US Says China Can Report Air Quality of American Cities Too

Chinese residents in Beijing wearing face masks due to the visible air pollution and poor air quality..

From NetEase:

United States: Not opposed to China also publicly reporting America’s air quality

After The Ministry of Environmental Protection of the People’s Republic of China accused a foreign consulate’s publishing of Chinese air quality data as not conforming to regulations, the United States State Department responded by saying that the data published by the United States’ is simply to provide information for American citizens in China, not interfering with China’s internal affairs, and therefore will not stop publishing such data.

As a result of the “foreign embassy launching monitoring and public reporting of China PM 2.5 air quality data” matter, Assistant Minister Wu Xiaoqing of China’s Ministry of Environmental Protection indicated, “Doing this is already not in line with the requirements of international conventions, nor does it conform with China’s requirements. According to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, diplomatic personnel have a duty to respect the host country’s laws and regulations, and cannot interfere with the host country’s internal affairs.” In response, the State Department of the United States denied that the United States is interfering with China’s internal affairs and indicated that the air quality data it publishes for some cities in China is only providing a service for American citizens.

A Chinese woman wearing a face mask that looks like a panda in Beijing due to the polluted air.

Reporter: “You believe publishing weather reports is not interfering with China’s internal affairs?”

United States State Department Spokesperson Toner: “No, we don’t believe so.”

Reporter: You also don’t believe this violates the Vienna Convention?”

United States State Department Spokesperson Toner: “Of course not. This is a service provided for American citizens, the Americans who work in the Embassy community and live in China.”

Toner expressed that the United States will not stop publishing its monitoring data because of China’s criticisms. He also said if China were to also publish the air quality data of American cities, the United States would not object.

United States State Department Spokesperson Toner: “The United States has already started publishing [air quality] monitoring data in some American cities. We would not oppose (China publishing such data on American cities).”

It is reported that the United States Embassy has been publishing Beijing air quality data once every hour since 2008.

A Chinese person riding on a bike against the hazy smoggy polluted Beijing air background.

Comments from NetEase:

lbg224522 [网易广西南宁市网友]:

This is treating people with respect, using reason to convince people.

红尘三千丈 [网易辽宁省沈阳市网友]:

What a resounding slap to the face, hehe.

奸择民 [网易浙江省杭州市网友]:

Another form of mockery, what an embarrassment.

龙德云 [网易广东省汕头市网友]:

Sigh, someone publicizes your air quality and you start saying something about infringing upon sovereignty? Not only is China so pathetically weak over the Huangyan Island situation, now even America is telling you to publicize its air quality, what a garbage country.

社会能言度 [网易广东省广州市网友]:

Society is progressing, invariably concealing things is no longer feasible.

自由圣骑士 [网易北京市网友]:

Don’t you feel stupid now?! Sitting here waiting for the news conference to see how posture brother will mechanically respond!

网易上海市网友:

Such a slap to the face!

美文化 [网易河南省郑州市网友]:

The right to know… Hope our country will go to America and publicize… Don’t let the Americans dupe their country’s people…

时代精神运动 [网易上海市嘉定区网友]:

National secret!

美文化 [网易河南省郑州市网友]:

Evil American Imperialism…

keykang [网易河北省廊坊市网友]:

As a developing nation, we do have problems/inadequacies in this and that, it would be strange if we didn’t. The only thing that matters is that we have the attitude and means to correct them.
The United States in the midst of industrializing also had this kind of unavoidable problem. Just because PM [monitoring and health awareness] had not yet been established then doesn’t mean America was clean.

网易辽宁省大连市网友: (responding to above)

Indeed, there was no problem when they were developing [industrializing] wildly as they pleased until the manufacturing industry was everywhere, but when you want to develop/industrialize, they keep complaining about global warming and how the air is being polluted again. Here they tacitly consent to Japan draining their nuclear leak into the ocean, and there they worry year after year about the global environment. Whether as a person or as a country, this kind of behavior is despicable.

网易江西省南昌市手机网友: (responding to above)

Wumao holding each other for warmth.

A日理万鸡 [网易广东省广州市网友]: (responding to above)

What [keykang & 网易辽宁省大连市网友] said was quite rational/reasonable! Ding!

网易辽宁省大连市网友: (responding to above)

NetEase has always been a website/media that unfairly labels people, so I don’t care what people call me. I simply wonder why a country that backed out of the Kyoto Protocol, a country that is number one in energy consumption year after year, feels it has the standing to monitor other people’s air quality. Moreover, some [Chinese] people have become slaves, used to being dogs prostrated on the floor, where they would find it awkward to if you were to let them stand up and be their own master. In the face of Western culture, people like this not only blindly worship it, they also unconsciously spiritually kneel down before it.

网易美国手机网友: (responding to above)

Hurry and go read Global Times.

网易浙江省杭州市网友: (responding to above)

There is no reason to excuse polluting the environment.

网易浙江省杭州市手机网友:

Slap slap slap.

What do you think?

Poor visibility at Tiananmen Square in Beijing due to fog or smog (air pollution), as a Chinese man flies a kite.

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • DonnieD

    from my dirty sofa

  • Kim Jung iLL

    Chinese are hypocrite, that’s why they never progress much in term of civilization. They only want to hear good things. Anyone who traveled out of China knows China has terrible air quality. Hence any measurement is no longer significant.

    • Muay Thai guy

      Did you actually read the comments? If they are in any form representative of the overall comments they gloat about the embarrassment the US embassy gave to Chinese officials. But I suspect many posters here are Americans and we all know how good they are in detecting sarcasm ;-)

      • Winterbitten

        Amazingly awesome?

      • kilroy238

        It would be nice though for comments that as you say are blatantly sarcastic to include a ;) so those of us who can’t read Chinese can get the joke.

    • Chris

      Publishing air quality data?

      data is data. data it is neither good or evil.
      Modern society: technology, science, even engineering – all comes from experimentation – the core component of which is data.

      Theirs a difference between measuring air quality to make a point,
      and measuring air quality to better understand the world we live in.

      Even if the data has no use now, it can be very useful in the future.

      Lets say china one day invents a special cheap molecule that cleanses the air. Than they can release that molecule into the environment, gather data, and compare it to this control data that’s already been gathered to know if it actually made a difference / and if so, how much / and with that; if it’s worth the expense.

      • ed

        moron they’re not objecting to the data

        they are objecting to the publicizing of that data

        you do understand the difference?

        they feel that the US is politicizing it.

        you sound like a fucking moron like 9/10 posters on this site

        EXCLUDING ME and anyone else cool enuf to agree w/me. but seriously though you’re stupid

    • hacienda

      there is one thing the chinese elite succeeded in doing:
      brainwashing the masses through all this years.
      only the elite who can get out of the country including their children who can study abroad can see the real world.

      • justmega

        How is that any different from the American(or any other country’s) sheeple? It’s all varying shades of gray. Americans are just as easily duped. MTV, sports, reality shows, mass comm, all used to stupify & manipulate people all while injecting, feeding, spraying poisons into us. ‘Real world’? What real world do you speak of?

  • Jeff

    China has air quality issues? Well that is a by-product of being the nigger to the world…

    • moop

      do you have a newsletter?
      i’d love to read it

      • pada

        NEWLETTER tonight is about a kinda treaty signed by Hu and Putin about military cooperation, including, listen carefully, “both countries will greatly withdraw their militaries from commen border”. I guess they are toasting maotai and votka at moment and so is great prophet Engdahl who predicted this day.

        You see Moop, time to forget Beijing’s air. Panetta said yesterday “a strong Vietcong is the key for peace of Asia” and today China and Russia are teaming up to protect our world against this hegemonic monster the Super Borrower ;) and make our globe a more balanced and nicer place for all of us poor souls to live, with or without bad air, lol!

        • moop

          i’m sure this sounds more clever in your native language, might i suggest getting a sound handle on international politics before spouting shit? all this will do is bring india, japan, polish, vietnam, etc closer into the fold. the move by russia and china accomplishes nothing

          • pada

            Oh even Vietnam! Is that the same Vietcong which reminds me of Orange, Tonkin (not WMD), My Lai, and a long long black marble wall? When I was young and naive as you are today, I never expected US would one day be so debt-ridden that it downgrade itself to ally with commie of such sworn enemy. lol!

          • moop

            like north korea or pakistan? herp dee derp dee durpety dumb

          • Zhegezhege

            The only thing Russia and China can agree on is that they don’t like how America is number 1. They are both kleptocracies interested in nothing but furthering the power of their kleptocracy. The sole purpose of this photo op is to trick hateful domestic nationalists like pada in to believing that, if they just stick with the program, America is doomed and soon Russia and China will be calling the shots.

            But that’s all it is: a show. Russia is at least as suspicious of China’s purportedly peaceful rise as anyone. That’s why they’re keeping the Chinese out of Siberian mining contracts and that’s why they’re teaming up with Vietnam to explore energy reserves in the South China Sea.

  • staylost

    What do I think?

    Don’t live in Beijing unless yourself or your children want to die an early death. You don’t need air quality testing to come up with that conclusion.

    It makes me so sad that such a wonderful city is filled with so much poison.

  • fredf

    China and the Chinese people have a victim mentality.
    No matter what happens, China is always the innocent little victim.

    5000 years of history, and still developing…… why is that ?

    • Alan

      5000 years of history, and still developing…… why is that ?

      Do they want to answer that one? You raise a fair point.

      Hate on America, fine. Close the KFC’s, Starbucks, ban importing of American cars….either China wants to live in paddy fields and famine around cultural revolution times, or it wants to be a capitalist big shot on the world stage. Which is it to be?

      • RickyJinzhou

        I have noted on many many occasions how capitalist this place is for a communist country. They use the word capitalist as derogatory, but when the camel in the local zoo is sponsored by lipton ice tea, well……

      • KongMingQin

        Nothing wrong in living in small villages and paddy fields… now that cultural revolution part… bleh I think is a good ideia ban KFC,Starbucks,fast-food,cars,western music… people needs to eat traditional food…
        and hear traditional music,follow the cultural rites… homage to ancestors

        • Alan

          ban KFC,Starbucks,fast-food,cars,western music… people needs to eat traditional food…

          Very well, and close the airports, stop making planes, stop mobile phone services and TV signals while you are at it.

    • Small Bean

      1. it is called Pathological Narcissism and Grandiose Self Defense
      2. the 5000 years of history, the whole rest of the world has that too, our ancestors just decided that sitting in the same hole wasn’t exciting, so we ventured forth. (5000 not really true either, the chinese are rounding up, after rounding up, after rounding up, its more like 4000 at most, but then they wouldn’t be better than Egypt-3050BC)

      • fredf

        Thanks for putting a name on a behavior that is commonly seen in China.
        If you have not seen it already, you might find this to be of interest:

        http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/narcissistic-types-chinese-women.htm

        • Alan

          I like Dr Gregs site and have read that article before, it is very true.

        • Capt. WED

          I read a little bit of that and skim the rest… what a load of biased bullshit…

          #1….

          show us this significantly increased likelihood lol… I have plenty of examples of healthy relationships.

          the other problem with your little blog post is it’s extremely biased. It only lists negative, narcissistic types and you give one example, all the while using qualifiers like “many” because it seems like that make sense. (I wrote it down!!! Well I also guarantee there are plenty of “normal” people out there. Because I guarantee it because because read wikipedia!!!) He doesn’t mention those at all, only negative anecdotes. It’s very misleading. Also where does he gets his anecdote from? He gets it off his experience with some mail-bride (lol dating) service? We ALL KNOW the reputations of those sites, and it’s not a China only phenomenon. Misleading, irrelevant, and biased.

          Lastly, your little blog link is completely unoriginal. Part of it spins off the stereotype of Asian women running off to western man because their culture devalues them. Certainly the stereotype has a historical basis, however this culture is not in stasis and is constantly evolving. Plus it never was black & white as the stereotypes often imply with the women being completely powerless. It definitely is not like that in this day and age*

          *At least not generally applicable to everyone. Are there major problems? Yes.

          • Capt. WED

            conversely, I’ve heard anecdots of how very controlling western man are with their Chinese wives (can’t do this can’t do that be home at certain time cook cook cook do this and do that). LMAO. According to logic of this site, this means it shows that western man are religious freaks who are all very controlling in relationships.

            Religious Freaks

          • Little Wolf

            Capt. To be honest, most of the foreigners I know with Chinese wives are the most neutered, henpecked motherfuckers I’ve ever laid my eyes on.
            Having said that…I’ll probably die alone but at least with my dignity intact.

          • mr. wiener

            Guilty as charged. I could bring out the heavy weaponry, but it would be a pyriaic victory. Never start a major land war in asia, or argue with a Chinese wife.

          • Small Bean

            Here is your wumao sir. Enjoy the car!

          • Little Wolf

            wiener, I seriously doubt that. Avoiding an argument just to keep the peace is not the same as handing her your balls on a platter. I once had to loan a 100 kuai to an Australian guy for taxi fare because he had to go home and kill a spider on the wall that was terrifying his girlfriend.(To be fair, he may have been the ugliest guy I ever laid my eyes on and so his chances of finding a new gf were mighty slim) Another guy was forced to sell his motorcycle. I got a ton of examples. I was recently given an ultimatum to get rid of my dogs or lose my girlfriend and it totally backfired on her when I told her to leave and the dogs stay. I could tell she was certain I’d choose her over my dogs. The kicker is …my dogs will be going to the USA soon anyway. But just the idea of trying to make me choose was enough to show her true colors and that was it for her.
            My first Chinese girlfriend dumped an entire thermos of boiling water over my head, completely Pearl Harboring me while I had my back turned eating my supper. Luckily, I was wearing a sweatshirt “hoody”. Not on my head but it covered my neck and soaked up the water enough to minimize the burns which felt like hot lava on top of my head.(there are still scars under my hair)

          • mr. wiener

            Agreed, you have too draw the line somewhere and being handed ultimatums brings out the worst in me. My wife knows and respects this at least so she’s not stupid [or a closet narcissist]. Also my wife doesn’t get violent unless she’s drunk [not too often fortunately] . This is where knowing Brazilian Jujitsu comes in handy for non violent takedowns and holds. One time I had too pin her until she fell asleep.
            Sometimes you just have to work out if the fucking you’re getting is worth the fucking you are getting :)

          • I suppose that I’m the exception to that rule cause my Asian wifey is pure f*cking awesome. She’s the one who goes out and brings home xbox games for me or point out a hot girl to me and other stuff that husbands usually get in trouble for.

            There’s really only two things that she keeps a rein on and that’s the stupid stuff I do that could get me hurt or worse like riding a motorcycle in chinaand snaking through traffic or wasting my money on stuff I don’t really need or use much. Also, she has a tendency to tune out when I get pissed at something retarded in china, like on.CCTV or on the street or.wherever. She says it’s not worth even noticing let alone thinking about and commenting on.

            I could be cynical and say she’s protecting her investment’s future, but I’m a true romantic at heart when it comes to her. She’s still not getting her half-blood till we’re properly settled in Canada, no matter how many times she begs me with the big sad eyes…

          • Little Wolf

            Elijah, I wasn’t singling any forum members out. I was only bringing up some characters I’ve come across over the years. Guys for which “cool” simply does not exist. I would say most of the demographic of guys here are probably not the type I was talking about in the first place. And I know there are plenty of great Chinese girls out there. I suppose it is easy for alot of guys to be dominated by their Chinese wives since they are often reliant on them for even the simplest things when the women are on their home turf.

          • moop

            妻管严… story of my life

      • Kexin Renlei

        Yes! An actual scientific, anthropological perspective. All the world’s people have about 200,000 years of history, in fact. Still trying to figure out a pithy way to deliver this line in Chinese.

      • dim mak

        Faggots.

        The 4000+ history is boasted on the basis that China is the only civilization with a CONTINUOUS and more or less stable ethnic/cultural identity when compared to anywhere else in the world.

        And it’s true. We are.

        u jelly?

        i think u jelly.

        • tai wai

          The 4000+ history is boasted on the basis that China is the only civilization with a CONTINUOUS and more or less stable ethnic/cultural identity when compared to anywhere else in the world.

          Oh, bullshit. There is nothing “harmonious” about China’s civilization. Not even the last 50 years.

          “Although Confucius is dead, his corpse continues to emit its stench even today. Its poison is deep and its influence extensive.” Typical govt broadcast from 1974; You’d not hear that today.

          No, it seems the only constants in Chinese culture are arrogance, social climbing, disdain for “outsiders,” and mob mentality. Oh, and everyone is the same race. Not really stuff to brag about.

          • dim mak

            I didn’t say harmonious or “race”, fruitcup. But we are more like our ancestors in many ways than people anywhere else. Fact.

          • tai wai

            But we are more like our ancestors in many ways than people anywhere else.

            How so? Other than the pooping in holes thing, of course.

          • dim mak

            In language, script, custom, and Han identity, that’s how.

          • Alan

            Tai wai, well said man!

            Maybe the more people who call him out on his arrogant racist bs, the more he will realize he is wrong, but I won’t hold my breath.

            Arguing with people like dim mak, is like trying to reason with a born again christian about sin, or a baptist about creationism/evolution. When we say anything he doesn’t like to hear, he goes into typical baby defensive mode, and starts plugging his ears…..

          • Dando Z

            “But we are more like our ancestors in many ways than people anywhere else. Fact… In language, script, custom, and Han identity, that’s how.”

            The myriad spoken dialects of Chinese are barely mutually intelligible and scarcely resemble one another let alone those of their ancestors, everyone types in pinyin (whose script is that?), filial piety is not at all culturally unique, and unless you know everything about everywhere else, the only reason you could possibly presume that Chinese people closely resemble their ancestors is Han chauvanism, that’s how.

        • donscarletti

          What about Greece and Iran? Remember the Persian wars? Back then, the Greeks were lazy and corrupt while the Aryans were warlike and ambitious to the point of insanity. Sounds familiar?

          What about the isolated tribes in the Amazon, or the Australian Aborigines? Surely they have been doing their thing in roughly the same way since before the world had heard of Shang or the made up Xia dynasty before it.

          • dim mak

            >Xia
            >made up

            Donald.

            Don’t do that again.

          • KongMingQin

            XIA DYNASTY??? MADE UP??? WHAT THE …!!!!
            Dont be stupid, Xia Dynasty existed… THEN it came Shang [Yin] Dynasty ¬¬” AND way before xia there was the 5 sovereigns period too

        • staylost

          If that is your argument, I’ll accept about 2000 years of history. Everything up to and including the Qin dynasty was diverse and in cultural conflict with the other parts of what is now China. The Qin dynasty itself was more of a purging of culture, not a flowering of culture.

          That is behind India’s Asoka by a few years, and less than half of Egypt. But at this point we could be counting Rome, Greece, and a hundred other places as equal too.

          I’m sure you will find some small detail to dispute, but your “4000+” years of history, the way you are defining it, is going to be filled with enough qualifiers to make it meaningless.

          • dim mak

            Nonsense, whatever diversity was underpinned by a shared Chinese culture and language no different than factions in Greece were still Greeks.

            None of the places you listed have endured the way China has, if not drastically altered by foreign influences.

            Empires rise and fall, but China has always persevered.

          • staylost

            I’m afraid your position is entirely unconvincing. China’s history is one of empire and diversity, not of a single shared culture. You are simply selling China short and buying into the murderous delusions of Qin Shi Huang.

          • Kaun

            Troll harder d2

          • dim mak

            And you’re just grasping at nothing

            Do you really deny that all Chinese states have shared most aspects of Chinese language, script, Confucian, Legalist and Daoist beliefs? All this is easily verifiable. Different Chinese factions have always regarded each other as Chinese, the Hua-Yi distinction was never lost no matter which civil war or how much one statelet hated another.

            Implying that the Zhou dynasty or warring states did not share a common, Chinese culture just because they were unified under one government later is simply a fallacy.

          • KongMingQin

            Dim Mak is right… ancient Roman,Greek,Egyptian,Norse culture was all but exterminated by invasions and specially by the Christian ”holocaust” of culture during the late roman empire and middle ages, while Chinese culture,even parcially exists untill today.

        • Alan

          But we are more like our ancestors in many ways than people anywhere else. Fact.

          Yawn, more han-azi propaganda.

          On your bedroom wall do you have posters of Mao, Hitler and Stalin and Goebbels that you tug off to? You are one very scary boat boy, I’ll give you that.

          Now which are you, Canadian or Chinese?

          If you are Canadian born, forgive me, I just like playing devil’s advocate.

          • Chom

            Alan,sorry, had to reply when I say your comment.

            “Now which are you, Canadian or Chinese?

            If you are Canadian born, forgive me, I just like playing devil’s advocate.”

            Your basically admitting you discriminate against someone based on where they were born. If he was born in China then what he said needs to be propaganda, but if he was born in Canada, you treat him differently?

          • Alan

            @ Chom:

            Not at all. But he cannot profess to be a hong konger, when it suits him, nor a canadian, but then bleat on about 5,000 years of glorious civilisation.

            As a brit, and as prince phil is basically a greek, and the queen and royal family are basically germans, I could trace my ancestry back to ancient civilizations….which is HE?

        • Alejandro

          In language, script, custom, and Han identity, that’s how.

          hahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaa

          Language??? 8 basic official languages and a lot of hidden languages? (hidden = they say dialects but they are languages)
          Script??? oh my God, they have at least 3 main scripts nowadays that does not share too much with the original script. Besides every language has its own script and they are not following some ancient forms of language (文言文).
          Customs??? Zara, Gucci…yeah, sure… quite traditional.
          Han identity??? that’s bullshit. you stare to one northern so called han and a southern so called han and you can tell that they are like a spaniard and a german…
          5000 years of history? do you have any idea of chinese history? please! it’s even more chaotic than Europe! and it’s not continuous! please stop lying!

          About the new it’s indeed a slap in authorities face: they want an apologize and got a tough slap! They deserve it.

          • dim mak

            >8 basic official languages
            >3 main scripts

            That alone says volumes about how little you understand China

        • Fman

          Rome, Greece… Ring a bell retardo…

          • dim mak

            And where is Rome and Greece now? A shadow of their past and ailing, debt ridden shithole that hasn’t been relevant for 1800 years. China is stronger than ever.

          • Alan

            @ Dim Mak:

            And where is the capital of sun yat sen’s China now, it sure as shit ain’t Zhongshan in Guangdong, is it, despite his statue dominating the park?

            A shadow of their past potential republican glory, mired under an illiterate peasant farmer from central china, and a hakka who introduced one party state gangster capitalism,,,,with millions leaving the CPC membership and desperate to get out at any opportunity. Work it out and grow outside yer box, wannabe canuck…..

          • KongMingQin

            republican glory?? thats total non-sense dumbass… ”potential glory ¬¬” when I say glory, you think of Qin shi huang,Han dynasty,Tang,Ming,Song,etc not of that republican westernized foreign idea shit. ¬¬’

          • Alan

            not of that republican westernized foreign idea shit. ¬¬’

            at racist han chauvinist:

            That is exactly what I was thinking of ACTUALLY:)

            A real REPUBLIC:) It goads you though, I know…..but I like to play devils advocate, esp on a friday to racists like you!!!

        • Tony

          And with all that, Beijing’s air is still filthy. You can keep your identity and I’ll have fresh air.

          • Capt. WED

            @Chinggis I never said there was DIRECT TRADE between Rome and China over the Silkroad.

            @Dr. Sun. You are totally an idiot. it’s not a unique “Han” thing. LMAO.

            100% of people on this site is butt hurt over some shit or another other. And it just degenerates to name calling.

            Go back and read your posts you fucks. It’s all crap.

        • Small Bean

          For two examples that reflect the truth of all ethnic groups having members who are narcissistic, please turn to Dim Mak and Capt. Wed.’s comments. (not meant as an ad hominem, but their comments are)

          One name to ruin it all for you Dim….Ghengis Khan. This badass motherfucker came in and dominated pretty much all of Asian and part of Europe. Too bad you can’t claim he was Han….

          • Capt. WED

            and what exactly is narcissistic about my posts?

            Most members on this site have made extremely narcissistic posts.

          • Capt. WED

            i’m sorry Small Bean but you broke the unspoken rule on this website by saying, “reflect the truth of all ethnic groups having members who are narcissistic”.

          • dim mak

            That’s fine, good for the Khan.

            But where is Mongolia now? How many mongols are in China?
            It’s done. they’re irrelevant and wouldn’t even have their own country if it wasn’t for the Soviets.

        • Rui

          dim mak, if you are discussing, please use facts. I hope you have read at least something about Chinese history and know very well that nations who lived in Central-Northern Plain were not at all the same han chinese looking as they are today. And we don’t even have to mention about North-China and South-China. If you don’t believe imperialistic foreigners then please visit Anyang Yinxu open-air museum, where you can see a face of typical “Chinese” that time in later Shang dynasty (11th century BC). The difference is huge as between European and Arabian. Han-Chinese is mixture of all kinds of small nations who have existed on mainland China during thousands of years. There have never been one han-chinese nation in history – this nation is gradually build-up from conquered small nations from let’s say last 2500 years and not more. Forget about 5000 years of civilized history – even Chinese scholars don’t know what actually happened before Shang Dynasty. I guess you know it pretty well. You also know pretty well how Ming dynasty conquered South-China and migrated thousands of Chinese there to mix nations and build up so called Han-Chinese. You also know pretty well how Manchus were assimilated to become so called Han-Chinese and you know pretty well how Yunnan minorities are assimilated today.

          Second. It is nice that China has their unique writing system and it is also truth that it has been in use very long time (in Anyang there is also very nice Chinese Characters Museum). But tell me, can you read all these texts written on bones and turtles shells? I guess not. How many characters do you know? 5000, 6000 or 12 000? Well, it is around 15% maximum of all characters you have in Chinese. So, how Chinese you REALLY are? What about Khitan language which was also written in Chinese characters?

          Third. Chinese language. Do you think you if you go back to Shang dynasty you can understand what they were talking there? I have to piss you off, because you could not understand any single word, because in Shang dynasty they spoke completely and totally different language than modern Chinese. They didn’t have so many tones as today and words were not made up of syllables, but letters. Like word “white” was “burak”, which during the time became “bai”. Or “kurut” which became “gua” (刮). They used a lot of letter “r” which is almost perished nowadays.

          Europe has many countries but it is still one entity. Differences in Europe are equally same as in China, but in Europe there the nations have rights to establish their own country, but in China there are no rights and one leader has to rule everyone. China can also be separated into small nations, because the differences in many parts of China are so huge. Even foriegners can recognice who is northern chinese and who is southern – physical differences are so obvious. It tells clearly how so called han nation is mixed up of all kinds of nations. Han Chinese are not pure blood at all – don’t believe in all legends you have been told.

          • it’s a pleasure read this kind of comments! thank you for the info!

            I am agree with you: when they say China is one country we can make a comparison with Europe:
            -South european countries such as Portugal, Spain, South France, Italy and maybe Greece.
            -Center European countries such as Austria, Switzerland, Germany Belgium, Netherlands, North France…
            -Baltic countries such as Norway or Finland.

            So we share a common root language like chinese does (indoeuropean) that shares the same script!
            We were a huge nation with an emperor who ruled for more time than Qin ShiHuang. That nation has more than 3000 years!
            We are all caucasian europeans! (wow, this sound quite nazi)

            I can go on saying stupid things about the supposed unity of Europe but the more I compare with chinese culture, the more I laugh! It’s just nationalistic crap (like nazis did)

          • dim mak

            >make up some shit about pure bloodedness
            >claim I said it

            Han people are a pan-ethnic mix of everything that’s been assimilated throughout the ages. That was the point. The original ethnic or genetic identity is not relevant after they’ve been brought into the fold. Go to China right now and ask the average Han Chinese what non-Han tribe they may have came from and if they consider themselves a member of that tribe. Nobody knows, or cares, because we WANT to identify as Han. For real life purposes, that ethnic identity is exercised no differently than a “pure-blooded” ethnic group.

            >how many characters do you know
            No Chinese has ever known but a fraction of all historical characters, do you think that means none of us are Chinese? Tell me, do you know every word in your language?

            >Khitan script
            I like how this is completely irrelevant to the discussion

            >herp derp language changes over time
            And? Both Chinese language and script follow a direct lineage from ancient times to today. This is not true in any region of China’s scale, where languages branch into clearly distinct forms. The similarities between old Chinese and modern Chinese (whichever dialect) is greater than the similarities between say, Latin with Slavic languages, or Greek with Germanic languages.

          • Chinggis was here

            I wanna play too.

            Quote Dim Mak:
            “The 4000+ history is boasted on the basis that China is the only civilization with a CONTINUOUS and more or less stable ethnic/cultural identity when compared to anywhere else in the world.”

            Well apart from the Mongols and Manchus conquering and ruling China and turning it into their playground, labour farm, bank and brothel, we’ll just ignore those blips, shall we? Better still; let’s call the Kublai Khan’s Yuan Dynasty ‘irrelevant’. Great idea! There goes your argument about continuous history.

            Well the Australian Aboriginals have around 40,000 years of ‘CONTINUOUS and more or less stable ethnic/cultural identity’, but I presume you won’t count them because the Chinese are just so superior.

            Quote Dim Mak:
            “None of the places you listed have endured the way China has, if not drastically altered by foreign influences.”

            See above, but we’ll also ignore all those foreign influences like cars, clothes, music and movies.

            Quote Dim Mak:
            “Han people are a pan-ethnic mix of everything that’s been assimilated throughout the ages.”

            Now you’re just being silly and making up definitions as you go along. You’ve just contradicted yourself with the first quote as Han being a “stable ethnic/cultural identity” So therefore, in reality there is no such thing as “pure Han blood and therefore no such thing as Chinese? Or ‘We Chinese”? Or any of this hanjian bullshit?

            Your whole argument has been torn to shreds, not only by the posters above, but by yourself and your only comeback is to use nationalistic drivel and put downs. Your sidekick KongMinQin certainly hasn’t helped.

            I suppose, if you don’t count being recently bitch-slapped by the Philippines as ‘China being strong’, then you are correct. Was it finally decided who owns that rock near Manila? Saying ‘It’s ours, it’s ours” a hundred times with your fingers stuck in your ears doesn’t count as winning an argument and is not a definition of ‘being strong’.

            I don’t why you’d even reply to the posts above. All you’ve succeeded in doing is confirming that:

            1. China is not a continuous civilisation.
            2. There is no such thing as 5,000 years of Chinese culture.
            3. China is and has been dramatically altered by foreign influence.
            5. Han and therefore Chinese is not a race – it’s an identity and therefore anyone can join.
            6. China is not strong.

            Outstanding effort Dim Mak!

          • dim mak

            Utter fail, Chinggis. Nobody here has offered anything concrete against except attempts at derailing the subject. But good try.

            >durr foreign rulers
            Rule by foreigners has not made China any less Chinese, the same way rule by foreigners didn’t make Rome any less Roman. Mongols and Manchus were thoroughly assimilated by the vast number of Han Chinese, and the precious few remaining today, are still being assimilated. How many Mongol and Manchu customs can you name in China, vs homegrown customs? Now try it for any other country.

            >modern technology is the same as foreign customs
            Right, so I suppose when the rest of you started using paper and gunpowder, you became Chinese?

            This just in: a pan-ethnic group comprised of many assimilated peoples, is still an ethnicity. In China’s case, one that has persisted under a unifying culture and grown for thousands of years into the largest ethnic group today. I didn’t say Chinese was a race, you guys did. And you’re right, anyone can join – and become assimilated into the continuous Han collective.

          • Chinggis was here

            Well, calling it an utter fail is a tad harsh.

            1. How many Mongol customs can I name in China? I’m not familiar with the Qing Dynasty/ Manchu.

            As for Mongol customs/culture of the top of my head:
            1. Beijing and Kunqi opera.
            2. Paper money
            3. Initially there was a fair taxation system and drought/disaster relief.
            4. The original Forbidden Palace –separation of rulers from the people – still in practice today.
            5. The establishment of Khanbaliq as the capital; known latter as Beijing and linking it to the rest of China buy building the Grand Canal.
            6. Central government.
            7. The opening up of China through the Silk Road – trade inc the introduction to China of glass and sorghum.
            8. The use of a navy for exploration – hence the little problem with that rock near Manila.
            9. The printing press.
            11. Eastern astronomy, mathematics, cartography and medicine.
            10. The first Chinese postal system through the use of a system of riders established by Genghis.
            11. The first ‘liberation’ of Tibet and what is now Xinjiang as part of the Mongol empire.
            12. Freedom of religious belief. oops
            13. Passports – you guys love ‘em.

            I’m happy to be corrected on the above, and I’d have to check sources to confirm.

            Sure, you can say the Mongols were irrelevant and had no effect on Chinese culture, but from the above list, that’s a pretty arrogant and ignorant thing to do. It also depends whether you define the above as customs/culture. It was more the work of Kublai, but he was never Chinese and saying that he became Chinese is also incorrect.

            Also the Mongols never assimilated; they were driven out by a peasant rebellion not by the Ming.

            2. As for Modern technology, not at all. But in Laowailand there isn’t a hang up about it compared to China. I mean people don’t call for the destruction of noodle bars and complain about how Sweet and Sour Pork is undermining our way of life.

            I’ll just answer the one about gunpowder, sure, you guys invented it, but it was Genghis Khan who rubbed his hands together and said.. ‘oooh, I can find a use for that.’

            3. Thanks for the offer. I’ll think about it.

          • Capt. WED

            ??why is my post not showing up? What is up with your servers?

            @@@@Chinggis was here

            refer to wiki for sources.

            Most of the things on that list of yours is completely wrong. I think Chinese people are really stupid & dumb…but you are just wrong, man.
            1. Beijing and Kunqi opera.
            Developed doing the late Yuan dynasty but it doesn’t really say it’s has anything to do with Mongolian customs. I can see how it may be influenced by you need to provide sources.

            2. Paper money

            Actually, banknotes came out of the Song dynasty, and the Yuan dynasty simply adopted it.

            3. Initially there was a fair taxation system and drought/disaster relief.

            Taxation system has been there forever, probably since the hunter and gathering day….you I need % of your hunt. Did you know Japan’s fedual taxation system is influenced by the Han dynasty system (either that or maybe Tang). So I’m not sure where you were going with this…

            4. The original Forbidden Palace –separation of rulers from the people – still in practice today.

            I don’t think this was originated by the Mongols. There has been “Forbidden” style palaces since the Qin and beyond.

            5. The establishment of Khanbaliq as the capital; known latter as Beijing and linking it to the rest of China buy building the Grand Canal.

            The part about the Grand Canal is simply false. The Grand Canal had a long development history, the Sui and Song dynasties did major work on the Grand Canal…. so not sure where you were going with this….

            6. Central government.

            Really? See Qin, Han, Spring & Autum, Warring States, hundred school of thought….

            7. The opening up of China through the Silk Road – trade inc the introduction to China of glass and sorghum.

            Silk Road is not a mongol thing…The Tang Dynasty had a big part in its development. Stuff was being traded on the silk road during Roman times. Way before the Yuan dynasty.

            8. The use of a navy for exploration – hence the little problem with that rock near Manila.

            Again, not originated by the Yuan at all. When Yuan tried to invade Japan, did they use Mongolian ships?

            9. The printing press.

            Nope. From Song and earlier.

            11. Eastern astronomy, mathematics, cartography and medicine.

            simply nope. Much earlier than Yuan…

            10. The first Chinese postal system through the use of a system of riders established by Genghis.

            This one yes. But I doubt there weren’t a system of communication before Genhis. Why? Roads and Canals, basically.

            11. The first ‘liberation’ of Tibet and what is now Xinjiang as part of the Mongol empire.

            Good to know. From now on I’m going to blame everything on the Mongolians then.

            12. Freedom of religious belief. oops

            Wrong again. See Tang dynasty. Also see the history of Islam in China.

            13. Passports – you guys love ‘em.

            Source please….Wikipedia doesn’t mention the Mongols.

          • wacky

            1. China is not a continuous civilisation.
            2. There is no such thing as 5,000 years of Chinese culture.
            3. China is and has been dramatically altered by foreign influence.
            5. Han and therefore Chinese is not a race – it’s an identity and therefore anyone can join.
            6. China is not strong.

            1. why not?
            2. why because constant outside influence and the change within? the ability to make foreign culture chinese instead of become foreign.
            3. yet the foreign culture does not make chinese foreign, chinese does not turn into non chinese like syria became arab
            4. where is no 4??
            5. han is not a race but an identity that is true, but identity attaches to culture and civilization without living culture or civilization of china there is no han people. are you saying that today han chinese should be called mongol or manchu? or hongkongers should be called british instead??
            6. explain?

          • dim mak

            That may have been the shittiest list ever Chinggis, not even a single one that doesn’t not have Chinese precedents. Are you just making stuff up on the spot? I knew you people were desperate, but that was just sad.

          • Small Bean

            It is so nice that “paper” was invented in China and that “papyrus” was invented 3000 years before it. Papyrus was used for 4000+ years, while paper for <2000.
            Paper, 100 ish CE
            Papyrus 3000 ish BCE
            Next time I will ask for my fapio on 纸莎草.

          • wacky

            @ rui
            ok i’m particularly interested by your comment
            the first one about chinese identity and mixing of blood, according to you who are the chinese?? according to every genetic study i have read most of the han chinese have o3 type of dna this prove that there are similarity between the chinese

            the second point about writing system
            do you think that not being able to read chinese or write chinese makes one not chinese?? i think there are 40 millions of overseas chinese and i guess a great number of them cant speak, read or write any chinese so are this person still part of chinese civilization or not? note that some still hold their old chinese custom such as celebrating chinese new year and qing ming festival ( i am talking chinese culture and civilization here not about being citizen of prc or roc)

            the third one is similar to the second one.

          • Chinggis was here

            @ Dim Mak What kind of argument is that? I’m not even going to bother to address it.

            @ wacky all your questions were addressed above, apart from no 5- that’s a typo. Try reading before reciting the party line.

            Capt. Wed I didn’t use Wiki, it was from memory. I’ve got a couple of books by packed away in a box. I’ll have to dig ‘em up. But not tonight: It’s drinking, football and chatting to cute Chinese girls.

            Also that list is not wrong, as you put it; I’ll confirm that tomorrow from credible sources.

            The argument, in my opinion, was that Dim Mak stated that foreign rule didn’t make the Chinese less Chinese and therefore was insignificant and that there was no major effect by China being conquered and occupied by the Mongols and Manchu.
            I called bullshit on that and gave examples of how Mongol rule, in fact, had major influence on shaping China and by extension shaped Chinese culture and customs. Obviously Kunqi Opera wasn’t a Mongolian custom; however, it was established by Kublai Khan – a Mongol ruler of China.

            Also you guys are still bringing out the parrot responses that you were forced to memorise during your government approved, glorious China but foreigners hurt our feelings bullshite history lessons at school:

            ‘The foreigners were always assimilated’. – not true
            ‘The Mongols and Manchu were Chinese, and weren’t important anyhow – not true
            The glorious Han/Chinese race – sorry, doesn’t exist.
            Continuous history – naw
            World’s oldest culture -5000 years – wrong again
            (insert country, island, area) belonged to China since ancient times- again bullshite.

            It’s always the same memorised responses and no matter what evidence I provide, the reply will be; but China did it first, you foreigners stole it, you like hurting China’s feelings, continuous, oldest culture etc. You just repeat the same rubbish over and over again until you actually start to believe it. Ever heard of Goebbels?

            What we have here, Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely), is called cognitive dissonance.

          • Capt. WED

            @chingis

            You are disagreeing with mainstream history. Are you too hip for that? I’m saying you just have to check up on your facts by skimming wikipedia. When you do that you see you have listed quite a few incorrect things. I think you are saying bullshit Dim Mak Mongol and Manchu rule had a lasting impact on China, I say no shit. But you seem to be saying they originated those things which is incorrect. And yes, according to mainstream history the Manchu did assimilate. I don’t really care about this stuff I’m just saying, I took western civ, not east asian history. All this is mainstream history, taught in the West from elementary school and onward.

            -Manchus assimilation
            The imperial house starting from Kangxi were all taught classical Chinese shit. At that point they really started to assimilate because they were ruling through the classical Chinese system of rites and all that other shit. Funnily Qianlong was the one that pissed off some western guy because he demanded proper rites. That same western guy wrote some bullshit about the Chinese being too stagnant with their rite bullshit.

            -Yuan
            Yuan and them were totally not liked by their other mongol brothers and cousins because they were deemded too fucking “Chinese”. Yuan dynasty only lasted 90 years so it’s debatable how much they were assimilated. Funnily tho Timor years later wanted to reconquer China for his Kublai bro…

            (check out Devil at the Doorstep for some Mongol history shit)

            -No “Han-Race”
            Which is totally true.

          • dim mak

            So I see Chinggis brings zero proof once again besides repeating the stuff he’s already been proven wrong on.

            You only gave a list of examples why you are woefully ignorant of Chinese history.

            Printing press? Central government? Paper money? Are you serious? A check on any of those subjects on Wiki would reveal an indisputable Chinese origin. Don’t trust the Wiki? Read the cites then. Or just use Google books. The fact that you need to claim vague, universal bullshit like trade, “exploration” and sending letters on horseback (I’m sure no one figured that out before the Mongols) just shows how little you have to go on. Why don’t you try showing that list to any historian, or any Chinese for that matter. Go out on the street and ask people how many notable Chinese things come from Mongols or Manchus. I can think of about 5. None of which are even in the list you pulled out your ass.

            Why should I waste my time arguing with someone who doesn’t have the slightest idea what he’s talking about?

          • wacky

            @ chingis

            the only point you make there is to confuse yourself between civilization and isolated culture
            civilization grows, influences and influenced by other civilization
            your argument about mongol and manchu made chinese no longer chinese are LAME.
            the single biggest foreign influence on china is buddhism, unless you can show us that by converting to buddhism chinese are no longer chinese the way that egyptian and syrian are arab, your argument holds no ground

            ‘The foreigners were always assimilated’. – not true
            not always but most of the time
            ‘The Mongols and Manchu were Chinese, and weren’t important anyhow – not trure
            not as improtant as the original chinese culture
            The glorious Han/Chinese race – sorry, doesn’t exist.
            all the genetic studies i read agree that chinese dna are 03 to the large extend suggesting the same origin

            Continuous history – naw
            naw naw
            World’s oldest culture -5000 years – wrong again
            (insert country, island, area) belonged to China since ancient times- again bullshite.
            yellow river valley the chinese the birthplace of chinese civilization are still chinese today, stop your bullshit or go eat shit instead

            It’s always the same memorised responses and no matter what evidence I provide, the reply will be; but China did it first, you foreigners stole it, you like hurting China’s feelings, continuous, oldest culture etc. You just repeat the same rubbish over and over again until you actually start to believe it. Ever heard of Goebbels

            show us any undeniable prove to your claim based on historical fact and backed by scientific or scholarly argument, if you can then eat your rubbish comments first, ever heard of parrot??

          • Rui

            Han-Chinese theory is same as Soviet people. During the Soviet Union people also started to name a new nation – soviet. It was build up of all kinds of nations in Soviet Union. If it could success one day we could have a new nation – turkish-georgian-russian-finno-ugric Great Nation Soviet. Quite the same is happening now in more democratical country than Soviet Union was – in Indonesia. They are building up a new identity, which is mixed of all kinds of small nations around Indonesian Archipelago.

            So, in China, if you establish let’s say Wu Republic around Shanghai and keep propagating Wu identity – no one in Wu Republic is saying he/she is Han-Chinese. Or difference between Tianjin 方言 and Beijing 方言 are same as between Swedish and Norwegian, or Czech and Slovak but people keep saying they are Han-Chinese. They can easily call themself Tianjinese and Beijinger if there exists two separate republics – Republic of Beijing and Republic of Tianjin. Don’t believe? Take the example of Korean Peninsula. More and more scholars are emphasizing the differences between North-Koreans (let’s call them 朝鲜人) and South-Koreans (let’s call them 韩国人). They used to be one nation, but because of all kinds of reasons there is going to be two different nations. Or how many Hong Kongers are saying they are Han-Chinese? Guess not many. Yes, they are Chinese, but for Chinese government even white Russian (俄罗斯族) minority in Xinjiang is Chinese. Or even Chingis Khan and Khubilai Khan were Chinese, although they belonged to different race (same with Manchu) than Han-Chinese.

            In Europe people are happy to be Slovak or Swedish and no one is emphasizing they are Europeans. History of Europe can also date back to very far, but so what? Never heard of anyone saying he is first European and then Italian. 5000 year long Han-China history is part of anti-foreign identity build-up propaganda, a political tool to unite so splitted country as China. It is fine, you are proud to be Han-Chinese, but you get it totally wrong if you think Europe doesn’t have something similar to put up. To demonize foreigners (no history small country barbarians) is part of Chinese government propaganda which has nothing to do with reality. Some Chinese get it, but some really don’t.

            So, how Chinese you are? Don’t know. If I come to China, speak Chinese, eat with chopsticks – am I Chinese? I guess no. But if Khubilai Khan is conquering China and learns Chinese and eats with chopsticks he is Chinese, right? He is part of the Han-Chinese historical identity chain. Kind of legitimity on which you are appealing Tibet has belonged to China already since Yuan dynasty. If I am not Chinese and Khubilai was also not Chinese so Tibet didn’t belong to China, but to Mongolia and China was just part of Mongolia. Same story with Qing dynasty.

            “Go to China right now and ask the average Han Chinese what non-Han tribe they may have came from and if they consider themselves a member of that tribe. Nobody knows, or cares, because we WANT to identify as Han.”

            Well, sorry to say, but two days ago I was eating with Naxi minority (纳西族) and he didn’t want to identity herself as Han. I have met the same attitude within Tibetans, Uighurs and some more minorities in Yunnan. Even Manchus still know they are Manchus and parents keep saying to children that they are Manchus and not Han. People don’t want to be Han, they are forced to be. Same as Lithuanians were forced to be Soviets and Dayaks are forced to be Indonesian. In Soviet times it was also said that there doesn’t exist Ukrainian or Belarussian identity and they have to be Russians or Soviets. Similarity with Han theory is quite obvious. I guess you know China learned minority politics from Soviet Union?

          • wacky

            you seems to get confuse with my question, i am not talking about chinese minorities i am asking about han chinese in china means the people who are categorized as han, not minorities, if minorities want to stay minorities that up to them to decide.
            then why there are a group of people categorized as HAN chinese by the government and there are ethnic minorities it is easier to talk about the concept of being chinese without this ethnic label, i can easily say khubilai was chinese then.
            i have met meet to many chinese from south east asia and yes they still refer to themselves ethnically as chinese (not han but tang ren which i think the more common term they use in the south) to me this shows a kind of identity.
            you said that people dont want to be han while taking ethnic minorities as example, that is kinda funny way of thinkin , minorities dont want to be han but han people are han not because they want it or not but because they are.

            i dont get the korean example as well, when 2 groups of people fighting each other they tend to search for an excuse to prove that they are different but the fact is north korea and south korea both are korean yes some people want to emphasize the differences but at the same time some who want peace can point to their korean ethnic identity and how simiar they are how they are belong to same culture and civilization and that could work and accepted. while when for example the han and tibetan start fighting they can not point the similarity of being han or tibetan or being the same people who belong to the same culture as a starting point.

            of course i too realize that there are difference between han live in guangdong and han live in hebei for instance but han in guangdong and han in hebei being two different people of 2 different ethnicity and culture and belong to 2 different civilization. your example of dayak people being forced to be indonesian, i dont really know abut that but dayak people belong to many different tribes but they united as dayak, of course they can point to the tribe difference as their identity as well but that dont mean that they are not dayak.
            the same with beijinger or shaingainese or hk er if they belonged to 3 different countries they could say they are people of beijing republic or shanghai republic but that is a political identity not ethnic one or cultural one.
            if ukraine was divided into pro russian east and anti russian west that does not mean that one of them is ukrainian no more.

          • dim mak

            Rui, your method in asking Han Chinese if they are Han Chinese is to go out and ask some people who are not Han Chinese? Does this really make sense to you? Your entire post conflates nationality with ethnicity.

            Sorry, but 方言 are just dialects. No serious linguist places them as separate languages the way they do in Europe or India. Second, most dialects share the majority of vocab and syntax, just not pronunciation. Most Mandarin speakers can understand a Cantonese newspaper after they get used to few things, and vice versa.

            >Or how many Hong Kongers are saying they are Han-Chinese?
            I take it you are not Chinese

          • Chinggis was here

            @ Dim Mak, ‘Woefully ignorant?’ Compared to who? You? And little gems like below:

            Quote Dim Mak:

            1. “The 4000+ history is boasted on the basis that China is the only civilization with a CONTINUOUS and more or less stable ethnic/cultural identity when compared to anywhere else in the world.”

            2. “Rule by foreigners has not made China any less Chinese.”

            3. “None of the places you listed have endured the way China has, if not drastically altered by foreign influences.”

            4. “Empires rise and fall, but China has always persevered.”

            You see Mr. Mak, I can’t see how it’s possible to have an argument with someone who believes the above? Where are your sources? You’re happy to act intellectual and call me out and I can provide references, but where is your proof to justify the above ramblings?

            1. You admit that China was conquered and ruled by both the Mongol and Manchu, then how can it be continuous? I’m not sure what dictionary you read, but continuous in my book means unbroken. I’d say being conquered and ruled, not once, but twice counts as being pretty broken.

            2. I have simply stated that rule by foreign rule has affected China, Hence the list of Mongol achievements under Genghis and while Kublai was in power.

            3. Again, you Say China has endured. Well so have, as an example, the Egyptians, Greeks and Tibetans.

            4. Again you say Empires rise and fall, and so has China – see number three above

            Quote Dim Mak:
            “Printing press? Central government? Paper money?”
            “Go out on the street and ask people how many notable Chinese things come from Mongols or Manchus. I can think of about 5.”

            Ask people on the street, yeah right!

            Chinggis asks, University Doctorate of Chinese History student Wu:

            CH. ‘Do you know that China was once conquered by the Mongols?’
            CH. ‘You don’t? It never happened? Really?’
            DS WU. ‘The man who said was insane and needs re-education, and even if it did happen the Mongols were Chinese and doesn’t count because it was only short.’
            CH. “Hmmm, I see.’

            You’re a genius Dim Mak!

            Cool, so from a list of 13 you agree with 5 and only mention three that are wrong? Outstanding!,

            1. Let’s start with central government and your notion that the Mongols had no effect on China shall we?

            I’d like to tee off with this little pearl from Hidehiro Okada:

            “The greatest legacy of the Mongol Empire bequeathed to the Chinese is the Chinese nation itself.”

            Simply stated, prior to the Mongol liberation of China from the Southern Song. China was divided into the Mongol controlled north and the Song controlled S-E, with the capital in Hangzhou. So you see, the Mongols were responsible for unifying China – including the kingdoms of the Tibetans, Manchu’s, Uighurs and Dali + a multitude of smaller kingdoms and tribes. You can read John Man’s, Kublai Khan and J Wetherford for confirmation of the above. So therefore for the first time in China’s history there was a central government based in Beijing.

            J Wetherford states that China had been a great civilisation but not a unified country and the educated elite had an unfulfilled dream of a united country with all people under a single government. J Wetherford continues:

            “Like no other prior leader, Khubilai Khan offered these educated the enticing opportunity to realise their nationalistic desire.”

            So, Mr, Mak, enter Genghis and Kublai and ta da – a unified country with central government. I’m sure that had some effect on present day China, considering the government of China is still in Beijing and administers the same areas the Mongols did?

            2. Paper money, sure, I’ll stand corrected on that.

            3. The first attempt of a moving type printing press was during the Yuan Dynasty. Feel free to consult John Man’s, Kublai Khan as a source.

            As for cartography, J Wetherford states that under Kublai, Chinese, Arab and Greek knowledge of geography was combined to produce “the most sophisticated cartography known.”

            As for your broad dismissal of cartography: Well perhaps you should complain to the Chinese government? You see I mentioned that because while watching that balanced, soft power station called CCTV News a few weeks ago and I noticed the government announcement that the rock near Manilla has been an integral part of Chinese sovereignty since ancient times and was first drawn on maps in the… wait for it.. Yuan Dynasty. As for a source – consult the PRC government website.

            I don’t see why you hate postal systems so much. Is it because information can’t be controlled? Perhaps you had a bad experience with a horse once? I used the facts about Genghis and the relay stations to show that the Mongols introduced an INTERNATIONAL, organised mail delivery system; it’s hardly comparable to a Chinse peasant running from the capital of Hangzhou to Suzhou with a decree from the emperor.

            Same goes for the Grand Canal, sure there was a stream there that could handle a rowboat, but it was Kublai who made it ‘Grand’ and large enough to support the supplies needed to sustain the new capital of a new unified China. Beijing.

            Same as for the Silk Road – As J Man says, Genghis made it safe and encouraged trade and exchange of knowledge. Prior to that, Mr. Mak, it was dangerous and intermittent at best, and I never realised that previous to the Mongols, Chinese Emperors traded with the Europeans and had envoys that made it to English and French courts? Fell free to consult with Mr. Wetherford’s book to confirm the above too. You mentioned ‘Chinese’ traded directly with the Romans, any credible proof for that? I doubt the Parthians would’ve been too happy about that little arrangement.

            Then you go for the tried and tested and rebuked but Kublai was Chinese and the Mongol Dynasty didn’t last long and didn’t count. Well that’s nothing new and has been used by Chinese academics much more knowledgeable than yourself – they failed and so have you.

            I told you I’m not familiar with the Manchu, but you still bring it up and say they were assimilated. I presume that’s why all Chinese men had Manchu pigtails and the Chinese women wore the Manchu Qi Pao?

            In future could you reply using a few points, it’s a bit convoluted replying to a sprawl of joined together dot points, combined with childish insults and ending with the brilliant conclusion of ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about.’ However, I fear, in your case, I’m simply putting lipstick on a pig.

            ‘Start with Google books.’ What are you some kind of mentally-deranged comedian? How about you start with Google books? You’re using Wikipedia as a source. Fuck me. As for as you so eloquently put it, ‘pull out my arse’. Well, unfortunately for you, I’m not that intelligent, so I’ve obviously read it somewhere – maybe on Wikipedia?

            Let me finish with a quote by John Man:

            “One man living in Mongolia in the twelfth Century had scattered his genetic material across half of Eurasia, with the result that that is all shared by one in two hundred men living today.”

            So you see Dim Mak the Mongol, the Mongol legacy lives on and you should embrace your Mongol heritage rather be dismissive of it.

            Dim Mak the Mongol, feel free to start with some of the references/bibliography I used:

            Hidehiro Okada cited by Reuven Amitai-Preiss, David Morgan. 1999. The Mongol Empire and its legacy, BRILL, 1999.

            Man, J., 2007. Kublai Khan. Bantam.

            Man, J., 2004. Genghis Khan: Life, Death, and Resurrection. Thomas Dunne Books.

            Weatherford, J. M., 2004. Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world, Crown, The University of Michigan.

          • Chinggis was here

            @ Capt WED. The answer is Yes! I don’t see anything to disagree about with what you said. Some of that drivel I wrote above was addressed to you regarding the Manchu. My apologies (as a form of politeness) to Dim Mak.

            Of course I don’t agree with parts of mainstream history, for example, I believe Columbus was a genocidal, slave-trader and hardly the hero he’s made out to be. I also don’t believe the Americans won the war in Europe. I agree with Niall Fergusson when he says WW2 started in 1937 when the Japanese invaded China, not in 1939 and certainly not in Nov. 1941.

            As for too Chinese, well Kublai may have been viewed that way by Mongols in the Khanates, but he was still Mongol. It’s not like he declared I’m Chinese now. If you check out Wetherford and Man it’ll make more sense. You just need to look at the hierarchy system in the Yuan Dynasty. If he considered himself Chinese, why were the Song Chinese on the bottom of the hierarchy and considered the lowest of the low?

          • Chinggis was here

            @ wacky.
            I hardly consider copying and pasting an entire post of mine then adding two sentences of troll a valid reply.

            Try this:

            Quote wacky:

            “your argument about mongol and manchu made chinese no longer chinese are LAME.”

            I never said that.

            Quote wacky:

            “not as improtant as the original chinese culture.”

            Oh you mean the original Chinese culture where the men walk around with their fingers up their noses, spitting on the ground and pissing in the street? Yeah, that’s still going strong.

            “yellow river valley the chinese the birthplace of chinese civilization are still chinese today, stop your bullshit or go eat shit instead”

            Charming, I don’t give two fucks about the birthplace of Chinese culture or the Peking man or whatever other crap your Chinese academics, quote Dim Mak, ‘pull out their arses’. It’s irrelevant because China, as such, was conquered and occupied and therefore it is not a continuous civilisation and in fact is far behind the Egyptians, Indians and the Greeks. The English, Americans and even the Australians can claim ‘longer continuous civilisation” than the Chinese.

            Hence the list as an example of the effects the Mongol liberators had on China’s development and Chinese culture.

            Quote wacky:
            “show us any undeniable prove to your claim based on historical fact and backed by scientific or scholarly argument, if you can then eat your rubbish comments first, ever heard of parrot??”

            How about undeniable proof you’re a fucking idiot? I think the above quote from you undeniably confirms it.

            Go and watch some Manchu Opera, sorry, I meant Beijing Opera to help you calm down.

            Ps, the Chinese didn’t have envoys in Europe prior to the Mongols, it was poor sarcasm. I don’t want to get your hopes up.

            PPs, get a blood test to see how much Mongol you have in you.

          • mr. wiener

            A most entertaining and long thread. My congrats to all who have posted. Bragging rights go to Chingis at present, but the game is still afoot :)

          • Chinggis was here

            Yeah, well I haven’t finished with wacky yet. Part of the problem, Mr. wacky is that the Chinese government has standard lines that aren’t allowed to be questioned and are taught in schools and universities across the country.

            For example:

            1. 5,000 years of continuous history/ world’s oldest culture.

            2. The Mongols and Manchu were really Chinese or they assimilated or they don’t count.

            3. (insert area, name, island) has been part of China since ancient times.

            4. Hurt Chinese people’s feelings.

            5. Unprovoked aggression by (insert country).

            6. The peaceful/peace-loving rise of China.

            7. Interfering in China’s internal affairs.

            So once you start questioning these ‘parroted’ statements (thanks for that Mr. wacky) it becomes obvious they are all lies and rubbish.

            It starts with the ‘continuous 5000 years of history and world’s oldest culture’ mantra. I’ve shown that China doesn’t have a continuous history, the Mongols weren’t assimilated and I’m starting the seriously doubt the Manchu were too. Once the foundation is broken the rest of the Chinese government approved crap comes tumbling down.

            The Egyptians were building stone pyramids around 2,500 bc and the future Han master race were still in their Neolithic period and playing with stone tools.

            As for’ Chinese academics’, Mr. wacky, how the fuck are you supposed take anything they say seriously? Any academic whose findings must conform to government approved history isn’t an academic; he/she is a hack.

            I mean the consequences of an ‘academic’ here questioning the government line could result in he/she being arrested, ostracised and labelled hanjian; this myth of pure Han race is a lie too. You don’t see John Pilger or Noam Chomsky sent to jail and have cattle prods shoved up their arses. As for re-education camps, well you could ask Melissa Chan about that, oops my mistake, she hurt the feelings of Chinese people for reporting about that and wasn’t allowed to stay. She’s called hanjian and a bitch and Yang Rui is portrayed as some kind of national hero: now that is fucked up.

            Bash ‘the 5,000 years of continuous culture’ up your indoctrinated, brain-washed arse! Now I’m finished.

          • dim mak

            So nothing substantial, just as I thought.

            The more you grasp at straws the more it becomes clear you don’t have any valid arguments.

            1. Rule by foreigners has NOT made China any less Chinese. We retain our native culture, language, and ethnic identity even after all this time. Where are those foreigners now? Tiny minorities awaiting assimilation while we’re the largest ethnic group in the world. Do you have a real argument besides “NO YOU’RE WRONG!1!”?

            2. What precious little influence foreigners have had on China is completely overwhelmed by the vast amount of Chinese culture and customs, as you have shown in your meager list.

            3. China has endured in ways far more definitive than the Greeks or Egyptians. One, China has always been a consistent superpower. Two, China has maintained its ancient customs and lineage far better than anywhere else. Egyptians can’t even decide if they’re Pharaonic or Arab. Greek culture and religion is completely disconnected from classical Greece. China is not.

            4. China has a longer and more consistent imperial history than any other civilization, civil wars included.

            >Tell Chinese people and Chinese students they don’t know their own culture
            Yeah, class act

            ————–

            “The unification of China under the power of the Qin state in 221 BCE initiated 21 centuries of centralized imperial government over eight major dynasties.”
            “….the Qin set the pattern for central rule in China.”
            “The Qin reorganized the empire… with all levels ultimately accountable to the central government”

            LaFleur, Robert – China: A Global Studies Handbook, pg 21.

            >b-b-but the Mongol’s central government was slightly different!
            Sums up about every single one of your points. Lets continue, shall we?

            ————–

            “However, the invention of movable characters came earlier in China than in Europe… The first allusion to the use of movable type in China occurs in a collection of notes mostly concerned with the history of science and technology… by Shen Kua.. which appeared in 1086.”

            “…Nong shu, published in 1313, the use of movable tin characters…”

            Gernet, Jacques – A History of Chinese Civilization, pg 335.

            >Existing technology improved under a Mongol ruler! Credit must go to Mongolians!
            Aren’t you a clever one? If I was an idiot, that fallacy may have slipped by.

            ————–

            “The fourth means of delivering correspondence in Chu-yen was termed i-yu-hsing… The mail in the system was delivered mostly by mounted carriers through the postal stations.”

            Chang, Chun-Shu – The rise of the Chinese Empire, Frontier, Immigration and Empire in Han China, pg 162.

            >But the Mongols delivered mail in a very special way! On horses! China had no international contact before the Mongols!

            ————–

            “…Emperor Sui Yangdi continued the process, and the 1,400 mile long Grand Canal… was completed under his reign. The new canal faciliated the shipment of grain and other commodities… also used the canal as an imperial highway for inspecting his empire and dispatching troops.”

            Duiker, William & Spielvogel, Jackson – The Essential World History Volume 1: To 1800, pg 237.

            Sound like a little stream to you?

            >They made workers divert the canal to suit a different capital! Mongol innovation!

            ————–

            >The Mongols didn’t last long and had little effect on Chinese identity, population, language, or customs
            Precisely right. Where’s your argument?

            >Yuan dynasty maps showing Chinese ownership of some island means China never had maps until the Mongols came and invented cartography for us
            Damn, that’s some solid logic.

            >The Mongols made the roads safe! No culture has ever thought of that! What a unique foreign idea!
            With the help of many Chinese soldiers, no doubt.

            >Qipao
            Yup, Manchurian. Strange how you couldn’t point out the most obvious when you compiled your list, huh?

            >Mongols had no effect on China
            Strawman much?

            >Mongols mixed genes with Chinese so China is not Chinese anymore because being Chinese means being pure blooded
            Yes, because I wasn’t saying the opposite this whole time. Strawman much?

            >Kublai was Chinese
            Who here is saying that, except you? Strawman much?

            >You mentioned ‘Chinese’ traded directly with the Romans
            No, I didn’t. Strawman much?

            Please, embarass yourself some more.

          • Capt. WED

            This is simply following up on what I wrote above. This is not related to you and Dim Mak’s fight

            Chinggis said–
            <<>>

            The common understanding of “continuous” here is the continuity of “Chinese styled” culture, custom and feudal political systems. The political system that is the Confucian styled feudal meritocracy. You are redefining the normal understanding of that label, thus it becomes a straw man argument. For example, Kublai adopted Chinese political and cultural models. If you want to argue against that go ahead.

            Chinggis said–
            <<>>

            Of course. However the way you stated #1, #2 is inconsistent with #1. Also as I have pointed out the list you made contain some factual errors.

            Chinggis said–
            <<>>

            If you disagree with the common definition (you seem to disagree) then no. The common definition is the continuation of a set of custom, political ideas, and culture without major disruption from within and without. Is PRC China a continuation of the same shit in the Tang Dynasty. Hell no. Not in the sense where one can argue that during the Qing era a substantial number of customs and political ideas are a continuation of stuff from Tang (or course evolved upon over the years; but on the other hand this is also commonly referred to as the stagnation/stasis part of China; you can’t have it both ways). And so on…. this is what people mean by continuous. On the other hand can you do the same argument with Ottoman Greece and Hellenic Greece? That’s probably harder to do (Greek contribution to western civilization not withstanding but you see what I’m saying it’s not exactly a one to one comparison). That’s what people mean by continuous. Well I guess I’m just not articulate enough to make a convincing argument. but you definitely haven’t made a convincing argument either against this definition of “continuous”, IMHO. One thing I do agree with you this “5000 years” continuous business is horsehit.

            Chinggis said —
            <<Chinggis asks, University Doctorate of Chinese History student >Wu:
            >>>
            Totally irrelevant. Some people are stupid and trolling. Also can’t confirm this is in fact something happened for real. Plus I can counter with my own examples of what people say.

            Chinggis said–
            <<>>

            Sure, one can say that without any problems, no disagreement there.

            Chinggis said…
            <<>>

            Prior to “Southern” Song the Song already lost northern part of it’s territory to the Jin. That was simply the state of play at the point of Mongol invasion. Also prior to the Jin invasion Song Dynasty had a little bit less territory than Hang dyantasy and a lot less than Tang Dynasty. But yes I agree Yuan Dynasty set a precedent so later dynasties can claim those places as part of China.

            Chinggis wrote:
            <<>>

            I think you are saying he’s the one who set it up so for the first time the actual “unfied China” idea has reached it’s full potential. But I don’t see enough proof that some prior dyansty (tang for example) didn’t have this central government thing (this follows directly from what you said about central governments). In that same book he mentions that he followed the Chinese system, in order to make himself seem more legit than the Song dynasty, the same dynasty that has been in decline for many years prior since the invasion of Jin (hell that makes sense since they can lost the northern part of their country to Jin lol). But that doesn’t prove to me that at ALL TIME in prior dynasties the central authority was weak (problems with local lords). Again, since Kublai was doing this, making himself looking more legit, you can argue that it’s based on prior precedents. He may have contributed and evolved, but he did not come up with the concept of a central government/central rule.

            ….
            shit I need to wrap this up….

            also I guess I’m butthurt about Kublai dissing the Chinese on the totem pool. But he employed many Chinese advisors when establishing his rule over China, and it’s only after some of them revolted that he started dissing Chinese.

            Also food for thought, it took 30 years to take China. THis is during a period where the full might of the empire was at his disposal (i.e. the one that streches all the way west). Islamic civilization at that point was no joke man. they were the shit.

          • Capt. WED

            alright @chinggis

            I’m reading that “Genghis Khan And The Making Of The Modern World” right it definitely contain a lot of interesting tidbits. I mean I always heard that Kubilai did a bunch of interesting things, so I’m not refuting that. Paraphrasing the book the state culture that he took all the things from Chinese that he found practical and improved upon that (injecting new things for example) while rejecting some aspects like Confucian rites. All the while trying to impress upon the populace that he was the ideal Chinese “king”, that he had the mandate of heaven. But some of the stuff you mentioned earlier like the paper money thing was not introduced by him. Maybe that was my misunderstand that you meant he introduced those things instead of evolving them.

            So no I”m not changing my positions although I find the book interesting.

          • Sad Sad Sad

            This entire thread is pitiful. Just a variation of my penis is bigger than your penis. Holy fuck. And this is what passes for progress?

          • Chinggis was here

            @ SadSadSad. thanks for that wonderful input. Not big on cockfighting myself, however, I think progress is being made. Would you care to share your opinion or continue to troll from the sidelines?

          • Chinggis was here

            Yeah, I’m not much for substance.

            1. No your wrong! It doesn’t matter where they are now: the Mongol and Manchu had an effect on Chinese culture. So now do the Japanese, Americans, Taiwanese and Koreans. How much Ancient Chinese culture is left? What does ethnic mean? Han?
            We’ve already agreed there is no such thing as a Han Race. Native culture? Now you’re taking the piss.

            2. That’s your opinion. Personally, I glad to hear you are against the Chinese nation Kunqu and Beijing Opera; however the Qipao is pretty cute.

            3.. No it hasn’t.

            Two, What ancient customs? Kunqu Opera?

            4. No it doesn’t it was invaded and occupied twice.

            >Tell Chinese people and Chinese students they don’t know their own culture

            I said history and they don’t; they know the official Chinese government approved version of Chinese history. Thanks, I’m not called class often.

            “The unification of China under the power of the Qin state in 221 BCE initiated 21 centuries of centralized imperial government over eight major dynasties.”

            Excellent! So Chinese culture isn’t continuous for 5000 years? I’ll go with the Qin from 2100 years ago. (it’s certainly better than some mythical Yellow Emperor) We agree then? Well, apart from the two invasions by the Mongols and Manchus: you just going to say they didn’t happen or weren’t important or didn’t count or they were really just Chinese too?

            I don’t think I’m clever, thanks for the compliment.

            Again with the horses, was it a painful experience for you?

            >They made workers divert the canal to suit a different capital! Mongol innovation!
            So we agree. Beijing was a Mongol capital and Kublai made the Grand Cana to supply the city?

            Precisely right. Where’s your argument? Um, I never said that.
            Or say that or that.

            Ooh the Manchu – Because the Manchu aren’t Mongol and that reply was to captWED about assimilation.

            >Mongols had no effect on China
            I never said that the Mongols had no effect on China.

            >Mongols mixed genes with Chinese so China is not Chinese anymore because being Chinese means being pure blooded
            Yes, because I wasn’t saying the opposite this whole time. Strawman much?

            I don’t know why you brought that up again? We agreed before and I’m still considering your intriguing offer of joining the glorious Han master nationality.

            >Kublai was Chinese. Who here is saying that, except you?
            I never said that. It was in reply to CaptWed or wacky because someone was going to say it.

            >You mentioned ‘Chinese’ traded directly with the Romans.
            That was in reply to CaptWED

            Please, embarass yourself some more.

            Ok.

            See, we are making progress. Could you add some numbers next time? And keep it down to say four or five major points? And please get your quotes right – You’ve misquoted me with red herrings and some of those replies weren’t to you – my bad.

          • Dr SUN

            I think many here underestimate the Han and their strengths.
            Which are their abilities to survive great hardships, by selling each other out to which ever non Han has just conquered them and is now breeding their women, ruling them and injecting new life into a stagnant confucian culture and weak gene pool.
            The continuous historical corruption of both officials and generals has ensured that both wealth and political power remains with those least suited for either.
            Isolating the minority nationalities in autonomous regions, calling them Chinese, even most don’t care about being Chinese, even speak mandarin or they consider it a second language, which has little relevance in their daily life. I call this this the Han’s “one eye closed ability” your Chinese when it suites us, your not when it doesn’t.
            Their ability for reverse assimilation anything they take from foreigners is assimilated into Han Culture any taken is Han culture assimilating others.
            It’s brilliant

          • dim mak

            So you really don’t have any arguments. Wanna rehash some more? Maybe come up with another list so we can dismantle it?

            1. The effect they had was barely noticeable, ergo Chinese culture and identity stays strong. Yes, ethnic Han means Han. Ethnicity != race. But surely you knew that and aren’t just trying to conflate the two to salvage your position?

            2. My opinion, and also the fact that neither you or anyone else has shown me how much foreign influence there is compared to native culture.

            3. What a compelling rationale, care to state some facts next time?

            4. Change in leadership isn’t a measure of a civilization’s continuity, clinging onto that fringe definition only shows everyone you don’t really have an argument.

            >Tell Chinese people they don’t know their own history
            Class act

            >5000
            Strawman much?

            >It’s only culture if unified under a central government
            Surely, no one but the very desperate would make such a fallacious claim

            Indeed, Chinese people redirecting a canal engineered and built by Chinese shows little if any influence from the Mongols.

            >I never said that the Mongols had no effect on China
            No, you were just implying I did so you can attack it as a strawman. Good effort trying to turn it around though.

            >Bringing up mixed Mongol blood
            I don’t know, why did you bring it up the first place? Could it be you wanted to set up another strawman so you can attack me for something I never claimed? Or was it poor reading comprehension? Maybe both?

            ————-

            “Inheritors of the world’s oldest continuous civilization, the Chinese can be justly proud of their achievements.”

            Dryer, June T. – China’s Political System: Modernization and Tradition, pg 1.

            ————-

            “China is home to what is likely the longest continuous civilization in the world.”

            Pelleschi, Andrea – China. pg 41.

            ————-

            “China not only has an ancient civilization; it also has, despite many ethnic groups, a continuous line of transmission from its ancient civilization to the present. This makes it unique in the development of world civilization.”

            Chang, K., Xu, P, Allan, S., Lu, L. – The Formation of Chinese Civilization, An Archaeological Perspective, pg.8. Yale UP.

            ————-

            “…China, the valleys of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River were the cradles of the oldest continuous civilization in world history.”

            Adler, P., Pouwels, R. – World Civilizations, pg.13

            ————-

            “But peoples and languages have changed out of all recognition in those other centers of early civilization. Chinese civilization, by contrast, has remained recognizably the same in essentials and is thus the oldest, continuous, homogenous, major culture in the world today.”

            Morton, William Scott & Lewis, Charlton – China: Its History and Culture, pg 2.

            ————-

            “China boasts the oldest continuous civilization in the world and has been a major power for most of its history.”

            Pumphrey, Carolyn W. – The Rise of China in Asia, pg 1.

            ————-

            “Whereas the ancient Egyptian civilization has long since disappeared, and likewise those of Mesopotamia and the Indus, by contrast China’s civilization and continued uninterrupted. Today China can boast the oldest continuous civilization…”

            Stavrianos, Leften S. – The World to 1500: A Global History, pg 57.

            ————-

            “The oldest continuous civilization existing in the world today is that of China.”

            Munsterberg, Hugo – A Short History of Chinese Art, pg 1.

            ————-

            “China’s long and rich history as the world’s oldest continuous civilization has affected its foreign relations in various ways. For centuries, the Chinese empire enjoyed basically unchallenged greatness and self-sufficiency.”

            Sutter, Robert. & Choi, Seong-Eun – Shaping China’s Future in World Affairs, pg 11.

            ————-

            Oh will you look at that.

            There’s academic discussion, then there’s jackass talking shit about on topics he doesn’t know anything about. See: You. I could have a more interesting debate on foreign influence in China with myself. At least I can identify the things that are actually foreign.

            I’m done wasting time on you. Get the fuck out.

          • wacky

            @ chingis yes you said that since chinese was also influenced by mongol and manchu then chinese are not the longest civilization, if you can not do better than
            I NEVER SAID THAT, then dont reply, show me how mongol and manchu culture make chinese less chinese and not the other way around.

            Oh you mean the original Chinese culture where the men walk around with their fingers up their noses, spitting on the ground and pissing in the street? Yeah, that’s still going strong.

            make better argument about culture or at leas show me that you are not a retard

            Charming, I don’t give two fucks about the birthplace of Chinese culture or the Peking man or whatever other crap your Chinese academics,
            that is because crap is the only thing you have, you asked me to show you any place in the world that has always been chinese, didnt you??””?:??
            if you can show me that chinese civilization died when did it die? show me?? when??? you have not responded yet to my point about buddhism, then keep coming back with your lame old point. SHOW ME THE PROVE THAT BEING CONQUERED MADE CHINESE LESS CHINESE, UNTIL YOU SHOW ME THAT BEING RULED BY THE MONGOL MAKE THE WHOLE CHINA A GOAT HERDING CULTURE, dont come back with old same argument you make YOU HAVE RESPONDED NOTHING TO THE POINT I MAKE

            Hence the list as an example of the effects the Mongol liberators had on China’s development and Chinese culture.

            and that what made chinese not chinese??? all you show are some development during the mongol era which most are just development of earlier chinese invention, not at all make chinese culture and civilization discontinue..

            How about undeniable proof you’re a fucking idiot? I think the above quote from you undeniably confirms it.
            yes keep coming back with the same point without strong evidence show that your are undeniable retarded idiot
            Go and watch some Manchu Opera, sorry, I meant Beijing Opera to help you calm down.
            and beijing opera shows that chinese are no longer chinese?? instead become part of manchu culture????explain??

            Ps, the Chinese didn’t have envoys in Europe prior to the Mongols, it was poor sarcasm. I don’t want to get your hopes up.
            so what? having chinese envoy in europe making chinese less chinese???? what the point you are making?? you are an idiot???

            PPs, get a blood test to see how much Mongol you have in you.
            really?? and that make me less chinese culturally??? how??? i am not a goat herder

          • wacky

            @ chingis

            1. You admit that China was conquered and ruled by both the Mongol and Manchu, then how can it be continuous?

            it seems to be your main point to show that china is not a continuous civilization, however you has not been able to show us any single prove that chinese civilization was discontinued by the yuan dynasty??
            show us that
            1. during the yuan dynasty chinese abandoned chinese traditional culture and adopted mongolian culture
            2. chinese stopped using chinese name and used mongolian style name instead
            3. chinese abandoned chinese religion and converted to mongolian religion
            5. chinese way of living changed from agricultural and commercial one to goat herding nomadic one

            2. I have simply stated that rule by foreign rule has affected China, Hence the list of Mongol achievements under Genghis and while Kublai was in power.

            this one followed by your statement that mongol united china.

            – show us first that those mongol achievement served the sake of mongolian culture and undermined chinese culture, so far what you have shown are the prove that chinese culture advance during the mongol period, if you are arguing that chinese culture and civilization was discontinued means cut by the mongol at least prove to us that the mongol rulers worked against the development of chinese culture.
            example show us that kunqu opera was the only opera left in china, that kunqu opera mainly tell the story of how mongol lived and was used to promote mongolian culture to the chinese, that kunqu opera was the only opera or entertainment allowed during the mongol and the other kind of opera and entertainment was banned because it was against mongolian ruler, if you cant then admit that kunqu opera was just another kind of art form or entertainment which served the sake of chinese culture and not mongolian one.

            argument that chinese was unified by the mongol therefore discontinued is the lamest of all, the idea of china as one nation was there before it was unified by the qin emperor, means that the idea of unified china has been there before the mongolian, the idea of unified china is what make china chinese. you can bring the idea that china was never an unified country before the mongolian??? that it did not unify during the han tang or song dynasty before.

            your other argument was as lame as you are.
            grand canal was enlarged by the mongol but how does that means that chinese culture was discontinued by it???? can you at least show me that grand canal had a purpose to undermine chinese culture and not merely serve for economic sake???

            printing was invented during the tang dynasty, please show me that during the mongolian yuan period printing was used to promote mongolian script and undermined chinese one?? if not the only thing you can show is that during the yuan dynasty chinese culture was not only not discontinued but also flourish.

            your other argument about mongol in europe etc was irrelevant, we are talking about chinese culture in china and that has nothing to do with mongolian in europe unless you are an idiot with twisted logic and to hard for you to understand that this has nothing to do with chinese civilization

          • Chinggis was here

            @wacky

            1. Wacky, stop misquoting me. I said it’s not possible for China to be a continuous civilisation because China was invaded and occupied twice by other foreign civilisations. One a civilisation is invaded and occupied it can no longer be continuous.

            What Chinese culture? Show me one piece of ‘Chinese’ culture from the mythical Yellow Emperor that continues today?

            Writing perhaps?
            Language?
            Perhaps some magnificent structures like Stonehenge or the Pyramids or the Parthenon?
            Some event that happened at around 3000 BC that can be called ‘Chinese”?

            Take your time.

            How about you just keep repeating the same lie over and over again..

            “5000 years continuous civilisation.” “5000 years continuous civilisation.” “5000 years continuous civilisation.” “5000 years continuous civilisation.” “5000 years continuous civilisation.” “ 5000 years continuous civilisation.”

            2. When you answer the above, explain to me what you mean by:
            “MADE CHINESE LESS CHINESE”
            What is Chinese, wacky? Is it a feeling or something a belief from the last 50 years of Maoist education? I’m quite confused here. Can you give me an example of ‘Chinese” from 5,000 years ago?

            3. “you have not responded yet to my point about buddhism”
            Because I mistakenly presumed it was obvious. Buddhism wasn’t Chinese, wacky, Buddhism originated in India. So you saying Buddhism had an effect on Chinese culture is what we call in Laowailand an own goal, and further proof you’re an ignorant fuckwit.

            4.Quote wacky:
            “MONGOL MAKE THE WHOLE CHINA A GOAT HERDING CULTURE”

            And again:
            “i am not a goat herder.”

            And there we have it Ladies and Gentleman. The true face of Chinese nationalism emerges. All those that are not the superior Chinese race are now ‘goat herders’, barbarians or inferior if you like. Perhaps the word you are looking for wacky is ‘Untermensch’?

            Well, it your country that was invaded and conquered by ‘goat herders’. I can see nothing in the belief of Han racial superiority over the barbarian laowai has changed, wacky.

            I also consider it quite arrogant to dismiss the makers of the greatest land empire in the history of the world as ‘goat herders’. No wonder you kept getting invaded every time your neighbours were bored.

            5. “all you show are some development during the mongol era which most are just development of earlier chinese invention, not at all make chinese culture and civilization discontinue..”

            How about the establishment of the future Chinese nation, by Kublai Kahn, based in Beijing. I’d now add the liberation and occupation of your country from the nationalist, racist Han by ‘goat herders‘would count as ‘discontinue.’

            5. Umm.. the envoys were representing the Mongol Empire.

            6. PPs, get a blood test to see how much Mongol you have in you.
            Wacky: “really?? and that make me less chinese culturally??? how??? i am not a goat herder”

            You sure? Do you have the test results back yet?

          • Chinggis was here

            @ dim mak

            You haven’t dismantled anything. All you’ve been doing is repeating the same memorised, indoctrinated drivel.

            1. Chinese culture stays strong? Ethinicity = race. Dim mak, you’ve changed your stance. I’m very disappointed.

            2. The Mongols founded a NEW nation and made China what it is today because the borders of China today are basically the same as during the Yuan and Kublai brought all those different ethnic groups under the control of a central government based in the capital of what would be Beijing.

            3. Sure, If I knew what you’re rambling about. All I could see was nationalistic drivel, which I ignored.

            4. How about the change of a countries leadership by a liberating foreign power, wouldn’t that be a discontinuation?

            Dim Mak, again I’m very disappointed. We had made such great progress in agreeing about Chinese civilisation started around 200 bc and there is no such thing as a Han race, now you go and change your mind again.

            Give me an example of continuous “Chinese” civilisation (I mean even calling it a civilisation is a joke – all those different languages, kingdoms and tribes, different types of writing). Just one example from the magical Yellow Emperor that is still visible today? Even the Bible and Homer (not Simpson) are more credible than that myth.
            Language?
            Writing?
            Construction?
            Event?
            Tell me there’s something…

            I state my position again: The peaceful, harmonious Mongol liberation of what would one day become China from the Jurchen and barbarous, corrupt, incompetent Southern Song (the future Han master race) had an effect on future Chinese culture.

            Therefore I stand by my original 6 points:
            1. China is not a continuous civilisation.
            2. There is no such thing as 5,000 years of Chinese culture.
            3. China is and has been dramatically altered by foreign influence.
            5. Han and therefore Chinese is not a race – it’s an identity and therefore anyone can join.
            6. China is not strong.

            You have done nothing to prove the above incorrect. And we haven’t even started with the Manchu, Mao and the Cultural Revolution and you and wacky’s current fascination with Japanese gay porn… Yeah, like Japanese porn hasn’t affected Chinese culture..

            See, there you go getting all abusive. You and wacky can have a debate about who loves China more in your, I love china session while giving each other reach-a-rounds while screaming continuous peaceful rise.

            “Ooh yeah, wacky, harder. I LOVE CHINA”
            “Do you love China too?”” Ooh Dim Mak, tell me again.. pleaseeee…”
            “Yeah and it is a longer and continuous love”
            “ Really..OOOH… I feel the harmony coming.”
            “Tell me that fairy-tale about the magic Yellow Emperor again.”
            “Was it a peaceful rise for you? “
            “Yeah, even though it’s small, it was peaceful and never hurt me.”
            “Have we been part of each other since ancient times?”
            “Yeas, we must we are both Han.”
            “If only the laowai understood how special our peaceful, harmonious love is, but don’t worry, one day we’ll be strong again. OOHHHHHHHHHH…”.

            (apologies to YesYesYes for the blatant, poor quality plagiarism)

            But who am I to judge what you get up to in your man-boy, romping sessions. I mean, I’m not judgemental and as far as I’m concerned if two Chinese nationalists want to please each other analy, orally or whatever way you fenqing manboys do it, far be it from me to interfere in your internal affairs.

          • Chinggis was here

            @ wacky. I don’t use the number 4: it’s unlucky because it sounds like death. OOOOOOOH

          • dim mak

            HAHA OH WOW

            Lemme sum up Chinggis for all future readers:

            >Gets butthurt about something he knows nothing of
            >Makes up retarded claims
            >Gets destroyed by citations
            >Too scared to raise any new points after being humiliated
            >Repeat disproven claims ad nauseum
            >Make up stuff the other guy never said
            >Can’t refute any quoted sources
            >Resorts to calling people gay

            Don’t take my word for it, just read the ‘debate’ above

            If this was Wikipedia I would’ve destroyed his standing so bad no one in the community would ever take him seriously on any China topic again. I suggest we treat him the same here.

          • wacky

            wrong again, occupation without the fundamental changing of culture can be said as discontinued you have been unable to prove your point here SHOW ME THAT THE CHINESE CIVILIZATION HAD HAD A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE AFTER MONGOL DYNASTY.

            5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization 5000 year of continuous civilization

            yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

            and yes the history and historical writing, as well as historiography
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_history
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_historiography#History_of_Chinese_historians
            Writing perhaps?
            Language?
            bot yes with development of course

            2. When you answer the above, explain to me what you mean by:
            “MADE CHINESE LESS CHINESE”
            1. mongol invasion does not make chinese a goat herding people
            2. chinese did not abandoned chinese script in favor of mongolian script
            3. chinese were not speaking mongolian then and are not now
            4. chinese called themselves chinese not monggolian

            3. “you have not responded yet to my point about buddhism”
            stupid ignorant buddhism came from india and buddhism did not make chinese indian, prove to me that buddhism the only foreign culture to influence china make chinese indian
            the way hinduism and buddhism influence south east asia
            prove to me that buddhism has made chinese adopt pali or sanskrit text like in south east asia. prove to me that buddism did not become chinese religion show me how widespread indian ancient temple with stupa like those in cambodia or in java

            And there we have it Ladies and Gentleman. The true face of Chinese nationalism emerges.
            whatever, inability to prove anything then change to nationalism etc, show me that chinese agricultural based civilization was changed to goat herding nation by the mongol then talk

            How about establishment of the future Chinese nation, by Kublai Kahn

            stupid cunt. based in beijing or not it does not change the culture, the ming dynasty changed the capital form nanjing to beijing, after the yuan dynasty the first capital was nanjing not beijing. chinese capital moved several times in the past read history so that you become less ignorant.
            show me that there was a fundamental basic change in culture with the change of capital, there were 5 capital of unified china in the past. xian, luoyang, kaifeng, nanjing and beijing, show me that changing of capital = change of culture or civilization.

            You sure? Do you have the test results back yet?
            if i am 95% han and 5 % mongol how am i more mongol than han?? explain you point here stupid

          • wacky

            5. Umm.. the envoys were representing the Mongol Empire.
            so?? how did the envoy to europe means that there are changing of chinese culture???????
            after the mongol sent envoy to europe chinese started to speak french ??????

          • Chinggis was here

            @ wacky.
            I can’t understand your rambling diatribe. I’m busy with Dim mak at the moment. When/if that ends, I’ll get back to whatever you were on about.

          • Chinggis was here

            Dim mak, my disappointment with you is increasing. I expected more from you, as you seem to have some alibility to think critically, unlike wacky who, I fear, is verging on a nationalistic mental breakdown and appears to be recently infliced with Tourette’s syndrome and a strange aversion to goats.

            Let’s start with point one again.

            1. China is not a continuous civilisation.

            Hmm, I see the fenqing pain is strong with you on that. Ok fair enough. If you want to ignore being completely conquered and ruled by the Mongols and Manchu and the Southern Song men being relegated to the lowest form of social status under the glorious Mongol rulers and still say that China is a continuous civilisation, that’s your prerogative.

            Maybe it’s ‘continuation with Chinese characteristics’?

            I mean, you just have to look at the maps of the dynasties to see there is no continuation. All those different kingdoms in different areas with different capitals and languages and some stage over the rise and falls of the dynasties there is gap in the areas controlled (I’ll give you an example another time) – maybe the culture was transferred from one different dynastic area to another by time travel using a specially trained cultural horse (you like horses, don’t you?) or goat (that’s for wacky) or a carrier pigeon called Speckled Jim?– I would suggest that shows lack of continuation, but I presume you’ll just ignore that too. (That’s a new point, you happy now?)

            Unfortunately progress is not being made there, let’s move on then?

            2. There is no such thing as 5,000 years of Chinese culture.

            Mr. mak, could you at least give me an example of a time when this magical culture beagan?

            I’ve asked previously and I’m still waiting for an answer for this.
            Writing? Same language from then till now? Perhaps some magnificent structures like Stonehenge or the Pyramids or the Parthenon?

            Some event that happened 5000 years ago that can be defined as ‘Chinese culture’?

            Take your time. Dim mak.

            Let’s just stop there for the time being. Just keep it at the above for now otherwise progress will never be achieved.

            As for citations and refuting, well generally citations they are used to support an argument, so I’ll see your references and raise you, but first I need an answer to the above.

            I’m repeating my claims because you don’t answer them; you pick and choose and ignore the critical questions. Then I’m asked questions about ‘Chinese’. I would presume what defines Chinese culture from 5000 years ago is your job.

            Don’t worry, there’s plenty of new points to come.

            This is a debate? Wow. I thought it was just a place for you to vent your nationalistic slogans. I don’t care whether the readers in this haven of trolls believe what I say or not.

            Finally, I’m certainly not concerned about my standing on Wikipedia. I mean, who’d want to post on that site with fenqing like you there?. Let the game continue.

          • wacky

            @ chingis
            dont try to run away. address my points.
            i said that mongol occupation did not make chinese less chinese, therefore there was no discontinuation of chinese civilization, for these simple reasons
            1. mongol invasion did not make chinese a goat herding people
            2. chinese did not abandoned chinese script in favor of mongolian script
            3. chinese were not speaking mongolian then and are not now
            4. chinese called themselves chinese not monggolian
            5. chinese still use chinese style name not mongolian name

            what in my points that you dont understand??
            while you keep coming with the same argument “china is not a continuous civilization because china was occupied by the monglols” and nothing to prove that the occupation itself make chinese less chinese and more mongol. you have proven nothing of that at all.

            moreover, your other arguments about mongol sends envoy to europe, mongol set their capital in beijing, mongol blood etc, has nothing to do with chinese civilization yet you keep coming with these stupid ideas, all i ask is for you to show me that
            1. mongol envoy to europe has made chinese in china less chinese.
            2. mongol capital in beijing, had a great impact on culture and civilization not just a mere changing of capital like what had happened centuries before that.
            3. chinese gene is o3 according to every scientific journal i have read while mongols gene is c, some chinese might have mongol gene, but you have neither provided evidence not presented a good argument why the mongol gene is such an important thing and not just a minor if not negligible

          • wacky

            this is my answer to your question about chinese 5000 years of civilization

            i have provided to you the chinese historiography link.
            sima qian in his record of historian, started with the story of yellow emperor. yellow emperor himself might or might not be a real figure, but the point i am making here is during that time or period chinese civilization emerged in yellow river valley and central plain by a tribe of people, and is now backed by archaeological evidence.
            sima qian in his writing acknowledges that these people as their predecessor, the dynasty before them. clearly distinguish them from surrounding barbarian tribes
            writing system chinese writing today might not the same as what we had 5000 years ago,but chinese writing today evolve from those from 5000 years ago
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tiger_colored_gif.gif
            that chinese writing system today is still a pictogram character based system evolve from the ancient system and not from mongolian script.

            language, old chinese then is not the same as modern chinese today, but that does not matter, southern dialects too are different from mandarin and from one another. and by that alone does not make cantonese more or less chinese than a bejingers. or shanghainese more or less chinese than a fujianese. your understanding of chinese culture is full of ignorance that you dont even know that chinese people called themselves HUA PEOPLE.

            anyway, these are internal evolution and development which none of these has something to do with your
            mongolian occupation idea.

            and again i ask you to respond to my point about mongolian occupation and influence as i have done twice before. show me there were major evidence that mongolian culture had a massive impact on chinese culture so great that it caused a discontinuation, so massive that it caused a fundamental changes in chinese culture as a whole not just a minor one

            present the evidence that
            1. chinese people became a goat herder during the yuan dynasty and afterward. the way egyptian after accepting islam lived in an islamic lifestyle
            2. chinese abandoned chinese writing in favor of mongolian one. the way egyptian is using arabic writing now
            3. chinese spoke mongolian then and are speaking mongolian now. the way egyptian are speaking arab now
            4. chinese people called themselves mongolian, or descendant of mongols, part of mongolian culture, and not a hua people. they way syrian is now arab
            5. chinese names are now mongolian name, the way Egyptian names are now arabic

          • Guang Xiang

            dim mak, sorry bro, I’m Chinese and I really want to side with you, but your arguments are so pitiful and you haven’t dismantled anything really. You are really exhibiting the typical “hands over ears and eyes closed” response.

            Chingas 1 , Dim Mak 0

            As for wacky, you are spouting passionate nonsense.

            As for my take on the subject, I have no idea why China is so obsessed over this 5000 years of cultural history clause. Is it really something to be that proud of cause it really seems like 5000 years of history has amounted to a relatively lackluster culture. I would argue that Taiwan shows more Chinese culture than China. Korea and Japan have much larger cultural influence internationally than China. Heck, the US has a huge cultural influence within it’s relatively short history.

            Maybe because 5000 years of history looks good in textbooks.

          • Guang Xiang

            is 5000 years of history really worth defending? shouldn’t china just focus on the present? As i was once told:

            好漢不提當年勇

          • wacky

            @ guangxiang.
            i just respond to his idea that
            chinese civilization is not continuous due foreign occupation in this case mongolian yuan dynasty

            i studied basic anthropology once, i read about culture in south east asia as well as middle east, i probably not an expert on chinese history but i can make an comparison and i know the difference between development and discontinuation , between total change of culture and merely an outside influence.
            you can say that chinese civilization is not 5000 years long, but provide your argument please.
            are you saying now that chinese civilization is now represented by taiwan??

            people are moving forward wherever they are they are living for the future, that does not mean that people should throw away history, as people advance to the future so does the historical study.

          • Chinggis was here

            @ wacky, You need to learn some patience. I’m busy with Dim mak at the moment. At least he appears to have a modicum of intelligence and can be reasoned with until he’s sent off and returns from ‘re-education’. You’re nothing but a fanatic with a strange dislike of goats. You also appear to believe in fairy-tales and have decided to add another 2000 years to some cut marks on some magic bones dated to around 1000 bc and call it 5000 years of Chinese culture.

            So your definition of 5000 years of Chinese culture is: First, some scratches on some bones from 1000 bc? Second, some kind of language that no is sure about what it was and doesn’t speak anymore? Finally, a fairy tale told by a man who lived 3000 years after it happened? I see. Well I can’t argue with that.

            I’m also concerned with your mental well-being in regard to your abusive comments towards Buddhism: that’s some ‘bad karma’ there wacky. You’ll need to do a heap of bowing to make up for that.

            You keep referring to my third point. I’m not up to there with Dim mak yet. However, I never said massive change I said dramatic change and we are still at the Mongol era and have not even made it to the ‘Hello Kitty’ era yet. Would ‘Hello Kitty’ count as massive change? wacky.

            You obviously know nothing of Mongol law and social structure during the benevolent rule of the Great Mongol Yuan.
            Kublai had a four class structure, in your case a five class structure.

            Number 1: Mongol
            Number 2: Semu: like the Tibetans, Uighurs and Arabs
            Number 3:. Manchu/ Khitans
            Number 4: Goat herders/Southern Chinese
            Number 5: You

            Not only didn’t the Mongols have a script until Genghis, It was also against one Kublai Khan’s laws for you to learn Mongolian, I presume that’s either because he didn’t want his beautiful Mongolian language polluted by the slave of goat herders or because you were too busy trying to keep the goat herders goats happy and sexually sated.

            So for you to say show me where: “chinese abandoned chinese writing in favor of mongolian one “ or “chinese spoke mongolian” then” is telling on how you are on the verge of mental retardation.

            I’m busy now. In a few weeks from now, when I have some time and if I want some comedic relief from an indoctrinated, ideological, goat-hating nationalist, I’ll reply to your child-like ravings.

          • moop

            i chortled a couple times

          • wacky

            @chingis
            1. this is what i mean
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlitou_culture
            http://en.wikipedia.org
            /wiki/Shang_Dynasty#Early_Bronze_Age_archaeology
            In 1959, the site of the Erlitou culture was found in Yanshi, south of the Yellow River near Luoyang.[20] Radiocarbon dating suggests that the Erlitou culture flourished ca. 2100 BC to 1800 BC. They built large palaces, suggesting the existence of an organized state

            2. Second, some kind of language that no is sure about what it was and doesn’t speak anymore?
            spoken or not spoken do not change the fact that this language was a chinese language the way any other chinese language that existed today.
            and the writing system develops to what we know as chinese writing today.
            i see this as a development old chinese developed to middle chinese then to modern chinese dialects.
            you said that this process is a discontinuation. so was there anybody come to china and destroy the language? (according to your foreign occupier argument)

            – Finally, a fairy tale told by a man who lived 3000 years after it happened? I see. Well I can’t argue with that.
            read my post, the yellow emperor might have been or might not have been existed, but the culture along yellow river valley from which chinese civilization was born clearly existed

            -I’m also concerned with your mental well-being in regard to your abusive comments towards Buddhism
            dont try to twist my word all that i said is that buddhism (the biggest foreign culture to effect china) even though was a foreign religion did not make chinese indian, chinese did not use indian script nor lived like indian. if you found this abusive it is up to you

            -You keep referring to my third point. I’m not up to there with Dim mak yet. However, I never said massive change I said dramatic change
            this is your answer to me
            Chinggis was here
            Tuesday, June 12, 2012 at 6:23 pm
            @wacky
            1. Wacky, stop misquoting me. I said it’s not possible for China to be a continuous civilisation because China was invaded and occupied twice by other foreign civilisations. One a civilisation is invaded and occupied it can no longer be continuous.

            i asked you to show me any change that made chinese not chinese anymore therefore discontinued the culture and civilization by these i mean that chinese got assimilated by the mongol or if you can point out another fundamental changes on all of these
            1. language
            2. social system
            3. family structure
            4. occupation
            5. religion
            6. art
            7. clothing
            these 7 things that construct a culture ( basic anthropology)
            tell me if you know anything other than these

            so far you have only been able to show me is : =
            was also against one Kublai Khan’s laws for you to learn Mongolian.
            and you have not been able to show me that chinese abandoned their language and speak mongolian. discontinuation only happened if the chinese abandoned their language at all. i am learning english doesnt mean i become assimilated by the british.

            what are you talking about when you talk about discontinuation? for what i know discontinuation of culture only happened because of 1. assimilation to another culture
            2. total destruction of a culture
            if you happened to know anything other than these 2 and happened during the yuan dynasty please tell me otherwise your argument does not stand.

            i know about the yuan dynasty social structure, what i am asking is for you to show me that there was a fundamental change that caused the chinese culture and civilization to become discontinued (either assimilated or destructed). and you keep coming with your mongol envoy to europe, grand canal, kunqu opera etc.

          • wacky

            Hello Kitty’ era yet. Would ‘Hello Kitty’ count as massive change? wacky.

            modern age is different from ancient era, modern chinese have to adapt to modernization while holding on to their identity, of course modern culture has effected chinese culture as well but the question is does this make chinese not chinese?????
            until now i think chinese people all over the world has been making efforts to hold on to their identity at the same time embrace modernity.
            chinese culture and civilization has entered a different era and must live side by side with it, chinese people has moved aboard in massive number since the 19th century up till now, the question is was this people get assimilated? most still hold on to their identity while trying to integrate to the society they are living in, that is why you heard the term chinese american, chinese malaysian etc. and that is why the term huaqiao and huayi are invented.
            chinese in china are categorized as han chinese, to indicate people with the same cultural heritage as oppose to ethnic minorities.

          • wacky

            regarding the civilization matter
            according to wikipedia
            The emergence of civilization is generally associated with the Neolithic, or Agricultural Revolution, which occurred in various locations between 8,000 and 5,000 BCE, specifically in southwestern/southern Asia, northern/central Africa and Central America.[34] This revolution marked the beginning of stable agriculture and animal domestication which enabled economies and cities to develop.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization#History

            the earliest and raw form of civilization to emerge in china was the longshan culture, this culture Life during the Longshan culture marked a transition to the establishment of cities, as rammed earth walls and moats began to appear; the site at Taosi is the largest walled Longshan settlement.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longshan_culture#cite_note-fairbank_33-1

            http://books.google.co.id/books?id=cHA7Ey0-pbEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=id#v=onepage&q&f=false

            longshan culture are among the most significant discoveries.. they are also great of importance in the comparative study of chinese culture during 3rd millenium bc providing tangible and reliable clues to the reason why and how civilization and states first come into being. remains of the culture show clearly that during this period society has become stratified…
            such hierarchical order is seen in each cluster of tombs suggesting segmentary lineage type of kinship
            such remains (of the culture) obviously indicate society at a stage of development between of the yangshao culture and the latter shang civilization
            http://archaeology.about.com/od/lterms/qt/longshan.htm
            The new Longshan fortified settlements were built with rectangular plans, advanced drainage systems and buildings of adobe mud brick. Populations for one of the largest Longshan towns (Shijiahe) may have ranged from between 15,000 to 50,000 inhabitants within the settlement’s walls. A recent survey of Shandong has revealed a regional political organization with four tiers of four-tiered set of administrative sites within the Longshan cultural period, with sites such as Yaowangcheng and Liangchengzhen acting as politically autonomous administrative centers. Some historians have argued that Longshan represents the archaeological correlative of the Wu Di, the “Five Emperors” period.

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278416596900100

            In the third millennium B.C., the Longshan culture in the Central Plains of northern China was the crucial matrix in which the first states evolved from the basis of earlier Neolithic societies.Both external and internal factors, including geographical condition, climatic fluctuation, Yellow River’s changing course, population movement, and intergroup conflict, played important roles in the development of complex societies in the Longshan culture

            LONGSHAN CULTURE MARKED THE FIRST STEP TOWARDS A CIVILIZATION, THE CITY STARTED TO EMERGE, THE SOCIETY STARTED TO BECOME MORE COMPLEX AND STRATIFIED, LONGSHAN CULTURE LOCATED IN AROUND YELLOW RIVER IS PREDECESSOR OF ERLITOU CULTURE.

          • Eidolon

            I don’t see an issue with what wacky and co. are trying to defend, though 5,000 years is an exaggeration – Chinese civilization began around 3,000-4,000 years ago. But the idea that China has had a continuous civilization for several thousand years was first proposed by Western historians and I think it stands up fine to scrutiny up all the way up to the modern age. The concept of a continuous civilization is not based around never being conquered – after all, every civilization has been conquered a couple of times – but exists rather in the preservation of its core traditions.

            For China, that is:

            * Confucianism and Daoism as basic moral systems
            * A notion of rulership based on adherence to those systems
            * A centralized bureaucracy
            * Literacy in the Chinese script
            * Knowledge of and worship of the Chinese classics
            * Committment to agricultural society
            * A world view that revolves around China being the center and the Chinese ruler as the universal ruler of all civilized beings
            * A backward looking conservatism – ie the ancient emperors were always better
            * The Sinitic languages

            All of the above were preserved all the way up to the modern age. But the modern age is a far bigger challenge to the Chinese tradition than the Mongols and the Manchus were. Mongol rule amounted to a hundred years occupation, while the Manchus coopted Chinese traditions to rule the Chinese. Neither managed to destroy Chinese civilization, and indeed the Chinese practiced the above all the way up to the modern age.

            Chingghis was here sounds to me like the average Mongol / Korean nationalist who’s pissed at the colonization of Asians by the white man but has no issue glorifying Asians’ invasion and colonization of others, unless those invasions and colonizations happen to be by the Chinese towards them. Then they do have a problem.

            He has failed to substantiate the bulk of his fringe ideas, and reliance on the Japanese of all people to be objective about Chinese history is downright ridiculous.

        • Alan

          One, China has always been a consistent superpower. Two, China has maintained its ancient customs and lineage far better than anywhere else.

          More crap. More nazi propaganda without anything to back it up.

    • asdf

      5000 years of history? you’re such a dumbass. China just had its 100th birthday. China didn’t even exist from 1644 to 1912. There was only the “great manchu empire” aka “sick man of asia”.

      • fredf

        You do not know a rhetorical question when you see one.

        Everyone else understood that I was pointing out the idiocy of the “5000 years” claim.

        • asdf

          Yeah sure, go ahead and change your argument. when you can’t beat them join them. well played…

      • KongMingQin

        Its not ”great manchu empire” it’s ”Great Qing Empire” right? and China did exist from 1644-1912 too, and China has over 5.000 yrs of history… now I’m wondering if post 1911-1912 China did exist… Maybe after 1949… Its hard to tell. and ”sick man of asia” is when you abandon your traditions,clothing,way of living,political system to sell yourself to the western idea/music/clothing/hairstyle/political system.

    • asdf

      5000 years of history? you’re such a dumbass. China just had its 100th birthday. From 1644 to 1912 China didn’t exist. There was only the “Great Manchurian empire” aka “sick man of asia”.

    • Pseudotriton

      Are you telling me that no other people, especially Americans, exhibit any form of victim mentality? The USA, with literally the mightiest military in the world and a military budget 10 times the sum of the next next three countries combined, would constantly complain about military expansion by China and scare its people with percieved threat of terrorism. Victim mentality is simply a strategy based on human nature.

      • Nick in Beijing

        @Chingis: I just wanted to add in that politically the Manchu are NOT assimilated into China yet. I know a few Chinese of Manchu descent. One in particular whose fathers family are pure ethnic Manchu (at least as pure as modern Chinese can be), and whose mother’s family is “Han”.

        Upon her birth the parents were posed with the question of whether or not they want their daughter to have Han or Manchu listed as her official identity. They opted for Manchu nationality because it comes with various social benefits and minority rights.

        This to me doesn’t paint a picture of assimilation.

        Just wanted to give you that little tidbit to help your argument.

      • Alan

        would constantly complain about military expansion by China

        When a country is claiming a peaceful rise, but at the same time expands it’s nuclear sub fleet and hides it, as well as a hidden strategic reserve of oil, then one must question the rationale behind it. Obfuscation does not help matters, transparency does….

        and scare its people with percieved threat of terrorism.

        Perceived? Very real, two WTC bombings, Madrid train station, London underground, Moscow metro, thwarted attempts to down atlantic airliners….god knows what else in the future?

  • Little Wolf

    I’ve only been to Beijing once and it was last fall and the weather was clear and free of smog and I wondered what the fuss was all about but I suppose I was just lucky. I liked Beijing alot…it’s way better than Hangzhou. I was led to believe it’s desert sand that makes the air so bad compared to smog.

    What I do know is……when I was a kid, the smog in Los Angeles was pretty dreary and despite still being the worst in the USA, unleaded gas and catalytic converters and other measures have greatly improved the air quality and reduced the number of smog days. It’s been a long and ongoing process but it has been fairly successful.

    • moop

      fall is the only time of year beijing is tolerable. the winds push the pollution right on through pretty quickly, i live here and its terrible 95% of the time

      • LeBateauPolice

        I lived in BJ for 1 year and the days i really experienced smog are countable on 2 hands, so at that time i really wondered why the whole world makes a fuss about it. Also many foreigners were talking about smog as soon as it was cloudy or foggy, them shitheads. Except the few days there was desert sand all over, weathe in BJ was really ok.

        • tai wai

          Oh, well then. Based on your anecdotal evidence that the air quality in Beijing is great, and only shithead foreigners would say otherwise, I guess I must agree: There is absolutely no need for the US to measure air quality.

          Wait, no, that still doesn’t make sense. If the air quality is so good, as you say, what’s the harm in the US verifying that?

          • LeBateauPolice

            no harm. chinamen just worried about their country’s reputation, i can understand. took me a while to explain to my friends that there isn’t smog every day in bj. why would they think that?
            oh, i know. as soon there is smog, western media even reports it (wtf?who is interested in this shit?), making a big fuss out of it, trying to prove china’s ignorance towards environment and health of the people (which is true, but once again, wtf?).
            but as you say, no harm in general,i’m not against it at all

          • A-Dog

            China is the one making a big deal out of it. The US embassy gives internet air readings for US citizens living here, just like any major city back home does for their citizens. That’s not making a big deal of it. China is the one who is trying to twist this into an international espionage case. The Chinese government made a stupid and arrogant request of the US. The US said no. End of story. And LeBateau, I don’t know where you grew up, but Beijing air is filthy. That thing you call “fog” here is not fog. Fog doesn’t exist in a major city at noon. When you can barely see the buildings that are two blocks away, it’s called smog. And that may not be every day, but it’s close to half.

      • mr. wiener

        Moop do you still have to pull black “stalactites” out of your nose at the end of a bad smog day in Beijing? These are my memories of my time there.

        • moop

          oh yeah, a lot of grayish crap inside my nose by the end of the day. you back in oz or a different part of china?

          • mr. wiener

            “China Lite” these days, Taiwan. I loved the time I spent in China, but Taiwan is way more comfortable and convenient.
            Try not to breath too deeply.

          • moop

            yeah? my wife has been saying she wants to move there

    • XiaoHei

      I’ve been to Beijing twice and to China overall about 8 times. I must say I was also unlucky enough not to experience any smog. Keeping my fingers crossed.

    • red scarf

      You were lucky, I lived there 3 years, seen crystal clear days and crap days. Worse time is when the first winter cold fronts come in Autumn dragging all the crap from the atmosphere down. Theres been a few times I’ve ridden home and my eyes have been stinging from the pollution, well theres 3 coal fired power plants in the area, and times the inside courtyard of my workplace is has been “foggy”.

    • pada

      In fact the air in Beijing is not that foul in last a few years and is improving every year. The 150,000 strong foreign immigrants for seasonal visa-run are a solid prove since we know their noble lungs are unviolateable.

      We all know tweeting smog is part of US geopolitical inciting instigating fermenting fcking agenda, apart from cunt-show of carrying own baggages and buying own coffee.

      While some Chinese who believe in universal value certainly have freedom to buy one-spot monitering result in downtown Beijing by US embassy rather than the 27-spot monitering all over the city, Chinese consular in LA could also maintain a one-spot monitor in downtown LA, behind a rotten clunker we saw so often in America, hinting US government is cheating. ;)

      • moop

        because they moved a lot of the factories in 2008, its still terrible and will continue to be, deflecting usually helps though, it might even get rid of the pollution.

      • fredf

        ” Chinese consular in LA could also maintain a one-spot monitor in downtown ”

        Go right ahead. The American government has already invited China to monitor the air in America.

        We monitor your air, you monitor our air. No problems, all is fair :)

        • pada

          “one-spot monitoring” is the key, which is beyond your ultimate ability to understand. ;)

          • Muay Thai guy

            Not quite, more strict controlling in line with international standards is the key. ;)

          • fredf

            “one-spot monitoring” is not a problem.
            The American government does not care what China says about the air in LA.

            You only know how to copy and paste party propaganda.
            The ability and confidence to think for yourself is the key,
            which is beyond your ultimate ability to understand. ;)

          • pada

            @Fredt
            I love to copy and paste something like
            —-“air pollution poses a threat to the health of about 154 million Americans – or more than half of the US population, as the American Lung Association (ALA) said on 2011 report.

            —The air is so polluted in some areas that it is often dangerous to breathe, the ALA said in its annual report on air quality across the United States.

            —About 48 percent of US residents live in counties where smog (ozone) is too high, 20 percent live in areas where there are too many short-term spikes in pollution and six percent live in areas with harmful year-round soot (particle pollution), said the report.

            —About 17 million Americans live in areas afflicted by all three air pollution hazards, the report noted.

            —The report listed California as the most polluted state, where people are breathing some of the worst air.

            —Compared with other states, California has more polluted places, including LA, Long Beach, Riverside, Bakersfield and Fresno, the report said.

            I know Honolulu and Santa Fe-Espanola are the cleanest cities in your nation, but to your dismay, I just dont copy and paste it to let it be known, ;))) !

          • fredf

            pada, thanks for proving my opinion of your abilities :)

          • pada

            @Fedt,
            Thank you for giving me the opportunity to cut n paste an ALA report writen exclusively for “party propaganda” as you presumed or for some idiots who ever dare to consider US as model of greenpeace. I just wonder since when you started to think you had that fckin title while you folks fart out hot-air 4 times as much as Chinese on per capita basis.

          • fredf

            pada, nobody is denying that America or other countries have pollution.
            What you copy and paste from the ALA doesn’t matter.

            This discussion is about how China cries like a little girl whenever anything slightly bad is ever sad about China.

            China criticizes America all day, everyday, and America does not care.

            America says that China has air pollution, and China has a temper tantrum.

            You only know how to copy, you never learned how to think .

          • pada

            –“China criticizes America all day, everyday, and America does not care”?

            Check all media archive you’ll become smarter enough to know who criticized who much more, everyday. Critizing or punching China for your own mistakes is already a way of American life. But China doesnt need to criticize America since its interest is domestic, while America must do it as its interest is about overseas.

            Amazing thing on America is, while it has own asshole not properly wipes, like the record of pollution or human right, it forever tends to point finger to others, as way to mislead and impress the world that it has no such problem or at least treat itself as an exception.

            Last, I not only know how to cut n paste ALA as “party propaganda”, unlike you, I also know how to think as well, ;)

          • moop

            pada, you know how to think… poorly. your cut and paste comments about ‘merica’s air quality is irrelevant considering the standards being used. what we in the united states consider dangerous levels of pollution china considers safe.

        • linette

          Nothing wrong with monitoring the air of any country. It should be a public information on the internet. People have the right to know is the air is safe or not to breath. Why is it an internal affair when I am the one breathing the air. Everyone has the right to know what they are breathing and what they will be breathing in as soon as they arrive China. It’s like a weather report.

          This will force every nation to pay more attention to their pollutions and recycle. It’s important for our earth.

        • D. Tective

          They could, but who would believe it?

      • A-Dog

        I can’t tell if you’re a troll or not. :) If you aren’t you clearly don’t know the US govt very well. Whenever one part tries to cheat at something, the other side exposes them and gets them run out of town. We’ve got lots of corruption too, but for the most part the criminal officials end up out of a job or in prison. Just look at the governors of Illinois. 3 of the last 6 have ended up in prison.

    • CN

      Is it possible that the air quality is still bad even when the air appears clear? Or is visibility directly correlated with quality?

    • Foreign Devil

      I lived there 2 years and compared to Canada the smog level is horrible. yes the fall has the most blue sky days. In a country like Canada. the concept of “blue sky day” seems ridiculous . because for us it is just normal to have a blue sky and distinct visible clouds rather than that Huge Amorphous brown haze that hovers continually over most of the continent of China. . (and mostly likely India too).

  • red scarf

    The USA should simply say “its our sovereign right to report health issues affecting the citizens of the USA while travelling in China” and while doing so in the tone of a manic evil voice.

  • moop

    most countries post some kind of travel warnings for their citizens, this isn’t really any different. i hope they make a weibo, i am building a green car that runs on wumao tears

  • moop

    he’s new, and with english that bad he probably is only here to pick up his 5 mao and buy some mantou

    [Note: “le lo” is neither new nor Chinese wumao. You guys can speculate the rest.]

    • Nick in Beijing

      I would like to be the first to buy such a car.

      Thank you kind sir for your contribution to the world.

    • fredf

      This Note is from who ? From “moop” or ?

      [Note: From your overworked chinaSMACK moderators.]

      • fredf

        Ok,
        My suggestion is that you include “Note from ChinaSMACK moderator: ”
        Thanks for giving us this website !
        :)

    • moop

      awww you can’t tell us? i don’t remember that name le lo though, guess i guessed wrong. someone changed their name or pretending to be someone else? normally you call people out on that?

      [Note from chinaSMACK Moderator: We sometimes do but usually don’t (Fauna particularly likes to out people). We added a note this time simply because there were so many comments in reply we felt we should provide an explanation for the mass culling. Leaving the comments would be an artificial inflation of the number of comments for this post.]

      • Notorious

        I get a huge kick out of fauna when she does that. Please don’t ever stop her from doing that.

        • Beijinger in Seattle

          when she does what?

          is fauna hot? she seems kinda hot.

          • staylost

            Fauna is a goddess.

    • Dawei

      He is not the Canadian Interpol evading German cybercafe frequenting chap is he?

    • mr. wiener

      Hmmm…..CB strikes again?

      • mr. wiener

        Dear overworked chinaSMACK moderators. Sorry but the comments seems to have been deactivated on the story about the Canadian gay porn cannibal.[the guy who looks like an evil Justin Bieber]. I’d be thrilled if you could get that up and running again….Thanks…..Mr. Wiener.

        [Note from chinaSMACK moderator: Sorry for the inconvenience. We’re experiencing some problems from our latest server updates this past weekend. We’re trying to fix them as soon as possible, so please try again and let us know if its still not working.]

        • mr. wiener

          chinaSMACK moderator folk.
          Tried again and still not hunkydory I’m sorry to say. No hurry on that. Keep up the good work. I love the site :)

        • al

          “evil Justin Bieber”…classic. Best laugh I’ve had all week

          • al

            Meant to be a reply on Sir Wiener’s previous post BTW. Not sure what happened.

          • Alan

            During the Soviet Union people also started to name a new nation – soviet. It was build up of all kinds of nations in Soviet Union. If it could success one day we could have a new nation – turkish-georgian-russian-finno-ugric Great Nation Soviet. Quite the same is happening now in more democratical country than Soviet Union was – in Indonesia. They are building up a new identity, which is mixed of all kinds of small nations around Indonesian Archipelago.

            @ Rui: BRAVO Sir!

            Will dumb mac get it, we shall see…….

          • Alan

            In Soviet times it was also said that there doesn’t exist Ukrainian or Belarussian identity and they have to be Russians or Soviets.

            @ Rui: I can also agree on this. It was common to list Russian as your nationality back in the days of the USSR, even if you were of Mongol, Kazakh, or Bashkir nationality simply because as you say it helped with jobs and so on.

            I’d agree China followed this kind of policy too.

          • jeffli

            every country does schtoopid!
            your nationality is written of you passport,
            your ethnicity is another thing.

          • Dr SUN

            75% of people living in the united states don’t have a passport so what nationality does that mean they are ?

            Ethnicity is on a Chinese ID card and Hukou, must have some relevance, don’t you think ?

    • staylost

      Oh, thanks, it must have been BXL. Pretty easy to tell I think.

    • Brett Hunan

      cb

  • fredf

    What happened to the comments from “le lo” ?
    Why the censorship ?
    Why were the comments by a Chinese racist removed ?
    Was “le lo” losing too much face for the Chinese people ?

    [Note: No, we also delete trolling comments from Chinese people pretending to be foreigners. Read the comment policy.]

  • moop

    why are all the posts missing?

  • Slob

    I don’t see how publicizing air quality reports could be in any way meddling with internal affairs – like they said, they’re doing it for their citizens and if they did the same in the US, no-one would care. They don’t see it as meddling with internal affairs at all. It’s just because they know the air quality is absolute shit and it’s a huge loss of face.

  • dim mak

    Foreigners bitch out Canada for withdrawing from the Kyoto protocol all the time. And most Canadians agree. Even Harper’s own minions. What’s the problem?

    Industrializing countries pollute. It’s already clear that Beijing wants to emphasize growth before environment, this wouldn’t even be an issue if not for face politics.

    >slap to the face
    Only if you make it out to be

    >any criticism is interfering with internal affairs
    Translation: My feelings are hurt let me cover it with conspiracy theories and faux nationalism

  • Dawei

    The fact the ministry made a fuss over this speaks volumes. They are clearly under pressure to keep the reporded figures within “reasonable” bounds, and the imperialists are reducing their wriggle room with their air quality fact measuring machine or it may be that they see the embassies alternative as an insult to their professional credibility particularly since I don’t think the USA measures air quality in any other country.

  • Notorious

    wow is the air as dirty as the pictures look? That’s insane. can’t compare america’s air to that. surprised people are not choking to death or having cancers, heaven forbid.

    • fredf

      “wow is the air as dirty as the pictures look?”

      Last year I stayed on the 20th floor of a hotel in Beijing, and it was
      so polluted that it was difficult to see the hotel just across the street.

    • Anon

      It’s not like that all the time. It has actually improved a lot. Ten years ago, after my first night in Beijing I was, no joke, scraping black stuff out of my nostrils and hawking up phlegm with dark particles in it. In more recent years, it has taken more like 1 1/2 – 2 weeks to start experiencing serious sinus discomfort. It’s still bad, but it’s undoubtedly better.

      • PeterScriabin

        Yes, I completely second that. My first night in Bj was 2004-12-10, and there was a sooty smell to the air I had not experienced since I was a small child in London, England. Can also confirm the black-particles-in-snot experience.

        Based on several visits a year, it seems the Bj air-quality has improved, on average, quite a bit since 2008. There are still bad days and periods, but not like 10 years ago.

        More generally, I think the Chinese gov wants to be the sole source of facts about internal affairs, for its own citizens. Just as parents want their children to listen to them, not the opinions and practices of their childrens’ friends’ parents.

  • elizabeth

    The Americans have lots to learn as regards China’s lingo. Just as you wish for the Chinese not to infringe your ‘copy right’ laws, you should also know that meddling with China’s air quality is tantamount to infringing on her airspace.

    • moop

      congratulations, you’re the dumbest person in the room

      • elizabeth

        I’d love to say thanks, but, at least, I know what ‘sarcasm’ means.

        • red scarf

          Lol yes, but to be a nerd, is the airspace above an embassy technically part of that countries airspace? So instead of the American embassy monitoring Chinese air pollution their monitoring American air pollution.

    • dim mak

      Fuck no this is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard

      Responses like this is why we can’t have real nationalism

      • elizabeth

        Gosh, you guys have no sense of humor. Zilch!

        Copy right – means it is okay as long as you know how to copy it ‘right’.

        Airspace – anything about ‘air’ belongs in this space.

        Geddit???

        Argh!

        Nationalism a la Americanos…

        Argh you guys are stressing me to wrinkles.

        • dim mak

          I apologize for not recognizing your punnery, but humorous things are usually supposed to BE FUNNY

        • fredf

          We have senses of humor, and we understand sarcasm.
          But, your joke is just not funny.

          Sorry dear :)

        • moop

          you should take your comedy show on the road, very, very far away

          • elizabeth

            Not until you pack your bags and stinky attitude and scoot back to where you came from will I even consider doing that.

          • moop

            yeah, you’re still not funny

          • elizabeth

            It’s not meant to be funny.

    • Dawei

      Lizy dear, too obscure to be identified as sarcasm, and too much like a Po.

      • elizabeth

        What’s Po?

        I’d like to know too, whether you think it’s sarcasm against the Americans or Chinese.

        Seriously, I think some people really need to lighten up and drop the crude ‘f’ word that’s polluting their minds. Maybe then, they will have some space between their ears for what’s ‘funny’.

        When I first heard the copyright joke, the whole audience was laughing. So it’s not the obscurity but something else.

        • moop

          “When I first heard the copyright joke, the whole audience was laughing. So it’s not the obscurity but something else.”

          like… your delivery? or the fact that it wasn’t a funny joke. were you at a carrot top show?

          • elizabeth

            Nope, your polluted congested mind.

          • moop

            haha, your joke was a massive fail and it’s everyone else’s fault. trust me, you’re a lot dumber than anyone here

          • elizabeth

            The real losers are the ones who call others dumb because that’s all the consolation they can get while licking their own wounds since they are incapable of returning intelligent arguments to an issue raised.

            Sounds like someone who labelled me dumb apparently because I have shaken his ever so fragile nationalistic ego but that’s all he could say in retort.

          • moop

            and the crickets are still chirping. you’re just pissed because no one thought your lame-ass joke was funny. maybe try a knock-knock joke next time

          • elizabeth

            Oh, and yes, now I am beginning to understand why many Chinese do not look favorably upon laowais. It’s thanks to those few bad eggs among them who think the world of themselves, and degrade others to feel good about themselves (which is an irony since they wouldn’t have to if they had substance) instead of trying to understand their hosts.

          • moop

            hold on, i’m thinking of a really good “copy right” joke as a comeback

          • elizabeth

            You are wrong. I am enjoying every bit of what I am writing about you and I couldn’t careless about what people like you think of me and my comments.

          • moop

            ok, ok, i got it here goes, joke of the century right here:

            “The Americans have lots to learn as regards China’s lingo. Just as you wish for the Chinese not to infringe your ‘copy right’ laws, you should also know that meddling with China’s air quality is tantamount to infringing on her airspace.”

            anybody? anybody? c’mon this is pure comedic gold (chirp chirpp chirp)

            get over yourself honey

          • elizabeth

            Lol! That’s all?

            Moopody do da moopody eh
            My oh my what a wonderful day

            Knock knock moopy
            Anything up there?

            Lol!

          • elizabeth

            Oh, sugar, here’s one more and I am done.

            Knock, knock, who’s there?

            Moopody.

            Who?

            Moopody.

            Nobody? Obviously you are someobdy.

            Gosh, get the chunk of cheese outta of your mouth before you speak!

            Lol!

          • elizabeth

            Ok, I have been very naughty. I am sorry moop.

            But please don’t mess with me again.

            Friends.

          • moop

            you’re chinese aren’t you?

          • elizabeth

            What’s your point?

            I am not wumao, if you are wondering.

      • elizabeth

        My posts keep disappearing.

        What’s Po?

        • Dawei

          Elizabeth do you am Moop want to go get a chat room?

          Well it Poe’s Law (I missed out the “e” sorry) From wikipedia “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”

  • Mike Check

    One reason I’ve always liked living in China is how it’s my only way of ever experiencing Oliver Twist’s 19th Century London and/or Blade Runner’s future Los Angeles.

    Blade Twister: The story of an orphan boy, growing up on the mean streets of Chongqing, hired by the cops to keep them in business and do their dirty work, break debtors’ knees, beat mouthy hookers, knock-off pesky Brits, all with cool emotionless robot precision. Written by Philip K. Dickens

  • lonetrey

    Wow, fuck those stupid Chinese idiots (the ones criticizing the publications of data, not all the commenters). Yeah, we Americans may have embarrassed you a little bit, but that’s no reason to throw a bitch-fit, right?

    Besides, you guys did it to yourselves, with your own pollution. They might even want to thank us to calling them out on it; maybe they will try to improve now, eh?

  • Rod

    I’ve always wondered – how do you tell the difference between smog and fog?

    • Snarl

      By the scent and color. In most cities in China, the smog has a yellow tint. In most cities in America, the smog smells like car exhaust fumes. Fog is white or grey and is perceivably damp.

    • bigj

      Fog don’t give me lung cancer.

      • Dawei

        It does not help with your grammar either :)

        • firbert5

          That’s just the smog. He’s color-blind.

  • Rick in China

    I find the Chinese interpretation of the Vienna convention HILARIOUS. It’s so overstepping it’s baffling…. how could publishing weather data be an infiltration of internal affairs! I really would like a “logical explanation”, even if it’s garbage logic as would be expected.

    “Showing the world/our own citizens the air quality above bits of our land may result in people being unsatisfied with our ability to regulate (cough) (both literal and figurative) the safety within our borders for domestic and foreign citizens because they’ll realize the information we publish is likely full of (cough, literal) shit. How dare you.”

    • tai wai

      “Showing the world/our own citizens the air quality above bits of our land may result in people being unsatisfied with our ability to regulate (cough) (both literal and figurative) the safety within our borders for domestic and foreign citizens because they’ll realize the information we publish is likely full of (cough, literal) shit. How dare you.”

      More or less. Managing public opinion is a huge part of their “internal affairs.”

      That is why there are never any problems!

  • D. Tective

    You know you can never be trusted when you hide/lie about the weather reports…

  • DeVitaVackra

    Don’t forget to buy your air purifier!

  • John

    Guangzhou’s bad, but not that bad. Not a good day for flying your kite

  • Tommy

    Why no translation of quotes supporting the Chinese government?

  • tai wai

    Wu (Xiaoqing, a vice environmental minister,) said it isn’t fair to judge Chinese air by American standards because China is a developing country and noted that U.S. environmental guidelines have become more stringent over time.
    The standard China uses “takes into account the level of our current stage of development,” Wu said.

    http://news.yahoo.com/china-tells-us-stop-reporting-beijings-bad-air-055535944–finance.html

    5000 YEARS OF HISTORY
    STILL A DEVELOPING COUNTRY

    Have your cake and eat it too.

    • wacky

      china is still a developing country and that is a fact.

      • A-Dog

        China is still a developing country by choice. They have enough money and manpower to modernize EVERY factory and power plant in the entire country five times over. The fact that they don’t enforce their own environmental laws doesn’t make them a developing country. It makes them inept when it comes to law enforcement.

        • Pseudotriton

          Ha! A country can be “developing” (AKA low per capita GDP) by choice. Now I’ve heard everything!

  • SteveLaudig

    Yes, because if the US government doesn’t like the report, it will drone murder you, long distance and by remote control. Air quality takes on a different meaning if you are afraid to go outside to say, a funeral, because you are a young man who is of military age in Pakistan. Air quality only has meaning to the living. the US is systematically murdering innocent civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen… and soon elsewhere.

    • Bryan

      Don`t worry, America will save you from the Radical Muslims, just like it did from the Commies, Nazis/Japs, Space Aliens and, from yourselves.

  • Johnny

    Haha! Yeah China, you may report on U.S. air quality and water quality also! In fact, report on the quality of everything from food to people around the world and then compare them to China. Lets all see the truth and stop with the lies and deception that has sadly become an acceptable standard in the land of Mao…

  • wacky

    what interest china has on reporting US air quality??

    what interest US has on reporting china’s air quality??

    • Mike Check

      Since air and water pollution know no boundaries I say that criticism of it should always be fair game, even if it’s hypocritical. The US’s criticism of Beijing’s air pollution is great for fighting aginst the same thing in the US. Even if US air pollution is less than China’s, there are always morons trying to soften regulations and pollute more. Now greens can compare US air quality ratings to those in Beijing and shame people into change… ideally.

      • wacky

        i have not read any news about air pollution in china has spread to the US or air pollution in US has spread to china.

        • Jerry

          wacky, here is a news snippet. From the LA Times Greenspace Blog:

          Smog in the Western U.S.: Blame China?
          January 20, 2010

          Ozone from Asia is wafting across the Pacific on springtime winds and boosting the amount of the smog-producing chemical found in the skies above the Western United States, researchers said in a study released Wednesday.

          The study, published in the journal Nature, probes a phenomenon that has puzzled scientists in the last decade: Ground-level ozone has dropped in cities thanks to tighter pollution controls, but it has risen in rural areas in the Western U.S., where there is little industry or automobile traffic.

          The study, led by Owen R. Cooper, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Colorado, examined nearly 100,000 observations in the free troposphere — the region two to five miles above ground — gathered from aircraft, balloons and ground-based lasers. …

          http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2010/01/ozone-smog-air-pollution-greenhouse-gases-china-pollution-owen-r-cooper-kathy-law.html

          I originally heard about Chinese ozone being found on Mount Rainier in Washington State.

          • Jerry

            Wacky, you can check this out at the Seattle Times from 2006:

            http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002943714_asianair21m.html

            An import from Asia: Bad air
            By Warren Cornwall
            Seattle Times staff reporter
            Friday, April 21, 2006 – Page updated at 12:00 AM

            On the day a Boeing 747 delivered Chinese President Hu Jintao to Everett this week, a tiny twin-propeller airplane loaded with electronic instruments lifted off from the same airport, looking for another delivery from China: dirty air.

            Toxic mercury from Asian power plants. Ozone produced by growing fleets of Chinese cars. Smoke from burning Siberian forests. It all rides the jet stream across the Pacific Ocean and lands in places as remote as the Olympic mountains, scientists are discovering.

            Most pollution here is still from local sources, and much of the Asian pollution is thought to reach the Northwest only in the spring because of seasonal weather patterns. But some local problems — mercury in fish in local lakes, for example, or the haze that rings Mount Rainier — could have Asian connections.

            While local air-quality officials aren’t worrying, federal scientists say the influx of bad air can exacerbate West Coast air-quality problems, especially as countries such as China rapidly industrialize.

            “Environmental issues are really now a global concern, there’s no question about that,” said Professor Dan Jaffe, an atmospheric chemist at the University of Washington’s Bothell campus.

            Using a cramped Beechcraft Duchess airplane launched from Everett’s Paine Field, Jaffe and his team of researchers have been continuing a yearslong search for international pollution to gauge how serious the problem is.

            Now the hunt is getting a big boost with the addition of two huge, state-of-the-art planes, the first concerted federal effort to decipher how the air floating from Asia carries pollutants to America. …

  • Foreign Devil

    Look at all the Chinese commentators making excuses for their horrible air conditions when the US embassy publishes their readings. Yet if one of their own points out the poor air conditions. .they are all in agreement that something needs to be done.

    • Bordem

      I agree. They also made excusese for things like the baby milk scandal. Seems there are always reasons why China fucks up on a regular basis in regards to public health, foreign policy and self dignity. A pity…

  • Saving face?

    What is the issue here? Is the concern that weather reporting information are incorrectly reported? If so, shouldn’t it be a matter of rectifying of why the weather data reporting is different so that the people will benefit from the information.

    What is there to hide?

    This is weather reporting. It is not a national secret. If it is a smog day, it is a smog day.

  • Dr SUN

    Missionaries are willing to work for nothing, for their salvation and the glory of their God.

  • Dr SUN

    Missionaries are willing to work for nothing, for their salvation and the glory of their God.
    They have a bad history of F765ing countries up.

  • Jerry

    Whether or not there is smog, whether or not it is reported by the Chinese government, the CCP, the US government or whoever, the issue is the impact of the pollution on the Chinese people and the expats who live in China.

    The WHO considers 25 µg/m³ to be the maximum exposure to 2.5 micron particulate matter. Beijing PM2.5, according to the measurements taken at the US embassy, is regularly 150 – 300 µg/m³. That is 6 to 12 times higher than the WHO max standard. More than occasionally, the measurement exceeds 400 µg. I have seen measurements over 500.

    So what are the effects of 2.5PM. Particulate matter which is 2.5 micron (a micron is 1,000,000th of a meter, a micrometer) lodges deep in the lung. It can not be swept out. Too much 2.5PM in the lungs leads to lung disease, asthma, COPD, emphysema, cancer and heart disease.

    So argue all you want about the reporting of PM2.5 by the US Embassy. Your lungs are screaming. Your lungs could not care less about the politics. Stop treating the lungs like a garbage dump.

    We can then go on to discuss the effects of ozone, NOx, CO, CO2 and SO2 on human health and the environment.

  • fred

    When will they understand, its not the information, but the reaction that is shameful, when you act ashamed, you write the story yourself.

  • JT

    Wow. So many of you think it’s awful that the US reports air quality in Chinese cities. Should you not be more concerned that your government doesn’t want you to know the truth about something as basic albeit severely important as air quality?!?! You people are crazy. Seriously cray-cray.

  • Justin Thyme

    I recall when some athletes with the 2008 Olympics arrived in Beijing with black masks for protection against the noxious air there it causes such an uproar with the Chinese, asking them “what are you trying to say about China!” And the very citizens of the city wear them all of the time. China is so hypocritical and full of itself. Obviously the reports from the US Embassy show what lies the Chinese air quality reports are, the same way traffic accident reports have been shown to be utterly false by external research. LIARS! FRAUDS!

  • jeffli

    Beijing is pretty bad for pollution, Its no secret is it? can not blame the mongolian sand storms for everything.

    piped water is full of organisms because its recycled and as usual there are quality issues with the recycling of water, ear infections from showering!

    why ?= saving money at the water recycling plant, no disinfectant, over use of osmosis filters, no fluoridation. It is still very much a third world city.

    upset about a pollution report? Oh shut the fuck up!
    go do something more useful like improve the milk situation!!!

  • deluca

    The argument that there’s no such thing as a continuous Chinese civilization because two separate ethnic groups invaded, ruled, and influenced China is flawed. With that argument the English do not have a continuous civilization. They were invaded, ruled, and influenced by the Romans and the Normans. Did English civilization stop developing when the Romans took over? Or when the Normans took over? Should they not count that as part of their development or history? They took things from the Romans and the Normans and made it English. Just like other civilizations have done around the world. The fact is that the Mongolian and Manchurian rulers became more Chinese than the other way around.

  • TB

    Why does the Chinese gov’t care if the data is published to Twitter? Twitter is blocked in China.

  • Cina`s diplomat in US should measure Barium oxide on american rain as the result the illegal chemspray done secretly by US goverment to dumbdown their citizens then publicly publish that finding !

    • dim mak

      Ya dude those chemtrails and fluoridated water are turning us into drones so the Reptilians can sell us as slaves to the Illuminati’s one world government

      • moop

        haha, mega-burn. chem trailers are bat-shit crazy. i’ll be over here playing my haarp

    • whiskersthecat

      Haha one time I was swimming in the pool in the back yard. I was underwater, swimming about, but then I realized that HEY! I am a human being! I need oxygen to survive. So I swam up to the top and took in a deep breath. Then I made a 45 on my trigonometry quiz because unbeknownst to me…there was a Delta Airlines 727 flying overhead and I got a biiiiig lungful (just one lung) of chemicals! It made me so dumb and I had to study hard to learn everything again!

  • bscalled

    china should just let this one go because they look bad trying to cover it up – besides, most people (in china & outside) already know the air is bad simply because they can see it

  • Wayne

    The Chinese government has a massive inferiority complex.

  • Doug

    “Keep them foolish, keep them hungry”

  • Doug

    Why is everyone lumping China as one. There are smart and dumb Chinese just like any other place on Earth.

    The government is the problem. It’s ALWAYS been the ruling party’s problem.

    The government wants harmony and the only way to do that is through censorship and control. Keeping the masses foolish and hungry enough to allow for a steady growth. That’s not to say it doesn’t work. Look where China is now. Just like Singapore’s meteoric rise from a silly island to a significant player in Asia China wants to use a benevolent authoritarianism to rule the country. It might work on peasants and uninformed city folks but to scholars and international “Chinese people” who have access to real knowledge know the realities of other societies know otherwise.

    But the problem is: Internet and pervasive media vs absolute power at the top.

    People who comment on this board don’t know what they are talking about. How many can claim to know how officials are elected in China? Please let’s all raise our hands. If you don’t know the problem, you can’t begin to offer any solutions. All you end up doing is complain and whine. You’re not helping.

    It’s the idiotic officials and the even more idiotic assistants, deputies, bureaucrats,etc. that call all the shots. Chinese citizens don’t have a say on how an official gets a nice kick-back for allowing a polluter here another apartment complex there. IT’S ALL ABOUT MONEY. FOLLOW THE PAPER TRAIL…and you will find the source of the corruption, pollution, all most ills of this country.

    So, don’t call all Chinese stupid (of course there are exceptions) but let’s just say they are misinformed by those very same idiots who steer this vast ship they call –China. Well, at least they try.

  • bomber

    ” In the face of Western culture, people like this not only blindly worship it, they also unconsciously spiritually kneel down before it.”

    Imbecile. Western culture is objectively superior to all others. If you don’t agree, lose your iphone, abandon your flat, then cut off your balls and become a taijian. Go back to the good old days of torture, superstition and fear.

    The wumao are [correctly] pointing out that other nations suffered pollution while they were industrializing. What they don’t get is the scale. Scale matters. Damage that was done in the west was quickly recovered from. will it be the same case here?

  • 武者修行

    China media plays dangerous game.

    US media also play it’s citizens but at least they try to candy coat a lie that follows through logic and reason.

    China does crazy shit that make you sit there and ponder.

    For instance, on the Chinese news broadcasts, they would often recite different temperature in different cities around the world. And they are almost 100% always inaccurate.

    So inaccurate and so consistently done that you know for a fact it was on purpose.

    As exactly why China always display weather conditions inaccurately to it’s citizens is a big mystery to me till this day.

  • windekresstard

    I don’t believe that the US government was trying to make a fool of anyone. As a person who wants to travel to places like China and Europe and all over, I feel it’s my right to know the conditions of the place I’m visiting. If PM is 2.5 I’d like to know so I may get myself the protection needed.
    Perhaps I’m overlooking the point here, but I see no problem with this.
    Also in response to someone saying the US condones things like Japan leaking nuclear waste into the ocean but then worries about global warming. I’d like to say a couple things to that. 1) The situation was life or death. If doing this would save the lives of millions, wouldn’t you consider options that were morally bending? 2) That was something the government talked about, not the people of the US. People of the US worry about global warming and even when telling our officials that it’s a terrible idea and we should NOT do something like let a nuclear problem leak into the ocean, they aren’t going to listen if they have their minds made up on what they want. It’s a fault in our diplomatic system, yeah. But don’t think that every official in the US represents the ideals of the entire country. It would be in a perfect world but we are by far perfect. We are not anything near it even :\

  • Jerry

    I really could not care less about whether or not Chinese civilization has been around continuously for 5,000 years or whatever. I am Jewish but I certainly don’t wear the continuity of our culture/civilization on my shoulder. Big deal

    I hope you guys have had fun writing all your postings. Because if you wrote with the hope of educating readers and posters alike, I for one got bored with your game of trivial, meaningless, esoteric pursuit and insults. I would see your postings and go ya-da-da-da-da.

    In the meantime, Chinese people are choking on the air with their lungs screaming. The airborne pollutants are causing serious health concerns in China, reporting or not, no matter how long Chinese culture has been around. Waterborne toxins and toxins in food and drugs are maiming and killing Chinese people. Their bodies are screaming.

    I think some of you need to get your priorities straight.

  • Eidolon

    Alan, the term ‘Han Chinese’ is not analogous to ‘Soviet.’ The Soviet Union existed for less than a century. ‘Han Chinese’ have existed for eons – the ethnonym has been used to refer to people in North China for at least 1,500 years, and this is well validated by historians.

    Saying ‘Han Chinese’ is analogous to ‘Soviet’ = saying ‘French’ is analogous to ‘Soviet.’ Rui is not Chinese, and his pontification as a foreigner external to the Chinese body politic is obviously not reflective of how Chinese conceive of themselves. ‘Han Chinese’ is both a living and a historical ethnic identity, formed on the same basis that other nations were formed – out of the ashes of smaller tribes and states.

    It is not that I disagree with the assessment that all nations are political constructs, but singling out Han Chinese and pretending that it is the USSR v2 is disingenuous. What the PRC got from the USSR was the idea of a multi-ethnic nation of 56 minorities – in that, ‘Chinese’ nationality is analogous to ‘Soviet’ nationality. But ‘Han Chinese’ ethnicity predates the PRC and the USSR by the stretch of eons. Political unification in China proper was achieved in 200 BC when the Qin emperor destroyed the other Warring States, and consolidated when the Han emperor put in place an unified system that endured for the next 500 years. From that time forth, China proper has spent longer united than divided, and it is from political unity that nations are forged.

    I hate it when people cherry pick Chinese history in the service of their own private agendas. Dim mak is guilty of this, but so is Rui, and so is Alan.

    History is not a fruit stand that lets you pick and choose what you want to digest. You have to ingest it in its entirety, or not at all.

  • kodi

    Americans offer a reasonable response and the leaders are offended haha! What a bunch of children disguised as old grandpas. They seriously act like children. Trying to hide the obviously dangerous pollution levels. If anything the concealment of this data is hurting Chinese people more than it is helping. What a selfish administration.

Personals @ chinaSMACK - Meet people, make friends, find lovers? Don't be so serious!»