Why Foreigners and Chinese Themselves Are Leaving China

Inside a Beijing immigration consulting company.

From NetEase & iFeng:

American Media: Foreigners Gradually Leaving China Due to Social Changes

United States’ New York Times Chinese Online Edition article, original title: Why do they want to leave China?

Not long ago, an Englishman who has lived in China for a long time, married a Chinese wife, and has had a very successful business in China named Mark Kitto published on English-language media an article titled “You’ll never be Chinese — Why I’m leaving the country I loved“. He says in his text that after having studied, worked, and lived nearly over 10 years, China’s changes have made him ultimately decide to leave China taking his entire family. There is more than just one Westerner like him who loves China yet wants to leave.

Mark Kitto with wife and children in Moganshan.

Mark Kitto with wife and children.

Not only “forever unable to become Chinese” laowai have begun to consider leaving China, even Chinese people themselves are one after another beginning to emigrate overseas. According to Hurun‘s 2011 survey of the multimillionaires in 18 Chinese cities, 14% of the rich have already emigrated or are currently in the process, while 46% of the rich are currently considering emigrating abroad. Although it is unknown whether or not this data is accurate, at least it reveals a trend, a phenomenon that cannot be ignored.

30 years of economic reforms have benefited many people, with overall national living standards being much higher than 30 years ago. At the same time, the original model and system of putting the country’s modernization and development first is increasingly facing questions and challenges from various levels [or demographics of society] and interest groups. Every level has its own dissatisfaction, all believing the government does not take care of them enough, their discontents increasing. This isn’t just the grassroots [lower class] or the urban middle class, even vested interest groups and the rich are losing confidence in the current social contract. For the former, the injustice and unfairness in front of their eyes is the biggest dissatisfaction, while their method of expressing their discontent is to individually or cooperatively petition and protest. For the latter, their biggest concern is by and large the unpredictability and uncertainty of the future, while one of their ways of expressing their lack of confidence is to vote with their feet — “running away [emigrating abroad]“.

This uncertainty lies in the prevalence of unwritten rules in Chinese society, while the former rules are often twisted. The arbitrary administration of government departments is also very prevalent. With 30 years of reforms have also seen many rounds of government administrative reforms, but the people still do not have confidence or trust in the government. Mark Kitto lives in seclusion in Moganshan, engaged in the business of cafes and hostels as well as managing a top-selling magazine at the same time. He says every 3 years when he needs to renew his business permits/leases, he has to worry, not knowing when the local government will refuse to renew his licenses. For a businessman, this kind of money-wasting, time-wasting, energy-wasting, even unstable business operating and investment environment is what gives him a headache [troubles him].

What makes people unhappy and even “leave” also includes the rapidly economically developing social environment. Over 30 years of development, Chinese people’s material standard of living has greatly risen. But simultaneously one of the consequences it has brought is a money-centric “materialism”. This is a pervasively materialistic society. This high-speed development has environmental destruction and substandard quality as its costs. Materially-rich, spiritually-poor, lacking in ethics and values.

When researching why Chinese people want to emigrate overseas, one thing that is often brought up is education for their children. This is very much related to China’s education system. In China, educational opportunities remain less than abundance and even lacking, and many children owing to economic and institutional reasons are unable to get an education. The quality and educational methods of schools also cause many parents concerned with their children’s educational prospects. Kitto criticized China’s primary and middle school education as not learning knowledge but rather learning how to take tests. Although this is a little exaggerated, there’s also a lot of truth in it. Although higher education has gone through over a decade of expansion, [high school graduating] exam takers still have to exhaust themselves preparing for the gaokao college entrance examinations in order to get into college. The quality of university education too has not risen along with the growth in the number of college students. This too is why many people would rather spend large sums of money to send their children abroad for their children’s education.

Moreover, environmental pollution, food safety and quality, traffic, and other things that impact quality of life also cause many Chinese people and foreigners living in China to want to leave.

Comments from NetEase:

网易美国手机网友:

Let’s do a survey, those who want to emigrate/immigrate, ding [this comment].

[Note: At time of translation, this comment had 49,305 upvotes, making it the most highly voted netizen comment on the article.]

candtrae [网易加拿大网友]:

For my child’s future, so my entire family can have a better life, I’ve luckily already immigrated to the beautiful Maple Leaf country. Here life isn’t so filled with anxiety, vexation, annoyance, pain, nor do you have to worry about not being able to afford medical care, schooling, or retirement. May everyone have the opportunity to come here. You will discover a different world.

网易河南省郑州市手机网友: (responding to above)

Are you in the Maple Leaf country washing dishes for retirement? Or sweeping the streets? Do you know English? Have you passed the 4th Level [of English proficiency test]?

网易陕西省手机网友: (responding to above)

This… above, do you dare not be so embarrassing?

敏感的国 [网易四川省绵阳市网友]:

Openly asserting that the United States affects world safety, that Western hostile forces are continuously trying to subjugate our country, while secretly their relatives and assets have already been moved over there.
A wonder of China, a wonder of the world!

骑马o过海 [网易广东省广州市网友]:

The poor get poorer, the rich get richer, the corrupt become even more corrupt, society is unjust, materialism overflows, harboring ulterior motives, the more developed, the more angry everyone is, those below unable to live in peace and work happily, those above unable to see a way out of the predicaments, so leaving is the best choice.

网易美国网友:

To get to the point, the government is arbitrary! Think, why is business becoming harder and harder to do? Having to get renew certifications or business licenses every 3 years, various kinds of “eating, taking, obstructing, demanding” [referring to people with power working for themselves and their own interests rather than truly serving the people], where failure to pay the right respects [to those with power] means your so-called right to legally operate a business is lost. Whereas those who know people or have connections, regardless of whether or not their qualifications are up to standard, regardless of the hidden dangers, can all get the right to legally operate to compete with those honest and lawful companies. With this, how can malignant competition possibly be avoided?

网易四川省内江市网友:

Those with the means to leave and those who have embezzled/cheated enough have all TM left. Those who are left are all the miserable cunts. If I TM could go, I’d also go, but I simply can’t. MD.

我用脚投票 [网易加拿大网友]:

My friends who several years ago went back to be sea-turtle returnees [ethnic Chinese who grew up abroad or went abroad to study that have decided to return to their ancestral home country], are you guys still okay?

緈鍢冭遙逺 [网易山东省青岛市手机网友]:

If I had money, I’d also emigrate.

What do you think? What is the effect of foreigners and Chinese leaving China? What is the effect of Chinese immigrating to other countries?

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • Rick in China

    Interesting analysis.. I’d agree with many points.

    I have thought of leaving after more than 9 years, but haven’t yet. It’s on the cusp – maybe China/Chinasmack would be better off ;)

    • Snicker

      Gosh…8 years for me, Rick…cuspy as well…

    • The Enlightened One

      I have been here 6 years. I am leaving next year, without a second thought.

      I love various aspects of China but I can’t accept the fact that I will never be accepted and always treated as an outsider.

      It doesn’t matter how fluent your Chinese is, if you are married to a Chinese national… you will always be someone who isn’t accepted by society or the government.

      I can’t waste anymore time deluding myself. China is not a good place to settle in some roots.

      • wallimo

        I moved to China in 2008, so and I left at the start of August, it’s just not worth it anymore. People are getting more and more hostile and I don’t wanna be there when the shit hits the fan!

        • Cooljackal

          You know what’s funny? I have a British friend who has been in China for a while. He is an actual teacher from back in England and I remember him telling me that WHEN the shit hits the fan, he wants to be on the ground running around and taking pictures. It’s not even a question of IF anymore to some people.

          • Alain

            an actual teacher

            As opposed to a FACTUAL teacher. Not sure what you mean here just saying, and nothing personal, just like stirring the pot.

            No, most of the teachers I met in China would not even be qualified to clean the bogs in a school back in the UK or USA, not really sure many do teach in China. The two I knew with PGCE’s one is now in England, and the other manages a British School in Peru. Folks with PGCE’s owe it to the taxpayer to teach in the UK or for a British school, and they should leave oral english to those with degrees only in China, as simple as that really.

          • Cooljackal

            Alain:

            I’m sure you’re just being a douche (nothing personal) since you already know what I meant by actual teacher but I’ll say it anyways. What I meant by actual teacher is that they are a credentialed teacher from the UK. A lot of the universities seem to hire people with a regular bachelors or masters without any emphasis on teaching English or teaching.

            I don’t know anything about the UK educational system. I’m assuming based on your comment that taxpayer money is used when people get accepted into the PGCE program without putting up much or any of their own money? If so, in your opinion how long should a person only teach in the UK or a British school? 1 year? 5 years? for life? I’m just curious about how much a person would “owe” the taxpayers.

          • Alain

            What I meant by actual teacher is that they are a credentialed teacher from the UK. A lot of the universities seem to hire people with a regular bachelors or masters without any emphasis on teaching English or teaching.

            A little pressed for time, but I’ll reply with this as best I can.

            None of those, most of my mates teaching English in China I knew, I was the only one with a BA in English, so I was either mixing in murky circles, or all foreigners don’t have degrees, so you tell me? I am pretty sure there ARE some foreigners who do have degrees, hell, even Master Degrees, in China, but they are just in the minority, note I mentioned SOME foreigners.

            Out of 10 foreign mates I met actually in Guangdong, I was the only one with a bona fide degree, and no, a reeled off copy of some clueless naive backpacker who lost his original on khao san road doesn’t count as a real degree, despite the chinese accepting anything with a red stamp on it as genuine.

            Ask and look around, you may be well shocked/surprised at what you find, dependant on your susceptibilities.

            Cheers and beers
            Alain

          • Cooljackal

            My original comment was meant to be a simple reply to the “shit hitting the fan” conclusion of the parent comment. I am not sure why you went on a tangent using two words from my comment, which was only a fact that isn’t a critical piece of the larger meaning of my post.

            So, to answer your questions:

            1) I agree that there are tons of “English teachers” here that don’t have teaching credentials. That includes BA, MS, No degree. Seems like low quality private universities that have cash to burn have no problems hiring them.

            2) However, I do believe that there are a lot of qualified teachers (you might be right about you hanging in murky circles). There are different levels of universities in China and I am pretty sure the upper level universities do at least SOME type of qualifications check (i.e TsingHua in Beijing). That could include teaching certs, PhD’s/MS/BA in teaching or language with those certs. Whether they do it by simply checking a CV and skyping to see a person’s face, it doesn’t matter because that doesn’t mean the person DOESN’T have those qualifications.

            When I look around, I am shocked and surprised to see a lot of things. My surprise and shock decreases the longer I stay here but I still try to stay observant and understand that my observations alone don’t necessarily expand to the entire mainland.

            I think it may be fruitful for you to try and follow your own advice when it comes to looking and asking (and sometimes staying quiet and listening/reading). Maybe that will allow you to find some friends that aren’t so murky.

            Cheers

          • tai wai

            None of those, most of my mates teaching English in China I knew, I was the only one with a BA in English, so I was either mixing in murky circles, or all foreigners don’t have degrees, so you tell me?

            You don’t need ANY degree to speak English, and that’s pretty much the only “teaching” requirement for most schools.

            The only reason schools want someone with a bachelors degree at all (any degree) is that it is less of a hassle to get the foreign expert visa for you.

            Heck, with an English degree, you’re probably equipped to RUN a English training school.

          • Xiongmao

            Don’t worry. You don’t need to defend your ‘real’ teacher talk to the meat heads. As someone who holds EU teaching credentials (4 years) working in China I can definitely understand the distinction. I’ve lived and worked in China for the past 5 years and only ONCE did I meet a fellow accredited teacher. I’m not saying there aren’t great English teachers out there molded in experience but many are not needless to say. If I took a job in, say, advertising I wouldn’t think I was qualified off the bat.

      • Alain

        Give this man a cee-gar!

        He truly is englightened and sees things as they truly are.

        That said, doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it. I miss slugging back some 2 rmb beers and munching on some yang rou on a stick while eyeing up all the eye candy. No, China is ideal for an intelligent, good looking, young fellow like yourself. Nothing for you back in a bankrupt EU or USA, better to keep right where you are….open an English school, do anything, just don’t return back to the West!

        • The Enlightened One

          Not sure how to interpret this, but I agree the cheap beer and lamb on a stick is great. And I will be coming back to China once a year to visit but living here is no longer an option. I have certainly enjoyed aspects of China, that is without a doubt, but I am only simply wanted here as a guest. And a guest is what I shall be in the future.

          Already have a job lined up, and in actuality it doesn’t matter since I own an online business and can run it from anywhere. Not worried about that. Resourceful people never have to worry.

          • Alain

            Not sure how to interpret this,

            No harm nor foul intended. Was just offering my two cents, no need to worry thyself…

            but I agree the cheap beer and lamb on a stick is great.

            Indeed. 2 of the great things.

            Already have a job lined up, and in actuality it doesn’t matter since I own an online business and can run it from anywhere. Not worried about that. Resourceful people never have to worry.

            But what if one is not resourceful, what then? No, China, the east, is stil a good place for those who want to wallow in a slothful existence and earn an easy 5,500 rmb a month with a free flat. Far better that than say being an unemployed toilet cleaner in Wandsworth, each to his own I say lad!

          • The Enlightened One

            I agree. It certainly does seem like a free ride to just speak your own language.

            You can’t knock anyone for taking advantage of it.

      • Alexander

        Yes, that is very true. You make some excellent points. It also has to do with Chinese immigration policies vs. Western immigration policies. For example, foreigners have to continue to renew their visas every 1 to 2 years, even if married to a Chinese. While, Chinese can get permanent residency in a foreign country if married to foreign spouse and only need to renew every ten years, but can get citizenship if desired after 5 years…

        • moonmickey

          Its not that easy now if you are British, you need to be already earning over 25,000 pounds a year or have savings of 62,000 and its really hard to get a spouse visa. Its outrageous.

          • http://amazon.com/author/rc richardnorth

            moonmickey The other problem is that unless your wife is like Mark Kitto’s (2+ kids, rightly obsessed about their learning), there are many temptations for the East Asian wife to stray in N America and Europe.

            I know of multiple divorces in Switzerland (for instance) where multi-millionaires have poached Asian wives. Sometimes these men are too lazy to go to Asia and find one themselves.

      • Wenqing

        Totally agree.

        I was born and raised in China for 9 years but my mother hated it there and left for America when I was 5. I joined her later on despite the destruction of our family. I can honestly say that China is not a good place to be anymore and I’m very glad to be in the US despite the faults of this country as well.

        I remember not being able to drink milk at all while growing up in China. The moment I swallow milk, I would throw it up on reflex. I thought I was lactose intolerant until I came to the US and magically, milk is drinkable again! And don’t get me started on the amount of corruption in the school system (want good grades? give the teach a watch). What bothered me the most was the horrid state of the environment. The city air is absolutely suffocating. Like a thick smoke chocking you 24/7. People’s morals were very low with thieves and murders (especially stepmothers killing the poor stepchild) everywhere. Not surprisingly, I found out my own stepmom wanted me dead the last time I visited China. With food, air, and people like that, there’s nothing that makes me want to return to the land of my birth and I find this incredibly sad.

      • Alkirk

        YOu are 100% right

      • http://bookerzmedia.com justice
    • kodi

      Hmmmm……. I now understand why China has not been cracked yet. I am becoming increasingly frustrated here and will probably leave very soon. Just trying to hang in there you know. I am just curious about what will happen when the shit hits the fan! Shit hits the fan every day in China! There are well over 100,000 separate incidents of mass uprising every year containing more than 1,000 participants and those are just the ones with more than 1,000 people! 100,000!!!!!! 100,000x 1,000 assuming that all those incidents have no participants in common that’s roughly 100,000,000 pissed off people give or take 10,000,000! Scary much?

      • moonmickey

        We know that, its frightening and those that think they’ll somehow be treated special when the majority of foreigners have left, have got another thing coming because the racism will be even more focused and visa crackdowns more intense. The country is going into a very dangerous recession and of course they are blaming everyone and anyone else.

        • donscarletti

          30 years later the foreigners who come back will be treated specially. Just like the foreign friends of the current regime were treated more specially than the countless foreigners in Shanghai, Qingdao, Tianjin etc. were before the revolution.

          Time is surprisingly cyclical. The future is a familiar friend who can be counted on to return, even if he is not completely forgiven.

      • http://bookerzmedia.com justice

        I thought you will love to know about this.
        Australian Company Refuses to Give Asians Jobs.
        http://bookerzmedia.com/australian-company-refuses-asians-jobs/

        3,What Will China Do Next With Japan On Diaoyu Islands?
        http://bookerzmedia.com/what-will-china-do-next-with-japan-on-diaoyu-islands/

        4, American Kids Singing In Chinese ( What Is Behind The Increasing Popularity
        Of The Chinese Language?)
        http://bookerzmedia.com/what-will-china-do-next-with-japan-on-diaoyu-islands/

        5, Will Communism Survive? (Why The West Hates Communism.)
        http://bookerzmedia.com/why-the-west-hates-communism/

  • leon

    Sofa, so good. First!

    • leon

      crap, not first. slow internet

      • Tengu

        No one ever remembers the guy who won the Silver Medal!!!!

        • Brett Hunan

          Except for the 1986 world series… at least in New England (aren’t you from New England?)

          • The Acidic Hasidic

            Bill Buckner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            also go mets.

        • XiaoHei

          They do if the Gold Medal guy was caught doping!

          • opinionator

            who won all the Tour De France during Lance Armstrongs’ time? Anybody know?
            s’pose i could always google it.

        • TAKE5

          Tengu–No one ever remembers the guy who won the Silver Medal!!!!

          I dont get into the sofa stuff much but that is funny…hahaha

  • http://marlinspikenestor8435.wordpress.com/ Tom

    Well here is one man who decided to leave China with £20 million of China’s public money!! – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/9507000/Chinese-official-flees-country-with-20m-public-money.html

    • Cooljackal

      You should check out Fremont, California. There are so many former Chinese government employees settled there that the Citibank branch has the logo outside in Chinese right under the English logo (probably to attract their incoming money). I have never seen any bank in a major city in California adorn their main building logo in any other language other than English. I have seen signs and notices, even big posters but never the main building logo.

      • kodi

        In the United States we should commission strike teams to seek out those former officials, strip them of their wealth, and deport them back to China.

        • Cooljackal

          That’s one idea. It would probably be good for the average mainlander to see this happen but these officials technically haven’t done anything wrong in the states. Well, I have heard they are keeping the east bay area homes (mission blvd etc) prices high by buying homes full on cash, but that still isn’t illegal :)

        • Aldo

          You would be amazed at just how many “middle business” Chinese mainlanders who talk very seriously about doing something very “organized” to track down these criminal officials who have made-off with the loot and are now living the life of Riley.
          Many small business people got themselves hosed-out of their life savings by these asshole government wads and ive listened in on much talk being made of tracking them down and “paying their respects” to them. Im predicting that in these rats nests of immigrated officials in places like Cal in the US and Can, as well as other Offical’s dog havens, there will be a spate of professionally organized killings.
          The bitter hatred that business people I know here have towards these official turds and what they have done is HUGE…they want their guts on a plate!!

  • http://www.china-speakers-bureau.com Fons Tuinstra

    For next week we have planned the first China Weekly Hangout about this subject. Join us if you are interested.
    http://www.chinaherald.net/2012/08/why-are-foreigners-leaving-china-china.html

  • Jennster

    a well rounded development can only be achieved through time. and for china, it needs several decades for software to catch up to hardware and by then people would have the confidence to stay. :

    and canada is awesome as well as people. :D
    just asians there act retarded online. O_o

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxBATJbOmto starting

      that map says it all Rich chinese love white people. Nobody is rushing to send their kids to study in Japan or south korea!!! :)

      • Jennster

        chinese hate japs or koreans more than whites due to superiority complex to asians.

        • linette

          hahaha…no doubt chinese, japanese, and koreans hate each other. lol. It’s so crazy. Blame their schools teaching nationalism to the kids.

          • Snicker

            Let’s hope Hong Kong resists the efforts of the government to teach nationalism classes!

          • Kukuku

            Only a matter of time. :(

      • C84

        That’s funny that the rich wouldn’t send their children to the other Asian countries, but I can’t say that I blame them. I would want my children (if I had any) to go to a more neutral, multicultural country far away, and experience the world beyond Asia. Somewhere like Latin America or Africa, which don’t post any numbers on the map either, I see.

  • Nanny Hiccups

    For the first time in decades, Chinese immigrants outnumbered hispanics last year and this year. It was in the paper a few months ago.

  • Nanny Hiccups

    For an interracial couple, they look very waspy. The man looks bland as toast. No accounting for taste, I see…

    • don

      Hmm-I thought they were a nice looking couple, with good-looking kids. I’m one of those bland WASPs, and my wife is a generic-looking Korean, but we made a real good-looking son.

      • Nanny Hiccups

        The kids are adorable. The wife is pretty and happy looking. The man is the one who looks out of place in his large paul bunyon boots. It’s a good picture, just bland. Particularly the guy. He looks like a cornball. Kind of goofy.

        • Kukuku

          Well that Goofy-looking guy had his own paper in China for a while and became a millionaire before it was taken from him by the government. He then opened an inn somewhere else and was successful again.

        • mr. wiener

          People in glass houses Nanny…

        • El Puma R.

          Nanny

          is it about the picture or about them? Gotta draw a line there. Chinese.. hispanic… whatever, I’d rather be a teacher in China than a cashier at a ski resort in Colorado, and all that considering I speak better english than a lot of “native speakers”, added to french, spanish and chinese. But as I’ve been saying since January, this is my last year in China, for the same reasons everyone is talking about, you know, I’ve realized that I’d rather make it at home with the abilities I’ve got instead of polluting myself in China.. don’t get me wrong, I love it here, but it has changed a lot since 2008. I’ve got friends whose chinese level is outstanding and they sill leave because they can’t adapt. Back home I got sick once every 10 years so I only got sick a few times in my life. I came to china in 2008 and I’ve been sick more than 20 times, the first one was a pneumonia that didn’t kill me because I found a decent German doctor who charged me NOTHING for saving my life. And I never experienced food poisoning until I came to China: I got poisoned around 10 times already in the 4 years I’ve been here… And I’m a recluse since January too, I cook at home (even the supermarket food can get you sick) I use my time to study Chinese in order to leave earlier than I thought, and if I get out it’s either to work (my 4 hours per day), or late at night when the air is not so polluted and taking a walk (or longboarding ^^) is a good idea.

          Nanny do you live in China? After 2 years or so, everything won’t seem so surprising anymore, could be even less than that. And every foreigner who lives in china can assure you they’ve met other laowai who can’t stay here for more than a week and leave overwhelmed in a terrible dissapointment. Even chinese people call it “Living in hard mode” (like the videogames; difficulty: Hard). And I think they’re right on that. however they should think about changing the things here before taking their shit somewhere else… ’cause that’s it, they act the same way when they go abroad.

          Nanny I’ve managed to speak their language and master their social protocol and to reproduce their (good) behavior in order to accomplish my basic social needs, but no matter what I do, I will always be the “laowai” and I’ll be always treated that way, therefore I must either go home or find another place -as good as my home- where I can be included as a member of a community.

          My love supply for China is about to run out: I’m Argentinian, white, born from an Italian immigrant family. I’m sociable, I work with them, I smile and they smile back… but it is not funny to hear middle-class chinese people looking straight at me in the bus while they say “I didn’t know the USA had this kind of white people”, on my way to meet some government douchebag who will later tell me there’s no gay, no disabled nor poor people in china and he will think I believe him, as if I was the fucking negligent narcissist selfish moron he is… Yeah… I nod silently, let’s ganbei again and change the subject before I stab him in the forehead. I’m really tired of running into the deep contrasts of this country, each and every single day. Social polarization has reached a truly alarming level and seems the only chinese person I know who really wants to see a change is my girlfriend, and what a coincidence! She wants to migrate too because over here no one gives her a chance to learn or to be free, except me.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            El Puma, what drew you to China? I imagine I would have visited by now had I not stumbled across this site. My daughter is begging to go to Japan, and has even priced it through some web site at 7000 USD for her to stay for the summer. But even now, I won’t let her go. Not even with her 21 year old half sister who is also obsessed with visiting Japan. Much less, China.

          • Kukuku

            Ya, NH, would make too much sense letting your daughter experience the world, especially Japan. We all know how dangerous Japan is, right? Or maybe it’s simply because your fat-bellied self never left to go somewhere else and you’re jealous of your daughter’s dreams?

          • El Puma R.

            Nanny

            I don’t agree with kukuku. But I can say I came to china because I wanted to see the other extreme of the world, in this paradigm we live in, the idea of coming to the place where everything is happening at the same time and where in the last 10 years they’ve been trying to catch up the 100 years they were behind the west. It is the right place at the right time, the consequence us the west might be facing soon for being guilty of feeding such place like China. Look what we did to them with our stupid liberal ideas, and look what communism did to them.

            TAKE her to China. Bring her over here and show her what we might become in the future. A polarized society living among the pollution. And Take them to Japan too so you guys can see what means to be Japanese. Talk to them, watch them as they watch you, don’t be afraid. Go to the chinese restaurants, fuck western food. Just after living something is when you can really talk about it.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            One of the reasons I don’t want her to visit Japan is because I hear too much about xenophobia. And wow, I don’t want to visit China not only because of all of the problems people have mentioned here, but that it is lacking the culture i want to experience. Their goal is to be like western societies and well… I can get that experience here in the usa. I was utterly shocked that china was not the exotic cultural paradise I’d seen in movies. I was very attracted to that, so glad I learned the truth as I would have been utterly disappointed.

            I’ve wanted to visit some places for a while but I want to have the same freedoms I have here in America. Idon’t want to go someplace that feels scary or xenophobic, where I will feel unwelcome. The last place on the list is Italy, and I really want to see the vatican so that would be nice. Currently researching that now. I only come here to chinasmack because the articles and stories amuse me.

          • Snarl

            NH, if you just visit China for a few days, or a week, and you go on the usual tours, then you’ll get to see the exotic side that you’ve been attracted to. The things people complain about here are things you’ll start picking up on after some time, or if you get off the beaten path.
            Japan, on the other hand, doesn’t share all of the same problems as China, but it does have a xenophobia problem. Or to put it in more common language, they’re some of the most racist people you’ll ever meet.

          • mr. wiener

            Nanny.
            You’ve been hanging around Chinasmack for the last 5 years under various names and the pretext of research. Fine, book work is done, now for the field research. Get off your arse and come and see the real thing.
            I want you to post on CS every week, no matter what the topic, Hell, we’ll make a topic page for you, Tengu will correct you grammar, Brett will frown at people who snicker at your naivety, we’ll draw lots as to who gets to be your bed boy, I don’t bloody care, stop talking about it and DO IT!!!

          • Alain

            Argentinian you say? I think I know which city of China you were living in, from what you are saying, and if it is the city I think it is, then god help you, the people from that city are terrible to a T.

          • El Puma R.

            Changchun, yes. I could bear with china one more year if I moved to a place where people is nicer.

          • Teacher in China

            @El Puma R
            You’re in Changchun? I’m down the (rail)road a few hours in songyuan. The people always did seem pretty rough in Changchun, especially the taxi drivers by the train station – what a shitshow that area is. I love the yang rou chuanr from the muslim guys off Guilin Lu though :)

          • linette

            Nanny, go to China for a vacation. You should do it at least once in your life. Go for 2 weeks. Go to great wall and Forbidden City. I know it’s something I will do at least once before I die.

          • rollin wit 9′s

            I’d like to point out (with a call of duty reference if I may) that I play China on Veteran mode (you will not survive). If you lived here, you know that’s the only difficulty setting!

          • Alain

            Changchun, yes. I could bear with china one more year if I moved to a place where people is nicer.

            I must apologize profusely to you, and hand my head sheepishly in shame. I thought you were someone else who had done business/worked in a city in south-central China.

          • Jennster

            haha i get diarrhoea every 2 days while there. i too get sick from supermarket foods. its actually the chemicals they spray in agriculture for various reasons which makes your stomach upset. however chinese who hav been here are more immune than foreigners. but note the average life expectancy is still incredibly high in large cities.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            @Mr Wiener… surprisingly I have only been coming here since January lol but I guess I’m so annoying every month is like a year. As for the book research, I had not shared this but the book is complete, and I did keep the male hero as Chinese and people can buy it… actually the sneak peek is available but people are still buying it. So I guess it’s a matter of finding it.

          • linette

            Nanny Hiccups, So the leading man in your novel is Asian. Who is his lover? ;)

          • linette

            Nanny
            , So the leading man in your novel is Asian. Who is his lover? ;)

          • El Puma R.

            @Teacher in China

            Yeah those xinjiang guys, they know me already, I pay them a visit once a week or so. Changchun was much more fun when I came in 2008, now people has turned blindly and selfishly stupid. Specially the taxi drivers, or anyone with a car.

            @Alain

            No, I had a taste of Shenzhen and I absolutely refuse to live there. Huge cities are not exactly my cup of tea, specially in China. Right now I’m looking for a job in qinhuangdao, 2 million people, nice weather, 20 minutes from the beach.. close to beijing, and the most surprising thing I saw was… when people drive, they YIELD!!

          • Teacher in China

            @El Puma R
            People are pretty nice here, although the way they’re building and advancing (especially people with cars), they might start turning into big city douches soon too. Lots of work to be had here though if you can stand small town China living. I spent 7 years in Beijing, so for me it’s a nice change of pace, especially the air quality – it’s practically Canada level in its goodness.

          • Mirmidon13

            I feel like I have meet you before. Do you live in Chang Chun?

          • Mirmidon13

            Never mind, I just read the answer few comments down the road. I guess you don’t remember, but I we meet at Annabel’s test few months ago. I am from Venezuela.

        • Northerner

          One of the reasons I don’t want her to visit Japan is because I hear too much about xenophobia.

          Isn’t that xenophobia as well?

          _______________

          And wow, I don’t want to visit China not only because of all of the problems people have mentioned here, but that it is lacking the culture i want to experience.

          Yes I can empathise with you there. I was so disappointed when I first went to Germany and it wasn’t full of Nazis in black uniforms persecuting Jews to Wagnerian overtures. Actually it I was so incensed that I wrote to Chancellor Kohl expressing my massive disappointment that his country did not fulfil my cultural expectations. In short I felt cheated, especially as he didn’t dignify me with a reply.

          _______________

          Their goal is to be like western societies and well… I can get that experience here in the usa.

          Yes, take it from all of us. China is really just like The USA (actually everywhere is) and you won’t find anything different.

          _______________

          I was utterly shocked that china was not the exotic cultural paradise I’d seen in movies. I was very attracted to that, so glad I learned the truth as I would have been utterly disappointed.

          I firmly believe it is better to know the truth about a somewhere than actually forcing yourself to experience the place and be ultimately disappointed. You can extend this to people as well. It makes life much simpler, yet somehow richer.

          _______________

          I’ve wanted to visit some places for a while but I want to have the same freedoms I have here in America.

          This reminds me of the American lady my father met in Lagos airport some years ago who was screaming at the ticket agent, when he asked if she needed help she replied that she’d come to find her roots and had found them and now needed to ‘get out of this fucking country as soon as possible’ or the American (white this time) I stood behind at a ticket office in a small provincial railway station in Italy who suddenly errupted and screamed ‘why does no one in this fucking country speak English!’

          If you ever get a passport Nanny, whatever you do next do not go near an airport, you’ll be much safer that way.

          _______________

          Idon’t want to go someplace that feels scary or xenophobic, where I will feel unwelcome.

          That’s ok because they don’t want you — oh the irony.

          ______________

          The last place on the list is Italy, and I really want to see the vatican so that would be nice. Currently researching that now.

          It’s near Rome if that helps. Which in turn is relatively near Africa, at least from your perspective. There’s not much else to see in Italy to be honest, except pizza oh and Italians of course.

          ______________

          I only come here to chinasmack because the articles and stories amuse me.

          Got over yesterday’s hot topic quickly, didn’t we?

          • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

            Northerner, I don’t think it’s uppity at all for an American traveling in Italy to expect someone selling rail tickets to know some English. It is the common language for all of Europe. It could just as easily a German or a Spaniard having a problem being understood. Are you trying to suggest only Americans misbehave and act arrogant when traveling abroad? Dude was probably a Canadian.

          • Northerner

            Now you mention it I think the ticket clerk was Canadian. Strike out my comments aboot the American getting irate; he had every right.

          • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

            Maybe from Quebec, eh? Oh wait…..that’s French.

          • Northerner

            You mean ‘that’s France’?

            He was very ‘dark’ I should say. And I did hear ‘qui’ and ‘non’ a lot, with lots of scowling and shoulder shrugging gestures. Maybe he was Algonquin or Cree?

            I wonder how he came to work in a railway station in Calabria? That’s not what I expected of Italy. Should have done my interweb research earlier and not wasted my money.

            Christ, do you think there are Iroquois in Piedmont? The last thing the Italy and France need now is a war over beaver.

          • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

            You could be onto something. I’ll join whichever side sports the coolest haircuts.

          • Northerner

            I say we just sit this one out; chew some baccy etc. It’ll be a blood bath on both sides.

            We can help ourselves to the beaver when it’s over.

            I’ve a cabin in the mountains.

          • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

            Only if it’s Red Man tobaccy.

          • Northerner

            ‘moist snuff’

            Like the cut of your jib Sir.

          • http://soundcloud.com/starhawk-1 Little Wolf

            Sounds fetching. This cabin you speak of….have there been any Yeti sightings recently?

          • Nanny Hiccups

            moving aside the most childish part sout of your response, you gotta admit, it’s going to be a little harder for a black woman traveling than a white one, so I do have to be careful going into countries lacking human rights. I need to be somewhere that is equal to my country as far as freedom. No, I won’t visit france because I hear the muslims are out of control. every place on this planet has something wrong with it, including america but america is crazy in a way i understand, i know how to navigate it because I’m native to this country. I like italy though, I like the way it looks, even wrote about it in my books.

            Oh well… I did see diana ross there in the movie mahogany which made me want to go since I was a little girl lol

          • Skippy

            Nanny Hiccups, I can assure you than if going to France you would rather fear cops and immigration administration (yes, particularly as a tourist) than muslims. Not that you are in danger of being beaten, but you may leave quite unpleasant situations.

        • Zhuangzi

          Seriously, Nanny. Research is great, but you’ve got to get out and see the world for yourself. And though it’s not my place to tell you how to raise your children, I would implore you to not rob them of the chance to travel because of what seems to be largely misplaced fears. Your very presence in a place can change people’s perspectives. I’ve worked at schools that refused to hire blacks before I came along. In fact, one parent personally gave me US$1000 as a parting gift when I quit my job at the first kindergarten I worked at in Taiwan. One of my first private English students in Taiwan was a multi-millionaire who had never met a black person before. In Taiwan also, a black friend of mine runs a business and hosts a TV show, another is a well-known professor, another is a director at the American school, another used to do camera work for local politicians, and another, aside from doing consulting work for corporations, tutored the children of some local magnate (whose apartment takes 17 floors and has two kitchens, one reserved solely for vegetarian cuisine), and so on. And sure, there may be some xenophobia in Japan, but at the very least do you know how much the Japanese love hip-hop, reggae, and dancehall music? The line at a reggae concert I happened upon stretched as far as I could see. Have you ever seen Japanese girls dance at a club, or in contests? Do these guys look xenophoic? http://www.wretch.cc/album/show.php?i=cjharris&b=6&f=1838098438&p=20&sp=1 A black friend of mine lived in Japan eight years and even wrote a book about his (overwhelmingly positive) experiences (called “Black Samurai”). And the hospitality I received in southern China has been pretty much unparalleled in my travels. I even was allowed to stay at a temple one night that was reserved for local monks, and that was after a random family I met in a resort town and invited me to join them for hot springs and dinner. Another (black) friend was hosting a TV show in China last I heard. His knowledge of local dialects is quite amazing. And while there is racism in Asia (though racism in the US is far more vile), it’s mostly based on ignorance and lack of exposure. In fact, it’s only in Asia that I’ve heard any girl say nappy hair is attractive!

          • Nanny Hiccups

            Zhuangzi what a refereshing point of view.

          • http://bookerzmedia.com justice

            Being black in China, I know what racism means. The thing about Chinese is that, they don’t attack blacks like in Russia. ( they have begun recently), so it’s difficult to explain. The looks and pointing,running away from you, taking pictures of you even standing in front of you,laughing harshly. The moment they see you, they start insulting you in Chinese thinking that you don’t understand. In job adverts, they write boldly that blacks should not apply. It will be a bad day for a black boy to meet a chinese boy and his girlfriend. The boy must belittle you to show the girl that he can actually protect her. (You know it’s hard for chinese boys to have girlfriends).
            I know black boy from India living near me, fearing racist insults, he only goes out at night.
            There is this training school. A woman parent went there one day to collect her daughter. To her surprise, she saw that her daughter’s class was being taught by a BLACK teacher, while next was by white. This woman furiously went to authorities asking why they should let a black teach her daughter. No explanation could convince her. She further insisted that if the girl was not sent to white man’s class,she would take her away from the institute.
            China for you. No wonder everyone wants to leave,especially black people. I am preparing to leave.

          • http://500px.com/whiskersthecat whiskersthecat

            Being black in China is what happens when you don’t cover all of your skin and pull out an umbrella as you scurry from shady patch to shady patch. At least that’s what the girls use to tell me.

          • linette

            you scurry from shady patch to shady patch………

            Stop exaggerating. You are kidding right? Are they thieves hiding behind trees?

    • mr. wiener

      A tad bitchy…wake up on the wrong side of the cat box did we?

      • http://500px.com/whiskersthecat whiskersthecat

        She rolls around a lot. Took all the covers. I was freezing the entire night.

    • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

      When did you become such a dick? All the attention from trolling has gone to your head.

      • Brett Hunan

        Hah, its true. Right up there with the likes of Hongjian and Pusan Playa. She’s a star now.

        She a real fucking gem, this NH.

        • Nanny Hiccups

          Hey, why do you assume he’s talking to me? I haven’t said anything bitchy. If you guys are referring to my comment about the man, think back, to how many comments you guys routinely make about women on here! ANd therefore, how am I any different from you? Only I’;m not as mean about it. When I looked at the picture, the man looked out of place. He looked too big, perhaps it was the angle of the camera on his legs. His wife was pretty but looked like she was planted there straight out of the 90s, while he looked like he belongs in a picture from the 1970s. I just thought it was o ne of those weird funny pictures.

          • Kukuku

            The only person too big for pictures is you, fat-bellied Hiccups.

            :)

          • Brett Hunan

            Show me any comment I made where I generalized people in a non-playful manner. Also please show me where I critique people’s looks on a feature-by-feature basis.

            If you are able to criticize everyone and everything (by that I mean all men), you should at least be able to take some criticism yourself.

            Besides, you are definitely turning into coala banana in that you crave the attention from everyone else. Maybe not in such a psychopathic way, but you are still enjoying the lime light that surrounds controversy.

          • Nanny Hiccups

            I mostly stay on topic, Brett. There really isn’t much attention that I’ve noticed. and much of that I do get is unwanted or negative. Though luckily for me it’s easy to scroll past names without reading what those persons are writing.

            And I don’t think anyone can be as sociopathic as coala. For the most part, you are mostly positive but come on, why must you insert yourself into situations that clearly don’t reference you specifically? If you know that you personally don’t do those things, so there is no reason to get upset.

          • The Enlightened One

            It’s true. We all have two sides to us but you go to the extreme…

            Calling people names for making rude comments, then turn around yourself and do it in the next article.

            Don’t pretend to be an angel if you are really just a *itch looking to the skies!

        • Nanny Hiccups

          The enlightened one, show me where I called someone a name. Just randomly. Hell, I would say I have names tossed at me unprovoked and still, I rarely do it. I do hate instances where I feel people are being cruel, like teasing those burn victims, and maybe have said it’s wicked but other than that, I don’t call anyone a name. Go back, five or ten postings, other than my argument with the guy who used racial slurs a few weeks ago, you will not find that I have called anyone a name, even when they are nasty to me. What rubs you guys the wrong way is… you guessed it!

  • moonmickey

    People in western countries increasingly see expats in China as losers because there’s such a huge amount of bad news coming out of the country. No amount of 5 mao posters and panda huggers can stem the exodus, the wiser people are heading home!

    • Joe

      Based on my observations, a large proportion non tourist whites in China are all very ugly. They visibly appear to be lower status whites. Of course this is merely observation. Maybe they’re all really talented.

      But let’s make a comparison to some grocery stores.
      Wal-Mart- Cheapest store. Low end. Lots of overweight people, generally unattractive shoppers.
      Tom Thumb- Medium class store. Grossly overweight is rare. Some overweight, but average looking folks.
      Whole Goods- Lots of very tall, attractive people. Average height seems to be 5’10″+ in these stores.

      Now if we assume a correlation between attractiveness and wealth, and wealth and intelligence, you get the big picture.

      • Nanny Hiccups

        Joe, you seemed to have lost your point. What did the grocery store bit have to do with your comment about laowai? I think that comment about foreigners in China is a bit harsh and a just a pinch unsubstantiated. Could y ou have possibly met thousands of laowai in china to substantiate such a comment?

        On the contrary, when Chinese people are in USA, they are almost always excellent or extraordinary in some way. Look at this guy:

        • Jon

          “when Chinese people are in USA, they are almost always excellent or extraordinary in some way.”

          You’ve just given yourself away as a troll.

        • The Enlightened One

          He does have a point. In my experience, a lot of foreigners in China are nice people but usually social outcasts that had trouble finding work in their own country or just college graduates looking for some experience before heading into the workforce. But a huge number of those foreigners here in China are sub-standard in terms of western society.

          And you would know that if you ACTUALLY have been in China.

          Seriously, how you perceive yourself to be such an expert based on articles and hear-say….?

          • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

            Haha. Substandard. It hurts, but it’s true. I’m king of the castle here, but back in the US I’m just another schmoe.

      • heminator

        Your tripping!

      • Jahar

        You are retarded and racist. Based on my observations, a large proportion non tourist Chinese in China are all very ugly. And the supermarket thing is rediculous.

      • hooots

        Did you mean “Whole Foods?” Sounds like someone doesn’t frequent the place and is therefore, by your logic, poor and unattractive.

        And, are you talking about those stores in China?
        1. There are no Whole Goods, Whole Foods, or Tom Thumbs in China
        2. Wal-Mart in China is neither low end nor the cheapest.

      • althepict

        Hey Joe: It’s not always a good idea to make assumptions with no substantiating evidence.

        Ok, I agree that wealth = attractiveness in China. Although it doesn’t mean the attracter is handsome/beautiful to the attractee. Could be ugly as sin – no matter; it’s the moolah that counts.

        I do not necessarily agree that wealth = intelligence, unless you’re equating that with base cunning, conniving and corruption.

        Does this mean the majority of intelligent people are wealthy? Where’s my cut?

  • Harland

    Good! Get the fuck out, I say. Too many no-talent foreigners here already. In the last year, I have met several foreigners who are not here for any other reason other than they couldn’t find a job in Europe. That’s it! So they came to China to make 9000/month at a crappy English school. No desire to be in China at all, no love for the country, no sympathy with its people. Just a job. The crazy thing is that their own governments will pay them to do nothing, so why even bother?

    The really scary foreigners are idiots who marry Chinese girls, have kids, and then put the kids into the Chinese educational system. That’s freaking child abuse. There’s this one guy from gochengdu.com that did that…I couldn’t believe it. He didn’t see anything wrong with it, either. Crazy.

    But anyway, foreigners who have been here too long are typically jerks. Good riddance to them – however I have a sneaking suspicion that they will not shut up, and keep writing stupid crap about how their Western countries are so superior to what they had in China, thus stoking ultra-nationalist bigotry towards us remaining foreigners in China. Laughing up their sleeve the whole time…after all if they can’t have China, why should anyone else be allowed to enjoy it?

    • Getrealson

      Harland, You are a fucking fool! you sound like the turds you’re describing.

      • Dr SUN

        He would, but he can’t find a job back home with a BA in General studies.

    • Kukuku

      Well Harland, here’s the bad news: Everything China does well, pretty much any other country in the world can do it better. Also, most other countries from upon spitting,pissing and shitting publicly and so on. There’s also the broad lack of empathy (active avoidance of others’ needs) as well as the extreme unpredictability of everything.

    • Jahar

      I can’t imagine it would be that hard to find a decent job in Europe. In canada, I worked part time in a pub and made twice what i make here as a teacher.

      As for love, sympathy, etc… most people anywhere get a job because they want a job, not to sympathize or love the place. But seriously, most people who I know here started with that love and sympathy but lost it for the reasons those guys are leaving. It gets tiring being treated like a monkey in a cage after a while. Also, Most of the Chinese I talk to who want to emigrate want to do it to take advantage of our countries, not because they care about us.

      “The really scary foreigners are idiots who marry Chinese girls, have kids, and then put the kids into the Chinese educational system.” You had me at “… who marry Chinese girls..”

      Anything we say to people back home isn’t to ruin their plans, but to prepare them for the real China. This isn’t the 3 kingdoms anymore.

      • b. prichard

        I’ve met plenty of Spaniards, Italians and Greeks who have come here for economic reasons, and I think they’re justified in doing so. Have you seen the unemployment rates for young adults in these countries?

        • Harland

          But in Spain, Italy, and Greece, the government gives you free money for just sitting around doing nothing. What would possibly justify going to another country to allow brutal capitalists to exploit your labor to enrich themselves?

          • maja

            italy, spain and greece don’t have that kind of social welfare (literally DON’T have) and… guess? young people are forced to accept 600€-5kRMB/month jobs and consider themselves lucky.

          • Thor

            Keep on dreaming, man. You don’t get anything from nothing wherever you go, especially these times. Haven’t you got at all the news where you are ? These three countries appear to be, along with Portugal, the most in dismay since 2008.

          • Alain

            Wrong harland, just wrong. I met an italian in Nanning, married to a chinese lady, with no desire to return to his hometown of southern italy because of the economic crisis and no job opportunities, unless working in a supermarket counts as an opportunity.

            So, to him, having a cheaper cost of living, nice wife, and employment….would you say he should go home? You are sounding like you are chinese now, btw.

          • Harland

            Wow…just, wow. That’s really, really scary. Life as a fucknut nobody in China is better than being a European? What happened to Europe? I have been assured, for years, that Europe is the best place on the planet because of its social welfare for the less fortunate. Have I been a victim of lies all along? Shocking.

            Even in brutal capitalist criminal imperialist pig USA anyone can get welfare + food stamps + section 8 housing and live comfortably, with enough money for Xbox and an ounce of weed until the next government check arrives. Europeans have been holding themselves up as superior…and now I find that it was all a big lie. That a shitbag English teacher can make “high-paying” money in China. Shocking, is all I can say. I’m going to give Europeans a lot more shit from now on, seeing that they neglect their own citizens in such a way. And they call themselves socialists!!!

          • Alain

            That a shitbag English teacher can make “high-paying” money in China. Shocking, is all I can say. I’m going to give Europeans a lot more shit from now on, seeing that they neglect their own citizens in such a way. And they call themselves socialists!!!

            Whether it is high paying is subjective, surely. But compared to earning around 5-6k rmb a month for working in a supermarket, and earning and saving nothing, then yes being a teacher in China with a lower living cost is far better. And welfare does not pay all that great, in the UK it is next to nothing at all. Calling an entire continent/people “socialists” isn’t really constructive, it’s like saying all americans are republicans, just not true is it?

            The fact still stands, China is not all that bad, no, the pet shop boys song of old, Go West is all wrong. Go EAST young man!

      • moonmickey

        Well said, you nailed it there. Its a vastly different place now.

      • Alain

        Also, Most of the Chinese I talk to who want to emigrate want to do it to take advantage of our countries, not because they care about us.

        Well said, 1 thing I agree with Donald Trump about “these are not our friends!”.

        It is economic warfare. In the area of Spain where my parents live, there is no love for the Chinese. I won’t even go into the bad name they say in spanish about them, much worse than “laowai”. Their warehouses were burned, and it got so bad the police had to protect them. Nuff said eh?

      • Dr SUN

        What do you say to a Social Studies/ Education/ Politics/ MBA graduate ” can you super size that, please ? “

    • Alain

      The crazy thing is that their own governments will pay them to do nothing, so why even bother?

      Try living on 56 pounds a week unemployment benefits in the UK, and eating well, and living a nice lifestyle, impossible.

      Blame the workfare scheme which limits employment opportunities also.

      No, nothing wrong with working in China, earning 10,000 a month, saving half of it, and skimming some cash out from China, nothing at all. Put up a fake resume on eslteachersboard.com and see how many emails you get offering high paying teaching jobs in China, especially if you are white and good looking.

      Why wouldn’t young unemployed handsome white westerners want to go? Imagine if it was the other way round eh? Unfair I know, but think about it, dwell on it, seethe about it if you want to, but you know I am right and this is the truth….

      • Harland

        10k yuan is a thousand pounds a month. Minimum wage in the UK is the same. High-paying…you keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

        • Kukuku

          Harland, let me put it this way:

          I currently earn 8-10k a month now teaching English in China.

          In Canada, I earned about 5k rmb/week. I’m still much richer now in China for the following reasons:

          -My rent (including electricity, internet, phone, water and cable) is FREE.

          -Food is dirt cheap here, especially basic food if you’re good at cooking (I am).

          -I don’t have/need a car here and as far as I know the money I get is net. In Canada I gave something like 20-30% of my income in taxes + 15% in stores when buying.

          At the end of the month, I save on average 5-7k rmb. I don’t know many people nowadays who save about $12,000 a year.

          • The Enlightened One

            That’s because Ontario sucks.

            And I know you come from Ontario because you said 15% in sales tax. You should try Alberta or B.C. when you decide to go back, and you will in time.

          • Kukuku

            Actually I’m from Quebec.

          • Kukuku

            Already worked in Alberta and BC a decade ago or so. Been there done that.

          • Kukuku

            I’m leaving China in Feb btw. I’ll be done with my 2 years here and my goals will have been accomplished. My biggest one was getting rid of my debt. I’ll be entirely debt free in 2 months.

            I’m going to teach in Japan/Korea/Africa/Russia… next. I don’t plan on going back home.

          • The Enlightened One

            Alberta is booming now. Tons of money there. For example Calgary doubled in size in the past ten years.

            In the past, it left a lot to be desired.

            I agree though, once you are out… it’s hard to go back.

            Of your choices, I would suggest Japan for comfort. I hear Russia isn’t too bad. Korea sounds about the same as China just cleaned up a bit. Africa, I have no clue.

          • Kukuku

            I may have an interview in the states (Louisiana). Apparently there is an organization there recruiting (actual) teachers to teach French as a second language. I do fit the requirements and I absolutely love the USA (my father is a truck driver and brought me with him all the time to the US as a kid), but to tell you the truth I’d rather go to Japan or Africa maybe.

            Japan because I know enough to speak the language a little bit (anime/manga geek ftw) – Africa because now that I’m debt free I can afford to go out and work for peanuts or so and do some humanitarian work.

            As for China: I had an offer on the table for Japan too, but I decided to go to China on a whim because I wanted to try a place I never thought about going to before.

          • Harland

            Now we all know you’re a fraud. A Canadian who loves the USA? Impossible. Where’s the hatred? Bu$hitler? CheneyMcHalliburtonEarthquake Machine? Didn’t you get the memo?

          • Kukuku

            Sorry, being a “bastard” who has a French speaking dad and an English speaking mom, it’s hard for me to follow the usual anti-American rhetoric.

            I’ve been called a traitor at home,on radio, for becoming an English teacher and leaving Quebec to work in China. When I was a kid I was told at school that anglophones are barely better than animals and that they are barbarians trying to oppress the good people of Quebec.

            On the other hand I got into Canadian exchange programs as a teen and lived in Ontario for a few months with a family there and worked for 6 months in Alberta on a kill-floor for Olymel. When I came back I got lucky and got trained on the job to become a CNC operator/programmer as I was smart enough apparently. I kept that job for 8 years and was the one doing business on the phone for my employer when we had to talk with clients that don’t speak French. I’m 27 now btw.

            I’m still young but I noticed this general trend and it’s simply that Quebecers, on average, like anglophones as much as the Chinese like the Japanese. On the other hand, I rarely felt that anglophones outside Quebec had any actual hate towards me because I was from Quebec. I generally got congratulations for my English and they would usually tell me they wished they could speak French too.

            One of my favorite memories of when I was a child was when I went with my father to an Amish village somewhere in the states to deliver farming equipment. That was fascinating.

        • http://mikespizzakitchen.com MPK

          Inconceivable!

        • Jahar

          Dude your math sucks. 10k rmb is only like $1500 a month, so it cant be 3k pounds

        • Alain

          Now you are just being rhetorical, or to quote one of my favourite comedians, talking bucking follox!

          10k rmb is not bad, for just opening your yap 20 times a week, alternatively, you can clean the bogs in your local wal mart in some sleepy dusty backwater of the USA for the same cash? No brainer isn’t it. Plus the Chinese take European jobs/money, so why shouldn’t EU citizens do the same, if the shoe fits, etc etc

          Just stirring up debate, and nowt wrong with that, as there is nowt stranger than folk. Or should I go back to making me coffins passed down from me grandfather like, but as I as a gammie leg, can’t see ne way out form that like, nay, I thinks 10000 reningbi fer a months yacker is a fair whack of spondoolicks….wot sayeth thee lad?

      • linette

        That’s the impression I am getting. I often wonder why would foreigners want to go live in China. Seems like they get treated as superior by the locals. They automatically get higher pay for the same job compare to the locals. Women throw themselves at them. They don’t get that kind of treatment in their own country.

        • Dr SUN

          Ask you this Linette, it may help you answer your own question.

          If you had to have lets say spinal surgery done in mainland China and you had the choice of 2 surgeons, one trained at Hainan medical college the other trained at Harvard, which one would you choose and would you expect a price difference ?

          • Linette

            I see. You are saying because of their credentials so they get higher pay for the same job. That’s fair. They should get better pay. But you can’t deny those no skills required jobs the foreigners also get higher pay simply because of their skin color. The locals in China see them as superior.

          • Kukuku

            Maybe we are?

            :)

        • Alain

          Because we like 2 kuai fried rice bowls perhaps?

          Stinky tofu? Stinky chinese womens feet? Cold tsingtao….or maybe we just like the culture, the language?

          Maybe we like stirring up the pot a bit, winding up other expats, and getting out into the world, and a cuddle and a snuggle up with a dark haired olive skinned chinese beauty, or who knows maybe we got bored of making coffins at home with a gammy leg, lord knows there is a man, and there is a man. Read Conrad and his tales of the east, about the western man who had become accustomed to easier life on the eastern shores, nay, nothing wrong with that, squatting on a plastic stool swilling back some harbin while munching on various bbqed tofu pieces, yang rou, beef and spud, all the while uttering sweet nothings to some pretty chinese gal and ganbeing with the locals, get off your high horse, linette, you have nay lived lassie….get in ter real world, and see how the real man lives…..you sound llike an expat banker in HK who knows no chinese, and only eats with a gold plated knife and fork in kowloon.,….no, we will keep coming….like it or lump it lass!

          • Linette

            you are so crazy. You know nothing about me. My life is as difficult as yours. Nothing was handed to me on silver plate. I work hard my whole life. I guarantee you I work harder than most women in the western countries or in those Asia major cities. Grow up.

          • linette

            get off your high horse, linette, you have nay lived lassie….get in ter real world…..

            You have no IDEAL how difficult it’s for an Asian person to move into a western society. When I first came over to the USA, I knew some English but not enough to understand everything in school. I struggled in order to keep up my grades. You try to keep up your grade while studying your classes in Chinese and see how hard it is! You will drop out for sure. It was very tough. I cried.
            I got some scholarship but I had to take out student loans to pay full tuition and it’s like a mortgage I’ll be paying for the next 10yrs. So expensive! While studying I had to work long hours making minimum wage at some bakery to support myself. I slept like 5 to 6 hours a day on an average. My normal day would be like getting up 5:30am in the morning, commute to school on trains in the freezing cold to a 7:30 am class. In the afternoon I will go work making minimum wage. Then I go home and study. Weekends all work and never play. I did that through out my college years. Studying in University and working simultaneously is extremely intensive. As a result I failed one class and I was so upset unable to accept my failure I attempted suicide. I hated my life and my school and work. I hated the new environment. I swallowed one whole bottle of acetaminophen mixing with ibuprofen. I didn’t have any benzodiapine thank god! I even wrote a death note and left it in my drawer. I ended up vomiting everything out the whole night. Attempt failed! Life is hard. It’s no joke. I understand that many moons ago.

          • The Enlightened One

            Jeez Linette,

            Sorry to hear that but glad to vomited them out. Life can be very hard at times but if you get through it, you will be a lot tougher than most people. NEVER GIVE UP.

          • linette

            The Enlightened One, good thing I have a weak stomach. Very sensitive. I get drunk easily and I can’t hold medicine. I wasn’t thinking clearly. I was young. I was in a state of shock when I received my grade. I have never failed before my whole life in school. That was crazy. I never told my parents about this. They will be upset. But thank you anyway. Life is just not easy, nothing is free. ;)

        • Alain

          My life is as difficult as yours.

          On this I should apologize, and explain. I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. Old man was heavily into property, mum a cushy and comfortable job at a bank, never wanted for anything growing up, so perhaps there I was a bit harsh, and for that I am sorry.

          Nothing was handed to me on silver plate. I work hard my whole life.

          That is admirable, nothing at all wrong with that. I am not afraid of hard work either, did it, from when I was young until know. Nothing at all wrong with it.

          I guarantee you I work harder than most women in the western countries or in those Asia major cities.

          Now this is just a matter of opinion. I could say I work harder than most men in the eastern countries or those in Western major cities? would you believe me, thought not?

          Grow up.

          Perhaps I need to. But it is nothing personal at the end of the day, this virtual sparring will keep you young and mentally sharp, on the edge, where you need to be. Just like stirring up the soup a bit, thats all, its never personal.

      • Young Man

        Look, I really have to say that 10,000 is nothing these days.

        Any eastern city- 10,000 minimum

        Beijing or Shanghai 15,000 minimum.

        That’s net. Actually, you should start with a much higher request- I’d suggest around 18,000 in Beijing and 15,000 in other places.

        If there are fewer and fewer foreigners AND everyone wants to live… er; study abroad then it stands to reason that we should all ask for more, right?

        • Alain

          ’d suggest around 18,000 in Beijing and 15,000 in other places.

          Be lucky to get that young fella know it all lad. Have you got the MASTERS DEGREE to earn 20,000 rmb in Ningbo at Nottingham uni. So I seriously doubt your quoted salary figures, I was able to live and save very well on 6,000 rmb a month, then I had a free flat and lived frugally. There is the answer as to why grovelling weasels who earn that 10,000 a month still save nothing, live within your means and you can save 4,000 rmb a month of 6,000, have a free flat and not even have to open your yap fer 16 classes a week, or you can be a training centre grovelling weasel and have to work harder and still save nothing.

          I’d love to hear of these jobs at 15,000 for FT’s with no degree in BJ or SH and who would want to live in those cities anyway, they attract GW’s like flies to .,……no living in a second tier is better and cheaper. Do your research young feller me lad!

          • Young Man

            I earn 17,200 net.
            I have an MA and a CELTA teaching certificate.
            I work 18 hours a week.
            I DO work part-time as an IELTS examiner as well and so that might have something to do with it, I’ll admit.

            But what I say is true and all the foreigners I know earn similar salaries (but then all the foreigners I know also work as IELTS examiners- this may have a knock-on effect).

            When I was looking for work I walked straight out of a few interviews when it became apparent they weren’t going to contemplate the salary I was asking- I just kept looking and eventually found what I was looking for.

            I had to go to Mongolia to get my Z Visa which was weird but I got a well-paid job without too many hours and I’m happy- sorry that everyone else isn’t in the same position.

            “It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” – Mark Twain

          • Alain

            @ Young Man (angry young man?):

            Where did I dispute what you earn? If you earn that then more power to you, just no need to be boastful about it, that is certainly not the norm for FTs in China, but then you do have an MA and CELTA so kudos, you are far more qualified than other FTs in China, I doff my hat to you my lad.

            I had to go to Mongolia to get my Z Visa which was weird but I got a well-paid job without too many hours and I’m happy- sorry that everyone else isn’t in the same position.

            Not sure why you would have to go to Mongolia, no you play the system and get L visas, better that way, no health check involved and no VISA RUNS! Are you really sorry that other’s dont earn what you earn? I genuinely hope that you are on that point.

            “It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” – Mark Twain

            Not sure what the above american lit quote is for. What’s it all about? Must get back,got a few coffins to finish and a sky interview with a woman named miss wanger for a gig in tiang jing fer 10,000 reningbi per mont, she seems a nice lass like, and owt is better than drinking the scrumpy after the missus left me and took me dog along with her, so owt is better than nowt, she said they will fly me over there with Air China in cattle class, and tha i used to it like, so it will all be good, as I may be losing my disabilitie benefit like and me gammie leg is nay good fer workin in the cofin makin bizness like….it’s teeching englis out in Chine or bust fer me, now wot sayeth thee now laddie?

    • moonmickey

      I’m partly getting out because of something my lady and I saw in Beijing. A group of migrants were hanging around at the night food market near the Novotel in Wangfujing and a 4×4 pulled up. 3 cops jumped out and approached them and after a few seconds started to push the adults into the tail door area where a dog would have trouble feeling comfortable.

      They beat the legs of the adults to get them in and then piled the children on top of their legs. One of the cops slammed pushed tail door down and it hit something so he started slamming it hard on these people. IT wouldn’t close so one of these fuckers went to the driver door and came back with a metal banded truncheon and tased everyone in side, they were screaming and screaming until there was silence. Not a thing we could do and the worst thing I’ve ever seen a human do to another. You think we want our little girl to grow up in a place like that? No chance! got my wife’s visa yesterday, China, good riddance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • The Enlightened One

        Yeah, that’s the cheng guan probably.

        They treat migrant workers like a pestilence whenever they get the chance. It’s the first time most of them feel any sense of power in their lives.

        Sorry to hear about your experience, it can be soul crippling.

        • dr_barefoot

          The chengguan’s actions are as much an expression of the mentality and purpose of the powers that be in this country than the police or any other public “servant”.

      • althepict

        @MM:
        Yeah, but it’s not just migrant workers.
        I went to check out a place near where I live in SZ just to see if it could be a possible venue to sit, drink a beer and read a book (such is sadly lacking). It was almost empty at the time. Said I was just looking. The ‘management’ got jumpy. Two very large Chinese security guards dressed in US desert warfare uniforms, complete with boots and steel helmets (I kid you not), escorted me swiftly outside the back door to an alley and, equally swiftly, broke my right arm.
        I’m still here. Why, I ask myself?

        • Young Man

          Really?

          Did that really happen?

    • http://amazon.com/author/rc richardnorth

      Harland You lost me when you poured scorn on fine expatriate gentlemen married to local Chinese women of beauty, intelligence and charisma, sending their kids to local schools. More of these type of expats surely improves the image overall of the white male working in China? Half-cast kids are usually way above average intelligence.

  • fsun
  • Getrealson

    I’m out of here!

    4 months and counting. I came, I saw now I know. whatever is wrong with china, it will never change. In fact as the article suggests it will just get worse. Not only are the initial problems not being addressed but they grow new ones every day and the people are too indifferent to it to do anything about it. It’s a shame because I have met some great people here and wish a better future for them.

    • David.is.Dawei

      Hello Getrealson,
      Where have you lived in China and for how long?
      What brought you to China initially and did you achieve whatever goal you had when you arrived?
      Thanks,
      Dave

      • The Enlightened One

        You know that is a good question.

        Many of us setup goals when we come here and I feel I have accomplished them. I didn’t get into too much trouble, I learned Chinese (maybe not as fluent as I had liked) and I was able to see China from many different angles and broaden my mind.

        I am with you getrealson, I have been monitoring the news and how things are going. It seems the social unrest is only going to get worse and demand is rising but the quality is not. We are easy targets and I am not going to wait around long enough to get into the wrong situation at the wrong time.

      • Getrealson

        Hey Dave,

        My girlfriend in Australia was Chinese studying at university. She moved in with me and 3 years later we married and came back so her side of the family doesn’t miss out. Inter continental marriages can be hard in this sense. I was always curious about china but really I came for a change. I hated the idea of being one of those people who learned yet not traveled. Because of my trade, I’ll always have a job back home waiting for me that pays very well but money was not my motivation. (Until now! My wife just gave birth to our first [boy!] now it seems a little more important when planning the near future)

        I know I’m still not considered a real Ex-Pat because I have only been here two years. I have met some strange foreigners here but good ones also.

        It just annoys me that both Chinese and Foreigners assume because you live here you must be a woman chasing, English teaching drunk that can’t find a job back home.

        What about all the foreign consultants, architects, lawyers, engineers etc that have options but choose to be here for now whatever the reason. I’ve seen whole families here not just single middle aged men.

        And speaking for myself, I come from Australia! basically a tropical island! clean air, wildlife, foods from every corner of the earth, blue skies that almost hurts your eyes to look at it’s so clear. Water 20 ft deep and so clear you can see the bottom. When I’m there I spend all my spare time camping in the national parks, fishing and hunting in places some or few men have never even been. Friends, family and things I know.

        I wouldn’t trade that for easy pussy and a false sense of superiority like some people claim. Truthfully when I return home I hope I will have a new appreciation for what I have and better perspective on people and environment.

        • The Enlightened One

          My sentiments exactly. Some things just aren’t worth it, and the only reason I can see for staying in China is saving more money due to the lower living costs.

          When you got money (and that’s why the rich leave) you simply can’t find any other reason than family. Which is why they bring them over too.

        • David.is.Dawei

          Thanks for the replies Guys,

          Gong Xi Ni (on the baby).

          You see social unrest where you are?
          or hostility towards foreigners?

          My colleagues in China are telling me business has been slowing, but no one has lost their job yet. They are worried though.
          According to statistics I’ve read, China’s growth is projected to go down to 7%, with 5% of that due to internal Construction projects.

          China has a conundrum and I’m not sure they can resolve it without significantly changing the way they do things.

          I applaud your courage to go; nothing in life is forever, but perhaps will lead to opportunities that would not have otherwise become available. When faced with these types of decisions I always think back to one of my favorite poems by R.L. Sharpe
          http://www.faith-forward.org/isn-t-it-strange-.htm

          All the Best,
          Dave

          • Getrealson

            No mate, not at all! besides the annoying little things not too bad here in Shan dong. I just long for home more than being forced out by hostilities. People here for the most part treat me kindly.

          • Fraser

            I’m a researcher/lecturer in Mathematics here. I came here to get some work experience, and to experience another city in China. I’ve lived in both Taiwan and China, but I couldn’t get a job in Taiwan, despite my qualifications.

            I thought living here would be fun, and I could get some work experience while I’m at it. Nearly 4 months in to my 1 year contract and I deeply regret it.

            It’s not so much the job, I actually quite like my job. It’s very relaxing, low pressure, decent pay. It’s the environment. Almost as soon as I got here I started thinking “what have I got myself into?”.

            The other thing is, it’s very stifling being here from a scientific point of view. There is nobody here that shares my interests mathematically, so I don’t get to talk with my colleagues about various problems and share ideas. I don’t get to attend conferences and give talks to other experts in my field.

            Having said that, I don’t hate it here, it just really isn’t for me. I have since applied for a job in Taiwan, but only one, because I could only get once response from a university in Taiwan. But even if I don’t get it I’m still going to Taiwan to work as an English teacher until I find something else. I just can’t bear living here anymore.

  • andywattbulb

    Also because Chinese are wacist.

    • El Puma R.

      lol to that

  • Brett Hunan

    Timing is everything.

    I think one of the causes many people want to get out is because before you go to China, the whole idea of going there is romanticized. People expect some exotic Asian country with bamboo, rich culture, beautiful women in qipao, kung fu and the works…. that’s the way it is in the movies, right? Then its some love/hate relationship. Most people will stay for a while, and then leave when they tire of the place.

    I don’t know why this article is surprising. Everyone knows that you can’t get citizenship if your white/black. China just isn’t the kind of place people plan to spend the rest of their lives. Its a temporary spot for those that want to try it out.

    • Chunghwa

      Reminds me of this

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

      Japanese travel to France and end up having mental breakdowns, because it’s not like what they thought it would be. “I thought France was supposed to be beautiful and romantic just like in my movies and magazines… why are there Arabs and black people everywhere?”

      • juiced

        cos all the french people live in canada and australia :)
        p.s i hope you know black people can be french toooooo.

    • Kukuku

      Reminds me of my mother’s ex husband. He was from Morocco. He lived with her in Canada for 3 years and got his citizenship. He went back there with me for vacation to see his family and he was disgusted by all the trash everywhere and how people treat each other. He never noticed when he was part of this.

      • linette

        teaching in a supermegafuckingshaolintemple all up over Huangshan mountain………………..

        supermegafuckingshaolintemple.
        Did you use 鐵砂掌 on your students?

        • Kukuku

          What is this I don’t even?

    • El Puma R.

      My former roommate in China was this Australian guy who married a Chinese girl and took her back home. First thing she said about Australia: “it’s too quiet” She is a lovely person, but she didn’t learn much english, nor made friends, and she doesn’t get out of the house. The girl got pregnant and her father went to Australia to take care of her. 3 weeks later, the old dude says he wants to go back to China because Australia is too quiet and it makes him feel scared. So the old dude is coming back to china, and wants to convince his pregnant daughter to come back with him. It is my friend’s personal life but I thought I should mention it. Just when she thought she was living a dream, turns out she feels better among the noise and the pollution, like when I came to china I thought I was going to be teaching in a supermegafuckingshaolintemple all up over Huangshan mountain learning how to flickick people’s foreheads but no… I found what we already know, and to find what I want to see and do, I have to go to whatever mountain it is in the middle of whereverthefuck it is and I have to take a a 10 hour “D” train and another 48 hour “K” train to get there. And when you get there, all the beauty is stolen by the noise of the exhausts and there’s an old photo of the old temple destroyed either by the japanese or by Mao and his friends.

      I thought I would be closer to all those things, but no… in a society that tends to forget about it, I move. Anyway, what I wonder is what our real values are: I can marry a Chinese girl but I can’t even think about raising a kid in China, the sole idea is simply inconceivable.

      Japanese have mental breakdowns because being a retarded freak is fashionable in their country… and I didn’t say that, Japanese people told me.

      • Winter B4 Spring

        “…And when you get there, all the beauty is stolen by the noise of the exhausts and there’s an old photo of the old temple destroyed either by the japanese or by Mao and his friends….”

        LOL. Sigh. Reminds me of 1969.

  • 平凡人

    Another 5 years, getting my butt out of China, been here long enough. tired of the growing number of
    1. impatient people here (can be seen by the way they drive)
    2. rude people (can be seen by the way they talk to people)
    3. people who flaunt their so call “wealth”. (too many examples)
    4. people who have no concern for others and public property (too many examples)
    5. people who waste food.
    In general, people here are getting very self centred and proud; all traditional Chinese value only exist in books.

    • El Puma R.

      I should have read you before, I was just commenting about what our real values are.

      In big cities in china if you even mention anything traditional , most people will assume it’s not relevant, or even interesting. (thank God not everyone)

      And they waste food, so much food! argh !

      • The Enlightened One

        Aye, that they do!

        You would think after million of their people starving… they would bring back a doggy bag or two. But most of the dinners I go to… they think it is embarrassing while a few kids are begging for food down the street.

        I had a theory that the 2008 Beijing Olympics (as beautiful as it was) has actually backfired badly. A ton of people around the world believe China was a clean, culturally rich place, so they came to visit and potentially work here. It’s four years later and more people are learning that the Beijing they saw is not the Beijing it normally is… and the rest of China is a very far cry from that.

        • Winter B4 Spring

          Yup. But the chinese communist apologists here just kept deflecting criticisms of problems in contemporary China :( …aiyahhhhh

  • mr. wiener

    Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

    • El Puma R.

      Have a safe trip mate

  • Teacher in China

    I love the graphic showing why Chinese people are sending their children abroad, especially when you relate it to what age they’re sending them. The highest proportion are sending them for high school. The reason seems pretty clear to me: their kid obviously did poorly on the zhong kao (the middle school test), so they’re opting to send them overseas as a face-saving measure.

    The education system sucks here, and it’s the one thing that would send me away and back home. I recently got married to Chinese woman and moved to her small town in Dongbei. she has a little 5 year old nephew (my nephew now too, I guess!) who has to do homework every night!! 5 years old, doing homework!!! And not just a little bit, either – it takes him like an hour to do it. I’ve also tutored a middle school kid here who tells me that at her age, they are easily doing homework for at least 5 hour every night. What is the homework? Recopying famous texts seems to be one favourite for the teachers. What a horrific waste of time and waste of youth. And none of it is going to change until the country somehow changes its university entrance system – that gao kao causes ripples going all the way back to my poor 5 year old nephew doing homework every night.

    • Kukuku

      As an actual English teacher (degree and all), I often don’t know where to start when I get on the subject of homework because it drives me nuts.

      In a nutshell: Homework has been shown scientifically to NOT improve students results, even on standardized tests. This is absolutely true at the primary level, and still true until you get to college/university when you take into account other variables.

      • Fraser

        Western scientists, Chinese people are different you know. This news story isn’t news to me. At HK university they have 300 places for Chinese students, and they get about 12,000 applicants.

        I came here to get a bit of work experience. I’ve been here for 3 months and am counting the days till my contract finally expires and I can leave.

        I teach and research mathematics, I have a PhD and work at a top university here. The students just don’t seem to understand how you study. I gave them some problems to do at home, then at the lecture they were supposed to hand it in, I gave them my solutions. Rather than listen to me lecture, they copied my solutions, word for word (I mean exactly), then handed me that at the end of the class.

        The other thing they do here, that drives me crazy, is have 2 hour lectures, and semesters that are 20 weeks long. Seriously? You expect people to pay attention for 2 hours at least 2 times per week (that’s just for one class, they might have 5 or 6), for 20 weeks? It’s totally bonkers.

        • Kukuku

          I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you were sarcastic talking about Western scientists. :)

          Yes, that is a problem. Students don’t know how to study. They know how to cram “facts” (won’t even call it knowledge at this point) in their skull to puke answers to your questions when a test comes around.

          I never taught maths, but my experience teaching has shown me there is a huge difference between mechanically learning a formula and using it and actually understanding the underlying principles and applying them when needed and expanding upon them. I’m sure most of your students don’t “understand” in that way – curiosity has been schooled out of them.

          • Fraser

            You are correct. That’s the problem with one party dictatorships. They don’t want a population full of free thinking people, they want mindless robots who just go along with party doctrine. If you taught students to be curious, free thinking, and asking lots of questions in a subject like maths, well that leads them doing the same thing about the government right?

            One thing I remember from my high school days was being taught how to interpret and analyse things that are said by the government. We were taught in great detail how politics work, how governments create laws and policies and why sometimes countries go to war with each other.

            They do not get taught any of that. If they are taught anything it’s just how great Mao was, and how wonderful the CCP is.

          • Kukuku

            I remember a conversation I had with a co-teacher at my school here. She started talking about my favorite student because she keeps asking questions in class, has “too much energy” and “she is always smiling.” She thought I would agree, but I simply had to tell her that if all my students were like her I would be obsolete and unneeded and that my dream for any country yearning for greatness is to have classes with only students like her.

            My student wants to study in Canada/America eventually. I hope she will still have her flame when it happens and she decides to never return. Any country accepting a girl like her is gaining a lot.

          • El Puma R.

            Kukuku and Fraser

            I totally agree with both of you… but we must not forget that education is declining everywhere, including in the US with the “no child left behind” policy. No government likes people who think, since the dawn of our time and even though it’s remarkable how china and it’s selfish capitalism makes us see it from a very extreme point of view, we can’t deny it’s happening everywhere.

            Not more than 100 years ago, some people was still using the trivium and quadrivium (the 7 liberal arts) to educate children. In china they were also using the Confucian school of thought. Some people who home-school their children in the west, they do too. All the relevant people of the last millennium they all learned from these I mentioned, even some of our teachers might have applied them in our education. But now… (sigh)… Somehow we must appreciate the fact that we might be the last decently-educated generation on this planet.

          • Teacher in China

            @ Frasier – you should check out (if you haven’t already) Paulo Friere’s work on “banking education”, etc. It confirms a lot of what you say (in which case, I guess you don’t need to check it out…..)

          • Kukuku

            @El Puma R:

            I agree it is happening in the Western world as well. This “race to the top” is bad for everyone. What I get from this is that we want children from other countries to NOT learn as well as children in our own country. This is a sick mentality.

            I remember talking with a friend here. He kept telling me that Chinese people will be better people and “progress” once they have a lot of money. Looking back on the history of Canada and America, it is true that wealth does help, but the primary reason we are the way we are is not because of our money, but what we did that made us rich in the first place. Wealth was a by-product.

          • tai wai

            That’s the problem with one party dictatorships. They don’t want a population full of free thinking people, they want mindless robots who just go along with party doctrine.

            How would you manage 1.3 billion people with torches and pitchforks?

            Remember that before this dictatorship, China had just gone through 30 YEARS of civil war.

            That’s preferable?

          • Winter B4 Spring

            Far out, Fraser!! I completely agree with you! If they were taught to think, the party is afraid 1989 would happen again. The things they were taught, writing and memorizing, as Chinese as it seems, some of them are Communist thoughts. Aka brainwashing since young. And that explains the red scarf and the fist in the air, swearing allegiance to Marxism, at school (yet it seems the party accuses others, with different views from communism, of playing “politics”).

            A professor i met at work, he was very baffled by a conversation he had with a new Chinese migrant. They were acquaintances. However, during a friendly casual discussion on China and politics, the professor’s logic was winning, and this newer migrant suddenly got angry and shouted, “You cult!!” (One of the famous accusation that the party uses to frame others for not conforming to communist doctrines).

            However, on another comment re “30 year civil war”, just saying, that i strongly believe it is just an excuse for the party to hang on to power. And the party has said it so many times that many people believed it to be a fact. Yes, 1.3 billion people. Thats a lot, i agree. India has a lot of people. Their democracy isn’t perfect. They have internal political issues too. But they aren’t in civil war. Some countries are smaller, with authoritarians or military as govt, yet they erupt into civil wars within a timeframe of a few months. I do not think the number of citizens in a country, and its political ideology, is a formula for a civil war.

            Civil war in China was terribly unfortunate. And a product of history. The later Ming dynasty (Han Chinese) was very weak, and was invaded by the Manchus, who formed the Qing dynasty. But the early Manchus incorporated their culture into Chinese culture, and learned from the ancient dynasties who were predominantly Hans. They ruled by “following the celestial laws” and actually helped spread Chinese culture. The later period of Qing began to decline, and at its end, was exceptionally weak and couldn’t protect China from invasions. As a result, finally, the Chinese people turned to communism, seemingly won the country back, but then this same political ideology (communism) claimed many lives through many political movements. And as we speak, many persecuted groups are still suffering imprisonment, tortures, labour camps, broken families, broken bodies, loss of jobs, etc.

            Maybe, if it wasn’t for communism, contemporary China would have been more advanced in culture and creative in technology. It could have even far surpassed the USA and Australia as a leading 1st world country. Mao brought the country backwards and barbaric through many “movements” in accordance to the principles of communism and his own thoughts, Maoism.

            Deng opened the economy and declared making money is glorious, thus resulting in money-worshipping. 1989 Tiananmen Massacre was a memorable event under Deng’s command to stifle the innate will of the people to be free from authoritarianism.

            The next President, Jiang, then decided he needed a movement to consolidate his authority, and suddenly decided to “ruin their reputation, bankrupt them financially, and destroy them physically” on the Falun Gong people. The Falun Gong was actually made famous and supported by the state apparatus as it brought so much good and health out of people. Overnight, they were demonized as a so-called “cult”, “setting fire to themselves”, “murderers”, “anti China”, “supported by CIA”, etc. I, unfortunately, was once tricked by all these Chinese “news” & believed them. But look at all those Falun Gong people in Chinatown and where i live. Or around the world but China. They are one of the most peaceful lot of fellas i have seen around. And through this, i am doubting the claims of the party that Tibetans were once so-called “enslaved” by the Lama, or the Uyghurs are so-called “terrorists”.

            I feel 1.3 billion people free from the party is an asset to China.

            Having said that, it also a product of history, and as we see, gradually, China is now imploding, at least, politically. :)

          • Winter B4 Spring

            woops — Correction:
            “But look at all those Falun Gong people in Chinatown and where i live. Or around the world (but only in China, seemingly?). They are one of the most peaceful lot of fellas i have seen around.

          • tai wai

            I completely agree with you! If they were taught to think, the party is afraid 1989 would happen again.

            Do you want 1989 to happen again?

        • Qi

          I personally think it is just different study methods with western education style. Outstanding and remarkable people from all the different cultures, it is hard to say which is right which is wrong. It was hard for me to get used to western education patterns, in the beginning of it, i felt like i didn’t learn anything, however, you just need to open up to the culture and enjoy then you can learn and gain. as a student, no doubt you need to think and create your own ideas, however, you also need to learn the basics and other ppl’s ideas, based on that you can dig and think more depth or question. when i was learning English in the UK, my English teacher also said, try to remember the good sentences in the articles, once you remembered them and use them, they are yours and you can try to make better sentences from it.

          • Fraser

            The other thing I forgot to mention is the complete lack of manners that students seem to have. I’m constantly having to tell them to stop talking during class. They just sit at the back of the room having a conversation with each other, loudly, and totally disrupting the class.

            This isn’t just in classes I’ve taught, but in talks I’ve given. They don’t seem to get why that kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

          • Kukuku

            Unfortunately I have to disagree. Teaching methods in China are not merely styles to be accommodated, they are a problem that needs to be solved.

            It may surprise you, but education, as a field, is NOT static. A lot of research is being conducted all the time and the results are published constantly and available to anyone who cares to get them. Unsurprisingly, teachers in China mostly NEVER update their curriculum accordingly.

            The methods used in China have been proven to:

            -Decrease interest in learning,
            -Decrease quality of learning,
            -Decrease quality of teaching,
            -Decrease happiness,
            -Decrease dept of thinking,
            -Increase dependence on memorization,
            -Increase the gap between the haves and have nots,
            -Increase obedience and subordination,
            -Increase dependence on undemocratic methods and behaviors,
            -Increase dependence on reward and punishment systems,
            -Increase money spent on tests that fail to measure what they are supposed to measure,
            -Increase stress and money spent to prepare for these useless tests.

            The list goes on.

            I’m also not saying this is not happening in Canada and America, because it does. Teachers advocating this model, in light of what research has shown, should have their certifications taken from them and be kicked out of schools.

          • Qi

            same is here, i am doing a degree in Australia at the moment, on the lectures, students are talking and laughing, some of them even kissing in the back of the theater. i guess it is one of the natures of human. back to the point, people are different, you can not make everyone do the same thing, feel the same or using the methods or live the same way.

          • linette

            One of my girlfriend is a public middle school teacher in USA. She also always complain about the teaching methods and the way classes are set up in major cities in USA. She complains to me all the time. It’s very common in public school from kindergarten to High school to have class size like 1 teacher for 32 kids. Within this group some kids may have behavior problem disrupting the teacher from teaching. Often not much teaching gets done. She always end up giving a lot of homework. She has many parent-teacher meetings. It’s like public school system expect teachers and parents both be the teacher.
            I think the USA public school system is failing. I think if I have kid I will put her in private school.

          • Chom

            @Linette, Private school is not perfect either. If you have the chance home schooling is the way to go.

          • linette

            Why do we need to learn so much in school? So much informations like do we really remember what we’ve learned all those years we wasted our childhood? Why 7 hours of school for little kids and 1 hour of homework? Too fxcking much. In elementary school the most important subjects are really just language and math. Social studies, science, music, computer, gym etc..all those can be done 2 times a week and no more. Like who cares and who will remember those subjects anyway. I say 5 hours of school is enough. Half hour of homework is good. Little kids let them go play. Go explore.

          • Fraser

            The problem is Kukuku, that may well be deliberate. The CCP WANTS people to be dependent on undemocratic methods and behaviours. So they be teaching that way BECAUSE research shows that the things you list are the effect of it. That would be my guess anyway.

            The other far more likely reason is that they’re stuck on “old wives tales”. For example, some things which Chinese girls seems to believe are:

            -having sex during your period is bad for you,
            -having sex one week before your period is “safe”,
            -hitting your stomach after having unprotected sex stops you getting pregnant,

            I could go on. The CCP has this idea that it’s bad to teach people about sex, and yet has a one child policy. Surely teaching people about sex is a great way to encourage the use of contraception, right?

          • maja

            @ linette: I grew up in europe and in primary school I stayed in school 8 hours everyday. we studied math, language, science etc. I remember lots of creative writing, also we had workshops like carpentry and computer lab. I had lots of fun, learned language and math much better then in middle or high school (especially the basics, like phrase structure and logics) and almost every kid I was friend with, I met everyday in school. I learned so well that I practically arrived to high school without pretty much the need to work on homework again, which I did as a little kid. as someone already said, there is a lot to be learned about education.
            ah, it was a public school, free tuition. and if this seems too good, in the last years my homecountry almost forced that kind of education out of business with fundings cuts, which is an argument too long for me to talk here.

          • Fraser

            And yet Maja, you didn’t apparently learn some basic English grammar. You do realise that if you contract a word and the final letter of the contracted word is different to the original, then the contracted word must be followed by a period, or full-stop. So when you say “I learned math, language,…[sic]“, it should be “I learned math., language,…”. I’m surprised they didn’t teach you that.

          • Kukuku

            Fraser: What about quotation marks and punctuation?

            :)

          • fabulous

            Also Maja, you should have capitalized at the beginning of a number of those sentences. So when you say “we studied…[sic]“, it should be “We studied…”. I’m surprised they didn’t teach you that in your European schools. Despite what your European teachers said delivering a coherent and on-topic statement in a second language is not as important as perfect grammar and punctuation. You clearly could learn something from the Chinese education system.

          • Poltergeist

            Fraser and all other “English language correcting fascists”:

            May I ask, how many other languages you are talking, besides your native one? And are you “mistake-free”? (in them and your mother tongue)

            Anyways, no offense to you guys but I find it pretty snobbish to come up with language/grammar correcting on a webpage like chinasmack.

        • Winter B4 Spring

          woops — Correction:
          “But look at all those Falun Gong people in Chinatown and where i live. Or around the world (but only in China, seemingly?). They are one of the most peaceful lot of fellas i have seen around.

          • Winter B4 Spring

            wooops, correction: this “correction” isnt meant to be here, but somewhere above!

            and woops, bad grammar, me :P !!

          • Winter B4 Spring

            @ Fraser: Yes! Agreed! Communism has a saying, roughly translated, “Repeat the lies for a hundred times, and it becomes the truth.”

            :P

        • 平凡人

          “superman” (抄人)exisits in China.
          Many students here are like sponge, can really absorb but cannot digest. So they can recite a theory to you but you asked them to apply it, that’s another story.

      • Teacher in China

        Yep totally agreed on the homework thing. I too am an actual real teacher and have read the same things I’m sure you have. One thing I’d like to point out though is that the type of homework the kids are getting here is serving one purpose: learning how to memorize and do mind-numbingly dumb tasks; because that’s what you have to do in order to well on the two big tests. They just need to memorize and regurgitate. I guess the younger you learn that skill, the easier it becomes.

        I recently had a conversation with some new students who were about to start Grade 9 (the year of the first big test that decides which high school you can go to – very important because the good high schools are better at preparing you for the next big test to get into the good universities). These students are facing a test before they even start Grade 9. Why? The school takes the top performers and puts them in a special class to help them prepare better for the big test. I asked what I thought was a logical question: why don’t they take the worst students and put them in that class, don’t they need the extra help? The answer was a smile and a chuckle: those students don’t like to study. That whole conversation made me sad in a lot of different ways, but more than that it made me completely determined that my child (whenever I have one) will NOT be a part of this fucked up system.

        • El Puma R.

          yes.. YES !!!

          Look above, I said the same about having a child.

          • Teacher in China

            Actually I’m not sure what you said about having a child. Do you not want to have one at all? It seems like you think this generation of education style is fucked up all over the world – is that true?

        • Kukuku

          “That whole conversation made me sad in a lot of different ways”

          I wholeheartedly agree with you. Believe me when I say you are not alone feeling this way.

        • El Puma R.

          I can marry a chinese girl but there’s no way I could raise a kid in China.

          • Winter B4 Spring

            or did you mean, you could raise a child in China, but never marry a Chinese girl? :P

          • moonmickey

            That’s the bad part, your kid will end up saluting the flag of a gang every morning in the schoolyard, then they get lied to about history as your downloaded and DVD history programs will tell it all different, then they have to remember (actually brainwashing) details about the gang’s history so they can pass the Gaukou exam. Its a seriously grim and cruel thing to do to your own child.

          • Winter B4 Spring

            sigh…too true…

      • Shanghairen

        I think homework here may even be counterproductive. The kids are so tired from staying up doing their homework that they can’t concentrate in class.

    • Nilerafter24

      Everything you guys say is so true.
      I have firsthand experience.
      I’m an African student studying on scholarship in China. Well, I guess anyone who’s been in China a long time would have noticed that China has a lot of students from developing counties which China has some sort of stake or economic interest in. A lot of these students are also on scholarships.
      Now, of course, coming from a poor African country, I don’t have much choice in good universities that I can afford. So China seemed like a good option for me. I mean China is the world’s biggest economic powerhouse and such so they must be doing something right, right?

      Almost three years later, I really regret why came to China to do engineering. It’s nothing like what I expected. Of course I’m not naïve. I knew that it’d be a challenge, learning Chinese and all but that’s not the problem. The biggest problem is that 90 percent of the time I feel like I’m back in high school in Africa. Droves of homework, endless hours of monotone lectures and exam after exam. I don’t feel like I’m in a university at all. Even the university in my country has a better study environment. The students here don’t discuss or take on assignments. They just do homework, most of it copied from one another. It’s always professor says- students do. No one dares to discuss with lecturers. Power point presentation after power point presentation. No substance, no enthusiasm.
      So many of my classmates are really good at theoretical deductions but are completely nowhere when it comes to practical applications.
      Students cheat in exams and don’t even get reprimanded. Elsewhere that would be immediate discontinuation from one’s course.
      I can’t really complain too much though. In China I have access to technological facilities I can only dream of in my country. Plus, my education is paid for. I only wish the learning system was better.

      I don’t really follow class anymore. Youtube, MIT and UC Berkley Open courseware and the multitudes of other papers, guides and textbooks online have become my professors. I don’t feel my degree will carry much weight once I graduate so I’ll spend the rest of my time mainly doing self-study. I don’t plan to continue my studies here after graduation. Look to Europe or America but surely not here.
      China has the ability to have one of the best education systems in the world. If they could let the youth become free-thinkers and stop with this master-slave form of teaching, this country could be the next Japan.
      One cannot just settle in this country. I’ll never consider it. I’ve faced a lot of discrimination here. Best go back where it’s good to be black.lol

      • Beijinger in Seattle

        Hey, look, I went to one of the most renowned universities in the world in the US, and guess what? I skipped tons of my classes, and so did many of my classmates.

        Shit is the same everywhere. It’s not China that sucks, it’s LIFE and humanity in general that suck. China is just more obvious about it. The sooner you realize this the better.

        • Nilerafter24

          What does that have to do with anything I just wrote?
          I was talking about my disillusion for the Chinese Education system. For such a fast developing country, one would think the education has to be really good.
          Students everywhere skip class. That’s not the point.
          It’s the methods of teaching that’s the problem.
          I’m pretty sure that in your university you had a lot of hands on projects and assignments. Your professors discussed problems, solutions, fallacies and truisms in theories.
          It’s not the same here and you know it. That’s why you’re probably studying abroad.
          But as I said, it’s (the education system) still in in it’s own way somewhat better than where I come from so I’m grateful for that.
          I just won’t consider furthering my studies here unless things change.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            Education in general is bullshit.

            What you do once you start working has NOTHING to do with what you learn in school. The most useful skills you learn in school are the social skills.

            And truly innovative thinkers are born, not taught.

            But I definitely agree that the educational system in China is shit.

        • Getrealson

          It’s scary how dumb you are!

          • Yesway

            It’s scary how jealous you are!

            The African gentleman can study engineering in Chinese and you can’t.

          • Getrealson

            why would I want to study Engineering in Chinese? Only to go to any other civilised country and not have them recognise the diploma. I could find better ways to waste 5 years.

          • Getrealson

            Also, I was referring to “Beijinger in Seattle”

            “And truly innovative thinkers are born, not taught.”

      • Nanny Hiccups

        I don’t iknow if china’s education system is all bad. Americans must be a bunch of real dumbasses because chinese students come in and excel in school, getting good grades and other high marks So obviously chinese schools is doing something right. Chinese students in the USA are often our best and brightest. It’s become somewhat of a joke that the chinese kids work harder than americans and are smarter.

        • Teacher in China

          I think it depends on the field of study, Nanny. For sure any Chinese kid that comes in to middle or high school or university and studies math or any science course will seem way smarter than the American (or Canadian, Autralian, etc) classmates, but that’s mainly because they are usually at least one or two or even three years ahead in what they study. Does that actually make them smarter? I don’t teach those subjects, so I can’t rightly say. But what I’ve always heard is that the main problem is that Chinese students have a harder time innovating and applying knowledge. I’ve also experienced firsthand the problems Chinese students have in being creative and thinking outside the box in their writing; they have huge problems learning how to organize and write a good essay, especially one that involves using outside sources (without plagiarizing!); and they have problems working together as a group to complete a task. That all being said, my experiences with them have been very positive on the whole, and a few kids pick up on and learn how to do all those things I just mentioned pretty quickly.

          And then of course there’s your assumption that better grades and higher marks = smarter. That’s simply not always the case, and I’d bet any real teacher would tell you the same thing.

      • Teacher in China

        What I’ve always heard about Chinese university is that it’s the time to relax. students go through hell just to get there what with the two big exams to prep for in middle and high school, so i guess that’s their reward. My students are always shocked when I tell them what it takes to be successful in university in the west – studying, essays, projects, hard work. And don’t even get me started on academic dishonesty – that’s the number one problem facing Chinese students abroad, and the most important thing I tried to teach my students about. Your story about the kids cheating on exams and not getting reprimanded is unbelievable (I believe it, but…wow…..). sounds like you’re doing the right thing by getting out.

      • El Puma R.

        Dude I’m white and I face discrimination here too, and that added to confusion because over here in northeast China, people don’t seem to understand there is also white people with brown eyes and brown hair. however I feel you, man. I’ve seen how they react when they see a black person, and I must admit that if I were black I would have already been deported for beating the shit out of somebody.

        I’m TOO fucking exotic for chinese people. They want to see the blond hair and the blue eyes. Sorry about that, now do my abilities and degrees count for something?
        I have a friend who is an IELTS examiner in beijing, he’s afican american. one day he shows up from work totally pieced off. One girl didn’t took the oral test because he is black, and when they got her to take the exam, she wouldn’t speak.

        I have students who love me a lot and even their parents start insulting me in my face while saying I don’t understand what they say.
        Dude I have friends in the south part of my country (Argentina) who are sons or grandsons of German nazi officials and they aren’t half as racist as Chinese people.

  • boymojo

    When rich Chinese move into upper middle class suburban neighborhoods, the values of the homes increase. Meanwhile, the schools get really competitive. The white people complain and get freaked out and move away.

    When Chinese move into lower class neighborhoods, the moms and dads work their asses off so their kids can go to a good college. The kids usually get picked on a lot by the local non-asians.

    Back in China, everyone just sits around and waits for something to happen. They continue to uphold the status quo.

    • El Puma R.

      My dad knows the Chinese owners of a little Chinese restaurant in my hometown, they went to Argentina and started from scrap, and the other day they told him how happy they were because their daughter was about to graduate from med school. Fortunately we don’t have the racial problems North America has. Would have they been able to do the same here in China? Undoubtedly not.

      • Harland

        Yeah, South America doesn’t have racial problems. LOL! Because you don’t have black people…HAHA I can’t believe it…

        • El Puma R.

          Where I am from, no.. we don’t have such problems, and I dare you to come over and check it yourself. Unless you start saying that America helps other countries and such stuff, you will be safe from being beaten. We don’t have the KKK, white supremacists, scientologists, kardashians, and all tha bullshit you gringos believe in. We also don’t need mexicans doing the dirty jobs we don’t want to do, and we don’t call other people terrorists just because they don’t like us.

          I invite you to come, I guarantee you won’t leave.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            that’s such bullshit. I’ve been to Brazil. Racism is a huge problem in South America.

          • Dr SUN

            So tell me why the indigenous ethnic minorities of Brazil are living in Slums and doing all the shitty jobs ?

          • Alain

            Isn’t gringo a racist term?

            Just kind of disproving what you are trying to prove there mate!

          • ZlsetrdX

            C’mon, that’s utter bullshit. How come there are very few blacks left in Argentina, despite the fact that Buenos Aires was a major slave port back in colonial times. Where did all the blacks go? I mean, the ones who didn’t die in the yellow fever outbreak and the Argentinian wars. Don’t you find that unsettlingly suspicious in a country where there are no such problems?

          • Poltergeist

            El Puma,

            I haven’t been to Argentina before. My brother has lived there for a year. I also have an Argentinian friend that told me a lot about Argentina. That you can’t find racism seems to be as ignorant as saying that the US, Europe, China, Japan or Australia are full of racists.

            After all, I think I can remember that a lot of former Nazis immigrated to Argentina after WW2 and they did quite well with their restart? Do you think they left their believes behind?
            Also, if I remember correctly, Argentinians don’t like guys from Peru/Brazil that much and vice versa.

            Racism is everywhere. It just has a lot of different faces (the irony). If you ask me, the most tolerant people can be found in the Netherlands, US, WESTERN Germany, France and the bigger cities of Australia. In that order.

            And eventhough I am not a huge fan of the US, don’t forget that the US are the most tolerant Nation in the world. So tolerant, that they even allow idiots like KKK, white supremacists, scientologists and all those idiotic religious groups live and let them publicly say their opinions.
            If it was up to me, KKK and the sort would all be shut down longtime ago. How ignorant I am…lol

        • Nanny Hiccups

          Urrr, I guess you never heard of Dominicans, an entire south american country of spanish speaking blacks. I am of black and some latin heritage so there you go. talking to one right now. brazil is FULL of black and dark people.

          • El Puma R.

            I’m not brazilian, and Brazil is not Argentina. I could say Canada has a lot of violence problems, but no.. that’s the US, right ? It’s not fucking Canada!

            @Beijinger in Seattle. No, just because you went to ONe city in ONE country doesn’t mean you know everything about a whole continent. You haven’t seen shit bro. And I NEVER EVER trust a chinese person saying he know something about something. 1.- I’ve never seen so many liars as I’ve seen in China. 2- Most Chinese people are short sighted and they have such ease when it comes to talk about something they don’t know about. 3- Seems the people with the countries with biggest racist problems are the first ones pointing the finger afterwards.
            Chinese people are racist with their OWN race! what could stop them from being racist with others?

            @Nanny hiccups
            You cannot talk about a country because you know another country, doesn’t make any sense.

            @Alain
            Where I am from, “gringo” is not a racist term. It is usually to refer to ANYONE with blond hair and white skin. And they seem to be alright with it.

            @Poltergeist

            As I was saying above, I’ve friends in south Argentina who are either sons or grandsons of German Nazi officials, and they aren’t as half racist as chinese people. Argentinian girls go crazy for brazilian guys and viceversa. Nothing against peruvians, whatsoever. Except in Buenos aires where they do all the dirty jobs the white people don’t want to do, exactly like the US and mexico. But you can’t say the whole country is racist because a few people in the capital, right ?

            I’m quite tired of “american” and chinese people putting us south americans in the same bag “you are all the same”. bullshit. I can’t blame you though.. so I say.. come to Argentina and see it for yourself. We don’t have that xenophobic drive Chinese people have, and we definitely don’t have all the prejudices US people have “oh, you said the G or the N or the C word”… unlike China… WE MAKE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE STAYING !!!!! Our racism problems are rather historical or political (i.e. the govermments not giving a single fuck about the remaining native tribes who, btw, don’t want to be a part of modern society). Not actual, and if there are problems, they’re very isolated, and normally broadcasted on tv. Any racist comment can get your ass kicked anytime so you gotta watch out. If I have a black friend and you call him a nigger, I would definitely kick your ass too.

            Let me tell you again, go to my country for a couple of months and you won’t leave. Even more if you’re black, the chicks won’t leave you alone for a single second.

            You can say whatever you want about a place you haven’t been to. but I know where I am from and I’ve been to your countries too, so I guess I could see the difference.

        • El Puma R.

          Well at least we make our chinese and other foreign friends feel like home, and allow them to afford an education for themselves, and their children. What do you have to say about that?

          • Alain

            Where I am from, “gringo” is not a racist term. It is usually to refer to ANYONE with blond hair and white skin. And they seem to be alright with it.

            Can’t agree, chinese will giggle and laugh and tell you that we are being silly when we don’t like being called gwei lo or lao wai, when we know it is rude when it is used, and they think we don’t understand the meaning of it.

            If someone where “you” comes from used that around me either knowingly or unknowingly and thought that I didn’t understand the meaning of it, I would smash you in the face. Racism is racism, and just because someone looks a fresh faced american or bright eyed englishman does not cut it. Imagine if we called all argentinians , diego, is that not a racist slur too?

          • El Puma R.

            you can call me Diego… or Leo Messi, Simon Bolivar, Jose de san Martin, etc. no worries, I can all you JFK, or Benji Franklin. If my terminology offended you at any level, I truly apologize. And Calling me Diego would be more stereotypical than racist. Though I’d prefer it instead of you calling me “burritos” or “Falafel”.. that might get me on my nerve. lol to everything I said.

          • Albert Cribbins (aka Alain)

            If my terminology offended you at any level, I truly apologize. And Calling me Diego would be more stereotypical than racist. Though I’d prefer it instead of you calling me “burritos” or “Falafel”.. that might get me on my nerve. lol to everything I said.

            It’s alright mate, you didn’t offend me. Maybe I am just a little sensitive, and I like to mix up the swamp a little. As I said to Linette, all this mental thinking, and virtual sparring will keep you young, no harm in getting the blood boiling a little and the neurons firing.

            [Note from chinaSMACK Moderator: Please do not use multiple names.]

          • Nibiru

            @ El Puma R OK, Latin-American brunet guy, you blatantly seemed to resort to personal attack to a Chinese who had told the truth. You’re one of the racists

          • Nibiru

            @El Puma R. : go and look up any English dictionary you can find, “gringo” is defined as a pejorative term to Anglowhites. You racist

          • El Puma R.

            @Nibiru

            what a crybaby !

      • boymojo

        @El Puma
        How would you feel if all of the Chinese in Argentina began to control 80-90% of the wealth in the country? What does it mean if the government deliberately creates policies that only keeps the wealth in the hands of the elite that tended to be descendents of a particular ethnicity?

        Just because you don’t see race problems in Argentina, doesn’t mean that there are no racial problems. Just because one Chinese Argentinian somehow “makes it” doesn’t mean there are no racial problems there. Do you know how many Chinese Argentinians left Argentina? Do you know why?

        Even though America has racial tensions, at least people can talk about them honestly and have the right to voice opinions. This allows people to deal with the problems instead of harmonize the situation and cover things up. People can actually make changes in their communities and effect the decisions of leadership.

        China has a lot of problems for a lot of different reasons. When people are used to a certain way of life for such a long time, it’s difficult to see solutions to their own problems. That doesn’t mean I can just assume that Chinese people can never change. In every part of the world, there will be people that will challenge the status quo. The leadership in China is actually very aware of this. Why do you think they are so afraid of people formally gathering in public places? Why do you think they pay so much attention to the things that people are saying on the Internet? Living in a foreign country will cause the chemicals in your brain to change. It will even mess with your head. In places like China, it’s only easy to feel empowered.

        • El Puma R.

          @boymojo

          You mean like China has the US drawn to death in debt?
          It happens in all countries, mate. No government is good and it looks like you are depending on them to solve your shit. They’ll never ever do it, not even for you.

          Argentina and Brazil are used as second choice countries for chinese in case they can’t get a visa for the US.
          In our countries we have as much freedom of speech as in the US or Canada… Seems like you only see what you want to see. I never said there aren’t racist problems in other countries.
          You seem to know a lot, but have you been to south America? do you live in China? Speak facts man, not just thoughts.
          People can say this world is damaged but, do they do anything about it ? Do you do anything about it ?
          you see, boymojo I have questions too, but I’m not expecting governments to care about me, nor anyone. They want to keep us selfish, narcissist, egocentric and afraid, so then we can take the piss out of each other on the internet, or at our own homes. Governments are afraid of us REALIZING we can be free without them, we don’t need them. That’s why they’re so afraid, even more afraid than we are. The problem is we are stupid enough to believe they have more power than us. So people leave instead of staying and solving their shit. The big difference is , at least in Argentina we don’t have neighborhoods separated by race, even if you go to the ghetto you might get robbed by the whitest dude you could see. Any foreigner is welcome, and we don’t need to build walls to keep the people that make the drugs for us away from our country. The big dilemma about the US government is, everybody hates them (I said government, twice) because they do every bad thing they could yet they dare to blame others for the bad things that happen in this world, ane even worse, make their people believe their bullshit! (sigh). And the big dilemma about China is, human rights are earned only by those who have money.
          If you don’t like it, do something about it. I do it, in my own way.
          Why do foreigners leave china? there are so many reasons… mine, for example, are the selfishness and the narcissist materialism I see everyday. My actions against it are quite minimal but very effective. I hate to see how dependent on their phones people is, and how much a big part of their lives goes away texting and speaking nonsense on the phone. And how dependent they are on material things… so I thought, I’m not leaving yet, so let’s have some fun!

          I tried to put an EMP bomb together in order to permanently disable electronic components in a 10-meter radius. but the circuits are hard to find and I don’t have all the tools I need. ( I don’t care if they spent one million dollars in a phone, fuck them for being so stupid, I hope they realize it wasn’t worth it)

          so I bought a 2W cell phone signal /wifi /3G jammer with a ratio of 10 meters and I turn it on at school before I start my class just to see how stupidly dependent of their iphones some of my students (eight out of 10 for sure) are. As long as this beautiful piece of technology is powered on, they go fucking nuts in class because their phones have no CDMA/GSM/3G/Wifi signal and they can’t text or use qq nor weixin. They get signal again when I turn it off, or if they go more than 10 meters away from the jammer. It’s probably the best thing I’ve bought since my xbox 360. I also use it on the bus/subway/train/restaurants and it’s hillarious to see how fragile and useless they are when they can’t use their phones. Man I love having fun when I go out.

          You can call me crazy, whatever man, I’ve realized I can’t talk any sense into kids who only think about texting and they are getting ready to go abroad without the slightest sense of the meaning of living a real life is…they simply don’t give a fuck about anything, and I’m gonna fight their stupidity and selfishness in any way I can until the day I leave. It really pisses me off to see how dependent they are on things that mean nothing, I was fairly happier back in the day, when we didn’t need all this useless shit. Until today, my students don’t know I have a signal jammer in my backpack and they keep blaming the phone companies, or their phones. Anyway, some of them actually took the time to pay attention in class. Mission accomplished.

          (you might ask, what if they have an emergency and they need their phones? well in that case, I might be able to see it, and turn off my jammer. I speak Chinese so I should know. Either way, the chances for these kids to have an emergency are less than 000.01%, and the chances of them wasting their lives on the phone are 99999999,99%, andoutside the school I don’t use it that much, unless some phony bothers me while I’m trying to relax)

          Yes, I feel very empowered indeed, When I was a kid I was told I was gonna be the generation that would change this world, blablabla, etc. And then, twenty years later, I find myself working for a douchebag boss and waiting for my next pay.. it really pissed me off, I believed all those lies they told me. So I’m taking action… And I love counter-technology (it’s legal in China!) you see, boymojo, internet is much more fun and educational when you don’t use facebook.

          dependence at a mature age is certain brain death and a terrible loss of the soul. Believe me. Delete your facebook and you’ll see who your real friends are, buy a signal jammer like the one I have, go out and piss people off, turn off the radio and the TV, tell your boss to go fuck himself/herself, get in a fight and lose, or win until you lose. Go bully them and see how afraid they are of defending themselves, how little self respect they have. They are all dependent fragile autistic pussies who have no purpose in life. Hitler was probably one of the most evil persons of the 20th century, but at least he had a purpose and he carried on with it. What’s your purpose in life? My purpose is to make people see they can be free, and I will free as many minds as I can, even if it is by pissing them off… And if I don’t die for it, once I’m done with it I’ll find another purpose.

          You see, a kid cries because they took his binky (pacifier) away from him but a few months later, if you give him one, the child won’t want it, nor need it.

          I have needs and right just like you do. Find your purpose Boymojo and it will make you feel enormously empowered and alive. If you already found it, good for you.
          Live your life man!

          “Anyone who gives away his freedom in exchange for security does not deserve neither freedom, nor security” – Benjamin Franklin.

          http://www.alljammers.com
          http://www.dealextreme.com
          http://www.1933key.com

          • seeker71

            @ El Puma: legendary…and you passed by Shenzhen, I wish we crossed path!

    • moonmickey

      “The kids usually get picked on a lot by the local non-asians. ” then the kids picking on them are very smart because Chinese pick on foreign kids as a national pastime.

      • El Puma R.

        Chinese pick on foreigners as a national pastime, period.

  • Qi

    As an international student who studied in the UK and Australia for more than 5 years, I honestly want to go back home after studies, I would give it a try to make contributions, to support, to make difference and to help the society become better. however, people all have different views and different thoughts in different age levels, so just do want you want to do and what you think it’s right, there is no need to complain or get upset.

    • donnachadh

      ‘however, people all have different views and different thoughts in different age levels, so just do want you want to do and what you think it’s right, there is no need to complain or get upset.’

      I don’t know what you learned in the UK and Australia, but you seem to have missed the oportunity to figure out that nothing aids the progress of knowledge and freedom better than open debate between people with different points of view.

      Avoiding expressing your opinions through respect (or fear) of authority (or because of an obsession with giving other people, or mantaining your own, ‘face’) is one of the main reasons for the lack of inovation in certain societies (including China).

      On top of retarding innovation, a lack of debate does not lead to ‘harmony’ (as some would have us believe). It leads to a society unable to reason, and a society in which those in power can be confident that no one has the courage, or intellectual resources, to challenge their position, no matter how much they abiuse this position.

      • maja

        making assumptions is not the most attractive way of debating something. and I honestly don’t see MANY point of view on this page.

        • donnachadh

          Nothing’s stopping you from adding your point of view, or pointing out how someone else’s assumptions are flawed.

      • Winter B4 Spring

        …and a little further down the road, the people will start overturning public officials’ cars, cordon off roads from authorities, making appeals at Zhongnanhai Beijing, and applying asylum statuses in other countries, all to demand justice for injustices done. Double Sigh*

    • b. prichard

      You express a good sentiment. But the predominant problems in China are social/political, rather than economic right now. I don’t want to put too fine a point on that, since income inequality is a serious problem that is a mix of all three. But just adding economically is only going to exacerbate China’s problems.

      • Beijinger in Seattle

        Where did this person say he/she only wants to contribute economically?

        Some of you seem really dumb and bitter.

  • ChinaMan

    The grass is always greener on the other side.
    This is human nature.
    People always think the 1st world countries are better than their home country.

    But sooner or later, you will realise that HOME is the best place to be!! Your Root, Your Origin.!!

    But I dont deny that, for your kids future, it is better to send them abroad for studies and building their social life. To each own.

  • Fraser

    The biggest issue I’ve found is that people simply aren’t taught how to behave in a civilised way. Just yesterday I was walking home and saw a little girl taking a shit right in the middle of the street. I mean literally the middle of the street. Not only that, they were about a 1 minute walk away from public toilets (there is a KFC less than 100 metres away from where I saw this).

    This is a common site in China. I mean who needs nappies, or to teach their children how to be toilet trained right? The other thing is just the complete lack of respect people seem to have for each other. It doesn’t surprise me one bit that people want to leave, particularly foreigners.

    • Chom

      Because people learn from the example of government officials..you have to cheat to get ahead. So they don’t have time for other people.

      • El Puma R.

        Are you excusing others for doing the wrong thing? There are no excuses mate.

        • Chom

          Not excusing them, just an explanation. We should blame the people at the top. It is much more understandable why people at the lower levels of society act the way they do. In fact, I would go as far as to say that despite many people’s uncivilized behaviour, all other things being equal, the lower classes in China are much more civilized that the so-called upper-class.

          Despite what they think, an expensive car and a 小三, does not make someone, somehow ‘above’ everyone else. A 50 year old man in a village who never went to high school has more class than that.

          • El Puma R.

            Like my gf’s grandpa. Farmer who went to uni and made it as a doctor. Probably one of the last generations of the real China. And what you say is right. I love going to the countryside in China.

          • The Enlightened One

            He is right in the fact that rural Chinese are usually more friendly, but it’s in a way that is hard to explain.

            You aren’t quite sure if it is genuine or if it is because they fear reprisal of losing face for being rude. Which is similar to western society I suppose, so in that regard, they are more civilized than the government officials… who don’t give a shit about anyone.

        • Winter B4 Spring

          i think Chom meant, that the people learn from the examples of communist party officials –> taking a shit right in the middle of the street, in broad daylight, 1 minute walk away from KFC, and that the communist officials do not need nappies. Then, without shame, the communist officials expect the Chinese people to thank them for shitting in the middle of the road. Anyone who don’t thank them enough will be branded as “Anti-China”. :P Also, the Chinese people then will have to clean the shit after the officials.

    • Xero

      I saw the same thing in carrefour. Little girl squatting down in the middle of the fruit section, encouraged by her mother.

      • Winter B4 Spring

        WHAT?? That’s gross!! =.=

      • bbqrooster

        and if you criticize the behavior there, you will be scolded. How can you be so horrible to a little kid?

  • Jeff

    One thing the Chinese fail to grasp is that if a Chinese goes to the USA (legally) he or she can open a business very easily. Often in a matter of days. In China it could be never if you don’t grease the palm of the correct persons and depending on the direction of the wind.

    China makes it very difficult for most people to come into their country and set up a business.

    • Winter B4 Spring

      A foreigner could, but might end up poisoned like Neil Heywood.

  • Chom

    I can understand why people are leaving. Also for foreigners, China is not their home, so it is understandable.

    However for those Chinese that are leaving or are thinking of leaving, don’t they have any wish to make China better? For example, they are leaving because of the education system, but what makes them think the U.S, western Europe have perfect education systems. Those countries also have major issues (esp the U.S) So instead of just bailing out, why not stay in China and CHANGE things and make their own system better?

    • El Puma R.

      Because they’re dependent, uneducated and afraid. Extremely dependent.

      To be uneducated isn’t their fault, but dependent and afraid, it is. and it’s an educational problem.

    • Kukuku

      To change things you need to have some power. In China you don’t have any power as an individual. The only way to change things would be a massive grassroot movement, but good luck with that in China. Never going to happen, especially in education.

      • Chom

        “The only way to change things would be a massive grassroot movement, but good luck with that in China.”

        Do you think the fact that people don’t care about/don’t trust each other is just a by-product of the way China is developing or do you think the government has purposefully used social-engineering to create that mistrust, and therefore reduce the chances of people organizing?

        • Kukuku

          I think we are faced with a vicious self-perpetuating circle of fail.

          People don’t trust one another, the government uses this to its advantage and fosters this -> people don’t trust one another… (repeat)

          • Chom

            In our apartment building, there are 4 apartments on each floor. We rarely see our neighbours and when we do, not many words more than “ni hao” are exchanged. When everyone is at home they just keep the metal green door and the inside door closed.

            A few weeks ago while we were cooking dinner my gf decided to try an experiment. She opened both doors. 15 mins later when another family came back, they also left their doors open. Before we knew it, their 5 year old boy ran into our apartment, followed by his mother and we chatted for a while. Maybe its small things that will increase people’s trust in each other.

          • Northerner

            Our apartment is on the 55th floor (Hong Kong) which by my calculations is 200 metres give or take and the neighbours have metal grills on the windows.

            What are they afraid of?

            Vampires?

          • Winter B4 Spring

            @ Northerner: Yes! In Chinese legends, vampires are the blood sucking jumping monsters. LOL. And communists.

          • Dr SUN

            you got it

      • chinitaloca

        Also many chinese are afraid of facing the truth, that or they just dont give a fuck about it. The other day my friends were complaining in a restaurant about the charges of your tableware(bowl, chopsticks…etc). The law indicates in consumer rights that you arent supposed to charge these. They even called the police and even they didnt care a shit and tried to tell chinese customers in the restaurant that its wrong(showing evidence and everything) but they just sat there staring like you were crazy or sth. That day no one gave a fck.

    • Qi

      I agree with you Chom. bad things happen in every countries, I have been to many western counties and Asia counties, my own experience tells me that where is your home there will always be. no one is prefect, China is learning, needs changing, so does every country. at least China and other Asia counties are friendly to visitors from different counties than some western counties. If this count, being friendly and welcome but swearing and abusive is also an education problem.

    • tai wai

      Also for foreigners, China is not their home, so it is understandable.

      http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-youll-never-be-chinese-leaving-china/

      It was his home for over 16 years.

      That doesn’t count?

      • Chom

        Not really. It will never be his homeland.

        • tai wai

          Home is where you hang your hat. Where your heart is.

          Not where you were born.

        • The Enlightened One

          Ah, you see. This kind of thinking if why foreigners will never be accepted as “insiders” or possibly ever “Chinese”.

          This is not our homeland and thus, we do not belong.

          Case closed.

        • hess

          You better start calling for the millions and millions of ethnic chinese that lives in other countries to “go home”

          • Chom

            Did you actually read my post or do you just like to troll? I didn’t say foreigners should leave China.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            They get told that regularly in various ways, don’t worry

    • Jahar

      The way it appears to me, is that the people here are taught(by society) that they can’t change anything. They are also taught not to trust anyone other than your family.

      Also, to get a high enough position within the government to actually affect change, you have to be corrupt. So to get the power to change things for the better, you have to want things to be bad.

      There is also a great selfishness here. There will be no martyrs. No one is willing to risk losing what they have to help others. They would rather jump ship, as the article states. They say they love their country, but not in the right way.

      • Chom

        Definitely people don’t think they can change anything, they would say: “those are political things, I am just normal person”

    • moonmickey

      There is no way of “making China better” for individual Chinese people, its a fallacy. Look what happened following the Sichuan earthquake when people tried to “make China better” by donating money, huge posters appeared in some areas listing the names and addresses of residents and how much they had (or hadn’t at all) donated for relief. Officials went out and bought luxury cars with the money and were caught selling donated food and clothes. They hid corpses following a rail disaster and don’t care who gets hurt as long as they personally benefit.

    • jeff dolan

      The decent Chinese who can afford it are leaving becuase of the idiot public officials whose lives are drwoning in baijou. They’re leaving because they’d prefr a life of intellectual curiosity and freedom to innane rambling conversations about ipods. Thyey’re leaving becuase the comminist partty is too damn stupid to see beyond its own nose!

    • Winter B4 Spring

      They cant speak out against the party. Or they could, but get thrown into jail, or labour camps, or brainwashing classes, if they speak against the party. Or they could join the party to seek change, but gets pulled along into the downward spiral of corruption. Catch 22
      o.O

    • Beijinger

      It’s not about finding a perfect alternative, but finding someplace better. People are ultimately self-serving. Unfortunately there is not much one can do to change things, especially in an undemocratic society.

      • Beijinger in Seattle

        I think you are vastly overestimating how much power the common person has in a democracy.

        The fact is, the top 1% of people control everything and run shit. The life of the common person is shit comparatively. This is true in the US, this is true in China, and everywhere else.

  • tai wai

    Hey, I posted comments on that prospect article!

    Does that make me, like, important, by proxy?

    The comments there are, of course, of a higher quality than the ones here.

    • Kukuku

      What?

      • Winter B4 Spring

        LOL

  • ChinaMan

    Some said and forecast better changes to Chinese society in the next 50 years, at least. To educate and change their mentality.

    We cant blame the Chinese. It is in their blood, their nature; they are always self centred and watch their own back. Thereon, they become selfish and only think about themselves.’

    A good example is the OLympic game. Look at the events that the chinese won. All individuals and minimal team event.
    They skillful, smart, technical; but only one man gang.

    Nowaday, the chinese are no longer fighting for each other, they are fighting against each other.

    Chinese need to start to cooperate and trust each other.
    MAybe another War will help them to stand up as one.

    On the other hand, China are more than happy to let the foreigner go home and stop being a parasite.

    • Chom

      “MAybe another War will help them to stand up as one.”

      I don’t think so. I presume you mean a war with a foreign country, like U.S, right? Yes, that will bring people together but it will play into the governments hands. People will channel their anger outward, the government will control the people even more in the name of security and people will ignore the problems inside China.

    • Getrealson

      You are an absolute fool! It’s your way of thinking that keeps China down. Go post on weibo troll!

  • ChinaMan

    Some said and forecast better changes to Chinese society in the next 50 years, at least. To educate and change their mentality.

    We cant blame the Chinese. It is in their blood, their nature; they are always self centred and watch their own back. Thereon, they become selfish and only think about themselves.’

    A good example is the OLympic game. Look at the events that the chinese won. All individuals and minimal team event.
    They skillful, smart, technical; but only one man gang.

    Nowaday, the chinese are no longer fighting for each other, they are fighting against each other.

    Chinese need to start to cooperate and trust each other.
    MAybe another War will help them to stand up as one.

    On the other hand, China are more than happy to let the foreigner go home and stop being a parasite.

    Long live chairman MAO

    • Middle Kingdum

      China CCTV propagandist Yang Rui sure is more than happy to send his daughter to a university education in America.

      • Alain

        And he loves his english camel hair jackets and flat caps, in a london gangster boss style.

        Didn’t he also study in Wales? Photos of him enjoying a pipe and coffee on his weibo? How classicaly chinese….not!

        • tai wai

          Yang Rui said he wanted to get rid of foreign trash.

          You know, poor foreigners. Ones that aren’t as rich as him.

          • Albert Cribbins (aka Alain)

            No I don’t know!

            Whatever you are trying to imply, I say you are a troublemaker and are divisive.

            Now then young lad, wot sayeth thee?

            [Note from chinaSMACK Moderator: Please do not use multiple names.]

  • wafflestomp

    I’m happy for this foreigners kids, now they have a chance at a real life with a real education in a real country. Good for them.

    • Beijinger in Seattle

      Sorry buddy, life is life is life. There is nothing more “real” or sacred about a life in America or whatever.

      There is a reason why Asian Americans, and Americans in general have some of the highest suicide rates in the world.

      • Brett Hunan
        • tai wai

          LOL.

          For those too lazy to click, USA is #41.

          South Korea is #2, Japan #7, China #9.

        • Beijinger in Seattle
          • tai wai

            Huh.

            http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html

            The Asian/Pacific Islanders had the lowest suicide rates among males while the Non-Hispanic Blacks had the lowest suicide rate among females.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            “The Asian/Pacific Islanders had the lowest suicide rates among males while the Non-Hispanic Blacks had the lowest suicide rate among females.”

            Asian American men as a group are some of the biggest self selected pussies you will meet anywhere. These are people who chose to stay in a country that’s overtly racist against them since its founding, and constantly emasculates them in mass media and other things. These men don’t even have the balls to suicide.

        • Chom

          That”s interesting, South Korea number 2, Japan number 7, China number 9. What conclusions can we draw from that? If tomorrow China became a democracy, people’s lives wouldn’t necessarily improve.

        • Beijinger in Seattle

          And given that the US is the richest country in the world and the sole superpower, why isn’t it dead bottom on the list, but in the top half?

          hint: because life for 99% of the people, the average person, sucks ass everywhere, including America.

          • tai wai

            The US isn’t the top of the list in just about any quality of life measurement.

            They rank just slightly higher than China or Mexico WRT income inequality, as one example.

            Not really news.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            @tai wai

            sure. the implication of the guy i was responding to was that somehow life in America (or some other Western country) is universally better. It’s simply untrue. Life sucks anywhere for the vast majority of people, just in slightly different ways.

          • Brett Hunan

            Your view of economic status and suicide rate as hand-in-hand is inherently wrong. This having been said, suicide rates have absolutely no grounds in deciding which country is “better”, which is what you were trying to argue in your first reply.

            Wafflestomp wasn’t talking about people’s mental health state, so much as he was comparing the quality of life and education in the West with China. It’s not even debatable that education in the west is still decades ahead of China. Don’t get me wrong, I admire some aspects of Asian schooling. Discipline is lacking in the Western youth, regarding their studies. Asians are known to be more diligent and it shows when they move abroad and their work ethic is compared with Westerners.

            Regarding this particular sentence, “I’m happy for this foreigners kids, now they have a chance at a real life with a real education in a real country.”, I believe Wafflestomp was comparing how the children would be treated in the West, as opposed to in China. I think it should be obvious that Chinese still, and will continue to, see half-Chinese children as “foreigners”. Whereas in the UK, where they now live, they will be considered “British”. In the West, it will be easier to get into a university. Not to mention, any university in the UK or America would be considered better than any equivalent Chinese university.

            My Wiki URL was just to correct what you wrote about suicide rates in America. Maybe you meant “There is a reason why Asian Americans, and Asians in general…”.

            Could it possibly be that while Asian-Americans may have lived in America for generations, they still hold many cultural aspects from their Asian heritage? Perhaps the pressure to conform and Asian people’s general inability to accept shame carried over into their American lives? I don’t know the answer, but there could be a correlation between Asians in Asia having high suicide rates and Asian-Americans having high suicide rates. I doubt that Asians have a genetic tendency to commit suicide more than other races. I wouldn’t be surprised if my “culture theory” is playing out.

          • Getrealson

            Your statistics really suck!

          • Jahar

            Thank god I’m part of that 1%. I love my life. It’s sure as hell better than the alternative. there’s no booze and women there.

          • matt

            @Beijinger in Seattle. You got seriously owned but props to you. You went from arguing “Americans have some of the highest suicide rates in the world” to “why isn’t America dead bottom on the list” like it was nothing.

          • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

            Good thing I AM THE 1%

          • BigCAD

            Luckily we have Foxconn helping to lower the overall suicide rates in China.

            1.5 per 100,000 suicide rate within the grounds of Foxconn.

            3.11 per 100,000 suicide rate outside of Foxconn.

            Personally I think the recent spate of deaths at Foxconn was mom and pop Chang whispering down the phone to their kids to off ‘emselves, “Apple has deep pockets, make your parents proud”.

      • The Enlightened One

        Can you say “OWNED”?

        I bet you can!

  • Beijinger in Seattle

    其实很简单,是围城。我认识很多在美国混得不错的华人,也很厌倦这里的生活,也有不少回中国工作的。

    It’s the grass is always greener syndrome. I know plenty of Americans, Asian or otherwise, who want to move to Asia.

    • mr. wiener

      I think the grass would definitely be greener in Seatle. Just don’t Bogert that doobie bro, puff, puff, pass :)

      • mr. wiener

        Seattle… sorry, too much to smoke.

        • Winter B4 Spring

          Haha. NO! its greener in New Zealand!

  • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

    Though this expat’s situation is different than my own, his reason for leaving is pretty much mine. No matter how long we’re here, foreigners just don’t belong. At any time, for any reason, everything we’ve done here in China can be taken from us and there’s no one to take responsibility.

    I had a friend here start an English school and eventually got kicked out by his Chinese business partner.

    Could the same thing happen if you started a family?

    Or to your bank account?

    I think any foreigner living in China must do so with the thought in the back of their mind – would I be OK if tomorrow everything I have here was taken from me?

    • Beijinger in Seattle

      Hey, guess what? Asian people in America (and anywhere in the Anglosphere and Europe) also have the same issue. We are viewed as “perpetual foreigners”, no matter how long we have been living there.

      So cry me a fucking river.

      • Brett Hunan

        What are you talking about?

        • Beijinger in Seattle
          • tai wai

            While Asian-Americans make up 5 percent of the U.S. population, the report found only 2.6 percent were primetime TV regulars.

            How shocking. Shows for white people mostly have white people in them, and in the past, white people didn’t think immigrants could assimilate.

            Damning evidence.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            “How shocking. Shows for white people mostly have white people in them, and in the past, white people didn’t think immigrants could assimilate.”

            you are fucking retarded. the lack of visibility and representation in mass media, amongst other things, is very concrete evidence for the lack of social status for Asians in America, and that they are essentially second class citizens.

          • Harland

            You’ve convinced me! Two wrongs make a right. And for evidence, there’s nothing like the idiots that make TV shows! Conclusive and irrefutable.

          • sonny

            @beijinger in seattle: i really don’t think the perpetual foreigner argument holds water here. i can’t think of any examples where a predatory state firm tried to a put tax-paying chinese company out of business in recent years.

            i understand there are tasteless jokes and stereotypes, but “second class citizen” is a huge overstatement — at least for asians in present day america. access to schools, business rights, and protection under the law are all non-issues.

      • tai wai

        Wat.

        My best friends were foreign born. They were as American as apple pie. Or, kimchi pie.

        … Maybe guinea pig pie.

      • Dr SUN

        Living in enclaves and talking solely in Cantonese, Fujianese, etc probably doesn’t help you integrate that well.
        Even if you have citizenship

        • Winter B4 Spring

          i love a Chinese restaurant around hanging those pork and chicken and duck. Mmmmmm. Cant do without them. They mostly speak Cantonese. But lately, some restaurants with very different types of old-school Southern Chinese dishes are opening, and they speak Shanghainese, Mandarin, etc.

          • Winter B4 Spring

            sorry i meant “Northern”…not “Southern”…argh…typos

      • kodi

        So I’m sure people whisper “Look that Asian” whenever you walk into the vicinity. When you ask for something they yell, “Hey the Asian guy wants such and such!” or whenever you go shopping they always charge you 60% more than they charge, people they see as ordinary, Americans? How about when you find a girlfriend in America? Do guys always blame you for stealing our American women? Do you have to check with hotels to make sure that people of Asian ethnicity are allowed to stay there? What about when you rent an apartment I’m sure they have posters outside stating that foreigners are not allowed to rent there, or do you have to check with the local police station to view the map of where people of “your kind” are allowed to stay?

        C’mon buddy, we know that Americans can be from anywhere on Earth much like UK citizens. I hardly believe that you are a perpetual foreigner in America. Perhaps some uneducated or racist individuals consider you to be, but it is not a general consensus as it is in China! So you should not feel like that simply because a few idiots said so, however in China the feeling is pushed daily and in every public space. Its sort of like being black in America during the 50′s…………………….

        • tai wai

          +1

        • Capt. WED

          Really? You guys keep on talking about a few. What does a few mean? 30%? 20%? With 30% that are casually racist towards Asians then one would definitely feel it.

          http://osuhaters.tumblr.com/

          Of course some people would think/whisper “look at that Asian”. You think it’s a few, while it’s probably 30% of the population.

          Do people think one is stealing “your” women. Yellow peril has been a recurring theme. So yes, definitely a portion of the population think stealing your woman. it’s definitely not just a few. Most of time you guys instead of saying stealing Asian women you twist that into we’re stealing your women…HAHA. Because Asian guys have small dicks, are woman-abusers, etc. Not a few think this, a portion of the population think this.

          Rest of your argument is basically “every man think their burden is the heaviest.”

          Perpetual foreigner is not something a few Chinaman came up with

          http://lightskinnededgirl.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/10/being-white-is-being-more-american.html

          Again you argue but that’s just a few!!! A few!!! Yet you have 30% of the population who think Obama is a mulism. LOL. Explain that. If they think that about someone like Obama, it’s not hard to imagine they would think Asians as perpetual foreigners. You argue a few. A few means 30%. You feel it. It’s not just a simple matter of people calling you a chink. It’s the casual racism. But I don’t hate you for this. Because I frankly think it’s human nature. I say if you don’t like go fucking home, faggot.

          Fact: America is a developed country; people around the world wants to immigrate there AND NOT to some shit hole called China. Unless they’re paid handsomely sane people would not go “backwards” by moving from a developed country to a developing country. Fact: China is an authoritarian regime with an insane population. Fact: China only recently opened up. This means you simply cannot fairly & directly compare the two countries in terms of openess, multiculturalism, and all that shit you guys repping.

          To summarize: it’s “relatively multicultural” or it’s Racist, doesn’t not mean multicultural and not racist.

          Lastly @Elizabeth WTF I’ve stated numerous time that China sucks, Chinese sucks. No Wumao would say something like that.

          • Capt. WED

            The stories I’ve heard doing business in US does involve varying degree of nepotism and kickbacks. Well US is not perfect it is however considered a developed country, unlike China. China is backwards both culturally and otherwise. Many indexes point this out.

          • elizabeth

            I am sorry, Capt. Got what you meant now. So, we are both not wumao. How nice!

        • elizabeth

          “…you have to check with the local police station to view the map of where people of “your kind” are allowed to stay?”

          Wow, is that why foreigners have to register their addresses with the police station within weeks of arrival?

        • LeBateauPolice

          Well, I agree with the problem of hotels, I simply hate the fact, that the average hotel chains (7 Days Inn, Home Inn, Green Forest etc.) have that many restrictions regarding foreigners. Usually just a few percentage of hotels in a City will accept foreigners.

          On the other side I can’t agree with you about the problems renting an apartment. I never heard that people went to the police station to ask where they can stay. On the opposite it was very easy for me to find an apartment, because landlords prefer me over Chinese (they say my suzhi is high). And registrate at the Police station, that’s not a big act I guess. In most European countries you will have to do that aswell.
          Only critique point: The tax for foreigners who live in China. Just because I live there I have to pay 2500RMB tax per year. That’s Chuzpe!

      • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

        If tomorrow my boss said, “you’re fired, and i’m going to take all your money”, I would have to pack my bags and leave, and there would be nowhere to turn.

        If you own a business or house in China and tomorrow the government says, “We’re tearing down this area” – do you really have any say?

        If you get into a car accident with irrefutable camera evidence that it was the other guys fault but he has guanxi with the right people, do you really think you can fight it?

        Living in China is great for a while – it’s a wild ride. But for long term investment of time, energy, money, and emotion – it’s a huge risk. Many people live here for a decades and nothing happens. But the point is that it can.

        Not the same in the US. Take any situation I named above happening to an Asian in the US, and tell me you wouldn’t be treated fairly…like any other American.

      • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

        Also, being a ‘perpetual foreigner’ because one is a second generation Asian American that can’t speak English or lives in a “Chinese only” area of the city is different from someone who wants to integrate by learning the language, culture, and contributing to the places we live.

        There are a lot of expats here that deserve the foreigner status. The guys that are here for 1 year, banging as many chicks as possible, teaching English at some crappy university a few hours a week just enjoying their year abroad before going home.

        But for those of us who’ve been here for many years, this stereotype gets old, and for me, it makes me think – if I wasn’t in China, I wouldn’t have to deal with it.

        So in the US, when you go for a burger, does the waiter ask if you like rice? Do random people ask you if you have a small dick? Do girls ask if they can touch your nose because the bridge is no-existent? When you speak English to someone do they respond with a fake Chinese accent?

        That shit happens here EVERY DAY, and I hear it from kids as young as 10ish all the way up to retirees – from strangers, friends, colleagues, and anyone else.

        There. I cried my river.

        • elizabeth

          Moon river, wider than a mile. I’m crossing you in style…someday…

      • mopedchi

        Bullshit

        • mopedchi

          If you consider yourself a “Beijinger”, then why should anyone else consider you an American?

          Any anyone that uses Wikipedia as a reference is a retard.

    • MrT

      I’m leaving the UK because it sucks big balls.
      I will move to China where it sucks small balls.
      I cant wait to get there, is it true the women are all beautiful and the food great?

      • tai wai

        No. But the food is likely better, and the women more beautiful, than in the UK.

        The beer sucks, though.

      • Gontraf

        I did exactly that, left the UK and came to China. My advise to you is: Don’t.

        After I have moved on (soon), I will always keep a fond memory of China as the place that has helped me realise how fantastic all these other places really are. I even miss the weather from the UK, so vivifying and refreshing.

        • MrT

          Good one less in China. Enjoy the UK, I give you 6 months before you crack and realize how sht it is now.

          • Gontraf

            Doesn’t matter how shit it’s become, can’t possibly be worse than China.

            See ? That’s what China has done for me. Give me proper air to breath, clean water to drink and a decent GP down the clean street… There lies happiness my friend.

        • Dr SUN

          the public wc’s are better (cleaner) or they were when I lived there 16 odd years ago.
          Only thing I miss about the UK is the Pubs, but I hear you can’t smoke in them now , that sucks.

      • hess

        Women and food are better in every other country compared to the UK.

        (stereotypes galore)

        • Dr SUN

          Yes what a prick, everyone knows the Irish women and food are worse.

      • Winter B4 Spring

        LOL. You talking about “sucking balls”, then you talk about “women”. erm…
        o.O

    • Scott

      Yes, as an outsider, a foreigner, non-Chinese, I do not belong in China, and no matter how well I speak the language, no matter how many Chinese friends or that I am on the neighboring committee, and that in any situation I can not only defend but overwhelm opposition and assumptions about foreigners and fully argue for myself, I remain a foreigner without legal recourse. I own an apartment fully paid for and, no, my wife is not mainland Chinese nor citizen of the PRC (can any of you appreciate how rare that is to own an apartment in toto without a PRC citizen as spouse?) and yet, I am at the whim of government dictates every year I apply for a tourist visa to visit.

      No, I will not be accepted by the government of the PRC or its society as a coequal, nor as an alien living among them, but always at the government’s convenience and disposition. There is no legality protecting me or my property, the property legally recognized as mine during the 70-year lease but practicably I am easily divorced from it by needing to apply for a visa yearly.

      So, I had to make separate arrangements elsewhere, buying property in another Asian country where my rights to property and residence were guaranteed by law. This is the reality of China.

      China now is as Taiwan under the KMT thirty or more years ago when I attended university: xenophobic, nationalist in the extreme, full of self-loathing and denial (not a river in Egypt, please), quick to take offense at imagined slights or threats, and generally consumed with the notion of thwarted greatness. Taiwan society is now what I can hope mainland
      Chinese can evolve to in thirty years or more. Yes, I dearly hope so, but it is their choice, that I know.

      • Beijinger in Seattle

        I sympathize with this actually.

        However, the reason for this is because China, as a policy, does not want immigrants, due to its own overpopulation.

  • dilladonuts

    From Chinalawblog…

    I’ve been here for a solid 12 years. Married, own an apartment have a nice sporty car and am starting a family. I missed out on the 80s and the fun of FEC, but oh the memories China and I share. Yes, prices have risen, property has gotten expensive and the little annoyances have never improved. There is a series of letters by an American in Shanghai that was written a good 100 years ago. It should be required reading for every single expat in China as a primer. Simple fact is that some things never change, no matter how much you want them to, no matter how much you push and scream for them to change, they just simply will not. Or they change, but not for the better as far as you are concerned. And this is China. Accept it, adapt to it or give up and run away.

    Do I expect the best schools in the world for my future crotch goblins? No, of course not. They will be getting a Hukou and slapped into the private schools nearby which are reasonably priced and this will be supplemented by being good parents who give a damn. The resources are just there for the picking to be honest and they are not expensive. Want to teach your kid all about electronics? Taobao and the local shops have EVERYTHING you could possibly need. Art classes in school not up to your expectations? Make connections with a professional artist who can use an eager assistant and some cash… loads of starving artists who would jump at it. I have done work with the international schools and they are honestly a joke, loads of cash, loads of resources, but they are daycare facilities for lazy expats and the kids don’t come out all that great in the end. Quite a few just go with homeschooling if the kid has a foreign passport. When it comes down to it, if you are so busy that you have no time for your own kid and don’t earn enough to pay for an international daycare school, then yep, your time here is at an end.

    Now, my job is flexible as all hell, I can technically live whereever the hell I want to without any real impact. I can work from my apartment in Beijing as easily as I can work from our house in Shaanxi as easily as I can work from a beach in Thailand. I choose to live here and continue to choose to live here, not in spite of the random crap that has to be dealt with, but because of all the great stuff living here provides.

    So, some whine about the pollution. I dont care to be honest, it’s better than it was when I first came. So much better. Gone is the black smog-line on white tiled buildings. Gone is the “death zone” between floors 11-15.

    Whine about the water. It starts out fine, the problem is what happens to it once it reaches your faucet. Surely you can afford 20 kuai for a bottle of nongfu? Or a few hundred for a decent filter system. It’s also not some magical new thing and people have been boiling and drinking it forever without dying from it.

    Whine about the food scandals. If anything, it’s a GREAT thing that they are being exposed, do you honestly believe for even an instant that this has not been going on forever? Exposure and press means it’s being cracked down on at least to some degree rather than ignored entirely. What’s that you say? Buying food out of the back of that van parked by the river to save 3 mao isn’t a great idea? Gasp!

    Whine about the prices going up. So on one hand you want to see infinite growth, and on the other you want to see prices stay the same cheap forever, well, that doesn’t happen. I’m sorry, but those days of eating out for 20 kuai are gone. Just like those days of fen being useful are gone forever.

    Whine about the traffic. Blame here is half-half. Half on the foreign companies marketing cars as the new “must have” and half on Chinese for being first generation drivers. As a driver in Beijing, I can flat out state for a fact that the majority of traffic jams are caused by utter stupidity, not lack of infrastructure. In my family, I am 5th generation driver who was taught by a 4th generation driver. This is a country that until literally 8 years ago had no laws that said you had to pay attention to stop lights and that turning on lights at night going through villages was illegal. The vast majority of drivers here have only picked it up over the last 15 or so years, so yes, it’s chaos, this will not change overnight. Laws need to be refined, attitudes need to adapt.

    Whine about the economy. A “hard landing” is 7% growth. Think about that for a moment before you keep reading. All that “wasteful spending” in the end has resulted in some magnificent achievements that will stand regardless of what happens. Yell about ghost malls which popped up once developers were banned from squatting. They later refined the squatting practice and turned it into golf courses and “parks” which counted as “green space” for the neighboring communities and made local government look good on paper. Malls are cheap use of large amounts of land for later, actual development. Ghost cities. They are not unsold, the problem is that the buyers were all investors with hot money to dump into something and by doing so inflated the prices to a point where locals had no real shot at it. No longer possible now due to housing purchase restrictions, which is why all that capital is flying overseas to snap up property that can generate rent and produce some possible capital gains. Rich people losing money isn’t something the government (or society) really cares about.

    More on the economy. China is stockpiling resources and acquiring hard assets. After every bust there is a boom again and those who prepare for it best end up on top when it happens. Economies pouring trillions into sustaining a failing status quo . . . . well, that’s not such a hot thing to think about. Over here we have a lot of people in charge who really want to stay in charge and as such they will do pretty much anything they can to ensure they stay in charge. China still has many many more tools in the box and bullets in the gun left. Elsewhere? Not so much. Please pay careful note to the way China is developing markets in South America and Africa, they are not simply “exploiting resources”, they are building future markets and bringing stability to places that HAVE been exploited and marginalized since forever.

    Naked Officials. This is actually a great thing in so many ways. It pretty much ensures the end of the line for generational dynasties as far as government goes. Sure, they’ll come back and be handed the keys to industry, but at least they will have actual skills to apply. The next generation will see the spark of the next great boom. And for the useless ones, well, they get to go be playboys overseas driving around in super cars and pissing away daddy’s ill-gotten money, at least we won’t have to deal with them over here anymore… good luck rest of the world!

    The “me” culture and money money money. What the hell did you expect to happen? The west wanted a market to dump their shit on and wanted a market that could afford it. That was the entire basis of “opening China”. You get a whole lotta “new money” that acts like “new money”, shock, surprise. This spending is also the only thing that is keeping a large number of foreign blue chips in business anymore, as if they had to rely on revenue from their traditional markets, they’d have died out long ago. The old petty corruption didn’t vanish when the figures grew larger, it just grew right along with them. Money buys power, power begets money. The only difference here is that it’s more out in the open and obvious, while in the US, it’s all codified and legitimized in various ways.

    Oh no, still no democracy. 1.? billion people, foreign interests running rampant, big money at play and wildly hot tempers when something doesn’t turn out as expected. Sorry, but I prefer long-term planning and stability to everyone gets to choose the prettiest liar whose only thought is “how will I get elected again”. Let those in the upper echelons fight it out amongst themselves in private, it really does not matter and there is infinitely better vetting and merit-based review than any voting will ever provide for. Polarizing China is not a smart idea.

    Speaking of politics… politics. China’s growing a pair (finally), or at least realizing they can throw their weight around some. It’s the Great Game all over again in many regards. Soft power investments are paying off and attempts to harm the Chinese economy are not a smart idea… as it’s quite literally the only thing keeping many other nations and MNCs afloat right now. If you track the oh-so-familiar buzz words in international media, you can pretty much pick apart who is on what side at least marginally. It’s pretty entertaining to watch unfold and there are big things coming relatively soon. One side making power plays, while the other side whines and moans about losing the game they designed to only allow for themselves to win.

    Inflation… aka, the “bbbbut I’m not rich anymore” syndrome. Sure, you came a long time ago, back when your precious forex was king. You were pampered in a villa or compound and your “expertise” provided a wage that beyond comprehension for most. Life was grand, taxi fare was a joke, fine dining was cheaper than fast food back home and personal servants were a dime a dozen. You hung out and got shit-faced with other expats in run-down grungy bar-streets on beer that was cheaper than water. Getting a hold of various imports made you the “go to guy” in your circle. Hell, you didn’t even have to speak Chinese, just live in that bubble and your company got you a translator… after all, it’s not like they are going to trust the locals to manage their operations. Well, that colonial life is nearing an end, sorry. Chinese are coming back from overseas and are more qualified than you ever were, willing to work for far less and are far less demanding. You never bothered to buy property, after all, rent was cheap and the company paid it. You find yourself now in a hilarious situation where the economy boomed all around you and you were too trapped in your little bubble to notice. Oh, and that side-project you were working on? Yea, it finally got shut down by the government because you never bothered to be legal about it.

    How about now? Fairly easy to get pretty much everything, gone is the exciting thrill of the hunt for random shit to pamper your existence. Vanishing are the quaint hutongs of Beijing that lack bathrooms and rustic living (most residents WANT to be developed so they can cash out on the property and have a modern life). And suddenly you find that eating out is no longer cheaper than eating-in, it’s almost as if people demand more money for things in a world where your day job is reliant on pushing overpriced crap to the public.

    Food inflation is not due to China, it’s due to global markets and that whole “one price” bullshit. Also due to futures manipulation going on overseas, which is another whole ball of wax. Wait and see what happens when China finally says enough and reinstates price controls and restricts exports of strategic resources. Also, that money doesn’t just vanish, it’s transferring a whole shitload of wealth to the countryside…. those who fail to take advantage will be replaced with those who do. You know, the quaint countryside of massive inefficiency, do you dare consider what will happen when it stops being so inefficient? I’ll tell you what happens, things get magical. In my wife’s small little farming village hometown, we have >personally< invested around $500k over the last 5 years in pushing for better practices and more economically productive labor. Before we started, the average yearly income was around 6000 RMB per year, it’s pushing 60,000 now and it’s sustainable. Small scale, only about 100 families, but it entirely reversed the flow of youth running to the cities there and neighboring villages are studying the hell out of what we did to make it happen. I’m not an NGO, I’m not a profit-seeker, this isn’t even my field of expertise, it was a side project at best and it’s fun to see actual results happen. And not, it was not altruistic, we have our own operations ongoing within the family and the proceeds from that are more than enough, boosted by economies of scale provided by the other families. Fairly win-win in the end.

    In summation, you only are gonna get out what you put into this place, and rarely, if ever will the two balance out, if the only thing you have to contribute is vague and intangible, that’s probably what you will get out of it at best. Sorry English teachers, in the end you are useless sacks of white flesh. Sorry expat bubble community, if the only thing you can do is cater to the expat community, don’t expect to see anything come from China. Sorry trading companies, your reliance on cheap crap being made here that you can mark up 50x cost didn’t really benefit anyone in the end and those factories are being pushed up the value chain and cutting you the fuck out of the equation. Sorry foreign consultants, an entire generation of Chinese are coming back from overseas and can do your job better.

    If anything is going on here, it’s a shift, a rather large one, a rather difficult one, but a shift none the less. Those who can’t hack it are smart to get out, because they will not survive. You can see that shift rather clearly if you look at the composition of companies here. Fewer companies with foreign management, far more with Chinese management. You may feel it’s unfair, the government is denying you the ability to succeed through red tape and regulation and whatever your excuse is. After all, you’ve been doing the same thing you’ve been doing for the past 20 years and suddenly it’s not working anymore. Oops, China’s getting it’s shit together. Labor laws are becoming a real thing, your business model is dying and you cannot adapt. This exact shift happened to our own industry starting about 5 years ago. We spent a decade offshoring our bitch-work to India for cheap while we made out like bandits. Indian outsourcers kinda sorta got their shit together and realized they could have so much more of the pie, seeing as they were doing all the hard work already. They shifted gears and are now becoming players on the scene, and they do it for cheap. We have been forced to rethink our entire industry as they gobbled up a huge chunk of it. This process is still ongoing. Those that resist and cry about their clients being stolen ultimately just go under and fail, those that dream up excuses fail. Those that innovate and reach are being rewarded with fat contracts and huge buyouts.

    Summation numero 2: Far too many expats came here pampered and treated like royalty, and this made up for what was, in their minds, lacking or deficient. They are now no longer royalty and those nagging issues either stayed the same or amplified from their view without the royal treatment to make up for it. As the western economies are either dead or dying, there is also a large influx of Generation Worthless trying to carve out a living by rushing over here, and yes, they are annoying as all hell and piece by little piece helping to tear down that image you spent the last decade plus to build. You went from 同志 to 外国朋友 to 老外 to 死老外 because of them, after all, you didn’t change, China changed and you don’t like it anymore. So better find an excuse to get out of dodge and make it sound like you didn’t fail and have zero qualifications to deal with China.

    As far as the “great expat exodus”, let me know when permanent resident card holders start fleeing en mass, not because I want to join in, but because that in and of itself is an amazing signal that there is a void to be filled. Those who stay on through the tough times and make themselves useful have a history of receiving the greatest rewards later.

    • Dr SUN

      However when Mr smith wrote his letters 100 odd years ago China was still a Feudal society,headed by a emperor and lead by a privileged educated minority that where quite happy to steal millions for themselves and see millions of people die from poverty, disease and famine every year.

      It has changed it’s swapped the emperor for the CPC and the privileged educated elite for a privileged uneducated elite.

      Also I’d like to see your stats on returning “post grads v’s non- returning post grads, if you could post a link to that it would be much appreciated.

      I hope the CPC central committee uses your village as a role model for all rural China, increasing farmers income by x 5 the average and staying competitive is a feat worthy of “honorary citizenship”.

      Your children with their village (peasant) hukuo are doomed to be migrant workers (in your model village)
      Your assessment on housing and how govt regulations are controlling it and stopping speculating, was…. well just to funny.
      The rest I can’t be bothered to comment on.

    • Beijinger in Seattle

      this post is completely credited.

    • Gontraf

      I’d like to hear more. What about the Chinese healthcare system ? Please enlighten us on its merits. :)

    • Alain

      Sorry English teachers, in the end you are useless sacks of white flesh. Sorry expat bubble community, if the only thing you can do is cater to the expat community, don’t expect to see anything come from China. Sorry trading companies, your reliance on cheap crap being made here that you can mark up 50x cost didn’t really benefit anyone in the end and those factories are being pushed up the value chain and cutting you the fuck out of the equation. Sorry foreign consultants, an entire generation of Chinese are coming back from overseas and can do your job better.

      Sorry but cannot and do not agree. But for the sake of argument, and some internet sparring (keeps knuckles limber, and getting the blood boiling a bit is good for heart, keeps your fertility!) let me just that I am right, and you are wrong?

      Why am I right, you ponder, as the blood vessels burst in your forehead, but before quivering fingers make contact with plastic laptop keys, let me just say what has been given, can be taken away. Look at Mexico as a prime example. You can teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime, never a truer saying. The problem is China has fish…but they just are not fishing.

      So fine, kick out or let the useless white sacks/boozing whinging expats leave. But then, what will china become? Without the teachers, the language centres will surely close. Without expats doing imports/exports, noone to buy or source from the factories, nor bring in that much sought after foreign currency.

      No, better to stay in China, even whinging over 2 kuai beer, while earning 10,000 rmb a month as an english teacher with a cheap or even subsidized apartment than fleeing like a drowned rat. Deal with it, seethe on it, but it is truth…..or go back to cleaning the bogs in Chicago mcdonalds or mopping up the spent cum on the bus after your shift driving it in LA, it’s all same thing ain’t it really?

      Again not personal, muddying the waters, mixing up the swamp, it’s all discussion, is it not?

      Regards
      ALE

    • The Enlightened One

      This post fails to mention other things that drive foreigners crazy such as:

      - Horrible lack of manners (shitting/pissing on the streets et al)
      - Constant annoying reminders (Yes, I know I am a lao wai! Thanks, I forgot.)
      - Abyssal construction (Let’s ride/walk on the collapsing bridges/sidewalks)
      - How the authorities treat their people (forced abortions, beating civilians openly)
      - Lack of possible citizenship (if you care so much about the place, you may want to contribute and spend your life there right? Well, too fucking bad! GTFO)

      If you want to contribute to a place and be there through the “tough times” and gain the “rewards” you should be allowed to be a damn citizen or AT LEAST some form of permanent residency. For god sakes man they take taxes out of your pay and the government has recently got foreigners to buy into a “welfare/pension” system… yet the failed to specify it’s use and directly answer the question if foreigners are given this amount when they leave China. Since we have no rights and can be told to GTFO on a whim’s notice… seems like they are playing people like you for fools.

      Seriously, are you that dumb?

    • minor

      I read these posts over at the other blogs too…would help if most of the posters here had read them, as they would know what kitto was talking about, rather than the chinese version of what they thought he was talking about.

      This guy (above post) makes some valid points, but wait until he has kids here and then come back a year later and ask if he still believes everything is fine and he’ll stay here for life?

      I’ve been in China for close to 15 years and thought it was a great life, until the birth of my daughter. Now I’m constantly worried that she will be harmed in a traffic accident (or run over by some dick on an e-bike not watching where he’s going), get sub-standard health care, get caught up in ananti-foreigner protest, get a shite education (can’t afford to pay 120k RMB per year for primary school education at an international school, don’t want her doing 3 hours of homework in second grade at a local school) and a myriad of other problems.

      So, even though I realize the economy is shite “back home” (even though housing prices are still really high) and getting a job will be hard, I’m seriously contemplating leaving…which I would never have thought of doing a few years back.

    • simon

      what an epic post.

    • BigCAD

      I personally dream of nuking Chinese cities however I think this is one of the best comments on this site I have ever read.

  • LaoLao

    What in the hell is this? Have you passed the 4th Level [of English proficiency test]?

    • maja

      I think it’s the minumum english level required to chinese college students

  • Cleo

    Well, it’s still a developing country so you’re not going to get the best of the world there although you did get your kids soaked in the best of Chinese heritage in your childhood and probably some old world into the marrow which is what you always wanted. I can’t believe they never intended to take their kids out when they were ready. This article is a sham. Unless you are a German spy marrying a Namibian nomad and sharing an egg cooked on ash with Anthony Bourdain, there is no way you would leave your kids in a developing country.

  • Alain

    I doubt this article will change much.

    They won’t care if foreigners or “laowai” leave.

    China can still screw the US, even if there is not one single american in their country. The problem is they accept kindness as weakness. Getting off topic, but if the US had the balls to put a 25 percent tax on Chinese imports, and stop inviting Hu to state dinners and appeasing him, and as well as stand up for the rights of Americans in China, then maybe things would be different. But Obama has zero backbone….

    • Chom

      They better give American’s in the U.S their rights first before worrying about those who choose to come to China…

    • Cooljackal

      Actually, China is more than likely to get screwed in the long run because they’re holding so much of our debt. This scenario has been played out many times before in history. The creditor (China) can ask for the money from the debitor (USA) and if they can’t pay or want an extension, then China can twist their arm a bit and get some laws and regulations in their favor (used previously by creditors to kings for financing their wars). Or maybe some land discretely?

      Now, what happens if China starts collapsing from the inside due to social unrest and the USA suddenly decides not to pay back the loans? This would be a branching point for a lot of different scenarios, one of which would be where China becomes a danger to the immediate surrounding countries but america comes off with a clean slate financially. Would there be reprecussions, probably (China isn’t the only debt holder, and China has weapons). My thought is that there is more than likely a long term strategy involved here from both sides and the probabilities of either side winning will never be known to us. China and the USA know this, that’s why they talk big but never act on it. If they did, we would have those import tariffs like you said.

      And I agree. Obama has no backbone.

      • Cooljackal

        And when I said it has played out before, I was referring to the person holding the debt getting to call some shots, and not that the creditor was screwed long term. On the contrary, the creditor usually ended up doing well (unless of course the monarch/president decided to destroy them, or “the people” revolted).

  • B

    Come to Taiwan, people are friendly , have moral and ethics.. Most laowai that leaves China for Taiwan loves it here and never go back. It’s what China could of have been and more. (Oo)y

    • Beijinger in Seattle

      Taiwanese men are jokes and complete pussies.

      Sorry, no.

      • Dave in Macau

        Yeah, there’s no way I’m carrying a girl’s handbag around like those Taiwanese pussies.

        • http://www.china-speakers-bureau.com Fons Tuinstra

          Carrying handbags? I thought that was what the Shanghainese men would do.

          • Winter B4 Spring

            i agree. its the shanghainese men. not taiwanese.

        • Brett Hunan

          Hah… I always said that too…

          I did, however, start to carry my wife’s after we got married. Twofold answer as to why: 1) After I agreed to it the first time, I saw how genuinely happy she was. 2) Anyone who can put up with me for more than 4 years deserves a little extra effort.

        • mr. wiener

          I still love Dim Mak’s summation on Taiwan: “An economic backwater peopled by Japan worshiping metrosexuals”……. Masterful.

        • Linette

          Mr. dave in Macau, If you are really in Macau, I am sure you will be more than happy to be a pussy carrying a girl’s handbag. When a girl ask you to carry her handbag it means she admits that she’s yours. She dosen’t ask just any man. So you carry her handbag while she shops. Big deal. My father does that all the time for my mom and it’s the sweatest thing. Those are good men. Not pussies.

      • EBTaipei

        So you moved to Seattle for the men? Hope that’s working out well for you.

        Taiwan’s a great place to live for the reasons B mentioned and many more.

        • Beijinger in Seattle

          It’s a great place to live for Western expats, because you can walk all over the locals, sure.

          • Bo Xilai For Emperor

            Isn’t that what’s happening in China right now? Check the topic at Chinasmack “Chinese women stop sleeping with foreigners!!!” LOL By the way motherland is calling you asking “Why have you betrayed me by going to Seattle in the land of Uncle Sam?”

        • Jennster

          He’s saying from a beijing ren point of view that taiwanese men are relatively metrosexual and ‘pussies’ compared to a distinctive north chinese culture where they are ‘chun ye men’ (pure manly man). beijing less so than north easteners but still manlier and bash women openly etc. both are han chinese but regional and climatic cultures chnage looks/height and behaviour

      • el negro pedro

        @Beijinger

        You must have been picked on A LOT.

        But instead of assuming everyone is racist asshole, consider for a moment, and maybe this is hard because you’re Chinese, that perhaps you’re at fault. Maybe you are the asshole and there is a valid reason why no one wants to be your friend. Because clearly if you had friends, you wouldn’t need to be all over the internet with your ultra nationalist, anti-foreigner blah blah blah trying SO.VERY.HARD to seek attention.

        You are obviously looking for some sort of validation or a way to spout off your frustrations. I suggest looking inwards. Be calm. The world is not against you. Foreigners are not laughing at you behind your back! It’s just your insecurities bro! Seattle is one of the most multi-cultural chill places on earth. It behooves me as to why are you such a cock sucking little bitch.

        I’m not Taiwanese or anything but for a Chinamen to call a Taiwanese a pussy is really, really amusing. You guys were sure tough when little Japan came tumbling into town. You all couldn’t run away fast enough while your country was literally getting raped. Same thing when you tried to invade little Vietnam in 79. OWNAGE.

        You are dreaming of China attacking Japan, and therefore finally redeeming yourself in your own eyes. But you know in your heart, your country doesn’t have the balls to do such a thing. It’s just big talk, just like your big talk on the internet.

        The only people Chinamen know how to fight are women, the elderly, children and weaker Chinese. SO SCARY!!!!!! Scary internet guy!

        I’m not going to read or respond to any response you make so don’t even bother. It’s going to be blah blah blah blah blah blah….

        I suggest you don’t invite me for a fight appointment because you think it’ll save you face. It’s pathetic. As if you are going to fly to China to meet me and then what? Fight me for hurting the feelings of the Chinese people? I’ve seen you do it before whenever someone has called you out and you have no rational response. You are such an embarrassment of a human being. I just wanted you to know my unimportant, unsubstantial opinion. Hope it doesn’t bother you too much what a stranger thinks of you on the internet cool guy.

        • Chom

          To be honest, you’re the one looking pathetic as far as I can see. Such a simple comment can set you off on a racist rant? Its you that have serious issues my friend. Where are you from anyway if not from Taiwan?

        • Beijinger in Seattle

          Sorry bro, just speaking from experience here. Taiwanese men are laughable, and have vaginas.

          • mr. wiener

            Hmmm …..I think you’ve been hanging out in the red theatre area of Ximen ding.
            “laughable and have vaginas” …..?
            Well most folk here would consider you pathetic rather than laughable ,but on the up side you do seem to have the c*nt thing nailed.

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            @Mr Wiener

            well most people on this blog seem to be dregs of society, so quite frankly, I don’t give a f.

          • mr. wiener

            Well if this site is a toilet and you are just passing through then you must be a……..

          • chinitaloca

            No one is here calling out names on you mainlanders(we just give the truth facts and experiences”LIKE YOU”), so theres no need for you to call name on other countries.

            And Taiwanese men are far more caring, gentlemen and less MACHIST that you mainlanders will ever. I bet for you hitting women is something you think is right to do, that is how husbands are suppose to treat wifes.

            Domestic violence is so SCREWED UP in mainland china!

      • Dat Ankle

        Unless you plan on fucking them, I dont see why thats a real problem.

  • Justin

    Wait, I’m pretty sure a month ago, the New York Times and Wall Street Journal and every other media source were reporting that foreigners are all headed to China in droves. Now we’re all leaving? Which is happening? They can’t both be happening.

    • moonmickey

      Those articles were written by people that don’t live in China, the article this thread is based on was written by Mark Kitto, he’s been in China what 20 years?

      • Justin

        Yeah, and based on Kitto’s article, it seems like all-in-all China has actually been quite good to him. He opened successful businesses here that made him lots of money and met a wife. It was obviously good enough for him to stay here for nearly 20 years. No one was holding a gun to his head. Now, he’s disillusioned because China hasn’t had some kind of revolution and morphed into the kind of democracy that he envisioned it would become one day. Big deal. It’s like the frog and the scorpion. He knew what it was when he swam across the river with it on his back, and now he’s having a bitch fit because the damn thing stung him. It just seems like he’s tired of the life here and wants to make his exit have “meaning” like he is writing an indictment of the Chinese government/society rather than an ode to his own vain sense of self-importance

        • Alain

          Now, he’s disillusioned because China hasn’t had some kind of revolution and morphed into the kind of democracy that he envisioned it would become one day

          I don’t think it is unfair to expect some kind of revolution, even at a grassroots level. If you look at the rest of the world, communism as an ideology is pretty much dead. OK, Cuba and North Korea, but who wants to live in those places, with no internet, no mobile access,,,,yet the leaders can do what the hell they want. No, one thing I agree with bush about, with economic freedom must come political freedom. Time for China to decide, and take her place amongst other giants of nations, or remain forever isolated under her shield of socialism with chinese characteristics, which every man and his dog knows is capitalism without a doubt. Why should he support a system that forced his magazine to close down?

    • Beijinger in Seattle

      It is in fact possible that both sides are correct, and both things are happening. There is a portion of people who are in China now, both expats and Chinese, that want to get out, and a portion of people outside of China who want to work and live there.

      In Chinese, there is a very concise way to explain this, which is “围城” or “siege”. Basically, it means that during a siege, people who are outside of the city want to get in, but people who are inside the city want to get out.

      It’s the same idea as the grass is always greener on the other side, but more fitting in this case.

    • http://500px.com/whiskersthecat whiskersthecat

      Summer vacation is over.

      • sonny

        lol

    • elizabeth

      Foreigners heading to China in droves to get married, make some good money before leaving with the dough for good.

  • wafflestomp

    Beijinger in Seattle, you’re a moron. You honestly believe being Asian in North America is some sort of curse? It isn’t. Mexicans and blacks have it much worse, but even then the life of a poor man in the USA is better than a middle class Chinese citizen. This can’t be denied.

    Suicide rates are high in asians due to parental pressure. Simple. Asians aren’t viewed as “foreigners” in North America, you obviously have some preconceived biases clouding your already questionable judgement.

    “It’s the grass is always greener syndrome. I know plenty of Americans, Asian or otherwise, who want to move to Asia.”

    The only people who want out are those looking to retire and relax in elderly years/teach. I don’t know a single person on this earth who wants to go to asia to raise a family. Not one. You’re talking out of your ass again son.

    • wafflestomp

      To follow up, I think anyone raising a child in China is a poor parent and needs to rethink what’s best for the child.

      Unhealthy and tainted food, massive pollution, lack of any sort of sports programs (props yao ming for standing up), a corrupt and flawed education system, and endless training schools are what await a future student in China. Better on welfare in the US than teaching in China.

      • Beijinger in Seattle

        that’s such bullshit.

        there are plenty of trash that were raised in Western countries, and plenty o f decent people raised in China.

        believe it or not, to a child, the most important influence is his or her parents.

        • Bo Xilai For Emperor

          you mean decent trash like you? true beijinger?

        • wafflestomp

          No, there aren’t plenty of decent people raised in China. The whole education system erases any work decent parents have done. Of course western countries have some trash, but ALL of China is trash.

        • Bo Xilai For Emperor

          Yeah and your parents sure raised you well, just look at my piece of shit son Bo Guagua, I’m a degenerate corrupt CCP official who forces women to sleep with me even though I look like a monkey, and my wife is a slore who slept with multiple men. Oh well, we are awesome parents look at how well my kid turn out, here is your example Beijinger the MAN

          • Beijinger in Seattle

            Bo Guagua was educated in the West, buddy.

          • Bo Xilai For Emperor

            NO shit of course I know Einstein, got “full scholarship” into Britain’s top schools.

          • Bo Xilai For Emperor

            Now hiding out in the US after his visa expires, now he might just join the 6-4 movement to free his father from the oppressive CCP hahaha commies and their kids

    • Matt

      I’d just like to agree with your first sentence.

    • Beijinger in Seattle

      Hey, simple question, if you are not interested in China, why are you on this site?

      • Cooljackal

        I think you can be interested in a topic but have opposing opinions with others who are also interested in the same topic.

        • wafflestomp

          +1

  • Asis

    Growth declining. Tempers rising.

    Don’t leave now! It’s just getting interesting.

  • MrT

    I can understand why anyone would want to leave Beijing, its the arse hole of China, like LA is to America.( full of them to)
    The air in other parts of China is far better then UK, I can breath again for first time in my life, I also don’t need to be down the doctors every month.
    I buy bottled water, much like every one in China, fluoride free…

    • Alain

      I can understand why anyone would want to leave Beijing, its the arse hole of China, like LA is to America.

      Difference is LA at least has some beaches and national parks, and no coughing, hacking, spitting people behind you. Beijing is just a sprawling city, with no clearly definable “centre”, perhaps LA is the same, but ask most Chinese which city they would choose?

      • MrT

        Shenzhen

        • Chom

          My god, ShenZhen is the most soulless city in China!

          • Alain

            I can attest to that , lived for one year in Shenzhen, and passed through/visited many times.

            A modern, but soulless city.

          • Dr SUN

            Yeah a fishing village not that long ago now a Gangster run Metropolis, with no soul.

          • The Enlightened One

            I have to agree. Shenzhen is hollow, it’s like Hong Kong’s soulless bitch.

      • Cooljackal

        LA does have a smog problem and so does central California (more than LA). But Alain is right in that there is some definition to the madness in southern California.

      • elizabeth

        Shanghai.

    • Chom

      @ MrT,

      What are you at? So your saying that since you moved to China you “can breath again for the first time in my life”

      But in one of your comments on this story, you say you haven’t moved to China yet:

      “I’m leaving the UK because it sucks big balls.
      I will move to China where it sucks small balls.
      I cant wait to get there, is it true the women are all beautiful and the food great?”

      So what your saying is a load of s**t, why pretend to be someone else? Its stupid.

      • MrT

        I is brain dead, don’t waist your words on me.
        Its to no avail.
        I know, I stopped listening to the crp i talk a long time ago.

  • Bo Xilai For Emperor

    My spoiled idiot son is hiding in the US, if I have the chance to escape, I’ll go to the US as well and lick Uncle Sam’s balls for five cents every week, as you can see we’re on a huge sinking ship, unable to bear the weight of 1.3 Billion people, need population control…cultural revolution baby!!! great leap forward!!! Chairman Mao give me all your might to enslave this land once more!!!

    • Thor

      Eventually, China’s shifted from the great leap forward to the Great Leap Overseas.

  • 长颈鹿同学

    I have been in China for almost three years, and in those years I’ve been a Chinese language student, I have conducted research for my master’s thesis and I have been a teacher of English and French. Despite the fact that I got sick a few times (It never was really serious though and I don’t know if the Chinese environment has to be blamed) and depite the fact that salaries in my home country are much higher, I’m still planning to return to China to be an English teacher. As a non-native speaker, it is quite hard to find a decent job as an English teacher, even though I have a white face (I’m not a hot guy but I am not ugly either), two years of experience, a degree, TESOL certificate and very good English pronunciation.

    During those years in China I learned a lot about the attitude of Chinese towards foreigners, and many experiences of people here on CS are not strange to me. I speak near-perfect Chinese and know how to behave in different social situations. I try to hide the fact that I am richer than the locals (for example, I often tried to prevent the locals from seeing my iPhone, because they see it as a symbol of wealth), just because I wanted them to look at me as anyone else. Still it didn’t take a long time to realize that having good Chinese skills and behaving like them won’t change the fact that in China, a foreigner will always be an outsider.

    Despite these difficulties and the discrimination (sometimes positive, sometimes negative) a foreigner in China has to face day in day out, I still feel I have good reasons to be in China. It’s not that I can’t find a decent job in my country, with my degree I can always find a well-paid job. It’s not that I want to hunt for cheap girls, because both Asian and white girls show interest in me. It is because China is a part of my life. I have a master’s degree in sinology, my education allows me to read modern and classical Chinese texts, it opened a gate to know anything about China I want to know. A country like modern-day China is extremely fascinating, the existance of CS just proves this, and getting to know more and more about this country is a goal in my life. As an English teacher in China, I can live and work close to this country’s future representatives, while at the same time I can study the country at my own pace.

    Still, maybe I will think differently after a few years, maybe I will also be deeply disappointed and go back to my country where the air is clean and where a well-developed welfare system takes care of the people, even more than they need. But at least I want to give it try.

    • elizabeth

      English Teacher in China? You may hear from jin, capt, mao et al…

      • elizabeth

        Ah, I see now why the Capt is furious. I’m sorry Capt…and maybe mao :) Just teasing.

        But I am sure I got jin right.

        Peace.

    • Kukuku

      Good for you. As long as you get what you want from your work in China then you’re golden.

      I also speak French and English btw., being from Quebec. It’s true some people will look down on you because you have an accent, but if you have other skills to sell than that may not be a deal breaker at all.

      My parents speak French and English natively and I was raised in a bilingual environment. Went to school mostly in French though. I have a degree in ESL teaching and as far as I know my accent is not noticeable enough anymore so even pure native speakers won’t notice I’m from Quebec. I guess I’m losing some of my French though – my father says I have an English accent when I call him now.

    • The Enlightened One

      You have a good outlook and I agree that China is good for people who want to learn something new. I certainly did.

      However, if you are looking to build a foundation for things like a family, a career (outside of teaching English), buying a home or starting a business… then China is not the place to reside.

      It’s an amazing stop-over point in life, but not a place to spend your life.

      • Alain

        a career (outside of teaching English), buying a home or starting a business… then China is not the place to reside.

        It’s an amazing stop-over point in life, but not a place to spend your life

        Nay lad, you are over thinking things again. It is a great place to spend your life. Cold, cheap beer, good food, and who says one has to teach english forever, lots blagged or made it into different jobs. No, better that than sweeping streets in some dull town in England, or cleaning the bogs at some school in a sleepy midwestern town of the US. If China did get too much, consider Taiwan as an alternative.

      • Alain

        Also, I think this guy in “you tube land” would vehemently disagree with you, just saying!

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqs22S_tCjs

        I bet he wishes he was in a grimy first floor flat in Wuhan, with cockroaches, spitting migrant workers walking past his door each morning, next door to a butt ugly chinese guy and his sexily smoking hot girlfriend who make love loudly each night, rather than be in the position he is in state-side. No, you get settled in China, and find a nice lady to cuddle and kiss with, and keep you company when eating BBQ, nothing going on in the western world to get excited about….

        • The Enlightened One

          Where are you at Alain?

          • Alain

            Currently, in Spain, 36 years old and unemployed. Relying on the charity of uncle/mother/ and my dwindling savings and whatever I recycle or bits of odd work that I can pick up.

            They don’t call it la crisis for nowt over here, and they are right. For young unemployed locals, supermarket work is about it, and I certainly don’t fancy telesales. No, you are better off staying put young fellow me lad, nothing for you in the West, the migration is to the east, they are the only ones with the money these days, at least until this economic malaise passes, and that will be years yet.

            Nay, you stay over there and enjoy the food and living costs, trust me, even with welfare in your home country, you still won’t have it as good.

            Regards
            Al

          • The Enlightened One

            Why don’t you just teach English in China then?

            Canada wasn’t hit so badly with the economical crisis. In fact, it didn’t do much at all in my home area. I know Europe is getting hit REALLY bad, especially Spain.

          • Alain

            Why don’t you just teach English in China then?

            Basically just got tired of what was relatively undemanding work being made more demanding by a Chinese co worker proclaiming himself an expert on anything, even though I would say my Chinese was far better than his english. At that point I realized China, esp arrogant Chinese males would NEVER change, and with more or less 7 years in the pot decided to chuck it in, so no, not keen to go back to it. Taiwan, yes, HK, Macau, the mainland, no way in hell. HK especially is just another province of China now, won’t be long before it and Macau are both just additions to guangdong province.

            Hope that explains it more TEO. And yes Spain is hell, but the weather, warmth of the people, great beer and wine, more than makes up for any short term depression.

            Cheers and beers
            Alain

      • Chom

        Actually its a great place to start a business

        • elizabeth

          Great place to start a business if you have the money.

        • The Enlightened One

          That depends… on many factors.

  • elizabeth

    Yeah, why is China making it so difficult for foreigners (even locals) to operate businesses?

    • moonmickey

      Because the people that have a say in the “laws” of China don’t want businessmen with more money than commie party members.

      • elizabeth

        But then again, without people with more money, where will they get more money indefinitely? Squeezing those with less money is short-sighted since they are an exhaustible limited pool.

    • Dr SUN

      because the bureaucrats need more money every year to cover their kids schooling abroad and their multiple home purchases.
      So business license bribes, taxes etc need to increase exponentially.

      • elizabeth

        Yes, an inferior strategy. One of these days, they will end up with no one to tax.

    • elizabeth

      It suddenly dawned on me that it is an ingenious set-up to have commie party leadership for an essentially capitalist state though it seems paradoxical.

    • kodi

      Government decides who gets rich…… That’s the unwritten rule.

  • Dr SUN

    I’ve got the best solution for you NH, travel the World without going outside of the USA.- Go RV’ing

    Proposed itinerary:
    Brighton beach – Russia
    Little Italy (NY) – Italy
    Boston (south side) Ireland
    Japan Town (SF) – Japan
    China Town (LA) – China
    South Central (LA) – Africa
    ABQ (NM) – Latin America
    New Orleans – French Quarter – France

    There you go NH, you can travel the world without a passport.

    • The Enlightened One

      LoL, That sounds like a red neck version of “getting global”.

    • Nanny Hiccups

      hahaha i’ve already been around the states and even chicago where i grew up has a large chinatown.

      • Dr SUN

        Well being from Chicago, Xenophobia, lack of culture and rampant corruption can’t be anything new for you.
        So what you worried about ?

  • Jim M.

    “Although it is unknown whether or not this data is accurate, at least it reveals a trend, a phenomenon that cannot be ignored.”

    It may be a phenomenon, but it’s not a trend.

    By definition, you can’t have a trend with one data-point.

  • Ted

    I understand leaving China because it is such a fucked up place, but not because I would never be “Chinese”. Why do they want to be Chinese? Do they want to learn bad manners, worship money and care nothing for their fellow man? Wanting to be Chinese is definitely setting your sights too low.

    • elizabeth

      I think he meant being treated like one of them. Like Chinese, family, not outsider.

    • Terry

      You should leave. China doesn’t want or need you.

      • bbqrooster

        Exactly, that should be the attitude. Criticize China, then get out of China. I hope China maintains this attitude so that more able people will leave China.

  • Foreign Devil

    spent 2 years in Beijing. Got some work experience that helped my career in Canada (not English teacher). Met my wife. Somehow paid off my education debt. . then married and got out of China.

    Best thing was it gave me a greater love and appreciation for my own country of Canada.

    Most of the problems I experienced in China came from overpopulation. I’ve concluded that overpopulation of a nation decreases quality of life drastically in so many ways and destroys the environment of the country itself. That is why I hope Canada stops worrying about GDP and let’s our population decline or stay neutral rather than open the floodgates for millions of immigrants every year.

    • The Enlightened One

      You are damn right. It has given me the utmost love for my country.

      I was a spoiled little brat in Canada… didn’t appreciate anything! Well, thank you China. You have taught me that lesson.

      • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

        I’m in the same boat. I thought I’d never go back to the states (left during Bush administration).

        Though American patriotism doesn’t fly in most of the world…China’s shown me that American isn’t so bad after all.

  • http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/nanjing-foreigner-fights-girl-gives-crowd-middle-finger.html cheddy

    As soon as everything is over, i am outer here. Been here for 5 years but am always bn treated like a foreigner, plus i dont like the leaving conditions in china

    • Dr SUN

      ESL teacher ?

    • The Enlightened One

      Well if you don’t like the “leaving” conditions, then you better stay here.

      • elizabeth

        Lol!

  • wacky

    even his own article doesnt tell us why was his business taken away, i really want to know how did he build his business?? by playing with the rule or by being a superman???
    why was the business taken away? because he did nothing wrong or because he suddenly thought that once he is rich he could be a superman???

    i think it is clear from the beginning that china does not naturalize foreigner therefore he will always become a foreigner, the rule is clear.

    • Young Man

      Yes, SHAMEFAWL DISPRAY!

      Seriously- do I get a prize for spotting a wumao?

      Can we make it a game like Where’s Waldo?

      • wacky

        i dont need your wumao i give you 10 kuai if you want but please respond logically or at least make a point

    • wacky

      the next funny thing that i repeatedly heard is about the air, food, peoples’s habit etc then the next thing i hear is ” i have been here for (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) years”” wtf are you doing in china then why didn’t you go back after 1 year????

      the fact is china is a developing country and the issues it has are those of the developing countries, i cant believe that people from develop countries come china and expect to experience similar situation back home

      • The Enlightened One

        I think they expected to become accepted and fell in love with the country.

        I mean, you see tons of Chinese moving their families aborad and being treated well (depends on the neighborhood I guess). At least getting citizenship or permanent residency (this is the ONLY argument I need).

        Yet, we will never be accepted and everyone learns that the hard way.

        You think… maybe if I get really good at Mandarin… No!
        You think… maybe if I setup a ton of guanxi… No!
        You think… maybe if I setup a business and contribute to society… No!
        You think… maybe if I have a Chinese family… No!
        You think… maybe if I can read ancient Chinese poems… No!
        You think… maybe if I go in a cross-talk show (Da Shan)… No!

        NO, NEVER… NOT EVER… GTFO!

        We expected this would change in time as China developed… I mean look at all the events they have hosted (Olympics, Exp, etc.)… acting all global and accepting of people from different nationalities and races… but it hasn’t and may never change.

        • Alain

          You think… maybe if I get really good at Mandarin… No!
          You think… maybe if I setup a ton of guanxi… No!
          You think… maybe if I setup a business and contribute to society… No!
          You think… maybe if I have a Chinese family… No!
          You think… maybe if I can read ancient Chinese poems… No!
          You think… maybe if I go in a cross-talk show (Da Shan)… No!

          Absolutely so true. And you know the most galling part, they seem to get annoyed at you knowing Mandarin well, like they cannot lie and talk about you and screw you over and stuff. Or they will just profess that foreigners can’t speak mandarin well, or they don’t understand you, or so on and so forth.

        • Fraser

          It might change if the CCP loses power, and they get some sane, rational people in government. But I agree, as long as China is run by the CCP, it will never change. They are brainwashed into believing that Chinese people are “different”.

          I hear constantly “but we are Chinese” being used as an argument for just about everything. They believe that Chinese people are “different” somehow, and that they belong in the motherland.

          The brainwashing will never end in China, so that attitude will never change. Foreigners are just not Chinese, and never will be. Even if you were born and raised here (as a non-ethnic Chinese), they would still consider you a foreigner.

          • wacky

            the same way mitt romney brainwashed american by saying that america should lead the world???? if you want china or iran or whatever country to change then change your policy first, as i pointed out on my previous post. i have heard that many of foreigner said 2008 was the year where everything started to change why?? the biggest anti china protest all over the world see china simply wanted to host the world but the foreigner simply wanted to attack china.
            CCP is one of the problem but foreign media portrayal of china is too.

        • wacky

          became accepted and fell in love????? really became accepted and fell in love???? most westerner get the special treatment as soon as they land in china which make they feel that that is just a normal treatment they get then over time the treatment change to the normal on and they are all got freaked out by that right??
          the immigration policy reflect the needs of the country, the fact is china as well as most of the country in asia are reluctant to accept foreigner unless they really need them, and the fact is china does not have an open policy like the US, because they simply does not need them. that is to say that even overseas chinese cant become a citizen.

          and yes the olympic as many here have pointed out the year 2008 is the year where everything started to change right?? if you see what happened in 2008, anti china demonstration from LA to londong to tokyo. chinese girl on a wheel chair attacked by french mob. i guess that really help right???

          • wacky

            and what is the aim of this article anyway??? i am sure that in today world there are a lot of people moving everywhere around the world and there are also people move out of UK but they dont write something like this

      • elizabeth

        That’s not the point here wacky. The point is, the Chinese seem to be a very xenophobic lot. I have experienced it myself. Try to be nice and be their friend. They reciprocate and you think you’ve got a good genuine friendship going but they draw the line once conflict between you and another Chinese crops up.

        It’s not based on reasoning or fairness, but ‘we Chinese’ against them evil outsiders.

        Very sad.

        • linette

          ….. they draw the line once conflict between you and another Chinese crops up……..

          Elizabeth, Only people incapable of logical thinking can’t reason and understand what’s fair. Are most Chinese like that?

          • elizabeth

            I’ve actually tested out my ‘theory’ on ‘most’ Chinese in the subway.

            I observed that many Chinese have the habit of forcing themselves into seats that are already taken by squeezing in between two who are already seated. I have also tested the masses by asking them to give up their seats to people in need.

            In both cases, nobody kicked up a fuss because the needy ones were Chinese.

            But then, I decided to see if Chinese would also close on eye to foreigners or give up their seats to needy foreigners. So, I acted like one of them needy ones by rushing into the train for a seat after a tiring trip to another city.

            Boy, was I surprised by the hostility and aggressiveness of those whose seats I tried to share, even when I tried to explain that I was really tired. One young woman even used her bag to occupy the seat and all her energy to squeeze me off the seat when there was more than enough space for six of us on the stretch. And the other guy on my right stared at me, instead of the aggressor, their own kind, and continued staring even after I had apologized.

            Incidentally, earlier in the day, I was on the express train to another city and there was another foreigner who bought a ticket but ended up with his seated taken by a local. He complained to the service staff and it escalated to a hot argument because the service staff refused to help him. Guess what the rest of the locals in the train did? They shouted, ‘Kick him out of the train!”

            So, is that being reasonable or fair? Locals get away with murder while foreigners do not even get their rights addressed.

          • elizabeth

            And don’t even get me started with ‘bitchy’ Chinese ‘men’ and local women out to pick a fight with a foreigner.

          • jeffli

            I would have sat on the young girls bag and broke her iPhone! LOL

          • elizabeth

            LoL! I wouldn’t want to pay her for damages for the rest of my life.

          • jeffli

            Wow! I agree but Wow!

            I’d just walk off. Now I refuse to entertain them. Had one little tramp cling to my leg…I just started walking “wo bu dong!”
            thats it. finish! after 10 meters it was exchage of pleasantries about “grass-mud-horses” My GF (a local) kicked the silly woman in the Ass.

            If you are too soft they will walk over you. Go to Mount Emei and practice with the monkeys, stare them down, then you can deal with the local buggers.

          • jeffli

            to be fair North China is less silly this way

          • linette

            Elizabeth, what they did was wrong. Next time when you are caught in situation like this with the Chinese, tell them this in Chinese and walk away.

            “你有没有禮貌? 有没有人性? 有没有道德? 我是一個有禮貌, 有人性, 有道德的人. 我媽媽教我的. 我希望你是.”

          • elizabeth

            Wow, power to your girl! Unfortunately, I don’t have a local man to protect me. No, actually, I’d rather take your advise and walk away instead of having a local boyfriend!

            But seriously, after having a taste of their true colors, I’d rather fade into a corner like I used to do than try to win them over and gain their sympathy by behaving like one of them.

          • elizabeth

            Thanks linette. I said something similar to a middle-aged man before. I worked in getting him off my back. It’s tougher with a local woman because there is always a local man who will bully a foreigner to show off to his woman.

            But I still like China. She’s good as long as you know and accept she’ll never accept you as one of them :)

          • linette

            Well, don’t fight with them. If you really have to say something just tell them in a firm voice and walk away. This is the revised version in simplified chinese. Copy this and stick it on their head. lol…..

            你有没有礼貌? 有没有人性? 有没有道德? 我是一个有礼貌, 有人性, 有道德的人. 我妈妈教我的. 我希望你也是.

          • linette

            elizabeth, it’s hard to behave like them when you know what they are doing is wrong. In the public area it’s easy just point out their bad behavior in a calm way and walk away. At work place it’s hard to say anything because you work with them. You need to be in good relationship with them. I understand what you are saying by just blending in and fade to the corner. I used to work in some place in USA and my coworkers were very phony and back stabbers. I am friendly with them but I don’t open my heart to them. :)

          • jeffli

            China can never be like England, france, germany,usa,canada,australia and new zealand. although these countries have problems, by the second generation you’ll feel you are a citizen of that country.
            Look at how they treat that beautiful young lady Jing Lou! born in shanghai speaks better than her peers, but they treat her like crap! She is such a nice lady and totally undeserving of the crap sent to her and her mother (who loves her very much)

            China even treats its own ethnic minorities like circus clowns.
            pity,thats why Chinese can’t wait to get out of China. Its a fact!

            This racist shit is getting worse! The Chinese are becoming worse than the Japanese ever were during their imperial and feudal periods.
            It seems if they can’t honestly screw you one way then they play the righteous victim game (read some of Lu Xun’s stories)

            Even many of the middle class Chinese commenting here know this but are too embarrassed to admit it and would rather tell you you are wrong! but once pressed through logic reasoning a facts they finally admit there is a big problem here. their little bubble bursts.

            Chinese are cheating chinese, they are killing their children [melamine still!,PCBs , gargage oil, fake/poisoned foods] stealing their money, kidnapping children. Whole cities with AIDS. 1/4 population has Hep A …..c’mon!
            syphilis, herpes on the rise
            party cadres adolescent children kill people and aren’t punished justly. Its near psychotic.
            I laugh when I see these psychotic episodes on the street. they then want a piece of me for what? huh!

            I am so grateful for my good Chinese friends. they are good people and I remind them of that! their generosity is boundless.
            Their integrity is rock solid.

            INTEGRITY how to say this word in Chinese so people understand what it is?
            P- Pride in ones actions
            I- Integrity
            G – guts to stand up and say “thats wrong!”
            P-I-G
            Maybe Compulsory National service would help.

            at least it is not so crazy yet in the above mentioned countries.

          • jeffli

            Throughout the ages Chinese have had only two ways of looking at foreigners. We either look up to them as gods or down on them as wild animals. – Lu Xun

          • elizabeth

            Thanks again linette. That’s very sweet of you :)

            Yes, I can identify with what you said about the workplace. I guess the only way out of office politics is to be your own boss.

        • wacky

          so do they go with their fellow chinese against you which means “this is chinese vs foreigner” or do they just stay away from your problem which means they dont want to get in to trouble themselves?
          if they are truly xenophobic why would they reciprocate in the first place? a xenophobic will surely stay away from the foreigner.
          the truth is many people wherever they are have some sense of cautious toward foreigner, because foreigner is foreign means they dont know who you are where do you come from, etc.

          • elizabeth

            Yes, I agree wacky, but I will not gang up with my countrymen to bully a foreigner unreasonably or show double standards in the most basic of courtesy.

            In fact, it is the foreigner who bullies my countrymen, where I come from. See, we are such mild people. But to be fair, I still encounter many nice locals. My point is, the line between local and foreigner is very clearly drawn.

          • wacky

            see that is the problem with your country, foreigner can gang up and bully your people. for me, i never see this kind of thing happens in asia. the thing is people dont want to get bullied in their own home.

          • elizabeth

            That is partly correct Wacky. We can respond with hooliganism and do like some Chinese do or we could rise above the uncouth and walk away with grace. You will not see us reveling in the bandwagon of mob cowardice against our guests because face is but a shallow mask that hides the insecurity and lack of substance. And we are gracious hosts that treat our guests fairly, not as punchbags to use when we need an outlet for the frustration caused by the ones up there whom we are too scared to deal with.

    • minor

      They took his business away the usual way – he had to have a Chinese partner when he set up (due to the time – late 90′s and the fact he was in a ‘protected business’. One day he got into work to find the locks had been changed and was escorted off the property and told his so-called ‘partner’ (a govt owned company) was now running the magazine chain that he had built up from scratch and basically to piss off.

      • elizabeth

        That’s why I’d rather pay through my nose than have a Chinese partner. It seems their strategy is to acquire know-how and after that dump the source once they think they’ve got the hang of it.

        Such an approach of riding on others’ hard work will not be sustainable in the long run because businesses that outdo competitors are innovators, not copycats.

        • The Enlightened One

          True dat… but the problem is.. if you do not have a Chinese partner…

          Then who is going to do all the ass-kissing to the loathsome toad of a local official?

          • elizabeth

            True dat too, but surely there are some other ways that can get things done, and I am not talking about my ‘paws’. Right jeffli…where are you?

  • Kevin

    You should be very careful. It’s easier to shake hands with devil than attempt to do business in the west. I am a westerner who has a business in China but it’s much easier to build a business here than try to do it in the west with it’s massive taxes and a queue of ‘officials’ with their hand outstretched for yet another fee.

    • Middle Kingdum

      Wait . . what?? Are you saying that in China the “officials” aren’t stretching out their hands for yet another fee? Boy are you naive!

      • Dr SUN

        What’s your business Kevin, selling “knock offs” on the street ?
        If so I guess your right, you only have to worry about the “City police”.

        But if you do have a legit business in China you know fully well what you said is complete BS.

        • jeffli

          legit business in China? LOL! – no such thing!

      • Cooljackal

        Yeah, I agree with Dr SUN. Have you actually tried to start a business in the west? You can fill out a lot of stuff online and just pay the fees shown on the official websites for the state government. Pretty much all the information is given to you with effective and expiration dates. Is that even heard of in China? Try getting information about an updated law that applies to you from a local government employee.

        • jeffli

          west :- tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax
          China:- bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe bribe

          • Cooljackal

            You forgot to add tax to China as well. Ever seen employees at a shop in the afternoon and/or evening taping receipts in columns onto sheets of paper? Well that’s the China tax system. Collect and schedule all your “fapiaos”, record, and count every single dime that goes anywhere then pay tax. There is a lot of fapiao sharing, proxy fapiaos for companies that can’t issue them, and other things so pretty much every company has a legit book and a cash book. But no matter how you deal, the end taxes WILL be collected on exports and sales somehow. The tax department knows how to get it’s money!

            You are absolutely right about the bribes, but I would put that under tax as well :) It’s the tax of doing business. I’m just kidding. A lot of companies do bribe with money, others just give gifts like wine when tax officers visit. The tax officers do random “book checks”, which basically mean them come to your place, you offer them food and tea, they look at your books for 2 minutes, then ask you questions for 5. After which you insist on taking them to lunch at a dio coffee or some similar place, give them some foreign wine as a gift and then they make some jokes, talk then leave with a thank you. Sad.

          • Cooljackal

            I will say though that the american personal and business tax system is in dire need of an overhaul and simplification but it is still orders of magnitude better than anything in China.

  • thhh

    Most commented post in all of Chinasmack?

    • The Enlightened One

      No, I think that honor goes to the drunken British guy that tried to “rape” that girl in Beijing. But this has potential.

      [Note from chinaSMACK Moderator: List of most commented posts by year: http://www.chinasmack.com/now ]

      • The Enlightened One

        Yup, I was right.

      • http://amazon.com/author/rc richardnorth

        The Enlighted One Nobody ever got to the bottom of who the “British Attempted Rape Guy” was. Normally names and faces make it to the UK’s Daily Mail or Telegraph. To my knowledge we are not even aware of whether this person was a tourist or worker.

  • QK

    Overall the comments are spot on. I lived in China for 5 years and did everything from graduating from TCM college to learning martial arts to getting married to a Chinese to doing business consulting (all in fluent Chinese). But in the end, foreigners are only temporarily tolerated as long as you spend money, agree to the superiority of the Chinese way and don’t question anything.

    Now for my own rant to illustrate about a foreigners’ relationship with China – we can compare it being married to a Chinese, which like being a foreigner, means nothing and in some cases is detrimental. You are still and always will be a second class citizen. It’s not that all Chinese willingly try to make you feel inferior, it’s just the inability of most Chinese to accept different things and think outside the box.

    I will provide some general examples – while raising children I have to listen to lectures on things like how dumb I am to allow my children to go barefoot (the floor and mother earth poison the body through coldness). I should know this because I studied Chinese medicine but obviously foreigners are too weak minded to comprehend the deep Chinese wisdom. But, I point out, walking barefoot on grass in summer is wonderful. No matter, I am always wrong.

    Every day, every meal has to be Chinese food which I usually end up preparing myself because my wife is lazy. But when I dare make a casserole or spaghetti I get indirectly sneered at for eating garbage and wasting money on junk food.

    These 2 points are only the tip of the iceberg because the illustrate examples of ways that Chinese are unable to adapt or change. Yes, its universal to have differences in cultures but in China, it’s gotta be 100% the Chinese way (corrupt and backwards) otherwise the highway.

    • Cooljackal

      Haha, well said. I know you really wanted to type more but I think when people read what you said, they will probably have those other things already in mind.

    • Dr Hung Low

      looks like you married a peach of a girl there QK! A definite keeper!

      • http://amazon.com/author/rc richardnorth

        Dr Low Great response! I read QK’s comment again as it is either (a) true, or (b) satire at its very best. If it’s true I guess no point in going back to the West with his wife! Unless the rice cooker is steaming all day every day!

    • Alfy

      Interesting that chinese and other immigrants are immediately accepted as amercian right from the get go when they arrive (barely knowing english)but a white person can go thru all the hoops and still be as foreign as he freshly stepped foot on their soil.
      This type of hypocrisy tells me we need to change our immigration policy in the USA.

  • tai wai

    I completely agree with you! If they were taught to think, the party is afraid 1989 would happen again.

    Do you want 1989 to happen again?

    • tai wai

      Oh bloody hell. Disregard this, was meant to be a reply up thread.

      • Licken Chicken

        How about foreigners in jail, like those Baptists missionaries who got caught? I be they will be happy to leave China, and good riddance.

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