Westerners Never Called Chinese ‘Sick Men of Asia’, Reactions

Bruce Lee and the cracked tablet that says: Sick Men of East Asia.

From QQ:

Westerners Didn’t Say Chinese People are the Sick Men of East Asia

Every time during the Olympic Games, when our compatriots win medals, words like “Sick Men of East Asia” would definitely be wildly used by the domestic media, especially in 2008, when headlines like “From Sick Men of East Asia to Olympic Sports Power” and “Beijing Olympic Games Forever Ends Discriminative Label ‘Sick Men of East Asia’” could be seen everywhere. This time at the London Olympic Games, the Chinese delegation is shining with exploits, and there are many similar news reports as well.

This is actually a misunderstanding——the West used “Sick Man” to describe the Chinese government of the late Qing Dynasty for its terribly stagnated political reforms, but our compatriots strangely interpreted it as a certain “discrimination of physique” that the West had towards Chinese people.

Sick Men of East Asia: A National Shame of Our Own Imagination

During the rule of late Qing Dynasty, the Western media called China a “Sick Man”, it never had any intention to discriminate Chinese people’s physical quality. In fact, it was we Chinese who associated “Sick Man” with our physical quality.

[…]

In fact, up till today, “Sick Man” is still a very popular phrase in the Western world, similar headlines can be seen everywhere: “Germany: The Sick Man of Europe?” (1997), “The Sick Man of Asia” (2002), “Nigeria’s Sick Man Democracy” (2008)… in all of these uses, not a single one is targeted at people’s physical quality.

[…]

When the West called China a “Sick Man” during the rule of the late Qing Dynasty, not only did it have nothing to do with Chinese people’s physical quality, the suggestions of “satire” or “mockery” were also never in it.

[…]

But around the years of 1903, Chinese intellectuals, represented by Liang Qichao, suddenly forcibly twisted the meaning of the West’s “Sick Man Theory”. In The Theory of New People he published that year, Liang Qichao used “Sick Men” for the first time to describe all Chinese–“the people nationwide are lifeless as sick men”.

In the press circles of the late Qing Dynasty, when talking about influence, almost no one could compete with Liang Qichao. Therefore, as soon as The Theory of New People was published, it was widely spread. Using “Sick Man” to describe compatriots‘s weak physical quality had also became a fashion. In An Alarm to Awaken the Age that Chen Tianhua wrote in 1903 he said: “When the foreigners don’t call (Chinese) Sick Men of the East, they call us a barbaric lowly race”. In 1905, a novel called The Flower in the Vicious Sea was published, its author publicly signed as “Sick Man of East Asia” (real name Zeng Pu). The Flower in the Vicious Sea was very popular, a top best-seller of the time, and the name/expression “Sick Man of East Asia” also spread quickly.

[…]

Conclusion

1. The West did, once up a time, use “Sick Man” to describe China, but the description was limited to the Chinese government’s decline in power and its political reform failures, and not Chinese people’s physical quality. Quite to the contrary, it’s we Chinese who associated “Sick Men of East Asia” with our physical quality. In other words, it’s a “national shame” of our own imagination.

2. Can the Olympic Games end the “Sick Men of East Asia” self-imagined shame? Whether it is from the angle of the original meaning of “Sick Man” (political reforms), or from our fellow countrymen’s self-imagination (the problem of people’s physical quality), the answer I’m afraid is not optimistic. The former, the Nationwide Sports System [a government policy for the development of China’s international athletic competitiveness] itself is an outdated system that needs to be reformed. The latter, as a country that wins a lot of gold medals, our people’s physical quality can’t even compare with Japan and South Korean people, never mind Europe and North America. In this sense, the label of “Sick Men of East Asia” probably won’t be very easily removed.

People during the Chinese Qing Dynasty smoking opium.

Late Qing Dynasty opium addicts. “Westerners used opium to poison our countrymen’s bodies” and “Westerners ridiculed our countrymen as the sick men of Asia”. Contemporary textbooks have regarded both as cause and effect. However, this logic ignores the fact that the vast majority of opium within the country in modern times is domestically produced and not imported.

Comments from QQ:

腾讯南通市网友 轻功云上睡:

If [the foreigners] didn’t, I’d call myself a “Sick Man of Asia” now, not only to remind myself, but also to alert/warn my fellow countrymen, especially those public servants [government officials] who only sing praises of the country!!!

腾讯武汉市网友 嘎吧子王国:

In this harmonious age of blaming everything on Mao Zedong, the Chinese people have been identified by these people as a race that pours shit on themselves, haha…
Next, they’ll write an article and say the “No dogs and Chinese allowed sign” sign was placed by the Chinese themselves?

腾讯温州市网友 剑:

Just what is Tencent‘s “History” column trying to say? I think years later when the post-80s generation has died off, you’ll be saying the Nanjing Massacre was something our countrymen completely imagined, because the future nao can will just like the majority of the frightening post-00s generation today and say this is historical fact. Wake up, those nao can who want to know about the truth in history, would you rather not believe the words of our own ancestors and instead go believe in this so-called historical fact? I’m really suspicious of the truth of this “History” column [suspicious of its motives or who is behind it]!!!

腾讯北京市网友 天☆之☆骄☆:

The writer of this article and those who support him should be called Chinese traitors! Complete nonsense, confusing black with white, blaspheming our countrymen! Have you ever thought of [China’s] history of humiliation [at the hands of foreign powers]? You so-called scholars! Shame on you!

腾讯黑龙江省网友 蛋疼的活着:

Chinese always have this victim mentality, which is the mentality of the weak, blaming everyone and everything but oneself, pathetic behavior. The line in that Hong Kong movie has it right: “A man needs to be strong himself”.

腾讯南京市网友 锐:

The dog brains of certain extreme patriots/nationalists are turning and about to start spouting invectives.

腾讯菏泽市网友 李:

Another Shi Ping [a Chinese scholar who changed his nationality to Japanese], why don’t these fucking Chinese traitors just die out?

腾讯网友 永远是朋友:

Since you are so smart and understand English, why didn’t you tell Chinese people 100 years ago that they misunderstood? We Chinese people must be so stupid, after so many years, we still haven’t learned foreign languages.

腾讯北京市网友 上凡:

This column is intentionally inverting black and white [distorting the truth, inverting right and wrong, misrepresenting the facts].

腾讯网友 放羊小子:

Yet another traitor appears.

Poll results for an article on Tencent's QQ web portal investigating the history of "sick man of Asia".
Two polls were included on this column. Below is a translation of the the results seen on the left:

Have our countrymen gotten rid of the “Sick Man of Asia” label?

Yes
1,195 votes
8%
Not yet
15,035 votes
92%

What do you think of the quality of this week’s special topic?

  • Very good, will continue reading the History column.
    2,895 votes (36.49%)

  • Not bad, after reading I learned something new.
    979 votes (12.34%)

  • Boring, waste of my time.
    718 votes (9.05%)

  • Crap, after reading I just want to beat the shit out of the editor.
    3,342 votes (42.12%)

What do you think?

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  • thetruth

    The first yeah
    no more sick times

    • XiaoHei

      Beat me by a minute. You deserve the Gold!

  • XiaoHei

    I agree.

  • Well, that’s depressing.

    • Stu

      Yeah, the translated comments are effectively saying ‘you mean you actually looked this stuff we Chinese tell ourselves up? Traitor!’ But on the other hand, apparently nearly half of survey fillers-in dug it at least a bit.

      The question ‘have we got rid of the sick man of Asia label?’ is pretty funny though, considering the point of the article is that it’s largely a label the Chinese people managed to give themselves, and at least nowadays is barely recognised at all abroad…

      • Stu

        Oh, and while I’m commenting, what the hell’s up with
        “as a country that wins a lot of gold medals, our people’s physical quality can’t even compare with Japan and South Korean people, never mind Europe and North America”?
        Even the mythbustin’, research-doin’ article writer comes back in the end to an essentialist idea of competition between nations. I was going to add that, while the comments are depressing, at least there are people questioning these myths- and it’s the utterly unquestioned myths that are the most depressing. And the end of this article turns out to be a good example.

        • anon

          I haven’t read the entire Chinese article, only the excerpts translated into English above, so my impression is limited to that. I think the article argues something but is seen as trying to debunk something greater, and runs afoul for that reason.

          There’s “what did Westerners mean when they called China a “sick man” back then. Then there’s “what’s the nature of contempt and discrimination that Chinese people perceive as coming from Westerners?”

          The article sets out to explain the former but ends up suggesting too much about the latter, which I think contributes to some of the resistence.

          When Chinese people think of Westerners calling them the sick men of Asia or China the sick man of Asia, they’re not thinking about a newspaper headline, they’re unfortunately thinking about the overall bias and contempt that they feel the Western media and Westerners have against China and its people.

          In many ways, this is a manifestation of a victim and inferiority complex. In many other ways though, its not unfounded and thus not entirely illegitimate. Westerners do and have a history of deriding China and the Chinese, either as barbarians or perhaps a once-great civilization that has waned in the face of rising Western civilization.

          So you can prove that the original meaning of the term does not suggest everything it is now inaccurately assumed to suggest, but it you can’t prove that Chinese people don’t have plenty of reasons to feel the West looks down on them and they have to prove themselves somehow to regain respect in others’ eyes.

          The “sick man of Asia” label has therefore become shorthand for how the West sees China, in Chinese eyes. It’s a generalization, with all of the unhelpful ramifications of such, but as other proponents of generalizing argue, there’s a basis for it.

          The other part of this article that I find awkward is trying too hard to limit the Chinese interpretation of “sick man of Asia” as being about their physical bodies. That’s not true and never was. The Chinese people did not interpret the label as literally talking about their physiques. They (including Liang Qichao and Chen Tianhua) understood it then that it was metaphorical, that it was about the state of their nation and society. Chinese people now understand it as metaphorical even more. When they bring it up now, it is not used to say “our ‘physical quality’ is fine!” Rather, it’s used to say “we can compete and win too” as a nation that has fallen behind and is now trying to catch up.

          Therefore, I think the article sabotaged itself a bit in that characterization. It borders on being a straw man argument. It debunks something Chinese people didn’t believe.

          • Stu

            Yeah, I agree with this. It’s all worth examining to work out how much is true, but the article does seem to leap to a wider conclusion. It’s like the ‘no dogs or Chinese’ sign mentioned in the comments- the only known sign did list both, but as separate regulations, so it didn’t really conjure up the ‘Chinese-dogs’ equivalence that people got highly upset about. But that’s certainly not to say that there wasn’t a lot of anti-Chinese racism, just that the ways it was expressed tend to get… mythologised. And the ‘sick man’ myth serves a pretty clear function- make a strong nation.

            About bodies- not sure about that. There was a strong movement for modern physical education and I find it hard to believe nobody involved in that referred to the ‘sick man’ idea. Also, up there you have opium smoking- this connection to physical addiction or weakness obviously occurred to the blogger or the Chinasmack guys, and I imagine it was around at the turn of the century too. And there’s Bruce Lee- physical fitness literally smashing the ‘sick man’ label.

          • L

            Nicely written!

          • ChinaSportsNerd

            I agree with almost all of this response, but I must interject and say that (as Stu had suggested) the physical education movement in the Republican period, as well as the PRC state-sponsored sports programs, began on the premise of this “sick man” narrative. Now, this meant two things: on the one hand, as you say pointedly, it has to do with the “we can compete!” as a nation on the world stage – I agree with that. On the other hand, there was a notion that the population of bodies within the nation were *also* weak and “behind” more “developed” nations. Physical education and training one’s body (or having the state force you into programs to do that in PRC schools) were entirely about making the bodies of Chinese citizens stronger, healthier, etc, justified through the “sick man” narrative. In other words, it was not just a metaphorical notion (although that was certainly also true as the “sick man” was also a metaphor for the body politic), but it also came to represent a larger body of (literally) weak physical bodies. It’s not for nothing that one of the first slogans uttered by Mao in favor of 体育 was “发展体育运动, 增强人民体质” (develop/promote tiyu (physical culture, sports) activities, strengthen the physiques of the people”). Almost all the literature on sports and physical culture in the early PRC claimed that with the CCP’s rise to power, China – and very soon Chinese peoples’ 体质 – would no longer be 东亚病夫 (“sick man of East Asia”).

          • anon

            I understand what you’re saying but I still think even literal calls for healthier stronger Chinese bodies/physiques were premised not on their interpretation of Westerners literally remarking about the Chinese physique but a metaphorical understanding that a population of healthy and strong bodies signifies a healthy and strong nation.

            Westerners say we’re sick, so let’s improve our bodies.

            vs.

            Westerners say our country is sick, so let’s improve everything about us so they won’t say that, including our bodies.

            I’m not sure if this seems like too subtle of a difference but I simply do not think the Chinese leaders who pushed for these programs were so daft as to think think “sick man” was ever literally referring to simple physique that could be refuted by improving physiques. They knew, as you agree, that its about the whole. They also knew that certain fields like athleticism and especially international athletic competition would be stages for them to show China’s improvement, progress, and revival.

            I think what bothers me is that the suggestion that Chinese people took it literally makes Chinese people look singularly retarded. If they took the “sick man” label literally as about physiques, they wouldn’t have bothered throwing the best Olympics they could to showcase everything else that has improved in China. They would’ve just been content to win the most medals.

            Fostering a physically healtheir population was never seen as a direct answer to the “sick man” label, which I’m worried you’re bordering on suggesting, but merely part of the answer or part of the response to prove that China will not be the sick man of Asia but instead be a strong, healthy nation in terms of economics, social stability, and yes, even standard of health and living.

          • anon

            I should clarify that I know the “sick man of Asia” was and is often used (such as in news headlines mentioned above) as motivation for promoting ahtleticism and better physical health in China, or in juxtaposition to China’s successes in those areas. What I’m saying is that the usage in such instances should not be taken as evidence that the Chinese actually thought the “sick man” label was literally about and limited to their physiques. Such a suggestion is what I think would be painting the Chinese as retarded. They’re not that stupid. Just as the original use of the phrase was metaphorical, the Chinese use of the phrase is also metaphorical, to show the label that China is trying to throw off through their progress and successes. The fact that the Chinese have used the phrase in non-ahtletic or physical health contexts alone is sufficient to know that the Chinese do not see that phrase as being solely about “physical quality”.

          • ChinaSportsNerd

            No, I really do agree with you about the importance of the “sick man” label as metaphorical.

            I also think that, generally speaking, you’re right about the fact that it was not about a physically healthier population *on its own terms* (hence statements in the early PRC criticizing the earlier period as only being “体育而体育” and not “体育为人民服务” or 为祖国, etc). My point was simply that the phrase itself was used to promote these physical education programs, which I think your original message implied (even if the point was always already about “the whole nation”) but you’ve now better clarified to state that that is not what you mean, so thank you. For example, this was not clear:

            ” They (including Liang Qichao and Chen Tianhua) understood it then that it was metaphorical, that it was about the state of their nation and society. Chinese people now understand it as metaphorical even more. When they bring it up now, it is not used to say “our ‘physical quality’ is fine!” Rather, it’s used to say “we can compete and win too” as a nation that has fallen behind and is now trying to catch up.”

            Specifically, the last bit of what you say about “physical quality” was certainly not true if you read materials produced under Soviet learning in the 1950s. Many of those specifically state that the point of physical education was to raise people’s 品质 or 质量 (always, of course, their 体质) — yes of course it was always about a larger goal, when is it not? But that does not mean it was not about some kind of “quality” of people as well.

            Looking at the high socialist period I would be hesitant to paint a picture that the “sick man” label has somehow followed a straight line from the early 20th century to the present. Soviet-inspired physical education programs never talked directly about the “sick man” (yes I realize it was always in the backs of peoples’ minds, and it was used in headlines), but physical education programs themselves do indeed talk about improving the health of the overall population–by creating healthier, stronger bodies they would collectively have more efficient laborers and socialist construction. Yes, it was about creating a strong, socialist nation, but in my opinion that does not devalue some very real efforts on the parts of many Chinese tiyu experts (e.g. 马约翰) to actually create a population of healthier people.

          • chris

            hmm, that explained alot.

            When I read this article, I was like, wtf? the Chinese actually thought “sick man of Asia” referred to physique?

            Reading your bit, maybe its possible the person who wrote this article, in his experience, ran into a lot of chinese people who actually thought “sick man” refer to the physique or something.

            Well anyway, being labeled as the “sick man of Asia” is actually more insulting since it was actually based on facts – economic/government stagnation, etc rather than dumb racism.

  • Cleo

    I never think that and never actually believed that Chinese men felt that way about themselves or China but then my father never got Communist style education because he was expelled from school in the Sixth Grade to fill his “village”‘s quota for punishing the more fortunate (he had a father he had never met in America).

    Chinese media sounds more insecure than the Mainlanders I have met in and out of China.

    • I would certainly second that, and working with a) Beijingers in our webmarketing team, b) HK’ers in sales, and c) SG’poreans dotted around everywhere, with these Chinese men (if we strip out the women) I do not see race or colour and neither do they of Caucasians, Indians, Malays, Polynesians, and so on. This thread would die a death very quickly on Singapore forums, if someone had the balls to submit such subject matter… HOWEVER this is ChinaSMACK not SingaPAWS.

  • kw

    this article very confusing..
    however,i will take the conclusion point..

    1. The West did, once up a time, use “Sick Man” to describe China, but the description was limited to the Chinese government’s decline in power and its political reform failures, and not Chinese people’s physical quality. Quite to the contrary, it’s we Chinese who associated “Sick Men of East Asia” with our physical quality. In other words, it’s a “national shame” of our own imagination.

    to say that is of china’s own imagination is incorrect..west did use sick man of asia..i think that label is not discriminatory and not related physically..it’s more about how china was so weak as a nation.it’s true that the view of china people at that time was very discriminatory. i don’t think china people need to worry about that label..

    2. Can the Olympic Games end the “Sick Men of East Asia” self-imagined shame? Whether it is from the angle of the original meaning of “Sick Man” (political reforms), or from our fellow countrymen’s self-imagination (the problem of people’s physical quality), the answer I’m afraid is not optimistic. The former, the Nationwide Sports System [a government policy for the development of China’s international athletic competitiveness] itself is an outdated system that needs to be reformed. The latter, as a country that wins a lot of gold medals, our people’s physical quality can’t even compare with Japan and South Korean people, never mind Europe and North America. In this sense, the label of “Sick Men of East Asia” probably won’t be very easily removed.

    er…sure there will be some changes..in politic or society..
    i think the article is very political..
    political reform to stop being called sick men of Asia? i don’t think anyone calling china sick men of Asia any more..it’s more about nation’s strength..
    about the physical quality,china do not compared to other nation?
    what is this guy talking about?
    i think china compared well to other nation..
    ====

    I am going to comment on the photo caption.
    Late Qing Dynasty opium addicts. “Westerners used opium to poison our countrymen’s bodies” and “Westerners ridiculed our countrymen as the sick men of Asia”. Contemporary textbooks have regarded both as cause and effect. However, this logic ignores the fact that the vast majority of opium within the country in modern times is domestically produced and not imported.

    I don’t understand the first and the second part..
    westerners did used opium to gained big profit in china..
    westerners did ridiculed china and its people at that time..
    yes,opium make condition in china became worse and china became weaker.
    could be some sort of cause and effect

    but then “However, this logic ignores the fact that the vast majority of opium within the country in modern times is domestically produced and not imported.”, err…so?
    maybe i just do not understand this article at all..

    • Alexander

      In response to the last part of your point, I agree it is an ignorant statement. Opium was used for thousands of years it can be traced as far back as ancient Egypt. Secondly, drug use is a choice just like smoking cigarettes. No one forces an individual to smoke, it is that person who put the cigarette or pipe to their mouth, and it is their fault alone. To blame “Westerners” is not only an ignorant comment but plain racist. How can you generalize all the people in one region of the world and then blame them. Was every country in Europe to blame for the opium trade? Really? I didn’t know the Ukraine or Greece was to blame for the opium trade….. If not then why single out a whole region of people when not every country in that region had anything to do with it.

      Here’s the final point, the people of the past centuries were cruel, barbaric and backwards, and that is why modern people should cherish life and seek knowledge. If not, then we are just the same.

      • red scarf

        The opium trade in China is complex and is not just about Britain forcing opium into China, what about the smugglers, corrupt Chinese officials or even opium farmers in China before the first opium wars or that the Chinese were willing to do trade with foreigners but only in a Master and Vassal kind of relationship, i.e they saw all foreigners as a lower class and not as equals.

        Opium on one hand is addictive, pleasure full and dangerous, yet it was the best pain killer and medicinal plant compound around before say aspirin took to the market in China in the 1940s, something that always seems be missed

        • David

          Yeah, it’s complicated, especially given it was banned by the Qing for a while. As for your second point, that’s really interesting. I will look into it.

          • John

            Yes, the second point you are responding to is interesting. It is something that I don’t know much about, and if I have time, I would like to know more about. By the way, I think when it comes to the opium conflict (both the trade and the wars), we shouldn’t downplay the role the British played. Yes, there were definitely a lot of misunderstandings and clashes of different cultures and worldviews between Britain and China. And sure, China was not perfect and did not handle the situation in the best way possible. Yet, I still think Britain was ultimately the party that was controlling the situation. It seems to me the Qing’s decisions and policies on this matter, which included the banning and the legalization of opium, were mostly reactions to the British’s actions.

      • anon

        I don’t think kw was saying the photo caption was an ignorant statement. He was disagreeing with the suggestion the author was making. He’s saying that even though opium now may be domestically produced, it doesn’t mean the Chinese cannot resent the Westerners’ culpability in the opium trade and promoting Chinese opium use.

        Blaming all Westerners for the acts of a few is indeed a bad idea, but most of the time, it falls into the category of making generalizations, something we all do too often.

        • Alexander

          To generalize Brits, Greeks, Germans, French, Italians, Russsians, Serbs, Albanians, Swedes, Norwegians, Finns, blah blah blah…. into one group would be the same as grouping Japs, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Mongols, Thai, and Cambodians into the same group…… it would be quite ignorant….

          • anon

            Where do we draw the line? Would generalizing the Cantonese with the Shanghainese with the Northeasterners, blah blah blah, as Chinese be quite ignorant?

            What “group” we align ourselves in is based on whatever is convenient to us at the moment. The very nature of any group requires generalization. What matters is what we’re suggesting with our generalizations and how that reflects upon our own attitudes.

    • maja

      近代 probably refers to the late-Qing, at least in this case.

  • camlost

    What the superior man seeks is in himself; what the small man seeks is in others.

    • Nick in Beijing

      Confucius says: God damn modern people have twisted and abused my teachings to fit agenda. (referring to modern Chinese referring to themselves as being traditional without understanding what their own traditions dictate their lives should be)

  • GodsHammer

    As usual, the Fengqing have failed to actually keep their minds open long enough to understand the context of the article or of the original ‘Sick Man Comments’. Everything relates back to imagined slights upon manhood… there are many instances of this in other places as well, where time coupled with ill-will and vitriolic, politically minded literary deviants serve to twist the actual meaning of monikers, documents and decrees (like the ‘all men are created equal’ statement in the US declaration of independence).
    The original ‘Sick Man of Asia’ was not a comment of race, but on societal structure and function. Any true supporter of the current regime could only agree with this assessment of the Qing Dynasty , especially towards the end. Pity that the brainwashed Fengqing don’t understand these subtleties and jump at the bait in true Pavlovian response. :(

    • Hongjian

      The thing is; the fenqing arent supporters of the regime, but supporters of chinese nationalism. In some way, these both elements are tied with each other – but on the other hand, fenqing are the most vocal critics on the weaknesses of the regime, especially in times where outside powers try to contain the whole nation and not just the regime (which is never possible – one cant just cut off the head without killing the rest of the body), while the regime gives only disinterested, meek response. Just like during the Qing-Dynasty. In this case, Dr. Sun, Mao and all other revolutionaries were fengqing themselves.

      The suppossed finding that westeners are actually all pretty good and non-racist people who never meant any harm for China since they only and exclusively called the corrupt Qing-Dynasty the “Sick Men of Asia”, despite and ignoring the historical fact that they indeed treated Chinese people in the most racist manner, not to mention that they invaded China, serves no other purpose than to spin the facts so that a pathetic westernphile “public intellectual” can feel better about himselves since he deflects every foreign caused woe back at China, playing the typical game of blame the victim, so that he may not feel so conflicted anymore when sucking on the penis of the western world.

      This is nothing different than when Chinese weeaboos and japanophiles support Japanese Historical Revisionistm about the suppossed “fabrication of the Nanjing Massacre” while blaming the victim, their own country of origin, for the sake of calming their own identity crisis. These people then think that their host nations would accept them as one of their own – which will never happen, no matter how much they are making themselves into tools.

      No matter how much truth there is about the western attribute of “Sick Men of Asia” being only meant to describe the societal structure and function – in the end, noone, not even the westeners and their chinese supporters can deny that the western world lavishly exploited the this attribute of the Qing-Dynasty, to bring death and destruction over China and their very people.
      Why should any fenqing or regime supporter or serious intellectual ever question the true target of this western perception, when the direct result – the long fall of China due to foreign aggression – was and still is the same, no matter whether it was meant against the regime or the people?

      • GodsHammer

        Not really arguing against you actually, just making a wee technical point. We are talking about the TERM, not debating whether or not Europeans and Americans treated the Chinese (and all other Asians, Africans and Aborigines by the way) with total disrespect and general loathing. However, history gets rewritten by the latest chieftains…it’s a rule of history and is definitely in effect in China.
        General overt racism based on skin color actually has it’s origins in European society. Bigotry is a universal human trait, but never has it been so superficially applied. Just my 2 cents.

        • I agree that “history gets rewritten by the latest chieftains.” When most people in a country are healthy, happy, and financially secure, they tend not to consider themselves sick men.

      • Gontraf

        Granted. Nobody is denying that the “West” (remember that Russia and Japan were most definitely part of the gang) had a racist attitude towards the Chinese at the time.

        This article only aims to rectify a widely spread misconception but as usual, when challenging the beliefs of bigots one should be prepared to face silly accusations and bird names.

      • tai wai

        “weeaboos”

        Ah. I get it now. That’s why you’re such a douche. You’re a /b/tard.

        Anyway, hundreds of years of victimhood complex and persecution complex is indeed pretty “sick.”

      • right, some western people treated some chinese people bad.
        and now get over it.
        thank you.

      • moonmickey

        I never had a negative feeling whatsoever towards Chinese people and arrived with the best intentions but after a few years of their persistent blaming foreigners as a whole for anything that comes along, i’m seriously starting to wish they do crumble.

        • Rod

          I’m in the same boat. I have absorbed a lot of the negativity and xenophobia to the point where it’s starting to affect my world view. I feel like I’m developing a very cold war mentality living here.

        • Jahar

          ^This

        • Living there for a long period of time does have a habit of wearing an individual down into this person none of us (well, not the decent of us) want to be.

          • David.is.Dawei

            Hey Whiskers,
            You’re a cool cat. I have enjoyed reading about your (and many of the other interesting folks here) experiences in China to Taiwan. Many of You should have a blog.
            Cheers,
            Dave

          • mr. wiener

            one of us…..one of us.

          • Check out some of the expat misdemeanours down in Singers dudes. I think the time, tropical temperature, and testosterone turbulence creates monsters beating up cabbies, beating up random passers-by, and streaking down in Clark Quay (thus requiring Tazering by SG police). Remember TAKE A BREAK in Oceania, the US or the EU for a week or two…it’s worth it!

        • Dan

          Can you explain examples of this Rod?
          Like how it has affected you in every day life, do people say stuff to you on the street etc?.. Genuinely curious as I’ll be living in China for 3 years soon, I’ll be with my GF so maybe it will take the edge off all the negative things I’m reading about..

          • Dan

            Question is actually directed to all of the dudes above, not just Rod lol.

          • Scott

            Do not expect consideration or courtesy from strangers, and do anticipate cold-blooded indifference at best from all and even occasional hostility if you’re a foreigner. Public conduct is chaotic: people push, shove, bump and prod so don’t take offense; it is not calculated to piss you off. Chinese are loud when talking, loud in amusements, loud on the car horns, even loud when by themselves as you will discover by living in a high-rise. People will assume you are somewhat stupid, slow, lusty, yet easily amused and given to childish pleasures like dancing, making like a clown, easily given to laughter and always open to simple temptations. People will make foolish assumptions about you (coming to China to make money, or a loser who cannot cut it in the US), your country (the US is a predator fearing China’s rise), your girlfriend (immoral at best, probably lustful), and will not broach correction; whenever you take an action, for example, in business be sure to explain the reason for your action, otherwise everyone will assume the basest motives (greed, lust, selfishness) for your actions. Chinese do not pity fools and fleece each other without mercy; you’re fair game too.

            I would advise you not to suspend disbelief, do not suspend your commercial sense or experience of life, do not think you’re entering some kind of alternate reality where the Chinese of your imagination live in ceremony as quiet Confucianists pondering the profundities of life. Mainland Chinese are brash, pushy and materialistic in the extreme. Get used to it. When you do have Chinese friends and not those who want you to practice English or coach their sons and daughters, if you have Chinese friends or relatives who accept you into their extended kinship system and not for utility or profit, then you will be moved. If that happens I need not tell you any more.

          • It’ll seem like all fun and games for a while, but as you start to get use to life there, you’ll tire of being an oddity. If you live in a big city like Shanghai or Beijing, you can escape this sort, of. That’s boring, though, because the rest of China has so much more to experience.

            Hopefully none of the bad stuff happens to you. Of course you’ll run into morons who’ll cheat you, talk shit about you, make vulgar, rude comments to or about your girlfriend, etc.

            It’s not all bad, of course. Most of the problems are annoyances rather than absolutely horrible things. You’ll get into funks where you don’t want to leave the apartment and deal with the inconveniences of being an obvious foreigner, but then something will likely happen that ends the funk suddenly (beers with friends always did it for me).

            You’ll likely encounter a huge amount of people, every day, that will automatically assume you don’t understand Chinese (do you?) and will discuss you right in front of you. Sometimes they don’t even try to hide it. They’ll talk while looking you over, sometimes even pointing. I’ve had people touch the hair on my arms before. Generally it’s not that insulting except for the audacity of discussing you right in front of you, but sometimes you get some rude comments. Sometimes you get bizarre observations. For example: you order a salad, and the waitress or someone completely unrelated to your table or order will announce “oh, all foreigners are vegetarians”. Expect the contents of your shopping cart to be examined by random people.

            Basically, just expect to facepalm yourself a lot. But it’s fun. You’ll make great friends, both Chinese and foreign, and you’ll have a lot of great stuff to write home about. You’ll experience a Chinese hospital once or twice. It’s unavoidable so just go ahead and get it over with. Whether it’s your gastrointestinal tract or your respiratory system that puts you in there first is 50/50.

            Anyway, just enjoy it. Every day in China is like your first day in China. Where will you be living?

          • Scott

            Chinese are not an observant people, and are often oblivious to all but the object of their immediate concern as you will see by their conduct in public places. They are highly opinionated, most often repeating whatever is commonly said as “Everyone knows this”, or “It is true that…” when in truth it is opinion and not fact. Chinese have a sense that they are a unique people, justified by a long history, and cannot accept that others of lesser note to better. Chinese are indefatigable in their pursuit of wealth, and you will more commonly see in China persons engaged in business for the sake of business and money, long day in and long day out, not because they’re needy but because the money game excites them. Chinese are typically heavy smokers, heavy gamblers, and opportunistic. They do not commonly share the Western affinity for animals yet can dote on a pet to extremes (although I doubt they think animals are just little people in fur coats as does the average young and single American) although they feel threatened by big dogs.

            Chinese will ask you embarrassing questions (salary, attitude towards parents and siblings, e.g. “how can you leave your parents? I never could; I love my father and mother too much”) without shame, because they assume Americans are direct and shameless, and their questions are often posed to receive an expected answer that will reinforce their prejudices.

          • Scott

            Chinese humor tends to slapstick, it is not subtle, and they have no appreciation of sarcasm, so a sarcastic retort is useless on them. Self-deprecation is not their strong suit in humor, but making fun of others is always open season.

            You first encounter argumentation that seems reasoned and thought out, then encounter the same argument again and again until realizing that it is published or public knowledge. So, you can pose a question to a group and receive the same or similar answers; the same public polemic is widespread in China, and by repeating it the Chinese serve to show its assumed truth.

            Art is stylized, intricate in execution, but you may find it overly mannered and affected; modern porcelains, for example, are executed in colors that can disorient fish and blind cats; carvings in jade or wood are monotonously similar, and modern paintings are too often mawkishly sentimental with buxom young girls cuddling lambs, or big-eyed kittens executed in silk. Theater is an exception, not the Peking opera but modern drama, and I think Shanghai opera (granted that I depend on the character screen to follow the words when Mandarin is not used) is maintained by excellent performers. Some of the comics on tv are real talents, skilled vaudevillians, but you need to understand Mandarin or a regional variation to appreciate their schtick.

          • Capt. WED

            Scott ur such an expert. WOW.

            Crosstalk is all about self deprecation. It doesn’t directly make fun of people like western comedians do sometimes, not direct.

            As for you other comments: U mad?

            LOL.

          • Scott

            As an American in China you will learn about yourself and countrymen. Americans are friendly but not sociable; Chinese are extremely social, look for the excitement of crowds and the hustle-bustle as we always try to maintain a personal space. Chinese can group together in ways that would send Americans into fist fights with each other; at the Shanghai Expo Chinese would peacefully line up for as much as 6 to 8 hours to enter the Saudi Arabian pavilion while Americans find 6 to 8 minutes in any line much too long. Chinese are hospitable, very solicitous about the well-being of a guest, and will really go out of their way at great inconvenience to be sure, for example, you arrive and depart from dinner safely. Americans meet and leave people at the door. They will reserve the favoured parts of a dish for you, the guest, and can be solicitous to the point of embarrassing you in their determination to please at a social function. You will learn not to smoke, eat, play alone, but always in others’ company and with them. Chinese very much value social contacts, will often remain with a company because they feel comfortable with their co-workers, and except consideration and special treatment because of this shared experience. When inviting customers or distributors out always invite the whole staff, not just the principal, which is very much contrary to American custom.

          • Dan

            WOW. Well, I guess it’s a good job I have thick skin, I’m actually British also but I guess everyone will assume I’m American.

            whiskers, I have a very basic understanding of Mandarin, not on the level that I could pick up on people talking about me within earshot I don’t think, maybe this is a good thing.

            I will be living in Tianjin! Not a huge amount of foreigners there I’m reading.

            Thanks for the responses guys.

          • Dudes Scott & Whiskers… Nice advice – cheers… Far better than the usual Lonely Planet guides written by Aussie Caucasian females with tattoos, dreadlocks and very large rucsacs…

          • Scott

            Finally, you can weigh my detailed comments against the one-liners from Capt. WED and others that may follow, and after your three years in China see who helped most.

          • Oh, no worries. I’m American and was constantly mistaken for being a Briton. One shoe store lady told me that it was impossible for me to be an American as I have blonde hair and blue eyes, and Americans only have brown hair and brown eyes. Others thought I was Russian, but that one I never had explained to me.

            But yeah, don’t worry. It’s not like you’re going to be publicly flogged in the streets. If it was really that bad, I wouldn’t have stayed for three and a half years.

            I never made it up to Tianjin, but from what I understand, it’s large and probably has more experience with Westerners than where I lived. That’s a bonus. However, the less chances you have to spend with other foreigners, the more your Chinese will improve. There’s a bright side to everything. Just watch for vehicles on the sidewalks haha

          • Scott

            Actually Dan, because you’re British (yes, I avoided “English”;) you may do better than most of the Americans who dearly want and expect to be loved. Your cynic level may also be low enough to pay attention to advice.

          • Ah, this reminds me of the time I was walking home from work one evening, and this guy who looked centuries old rises from his chair as I walk by and says loudly/proudly “God save the queen!” and waved with a sparse-toothed grin. I wasn’t going to try and explain to this guy that I’m actually American and so the queen thing isn’t really our deal, so I just smiled and shook his hand.

          • Scott

            Whiskers the Cat:

            A class move. You did good.

          • simon

            food quality here is terrible, whiskers nailed it on the hospital thing, for me it was gastrointestinal, i’m still not fully recovered.

          • Dan

            lol Whiskers. Classic. And I’ll def be careful, seen way too much messed up dashcam footage from china on the web not to.

            Food is something I worry about! Though I’m sure we’ll be able to find places that sell food that wont have me projectile vomiting everywhere/cooked in that oil stuff.

          • My first was a month-long hacking and coughing-fest. After two tries at the hospital, they finally got me some medication that worked. Later, after treatment, still coughing like mad…I expunged this orange-sized (not exaggerating) ball of phlegm from my lungs/throat/wherever and was instantly better. Never had a problem with the pollution again except for needing to hock up gross loogies every morning.

            But don’t feel bad about the intestinal problems, China. I spent a day in the hospital here in Taipei with what the doctors described as a “incredibly severe” case of infection and inflammation of the intestines. I was pretty fucked up and it all started in the moment I got to remote-ass Lanyu Island. Which, by the way, is amazing. Definitely go there but do your absolute best to get a flight on the small, van-sized scary airplane. Just looking at the giant ferry being tossed about on the ridiculous waves, from the safety of the shore, almost made me seasick and I have a decent set of sea legs. No telling what great fishing there is on the path between Lanyu and Taiwan since everyone who makes the trip to or from the island chums up the waters with whatever breakfast and lunch they had that day.

          • My favorite places were the Lanzhou La Mian hole-in-the-wall restaurants. I have no idea what it does to a new foreigner’s intestinal tract as I discovered late, after my body had lost all respect for itself. It’s great stuff, though.

          • I have noticed over the years that a Whooping Cough type of bacteria causes a bad cough every year or two here in fairly clean Singapore (but with many PRC and other citizens resident and milling around in malls and circulating on transportation). I recommend getting the booster vaccination. TB (Tuberculosis) is not unheard of here in SG (and Indo), so it probably circulates in China. There is a booster for this. Finally the big beast is Hepatitis B, which there is a simple shot for. The bacteria potentially phlegmed up by old Chinese men causes me to give them a 2 metre radius – TB certainly exists in some occupants of poor old folks’ homes. Hope this partially helps, from another angle, although the other guys I thank, for being incredible walking “laboratories”. Salmonella and/or Norwalk ain’t nice. Cheers.

          • Kukuku

            @Dan:

            Expect confusion: People will be genuinely nice to you in a way, but extremely rude in others.

            You better get used to people clearing their throat everywhere, all the time. Also: people pissing/defecating on the street or helping their children do so in trashcans or sinks (especially at the hospital). Cooks will drop food on the floor in front of you, pick it up and put it back in the fridge. People don’t wash their hands and will want you to have that apple they’ve been playing with for about 15 minutes.

            As stated above, don’t expect courtesy. Expect to be reminded all the time how great China is and how lucky you are to be there. On a side note, you did choose to be there in the first place, so ya… Everyday you will be perfectly aware that you are a foreigner and that they -tolerate- your presence. When groups of people walk past you, you will hear “Hello?”, “laowai”, “meiguo” or just good old laughter and cackling. It’s nothing personal. After two years I can say I never felt welcome in China (although I do feel at home, oddly enough) and I shiver to think what would happen if I married a Chinese woman and had to stay in a country where I’ll always be treated as an outsider for the rest of my life. Take note that because you are a foreigner working in China, it means you are a loser who can’t find a job in your home country or you want to steal China’s wealth and become rich.

            Everyone will want to know how much money you make and how many girls you porked. If, like me, you live on the first floor, expect people to walk past your windows, stop, and glue their face to the window to observe you – day and night. Had to buy better/more curtains to get rid of the problem. You will also get weird requests from people who will want to become friends with you. 99.999999% want something out of you that is not simply friendship. Some want popularity boost by having you around, others want free English classes and others will want you to help them with their homework or university paper.

            You should also get used to the fact that you will probably become the “only sane man” of the place you’ll be working at. By that I mean that at some point in the future you will question the reality in which you live and you will find some things your coworkers tell you so ridiculous that you will believe you are the only sane man left on board. Related: Many times you will run into coworkers/people who have a very simple problem at work that requires a simple and evident fix, but you won’t dare to help because you’ll feel like you’d be insulting their intelligence if you did and you’ll feel bad in turn because you’ll be enjoying the spectacle.

            Having a Chinese girlfriend can be great and heartbreaking. Great because “Hey, asian girlfriend! OMG!”. Heartbreaking because, like friendship, the vast majority want something else from you than what you expect. Popularity boost, English classes, money and so on. Had a “girlfriend” come over for the night once and she took out her books and we all know the rest of the story.

            As stated by someone else, if you do ever get a real Chinese friend you will know when it happens. I do have a friend like that and it is just like having an extended family. You will feel respected in a way that is mutual which you won’t feel from anyone else around you. I would give my life for my Chinese friend without hesitation because I know he would do the same.

            Lastly: Be extremely careful. Because you are not part of their in-group, you are fair-game to be scammed and toyed with. Know that people who are friendly to you most probably have ulterior motives and if you do suspect that it is the case then it means you are right and should follow your gut feeling. About foreigners: while most foreigners I met are friendly, be careful not to go to the local foreigners bar all the time. People will most likely be jaded and after a few beers will be sharing their experiences. It’s a bit like reading Chinasmack, but it can get old after a while.

          • Kukuku… Many thanks as this is invaluable stuff… Honest raw facts…

          • Glen

            Hey, you guys’ responses basically summed it up. I recently wrote an entry about this and what you said was so spot-on that I had to add some of your quotes in my blog, hope you don’t mind!

          • Scott

            Glen, some acts cannot be recounted because few would believe it. Several times I have seen a mainland Chinese riding a bicycle towards a collision with a car/pedestrian/motorcycle/bicycle only to see the rider either jump from the bicycle or put their legs straight out to brace for the impact, all this rather than apply the chain brake. One time I heard a panicked voice behind me “當心!當心!” (Watch out! Watch out!) and lessening my stride looked around to see a woman wobbling on a bicycle with the child sitting behind her just graze past to turn right in front of me, not a foot of space between us. Had I not slowed down she would have hit me from the side, and her with a child riding on the bike as well. Mainland Chinese never yield the right of way and rarely have I ever seen them slow down to avoid an accident, preferring to bob and weave on the bike, even make a huge half circle rather than reduce speed. Anyone on a bicycle in Hong Kong is understood to be mainland Chinese (especially when the girl riding wears a huge sun bonnet); I witnessed one woman cut across a busy intersection in Hung Hom as Mercedes and lorries applied screeching brakes and loud horns to avoid her. She seemed oblivious.

          • linette

            ………………If, like me, you live on the first floor, expect people to walk past your windows, stop, and glue their face to the window to observe you – day and night. Had to buy better/more curtains ……………..

            kukuku..is it really that bad? The China people look at you like a museum exhibition? How horrible.

            Whiskerthecat, you travel a lot. Your life must be so fun. :) Make sure you stand up rise your hand and all hail the queen. lol.

            China gov’t should have classes that teach their people proper manners in their public school. As a matter of fact, every country should have this teaching in their public school. Also teach good sanitation practice like cover your mouth when coughing. Do not touch other people’s food with the chopsticks you are eating with. No double dipping. etc..

          • The Enlightened One

            You want my advice?

            Learn to cook and invest in a Foreman Grill (taobao, like Chinese eBay)

            Learn some Mandarin and invest in patience.

            Be friendly and sometimes ask them questions you already know just for the sake of them telling you something about their country (it makes them happy).

            Then you are pretty much set and will be cheated less.

          • Scott

            There will be a timeline to your stay. No matter if learning the language or just staying in China for work you will pass through several clear stages. First is the elation at being in a very different place among people very different from yourself, and that difference is elating and intriguing. After some months you’ll have “settled in”, the elation giving way to tacit acceptance or resignation to the situation, but you’re still eager to give it all a go. Next comes the cynicism and real dislike of certain habits that drive you nuts. After nine months – and this will be intensified when your girlfriend (I assume she’s Western like you as you intimated) has even less tolerance – comes a depression, a real funk, as you just want to get out, even if only for what you describe as a “short vacation”, but it’s really a grasp towards peoples and habits that comfort. This is a hump that some just can’t get over, when you really doubt if putting up with another minute of it is worthwhile. After the hump many just flake off and hang with other expats, putting in time until they leave. Most coming to China as interested, eager souls leave within a year with a very bad taste in their mouths.

          • Scott

            “Most coming to China as interested, eager souls leave within a year with a very bad taste in their mouths.” This is not peculiar to Westerners; overseas Chinese have the same experience, and guys from Taiwan staying for business are perhaps the best prepared. As one from Taiwan told me, to survive as an outsider (非大陸人) in mainland China one needs 本錢﹐本事﹐本尊 or self-sufficient capital, one’s own means of a livelihood, and self-respect. I agree.

            In time you’ll find that the mainland Chinese have their “loveable aspects” but you’re not ready to understand that yet.

          • Glen

            here’s a link to my blog in which i quoted scott and whiskers. I’ve also posted alot about life living in China, for a few other (not-so-negative) perspectives…
            http://glencornellblog.wordpress.com/

          • Glen, great site of yours. Keep up the good work teaching English dude – not everyone can do your job. Cheers!>/b>

      • Zappa Frank

        bring death and destruction? I sincerelly think that you miss something. Indeed they did, but for sure far less than what chinese were usually doing by themselves with their warlords…. i think on the opposite that you should be grateful to the westeners, because china needed to be opened, because they bring also a lot of new ideas and stuff that gave inspiration to men like Sun Yat Sen, that helped in the modernization that you desperatly needed… and not least if it wasn’t for westeners nowdays you would all speak japanase…

      • Charles

        @Hongjian What are talking about? You have some screwy pipe dreams going there.

        First off,has anyone here said that Westerners don’t have a history of racism? Everyone has a history of racism. Welcome to the human race. But not every group has a history of whining about how they have been abused through the ages.

        “The supposed finding that westerners are actually all pretty good…” These days “most westerners” are pretty good and decent in this respect. I don’t know about other nations, but in the States we are brainwashed against racism from the time we enter kindergarten. Are there still racists in the USA? Of course there are. However, open public racism is extremely rare, unlike in China were racism is seen as the natural order of things or righteous revenge for historical injustice. Then again, maybe you used the present tense by accident.

        “serves no other purpose than to spin the facts so that a pathetic western-phile “public intellectual” can feel better about himself since he deflects every foreign caused woe back at China”

        What are these foreign caused woes you are speaking about… please tell us! China’s woes are absolutely its own problems caused by Chinese for Chinese. I really would like to put forward one problem – really… please.

        Again, no one is saying that the some western powers didn’t attack China and do terrible things here. China did the same thing to its neighbors throughout the centuries – that is history – that is the world we live in.

        “These people then think that their host nations would accept them as one of their own – which will never happen, no matter how much they are making themselves into tools.” You are completely wrong. I grew up along side Chinese, Indians and just about every other ethnic/national group you can think of and we absolutely accepting of each other 100%. Of course we saw the differences in each other’s culture and skin tone but American society is accepts people from anywhere. For those that look a little different it may take longer for the acceptance to be complete everywhere in the country, but if you go to any major metropolis in the USA today you will find people from all over the world living and working together in nearly perfect peace and harmony.

        • anon

          Actually, I would say every group has whined about the injustices they’ve suffered. It just depends on whether or not you go looking for that whining. You’re going to see a lot of it because you have an active interest in China. Take that interest and apply it to any other group and you’ll quickly find the same resentment cropping up time to time. Even white people whine all the time about reverse discrimination. Characterizing only the Chinese as having a history of whining is more about your own subjective perceptions than a reflection of reality.

          The above is not a comment on the rest of your disagreements with Hongjian.

          • Charles

            @anon – I agree that everyone whines – and everyone has the right to complain about something or other – but China has a “culture of victim” mentality that is promoted (in unrealistic rather absurd ways) through education and popular culture. I suppose many other countries have similar situations but Chinese are experts in this area. So while I agree that subjectivity surely impacts my view of these things – I can also see beyond my rather large own nose.

      • maja

        I really think the whole article is just trying to say: “we have heard lots of things, but we should try and make an effort to know more about our relationship with the west”. I don’t think it’s trying to say “the white masters has always been so good”. why should every opinion either be a nationalistic stand or a servile ass-licking?

  • Scott

    I have been doing business and lived in China for nearly 6 years. I learned the language and I have several Chinese friends. As an Australian I have never heard the term you are referring to nor do I believe it was ever coined. I think it just a bored Journalist/blogger who has written this to try and start a new ‘saying’. Every time China does well there are many people dying to drag them down. Its old, it’s boring and you need to move on, find a new subject like “how my ass is now ruled by China since they now have all the power” those kind of stories might be interesting. Phew!!!

    • Stu

      “nor do I believe it was ever coined”

      There’s literally a picture of Bruce Lee up the top, holding a board with the phrase on. That’s next to an article which researches the phrase and how it was used by named individuals. And you… don’t believe the phrase exists?

      This is a little hard to process.

      • mr. wiener

        The original “sick man” was the ottoman empire. In Europe.
        It came to be applied to the Chinese later and [I believe] was used in particularly by the Japanese who saw it as their destiny to supplant the Chinese as the dominant power in Asia. Whether it was used widely or if the Chinese actually gave a f*ck is open to debate. Much as I love the Hong Kong cinema , as a historical reference ….it lacks credibility. Remember they were playing to the hometown audience who were feeling the first stirings of throwing off the colonial yoke [be careful what you wish for!] And were making movies with many half truths or twistings of the truth.
        If the American cinema could be taken as an example, they captured the enigma machine from the Germans, won the second world war by themselves and have saved the Earth numerous times from giant meteor strikes and alien invaders.

      • Getrealson

        I believe scott! as an Australian I have never heard it used except in a chinese Bruce Lee movie. they are talking about labels and ill-suiting names concerning chinese people. Chinese are hypocrites when it comes to name calling, racism and nationalism. prepared to tar all foreigners with the same brush when anything is done or said to them.

        couple of facts:

        Australia is South/South east of China

        Australia currently has 865,000 people who recognise themselves as chinese, experts suggest closer to 1 million with illegal workers, students and non compliance to sensus.

        Australia has never invaded China

        the bi-lateral trade between China and Australia in 2010/2011 was $105 billion

        However this does not stop Chinese from labelling me a westerner or foreigner or woman chasing english teacher and differenciating me from other people with bad habbits.

        Australians do not harbour anti chinese sentiment. As with China there is still ignorant people in Australia that blame their laziness or stupidity on anything they can including other races.

        Because most Chinese have never left China and know nothing of the wider world other than what their government let them know, they wouldn’t know this. Look at prime time television in China. Always government approved shows about the past dynasties or a never ending supply of rubbish shows with rubbish actors about Japans oppression of china then mighty china’s rising up to defeat them. (of course no mention of how the “west” help liberate them).

        Living in the past won’t help carve your future. And look within before looking to another.

        • Capt. WED

          surely you are joking.

          Every country there exist people not knowing much about land beyond. Every country has “Fox News”.

          There was an survey that pretty much 25% to 30% does not trust Chinese that much.

          Also sure there are some nationalistic shows. Majority of are not about Japan. Costume dramas are escapism shows. Watching t.v. is pretty stupid to begin with.

          Basically you can’t help it, China has a lot of stupid people.

          U mad?

          • Capt. WED

            who the hell watches Chinese t.v. LOL

            a lot of Chinese people don’t. They watch…pirated shows. U mad?

          • Getrealson

            firstly, no I’m not!

            Secondly, Fox news is american and I never mentioned news

            Third, What survey?

            Last, Um..No, I’m not!

        • anon

          The Western media doesn’t use the “sick man of Asia” phrase much anymore because its seen as derogatory now. You’ll still find it academic papers and textbooks for historical and non-derogatory intents. If you aren’t familiar with it, it just means you haven’t had much exposure to the history of the time. I think most Western history textbooks that cover that era will mention that China was called that, just as it is mentioned for the Ottoman Empire or Japan.

          Frankly, almost everyone is a hypocrite when it comes to name calling, racism, or nationalism. It might be a bit ironic that you tar them with the same brush for tarring foreigners with the same brush.

          Imperfect though it may be, “the West’ and “Westerners” generally refers to societies and people, often white, whose societies are largely influenced by Western Europe. Australia counts, and there is no lack of Australians who themselves implicitly think they’re being talked about when someone mentions the West or Westerners.

          I’ve always found admonishments of look within before looking to another interesting, not least of all because we all use it. To use it suggests we’re looking to another and judging them as being in more need of looking within than ourselves.

          • Getrealson

            “If you aren’t familiar with it, it just means you haven’t had much exposure to the history of the time.”

            Wrong!

            “Frankly, almost everyone is a hypocrite when it comes to name calling, racism, or nationalism. It might be a bit ironic that you tar them with the same brush for tarring foreigners with the same brush.”

            My response was not meant to be nationalistic, Frankly I dont care. It was meant to point out there is so called “Western” people out there that don’t percieve chinese as sick and are confused by it also. Isn’t this CHINAsmack? wasn’t the purpose of this article like most on this website to sollicit a response from westerners regarding chinese netizen knee jerk reactions.

          • anon

            Fine, you could’ve had “much” exposure to the history of that time but that exposure apparently didn’t include what others have been exposed to. That’s why you’ve never heard it used. Others have. I interpreted your declaration that you’ve never heard it to suggest you agree with Scott in thinking the phrase “sick man of Asia” was never coined and somehow fabricated by a bored journalist/blogger. I’m saying that’s not the case, that the phrase was most certainly coined and quite historical.

            Pointing out that there are Western people out there who don’t perceive the Chinese as sick is well and good when you’re faced with a Chinese person who has gone overboard with their generalizations. No disagreement there from me. I was myself just pointing out what I found to be ironic in the comments you were making.

            chinaSMACK, in my opinion, is a site whose translation of news and comments from China ends up soliciting equally knee-jerk reactions from, well, mostly Westerners.

          • Getrealson

            Very clever mate! I see how you work now. I only agree with scott that as an Australian also I have never heard it used other than a movie. I don’t think that it was “coined” by this journo.

            I guess I could have worded it better.

            opinions are like assholes – Everyones got one and it usually stinks.

          • mr. wiener

            ……everyone’s got one and they think everyone else’s stinks worse than their own…..
            anon can be a bit of a dag sometimes.

    • Jahar

      Yeah I never heard of it in Canada either. My best guess is it’s used here to stir up nationalism. Although, I don’t doubt it’s origins, I do doubt it’s use in the west.

      • If someone called China (or anyone else) “the sick man of Asia”, they would get laughed at for using such a pretentious combination of words. Who in the hell describes anything in that manner except for intellectual-wannabe overweight douchebags who only wear black, small fedoras, transition lenses, fledgling little goatees, and shirts with dragons or blue flames and shit on them?

        • I still can’t believe this story splashes an image of xylophone-ribbed opium addicts to readers, set against the “Shanghai Calling” backdrop… Most interesting… CAN C.S. BRING ON THE NEXT STORY P-L-E-A-S-E!!!

  • Hongjian

    What a bullshit article. Typical of those pretentious western-cocksucking ‘public intellectuals’ of today’s chinese society.

    Calling the Qing-Dynasty the Sick Man of Asia wasnt any different in calling the ordinary Chinese guy the Sick Man of Asia, since China evidently rose and fell with their respective dynasties and goverments. Not a single Chinese community could say that the general nation and people are still well off, when Mongol hordes, Japanese and Western Imperialists ravaged the country due to the weakness of the respective Dynasty and govt. in preventing that from happening to the nation.
    If the CCP-dynasty one day falls due to its own incompetence and corruption – no matter how strong-willed and physically fit all these wannabe Lu Xun, Hahan and other disgusting public intellectuals might be – they and their families will all still suffer and die as the country will revert into a playball of foreign and western powers – turning every and each of those self-proclaimed not!Sick-Men into either refugees or colonial subjects who have to bear foreign boots tramping on their soil and raping their women, just like how the Afghans, Iraqis, Japanese, Okinawans and South Koreans have to bear with the US doing the same to them, no matter how physically fit and politically liberated each of them might be.

    If your country and goverment is a sick man, you will be also a sick man, for it cannot protect you from foreign aggression anymore – you can only do that much with your own bare hands and a home-defense shotgun. Easy as that.

    • “just like how the Afghans, Iraqis, Japanese, Okinawans and South Koreans have to bear with the US doing the same to them, no matter how physically fit and politically liberated each of them might be.”

      You forgot Germany.

      • Hongjian

        Yeah, my German brethrens and the political class with their slavish, anticipatory obedience towards the USA is one of the most disguting examples of being a Sick Man in mind despite healthy on the outside.

        It takes special sickness to accept foreign nukes stationed on one’s soil, as well as to accept that one pays hundred millions and gift away advanced Submarines for every dead pet-hamster owned by a jew during WWII in existence.

        • Interested

          With mind like you, there is some hope for China. But so many Chinese are self-haters. Need to find way to get rid of them. I support China backing to feudalism. Obedient people do better in feudalism. Liberal society is for hunter-gatherers types. I do not think current self-defeating degenerative liberal democracy would last long. It lasted only about 200 years in Greece. But Feudal society easily goes over that.

        • donscarletti

          Yes, but are German women unsafe from being raped by American men? Or German businesses having their property violated, or German men being beaten and humiliated by US servicemen out on day trips from Ramstein?

          70 years ago, Germany’s proud, nationalistic, Alpha male government went east to put down the Slavic Üntermensch and grab some Lebensraum. 4 years later things did not end so well, especially for Germany’s womenfolk at the hands of the Slavic Üntermensch.

          Sort of like the streets of Beijing in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion.

          Wanna keep your national dignity and keep your women from being raped? Don’t pick fights that could go either way. Oh, East and Wester Prussia, the ancestral homeland of King Frederick and Canceller Bismark has now awakened to its ancient Polish roots as well.

          Anyway, nationalism is for the bottom rungs who have no pride of their own. Winners get out there, kick butt, make dough and screw hot chicks themselves.

          • I may as well squeeze this one in as I have affiliations: As Germans, relax in Qingdao, make love, stay for a while, and construct a superb brewery for the Tsingtao pilsner. In fact stay forever cos’ decent aeroplanes had yet to be invented.

          • “Wanna keep your national dignity and keep your women from being raped? Don’t pick fights that could go either way. Oh, East and Wester Prussia, the ancestral homeland of King Frederick and Canceller Bismark has now awakened to its ancient Polish roots as well.”
            china is a male majority(and there arent enough gay white men in theowrld to rape them) besides CHinese nationalism are lynch mobs hopefully focused on Uygurs

          • Hongjian

            “Or German businesses having their property violated, or German men being beaten and humiliated by US servicemen out on day trips from Ramstein?”

            If the plan of the US to use Germany as a giant nuclear tank-trap in case of WWIII came to reality, Germans would have lost more than just their property and have their women raped by US servicemen.

            The better alternative to what actually happened to Germany was Austria. Their war-guilt was just as significant as Germany, but they weaseled themselves out of Germany’s fate and became a larger switzerland and remained independent and neutral to this day – repected by both the eastern as well as western bloc.

            “Sort of like the streets of Beijing in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion.
            Wanna keep your national dignity and keep your women from being raped? Don’t pick fights that could go either way.”

            The difference here is just; China never picked a fight with the british or the eight nation alliance on their own. China was simply invaded without any previous provocations that deserved such an aggression of that scale – responding with an invasion just because the govt of a different country wants to stop drug-import to his own country was never a modus operanti of diplomacy – not even during the 19th century. This was simply vicious imperialism that cant be legitimized by anything.

            To compare the fate of the Boxer Rebels to Nazi Germany is also retarded, since the boxers werent the aggressors, but the victims of the Imperialists they were rebelling against. Are you trying to say that resistance against foreign occupation and thus the inevitable killings of foreigners and collaborateurs is not legitimate? What would be the Résistance française? A terror group whose members deserved that the SS tortured their asses and shot their relatives, because they picked a fight with the German occupiers that could go either way? Or the warshaw uprising? It is like to say that the Warsaw jews had it coming for resisting the Nazis.

            Again, like nearly all westeners ever; this argument is simply the old game of “blaming the victim”.

          • Gontraf

            I like your amalgam between Chinese christian women and kids and collaborators Hongjian. It’s really clever.

          • moop

            china’s inability to conduct foreign relations and treat england as an equal state was a large contributing factor as to why they got invaded.

            as if calling the king and subjects of the most powerful country in the world “barbarians” wasn’t going to have drastic consequences in that day and age. they’ve gone to war for a lot less than that.

            http://www.cracked.com/article_17123_the-5-most-retarded-wars-ever-fought_p2.html

          • You evoked the powers of Cracked.com. +1

          • Twind

            Hmmm…some interesting remarks here. See my own take on some of the issues raised in this particular discussion at the bottom of this thread.

      • rain

        Yeah…Germany has largest US soldier in the world…(Of course, Except US)shit.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces

    • Jahar

      Your own logic is proving the author’s point. Many Chinese can’t seem to see government/ethnic chinese/ chinese citizens as being separate, whereas we have no trouble. I think the government here now is a horrible, corrupt mess, but that doesn’t reflect on my view of ordinary citizens. I can’t stand the Canadian government, but in general i think Canadians are a good people. We see people as individuals. Society is separate from the government, and people are individuals. Government can and does influence the people, but they are still themselves. It’s your own racism that is making YOU see it this way, not US. And That is the whole point.

  • Shanghairen

    I’ve heard the term many times. I always thought it referred to China as a whole because she was unable to modernize. I think that’s most westerner’s view of the term. If the Chinese understood it in a different way, then I’m not sure how that happened. The article seems correct to me.

    • tai wai

      If the Chinese understood it in a different way, then I’m not sure how that happened.

      Fragile egos.

    • moonmickey

      But nobody outside China is aware of the saying, most people’s knowledge of China stops at Olympics (forgotten now) Great wall and 1989.

      Never heard it before coming here, sound internally created to keep the victim mentality alive.

      • anon

        Victims tend to have longer memories than victimizers, so it isn’t surprising that you haven’t heard of it.

  • markus

    the Chinese are never going to agree with this.
    true or not they want to think the west doesnt like them or looks down on them
    in fact i think the people in power want the public to think this way.

    The media always has an agenda and its not just about the money.

    True patriotism is not owned by any party or person but many Chinese have a misguided sense of liberty

    China has used nationalism as a tool to rally people if and when the government wants.
    controling the news it can create and change people the way they want…
    If China is happy with Japan they can show good things on the TV about Japan
    If China is angry they can spread anger amongst the people to get them to hate Japan.

    Chinese people have had this kind of thing taught to them from the day they were born and wont change for a very long time.

    of course all media does this kind of thing in one way or another but when its owned by the government its a lot stonger and a lot worse.

    • asdf

      Yeah sure, Anti-japanese sentiment in China is entirely constructed by Authoritarian Chinese Government media. That completely explains why the “free” “democratic” South Koreans just absolutely love their Japanese neighbors.

      If “The West” is happy with China, they can show “good things” on the TV about China.

      Western people have had this kind of thing taught to them from the day they were born and wont change for a very long time.

      • Zappa Frank

        it may be true. But on the same time here there’s an evidence that chinese people love to think that the world is against them.. even if it’s explained that it was a misunderstanding, they prefer call traditor the reporter than accept this things.
        Even more incredible is the fact that chinese people still care about what happened more than 100years ago, consdering like it was happened right now. You look at europe and USA and after 2 world wars, with all the war crimes you can think about, people don’t give a fuck, they are all in friendly relation.. Chinese no, still complaining about the “invasion” of china from foreigners.

        • anon

          Race plays a part in this. It heightens the notion of the “other”. Black people still care about what happend more than 100 years ago at the hands of white people, just as Asians like the Chinese have apprehensions about whites.

          One thing that helped the reconciliation between Europeans is that their physical differences are not so obvious. It’s harder to tell a French person apart from a German person whereas its easy to see the differences between whites, black, Asians, etc.

          • moop

            “It’s harder to tell a French person apart from a German person whereas its easy to see the differences between whites, black, Asians, etc.”

            i just look for the guy walking around the city wearing short hiking shorts and boots during the winter.

      • blah

        Korea has its own troubled past with Japan, that whole “colonization” and elimination of korean culture and ethnicity thing….you know that old chestnut

  • Hongjian

    In the end, no matter whether the attribute of the Sick Men of Asia was indeed targeted at the Qing-Dynasty or the people, or whether it was really just self-loathing; it is still serving a very important purpose that goes beyond the self-hating of the chinese people: It is a daily reminder that just one moment of laxity and weakness will result in one and a half centuries of humiliation at the hands of the predatory western world.

    Never forget, never forgive.
    Not the west, and also not ourself.

    With nowadays geopolitical situation and with the US “pivot” to Asia, which means a dramatical increase of nuclear, conventional and subversive threat directed against China, this historical warning should be heeded even more.

    One moment of laxity against the US, means that China as an independent nation will meet her end and finally join the line with other mindless puppets and airbases like Japan, South Korea and Germany.

    Then, China will truely be the Sick Man of Asia – a mentally disabled slave worker who wont be able to say “no” to the western world ever again: Not be able to say “no” when the West wants to have all of China’s Rare Earth Elements for themselves, not be able to say “no” when the US wants China to join them in their wars of aggression against the last remaining independent nations, and not be able to say “no” when the US forces China to finance all QE3, QE4 and QE5 shortly after the next US-led war.

    • markus

      Your mindless puppet comment is pure ignorance I’m not even going to bother going into details with you to explain or educate you as I can tell a lost cause when I see one.

      I was also going to give you some advice but I already know you will ignore it because you’re that kind of person.

      oh well…

      • kw

        you mean you do not have solid points to argue about?
        he maybe ignorant as you like to imagine him to be.
        do tell your opinion..
        there are plenty others here..

    • blah

      The USA is a warmongering beast full of chest-thumping morons…no question. However, to say that the Chinese would become slaves is well…ridiculous…the Chinese are and always have been slaves at the hands of their own rulers…that is the design of the Chinese state and has been since its inception.

      Chinese people have always owed nearly everything they have and work for to the state, if anything the recent years of communist rule have given them more autonomy than during most periods of history although some were better than others.

      I hope China does remain independent of the USA on their we are in agreement, but I also hope that one day China can cast off the thousands of years of oppression and bullshit its been carrying around..they take one step forwards two steps back but I think they might get there someday

      • Capt. WED

        Hmm no.

        That’s not how fedual societies worked.

        Sure there is the fucking emperor THE STATE. But it’s not anywhere near like it is today. The emperor is just a big landowner that’s it. You have various classes like the gentry, the merchants, the artisians, then the peasants. Depending on the wax and wane of the periods: at times Chinese people had great autonomy. So basically fedual system at no time was the exactly the same in history and at no time was like the modern system. Think about how can you have a anything comparable in term of centralized control in the past than today given vastly difference in technology.

        There is a saying in Chinese I forget the further you are from the emperor the more freedom you had.

        • tai wai

          There is a saying in Chinese I forget the further you are from the emperor the more freedom you had.

          Tian Gao Huang-di Yuan.

          “Heaven is high, and the emperor is far away.”

          Which is actual “traditional” Chinese way: It is good is when the government leaves you alone. Not this fenqing “we have to unite behind our Party and great nation” nonsense.

          Most Chinese I know, while very proud of China, could give two shits about the current “emperors,” other than they hope they don’t accidentally piss of some little Prince somewhere. Nor should they.

          Of course, I live in the South. Beijing is far away.

        • blah

          Sure, there was alot of variance as far as how much control was asserted but the basic reality was that of taxes, levies, and conscription for both military and civil use. The taxes at many times were so burdensome that people seeked to becomes monks to attain tax free and conscription free status. The labor conscription was so wretched that it was just as bad as being conscripted for war.

          Although outlying provinces and fontier areas had more autonomy and household registration could be lax at times, there were also severe penalties for failing to produce enough.

          While I am not 100% on this, I am fairly sure that Chinese feudalism was different from european fuedalism in that whereas in europe ones fealty was actually to the local lord and by proxy to the King..in China the emperor rules “all under heaven” and ultimately his authority when he chose to exercise it superceded that of the local lords…I dont ever recall Chinese nobility producing a magna carta or the Emperor needing their permission to wage war…the benfit of being nobility was the benefit of luxury and imperial favor..not autonomy

          • tai wai

            I am fairly sure that Chinese feudalism was different from european fuedalism

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examples_of_feudalism#China

            The Wang Zheng of Qin 嬴政 (note that at the time the Bo of Qin was self-proclaimed as “Wang of Qin”) eventually removed the Zhou household and defeated all other feudal lords and funded the first empire. To the horror of the people at the time, he completely abolished the feudal system in favour of the centrally governed imperial bureaucratic system which was used in China ever since until the foundation of republic in the 20th century. Noble titles, including that of “Wang”, were frequently used in the imperial periods, but their function were mostly honour titles that differed very much from that of the Zhou times.

            Arguably the first emperor of Qin had accomplished in China what Napoleon Bonaparte had partially failed to do in Europe. And indeed, King of Qin at the time was seen among the nobles as public enemy number one, and his abolishment of the feudal system was listed by scholars at the time among the ten “crimes against humanity” he had committed after the fall of the short-lived Qin empire. However the central bureaucratic system he had established had obvious attractions to future rulers of the Han empire 汉, and it was there to stay for the next two millennia.

          • Capt. WED

            Which is why I said there exists varying level of centralized control among different eras. You listed Qin as an example which only lasted 30 something years and was pretty much a failed state (by definition). You then went on to say as if Han Dynasty was a continuation of Qin. This is just not correct. Han Dynasty was very different in style from Qin dynasty.

            Sure there was a centralized bureaucratic system, but it wasn’t always all powerful all the time. Some periods it was not very effectual while other times it was.

            Chingiswashere’s entire beef the other day was that China centralized bureaucracy was not effective until…well Chingis came along. Varying levels centralized buereaucry for different periods. Some periods was indeed similar to European style feudalism.

            I basically meant feudalism as in NOT TODAY. No matter how you argue about this no way in the past the emperor had the same ability for control as the modern day. Sure occasionally it was brutal, but it wasn’t 100% brutal & control 100% of the time and definitely in the modern sense.

            Was life shit? Yes it was definitely shit compared to today’s standard. I don’t mean the past was somehow a paradise vs. today.

    • tai wai

      Never forget, never forgive.

      We are Anonymous.

      gb2/b already

      • blah

        Your post in reply to mine illustrates my point, and although maybe my terminology was incorrect, the fact remaisn that the European experience of empire and fuedalism was vastly different than what happened in China… and the idea that the subjugation of the Chinese people as essentially disposable units of production in varying levels of subservience to the Capital has been the norm

        • tai wai

          Pretty much, yeah.

    • Woo

      There are too many brainwashed people like this poster. Willing to believe anything that serves their ego and the state. Did western countries really cause that much suffering in China, or is it possible that the Qing government is not the same thing as the people. Did western countries cause the standard of living for Chinese people to fall? The historical records show that they did not. For the great majority of people there was basically no noticeable change, unless they lived near one of the port settlements or missionary schools, where the standard of living actually increased.

      The only thing that matters to these people is that the egos of their masters in the ruling class were bruised. Japan, South Korea and Germany? These are the leading economic powers of our time where living standards have consistently risen over the last half century. Somehow people like this think living in a country like mine is terrible because we don’t spend all of our time building armies. To them, people don’t matter, only twisted national pride.

  • GreenGestalt

    Here’s something funnier and worse:

    “Opium! – A heathen Curse on Christendom!”

    —-VeLy SoLLy… Excuse me, “Very Sorry”…

    Well, they “De-Bunk” the “Irish need not apply” signs to downplay racial prejudice against the Irish whom they only made “White Men” because there was a fear (middle east/oil) they’d end up forced to give reparations to slavery to Black men. Since the British had more or less “Practiced” on the Irish till they got good at it before they went on their “Jolly old” rampage around the world, looting India, sending convicts and lunatics to Australia/Americas, dealing drugs in China…well they’d shoot themselves first!

  • Matt

    In the end, no matter whether the attribute of the Sick Man of Europe was indeed targeted at the United Kingdom or the people, or whether it was really just self-loathing; it is still serving a very important purpose that goes beyond the self-hating of the British people: It is a daily reminder that just one moment of laxity and weakness will result in one and a half centuries of humiliation at the hands of the predatory non-British world.

    • Love it! This “Sick Man of Europe” was all over the press regarding Britain, especially when I was at school in the 1970s 1980s. Which other country can handle in and of itself so many disparates? I for one was proud to admit in a UN Peacekeeping Force that Somalia was lost. Now we see Mo Farah at home, great English, in Britain, since age single digits. It was a pleasure to accept “Sick Man” status. It makes you stronger; as we see in China. All sovereign nations are looking internally how to improve, not externally how to conquer. The web is a bit different…

  • Matt

    In the end, no matter whether the attribute of the Sick Man of Europe was indeed targeted at Italy or the people, or whether it was really just self-loathing; it is still serving a very important purpose that goes beyond the self-hating of the Italian people: It is a daily reminder that just one moment of laxity and weakness will result in one and a half centuries of humiliation at the hands of the predatory non-Italian world.

  • Matt

    In the end, no matter whether the attribute of the Sick Man of Europe was indeed targeted at the Ottoman Empire or the people, or whether it was really just self-loathing; it is still serving a very important purpose that goes beyond the self-hating of the Ottoman Turks: It is a daily reminder that just one moment of laxity and weakness will result in one and a half centuries of humiliation at the hands of the predatory non-Turkish world.

  • Matt

    In the end, no matter whether the attribute of the Sick Man of Europe was indeed targeted at Portugal or the people, or whether it was really just self-loathing; it is still serving a very important purpose that goes beyond the self-hating of the Portuguese people: It is a daily reminder that just one moment of laxity and weakness will result in one and a half centuries of humiliation at the hands of the predatory non-Portuguese world.

  • Matt

    In the end, no matter whether the attribute of the Sick Man of Europe was indeed targeted at Greece or the people, or whether it was really just self-loathing; it is still serving a very important purpose that goes beyond the self-hating of the Greek people: It is a daily reminder that just one moment of laxity and weakness will result in one and a half centuries of humiliation at the hands of the predatory non-Greek world.

  • Matt

    Etc, etc.

  • lonetrey

    I feel like I’ve heard this term before, but it’s been used so infrequently that I almost forgot about it until this article brought it up.

    It sounds like Asia has an inferiority complex.

  • mouse

    I had no idea that this phrase was that widely misunderstood (or even still thought about). I always thought it’s meaning was obvious. Especially considering the exact equivalent phrase about the ‘Sick Man of Europe’ refering to the declining Ottoman Empire

    • Stu

      It’s about nationalism, basically. At the turn of the twentieth century writers like Liang Qichao were trying to inspire a sense that China was a united ‘nation’, not just an empire, so it made sense to transpose a criticism of the government into a criticism of ‘all of us’. Would be interesting to know whether he genuinely believed ‘the West’ was insulting all of China, or if he deliberately massaged the meaning.

      • tai wai

        At the turn of the twentieth century writers like Liang Qichao were trying to inspire a sense that China was a united ‘nation’, not just an empire, so it made sense to transpose a criticism of the government into a criticism of ‘all of us’.

        So, what, nationalism was pretty much a Western concept, too? I guess it would be, since it came about with the modern concept of state.

        So, Chinese nationalists are, once again, parroting Western thought.

        Oh, the irony.

        • Stu

          Yeah, it’s a central irony of anti-imperial nationalism everywhere. They could only fight the ‘enemy’ by trying to become them.

          Mind you, I’m sure the irony applies in ‘the West’ too. Think of those European states fighting off Napoleon- you can bet they took notes on the French Revolution. And going further back, those French revolutionaries were certainly watching American closely… basically, everybody ends up copying everybody else in claiming how wonderfully unique they are.

  • taikongren

    I can’t believe the bullshit both here (and I’m looking at you Hongjian!)) and on QQ about this. Everything about the coinage of the “sick man” term is true. Back years ago I studied Chinese history in college (and I live in China now and am fluent yadda yadda yadda), so I do know a little about this. “Sick Man” was a term to describe the geopolitical power of China during the Qing dynasty. The meaning may have changed for some modern Chinese people. But this was history. It had nothing to do with the China people’s physique. It has nothing to do with whether or not Western countries took advantage of China’s weakness or the moral responsibility of that historical issue.

    The article is just about the origin of coinage of the term and how it has come to apply to a (un-confirmed) perceived insecurity about a (non-existent) foreign perception of Chinese people’s physique.

    But while we are talking about “sick man of Asia”, I’ll point out to all you nationalist (in China and the USA) that it is a sure sign of weakness to dwell on on the injustices of history and past victim-hood. The sick need help. The weak bitch about their problems and blame others. Only those (individuals and people) who are brave look clearly at their challenges and work to bring about ethical, effectual change in order to bring about a better future.

    • Scott

      The term Sick Man (not “men”) of Asia was used by British writers in the 19th century referring to Turkey. The word “coolie” is not a transliteration of 苦力 but is of Hindu origin. Extraterritoriality was the accepted norm in the mid-19th century; the Qing government’s objection to the Opium War treaty was not extraterritoriality (it was understood and granted that nationals would be tried and judged by their own officials by their own laws) but the opening of five ports to foreign trade, 五口通.

      And I know these inconvenient details will have no effect on what’s going on here, but please note that there are two different persons posting as Scott.

      • taikongren

        I heard it used in describing Ottoman Empire. I do remember it being used in describing China. You are replying to my post and bringing up facts that do not refute what I said, which is about the purpose the article and the reaction of nationalists to the article. I didn’t write “men” either… so maybe you are actually replying to someone else.

        In any event, thanks for adding inconvenient details. I like it.

        • Scott

          I wasn’t replying to Taikongren but stupidly posted as a “reply”. The inconvenient details are just more grist for the mill.

    • elizabeth

      “The sick need help. The weak bitch about their problems and blame others. Only those…who are brave look clearly at their challenges and work to bring about ethical, effectual change in order to bring about a better future.”

      Bravo! Space Age thinking eloquently put.

      They should not be so bothered by what others think and say about them, especially when it’s history. This is the present and what matters is the future, not the past.

      So what if the phrase existed? So what if the westerners apologize or continue to use the phrase? Will it make life better in the future?

      One of the things holding many Chinese (including the diaspora) back, in my opinion, is the desire for ‘face’. For some, it becomes an obsession that governs their attitudes, values, ethics, actions and approach to life.

      ‘Face’ is literally the modus operandi without which they will not know how to conduct business or relate to others properly. ‘Face’ is what prompts locals to treat vocal foreigners with disdain and perceive insults at every corner. ‘Face’ is behind efforts to sabotage and put others down so as to ‘win’ in life and to gain ‘respect’ instead of working with, and encouraging, ‘competitors’ to excel for the good of the whole with ‘win-win’ solutions.

      ‘Face’ disallows individuals to look themselves in the mirror to identify the flaws to be addressed in order to achieve their true potential. ‘Face’ is behind the cold, calculative, manipulative and/or impersonal treatment of others especially the less privileged whom they would not only distance themselves from but also blame for society’s ills. Face prescribes that individuals conform to a hierarchy in order to be accepted in a community.

      This is not unique to mainland Chinese, but many in the Chinese diaspora and other races as well. Maybe that is why people remain ‘inferior’ no matter how competitive they are.

      Time to take a different approach and be true winners in life.

      • tai wai

        ‘Face’ is behind efforts to sabotage and put others down so as to ‘win’ in life and to gain ‘respect’ instead of working with, and encouraging, ‘competitors’ to excel for the good of the whole with ‘win-win’ solutions.

        Wow. That’s brilliant. I never thought of it that way.

        Lian is a zero-sum game to some of these people. But doesn’t that defeat the whole idea of lian being a mutually cooperative endeavor? To give someone face, so that you receive face?

        Maybe that’s part of the problem. In the West, we don’t put giving face first. To us, it’s at most a polite formality; most people don’t even bother with it.

        So, by not putting their face first, we insult them, even when we don’t mean to.

        Hmm.

      • anon

        I really hate it when we Westerners try to make the concept of “face” some sort of alien and somehow uniquely Chinese or Asian phenomenon. It’s become a scapegoat. Not a single thing you ascribed to “face” is absent in non-Chinese or non-Asian societies.

        • taikongren

          Reading Comprehension FTW
          Anon said:”I really hate it when we Westerners try to make the concept of “face” some sort of alien and somehow uniquely Chinese or Asian phenomenon. ”

          But actually, in elizabeth’s post:”This is not unique to mainland Chinese, but many in the Chinese diaspora and other races as well. Maybe that is why people remain ‘inferior’ no matter how competitive they are.”

          Not that I completely agree with the idea that its all about face. But what she is saying applies to foreigners equally and she admitted that.

          • anon

            Ouch, my mistake, definitely failed to read that disclaimer. My apologies.

  • Harland

    The Ottoman Empire was the Sick Man of Europe.

    The Chinese are just projecting their massive inferiority complex onto others. Although it does ring true, from a Chinese standpoint. Under socialism, people starved and most others were malnourished. Try to find a 60+ year old Chinese person who is tall and strong. It’s not surprising that writers noticed it and invented a new interpretation of ‘sick man of Asia’ to try to blame the West (once again) for Chinese failures.

    • Scott

      Harland, you posted even as I noted my error. Yes, the Ottoman Empire, which I mistakenly called Turkey.

    • asdf

      These writers are not blaming the West for Chinese failures. They’re revealing the full scale of humiliation which Chinese people received as a result of their failure in order to motivate Chinese people to improve. I do not know how you came to interpret the reassignment of the label “sick man of Asia” from the Qing regime to the Chinese people as an attempt to “blame the West”.

      Judging from the constant ridicule Chinese people receive from westerners like yourself, it’s not surprising why Chinese writers noticed that not only was the name “sick man of Asia” applied to the Qing regime, it was being used to conveniently humiliate Chinese people as well. If anything, I would like to thank you for your defamatory comment since it provides a perfect example of how this “new interpretation” came into existence. Now please do not reply back with amendments that your initial comment was directed towards the government instead of Chinese people at large since it is obvious that you’re full of bullshit.

      • Nick in Beijing

        If Chinese people don’t want to be viewed as weak and sickly, regardless of whether or not foreigners regard Chinese people as being weak and sickly, then they should try to develop themselves fundamentally as a society. High GDP does not equal fundamentally healthy society.

        Yesterday when I got on the train to go meet someone a guy tried to sell me a stolen iphone. When he approached me and i started looking around he grimaced and turned to run away. I shouted out 小偷! (xiao tou, thief) and tried to persuade the platform attendant who was literally within arms reach of me and the thief to attempt to catch the thief, or at least use her platform intercom or hand radio to alert the station police to the presence of a thief, and she simply stared disinterestedly as the thief ran away then finally replied saying “it’s not my job”. All while the people standing in line with me just stared, and then began to giggle at my attempts to get the platform attendant to take some kind of action.

        None of this is indicative of a fundamentally healthy society where people laugh at attempts to see justice done and people who are charged with the safety of others simply shrug off their responsibilities without a thought.

        If Chinese are taking offense at the claims of others, and regard it as a national shame because of their twisting of the meaning of a phrase, then that suggests they themselves feel ashamed at the state of their society. If they were strong and proud and had good reason to be then they would shrug off the criticism of others and move on.

        • elizabeth

          It’s more of the double standards they apply to foreigners. Unfortunately, the constant harping on ‘stupid Chinese’ by some does not help to bridge the gap.

          • Nick in Beijing

            No. Constant harping does not help bridge the gap.

            Moving to foreign countries, making friends with the local people, and exchanging ideas and philosophies does help bridge the gap.

            My point is simply that Chinese society is inundated with easily remedied issues. The mentality that “it’s someone else’ fault and not mine” and the problems that causes is likely the source of a lot of Chinese defensiveness. They are aware of the problems in their society, but since it’s always someone else’ fault and not their own responsibility to help solve then things improve only very slowly. Since the problems repeat themselves so often, anything that could be perceived as a sleight (regardless of it is actually is or not) is immediately taken as an offense.

            This way of thinking hinders progress because the people who see themselves as victims will most likely not want to be the first to stand up and suffer to improve the overall situation.

            As I said in another post this kind of thing is not exclusive to China, but China has turned this into a problem “with Chinese characteristics”. Those characteristics are a perfectly valid target of criticism. Calling it a characteristic of China doesn’t make it invulnerable to criticism.

          • elizabeth

            @ Nick
            Well, there are a few possible reasons for this attitude:
            1 It doesn’t pay to help. In fact, we’ve seen kind souls getting into trouble.
            2 Helping others is secondary to personal pursuits and it should not get in the way.
            3 Theft (or cheating) is a common occurrence. If it’s not my cellphone, who cares?
            4 Public servants. The man in the streets has given up on them.

            So, they’d probably thought you were new here and laughing at your ignorance (or idealism) :)

            W.r.t point 3. I was on a subway train when a ‘blind’ man with a stick came approaching the passengers for donations. Nobody responded by giving but ignored him instead. I wondered why.

            Then, as the train approached a station, a phone rang. To my surprise, the ‘blind’ man whipped up his phone and walked right out of the train to receive the call as if the boss had called, in a hurry, without having to feel around with a stick.

            It was eye-opening, at the same time amusing.

            So, when cheaters come knocking, the locals probably know when it is not wise to mess with the people behind the scene.

          • asdf

            These writers are not blaming the West for Chinese failures. They’re revealing the full scale of humiliation which Chinese people received as a result of their failure in order to motivate Chinese people to improve. I do not know how you came to interpret the reassignment of the label “sick man of Asia” from the Qing regime to the Chinese people as an attempt to “blame the West”.

            Judging from the constant ridicule Chinese people receive from westerners like yourself, it’s not surprising why Chinese writers noticed that not only was the name “sick man of Asia” applied to the Qing regime, it was being used to conveniently humiliate Chinese people as well. If anything, I would like to thank you for your defamatory comment since it provides a perfect example of how this “new interpretation” came into existence. Now please do not reply back with amendments that your initial comment was directed towards the government instead of Chinese people at large since it is obvious that you’re full of bullshit.

          • asdf

            I would appreciated next time if you actually read my comments before replying so i wouldn’t have to copy paste the same response for both you and Harland. But thanks again for reminding all of us that china’s a huge shithole of sick men. We all needed that.

          • elizabeth

            @ asdf

            So how should one respond to humiliation? Cry like a weakling and take offense? Does or has that changed anything?

            Why give critics the pleasure of proving that you are indeed whiny weaklings? Why not shake them off with cultivated class and show the world what you are truly made of? Truth will speak and bring liars to shame. Those who speak sincerely for your country will not fall.

            You are not going to get much by forcing respect from the ones who think respect has to be earned.

          • asdf

            @elizabeth
            I’m not forcing respect from others. There’s nothing respectable about the current Chinese society. We can be proud of our past achievements or our potential as a future superpower. But at the current time he’s right, China is one huge shithole. Anyone trying to argue against this fact is living in denial. The best thing to do is to accept it and improve.

          • elizabeth

            @ asdf

            Then I wish you guys the best in your efforts as you rise to the occasion/challenge to scale greater heights.

  • Twind

    Well, I guess the whole article should have been translated, which would give the readers even better context. For example, that Liang Qichao and many others were influenced by social darwinism in their views. Anyway, here is another piece from 2008 on this topic and its author reached similar conclusions as this article.

    http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_48670cb201008rtk.html

    • Twind

      Forget to add that this article also mentions that prior to 1903, intellectuals like Liang and Yan Fu only used “sick man” to describe the governing system, but not the physical health of the Chinese people. It seems to me many Chinese these days have also understood the term in this way, in addition to the physicality implications.

  • Beijinger in Seattle

    I don’t think this minor distinction is worth pointing out. The stereotypes about Asian men being smaller and weaker phyiscally are well and alive in the West even today.

    • Gontraf

      Just like the stereotypes about English people being self-righteous cunts in Ireland and Romas being thieves in Slovakia (and throughout Europe for that matter). How about Nigerians being ruthless criminals in West Africa and youths of North African descent being delinquents in France ?

      Stereotype-embracing idiots are everywhere, I fail to see why that should be an obstacle to the establishment of historical facts.

    • Stu

      The point, I think, is that through phrases like ‘sick man of Asia’ these stereotypes are also alive and well in China. More so, perhaps, since I doubt many in the west even recognise the phrase ‘sick man of Asia’, and quite a few will associate China with BADASS KUNG-FU.

  • Nanny Hiccups

    forever defining oneself through the eyes, perceptions, and standards of the west. It’s kind of pathetic.

    • asdf

      forever ignoring the perceptions and standards that the west assigns to Chinese people is completely ignorant.

      • Nanny Hiccups

        what kind of perceptions do they assign to asians? Little, yellow, and communist? Countries are better off keeping these ethnocentric western views out of their society. instead the conform, adopting western styles of dress, music, and so on. Western globalism projecting itself as great… come on, be like us, you know you wanna… why can’t countries be great and unique on their own? They can, but they don’t allow themselves. Steady reaching for the stars. All fifty one of them.

        Be yourself.

        • asdf

          Chinese people are not yet in the position to assign their own perceptions and standards to other people. We are quickly improving, but we’ve got a long way to go. Sure there are individuals who try to do so prematurely, but they’ll just realize sooner or later that they’re fighting an uphill battle against the popular media, social norms, strongly established stereotypes, and even common sense itself. In fact most Chinese people are so pathetic they can’t even enforce it on themselves. Why do you think this is?

          From the moment of Birth, every person is branded by the success of both his country, and his ethnicity. It is a label which we cannot ignore or escape. There are idiots who try to assimilate themselves within a more dominant culture in a futile attempt to improve their self image. What they fail to realize is that in reality they’re ultimately humiliating their entire race, including themselves as an individual.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            “Chinese people are not yet in the position to assign their own perceptions and standards to other people.”

            No. Only themselves. We need no more globalization or cultural hegemonization from any other countries.

        • asdf

          So actually i agree with your ideal, but it is currently impossible to accomplish.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            @asdf

            it’s not impossible to accomplish. american black people who are westerners have broken those european shackles a long time ago. we’re highly concious and don’t walk around attributing euro/western standards of beauty or otherwise to ourselves. in the old days, if you were a light-skinned black you got treated better than a dark one. if you had straight hair, people would say you had “good” hair. then people started to think about it… why is it good? Because it looks like white hair? People started realizing how flawed and self-hating their thought processes were and changed. of course there are still people who chase white standards, but the bulk of the black community have shirked those things to the point of overcompensating, against anything white. which is kind of getting stupid since we’re all in teh same country, but the point is not to allow ourselves to be brainwashed into thinking that anyone who is not white enough, is bad or not good enough. we now say the opposite.

        • Kong

          How about perceptions like “old fashioned”, “stagnant”, “undeveloped”, “poor”, or “repressed”? You are blaming countries in the global south for not adequately resisting Western imperialism? You’ve got to be kidding me. So because they aren’t in a position to defend themselves, they deserve what they’ve got? What a silly, silly comment.

          • asdf

            China as a country IS adequately resisting Western imperialism. China is rapidly strengthening its military, media, economy, and living standards. However, judging from the amount of idiotic unpatriotic Chinese PEOPLE who so readily conform to Western imperialism, and produce absurd claims such as that westerners meant no harm when labeling Chinese people as the “sick man of asia”, YES they absolutely deserve everything they get.

          • linette

            asdf
            You love communism where the gov’t party has absolute power over their people. You are either part of the party or you are a brain washed slave of the communist party.

          • Kong

            There is no country without its people. If the people are not patriotic it’s because either the country has failed to legitimize itself. People are not idiots to worship the West, they just don’t have any local role models. It’s not ANYONE’S fault, and nobody “deserves” it. However, it IS a reality at the mercy of Western imperialism and the Chinese government.

            You and Nanny are two sides of the same unfortunate coin.

          • asdf

            “it’s not ANYONE’S fault”
            Sure, just keep telling yourself that and things will improve.

          • asdf… Amongst the intelligence (military intelligence) community in Singapore, they see China growing and growing and becoming a threat to where their diaspora centres exist (e.g. Malaysia and Singapore). Thank heavens the US Fleets are being ramped-up. Not for war but M.A.D. control over events likely to unfold. (Note: not nuclear, but sea-bed rights).

          • Kong

            asdf, I hope you understand the difference between fault and responsibility. Otherwise, do tell me how you as an individual are at fault for all global ills. And tell me how you blaming the individuals of one nationality has ever improved anything.

            It is no ONE’s fault, but it is all of our responsibility.

          • asdf

            Tell that to all the idiots in China who show off their broken english like it’s cool, who say they’re australian canadian or american just because they studied there, who buy only european styled yang fang and art, who have surgery for a double eyelid or a higher nosebridge thinking it’s beautiful. These sheeple try so hard to assimilate themselves within a more dominant culture in a futile attempt to improve their self image. What they fail to realize is that in reality they’re ultimately humiliating their entire race, including themselves as an individual.

            (copy pasted again because none of you seem to bother reading my comments before replying)

            They are at “FAULT” for their own inferiority complex.
            They are “RESPONSIBLE” for their own inferiority complex.
            Your clever little play on words is meaningless.

            I know this runs contrary to my original argument, but that’s simply because I’ve already recognized the fact that trying to change the idiotic perceptions and behavior of EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL is pathetically ineffective. Since it is already evident that these idiotic individuals make up the vast majority of our society, it should be more accurate to redefine idiocy as normal and normality as absurd/radical/extremist. Therefore the only hope for the removal of these “normal” perceptions lies in the eventual rise of China as a nation. Don’t expect these “normal” people to change by themselves.

          • Kong

            That is not a uniquely Chinese thing—all people of all nationalities do that. If you think they are disgracing their own race, that is your problem. Who are you to decide what is important to other people, haha.

            You think anyone goes out and decides “I want to have an inferiority complex”? How stupid. They have an inferiority complex because their country/race/culture has failed to provide them with role models. Because images from the West are constantly teaching them that West is good and China is backward. In the West, people are taught that apathy is cool and that Asian cultures are to be fetishized and sold. This isn’t merely the individual decision of millions of people.

            It is stupid to blame people for the education bleak outlook on life that they were given. Why? Because as you said, it’s not going to change. It certainly won’t change by deriding others with one’s insufferable ego. All the “blame-game” does is distract people from facing the truth. It’s the illusion of purpose.

          • asdf

            You presume in your argument that people are incapable of free will, that their thoughts are completely molded by their biological instincts and surrounding environment. And you know what, you’re completely right.

            I used to believe that people were capable of basic reasoning, that people had the ability either accept or reject what they are being taught. But after being exposed to the amount of “normality” on this website, i have once again realized that my expectations were too high.

          • tai wai

            What they fail to realize is that in reality they’re ultimately humiliating their entire race, including themselves as an individual.

            Why do you bring race into this? They’re copying a superior culture. And you think makes them race traitors?

            You’re as bad as Chen Tianhua.

            “Racial feeling begins at birth. For the members of one’s own race, there is surely mutual intimacy and love: for the members of a foreign race, there is surely mutual savagery”.

            Bullshit.

            Since it is already evident that these idiotic individuals make up the vast majority of our society, it should be more accurate to redefine idiocy as normal and normality as absurd/radical/extremist.

            Ah, now I get it. You’re a sociopath that rejects reality in favor of your own hatred. Have fun with that!

          • Kong

            I don’t presume that people don’t have free will. I just think that people have a lot less free will than we tend to give them credit for. People only have agency (“free will”) inside a certain socialized/biological structure.

            If we are going to wait around for people to live up to our expectations, I’m afraid we’ll be end up old and bitter. Better to accept that people are different from us and embrace the positive possibilities. What they say, hope for sunshine while preparing for rain?

          • asdf

            I think you misunderstood what i said.

            I was merely expressing my ideal of how the world should be, and that is a world in which every individual can be proud of who they are, proud of how they look, and proud of the culture in which they belong.

            “Since it is already evident that these idiotic individuals make up the vast majority of our society, it should be more accurate to redefine idiocy as normal and normality as absurd/radical/extremist.”

            In this statement I’m actually rejecting my ideal and accepting reality.

            “Racial feeling begins at birth. For the members of one’s own race, there is surely mutual intimacy and love: for the members of a foreign race, there is surely mutual savagery”.

            This is very true. I also wish to live in a world without racism. But again this is also a highly idealistic world, not a realistic one.

          • asdf

            above comment is @taiwai not Kong

        • asdf

          Neither would it be ideal for this world if Chinese perceptions, standards and cultural norms were to strengthen on the international stage. Since the concept of strong and weak are purely relative, one has to give up the position of strong for another to attain it. And when that position is taken by the Chinese, we will only see a reverse in stereotyping in which hostilities between cultures will remain the same. Instead of Chinese people being little, shy, and yellow-skinned compared to the “standard”. Foreigners will be considered oversized, pink-skinned, boisterous, and smelly in the new “standard”. If by then you’re still alive, your soft hearted sympathy towards Chinese people would be completely gone.

          Even if China is the only existing country in the world, we’ll just see a rise in hostilities between Chinese cultural groups in the absence of a “greater enemy”. People will never get along no matter how perfect the world is around them.

        • blah

          “Steady reaching for the stars. All fifty one of them.”

          That was a solid line

          • Nanny Hiccups

            i’m a writer, it slips through sometimes on here lol

        • BigJ

          51 stars???I thought there were only 50?? Maybe im wrong. I am Canadian. But as you are an American I would hope you know more then me about this matter.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            Viva la Raza! Viva la Puerto Rico!

      • Northerner

        not as ignorant as blindly accepting perceptions and standards (The West allegedly assigns) as spoon-fed to you by your powers that be.

        • asdf

          Tell that to all the idiots in China who show off their broken english like it’s cool, who say they’re australian canadian or american just because they studied there, who buy only european styled yang fang and art, who have surgery for a double eyelid or a higher nosebridge thinking it’s beautiful. Why are you arguing with me, I’m just as fed-up with these brainless sheeple as you are.

          • +1 Fricking brilliant. Your comment in and of itself is a testament to individualism. +1 for good measure. “Sheeple”… One of us should be in touch with Oxford or Webster’s to get this in the next official dictionary. You’ve said what’s been on my mind since 1995 as all the skin whiteners and Gong Li / Michelle Yeoh stuff went berzerk. WTF…Why alter a gorgeous complexion? One GF I ditched because I wouldn’t pay for nose-job! (Other expats will have been through other bizarrenesses).

      • linette

        forever ignoring the perceptions and standards that the west assigns to Chinese people is completely ignorant……………..

        Every individual, no matter of what race or sex, with the right amount of good education and an open mind, will understand and not to define oneself through the eyes, perceptions, and standards of anybody.

        It’s like you….telling me………… because I am a woman, and women are considered less in your society, therefore I deserve less pay than you doing the same work. I know and I understand it is not true. Who are you to define how I should get paid? I know what I am worth.

        • Kong

          I think this is rather naive. It doesn’t matter how smart you think you are, you cannot run away from being influenced by others. There is no such think as being “independent”. The brain routinely lies to itself.

          • Linette

            ………doesn’t matter how smart you think you are, you cannot run away from being influenced by others…………..

            That is a poor excuse for the weak mind,dumb, and ignorant. Where do you think people like Martin Luther king came from? He was born in a society that told him he is low and worth nothing.

            George Washington didn’t bow down to England and lead his men to fight against them.

            Chen Guangcheng the blind Chinese lawyer was born in a corrupted China system that tell him handicap people are lower life forms. He fought against the china gov’t and lead the villagers to fight against forced abortion.

            We are all humans. We are born with a brain and all our 5 senses. Use them. It’s free. Use your judgement.

          • Individualism it seems can be powerfully and immediately regained after saying “moop” to collectivism. Ai Wei Wei proves this most certainly. If we look at the survival of Aung San Suu Kyi right across to this DPRK guy (brought up in Switzerland away from idiot father) who is likely to free-up North Korea, China is yearning for this in many expresive individuals. HK’ers most definitely are anyhow… I know of no-one from my birthright country UK who begrudges HK Chinese people (or Malaysian Chinese as in Gok Wan for that matter).

          • asdf

            Chen guang cheng is a lawyer who fought against corrupt officials. I admire his achievements, but how the hell is he related to our discussion of racial/cultural prejudice?

            Martin luther king and George Washington are not comparable figures either. One is begging for mercy within a racist society. The other is kicking the ass of another society. It is only the latter which will achieve any difference. Demanding rights or justice within a country will improve your opportunities in life, but it won’t affect anyone’s perceptions of what you are. Native Americans have even better benefits than the majority whites in the US. They’re still viewed as a bunch of lazy drunk assholes who avoid tax and leech off the welfare system. The only way to improve your image as a country or race is to do follow George Washington’s example. Strengthen the economy, strengthen the military, and kick the ass of those who look down upon you. Demanding rights won’t do shit.

          • asdf… SPOT-ON. Once, the PLA (Navy) were viewed as crap. Now they are really good. This sub-sea geographical shit is the next warground. There has not been naval excitement for years. Such and such a fleet is ramping up in Sembawang Singapore and Japan (i.e. USA), and PLA(N) have ramped up also. It will be a good test of resolve. It would be too facile to mention territory per se; but that’s what we’re looking at…territorial skirmishes.

          • Kong

            It’s not an excuse unless it’s used as an excuse. You think that you are worth something as a women because you have learned that from somewhere else. Not everyone is like you and had the opportunities you had, therefore not everyone will think like you.

            I’m afraid you’re doing science wrong. Education is not one person telling you the same thing from birth until adulthood. There are many social influences within society. Martin Luther King did not come out of nowhere. He had friends, teachers, and colleagues. They all influenced him in one way or another. Do you think MLK was the only person in history to think and act that way? You think 陈光诚 is the only person doing what he did? You think he magically came out of nowhere? Get real.

            You grossly overestimate human’s ability to reason. All the 5 sense and your precious reasoning ability can lie to you. Here is some reading you might find interesting and allow you to reassess how smart you think people are:

            http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/11/10-piercing-insights-into-human-nature.php

            We are all human, but what happens when you give people access to information, and they come up with a different answer than you did? Does that mean they are simply less intelligent that you? ze ze ze

    • Interested

      “forever defining oneself through the eyes, perceptions, and standards of the west. It’s kind of pathetic.”

      You nailed it.

      That is classic East Asian problem. Their pride is based on others appraisal. What they really need is `self’ repect. If you do not respect yourself, you are doomed to be manipulated by others.

      Unfortunately, when a wolf domesticated into a dog, it lost its pride. A dog depends on patting on its head for confidence. Like I said before, Asian people are better off in feudalism with masters on top. As long as masters like them, they are very good citizens like good dogs. They make good soldiers since they are most obedient displined to follow order to death. Kamikaze was not act of personal bravery, but extreme obedience to death.

      People without long history of civilization are not domesticated. They are full of self-pride. Civilization = Domestication. People with recent hunter-gatherers history are most proud and least obedient.

      • Capt. WED

        LOL hear this dog who think himself as a wolf talking. According to you own logic you are also a DOG. Unless you are the 1% you are a dog living in a brave new world.

        Again another super east asian expert here bringing up FACE like it’s a all or5 nothing black & white matter.

        Pullleeezzz

  • MassiveBender

    With all the original Chinese comments stubbornly refusing to accept that ‘Sick Man of Asia’ was derived from the Ottomans’ ‘Sick Man of Europe’ metaphor referring to the society and government rather than the people being physically ill, it would seem now China is the ‘Moron of Asia’, only this time it does refer to the people.

    • BigJ

      Well if someone don’t know the history behind it and they call them “sick man/men of asia” Im sure the first thing that comes to mind is being physically weak/sick. If someone told me I was the sick man of north america I would go to the doctor and get myself checked out. They should have been clear like “fucked up goverment of asia”.
      I recall hearing that is Bruce Lee movie. And it was aimed at the physical part of it, but that’s only a movie.

  • Dr SUN

    I know this is going to upset some Chinese as it undermines their core
    ” most victimized and oppressed ” mentality, but the sick man of Asia is North Korea, not China.
    China might have held that trophy years ago, but the DPRK has snatched that one away from you.

    • Gontraf

      How dare you? The DPRK stands strong and proud in the midst of nations enslaved by the imperialist capitalist doctrine of the American pigs. Dear Leader Kim Jong-un is the Bringer of Light (strong emission in the X-ray/gamma ray region of the spectrum) and Hope. The Korean people (the true) rejoice in the hardship which are but a small price to pay for freedom and national identity.
      When the Great Pimp falls from grace in the eyes of the world, all his whores shall look towards Pyongyang with moisture in their eyes and a spark of hope in their hearts.

      • Dr SUN

        ROLF !!

  • Capt. WED

    Sure back then “sick of man of Asia” may have been a political term but don’t doubt people didn’t go “LOL LOL LOL sick of man of Asia China government is ran by a bunch of Chinaman LOL LOL LOL.”

    History is not fucking black & white. It’s trends and dynamics just like today. LMAO. Yeah. Everything is black & white. WTF???

    The image of the Chinese as being “weak” still exists in various forms even today as a result of the past.

    I agree with the article that a big part of the blame is on China for being stagnant and ineffectual at reforms. The West by then has gone through Enlightenment, Romanticism, and somewhere along the line colonialism. At that point the West started getting into social Dawinism & white man’s burden and also the formation of various “secret societies” with political connection forming around the idea of social dawinism & racial superiority. This kind of philosophy eventually spread to China. That’s why during the early 1900s several Chinese writers wrote about the hierarchy of race, with Europeans at the top. They’re directly influenced by these kinds of philosophy. So partly this “sick man of Asia” thing is result of that. I’m not sure why this article don’t mention any of this shit. Whitewashing history for a bunch of stupid asses.

    FUCK >.<

    • Capt. WED

      Are you fucking kidding me dude? Watch the Korean film “My Way” to see what the Japanese thought. What the Russian thought even in the fucking 1930s.

      FUCK >.<

      Stop whitewashing history treating people like little babies.

    • Stu

      Yeah, good points here. Would have been better to see something like this in the Chinese responses, instead of ZOMG HANG THE TRAITOR!

  • Nick in Beijing

    Those who spout garbage such as “never forgive, never forgot” and the like are a cancer upon their society.

    Weak, simple minded people with eyes in the back of their head on the look-out for sleights and potential threats, but whose front-facing eyes are discolored and unseeing. Blinded by nationalist pride and victim mentality.

    • Nanny Hiccups

      are people the same when they say forget the holocaust? People are within their rights to say that they never want to forget an attack on their people. a history forgotten is doomed to be repeated.

      • Beijinger

        Nancy:

        While I think what you say has some value to it, I feel that it is important to move on. While Americans of course all know the history we have with Great Britain, should we not be friends with them because of it?

        You of course know about the relationship between blacks and whites in America. Were people like me and others who had nothing to do with what happened in the past held accountable, it would neither be fair nor healthy for either party.

        I think forgiveness is an extremely important quality.

        • Nanny Hiccups

          I only hold people accountable for what they do today. And most, unfortunately are assholes.

      • Rick in China

        There’s a big difference between remembering and dwelling on something. An event more than half a century ago shouldn’t be used as an argument against people or countries _today_. The point here though, is NOBODY is saying “forget” it. They’re saying that it was a manipulated phrasing by people at that time which has ingrained into so many people’s minds which results in a breeding of hate and defensiveness against people of other nations which is unjustified….and that’s a LONG stretch from “forget the holocaust”.

        • Nanny Hiccups

          seems like you have a double standard nick in beijing. It’s okay for european jewish people to say never forget the holocaust but not okay for chinese people to never forget the atrocities against them. jewish people have reasons not to be bitter. the government that did this to them have apologized and atoned for its sins whereas, there has been no atonement or retribution to the chinese so they have a right to feel guarded against all the imperalists, including the USA.

          • Rick in China

            You’re a fool. This article has nothing to do with “NEVER FORGET ALL ATROCITIES”, it’s about a misnomer. A misrepresentation of words by someone who manipulated the people’s minds into thinking everyone that isn’t Chinese looks down at Chinese as “sick men” and lowly barbarians. It’s CHINESE manipulating CHINESE. You really need to learn to read. This article is nothing about all the atrocities that happened in China’s past. It’s not about “never forget”, which some people pointed out only because some Chinese replied immediately in their comments calling the historians in the *Chinese* created article traitors and started bringing up every incident that happened in China’s past, this is *only* about the phrase “sick man”. Your argument is a straw man. You’re taking a historical correction about the phrase “sick man”, the immediate aggressive response by the Chinese comments translated, and spewing shit about holocaust and never forget the atrocities – you’re no better than the wu mao posters translated above.

          • Nick in Beijing

            Funny Nanny. I didn’t know the topic was about the Jews.

            I believe this is what some of the other members of the forum call “deflecting”. Don’t focus on another issue to avoid the issue at hand.

            Also I never said anything about the Holocaust. I believe this was your contribution to the discussion. Don’t call me out on something I didn’t talk about.

            See what I did there? You’re angry about something I didn’t mention, just like the Chinese commenters above.

          • tai wai

            This article has nothing to do with “NEVER FORGET ALL ATROCITIES”, it’s about a misnomer.

            Look at you, trying to whitewash everything. So transparent.

            /see, now, that’s trolling

          • hess

            Japan has apologized several times.
            And I’m pretty sure you have no idea what “imperalist” means, because China is just as imperialist as the US

          • Nanny Hiccups

            we know the article is not about forgiving the past. But yoru comment actually has nothing to do with “sick men of asia” unless, you are implying that chinese people are sick with cancer. Is that what you mean?

            You can try that bullshit “deflection” tactic on me. But I’m American. I speak and write perfect English. Yes, I’m lazy so I occasionally wirte garbage. But my command of the language is flawless. Can’t fool me with that deflection bullshit, the way you do these English-as-a-second language users here on chinasmacker. I’m calling you out on your double standard.

            “Those who spout garbage such as “never forgive, never forgot” and the like are a cancer upon their society.”

            I asked you if the same statement applied to Jewish people who say they will never forget the holocaust.

            Why are chinese people a cancer in their society, for refusing to forget those who have harmed them? They have the right to remember and acknowledge whatever they want.

            Your comment had nothing to do with the sick men of asia did it? We often discuss other topics, or hijack them. No probs bro.

          • Rick in China

            Once again you’re relating pointing out a misnomer where a Chinese with influence manipulated his own countrymen into believing foreign people/countries look down at Chinese *people*, not government policies, as “sick men of asia”, to the HOLOCAUST.

            They’re not supposed to forget every atrocity that happened in their past. They’re supposed to accept that some of the information fed to them in the past was bullshit and manipulative tactics from bureaucrats to put them in a state of anti-foreign hate, and get the fuck over it already when truth comes out..but the comments reflect “TRAITOR!” like responses rather than logical contemplation and reflection on how that manipulation may have influenced their perception of others.

            The fact you relate the holocaust or slavery to something so mundane, not to mention different, leads me to believe you either can’t understand the differences or really think very little of either the holocaust or slavery.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            it’s not that i think so little of slavery, the holocaust, but who are you to decide how hurt an entire country should feel from having been invaded? I’m saying, china is within its rights. that’s all. who are you or I to say what they should or shouldn’t accept? In your western mind, and mine… we have no idea what anyone should think and have no business saying so.

            “Chinese with influence manipulated his own countrymen into believing foreign people/countries look down at Chinese *people*,”

            Come on rick, is that not true? do not western men feel superior to asian men? Bigger? stronger? More virile? Even saying they are girly? In addition to their government being broken?

            A lot of the stuff that some people say that westerners do is pure fantasy and paranoia. but i think that feeling upset or skittish because of the past is within reason. they have been attacked from outsiders and from their own government. who the hell can they trust?

          • Rick in China

            Again, and for the last time, what does their government being referred to as “Sick Man”, essentially failing policies and on a downward spiral, have to do with *being invaded*. The article above which the Chinese translated comments responded to had *nothing* to do with being invaded. That is the whole precipice of my points, unless you get that, we can’t even have a conversation. I never mention anything about invasion or any other “atrocity”, because that is not what this article is remotely about.

      • Nick in Beijing

        I suppose you also think that modern day white people should repent for slavery.

        I don’t repent at all for slavery. My family was farming olives and pressing olive oil in Greece during that time period. Was it a bad thing for people to be enslaved by others? Yes, but that doesn’t mean that I feel and personal guilt or shame about it.

        Likewise why should anyone feel personal guilt or shame for the actions of the people who came before them? Closer to the point why should I have to put up with people directing hatred and anger at me for actions not performed by me? The same goes for the entire foreign world.

        • Nanny Hiccups

          “I suppose you also think that modern day white people should repent for slavery. ”

          I suppose i think modern white people should stop being a bunch of stereotyping racist assholes, and then we’ll consider that whole little slavery thing forgotten.

          • tai wai

            Am I allowed to dislike some black* people? Disagree with the way they act? I don’t think anyone whould argue that is racist.

            What about whole groups of them? Whole subcultures? Well, now it gets tricky.

            Now, what if those subcultures believed that how they acted actually defined correct way for the whole race to act?

            What if I said “They’re standing on the corner and they can’t speak English. I can’t even talk the way these people talk: ‘Why you ain’t,’ ‘Where you is’.”

            Am I a racist, then?

            Maybe you’d say no, but they’d sure think so. They called Bill Cosby a racist (worse, a race traitor), for saying just that.

            When a victim mentality exists, it’s hard not to be the imperialist American looking down on Chinese, or the racist asshole looking down on blacks. Because I’m now just a figment, a strawman.

            * You can substitute black for any race of your choosing. I picked it because it’s easy

          • Nick in Beijing

            While at the same time you generalize about white people. Great display there.

          • Scott

            “I suppose i think modern white people should stop being a bunch of stereotyping racist assholes”.

            You’re a black woman. When single did a white guy ever try to hit on ya’? Yeah? And what was the response of most black guys? I had a black girlfriend (I’m WASP and look it as well) and the murmured shit she got from black guys when she strayed from my side at a party was… well, stereotypical racist asshole. White folks couldn’t care less, but black males just seethed with jealousy and hate.

            Al Sharpton (not even the Tawana Brawley affair could shame or crimp his style) and The Most Reverend Jesse Jackson as the two most outstanding luminaries have made long and profitable careers out of race baiting. Jesse Jackson ran for US President under The Rainbow Coalition and got far fewer popular votes than the evangelical fundamentalist Pat Robertson, yet Jesse Jackson was lauded in the popular press as a “king maker” even as Pat Robertson was ridiculed. Have you no sense of discrimination in such matters? No perspective? Who in this forum gives you the hardest time, throws epithets in your face, assumes you are something less and alien? Us white folk?

            Public forums allow anonymous bravado and tough posturing, but none but the dumbest fail to recognize intellectual dishonesty even if they don’t admit to it.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            Scott, I readily agree that the racism, and the nastiest racism have come from asian males on this site. for that, they have lost my complete and utter respect of all asian men. In my mind, they represent a popular view. But i don’t have to deal with them. or talk to them. But also coala banana who is a white male made his share of nasty racist comments as well. overall, the guys here are not racist because they are in interracial relationships with asian women, they have to deal with racism against themselves in while living abroad in asian countries, so they are typically don’t espouse racist bullshit, because they realize from life experience, all racism is bullshit.

            I have no problem with white people actually. in fact, everyone i know, live with, hang aroundand work with are white people. white people aren’t bad. they’re just annoying. “Hey, i knew a black girl who wore hair weave. Is that your real hair?” , “hey, I knew a black guy who loved grape kool aide. do you like kool aide”. And it all piles up over time to the point where someone i can’t stand being around them or i nteracting with them for fear they may make an assinine assumption. but overall, white people are okay with me.

          • linette

            Nick, rick, scott, taiwai
            The impression I am getting at this point from you foreigners living inside China is that you all are suffering from victim mentality. Get out of China before the hatred comsume you. It’s not healthy.

          • linette

            consume.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            linette, i get the same impression. it’s weird though for a white person to be on the receiving end of racism. strange for them to be the minority for a change so they are out of their depth.

          • Scott

            “White people aren’t bad. they’re just annoying.”

            But I’m white, WASP, male, ancestors in America well before the Revolution and… I wholly agree with you! Let me do some research because there is a passage from Kim by Rudyard Kipling that I must share with you.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            white people are annoying. black people (in america) are obnoxious.

          • tai wai

            Nick, rick, scott, taiwai
            The impression I am getting at this point from you foreigners living inside China is that you all are suffering from victim mentality.

            I don’t feel like a victim. I’m doing well here, actually. Good friends, loving wife, people don’t really bother me…

            Of course, I grew up with minorities – people going “wtf is that guy doing here?” doesn’t really bug me, most of the time. And I expect a dominant group to look down on a weaker one.

            Dunno about those other guys.

          • linette

            Nanny Hiccups

            The western countries are feeling “defeated” from a non white country like China. It’s hurting their white ego so much they can’t take it. I understand how they feel. They feel overpowered by China…a communist country.

            I adore the USA gov’t system like I adore HK gov’t system. I am not crazy about China gov’t system. I hope one day we can all learn from each other and live in peace. Our societies can be more multiracial without prejudice.

          • tai wai

            The western countries are feeling “defeated” from a non white country like China. It’s hurting their white ego so much they can’t take it. I understand how they feel. They feel overpowered by China…a communist country.

            Haha!

            Oh, wait, you’re serious. Let me laugh even harder.

            China has a lot of catching up to do. They’re not “overpowering” much.

            But that’s hardly relevant, unless you consider your nation as some defining part of your self. Which I think is harmful.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            i agree about people in usa feeling butthurt about china’s rise to power. you see it in yahoo comments about chinese taking over, taking jobs. it was super funny when some powerful politician came here last year and people were saying “the landlord’s here!” on yahoo hahahaha. but that’s the perception, americans feel like china “owns” america, because we owe china so much money.

            chinese netizens don’t understand why c hina is giving money away. THIS IS WHY. That’s how america wins allies. we give money to countries, even the ones that hate us. if they stop taking our side, we stop giving them money, in the form of sanctions. now china has the usa over a barrel. sure, we could just default on the loan, what are they gonna do about it? But yeah, we also lose face. we can’t say we can pay china back can we, without america’s complete economic collapse. so yeah, usa, pretty butthurt right now when it comes to china. butthurt, and scared of more butthurt lol

          • tai wai

            yahoo comments

            Oh, Jesus Christ.

            When we start using yahoo or youtube comments as some kind of standard on human behavior, I say it’s time to just nuke everything and let nature start over.

            http://xkcd.com/202/

          • Nick in Beijing

            Nanny I can’t reply directly to one of your comments above, so I am replying here.

            In response to your “we know the article is not about forgiving the past. But yoru comment actually has nothing to do with “sick men of asia” unless, you are implying that chinese people are sick with cancer. Is that what you mean?” Comment.

            You talk so much about how you’re a writer, so obviously your grasp of English is “flawless”. So “flawless” in fact that your 1st grade reading skills failed to take into account that my original comment didn’t say “Chinese people are a cancer on Chinese society”. Shall I repost it here? I think so (although I doubt you’ll read it).

            “Those who spout garbage such as “never forgive, never forgot” and the like are a cancer upon their society.

            Weak, simple minded people with eyes in the back of their head on the look-out for sleights and potential threats, but whose front-facing eyes are discolored and unseeing. Blinded by nationalist pride and victim mentality. ”

            Now, do tell where I said that Chinese are a cancer on Chinese society, and tell me where I said that holocaust survivors and the word at large should erase the holocaust from history.

            You can’t, because it’s not there.

            My comment about you thinking white people ought to repent for slavery was an extrapolation on your apparent stance that because I think backwards looking people hinder progress then therefore all travesties in the history of humanity are equally valueless or easily thrown out. If you can pull up things like the holocaust, why not other things like slavery?

            You still haven’t addressed any of the points I made in any of my other posts. None of my posts in fact. You just told me how I am a racist, then told me how perfect your English is, how I can’t pull out the deflecting card on you like I do to all of those non-English speaking people (regardless of the fact that I’ve never used deflecting as a tool in debate on this site).

            Basically you are making yourself look like a whiny black girl upset because a white boy said something less than complimentary about a non-white entity.

            Because you don’t know anything about me, except the few details I’ve mentioned on this site I’m not bothered by you, or threatened by you. I’m not bothered by anything you have to say to me. Funny how you are quick to reply to Linette (a non-white immigrant to the U.S. from Hong Kong) saying you don’t walk in other’s shoes, so you you cannot, no WILL NOT deny what they say, yet when a white boy says something you are all up in his face about it.

            Talk about double standards.

          • linette

            ……lose face….

            They feel like they lose face. That is the problem. They always have to say something on the internet to prove to the Chinese people they are still inferior compare to the western countries. It’s not constructive criticism.

            I feel that every countries have it’s own problem and can do better. Like USa needs to fix it’s economy and stop focusing so much in foreign affair. China needs to fix and reform their gov’t system.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            okay rick you are definitely butthurt.

            “Those who spout garbage such as “never forgive, never forgot” and the like are a cancer upon their society.

            Weak, simple minded people with eyes in the back of their head on the look-out for sleights and potential threats, but whose front-facing eyes are discolored and unseeing. Blinded by nationalist pride and victim mentality. ”
            ——————————–
            okay, admittedly, you didn’t say china explicitly, but given the topic,, i assumed that’s who you were talking about.

            “and tell me where I said that holocaust survivors and the word at large should erase the holocaust from history.”
            ——
            show me where i accused you of saying that? I never did. I said, you said the opposite.
            ————————–
            My comment about you thinking white people ought to repent for slavery———————

            Now i challenge you to show me where i said that?
            ———————
            was an extrapolation on your apparent stance that because I think backwards looking people hinder progress then therefore all travesties in the history of humanity are equally valueless or easily thrown out. If you can pull up things like the holocaust, why not other things like slavery?
            ——————————–

            i don’t pull up slavery because white people draw a blank when you talk about slavery– they lose all comprehension and reasoning skills. which is funny, because they claim the greatness of all of the accomplishments of the forefathers, the ancestors, and all the great things they didn’t do, but when it comes to slavery, they start talking about how they weren’t even born yet, not their fault, didn’t benefit from it, wasn’t in america, blah blah… well don’t claim the good parts of history if you can’t accept the bad along with it. but again, white people can’t separate themselves from slavery to look at it reasonably or from a perspective outside of their own, so it’s a pointless discussion. they’re too defensive and butthurt about it.

          • tai wai

            i don’t pull up slavery because white people draw a blank when you talk about slavery– they lose all comprehension and reasoning skills.

            You might like this.

            http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

            I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon. It’s not that the word “privilege” is incorrect, it’s that it’s not their word. When confronted with “privilege,” they fiddle with the word itself, and haul out the dictionaries and find every possible way to talk about the word but not any of the things the word signifies.

          • BigJ

            Do you think white people are the only ones who have ever had slaves??

          • BigJ

            You are also saying”white people, when you should be americans. Not all all americans but some.Did Canada have slavery??? Black people came to canada from america to escape that. So white people helped them out. You should not look at it like black/white yellow, you should say “good or bad people”. Every race on the planet has these 2 kind of people. But human nature makes us programmed usually make us side with our own color in most cases. If half the people in the world had 2 heads and the other half had one head. How do you think they would group up and who side would they take? 2 headed people would hang together and the one headed people would hang together. And im sure would make talk shit and hate each other becouse of the difference. It’s human nature. The only way we can get along is if we look past each others differences and look at the individual instead of the whole group, but i don’t see that ever happening on a global scale. Well unless 2 headed monsters attack from anouther planet we might all get together as a group and be as one. hahah

        • Nick in Beijing

          Linette — Like Nanny up there I can’t respond directly to something you said, not sure why, so I will respond here.

          “Nick, rick, scott, taiwai
          The impression I am getting at this point from you foreigners living inside China is that you all are suffering from victim mentality. Get out of China before the hatred comsume you. It’s not healthy.”

          I do have a victim mentality from time to time. It is very hard not to have one when every outing results in people gawking at you, and complimenting you to your face in English, but saying bad things in their language because they insist that foreigners can’t understand (nevermind that I am fairly fluent in Mandarin). The constant hassle of trying not to get ripped off because foreigners don’t know how much things cost in China, and all foreigners are super rich and therefore won’t miss the extra money. I have said before that it’s not racism per se, but xenophobia manifest.

          That being said at least I am able to admit that I have a victim mentality sometimes. But I also have ways to cope with it. For one thing I come to China smack and debate and discuss about the stupid and crazy shit that I see in China every day. Almost all of my friends here are Chinese. I have only one friend who speaks English natively (he is from London, not the U.S.) and a smattering of European friends. But I have lived here for 4 and a half years, and if I wanted to go home to the States, or go back to Japan, or to another country it would not be that hard. In fact I have enrolled in university to get a second degree, so I will be staying in China for at least another 5 years (4 years of school, and another year to work).

          Frankly speaking I am not unhappy enough here to justify leaving. I make a good salary doing a job I love, I get to enjoy a variety of foods and have a wonderfully and mercifully diverse group of friends, mostly consisting of locals from different parts of China, and people from Africa, Europe, and North America (haven’t met any South Americans here yet though). I enjoy my life, but that does not mean that I won’t criticize the hell out of things that I regard as being ridiculous.

          Don’t mistake harsh criticism and the relating of negative experience with simple dislike. That is the mistake that many people here make, and it is a faulty assumption.

          • tai wai

            Don’t mistake harsh criticism and the relating of negative experience with simple dislike. That is the mistake that many people here make, and it is a faulty assumption.

            You wouldn’t criticise your “friends.” They’d lose face!

            You’re no friend to Chinese. So, you obviously must hate everything about Chinese people.

            Blah, blah.

          • Nick in Beijing

            I forgot to mention that my coworkers (the Chinese staff and foreign staff) are a good mix of different nationalities and ethnic groups, and venting to them is simultaneously amusing, and relaxing.

            Oh and before Nanny (or anyone else for that matter) tries to dissect my comment to try to find things to call me down on. North American doesn’t consist only of the U.S., there are two other countries there, and one of them doesn’t have English as it’s official language, and the other is bilingual.

          • Nick in Beijing

            To Nanny — Still can’t make direct replies, so here it is.

            “okay rick you are definitely butthurt.

            “Those who spout garbage such as “never forgive, never forgot” and the like are a cancer upon their society.”

            First off it’s Nick, not rick. Probably just a typo though.

            Second thank you for replying directly to my comments now.

            To the meat.

            My beef with you bringing up the holocaust is that you are making comparisons to things that shouldn’t be compared.

            My dislike of people saying ‘never forgive, never forget’ comes from the fact that harboring hatred and anger for past transgressions hinders progress. This is a fact. If there is a room with a mix of ethnicities, all having acted in aggression towards each other before, and they all have a common problem to solve then they may be able to work on it for a while, but I would be willing to bet that in most cases someone would get offended at something and set off a domino effect.

            I disagree with this concept totally. Understanding intellectually that an incident occurred in history whether it be something as large scale as the holocaust or the Nanjing massacre is one thing, but actively bringing up in conversation the concept of never forgiving and never forgetting is an entirely different animal.

            By bringing that up it shows that a person actively dwells on the events of the past, and regardless of who a person is or where they are from, if they are perceived as being related to the past event then responsibility is implicitly laid on the offenders shoulders. This is regard as being wrong.

            I could harbor ancestral hatred towards the Ottomans for what they did to my forefathers in Greece, but it is an entirely moot point at this point in history. Even if the civil war between Cretan Greeks and the Ottomans drove my family off their land and ruined the profitable business that they had going at the time (true family history here, I even went back to Greece this summer to trace my family line) then I still haven’t the right to hold a grudge against Turkey, the seat of the Ottoman empire of the time simply because it’s a historical incident, not something that can be changed, and dwelling on it has no progressive affect on modern history. That’s not even considering that I wasn’t there to experience it personally.

            Telling me that you don’t bring up slavery because white people simply draw a blank and can’t comprehend is an insult to my intelligence both as a member of the Caucasian race, and as a human being who is capable of thought, sympathy, and empathy. This to me sounds dangerously like a racist remark. Should I say that you’re a racist for saying things that I regard as being racist? Or should I discuss it with you and try to find a reasonable way to understand, and hopefully change your perception? I haven’t acted in any blatantly racist manner towards you, even if you’re not a fan of some of my remarks and therefore don’t deserve this tirade from you. If you choose to continue to regard me as being a white person (a division based on skin color, a racist trait) and therefore fundamentally different from you, then that implies that you are at least to some degree aligned against the white man, simply for his being white and we can’t continue to have a conversation.

            Regarding the whole holocaust thing perhaps I misinterpreted your intended meaning. If that’s the case then I can concede that point to you, but I still don’t understand the entire point of your having brought it up. I do however agree that if history is simply forgotten then it is doomed to be repeated. This is a common wisdom that I think most people can agree with, even if they twist it’s meaning for nationalistic ends.

            Saying that I am simply butthurt because I feel threatened by the rise of non-white powers is a generalization that is offensive, but not because it is necessarily the truth. The world is dominated by non-whites simply by numbers. This doesn’t make me feel threatened, in fact I made the conscious decision to live in a country where very few people white people live. I am not an idiot, and I knew what I was getting myself into. That doesn’t mean I can’t complain when I have bad experiences though.

            This is getting too lengthy as it is, so I will stop here.

          • Bringing up slavery to me as if I am responsible in the least is going to have me rolling my eyes rather exaggeratedly so you can definitely see that I am rolling them and thus think your comment is ridiculous. The same with claiming that I take personal pride in the forefathers accomplishments on account of them being white.

            Second of all, why would you bring up slavery with white people? Do you do it just to try and make them apologize for it?

            It’s pathetic that people today feel personally victimized by events so long ago that their parents or even grandparents weren’t even born yet. Seriously pathetic. This is for both sides of issue, too. I pity any black person who acts like they personally experienced slavery in the beginning of US history, and I pity any white person who feels any personal guilt over it just because they were born white.

            It’s time to get over. Don’t forget about it, sure, but definitely get over it.

  • Rick in China

    So much projection. I’d wager I’ve NEVER experienced so much projection as during my time in China. People are so extremely defensive, in general, about everything they feel inadequate about, which is a lot…..and the moment anything closely resembling a comment or question about those subjects becomes an attack on everything Chinese.

    • Beijinger

      I agree. It’s sad, but at the same time a little scary.

    • moonmickey

      Its called BRAINWASHING, they’ve done an amazing job on people right up to the moment the housing bubble bursts and the economy goes down. We can kick all the Chinese with mysterious funds out of our countries then, let the other Chinese stay.

      • Nick in Beijing

        Taxi driver asked me one day for my take on the conflict between China and the Philippines over the South China Sea.

        When I told him that because of it’s proximity to the Philippines I think the islands in question should belong to them, he launched into a huge tirade about evil western people bullying poor china and all this garbage. Then I was like “if you don’t want to risk hearing an opinion other than your own then don’t ask”.

        He didn’t understand that idea at all.

        • tai wai

          You’ve already told that story.

          Better to just say “I think that should be resolved diplomatically; both sides have their respective interests to consider.”

          • Nick in Beijing

            You’re right Tai Wai, but that would be watering down my opinion simply to avoid a confrontation.

            My question in that case is, why should there be a confrontation to begin with? Why must everything be made out as a case of national pride? The Chinese understanding of “diplomacy” is the same as the U.S. in many ways, just on a smaller scale. Use economic leverage, and the implied application of military force to coerce significantly weaker neighbors into submission.

            This, I think, is why China insists that foreign powers shouldn’t get involved with the South China Sea disputes. If China’s neighbors don’t have U.S. support, then it would be significantly easier for China to badger it’s neighbors into agreement. There is no force in Asia that could stand against China’s military and economic power as it is now. And this is the stance that a comment such as “it should be resolved diplomatically” would invoke. Not my opinion at all, so I can not say it that way.

        • kodi

          One taxi driver asked me why the USA always bullies China. He went on to talk about American planes and ships patrolling the ocean around China and setting up bases in East Asia. I simply said, “Its international politics.” When China has the power to do the same then it most probably will. Its difficult to explain a complex situation like this to a cab driver who served in the PLA and fought allied forces during the Korean war.

          Why does the Chinese government make all the rules and run a strict one party system? Because they have all the damn guns! If they didn’t then who would listen to them? Two powers like China and the USA are needed to balance this world system. Its nothing personal.

          • I had a taxi driver in Kunming tell me that he loves Americans but couldn’t care less about the British. He said he liked the Americans because apparently we shipped all of our wartime aid into Kunming during WWII. His reason for hating the British was…you guessed it…Opium Wars.

          • moop

            you’ll find 4 year olds in kunming who know more about the flying tigers than most americans

          • Rick in China

            Same as 4 year olds who know who Bai Chou Wen? or whatever was, the Canadian doctor guy, with Canadians – I doubt more than a handful of Canadians know who he was – other than his family.

          • linette

            moopi , do you hate Chinese people?

          • moop

            “moopi , do you hate Chinese people?”

            why would me saying that four year old chinese children in kunming know more about the flying tigers than americans?

          • moop

            why would me saying that four year old chinese children in kunming know more about the flying tigers than americans mean that i hate chinese people?

          • blah

            There is no excuse for the shameless US encirclement of China.

            That being said there is no excuse for the shameless bullying of southeast asian coutnries by China.

          • Thank-you blah! This needed pointing out by someone! Cheers and have a good day…

      • Capt. WED

        You guys at the same time feel like everyone in China gets defensive.

        YEP. I’m perfect!

        OH PLUULLLLEEEZE.

    • linette

      Rick in China,
      I am living in the western world. I am convinced that most white people hate Chinese people. What do you think? Am I right?

      • Rick in China

        I think most white people you meet probably hate *you*. That doesn’t mean most white people hate Chinese people. Although, along the lines I posted above, you’d likely take hate on you as a racist hatred against all Chinese and everything China.

        What do you think? Am I right?

        • linette

          Thank you Rick,

          I think most Chinese people you meet probably hate *you*. That doesn’t mean most Chinese people hate White or black people. Although, along the lines I posted above, you’d likely take hate on you as a racist hatred against all White and black and everything western.

          What do you think? Am I right?

          • Rick in China

            How original. Good job Linette, you can copy something. As an Asian woman, that’s a SHOCKING surprise.

            The problem is, contexually, it isn’t much of a dig. Why? Because I never said Asian people hate White people. I’ve a good life in China, actually. I hang out with as many Chinese as foreigners..and in my company, was the only white guy for ~7 years in an office of 100+ and got along great with my teams. Why? Because we all had mutual respect and enough social skill to get along with each other. I don’t think any of them hated white people. I never had that perception, unlike you.

            Maybe it’s because you lack what we had: social skill and respect, and as a result, think everyone hates Asians because they don’t like you.

            I’d ask what you think, but I don’t care. And..I am right.

          • tai wai

            Why? Because we all had mutual respect and enough social skill to get along with each other. I don’t think any of them hated white people. I never had that perception, unlike you.

            Second.

            I’ve been in multiple situations where I did meet someone that just outright dispised me the moment they laid eyes on me.

            That’s usually remedied with some rather simple actions. Buy them a couple beers, sit down with them, and say “朋友” a lot. Mention how awesome China’s acendancy is. How you feel lucky to be here at this point in time.

            You know, regular stuff. Being friendly.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            “How original. Good job Linette, you can copy something. As an Asian woman, that’s a SHOCKING surprise.”

            Not cool bro. Why you gotta make it racial? LOL You k now someone is losing an argument when they start in on race.

          • Rick in China

            Get over it Hiccups. The whole thread is about race.

          • Rick in China

            @Tai Wai RE: “I’ve been in multiple situations where I did meet someone that just outright dispised me the moment they laid eyes on me.”

            I’m sure we all have. I don’t think that should be attributed to *race*, though. I’ve met lots of white people who *I* have just outright despised the moment I laid eyes on them too :D

            Like you said, a few drinks and a short chat later, sometimes that perception changes..but I think the misconception here is that it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with where you’re from or what ethnicity you are, it could be for a thousand reasons – the person had a bad day, thought you looked at them wrong, saw you doing something they don’t like, was drunk and just in an angry mood, whatever..

            There are definitely racists in every country, against any given race..we can all agree on that. It doesn’t make it right to say something as stupid as “Everyone from X hates Y”, although I’d say a close call would be Chinese/Korean hatred for Japanese – that’s probably one of the highest ratios of general national hate, maybe comparable to Tutsi/Hutu :D

          • tai wai

            it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with where you’re from or what ethnicity you are

            Oh, sure. But in a couple cases they specifically started the conversation with “I don’t like Americans.”

            I told them that I wasn’t too fond of many of them, myself.

          • linette

            nanny,
            I never really had any bad experience with white people. In public I am comfortable with them….like sitting on a bus. Shopping inside their stories. Getting seated in their restaurants. I don’t feel like they treat me different because I am Asian.
            Actually they are very friendly toward me. Or maybe because I am a young woman. I don’t know. At work nothing special. The white men flirt a lot like they would flirt with any girls. Make Asian jokes trying to be macho. Asian guys are not flirty. Not aggressive like them. White women are just like asian women have nice and mean ones.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            oh lol yeah pretty accurate. women in general are mean. i hate working around women, they are fucking terrible with each other. coming from an environment where i was one of the only females, guys — even if they are upset one day, they are over it later. women they carry long grudges.

            every woman wants to be the prettiest woman in the room. they have whorish hearts – don’t want any other woman around, unless she’s uglier.

          • fenqing basher

            Hahaha, see Ricks response, nothing to add. Good job Rick.

      • Scott

        Rick in China,

        I am living in the Eastern world. I am convinced that most Chinese people hate white people. What do you think? Am I right?

        • Rick in China

          That was good, but I like mine better ;)

          • Scott

            Rick in China,

            I grant you that.

            Regards,

            Scott in China

        • tai wai

          I think you know the wrong kind of people.

        • linette

          No Scott, I do not think most Chinese hate white or black people.

      • tai wai

        You, too.

      • Nanny Hiccups

        linette, i am interested in this. i have always had the perception that asian people are perceived to be the “model” immigrants in the usa. but i don’t know, because i don’t walk in other people’s shoes so i cannot, will not deny what you say. i just never see it. what is your experience like as an asian person in white america? i’ve always thought that asians and white people got on very well.

        • Rick in China

          In my neck of the woods – although it’s Canada – they do.

          Asian immigrants in general make better students and have more money than immigrants from some other countries – one big reason is that many immigrants can “buy” their way in to a country through a reasonably sized investment – so the economic situation for immigrants who buy their way in is a little better – which usually results in a better perception of them in general. I’ve never met anyone in Canada who “hated” Asians. They surely exist, just never met one. I grew up with kids from many countries – one of my best friends was Japanese, and one was Chinese – I never truly thought of them as anything other than Canadian, and still don’t.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            same in america. chinese people are chill. they don’t mess with anybody or start trouble, they mind their studies at school, work hard, i can’t find a fault in them.

          • linette

            no..nanny. This is universal. The locals always have a bit of discrimination against foreigners. People in general do have a bit of discrimination against people outside their race. It’s universal. So I do believe there is racism everywhere. It’s all around us. White people do have discrimination against Chinese. Vice versa.

            I have seen White people making fun of Chinese people talking. .going chinchochun…

          • Rick in China

            “I have seen” != general mentality.

            Because you see one thing once, or a few times, doesn’t equate to “most people” feel a certain way. *That* is your mistake, and likely the cause for your mistaken perception based on living in the US for whatever short period of time of how “US people” feel.

      • Hi Linette… Is the USA really that bad? The Oriental diaspora in London, Paris and Berlin are regarded quite highly. I thought that in the last ten years the “Wendi Deng” and “Lucy Liu” effect might have raised the profile of diaspora somewhat, and allowed you to be seen as strong, fun and humorous additions to the American nation…

        • It’s not.
          I think she actually lives in Hong Kong.

          • tai wai

            That almost explains it for me.

            Hong Kong is nothing more than one big ladder of “I’m better than you” poop.

            British look down on Hong Kong Chinese.
            Hong Kong Chinese look down on mainlanders, Filipinos, etc.
            And so on.

            They seem to care a bit too much about their social positions there. holdover from tehe colonials, I guess?

          • Well, they’re all crammed together on a tiny island. I can imagine the cabin fever is pretty strong.

          • tai wai

            Iunno, Macau is even more densly populated, and Macanese people don’t seem so damned snobbish to me. They’re really cool, in my experience.

            But maybe that’s because most of the big businesses are run, and operated by Hong Kong Chinese, so the Macanese are on the receiving end of their snobbery, too.

          • linette

            tai wai, you never been to hong kong. Let me explain. In general on the internet HK people don’t hate or look down at Mainlanders. We are aware of the power of China gov’t. There are many China Chinese coming down to HK to buy up all the millions dollar condos using their corrupted money. I will say HK people hate the China’s gov’t and the corrupted China officials. We don’t like snobbish rich China people mistreating us. We don’t like china women flooding our ER to give last minute birth to obtain HK birth certificates so their babies have access to hk benefits without them paying hk gov’t tax. Hk people feel bad that China rural Chinese get mistreated under the China’s gov’t. We want them to get justice and equality treatment from their gov’t. We wish them well. We don’t hate china chinese.

            And the British while they were occupying HK, Hk citizens don’t have too much contact with them. Majority of the hk gov’t officials are cantonese HK native. Not british. The whole Hk gov’t except for the chief minister are pretty much All cantonese. We run our own hk gov’t. Not too many british people living in HK neither. We do have a lot of Australians, fino, indians, some british….like the foreigners are very mixed. So in reality, hk people don’t have too much direct contact with British officials when it was under british.

          • tai wai

            tai wai, you never been to hong kong. Let me explain. In general on the internet HK people don’t hate or look down at Mainlanders.

            Ok. What about Filipinos? Don’t look down on them, either?

            Yes, I have been to Hong Kong. Multiple times. I know that Hong Kong people are, more often than not, jerks.

        • linette

          richardnorth,
          In general public in big cities in USA, they do regard Asians as more wealthy and educated. The Stereotypes of Chinese are: smart, educated, hard working, more shy and quiet don’t bother nobody.

          But that doesn’t mean there are no racism. It’s human nature. The jews are rich but they get made fun of too you know. People are like stereotyping and making fun of other race. In USA there are racism too.

          • Rick in China

            You’ve backtracked.
            Earlier you said “MOST whites hate Chinese”, now you say “in general…. they do regard asians”… with good stereotyping features, rather than negative. Then you say it doesn’t mean there is NO racism.

            So, essentially, you flip from “Most whites hate chinese” to “Racism does exist sometimes”. Get your own thoughts straight, you contradict yourself far too often between your own posts.

          • linette

            Rick, I believe in this:

            This is universal. The locals always have a bit of discrimination against foreigners. People in general do have a bit of discrimination against people outside their race. It’s universal. So I do believe there is racism everywhere. It’s all around us. White people do have discrimination against Chinese. Vice versa.

            Those so called stereotypes about Asians for the most part are true. They are not just opinions or perceptions from the white people. So that doesn’t say much about hating or not hating asians.

          • Rick in China

            linette, like I said, you’re ALL OVER the place. What you just said is the most moderated and sane thing, which everyone can agree with, “racism exists everywhere to some extent”. Of course there is “some” racism everywhere. That’s not what you’ve been spouting about in this thread, though, let me pass you quotes flipping between notions:

            “I am convinced that most white people hate Chinese people.”‘
            vs.
            “In general public in big cities in USA, they do regard Asians as more wealthy and educated. The Stereotypes of Chinese are: smart, educated, hard working, more shy and quiet don’t bother nobody.”
            and
            “I never really had any bad experience with white people.
            Actually they are very friendly toward me.”

            HUH? So which is it? Do *MOST* white people hate Chinese? Evidenced by your own admission of stereotyping them as generally good hard working people? And treating you directly well? Where’s your “most” nonsense coming from, then?

            “There are many China Chinese coming down to HK to buy up all the millions dollar condos using their corrupted money. I will say HK people hate the China’s gov’t and the corrupted China officials. We don’t like snobbish rich China people mistreating us. We don’t like china women flooding our ER to give last minute birth to obtain HK birth certificates so their babies have access to hk benefits without them paying hk gov’t tax.”
            then
            “We don’t hate china chinese.”

            So “HK”ers don’t look down on or hate mainlanders, only pretty much all of them who end up coming down to HK.

          • Kong

            There is a difference between joking about stereotypes, and accepting stereotypes. When you accept stereotypes, you stop treating others like people, and more like objects in your head.

            There are as many rich jews as poor jews. More than 20% of the jews in New York live on food stamps (okay, I’m setting myself up for some jokes here :P). There are as many leftist jews as rightist jews; and as many smart jews as stupid jews. Why? Because jews are people, not carbon-copy objects.

            Make sure that you know the difference between humor and racism.

          • linette

            Rick.
            ….”I am convinced that most white people hate Chinese people”..

            This is a trolling sentence from me to you. That was my first post talkin to you.
            “Hate” is a very strong word. I wanted to see your reaction because you kept complaining about China.

            I will have to say I am convinced that in general people all have a bit of racism/discrimination in them.

          • Linette, for every instance of racism which exists in our world, there’s an equal and opposite instance of interracial love. (Adapted from Newton’s Third Law).

          • linette

            rick,
            ………So “HK”ers don’t look down on or hate mainlanders, only pretty much all of them who end up coming down to HK……

            Yes, we Hkers hate corruptions and mean nasty China people who mistreat us. We like hard working kind nice china people. We get along well and even many intermarriages. Alot China women married hk men and they moved to HK. Many don’t speak Cantonese fluently. Their family are still inside China.
            Many also have their own village or town foods that they enjoy more than local hk foods.
            I have so many China chinese friends. They introduce me some of their childhood candies that they grew up with in China. I thought that was sweet of them.

          • David.is.Dawei

            Hi Linette,

            I think we are all influenced by whatever society we live in.

            Stereotypes usually exist for a reason; there is (or was) usually some degree of truth to them Even though they may not apply to everyone in that race/creed/group. I think it is normal to have some preconceived notions ahead of time, until you have the opportunity to meet and judge someone as an individual.

            Sometimes they prove to be true, sometimes they are not. Either way, I do my best to let my experience with that person determine how I treat them going forward.

            Racism (in my opinion) takes it to another level, when you take action against someone (e.g. – not hiring them) based on those prejudices.

            In the USA, I believe fear or concern about being “politically correct” has hurt this country because it stifles debate when people are worried about offending anyone. I am new to China, so maybe I will change my mind over time, but I find their lack of concern over being politically correct refreshing.

            I have been to some remote parts of China and have experienced that strange feeling of always being stared at. Maybe it’s the height, the blue eyes or the white skin, but I could never imagine how a black person might have felt (when black friends told me their stories) until I went through this. I heard what they had told me, but now I could finally begin to understand what they were sharing with me.

            Cheers,

            Dave

          • linette

            richardnorth,
            ……….. for every instance of racism which exists in our world, there’s an equal and opposite instance of interracial love. (Adapted from Newton’s Third Law)…………..

            I like that. That’s sweet. I have nothing against interracial love or marriages. Love has no color, or religion, or politics..etc..

            richard,you still didn’t tell me why helicopter a woman must mentioned to a man. Where did you get that theory?

          • If a man has a helicopter he is probably a good catch. You wanted to know how to find a wealthy man. It was just light-hearted banter. Please ignore and move on. *Apologies to the more serious folks.*

          • linette

            richardnorth
            haaha..I see. I was wondering why you mention that helicopter.
            I was just joking about finding a wealthy man. I was just telling someone here about life in HK and how stressful it is because it’s big city very competitive life. I get tired sometimes with all the competition. Maybe I should just marry rich and relax. That’s a joke. Don’t take it seriously. I doubt I will get marry anytime soon or settle down. I still have to work to pay off my student loans. Can’t have kids with too much loans on my back. lol.

          • linette

            richardnorth, I live in USA by the way. I might move back to HK some day. I have uSA and HK citizenship- dual nationality. We hongkongers are allowed to keep our HK citizenship. It’s our birth right. Keeping our hk benefits. hehehe…

          • linette

            Hello David.is.Dawei

            ……………. I have been to some remote parts of China and have experienced that strange feeling of always being stared at………………

            I believe you. Like I said, stuff like that happens everywhere. It’s universal. I went to kentucky and the white people were staring at me studying me. They were very curious and wanted to talk to me. Like the first time they see a live Asian person. Not on TV.hahaha.. so cute.

          • Hi Linette… If someone looking like Eduard Saverin, Donald Trump or George Clooney stares at you, they might just be flirting, and it is safe to flirt back. One day you’re going to have to find sex, love and maybe more from a man (assuming you’re heterosexual). All the best in this great mission.

  • Germandude

    “the Chinese are never going to agree with this.
    true or not they want to think the west doesnt like them or looks down on them
    in fact i think the people in power want the public to think this way.”

    This pretty much sums it up. The same procedure as every government always did and probably always will do. Create an enemy outside of your own borders. The Romans said they were superior towards their neighbours “so let’s conquer them”. Napoleon convinced the people to be the strongest nation “so let’s kill our enemies”. Hitler told the Germans that Jewish are worthless and dangerous “so it’s just fair to invade other countries and march east”.
    If this doesn’t work, you create an enemy by proclaiming that there is a threat to you.
    “Vietnam is about to be conquered by communism, so we must defend it because otherwise we might be next”. “Terrorism is endangering our country, so let’s mess up with the terrorists”. And so on, and so on.

    If a government is weak (and unfortunately ALL governments are weak), it creates enemies in order to unite the rabble. Always has and always will.

    If the US citizens are losing their jobs, of course it’s because of Mexican immigrants. If the European exports are down, it’s cheap products from China. If the Chinese workers don’t earn enough, it’s because of western imperialistic companies paying too low wages. If Aussies are too lazy to work on low paid jobs, the reason is of course cheap labour immigrating into the country from Asia.

    The good thing is: not everyone falls for the propaganda from media and governments all over the world.
    The bad thing is: The majority does.

    • mr. wiener

      I thought you were on holiday?

    • Nick in Beijing

      Good post Germandude.

    • “Create an enemy outside of your own borders.” Spot-on dude. Many in East and SE Asia are expecting skirmishes on the high seas in the next year or two, as the Spratly Islands continue to be at the centre of a tug-of-love between six sovereign nations.

  • Charles

    Chinese people love their victim status… Don’t threaten that. What else will people whine about, if you demonstrate that most of the world has an overwhelmingly positive view of China, actually much more positive than the country deserves.

    • tai wai

      Well, if they couldn’t bitch about “The West,” then I’d guess that they’d probably bitch and moan about the same things that most people bitch and moan about.

      Religion, politics, economic inequality…

      Oh.

      Carry on, then.

    • Stu

      “most of the world has an overwhelmingly positive view of China”

      Mother of all [citations needed].

  • I’m glad I’m not as butthurt about the plethora of rude comments people have for Americans as these guys (in the comments and whoever else in China is upset by it) are about this “sick man of Asia” thing. I would live a life of misery and fury. Imagine the severe headaches and sore teeth from constantly clenching your jaw whenever you hear anything about these big bad meanies in the West. Or whoever it is you’re taking too seriously. Imagine your anger and butthurt being so incredibly bad that it’s all you know, the only way you can define yourself, that when someone says “hey, they actually didn’t really say this” that you flip out and call them liars, traitors, etc. That would be so depressing.

    • tai wai

      It is kinda strange, isn’t it?

      “The West wasn’t looking down on the Chinese people in this case. In fact, it was Chinese people who put themselves down.”

      “Liar! Traitor! We ARE weak! … So, uh, fark the West!”

      ..?

    • Nanny Hiccups

      the problem is caring too much about what westerners think. who gives a crap if they call them sick men of asia. if i had a billion people in ONE country, I would point my fingers and laugh at little old usa, britain, watever.

      but i guess it hurts to be thought of something you are not, particularly when that other culture has enough reach to slander your image around the world.

      • tai wai

        So, these nationalists care too much what Westerners think of them, and that is the Westerners fault.

        Huh.

        • Nanny Hiccups

          no, it’s their own fault. stop caring so much about the west. every goal they have seems oriented toward beating the west. i think, in my personal uninformed, unecessary opinion that china would be great if and when it empowers its people and take care of them.

          • tai wai

            no, it’s their own fault. stop caring so much about the white people. every goal they have seems oriented toward beating the white people. i think, in my personal uninformed, unecessary opinion that the black community would be great if and when it empowers its people and take care of them.

            I think I gotcha.

          • BigJ

            I agree with you. They care way to much.

          • BigJ

            too’

      • Rick in China

        Except that your whole straw man is false, and it was their own perception and publication of that perception which slandered THEMSELVES, and in fact nobody foreign actually slandered them.

        If the measure of a country was by the country’s population, I guess Canada, and therefor me (being Canadian), is a piece of shit. The Sick Man of Western Countries, oh no, what shall I do. :(

        • tai wai

          I’m starting to think this whole website is just strawmen and bullshit.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            you are right.

          • linette

            Yes tai wai, this website is just a bxllshit site for you bitches taiwai, rick, nick, scott to come here to moan….

            Come here and let me slap you bitches a bit.
            hahaha…

          • tai wai

            Come here and let me slap you bitches a bit.
            hahaha…

            Sounds kinky, but I don’t think the wifey would approve.

        • Capt. WED

          bullshit. That’s because they didn’t know the proper nomenclature was supposed to be “Chinaman” and not “Sick man of Asia”.

          Just from the history you know at that time it was not all liberal PC like today. It’s like sometimes you claim there is progress, then other time pretend it’s been the same all along, meaning no progress. ???

          • tai wai

            I don’t read that as “Westerners have never slighted Chinese.”

            The point is that this one is a perceived slight. What is it good for?

            Only for perpetuating nationalism, and a victim mentality.

            But around the years of 1903, Chinese intellectuals, represented by Liang Qichao, suddenly forcibly twisted the meaning of the West’s “Sick Man Theory”. In The Theory of New People he published that year, Liang Qichao used “Sick Men” for the first time to describe all Chinese–”the people nationwide are lifeless as sick men”.

            In An Alarm to Awaken the Age that Chen Tianhua wrote in 1903 he said: “When the foreigners don’t call (Chinese) Sick Men of the East, they call us a barbaric lowly race”.

            These guys were furthering their own nationalistic and racist aims.

            For example, from the linked wiki:

            (Chen) integrated traditional values into a pattern of racial solitary in his pamphlets, read throughout the Yangzi valley. He argued that men are close only to people of their own family, and that when two families fight, one only assists ones own family. He argued that the Han race was one big family, and that the Yellow Emperor is the great ancestor, all those who were not Han were from exterior families. Kin terms were infused into racial rhetoric that called for emotional expressions. “Racial feeling begins at birth. For the members of one’s own race, there is surely mutual intimacy and love: for the members of a foreign race, there is surely mutual savagery”.[7][8][9]

          • Twind

            We have to remember that China was very weak at the time (late 19th and early 20th centuries) and Western domination was at its height. Given that social darwinism and nationalism were both influential ideas at the time, it became quite obvious why many Chinese thinkers sought to adapt these ideologies in the hopes that they could strengthen China, for they really felt China was in serious danger. Themes like race and survival of the fittest became popular. Many writers criticized their countrymen with the intention of “waking” them up so they could eventually become “modern”. Hence we see terms like “sick men” appearing in their writings. Though some of these writers did adjust their views later on, such as Liang himself, who after witnessing the destruction of WWI, wrote that intense nationalism and social darwinism were not the ways of the future.

      • linette

        They watch too much hollywood movies. Too much “western standard” set by the movies. They need to watch more Hong kong movies. lol.

        • fenqing basher

          You live in HK and the US, thus you have no clue what people living in the real china are talking about. Well lets wait and see after your schools are converted.

        • Nanny Hiccups

          i own a collection of old school/classic HK action movies. They are my prized collection. Sometimes I trade them with dudes online, or burn them and trade them (bootleg) lol

          • linette

            burn them and trade them (bootleg) lol……………

            lol, nanny you are funny. Are you sure you are not Chinese. Watch Hk movies. Do pirating. lol..

          • Nanny Hiccups

            lol linette. i have tomboy tendancies. i go to web sites like http://kungfucinema.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

            you should go there and read, and just see how these westerners worship old HK action stars lol

      • Why would you point at people and laugh because of your own overpopulation problem? Overpopulation is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problems facing the world. Sustainability is pretty important.

        • linette

          whiskersthecat, do you hate Chinese people?

          • tai wai

            My brain is starting to hurt.

          • Where did this question come from? Pointing out that an overpopulation problem is a huge threat to the environment and sustainability, and thus nothing to be proud of (in response to Nanny’s comment that China should point and laugh at some Western nations out of pride of it’s huge population)…that means I hate Chinese people? I don’t recalling hating anyone. What is wrong with you?

          • linette

            no whiskersthecat..I am just teasing you. hug hug. :)

          • GOOD
            Because otherwise…well…nothing

    • Rick in China

      On point. +1

  • Mark

    As a Chinese, I do not feel my physical build is of “sick man” type.

    Taking a look at the political system and the amount of care, benefit, accountability that it provides to the people, we all know the truth.

    • Stu

      And there’s the medical system… China is not a good place to truly be a ‘sick man’.

  • Dat Ankle

    First time hearing that term but a quick google search said it had to do with European powers oppressing China. I dont know why theyre getting so angry with its meaning, I guess it makes them feel better to win in sports with the mistranslation of that term.

  • kodi

    Whatever it meant there are still many sick people everywhere. Get over it. If they are sick then call them sick.

  • Capt. WED

    I find it funny people on this site see themselves as hapless victims then saying everyone has a victim mentality except them.

    • Scams, theft, bacteria, viruses, attempted GF poaching, a need to upgrade skills in the expatriate workplace to keep pace with other work-hungry migrants, car / motorcycle / bicycle accidents, language difficulties… Best to manage risk by assuming there is a chance of becoming a victim of something somewhere at some time. A hapless victim is someone who becomes a victim maybe ten times in quick succession. Very few people posting stuff on chinaSMACK through their broadband connection are likely to be hapless.

      • Nick in Beijing

        Don’t even try richardnorth. With the thousands of articles, posts, comments, and replies explaining every reason why someone might be justified devolving into victimhood living in China, none of the Chinese posters on this site will acknowledge that China is a victim factory.

        Westerners come/go to China for work, love, understanding, education, fun, interest, whatever and most of the time they leave jaded, angry, and spiteful.

        Why is this? It’s because Chinese society abuses the fuck out of people. Not only abusing certain groups of people, but abusing everyone. Foreigners who live here happen to get a raw deal with that abuse because on one hand foreigners are treated with kid gloves, and on the other hand they did not grow up in this environment here, so take those various abuses much harder.

        Things like having to duke it out with entire families of people in a confrontation when most of the time the foreigner is in China entirely on their own, mob mentality against foreigners, liars cheaters and thieves whom foreigners have no recourse against because of things like language barriers, culture barriers, numerical disadvantage and the bystander syndrome that is so heavily present in China.

        The locals grew up in this environment and have learned how to cope with and handle it, the foreigner who has been here for 6 months or a year is likely undergoing immense culture shock and is barely functional outside of the protective ring of foreign friends they may have gathered.

        • …the foreigner who has been here for 6 months or a year is likely undergoing immense culture shock and is barely functional outside of the protective ring of foreign friends they may have gathered. Nick you’re a goldmine of info on the People’s Rough-public of China. I found the culture shock happened exactly as you portray above – and this is in China-lite (Singapore). CHEERS!

        • Twind

          It sounds like you are having a tough time living there. I feel for you. China is a very tough place to live, especially for those of us who grew up in the West. I guess the best way to handle this situation is to stay positive. Certainly knowing the language and the culture would help, as most of the Westerners I know tend to have more positive experiences in China, due to the fact that they have the language skills. But yeah, it is difficult. If you happen to be able to make some Chinese friends(not easy, I know, and it goes both ways), it should help you. Good luck!

          • Nick in Beijing

            Personally I’m not having a terribly tough time. I have been in China for just over 4 and a half years, and only been back home once, and to Europe once in my time here.

            I have more or less acclimated, but the scars of my vaunted ideals of China being a land of friendly, culturally rich people that work hard for the prosperity of all and for the greater good held upon arriving here and promptly being burned away have branded me. I am fairly fluent in Chinese, can read and write fairly well, have a good thing going with a Beijinger chick and like my job and friends and students. I have acclimated fairly well here, but from personal experience I know that if you aren’t prepared then the sheer level of shock and revulsion the average foreigner will experience when living here is enough to turn love and adoration into hate and disgust if that shock is not tempered and balanced by other things. I had lived in Japan before living in China, so I was already prepared for the culture shock. Woe to the poor bastard who wasn’t so prepared.

            I have seen people return home with diagnosed depression after living in China for a year or so, and it doesn’t surprise me at all.

          • I’m telling you guys. Do your time in the big house and then come to Taiwan. You’ll get here seeing things that look too similar to China for you to not immediately feel like you can’t trust a damned thing you see or hear, and then you’ll realize…hey…you actually can trust. People are genuine. That isn’t bioluminescence from irradiated bugs in the atmosphere…it’s an actual blue sky above the capital city! What wonders, what amazement. I have no idea if this place is fun, exciting, or wonderful to people who didn’t go to China first, but for those of us with our teardrop tattoos for every year we spent in China, it’s a pretty good step up.

          • Except, I forgot to add, there’s a shit ton of hipsters in Taiwan and there’s a bit more foreigners with that “he’s-probably-a-weeaboo” look to them.

          • Capt. WED

            You are experiencing these things because you decide to move to China. 45% of your woes is due to the fact you decide to move all the way across the world to China. 55% is due to China just being shitty.

            No matter where you go, you will find aspects of the country will treat you differently simply because you are from there. This relationship is further colored by culture, history, race, and religion. But the foundation issue is you ARE NOT THEM. Conversely you are on the other side of the equation, THEY ARE NOT YOU. This fundamental relationship between a portion of natives and you is where all conflict arises. I’m going to call this F from now on.

            “none of the Chinese posters on this site will acknowledge that China is a victim factory.”

            The fundamental issue is due to F. Personal anecdote: I’ve been called chink on the school bus. In general, etc.That doesn’t justify any hatred tho. There is no need to feel like a victim. Don’t take it personal, it’s all due to F.


            WHATEVER come/go to X COUNTRY for work, love, understanding, education, fun, interest, whatever and most of the time they leave jaded, angry, and spiteful.

            Why do you feel entitled to a more fulfilling experience when you decided to move half way across the world? You are not special. Millions of people across the world migrate to foreign countries. Majority of them starts with nothing and have to work very hard. You bet they face many difficulties on their journey. Everyone in the end expects better things that why they move in the first place. One difference is that because as a westerner moving to a “lesser” country you expect to have a great experience. Hey you don’t have to work in Chinese restaurants while getting a degree (contrary to assumptions that oversea students are all rich; most of them work).

            “Why is this? It’s because Chinese society abuses the fuck out of people. Not only abusing certain groups of people, but abusing everyone. Foreigners who live here happen to get a raw deal with that abuse because on one hand foreigners are treated with kid gloves, and on the other hand they did not grow up in this environment here, so take those various abuses much harder.

            This follows from what I wrote about. Why do you feel more entitled. Do you not think what you wrote above do not apply to millions of migrants across the world? Abuses? You mean like the ones where you don’t have to work minimum wages picking fruits in the sun? Don’t have to earn $800 dollars as a mexican working at some shit Chinese place with a bunch of stupid ass CHinese people? Or not have to deal with the constant barrage of stereotypes from the media? From other natives? LOL you are special we know.

            “Things like having to duke it out with entire families of people in a confrontation when most of the time the foreigner is in China entirely on their own, mob mentality against foreigners, liars cheaters and thieves whom foreigners have no recourse against because of things like language barriers, culture barriers, numerical disadvantage and the bystander syndrome that is so heavily present in China.

            Feel really special now don’t you? Replace foreigner with ANY GODDAMN MIGRANT GROUP. All due to F you fuck.


            The locals grew up in this environment and have learned how to cope with and handle it, the foreigner who has been here for 6 months or a year is likely undergoing immense culture shock and is barely functional outside of the protective ring of foreign friends they may have gathered.

            I hereby now promote you to the RANK OF MAJOR OF CHINASMACK SPECIAL-ED OPS DIVISION. Salute!

            F=FAIL

  • kodi

    Anger and frustration are borne from guilt. If you say something about someone and they get offended its probably because they feel guilty or the statement is true. If it is not true or has nothing to do with them then they should simply ignore the comment. Simple minds talk about people, good minds talk about events, and great minds make things happen.

    • Capt. WED

      really now? You are a stupid cunt. You must feel guilty or you are really a stupid cunt.

      • Capt. WED

        I am stupid. Not all anger and frustration are borne from guilt. If I troll you constantly and you won’t ever get angry?

        • mr. wiener

          Goddamit, take your medication to the end of the script!

  • Capt. WED

    LOL I just realized this whole website is guilt trips. (Actually I’ve known this for awhile).

    I talked about how in the West there are all kinds of stereotypes, prejudices, etc (this goes against the narrative of this site). It seemed to hit a major nerve with people on this site, so now they all have to respond by pointing out all the fucked up things they experienced that’s so beyond their expectations. Fact: people who move to Asia are a very tiny minority. China especially is culturally very different from the west and former colonies. Of course you will find many things beyond your expectation. Most people consider China to be a polluted, tyrannical, non-free, yet still exotic place who steals from the west and produces nothing but cheap crap (at the same time exotic). Most people would not think about “moving to China.” Fact.

    This not a guilt trip from me. I could care less about CHina. Just pointing out the reality of this website. Yes I have issues. You guys have issues too lol.

    • Nick in Beijing

      I think that last sentence is one of the most reasonable things I’ve seen you write in a while Capt. WED.

      • BigJ

        Yeah you’re right.

  • jeffli

    I think the writer Lu Xun, caught the zeitgeist of emerging modern china.

    All his works have been translated to English too.

    First time I heard of “sick men of China”

    I’ve heard of a generalization for a Chinese man – “China John”
    referring to the “lao bai xing” of China.

    during teh height of cold wars in the seventies China was referred to as the “yellow peril” (threat of communism into S.E. asia and on to Australia during the 60s and 70s)

    just as there were capitalist pigs, western infidels, capitalist roaders, blah blah

    Lets move on now ….as Deng Xiao Ping said:-
    “to get rich is glorious”,
    “black cat / white cat”

    as the South Park policeman once said:-
    “move along now. nothing to see here, cows turn themselves inside out all the time!”

    • mr. wiener

      “Sick man of asia”.Is more a saying from the 19 century and early twentieth. The labal has however stuck in Chinese people’s heads and they imagine it is how westerners view them, both culturally and physically.
      Australians used to have a similar reaction every time Pommies uttered the word “convict” , though time and all the other cultures coming to Oz has diluted the sting of this slur, in fact now it is a badge of pride. I can’t see Chinese being proud of “the sick man of asia” label any time soon.
      The opium wars\epidemic and the century of degredation China suffered are interesting parallels in the Chinese psyche. They were both launched by the greedy and unprincipled western nations unquestionably, but once the damage was done the destruction wreaked apon China was largely it’s own citizens doing. From the vast quantities of opium grown and traded to the Chinese by their own countrymen to the self destruction of the civil wars and cultural revolution. This is why the label has stuck and will continue to stick for long to come. Historically the Chinese have to face some very conflicting facts about themselves: “5000 years of civilization\we invented everything [and did nothing with it]\The foreigners f*cked us over\we f*cked ourselves over\we really suck\we’re going to be the most powerful country in the world.
      It is little wonder some subjects should be approached …….carefully.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2ZrFphSmc

        my dream is for China to be the next nuclear armed Serbia. At this rate its likely to to be the future

        • Nick in Beijing

          Considering China IS nuclear armed, and becoming increasingly belligerent towards it’s neighbors on the West…

  • Hello everyone. I just came back from some place at the top of Taipei Main Station that has some craft beers. I had my rounds with their selection. Had I had one more, I might have been the sick man of my bathroom. Anyway, everyone get along.

    • Grammar and spelling fine. I suspect you’ve only consumed 10-20 units of alcohol. All the best dude.

      • Haha man I read over this several times trying to make sure it’s correct.
        I have a lordly image to uphold.

    • linette

      Hahahaha…whiskersthecat..thank you for clarifiying that everyone get along. You are too cute. Were you drinking too much? I hope you won’t wake up next to a wrong woman.

      • Drinking can give us guys the Dutch courage to snag exceptional women (0-30 units). Beyond that, yes, danger does lurk in East and SE Asia. However, drinking is better than smoking opium… :-)

        • Linette

          exceptional women (0-30 units)…….

          Are you saying women who are over 30 units are no longer exceptional? I am 28 now, so in another 2 years I will have to close shop and take myself off the market and put up a sign saying “Live a life of celibacy” hahaha….lol…

          I tell you there are so many professional women around me over 30 yr old living in cities and they are still very exceptional. There are so many women over 40s and still very exceptional and single. They just choose not to get marry or have kids. It a trend in all the major cities.
          Hey…there is always legal gay marriages you can use to write off income tax and adopt kids.

          • Everything is public and un-erasable on chinaSMACK. My GF and I are 40+. It is very true that the quality of sexual intercourse improves once a woman is in the “zone” (38 to menopause). I will get many trolls and misfortunates who will accuse me of drivel, but I stand by Tantric and yummy older woman sex. VERY TRUE WHAT YOU SAID IN ABOVE COMMENT MY DEAR. Thank-you.

          • Linette

            I read, you said you two still do it like 16 yr old. hehehe…..

            I wish you two lots of hapiness. :)

          • Is more of a case of Caucasian built like Usain Bolt making love to delightful woman who is definitely under 50kg. I allow her to beat and slap me when she orgasms. I enjoy this. No kinky stuff; just sheer sexual energy.

          • linette

            hahaha…bolt is very tall like 6ft5. You’re that tall? Your girlfriend is tall? I am only 5ft2in. If my boyfriend is 6ft5 I will have to use a ladder. lol I’ve dated men 6ft2in and 6ft1. I always have to wear 4 inches heels around them. :(
            I will never wear flip flops around them.

          • I’m 29, so my range can extend quite a bit in both directions as far as women’s ages go. It’s nice, but I tend to go for those around my age or a bit older. I, too, am a fan of the forbidden fruit that is older women.

            I’m 6’1″, but not built like Usain Bolt.

            But, no, I didn’t wake up to any strange women, or normal ones, and thanks to staying up to chug bottles of water, I feel relatively fine this morning. I have a mountain in the clouds to go photograph this weekend, starting with a too-early-for-Saturday train ride starting in an hour.

          • Go for it dude… Your photos are really good. You’ve captured the essence of forestry in Asia of a less tropical kind (i.e. thank heavens not equatorial jungle which is B-O-R-I-N-G).

          • Nanny Hiccups

            men don’t want women, they want girls, who are easy to manipulate. what’s funny is that most of the guys who demand a woman is under thirty are old, fat and bald themselves. Or even more unfortunate, young, but fat ugly and bald. the pickier the man, the less likely it is that he has ever had sex with a real woman lol

          • linette

            Nanny Hiccups….that just sounds depressing. How can I compete with the 18 yr old?

          • eattot

            because this type of women they have high expectaions.but men they want are not interested in them much,men always want young and pretty girls let alone those have better situations.
            so if i had a daughter,i will let her begin date early,not as me any more.i will dress her pretty and sexy,no need to read so much,if she is over average then a simple job is enough for her to find a rich husband,if below average then better save that college money so that she can run some small business or buy an apt early.if just average,then make her understand early,do not make princess dream,try to get a guy in school early.
            but most guys i met are younger than me.i like young guys’ pure and clean body,i guess men and women are the same.

          • Hi Linette… You can compete easily. Chinese girlfriends around 20 years old have a fragrance which is a bit too clean, a bit too new, and suited to only certain men. Chinese girlfriends over 40 are actually quite desirable. (NB: However, do avoid black widows like Gu Kailai.)

          • linette

            eattot
            The 30 40 yr old women who are single because they have high expectation? What is your definition of high expectation? I think a lot of these women they just want someone equal in terms of level of educations and social status. They are not looking for millionaires. You see all these professional women in wall street. Doctors, lawyers, and entrepreneurs. They have high income and high degree. Chances are when a woman like that marry to man with less financial ability she will have to financially support him and provide for him and the kids. She will be the breadwinner in her family. She can’t really stay home much to be a mom. Her husband will be Mr.mom. This is really where the problem lies. These women still have problem accepting role reversal in marriages, not because they have cinderella dream waiting for prince charming.

            In the major cities, you will see a lot more women than men with high degree. Not enough of these men to go around. :(

          • Linette, I think you gotta get out onto dating websites or into nightclubs. Never have I heard of HK female diaspora in the US or EU be short of humorous, athletic, interesting and rich Caucasian or Afro-Caribbean or Asian suitors. HK females with your standard of English vernacular are normally PRIZED CATCHES for certainly Caucasians.

          • eattot

            linette:
            because they never learn a lesson named men.
            i do not want my daughter study so hard into a geek,between geek and slut,i’d prefer slut.live alone is a very sad thing,no matter rich or poor.
            those sluty girls normally marry richer men and get married early.
            your an asian girl in usa,u can get a lot of dates, try more,find a rich man is not difficult since ur in the biggest and richest state.if i had that chance when i was young,i’d not waste my time.

          • As many expats will attest, a PRC Chinese woman may be a WORK IN PROGRESS with flaky English no matter how beautiful. As a humorous HK Chinese you are the FINISHED PRODUCT. Your chosen boyfriend can talk erotically with you using a full and vibrant vocabulary. (Mr. Wiener, I will stop right here.)

          • Nanny Hiccups

            i don’t know eattot. girls normally do the opposite of what parents want. i told my daughter that being beautiful is like being rich, the world will throw itself at your feet. which is true. but she tries to do all of these boy-ish things to herself, refuses to wear skirts or dresses, colors her hair blue. It’s so obnoxious. but one thing is that, she will be rich on her own because she is very smart in school. she has decided that she wants to be a teacher. i have tried to convince her that because she is tall and has beautiful teeth, and of course looking like me doesn’t hurt her either, that she could model to have extra money in addition to school but she refuses that too. it’s really annoying.

            despite this, it’s good for girls to be smart because they won’t need a rich man, they’ll attain their own wealth and then they choose any man they want.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            …not that being a teacher means you’ll be rich. i don’t think she’ll want to be a teacher later, is what i mean. she’ll probably do something else.

          • eattot

            nanny:
            i know being smart and indepent is important.
            but i do not want my girl be so indepent in a men’s world.i do not want a kingkong girl.you buy a skirt and man buys u a skirt,it’s totally different,right?
            anyway,always most men need a wife and kids,right?that’s kinda smart too.i like men buy me gifts invite me dinner,yes,i’m just this type of women.in fact,most women who say women need to be indepent too just because no chance to find a man who let her be a housewife.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            eattot, there is some truth to what you say i suppose. men don’t want independent women. my friend once told me that guys are afraid to approach me because I don’t need them. They have to feel wanted and needed. I’m like,l hell I may not need them for money but I sure do need them to talk to me on my pillow. lol

          • linette

            WORK IN PROGRESS…..FINISHED PRODUCT

            hahaha…richard you are so funny. :)

            I am not in a hurry to settle down. :)
            Right now life is pretty good for me. In weekends I have many girlfriends to hang out with. It’s fun. We always get in happy hours in club without waiting on line. :)
            It’s nice to hang out with girlfriends. Shopping and talking about hot guys in movies like little fan girls. hahaa..
            In the big cities, it’s a different lifestyle. I guess like the tv show sex in the city. hehehe…I grew up in HK and USA. I am so used to it. I don’t know what to do if I live some place else.

            The only other way to live would be me marrying an EXTREMELY rich man who has helicopter and fly me out paris and london every weekend for lunch. I think I will enjoy that too. That would be something I’ve never tried. hahaha…

          • linette

            eattot
            You live in Shanghai, like Hong kong, there are many “left over” professional women too. These women choose not to marry. I am sure you see them everywhere in Shanghai. It is a wide trend.

          • linette

            Nanny Hiccups
            I remember you told me you like to watch sex in the city. Maybe you should come hang out with me and the girls. lol.
            But without the casual sex of course. We are not sluts. lol…

          • Linette… (a) Millionaire = nice car. (b) Multi-millionaire = helicopter. (c) Billionaire = private jet. Hopefully you now see why many postings ago I recommended option (b). After all, if you chase (c), Rupert Murdoch is married, Eduardo Saverin is a playboy, and John Travolta is partially gay… Haha – hope you like this…

          • Linette, re: Casual Sex… I believe one Caucasian was a big fan of this at one stage… Mr. Chinabounder. I wonder whether he has finally found a long-term Oriental GF? Haha.

          • eattot

            linette:
            do you like someone on this site so that u have to say it like this?
            we watch sex and the city,not the city or friends,right?without sex,you like to watch it?men and women connected by sex,i do not believe love without sex,i do not see any wrong that a single lady takes casual sex,girls i know all do this.
            and i like sex,some times i feel like dying because no sex…

          • eatot my dear… Try being a man. We have alarms, triggers and problems when we have not ejaculated for a while… HOWEVER… holding off from sex does create a longer, broader and stronger erection… WHICH CAN BE VERY GOOD FOR A LONG-TERM FEMALE SEXUAL PARTNER…

          • linette

            eattot
            Do not teach your daughter to rely on men in life. She needs to be self sufficient and be independent financially. Once she acquire that she will really live and enjoy her life. She will never want to go back. She can still go marry a man who’s financially capable on his own. That would be so excellent. She doesn’t need to be rich. Just be comfortable should be enough. :)

          • linette

            eattot

            No no no…I like reading all the complaints from expats about China on this site. I find it so amusing and so funny. I laugh so hard. I didn’t know how much anger the expats have about life in China. I always thought China Chinese should have the most complaints, not the expats. Now I know.
            I don’t come to this site to get hook up. hahah.

            Of course I like sex. Who doesn’t? I am normal. If I find a good boyfriend I guarantee I will fxck him everyday in every positions and in all different lingerie.That would be fun..hehehe.. But one night stand is not good. What about STDs? Be careful.

          • Linette, lovely response. Long-term relationships are an excellent opportunity to play out everything which can be seen in Californian pornography starring say Peter North or Tommy Gunn – APART FROM anal sex (I am not a fan of anal sex). P.S. I learned about Peter North and Tommy Gunn from a Louis Theroux BBC documentary, and not by surfing porn on the interweb.

          • linette

            Multi-millionaire = helicopter….

            I love how you put them in category. I am no supermodel so no helicopter for me.
            Many eligible men don’t get marry neither. I don’t know why.This society is so crazy. :(

          • You sound as if you need one faithful and kind boyfriend to hug, squeeze, grip, explore and pamper you. Use all your five senses, and if the pheromones and saliva of a man are just right, he is a keeper. This is after you’ve become comfortable with acceptable looks and a genuinely flirtatious flow of humorous words. May I wish you all the best (although I suspect you already have a BF with whom you are happy).

          • Nanny Hiccups

            Linette, I agree about one night stands or flings. Women today, quite honestly are stupid bitches. men can now have as much sex as they want with none of the responsibilities and we consider this empowerment. Yes, we can stand on our own two feet but it’s all a win-win for men. They don’t have to commit, can change women every night, if a woman by some mistake becomes pregnant, she is more than willing to raise the child on her own. It’s like she is handing him the world on a silver platter, whereas women desire commitment and have no guarantees that they will get any.

            For me a good man is one who is willing to take his time and wait for me. I’m going to make it worth his while if he does haha

          • N.H. Many expats ARE loving and faithful. The “Chinabounder” lifestyle happens; but most guys focus on a steady GF after a year or two in East or SE Asia. Unwanted pregnancies are rare in the expatriate dating and mating scene. Others may have different opinions – would love to hear…

          • “Your photos are really good. ”
            Thanks! I’m glad you liked them.

            And Nanny, it seems like you’re meeting your menfolk in the wrong places.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            whiskers, everyone here knows i don’t meet men in the wrong places because i generally refuse them all. i have been abstinate since the late 1990s. i do hang out and go on dates, i flirt btu that’s it.

            i already have been married and divorced. my kids are almost adults, my youngest in four years. there is nothing left for me to do really. but have fun. but ugh, it has to be the right man. most men are a turnoff to me on a mental level. especially if they act horney.

          • Nanny Hiccups, In Asia, where Asian married men on the whole have the “option” to become “playboys” once their wife reaches menopause, many do, and if their wife knows about this, that wife may never make love to them ever again. Many expats will agree with me, that something exotic like a Caucasian or Afro-Caribbean man, turning erotic thoughts into effective flirting in the face of a pre-menopausal Asian woman experiencing a re-ignited flame inside themselves, can be exhilarating for both parties. May I just say that you are treating “erotic expats” as belonging to the same bracket as a “horny West Virginian in-bred”. There needs to be a distinction, lady!:-)

          • Nanny Hiccups

            ugh@RichNorth i don’t care what those men are doing with the sex lives or their wives.
            i always thought a man who is too anxious for sex is a turnoff.
            lol

          • As per your Hovercard you need some genuine love quite quickly in order to stave off the “ugh-ness” about men. It is important to note – and many expats will agree with me – that Chinese women in particular will think “Sex, Love, and Maybe More” in developed TW / HK / SG, without the need to be too promiscuous. Most Asian women – disregarding prostitutes, escorts and slappers – will keep their total tally of men in single digits. I respect your views – they are honest. All the best…Richard.

          • “whiskers, everyone here knows i don’t meet men in the wrong places because i generally refuse them all.”

            Your response makes more sense. Lose the grudge and you might find that most guys aren’t only after young, mindless girls. I can tell you this with confidence because I am a guy that is not after young, mindless girls and I know several more. If you try to date stereotypical rich ol’ popular Biff McDouche, then yeah you’re going to have the issue you spoke of. But condemning all men because of your experience? That’s kind of dumb and no guy wants to be with a girl who thinks all men are these assholes you described us as.

        • Very sweet… Usain Bolt was figure of speech… Honesty required – I am 6′ 1 ” (you must have been in US for some time to be using Imperial rather than Metric measurements for height). Normally Asian women use centimetres.

          • Dr SUN

            That’s pretty sad Nanny,

            but explains your sexual frustrations very well.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            it’s not sad. being female i have the option of sex whenever i want. the matter is being with who i want, and i cannot find a man that makes me feel that way. they are all the same, equally unattractive to me. i don’t mean physically, because there are so many cute guys out there, but i find i am easy to turn off, especially if they make a mistake or say the wrong thing.

          • S-H-I-T-T-Y S-T-I-C-K-S

          • linette

            …………….That’s pretty sad Nanny,
            but explains your sexual frustrations very well………….

            It’s not hard for a woman to find sexual partner. Women in general don’t have sexual frustrations whether in 30 or 40 or 50 yr old. It’s very easy. There is no such thing she is angry because she can’t get a good fxck. I can walk into a bar and make eye contact plus a smile and I will have a partner to take home. But is it safe? There are so many people with STDs and HIv you don’t know. I will suggest for all women not to have any sexual relationship with any men unless you are sure he is a potential spouse. Or otherwise just be abstinent.

          • Linette, most of what you are saying is silly. Turn scientific for a second. Many expats here in SG are like me and have well-man checks every year which include the HSGC (HIV, syphilis, gonorrhoea, chlamydia) component. You seem to be referring to the HERPES, which is overblown because it is defeated naturally the older you are. Please simply inspect well the penis of whomever you may wish to make love to. If the penis looks like it’s healthy, I highly doubt herpes is an issue. Viral shedding generally requires welts.

          • linette

            richardnorth
            A person can still transmit the herpes virus to another person even though symptom free. The virus can lay in a dormant for years. It’s good to get check up if sexually active with multiple partners. Doesn’t hurt.

  • crimsonarmor

    You want a history lesson?

    What about the Tienanmen square massacre

    Wheres this history in the Chinese history books? erased? deleted?

    Some Chinese always want to play the victim card, which is a sign of weakness, blaming everyone but not looking at the wonderful 5000 years history.

    Oh and let’s look at that history? who’s idea was it people is power? or did they forget so many people means so many mouths to feed, people starving and dying? famine? is that why today some people in china eat cats dogs mice, scorpions cockroaches?

    Of course many things happened but that does not mean blame should be placed on others. People need to look at themselves before they say it was them.

    • Dr SUN

      The 3 “T’s” are something expats in China cannot ever talk / teach about , it would be anti- harmoniousness.

      Anti- harmony = deportation for foreigners , re-education camps for netizen.

      • Dr SUN Now I understand why the ex-lover of Gu Kailai (the French guy) testifying currently, is quite happy living in Cambodia / Laos. Cheers dude.

  • Efe the foreigner

    BRIC country (Brazil, Russia, India, China)
    SICK country (Syria, Iran, China, Korea N.)

    any recent use of the phrase ” China is a SICK country” is usually a reference to its current strategic alliances (economic and military) in. as for historical use of the phrase, well, i am no historian…..

    maybe they are using google translate, um… (*cough*), i mean baidu translate too much

  • Freak on a Mountain

    ‘Sick Man of Asia’ was intended as a political label, not to describe physiology. Turkey was the ‘Sick Man of Europe.’ It’s a term used to describe a society in rather severe cultural and intellectual decline, much like Lu Xun’s ‘Man in an Iron Box.’

    Athletic prowess, while glorious, cannot really gain China much prestige. Only intellectual achievement can prove a culture’s worth. Why does Western society still heap praise on the ancient Greeks? Not because they played the Olympic Games, but because they contributed so much to the history of human thought. Read Bertrand Russell. It will open your eyes.

    China needs more philosophers, not athletes.

  • Arthur Schopenhauer

    @ Nanny Hiccups
    “For me a good man is one who is willing to take his time and wait for me. I’m going to make it worth his while if he does haha”

    You wait until your a bit older and the famous visual decline started, after that no one will wait for u again, and you will have to behave in order to get attention.

  • Jose

    The Sick Man of Europe was the Ottoman Empire before it finally collapsed after WWI, and the Sick Man of Asia was probably China during the final years of empire what with all the unequal treaties. Today, though, the Sick Man of Asia has to be Japan… http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/04/02/the_sick_man_of_asia

  • Davd C.

    Yeah this is a phrase that many Chinese know about. However, I always thought it only refers to the weakness of the Chinese state at the time. But apparently, many Chinese relate it to the overall health of the Chinese people. Anyway, much of modern China’s problems stem from the country’s inability to deal with foreign powers effectively, certainly from the Opium War onward. Cultural clashes definitely played a role in all of that, but there were other reasons as well. It is no wonder then many Chinese attacked their own country men for their weakness, and still do. It would be interesting to see whether this phrase still has potency 50 years from now on, that is, if China continues to maintain her development.

  • manusan

    now, china’s shooting with US tresory bounds.

  • Chinese are still kinds of sick, no? Hack hack, spew!

    “My baby needs to piss. Well the center of the subway car should be a good place…”

    “OK Children. Everyone line up and punch this little girl 10 times each. Good. Good children. Make sure she feels it!”

    “What’s that there? Oh, just a little girl who was run over by a truck. I’ll just pretend I didn’t see here” whistles while walking…

    “I know darling. Lets wear matching T-Shirts! Damn, we look sick!”

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