle (that they’re not winning, that they’re not making enough money, that they’re not doing well in China) is true — and I don’t think its that similar to the moral angle (we can’t accept censorship) — the reason it pisses me off even more is because I don’t like the idea of Google using a moral/ethical reason to hide a business reason. It’s manipulative and deceitful. It also means Chinese netizens not only loses the value Google brings to them, they lose their faith in what Google represents (whether or not Google wants to represent anything at all).

            Remember, Google argued to stay in China before, argued that censored Google is still better than no Google, that some choice for some difference is still better than no choice. So I definitely hope there isn’t some hidden business reason that’s the real impetus behind this.

        • Yongzhou
          Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:17 am

          “Python’s analysis is rubbish and not what I come to ChinaSMACK for. I don’t want to see what he/she thinks, I want to know what Chinese netizens think.”

          I completely agree with the second sentiment here. The whole reason I come to this site is the lack of editorializing, rubbish or not.

          Reply
          • hudongqing
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 6:54 am

            Kai,

            I understand your sentiment about the business angle, but I still disagree. Google takes business ethics very seriously and they are basically saying that if they can’t do business while maintaining their business ethics then they wont do business.

            Of course this is not purely about defending email accounts or providing unfiltered search. Google is sick of the longer term harassment from the Chinese government that requires Google to take responsibility for the content of their search results. They’re basically fed up with kowtowing and decided not to do it anymore.

          • Kai
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 3:11 pm

            hudongqing,

            I’m fine with Google not doing business if they can’t do business while maintaining their business ethics. The question is then, why did they do it in the first place?

            Fine, they reconsidered, but it doesn’t exactly make them look good and, more importantly, suspicions of possible real motivations should be expected. I’ll point you over to Julen at Chinayouren for his ongoing list of possible explanations, some being pretty amusing.

            Overall, I know what Google is saying in their public announcement (hacking, censorship, etc.), but what a lot of people and I are trying to figure out is the real reason(s) behind the reason given publically. There may not be one, but I’m not yet convinced of that.

            Remember, they’re susceptible to hacking whether they are in China or not. And if they’re sick of harassment from the Chinese government, kowtowing, or whatever, they’re still going against their earlier arguments of providing a service to Chinese netizens and they’re now throwing Chinese netizens under the bus. Of course, they’re allowed to change their minds, but as you acknowledged, it rightfully upsets me.

            I do think the way they’re portraying this as Google vs. the Chinese government is going to win kudos from the rest of the world, but this is going to hurt the Chinese netizens more than it helps the rest of the world. I personally feel the harm this will do is greater than the good it will do, UNLESS there is some angle that hasn’t yet been revealed.

      • sascha
        Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 9:32 pm

        I was also surprised by the reaction — where i am in chengdu the vast majority of netizens supported Google’s actions and actually had a *great* time checking out all of the previously blocked sites. This was a brilliant move because netizens 1) respect ANYONE that stands up to the oppressive government, because its not easy to do so 2) would truly enjoy and appreciate unlocking blocked sites 3) would respect ANYONE who shows a that principle and honoer actually mean something.

        IN this society (and many many others) principles are thrown to the wind in favor of profit and we all whine about it because we know its not right, so now, when a very large company finally shows that there is another way to do things, we should support them. Otherwise we deserve whatever we get. Word is Bond.

        Peep http://www.chengduliving.com/google-prepared-to-leave-china/

        we were there first ;) (after NYT hahaha)

        Reply
        • Inst
          Friday, January 15, 2010 at 7:38 am

          I’m wondering about the accuracy of your statement, since Google’s censorship is based on Chinese government censorship in that they use a server to check what sites are blocked by the GFW. Google simply doesn’t list GFW-blocked results. If Google dropped their censorship, the Chinese web user would simply reach a “The Connection to the Server Has Been Reset” Page. If the Chinese web user tried to access the page via Google cache, keyword filters should activate and the user would be similarly blocked.

          Reply
          • Dr. Jones Jr.
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 5:05 pm

            Well, at the very least it opened up a partial window on the blocked results. Example: I checked out Google.cn’s image search last night. There were several pictures from Tiananmen Sq ’89, including ‘Tank Man’, but I couldn’t access the site the picture was being drawn from. On the word search portion, there were many topics ‘What happened…’, etc. I didn’t check them out thoroughly, but I’m guessing many of them were sites that are indeed blocked by GFW despite users being able to at least see some text in the search results.

          • Inst
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 11:06 pm

            Actually, I checked that back on the 9th to show to friends on the states and at least one tank man picture showed up on an English-language search of Tiananmen on google.cn.

          • Inst
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 11:08 pm

            http://images.google.cn/images?hl=zh-CN&source=hp&q=%E5%9D%A6%E5%85%8B%E4%BA%BA&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

            In any case they aren’t obeying the “relevant laws and regulations” of the target country right now. If they list blogspot, their censor’s off because blogspot is censored at least by my ISP.

  4. Jay K
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Google time to grow some balls and stand up!

    Reply
  5. PUSAN PLAYA
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    This is what this is all really about

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/technology/07yahoo.html

    “WASHINGTON, Nov. 6 (AP) — Two top Yahoo officials on Tuesday defended their company’s role in the jailing of a Chinese journalist but ran into withering criticism from United States lawmakers who accused them of complicity with an oppressive Communist regime.

    “While technologically and financially you are giants, morally you are pygmies,” Tom Lantos, Democrat of California and chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said angrily after hearing from the two executives, Jerry Yang, the chief executive, and Michael J. Callahan, the general counsel.

    The journalist Shi Tao was sent to jail for 10 years for engaging in pro-democracy efforts deemed subversive after Yahoo turned over information about his online activities as requested by Chinese authorities.”

    Google is probably being forced to give the PRC intelligence services access to the email accounts of dissidents and it can’t reveal this fact without breaking Chinese law. Google is a huge company that has nearly monopolised internet advertising in many parts of the world, they’re already on the verge of antitrust action in the US. If the American people start to see them as Red Chinese collaborators, they’ll lose all political support from people like Tom Lantos they’ll risk billions of dollars in fines or even being broken up like what almost happened to Microsoft.

    Reply
    • Teacher in China
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 8:29 am

      I’m with you on that one Playa. THere’s got to be another reason for them pulling out. I’ve read a few other stories on the interwebs, and some of what other people are suggesting seems unlikely. For example, they’re pulling out because they’re losing to Baidu. Being #2 in a country with so many people and such a huge growth potential is like being #1 anywhere else in the world. Why would they throw all that away, unless it was something really serious?

      Reply
  6. Vic
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    GOOD! money isnt everything , google doesnt believe in allowing censors and hackers to track down human rights activists, google is finally doing the right thing! You can’t buy honor, more companies should keep their values in check and not be tempted to sell their souls for the big red market .. Will chinese users be the big losers, of course , that’s the point, now you all can ask yourself if you agree OR NOT with your leader’s (puppet master’s) point of view and what needs to be changed

    Reply
    • MD
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:00 pm

      Man… If all Chinese get free access to information, the entire country will become chaotic, riots and social unrest everywhere, government risks collapsing and the entire PLA will be send in for a nationwide massacre… China will shut down its internet and became a closed country like North Korea… All that thanks to GOOGLE… (Ur welcome)…

      Reply
  7. AC
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    If China wants to participate in a global econ it should play by internationally accepted ethical standards. Google is making the right move here by exposing these dubious actions and outlining consequences.
    IPR is next!!!

    Reply
  8. PUSAN PLAYA
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    Is there tension between Iran and China or not? I do know there’s tension between Pakistan and Iran over Balochistan and terrorists and stuff and that China is a close Pakistani ally but otherwise I’m not really sure.

    Reply
  9. Gaz
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    Did you miss the point that they are pulling out due to CENSORSHIP?

    And the Chinese blogger is full of crap and poorly researched.

    “Therefore, under the media exposure in the Anti-Pornography campaign, Google could barely handle the situation and had to change its leadership in China.”

    You mean the FAKE news report?
    And you mean the director that quite due to pressure from the communist party?

    “For Chinese people, we think these things from different angles and we will understand varies levels’ [social classes'] feeling, but for Americans, it is difficult to accept [understand].”

    Yeah, right, your different angles all involve “do EXACTLY as I say or I’ll shut you down” Good work, d!ckhead.

    Reply
  10. Chinglish
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    if you learn much about china’s history,you’ll find that changing of a dynasty needs 3 hundred years.so since the foundation of people’s republic in 1949,every thing will be hao 200 years later.google china now are the same as baidu,if you type into “六四” you’ll know why.if google really stops its service or shut its office in mainland,i will not sigh.baidu is another google china.what im worrying is that if google quit from china,baidu will not have its arch rival.in another words,that’s another kind of “trade protectionism”.

    Reply
  11. VeerLeft
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Good info Playa. That is also an interesting angle. Either way, I live in China and this would be a severe inconvenience. As for Google ‘growing balls’ and withdrawing…I don’t want them to leave at all but if it is to be , then let it be.
    Slowly but surely this regime will collapse and go the way of all ‘regimes’ that are built on deceit and paranoia.

    Reply
  12. Joe #2
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    This has nothing to do with that hack of Baidu, to my knowledge. I really don’t know who is behind that. However, I do know that there have been many politically-motivated hacks against, for example, Tibetan protesters. The metadata and similar traces indicate that people connected to the Chinese government were responsible. The sheer scope of the attacks (of which the referenced attack below is just one of many) indicate that it’s not just one or two kids with free time on their hands.

    I should know. I’m one of those computer security geeks who are always discussing things like this. Lest someone say that I just want to pick on China, I should mention that the US does plenty of questionable things, too. For example, they monitor pretty much all of our internet traffic on some level, likely including some sort of keyword mining (remember when they talked about increases in “terrorist chatter”? yeah, you’re probably looking at systems which scan for keywords generating that information). And they have a neat trick where we’re allowed to spy on *foreigners* if not citizens… So you partner with, say, New Zealand. If each of you spy on the foreigners in the other country, then share the data, you can get all the same information without breaking any laws. What I’m trying to say is that, no, I don’t excuse this sort of crap just because the US does it. I protest this sort of thing no matter who is doing it.

    As for what Google hopes to accomplish, I can only guess. I would think that they’re trying to shame someone into something, but I have no idea if that will even work. Or maybe they’ll just leave China. I don’t know. Maybe they’re about to get kicked out of China and want to get their story out first? I have no clue. If there’s anything big behind it, though, watch wikileaks dot org. They usually get the big news early.

    References on hacking believed to be sponsored by the Chinese government (I had more, but the forum thought the original post was too “spammy” thanks to those):
    * http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001406.html
    * http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4259544.html

    Reply
  13. Somethin Somethin
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    If they’re ever gonna give into taking down a piece of the wall it was always gonna be because a Google said this is bullshit and threatened with a massive loss in face, dollars, and progress. I don’t know if it’s the right thing in terms of bottom line, but it certainly makes me wanna close my yahoo account and follow that Chinese Blogster and buy a Google Phone, a Google OS, shit it makes me wanna have a fucken Google themed wedding.

    Reply
  14. MBC
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    is blogger.com still blocked in China?

    Reply
  15. kei
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    This isn’t Google making a moral stand. They tried to play ball with the Chinese government, but now they’ve realized it doesn’t make sense to do business there. Here’s why:

    * Reputation risk. They were willing to take the black eye of censoring themselves, but they won’t tolerate security breaches that make their system look unreliable everywhere. This one incident is just what we’ve heard about, surely there is more fucked up shit going on that’s not public.
    * Low upside. Google isn’t making any money in China, and Chinese people will probably prefer a Chinese copy to any new product Google promotes in the future.
    * Rule of law. Even if Google somehow manages to create a money-making product, they can’t trust the Chinese government to not take it away. The government is not very fond of foreigners making money in China, and they’re not afraid to change the rules to screw them over.
    * The China story. China may become the next super power. (Most of Reddit seems to think so.) Or issues like the reasons above may prevent it from becoming a sustainable modern economy. (Most traders I’ve heard talk about it think so.) No one knows, and there are arguments for either side. It’s possible the guys in charge at Google have swung from a positive to a negative view on the outlook of the Chinese economy as a whole, so that doing business there is no longer a priority.

    Google’s decision should still be applauded. But don’t kid yourself that Google is walking away from big profits to make a point.

    Reply
  16. Anon
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    China is treating Google as if it were one of its citizens. China thinks it can bully Google into doing whatever it wants. In China they may be able to go into someone’s house and take what they want, but Google is not a chinese citizen and the government will finally realise that it can’t always do as it pleases in such an unfair manner.

    Reply
    • Elmo
      Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 9:43 pm

      LOL they don’t care, they’ve protected their market by pushing a competitor out. Do you honestly think that a government like China would care about a company like google?

      Considering the amount of MNCs that have attempted to capitalise on developing countries via cheap labour or one sided bargainings. This is probs one of the recent cases where a huge MNC was pushed out of a country rather than establishing a foothold. Microsoft, which has kept its mouth shut will undoubtedly once again be better off long term.

      Reply
  17. LOLZ
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    Heh, I am not surprised at the Chinese netizens or the Laowais reactions.

    For the most part Chinese netizens are anti-censorship. That doesn’t necessarily conflict with their conservative nature, it support it. I remember reading an interview with the hacker who hacked the Australia movie festival because it paraded some uighur propaganda. The hacker said that he was actually afraid of the Chinese government censoring him. If you read the news Chinese government doesn’t only censor its critics, but also the extremist fenqings on the right as well.

    I am also not surprised at the Laowais reaction. They don’t see anything wrong with 300 million netizens lose a valuable search engine. All they care about their silly little ideologies which they themselves don’t even live up to and saving face. Except for the very few astute ones, the general attitude is something like “Oh this is great, Google sure showed the Chinese who is the boss”. These idiots missed the point: How the fuck will that help anyone or anything? There will be only more censorship in China, the Chinese government will continue to employ hackers to hack into email accounts, and less competition means less innovation for everyone.

    Reply
    • Magnator
      Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 10:59 pm

      dude, someone has to do something to stop China from controling its citizens like slaves. China political system MUST change. Freedom is an illusion even in US and in China is even worse. WAKE UP!

      Reply
      • Kai
        Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:23 pm

        One battle at a time, soldier. The main thing here is that Google leaving China makes a strong statement, but it doesn’t do much, much less guarantee, any good for the Chinese citizens. There are going to be people who are happy with that statement, but aside from their personal validation, how does this help the Chinese people? The only hope — and everyone with two brain cells knows this is a long-shot — is that this statement is so powerful that it’ll compell the Chinese people to demand and obtain change from the government. That’s not a good bet to make, because whereas Chinese do feel strongly about censorship, they feel strongly about a lot of other things too. Betting on revolution is always a hail mary play…that almost always fails.

        There are potential benefits and upsides here, perhaps for Google, for Baidu, for the censors, but I don’t see them for the Chinese people.

        Some more good reading: http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/01/first_reactions_on_google_and.php

        Reply
    • Kai
      Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:11 pm

      am also not surprised at the Laowais reaction. They don’t see anything wrong with 300 million netizens lose a valuable search engine. All they care about their silly little ideologies which they themselves don’t even live up to and saving face. Except for the very few astute ones, the general attitude is something like “Oh this is great, Google sure showed the Chinese who is the boss”. These idiots missed the point: How the fuck will that help anyone or anything? There will be only more censorship in China, the Chinese government will continue to employ hackers to hack into email accounts, and less competition means less innovation for everyone.

      Thank you.

      Reply
    • Teacher in China
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 8:47 am

      One thing about businesses is that they are always thinking about the bottom line. Google can say whatever it wants about moral high ground, but the fact remains that what they are doing must somehow go back to money. If they feel that that their reputation is being tarnished elsewhere in the world because of their involvement in China, then they have to weigh which decision would yield the biggest loss. Will people in the rest of the world stop buying their products, or will they “lose all political support from people like Tom Lantos they’ll risk billions of dollars in fines or even being broken up like what almost happened to Microsoft” (Pusan Playa)? If so, then pulling out makes sense.

      Even though he gets nutty at the end of it, talking about applause and all, this guy http://scobleizer.com/2010/01/12/why-now-google/ makes a pretty good point about the future of the market in China being so huge, that it seems odd that the company would pull out now, just because of some tarnish to their reputation. Unless of course that tarnish could result in something that could cause the shutdown of the company or some other insanely huge loss.

      It’s definitely going to be interesting following this for a while, as I’m sure we’re not hearing the full story just yet (and maybe we never will).

      Reply
      • BBC
        Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:39 am

        Nowt to do with market share, global perceptions that Google are giving in (they did that long ago) or the privacy of human rights campaigners. The most significant issue is that Google have implied in their blog that “hackers” within China have gone into their code repository and stolen IP. What this means is that there are moles either working for Google China who is leaking the code to the Chinese govt., or someone posing as Chinese workers and going there to steal code.

        Either way, IP is a big deal for any tech company, and Google as a result is pulling out (or just restricting Google China to out of date content) to minimise technology losses.

        Reply
        • Teacher in China
          Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:46 am

          Interesting idea, but I still find it hard to believe that they would throw away such a huge opportunity to make money not only now but for the next 100 years just because of hackers. If the issue were JUST hackers, there would have been a ton of other ways they could have dealt with that other than go to the extreme of completely pulling out of the country.

          Reply
          • BBC
            Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:08 am

            It’s not just about one hack, but tons happening all the time. Imagine – you’re Google, you’re making new tech every day, but every day, that same new tech has been stolen. Constant attacks on their servers not only hamper development, they completely lose revenues.

            One thing I forgot to mention are the IP laws – obviously Google would not pull out if they could see improvement, but considering that IP theft has actually gotten worse in China over time with the laws offering no sign of improvement, I believe they are shouting “foul play” and realising they can’t do any better in the future.

          • Teacher in China
            Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:44 am

            I see what you’re saying, except that there’s no mention in Google’s blog about this happening “every day”. They referred only to “mid-December”, suggesting that they’re particularly pissed about one set of attacks.
            Do you have some other information from somewhere to suggest that this has been a regularly recurring incident?

          • Kai
            Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:15 pm

            It’s not about the hacking. The recent hacking attempt is, at best, just something that pushed Google over the edge. What put Google near the edge in the first place? It’s not the hacking. Google is susceptible to hacking no matter what. It isn’t as if them leaving China (or forcing China to make them leave) will suddenly protect them from hacking. They will still be hacked, whether it is for IP theft, persecution of human rights activists, or shits and giggles.

    • Zuo Ai
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:33 pm

      “These idiots missed the point: How the fuck will that help anyone or anything? There will be only more censorship in China, the Chinese government will continue to employ hackers to hack into email accounts, and less competition means less innovation for everyone.”

      wow, can I borrow your time machine for a sec buddy? I wanna get the lotto numbers. You must be rich btw

      Reply
  18. Papito
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    Can anyone help me point out the connection between being “cyber-attacked” and threatening to remove the censoring from your search engine?

    Reply
    • mybestguess
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:31 am

      This is how I see it. Google’s message isn’t specifically saying that they were breached by the government, but it’s what they’re implying. (This article says the GFW accessed someone’s email: http://www.chinahush.com/2010/01/13/gmail-security-breach-want-some-proof/)

      So here’s the connection. Google is angry about this breach, and instead of saying “Don’t do that China! We’re leaving you!” They are making China leave them. By uncensoring google, google is saying that they aren’t going to play by China’s rules anymore. Now China has to block them rather than google just closing the website.

      Reply
  19. Papito
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    People laying flowers at Google China headquarters in Wu Dao Kou: http://img.ly/mqZ

    Reply
  20. Papito
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:04 pm

    By the way, who cares? I’m loading in on Baidu and Tencent stocks while I still can…

    Reply
  21. Jay K
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    wudaokou has a lot of people right now. i jsut took a train from liu fang just to see the commotion, quite a few people out there.

    Reply
  22. Papito
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    The Chief Design Officer of Baidu Reacts to Google’s Withdrawal from China

    “The tone of the top Google legal advisor disgusts me. He could have said that they are withdrawing for economic reasons, plain and simple. Instead, they have to make themselves look good by saying that Google was attacked by Chinese people, that Gmail accounts of Chinese dissidents were attacked, and so on in order to explain why they are withdrawing from China. This type of tone is an insult to the intelligence of the ordinary Chinese citizens. But it may just appeal to certain supercilious westerners who have never been to China, know nothing whatsoever about China but like to say criticize China all the same.”

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/201001b.brief.htm#006

    Reply
  23. andeli
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:00 am

    Did anybody notices that China in August lost a WTO case to US on import of media products?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8198422.stm

    Google would be a benificary if/when this WTO ruling whould go in to effect. I still think this could be the US goverment telling the Chinese goverment, that if you don’t move in our direction, there is a trade war heading your way. The google case is good ammunition.

    Reply
  24. andeli
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:03 am

    By the way look up 没有 on google

    Reply
  25. Brandon
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:34 am

    Google representing justice, Google is saving our world,Baidu is sucha crap piece of shit, ugly design with weird thingy, By 852 represent.

    Reply
  26. mybestguess
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:37 am

    Lots of google’s value is based on consumer trust. If google were ever to lose that trust, its value would significantly decrease. Lots of articles are saying that google didn’t specifically accuse the government of the attempted breach, but it’s slightly implied. So part of the reason why google might be getting out is that they don’t want some big fiasco were foreign emails can be accessed. Google is still a business, and even though they might be trying to act “ethical”, this would hurt its bottom line.

    And of course there are other reasons google is pulling out. Google would stay if they saw it possible to make enough money to justify their business there, but their pie of the market is in decline and their operating costs are very high. Add in all the negative publicity from CCTV (look at Chinasmack’s other articles) and the new issue of Chinese author’s copyright (this has been big in the news every few days for the past month) and it can cause one to wonder if Baidu execs are making deals with News execs to smear google’s name.

    So basically google wants to protect their image of being safe and honest, and they feel it’s too hard to compete in the Chinese market.

    Reply
    • Moderately Informed
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 1:04 am

      Too hard to compete? You mean like how there is no respect for copy rights, patents, or trade secrets?

      Reply
      • mybestguess
        Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:16 am

        Basically. They’re trapped. If they start to follow practices of stealing code, secretly altering search results for compensation, or using connections to smear baidu, and then they get caught, their image in China and the West is hurt greatly.

        Meanwhile, these things happen to google. My claim is a little wild and maybe bullshit, but look at the recent big google book fiasco. For the past month, I’ve seen tons of articles on the China Daily about google being sued for book copyright infringement. Now how is this a smear? 1. I don’t believe readers of the news are interested in this, but it’s getting tons and tons of coverage in the media. 2. This came not long after the accusations of China showing porn. And as we saw on this website, netizens mocked CCTV and backed google. Google being the “moral” company is not good for baidu. 3. (this will sound Childish) Copyright infringement is making this big of a deal in China? This issue isn’t how its being portrayed. The same things have happened to author’s all over the world. Google publishes about 10 pages on their service and doesn’t show the rest (and yes, this is definitely a questionable practice), but the way it’s portrayed in the media is as if google is giving the entire book away online…

        So maybe there really are deals happening where news execs are being paid to smear google… (And I’ll say it again, I have no proof to back this up besides the reasons above)

        But really, any business decision is made based on many many reasons, and as this unfolds, we’ll better understand why google is leaving China.

        Reply
        • Moderately Informed
          Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 6:21 am

          I have also heard about the book thing. My news station basically said they are trying to scan all the books into google but supposedly make it free access or something like that?

          On smearing, there will always be stuff like that going on, back door deals with the man in the trench coat to not say this or that. I’m personally just fed up with how China deals with foreign businesses be it copy right, trade marks, or from what happened to Google, outsourcing web attacks against foreign competitors.

          I would like to give Google the benefit of the doubt but that’s probably because being American, I’d give the American company a break.

          I will say though, I find what I’m looking for using google, more so than Bing. I can’t make heads or tails of their results.

          Reply
      • akbar lo
        Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 10:52 am

        google knew all that shit and risks before signing up for the ball game

        Reply
  27. ShiXiangYun
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 1:11 am

    Wikileaks suggests that the real reason behind Google’s stance is that Chi-hackers have been targeting Google’s source code repositories. Pretty impressed with the Chinese response though. I get the impression that most of Google’s Chinese users are the urbanites – i.e. the money makers.

    Reply
  28. 250
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:32 am

    Oh god. Please don’t make me use Yahoo or, god forbid, Baidu!!

    Facebook and Youtube blocked and now Goggle pulling out. I’m still trying to get over that period when Wikipedia and BBC news was blocked! When will the madness end? Save me from the unholy trinity that is Renren, Youku and Baidu!

    Thank God for proxies. (Fauna, I can’t believe you missed your chance to promote your sponsor)

    [Note from Fauna: You're right! I have made an edit. Everyone who is worried about this news, perhaps it is really time to consider a VPN service like Freedur.]

    Reply
  29. sam
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:44 am

    google dont want to pay google adsense maybe hahaha

    Reply
  30. Goodness
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:54 am

    Good move Google! We applaud you decision.
    signed Human Rights Activists

    Yeah ditto.
    signed Baidu.com

    Reply
  31. Charlie Bean
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 3:01 am

    This is only the beginning, steal business secrets and other issues regarding foreeign businesses and larger companies will follow. Is this what China wants, to have big company investments to leave?

    Reply
  32. LAOWAIXIAN
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 3:28 am

    HI I AM BAAAAAAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!
    WELL, does it matter? information is strictly controlled in china and google is a major source of information. WHAT USE IS GOOGLE IF when you need certain kinds of info the page wont open due to government blocking. HAVING google or not doesnt change a thing.

    Reply
  33. dim mak
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:14 am

    See the different between East and West?

    On this issue:

    Westerners will point out human rights, morals and ethics first.

    Chinese will point out how much money Google would lose first.

    This is why China has the winning mentality.

    Reply
    • Somethin Somethin
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:27 pm

      Thats quite a Dim mentality. Westerners just feel like there is a bottom line in business and that line should include a basic level of decency. As a search engine and information rich corporation Google understood that it had a stake in freedom of speech. It had several other reasons to pull back: antitrust support, IP violations, etc. If your belief is that all Chinese people see in this is a dollar amount than you certainly don’t see past the edge of your nose.

      Reply
      • dim mak
        Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:01 pm

        Oh, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the Chinese put material profit and personal interest above morals and ethics, and Westerners do the opposite. A few Western friends I’ve spoken with didn’t even bring up the most important fact when it comes to Google’s decision: loss of profit. Instead they went on about how Google is setting a role model, how it was “about time”, and other unimportant things. And that, sir, is why we have the winning mentality. I’m sorry, but nice guys finish last.

        Reply
  34. bleah
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:42 am

    It seems to unreal to me to be true, the blog post seems to be too amateurish to be compelling, it does read like an offical press release. Which company of the size of Google would such an important blog post in such a style?

    Reply
  35. ralphrepo
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 7:06 am

    There are clearly plenty of pros and cons to Google’s THREATENED move (it hasn’t happened yet) but the fact that the corporate office chose to express such an opinion is indeed a sea change. I find interesting the public expression of support by native Chinese citizens, while “pro-China” Chinese from overseas are quick to point out the potential windfall for Baidu. But the comment by one native Chinese respondent sort of crystalizes the thought, in which he writes:

    “Baidu is a puppet, Google finally rises up/stands up!”

    Thus, my observations have generally been, that while many overseas pro China Chinese choose to see Baidu as a home grown success story and viable contender for G’s seat; the people who’s arena they will serve consider them to be a shallow stooge of the Chinese government; that Google’s departure would be an actual loss. From the limited comments (as seen above), they seem to actually prefer Google not because it was a technically better or more advanced search engine (which it is, more later), but that Google would ultimately be a better chance of being an honest search utility over Baidu.

    Another thing that is not being discussed here is literally the rest of the world, and this is what I meant about Google being a more advanced search engine. While Baidu serves China and the Chinese reading diaspora, it is by no means on the same footing as Google in terms of international market penetration. Its integration of Google earth, Gmail, Google books, and other sundry features in many international languages is decidely an act that regional players like Baidu will find hard to replicate. Hence, while Baidu may eventually win the China contract, Chinese people would likely continue to see it as a poor man’s substitute for Google.

    IMHO, will Google’s move force the PRC to be less aggressive with its cyber snooping or bullying of foreign businesses in China? In the short term, absolutely, no. The CCP has too much at stake in terms of reputation to admit to any of the above. Further, it probably has more at risk socially if the truth of its shaded history is known to a wider range of the general populace (especially those born after 1989). So, for the immediate future there is little that is going to change. The PRC government is probably going to put its best face on and say something along the lines of Google failing the Chinese people (likely something over porn or something equally materially frivolous but politically resonant), and had been already told privately they were not going to be allowed back. Politically, this was a huge slap in the face of Zhongnanhai considering that Google is turning its back on potential billions in business to do it.

    My take? Let’s wait and see. But it certainly took a lot of gumption and I applaud Google’s new set of brass balls.

    Reply
  36. Jean
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 8:10 am

    They are leaving because of loss of market share and profits. Two years ago, Baidu had a market share of 60% and Google, 15%. Now, Baidu has a market share of 80% and Google, 8%. If they really were concerned about human rights, hackings, and censorship, they should have protested when they had a market share of 15%-20%, Kai Fu Lee was president of Google China, and when they had much more leverage.

    Maybe Kai fu Lee knew Google China was coming to an end that’s why he left?

    Reply
    • Teacher in China
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:04 am

      On CCTV9 this morning, they reported google had a 30% share. If they’re admitting to that, I’m not sure where your numbers are coming from. 30% of such a huge market (and a market that is just going to continue to grow exponentially) is still a huge amount of cash and opportunity for more cash to throw away.

      Reply
  37. Alikese
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 8:57 am

    I’d be surprised if they hadn’t already made a behind the scenes deal.

    Reply
  38. FYIADragoon
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:03 am

    “The reasons provided by Google for the closing of their Chinese offices are rather vague if not unpersuasive.”

    The LZ must be an idiot if he can’t read between the lines that Google is trying to tell the government to back the fuck up and stop poking around for chances to harmonize activists who are using Google. Glad the netizens aren’t stupid enough to ignore the loss of a search engine that isn’t a pawn of the government.

    Reply
    • B. Prichard
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:32 am

      I think what’s most interesting is what happens if Google genuinely closes down google.cn. My understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong) was that google.com had pretty good penetration in China before the .cn domain opened. Of course, sensitive search terms were still filtered out by the GFW.

      If Google pulls out, does the Chinese government start blocking google.com? Or does it return to the pre-.cn status quo? If google.com is blocked, I guess it’s time for me to start VPN shopping, since A9.com is not a search engine anymore.

      Reply
  39. Evangeline
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:28 am

    I only use google as search engine, it’s sad to see things like that must happen, but not surprisingly, if google not pull out by itself, it will be cut off the connection like millions of other websites to glory the harmony one day anyway.

    Reply
  40. Truth Hurts
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:50 am

    It is clear to see that the gov intentionally pushes /blocks these major players on the Internet to give a boost to its own domestic companies. All of these blocks in the name of censorship and the tiresome Tibet exposure is just a strategy to cripple these companies and pave way for copied Chinese version. Lets break this down to a science shall we:

    Youtube – blocked to give youku.com wide exposure to the Chinese and resulting in full market share of Internet videos and contents.

    Facebook – blocked to allow Kaixin001.com to dominate domestic market and market share.

    Google – cripples its service to motivate Chinese users to transfer to baidu services. Also baidu services attracted user through its free music download which google could not do without going through legal proceedings.

    This is virtual protectionism to say the least but packaged in different sorts of excuses to censor and choke off the competition.

    Now there will be no competition but also no competition will mean less truth and innovation which the country has barely started to scratch the service of.

    Reply
    • dim mak
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 10:34 am

      Not to mention Blizzard.. eBay…

      Reply
    • ralphrepo
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:00 am

      I think you’re generally right but, IMHO, you’re missing the bigger picture. The PRC isn’t making all these moves to be protectionist of home grown versus foreign companies; rather if you examine and review each of your above examples, they are all potential portals to uncensored news and information sources. THAT is the biggest perceived threat, not foreigner market share of the Chinese market.

      Reply
  41. Hongjian
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:00 am

    Got an interesting quote here:

    “In any case this has become blown up to the proportions of the Heroin smuggler now in western press if not even bigger. Google certainly scores a moral victory in the west. It is very hard for anyone to defend internet censorship even if Google made the pull out for business reasons it would not be rebuked for it given the grounds on principles. This puts the CCP in an awkward spot.

    The way Google has done this is to stop censoring google.cn not actually pull out. The ball is then in China’s court to actually kick them out, furthering the moral damage for China. On the other hand to yield even an inch to google or to do nothing would be unacceptable. Given how public Google has made the issue I just can’t see the Chinese government being in any mood to compromise.

    I wonder if that means google.cn is not censored right in China. It’s going to be interesting to see how deftly Beijing is going to manage this.”

    So, good old psy-ops, like in the 50′s.
    China is in a bad position, but one should not underestimate the political skills of a machiavellian technocracy.
    Also; facepalm at these naiive Chinese commenters there. Do they want the same kind of Civil War, thats happening in Iran now? If the CCP looses it’s power over the continous political mocking and psychological warfare of the West, nothing good will come from it.
    In a destabilized Yeltsin-China, the human-rights advocades and bloggers will have much more work to do, than under the celestial kingdom of today.

    Reply
  42. ybin
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:09 am

    I think I am speaking for a lot of Chinese people that while we are for freedom of speech (which is part of universal human rights), we are averse to the proselytization of “democracy” which is a particular way (Western way) of governance. So people (Hilary, Obama… )should probably stop talking about using technology to “promote democracy”. Apparently last week Eric Schmidt (CEO of google) discussed with Hilary the use of technology to “promote democracy”. Sticking to the discussion on the freedom of speech will strike a better chord with us.

    Reply
    • Hongjian
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:26 am

      Yeah, this would be the ideal.

      But the reality is, when netizens get their ‘freedom of speech’ and reach their political goals, the government will be severely weakened. Considering the messy transition-phase China is at the moment, a loose of control in the country will only result in anarchy and chaos – maybe even a new civil war + famine. Ask your grandmother whether she liked the civil war and the starving. I guess not.

      In the end, the short happiness of ranting about liu-si, cultural revolution and corruption openly on the internet, will only turn into misery, when China turns into a second India, loosing everything that has been build up until now.

      This will, of course, be very well-liked by the western world, who are seeing this as proof for their Ideological and moral superiority – The West will always triumph over everyone and everything in the end.
      Dunno if this is that great.

      Reply
      • ybin
        Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:05 pm

        I share your sentiments on this. I am actually now on the fence about this drama. Freedom or Stability? I guess I want both. But that would be like having the cake and eating it too, at this stage. I guess one is now leaning towards stability.

        Reply
        • andeli
          Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:46 pm

          Still the issue of not accepting a “Western way” is somewhat strange given that the present system in China is created out of German/Soviet ideology.
          The means that China already works under one foreign created political system, which also means that it could work under another, say democracy in the constitutional based, regulatory state sense. Even now there are parts of the CCP who want interparty democracy. This shows that some in China knows this is the way to go, because a developmental state in the Friedrich List sense is not going to work forever.

          Reply
          • Hongjian
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 12:35 am

            Actually, China nowadays doesent act according to the western way, If you mean that, by embracing capitalism.
            Chinese Capitalism is more like the renaissance Merkantilism, which is pretty much the natural economic system and hasnt anything to do with western culture of liberalism. China, during the imperial-time, also had an Merkantilist economic system coupled with an imperial dictatorship, which has nothing to do with the West.

            I just think that alot of Chinese netizens, who are advocating the ‘clamour of change’, are too naiive to see the inevitable consequences of such a change.

            China nowadays is like a damaged jumbo-jet, flying with one, smoking engine, while preparing an emergency landing. What the people in the West, and liberal netizens and dissents in China are advocating, is pretty much like when the passengers are rebelling against the cabin-crew and try to beat up the only capable pilot in the plane, only because they didnt like the tomato-juice they were serving.

            Just let the plane land safely. The passengers can complain afterwards.

          • ybin
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 12:22 pm

            Pardon my ignorance. I am not sure exactly what a “constitutionally based, regulatory state” entails. But in my opinion, an ideal government should have the following qualities: rooted in pragmatism, with people’s well-being as the utmost priority, transparent, and believes in the rule of law. I refer to “Western democracy” in the narrower sense, whose core is the two-party (multi-party) system. I am hoping that the Communist Party can evolve (closely) into the ideal government that I described above and I will be happy with them in power perpetually. A benign authoritarian state, in other words.

            A Western democratic system may be attractive, in principle. But as one reply here rightly implies, when the democratic power falls in the hand of the un-educated and un-informed, chaos and anarchy will ensue. I shuddered to read the report in Nov 09 that a Phillipine southern clan massacred its political rivalries (57 of them) in the contest for provincial governorship. Democracy works best where the majority of the population is well educated and informed. That is not where China is now.

        • Somethin Somethin
          Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:59 pm

          It’s what everyone wants. Welcome to the free world. People in Detroit would love it, if somehow the government could solve all their employment problems. Just like those factory workers in Shandong were looking to the CCP last year. Chinese people love all the shit we in the West have fought and died for over centuries. Google(while you still can) the 30 years war sometime or who Cromwell was. when you think about how easy it is being free. Democratic government is the worst kind of government until you’ve tried all the other ones. (Churchill)
          I’ve heard what both of you have said from countless Chinese mouths. I want freedom and stability and I don’t know if freedom is really worth all that blood and carnage. Can’t say from a chinese urbanite’s perspective those 700 million hungry mouths, a few million occupied peoples, and an out of control military would make me feel like lighting the torch of Liberty. Hell it would probably turn me against it toward any source of stability. I could even sell myself on being real nationalistic because that stability made me stronger. In the end though chinese people are just like any human being. They want safety, stability, and that pursuit of happiness thingy. Can’t say that all of those things come from a one party system, but hey for SOME people they do.

          Reply
      • Josh
        Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:41 am

        I love how you’re essentially connecting the dots and saying uncensored internet => famine and war.

        If you look up the words “slippery slope” on wikipedia, it tells you that it’s a logical fallacy. Think about it.

        Reply
        • Hongjian
          Friday, January 15, 2010 at 10:25 am

          Then you obviously know nothing about China and its system of censorship.

          Chinese Internet censorship is actually not throughout airtight. People who really want to see forbidden stuff, can do it with VPN-services and proxies. Also, lots of foreign news pages and foreign websites in other languages beside Chinese are mostly uncensored in China. One just has to search in google.com and not in google.cn. So the government already knows and accepts that the great firewall is not 100% effective for people with a certain degree of education, since the language barrier is the greates and most effective form of censorship.
          What the CCP wants is just that the uneducated masses cant have easy access to critical content and get on stupid ideas about overthrowing the government. Those who are smart enough to tunnel past it are probably sophisticated enough to think critically about what they find anyway.
          In this sense, the GFW is more like a Dam; holding off water, but still letting some through.

          That said, a free internet is indeed a source of instability, if being used by ill-minded people, to spread subversive information to the uneducated masses.
          Evidently, the Iranian riots last year where heavily influenced by posts in twitter and facebook, lots of them originating from foreign members, inciting more chaos and instability. It is known, that the US government was heavily involved in these cases of destabilizing Teheran.
          So seeing this, of course China, who knows this, dont want that same game being played with them.

          A destabilizing campaign, spread in the internet by the help of the CIA, sure will result into the overthrowal of the CCP. With the CCP down, there will be a large power vaccum to fill and China will most probably fall into Chaos. Civil War will most probably break out, when Tibet and Xingjiang are using the chance to declare independence, while they are driving the ‘Han-invaders’ with pogroms out of ‘their land’. And when China descents into a Civil War, the whole economy wil crumble and the already unsufficient agriculture wont be able to support 1.3 bilion hungry mouthes.

          But lets look on the bright side: China will be a ‘democracy’ with ‘human rights’ (Of course only for those not starved to death or killed in riots), arousing the sympathy of the west and can be proud to be able to host UN peacekeepers in the Country, in an attempt to stop the several genocides that will be happening by then.

          I think I should call my family in China, that they should begin to hoard food and ammunition.

          Reply
          • Hongjian
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 11:09 pm

            This will be hard… Corruption in China is not like corruption in the West. Chinese corruption is embedded in the chinese culture and society. The daily low-level corruption, that is the base and source, is very hard, if not impossible, to defeat, since it draws from the extensive, cultural-based, guangxi-networks every Chinese has build up in his/her life, according to the cultural, societal traditions.

            If corruption, which is in fact the very core of almost every Chinese social problem since ancient times, must be effectively combatted, China needs lunatic mass-murderers like Mao or Qin Shihuang again, who are implementing hardcore legalism with collective executions of the corruptors family and extensive brainwashing campaigns, akin to the cultural revolution, with the aim to radically ‘change’ the Chinese culture and family values, which is the essential source of corruption. An emperor/politician like this, would certainly be the ‘massiah’.

            Nowadays, with a China that is working along the inherited commandments of Deng Xiaoping, the accumulation of power in a single person, neccessary for such a messiah, has become impossible. If there’s a idealist politician and party chairman nowadays, who wants to radically change the course of China, he would certainly be sacked by competing members of the politburo. To fight corruption and social misery, China needs to be an totalitarian dictatorship, with a single, omnipotent dictator again. But China nowadays is more an authoritarian oligarchy, consisting of competing officials with competing interersts, who are all based on the existence of corruption.

            If China becomes a democracy, the power to change something, will even be more fragmented by political parties, engaging themselves in a endless, chaotic fight for power. China would be like India then, where corruption and poverty is even more rampant than in the worst chinese province. But at least Chinese PR would be better in the world then. The west likes poverty stricken and chaotic, but democratic third world countries after all, since they dont need to fear them as future competitors.

  43. JUH
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:14 am

    Some Google.CN refugees will probably end up in Google.TW and Google.HK. I think this is also part of the reason why pulling out wouldn’t be that bad.

    Reply
  44. Research
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:20 am

    There’s another aspect that people might overlook here, I’ll point it out. One of the best thing of having Google, and Microsoft for that matter, setting up office in China is that both Google and Microsoft have two of the strongest computing research center in the world. MSR and Google research have two of the best research labs in the world (Yahoo research as well, as they hire some of the most famous computer scientist in the world, such as Andre Boarder and Andrew Tomkins).
    You see, here’s the pink elephant in the room …….It’s kind of known to computer scientists that researchers from Chinese Universities, and that includes PhD students, master students and even professors, they arn’t too good at writing quality research papers, and doing good research. This includes even Universities like Pekking and Fudan (Tsinghua over the past year had improved dramatically due the fact that they hired Andy Yao, one of the most respected theoretical computer scientist in the world, as the director, so Tsinghua is excluded)

    The fact that Google and MSR sets up research lab in China, it’s helping a lot of the researchers and PhD students in China to learn to do proper research. As Google’s research lab in China is suuuuuuuper hard to get into, you pretty much have to fight against the other thousands of PhD students from China that wants to get in every month.

    If Google leaves China, this means that a lot of computer scientists and PhD students will not have a place that can train them to become a good researcher. Research in China will suffer because of it. And if it follows that MSR is closing it’s research lab, then China will pretty much loose two of the strongest research lab in the country, as Baidu don’t really have research labs.

    So Google’s helping China to train researchers, and it leaves China, advance education in China will suffer.

    Reply
    • 水溶C100
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:32 pm

      Good point,

      However I’ve always been under the impression that the Chinese government doesn’t care in any way, shape, or form about the quality of education. Simply that it is availible is more than enough.

      Thoughts?

      Reply
      • Research
        Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:28 pm

        I’m not sure, they might start to care in the future when there is a dramatic drop of Chinese researchers getting their papers published in international conference. I mean right now the method is simply “there are 1000 papers submitted from Chinese Universities to this International conference, but 1 will get in”.

        Reply
  45. DevelopingChina
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Be ruled by a government with a strong grip on information content or be ruled by a fat cat corporation.

    That is the question…………

    Reply
    • Research
      Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 2:46 pm

      Google is hardly corporate fat cats. I mean yes, it’s a large corporation, however it’s got some of the hippest, most trendy and innovative people working there. Also they worked as very loose but creative teams. It really doesn’t have this “evil big corporation with one man controlling it all (Bill Gates)” kind of a thing going. The “men” that “control” google is Sergey Brin and Larry Page, who are just two nerds, who still do lots of research, and arn’t really that wealthy or powerful, like they still lead research teams and work on projects like everyone else that works there.
      I’m of course talking about Google in CA, I don’t know about the offices in China

      Reply
      • DevelopingChina
        Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 2:36 pm

        I would agree on you with that now that you mention Google like that. However letting the government give permission to Google to do what it pleases just for the sake of fulling it’s “company motto” could spark a chain reaction with other corporations who could might follow suit to fulfill their motto.

        Unfortunately most of the corporations trying to break into China are probably fat cat corporations. It’s all assumption about what might happen if the government did allow Google to give unlimited access. It could actually be a good thing or even the total opposite.

        Reply
  46. MD
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    People… Listen up… The Chinese government is very experienced at handling these kind of issues, In fact they’ve handled those that are hundred times worse… They know they have the upper hand and they know there’s nothing anyone can do about it… For the chinese netizens, it’s either Baidu or Sina or others… or NOTHING! It’s ur choice… No one is forcing you to use the internet, but if you choose to use, then there will only be Baidu, Sina, and others…

    Reply
  47. Spanky
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    Google is in fact not blocked in China. I’m in Shanghai (no VPN). If you do an image search for Tiananmen Square Massacre, you get some bloody thumb photos and even the famous kid vs. the tank photo. You also get the hot mini skirted army girls from last October.

    http://images.google.cn/images?gbv=2&hl=zh-CN&newwindow=1&sa=1&q=tiananmen+square+massacre&aq=f&oq=&start=0

    If you type in Tiananmen Square Protest, you don’t get much (at least on the first page of thumbs).

    Reply
  48. Paul
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    The Chinese Government is the biggest bunch of paranoid pussies on the face of the planet. They are deafly afraid of free speech. They are afraid of their own citizens knowing the truth about anything. The Chinese government needs a dumbed down population to survive.

    Reply
  49. octavian
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    The British were right to have ruled China and wrong in having left China to the Chinese.

    A second century of humiliation would be good for China. The Chinese race needs to be put in its place.

    Reply
  50. Peter Vernezze
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Google’s logic boils down to this: Our site has been hacked, so unless you allow us to run an unfiltered search engine, we are leaving. The best way to see the logical difficulty is to use an analogy. Imagine you own a house in a subdivision, and that house gets getting robbed. It might make logical sense to say, my house keeps getting robbed, so I am moving. But it makes no sense to say, “My house has been robbed, so unless you allow me to put up a structure on my property that is higher than the property code for this subdivision allows, I am moving out.”
    What does one thing have to do with another? one might justifiably ask. In both cases you are asking to violate a code (building height restriction/search engine restriction) that you knew was in place when you entered into the agreement, and are doing so based on some factor that has no logical relation to the restriction (burglary/hacking). In logic, this is called a non sequiter, or, literally, “it does not follow.” The thing you want does not logically follow from the conditions you are putting forth for it.
    One can praise Google’s insistence on running an unfiltered search engine and still be troubled by the logical rationale of their request (and more troubled by why they agreed to the restrictions in the first place).
    http://www.chinafromafar.com

    Reply
    • hudongqing
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 6:50 am

      This is not a non sequiter. The problem is your narrow identification of the cause. The stimulus to Google’s action in this case is not “we got hacked”. Its “we’re sick of getting treaded like crap by the Chinese government.”

      The response is not, “open internet or else”. Its “if we can’t do it our way, we wont do it all, because we’re sick of doing it your way.”

      All you guys complaining about Google’s logic are basically just cynically determined to find fault with a corporation.

      Reply
  51. 傻子（婊子也行）
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    I have a question:

    Would you rather have penises for fingers OR a penis for a tongue?

    All I’ve managed to come up with so far is that trips to the dentist would get awkward real quick.

    谢谢配合

    还有，在星球大战里所有的帝国士兵都有英国的口音。。。为什么？

    Reply
  52. PUSAN PLAYA
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    FAUNA!

    FAUNA!

    FAUNA!

    Now that I’ve got your attention, I’d like to point out that the thumbs up, thumbs down voting thing hasn’t worked in the last day or so, please fix it so people can tell me how awesome my posts are.

    [Note from Fauna: The voting is turned off due to abuse.]

    Reply
    • LOLZ
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 1:32 am

      “[Note from Fauna: The voting is turned off due to abuse.]”

      LOL Wut? Are you telling me that a certain person(s) who need to feel good about himself by counting his internet approval may actually abuse the voting system and things like voting himself up many times?

      [Note from Fauna: There are people who abuse voting for themselves and other people.]

      Reply
  53. haun
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    BBC has posted a response by chinese government.

    “China has said that foreign internet firms are welcome to do business “according to the law”.

    I am not surprised at the response. Threats have never worked well against Chinese government, especially when it comes to sensitive issues. No offense, but google really had a wrong decision. Google now has to decide to pull out and lose the profit or stay and lose their face for what they said coz Chinese government is not going to change anything.

    Clearly google does not know much about politic and about chinese government. They should have chosen some other tactic instead of announcing they might pull out of china.

    Reply
    • Lachlan
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 5:14 pm

      “Clearly google does not know much about politic and about chinese government.”

      Google know a hell of a lot about politics. Let’s see what happens when CCP state-controlled entities try to go around the world acquiring Western companies.

      “Google doesn’t trust China, so why should we?” will be the first story Western politicians shout aloud amongst their voters. The foreign investment boards of these countries will consider what voters think of a Chinese controlled company in their backyard, and block or deny the takeover. Just happened in Australia with one of the world’s largest mining companies. Google Rio Tinto.

      Reply
  54. Shanghairocks
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    What people will enjoy post-Google is not Baidu; but, loneliness :p

    Reply
  55. jobrody
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    This might be a naive question, but how does Google know the identities of the owners of the hacked accounts, let alone that they are “human rights activists”? Aren’t webmail accounts supposed to be pretty much anonymous? Aren’t they NOT supposed to be reading the content of our messages?

    Reply
  56. manusan
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    5 years in china, millions $ investissement, 1% benefice of mondial totality. 30% or 100% is same, internet chinese market is a wind.

    Then, before start google phone, it’s a very good marketing strategy specialy for european market, the biggest one.

    Reply
  57. Zpakka
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    Dear china friends, some one is starting for you a sort of “war for freedom”.
    Here, in the west, we have fought for century, It’ yours turn.
    I read in our newspaper thath China gov. is scared about the possibility thath to many information (read TRUE information)can be read from treyr citaziens.
    Be brave, fight for you freedom.

    Reply
  58. Zpakka
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    @Jones… LOL, there are too many things to explains and my UK isn’t so good to begin a discussion thath can explain to you and other friends my opinion.
    I try writing only some words.
    The problem of China is freedom, this things reflects in all other things, also Google

    Reply
  59. Josh
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    After reading the bit on ESWN (linked at the top) about how over 70% of poll respondents believe that the government should not make any concessions to google, I have to wonder: did anyone actually think they would?

    Also, isn’t Huanqiu an extremely conservative newspaper? Essentially, nanfang’s opposite? Finally, the paragraph on there about how google has strong ties with the American government seems to make me think the author thinks that the relationship that Chinese companies share with the government is the same that American companies share with their government.

    Reply
    • Anon
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 2:56 am

      1. If ONLY 70% of people in a Huanqiu poll say they somehow want the government to take a stand against foreigners in a particular situation, that seems to suggest an unusual amount of support for the foreign side, which is born out by the fact that many of the comments on Huanqiu that actually show some thought are in support of Google. Considering that this is a website where all disasters befalling any country that has any problem with China are met with cheers from many, (and a story about a Chinese student stabbing four people at a university in France had people calling him a “hero”)I think 30% support for a foreign company’s stance is pretty significant.

      2. Huanqiu is now claiming that the poll results were hacked. Maybe this is true, or maybe this is like how, if I recall, they found a rationale to reject “被” as “character of the year” despite, at least when I looked, its overwhelming popularity.

      Reply
  60. bob
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 10:30 pm

    bob123
    bob123 Posted Jan 13th 2010 12:20AM
    Neutral

    People are actually falling for Google’s jibberjabber? When did it become the torchbearer for human rights? Last time I checked, they are a for-profit corporation.

    This is the logic that bothers me: Google say they are the victim of organized cyber-attacks from China. They say they have thwarted the attacks, and have since decided to open up an uncensored search engine in China as a response. I’m sorry, but A does not lead to B here. If your systems are fucked by hackers, add more security. What’s running a uncensored search engine going to do?

    The way I see it, this is a desperate attempt of a profit-driven corporation to get some PR (both outside and inside China) and a way to compete against home-grown Chinese Internet companies (certainly people would use uncensored over censored search engine). Google has never established a foothold in China, and this is there attempt to get there.

    Reply
  61. Zeols
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 12:12 am

    Chinese people think
    BAIDU is everything…
    YOUKE is more than everything…

    Reply
  62. LOLZ
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 12:38 am

    Some more interesting bits are out today regarding the object of the “hacking”.

    http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1047&tag=content;col2

    Apparently the hackers were targeting Google’s spy app which made it easy for google to secretly track users info. Google then can give this info to the government/authority when asked.

    The fact that such a system even exists is obviously an invitation for hackers: gaining access to this sekret app means you can find out the DOX/identity of any gmail user.

    The biggest laugh is the major reason behind google building this spy app: The US Patriot Act. Apparently it was the US government which “forced” google to build this app so that it can use google to monitor users from all over the world in an effort to fight “terrorism” (though no one ever really defined the term). Now Google is pretending to be upset that other governments are attempting to abuse it. If Google REALLY want to make a stance against government abuse, it would renounce secretly collecting private info on its users period.

    Reply
    • Hongjian
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 12:49 am

      Highly interesting.

      Since I somehow doubted that Google would retreat just because they have ‘only’ like 30% of market-share in China, of course, this makes sense now… In the end, international corporations are still working by the rules of realpolitik.

      Reply
      • LOLZ
        Friday, January 15, 2010 at 2:27 am

        Hmm, I think it’s becoming more clear how and why would google got hacked, it’s still unclear why would google threaten to leave China now.

        A lot of the “analysts” mentioned about how google “only” has 30% of the market share and how google can improve its “brand name” by uncensoring its chinese site. But the whole angle of China Inc. vs. Foreign companies has not been explored enough. To me the main reason google is acting way is to protest how the Chinese government is favoring its domestic competitors. The big news about google before this announcement (and the Nexus one) was that the Chinese government was targeting google and mostly only google in the copyright lawsuits. Google China’s top exec Lee voiced similar complaints before he left google to start up his own domestic venture last year. This “Chinese government favors domestic firms” message resonates well with other Western firms hoping to tap the Chinese market. I think Google has gained support from some of its competitors like yahoo because of this.

        Now that the Chinese government made its point clear not be budge, the ball is in google’s court again. I hope that google does not quit China though.

        Reply
        • Hongjian
          Friday, January 15, 2010 at 3:31 am

          If this is true, that google did this as ‘protest’ against the supremacy of chinese enterprises in the domestic market, then there’s absolutely no reason to fear that google actually retreats in real.
          What google did, was simply a bluff, since the fact that google actually did all this to help their business in China, is proof enough, that they didnt actually wanted to abbandon the chinese market.

          Now, Google is actually at the short end of the stick; They aroused so much western sympathy with their ‘lighting the torch of freedom’, while China didnt gave in to their demands. Now, since the threat was just a silly bluff, THEY are the one’s losing the face for kotau’ing before the machiavellian communist overlords in the end.

          of course it is based on the assumption that Google is acting pragmatist and not ideological here. But anyway; worser PR than the torch relay of 2008, this little mocking isnt…

          Reply
        • hudongqing
          Friday, January 15, 2010 at 7:01 am

          LOLZ,

          C’mon, does a vague statment that companies operating in China have to obey Chinese law really count as China’s move in this regard? Google has requested a meeting with the government. The ball is in the government’s court until the meeting is done or rejected. So far they just stalled while they wait for instructions.

          Reply
  63. foretop hand
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 1:26 am

    Google has one core asset, and it is an
    intellectual property.

    It appears that hackers went after 34 other companies.
    This exposes Google to serious legal liabilities,outside
    of China. This adds considerable risks (and cost)to Goggles global operations.

    China is juggleing chain saws (real estate bubbles, unsecured loans, Etc. Etc.)
    The world financial crisis is far from over.
    Tradewars are (almost)inevitable.

    Reply
    • Mongoloid
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:07 pm

      Stealing IP from hacking is so hit and miss that I doubt it is at all viable. Companies like Google aren’t idiots and are very protective of their IP.

      Its probably a better idea just to hire the entire Chinese staff of Google once they get laid off.

      Reply
      • Mongoloid
        Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:10 pm

        I think most people don’t realise how hard it is to hack into a well guarded system, not less by Google, and obtain valuable information. Its a whole different kettle of fish than email scamming a pensioner.

        Reply
  64. Grumble
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 4:00 am

    +1dim mak says:
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 4:57 pm
    “When searching for AV girls, I will think of Baidu Baike”

    There’s no AV girls on baidu baike.. wtf is that guy smoking

    And Google would be majorly stupid to pull out of China… think of the profit loss.. I bet they won’t do it in the end.

    THEY’VE DONE IT, IN EFFECT, ALREADY. IDIOT.

    Reply
  65. Josh
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 8:55 am

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many comments on this site pointing out the “lack of logic” on Google’s end. Isn’t it obvious that this is a “last straw” situation? Google took a goodwill hit in entering the Chinese market at all by making concessions to censor their search resualts so as to comply with Chinese law. And that was cool. But then since they’ve done that, the government has consistently attacked Google’s credibility through a corrupt mouthpiece. Some even suggest that the reasoning for that was because they didn’t contribute money to the Chinese spring festival gala like Baidu did. Then, there comes a cyber attack that very clearly originates from government sources? Lots of people are saying, “Relax, Chinese people have been hacking for years, you’re not the only ones,” but that doesn’t change the fact that a) it happening to other people doesn’t justify it happening to Google and b) the focus of the attack clearly indicates that it originated from the Chinese government itself.

    Why should a multi-billion dollar company with the best name brand in the world suffer such arrogance and continued slaps in the face? Would you want to? This is clearly Google saying, “That’s it, we’ve had enough of this horseshit arrogance.”

    Reply
    • hudongqing
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:10 am

      Josh,

      Exactly.

      Reply
    • dim mak
      Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:17 am

      Money isn’t a good enough reason? Google is a business you know.

      Reply
      • Josh
        Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:27 am

        I’ll direct you somewhere above where someone states that the Chinese market comprises 2% of Google’s global profits. With the Nexus One coming out, Chrome on the up in terms of users, and a continually rising amount of Google reader users, I’d say Google can afford to lose the Chinese market in exchange for a massive good will increase around the world.

        People say, “Oh, but what about how big the Chinese internet market will be in the future?” Future being the operative word. In the future, a lot more Chinese will also have an effective command of the English language. Google.com is not blocked in China, and any Chinese internet user who knows the word “search” in English can use it. It also offers Chinese search results, just as google.cn. Think about it practically. How much difference does having google.cn really make considering that anyone in China can use google.com anyway?

        Reply
        • Anon
          Friday, January 15, 2010 at 12:05 pm

          Josh- don’t forget that Google will almost certainly be blocked if they pull out. Unless the government decides that might look too obviously spiteful, but you know, with their record, I doubt it.

          Reply
          • Josh
            Friday, January 15, 2010 at 1:50 pm

            It’d be nice if Google kept it’s Google.cn address, let it go unfiltered, moved their offices to Taiwan, and included instructions about how users could circumvent the firewall. I mean, they’ve already taken off the gloves saying they hate the censorship bullshit. Why not take it all the way?

    • LOLZ
      Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 12:23 am

      You are making a huge deal out of companies getting hacked by foreign governments. I would not be surprised if NSA or equivalent hacks foreign companies and governments all the time, the difference is that usually these things are kept under better lids.

      Agreed that Google is tired of the getting an unfair deal, though one would think that a multi-billion dollar company makes its decisions on business forecasts than raw emotions. Either way, I don’t think most people are remotely qualified to say whether this is a good business decision on the long run, but they allow their political ideologies to sway their opinions anyway.

      Reply
      • Josh
        Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:39 pm

        a) the operative words in your post being “I wouldn’t be surprised if…”

        b) NSA attacks on foreign companies don’t justify Chinese government attacks on Google. This is the definition of a straw man.

        True, none of us our qualified to make the call. This is, in fact, my best guess from the information available. But you would think that other people on this forum would understand the possibility of alternative reasons as well.

        Reply
    • jezz
      Tuesday, March 9, 2010 at 10:43 am

      Yup, it’s funny how the Chinese government doesn’t understand the rest of the world won’t put up with it AND the rest of the world thinks they’re a pathetic, corrupt joke and will tell them that’s what they think.

      Reply
  66. Hongjian
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 9:36 am

    very interesting article.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gues-post-google%E2%80%99s-mysterious-threat-pull-out-china-covert-war-brewing-between-us-and-china

    Basically it’s the US trying to pull a second Iran in China again.

    I hope that the celestial kingdom will be strong enough to mercilessly crush that attempt.

    Reply
  67. yung
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 11:54 am

    http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&source=hp&q=tianamen+&btnG=Google+%E6%90%9C%E7%B4%A2&aq=f&oq=

    its working perfect just try google.cn link below works perfect

    Reply
  68. uhhh
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    毛豆子:

    NND, no matter who you are, the moment you come to the Celestial Kingdom, you will be castrated.

    Take history please.

    Reply
  69. UnclePu
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    How about making SPAM illegal in China? 85% of the SPAM I get comes from China or points to servers in China.

    That type of control I would support!

    Reply
  70. Tumult
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    What value would a censored Google have for chinese netizens?

    Reply
  71. kedafu
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    Living behind the firewall for longer than some of you were born! has never been so difficult, since the Xinjiang Riots, Facebook, YouTube, the Twit site, Torrents, porn (If your into that….) and now google

    My latest laptop purchased here runs “Tomato Garden” hacked version of WindowsXP, I was lucky to buy this before the “Green Dam” fiasco

    anyways going to buy my next laptop in another country

    this Online battle will be fun to watch!

    Reply
  72. Research
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 4:03 am

    It’s easy to construct Chinese government response and google’s strategy into a game (as in game theory) and find where the equilibrium is ect. I’m sure Google’s had that done way before they make the decision of leaving China and decided that it is safe to do so.
    So, I’d say Google’s got the upper hand, I don’t think anyone in the Chinese government’s gonna construct a game.

    Reply
  73. Joyce
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 4:43 am

    Hongjian — That is very logical.
    Greater Internet freedom will lead to civil war and famine, just like my grandparents went through.
    It’s well proven that websites cause starvation. Also chaos and anarchy.

    Also, allowing Google to operate it does in the rest of the world will turn “China into India.”
    And this is all a conspiracy of the West to destroy and put down China. Right. Good points.

    Has it occurred to you that greater technological innovation and freedom of expression might actually help China?
    And that other nations might actually have good intentions in mind?
    BTW. I live in Hong Kong where our Internet is free and unfettered, and people can protest or criticize the government openly.
    It’s one of the richest, most stable places, best-educated places I’ve ever lived. (And I’ve also lived in the U.S., Britain and Canada).

    Reply
    • Hongjian
      Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 4:55 am

      So, just like Iran then, where the ‘good intentions’ of the West was realized by inciting riots through twitter and facebook, turning the situation on the streets of a country into something akin to a civil war.
      For a authoritarian technocracy like China, the exposal of the uneducated, aggression-laden and unemployed masses to the ‘truth’ can mean its overthrowal. So dont compare the situation to a city-state, which enjoys a educational- and economical-level of a first-world country.

      If the government is overthrown, it will be anything but ‘stability’ and ‘peace’.

      Reply
  74. too yellow
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:09 am

    This just reminds, isn’t there a lawsuit between the chinese writer association and google book. Wonder how this will be resolved once google exits China

    Reply
  75. Joyce
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:10 am

    You’ve got alot of faith in your own people there, Hongjian.
    I sometimes think the rest of the world has more faith in the Chinese than the China itself.

    The Iran comparison is crazy. A dictator, Middle Eastern politics, Islam, nuclear threat — there are many reasons Iran is unstable.

    I don’t think Twitter did it.

    The recent riots were organized by Iranians themselves. Read the papers.

    And don’t blame the tool. Blaming the Internet for China’s vast governmental problems is like saying that telephones caused World War II.

    There’s obviously no point in trying to argue with you.
    You’re bending over backwards to find ways of blaming Google (and, by extension, the entire Western half of the world) for China’s own insecurities.

    Who said Google was going to overthrow the Chinese government? It’s just a big company that got sick of being censored and hacked into — in a country that only made up 2% of their profits anyway.

    If you think denying your fellow citizens the basic right to information is a way of IMPROVING your country — you guys are heading in the wrong direction.

    I wish the best for China. But I’m glad I’m on this side of the border.

    Reply
    • Hongjian
      Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:41 am

      It has nothing to do with ‘having faith’. Chinese do have faith into their people, but the thinking minority are at least less naiive than western observers and more realistic. We know the Chinese history and the chinese mentality from own expierience, and we know what will happen when the control of a chinese state is weakened by the ordinary folks, emanzipating themselves.
      The last time we had it, it resulted in the communist dynasty overthrowing the old one and ruling us now.

      And the Iranian opposition, who are inciting the riots is evidently backed from the west, that hopes to overthrow the current leadership there because of its nuclear ambitions. Call it good or bad, i dont care. But the facts are there – the ‘free world’ is always using such channels to destabilize their enemies.
      When the Chinese censorship is abolished, I dont want to hear the rantings of the NED-backed ‘Radio Free Asia’, ‘Epoch Times’ and ‘NTDTV’, plus several Free-Tibet groups, inciting riots and protests against the government and disturbing the stability and peace of a country, that is still in a critical and very disturbance-sensitive transition phase.
      In this sense, of course the problems the government is trying to hide, is largely self-made. This is just normal for a country that is hanging between first-world-status in its coastal regions, and medieval-age in its western-provinces. You can say, that Deng-Xiaoping is at fault for doing the economic reforms after all, who are making these problems in the first place. If Chia would remain poor as it was 30 years ago, we wouldnt have to deal with umemployemnt, product quality, corruption and tienanmen. We would just have all starved to death. Simple solution, though.

      Talking about the legitimation of Censorship in general: I just say; Columbus.
      Columbus would have never reached the new world, if he didnt lied (ie. censored) in his log, and to his crew about the real time and distance traveled. He would most probably have been thrown out of the ship during a mutiny, caused by angry and demoralized sailors who where exposed to the truth.

      China is pretty much in the same situation as Columbus now. There’s a goal to reach, but the price on the way to it is very high and the sailors must never know about it.
      This is just pragmatism and machiavellism. We can enjoy the truth and laught about it, when we reached the ‘new world’.

      Reply
      • bleah
        Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 7:00 am

        Columbus would have never reached the new world, if he didnt lied (ie. censored) in his log, and to his crew about the real time and distance traveled. He would most probably have been thrown out of the ship during a mutiny, caused by angry and demoralized sailors who where exposed to the truth.

        There would have been a mutiny for sure if they had found out. Maybe they would’ve accepted the truth if Columbus had the ability to sell himself, so if you tell us that he had to lie in order to reach India (;), you are revealing your pessimistic attitude.

        China is pretty much in the same situation as Columbus now. There’s a goal to reach

        What goal?

        Reply
        • Hongjian
          Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 8:25 am

          The ‘goal’ would be a wealthy, stable, first world nation. Maybe even a more ‘democratic’ one, but not in the western definition. Some kind of enlarged Singapore maybe, a first-world country and nanny-state (or just an outright police-state), with global economic power and major political influence, but not engaged into the status of a world-police or moral-apostle or ‘torchlight of freedom’ or hegemonial-power. Certainly, not a country following the political will of the west, even while being democratic. Maybe like Russia in this regard.

          And this, solely the fact that China wont. ever. be a loyal follower of western supremacy like maybe other asian first-world powers like Japan and Taiwan, will be reason enough for them to not be at peace with each other.
          Just like the post-soviet Russia, who became a democracy, but is still actively acted against by the West, solely for the fact that it still possesses enough independend, unchecked power to be able to refuse western demands.

          So, even if China someday reaches the ‘goal’ of becoming a more liberal and ‘democratic’ great power, there will never be peace with the western world. Simply for the fact that Great Powers will never be able to coexist with other Great Powers.

          Reply
          • ybin
            Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 8:40 am

            Hear! Hear! You hit the nail on the head! “Freedom, Democracy” or not, China will NEVER be a tail-wagging puppy of the West like some supine countries in Asia.

          • Hongjian
            Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 8:46 am

            Not just because of the reason of ‘pride’. But more because of the unshable law of political reality.

            The world politcs is a zero-sum game. One gains power, the other inevitably loses power. As simple as that. If China wants to live peacefully with the West, it must give up it’s ambitions of becoming a great power akin to the US, enabling it to cumulate all power and be the sole ruler in the world.

            The world is simply too small for two big countries, no matter whether they are both democratic or both dictatorian.
            In a zero-sum game, theres always a loser, but not always a winner.

    • opensights
      Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 6:46 am

      A Brilliant piece of insight and common sense!

      Reply
    • LOLZ
      Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 11:55 am

      “I sometimes think the rest of the world has more faith in the Chinese than the China itself.”

      That’s what the “rest of the world” would like to think. The truth is that unless you are Chinese, you wouldn’t give a shit about China. Even many people in HK and Taiwan don’t give a shit about China. To them China = Mainland = low class scums to ridicule.

      It’s funny that the “rest of the world” is now focusing on changing China, when the worst has been over. Where the heck were the activists and their protests when Mao’s policies were actually killing millions of Chinese decades ago?

      Sure, there are some concepts such as Censorship which would benefit the people of China. But there are also plenty of things which “the rest of the world” are pushing for which are hardly in the best interest of Chinese people (Tibet independence for example). Put it simply, the only reason why other nations want China to act a certain way is because other nations think it would benefit themselves more. That’s how politics work.

      The real truth is that China’s growth directly challenge those in the “freedom loving nations” brainwashed into thinking that their way and only their way would produce positive results. These people cannot accept the fact that an authoritarian nation practicing heavy censorship can succeed the way it does. What’s even more scary is that China is doing better than India, the world’s largest democracy in most areas although they started off near the similar points decades ago. They want to change China because China is a threat to their ideology. Faith in the Chinese people? No, more like faith in seeing China fail under its current path. Because China failing would validate their own beliefs over how government should work.

      Reply
      • Hongjian
        Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 3:49 pm

        This is just how the western world works.

        Christian Monotheism, and the first commandment – ‘you shall have no other gods before me’ – had a very deep impact on the way the western world is thinking, even after the ‘enlightment’, that suppossedly should’ve ended such thinking.

        The ‘one and only god’ is merely replaced by the ‘one and only’ ideology of democracy and freedom. This is what the western ‘enlightment’ was and is all about. Replace an absolute god, with another absolute god.
        The very same claim of universalism, the same kind of dogmatism and exactly the same inflexibility and intolerance – all remained the same, while producing intellectuals like Francis Fukuyama writing self-satisfied about ‘The End of History’ and the final victory of the ‘western way’ over any other ‘ways’ in this world.

        Just too bad for them, that there is a country like China, that seems to not be working according to their calculations, not within their ‘natural laws’ and is not respecting their claim of ‘universal values’.
        This, of course, is heresy, and must be purged.

        Too bad just, that the best weapon of the western world, it’s capitalist economy, is actually completely free from ideology and morals, and thus helped China to be that giant ideological sacrilege, it is now.

        Reply
        • Mike Fish
          Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 6:19 pm

          Hongjian,

          It’s the sad truth… you are correct. However, I still feel it’s way too easy and simplistic to put everything into the “West vs. East” argument, whether that’s your argument or not. There is not West or East. And comparing current values to the roots of China’s values, where does China stand? We can go back to the new China 101 cliche of everything is about Confucionism. Compare China to the other Confucian countries, right? How different are their values and China’s? Or Buddhism, especially the philosophy side of it? How does the current God-less China stand compared to Hong Kong and Taiwan which are China without the cultural revolution and the death of God? The China you are describing, that is so outside Western “universal values” would also seem to be outside it’s own professed traditional values as well as those of most of the rest of East Asia. I’d love to see your critique of the current China without the focus on the West.

          Reply
        • andeli
          Monday, January 18, 2010 at 1:50 am

          The Enlightenment was never supposed to end Christian Monotheism it was just an alternative way of thinking, and that is the issue at hand. Some parts of the CCP do not allow alternative thinking and give all those who think otherwise the stigma “anti Chinese”.
          The Hegel inspired dialectic materialism, which is the foundation of the modern Chinese state, is a true child of The Enlightenment. The ideology of dialectic materialism holds in it the potential to create great material prosperity. The political system under Deng Xiaoping understood how to harness growth from a combination between dialectic materialism and market economy. The problem is that dialectic materialism also holds the view that all other ways of thought are wrong. If an entity does not bring progress in a quantitative measurable sense then it’s suspicious. Not only is it suspicious but it must be forced to understand that progress can only be obtained through material prosperity and thus “die vollständig aufgeklärte Erde strahlt im Zeichen triumphalen Unheils”.
          A pluralistic approach to communication will not bring China to her knees it will on the other hand bring her closer into the international community that is being created in these years. This international community is essential to China, because the stability of China does not derive from control it derives from economic prosperity and the future of Chinese economical growth is imbedded within innovation, free flow of information, rule of law and political accountability. As said earlier the present Friedrich List inspired developmental state approach will not help China in the short or long run.

          Reply
        • Hongjian
          Monday, January 18, 2010 at 3:21 am

          I wouldnt call this a real ‘issue’. The western philosophy and the eastern are naturally different, and both viable and sound. The core problem here is just; that the Western philosophy of enlightment, that is the basis of Western political culture today, has been ironically build upon the teachings, the dogma and even the same methods of the monotheist religion of Christianity. (One should not forget – the main thinkers of the enlightment where all at least raised as faithful christians). The issue here would be the fact, that monotheist religions have the claim of global universalism, that excludes every other ‘god before or beside him’. This very same kind of universalism claim, that now the western ideologies and values are wielding – claiming that only the western way of nation building and only the western political philosophy is the true path to development. Even the ‘Universal Human Rights’ are based on the very same Christian-styled universalism claim. The Communism, a true child of european enlightment, that befell China, wasnt any different. It also claimed an universal validity, that was as ignorant to each nation’s cultural basis, as was the image of God pictured as an bearded, white Caucasian, being ignorant to the fact that ‘whites’ are a global minority, compared to Mongoloids and Black Africans.
          So in this sense, the enlightment wasnt just some ‘alternative way of thinking’, it was claimed to be ‘the only right way of thinking’, in the same style as Chiristianity was claimed to be the only right path to salvation during medieval ages.
          So the western liberal philosophy of pluralism is in fact more a dogma of pluralism, claimed to be the only true path to political and societal salvation.

          And the assumption that modern China is somehow is based on the Hegelian/Marxist dialectics is not really true. I’ve had always the feeling that especially fellow Germans are the last people on earth, who would understand the true discrepance of China being Communist in Name and China being Communist in believe.
          If there’s anything Chinese are good at, it’s to serve multiple lords and to pray to multiple gods, even if these lords and gods are excluding each other outright – so the total opposite to a monotheism based western culture that can only accept one and only one god/ideology/truth, even if the god, ideology or truth declares its tolerance to other gods, ideologies and truth’s.

          The Hegelian thinking, that seems to come with communism, is not really what China is based on – Since the Communism itself is nothing but a farce, an ‘Opium for the Masses’, utilized by a very traditional Chinese Warlord named Mao, to attract support for his power grabbing, and to found his ‘communist’-dynasty, that is in fact just a traditional absolute monarchy with different name. So the ammumption of: China + Communism = Hegelian dialectics, is outright wrong.

          Talking about the Chinese culture and values, not even Confucianism was implemented right. In fact no religion or ideology, had been implemented with being even 50% true-to-the-idea in China.
          Chinese Confucianist philosophy, that is often quoted to be the source of dictatorship and authoritarism, was in fact a very value and virtue based, very (yes) idealistic philosophy. A confucian emperor was not allowed to use force against his people, but should lead with his virtue and mercy for example.
          This, in fact, was far to utopian to be realized as an functioning political and societal culture, so the (actually non-violent) Confucianism, that had an positive view on human nature, was forced to mate with the very violent philosophy of legalism, that denied humanity the ‘right’ of being vurtuous by nature.
          Legalism was pretty much the opposite to Confucianism. Whereas confucianism had an idealist take on societal stability (virtuous people do not commit crime), Legalism was totalitarism incarnate (people are criminal by nature, so you must torture and kill them to make an example).
          Two different ideologies who are excluding each other by nature, two gods who wont accept any other god beside them, fusioned to the very ideology China nowadays is based on: Confucianism with it’s values and virtues of loyalty and obedience as ‘stabilizing and harmonizing’ opium for the masses, Legalism with its totalitarism and brutality as tool of politics for the rulers.
          The same like Communism today – The very utopian and liberal idea of cummunism, mated with traditional authoritarian realpolitik. In modern China’s case; This, fusioned with the pseudo-confucianist Legalism.

          Reply
          • andeli
            Monday, January 18, 2010 at 11:01 pm

            Not sure I agree on this one.

            “that the Western philosophy of enlightment, that is the basis of Western political culture today, has been ironically build upon the teachings, the dogma and even the same methods of the monotheist religion of Christianity. ”

            but more importantly through the Renaissance and Descartes they embraced the empirical side of Greek philosophy which stood in direct opposition to basic Christian teaching especially the Scholasticism. Nietzsche (raised as a faithful Christian) committed the greatest patricide (or you and I would properly prefer Vatermord) in history by using the ancient Greeks, Scandinavian tribes and other warrior cults, so to bring down any connection between his “enlightenment” and the monotheist religion of Christianity. True Kant was a good Christian, but he rejected basic Christian metaphysics (Die menschliche Vernunft hat das besondere Schicksal in einer Gattung ihrer Erkenntnisse: dass sie durch Fragen belästigt wird, die sie nicht abweisen kann, denn sie sind ihr durch die Natur der Vernunft selbst aufgegeben, die sie aber nicht beantworten kann; denn sie übersteigen alles Vermögen der menschlichen Vernunft.) in order to bring reason within the frames of man.

            This brings me to your next point.

            “So the western liberal philosophy of pluralism is in fact more a dogma of pluralism, claimed to be the only true path to political and societal salvation”

            No because a dogma does not hold within itself the acceptance of it own destruction. A multiparty pluralistic state with freedom of speech accepts those who advocate or seeks its destruction (within it’s own set rules of course), something an authoritative state does not. And when I quoted Horkheimer and Adorno above it was because enlightenment was the tendencies you mention. It becomes a dogma, the dogma of the quantification. A democratic state offers Universal suffrage but you seem to focus on universal and not suffrage, which means that the universality can be ended.

            Since the Communism itself is nothing but a farce, an ‘Opium for the Masses’, utilized by a very traditional Chinese Warlord named Mao, to attract support for his power grabbing, and to found his ‘communist’-dynasty,

            I would not reduce the ideology of the CCP to being ramblings of a Warlord (you must be thinking of the国民党). Especially the ideological work created in the 1950ies with regard to 我国社会主义建设的第一个五年计划 were decisive for developing China and this work was indeed inspired by dialectic materialism. See the first part of the 1956-1967年科学技术发展远景规划纲要（修正草案）for this claim 我国在这个大革命的前夕进行社会主义建设，只有充分利用现代一切科学技术成就，并通过自己的努力来充实和发展这些成就，才能保证社会生产力的不断提高

            China is built on dialectic materialism and thus an understanding of development as material development, which had a profound impact on the nation. I think Mao saved China for becoming Indian in the sense that he understood that in order to create a communist paradise and support the dialectic materialism, he would first have to strengthen the position of the 农民 something only an idealist would do not a warlord…..

  76. Morgan
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:13 am

    I don’t think people understand the consequences of these actions. Basically a Fortune 500 company is saying that the United States foreign policy of ‘engagement’ with China is a failure. Google has a lot of clout with the new Obama administration and with Nancy Pelosi. During the first Bush administration it was the Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi that lead the charge to impose sanctions and reject Most Favorable Nation status with China. This is an interesting turn of events. Google is telling China, if you want us to follow your laws then the Celestial Kingdom (Communist Party and PLA) need to follow the laws too.

    Reply
  77. Joyce
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:24 am

    Hongjian — I don’t mean all this personally toward you. I just think it’s the wrong path for China.

    When my grandparents fled China before WW2, Hong Kongers and Mainland Cantonese were probably equally poor and uneducated. My grandmother was illiterate.

    On one side of the border were free newspapers and a population who could complain about everything from police brutality to the price of ferry tickets. There was also much investment in education, plus a (relatively) clean government.

    On the other side of the border, there was fierce censorship, no criticism and a one-state Communist government.

    Sure, Hong Kong had a few demonstrations and bumps on the way. And I am no big fan of colonialism. But freedom made Hong Kong grow. Meanwhile, the mainland wasted maybe 40 years during the Cultural Revolution, etc.

    As you point out, look at the differences between the two places now.

    I think the Google problem has pointed out that China is at a fork in the road. Which way will it go?

    Reply
    • Hongjian
      Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:56 am

      Again, Hongkong is a small place, colonized by the british who where implementing the highly efficient and corruption-proof western beaurocracy. Additional controls by british officials who arent following the corrupt Chinese tradition of Guangxi-building, made this city-state very effective. Also, wasnt this a motto of Hongkong? First wealth – then democracy?

      You just cant compare Hongkong with the Mainland. I know these argumentations. Here in Germany, there are also naiive people, claiming that we should adopt the democratic system of Switzerland; the system ‘Direct Democracy’ instead of our system of ‘Representative Democracy’.
      People who know anything about politics and society, all warn about such an easy assumption, that ‘what works there, must also work here’.
      Germany is a democratic coutntry with a long, liberal tradition of free-thinking intelligensia. But even with such a ‘fitting soil’ for the implementation of an different, but also democratic system, the Model of the small country of Switzerland still wont work in a thousand years.

      Reply
      • bleah
        Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 7:08 am

        Interesting that while you were talking about Switzerland and direct democracy you didn’t mention the ‘Minarettenverbot’. I heard opinions seeing this as an example for a disadvantage of the direct democratic system.

        Reply
        • Hongjian
          Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 7:18 am

          Yeah, the ‘Minarettenverbot’ is pretty much the epitome of direct democracy and actually the ‘nice version’ of Mob-law. This happens when ‘the ordinary people’ are allowed to decide directly over complex political decisions. The ‘mob’ tends to follow populist and rightist policies, in sake to ‘save the future of our children’.

          And this kind of democratic system, some retards in Germany are advocating for being applied to 80 million people of the most different educational level.
          Duh, I dont really trust the judgement of an Emre, Yussuf, Serda or Türkan, living off Hartz IV in Berlin, Neuköln to directly decide over the Health-Care Policy, or a Mike, Dennis and Sven in Hamburg, Steilshoop to judge over the military spending in a ‘people’s votum’, for that matter.

          Reply
  78. SauLaan
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 7:21 am

    Google is a company that serves clients. If using Google is seen as insecure, even by laypeople (let alone big business interests), investors will pull out of Google. As great a market as China is–er, could be someday sans CCP monkey business–it may not be as important yet as the existing domestic investors who may well uninvest if Google is the kind of company that lets itself (and its investors) enjoy daily rogering by CCP pseudo-hackers.

    This is, after all, theft we’re talking about. Not “hacking,” but theft of private technical information and intellectual property.

    Reply
  79. jay
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 9:13 am

    The CCP had put their spies inside Google China and stolen the source code – thus threatening all of Google. The CCP has cost China dearly.

    Reply
  80. MAOCUNT
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 11:58 am

    I have this feeling after google pull out, the CCP will most likely notice it screw themselves up as well. But again, they prob “love their face” too much to invite them back even if they have to drag every people living in China to hell with them, the CCP will consider their “face” first.

    Reply
  81. eight
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    if google leaves i am leaving

    Reply
  82. apensi
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    Since when did the CCP become serious hackers?

    Reply
  83. opensights
    Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 6:21 am

    as sure as the sun will come up mingtain, China will one day become a democracy! The only thing that frightens me is how much innocent Chinese blood has to be shed to make it so. I hope none! But this Google thing is only a step along the way! For example to rob a student or a netizen of where he may search for information is theft of his or her freedom of choice!

    Reply
  84. Papito
    Sunday, January 17, 2010 at 11:59 am

    “Why did Google suddenly distrust its Chinese team? After all, they developed their own codes and they should be more efficient in making the migration.

    The only reason is that the Chinese Communist Party must have inserted special agents inside Google (specifically in the Shanghai office of Google).

    The truth of the matter is that this person was sent by the Chinese Communist Party. After being hired by Google, this person copied down the critical program code and handed it over the the Chinese Communist Party.”

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/201001b.brief.htm#012

    The original Chinese article on Douban has already been removed:

    http://www.douban.com/note/57037189/

    Reply
  85. Cata
    Monday, January 18, 2010 at 12:19 am

    Umm, there are many Chinese only welcome Gucci(foreign goods,especially the luxuries)but not Google, I call it the “Gucci Yes Google No” import system.

    Reply
  86. cmfeirs
    Monday, January 18, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    anyone who finds freedom a threat is a moron. The only time freedom has ever beed a threat throughout history has been “limited freedom”. I think therefore I am. We are what we think – our ideals, our morals, our dreams, our fears. All of which are predicated on the freedom to discover who you are – the freedom to chose between the bs and the truth. Anyone who believes less information is better and that this has anything to do with respecting each others’ laws and viewpoints should be shot, because there is a good chance in the future you will be shot by a frightened little child government who doesn’t want the truth to be known.

    Reply
  87. xino
    Monday, January 18, 2010 at 5:50 pm

    yes they should!
    China are showing off too much with their strict law, instead of having regulations for in CHINA like how Jackie Chan was saying.

    First was Youtube, later Google.

    Just pull off!

    Reply
  88. Inpartial
    Monday, January 18, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    You have to follow the local law, wherever you maybe! Be it in US, China or anywhere. We have to learn to respect the culture and practice of our host.

    Reply
    • black oreo
      Wednesday, January 20, 2010 at 9:29 am

      they did abide to their laws. The main reason they’re pulling out is because they found the sophisticated hacks are linked to the government itself, not some loser in the basement who had nothing better to do.

      Reply
  89. cmfeirs
    Tuesday, January 19, 2010 at 7:05 am

    Censorship and cyber-spying are not the culture of the Chinese people or their practice. It is a law from the government to protect . . . oh, the government. Stop trying to say that this is a “respect” issue. I had to listen to 30 minutes of that bs on Dialogue last night.

    Reply
  90. Jean
    Wednesday, January 20, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    i think this is more of a marketing stunt, though a risky one.

    Reply
  91. Tom
    Sunday, January 24, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Thank You CHINESE GOVERNMENT! Everyday, Google is getting more and more free advertising from this event. More and more Chinese will want to read on “why” Google is upset…and they will become enlightened.

    “The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.”

    ………………..Thomas Jefferson

    Reply
  92. David Thooi
    Monday, March 15, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    In China, one does not enjoy basic human right to freedom of speech. There is no so-called “Human Right” in China. China is notorious for this. Google should move out from China.

    Reply
  93. Bill Elliott
    Tuesday, March 23, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Google should re-open in Taiwan. That would make the Chinese Government very happy.

    Cheers to Google for being the first company of it’s size to turn down profits which could be had by giving more power to the Fascist Chinese Government.

    Chinese Communism can not have a Capitalist Element, Chinese Fascism CAN have a Capitalist element to “communicate” with the world, only through profits and slave labor.

    Look at Hitler and Mussolini there were thousands of Companies using the captured slave labor\”citizens” of both Fascist groups to work for cheap and the capitalists would make the dough for the Fascist leaders. Sound like China?

    Schindler’s List anyone?

    Reply
  94. dim mak
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    I am aware that the Chinese government favors Baidu and has shown prejudice against foreign owned e-companies, but from your standpoint wouldn’t SOME profit be better than NO profit?

    Reply
  95. LOLZ
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    Isn’t that how business usually works? You take the risks and invest or GTFO. Investing in China paid off nicely for GM last year and likely for years to come, and rest of the world think GM is a joke of a company.

    And what’s so bad about government backed competitors? Toyota, GM, Samsung, etc. are all backed up by the local governments. If they and the “Han industrial profiteers” can make a product which sells less that’s good for consumers.

    Finally, it’s damn smart of the Chinese government to force foreign companies to partner with domestic groups if they want to sell in China. It protects the economy and local people. If the US did that it would not be in the same economic slump it is in today.

    Reply
  96. Davis Jones
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 2:52 am

    I agree with you XMCX. This is a big threat to businesses in China. After development of the business, government policies can be used against foreign businesses to ensure that domestic companies enjoy the lions share of the market over the long term, ultimately forcing the foreign entity who helped build the market to take a smaller market share or even leave the country.

    Reply
  97. phil
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:32 am

    Would you feel the same way if the situation were reversed, or if it were your company who provides the know-how and experience who were forced to work with another company and share profits because it was a local company…

    Reply
  98. dim mak
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:10 am

    Too bad Westerners assume protectionism is evil right off the bat, it’s like some kind of taboo here.

    Reply
  99. Goodness
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 3:58 am

    Really? I had a Yahoo themed wedding. It sucked because I had to give my guest book to the Chinese government and my best man was jailed for 10 years.
    :-(

    Reply
  100. akbar lo
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:29 am

    your argument failed at “what if”

    Reply
  101. bleah
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:44 am

    it’s unfair.
    Being backed up by an artificial entity called state causing trouble.

    Reply
  102. taihanasie
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Some of the loudest criticisms of protectionism have come from Chinese officials. Case in point:

    http://www.938live.sg/News/Business/EDC091228-0000116/Wen_Jiabao_blasts_trading_partners_protectionism,_vows_to_not_yield_to_yuan_appreciation_pressure

    As for your assetion that Westerners assume that protectionism is bad right off the bat, perhaps you don’t read Paul Krugman, who asserts the contrary:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/opinion/01krugman.html?th&emc=th

    In effect, Krugman is right. There is nothing wrong with protectionism in some cases. Of course, the China debate is over whether China’s protectionism is EXCESSIVE, not over whether or not the country has the right to protect some industries. All countries do this, to an extent.

    Reply
  103. taihanasie
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:44 am

    You overlook the potential to build profit in other markets. Google is an international enterprise, and its Chinese ops only contribute around 3 percent of the company’s revenue. So when you say, “think of the profit loss”, I ask, “where is the corporate cataclysm?”

    Incidentally, your suggestion that the profits Google can make in China should make the company want to stay in China are similar to the viewpoint of the Xiang Ligang blog post above. The basic idea is that China has a large market, and Google would be silly to not want to do business there.

    This viewpoint is short-sighted. Xiang, and you, seem think that China has become so important that international corporations can’t be as successful without doing business in China.

    If Google’s announcement (which may or may not be political theater) raises the company’s reputation in several other markets, thus strengthening Google’s position vis a vis Microsoft and Yahoo, Google may actually gain from making this announcement, or even from withdrawing from China.

    It is and has always been a fallacy to imagine that companies will proft/be successful just by being in China, just as it would be a fallacy to imagine that a multinational from any third country would NEED to be in the US (for example) to profit/be successful.

    Reply
  104. gg
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    Its the only way greedy Chinese people know for making more money, blame foreigners while claiming to be insulted and curry favor with even greedier people above. No heart and No soul. But he’ll be going to hell anyway!

    Reply
  105. PUSAN PLAYA
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    I would dress up as Sailor Moon and place the Japanese flag on Dokdo before I take posting advice from King 7%

    Reply
  106. Teacher in China
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Then google isn’t very smart. Whatever the numbers are right now, to ignore what is going to be (if it isn’t already) the single biggest internet using population in the world within the next 20 years is foolish and short-sighted for a business who apparently claims to have a global strategy.

    Reply
  107. bob
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    There is this wonderful modern technology called the Internet, where you can connect to any computer from any other computer on Earth. Let’s say Google totally pulls out from China, does this prevent Chinese hackers from infiltrating Google servers? You know the answer, and so does Google.

    As for the stealing statement. You should find out how many top engineers/researchers working at Google are Mainland Chinese (in the US). If the percentage shocks you, then it should also shock you to find out that China have even greater number of talent, and there is absolutely no need to steal from such a company.

    This is just a cheap PR attempt from Google, nothing more.

    Reply
  108. Kai
    Friday, January 15, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Baidu is often described in the press as China’s “home-grown” internet portal and search service, as though its native parentage somehow explains the company’s reported pliancy in acquiescing to government censorship demands. In fact, however, Baidu’s financing is as American as the dot-coms of Internet 1.0.

    Baidu received its initial funding from American venture capital firms, including Draper Fisher Jurvetson and IDG Technology Venture. (Google itself was an early-stage investor, but sold off its interest in Baidu as it was deciding to expand into the Chinese market). Baidu was taken public by American investment banks and law firms. Its stock (symbol: BIDU) trades on the NASDAQ exchange. And it is today majority-owned by institutional investors with names like Fidelity and Morgan Stanley.

    Not surprisingly, Baidu’s stock rose sharply on news of its competitor’s confrontation with Chinese government authorities.(Google’s stock declined, but not much). Baidu’s American investors will reap a windfall if, as seems plausible, Baidu soon finds itself a monopolist in the business of internet search in the world’s biggest internet market. But should they?

    From HuffPo.

    Reply
  109. Anon
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 12:55 am

    On Huanqiu? Here: http://www.huanqiu.com/content_comment.php?tid=687998&mid=1&cid=387

    Most of them mockingly say “oh, he’s mentally ill, France should set him free” in reference to the British smuggler, but some of them are disgustingly offensive- yet par for the course on Huanqiu. Here’s a good sample: “肯 定又是他妈的法国佬把我们这位民族英雄逼得没有退路了。咋不多捅死几个！！”

    Reply
  110. Hongjian
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 5:58 am

    True. Sometimes I’m living in Germany and sometimes I’m in China for a while, when the semester-vacations and university-workload allows it.

    Reply
  111. bleah
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 7:01 am

    But you have just the German citizenship?

    Reply
  112. Hongjian
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 at 8:01 am

    considering that China’s ‘goal’ is not to become the same sort of Superpower and World-Police like the US, but more a mere Regional Great Power and economical giant without a global political/ideological supremacy-claim like Western powers, the ‘slaughtered Indians’ will most probably be those Chinese people again, who are acting against the celestial kingdom, incited by the continuous propagations and agitations of dissents, backed by western powers who will never, ever accept China as a peer, and will always try to bring it down with any means possible.
    This is the fate of anyone, ‘not accepting the Western way’ of nation-building. Not accepting the claimed ideological supremacy and universalism of values of an established, self-proclaimed ‘free world’, claiming to represent the pinnacle of humanity’s political development.
    As long as China refuses to acknowledge that they are ‘wrong’ and ‘ideologically inferior’ to the ‘free world’, they will have to continue slaughtering those poor ‘indians’.

    Reply
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