Taiwanese on Working Holiday Visas in Australia Criticized

This article is one of many responses being circulated around Taiwanese Facebook in response to a recent article and subsequent media discussion criticising what they label “Taiwanese labour” working in menial jobs in Australia on working holiday visas.

From Yahoo Taiwan:

Australian Fruit Picker, Hsinchu Academcy of Science Engineer Learns to Not Love Money

Former Hsinchu Academy of Science engineer Chen Zhengen gave up a million dollar [Taiwanese dollar] salary five years ago, flew to Australia on a working holiday, and in this foreign land met fellow countryman Xiao Jialing. The two fell in love, and are now hand in hand at their Changhua county Dacun township vineyard building their dreams. In regards to recent media reports labeling those going to Australia to work are “Taiwanese Labour”, they think “This is a very strange statement and way of thinking.”

31-year-old Chen Zhengen is now Dacun town’s youngest grape grower, and doesn’t miss his past title as an engineer with the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. He said, after arriving in Australia for a working holiday, he discovered that Australians generally don’t care about how much money people make, and instead put a lot of importance on family and enjoying life, granting him a happy and content perspective on life, “and that’s why I decided to return to Dacun to grow grapes,” and even though he only earned 200,000 TWD [6800 USD] in his first year, he doesn’t feel dismayed.

He and Xiao Jialing met while working at a farm in Australia’s Swan Hill, so it can be said “fate brought them together”, and at the same time met a lot of Koreans also working in Australia. Chen Zhengen said, “It was only after talking to them did I learn that they actively seek to go abroad to work, believing this to be a learning experience to be proud of, and will make finding a job back in Korea much easier.”

As for university graduates going to Australia for working holidays being called miserable “Taiwanese Labour”, Chen Zhengen and Xiao Jialing disagree, “Korea’s news media are very supportive, no one says [Koreans in Australia are] ‘Korean Labour’; So why does Taiwan’s media call us ‘Taiwanese Labour’?” They also don’t like everyone making going abroad on working holidays about “life’s first pot of gold” [a person's first substantial sum of money].

Xiao Jialing used to be like a migratory bird, following the fruit harvests, in an unfamiliar country’s going online or asking local friends, looking for the next farm to work at. She said “While working, I encountered backpackers from many countries, and during our conversations, everyone said they did it to train themselves, learn independence, and expand their horizons, and I never heard of anyone coming to earn their first pot of gold.”

The two said the government’s plan to promote traveling abroad encouraging young people to go on working holidays is a very good policy, “the outside world is really very different”, that Taiwanese people mustn’t be the “frog at the of bottom of the well” [someone with a limited outlook and experience], and should encourage university students to go abroad on working holidays after graduation, or even by taking a year off from school, so when they come back, they won’t be a member of the “depend on dad tribe”, the “life off their elders tribe” or “coddled my mommy tribe”.

“If the media repeatedly emphasizes ‘earning your first pot of gold’ and turns working holidays into about making money,that would be terrible.” Chen Zhengen said many foreign backpackers only bring a few hundred Australian dollars, going to Australia to make a living, no one plans on going home in golden robes [rich].”

Comments on Yahoo Taiwan:

阿傑:

Taiwan doesn’t have any fruit?

T.K.:

Then why not go to Ethiopia or Zimbabwe to train yourself, learn independence, and expand your horizons?

檯中小韋恩 A.K.A. AP劍人:

Five years ago perhaps it wasn’t for money, but now lots of people are heading to Australia in order to [earn and] save up an amount of money, with making money being their primary goal, and vacationing and studying abroad actually being secondary considerations.

大陽光:

Is loving money wrong? There’s simply no need to emphasize that you don’t love money, [because] going to Australia to work and make money isn’t wrong.

Eric:

Soon I’ll be going to Australia too, and I’ll affirm that I’m Taiwanese Labour, no mistake.

Ken:

Australians don’t care about or love money? It’s because they’re salaries are high, so they have a lot of time to be with their families, whereas in Taiwan not working hard to make money means not being able to survive. If one had the time, who wouldn’t like to stay home and enjoy family happiness?

★:

Those working in Taiwan are the real Taiwanese Labour! They are exploited workers. The working conditions abroad are better!

MMN :

This report is simply too romantic… There is no disgrace in facing reality.

大頭大帝:

These days, there are three types of people go backpacking in Australia:
1. Real Backpackers
2. Half Half
3. Real Taiwanese Labour = The majority of those going to Australia now are of this type, as the news reports!!!

像風一樣:

You have no debt, no mortgage, or no children to raise, so of course you can come here and sound so noble and virtuous. Wait until you have a home loan, car loan, and child education expenses. Then your thinking will change.

超:

Taiwan’s media really is the largest source of chaos!!

吃保育類動物是大罪孽:

The choice of Australia is because the hourly wages are high. Why don’t you ask Filipino people… Why don’t they go to Africa to work…?

What do you think? Are Taiwanese people exploiting working holiday visas specifically to make money? Is that wrong?

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  • linette

    sofa again….

    • Misiooo

      This time it’s me and you… How romantic…

      • Winter B4 Spring

        well i m coming in to muck around a bit, spoiling both your prvacies =P haha

  • moop

    who cares? they’re coming back to taiwan and they’ll spend the money there and investing in their local economies

    • El Puma R.

      it’s funny how much Chinese care about money and how dependent they are from jobs , parents, government, etc. Just like anyone else in any other country but Chinese are remarkably exaggerated with all this. Seems they don’t understand that this article (in my point of view) is about learning the true meaning of life and the pursuit of happiness isn’t about making and spending money.

      True men are those who learn things and do things by themselves and achieve true freedom without the need of blind dependence. It isn’t about being rich. It’s about being happy and self sufficient.

      It’s funny how I see around here.. useless cunts can’t even change a tire or make their dry-vagina girlfriends have an orgasm.

      • mr. wiener

        I see a future niche market for you. Male deportment, teaching Chinese guys how to dress [like a man], drink[ like a man], play rugby , cook and foreplay like a man! El Puma, the maker of men!!

        • El Puma R.

          That’s not a bad idea… I could slap one or two (million) in the face.

  • whatamess

    its no different than western travelers stopping in an asian country to teach english for a year as they travel the world. good for them. its a life experience that everyone should have if they can. experience another culture and make a few bucks as you do it.

    • tai wai

      Eh, it’s a bit different, I think. Technically, an English teacher is a “foreign expert.” That’s what it says on the Visa.

      They’re not picking grapes. Teaching is not menial labor, even if some see it / treat it as such.

      • whatamess

        well i have had some canadian friends go to australia to pick fruit as they back pack across the country for a year or so. its not the specific work that i am talking about but the experience to go abroad and open your mind a bit. thats what i think happend to the dude in the article, its not about the money for him, he enjoys the lifestyle.
        i know what your saying but its funny because how many english teachers are experts here in china? most just come here and learn as they go…

      • BigCAD

        ‘Experts’ in the yawn and reach or slip and cup. Oh hello, what’s my hand doing there.

      • Alejandro

        “menial labor”? everyone is doing it with their own goals. So at some extent it’s the same.

  • Snicker

    Who cares if they are going to make money or not? English teaching in China is basically a holiday work visa that pays for travel, offers an international flight, and a little bit of savings on top. If those Taiwanese end up drinking up all their money in beer, then they do that too — who cares?

    • Young Man

      ”English teaching in China is basically a holiday work visa that pays for travel”

      That’s not English teaching, that’s clowning around in front of a class. As far as I’m concerned if you don’t have real teaching qualifications (not some weekend course on a holiday inn- I mean a real teachers certificate, CELTA would be the absolute minimum) you aren’t a real teacher and you’re probably wasting your students time and money.
      Real teachers in China (like me!) earn good money. Between my two jobs in Beijing (school teacher and examiner) my take home pay averages 25000 with a high water mark last Spring Festival being 38000 (Big time for people taking the IELTS). I keep telling people on this site to ask for more money when they teach but everyone prefers to think I’m full of shit.

      ”It’s easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled”.

      • tai wai

        Between my two jobs in Beijing (school teacher and examiner) my take home pay averages 25000 with a high water mark last Spring Festival being 38000 (Big time for people taking the IELTS).

        That’s not bad scratch. Self-employed, uni, or business school?

        • Young Man

          The school is a private boarding school just north of Beijing. the examination work is NGO.
          I’m no Mr. Chips, I’m no great teacher- I just named a high figure from the beginning. Some schools blew their cheeks out and said their contract was non-negotiable. So I left.
          If more teachers did the same they’d have to pay higher salaries for everyone.
          This is China- nobody respects a guy who takes the forst offer, do they?

      • Kukuku

        Well Young Man, I have a 4 year ESL teaching degree. Mind giving me some tips to find jobs that will give me mucho yuans? Thanks.

        • Young Man

          See above.

          Nobody in your situation should be working for less than 15000 per month or 250 per hour. If the city your in pays piss poor move to beijing or Shanghai. negotiate hard- a lot of the bullshit schools give their foreign teachers is because, right from the outset, the foreigners give the impression that they came down with the last shower. If you ask for a good salary the worst they can say is no.

          Find out what the school charges their students before you go to the interview and cite that figure when you negotiate for pay. They’ll be making a lot more per class then they’re paying you.

          Remember- the school NEEDS foreign teachers to survive- you are a something they cannot exist without- make them pay for you.

          Make sure you have a good 15 minute lesson plan to show what you’re capable of. remember that they’ll say what you did was shit no matter what so try to drag a couple of Chinese friends along to the interview to pad out the class with people who will actually participate because they WILL sit staff primed to be unco-operative in front of you. Refuse to use their materials, especially if they give them to you on the day- tell them professional teachers prepare their classes properly.

          Be ready to ask awkward questions about their curriculum, their classes, their facilities- be judgemental and make sure they know you are. This is totally what Chinese buyers do, isn’t it? Are they good enough for you?

          Finally- Remember; yeah, you’re selling yourself but they are selling themselves too and they need what you’re selling a hell of a lot more than you need what they’re selling.

          Shame coke’s so difficult to come by here, eh?

          • tai wai

            Farkin’ saved.

            If I go into teaching, this will be quite useful. Thanks.

          • DoctorZaius

            Yeah, I hear this all the time on the internet, but I have yet to meet anyone who is actually making this kind of money consistently teaching.

            But now I am curious, so maybe you can answer a few questions. Do you have a teacher’s degree from your home country? What is the name of the private school you teach at in Beijing? What are the enrollment numbers? How many hours a week do you teach? What about prep time? How many hours?

            A lot of these schools only care about getting a white face in the classroon; doesn’t matter if you can teach or not. I guess if you are teaching IELTS on the side, you could probably make decent money. But how consistent can that be?

          • Young Man

            @DoctorZaeus:
            I’m sorry that you and yiour friends aren’t getting the salary you deserve- perhaps you might avail yourself of the advice I give above.

            As for telling you where I live and work- eeeehh; thanks but no thanks. as I said, there’s always some people who, when I make these claims, say I’m full of shit but ‘m not prepared to reveal my identity (which I would be if I gave you the information your asking for- there aren’t that many foreigners around here) just to prove a point to you.

            One other point: I don’t teach IELTS, I am an IELTS examiner. That’s where the money is and there are a shortage of IELTS examiners. Contact the British Council in Beijing Shanghai or Chongqing (search online- I’m not sure how this site would feel about me advertising jobs here) but be prepared to be asked for real qualifications and real teaching experience. When I started I got peanuts too- it’s a thing you have to work at to get the salaries that my friends and I have achieved but in time I’m sure you can do it too.

            In the meantime: please negotiate harder for your jobs in the future- you help yourself and, by not keeping salaries articificially depressed, you’re helping your fellow teachers in China as well.

          • Jennster

            i know a graduate in business/commerce usually make 150-200k yuan in beijng or shanghai. i am pretty sure english teaching (with qualifications) will be lower.

          • moop

            i had a friend who made 17k per month after taxes for teaching english. that’s 204k per year, jennster. new oriental is at least 15k per month.

          • Jennster

            how old is the person? i am talking about the average age of 23+.

          • ybin

            “…Remember- the school NEEDS foreign teachers to survive- you are a something they cannot exist without- make them pay for you…”

            Too bad I was not born a Caucasian – that’s not something even a PhD degree can make up for, in the eyes of such school’s administration. This is probably true in Asia in general.

            As the Australians say: TWO WONGS DON’T MAKE A WHITE!

        • Young Man

          Oh and one more thing-

          Never go to an interview unless they’ve given you a ballpark figure of how much they’re going to pay. If their figure is too low (eg: 150 per hour in Beijing) tell them straight out and refuse to go to an interview unless they can give you a figure closer to what you’re thinking of.

          Oh yeah- and keep a smile on your face whn you do all this- it’s just business and they’re not going to hire you if they think you’re a psycho.

          :)

          • Hoppy1

            Best, in a nutshell advice I’ve seen, for all teachers, pseudo teachers and monkeys out there. Should be required reading for all those already in or looking to join the industry. Let’s face it, all the help we can give the monkeys (and I do say that with no great disrespect…some of my good friends here are monkeys), as to how to get their paws on more peanuts, can only have a flow on effect resulting in more peanuts on offer at the higher parts of the tree.

      • BigJ

        That’s great for China, but any 1st world country that’s just normal pay…for one job. Don’t get me wrong…For China that is good. $4000 a month is not bad.

        • Young Man

          Stuff costs less here- we can save more from that money.

          • Kukuku

            Pretty much. ATM taking into account taxation and expenses at home, I save at least 10 times more per year here. I’ll be saving almost twice as much next year!

          • Jennster

            Here is a better idea: make your money overseas (lets say 350k rmb/yr) and spend it in china.

          • Young Man

            Jennser: I don’t have a background in business/commerce- my background is in education so that’s apples and pairs.

            I apologise in advance if i’ve got you wrong but you do sound as if you’re trying to be a little snarky.

            You have no respect for teachers? Fine mate- just take it someplace else.

          • Young Man

            Or apples and pears, even. Jesus! Looks like the comments section from the Daily Beast.

            Looking back over my other other comments I see I’ve a few misplaced apostrophes and various typos. Sorreee!

  • tai wai

    If they are willing to work under a “glass ceiling,” that is their choice.

    My
    (college educated) wife recently found out how the Macanese (and Hong Kong people in Macau) view mainland labor.

    She was sold on the idea of going there to be a Supervisor in a famous five star hotel’s restaurant. After she got there, she found out that Supervisor was a bullshit title, it was basically just a head waitress.

    So, OK, it’s a menial job, but she can work her way up, right?

    Nope. They do NOT hire mainlanders for any position above shift manager. No office jobs, no director jobs, nothing. Mainlanders are for grunt work, albeit slightly higher grunt work than Filipinos.

    So, menial job, AND no future.

    The HR person was baffled at why she then wanted to quit. “Didn’t you understand the situation before you came here? ” Basically asking her why she didn’t already know that they are discriminatory in their hiring and promotion process. It blew my mind.

    Did I mention she had to pay almost 20k RMB for this “opportunity?”

    • red scarf

      “Did I mention she had to pay almost 20k RMB for this “opportunity?””

      Its one of the biggest no nos in the industry, if your forking out the money to get a job its a sure sign that your going to get ripped off.

      • tai wai

        Nah, it’s pretty typical. I had the same reservations, but we checked into it. Pretty much the only way for mainlanders to get work in Macau is through a headhunting agency.

        And they always charge both sides.

        For us, it 10k for the headhunter, and 10k for the work permits, etc..

        • red scarf

          If that’s the true, then ouch…. I’m sorry for you man….

          I hope she got a better job in the end.

  • tai wai

    An aside for the admins: I’m receiving a 502 http status error on

    http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-comments-post.php

    Not sure if that’s on your end, or if it’s just my ChInternet acting up.

  • Suicidal tendency

    I’m not even sure I understand what’s up with “Taiwanese labour” griefs: going abroad to make money, or going abroad but not making enough?

    Can’t he do what the f*** he wants with his life??

    • mr. wiener

      A whole lot of dicks have been saying “I have a university education, I want better work than this”.
      If you don’t want to pick grapes or do menial work on a work visa in Australia…don’t f*cking go. This bloody story has been on the tube all week. It’s a non-story.

      • tai wai

        Perhaps they didn’t know beforehand that the work would be menial.

        • mr. wiener

          Everyone knows this.
          Homestays and fruit picking work holidays have been reported on for a long time as a cheap way for kids who have just finished college to get a paid holiday before they settle down into whatever field they choose in the ROC.
          These people are [not the ones in the story] are being whiney after some poor kid died in Australia working in a meat works [roofing collapse]. The media picked up on it because he was a bright lad with a swag of degrees , and started asking :”Why was he doing a menial job”?

          • tai wai

            Huh. I did not know that.

            Oh, oh! See? Not everyone knows that.

            Well, OK, maybe now everyone knows that.

          • jeffli

            when western back packers do it theres no comment, French Italian English back packers have been doing this for years, but when Mainland Chinese see their Taiwanese XiongDiJieMei doing this and having a nice time tehy get jealous!
            sunshine
            quiet
            relaxed atmosphere
            good healthcare
            clean water
            blue skies
            good food – no poisons like in Mainland China
            Learn about different cultures (Australia is a country which encourages ethnic identity you can mix with people from other ethnicities, learn greek or Italian or other languages in an unofficial manner.)
            go swimming during the Christmas break.

            Because many BUT NOT ALL Mainland Chinese have a reputation of overstaying Visas, Lying about their status, they are more controlled with tighter Visa requirements and it should be like that. Imagine 5% of mainland China in Australia! Disaster! too many people.

            If mainland Chinese take offence then fine I’m cool with that.
            I would never deny an honest Mainland Chinese to come visit New Zealand provided they don’t have ulterior intentions such as:
            #immediately applying for refugee status as persecuted FALUNGONG practitioners when its not true.
            #fake marriages
            #drug mules
            #money mules
            #spitting on the host country
            #cheating people of the hoist country

            Why menial jobs? because nothing was arranged before arriving in Australia, If your country conducts business in Australia let them employ you and sponsor you to come to Australia or New Zealand.

            Same as in China.

            Stop whining like a bunch of eunuchs and get on with life!

          • donscarletti

            I used to work in Australia.

            Now I work in China.

            Pay is roughly the same, position is higher and responsibilities are larger in China.

            But in Australia, I could work 9-5 Mon-Fri. In China I work 13 hours or more every day.

            Why do I work in China? Because I like being a Chief Technology Officer in a medium size tech company, even though I’m not really qualified for it. I guess I’m qualified for it now after a few years have passed, but certainly not when I started. China lacks qualified people to do these jobs and if it wasn’t me making a mess of it, there would be a bigger loser to take my place. I love what my team and I can accomplish in China, slogging our guts out every day and getting some cool results now and then. But I am tired, miserable and overcome with stress most of the time.

            In Australia I would be a medium size player in a team full of good, honest blokes who don’t promise anything they are not sure if they can deliver by 5:30 Friday. At this point in my life, I cannot stand that, I want to get in there, half kill myself and hurt others in order to get something done in less time than a sane man would believe is humanly possible.

            My dear girlfriend now has to work double the hours in Beijing to earn half of what she was earning in England, even though her job in Beijing now would be considered far more prestigious.

            But if you want to be paid $35K a year doing steady blue collar labour with fair and safe working conditions, there is nothing that compares to the land down under. Fruit picking pays fairly well because nobody wants to do it but it still needs to be done. Aussies don’t want to do it because unemployment is so low right now that they can get a job that pays the same, employs year round (rather than just picking season) and isn’t in the riverina. To Taiwanese/Korean tourists, maybe the location and seasonality might be a plus and it pays better than work at home.

          • cc

            donscarletti, you work harder have longer hours and have more responsibility because your Chinese colleagues are lazy and will not take responsibility for anything, they have a silly laowei to do that for them. That’s why you get paid more.

          • tai wai

            Why do I work in China? Because I like being a Chief Technology Officer in a medium size tech company, even though I’m not really qualified for it. I guess I’m qualified for it now after a few years have passed, but certainly not when I started.

            If you don’t mind me asking, how were you introduced to the job? Website? Headhunter? Guanxi?

            I’m looking for something similar.

            Much thanks in advance.

          • donscarletti

            Work contacts, I used to work for their key middleware provider. I guess if you can point at the framework that someone’s project is based on and say “I wrote that” it does open doors. Also, I worked with one of the key engineers when he was at Netease.

          • mr. wiener

            Sorry Tai wai.
            I meant it was already “widely known” in Taiwan.
            Happy? :)

          • tai wai

            Happy? :)

            Yes, thank you.

            You?

          • mr. wiener

            Ecstatic.

          • simon

            fruit picking actually pays very well, it’s also quite physical hence the need for good pay, i did it around 7 years ago and it was about $12 an hour back then.

            If you compare the pay to what people would be getting in taiwan doing menial jobs, it would actually make fruit pickers look like white collar workers compared to their compatriots.

            Given 7 years, i would hazard a guess that it’s about 16-17 an hour now at least and when you exchange it into taiwanese currency, that is a lot of bling bling.

        • Umm

          .. A working holiday. It’s for a year. Would anyone in their right mind think that they could get a job in a big company for a year when they have no work experience? What company would hire someone for a year? Unless of course it’s for “menial” work. Anyone who doesn’t realise is clearly too stupid to even pick grapes.
          “Menial” work in Australia pays a hell of a lot better than most career choices in Taiwan. The work hours are also much more pleasant.

      • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

        Sounds pretty silly to be pissed off that a foreign government won’t give you better work…

    • Alexander

      Actually Westerners don’t care about this….. In Western countries, especially America, France, Canada and Australia, it is sort of the pioneer-republican spirit in which millionaires and billionaires can enjoy doing dirty work. Even Presidents sometimes have a farm which they own and work on doing dirty work….. The idea was to get rid of classism(caste system) and the aristocratic nobility in favor of republicanism (not in the sense of the modern party but in the sense of Rousseau’s concepts). So no, we don’t care or look down on rich educated people doing menial labor(or anyone who does menial labor, plumbers in the West make more money than most people with 4 year degrees)….. I think more likely rich people in Asia are more aghast over the situation…..

      • Getrealson

        Exactly right! Are you Australian? well I am and most of the people in my circle are just like you describe. I don’t care if what I do is viewed as menial as long as I’m happy and my family is taken care of.

        I did a cotton season in narabri (in the jin, not picking) just to get out into the country for a while. And to further your point I gave up a $95,000 AUD a year office job to become a tree lopper. Out in the open spaces, blue sky and the comradery of a lumberjack crew. BBQ sausages, steak and lamb chops for lunch, while kangaroos watch us work….. I miss home. can’t wait to get back.

  • tai wai

    Is loving money wrong?

    6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

    • Dr Dust Cell

      what the sick fuck?

      • tai wai

        “Try to have some spiritual or moral core to fill that gaping hole in your soul, instead of trying to fill it with money.”

        • mr. wiener

          Take two atheists and see me in the morning.

          • tai wai

            Find me a quote by an atheist that is as easily recognizable as the farking bible that says “loving money is stupid and unfulfilling,” and I’ll use that next time.

            I won’t discriminate.

  • moop

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7955910.html

    this kinda sucks, ccp looking to tighten control over international NGOs

    • tai wai

      It depends if they’re doing it, as they say, to stem “illegal activities,” or if it is just to tighten control

      This being China, unfortunately, I’m guessing the later. Heck, not letting the Party have control IS illegal.

      • moop

        yeah, thats the status quo

    • Cooljackal

      Did you guys hear about the net monitoring devices that some businesses (foreign and chinese) were essentially forced to buy and install by the beijing police? I read two articles on it but couldn’t find any other information. Apparently a group that represents a bunch of foreign and multinationals sent out a notice saying that you should be aware of this. The monitoring is being done for “illegal activity”. Hopefully I didn’t misread it.

      Ah, here’s the cnn link:
      http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/24/business/china-foreign-companies-internet/index.html

      • tai wai

        Makes sense. Foreign companies typically use VPNs which circumvent the Chinternet’s great firewall.

        Which is illegal.

        “You must let us monitor your activity on our end, or on yours, either way is fine with us.” How nice of them to give the option.

        • tai wai

          Ah, there we go. From the article:

          The Shandong order notes that businesses “are often used to disseminate pornography and superstitious information, online fraud and gambling, or used by hackers to jeopardize national security and people’s interests.”

          That is to say, anything they don’t like.

          Hm. Is China to the point that they actively want to push out foreign companies?

          • Cooljackal

            That is possible. If they are, it might turn out to be a good thing. Aside from any issues people may have with China, having most of the worlds manufacturing done in one location is bad. The risk should be spread around otherwise one catastrophe and we’ll be screwed!

        • Cooljackal

          Haha, exactly what I was thinking. Well, I guess it might be time to add some facility shifting to the short-term business plans. At least the ones that require a little more data security.

    • snicker

      I personally envoy that the article goes on and on about the illegal activities of international NGO s, but then only goes on to list the corrupt activities of Chinese NGOs.

      Brilliant

    • Young Man

      It’s just about registering an NGO. The ones who are already here already abide by the rules. The British Council courier all of their documents via their own staff and sending emails with sensitive information (ie: anything except scheduling and pay advice) is a big no-no with the boss bollocking you for sending on an ”unsecure channel”.

  • brazil420sh

    just one small correction. 200,000 NTD is 6800 dollars.

  • eattot

    if i could i would go too.
    but a real rich man would not go to another country pick grapes..so, do not bullshit..
    let’s be real….if not show off or pretend full of pride, some people would die, especially someone likes to show off to mainlanders…..

    • cc

      I wish you would go and hopefully get bitten by a funnel web spider.

      • tai wai

        Considering that just about everything in Australia is poisonous or deadly, I think she’d fit right in.

        Ba-zing!

        • mr. wiener

          They only bite tourists.
          Watch out for the drop bears though.

          • Getrealson

            HAHAHAHA! My old man got me with that one when we went hunting. I was 8 before I knew! still works on backpackers.

      • Poltergeist

        Poisining animals have pride too. So unfortunately that wouldn’t solve the problem…

      • jeffli

        +++I wish you would go and hopefully get bitten by a funnel web spider.+++
        Oh CC!
        thats no way to talk to a cute ‘Lil “Chinese Snapdragon” Eattot.

        to be bitten by a funnel web spider she would have “endure” the torture of poor uncultured Sydney Australia, I heard Cairns is closer and they have cuddly cute blue ringed octpus and irikanji to play with. Maybe feed a crocodile? ;-)
        death adders make good cuddly pets for Chinese girls who are tizzy cause they haven’t dropped a kid yet.

        • cc

          She could pop down to the Goldcoast and play with the bikers, there quite tame, most of the time.

          • jeffli

            Bikers? why? they need someone to wash dishes? As far as I know bikers don’t have orchards.

            Forget their brothels too, the last decent Blow Job from China was 5000 years ago.

            so that leaves picking fruit in funnel web infested orchards or washing dishes for bikers…..biiiiiig hairy bikerrrrz!
            “get in the kitchen an cook me some iggs butch!” NZ accent

          • jeffli

            but naaaahhh an irukandji sting on the fanny, nice big red and blue swollen twat for two weeks.

          • jeffli

            or she needs a dominant boyfriend to put her in line,
            ala insex videos
            severe spanking nipple torture, more spanking, tit clamping. see how nice ladylike and docile most women became after 3-4 hours torture.
            no harm just lots of pain and climaxes

          • mr. wiener

            You spend far too much time on…those internet sites.

    • Jahar

      You JUST read a story about a rich engineer quitting his job to come here and help poor people.

      As an English teacher here i took a 67% pay cut to come to China. You are an idiot. Not everyone is driven by money.

      • tai wai

        She only cares about the ones that are driven by money.

        OK, actually, I’m fairly certain that she only cares about the money.

        Eeeeh. There are only, like, six females that post on this forum, and at least three of them are vapid and shallow. Disappointing, really.

      • eattot

        u pick grapes in china????
        u wash plates in china????
        it’s different,ok? if i could be an chinese teacher in another country people would not judge me either, right?
        and that kind man,he does not pick grapes either…..

        • jeffli

          Lazy!

        • tai wai

          I have no idea what you’re getting at, but this post did help me understand the disconnect.

          Many (most?) Chinese people do not leave their homes for any reason other than economic (or other practical) benefit. They go out for the money.

          This is probably why they just don’t understand jaded, angry, disillusioned laowai. We must be in China for the same reason! Man, we must be total losers back home! And racists!

          The truth is that many of us go out because we are idealistic. We are NOT practical. We are looking to experience other cultures, to BROADEN our views. We are multicultural people. Romantic people.

          国际化

          And what do we find in China? Inscrutable smiles. Palpable envy. Sheer, cold calculating pragmatism.

          • moop

            and 串儿, glorious glorious 串儿, copious amounts of mutton-flavored pork on a stick!

          • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

            Excellent point, tai wai. Handfull of grapes for ya.

          • Bo Xilai For Emperor

            Agree with half of your comments, but not all of us are idealistic, I’ve met some during my trips that just wanna get drunk on liquor and screw Chinese slores (not that it’s wrong) but no where near idealistic would you say? (a different type of idealistic – like catching some nasty stuff) we might be more civilized, but let’s not be way too many steps ahead ourselves here. Better way to say it is that we’re not devils but closer to becoming saints….(no religious point intended)

          • tai wai

            I’ve met some during my trips that just wanna get drunk on liquor and screw Chinese slores (not that it’s wrong) but no where near idealistic would you say?

            And those guys DO tend to complain loudly.

            Hmm. Hmmmm…

            I guess there’s three main types of laowai:

            Romantics, who come for cultural experience
            Neo-imperialists, who come for a privileged life
            “That guy” at the bar, who comes for young girls

            Some of us are all three. But I just don’t think it fair to automatically assume we’re all just “that guy.” Especially when it’s the romantics that tend to burn out the hardest.

            I would say that if you the type that wants to settle here, or have already, but are ground down day-to-day by a culture that you feel powerless to change, you should have your say to try change it, without being told “you are just a loser, loser.”

            Or, at least, a chance to vent spleen.

          • Bo Xilai For Emperor

            Yes like I said, I agree with you half-way, there are some cultural romantics who travel around the world to experience cultures and those who are truly idealistic like the republican volunteers of the international brigade during the Spanish Civil War days. Ernest Hemingway for one.

            You get my point, which is we’re not perfect, but we’re closer to that than most. And I think that we shouldn’t be afraid to be called a failure. We knew from our travel experience that sh!t happens.

            “it’s the romantics that tend to burn out the hardest.”

            But we have to remember those romantics tend to have too high of a requirement on things…Alexander the Great is a great conqueror but also quite the romantic on turning the known world into one whole community…and he burned fast, he put too much hope into the human civilization during his period and his hope got dashed and died without naming an heir.

            I guess sometimes we either have to lower our expectations on certain cultures or if we can’t bare with it…forget it and just leave, that’s what I did. Back to Vancouver I went.

          • Bo Xilai For Emperor

            And I was a romantic hoping to change some of my Chinese co-workers around me when I was staying in China, but most of them are way too proud of their country because of the economic growth, and pretty much just ignored all the other dire issues in the country. All they talked about was “money” and looking down on other people with “5,000 yrs of culture and look how great we’re” And I went through the same “withdrawal” phase from trying to get to know more locals to..maybe that’s enough locals I want to know and then ended up with hanging out with my fellow Canadians…And then I just went back to Canada

          • tai wai

            I guess sometimes we either have to lower our expectations on certain cultures or if we can’t bare with it… forget it and just leave

            It’s funny to me that we’d have to lower our expectations on a culture that keeps shouting about how superior it is to ours.

            And by funny, I mean sad.

        • Dr Dust Cell

          U WANT MIRRION DORRAR?

          TOO BAD! HERE GRAPE! FUCK U!

          • moop

            i chortled

          • tai wai

            +1 for Robot Chicken reference

        • red scarf

          You can always try Africa!!!!

          TWhats the difference between learning money in China as a English teacher or earning money in Africa as a Chinese construction worker!

          Both supply needs for a country.

          • moop

            my mom says there’s black people in africa

          • red scarf

            Your mum seems wise maybe you should listen to her…

        • Getrealson

          u pick grapes in china????
          u wash plates in china????
          it’s different,ok? if i could be an chinese teacher in another country people would not judge me either, right?
          and that kind man,he does not pick grapes either…..

          @eattot: washing dishes in Australia would earn you around $650.00AUD a week. which is about 4,300RMB a week or around 20,000RMB a month. Not sure how much pickers get but not far off. Pretty good considering the atmosphere you work in and quality of life. If your married, double it! not bad!

        • El Puma R.

          eattot, I don’t pick grapes in China, but I have 15 classes per week, each one 60 students who don’t give a single fuck abut anything except money and playing with their iphones. Even worse, their parents blame the teachers because their children are stupid cunts like them.The majority of chinese people is wasting this country , their lives and their health away just for the sake of profit.

          Eattot you and your fellow countrymen could really use Maozedong now, sending all of you to work in the countryside, maybe then you could learn some REAL skills.

          I’m leaving china in december because I’m tired of seeing stupid dry-vagina cunts like you all around me.

          you’re so lucky you have the right of speech but I don’t think you deserve it.

          • eattot

            El Puma R.:
            no wonder why your such an english tutor in china….
            i spit at your face….
            i am sure your mother’s cunt is dry.sob!
            if u could be some manager or whatever i do not think u would leave, right?
            typical loser……do not blaim how lame yourself but insult people give you a shit so that u can have food and room here. so low.
            i am sure your heart is stinky as your mouth!

          • Boris

            El Puma,
            You’re in the wrong job. When I first got here 8 years ago I worked in a seriously good university. I didn’t know half the subjects I was supposed to be teaching, but I grafted hard and spent pretty all of my time planning and teaching. I’ve never been welcomed as much in my entire life as I was by those students. In fact, during my first year my favourite class was first thing Monday morning. I was always excited to see them, and to try out my creations on them, and see how they responded. I’d get a round of applause pretty much after every class. My situation has changed. I had to leave the university because foreign teachers are now required to have a masters. So now I work in a place and experience the kind of phone addiction you are talking about. Some of these kids are going to get arthritis in their thumbs from all the texting. Irony is, my old uni can’t employ any foreign teachers -no-one here out in the styx with a high enough level of qualifications. Anyway, trust me… you can find a fantastic job here if you shop around, and it will completely change your attitude to Chinese students.

          • El Puma R.

            Boris

            in fact you’re talking about my last try to like living here in China. I’m looking for jobs as we speak. Thanks man

          • El Puma R.

            Eattot

            I can get way better food and accommodation back home (sigh), you know, my needs are not so materialistic as yours and fortunately I will be home by the time the Chinese financial bubble explodes and leave all of you with nothing but dust and smoke.

            Loser, me? probably in the eyes of those who aren’t as smart as I am. My mom? Much more woman than you will ever be in your insignificant life.

    • eattot

      i do not care what u say, anyway i wont post here any more, i am busy for wedding also this lame website seems not welcome me, every time i post asks me to verify my email, fuck!so fucking annoying!
      no more. ask ur mum verify this fucking email!
      you fuck with yourseves.
      no more!

      • Jennster

        you are a character, llmao

      • El Puma R.

        haha you’re getting married?
        …2-3 years later, eattot gets divorced and sends a letter to her late husband:

        “i do not care what u say, anyway i wont live here any more, i am busy for shopping also this lame family seems not welcome me, every time i come home asks me to verify my phone, fuck!so fucking annoying!
        no more. ask ur mum verify this fucking phone!
        you fuck with yourseves.
        no more!”

  • BigJ

    It’s just a job for you to go there and maybe have a good time, see some shit while you make a few dollars. There is no way in fuck you can make any kind of money like to buy anything nice like a car, house ect.. Nobody who is an adult Australian wants to do that shit. The job is for little kids and black/asian who is not from that country. I know first hand about this.

    Im from Nova Scotia, Canada. And we have lots of apple orchards,blueberry fiends and strawberry fields. When I was 12,13 and 14 I would spend a month of my summer vacation picking apples and sometimes rake blueberries. They got little kids to do it because no one wants to do that shit. And some of the bigger apple orchards in the valley they would get Africans to come over and pick apples. They never complained and did a really good job. They never had to pay for anything like food or apartment, just pick apples. It’s not an hourly wage, you get payed for what you do. So they would work really fucking fast and pick all they can. And after the summer go back to their shit poor country they are from and live pretty good. One of the perks is you can eat all the apples you want lol. That’s a starving african’s dream. The point is, it’s not a job for a university student….it is if you just want to make some spending money while you are there….or you are a kid who wants some summer money….or from a piss poor country…that’s it.

    • Jahar

      DUDE, me too man! Grew up in Lower Sackville. Lived in the valley for 10 years.

      But I have a buddy from Australia. The pay for farm labour is considerably better there.

      • tai wai

        Grew up in Lower Sackville.

        Why did you leave? Did you…

        *sunglasses*

        … get sacked?

        Yeeeaaaaah.

        • Jahar

          It’s boring and it sucks. I left to get out of there.

          • Jahar

            I just realized you were making a pun. God I’m stupid.

          • BigJ

            Yeah it is boring. It’s beautiful but so laid the fuck back. You can be content if you get stoned all day, or your 80 years old. It’s like the land time forgot.

          • tai wai

            I just realized you were making a pun.

            It was either Caruso glasses, or some lame attempt to invoke Lord of the Rings. Sackville… Baggins… eheh.

            Eh, I tried.

        • Dr Dust Cell

          “… get sacked?”

          Roared like a lion shot in the ass. +1

      • BigJ

        Right on :)..I’m from Weymouth..little village close to Digby. Yeah the pay in Nova Scotia for that work is not so great. I wonder if the Australians actually do the work. Or if its all just imported or little kids doing it. I don’t think its anything you can make a living off of.

        • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

          Cool! My mom’s family hails from Nova Scotia and from reading our family history book, it seems we’re a pretty big deal there with a rich history and towns and stuff named after some of my ancestors. (Not Sackville though, I think) I’d love to visit there sometime and even seen video of some guys surfing some decent waves, though it must be friggin cold.

        • jahar

          My sister lives in Weymouth. I knew two hot french chicks from there. Used to go to Dances in Little Brook when i was in high school.

          I think it’s a case of us from developed countries either thinking we should get office jobs, or just being lazy.

        • Umm

          We do it. My sister was a fruit picker travelling Australia. Then she met someone and decided to stay longer. Minimum wage in Australia is $16 an hour. You don’t get paid by the hour, but it still works out to be about the same.
          My boyfriend’s friend came to Australia, went to a little town in Queensland and saved up $20,000 in 6 months. My boyfriend worked for 3 months in Melbourne on his working holiday visa and saved up $6,500. He was getting less than minimum wage.

        • Dr Hung Low

          Im from australia and no its not something you can or want to make a living out of. If aussies do it it is mainly kids fresh out of high school or university, or guys going on a road trip and looking to make some extra travel money

    • BigJ

      It depends on the person how much you make. The african’s who pick apples would make some money, you would be surprised….but they had to work like their life depended on it. Some of them would work 20 hours a day. Not because they are forced to, just the more you do the more you make. Some would sleep in the orchard just so when they wake up they can get back to work. I just can’t see a taiwanese university student doing that.

      • whatamess

        sounds like planting trees in Alberta. same thing, the more you plant the more you make.

      • jeffli

        Oh yeah Africa now!!!
        yeah I wanna go on a fruit picking backing “holiday” in Congo or Angola, maybe Liberia?
        get real!!!

        Australia and New Zealand are one of the least screwed up developed countries in the first world.

        When I graduated I went on a backpacking tour of Australia, when money was looking short I’d do some fruit picking, make some money and travel to another place, I met lots of interesting locals, as well as foreigners (France, Chile, Italian, German)
        I had fun for 6 months after four years studying engineering.

        Stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

        Every two years a backpacker gets eaten by a crocodile! BFW!

  • http://www,facebook.com/kedafu Kedafu

    once again…..

    song of the article

    Teresa Tang live in 1976
    in Japanese

    http://www.56.com/u60/v_MTkxNDExOTM.html

    五毛党

    • jeffli

      Yeah……… Live on an Apple farm in Tasmania.
      Tian mimi

      • jeffli

        Japanese Blues hahaha!
        sounds like “minnie the moocher”
        Hai Di Hai Di Hai Di Hay!
        Ho Di Ho Di Ho Di hooooo

        • moop

          my math teacher once said he had “the beefy macaroni blues” after a day of intense diarrhea in the smoky mountains

    • Getrealson

      No way mate,

      Song of the article

      Men at work
      Land downunder!

      • BigJ

        Travelling in a fried-out combie
        On a hippie trail, head full of zombie
        I met a strange lady, she made me nervous
        She took me in and gave me breakfast
        And she said,

        “Do you come from a land down under?
        Where women glow and men plunder?
        Can’t you hear, can’t you hear the thunder?
        You better run, you better take cover.” :)

        Fuckin’ right lol

        • BigJ

          When I was younger I thought it was “Where women BLOW and men plunder?” :)

          • Getrealson

            haha…I thought it was ‘where women blow and men Chunder!’

          • mr. wiener

            That verse is “Where beer does flow and men chunder”
            Did you know some bag of dicks yank bought the rights to “Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree” Then retrospectively sued men at work for using the riff from it, years after the song came out. The colossal pricks won too.
            Lawyers will be the first up against the wall come the revolution.

          • BigJ

            Yeah I knew about the them getting sued. And they only say”Where beer does flow and men chunder” once in the song. The rest of time it’s “Where women glow and men plunder”.

  • bigJ

    :) Littlebrook teen dance. lol I use to love going to that shit. I remember you use to be able to smoke in there. Lots of fight too:) Always the Weymouth boys would fight with the french kids and the Digby kids lol.Just the assholes would fight.Yeah lots of french girls there man. :) We use to get drunk and stoned before we went.:) That brought back some memories:) How old are you Jahar?

    • Jahar

      34. I just lived in the area (port maitland) for 2 years, then went back to the valley. Was a good time though.

      • BigJ

        29, I lived there until I was 24 and then moved to Grand Prairie and worked in the oil industry and made a shit ton of money and moved to China and live like a king. My job is only for 8 months of year and I have 4 months off. This year I stayed in China longer, I took an extra year off. It’s been over 4 years since i’ve been home “Nova Scotia”. I think next year i’m going to go back and see if my house is still standing in Weymouth after I let my cousin live there. :)

  • http://500px.com/whiskersthecat whiskersthecat

    Taiwan needs it’s own site, not lumped together with China.

    • jeffli

      Taiwan Tickle?

    • tai wai

      TaiwanBELONGSTOCHINA.com?

    • Cooljackal

      TaiwanOWNED.com?

    • mr. wiener

      TaiwanBETELNUT?
      TaiwanCHODOFU?

    • Dr Dust Cell

      TaiwanTRASH
      TaiwanPROVINCE
      TaiwanWHIMPER

      no, I like weiner’s TaiwanBETELNUT the best

  • http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/831224-teacher-wants-sex-with-students-to-say-sorry-for-japanese-invasion starting

    taiwanese to live among white people gets you shorter life spans,

    Life Expectancy Is Shrinking for Some White People
    By Dashiell Bennett | The Atlantic Wire – 7 hrs ago

    Email
    Print

    Researchers have found a disturbing trend while examining life expectancy in the United States, as the least educated white Americans have actually seen a massive drop in number of years that they live. The most shocking decline was in white women without a high school diploma, who “lost five years of life between 1990 and 2008, an almost unheard of decline. For example, one of the biggest life expectancy declines ever seen was among Russian men who lost an average of seven years after the fall of the Soviet Union, according to The New York Times.

    The new study, by the University of Illinois at Chicago, specifically compared groups by their level of education, as the amount of schooling one has tends to predict other health issues as well. Less educated people are more likely to smoke, be obese, abuse drugs, and (most importantly) lack health insurance. The gap between life expectancy for white women with a college degree and those without a high school diploma is more than 10 years. For men, it’s 13 years.

    Researchers looking for a silver lining point out that the number of Americans without a high school diploma has dropped dramatically since 1990, both shrinking the size of that pool and also making it more likely that they will be disadvantaged in other ways. But the doesn’t change that fact that the result are still alarming. All other racial groups at the same level of education have seen steady increases in life expectancy over the last two decades, though overall black men and women still do not live as long as whites.

    • zozimos

      Please note:
      ” as the least educated white Americans have actually seen a massive drop in number of years that they live..”
      Taiwanese do not live among ‘least educated’ white people.

    • jeffli

      Why do now talk life expectancy?
      the title is “Taiwanese on Working Holiday Visas in Australia Criticized”
      go and live with Somalians your life expectancy will be much shorter – duhhh!

      Backpacker working holiday types have always been exploited as cheap labour in Australia.

  • muses_woods

    This is so encouraging! We need media like this who interview people with positive view for life.

  • David

    Is this 上山下乡 activity? Or perhaps teach the Aussie farmers something about Chinese culture?

  • Jennster

    taiwanese gdp per capita is not equal or even half of what Australia has yet. lower your expectations brehs…

  • Irvin

    Hey Fauna, the rss link is broken or at least not working in china, can you fix that? thanks, love and enjoy your site.

  • Dr Dust Cell

    Wait, one thing, the final comment says 非洲 and that’s Africa, not the Philippines.

  • Jennster

    my cousin (international student) can even get 55k for some unrelated degree job. his friend gets 75k for engineerin job @ aound age 25.

    • tai wai

      In what country, currency?

      • Cooljackal

        Could be america. 55k would be a a fairly new grad with one actuarial exam, or even a entry-level network tech at a medium sized company. Engineering with a P.E or a couple of years of experience could be at 75k by that age. But unless you are moving up the ranks and past engineering into management, your pay will start following the log curve.

  • Jennster

    australian dollar

    and i think they are pr

  • Bill Stack

    What difference does it make if they are gay! (read the headline again)

  • kitkatz23

    I actually own a property in rural Victoria, Australia near Swan Hill (the place mentioned in the article). Compared to other work here, the pay for fruit picking is ok, but it’s hard work. I think the pay is usually per crate of fruit, not hourly based. Yes, most of the fruit pickers are overseas Asians in Australia on a working holiday visa or student visa. There is work pretty much all year round, if there is no fruit picking, then there is grape vine or tree trimming work. Personally, I think the main reason why so many fruit pickers are asians is because their english skills are not good enough for other employment in the city, or their qualifications are lacking.

  • Mengkus

    Why does Chinasmack refer to China and Taiwan as the same country? Any westerner would distinguish between the two nationalities. Chinese have no sense and fashion, treat women badly, are rude and socially awkward. Taiwanese are none of this. I hate propaganda BS.

    • Dat Ankle

      I dont think its propaganda more then general belief of Taiwan belonging to China. That or it just easier and cheaper to put Taiwanese stories in the same website as chinasmack then make a whole new one.

  • Xiongmao

    With all the things going on in China over the past week, this is really the most interesting CS could come up with? How about the government sanctioned riots and lootings?

    • Bo Xilai For Emperor

      Yeah exactly what happened with all the “burn all Japanese cars and beat up all the Chinese drivers that are in it?” that should be great news. And the stupid assholes who uses the whole “anti-japan” thing to go on a riot and looting rampage. I think those assholes should be parachuted onto that piece of crap rock and be a true patriot

      • tai wai

        Their excuse is that they only translate what is on Chinese forums.

        And, of course, news of the riots isn’t on Chinese forums.

        ChinaSMACK: Bringing you all the news that (Beijing says) is fit to print!

        • Bo Xilai For Emperor

          Well, I guess the long arms of the commie politibuto is everywhere now…even on ChinaSMACK…lol

  • kodi

    They just don’t get it. Its ok whatever their opinion is because it has not yet gotten to the point in the world when the Chinese point of view is substantially taken seriously by a majority. I guess people with worldly perspectives are like Aliens in China because a majority of everyone else is blindly following the herd.

    Its like that in almost every country, but extremely overexagerated in China.

  • Cleo

    When I see the Taiwanese fisherman who are headed toward Diaoyutai, I cry because they are so hard working and so vulnerable and so overwhelmed by Japan that they have been restraining themselves for so long from fishing in the nearby waters.

    To be bullied so badly for so long and to maintain their courtesy and equilibrium under the Japanese is unspeakably painful.

  • Paul

    Just to put this in perspective, according to recent news reports on the strawberry “crisis” (huge harvest, to the point where the market price of strawberries has dropped below the cost of labour so they are leaving fields unpicked), the minimum wage is up to $21 per hour. This is fairly significant because Australia doesn’t have that huge a wage gap between menial and office work at the lower end (although compared to America, it doesn’t also have forced unpaid “internships” as a prerequisite for graduate positions), and both the US and European economic crises have seen the Aussie dollar skyrocket in relative value.

  • hspien

    Good exposure i believe for young ppl. Travelling and learning things by doing and learning about another culture by meeting and interacting is the best form of education

    Risk taking, later in adulthood, is linked to how you develop your senses when you were growing up. Its nuture and yes partly nature. But we evolve and how we evolve is shaped by environment and what we do

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ERKURTKST25X6RJ75YVCRPRBIQ Tom Thumb

    I think people are eliding one, key point about going to Australia:

    IT’S THE LUCKY COUNTRY.

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