Hong Kong & Mainland China Tensions: Mothers, Tourists, Cars

Mainland China vs. Hong Kong mothers.

Mainland mothers. Mainland tourists. Mainland politics. The tensions between Hong Kong and China have never been GREATER. What are the reasons behind this current spate of hate? And what solutions, if any, do we have left?

By Shirley Zhao and Time Out staff
Illustration by escape.hk

The most surprising thing about Hong Kong today is that so little has changed in the public’s view of China since the Handover 15 years ago. Just like in 1997, the citizens of Hong Kong are worried about a ‘red government’ spreading its ‘white terror’. There are rumblings that local tycoons might leave with all their money, and that new tycoons from up north will step in with their ‘red capital’ to collude with the new administration. ‘Hong Kong has reached a tipping point’ is the phrase of the day with our media commentators. And almost everyone believes that Hong Kong will ‘tip’, for better or worse. But at a time when the shift of power is changing both here and in Beijing, people are panicked. And our dark, deep-seated psychological fears are once again coming out to play.

Only one thing is certain: Hong Kong’s future is tied to China’s future. Over these past 15 years, the borders have opened, the rail tracks interlinked and the bridges built to form a seamless superhighway with the Pearl River Delta. But curiously, although convenient cross-border transport has brought about better communication, the much ballyhooed ‘integration’ of Hong Kong and Mainland China has failed to materialise. Physically, Hong Kong is closer than ever to China; psychologically, we are chasms apart.

On February 1, a group of Hongkongers sponsored a full-page advertisement in the popularist Apple Daily newspaper, vehemently protesting against Mainland mothers who cross the border to give birth here, and requesting Mainland tourists to ‘respect local cultures’. ‘Hong Kong people have had enough!’ ran the tagline. The sensational advert also showed a giant locust looming over the HK skyline. As we all know, Hong Kong citizens have been calling Mainland resource-drainers ‘locusts’ for a long while. But this time the plague seems to be a very definite reality.

The shocking locust advertisement brought the integration row back to a scorching boil, along with heated quarrels and nationalistic finger pointing. Behind the chaos, however, it was obvious that Hong Kong was feeling ever more insecure and anxious about the ‘one country, two systems’ set-up. Indeed, the very fabric of Hong Kong’s culture now feels at stake. People’s helplessness, even powerlessness, is palpable everywhere.

 
Of course, Hong Kong jealously guards its key values – the rule of law, the free market, the importance of freedom of speech and the pursuit of universal suffrage. But the Mainland’s way of doing things, in Hong Kong’s eyes, goes against everything we believe to be self-evident. Many of the Hong Kong’s older generation are early immigrants, fleeing the Communist Party rule to make a new home on the fragrant harbour. The younger generation, under the influence of these elders, still has fresh memories of Tiananmen Square. These are the foundation blocks of our modern thinking, and it is an unspoken fact that Hong Kong simply doesn’t trust the Mainland government, and that the Politburo is to be feared and hated.

To ease the uncertainty about the Handover, the central government promised Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy, independent judicial and economic systems, and a way of life that ‘shall remain unchanged for 50 years’. With cautious expectation, the city reunited with their Mainland cousins. People thought they would have the power to decide their own future but, from where the city stands today, Beijing’s influence is stronger than ever before and the promise of universal suffrage appears more like a dream than a reality.

Economically, Hong Kong has been more and more dependent on the Mainland since 1997. When Hong Kong was suffering during the downturn in 2003, a free trade agreement allowed HK goods free access to the Mainland’s growing market, and various Mainland industries also opened up to our city. Growing tourism from the Mainland has been energising many local industries ever since, and more Mainland companies are listed on Hong Kong’s stock market. Today, we are no longer independent from China. That dream, as we said, is over. But has a new nightmare begun?

 
Look at our commercial situation. With no law to regulate the property market monopoly, the development of local small and medium-sized businesses is highly limited. An unequal distribution of wealth further widens the gap between the rich and the poor, causing serious social problems. These problems have become especially unbearable when an overwhelming tide of Mainland lower and middle-class people rush in and compete for our already limited resources and overcrowded social welfare. And all the while, the Hong Kong government has strangely (and suspiciously) remained inactive. Naturally, Hong Kong people are infuriated.

The major concern, of course, is the ‘delay’ in universal suffrage. Our common Hong Kong people, facing inflation and a widening wealth gap every year, had hoped they could one day elect their own Chief Executive to form an administration for the people, so that the citizens of Hong Kong could decide their own future. Not a chance of it. The ‘intangible hand’ of Beijing manipulated last month’s result, and even though the media reported that the Liaison Office of the central government called the election committee members asking them to vote for one candidate, the hoplessness of the situation has now deepened to uncharted depths.

 
So how does all this fear and paranoia and loathing and hopelessness manifest itself on a social level? Simple – we need to lash out. We need someone to blame. Step forward the Mainland individual, specifically the Mainland mother-to-be. She’s the one to blame. But really, any Mainlander will do.

Just look at them – cutting lines, speaking loudly, spitting, shouting, letting their kiddies shit in the street, crowding the MTR, acting rudely. How uncouth, how uncivilised they are. This is what many Hongkongers are saying today. You, dear reader, may be thinking the same thing. You may feel disrespected in your own home, your own city. You may feel outraged when the government tries to push the Putonghua language on our TV shows, on our radio and in our schools. Do we feel we have had enough? Or is there an element of over-reaction to it all? Let’s start by taking a look at those dastardly mothers-to-be…

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Pregnant Chinese mother in a hospital waiting room.

Attack of the Mainland Mothers

An examination of the ‘plague’ on our public health system.

By Shirley Zhao

According to media reports, they are rude, unreasonable and uncivilised. They buy or lie or cheat their way into our hospital beds just to make sure that Hong Kong’s taxpayers tend to their children for the rest of their lives. They are parasites. They are invading our beautiful city and they need to be stopped.

Meet the Mainland mothers-to-be: scourge of Hong Kong, enemies of the SAR.

According to statistics from the Hospital Authority, last year there were 41,846 babies born to Mainland mothers here, almost 44 percent of all newborns in Hong Kong, and over four times more than in 2003. Over 85 percent of the babies were born to Mainland couples (17 times more than in 2003), the rest were Mainland mothers with Hong Kong husbands. A 2001 case in the Court of Final Appeal affirmed that Chinese citizens born in Hong Kong enjoy the right of abode regardless of the Hong Kong immigration status of their parents. Since a 2003 Hong Kong-Mainland agreement enabled free trade and individual Mainland tourists to visit Hong Kong, the number of Mainland mothers rushing into the SAR has been growing so fast, and in such a short time, that the government, known to be frugal on public spending, has been left bewildered and unprepared. It could be argued that the government’s inability to address the situation has further deepened an already sensitive social problem on the city’s collective conscious.

But what has been the real impact of Mainland mothers in Hong Kong? How have they stretched our so-called ‘fragile system’? Why do they come here in the first place? And what will be their children’s, and Hong Kong’s, future?

The Pressured Public Hospital System

In 2011, over 10,000 babies born to Mainland mothers were delivered in our public hospitals, or 32 percent of the public hospital total. Around 4,000 were born to Mainland couples. According to Anthony Wu Ting-yuk, chairman of the Hospital Authority, the public hospital system can generally handle around 45,000 childbirth cases each year. The capacity should have been enough for the 42,000 babies born in the system last year, if all Mainland mothers had followed a proper booking-to-birth-giving procedure. Yet when public hospitals stopped accepting booking applications by Mainland mothers from last April through the rest of the year, it prompted many Mainland mothers to rush into public emergency wards just as they were about to give birth. Last year, there were 1,657 Mainland mothers giving birth in emergency wards – 75 percent did so without booking – twice more than in 2010. Meanwhile, immigration officials also successfully blocked 1,930 Mainland mothers without booking from crossing the border.

Hong Kong’s public emergency wards are known for their staff shortages, and non-urgent patients usually need to wait over 90 minutes to get treated. Without a booking, Mainland women who have been pregnant for 28 weeks or longer are not allowed to cross the border to Hong Kong. But some of those who managed to get through came under a tourist visa when their pregnancy was still not visibly obvious, normally a few months before their pregnancy due date. They took accommodation in small hotels here, overstayed till the due day, then rushed into the emergency wards. Others drastically chose to go to the border and cry for help as their labour pains set in, thereby forcing immigration officials to send them to the nearest hospital.

North District Hospital, a public hospital without departments of obstetrics and gynaecology, paediatrics and neonatal intensive care unit (NICU), saw 180 cases of Mainland mothers attempting to use its emergency ward to give birth, solely for the fact that the hospital is close to the border.

Kitchell Abdul Karim Bin, manager of the emergency department of North District Hospital, says they try to transfer most cases to the nearby public Prince of Wales Hospital, but in urgent cases they have to take the Mainlanders themselves, which not only soaks up staff numbers and time, but is dangerous to both mother and baby as well. “These mothers are risking their lives,” Bin says, “but it’s also unfair to other patients waiting in the emergency ward. If a mother comes in the evening, we could employ up to 40 percent of staff in our department to help her give birth.”

Most Mainland mothers who choose to give birth in emergency wards have never had a prenatal examination, thus adding many unknown dangers of childbirth, and many of their newborns often suffer from various health problems and need to be tended to in public hospitals’ NICUs, which have a total of only 100 beds. At the same time, private hospitals also keep transferring babies to public hospitals’ NICUs (there were 354 in 2010). According to Anthony Wu Ting-yuk, the public hospitals’ NICUs have been consistently overloaded. Currently, the charge for using emergency wards to give birth is $48,000 per woman. In order to reduce such cases, the government is considering raising the price to at least $70,000.

Who Gets The Profits?

Last year, over 90 percent of babies born to Mainland parents were delivered in private hospitals, where the quota for Mainland mothers was 31,000. With public hospitals fully booked, richer Mainland parents had no problem choosing private ones that charge much more, ranging from tens of thousands of dollars to hundreds of thousands; and private hospitals, eyeing huge profits, were more than happy to provide their beds.

According to a report released in December last year by Hong Kong Consumer Council, in 2011, 90 percent of private hospitals raised the prices of their ‘delivery service sets’. Precious Blood Hospital raised theirs nearly 50 percent, the highest of all. Meanwhile, complaints about the private hospitals’ delivery services also increased from three cases in 2010 to 26 in the first 11 months of last year. Most of these complaints were about additional and unexplained charging. The Consumer Council believes the huge demand from Mainland couples pushed up the prices.

Ambrose Ho Pui-him, vice-chairman of the Consumer Council, urges all the private hospitals in Hong Kong to list out the prices of every service included in the service packages. “It’s their responsibility to be more transparent to the public, so that it’ll be easier to supervise and cause fewer arguments,” says Ho.

However Alan Lau Kwok-lam, chairman of the Hong Kong Private Hospitals Association, says the delivery process is complicated and unpredictable. “The prices of the sets can only cover the basics,” says Lau. “Any additional services provided during delivery will be charged independently.” The increasing profits in the private market also attract experienced gynaecologists and nurses from the public hospitals to cross sides. Since 2007, the public hospitals have been losing about five percent of staff related to childbirth each year.

Destination Hong Kong

Why are so many Mainland couples willing to spend so much money, and so much risk, to have their babies born in Hong Kong? For the middle classes living in neighbouring Guangdong province, giving their children Hong Kong’s permanent residency could mean free and better education, government-subsidised medication, and better social welfare. For the nouveau riche coming from Shanghai, Beijing or even Dalian, permanent residency and its related benefits may not be as important as being able to have a second child.

Waiting outside the maternity ward in the public Tuen Mun Hospital, Mr Wang tells Time Out that he and his wife have travelled between Shanghai and Hong Kong four times, after they decided to give their second child a Hong Kong identity. “We’ve spent about $80,000 on this,” says Wang, who would not give his full name. “Because I’m still in Hong Kong, you know how intense the situation is these days.”

The couple already has a girl, but Wang says his mother wants to have a grandson. “Based on my income, having a second child in Shanghai would mean a fine of almost 300,000 yuan,” says Wang. And if the Shanghai government find out they have a second child, they will certainly be fined. “Of course I’m nervous about being found out,” he says, “but what can I do? My mum’s not in good health. I want to do something to please her.”

Wang also worries about the costs of raising a ‘foreign child’ in Shanghai. “Indeed, my child will have rights to all social welfare in Hong Kong, but he’s got to live in Shanghai, at least before college. We can only send him to private or international schools there, which requires a lot of tuition fees.” Wang wants his children to go to college and then work in Hong Kong. “I have very good impressions of this city,” he says. “Everything is effective, convenient and in order. People are more civilised, although sometimes I do feel the city is too small.”

Living in Lo Wu, Shenzhen, Xuan Lidan gave birth to her son in the private Hong Kong Baptist Hospital in 2009. “I want him [her son] to have schooling in Hong Kong,” says Xuan. “Hong Kong’s education is better than in the Mainland. He will have a better future. And we live close to the border so it’ll be convenient for him to cross the border for school.”

Last year, Xuan took her son to a public hospital in Hong Kong three times. “The medical service in Hong Kong is also better,” she says. “Every time I went to the hospital, I always found some parents around me speaking in Putonghua, and some were quite rude. Although we Mainland mothers feel for each other, we don’t like those [other mothers] who behave badly either.”

Speaking of Hong Kong citizens’ general disapproval of Mainland mothers, Xuan looks uneasy. “As a parent, I don’t think it wrong to want to give my son a better future,” she says finally. “I didn’t go to give birth illegally. I went because the government allowed me.”

Mainland Baby Boom statistics from 2001 to 2011.

Mainlanders’ Hong Kong children

Although not every Mainland mother’s Hong Kong child is currently enjoying the city’s social welfare services, the numbers have been steadily increasing, which is what worries local parents.

According to research conducted by the Hospital Authority, between January 6 to January 19 this year, a total of 1,624 children were transferred from emergency wards to paediatrics departments in 12 local public hospitals with these two departments. Among them were 104 with Mainland parents, and over 200 were with Hong Kong-Mainland parents. In other words, Mainland mothers’ children accounted for approximately 20 percent. The authority says when their Hong Kong children suffer from serious problems, Mainland parents tend to have them treated in local public hospitals. These children further challenge the already troubled local public hospital system, where staff and resources are shorted and unequally distributed. The authority estimates that the system needs at least 39 more paediatricians to maintain the current standard of services.

Chan Hin-biu, chief in service of the public United Christian Hospital’s paediatrics department, believes the Hong Kong government has not taken these children into consideration, nor are they prepared for the challenges. “We [the public hospital system] only got one more paediatrics surgeon over the past decade,” says Chan, “and there will be two paediatricians retiring soon. Our workload has doubled.”

For many schools in the New Territories, cross-border students counteracted the problem of under-enrolment, because of Hong Kong’s low local birth rate. Now, they have too many students waiting to be enrolled.

Too Siu-fung, principal of Sheung Shui Pui Yau Kindergarten, tells Time Out that about 80 percent of the kindergarten’s students are from Hong Kong-Mainland families, and another 15 percent are from Mainland families. “I remember when I first came to this kindergarten in 2001, there were only 40 students,” says Too. “It was on the edge of being closed down. To survive, we needed to actively recruit more cross-border students.”

According to the Education Bureau, there were 12,865 cross-border students in 2011/12, almost three times more than in 2006/07. The quota of Primary 1 students for schools in North District is 2,616 in 2012/13, but there are 3,700 applications, meaning there could be 1,084 students forced to go to schools in other districts relatively far from home – which is bad news for both local and Mainland parents.

“I think it’s unfair to us,” says Liu Wai-king, whose daughter is one of the applicants. “We live here. We work here. How come our children need to compete with the children of those who don’t [live and work here] for school vacancies?”

Vilas Chiu Ching-wai, the Education Bureau’s senior school development officer for North District, says the government is planning to increase the quota for primary schools in this district, but it may take a longer time because the bureau needs to discuss changing the approved use of land with the Lands Department.

Yet Cheung Shuk-kuen, chairman of the Federation of Parent-Teacher Associations of the Northern District, says that the government departments are constantly ‘passing the bucket’ to each other. “The government has been ignoring this issue for years,” she says. “If they [the government] had been more active, problems would have been solved a long time ago.”

The Lucrative ‘Grey Zone’

In February, a Mainland ‘intermediary’ who helped Mainland mothers, with or without booking, to give birth in Hong Kong was convicted in Sha Tin Magistracy for breaching the conditions of stay (doing business under a tourist visa) and lying to an investigating official, and sentenced to 10 months in prison. Last month, another woman was convicted of the same charge and sentenced to nine weeks in prison.

According to the Immigration Department, the department is investigating a further 58 similar Mainland intermediaries and agencies, as well as 20 local fixers.

In the Mainland, the business of making arrangements for mothers to give birth in Hong Kong is booming. There are agencies set up in many first tier cities in the Mainland providing an arrangement of services, including booking hospitals, transportation, prenatal examinations, accommodation, delivery services, postnatal care, birth registering and retrieving different certificates and visas. Some of the agencies even provide ‘illegal help’ to mothers without booking to get through the border.

So far this year, all local hospitals have no vacancies for Mainland mothers until October, but one agency in Shenzhen, Hong Kong Maternity Services Limited, tells Time Out that it can still arrange to help mothers with due dates before September. “Bring along $150,000 to $250,000 to Hong Kong, and our staff there will get you in hospital,” says a consultant of the agency over the phone. “But you will need to get through the border yourself. The check is becoming more and more strict, both here in Shenzhen and in Hong Kong.”

According to the consultant, normally the prices of their delivery-travel-sets range from $60,000 to $140,000, but in urgent cases where mothers need to give birth without booking, the prices will be higher.

Unwilling to give her real name, Ah Ping, an intermediary in Guangdong province, tells Time Out why her business is worth the risk. “The standard commission for us is $15,000 per person. For me doing this alone, two to three mothers a month is already a good profit,” she says. “But the hospitals, the doctors and nurses in Hong Kong are earning much more from this. What we get is just the leftovers.” Ping claims that she has never helped anyone to cross the border without a prior booking, and has now halted her business after the two court cases.

The Immediate Future

Hong Kong would not have the problem of Mainland mothers – Mainland couples, to be more exact – if the law had not allowed their babies born in the city to have permanent residency. So why is it allowed in the first place?

ARTICLE 24

Permanent residents of Hong Kong shall be:

  1. Chinese citizens born in Hong Kong before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region;
  2. Chinese citizens who have ordinarily resided in Hong Kong for a continuous period of not less than seven years before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region;
  3. Persons of Chinese nationality born outside Hong Kong of those residents listed in categories (1) and (2);

MORE DETAIL: The above-mentioned residents shall have the right of abode in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and shall be qualified to obtain, in accordance with the laws of the Region, permanent identity cards which state their right of abode.

Pro-democracy lawyer Martin Lee Chu-ming was a member of the Basic Law Drafting Committee from 1985 to 1989, when many Hong Kong people, fearing the handover, emigrated overseas. Lee tells Time Out that back then Hong Kong, facing the loss of large amounts of talent, needed to attract those who moved away to come back. Hence Article 24 was included in the Basic Law, stating that all Chinese citizens born in Hong Kong before or after the handover, and their children born overseas, have the right of abode in Hong Kong. In other words, the article was meant for emigrants’ children born overseas.

“At that time the central government promised it would strictly control the number of people allowed to come to Hong Kong,” Lee recalls. “Who would have thought Hong Kong would open to individual Mainland tourists in the future?”

Currently there are four popular suggestions to solve the Mainland mother problem:

  1. Administrative means;
  2. Seeking reinterpretation of the Article 24 by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress;
  3. Amending the Basic Law; and
  4. Letting the Court of Final Appeal overrule its 2001 decision.

Lee rules out the last three suggestions immediately. He says the reinterpretation will harm Hong Kong’s judicial independence; it will be nearly impossible to amend the Basic Law because no government would like to admit its fundamental law is wrong, and the process of amending the Basic Law is long and complicated; and, likewise, no highest court would like to admit its ruling is wrong.

The administrative route is preferred by Lee. “The government has cut the quota for public hospitals sharply this year, and promised it will prioritise local mothers’ demand,” he says. “And the immigration officials have also successfully blocked many Mainland mothers. As long as the government keeps actively enforcing the regulations, Hong Kong citizens’ benefits will be well protected.”

The quota of Mainland mothers for public and private hospitals this year is 34,400, a 20 percent cut from last year, while the quota for public hospitals has been cut over 65 percent from 9,800 last year down to 3,400 this year. But the quota is for Mainland couples as well as Mainland mothers with a Hong Kong husband, which has stirred protests among Hong Kong-Mainland families.

“This is such an unfair system,” says Chan Waihung, a social worker at the Mainland-Hong Kong Families Association. “Hong Kong mothers with Mainland husbands are treated as local mothers and prioritised, but Mainland mothers with Hong Kong husbands are not. This is ridiculous!”

According to government estimates, by 2030, a quarter of Hong Kong’s population is expected to reach age 65 and older. Another government research shows that around 60 percent of Mainland mothers’ children could come back to study or work before the age of 21.

If they come, when will they come? What will be their levels of education? Will they need public housing or social security? What influence will they have on this ageing society? Perhaps it is these uncertainties that make Hongkongers stigmatise Mainland mothers.

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Luxury brand shopper with Chanel and Gucci bags.

The Great Shop Forward

The massive mainland tourism trade is having significant side-effects on Hong Kong

By Shirley Zhao

When it opened up to individual Mainland tourists in 2003, Hong Kong, stricken by SARS and in the midst of an economic crisis, chose the quickest and most direct way to recovery. And it worked too. Millions of Mainland tourists rushed through the borders, instantly reviving various tourism-related industries and helping to propel the flailing economy back into the fast lane. Barely a decade on, however, and the policy has become hugely controversial and highly unpopular with Hong Kong citizens.

According to statistics from the Census and Statistics Department and the Hong Kong Tourism Board, more than 28 million Mainland tourists visited Hong Kong in 2011, of which 60 percent were individual tourists, almost 26 times more than in 2003. This year, in February alone, Hong Kong saw an influx of around 2.3 million Mainland tourists, 65 percent of which were individual travellers – an 18 percent increase on February last year.

On the back of this Mainland tourist and shopper boom, the HK tourism industry now accounts for three percent of the city’s GDP, compared to 1.7 percent back in 2003. While many Mainlanders come to our tax haven to buy luxuries (free of the 17 percent value-added tax and other consumption levies in the Mainland), many others find Hong Kong the most convenient place to buy quality daily goods such as baby formulas, medicine, cosmetics and toiletries. According to a survey by the Chinese Ministry of Commerce, prices for luxury goods in China are 45 percent higher than in Hong Kong, and not surprisingly, the retail sector has become one of the biggest winners. Last year, retail sales enjoyed a whopping year-on-year growth of 25 percent.

Other related industries like hotels and transport have also been securing large profits. Take Leung Hung’s situation. He bought a floor of a building in Mong Kok in 2001 for $1.2 million, and turned it into a seven-room business hotel. Now the hotel has a full occupancy rate all year round, mostly by Mainland tourists. “The business here is going well,” says Leung modestly. “Although I don’t like the overcrowded streets of Mong Kok, I do benefit from the increasing Mainland travellers. For me, it’s always a good thing.”

Despite their contribution to the Hong Kong economy, there is growing resentment towards Mainland tourists flooding Hong Kong’s shopping streets, malls and tourist attractions. Many blame the Mainland boom for the knock-on effect of rising property prices and limiting resources.

According to research conducted by Ming Pao newspaper early this year, only 16 percent of 613 interviewees thought they had benefitted from the surge in Mainland tourism, while 73 percent thought there were no benefits at all.

“I used to live in a neighbourhood in Mong Kok with small stores selling various goods,” says 42-year-old Cheung Wing-cheung, a technician.

“Now they are replaced by a large shopping mall. I don’t want to go to Tsim Sha Tsui nowadays because it’s full of Mainland people, and everywhere you go, you hear Putonghua. Sometimes I don’t know if the city still belongs to us.”

Yu Chi-shing, who used to run a small snack store in Causeway Bay, had to move his store to North Point in 2009, because he could not afford the rent when he tried to renew the contract. “The rent was almost three times higher than before,” says Yu. “And I don’t think the landlord had the intention to renew the contract at all, even if I agreed to pay him the amount he required. He had probably made a deal with a big buyer already.”

Francis Lui Ting-ming, professor of economics at the University of Science and Technology, sees potential solutions in amending the government’s land policy. “The key to solving the problem is for the government to increase land supply for commercial use,” he says. “There is only four sq km of land approved for commercial use in Hong Kong,” Lui explains. “It certainly cannot deal with so many Mainland buyers. With nowhere else to build more shopping malls, the landlords can only raise the rents. That will either force smaller stores out or force them to raise the retail prices to cover the rising rents. Thus even though Mainland tourists are spending money here, common Hong Kong people don’t gain anything from it. Most of the money goes to a few people like the landlords.”

Lui also says Mainland tourists are not the ones to blame. “Countries across the world want to attract more tourists. Now that we have so many, why should we chase them away?”

Lui suggests that the government can approve areas of land in New Territories North and Tung Chung for commercial use, so that developers can build what he calls ‘super shopping malls’, where Mainland buyers can head directly for shopping, and downtown districts can be less crowded. “It’ll be easier to manage and more convenient for both Mainland shoppers and Hong Kong citizens.”

Whether large numbers of Mainland consumers and investors will keep coming to Hong Kong remains uncertain, as there are growing expectations that the central government could substantially cut taxes on consumption and luxury goods, after recent comments from former deputy commerce minister Wei Jianguo and Finance Minister of China Xie Xuren.

“This comes at a time the [Hong Kong] government is building everything from new bridges to high speed rail links to whisk ever more Mainland tourists into town,” says commentator Craig Stephen in a Wall Street Journal column. “Hong Kong had better hope it will still be able to offer bargains.” Or not, depending on your point of view.

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Macau Hong Kong Chinese license plate.

The Cars That Ate Hong Kong?

By Ysabelle Cheung

The roads between Guangdong and Hong Kong are becoming clogged with the wrong kind of traffic – and Hongkongers aren’t happy about it. Thanks to the Hong Kong Mainland China Driving Scheme, cars will be able to travel freely between the two regions. It will operate in two phases. The first, which began on March 30, allows SAR cars into the borders of China. No arguments there. Phase two allows Mainland registered cars into Hong Kong in ad hoc quotas, starting with 50 per day. As you can expect, this part is causing concern. Upon hearing of the proposal back in February, green groups and citizens ignited with fury over what they cited as a blatant ploy to allow more Mainland cars into the SAR. Two weeks after the announcement of the trial scheme, more than 1,500 protestors turned out to vent their fury. They predicted that Mainlanders would pollute the city (strange, given that Hong Kong is already polluted to death), clog up the roads (ditto) and bring dangerous driving to our streets (ditto again). They urged Hong Kong motorists to avoid applying for the rights to travel up north in a bid to unofficially reject the scheme in unified team spirit. That didn’t quite work out.

Many detractors have also pointed to the differences between southern and northern driving patterns and drivers. Although each registered Mainland driver will be required to pass a series of tests before crossing the border (familiarity with Hong Kong driving rules among them), many Hong Kong citizens fear that their streets will become infiltrated with right-lane drivers who share no concern for Hong Kong’s left-driving road rules. It’s a rather ridiculous argument, but it also ties in with congestion worries, with various HK citizens voicing their discontent about losing time in gridlock with this new influx of Mainland cars. Aren’t we already losing time to gridlock?

Through scores of press releases, Hong Kong and Guangdong authorities have attempted to quell these fears and point out the fairly normal figures of Mainlander crash rates on Hong Kong roads. “The general response of the public was positive,” stated a representative from the Transport and Housing bureau of Hong Kong. “Mainland drivers must comply with local traffic ordinances and regulations while driving in Hong Kong.” Shocka.

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  • 404namenotfound

    Sofa ye punks

    • hanyucha

      We must send all the sofa locusts back to the mainland before they have babies. Sofa is too small!

      • Canadian_Skies

        Resistance is futile. They are borg.

  • hanyucha

    Seriously though, what is the point of HK being part of China if they are not going to integrate. They have all these rights and look down on the mainlanders, but who is it that pays the bills for little HK? HKers should learn to be more humble, and more tolerant of mainlanders.

    • Why should anyone be force to “tolerate” mainlanders? And toleration is indeed what is necessary when faced with people who for the most part are entirely unable to assimilate into the local culture, no matter what country they visit or immigrate to, whether it be Australia, Hong Kong, Canada or whereever.

      No, mainlanders need to desperately raise their overall standards and etiquette if they want to earn the respect of people from other nationalities. Am I saying that other countries don’t don’t have boorish troglodytes? No, but they tend to be the exception rather than the average. (Note I said average, not rule)

      Hong Kong is a haven for people who are looking for a straight forward, orderly, polite, convenient and thrilling place to live. If it wasn’t for the overflow of mainlanders (poor manners, dangerous behaviour and over-crowding) and the ever-present grip of the f*cking politiburo, Hong Kong would be a damn sight closer to perfection.

      • Alan

        I knew that goateed one with HKID (or not?) would not be able to resist chipping in his two HK dollars on this one, in fact, even as soon as I read the title my hackles were raised.

        You are as predictable as a Macau JAV show with all the horny chinese guys gawking and leering.

        Don’t you ever give up in your defence of Hong Kong, even though it is not your place of birth, and your wife technically isn’t a full HK’er, oooops, that’s torn it, I mentioned the W word, now like the northern people you hate so much you will get all sensitive and woe is me.

        Good luck for 2047, hillbilly, but doubt you will be there then and that tattoo will have gone to your waistline.

        In a bit yeah!

        • Brett Hunan

          Almost worse than CB and notorious…. At least Elijah doesnt pay you any mind. Contribute to the thread instead of your fails at bullying.

          • Alan

            Elijah is bullying when he slurs all mainland people.

            Who is he to be ignorant and racist to others? Why is his racism tolerated?

          • Brett Hunan

            I think you are reading too far into what he writes. Besides, there are plenty of people here that rip on China but you only seem to notice little Elijah… screams troll to me.

          • Alan

            s. Besides, there are plenty of people here that rip on China but you only seem to notice little Elijah

            Because he always china bashes the most, and goes on the defensive about his wife. That’s why.

          • mr. wiener

            It still doesn’t seem like much of a reason Alan.
            I wish you’d knock off most of the personal attacks as it invalidates your argument. Sorry, but I had to say it :(

      • Alan

        Hong Kong is a haven for people who are looking for a straight forward, orderly, polite,

        Polite? Rushing onto escalators and MTR trains as though they will stop running….give me a break.

        Granted I will give you it is more orderly than the Mainland overall, but HK’ers polite, and a thrilling place to live?

        In my opinion, it is just another corporate city like New York, London, Tokyo, with nothing to recommend it, except perhaps some great food and shopping for electronics. The local women have an exceptional entitlement mentality, and post handover it has really gone downhill.

        Just my two HKDS.

        • mr. wiener

          Yep but it’s kinda like why South Africa for all it’s horrible problems is held up as the jewel, nay the future hope of Africa. As most other places there are so much worse off and far behind in infastructure.
          Same with HK.And you as a pommy bastard [meant affectionately] can’t tell me it isn’t great to be able to find a place on the mainland where they can actually do a half decent curry and fish and chips hey?
          I can’t say I like a sense of entitlement in a woman, but it’s a damn sight better than a predatory nature like Shanghainese women.

          • Alan

            And you as a pommy bastard [meant affectionately] can’t tell me it isn’t great to be able to find a place on the mainland where they can actually do a half decent curry and fish and chips hey?

            No probs, agree with what you write here.

            Agreed on Shanghainese being the worst, but northerners also can have a shocking mentality of spend spend spend, me me me, as well.

        • some girl

          actually, my experience with hong kong trains and escalators had been very pleasant. there’s an actual line (gasp!) when the train approaches, people give their seats up for the elderly and disabled (double gasp!), and everyone i’ve crossed paths with had been very polite even though they didn’t know i wasn’t from hong kong until i tell them so (triple gasp!).

          having lived in shanghai for a while, i can’t say the same about that big city with all hype and no soul.

          just saying.

        • VOR

          HK people are arrogant without reason. They needed a couple hundred more years of colonization to learn how to become truly civilized. As it is I find HK people to be the most venal human beings I have ever had the misfortune of meeting. I take offense at the comparison to really great cities like Tokyo, London and New York (especially the two latter). London and NYC may be major financial centers but unlike HK, they are also centers of world class scholarship, art and culture. Both cities have drawn people from literally every corner of the world, creating two of the most utterly unique cities in world history. HK should never be mentioned in the same breath as truly great cities.

          • Alan

            London and NYC may be major financial centers but unlike HK, they are also centers of world class scholarship, art and culture.

            Agreed. One thing as a Brit (or limey or pommie!) I am proud of London for. NYC also is world class.

          • This Side Ground

            There are probably good reasons why the people of Hong Kong exhibit an air of arrogance. In part due to their upbringing, but also the competitive environment in which they grew up in. Have you ever tried to imagine what it is like to grow up and live in a colony? People of Tokyo, London and New York could up and leave to pursue their dreams in the rest of their country, where there were probably other resources to draw upon. Where do you think the people of Hong Kong could go to pursue their dreams of scholarship, arts and culture? To China?

            You say that they would require many more years of colonization to learn how to become civilized – in whose eyes? Yours? That kind of opinion is similar to how Hong Kong people perceive those from the mainland. Come to think of it, the Native Americans who lived in the area known as New Year City probably fit the definition of being uncivilized back then, too. Or the other indigenous people whom were colonized by the British for the sake of civility. Or perhaps the people of Japan because of their atrocities during World War II.

            The history of each city are much too different to be drawing parallels. What should surprise you is that each city, including Hong Kong, had managed to come this far.

            The return of Hong Kong is like transplant surgery but one where the organ is rejecting the host. You cannot expect several generations of people who grew up in a colonial, capitalist society to all of a sudden get along with people who have lived under communist rule and do not know what supposed Western and/or religious niceties are.

            The some observers, Hong Kong is no more than a commodity, a port through which goods can be bought and sold. For all their good intentions neither China nor the United Kingdom were certain how the handover was going to turn out. The reality is that they are now back in the hands of China and unless it becomes a point of strategic interest no one in the international community is going to risk creating another Taiwan. Meanwhile the people of Hong Kong can whine and complain all they want while they try and cling onto what they believe to be some semblance of identity and pride that differentiates them from the people of the mainland.

            In China, opinions of the Japanese are strong. It is ironic then that the people of Hong Kong would feel the same about the people from the mainland. When seen from that perspective, the two may not be so different.

      • anon

        This is silly. Why should anyone be forced to “tolerate” British imperialists and those Indians that came with them? For the most part, neither group has assimilated into the local culture to any greater degree than Chinese mainlanders who have spent comparable amounts of time in Hong Kong.

        Fact is, for the most part, if we’re talking about assimilating into the local culture, these criticisms are thrown at all recent immigrants and visitors. They were thrown and still get thrown at Hong Kong and Taiwanese immigrants too. It is typically their later generations, the ones born in their host countries that are seen as better assimilated, and for what should be obvious reasons that are conveniently forgotten here.

        Yes, mainlanders need to raise their overall standards of behavior and etiquette closer to ours if they don’t want our acceptance in our eyes. That’s something even mainlanders and especially mainlanders in cities complain about themselves and their own all the time. Somewhere in the past 60 years, peasant culture was promoted as the ideal for ideological reasons and that, combined with general poverty, hasn’t done wonders for the average level of civility amongst mainlanders according to pop culture first-world standards. But its self-righteous to forget that Hong Kongers as a whole and on average were very much like them at one point in time not too long ago, and that it took decades to bring the general level of Hong Kong society to where it is now. The lower classes of Hong Kong today have more in common with their cousins across the border than they do with the city’s minority of white collar workers and elites.

        I’m going to nitpick. “Boorish troglodytes” actually tend to be the rule or average in this world. If you don’t believe that, you live in a fishbowl and haven’t seen much of the world. Well-mannered upper and middle class demographics are the minority. There are a lot of people in this world and the rule is that all these boorish troglodytes generally don’t mean ill but simply didn’t grow up with all of the social niceties and comforts that certain advanced and well-developed nations or cities have. They’re rough around the edges, and yes, some of the suddenly better-heeled of them do tend to let their new found wealth get to their heads. Human vanity is a predictable thing.

        Hong Kong is hardly close to perfection. It’s more a convenient juxtaposition for our criticisms of the mainland. Would it be “better” in some ways if it were absent mainlanders and the central government’s meddling? Sure, many people would think so, and that’s understandable, but let’s not color Hong Kong so rosily. Hong Kongers were looking down on their own underclass and corrupt business and government elements for their city’s issues until they found a more convenient scapegoat. No, not everything is being scapegoated on mainlanders, and mainlanders surely have brought certain problems to Hong Kong, but let’s not pretend there aren’t always things to complain about and there isn’t a heavy dose of simple short-sighted past-forgetting classism involved here.

        • Anon, I agree about the boorish troglodytes. Everywhere you go, it’s like the entire world is starting to slide into an “Idiocracy” state of living (excellent movie). However, I would argue that Hong Kong does have a lower level of them because it is such an international city with not only an intense business and service culture, but such a huge variance within it’s multiculturalism. And as you and many others have said, china basically destroyed it’s own culture and scholors just last generation.

          No one is or can forget this atrocious class, but it was self-inflicted (chinese policies, chinese red guards, chinese littles red book, etc.). As such it is up to the chinese people to reclaim their culture and class, not with money or parroting “5000 YEARS!” every chance, but through observation of those around them and the humbleness suggested by hanuycha above.

          Lastly, I never said Hong Kong was close to perfwect, just that it would be closER to perfection. If I was arguing forfor close to perfect, I’d mention Norway, Australia, Sweden, Switzeland or Canada. But that’s just nitpicking and I’d assume it’s below both our intellects.

          • anon

            I don’t think the entire world is starting to slide into an Idiocracy (yes, funny movie) state. That suggests regression and I don’t think a clear-eyed look at the world suggests that for the whole world. The movie was more or less social commentary about the United States anyway.

            Hong Kong is indeed an international city that has much going for it but I think there are too many exaggerations being clutched to. It isn’t strange whatsoever that Hong Kongers idealize themselves based upon their more sophisticated white-collars and elites but it isn’t remotely difficult to find boorish behavior in Hong Kong.

            “Self-inflicted” is being unfair. That’s like saying the poor are poor because of themselves. Its certainly true for many but its also grossly neglecting historical and societal factors. When people get rich or get ahead, there’s this sociological phenomenon where they start thinking it was all by their own means and choices, forgetting how much their environment or simple fortune contributed to where they are there. Not everyone on the mainland had the means to flee to Hong Kong or Taiwan when the Communists convinced the majority to take over. Much of the class and sophistication of Hong Kong was imported from the mainland historically. Hong Kong was previously just a bunch of rocks with some peasant fishermen. Hong Kong is an adopted home that evolved from forced Western colonialism and both economic and political Chinese refugees. The uncouth peasant from the mainland didn’t will himself to be that way. He’s a product of his environment just as much as the sophisticated Hong Kong denizen is.

            There’s ample evidence that the mainland Chinese aspire for a better future and that they’re observing those around them (what do you think shanzhai comes from? Or the consumption of Japanese, Korean, Hong Kong, and Taiwanese pop culture and trends?). The fact is that you’re unfairly exaggerating with your characterizations to the point where you’re providing ammo to critics that Hong Kongers are indeed being obnoxiously arrogant. As if Hong Kongers have never lorded their wealth in their dealings with other nationalities and ethnicities? The arrogant Hong Kongers also need to observe and be humble.

            I think its a laugh that you think those countries are close to perfect. That you entertain the idea of any state or society being close to perfect suggests I understood you just fine the first time. It’s short-sighted and irrational to even be mentioning much leas measuring perfection in any of these contexts. You’re just feeding the false belief that if we could just get rid of these people or get rid of this, then everything would be perfect or better. No, as history has shown us, this has never been the case. It’s merely a fallacy of nostalgia, of thinking things were somehow better before this or that changed when it was never really true because like I said, we always find something to complain about.

            I understand the emotional reaction that many Hong Kongers have towards mainlanders just as I understand the emotional reaction many urbanites have towards migrant workers. But its still irrational and short-sighted.

          • Alan

            As such it is up to the chinese people to reclaim their culture and class, not with money or parroting “5000 YEARS!” every chance, but through observation of those around them and the humbleness suggested by hanuycha above.

            That will come over time, you can’t expect things to change overnight. As those who get rich, send their students overseas, things will change.

            And HK’ers are not obsessed with money….puh-lease? My HK buddy is always crowing about the latest fancy watch or how much he is making…human nature, dear canuck, human nature.

          • Alan

            I’d mention Norway, Australia, Sweden, Switzeland or Canada

            With the exception of Australia, most of those countries have little to no summer, exorbitant living costs, and some of the highest suicide rates in the world.

            I’d make an exception for Switzerland and Australia, but I have met plenty of Norwegians and most of them can’t wait to retire and settle in Spain, speaks volumes about life in Norway. But nice people overall.

            Now where is HK on that list? As it is not a country, WOT SAYETH THEE NOW?!

        • Alt-Z

          QUOTE: “Not everyone on the mainland had the means to flee to Hong Kong or Taiwan when the Communists convinced the majority to take over.”

          If the majority were convinced by the Communists, then we can say that they willingly brought it on themselves. Thus, whatever result of sixty plus years of Communist rule, including widespread uncouth behavior, which is the topic here, is indeed “self inflicted”.

          The Hong Kong of today is the result of exactly one event, which is the Communist takeover of China. Before 1949, even after a long time under British colonial rule, it was still mostly just a pile of rocks. The people who made Hong Kong what it is today are the people who fled the Communists. And when many HKers see mainlander behavior, they will not say to themselves: that’s what we used to be like. They will instead be reminded of why their forefathers fled China to begin with.

          And anyone who argues that a certain group of people needs more time to improve, just be reminded that time runs parallel everywhere in the world and is totally impartial. If in fact HKers took decades to improve themselves to be what they are today, what were the mainlanders doing in those same decades? Don’t they boast of having “stood up” and having been “liberated” after the founding of the PRC?

          • anon

            You’re not stupid enough to misunderstand a figure of speech is. Everyone innately knows what being a victim of circumstance is. Just as a child born in poverty did not self-inflict himself to his environment and absence of opportunity as the child who was born to a village of people who don’t have the exposure or the time for refined manners. Just like CGC didn’t inflict the world he was born in and has lived in on himself.

            Your second paragraph is surely true for some but hardly the one and true explanation for much of the self-righteous bigotry we see on display.

            Time is impartial but circumstances are not. The measure you apply others is the measure that will be applied to you. You justifying your sense of superiority over mainlanders has the by-product of justifying the colonialism that you were subjected to. After all, why didn’t the Chinese improve themselves earlier so as to not be subjected to foreign invasion and exploitation? It’s their fault, right? Let’s blame the victim, and if the victim is ourselves, let’s find another to victimize to make ourselves feel better?

            You’re being willfully daft. I suspect if you spent an extra minute thinking your comment through, you’d realize how retarded it is. The command you’re looking for is Ctrl+Z.

          • Anon:

            You’ve become emotional, which has clouded the argument. Not only that but you’ve resorted to ad hominem attacks and the use of basically saying ” that argument is stupid and only stupid people use, don’t be stupid, cause you’re not stupid right?”. What Ctrl-Z stipulated is not only logical, but historically true.

            If the large majority of a country decides to follow a leader or policy whether it be direct support like a vote or indirect support by not resisting or protesting or just marching along, then yes, they are completely responsible for the result.

            Furthermore since the three generations of people who marched to that drumbeat are mostly still alive, then it’s still applicable. The great-gramd parents, grandparents and even parents of the current generation of adults are either directly or indirectly responsible for the creation of the Orwellian dystopia known as china (please spare me the monotonous ‘century of humiliation’ ). It’s possible to say that the current adult generation is innocent, but ignorance of the past and a majority unwilling to act muddles the verdict.

            Countries have been torn apart by war, devestated by natural disasters, made terrible choices with policy, but most of them manage to keep going and keep improving. There are a few expections of course where the fate of a country is decided by another country of course.

            Time to really stand up and move forward, not in leaps but in sound steps that learn from the triumphs and failures of other countries that have already walked that path.

            PS. The countries I mentioned above have been consistently ranked at the top of lists pertaining to lowest crime rates, healthcare, education, economic stability, social welfare, standards of living, happiness index, Gini index and overall best countries to live in by the U.N. Closest we currently have to a perfect system… IE: better than the rest, ergo…

          • Alt-Z

            A child is born to his parents, and his parents’ doings are responsible for his condition. We can extrapolate this on a progressively greater scale, until we arrive at the conclusion that the overall condition of a country is the collective doing of all of its people, past and present. A child born in a poor country has his parents, his family, his clan, and his countrymen to blame. He may not have inflicted it on himself as an individual, but he deserves exactly what he gets. And as soon as he becomes old enough to improve his condition but does not, he immediately becomes responsible as an individual. That last point applies to the majority of mainlanders.

            All bigotry is self-righteous, and in fact all people are self-righteous in everything they do. To you, someone who criticizes uncouth behavior shows self-righteous bigotry. To me, someone who justifies uncouth behavior, especially in another’s home, show self-righteous bigotry.

            Circumstances differ, but the choice of circumstances before they came into being is the same for all. If circumstances do differ, it is because some idiot made the wrong choice. When you make the wrong choice, you and your descendants bear the consequences. If you are born into the wrong circumstances, you can either suck it up and try to improve your condition, or bitch and moan about why it wasn’t your fault. As soon as you do the latter, it becomes your fault.

            QUOTE: “After all, why didn’t the Chinese improve themselves earlier so as to not be subjected to foreign invasion and exploitation? It’s their fault, right?”

            The answer to that question is yes. Foreign invasion and exploitation of the Chinese are the result of their own stupidity. A Chinese who sets aside emotion to study those historical episodes cannot arrive at any other conclusion. And the ironic reality is that they now desperately try to enter a territory once ruled by those foreigners.

            I was not subjected to any colonialism, as I was not in HK before 1997. My sense of superiority over mainlanders comes from my observation that as a group they are significantly more dimwitted than normal. Having a sense of superiority over the mainland Chinese is, in fact, not a particularly lofty self perception. It is something most people in the world readily acquire through only limited exposure to the subject population.

          • anon

            Elijah,

            1. Nice ad hominem to start off with an accusation of ad hominem. You’re right, I did suggest he was stupid for misunderstanding or pretending to not understand a figure of speech. I’m not going to apologize for it.

            2. The central thesis of my response and disagreement is that Alt-Z is employing double-standards. The majority of Chinese people accepted the Communist Revolution just as the majority of Hong Kongers accepted British occupation and colonialism. That’s what being a victim of circumstance is. This is both logical and historical. Did today’s African-Americans self-inflict their place in society? Did their forefathers just not fight hard enough against being captured and sold as slaves? Should they blame their forefathers for not killing themselves on the slave ships and plantations?

            People are responsible for certain things about their lives, but their lives are also shaped by things that were out of their control. If you agree with this fact, then you agree with my disagreement and criticism of Alt-Z’s comments.

            3. I do think it is emotionally exasperating when someone who is seemingly educated conveniently refuses to acknowledge the above fact and insists on saying mainland Chinese or anyone somehow “self-inflicted” everything on themselves. I’m not going to apologize for this.

            4. Your PS still doesn’t address my criticism of your remark.

            Alt-Z,

            1. Why stop at country? Why not all of society, of all its people, past and present? By your logic, Hong Kongers’ forefathers are also directly culpable for the state of many mainland Chinese people and society, for having fled instead of staying to fight, for the active participation of many Hong Kongers in the past with the communist ideology and movement, for engaging in the very classism that made communist ideology so attractive to many of the peasants who embraced it?

            2. The fallacy of your logic here is that it results in an impractical, untenable, and unreasonable degree of liability. White people today would be guilty of the slavery and imperialism of their forefathers. This notion actually does exist but in a far less absurd form of white privilege, that white people today enjoy certain advantages in society vis a vis other ethnicities by virtue of the dominance of their forefathers’ societies. White people are benefactors of circumstance just as others are victims of circumstance. However, we draw the line at saying today’s white people “self-inflicted” their advantages. At most, we criticize them for taking such for granted, for thinking they and their society are where they are all by their present day decisions and actions, or worse, by their very nature.

            3. Oh good, you agree that you’re being bigoted and it is self-righteous. No, I don’t think someone who criticizes uncouth behavior shows self-righteous bigotry. I think someone who thinks uncouth behavior is attributed to a specific generalized group who self-inflicted it upon themselves absent logical consideration of historical and sociological circumstance while considering such for another specific generalized group shows self-righteous bigotry.

            4. I don’t subscribe to your thinking and think it is incredibly dangerous and undesirable. The logic of the victors and powerful, right? Where those who rule rule because of their own virtue, and not by virtue of circumstance and fortune. By your logic, the advantaged have the right to lord their advantage over the disadvantaged and the disadvantaged must accept responsibility for circumstances and decisions they had no involvement in.

            5. No one here is arguing that individuals don’t have the capacity and agency to effect change in their circumstances. However, there is someone–you–who is arguing that circumstance is to be discounted. While it is possible for someone to drastically change their circumstances, there are institutional, systematic, and sociological factors in social mobility, in how much or how easily one can change their circumstances. The fact is that circumstances and individual agency are both undeniable. This is why mainland Chinese HAVE improved their society, that many mainland Chinese today ARE more sophisticated than their parents despite their circumstances, BECAUSE they’ve made certain choices. This is also why many Hong Kong people ARE more sophisticated than THEIR parents despite their circumstances. But they and their parents were all also victims of circumstance. No one here is defending defeatist bitching and whining. I’m telling you to have some proper perspective.

            6. I agree with you that Chinese people must accept the fact that their current circumstances in the world are shaped by what happened in the past. I don’t think anyone disagrees, much less mainland Chinese people. However, it is not wrong to cite that Chinese were indeed victims of colonialism or outside forces and events. You may not have been subjected to colonialism yet you readily identify with a society that was and has been shaped by it. For all I know, you and your history may have been guilty of colonialism. You’re still applying a double-standard in your comments.

            7. I do see now that you’re an unrepentant bigot and I’ve been trying to reason with you in vain the entire time. That’s my mistake.

          • GloW

            Great comment. I agree. Most HK people are born into, raised in, and/or live in low or average income, especially with the cost of living and high RE prices.

            It’s no excuse that PRC people have been in poverty. Go to Thailand and people are polite. PRC people their own mentalities and upbringings, and unfortunately, not a pleasant one.

          • 1. Pointing out an insult is not ad hominem, unless you’re implying that my saying you’ve become emotional is an insult. It’s not, just a reasonable assessment given your response. It’s obvoous in the way you became/are defensive and used low-class argument techniques that are usually beneath you.

            2. You’re intentionally muddling the argument now by bringing in examples that are totally external to the core issue. Did I not concede that the current generation can be said to be victims as circumstance as you insisted? I then added a provision to that explaining that unless the current generation actively tries to better their society, then they become just as cupable as past generations. Alt-Z expanded on that assertion, but you seemed to have ignored it.

            Victims of citcumstance can and do recover and sometimes even use it to better themselves on a personal level. As I mentioned before. Mainlanders are responsible for their own past and doubly so for the present actions and future consequences. With the advent of the Internet (ie: instantaneous communication and the sum of all knowledge) as well as a more closely knit Global community allowing for the advancement and transmission of ideology, there’s little reason for no advancement except from passive laziness or active corruption. Look at all the young people who jump the great firewall each day, look at the hundreds of inspirational people who fight to better china. They’re supposedly victims of circumstqnce, but still fight for betterment, they can be classified as totally not responsible, the rest? Not so much.

            If you want to nitpick, insult, force an argument or get the last word, as is your wont (ohhhh ad hominem there, kinda), go for it. I’ve said my bit.

          • anon

            Glow,

            What you’re forgetting is that the uncouth and impolite behaviors of mainland Chinese are also found in the poor and nouveau rich of Hong Kong and Thailand.

            Elijah,

            1. No, an ad hominem is an ad hominem, even when pointing out an ad hominem. The definition of ad hominem is very simple. Your accusation of me getting emotional is an ad hominem because it is irrelevant to the truth of my argument.

            And come on, you get emotional all the time. You even whine to the moderators when people dish to you what you dish to them. Hint: There’s a fallacy in this one too. Both ad hominem and poisoning the well.

            I’m flattered that you think my arguments are usually high-class but I personally think I use low-class rhetoric all the time to flavor my high-class arguments. I don’t even care if people accuse me of such. All I care is if they’re able to also rebut the actual meat of my “high class” arguments, as you so say.

            2. No, I’m not. You’re trying to arbitrarily limit comparisons and juxtapositions used to demonstrate the main thesis that undermines your prejudices and fallacies.

            3. I didn’t say you did not concede that people are victims of circumstances (though you having to concede such a point is worrisome itself). I was explaining the crux of my disagreement with Alt-Z since you’re arguing in support of his statements. I said if you agree with me on this, then you agree with my disagreement with him.

            4. I never disagreed anywhere that if people don’t strive to improve, then they’re guilty of where they are. I have, however, rebutted Alt-Z’s arguments by showing how many mainland Chinese are BOTH seeking to improve and ARE improving, going through the same processes as every developed nation or society has gone through before, including the Japanese, Koreans, Hong Kongers, and Taiwanese. Please feel free to quote the assertions of Alt-Z that you think I have ignored. I’ll be happy to reiterate to you what my responses were.

            5. Of course mainlanders must accept a measure of responsibility for their past but the issue in contention is how you characterize it. I think “self-inflicted” and especially “willingly brought it on themselves” is being unfair, especially in the context of certain uncouth behaviors and habits. If you were born and raised in the same environment, surroundings, and social norms as the spitting and random shitting mainlander, you’d more likely than not be doing the same thing today. That you don’t is a product of the environment, surroundings, and social norms you were born and raised in. We both understand that old habits die hard and older people have a harder time changing their habits. We also both understand that younger people are more dynamic, more capable of change, and that many younger people today are indeed more civilized and have better social norms and habits than their parents. Knowing these things, red flags should be popping up when you’re reading or echoing the bigoted bullshit Alt-Z has been spouting.

            6. Mainlanders today are only “doubly” responsible for the continuation of social ills because they have the benefit of hindsight AND if they’re not actively changing things. The thing is, who says they aren’t? The fact is that they are BUT NOT ENOUGH OR NOT FAST ENOUGH TO YOUR LIKING. You reject wholesale a system and situation that they aren’t willing to reject entirely. They believe the current situation can be improved upon and is preferable to the alternatives they foresee. They have more faith in stable gradual change than revolution, just like Hong Kongers who are protesting instead of taking up arms.

            There is nothing wrong with wanting more change faster for them. There IS something wrong with indulging yourself in hyperbole and arguing and suggesting that they’re not doing anything and don’t want to. That crosses the line from earnest empathy to hypocritical contempt.

            7. The level of responsibility you’re arguing for (remember, I too think they have a measure of responsibility) is interesting because it begs the question of how responsible the rest of us are. How responsible are mainland Chinese for immigrating abroad? For Hong Kongers and Taiwanese for fleeing? For other nations and people who continue to do business with China instead of actively trying to undermine it? Too often people are content to extract what benefits they can for themselves and say the responsibility is all on them. The fact is that we’re all responsible and participatory in some way but also blameless in another. That’s because we’re all victims of circumstance. The logical thing to do is not suggest our circumstances are the completely the result of our own decisions and actions, because that’s just not true. Alt-Z isn’t willing to extend that perspective and understanding to mainlanders while he extends it to Hong Kongers. Hence, double-standard.

            8. Yeah, that was an ad hominem but its not surprising coming from you (that’s an ad hominem too). I do appreciate you trying to argue but I think you’re guilty of a lot of the same double-standards, lack of perspective, and hypocrisy as Alt-Z is. For example, and as much as I think Alan was going too far and harassing you, he did rightfully point out your hypocrisy many times.

      • Andy

        Amen !!

        • Alan

          And come on, you get emotional all the time. You even whine to the moderators when people dish to you what you dish to them.

          Agreed and agreed, amen to both!

          The guy has enough issues to keep even the most bored psychologist in business. The W word ALWAYS sets him off, as does mentioning HK is not a country.

      • You know, I’ve been to Hong Kong, and I noticed lots of Mianland tourists speaking mandarin. I enver saw one of them spitting on the ground, letting their child use the pavement as a bathroom or similar stuff. I think HongKongers complaints have as much to do with prejudice as with reality.

        And in the end, the Mainlkand govenrment has for the most part let Hong Kong do things its own way for the past 15 years, haven’t they? I doubt most Hongkongers care about being able to vote.

        • John

          You are completely wrong. Wow, you’ve been to HK a few times. Try living here for 20 years and seeing the changes instead of giving us this armchair opinion.

          You doubt most HKers care about being able to vote? Then you are ignorant. I guess you also doubt that most Tibetans want freedom of religion. I guess you also doubt that Uighurs want to have the economic freedom to develop their own gas and oil reserves. This is a typical unworldly mainland view and is not based on reality.

          There is a REASON why mainlanders earn themselves a bad reputation, not just in HK, but all over the world.

          • anon

            He’d only be completely wrong if he was lying about what he saw or if he refused to acknowledge that such things have happened before as witnessed and documented by others. His argument was that he suspects the complaints have more to do with prejudice than with reality.

            I agree. The vast majority of mainlanders behave quite decently in Hong Kong and you don’t notice them. What you do notice are the exceptions and they leave an overweighted impression upon you. Same in Hong Kong as it is everywhere else. It’s a logic fallacy for a reason.

            I agree with you in part about the issue of voting. Almost everyone cares to have a vote and a voice when asked. This should be so obvious as to be a given. I do think that Jixiang was more suggesting that he doesn’t think most Hong Kongers would actually put that right or privilege to regular use. This is arguably true as evidence by democratic systems around the world and voter turnouts. It’s what political science and sociology students study all the time. People always want the option without necessarily caring all the time to exercise it.

            Yes, there are reasons why mainlanders earn themselves a bad reputation, just as Hong Kongers have. If you’re going to resort to arguing who has a worse reputation amongst more people, then you’ve already lost sight of what’s important and only care for childish pissing contests where your self-worth is defined by who you can look down on. If Hong Kong people are supposedly better, they shouldn’t be rationalizing away the issues the same way mainlanders do.

          • Rick in China

            You cite his argument as a logical fallacy but present your own. “The vast majority of mainlanders behave quite decently in Hong Kong and you don’t notice them” – oh, and YOU do? Or are you just presuming that the minority are those who misbehave and there must be a magical minority that are just unseen or unrecognized as such? Because you presume that to be the case doesn’t mean it exists. That’s just as invalid.

            You’re creating a strawman argument against John’s point. “If you’re going to resort to arguing who has a worse reputation amongst more people” – He wasn’t arguing who has a worse reputation. He was just stating that mainlanders as tourists have a bad reputation pretty much everywhere. I would say, though, on that point, if we were comparing – in my experiences (I travel a LOT) mainlanders leave a much worse impression than hong kong tourists. You disagree?

          • I am not a Mainlander as a matter of fact. I am not Chinese at all. Hong Kongers have never been able to vote, not under the British and not now. I have never heard any of them complaining about not being able to vote, and I doubt it is a top priority for them. What is your opinon based on?

            As a matter of fact, Chinese tourists only have a bad reputation in Hong Kong, and in the minds of expats who live in China. In Europe I have never heard anyone complaining about Chinese tourists. They are usually seen as quiet people who pass unnoticed, however much that may clash with your perceptions. You are far more likely to hear people complaining about Brits who get drunk all over the place, rude French or loud ignorant Americans. All the bad behaviour you see within China (especially spitting) is simply not repeated by Mainland tourists elsewhere.

          • anon

            Actually, Rick, its not a logical fallacy to explain what makes a logical fallacy. I see what you’re driving at though I don’t think you wielded it quite the right way.

            It stands to reason that such behaviors are of the minority and not the majority. Do you disagree with my conclusion? As for my premises, when I do actually put my memory to work, I actually have observed mainlanders in Hong Kong behaving decently more often than not. What about you?

            And that’s my point about the misleading vividness fallacy I accused him and others of here. You’re being driven by irrationality, emotions, and prejudices of convenience.

            Your straw man accusation has a bit more weight, but I don’t think you’re stupid enough to know I was preempting a possible retort so we can all save our time from going down that path.

            Of course, you want to go down that path just to spite me like you willfully sought to spite people who don’t buy property in the other thread, right (there was a fallacy in that one)? Sorry, I’m not interested. I’ve already acknowledged what is worth acknowledging, that being that there are reprehensible behaviors and rationalizations amongst both Hong Kongers and mainlanders (and third-party observers here) in this debate.

          • anon

            Have to disagree with you there, jixiang. There are bad mainlander tourist perceptions elsewhere too. I actually agree that its probably not as much as the stereotypes against Brits, French, and Americans but that’s because there’s less volume and history of mainlander tourists abroad. I agree that the perception is particularly vivid for expats in China but its a joke if you think the perception doesn’t exist elsewhere.

          • Rick in China

            @anon
            Your response makes little sense. I’ve only been to HK maybe… 30 times? so I guess my experiences _are_ limited, as it was only for weekend trips for the most part, but I would say that your argument isn’t based on fact but speculation and presumption, so you can hardly point out someone else’s point as being based on speculation and prejudice when your own point is absolutely based on the same, just because in your mind it “stands to reason” does not make fact and metrics spring out of thin air, does it? I suppose you could make that stand to reason too, but *you* could make anything “stand to reason” when you’re unreasonable.

            @jixing “As a matter of fact, Chinese tourists only have a bad reputation in Hong Kong”

            Bullshit. I remember specifically waiting in line going thru Egypt entry/exit. It’s a shady place, but let me give you a specific example of Chinese mainlanders having a bad reputation in dealing with people. Waiting in line at visa registration there was a dude in a suit with a badge from some tourism .. I don’t know .. going person to person, the person infront of us was asian. He said “Which country are you from?” she said “China” he moved on, to us. Immediately, just based on that response. Said something along the lines of need travel service or transportation? we said yes – he took us to the front of another line and basically skipped us thru immigration lines without any additional payment just quick stamps, then we went to some office to arrange a private transport for the entirety of our stay.

            It worked out great. Why did he skip the Chinese person? I presume because they had dealings with Chinese in the past and didn’t want to deal with the headache and bullshit that went along with it.

            If you actually travel, or ask people abroad, what they think of Chinese tourists, you’ll get a very different answer than you’ve formulated in your mind. You can make claims, but they’re not based on anything more than delusions you’ve created to justify your points.

          • anon

            What part didn’t make sense? I’ll be happy to explain.

            Do you understand what “stands to reason” means? Let’s make this simple. What do you think is a more reasonable and defensible premise from which to logically develop a conclusion? That the vast majority of mainlander tourists in Hong Kong are behaving indecently or decently?

            Let’s work this through. We agree that mainland tourists in Hong Kong can and have engaged in uncouth behavior. This premise is accepted by both of us. The question is to what degree they do so to invalidate the conclusion that the vast majority actually are generally decent. We’re not even using this as an illustration for what misleading vividness is, but just on the conclusion itself. So what are the premises for this conclusion?

            Let’s try anecdotal personal experience. When I think of mainland tourist behavior in Hong Kong, I certainly remember that some have done some uncouth things. Those memories stand out, but thinking rationally, I also remember that most of the time, they’re not doing anything that I find uncouth. The majority of my exposure to them is them behaving decently. Ergo, my conclusion that the vast majority of mainlanders behave quite decently in Hong Kong stands.

            Now let’s try reason absent personal anecdotes. Uncouth behaviors are a minority subset of all human behavior. Given the spectrum of behaviors mainland tourists necessarily engage in while visiting Hong Kong (sleeping, eating, walking, etc.), I am forced to conclude that uncouth behaviors such as spitting on the ground, shitting on the sidewalk, engaging in loud conversation, cutting in line, being obnoxious to people in the service industry, whatever still constitute a minority of their behaviors and overall time in Hong Kong. Ergo, my conclusion that the vast majority of mainlanders behave quite decently in Hong Kong stands.

            There’s one thing you can nitpick and that would be labeling a mainlander as not having behaved decently if that mainlander engaged in any uncouth behavior at any point while in Hong Kong regardless of the mainlander’s behavior the rest of the time or overall. In my experience and based upon what I think is sound reasoning, bad apples are the minority who tend to make a disproportionate impression upon others. Knowing the existence of the misleading vividness fallacy leads me to conclude that we are underweighting behaviors that don’t leave a vivid impression with us. Recognizing that, the conclusion is that the vast majority are decent and we don’t notice them (in the sense that we don’t take special notice or form a memorable impression of them).

            Regarding your response to jixiang, I think there’s too little detail to judge if your presumptions were reasonable or not. Were you at immigration/customs or after immigration/customs? Was this an immigration/customs officer or a tout? What were you guys in line for? Was the Chinese visitor subject to more checks and scrutiny for entry due to visa/immigration policies between Egypt and China that are different for those between Egypt and Canada?

            The impression you’re giving us is that the only reason this guy sped you through is because Chinese people have bad reputations. There’s not enough information in the story you tell for us to agree with that presumption.

            Of course, I obviously agree with you about mainland tourists having bad reputations. I just don’t see your anecdote as being persuasive in support of it. There are too many possible alternative and quite likely explanations for what you’ve described. It’s possible that you’re not doing the story justice, but all we have to go on is your narrative.

        • Little Wolf

          I was in Seoul once. Never got out of the airport but now I’m a walking encyclopedia of all things Korean.

    • e peter

      Hong Kongers are generally quite humble people. Caught in this situation where Mainlanders come to visit the city and behave as though they own the place…….we have seen this many times…..then humbleness can easily turn into something else. Mainlander attitude’s wherever they go on holiday, even within their own country, is that the respect for the locals is lacking. Yes, HK is part of China, but it doesn’t mean that you can piss in the open streets, spit to your content, and shout down the mobile in the MTR…..amongst other things. If you come to HK you should know that we were caught up in a history that is very different from yours……if you acknowledge this, this is your first sign of respect. Your second sign of respect is the acknowledgement that we may do things and value things differently. And the third sign of respect is that you enjoy yourself by understanding that we are all different and will never be culturally integrated. Hong Kongers are complex in a way that Mainlanders will find it had to understand……so there is no point arguing about the integration between Hong Kong and Mainland Chinese……this is just ‘political speech’. The only way we can ‘integrate’ is the learn to respect when visiting a ‘foreign place’. I spent years living and working in Beijing, and I loved every day that I was there……..I trully have respect for the Mainland, its history, its culture and above all its people, but I certainly do not want to see HK turn into another Mainland city with the idiosyncracies that come with it……We have ‘gone too far’ in history to allow this from happening.
      Next time you go on holiday, even if it’s to another province from yours, take a while to understand what has gone on in the place culturally socially and historically……..in that way you, yourself, just might be humbled.

      • Mark

        You’re white. I’m not. Let’s just say that HKers are a servile lot to their past colonial masters but arrogant to the point of offensiveness to everyone else. A sweeping generalization, I know, but I encountered this sort of thing both times I went to HK, for 3 days or less. That being said, I can understand why they’d be unhappy with Mainlanders coming into HK for the purpose of simply spawning, but it’s hard to separate what belongs to HK and what belongs to China when all the hard defense arrangements and geopolitical decisions are taken care of by big brother.

        • Mark

          Sorry, posted too fast, you may not be white, everything else applies.

    • donscarletti

      Well, if Hong Kong returning to China was a local initiative, then you would have a point.

      Since it was pretty much forced on them, you don’t.

    • Alan

      Agreed. Where does the food and water come from?

      One reason the Brits knew the whole territory had to be returned, if the mainland turned off the taps, then what?

    • Andao

      Kinda forgettin the billions mainland companies made in HK IPOs, ain’t we?

      • anon

        I’m trying to understand the logic of your comment but can’t.

        Do you think those billions are all from Hong Kong people or something? Or that its free money as opposed to investors “investing” in those companies for future returns? Do you understand what capital markets are, by definition? Or perhaps you’re “kinda forgettin” the billions (actually we’re talking about trillions here) Hong Kong companies have made from mainland Chinese manufacturing, labor, tourism, …?

        • Andao

          What’s so confusing about this? OP says the mainland pays all the bills, other people talk about all the tourism money mainlanders bring in to HK, but China Mobile would be out 1.78 trillion HKD if they didn’t have access to the HK financial markets. You think they can make that in Shanghai? Foreigners can only buy B shares, good luck.

          Hong Kong as a financial center has made gobs of money for mainland companies who list there.

          • anon

            First, its fair of you to feel hanyucha was being unfair, though he technically didn’t say “all” the bills. Second, I still don’t understand the logic of your comment. You don’t think China Mobile and Chinese companies have other choices for going public? You don’t think Hong Kong benefits from mainland Chinese IPOs?

            It isn’t as if Hong Kong made itself a financial center for altruistic reasons. Suggesting that either side is somehow completely benefiting at the expense of the other is both obviously untrue as it is hypocritical. Your particular example is a poor one, which is why I find it so illogical. The very nature of capital markets is a voluntary transaction for perceived value, of exchanging ownership for capital.

          • Andao

            I’m just trying to say it’s mutually beneficial, that’s all. It’s silly to think the HK has nothing to offer the mainland in return for their cashola

          • anon

            Yes, I absolutely agree that its mutually beneficial. I apologize if that wasn’t apparent to me in your reply to hanyucha and if I wasn’t clear on that in my replies to you.

    • Canadian_Skies

      Simple.

      Would you allow your quality of life and culture to take leaps and bounds in the opposite direction? Ever have a thief justify himself by simply “You had it, and I didn’t, so I took it from you.”?

      Pay the bills for HK? Are you dumb?
      You don’t think they deserve to keep their rights?
      You think just anyone can take what isn’t theirs to take?
      Are you really surprised people would object to having their culture raped?
      Just what do you think you’re entitled to?

      The burden mainland is dumping onto HK is wicked, and in time, HK will become a wretched place, exploited for resources, and a people destroyed.

    • Kim Jung iLL

      You are right. There is no point returning Hong Kong to China at all. Hong Kong has enjoyed high level of autonomy under British rule. It not about the bills that China is paying. Money don’t mean everything, which is the only thing occupying Chinese mind. This alone clearly shows the big cultural and thoughts differences between China and the rest of the world. In a foreigner perspective, Chinese mentality has not evolved much for the past centuries and continue to be as cocky as ever. Like it or not, if given a choice, Hong Kong would rather be return to the British.

    • JCheung

      Er maybe because Hong Kongers do not want to eat sewage for cooking oil; kill their own babies with poisoned milk powder; tear unborn babies from their mothers wombs or deal with the unbelievable level of corruption that the mainland offers.

      Seriously though, we need rule of law, our culture and our freedom of speech. Mainlanders do not even know the value of these things, so you do not understand why we are so scared of the mainland.

  • FYIADragoon

    Would rather not see any more of the mainland’s “quality” culture in Hong Kong.

  • Gay Azn Boi

    “…everywhere you go, you hear Putonghua. Sometimes I don’t know if the city still belongs to us.”

    Uhmm…HK is a global city. It doesn’t “belong” to you; never has, never will. It doesn’t matter if you’ve lived there all your life.

    • donscarletti

      Which makes perfect sense to people who either love global culture or come from an authentic local backwater. Not so happy for people who have the misfortune to be born in Hong Kong and happen to like Hong Kong culture.

      What I like about Hong Kong is that anyone can come and be part of the city. It is not a cold and alienating place to anyone. However, this is based on the assumption that you just have a steady stream of FILTH coming and leaving. Mainlanders however have far greater numbers behind them and are far less likely to consider Hong Kong to be a foreign country that they should adapt too.

      • Christina

        donscarletti you’re usually right on the money but I have to disagree with this one.

        “anyone can come and be part of the city-” anyone but mainlanders, even if they are well mannered and polite. There is just such a strong bias that ALL mainlanders are pretty much made to feel unwelcome.

        • Patrick

          Agreed, my son who is white and handsome would suddenly get attitude when speaking mandarin, people would ignore it even when it was clear they understood him.

          • John

            That’s because the local language is Cantonese or English, not Mandarin. Your son refusing to speak English when he is able to is an insult.

          • asdf

            @John
            Cantonese is a dying language. Nobody’s learning it except for hk natives. As you said it’s only an insult when people REFUSE to speak a language when they are ABLE to. Mainlanders don’t know how to speak Cantonese, they don’t want to speak Cantonese, they don’t need to speak Cantonese, and they don’t plan to learn Cantonese ever.

          • Rick in China

            Families (mostly Guangzhou) still speak Cantonese in the home. They learn Mandarin in schools of course, but day to day speak Cantonese – so do overseas Chinese from HK/Guangzhou, usually just oral not read/written, but cantonese is hardly a “dying language”.

          • Erm…I’ve been to Hong Kong, and I sometimes had to use Putonghua in restaurants to communicate with the waiters who spoke almost no English, but reasonable Putonghua. English may be an official language, but not everyone knows it. And isn’t Hong Kong officially part of a country whose official language is Putonghua?

          • coala banana

            “Cantonese is a dying language. Nobody’s learning it except for hk natives.”

            ???? ever been to GuangDong province ??? many of the older folks don’t even know mandarin….the kids learn it in school, but apart from that everyone speaks cantonese, young and old.

          • anon

            I want to confirm what Jixiang said. I’ve had more success using Mandarin than English in many places in Hong Kong, usually on the Kowloon side. Not disagreeing with English being one of the two main languages but just testifying to the utility of knowing Mandarin, which is far better than my Cantonese.

          • Rick in China

            Putonghua is more common than English – definitely true. Mostly in the younger crowds and with locals, of course, not with flips/foreigners, it really depends where you’re at or who you’re interacting with..but putonghua is perfectly acceptable to use in HK.

            The locals I know would be impressed with a foreigner speaking putonghua in HK, rather than offended or whatever other people experienced, but they would definitely identify a Chinese speaking putonghua as a mainlander and be more “prejudice” against them due to their own past experienced with mainlanders. I remember being in HK once on a holiday and asking one of my HK girls if she was interested in hanging out at disneyland since it was a beautiful day, she vehemently refused, because on holidays Disneyland is fully-occupied by mainlanders.

          • Canadian_Skies

            To ASDF above, China’s number of official languages is dropping over time. Mainland’s push to have minority languages “disappear” is all part of their one land or whatever it’s called action.

            Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, local dialects are becoming things people can learn to master in universities, instead.

            Replacing one culture with another is wrong.

          • The reason that Mandarin has become more widespread in Hong Kong is based on three logical factors.

            1. More mainland babies and landbuyers.

            2. More mainland shoppers leading to a push for Mandarin speakers in sales.

            3. A huge push for Mandarin to become standard in schools sincethe 97′ mistake. The extra lessons are often taught at the expense of English. However in the last year or so, there have been significant rumblings because the percentage of fluent English speakers has dropped below 30% and conversational English abilities has dropped below 60% (including the fluent people). So, recent policies by Hong Kong legislaturers have pushed for more English studies in an effort to maintain Hong Kong as an International country.

            Live in Hong Kong, know Hong Kong people, keep your eyes and ears open and it’s easy to understand what’s going on here.

        • anon

          It isn’t just mainlanders. Many Hong Kongers, like many other Chinese, are contemptuous of any underclass “ethnicities” or “nationalities”. Why do you think one of the most common criticisms of Hong Kong society and culture is its materialism and superficiality? South East Asians and Indians are also heavily discriminated against in Hong Kong, much less blacks. Hong Kong can definitely be a cold and alienating place to many people.

          • Alan

            South East Asians and Indians are also heavily discriminated against in Hong Kong, much less blacks. Hong Kong can definitely be a cold and alienating place to many people.

            Agreed.

            Elijah’s comments of it being a international city of multi-culturalism doesn’t wash. I have witnessed how mainlanders are treated, even though they are spending money there, and then how the africans, indians and the nepalis were treated.

            Lest us forget the case of the Gurkhas:(

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-541073/Give-heroes-like-Rai-home-Britain-Falklands-general-says.html

            Did their job protecting HK, but post 1997 unwanted and left stateless…damn right Britain should give them a home imho!!!

          • some girl

            alan, are you south east asian or indian? because i am south east asian and i wasn’t heavily discriminated against. as a matter of fact, hong kong felt the closest to home away from shanghai.

            are you just generalizing or what?

          • BigCAD

            Replying to Alan below, article dates from 2008, those who retired prior to 2007 were in the end allowed to move to the UK about two years back, unfortunatly the result was much the same as the mainland flood in to HK, rather it took place in Aldershite instead. Piss poor forward planning on the part of bleeding hearts for those who deserved better.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8786802/Aldershot-the-town-turning-away-the-Gurkhas.html

          • BigCAD

            *1997 even

          • Alan

            alan, are you south east asian or indian? because i am south east asian and i wasn’t heavily discriminated against. as a matter of fact, hong kong felt the closest to home away from shanghai.

            are you just generalizing or what?

            Sorry, if my post came across as generalizing.

            Not south east asian, but look at how the vietnamese were treated, and I’ve seen how the south asians are treated there. Not sure you can convince me it is a multicultural utopia!

          • Rick in China

            HK is in my opinion the *MOST* multicultural place to be in Asia. Close second is Singapore, lots of SE asia mixture, but less of an international presence (I don’t think I’ve seen an African in Singapore……)

            I know who locals discriminate against. I don’t spend time with foreigners in HK, all my friends are locals, and we talk all the time even when I’m not there. They do have generalized ideas of some races — ie flips in HK are mostly nannies/maids/singers, indians are selling fake shit in kowloon and cheap(cheaply made) suits, and Africans are looking for export deals to pump cheap shit from China to Africa. If you think these aren’t *generally true*, perhaps you don’t know HK very well.

            Do these generalizations equate to racial prejudice? I think it’s based on experiences which are *valid* experiences, and mostly *true* if you spend time there. Do the locals (the ones I know anyways) discriminate against ie not communicate with those people in a friendly fashion when they’re in a situation that calls for it? Hell no. On Sundays when the flip nannies have their ho-downs under inner city bridges and overpasses I asked one of my friends what all that was about, she felt compassion for their situations – not contempt. Don’t mistake generalization based on factual experiences in a very small and tightly knit society with prejudice against race.

          • anon

            No, generalizations aren’t necessarily seen as racial prejudice but generalizations that are seen as negative are often considered racial prejudice. Regarding certain people or making comments about groups of people (not individuals) that evidence a measure of contempt or disdain is racial prejudice.

            I think there’s more than enough evidence of discrimination and prejudice in Hong Kong for a categorical denial to be misguided, just as misguided as claiming all Hong Kong people are prejudiced is. The trap people like to fall into is arguing over “how much” when the answer is usually “enough for it to be valid issue” and “not enough to damn the whole lot of them.” And the only reason people get into this argument is to compare with others so they can feel superior or put down others.

          • Alan

            indians are selling fake shit in kowloon and cheap(cheaply made) suits, and Africans are looking for export deals to pump cheap shit from China to Africa. If you think these aren’t *generally true*, perhaps you don’t know HK very well.

            Just trying to make a living are they not?

            Better than staying in Africa or India and waiting for death?

          • Rick in China

            I never said it’s a bad thing or something to be looked at with contempt. I just said it’s a generalization that people make because people experience it daily when you go through those areas. It’s not a prejudice, it’s a fact, whether it’s right/wrong..

          • Alan

            in an effort to maintain Hong Kong as an International country.

            Here we go again, think my head is going to explode.

            Not country, CITY, dear lad,CITY, don’t you get it?

            It is a special administrative region. It wasn’t even a country under british rule, it is part of a country though, China.

            I bet you believe Macau still belongs to portugal, or is independent because it has it’s own internet domain, .mo

            Well the EU has an internet domain, but is that a country? NO!

            Show me where online, and not just your factless ramblings about currency, financial system,police etc etc yada yada, that Hong Kong is a country and a member of the United Nations or ASEAN and I will concede.

          • Rick in China

            @Alan RE: “Here we go again, think my head is going to explode”

            You’re trying to place a unique place into your box.

            Hong Kong… isn’t as we “English” call it a country, or a city, or a town, or a territory, or a .. whatever. It’s Hong Kong. Your fault is in trying to apply your current jurisdiction and definition to a unique place in the world – similar, but unique – to Macau and Singapore.

            Think outside your box. it’s not a city. It’s not a country. Hong Kong, from a people perspective, are sometimes going to reply they are from a “British colony” – sometimes “a territory of China”, or sometimes “neither, we’re Hong Kong”. There are probably other valid responses. It’s a unique place in the world. yer box doesn’t fit.

            It is what it is. We can argue all day about how to place it in some sort of definition, but that wont go anywhere. What will is that it’s Hong Kong: experience it, love it for what it is, and learn from the people who’ve lived through its multiple personality-shifts (from an international sociopolitical perspective). It wont change drastically – because ultimately, HK is the type of place any non-homogeneous libertarian society destines to become.

    • jeffli

      POOR GAY AZN BOI!
      all the mainland gays (like Hongjian?…) chasing you with stinky tofu breath and rotting teeth offering you warm copy beer for a BJ and a rim!

      You’ll turn straight in no time or emigrate to Brazil! lol

      be careful mon cherie! stinky dix are coming to getcha!

      • Gay Azn Boi

        Dude I live in Toronto -__-

        • glcn

          Dude, he lives in Toronto….

          • staylost

            Dude, Toronto living.

          • Patrick

            Dude, the Toronto life!

          • mr. wiener

            Oh..The dude lives in Toronto eh?

          • coala banana

            heard he lives in Toronto ?

    • pervertt

      It does matter, GAB. Anywhere in the world where there has been a rapid influx of newcomers, there is usually resentment by established residents against those who bring unfamiliar habits, customs and language with them. Some of this resentment may be based on intolerance or bigotry, but undoubtedly a large part is based on concerns of those who feel their identity is under threat.

      HK may well be a global city, but Cantonese (not English, not Putonghua) is the lingua franca of this city. Just after WW2, HK was flooded with migrants from all over China. Whatever their origins, most eventually learned to speak Cantonese, the language predominantly spoken in the Guangzhou district. The ability to converse in Cantonese is therefore one of the things that helped to forge a common HK identity.

      Frankly, I think China would be a poorer place if there were no regional differences and if everyone spoke only Putonghua.

      • Alan

        The ability to converse in Cantonese is therefore one of the things that helped to forge a common HK identity

        I would agree, hence the current Guangdong-HK projects.

  • jeffli

    I have lots of good Chinese friends but…..
    I can imagine the idiot son of a government official visiting Hong Kong by car and killing someone and shouting 我爸是李刚! or some other idiot officials name.

    Mainland Chinese BRATS are terrible! (Brats = children of rich and powerful mainlanders) Just like those idiot Taiwanese GMT brats that go to the US!

    I’ve seen them in action and Hong Kong does not want these swarms of idiots!. They are the lowest of low culture!

    They give China mainland the bad name! I think they should be banned from traveling outside China. They should just F*** OFF AND DIE!
    I seen one push over an elderly citizen and just blurt a quick sorry – quite possibly this citizen’s hip was injured!

    I’m even sick of hearing some BRAT coming to my country and criticising it! We don’t have poisoned food, over populated areas, kids kidnapped and working the street as beggars, Our fruit and vegetables, milk, drinking water is clean.
    They have money because their Father a govt. official is taking bribes.

    They are the lowest of low shit children. I hate the general BRAT population I blame them and their parents and grand parents for this. the one child excuse is bull!

    Wake up mainland China and control yourself! Stop acting like culture-less pigs!
    And stop blaming Japanese / foreigners for the state of your country! This place was already a mess since before the Qin dynasty!

    To all the young boy brats around the world reading this -> Do us all a favour – stick your head in the oven and turn on the gas!

    Hong Kong is a nice place (crowded but nice) now its going to be dangerous!

  • Hongjian

    Cool Story. This is just standard development between a highly developed region being open to a rather lowly developed region (and in terms of Guangdong, the “lowly developed” attribute fits the bill with civilizatory development of the Guangdonese people, who are nearly universally loathed in the rest of China for their shitty characters). This is why rich countries aways have harsh border controls and immigration laws aimed against poor countries, or similiarily, why China’s better developed cities still lobby for the continious enforcement of the Hukou-system, which, in their hopes, could help making the live of the poor peasants flowing into their cities as shit as possible, so to disencourage their continious inflow. Which doesnt really help, though.
    Poor always flows to the rich. This is natural law. Rural/poverty exodus isnt a exclusively chinese thing.

    But in the case of HK vs. the Mainland, it is the first time in the human history and its socio-economic development, that the poor now has the bigger stick than the rich one.
    So, the Hong Kong Garrison Brigade of the PLA Guangzhou MR exists for a reason: If those arrogant, integration-denying shitstains act up one day, forgetting in all their illusions of wealth, durrmocracy and freedom that now the poor have the guns, I’ll enjoy these stupid fucks getting ripped into smoked minced meat by the Brigade’s QLZ-87 automatic grenade launchers, chambered for the 35mm high explosive incindiary rounds, specially designed to turn the enemies of China into lumbs of bloody, burning flesh, before having their liquified remains mixed into the roads by the wheels of the armoured personell carriers those weapons are mounted on.

    That Locust-shit is all fun and game, until those “locust” are fed up and shoot you in the head. Because they can, and you cannot.

    • jeffli

      I agree with GAY AZN BOI.

      Oh and Hongjian, stop riding on the back of people like LI GANG! Just not cricket.

      Honkies are more cultured and open minded than the mainland. Oh I don’t there’ll be poor mainlanders coming across, they normally work hard in labour or prostitution, Its the middle class and rich locusts that are the problem! They are the ones that go to other countries and make a mess everywhere because they don’t know any better! Any mainlander with any class and culture gets locked up on fake “tax evasion”. Mainland is still a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY! IT IS FROOT LOOP!
      AS THE “BROTHERS” WOULD SAY “F888 UP MAN!”

      • Hongjian

        you write like a retard. not going to follow you anymore.

    • pervertt

      Hongjian – about the universality of poor people wanting to move into richer environments – this is not just about money and snobbish HK residents looking down on poor mainlanders. HK was built on migration and its citizens know it. There are numerous HK tycoons who started out as poor migrants and who subsequently did well.

      It would seem that HK residents also have a beef with rich mainlanders who bring not just their money but also some less savoury habits as well. The rich ones seem to be some of the worst offenders, for they think their money can buy them anything including respect. If they behaved well and respected local culture, I’m sure they would be welcome anywhere in the world, not just in HK.

      • Hongjian

        As by “rich” I didnt only mean the financial/economic aspect of “being rich”, but also the rich in terms of civilizatory advancement, including, but not limited to, social welfare, ‘real harmony’ and sanctioned safety measures.

        The “rich mainland offenders” who go to HK shitting things up, arent there for the economic prosperity of HK, as they are well-off themselves. They are there because of the other “riches” of HK, as in their health-care, welfare, and food and product-safety guarantees. So, in the end, the “poor to rich” equation still stands. Just not poor or rich in a conventional, economical and financial sense, but in a sense of the other niceties a “rich region” will provide for the “poor” in question. And in this sense, the mainland rich, is still very very poor in every regard besides money.

        But, as said before, this time and for the first time in history, the “poor” holds absolutely all cards in hand. So, the “rich” one has absolutely no chance to safe himself from the inevitable buttrape, until the poor becomes equally rich on all fields aside of the financial and economic parts.

        • 印度杰

          its rare when I found myself agree with what hongjian write.

          I’ve lived for 7years now in Luo Hu of shenzhen and will just say Hongkongers are worst when they come to Mainland just go around in any club, retaurent, mall or anywhere when they cross the border and come to mainland I personally have have experianced also confirmed with a local Police official friend that the most of fights , or voilence at nights whether in clubs or in street with 70% 2865 FIR against them since 2009-2011 August。

          I’ve some good friends from Hongkong and they are very well civilized as well but mostly Hongkongers who cross the border are with the supirior complex and they do what they do since from ages after they cross and come in but now its hard to bear for them when farmers have money and they are pissed in Shenzhen and in their own city.

          “But, as said before, this time and for the first time in history, the “poor” holds absolutely all cards in hand. So, the “rich” one has absolutely no chance to safe himself from the inevitable buttrape”

          Agree with this as it always hurts when “bullies become bullies and pussies get pushed”

          I will add this always happen when “

          • 印度杰

            its rare when I found myself agree with what hongjian write.

            I’ve lived for 7years now in Luo Hu of shenzhen and will just say Hongkongers are worst when they come to Mainland just go around in any club, retaurent, mall or anywhere when they cross the border and come to mainland I personally have have experianced also confirmed with a local Police official friend that the most of fights , or voilence at nights whether in clubs or in street with 70% 2865 FIR against them since 2009-2011 August。

            I’ve some good friends from Hongkong and they are very well civilized as well but mostly Hongkongers who cross the border are with the supirior complex and they do what they do since from ages after they cross and come in but now its hard to bear for them when farmers have money and they are pissed in Shenzhen and in their own city.

            “But, as said before, this time and for the first time in history, the “poor” holds absolutely all cards in hand. So, the “rich” one has absolutely no chance to safe himself from the inevitable buttrape”

            Agree with this as it always hurts when “bullies become bullied and pussies get pushed”

        • Steve

          I mostly agree with your points, though I don’t know why you have a bad reputation here, lol. I think what you are getting at is Hong Kong has a higher opulence than China. Generally meaning, they have better standard of living and social welfare that protect their citizens, so it is reasonable that there is a influx of people to wealthy areas. And because of this, there is an innate defense mechanism that causes people to discriminate. As far as I can remember, HKers have had a biased towards Mainlanders, even when Hk was still under British colony. They tend to judge ML and card them as inferior.

          I don’t want to put all the blame on HK for their blatancy – it doesn’t help when China has the hukou system and one-child policy in place, which exacerbates this situation. I think HK needs to tone down the rhetoric and treat ML more fairly.

          • Hongjian

            ML’s Hukou system is pretty much the same as the HK “locust”-discrimination, or similiarily like the EU’s gunboats patroling the mediterranean sea in search for african refugee-boats they can raid and send back their half-starved and dehydrated passengers to the famine-struck, civil-war shithole they came from.
            All of this is standard human behaviour – the rich dont want to share with the poor, despite all the humanist rhetoric and their ethical, moral foundations, they have built up in all their wealth ad prosperity.
            Hukou isnt anything else than a half-assed attempt at holding back the flood of people resulting from the inevitable rural and poverty exodus, any country during their industrial revolution will have to experience. 19th century great britain can tell you the same.
            If the ML rich cities dont want the poor flowing into their turf, they should just ditch the Hukou-system and instead errect a fucking wall plastered with automatic computer-controlled machinegun-turrets that are programmed to shoot everyone who looks poor.
            But since this wont happen, the HK fags should also lower a notch in their locust-bullshit, as they arent the only ones with that inevitable socio-economic problem.

            Hell, it seems that China (all of China; not only the ML but also the SAR and even fucking Taiwan) are pretty much all just fucking children, who still have to experience all those inevitable problems that are automatically coming from the rapid industrialization of a large country. In a couple of decades, they will all laugh about their own inexperience and naiivety for getting so butt-mad at those obvious and inevitable things…

          • dim mak

            Comrade Hongjian makes the smartest post in this thread ^

    • moop

      wow, the pla sure does sound tough, you forgot to mention their carrier pigeons

    • Shanghairen

      Hongjian, you have angry nationalism issues. I’m not sure why the young Chinese are so angry.

      About driving: Driving on the other side of the road makes you more cautious, so I wouldn’t worry too much about Hong Kong having some kind of clash of driving cultures.

      • Little Wolf

        Personally, I would say the cautiousness is evened out by driving a car with a left-handed steering wheel in Hong Kong as it’s hard to see around traffic in front of you to pass. I drove in the Bahamas for almost 3 years and it was easy to adapt since there was hardly any traffic. But it took me at least a coupla weeks to get re-acclimated to US traffic and driving on the right. I consider myself a skilled and careful driver and still had a few hair-raising near misses (or is it “near hits?) I think even a good driver takes time to get used to driving on the other side. I know Sweden changed over from left to right OVERNIGHT after several months of planning and PSAs without too many problems but again…it was 1967 and probably not alot of traffic.

  • Torgo time

    I thought this site was supposed to be about what the Mainland netizen thought of topics like this. This post only let’s us hear from an HK and foreigner point of view of the situation.

  • Alex

    Anything on Chen GuangCheng?

    • Phil

      Either it’s taking a while to put together the comments or it’s a touchy subject that Fauna rather not discuss being a Chinese based blog and all.

  • curl of the burl

    This is is a bit off topic but I find it the reports on a certain visually challenged lawyer and the timing of his flight extremely co-incidental, as this case as diverted much honed attention from a certain fallen g o v t angel. Call me paranoid, but it if this was actually their purpose, then this incident has served it rather well.

  • nameless

    In 2011 i was in the Louis Vuitton store with my wife and there was a mainland tourist in the shop. He light up a cigarette right in the store, after the worker approached him and asked him to extinguish the cigarette he threw it on the floor and stepped on it and said “ne ge bao, wo yao liang ge kuai dian”.

    This sums it up, and the word is “NEW MONEY”, i dont think i need to elaborate further on this but i would say about a good 70% of the chinese population is “NEW MONEY” and believes that just because they can buy it they dont need to respect or mantain any ettiquete. I think Shanghai is working on teaching manners and so should the rest of the cities. In North America this would not be visible, even for our flavor of new money. As a result i dont blame HKer’s for their need to distinguish themselves and i dont blame them for trying to keep those borders closed and i definately dont blame them for their concerns over the situation.

    my little hk coin on the whole situation.

    • pervertt

      NEW money + OLD habits are a priceless mix.

      For everything else, there’s Mastercard :)

      • slim shady

        that wasnt funny , next time you make a comment thats stupid like this one, im gonna bitch slap you

        • mr. wiener

          I thought it was a fair observation.
          Just curious as to how you planned on bitch slapping him,, perhaps with your acidic streatsmarts and pithy comments?
          I know! you could have a rap battle!
          Super Happy Cow please provide the back beat.

          • slim shady

            you trying to be witty and funny , you dumb shit ,,i will backhand your mom in the face

          • mr. wiener

            “I know his dad’s abusive,
            And his mother prefer’s her daughter,
            I know he’s got attention deficiency disorder.
            He’s culturally excluded,
            And he’s genetically inbred,
            But the reason he’s a homeboy is because he’s a dickhead.

            We all support empowerment, And positive discrimination,
            When your age, your sex , your race, your face,
            Determine your social station,
            A baseball cap and a love of rap,
            Might need sympathy ,but still…
            Possible this homeboy could be a dickhead pure and simple.

          • mr. wiener

            Thanks to TISM.
            You have been served.

        • pervertt

          slim shady – get a life, breathe some fresh air and grow a sense of humour. What exactly do you find unfunny about my comment?

          • mr. wiener

            Probably because it confused him. Poor dorky little Chinese homie.

          • pervertt

            Well, so far he has threatened to BITCH slap me, backhand your MOM and dropkick Alejandro’s GRANDMA.

            Sounds like he’s married.

          • Brett Hunan

            He’s been trolling around koreaBANG too. Mods threatened to ban his IP so he ran to chinaSMACK

      • jeffli

        new money + bad habits due to lack of culture!

        It does have a cost! Look at the mess in Mainland China.
        Childrens death due to tainted food. – Milk, rice, fruit

        Middle and upper class killing students with their cars.
        Hefei incident, and then Li QiMing

        Locking anyone up on “tax evasion” – Tax law in China is a joke, just wave a “fapiao”.

        Corrupt and inept medical system – both public and private.

        Aging old fuddy duddies with no education background (1966 they were in the country side remember?) running the country.

        If these zombies want to visit and spend money in my country then ok but not in plague proportions (locust plague) limit their numbers. So now we’ll get the well connected , govt. official types that think they can buy their way out of anything! They are smoking in shops and restaurants.
        they also should not drive in HK! the system is different and mainlanders Never check their rear and side mirrors before changing lanes!

        • william

          uhh, china has been governed by technocrats for a good 30 years now.

  • Alejandro

    It’s easier to go bother the other countries than to fix your own ! I know this world isn’t fair.. but somehow, HK people’s feelings are in the right place. They don’t want any spitting-screaming-take a shit on the street- Mainlanders. And even worse, those Mainlanders who are rich are as uncivilized as the poor ones, so they won’t try to fix their own situation- nooooooo, the police will come and get them! Fucking Locust pussies, so proud of their 5000 year backwards culture.
    PS: I write with such contempt because I live in Mainland China and I’ve been to Hong Kong too. Understanding them with certain depth and having accepted their culture and traditions (something they won’t do in my country), I feel I have the right to criticize them… something they should do too. Heyhey CCPP! too much dust under the carpet !

    • slim shady

      stupid white boy , get the fuck outta my country , i will drop kick your grandma ,

      • this article once again proves chinese women only have the GUTS to attack other chinese, never any whites-blacks-vietnamese or even somalis

        • mr. wiener

          Actually when there where Vietnamese refugees in HK . the locals had a lot of demonstrations before they finally kicked them out. Amongst other things they said the Viets were “Noisy” and “their food is smelly” which to me is hilarious hypocracy.
          The HKers criticize the mainlanders like everyone with a large and powerful neighbor does. EG: Canadians and Americans, Irish and the British etc.

          • slim shady

            mr wiener your first name must be small
            stop sniffing your moms panties and wearing her bra
            you think your funny and smart but you not
            keep looking like a retard and picking your snot
            you know you got picked on when you were a kid
            the boys give you wedges, all you do is look at the skid
            now turn around i got an itch
            bend over hunny im gonna make you my bitch

          • mr. wiener

            That was pretty good,except “small” and “bra” don’t rhyme.
            From what you’ve said you are Chinese and your….kinda ghetto. I’m not judging mind you, You have an identity, good for you.So I’m guessing you were educated in the states…But doesn’t it bother you that people didn’t take you seriously there and you have to go back to china an surround yourself with wannabe “Chiggers” [for want of a better word] in order to be in the “in” crowd?
            Don’t worry, I’m not expecting a serious answer. Which of my relatives would you like to say you’ll assault this time?

          • mr. wiener

            …Oh, and my 1st name is “Hugh” , short for “Huge” :)

          • slim shady

            me from the states , eck , wrong answer
            ghetto , eck wrong answer
            living in china , eck also wrong answer

            sleep time , let there be peace in the middle east

          • mr. wiener

            Sleep well, dream of large vaginas …studded with sharp teath.

          • Wow…

            I really like Eminem’s music and find him to be both insightful and entertaining.

            This… This is just… Wrong.

            At times like this I ask myself “Will the real Slimshady please stand up?”.

          • MassiveBender

            Totally, it seems just the standard immigrant bashing that happens in all countries with a moral panic thrown in the mix concerning a massive conspiracy masterminded by mainland mothers and the least communist communists in the world, the CCP. You’re also totally right that this is compounded by China proper being so big and on the doorstep. In the West the equivalent would be the fear of the eventual imposition of Sharia law caused by massive Muslim immigration.

            Despite Hong Kong being a very cosmopolitan city, I think they are blaming the mainlanders because they are an easy target: if you attack Chinese people in the democratic Western bloc it will cause much less controversy than a group not from the Evil Empire 2. Also they are a visible minority; if it wasn’t mainlanders it would probably be people from the Philippines. Like most stereotypes there is an element of truth to it: mainlanders are either poorer or they are vulgar, stupid and nouveau riche. The article is a good display of Hong Kong’s rich cultural heritage, with generic Asian xenophobia and a British island mentality.

    • BlackSugarDaddy

      China should just wipe out the entire puny yapping ungrateful Honkie species once and for all, and launch another culture revolution on gringos living on Chinese people, fucking Chinese women but having an intractable sinophobia, starting from the white trash !

      • asdf

        it’s not just hongkong. I see this type of attitude in every big Chinese city. People from Shanghai and Beijing are equally snobbish. In shanghai if you ask for directions in putonghua instead of local dialect and you pretty much don’t exist. I used to think that this snobbish attitude will disappear after living conditions in china are improved, but hongkongers are proof that it won’t happen any time soon.

      • Alt-Z

        Be careful with the concept of what goes around comes around. The next time the Chinese get slaughtered wholesale, which is by the way a possibility lot less remote than HKers getting slaughtered wholesale, your post will serve as a reminder to the world why nobody should give a shit.

  • Castro

    Hong Kong has a Long Dong.
    Mainlander has a Wrong Dong.

    Wrong Dong because too short Dong,
    So, they come to Hong Kong to get a Long Dong.

    (I’ll say it first… Huh ?). :-o

    I’ll bust out of this closet yet !!

  • Johnny Basic

    I’m not greatly familiar with the geography of Hong Kong, so I could be barking up the wrong tree here but…

    …couldn’t Hong Kong just build a bunch of megamalls right on the border with China, far away from the downtown? I mean it’s not like the majority of mainland tourists visit in order to soak up Hong Kong’s distinctive culture, I’m sure it won’t bother them unduly if they don’t get to take a trip on the Star Ferry or eat at a traditional family diner.

    There’s something like this in Sanya, a big tax-free mall where all the shopping tourists flock to, rather than shops being spread out across the city. It’d be great for all concerned if HK could cordon off the locusts in a similar fashion.

    • Andao

      Well, like the article says there isn’t enough land authorized for commercial use. In the north there’s also a big “greenbelt” environmental area.

      There’s a big mall in Shatin which is about halfway between the border and downtown and it’s an absolute ZOO all the time, every day.

      Most of the northern areas along the rail line are pretty residential, so they’d need to build new infrastructure to megamall land. Or tear down all the existing houses. That might be a problem.

      • Johnny Basic

        Ah, you’re right, I probably should have read the whole thing first! Sounds like this Lui Ting-ming fella’s proposing the same thing I did. A locust policy of ‘cordon off and contain’ is definitely the way forward for Hong Kong planners!

        Would be great if they could somehow manage something like that. In Macau, the picturesque, colonial old parts are more or less locust-free, as all the mainland numbskulls just head straight for the casinos.

        • Alan

          In Macau, the picturesque, colonial old parts are more or less locust-free, as all the mainland numbskulls just head straight for the casinos.

          Lol, your right, I have visited a few times when I lived in Zhongshan, it was always the same.

          No interest in the culture or history, straight to the casinos and then restaurant, idiots.

          • dim mak

            That’s because Macau has no history, and only some shitty Portuguese ruins that should be torn down and replaced with Chinese-style architecture.

            That said, they should just allow casinos on the mainland. Oldtime politicians need to snap out of Mao-induced retardation and smell the profits again.

  • rightthen

    Many mainlanders don’t know what they do is wrong, correct them then…

  • Andao

    I like how the mainlander response to dealing with problems is “flee.” Forget the fact that everyone else in your country has to deal with crummy hospitals, food, schooling, etc. Instead of trying to improve it, just run for the exits.

    • anon

      You mean like the many Hong Kong people who fled abroad during the 1997 handover? Or during the SARS epidemic?

      It is in the nature of people to go where there are resources they desire. That’s been the history of all migrant and immigration trends around the world.

      • Andao

        That’s silly and simplistic. You’re right in those two cases, that’s exactly what the HK people did. I think it’s lousy they did that, just like it’s lousy mainlanders don’t give a damn about improving their own country’s healthcare or education.

        • anon

          No, silly and simplistic is your initial comment AND this latest one. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest mainlanders don’t give a damn about improving their own country’s healthcare or education while there’s plenty of evidence to the contrary. I appreciate you acknowledging the validity of my responses but are you even listening to what you’re saying?

      • Alt-Z

        The handover was the crushing of an ant by a bulldozer. There is nothing an average HKer can do about it. SARS is akin to a natural disaster. If you were told an 8.0 earthquake will hit your area next week, you’d flee too, at least into some kind of safe shelter, rather than stay inside your house and “improve the situation”. BTW you may want to research how SARS got started. It sheds much light on a particular kind of mainland Chinese mentality that you seem to embody quite well.

        These are qualitatively different from when a mainland Chinese goes to have anchor babies overseas. He’s in no immediate danger. He can improve his society gradually. If nothing else he can adopt an “I need to improve” attitude instead of whining to the rest of the world why it’s wrong to look down on his behavior. Instead he shows his utter hypocrisy by going out of his way to ensure that his offsprings will be part of those people.

        • anon

          Oh, so you DO understand what a victim of circumstance is? Strange, what’s with the double-standard then? On one hand, you don’t blame the average HKer for being handed back to mainland China in 1997 yet you slam mainland Chinese as having inflicted their uncouth behavior and upbringing upon themselves?

          The Cultural Revolution was akin to a natural disaster as well, exacerbated by the actions or inactions of people in decision-making positions and power, and unlike many of the wealthy who were able to buy passage to flee to Taiwan or Hong Kong, many mainland Chinese ancestors couldn’t afford it and had to stay put and weather the best they could. Is it a wonder that they grew up with different manners and habits from Hong Kongers?

          The point that you seem to be conveniently ignoring is that mainland Chinese are hardly the only people having anchor babies overseas or doing what they can in pursuit of a better life and future for themselves according to what resources they have available. Do we accuse all these other people of “fleeing”? Of not sticking put and trying to improve their country? No, and THAT’s hypocrisy.

          • Little Wolf

            I thought people only left their country because they’re fat losers that can’t get laid. Oh wait…that’s why foreigners come to China.

            This birthing thing is not just a Hong Kong thing. There are a number of Chinese companies running rackets of birth tourism in the US to gain birthright and operate without any impunity.

          • Alt-Z

            There is no double standard. You cannot blame the average HKer for being handed back because he could not resist in the slightest way. The Communist takeover of China, however, was the choice of the overwhelming majority of mainlanders, either through active participation or passive nonresistance, plus subsequently 60 plus years of open support, which continues to this day, as evidenced by your repeated justification of mainland Chinese behavior. That their descendants now attempt to claim innocence on their behalf should be considered blasphemy.

            The forefathers of the mainland Chinese brought uncouth behavior upon their children by selecting a peasant regime, and the present-day mainland Chinese inflict uncouth behavior upon themselves by rejecting criticism directed toward it. The Cultural Revolution was not akin to a natural disaster. It was just another day’s, or in this case, decade’s work for gun-toting peasants. Its occurrence was guaranteed back in 1949, just as your repeated justification of street defecation by mainland tourists in HK was guaranteed back in 1949.

            It’s true that to pursue a better life elsewhere through unwelcome means is not unique to the mainland Chinese. Even though I would still accuse all such people of fleeing, I can understand their plight, except for the mainland Chinese. An African seeking to enter Europe does not raise his fists and shout: “my people stood up in 1949!”. A Mexican sneaking into the U.S. does not chant: “The five star red flag flutters in the wind, the songs of victory ever so resounding!”

            The mainland Chinese are not despicable for being poor, filthy, and backward. There are lots and lots of such people in the world. The mainland Chinese are unique in that their poverty, filth, and backwardness are accompanied by a sense of superiority and pride so bizarre that the combination can be said to be unmatched in human history.

            A loser might deserve pity, if you’re generous. A loser who keeps his mouth shut and minds his own business actually deserves respect. A loser who shoves his attitude in other people’s faces deserves nothing but contempt.

          • anon

            You’re just being disingenuous now. The average Hong Konger could resist the handover in the same way the average Chinese resident could resist the Communist Revolution. Both could fight back or not fight back to the same degree. Next thing you’ll be saying is Native Americans and aboriginal Taiwanese are in open support of being colonized by European powers and marginalized by the mainland KMT. Are Hong Konger’s guilty of their active participation or passive nonresistence of British occupation and colonialism? So are the vast majority of Hong Kongers equally guilty of inflicting this mainland scourge upon themselves by actively taking mainland tourist money and not engaging in insurgency against the central government and terrorism of mainland visitors?

            Double-standard, pure and simple.

            Many mainland Chinese are quite aware of how the history of their country has shaped their present society, just as Hong Kongers are aware of how their history has shaped them. The problem is your sense of exceptionalism, that you’re somehow not bound by the same measures as others. I have never “justified” the uncouth behaviors of mainland Chinese. Instead, I’ve put it in historical and sociological perspective, which you conveniently want to ignore for them but not for Hong Kongers. Why is that?

            Double standard.

            There’s ample evidence of mainland Chinese accepting, corroborating, and even echoing criticism of their society and the uncouth behaviors of many of its members. Just look on this website. Just because they have cause to think many Hong Kongers are going too far and becoming self-righteous hypocrites about it doesn’t mean they reject criticism wholesale. It just means they’re human, and that sometimes criticism does go too far or that some people have less tolerance for it than others. These are hardly concepts that Hong Kongers are unfamiliar with.

            Your intellectual dishonesty is ridiculous. There are many Africans and Mexicans who still feel pride about their ethnic and national backgrounds just as there are many mainland Chinese who aren’t blindly nationalistic.

            By all means, hate on those who have an unwarranted sense of superiority, but you’re being equally egotistical in your own generalizing behavior here refusing to acknowledge the double-standards you’re employing to rationalize and justify the bigotry you’re spouting. You’re no different from the mainland Chinese fenqing who run into some arrogant Hong Kongers and subsequently flame all Hong Kongers as being race-traitors with an outsized sense of superiority.

          • Yeah, Hong Kongers did and still do protest against Mainland influence.

            It’s obvious to anyone who actually lives here.

            A double standard would be saying the the teeny tiny microscopic fraction of people who actively opposes the current regime can be indicative of anything, while numerous street marches, political groups and mass gatherings in Hong Kong don’t show a clear desire and will to change their society for the better.

            Unlike the mainlanders, in your scenario, Hong Kongers literally had no choice in the matter of being forcefully taken over. Mainlanders did by virtue of the ‘government’ they supported/support

          • Alt-Z

            I’m not being disingenuous. You are just confused. It was you who said that the majority of mainlanders were convinced by the Communists. In what way is that not saying that the majority of mainlanders are responsible for their current situation? Those who were not convinced fled, for example to Hong Kong, since fighting back against an overwhelming majority is suicide.

            In the same way, fighting back against 1997 is suicide, and thus it is perfectly understandable for a HKer to flee. There is no hypocrisy or guilt in this act, which is one of ensuring the survival of his present way of life. In what way is a mainlander having anchor babies overseas ensuring the survival of his present way of life? How can these two acts be considered morally equivalent?

            The fundamental hypocrisy of the typical Chinese mainlander, who is an emotional coward incapable of publicly admitting that his government, his country, and his society are a total and utter fuck-up, is in his readiness to write a few snippets of apparent self-criticism to cover up his deep and unbreakable devotion to that same fucked up government, country, and society. Here are a few snippets of self-criticism:

            “Many mainland Chinese are quite aware of how the history of their country has shaped their present society”
            “There’s ample evidence of mainland Chinese accepting, corroborating, and even echoing criticism of their society”
            “it doesn’t mean they reject criticism wholesale”
            “there are many mainland Chinese who aren’t blindly nationalistic”

            And here is what gives it all away:

            “not engaging in insurgency against the central government”
            “There are many Africans and Mexicans who still feel pride about their ethnic and national backgrounds.”

            That central government of yours is one which HKers pay lip service to only. They do not consider it their real government, unlike you. Since that government was founded by and is made up of Communists, try not to deny it when others say that you are a willing subject of the Communists.

            A Chinese who feels pride in his ethnic and national background would not mention “1949” or the “five star red flag” in their display of pride, unless they are devoted to the present government. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with such devotion. Just don’t deny it when others mention that you are devoted to the Communists.

            I am going to ask you a few questions personally, which should be asked to each and every Chinese mainlander.

            1. Was the Communists takeover of China a good thing?
            2. If yes, why are you so apologetic about its coming to power?
            3. If no, why are you nevertheless devoted to it as a willing subject?

          • anon

            Elijah,

            Do you really think I don’t know that some Hong Kongers have protested against mainland influence? Just as mainland Chinese have protested against central government laws, policies, and governance? Both are obvious and you don’t have to live in either to know it.

            Sorry, you’re twisting the definition of double-standard. In both instances, the protests are a minority of the overall population that isn’t effective large-scale change in short time-frames.

            Hong Kongers have the same choices as mainlanders do: Flee, resist, revolt, protest, endure, make do, resign, accept, support, participate. The vast majority in both instances, in British Occupation, in the Handover as well as the Communist Revolution belong to the “endure, make do, resign, and accept” categories. You’ve been buying into Communist propaganda if you think the vast majority of the mainland Chinese population were in support or participation of the Communist Revolution. The vast majority of people are victims or circumstance who are just trying to get by in life. This is true everywhere. Blaming the average mainland Chinese person for not overthrowing Mao is about as unrealistic as blaming the average Hong Konger for not overthrowing the British colonialism of Hong Kong. Get real, most people are not revolutionaries and just try to survive against forces they perceive as greater than they are.

            Alt-Z,

            You’re right, your not being disingenuous. As I later realized, you’re just an unrepentant bigot.

            You’re right that I said a majority of mainlanders were convinced by the Communists. They were convinced that they didn’t need to flee or resist the changing of the guards. They were convinced that life will go on and things aren’t definitely going to be worse or so bad that they better get out or fight now. The Communist ideology of better treatment for workers and peasants was definitely appealing, especially in the context of a KMT regime that was mired in corruption and coddling urbanites. Your mistake and the foundation of your double-standard bigotry is in your inability to see things from their perspective and blaming them for what they could not predict, with the benefit of our hindsight.

            Both resisting the Communist Revolution and the 1997 Handover could’ve been suicide, but it was still an option. Yet in both instances, the majority of the respective populations acquiesced, again, convinced that it wasn’t necessary to flee or fight back. In both instances, a minority did flee. In both instances, as time wore on, there have been statistically significant segments of the population who has become dissatisfied with something or another and have given voice to their discontent. There is dissent, complaints, criticisms, and protests in both places amongst the populations of both. There is one difference, and that being the freedom to protest is greater in Hong Kong, which is something the Hong Kongers cherish and the mainlanders admire. Your double-standard here is in arguing that mainlanders not only deserve what they have now but are also inherently responsible for it, but Hong Kongers don’t deserve and aren’t inherently responsible for what they have now. You employ arbitrary double-standards to heap blame and abuse upon one while excusing the other for what is fundamentally the same behavior and phenomenon. You think the average mainlander could’ve done something about the Communist Revolution but think the average Hong Konger couldn’t have done something about British colonialism or the 1997 Handover. What a joke.

            Again, the main thesis for my disagreement with you (and Andao) is that I recognize the victim of circumstance phenomenon. I believe people migrating to more desirable places is not remotely unique to mainland Chinese and it is hypocritical for Hong Kongers to be critical of a practice they themselves were likely born from and continue to employ to this day. I believe it is preposterous to say the descendants of those who helped the Communist Revolution whether by participation or inaction somehow “self-inflicted” their current normative behaviors upon themselves and are thus undeserving of other people having enough good sense to look at their lives and behaviors in context of sociological history. You guys are rejecting a request for rationality and perspective and instead defending double-standards and hypocrisy.

            Mainlanders going to Hong Kong to have babies is no different from Hong Kongers themselves going abroad to have babies. Anchor babies and immigration is common in both populations. For both populations, the reasons have always involved the desire to provide a better life and opportunities for their families.

            Your dishonesty is manifest in your misrepresentation of the arguments. Andao accused mainland Chinese of running for the exits when there is a problem, criticizing them for not trying to improve where they are. I replied by pointing out how Hong Kongers have also ran for the exits when there is a problem and that migrating for resources and opportunity is common to all people. Andao begrudgingly acknowledged this.

            Your hypocrisy and guilt lies in the double-standards you apply, not in the juxtaposition or moral equivalency of whether or not to fight back during the Cultural Revolution or the 1997 Handover. I never argued that they are morally equivalent. You’ve conflated the two to spin a strawman argument. I have never judged the choice to flee or stay in either of those two historic events. I have, instead, acknowledged that there are reasons for why certain people fled and others stayed. Those who fled, could. Those who couldn’t, had to stay, and it is ridiculous to think those who stayed uniformly supported something as opposed to having no choice and resigned themselves to surviving as best they could. In every major sociological movement, it has ALWAYS been a minority that has fueled a movement (and opposed a movement) while the majority remains passive, convinced that life will go on. This was true during the Cultural Revolution as it was true during British Imperialism as it was true during the 1997 Handover. You seem to think otherwise, which is baffling to me.

            The fundamental hypocrisy of the typical Chinese mainlander, who is an emotional coward incapable of publicly admitting that his government, his country, and his society are a total and utter fuck-up, is in his readiness to write a few snippets of apparent self-criticism to cover up his deep and unbreakable devotion to that same fucked up government, country, and society. Here are a few snippets of self-criticism:

            I’m not a mainlander and it isn’t MY central government, you nimrod. Way to make blind assumptions based on bigotry.

            The rest of your comment is utterly irrelevant. You’ve already convinced yourself that mainlanders are uniform and that all mainlanders are nationalistic morons. The irony is that the very same criticisms and contempt are applicable to every Hong Konger who hasn’t fled Hong Kong since the handover by your logic.

          • I don’t know why I’m bothering to even type this, you just cannot accept that you might be wrong.

            1. Unless you can argue a point succinctly and directly, please avoid walls of rhetoric that are usually a waste of time loaded with red herrings and enough nitpicking to satisfy a troup of chimpanzees (zing!)

            2. You mention the vast majority of mainlanders supporting the government then in the next paragraph say how the average mainlander is not responsible for thier circumstances. Is this a double standard or hypocrisy? I’ll let you decide. Unless you’re going to tell me that average and vast majority have totally disparate meanings (more rhetoric?).

            3. You keep missing the point about the huge difference between the mainlanders set of choices and the Hong Kongers set of choices. You refuse to judge them based on their own seperate merits and arbitrarily decided that they’re the same. Mainlanders had a choice what government they accepted, Hong Kongers did/do not. Your false dichotomy of eith accepting mainland influence or getting themselves killed at least shows that you partially understand that.

            4. You point out that mainland protests do happen, but I would argue that 0.0001% of the population directly protesting government policy is incomparable to having actual political parties in government actively protesting against maniland interference. Or the large percentage of peopls who march amd gather in a number of these issues.

            5. You’re clearly being disingenuous when you compare the Cultural destruction and the 97′ mistake. In the former you had volunteers coming from the local population to active encourage others and seek out more to terrorize, it was a nation wide plague that infected the majority. They ARE responsible. In the latter you had two foreign powers handing territory over like a baseball card with ZERO input from the local population. The majority protested and resisted when and where they could but to no avail. If you don’t see the differences there, you may need to see an optemetrist for your myopia. (Zing! Again!)

            As I mention before even if there’s a small minority who are not responsible for the current china, the vast majority (in your own words) are. That includes the peasant mindset and behaviours, much like the idea of simpleness was glorified during the Bush years in the US or the gilded lily style during the baroque period before the French Revolution or the hedonistis debauchery of the Romans. History is caused and continued by people, no exceptions (unless you want to make a super-special exception for poor widdle china of course). People today have the ability to see how others think and behave from the comfort of their own sofa. A lack of manners is a personal choice. A lack of good governance is a social choice. Don’t believe me? Check to see how many unwanted goverments lasted forever.

          • anon

            Elijah, you’re typing because you believe I’m wrong and want to convince me of it. I’m responding because you haven’t accomplished that yet.

            I’ve concluded that you’re either not following the conversation or misrepresenting the issues in contention. I’m going to try get this discussion back under control:

            1. I believe all people are to certain extents BOTH responsible for their current situation as well as victims of circumstance.

            2. I believe Andao, Alt-Z, and yourself have to varying degrees failed or refuse to acknowledge the extent to which certain people are victims of circumstance.

            3. I believe the same fundamental options are available to all people in the face of change. For example, they can support, be indifferent, resign themselves to, oppose, or flee.

            4. I believe both the Communist Revolution and the 1997 Handover are changes. In both situation, the majority of people felt what was happening was bigger than they are and not something they individually could alter or change or have the resources to alter or change. The minority of people felt otherwise, some believing they could influence it and some believing they better get the fuck out. Most, especially those who had no resources to resist or flee, could do little other than to continue with life and weather the changes as best they can.

            5. I believe everything I described above is self-evident. These dynamics have been true for every momentous change in history faced by societies and individuals. Most people just want to get by. They are victims of their circumstances.

            6. I believe mainland Chinese who are upset with their current society must acknowledge that they are to an extent responsible for it. I believe Hong Kongers who are upset with their current society must also acknowledge that they are to an extent responsible for it. Again, both people can choose to fight, flee, or weather.

            7. I believe the majority in both and everywhere are weathering. The mainland Chinese criticize the injustices in their system but aren’t willing to overthrow it, preferring to hope for gradual change. The Hong Kongers criticize the impact of mainlanders on their city but aren’t willing to revolt against the mainland, preferring to hope for gradual change (through protests and administrative remedies within the system). Both of these majorities feel and express helplessness. They are therefore also both victims of circumstances. Yet, fundamentally, they still have a choice. They can fight or check out, one way or another. They are both responsible yet also victims, both inherently convinced that life can go on where they are.

            8. I believe just as the minority of Chinese fought (KMT, reactionaries) or fled (to HK or TW) during the Communist Revolution or are fighting now (CGC, LXB) or fleeing (immigrating abroad), so have a minority of Hong Kongers who have fought (against British colonialism or the 1997 Handover) or fled (immigrating abroad).

            9. I believe that just because you don’t see the majority going to extremes and instead choosing to weather, it doesn’t mean they have no desire to change or no desire for improvement. Every individual weighs the costs and benefits or the risks and rewards of their options. It just so happens that the majority of people value survival over revolution and martyrdom. I believe most people are like Ge You in Zhang Yimou’s To Live. I believe the majority of Chinese people during the Communist Revolution were like the majority of American colonialists or even the French citizens during their revolutions, or Hong Kongers during the 1997 Handover. What was happening affects them, but they see themselves as largely powerless to do much more than watch out for their own interests and survive.

            10. I believe it is a double-standard when Alt-Z and yourself argue Hong Kongers are victims of circumstance but mainlanders are not given the above.

            11. I believe it is unfair NOT when Hong Kongers are critical of uncouth behaviors but WHEN they cross the line in their criticisms by refusing to acknowledge or give consideration for how such uncouth behaviors are a product of historical circumstances just as their own uncouth or civilized behaviors have been shaped and continue to be shaped by historical circumstance and environment.

            12. I believe it is further exasperating when Hong Kongers then suggest, argue, or defend the notion that mainlanders “willingly brought it upon themselves”. The vast majority of people do not willingly bring misfortune, poverty, and uncouth behaviors upon themselves. It cannot be and was never denied that such things are the result and by-products of certain decisions made by certain people, but to argue for a generalized yet personal blame on mainlanders when the vast majority of them and their ancestors were just weathering, just trying to get by, is disgustingly unfair and unreasonable.

            13. I believe that Hong Kongers who engage in this sort of prejudice and contempt are being unjustifiably arrogant and self-righteous when the vast majority of their own exhibit the same behaviors of weathering, of self-preservation, of trying to get by, of fleeing change. It is understandable but indefensible for Hong Kongers to think themselves inherently superior when there is absolutely no evidence that a Hong Konger wouldn’t behave similarly if born in the mainland. Hong Kongers can think themselves lucky and fortunate for whatever greater sophistication and earlier modernization or social advancement they’ve enjoyed as a result of historical circumstances. But thinking themselves inherently superior? No. That’s the underpinning of irrational racism, ethnocentrism, colonialism, white man’s burden, etc. We laugh at Shanghainese or Beijingers when they look down on waidiren. Why do some of these same people not laugh when Hong Kongers look down upon mainland Chinese?

            14. I believe Alt-Z’s presumption that I am a mainlander and repeated suggestions that I somehow embody mainlander mentality only serves to demonstrate his ignorance, prejudice, and willingness to indulge himself in both.

            If you have an objection or disagreement with any of these points in my position and disagreement with Alt-Z (and you), please feel free to voice them.

          • dim mak

            I like how morally indignant foreigners are arguing about this more than actual HKers/mainlanders

            Gents, you are all caught in the delusion that just because “all people can be X trait” and “it’s not their fault it’s their circumstances” means you can’t flame the shit out of them.

            Nothing could be further from the truth. Especially not amongst Asians. You could bash HK for all our problems as much as you want (even the ones that aren’t really our fault). I see a lot of people already do and I agree with them.

            Failure for any reason is still failure, and deserves whatever prejudice it gets. The hypocrisy angle doesn’t cut it either. When HKers were poor faggots acting like savages living in some podunk fishing village you would be perfectly justified to call them a townful of uncivilized peasants. If I travelled back in time, I’d probably come back and tell you my ancestors were just that.

            >hurr equality and tolerance
            Most Chinese people don’t give a fuck unless it touches on our personal interests.

            Equal prejudice > equal tolerance. Just because it’s not nice to say doesn’t mean it’s not true. Just look at the thin layer of denialist PC faggotry Western societies place over their population, left to simmer until their country hits hard times and real conflicts surface. That’s just the product of inferior societies who place their moralist beliefs over reality. It’s not the Asian way, and it certainly isn’t the Chinese way. Ever notice how Hongjian takes a hard nationalist position, but never tries to cover up Chinese shortcomings with crybaby bullshit like “there’s bad people everywhere!!1”? Extreme as he may be, that healthy attitude is not uncommon amongst a lot of Chinese.

            So yes, compared to the average human, HKers are venal, classist, unsympathetic, elitist etc and mainlanders are rude, shameless, self-serving, etc.

            It’s the truth, Y U ALL SO MAD?

            >Elijah/Alt Z
            Whiteboy doesn’t know what the fuck. Stupid theories about how each groups idiosyncrasies came to be.
            >anon
            Too much western thinking comrade. Seek and commune with some overseas Chinese (no ABCs), discuss foreigners, observe prejudice, and be enlightened once more.

          • Alt-Z

            dim mak,

            Are you suggesting I am a “whiteboy”? What gives you that impression? Is it because you believe that a racially Chinese person cannot possibly hold the sharp opinions I have about mainlanders?

            From my reading of the few postings you made in this thread, my guess is that you are a 50center. Most of your writing made no sense, but are artificially colloquial, no doubt in an attempt to give an air of authenticity. And the fact that you claim HK descent is most likely just another ruse to lend more credence to yourself, the same way “anon” is claiming to be not a mainlander. How pathetic is it that in order to defend one’s country effectively, one must assume the public identity of a foreigner? Perhaps you should consider whether such a country is worth defending.

          • Alt-Z

            “I’m not a mainlander and it isn’t MY central government, you nimrod.”

            Really? Thanks for enlightening us. However, that “fundamental hypocrisy” and “emotional cowardice” that I mentioned are unique and telltale signs of mainlanders that I have never observed in any other group. Perhaps you, uh, used to be one?

            I’ll leave it to readers to sort out the substance of your arguments. All I want to do here is to examine this claim of yours.

            “They have more faith in stable gradual change than revolution”

            This quote appeared in this thread out of nowhere, when nobody has ever mentioned the concept of revolution. Its unsolicited appearance can only have come from a mind obsessed with, er, “stability”. Tell us, why did you bring it up, when nobody else did? For the record, I do not advocate revolution or any major societal change in China. My primary mission is to help the mainlanders learn the virtues of STFU.

            “I believe just as the minority of Chinese fought (KMT, reactionaries) or fled (to HK or TW) during the Communist Revolution”

            Anyone see a particularly curious word being used? A “reactionary”, or 反動派, is what one calls his enemy. It is a rare word that a normal person would not have used here, even if trying to convey the same thought. Yet I know for a fact it is used in Communist textbooks. Thus, your usage here indicates that 1. you went through the mainland education system and that 2. you view the Communists as the protagonists during their revolution. Tell us then, how do you reconcile that viewpoint with this:

            “many mainland Chinese ancestors couldn’t afford it and had to stay put and weather the best they could.”

            To “weather the best one could” is to endure hardship. Thus, the Communists brought hardship. Why then do you still take their side in your description of their revolution? The usage of that one word proves to me beyond any doubt what your background is.

            A few parting thoughts in Chinese, lest I be mistaken as a “whiteboy”:

            不要以為別人沒有分析你的能力。他們是沒有興趣。當年被洋人操的落花流水,其根本原因就是不自量力。你們今天的這套,掙點錢也就罷了,消消氣也就罷了。可是真要和別人來硬的,還是請每個中國人牢牢地記住:你們的敵人,是永遠不會作假的。

          • anon

            dim mak, I understand your perspective (ie. everyone is a hypocrite and necessarily so) just as I understand Hongjian’s and its generally internally consistent too. I just don’t agree with it. You resign yourself to it as a fact of life just as I choose to oppose it. Opposing it doesn’t mean I don’t recognize it as a fact of life. It just means I feel it is worth my effort to oppose it.

            I’m well aware of prejudice existing amongst overseas Chinese. I think I’ve always made it clear that I see prejudice amongst all people. That doesn’t change the validity of my statements and the only way I would be enlightened is if I wasn’t expecting it. But I do, and I make the same criticisms.

            You can say I have Western thinking and that’s fine. I’m not ashamed of it though I don’t think its inherently Western as it is an ideology born from and developed due to circumstance.

          • anon

            Alt-Z, that statement did not appear out of nowhere. It was to elaborate on what “being convinced” means.

            Why is “reactionary” a curious word to use when it is a common label used to describe the politics, especially from the perspective of “revolutionaries” of the period? Haha, you think I’m a mainlander because I used that term? You’ve got to be joking, go read some Western history books on the time period. Just because I know what labels were used doesn’t mean I think they were reactionaries.

            You’re not just a bigot, you’re a retard too.

          • Alt-Z

            If you are familiar with the use of that word then surely you would know that the KMT called the Communists “reactionaries” too?

            Search the phrase “国民党反动派” (and I use peasant-invented characters to facilitate your search only), and read the resulting articles. It is a politically-loaded Communist mantra that cannot enter into this kind of discussion without revealing the political and educational background of the writer. You apparently just took up the dictionary and mapped “国民党” to “KMT” and “反动派” to “reactionaries” without realizing either the historical significance of the term or the impact of using those two terms in sequence.

            “Faking it” is never an effective human development strategy, especially when the effort is wasted on outsiders who don’t particularly give a shit about you. The next time a revolution breaks out in China, which is a possibility you seem obsessed with, I guarantee you it will not be due to people like me. Those 10-kuai whores and their kin are the most likely candidates. Why don’t you go address that problem instead?

  • bloomenthal

    As I see it, one of the major beneficiaries is the group of doctors practicing in HK. They will have much more business and be more highly-demanded!

  • dim mak

    Maybe it wouldn’t be so tense if you guys would stop plugging that shitty semi-conspiratorial site, just a thought

    The rest is just plain old human prejudice, fueled by good old Asian xenophobia. Turn the tables on the mainlanders, give some city a distinguished identity and they’d do the same thing to outsiders. Keep the hukou in place, and we’re good.

    • Notorious

      to my american eyes an Hker and a mainlander is basically the same, with the exception that one has a different set of rules from the other and one thinks that because of said rules, he or she is better. I don’t know, most of the comments just seem blatantly racist against mainlanders. There are ways of helping people adapt without treating them like trash or putting out the “unwelcome” signs.

    • Alan

      That’s just the product of inferior societies who place their moralist beliefs over reality. It’s not the Asian way, and it certainly isn’t the Chinese way

      You wrote this above, just curious what is the ASIAN way, and what is the CHINESE way.

      You sound a lot like Mahathir from Malaysia, or that tyrant who used to rule, or still does rule Singapore.

      If you had your way, you would have public executions and stonings in HK, wouldn’t you?

  • Two Sided Arguments

    I honestly dont see much difference between the HKer or the Mainlander. The good ones and the bad ones exist in equal proportion. I remember first arriving in Hong Kong and I tried to ask for directions, the people treated me like a leper, I couldnt even get 3 words out before I got that horrified look in their eyes as if I was trying to borrow money. But that was also an isolated incident, I was at a wealthy business district during the middle of the day and people were probably just really busy.

    I also lived in China for a few years and I never had problems getting directions from strangers, if anything, Mainlanders seemed more friendly!

    From my personal, limited experience, Chinese people are all capable of being model citizens and human beings, provided you have a system of laws in place that is fair and STRICT.

    What really dispises me about articles such as these is that the writers always try to make a point that HKers are BETTER HUMAN BEINGs, which is clearly not the case, you’re all a bunch of yellow monkies, it’s just that the Brits were better monkey trainers with years of experience, and Mao Ze Dong had no idea what the hell he was doing (because he too was a monkey). Watching the luckier monkey denounce his less civilized brethren is both silly and sad.

    If HKers want to prove that they indeed inherited all the good qualities of their trainers, then they should NOT try to expel Mainlanders from their tiny little city, instead try to spread the western ideals that they supposedly hold in such high regard.

    If all they can think about is their own social benefits or traffic congestions then I really dont see how that is any better than those who spit and shit on the street, in fact it’s probably worse! At least the Mainlander can plead ignorance, while HKers just come off as bigots!

    So, in conclusion, Chinese people from both the Mainland AND Hong Kong are equally as bad (or good), Chinese people LOVE the LAW, why else would they love Hong Kong and Singapore so much? And if you beat the chinaman hard enough when he does something wrong, they will learn, like the monkies that they are.

    • pervertt

      Consistency is important aspect of logical and persuasive writing. If you are going to convince us that HKers are to be despised because they act as if they are BETTER HUMAN BEINGS, then you shouldn’t display the same bigotry you so loudly condemn. By doing this, you are portraying yourself as a far better human being than the Chinamen you despise. This will make you look like a monkey, and a badly trained one at that.

    • Alan

      I also lived in China for a few years and I never had problems getting directions from strangers, if anything, Mainlanders seemed more friendly!

      I would agree there.

      And most students can speak english pretty well, even some taxi drivers know a little.

      I have met plenty of taxi drivers in HK who knew neither english or mandarin resulting in a frustrating game of gesturing, look at the map and pointing to get where I wanted to go.

      Good and bad everywhere.

    • Notorious

      I was nodding my head in agreement until you started calling people monkeys and espousing some old white supremacist crap.

    • Alan

      ROFLMAO, I love that post.

      Reminds me of british colonial officers in darkest africa for some reason, lol.

      Now look you black man, who chopped sandy?rofl….

    • slim shady

      fuck your western ideals, we do whatever the fuck we want bitch,, i will upper cut your fat pussy lips

  • typingfromwork

    For such a percieved international city Hong Kong does suffer from such an inexplicable amount of localism. The myopic and quite frankly bitchy comments are a wonder to behold for people who are apparently cosmopolitan and “worldly”. Honestly these headlines wouldn’t look out of place in a HK version of the Daily Mail, constantly refering to mainlanders using racist languages in the most broad and disturbingly casual manner.

    We get it. You feel superior for having had the luck to be born in HK, and those damn hick mainlanders better know about it. But really, HK’s future is inexorably linked with that of the mainland- which was the case even before the handover. I personally find the whole giving birth in HK for residency situation distasteful, as it is basically taking advantage of immigration law loopholes and one step above illegal immigration. The complaints about tourists however seem a bit of a stretch- people are pump tourist dollars into your place and you’re complaining? Of course property prices are going to go up and large malls are going to benefit- those are tourist magnets pretty much all over the world! Did you really expect tourists to speak your dialect? There are some Spanish and Greek people right now reading you complaining about too many tourists and wondering what in the name of fuck has gotten into your brains, considering how their tourist industry is imploding right now. And if you think they have a better class of tourists you will be sorely disappointed, as most of their clients are loutish brutes from Britain or Germany out on the piss and pull, and the local economy simply adapts by building more clubs and bars to accomendate them.

    What is really disturbing is how some HKers feel it is absolutely in their right to look down on mainlanders as “uncivilised”, without noting any of the irony of how such naked xenophobia being one of the most uncivilsed behaviours a person can engage in. Two wrongs only make the situation worse. If you really want to improve the situation, stop slinging mud around, stop treating your little island like some kind of special haven shat out by god himself, and do something constructive. Go out on educational drives instead of singing “locust world” to a bunch of tourists. Be a beacon of civilised behaviour and others will follow. Be a bunch of inward-looking xenophobes and no one will care about what you say, and they certainly will not do what you ask of them.

    • dim mak

      >Western standards

      All Asian countries regardless of “development” or “civility” are xenophobic/racist/chauvinist/ethnocentric etc and generally don’t give a fuck what people think about it unless we’re on the receiving end. Usually it’s outsiders that deem HK cosmopolitan, but compared to most Chinese cities, it still is. And I assure you nobody’s complaining about the money.

      • typingfromwork

        I consider “no being an asshole” to be a universal value, not specifically Western. But sure, this is a problem of pretty much every Asian country, even advanced places like Korea and Japan. If you counter assholish behaviour with even more assholery all you end up with is a putrid pool of crap. If HKers really want to be a cut above the rest (and there’s every reason that can happen, what with the general wealth and education level of HKers) then they’d be good to start acting like it.

        Complaining about the people who bring the money while coveting what they bring is pretty damn hypocritical.

        • dim mak

          Shrug, I don’t think anyone in Asia believes the whole western moralist shit to be a “cut above the rest”, but rather just downright stupid. Everyone likes money, nobody likes assholes. If that’s hypocritical… who cares?

          Another Chinese would probably see “bigotry” and “prejudice” as just plain old insults instead of an opportunity to cry about political correctness. They then respond with insults of their own, like a lot of mainlanders do. Which I welcome as long as it’s a good flamewar based on some degree of truth.

          • typingfromwork

            True, mudslinging is something that usually devolves from a situation like this (especially in Asia). I just don’t see why anyone bothers with it, it’s just a fucking waste of time for everyone and can be nipped in the bud so easily at the start.

            But maybe we just got too much time to waste in these modern times.

    • GloW

      I don’t think you understand what it feels like when you can’t book a hospital bed for birth simply because your small, limited resource city is being taken advantage by people that should be using health resources of their own country. Or that you may never be able to buy a home in your own hometown, the place where you and your parents were raised and plan on living the rest of your life, because a flood of foreigners are making purchases and driving up real estate prices.

      If you don’t want to be looked down on, simply respect other peoples culture, act civilized, and recognize that cash does not equate class.

  • Li Peng

    Mainland tourists are an offensive plague wherever they go. The government should make people take a course in courtesy before they can purchase a ticket. As for Hong Kong, did it get rid of those dirty Indians yet? China should capture British ships and put those Indians on board that the British left behind. The things I do not like about Hong Kong are rats and Indians.

    • TheAvenger

      Li Peng, was your mom gang-banged by a group of dirty Indian dudes? if that’s how she got you, then it will explain half the hatred you harbor towards Indians.
      Pussy.
      Now go cry to your mommy.

    • Alan

      The things I do not like about Hong Kong are rats and Indians.

      Utter rot.

      • Rick in China

        Li Peng is a fucking idiot and knows nothing of Indian history in HK, ignore him.

        Here’s some information. Indians were many of the British soldiers stationed in HK when UK took it over in the 1800s. There are 3rd/4th generation Indians living in HK now – they’ve been there for ages, not just moving there for shitty jobs. There were greater influxes of immigration using UK commonwealth status a few decades ago when the brits wanted more menial labour force and UK brits didn’t have much interest working in low level gov’t or private sector jobs, and Indians filled the gaps well. When they handed HK back to China, lots of the Indians with gov’t jobs were out of a job and had to look for other work. There’s obviously a lot of hawkers selling fake watches and cheap suits -that’s visible to one-time-tourists like “Li Peng” presumably is, but Indians have probably the longest history of another culture in HK outside of English and Chinese. My friends in HK don’t consider Indians as “dirty Indians”, but rather avoid the type who tout on the street-side as lower class of people — not because of their race, but their aggressive attitudes in public, and the only reference I’ve ever heard to “dirty [race]” is from mainlanders referring to anyone with dark skin. I bet you’re dirtier than the average HK Indian, Li Peng, stinking of BO from your last-night-shower at 4pm the next day riding on a crowded subway with people who have gum-rot stank mouth breathing all over your unwashed hair and covering your hand-washed-with-only-water shit stained underwear smell with hotpot and lajiao.

  • Li Peng

    Pitiful women, working hard, getting abused, going nowhere. Michelle Obama should do this work for a couple of years so that she will lose her arrogance and entitlement mentality.

  • Li Peng

    I meant to put that in the sex worker thread.

  • coala banana

    let me be a liberal for a minute !

    1. you can’t blame anyone who is looking for a better life with more opportunities !

    now lets be realistic:

    1. you still can’t blame anyone who is looking for a better life with more opportunities !

    2. HKers are amongst the most hypocritical bastards i have ever seen

    3. mainlanders ? well, just need “some” more time to evolve, give it another 50-100 years and most of them will get it…

    4. i am selling all i have in china and HK and will get out of here….

  • Cleo

    Even now, Hongkongers develop a lump in their throats when they cross paths with something deeply beautiful and authentic in China – be it in a city or a backwater. Eventually, Hongkong will no longer be needed to be hyper developed with inflated real estate prices to protect China’s belly from a Japanese dominated piece of strategic real estate. Hongkong has no authentic ancient history that most Chinese capitals are justly proud of and their children cannot be raised with the same energy and confidence of the Mainlanders. Right now, the Mainland is still not as convenient and developed as Hongkong but it just takes money to bring China to full flower and then where would you rather be? Hongkong hasn’t enough locally produced food and no fresh water. Think about it. It is just that conditions are so uncomfortable and unfair for Mainlanders that Hongkong finds itself temporarily designated as extra special. Be kind and honest and respectful of Mainlanders. They’re going to win the race in the long term. Traditional characters will return, Han culture and confucianism improved will be the standard. We are not going to let anyone take advantage of us, steal our ideas and take credit and PROFIT from our endeavors ever again. If you make the mistake of breeding with an enemy i.e. the German Huns and the Japanese with their baby rapist bloodlines, don’t expect to be on the right guest lists or to be cured of cancer.

    • Rick in China

      You’re SO DELUDED.

      “the same energy and confidence of the Mainlanders” – Bloated egos from the few who have new rich parents doesn’t equate to energy and confidence. Most Chinese, at least in Chengdu, are snoring at 2pm at their work desks – energy..pfft.

      “locally produced food and no fresh water” – Yeah, China is famous for super healthy food and ultra-fresh water. Go take a swim in yer local river.

      “They’re going to win the race in the long term.” – I didn’t realize it’s a fuckin race between HK and China. If it is, you’ve already lost – destroying natural resources, putting the majority of the population into unescapable poverty left to work as migrants and peasants, and basically selling out any sense of historical culture or social norm to make a few kuai. My GF says I’m a fool for being honest in business dealings < THAT is a common mentality here, cheat everyone else for your own personal benefit. Get over yourself soapbox pirate.

      "steal our ideas" – Yes, Chinese are famous for great new modern invention and ideas, but NOT famous for STEALING IP/ideas, You're right on the money with that one! Haha.

      "cured of cancer" – more like sold on the idea of curing cancer with a piece of rotten grass. That's about how close China is to curing cancer.

      • And that is what you cqll “Epic Reversal Burn”.

        Rick now owns Cleo.

      • Alan

        Most Chinese, at least in Chengdu, are snoring at 2pm at their work desks – energy..pfft.

        Agreed. Most I see have had lunch by 11.30 and are snoozing away until 2.

        Supermarkets? Bunch of cackling old women standing around talking, or the younger ones idling time on mobile phones.

        Work ethic my a-hole!

        Good post btw, RIC!

  • ddd

    though I agree that the influx of mainlanders into Hong Kong is of a social concern, I can’t help but feel that a lot of the opposition to mainlanders is just based on xenophobia.

  • Freak on a Mountain

    Jesus.

    Hongjian, you are a pistol. This time you are definitely going for the win. I can’t always agree with you, but your analysis of economic class is spot on. Cheers.

  • North East Lao Why

    Ha ha, very funny, can’t believe the chaos that will happen, mainlanders have no driving skills other than me first, me first, me first. HK’ers will spend hours and days wasted with these twats who can’t drive carefully. I live 8yrs in NE China, traveled all over, all mainlanders are selfish pigs when they get behind the wheel of a car. They never ever give way, even when it would mean they get out of a traffic jam quicker, fumb as duck, fumb as duck !!! What idiot agreed this would be a good idea. Get HK to swap over and drive on the right side to avoid the madness, death and chaos.

  • Jolyon Culbertson

    The mainlanders rush to give their offspring the right of abode by giving birth in HK is to be expected given the heavy restrictions in the mainland. Who wouldn’t want a better life for their children? And of course it may lead to the parents gaining freedom of choice to live and work where they live. But HK is Avery small place and needs to regulate the demand for its services. Not just hospitals but also police, schools and most importantly housing. The latter has been in permanent shortage for many decades. I do not agree with Martin Lee that administrative methods are the only way to solve this problem. Such methods can only be temporary and less than complete. We can change the basic law. Look at the USA where ther have been many amendments to the constitution. The new CE needs to explain this a must for the future good of HK, not an anti mainlanders policy. Would it not be possible to amend the law such that whoever you are, you need to have lived and worked legally in HK for seven years to qualify for a permanent ID card? Some amendment to immigration rules also needs to be made so that legal immigrants can demonstrate they will not likely be a drain during the seven years. This a normal requirement of most nations when granting a visa to live and work. Sincerely, JCC, holder of Permanent ID card by contributing to HK for 30 yrs!

  • Glow

    Anon,

    I absolutely did not forget that whichever country, city, town, household, etc. that we are in, there will be people that will behave or have habits that are not to our norms. However, when such behavior or habits are exhibited by the mass by guests/visitors, it becomes evident and unacceptable by others with more etiquette.

  • Kim Jung iLL

    The Americans hate the Japanese while fighting WW2. But deep in their heart, they have great admiration for their bravery, loyality, toughness etc. These are the good qualities the Japanese bring to their next generations. Chinese, on the other hand, although the biggest victim in the War was well known as corrupted, greedy, not united, cocky, weaklings and these are the very negative qualities that will continue for generations. Sadly, till today, the Chinese has refuse to acknowledge these weakness and continues to rebut. In addition, they have turn to wealth to cover up for their weakness, which do not work at all. The day when Chinese start to acknowledge and change is the day the world will look upon Chinese people.

    • slim shady

      your korean , you dont even have a right to speak , go get some plastic surgery , or go back to work at your convenience store or dry cleaners cock breath

      • GloW

        Just bc somebody is korean doesnt mean he/she won’t have a good opinion or input. Many commentators here are of different nationalities.

      • GloW

        Nonetheless, i found your comment funny Slim Shady

    • Notorious

      I disagree. Americans don’t typically iknow shit about china and don’t see them as the stereotypes you depict. in fact, these stereotypes and much of the stuff i read here was the first i ever heard of it a few months ago. Old white men call the japanese “japs” and really don’t like them at all, especially since they attacked pearl harbor while the soldiers slept, which at the time was to americans like the WTC 9/11 attacks are remembered today. 3000 killed, Americans dont forget crap like that. I think today, the average american likes japanese but if you talk to any old war vets, hell no. they’re still mad.
      Chinese people who live in the U.S. have a good image, as hard workers, good students who are quiet, never cause trouble and mind their own business.

      • slim shady

        no no no notorious, you got asian fever baby ,

  • Mao’s Dong

    It’s indeed a difficult thing, to go from colonial rule you prosper under to communist rule that infects you and bleeds you dry.

    R.I.P. Hong Kong: July 1, 1997.

  • George

    For China’s own good with a slowing economy let us hope that there will be no deals with the President of the U.S.A. after the American election to have the Dollar go to the Yen as has been said by some. The Present President of the U.S.A. should be responsible enough to pay off his debts and not waste money as he has done for three years. A better solution is to keep America free as Hong Kong was basically kept after returning to China from British rule. And also for more prosperity for both China and U.S.A. would be for more freedom of speech and religion in allowing the Chinese people to have the Holy Bible to be read and for laws against abortion in both. Sincerely ;

  • George

    Also what we good for the Chinese peoples as well as the other nations peoples of the world would be for individuals around the world to repent of their sins against God our creator such as murdur , stealing , lying , corruption , and having other gods before him and bearing false witness against our neighbor and taking his name in vain. Yet man in his own efforts cannot keep the law of God in its entirety of his own will and power since we are held under the control of sin which is also a bondage to all mankind. Only by repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ the one who was God yet became man by being conceived of the Holy Spirit , being born of a virgin , living a sinless life , and then dying and shedding his sinless blood as the full atonement for our sins against God can we have our sins forgiven. And he also was buried, and rose again the third day from the dead , was seen of men , and went back up to heaven. He is the only way to miss hell fire forever for our sins and have God’s gift of eternal life starting now and ending in God’s eternal heaven at death or when the Lord Jesus comes back for his own , the born again children of God who have trusted in him as their personal Saviour and Lord God Almighty. For more info , HolyBible dot com and fbnradio dot com. Sincerely ;

    • johnson

      Mainlanders are monkeys driving bmw’s

  • kodi

    I can totally see where the Hong Kong citizens are coming from. In regard to mothers going there to have babies, so their child can have Hong Kong citizenship, I also wish they would stop coming to the USA to do the same. Everyone deserves to have good health care, education, and things like that, but don’t argue about how great your country is and get all offended in a debate then run to another country in order to spawn.

    As far as driving cars into Hong Kong goes I am sure when the Hong Kong people talk about the mainlanders polluting they are not referring to the pollution coming from the car. Perhaps they may be referring to other means of polluting that I will not list here, for fear of being taken the wrong way. Furthermore, have you seen mainlanders drive? Very big differences between Hong Kong and mainland driving styles.

    One good thing is that allowing Hong Kong cars into the mainland is that we will be able to find cheaper cars in mainland China! Perhaps even be able to make some money because of it.

    • Thor

      One of my former colleagues has a brothers who lives in (mainland) China with a Chinese wife. She used to say “China is great in everything everytime” but thanks to her husband, rushed to his Laowai country to give birth to their child ASAP so she could get the benefit of having free medical care and everything. Not that I have anything against it but it illustrates rather well your point.

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