Say Goodbye to Google China? Chinese Reactions

The official Google blog released a post on January 12 saying:

Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident–albeit a significant one–was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses–including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors–have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.

Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users’ computers.

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered–combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web–have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

This blog post has already been translated into Chinese by a Chinese netizen.

The reasons provided by Google for the closing of their Chinese offices are rather vague if not unpersuasive.

  • Yes, cyber attacks exist in China and some originated from this country, but Google is not the only victim and even its major opponent Baidu recently got DNS hijacked by the so-called “Iranian Cyber Army”.
  • Second, isn’t it Google’s responsibility to utilize all its technical might to protect users’, including human rights activists’, privacy? Saying “we will retreat because some of our users’ email account were monitored” is like admitting their own disadvantage in technical strength and persuading users to switch to other companies.
  • Third, I fail to see why compromise of some users’ computers due to their own lack of sense in internet security is a fault of Google itself: anyone using ANY email system could be hacked if the user acts like a security newbie, and it doesn’t matter where the login portal pages are hosted (I remember Google doesn’t have a data center in China).

Maybe Google and the Chinese government failed to reach an under-the-table deal recently and Google thinks the revenue from China’s 26% search engine market (already larger than the US market in number) doesn’t pay the cost of following local laws and the damage of reputation from “doing evil”? But isn’t the trouble for millions of Chinese users of backing up GMail and other Google service accounts a part of “doing evil” too (if these backups are needed)? And how does Google China settle the eight hundred employees in its Chinese offices?

I really hope this announcement is just a protest (or a joke) from Google to the Chinese government against its protectionist policies and the company will still keep running in China or it’s really the saddest and naivest thing I have ever heard in 2010. Anyway, I will follow this incident and report updates on chinaSMACK in the next few days.

Further readings:

From The Telegraph, “Google threatens to pull out of China “:

After the announcement, Google’s China website immediately began to offer reports and images of the Tiananmen Square massacre and other highly sensitive events that Beijing has suppressed for decades.

Note: I failed to get these “reports and images” from Google.cn when I tried.

UPDATE:

From Xiang Ligang’s Blog (on Sina):

Google’s renouncing its Chinese operations is merely psychological warfare

In the past few days [the Chinese Internet] was filled with big news from search engines. Yesterday, Baidu failed to work for several hours, and then this morning, Google announced on its official blog that it is considering closing its China operations and also the website Google.cn.

I think Google’s announcement is basically a kind of psychological warfare and is unlikely to be implemented, otherwise the losing side is Google and the netizen. However, the majority of Chinese internet users will forget this incident in no more than three months and only few people will remember it occasionally, like ripples on a pool of water.

Google made such a declaration which is related to the conflict between its ideology and management [in China] recently. Since the beginning, Google has not thought of itself as a media, but a search engine, and [Google believes that] search results are technically determined [rendered purely from algorithm] and it [Google] should not be responsible for the management [censorship] of these results. In the United States, if there are contents that affect the image of the leadership and even [result in] personal attacks, Google just makes a statement [won't pull these contents down].

Thus, in the Chinese market, Google has no intention to adjust itself to adapt to the Chinese situation, but in full accordance work along their own ideology [that were discussed on the above paragraph]. Therefore, under the media exposure in the Anti-Pornography campaign, Google could barely handle the situation and had to change its leadership in China. Even in such a situation, Google has been facing the pressure of taking on more management responsibilities [from the government].

On the recent copyright lawsuit with the Writer’s Society, Google didn’t understand [the Chinese writers' appeal] well either. Google’s understanding is, they did not scan all the books nor made them available for readers but barely scanned a portion of the books, which should work as indexes to facilitate readers’ inquiry and learning and even to some extent help the writers increase their books’ publicity. Reaction and impact in the Mainland are things that Google finds hard to understand.

For Chinese people, we think these things from different angles and we will understand varies levels’ [social classes'] feeling, but for Americans, it is difficult to accept [understand].

However, will Google really withdraw from the Chinese market? Personally, I think this is just psychological warfare. For the world and the internet industry, losing China is like missing a huge market. And in the subsequent development of the Internet, for example 3G-related services, there will be a large number of areas that Internet companies must pay attention. Losing the Chinese market will be a major blow to Google’s global strategy and will also affect its future strategic layout [of the global market]. In the long run, its mobile phone [Nexus One], mobile operating system [Android] and other related services will face a big problem.

The most important thing, after quitting the Chinese market, is: Will Google’s relevant departments in China be facing a lot pressure? No department [of Google China] would actually be held accountable. The majority of internet users will not be affected much, while the only suffering ones are Google’s employees [in China]. The result will be that Chinese [companies] become increasingly powerful [have more future market share] in search engines and 3G businesses. Think about it, the day when Google wants to reenter the Chinese market, it will be completely uncompetitive. And if they adopt such a confrontational action [quitting the Chinese market], it’s hard to say how the cooperation between Android and Chinese enterprises will be affected.

I think China and the United States have always been strategic rivals and, at the same time, partners in many areas. For Google it is the same, they must realize that [people in] China and the United States do not feel [think] the same thus they must find more channels to exchange [opinions] and to communicate, and they have to be far-sighted to see through all these [Chinese characteristics]. Quitting is not an attractive option for Google.

Chinese Netizen Reactions

Below I have translated some comments by Chinese netizens about this news and added a poll to ask what you think about what will happen. – Fauna

Comments from KDS:

ThE:

服部半藏:

Now this a big company’s behavior!! In the future I will definitely buy a Google mobile phone to show my approval!! (But it needs to be a bit cheaper).

月色朦胧:

At the time, it was on Google that I/we searched and found Sexy Photos Gate. We cannot not have Google.

小姐侬好:

What use are the [Chinese] netizen masses…American government…hurry and help/support Google…

東京タワー:

2 possible outcomes:
more freedom or no freedom

白兔先生:

Over the past 5 years, I’ve personally always used Google~The name “谷歌” [gu ge] is too “2″ [sha, "stupid"].

root:

Baidu is a puppet , Google finally rises up/stands up!

毛豆子:

NND, no matter who you are, the moment you come to the Celestial Kingdom, you will be castrated.

燃烧の酒精:

When searching for AV girls, I will think of Baidu Baike, but for normal things, I look to Google.

今天不下作:

For this, Google must be supported, fuck, in the future I won’t use Baidu anymore!

RR拖拉机:

I definitely support Google, definitely do not lower your head [bow, give in] to the Celestial Kingdom [Chinese government].

坏掉的鼠標:

iGoogle is my homepage.
Google Reader is my newspaper.
Google Documents is my document editor (and furthermore just today it began to accept any file format for upload).
Google Voice is my communication tool.

Without Google, how do I survive?

Ru.J:


Shut it down.
TG [The government] already does whatever it wants.
Entering email boxes, deleting the account owners’ emails…
is tantamount to
entering someone else’s company and kicking out the old customers.
They [the company] can no longer do business,
so of course they will want to leave.
I ding you Google.
Your name will go down in history

Poll

Do you believe Google will pull out of China?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...

2010 January 14 ~1:30 UPDATE: There are rumors (or jokes) that Google will help their Chinese employees get American Green Cards but require a 3 year employment contract. — Fauna

2010 January 14 ~13:00 UPDATE: More translations to read… — Fauna

  • “Google Leaving China? Chinese Responses” (ChinaGeeks)
  • “Google China photos: because I’m without words” (CNReviews)
  • “Withdraw?  Google Is Only Throwing A Hissy Fit!” (EastSouthWestNorth)
  • “The Chief Design Officer of Baidu Reacts to Google’s Withdrawal from China” (EastSouthWestNorth)
  • “70% Chinese Internet Users Surveyed Don’t Think The Government Should Make Any Concessions To Google” (EastSouthWestNorth)
  • “Google Leaving?  Is this because they couldn’t adapt, or because they are bitter?” (EastSouthWestNorth)

I am a little suspicious of the Huangqiu poll that says over 70% of Chinese say the Chinese government should not accept conditions from Google. Please note that only ~2000 people participate in that survey question, but more than 17,000 people participate in the other survey questions. Strange?

2010 January 17 ~15:00 UPDATE: More readings. — Python

  • “Clearing Up Confusion on Google and China” (WSJ’s China Real Time Report)
  • Google China changed its logo after the incident. “Google.cn Highlights China’s Great Inventions” (WSJ’s China Real Time Report). Read: EXIT.
  • “China’s puny online ad market, and Google” (Danwei)
  • If you are as curious (and geeky) as I am,  read on “Code Used To Attack Google Now Public” (Slashdot). Google should seriously consider fire its employees who are still using IE6 on Windows XP and hire me.
  • Quote from Kaifu Lee, founder of Google China who left Google last year, on his microblog, “A captain would never run away from his duty, if he knew the ship was sinking.”
  • Keso made a list (Chinese) on Google-gates (scandals) in China. All 19 of them since 2006, from copyright infringement to pornography, to tax evasion, to breaking its promise on earthquake donation.
  • Something hilarious to watch, “What Baidu will look like once Google is gone from China” (Shanghaiist)
  • And an even more hilarious piece translated by ESWN, “The Truth About The Google Affair”.

2010 January 18 ~2:00 UPDATE: – Fauna

2010 January 20 ~11:00 UPDATE: — Python

Google China released a short announcement on their official blog in Chinese. I translated it here on chinaSMACK:

To clarify some untruthful rumors
January 19, 2010 PM 06:03:00
Posted by: Yun Liu and Wenluo Yang

Over the past few days, we have seen a lot untrue rumors about Google China and Google‘s employees: there are reports that we have closed the office in China, and there are some reports that we have employees in China who had recently been notified to leave their jobs. These [rumors] are all untruthful. Currently, Google employees in China are working in the offices as usual, to discuss product development and to communicate with [our] customers. Despite that Google’s executives in the head offices [in Mountain View] recently announced that they will discuss on some matters with the Chinese government in the next few weeks, Google China’s employees are, as always, making an effort to provide our customers and partners with the best products and services, [since] customers and partners are very important to Google.

Not threatening to pull out of China. chinaSMACK personals.

Time to consider a VPN service? Freedur is an advertising sponsor of chinaSMACK and it is what we use. It recently released a new version and additional servers.

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229 Comments

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  1. 傻子(婊子也行)

    I have a question:

    Would you rather have penises for fingers OR a penis for a tongue?

    All I’ve managed to come up with so far is that trips to the dentist would get awkward real quick.

    谢谢配合

    还有,在星球大战里所有的帝国士兵都有英国的口音。。。为什么?

  2. FAUNA!

    FAUNA!

    FAUNA!

    Now that I’ve got your attention, I’d like to point out that the thumbs up, thumbs down voting thing hasn’t worked in the last day or so, please fix it so people can tell me how awesome my posts are.

    [Note from Fauna: The voting is turned off due to abuse.]

    • “[Note from Fauna: The voting is turned off due to abuse.]”

      LOL Wut? Are you telling me that a certain person(s) who need to feel good about himself by counting his internet approval may actually abuse the voting system and things like voting himself up many times?

      [Note from Fauna: There are people who abuse voting for themselves and other people.]

  3. BBC has posted a response by chinese government.

    “China has said that foreign internet firms are welcome to do business “according to the law”.

    I am not surprised at the response. Threats have never worked well against Chinese government, especially when it comes to sensitive issues. No offense, but google really had a wrong decision. Google now has to decide to pull out and lose the profit or stay and lose their face for what they said coz Chinese government is not going to change anything.

    Clearly google does not know much about politic and about chinese government. They should have chosen some other tactic instead of announcing they might pull out of china.

    • “Clearly google does not know much about politic and about chinese government.”

      Google know a hell of a lot about politics. Let’s see what happens when CCP state-controlled entities try to go around the world acquiring Western companies.

      “Google doesn’t trust China, so why should we?” will be the first story Western politicians shout aloud amongst their voters. The foreign investment boards of these countries will consider what voters think of a Chinese controlled company in their backyard, and block or deny the takeover. Just happened in Australia with one of the world’s largest mining companies. Google Rio Tinto.

  4. What people will enjoy post-Google is not Baidu; but, loneliness :p

  5. This might be a naive question, but how does Google know the identities of the owners of the hacked accounts, let alone that they are “human rights activists”? Aren’t webmail accounts supposed to be pretty much anonymous? Aren’t they NOT supposed to be reading the content of our messages?

  6. 5 years in china, millions $ investissement, 1% benefice of mondial totality. 30% or 100% is same, internet chinese market is a wind.

    Then, before start google phone, it’s a very good marketing strategy specialy for european market, the biggest one.

  7. Dear china friends, some one is starting for you a sort of “war for freedom”.
    Here, in the west, we have fought for century, It’ yours turn.
    I read in our newspaper thath China gov. is scared about the possibility thath to many information (read TRUE information)can be read from treyr citaziens.
    Be brave, fight for you freedom.

  8. @Jones… LOL, there are too many things to explains and my UK isn’t so good to begin a discussion thath can explain to you and other friends my opinion.
    I try writing only some words.
    The problem of China is freedom, this things reflects in all other things, also Google

  9. After reading the bit on ESWN (linked at the top) about how over 70% of poll respondents believe that the government should not make any concessions to google, I have to wonder: did anyone actually think they would?

    Also, isn’t Huanqiu an extremely conservative newspaper? Essentially, nanfang’s opposite? Finally, the paragraph on there about how google has strong ties with the American government seems to make me think the author thinks that the relationship that Chinese companies share with the government is the same that American companies share with their government.

    • 1. If ONLY 70% of people in a Huanqiu poll say they somehow want the government to take a stand against foreigners in a particular situation, that seems to suggest an unusual amount of support for the foreign side, which is born out by the fact that many of the comments on Huanqiu that actually show some thought are in support of Google. Considering that this is a website where all disasters befalling any country that has any problem with China are met with cheers from many, (and a story about a Chinese student stabbing four people at a university in France had people calling him a “hero”)I think 30% support for a foreign company’s stance is pretty significant.

      2. Huanqiu is now claiming that the poll results were hacked. Maybe this is true, or maybe this is like how, if I recall, they found a rationale to reject “被” as “character of the year” despite, at least when I looked, its overwhelming popularity.

  10. bob123
    bob123 Posted Jan 13th 2010 12:20AM
    Neutral

    People are actually falling for Google’s jibberjabber? When did it become the torchbearer for human rights? Last time I checked, they are a for-profit corporation.

    This is the logic that bothers me: Google say they are the victim of organized cyber-attacks from China. They say they have thwarted the attacks, and have since decided to open up an uncensored search engine in China as a response. I’m sorry, but A does not lead to B here. If your systems are fucked by hackers, add more security. What’s running a uncensored search engine going to do?

    The way I see it, this is a desperate attempt of a profit-driven corporation to get some PR (both outside and inside China) and a way to compete against home-grown Chinese Internet companies (certainly people would use uncensored over censored search engine). Google has never established a foothold in China, and this is there attempt to get there.

  11. Chinese people think
    BAIDU is everything…
    YOUKE is more than everything…

  12. Some more interesting bits are out today regarding the object of the “hacking”.

    http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1047&tag=content;col2

    Apparently the hackers were targeting Google’s spy app which made it easy for google to secretly track users info. Google then can give this info to the government/authority when asked.

    The fact that such a system even exists is obviously an invitation for hackers: gaining access to this sekret app means you can find out the DOX/identity of any gmail user.

    The biggest laugh is the major reason behind google building this spy app: The US Patriot Act. Apparently it was the US government which “forced” google to build this app so that it can use google to monitor users from all over the world in an effort to fight “terrorism” (though no one ever really defined the term). Now Google is pretending to be upset that other governments are attempting to abuse it. If Google REALLY want to make a stance against government abuse, it would renounce secretly collecting private info on its users period.

    • Highly interesting.

      Since I somehow doubted that Google would retreat just because they have ‘only’ like 30% of market-share in China, of course, this makes sense now… In the end, international corporations are still working by the rules of realpolitik.

      • Hmm, I think it’s becoming more clear how and why would google got hacked, it’s still unclear why would google threaten to leave China now.

        A lot of the “analysts” mentioned about how google “only” has 30% of the market share and how google can improve its “brand name” by uncensoring its chinese site. But the whole angle of China Inc. vs. Foreign companies has not been explored enough. To me the main reason google is acting way is to protest how the Chinese government is favoring its domestic competitors. The big news about google before this announcement (and the Nexus one) was that the Chinese government was targeting google and mostly only google in the copyright lawsuits. Google China’s top exec Lee voiced similar complaints before he left google to start up his own domestic venture last year. This “Chinese government favors domestic firms” message resonates well with other Western firms hoping to tap the Chinese market. I think Google has gained support from some of its competitors like yahoo because of this.

        Now that the Chinese government made its point clear not be budge, the ball is in google’s court again. I hope that google does not quit China though.

        • If this is true, that google did this as ‘protest’ against the supremacy of chinese enterprises in the domestic market, then there’s absolutely no reason to fear that google actually retreats in real.
          What google did, was simply a bluff, since the fact that google actually did all this to help their business in China, is proof enough, that they didnt actually wanted to abbandon the chinese market.

          Now, Google is actually at the short end of the stick; They aroused so much western sympathy with their ‘lighting the torch of freedom’, while China didnt gave in to their demands. Now, since the threat was just a silly bluff, THEY are the one’s losing the face for kotau’ing before the machiavellian communist overlords in the end.

          of course it is based on the assumption that Google is acting pragmatist and not ideological here. But anyway; worser PR than the torch relay of 2008, this little mocking isnt…

        • LOLZ,

          C’mon, does a vague statment that companies operating in China have to obey Chinese law really count as China’s move in this regard? Google has requested a meeting with the government. The ball is in the government’s court until the meeting is done or rejected. So far they just stalled while they wait for instructions.

  13. Google has one core asset, and it is an
    intellectual property.

    It appears that hackers went after 34 other companies.
    This exposes Google to serious legal liabilities,outside
    of China. This adds considerable risks (and cost)to Goggles global operations.

    China is juggleing chain saws (real estate bubbles, unsecured loans, Etc. Etc.)
    The world financial crisis is far from over.
    Tradewars are (almost)inevitable.

    • Stealing IP from hacking is so hit and miss that I doubt it is at all viable. Companies like Google aren’t idiots and are very protective of their IP.

      Its probably a better idea just to hire the entire Chinese staff of Google once they get laid off.

      • I think most people don’t realise how hard it is to hack into a well guarded system, not less by Google, and obtain valuable information. Its a whole different kettle of fish than email scamming a pensioner.

  14. +1dim mak says:
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 4:57 pm
    “When searching for AV girls, I will think of Baidu Baike”

    There’s no AV girls on baidu baike.. wtf is that guy smoking

    And Google would be majorly stupid to pull out of China… think of the profit loss.. I bet they won’t do it in the end.

    THEY’VE DONE IT, IN EFFECT, ALREADY. IDIOT.

  15. What I don’t understand is why there are so many comments on this site pointing out the “lack of logic” on Google’s end. Isn’t it obvious that this is a “last straw” situation? Google took a goodwill hit in entering the Chinese market at all by making concessions to censor their search resualts so as to comply with Chinese law. And that was cool. But then since they’ve done that, the government has consistently attacked Google’s credibility through a corrupt mouthpiece. Some even suggest that the reasoning for that was because they didn’t contribute money to the Chinese spring festival gala like Baidu did. Then, there comes a cyber attack that very clearly originates from government sources? Lots of people are saying, “Relax, Chinese people have been hacking for years, you’re not the only ones,” but that doesn’t change the fact that a) it happening to other people doesn’t justify it happening to Google and b) the focus of the attack clearly indicates that it originated from the Chinese government itself.

    Why should a multi-billion dollar company with the best name brand in the world suffer such arrogance and continued slaps in the face? Would you want to? This is clearly Google saying, “That’s it, we’ve had enough of this horseshit arrogance.”

    • Josh,

      Exactly.

    • Money isn’t a good enough reason? Google is a business you know.

      • I’ll direct you somewhere above where someone states that the Chinese market comprises 2% of Google’s global profits. With the Nexus One coming out, Chrome on the up in terms of users, and a continually rising amount of Google reader users, I’d say Google can afford to lose the Chinese market in exchange for a massive good will increase around the world.

        People say, “Oh, but what about how big the Chinese internet market will be in the future?” Future being the operative word. In the future, a lot more Chinese will also have an effective command of the English language. Google.com is not blocked in China, and any Chinese internet user who knows the word “search” in English can use it. It also offers Chinese search results, just as google.cn. Think about it practically. How much difference does having google.cn really make considering that anyone in China can use google.com anyway?

        • Josh- don’t forget that Google will almost certainly be blocked if they pull out. Unless the government decides that might look too obviously spiteful, but you know, with their record, I doubt it.

          • It’d be nice if Google kept it’s Google.cn address, let it go unfiltered, moved their offices to Taiwan, and included instructions about how users could circumvent the firewall. I mean, they’ve already taken off the gloves saying they hate the censorship bullshit. Why not take it all the way?

    • You are making a huge deal out of companies getting hacked by foreign governments. I would not be surprised if NSA or equivalent hacks foreign companies and governments all the time, the difference is that usually these things are kept under better lids.

      Agreed that Google is tired of the getting an unfair deal, though one would think that a multi-billion dollar company makes its decisions on business forecasts than raw emotions. Either way, I don’t think most people are remotely qualified to say whether this is a good business decision on the long run, but they allow their political ideologies to sway their opinions anyway.

      • a) the operative words in your post being “I wouldn’t be surprised if…”

        b) NSA attacks on foreign companies don’t justify Chinese government attacks on Google. This is the definition of a straw man.

        True, none of us our qualified to make the call. This is, in fact, my best guess from the information available. But you would think that other people on this forum would understand the possibility of alternative reasons as well.

    • Yup, it’s funny how the Chinese government doesn’t understand the rest of the world won’t put up with it AND the rest of the world thinks they’re a pathetic, corrupt joke and will tell them that’s what they think.

  16. very interesting article.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gues-post-google%E2%80%99s-mysterious-threat-pull-out-china-covert-war-brewing-between-us-and-china

    Basically it’s the US trying to pull a second Iran in China again.

    I hope that the celestial kingdom will be strong enough to mercilessly crush that attempt.

  17. http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&source=hp&q=tianamen+&btnG=Google+%E6%90%9C%E7%B4%A2&aq=f&oq=

    its working perfect just try google.cn link below works perfect

  18. 毛豆子:

    NND, no matter who you are, the moment you come to the Celestial Kingdom, you will be castrated.

    Take history please.

  19. How about making SPAM illegal in China? 85% of the SPAM I get comes from China or points to servers in China.

    That type of control I would support!

  20. What value would a censored Google have for chinese netizens?

  21. Living behind the firewall for longer than some of you were born! has never been so difficult, since the Xinjiang Riots, Facebook, YouTube, the Twit site, Torrents, porn (If your into that….) and now google

    My latest laptop purchased here runs “Tomato Garden” hacked version of WindowsXP, I was lucky to buy this before the “Green Dam” fiasco

    anyways going to buy my next laptop in another country

    this Online battle will be fun to watch!

  22. It’s easy to construct Chinese government response and google’s strategy into a game (as in game theory) and find where the equilibrium is ect. I’m sure Google’s had that done way before they make the decision of leaving China and decided that it is safe to do so.
    So, I’d say Google’s got the upper hand, I don’t think anyone in the Chinese government’s gonna construct a game.

  23. Hongjian — That is very logical.
    Greater Internet freedom will lead to civil war and famine, just like my grandparents went through.
    It’s well proven that websites cause starvation. Also chaos and anarchy.

    Also, allowing Google to operate it does in the rest of the world will turn “China into India.”
    And this is all a conspiracy of the West to destroy and put down China. Right. Good points.

    Has it occurred to you that greater technological innovation and freedom of expression might actually help China?
    And that other nations might actually have good intentions in mind?
    BTW. I live in Hong Kong where our Internet is free and unfettered, and people can protest or criticize the government openly.
    It’s one of the richest, most stable places, best-educated places I’ve ever lived. (And I’ve also lived in the U.S., Britain and Canada).

    • So, just like Iran then, where the ‘good intentions’ of the West was realized by inciting riots through twitter and facebook, turning the situation on the streets of a country into something akin to a civil war.
      For a authoritarian technocracy like China, the exposal of the uneducated, aggression-laden and unemployed masses to the ‘truth’ can mean its overthrowal. So dont compare the situation to a city-state, which enjoys a educational- and economical-level of a first-world country.

      If the government is overthrown, it will be anything but ‘stability’ and ‘peace’.

  24. This just reminds, isn’t there a lawsuit between the chinese writer association and google book. Wonder how this will be resolved once google exits China

  25. You’ve got alot of faith in your own people there, Hongjian.
    I sometimes think the rest of the world has more faith in the Chinese than the China itself.

    The Iran comparison is crazy. A dictator, Middle Eastern politics, Islam, nuclear threat — there are many reasons Iran is unstable.

    I don’t think Twitter did it.

    The recent riots were organized by Iranians themselves. Read the papers.

    And don’t blame the tool. Blaming the Internet for China’s vast governmental problems is like saying that telephones caused World War II.

    There’s obviously no point in trying to argue with you.
    You’re bending over backwards to find ways of blaming Google (and, by extension, the entire Western half of the world) for China’s own insecurities.

    Who said Google was going to overthrow the Chinese government? It’s just a big company that got sick of being censored and hacked into — in a country that only made up 2% of their profits anyway.

    If you think denying your fellow citizens the basic right to information is a way of IMPROVING your country — you guys are heading in the wrong direction.

    I wish the best for China. But I’m glad I’m on this side of the border.

    • It has nothing to do with ‘having faith’. Chinese do have faith into their people, but the thinking minority are at least less naiive than western observers and more realistic. We know the Chinese history and the chinese mentality from own expierience, and we know what will happen when the control of a chinese state is weakened by the ordinary folks, emanzipating themselves.
      The last time we had it, it resulted in the communist dynasty overthrowing the old one and ruling us now.

      And the Iranian opposition, who are inciting the riots is evidently backed from the west, that hopes to overthrow the current leadership there because of its nuclear ambitions. Call it good or bad, i dont care. But the facts are there – the ‘free world’ is always using such channels to destabilize their enemies.
      When the Chinese censorship is abolished, I dont want to hear the rantings of the NED-backed ‘Radio Free Asia’, ‘Epoch Times’ and ‘NTDTV’, plus several Free-Tibet groups, inciting riots and protests against the government and disturbing the stability and peace of a country, that is still in a critical and very disturbance-sensitive transition phase.
      In this sense, of course the problems the government is trying to hide, is largely self-made. This is just normal for a country that is hanging between first-world-status in its coastal regions, and medieval-age in its western-provinces. You can say, that Deng-Xiaoping is at fault for doing the economic reforms after all, who are making these problems in the first place. If Chia would remain poor as it was 30 years ago, we wouldnt have to deal with umemployemnt, product quality, corruption and tienanmen. We would just have all starved to death. Simple solution, though.

      Talking about the legitimation of Censorship in general: I just say; Columbus.
      Columbus would have never reached the new world, if he didnt lied (ie. censored) in his log, and to his crew about the real time and distance traveled. He would most probably have been thrown out of the ship during a mutiny, caused by angry and demoralized sailors who where exposed to the truth.

      China is pretty much in the same situation as Columbus now. There’s a goal to reach, but the price on the way to it is very high and the sailors must never know about it.
      This is just pragmatism and machiavellism. We can enjoy the truth and laught about it, when we reached the ‘new world’.

      • Columbus would have never reached the new world, if he didnt lied (ie. censored) in his log, and to his crew about the real time and distance traveled. He would most probably have been thrown out of the ship during a mutiny, caused by angry and demoralized sailors who where exposed to the truth.

        There would have been a mutiny for sure if they had found out. Maybe they would’ve accepted the truth if Columbus had the ability to sell himself, so if you tell us that he had to lie in order to reach India (;), you are revealing your pessimistic attitude.

        China is pretty much in the same situation as Columbus now. There’s a goal to reach

        What goal?

        • The ‘goal’ would be a wealthy, stable, first world nation. Maybe even a more ‘democratic’ one, but not in the western definition. Some kind of enlarged Singapore maybe, a first-world country and nanny-state (or just an outright police-state), with global economic power and major political influence, but not engaged into the status of a world-police or moral-apostle or ‘torchlight of freedom’ or hegemonial-power. Certainly, not a country following the political will of the west, even while being democratic. Maybe like Russia in this regard.

          And this, solely the fact that China wont. ever. be a loyal follower of western supremacy like maybe other asian first-world powers like Japan and Taiwan, will be reason enough for them to not be at peace with each other.
          Just like the post-soviet Russia, who became a democracy, but is still actively acted against by the West, solely for the fact that it still possesses enough independend, unchecked power to be able to refuse western demands.

          So, even if China someday reaches the ‘goal’ of becoming a more liberal and ‘democratic’ great power, there will never be peace with the western world. Simply for the fact that Great Powers will never be able to coexist with other Great Powers.

          • Hear! Hear! You hit the nail on the head! “Freedom, Democracy” or not, China will NEVER be a tail-wagging puppy of the West like some supine countries in Asia.

          • Not just because of the reason of ‘pride’. But more because of the unshable law of political reality.

            The world politcs is a zero-sum game. One gains power, the other inevitably loses power. As simple as that. If China wants to live peacefully with the West, it must give up it’s ambitions of becoming a great power akin to the US, enabling it to cumulate all power and be the sole ruler in the world.

            The world is simply too small for two big countries, no matter whether they are both democratic or both dictatorian.
            In a zero-sum game, theres always a loser, but not always a winner.

    • A Brilliant piece of insight and common sense!

    • “I sometimes think the rest of the world has more faith in the Chinese than the China itself.”

      That’s what the “rest of the world” would like to think. The truth is that unless you are Chinese, you wouldn’t give a shit about China. Even many people in HK and Taiwan don’t give a shit about China. To them China = Mainland = low class scums to ridicule.

      It’s funny that the “rest of the world” is now focusing on changing China, when the worst has been over. Where the heck were the activists and their protests when Mao’s policies were actually killing millions of Chinese decades ago?

      Sure, there are some concepts such as Censorship which would benefit the people of China. But there are also plenty of things which “the rest of the world” are pushing for which are hardly in the best interest of Chinese people (Tibet independence for example). Put it simply, the only reason why other nations want China to act a certain way is because other nations think it would benefit themselves more. That’s how politics work.

      The real truth is that China’s growth directly challenge those in the “freedom loving nations” brainwashed into thinking that their way and only their way would produce positive results. These people cannot accept the fact that an authoritarian nation practicing heavy censorship can succeed the way it does. What’s even more scary is that China is doing better than India, the world’s largest democracy in most areas although they started off near the similar points decades ago. They want to change China because China is a threat to their ideology. Faith in the Chinese people? No, more like faith in seeing China fail under its current path. Because China failing would validate their own beliefs over how government should work.

      • This is just how the western world works.

        Christian Monotheism, and the first commandment – ‘you shall have no other gods before me’ – had a very deep impact on the way the western world is thinking, even after the ‘enlightment’, that suppossedly should’ve ended such thinking.

        The ‘one and only god’ is merely replaced by the ‘one and only’ ideology of democracy and freedom. This is what the western ‘enlightment’ was and is all about. Replace an absolute god, with another absolute god.
        The very same claim of universalism, the same kind of dogmatism and exactly the same inflexibility and intolerance – all remained the same, while producing intellectuals like Francis Fukuyama writing self-satisfied about ‘The End of History’ and the final victory of the ‘western way’ over any other ‘ways’ in this world.

        Just too bad for them, that there is a country like China, that seems to not be working according to their calculations, not within their ‘natural laws’ and is not respecting their claim of ‘universal values’.
        This, of course, is heresy, and must be purged.

        Too bad just, that the best weapon of the western world, it’s capitalist economy, is actually completely free from ideology and morals, and thus helped China to be that giant ideological sacrilege, it is now.

        • Hongjian,

          It’s the sad truth… you are correct. However, I still feel it’s way too easy and simplistic to put everything into the “West vs. East” argument, whether that’s your argument or not. There is not West or East. And comparing current values to the roots of China’s values, where does China stand? We can go back to the new China 101 cliche of everything is about Confucionism. Compare China to the other Confucian countries, right? How different are their values and China’s? Or Buddhism, especially the philosophy side of it? How does the current God-less China stand compared to Hong Kong and Taiwan which are China without the cultural revolution and the death of God? The China you are describing, that is so outside Western “universal values” would also seem to be outside it’s own professed traditional values as well as those of most of the rest of East Asia. I’d love to see your critique of the current China without the focus on the West.

        • The Enlightenment was never supposed to end Christian Monotheism it was just an alternative way of thinking, and that is the issue at hand. Some parts of the CCP do not allow alternative thinking and give all those who think otherwise the stigma “anti Chinese”.
          The Hegel inspired dialectic materialism, which is the foundation of the modern Chinese state, is a true child of The Enlightenment. The ideology of dialectic materialism holds in it the potential to create great material prosperity. The political system under Deng Xiaoping understood how to harness growth from a combination between dialectic materialism and market economy. The problem is that dialectic materialism also holds the view that all other ways of thought are wrong. If an entity does not bring progress in a quantitative measurable sense then it’s suspicious. Not only is it suspicious but it must be forced to understand that progress can only be obtained through material prosperity and thus “die vollständig aufgeklärte Erde strahlt im Zeichen triumphalen Unheils”.
          A pluralistic approach to communication will not bring China to her knees it will on the other hand bring her closer into the international community that is being created in these years. This international community is essential to China, because the stability of China does not derive from control it derives from economic prosperity and the future of Chinese economical growth is imbedded within innovation, free flow of information, rule of law and political accountability. As said earlier the present Friedrich List inspired developmental state approach will not help China in the short or long run.

        • I wouldnt call this a real ‘issue’. The western philosophy and the eastern are naturally different, and both viable and sound. The core problem here is just; that the Western philosophy of enlightment, that is the basis of Western political culture today, has been ironically build upon the teachings, the dogma and even the same methods of the monotheist religion of Christianity. (One should not forget – the main thinkers of the enlightment where all at least raised as faithful christians). The issue here would be the fact, that monotheist religions have the claim of global universalism, that excludes every other ‘god before or beside him’. This very same kind of universalism claim, that now the western ideologies and values are wielding – claiming that only the western way of nation building and only the western political philosophy is the true path to development. Even the ‘Universal Human Rights’ are based on the very same Christian-styled universalism claim. The Communism, a true child of european enlightment, that befell China, wasnt any different. It also claimed an universal validity, that was as ignorant to each nation’s cultural basis, as was the image of God pictured as an bearded, white Caucasian, being ignorant to the fact that ‘whites’ are a global minority, compared to Mongoloids and Black Africans.
          So in this sense, the enlightment wasnt just some ‘alternative way of thinking’, it was claimed to be ‘the only right way of thinking’, in the same style as Chiristianity was claimed to be the only right path to salvation during medieval ages.
          So the western liberal philosophy of pluralism is in fact more a dogma of pluralism, claimed to be the only true path to political and societal salvation.

          And the assumption that modern China is somehow is based on the Hegelian/Marxist dialectics is not really true. I’ve had always the feeling that especially fellow Germans are the last people on earth, who would understand the true discrepance of China being Communist in Name and China being Communist in believe.
          If there’s anything Chinese are good at, it’s to serve multiple lords and to pray to multiple gods, even if these lords and gods are excluding each other outright – so the total opposite to a monotheism based western culture that can only accept one and only one god/ideology/truth, even if the god, ideology or truth declares its tolerance to other gods, ideologies and truth’s.

          The Hegelian thinking, that seems to come with communism, is not really what China is based on – Since the Communism itself is nothing but a farce, an ‘Opium for the Masses’, utilized by a very traditional Chinese Warlord named Mao, to attract support for his power grabbing, and to found his ‘communist’-dynasty, that is in fact just a traditional absolute monarchy with different name. So the ammumption of: China + Communism = Hegelian dialectics, is outright wrong.

          Talking about the Chinese culture and values, not even Confucianism was implemented right. In fact no religion or ideology, had been implemented with being even 50% true-to-the-idea in China.
          Chinese Confucianist philosophy, that is often quoted to be the source of dictatorship and authoritarism, was in fact a very value and virtue based, very (yes) idealistic philosophy. A confucian emperor was not allowed to use force against his people, but should lead with his virtue and mercy for example.
          This, in fact, was far to utopian to be realized as an functioning political and societal culture, so the (actually non-violent) Confucianism, that had an positive view on human nature, was forced to mate with the very violent philosophy of legalism, that denied humanity the ‘right’ of being vurtuous by nature.
          Legalism was pretty much the opposite to Confucianism. Whereas confucianism had an idealist take on societal stability (virtuous people do not commit crime), Legalism was totalitarism incarnate (people are criminal by nature, so you must torture and kill them to make an example).
          Two different ideologies who are excluding each other by nature, two gods who wont accept any other god beside them, fusioned to the very ideology China nowadays is based on: Confucianism with it’s values and virtues of loyalty and obedience as ‘stabilizing and harmonizing’ opium for the masses, Legalism with its totalitarism and brutality as tool of politics for the rulers.
          The same like Communism today – The very utopian and liberal idea of cummunism, mated with traditional authoritarian realpolitik. In modern China’s case; This, fusioned with the pseudo-confucianist Legalism.

          • Not sure I agree on this one.

            “that the Western philosophy of enlightment, that is the basis of Western political culture today, has been ironically build upon the teachings, the dogma and even the same methods of the monotheist religion of Christianity. ”

            but more importantly through the Renaissance and Descartes they embraced the empirical side of Greek philosophy which stood in direct opposition to basic Christian teaching especially the Scholasticism. Nietzsche (raised as a faithful Christian) committed the greatest patricide (or you and I would properly prefer Vatermord) in history by using the ancient Greeks, Scandinavian tribes and other warrior cults, so to bring down any connection between his “enlightenment” and the monotheist religion of Christianity. True Kant was a good Christian, but he rejected basic Christian metaphysics (Die menschliche Vernunft hat das besondere Schicksal in einer Gattung ihrer Erkenntnisse: dass sie durch Fragen belästigt wird, die sie nicht abweisen kann, denn sie sind ihr durch die Natur der Vernunft selbst aufgegeben, die sie aber nicht beantworten kann; denn sie übersteigen alles Vermögen der menschlichen Vernunft.) in order to bring reason within the frames of man.

            This brings me to your next point.

            “So the western liberal philosophy of pluralism is in fact more a dogma of pluralism, claimed to be the only true path to political and societal salvation”

            No because a dogma does not hold within itself the acceptance of it own destruction. A multiparty pluralistic state with freedom of speech accepts those who advocate or seeks its destruction (within it’s own set rules of course), something an authoritative state does not. And when I quoted Horkheimer and Adorno above it was because enlightenment was the tendencies you mention. It becomes a dogma, the dogma of the quantification. A democratic state offers Universal suffrage but you seem to focus on universal and not suffrage, which means that the universality can be ended.

            Since the Communism itself is nothing but a farce, an ‘Opium for the Masses’, utilized by a very traditional Chinese Warlord named Mao, to attract support for his power grabbing, and to found his ‘communist’-dynasty,

            I would not reduce the ideology of the CCP to being ramblings of a Warlord (you must be thinking of the国民党). Especially the ideological work created in the 1950ies with regard to 我国社会主义建设的第一个五年计划 were decisive for developing China and this work was indeed inspired by dialectic materialism. See the first part of the 1956-1967年科学技术发展远景规划纲要(修正草案)for this claim 我国在这个大革命的前夕进行社会主义建设,只有充分利用现代一切科学技术成就,并通过自己的努力来充实和发展这些成就,才能保证社会生产力的不断提高

            China is built on dialectic materialism and thus an understanding of development as material development, which had a profound impact on the nation. I think Mao saved China for becoming Indian in the sense that he understood that in order to create a communist paradise and support the dialectic materialism, he would first have to strengthen the position of the 农民 something only an idealist would do not a warlord…..

  26. I don’t think people understand the consequences of these actions. Basically a Fortune 500 company is saying that the United States foreign policy of ‘engagement’ with China is a failure. Google has a lot of clout with the new Obama administration and with Nancy Pelosi. During the first Bush administration it was the Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi that lead the charge to impose sanctions and reject Most Favorable Nation status with China. This is an interesting turn of events. Google is telling China, if you want us to follow your laws then the Celestial Kingdom (Communist Party and PLA) need to follow the laws too.

  27. Hongjian — I don’t mean all this personally toward you. I just think it’s the wrong path for China.

    When my grandparents fled China before WW2, Hong Kongers and Mainland Cantonese were probably equally poor and uneducated. My grandmother was illiterate.

    On one side of the border were free newspapers and a population who could complain about everything from police brutality to the price of ferry tickets. There was also much investment in education, plus a (relatively) clean government.

    On the other side of the border, there was fierce censorship, no criticism and a one-state Communist government.

    Sure, Hong Kong had a few demonstrations and bumps on the way. And I am no big fan of colonialism. But freedom made Hong Kong grow. Meanwhile, the mainland wasted maybe 40 years during the Cultural Revolution, etc.

    As you point out, look at the differences between the two places now.

    I think the Google problem has pointed out that China is at a fork in the road. Which way will it go?

    • Again, Hongkong is a small place, colonized by the british who where implementing the highly efficient and corruption-proof western beaurocracy. Additional controls by british officials who arent following the corrupt Chinese tradition of Guangxi-building, made this city-state very effective. Also, wasnt this a motto of Hongkong? First wealth – then democracy?

      You just cant compare Hongkong with the Mainland. I know these argumentations. Here in Germany, there are also naiive people, claiming that we should adopt the democratic system of Switzerland; the system ‘Direct Democracy’ instead of our system of ‘Representative Democracy’.
      People who know anything about politics and society, all warn about such an easy assumption, that ‘what works there, must also work here’.
      Germany is a democratic coutntry with a long, liberal tradition of free-thinking intelligensia. But even with such a ‘fitting soil’ for the implementation of an different, but also democratic system, the Model of the small country of Switzerland still wont work in a thousand years.

      • Interesting that while you were talking about Switzerland and direct democracy you didn’t mention the ‘Minarettenverbot’. I heard opinions seeing this as an example for a disadvantage of the direct democratic system.

        • Yeah, the ‘Minarettenverbot’ is pretty much the epitome of direct democracy and actually the ‘nice version’ of Mob-law. This happens when ‘the ordinary people’ are allowed to decide directly over complex political decisions. The ‘mob’ tends to follow populist and rightist policies, in sake to ‘save the future of our children’.

          And this kind of democratic system, some retards in Germany are advocating for being applied to 80 million people of the most different educational level.
          Duh, I dont really trust the judgement of an Emre, Yussuf, Serda or Türkan, living off Hartz IV in Berlin, Neuköln to directly decide over the Health-Care Policy, or a Mike, Dennis and Sven in Hamburg, Steilshoop to judge over the military spending in a ‘people’s votum’, for that matter.

  28. Google is a company that serves clients. If using Google is seen as insecure, even by laypeople (let alone big business interests), investors will pull out of Google. As great a market as China is–er, could be someday sans CCP monkey business–it may not be as important yet as the existing domestic investors who may well uninvest if Google is the kind of company that lets itself (and its investors) enjoy daily rogering by CCP pseudo-hackers.

    This is, after all, theft we’re talking about. Not “hacking,” but theft of private technical information and intellectual property.

  29. The CCP had put their spies inside Google China and stolen the source code – thus threatening all of Google. The CCP has cost China dearly.

  30. I have this feeling after google pull out, the CCP will most likely notice it screw themselves up as well. But again, they prob “love their face” too much to invite them back even if they have to drag every people living in China to hell with them, the CCP will consider their “face” first.

  31. if google leaves i am leaving

  32. Since when did the CCP become serious hackers?

  33. as sure as the sun will come up mingtain, China will one day become a democracy! The only thing that frightens me is how much innocent Chinese blood has to be shed to make it so. I hope none! But this Google thing is only a step along the way! For example to rob a student or a netizen of where he may search for information is theft of his or her freedom of choice!

  34. “Why did Google suddenly distrust its Chinese team? After all, they developed their own codes and they should be more efficient in making the migration.

    The only reason is that the Chinese Communist Party must have inserted special agents inside Google (specifically in the Shanghai office of Google).

    The truth of the matter is that this person was sent by the Chinese Communist Party. After being hired by Google, this person copied down the critical program code and handed it over the the Chinese Communist Party.”

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/201001b.brief.htm#012

    The original Chinese article on Douban has already been removed:

    http://www.douban.com/note/57037189/

  35. Umm, there are many Chinese only welcome Gucci(foreign goods,especially the luxuries)but not Google, I call it the “Gucci Yes Google No” import system.

  36. anyone who finds freedom a threat is a moron. The only time freedom has ever beed a threat throughout history has been “limited freedom”. I think therefore I am. We are what we think – our ideals, our morals, our dreams, our fears. All of which are predicated on the freedom to discover who you are – the freedom to chose between the bs and the truth. Anyone who believes less information is better and that this has anything to do with respecting each others’ laws and viewpoints should be shot, because there is a good chance in the future you will be shot by a frightened little child government who doesn’t want the truth to be known.

  37. You have to follow the local law, wherever you maybe! Be it in US, China or anywhere. We have to learn to respect the culture and practice of our host.

  38. Censorship and cyber-spying are not the culture of the Chinese people or their practice. It is a law from the government to protect . . . oh, the government. Stop trying to say that this is a “respect” issue. I had to listen to 30 minutes of that bs on Dialogue last night.

  39. i think this is more of a marketing stunt, though a risky one.

  40. Thank You CHINESE GOVERNMENT! Everyday, Google is getting more and more free advertising from this event. More and more Chinese will want to read on “why” Google is upset…and they will become enlightened.

    “The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.”

    ………………..Thomas Jefferson

  41. In China, one does not enjoy basic human right to freedom of speech. There is no so-called “Human Right” in China. China is notorious for this. Google should move out from China.

  42. Google should re-open in Taiwan. That would make the Chinese Government very happy.

    Cheers to Google for being the first company of it’s size to turn down profits which could be had by giving more power to the Fascist Chinese Government.

    Chinese Communism can not have a Capitalist Element, Chinese Fascism CAN have a Capitalist element to “communicate” with the world, only through profits and slave labor.

    Look at Hitler and Mussolini there were thousands of Companies using the captured slave labor\”citizens” of both Fascist groups to work for cheap and the capitalists would make the dough for the Fascist leaders. Sound like China?

    Schindler’s List anyone?

  43. foreign companies please stop doing business, in China, Mercedes Benz, Ferrari, Rolex, Google, Louis Vuitton ! They are not welcome in China. Don’t you see that the government make everything possible to make life difficult to all foreign companies in China ? Let’s see if Chinese people will survive without the global economy, the brands they like, the machine they need, technology brought by the west. Many foreign websites can not be accessed from China, while Baidu can be accessed easily anywhere in the world. So every government in the world should warn the government that if they don’t let foreign company operate in China normally, they will not let chinese company operate normally abroad. Don’t be weak and demand reciprocity on everything. Why China should get more and give less ?

  44. I am aware that the Chinese government favors Baidu and has shown prejudice against foreign owned e-companies, but from your standpoint wouldn’t SOME profit be better than NO profit?

  45. Isn’t that how business usually works? You take the risks and invest or GTFO. Investing in China paid off nicely for GM last year and likely for years to come, and rest of the world think GM is a joke of a company.

    And what’s so bad about government backed competitors? Toyota, GM, Samsung, etc. are all backed up by the local governments. If they and the “Han industrial profiteers” can make a product which sells less that’s good for consumers.

    Finally, it’s damn smart of the Chinese government to force foreign companies to partner with domestic groups if they want to sell in China. It protects the economy and local people. If the US did that it would not be in the same economic slump it is in today.

  46. I agree with you XMCX. This is a big threat to businesses in China. After development of the business, government policies can be used against foreign businesses to ensure that domestic companies enjoy the lions share of the market over the long term, ultimately forcing the foreign entity who helped build the market to take a smaller market share or even leave the country.

  47. Would you feel the same way if the situation were reversed, or if it were your company who provides the know-how and experience who were forced to work with another company and share profits because it was a local company…

  48. Too bad Westerners assume protectionism is evil right off the bat, it’s like some kind of taboo here.

  49. Really? I had a Yahoo themed wedding. It sucked because I had to give my guest book to the Chinese government and my best man was jailed for 10 years.
    :-(

  50. your argument failed at “what if”

  51. it’s unfair.
    Being backed up by an artificial entity called state causing trouble.

  52. Some of the loudest criticisms of protectionism have come from Chinese officials. Case in point:

    http://www.938live.sg/News/Business/EDC091228-0000116/Wen_Jiabao_blasts_trading_partners_protectionism,_vows_to_not_yield_to_yuan_appreciation_pressure

    As for your assetion that Westerners assume that protectionism is bad right off the bat, perhaps you don’t read Paul Krugman, who asserts the contrary:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/opinion/01krugman.html?th&emc=th

    In effect, Krugman is right. There is nothing wrong with protectionism in some cases. Of course, the China debate is over whether China’s protectionism is EXCESSIVE, not over whether or not the country has the right to protect some industries. All countries do this, to an extent.

  53. You overlook the potential to build profit in other markets. Google is an international enterprise, and its Chinese ops only contribute around 3 percent of the company’s revenue. So when you say, “think of the profit loss”, I ask, “where is the corporate cataclysm?”

    Incidentally, your suggestion that the profits Google can make in China should make the company want to stay in China are similar to the viewpoint of the Xiang Ligang blog post above. The basic idea is that China has a large market, and Google would be silly to not want to do business there.

    This viewpoint is short-sighted. Xiang, and you, seem think that China has become so important that international corporations can’t be as successful without doing business in China.

    If Google’s announcement (which may or may not be political theater) raises the company’s reputation in several other markets, thus strengthening Google’s position vis a vis Microsoft and Yahoo, Google may actually gain from making this announcement, or even from withdrawing from China.

    It is and has always been a fallacy to imagine that companies will proft/be successful just by being in China, just as it would be a fallacy to imagine that a multinational from any third country would NEED to be in the US (for example) to profit/be successful.

  54. Its the only way greedy Chinese people know for making more money, blame foreigners while claiming to be insulted and curry favor with even greedier people above. No heart and No soul. But he’ll be going to hell anyway!

  55. I would dress up as Sailor Moon and place the Japanese flag on Dokdo before I take posting advice from King 7%

  56. Then google isn’t very smart. Whatever the numbers are right now, to ignore what is going to be (if it isn’t already) the single biggest internet using population in the world within the next 20 years is foolish and short-sighted for a business who apparently claims to have a global strategy.

  57. There is this wonderful modern technology called the Internet, where you can connect to any computer from any other computer on Earth. Let’s say Google totally pulls out from China, does this prevent Chinese hackers from infiltrating Google servers? You know the answer, and so does Google.

    As for the stealing statement. You should find out how many top engineers/researchers working at Google are Mainland Chinese (in the US). If the percentage shocks you, then it should also shock you to find out that China have even greater number of talent, and there is absolutely no need to steal from such a company.

    This is just a cheap PR attempt from Google, nothing more.

  58. Baidu is often described in the press as China’s “home-grown” internet portal and search service, as though its native parentage somehow explains the company’s reported pliancy in acquiescing to government censorship demands. In fact, however, Baidu’s financing is as American as the dot-coms of Internet 1.0.

    Baidu received its initial funding from American venture capital firms, including Draper Fisher Jurvetson and IDG Technology Venture. (Google itself was an early-stage investor, but sold off its interest in Baidu as it was deciding to expand into the Chinese market). Baidu was taken public by American investment banks and law firms. Its stock (symbol: BIDU) trades on the NASDAQ exchange. And it is today majority-owned by institutional investors with names like Fidelity and Morgan Stanley.

    Not surprisingly, Baidu’s stock rose sharply on news of its competitor’s confrontation with Chinese government authorities.(Google’s stock declined, but not much). Baidu’s American investors will reap a windfall if, as seems plausible, Baidu soon finds itself a monopolist in the business of internet search in the world’s biggest internet market. But should they?

    From HuffPo.

  59. On Huanqiu? Here: http://www.huanqiu.com/content_comment.php?tid=687998&mid=1&cid=387

    Most of them mockingly say “oh, he’s mentally ill, France should set him free” in reference to the British smuggler, but some of them are disgustingly offensive- yet par for the course on Huanqiu. Here’s a good sample: “肯 定又是他妈的法国佬把我们这位民族英雄逼得没有退路了。咋不多捅死几个!!”

  60. True. Sometimes I’m living in Germany and sometimes I’m in China for a while, when the semester-vacations and university-workload allows it.

  61. But you have just the German citizenship?

  62. considering that China’s ‘goal’ is not to become the same sort of Superpower and World-Police like the US, but more a mere Regional Great Power and economical giant without a global political/ideological supremacy-claim like Western powers, the ‘slaughtered Indians’ will most probably be those Chinese people again, who are acting against the celestial kingdom, incited by the continuous propagations and agitations of dissents, backed by western powers who will never, ever accept China as a peer, and will always try to bring it down with any means possible.
    This is the fate of anyone, ‘not accepting the Western way’ of nation-building. Not accepting the claimed ideological supremacy and universalism of values of an established, self-proclaimed ‘free world’, claiming to represent the pinnacle of humanity’s political development.
    As long as China refuses to acknowledge that they are ‘wrong’ and ‘ideologically inferior’ to the ‘free world’, they will have to continue slaughtering those poor ‘indians’.

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