Oil Pipeline Explosion in Qingdao, Chinese Netizen Reactions

picture of Qingdao Hangdao zone explosion scene

An oil pipeline explosion occurred in the Chinese city of Qingdao last Friday…

From Phoenix Online:

On the Scene of the Qingdao Hangdao District Explosion

Shandong Province Qingdao Development Zone Pipeline Leak and Explosion Has Already Killed 35 People — According to the latest statistics from the fire and health department, as of 17:40 of the 22nd, the Shandong Province Qingdao Development Zone (namely Huangdao District) oil pipeline leak and explosion has already caused 35 deaths, 166 injured [as of 5pm on the 23rd, 52 dead, 136 hospitalized], and other casualties still being confirmed. What exploded was the Sinopec storage and transportation branch underground pipeline from the Huangdao oil depot to Weifang city during urgent repairs this morning.

Photo of the explosion scene.

Photo of the explosion scene.

Photo of victims’ body.

Photo of victims’ bodies.

Photo of victims’ bodies.

Photo of a victim’s limb.

Photo of a victim’s limb.

Photo of the surface of the road turned over in the explosion.

Photo of the surface of the road turned over in the explosion.

Photo of the oil flows into water from the leakage.

Photo of the oil leaking into the water.

Photo of medical workers carrying injured persons.

Photo of medical workers carrying an injured person.

Photo of the scene, firefighters coming to rescue.

Photo of the scene.

Photo of the scene, firefighters rushing to the rescue.

Photo of a victim's body.

Photo of a victim’s body.

Photo of the smoke taken by a netizen on plane.

Photo of the thick smoke captured by a netizen on a plane.

Photo of the smoke float to Qingdao city center.

Photo of the thick smoke floating towards Qingdao city center.

victims sent to hospital.

According to the Qingdao University Medical College Affiliated Huangdao Branch Hospital, 48 injured people were sent to the hospital, with 1 dead and 5 severely injured. The hospital has devoted their entire efforts to treating the injured. In addition, the Qingdao University Medical College Affiliated Huangdao Branch Hospital has also sent 20 medical personnel to bolster the rescue efforts.

Photo of hospital ready for receiving patience.

Photo of hospital waiting to receive patients.

Photo of medical workers carrying injured persons.Photo of medical workers carrying injured persons.

Photo of medical workers carrying injured persons.

Photo of families of the victims.

Photo of the families of the victims.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene. 

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photo of Qingdao oil pipeline explosion scene.

Photos of the scene.

Comments from Phoenix Online:

凤凰网山东省网友:手机用户

Who will take responsibility for this?

凤凰网安徽省网友:凤凰网友

The consequence of sins! Stop spending all your time on drinking/dining, on corruption, and on your mistresses. Focus more on safety, staff safety education, and engineering safety checks. You people have made the country lose so many innocent lives, so much money. Aren’t you ashamed? Are you serving the people? You are simply serving yourselves! The moths of the country!

凤凰网广东省网友:手机用户

Just what are people in the nation’s safety inspection departments doing? The lost of citizens’ lives and property, just who will come take responsibility? May the people nearby be safe!

凤凰网福建省福州市网友:fjcl7101

I mourn our innocent dead compatriots!
As we eagerly question the cause of the accident, I’d also like to ask the “related departments”: Just how many “invisible explosions” like this are buried in our living environment?!

凤凰网江苏省网友:凤凰网友 (responding to above)

They’re not going to tell you.

凤凰网广东省茂名市网友:凤凰网友

Heavens! Too horrible to look at! Just put into operation in August and already an explosion in November. Just who is responsible for the safety here, this must be thoroughly investigated, and the troublemaker ferreted out. May the deceased ascend to heaven! May the injured recover soon! May the masses use this as a lesson to avoid future accidents.

凤凰网湖北省十堰市网友:手机用户

Only knowing to raise prices everyday! This is what state-owned enterprises are like!

凤凰网广西南宁市网友:凤凰网友

Picture No. 21, such a big cement slab completely crushing a head, and it’s only a serious injury???

凤凰网广东省网友:手机用户

Such a factory just shouldn’t be built in an urban area.

凤凰网美国网友:手机用户

There is bound to be a high casualty toll, somebody must be held responsible for this.

凤凰网河北省石家庄市网友:凤凰网友

May the dead rest in peace and injured recover soon. Determine the cause of the accident and investigate responsibility. Learn a lesson from it to avoid such an accident happening again.

凤凰网山东省青岛市网友:凤凰网友

Is the [number of] casualties reliable?

凤凰网广东省网友:凤凰网友 (responding to above)

This is already a major accident, even the mayor is probably going to be investigated for responsibility.

凤凰网湖南省湘西州吉首市网友:yijiecf

Planned births, random deaths.

凤凰网浙江省杭州市网友:jxcr123

Such a devastating explosion scene, similar to that of a nuclear explosion, did the gas pipeline repair crew operate in accordance with safety rules and regulations, and did they have a hazard contingency plan beforehand? This was definitely a human disaster [caused by human error]! Who will take responsibility for this?

凤凰网江苏省网友:凤凰网友

It won’t be the fault of a “temporary worker” again, will it? Responsibility must be pursued seriously. Sinopec’s upper management cannot be exempted from liability!

凤凰网中国网友:手机用户

My house. Just how much longer can we survive! All the glass in my house was shattered.

凤凰网广东省深圳市网友:凤凰网友

The power of an atomic bomb.

凤凰网广东省网友:手机用户

Be safe Qingdao, may Qingdao be safe.

凤凰网江苏省网友:手机用户

How many people have died?

凤凰网北京市网友:唐玉峰

Hopefully, the information from the report is real!

凤凰网四川省成都市网友:lucas26

Luckily I resigned long ago from the chemical factory, otherwise…

凤凰网天津市网友:手机用户

This shabby/shoddy chemical factory, it would’ve been strange if it didn’t have an accident.

凤凰网广东省珠海市网友:凤凰网友

Gas prices are going to go up yet again, and yet again a scapegoat will be gallantly sacrificed.

The following microblog post is by Chinese internet celebrity 作业本 (“Workbook”, “Exercise Book”, “Homework Booklet”, or “Assignment Booklet”), real name Sun Jie, who has over 7.1m followers. It is currently the second hottest microblog post of the week on China’s popular Sina Weibo social network, having been reshared over 105k times with over 52k comments and 37k upvotes…

From Sina Weibo:

@作业本: Today, 2013 November 22, the beautiful seaside Qingdao city development zone experienced an explosion, and 35 strangers we have never met have forever left this world. Amongst them were street peddlers, pedestrians, pregnant mothers… They were strangers running around to make a living just like you and I. Tonight, no matter where you are, please light a candle for them, and may they be in a candle-lit heaven where they can forget their sorrows… 蜡烛

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • Middle_Kingdum

    Here I was, calmly sitting on my SOFA, when all of a sudden . . . BOOM!!

  • mr.wiener

    Some of those photos hurt to look at.

  • Germandude

    Holy fuck!

    “Photo of a victim’s limb.”

    “Photo of a victim’s body.”

    Come on cS. That’s stupid sensationalism.

    • Kai

      Those photos and captions were part of the original photo slideshow on Phoenix Online and circulated online. You’re seeing what the Chinese netizens who commented saw, which is one of the goals of our sites.

      I don’t think those images are particularly gory or graphic. I agree it is somewhat disturbing in context however.

      • Germandude

        Yeah, agreed. I just think not showing pictures of victims (or parts of them) is better. And the sentences which I quoted are a bit macabre.

        • Free Man

          I also prefer not to see such stuff (at least not first thing in the morning).

          Why not hide the images until someone clicked a button like “Show me the corpses” or similar stuff?

          • narsfweasels

            A content warning should have been posted.

          • My_honourable_lord

            ‘show me the corpses’ button. Hhahaha…..

          • filabusta

            Chinasmack — Corpse free for:
            000 days

    • My_honourable_lord

      It serves a purpose. These kinds of images desensitise the masses. Gets to a point where people who didn’t care anyway couldn’t care less for daily events. Unless of course they are told to go ballistic regarding Japan.

  • Guest23

    It’s pretty much like someone bombed these places in these pictures, damn shame with the deaths, some of the people who lived near the gas pipeline said they didn’t even know there was a pipeline or that they were trying to control the problem without giving some notice to the residents, a damn sight to look at.

  • oldmario

    hahaha!

    • My_honourable_lord

      What exactly do you find amusing? You realise how many people are dead and maimed?

      • oldmario

        more people die i feel happier!
        i wish most useless people die so the earth will be a better place.
        even you and me die,i do not mind.
        most people just waste food in this world, do not you think so?

        • My_honourable_lord

          WTF!?

          • oldmario

            most men are fuckers and most women are diggers.
            and most people are snobbish.
            no need to poison the earth.

          • Elijah

            Hello Eattot, we’re soooo pleased you have a new username.

            Same grammar though.

          • Germandude

            Haha, before reading your comment I thought “Is that really her?” Now I am convinced.

            Maybe Kai can let us know since he will surely have the IPs of every user here. I hate that switching in nicknames/IDs

          • mr.wiener

            It’s her. The grammar is more of a give away than the IPs though.

          • Germandude

            Cool. Then we can help her husband finding her…

          • mr.wiener

            My respect for Chinese men has taken a sharp rise.

        • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

          “If they’d rather die then perhaps they had better do so and decrease the surplus population”
          You sound like this guy. Guess who it is.

        • David

          I don’t remember Eattot caring that much for the Earth’s welfare.

          • Zappa Frank

            probably a big delusion, a bad moment, maybe she’s been dismissed and now would like the whole humanity feel like her, in her words there’s more against humans than anything else.. anyway she need to be hospitalized

  • moop

    well that sucks.

  • David S.

    Apparently no efforts were made to evacuate the area while the leaking pipeline was being fixed. What we see here is criminal stupidity in pictures.

    • Elijah

      Tofu construction aka building on sand.

      This is the result, expect this to happen more and more frequently as quality doesn’t improve and the number of projects continues.

    • 5,000 years of uncivilization

      There was a knock on my door around the time of the blast. I heard it and felt it but i can’t remember if the knock came before or after the blast. Probably after the blast to warn everyone in the building that the air outside had been poisoned. It should also be stressed that industrial zones should never overlap residential zones exactly for such incidences. Now the government will have to pay out big time. Let’s hope they’ve learned a lesson.

  • My_honourable_lord
  • My_honourable_lord

    Yes but those pipelines were connected to a depot/factory. At least that’s what I have understood. The article says there were urgent repairs being carried out. I bet you, well it wouldn’t be a bet because i am certain that, someone was squatting and smoking next to the pipeline while it was being repaired. Seems realistic enough.

  • My_honourable_lord

    Are you pretending to be a Japanese china hater?

  • My_honourable_lord

    Chinese Media:

    The Global Times warns that Chinese fighter jets will attack in self-defence if Japan tries to intercept them in the air defence perimeter.

    “China has not declared who the air defence identification zone is targeted at, but it will definitely fight back resolutely against wildly arrogant provocateurs to the air defence identification zone,” it concludes.

    The newspaper calls for China and Japan to set up a crisis management system for territorial disputes to avoid an outbreak of conflict.

    It also believes that the US has still “not given any indication that it would intervene directly” in a Sino-Japanese conflict.

    Western Media:

    A simmering territorial and maritime dispute in Asia erupted at the weekend as Washington warned Beijing it would back Japan militarily in any confrontation arising from China’s latest unilateral assertion of its claims.

    In a statement on Saturday, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel warned that the American government viewed the Chinese move “as a destabilizing attempt to alter the status quo in the region.” He also reaffirmed that the United States would stand by its security treaty obligations to aid Japan if it were attacked.

    • TheSOP

      All the popular comments on Sina are calling for all out war and wiping Japan off the map, a lot of nuclear holocaust proponents. Completely disgusting, should be a story in and of itself in the Western media.

      • My_honourable_lord

        Really? About the current escalation or usual stuff?

        • Kai

          About the current story of the defense zone.

          It’s similar to the comments normally left by Chinese hypernationalists and wumaos in pretty much any Chinese-Japanese clash article on Sina.

          • linette lee

            Diaoyu is right next to Taiwan. Far away from mainland Japan. Those Japanese fighter jets are asking for trouble if they fly over to taiwan and diaoyu island.

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25092156

          • linette lee
          • linette lee

            http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20120816/00016c42b25a1196ab610b.jpg

            And it’s not cool for Japan to constantly ram Chinese fishing vessels to try to sink them. Attacking the chinese fishermen fishing in their own backyard water next to Taiwan and diaoyudao. That is making Chinese very angry.

          • TheSOP

            Its well within the area of the Ryuukyuu island chain. Japan has long been an oceanic state while China has been largely continental.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Oh well, let them get on with their hate. Both sides. I just found that person below laughing at the death toll on the oil leak particularly nauseating.

          • My_honourable_lord

            What is a wumao?

          • Germandude

            Somebody that posts governmental friendly or “everything is okay” on the Chinese forums the whole time. They get paid 5 mao for doing so. It’s a way to influence the public opinion here.

            Google it for further info.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Golly gosh!

      • Cauffiel

        Why? Don’t you ever read the shit that Westerners say about Chinese on the same reports? It’s just as awful.

        • My_honourable_lord

          Indeed. And its wrong. Calling for war and wiping out any people is vile.

    • Cauffiel

      There’s only one solution to this, and no one has even talk about it public. Japan, Taiwan, and China all need to stand back a few paces and call the islands, and see who it goes to.

      • My_honourable_lord

        There are three Islands right? If this is the case, then they should toss the coin for each one and all three countries can have one each. They need to toss the coin to avoid another fight who gets the bigger island.

        • Cauffiel

          I think paper-rock-scissors would be more appropriate. A coin toss is random, and there is too much face at stake to hedge your bets on the randomness of the universe. The losing country needs to feel like it had some responsibility in losing, or it will be a grudge held for centuries to come.

  • oldmario

    haha!

  • connie

    Karma – fate following as effect from cause.

    Philippines – Qingdao ???

    • My_honourable_lord

      Well the gloating over Phillipines could now be seen as Karma but we are not among those who gloat. But yes, I do recall those nasty comments from chinese netizens.

    • Cauffiel

      No, don’t worry, those same Chinese will be back on the boards telling us what worthless dogs their comrades from Qingdao have always been. Afterall, they allowed Germans to take over the city, right??

  • Nilerafter24

    It looks like a warzone. Goodness.
    More importantly, why am I reading about this first from Chinasmack?
    China must be getting better at censoring stories.

    • My_honourable_lord

      Of course. Just give it a few days. Japan will be the main target again. This weekend’s declaration had better be posturing or, we are in for a nice little war.

    • Kai

      That’s strange because I don’t think it received little coverage in the Chinese media. cS was like 4 days behind the story (3 days, Jamie was working on it starting Sunday).

  • My_honourable_lord

    I’d like to know what China is doing about foreign tourists in this city and how they are being helped. There is no mention in the news regarding foreigners.

    • linette lee

      no, I haven’t heard China hotel kicked out foreign tourists because they couldn’t pay. But since China public transportation and airport is still operating normally, I assume it is still safe for the foreign tourists to move around or leave.

  • nqk123

    Like the US and many nations, China needs enemies to unite it people

    • My_honourable_lord

      Take a look at Japan’s allies. Then the allies’ allies. Then look at China’s allies. Then, re-think your need for enemies.

      • linette lee

        Come on, the whole world knows Japan is just one of USA bitch bending over. Why can Japan deal with China by herself like the great nation the empire of the sun?
        I think what irritate China more is watching all these bitches like south korea, Japan, etc …Asia countries constantly bending over their ass for USA with a big smile on their face. It’s embarrassing for Asians. lol.

        • My_honourable_lord

          I’ll only respond to responsible comments.

          • linette lee

            I don’t think China should use military force to deal with its neighbors. China should put more effort to maintain peace in Asia. Do more trading that will benefit other Asia nations economy as well as China economy. Keep them close tight with China. Resolve dispute peacefully using contract and agreement. Trade with them and pay them.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            Doubt that’s gonna happen without some serious restructuring of the government. As it is, their infrastructure is filled with old farts determined to keep the scars of the last couple wars burning so the population can redirect their anger outside the country while problems inside go unnoticed.

          • linette lee

            This is new era.. 2013. Asia needs to unite.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            Needs to. But I don’t see it happening in the forseeable future. Too many grudges that neither side is willing to let go of.

          • linette lee

            And USA is flaming all the time like what they did with China donation to philippine. Calling China cheap and wrong all over there media. Not helping the situation. USA mishandling diaoyu Island to Japan after wwII, instead back to Taiwan/china..causing dispute in Asia. I don’t like USA foreign policy.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            You’re doing just what their government is doing: finding a solution to an internal problem by projecting it on an external object.

            Looking in the wrong places.

          • linette lee

            no…but USA is flaming to contain China’s power from expanding. Both USA and China act like a55holes sometimes. Encouraging peace should be the way to go.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            No, the US is defending its ally. It’s hands are tied much in the way it is with Israel. They are allied with said nations and if either of them get into a conflict, the US is more or less forced to support them. The problem lies with Japan and China stirring up shit over a few oil rich islands.

          • linette lee

            So the same can be said about Chna and north korea. China is pretty much forced to defend its ally north korea.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            China’s government is afraid of a reverse Domino effect, that if
            communist nations around them stop being communist, they’ll follow.
            That’s why they still support North Korea, despite it being the Somalia
            of Asia.

            If the US fails to support Japan or South Korea, it destroys the trust it has with other nations(I know hard to believe but other nations still have SOME faith in US defense).

            If China fails to support North Korea, the regime will collapse, bringing millions of North Korean refugees flooding into China, and demolish its economic infrastructure. Different reasons.

          • linette lee

            come on..your opinion is double standard.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            You’re gonna have to be specific with that one, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • Kai

            The double standard is you idealizing the reasons for the US to intervene on behalf of its allies while demonizing the reasons for China intervening on behalf of its allies. Quite simply, they always intervene on behalf of their own interests.

            Technically, back during the Korean War, the reasons were the same for both sides. China feared the capitalists and the US feared the communists.

            Nowadays, you can euphemize any US action as an issue of “trust” and denigrate any Chinese action as the same “buffer state” argument as before (which I’m not denying as valid), but that’s unfair. The US sees Japan, South Korea, and its allies around China as “buffer states” too. Yes, in a slightly different notion of “containment”, but still areas (and vectors) of poitical and military influence and control, just like China and North Korea. Sure, there’s “trust” but that could be said of both sides and their allies, and the truth is there are far more simple practical interests at play.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            But I’m not demonizing China. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. North Korea is quite easily the worst ally to have, and I sympathize with the Chinese for having to put up with it. I also realize that they need to continually support the nation otherwise their own country goes down the crapper, as millions of North Korean refugees flood their border and destroy any possible chance of stability in the growing nation.

          • Kai

            I apologize if “demonizing” isn’t an accurate word. I was thinking of the opposite of “idealizing”. My point is you make US intervention sound like obligation and duty, while making Chinese intervention sound like self-preservation and self-interest. The former sounds decidedly more sympathetic, selfless, and “positive” than the latter…when the hard truth of the matter is that intervention by both would purely be for self-interest. You said “different reasons” and superficially, that may be true, but fundamentally, there is only one reason: self-interest.

            Back in the Korean War, both countries sold their populations on military intervention with high-sounding moralistic arguments (helping allies, friends, preventing the spread of communism/attack of capitalist imperialism, etc.,) when the actual reasons were simple self-interest.

            Hope my disagreement makes sense to you.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            Well yes, if China was intervening anything I’d agree, but they set up a situation where it does look like self-interest

            China isn’t intervening. They are the aggressors in this case. They want the island. Japan said no. China is threatening with force. Japan asks US for help.

            If it was between two nations supported by each side respectively I can see the self-interest. But I don’t see what Japan is so vitally important for that can’t be fulfilled by any other island in the pacific.

          • Kai

            My original comments were about military intervention in general.

            In the hypothetical scenario of China making a move to take the islands, I agree that’s aggression and not intervention, which falls outside of my point. In that scenario, the US may say it is intervening out of treaty obligations to help an ally but ultimately it is still choosing to do so out of self-interest. My point is to not buy into the justifications that are sold to the public and recognize things for what they actually are.

            Japan pretty much covers the east flank of China and you’re familiar with US military bases in Japan, right? Japan isn’t just a forward operating base, it’s also a buffer state and social, economic, and political counter-balance to China. In WW2, China was the ally. Once Japan was subjugated and the communists took over the mainland, Japan became the ally. Japan isn’t entirely a puppet of the US, but it is still the country you know versus the country you don’t (China).

          • Germandude

            Why did you delete all your comments?

          • linette lee

            I think the chinese just want to be fish there without being attacked by japanese. That island is closer to taiwan and china. It’s their backyard water.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            No, they showed no interest in those islands until there was oil involved. Suddenly they start caring. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out a resource-starved developing nation will want to secure as much as it can…

          • linette lee

            There was outcry when Japan coastgurad sunk and killed chinese fishermen fishing there. Chinese were very upset.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            About as upset as South Korea when the North smashed a South Korean village with an artillery strike.

            That doesn’t change the stakes, only adds an extra tick against ‘the enemy’.

          • linette lee

            Koreans are just strange. Killing their own people and dividing their own nation with foreign help USA and China. Now it’s too late and more difficult for them to reunite their own countrymen. Unless the south korea with stronger military force start invasion against the tyrant Kim to save the north korean brothers. But the south won’t do it. The south koreans want china and usa to do it for them. crazy.

            But Usa and china won’t do it neither. Nobody wants to die. So it will be forever like this….no end.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            The South won’t do it because Krazy Kim has nearly every missile and artillery system aimed at Seoul. The moment, the war goes hot, the South Korean capital will be a smoking hole in the ground. The South doesn’t want that because millions will die. The US doesn’t want that because they’ll have to retaliate. Possibly with nukes. And if that happens, then the US will be obligated to stick around and rebuild the new system in the nation like they did with Japan, which they don’t want to do as that is EXPENSIVE as hell.

            China doesn’t want that because then that will drag them into a war they can’t afford. Like literally. The war will involve them trying to keep those Korean refugees contained which will be a nightmare, while coordinating an attack against the US, which still outguns the Chinese navy with the Pacific Fleet.

          • linette lee

            so yeah….north korea will forever stay like that. Nobody wants to die. Not china, not south korea, not usa.
            The only people that’s dying are the north koreans with south koreans watching. Their own family.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            And that is why any fight between Japan and China is foolish. Same outcome, different players.

          • linette lee

            That’s why asia needs to unite. China should put more effort into maintaining peace. Japan should be more open to stay in peace with China instead keep using USA to threaten China like a pussy.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Japan does not actually need America. Believe it or not.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            Well that would mean BOTH sides need to find peaceful resolution. That means China needs to not make some ‘defense zone’. China has a military, Japan has a Self Defense Force. Like using a flamethrower on a cracker.

          • linette lee

            uSA, china, Japan are just a55holes with their foreign policy. They have no problem to go to war sending young men and women to get killed. The old politicians sit home with their families.
            You wonder if it is required that the presidents of China, usa, japan and all the old politicians are required to go to the front line battlefield to supervise the warzone, do you still think they want to go to war. lol …hahahahah…..

          • nqk123

            when did Japan sunk and killed Chinese fishermen. I’ve never heard of this? Are you talking about hundred of years ago?

          • linette lee

            my mistake, I don’t the Chinese fishermen died.

          • Zappa Frank

            you repeated this thing several times as an accuse against japan (by the way, seem to me was the only concrete accuse) and now it comes out never happened? what did you complain for then?

          • linette lee

            The Chinese fisherman were killed by sKorean coastguards on different stories. Some drown when SK boat rammed and sunk the Chinese boat. One fisherman got shot killed. A sk guard was killed also. It was just messed up. The Chinese fishermen shouldn’t be in SK water.
            Japan is a different story. The Japanese coastguards constantly harass ramming Chinese fishermen boats trying to sink them. They are just dangerous and aggressive. They can say all they want it’s their water and island with a piece of contract agreement signed between Japan and USA, but Chinese don’t recognize that treaty. China never agreed to that. It’s like some thief break into your home by force with weapons, then sold your house with his friend without your agreement. On top of that attack you violently because you are trying to get back into your own home. lol ….like WHAT?????

          • Zappa Frank

            as Chinese maybe you are a bit too much emotionally involved. For you are Chinese islands, for japan are Japanese, fact is that were under American administration till americans decided to give them to japan. I don’t know who was the ruler before, but during ww2 many countries lost lands, and you have to admit that china didn’t give a fuck about those islands until it came out there may be some gases or oil..same as souther china sea islands.. no one gave a fuck and forgot them but all of sudden it’s inviolable Chinese territory.. No, even in the best option it’s not like you say a thief break in your home and stole, it’s more like you leave something outside and someone take it while you don’t care..
            About fishermen, to push them out of territorial seas is a normal habit of every single state, it happen EVERYWHERE and yes, most time you have to be aggressive even shooting one or two. don’t play dumb, fishermen are not the problem we’re talking about here…it’s not for fishing that they want those islands…

          • linette lee

            I don’t think China was in the position to care during WWII. They were in the middle of crisis with Japan invasion. But this fishermen thing with Japan has been going on for a while as far as I can remember. It’s not something new. Maybe new to you.
            I am not crazy emotional. I am a happy gal. During debate on subject I do stand my ground.

          • TheSOP

            Its not your home, never was your home. The fact you can be such an utter hypocrite as China oppresses and occupies the homes of millions of Tibetan, Mongolians, Uygurs and other once free Asians is telling of the hypocrisy and chauvinism that pollutes the minds of Sino-hegemonists. Not only that but now you are trying to steal the islands and seas of Southeast Asians, killing and harassing their coastguards and fishermen while depleting with wild and reckless abandon the natural resources of the region. Disgusting.

          • TheSOP

            Your country men are the ones running around killing South Korean coast guards and killing Southeast Asian fishermen while stealing their lands and seas, you have zero room to talk, zilch.

          • mr.wiener

            Her countrymen would be honkies and Yanks bro.

          • TheSOP

            Is she green carded? Wow. Its a bit troubling that so many bring their nationalistic baggage along with them, why become a citizen of a country you seem to despise (based upon the above comments) and which is in direct opposition to a country you seem to care far more for despite is very transparent expansionist and hegemonic agenda.

          • Germandude

            You’ll often find people without brain lacking a spine as well.

          • linette lee

            No retard TheSOP, keep your filthy mouth to yourself. I know you are very ignorant and it’s hard for me to educate you. People born in HK can have dual citizenship in USA and HK.
            Now I know why they say China attracts losers. You and Germandude are prime examples.

          • Germandude

            Shut up simpleton.

          • TheSOP

            Sounds like you are making more of a cutting indictment of China than of people like Germandude and myself. In fact I’m in Asia but not in China, the reality is there are many places in Asia where I enjoy living, working, and studying much more than China… remember China is but a part of East Asia.

            Its too bad we give passports to people like you who only come to the US for utilitarian purposes but have no understanding of the country or its principals. Even worse there are ethno-chauvinists such as yourself who hold allegiances to imperialistic and aggressive state such as China based simply on such an archaic and fascist concept as ethnicity. You crying thief is patently ridiculous as the state you hold allegiance to has violently and forcefully occupied the houses of 10s of millions of independent peoples, continuing to oppress them within their own houses while encouraging your kinfolk to take up residency in the houses of the Tibetans and many others. That you cry about some minuscule islands that China never actually possessed while defending a country where over half of its territory is lands stolen from other is amazingly hypocritical.

            Yes I am angry because the revisionist irridentist regime you support is the single greatest threat to peace and prosperity in East Asia, a region that is otherwise progressing rapidly and liberalizing. That you hold an American passport with one hand while advocating on behalf of an irridentist aggressor and totalitarian dictatorship with the other is disgusting. I’ve served my country, America isnt just a utilitarian concept to me, to be used when convenient and thrown to the wayside when it opposes an increasingly facsict regime you support largely because of you native background. As it stands with your words and true allegiances you are no compatriot of mine.

          • Germandude

            Respect for telling it like it is and how hypocritical her argumentation is about China, Japan and Korea, while spitting on the US eventhough she chose living there and enjoys all its benefits.

          • mr.wiener

            You seem to have me pegged as a “China apologist” I’m neither that or a China Basher, just somewhere in the middle, a little place I like to think of as reality.

          • TheSOP

            btw honkies is an ethnic slur and I assert my prerogative to be offended. 3 2 1, I’m offended!

          • mr.wiener

            Kiss my donkey :)

          • TheSOP

            Thats better. Donkeys are race neutral.

          • mr.wiener

            True, every race has donkeys.

          • linette lee

            Chinese fishermen shouldn’t be fishing in the water of south korea. They should be arrested and not killed. They shouldn’t kill SK coast guards neither.
            Are you talking from your a55. You’ve been talking from your a55 in CS. Where is your brain if you have one?

          • Kai

            I don’t think “allies” is a justifiable excuse to be honest. That shit resulted in WWI. The US should support Israel or Japan because that’s in their interest or what’s “right” in their perspective, not simply because their “hands are tied”. God help them if they ever go to war and then end up using that weak excuse to explain their choice, because it IS a choice. No one is truly obligated to support a side against their will. Imagine China going to war for North Korea and saying their “hands were tied”. No one would buy that shit in a million years.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            Well then how do you justify what is right? Support China who needs oil to support its development that cannot afford to slow down? Or support Japan, who only has a Self Defense Force and is dealing with a stagnant economy?

            The US is kinda obligated to support Japan at the moment because of the Security Treaty of 1951, which states if either nation is threatened, they will both face the threat together. In 2012 it was settled that the US will treat the Senkaku islands as Japanese territory IF the Japanese are attacked over it and will thus support Japan.

          • Kai

            In geopolitics, there’s rarely any objective “right”, just interests and the power to achieve or protect those interests. If there were an objective right, there wouldn’t be such vast disparities of wealth and living standards between nations in this world.

            The US would support Japan even without the treaty because it has more influence and control over Japan than it does over China. Japan is an extension of US military and political power, which is useful for containing any geopolitical threat a rising China may pose to US interests not only in the region but worldwide.

            What’s important is understanding that if Japan were militarily attacked by China over the islands, the US would intervene NOT because it feels sorry for Japan’s SDF or stagnant economy, but because its interests in having Japan as a forward operating base and “friendly nation” is being threatened. It would intervene to protect that extension of its power, not out of some altrusitic notion of helping out the underdog with a token defense force and stagnant economy.

            But it’d be a safe guess that the US would spin its intervention on such a sympathetic narrative, of fulfilling its treaty obligations, of protecting its allies, an ally with only a “self defense force”, etc. because the argument that it wants to maintain its power projection in the Far East would effectively validate any nation’s argument for expanding its power projection (such as China’s and its recent efforts to expand its sphere of military power).

          • TheSOP

            China isn;t the US, and Japan isnt North Korea, stop being so reactionary.

          • Kai

            I didn’t say China is the US and Japan is North Korea. I said people wouldn’t buy the “allies” explanation if China used it, so they should think about why they buy it when it involves the US and Japan? The reason is because of subjective bias and not any objective validity in the “allies” explanation.

          • TheSOP

            Again the way you weigh in and on what side (bypassing the utterly ignorant nonsense posted by Linnette) is illustrative of the bias that you bring, subtly or not, to the issue of China.

          • Germandude

            Is it just me or are most of linette’s comments simply showing as ” . ” ?

            Her comments were the most compressed bullshit I read in a long time and they rightfully got downvoted.

            Either she deleted them by herself or some mod jumped in. I am confused.

          • TheSOP

            I can see them. She jumped off the fenqing cliff, I’m not sure whats up with that but it seems sometimes Chinese who go to the US get hyper-reactionary instead of opening their minds to constructive criticisms… the seems to be the case with Linnette. Contrasting that to many Vietnamese students I have met is interesting because the majority of them exhibit the opposite effect.

          • Germandude

            I read some of the comments a couple of hours ago and wanted to reply at a later stage when I have time (like in now). Now, they just show as “.”, that’s it.

            Nothing for me to write then.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Maybe she was drinking last night and lost the plot. Woke up to see what she had done and deleted/edited them with a dot. Just to clarify one of my comments in case fellow members get the wrong idea:

            My comment stating “Don’t you live in America? Whose bitch are you?” was in response to linette calling Japan and other Asian countries, America’s bitch.

          • linette lee

            Your comments about China and Chinese are nothing constructive, instead they are filled with prejudice and complete bias. You are filled with hatred toward china and Chinese. And that clouded your judgement.

          • Kai

            I think you’re way too eager to categorize people as biased for China. Just because I didn’t feel like bothering with Linette’s comments here doesn’t mean I implicitly agree with them. I’m not sure why you’re so eager to assume that. I’ve had lengthy, maddening arguments with linette in the past and, like others here, have become demoralized in trying to reason with her because it is so difficult to get through to her and she has a penchant for responding with frustrating disregard for what you’ve said. Should I assume you implicitly agree with all the nonsense that other people post just because you didn’t weigh in on them?

            Don’t be ridiculous.

            I had a very specific point in response to AGDM and it is the defensibility of the “allies” explanation. How the hell is that illustrative of the bias I bring to the issue of China?

          • Germandude

            Kai, quick question. Several of her comments show as “.” to me. So just the dot. I refreshed my browser but it’s still the same. Is the problem on my end or did she delete her comments/did a cS moderator delete them?

          • Kai

            I can still see them because I must’ve loaded this page before she edited them all into periods but the backend shows that almost all of her comments over the past 13 hours have been edited like this (effectively deleting them). I guess she regrets her comments.

            Our local database still has her original comments but editing is a privilege of Disqus users so if she doesn’t want people to see what she wrote, we’ll respect that.

          • Germandude

            No blame on cS or its moderators.

            Just another retard without backbone (linette). Nothing to see here. Move on.

            PS: Thanks for clarifying Kai.

          • mr.wiener

            We all have bad days.

          • Germandude

            Having bad days is the norm with her nowadays. Especially getting worse during the last couple of months.

          • TheSOP

            Wonder if it corresponds with her move to the US, whats the back story…?

          • Germandude

            Don’t know, don’t really care. Sure as hell, the US is responsible for this as well though. As always for everything.

          • linette lee

            What don’t you shxt up you retard germandude?

          • Germandude

            English, bitch, do you speak it?

          • linette lee

            no, I’m speaking German.

          • Germandude

            As in most things, you are failing badly…

          • linette lee

            I don’t regret those comments. I deleted them because it’s Thanksgiving and I didn’t want to upset the Japanese, Americans, Koreans, Philippine people. Those were my true feeling about how I see these nations deal with each other.

          • Middle_Kingdum

            Okay. Thanks for pointing that out.

          • TheSOP

            If you are saying the US has a choice then of course we do. China also has a choice; it has enjoyed decades of rapid growth thanks in large part to a peaceful East Asia with open seas and minimal conflict with a strong US presence. Now China is making a choice, not the US, to unilaterally change the status quo in East Asia by taking expansionist territorial claims based on rubbish historical evidence completely out of line with international norms.

            You are right about just one thing it seems, there is a choice. China is making the wrong one.

          • mr.wiener

            The dance continues.

          • TheSOP

            ~~Que Romantic~~

          • mr.wiener

            All I’ll say is:
            1, Nations have neither permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.
            2. Out of all the nations that will f*ck you, the Americans will probably give you the best reach around.

          • TheSOP

            1. How 19th century and quaint, in effect a simple apologist totem.

            2. If modern Germany, Japan, and Korea are the result of being fucked by America thats one hell of a reacharound!

          • mr.wiener

            Care to explain to a poor Aussie boy [better use small words] how that is apologist, and who I’m apologizing for?

          • TheSOP

            I’m just a honky, hell if I know, just sounded purdy I re’con.

          • Kai

            That countries have a choice in whether they intervene or not is part of what I’m saying.

            I’m not sure it is quite justifiable say “China’s growth” is because of “a peaceful East Asia with open seas and minimal conflict”, and “a peaceful East Asia with open seas and minimal conflict” is because of “a strong US presence”. For one thing, the US has been a participant in East Asian conflicts over these decades. For another, it’s hard to know what East Asia would’ve been like without a “strong US presence”.

            The US would like to think or say all hell would’ve broken out but we don’t actually know, do we? It can be argued that if the US didn’t seek to have a strong presence in East Asia for its own interests, East Asia could have developed on its own and worked out its own problems. We have no idea. Alternate history is fun, and it’s somewhat demeaning to inadvertently suggest East Asians couldn’t have charted their own course with the US as some sort of benevolent savior and peacekeeper.

            China is indeed making a choice to change the status quo in East Asia because it doesn’t see the status quo as being in its interests. It sees the status quo as being in the interests of the US. It’s geopolitics. The US doesn’t want to give up what it has and China on some level feels it’s interests are hampered if it doesn’t change the status quo.

            Yep, expansionism sold on questionable historical claims, that’s what’s being sold to the public. Whether that’s completely out of line with international norms is kinda silly though because there’s really no norm. Or perhaps, the norm is what you can get away with, which has been proven time and time again throughout history.

            China is making the “wrong” choice from the perspective of others. It clearly thinks it is making the “right” choice from its own perspective. In geopolitics, there’s rarely, if ever, any objective “right” or “wrong”. What is more important is whether or not they regret the choice they’re making, and that remains to be seen.

          • TheSOP

            Well I think we can reference China’s economic and societal well being prior to 改革开放 when it operated outside of the US dominated system in East Asia; 10s of million of Chinese died under the policies of the CCP, China invaded and occupied territories of other formerly independent nations, and it was largely reviled in East Asia. Since 1975 the US has not engaged in an active conflict in East Asia and relative to most other regions of the world East Asia has known peace. Relatively open economic systems and technological linkages with the West and the Japan and Korea fostered economic growth and China has been without question the largest beneficiary of this… China would be nowhere near where it is today without participating in this system, albeit with a fair degree of merchantalist tendencies that have hurt the US and other Asian states.

            But at least you acknowledge that it is China who is making the choice to challenge the status quo, and I think we can judge the morality of it relative to current international norm; no other major state has opened up the kind of broad expansionist claims that we see China doing now. As for whose interests they serve, thats a good questions, but China should at least have the face to not pretend they are standing up for Asian interests as they steal the lands of other Asians. China’s actions are a threat to world peace like we have not seen in generations, and simply writing them off from a morally agnostic point of view that they “are just serving China’s interests” is foolhardy and desertion of ones responsibility as a member of the global community to assert your voice no matter how small, because we live in a world where one state’s “regrets” are written in the blood of millions of other humans.

          • Kai

            It sounds like you’re crediting the US for the China’s “Reform and Opening Up” and/or a system of capitalistic international trade in East Asia, but that’s a big stretch. China didn’t join a system created by the US; it rejoined a system that has existed throughout history long before the US and was demonstratably producing more economic wealth for more people than Mao’s disastrous version of communism.

            If you’re going to blame the failures and deaths of Mao’s policies on China “operating outside the US dominated system in East Asia”, shall we blame the failures and deaths at the hands of governments allied with the US on the US? A lot of nasty shit happened in SK and TW during the same period and these were governments operating inside your so-called “US-dominated system in East Asia”.

            The US has helped its allies in many various ways, but I think you’re crediting the US too much for their successes and accomplishments.

            China has earned the ire of its neighbors for its actions. So did Japan. The difference is that Japan is neutered now and China is not. I’d definitely fear a rising China, but it doesn’t mean every fear is legitimate.

            To the extent that China claims its actions are in the interests of other countries, that’s definitely as questionable as Japan’s advancement of the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or whatever it was called. I have no problem scoffing about that. However, your “China’s actions are a threat to world peace” is kinda bordering on fear-mongering. Aren’t there so many things we can say are threats to world peace? US support of Israel? Sanctions against Iran or NK? Drone warfare against civilians?

            I’m not sure this sort of characterization is that useful beyond making things emotional. I don’t think recognizing China’s actions as it pursuing its own interests is anything like “writing them off”. I’m not sure why you do. Is there a need for you to euphemize the actions of those whose side you’re on and demonize the actions of those whose side you aren’t on? Is that really helpful or does it just trick yourself into feeling better about what is ultimately different sides pursuing their own interests?

            My refusal to idealize one side and demonize the other is not me deserting my responsibility as a member of the global comunity to assert my voice. That was poetic but ultimately nonsense. Substituting idealized excuses and narratives for the pursuit of one’s own interests is where unnecessary blood is shed because people have the wrong idea of what they’re fighting for.

          • TheSOP

            No, never credited US for GaigeKaifang. China never participated in such an advanced and open international order previously where there existed a degree of equality between states. Such a system was never before seen under the Sino-centric regional system that China dominated nor the Western colonial system that typified Asia for the past century and a half. The system China rejoined was qualitatively and quantitatively different from what existed previously and its backbone was the US, technology, capital, and military. China joined this system and enjoyed it benefits and would be a relative backwater had it not (as the Indians can attest with regret).

            Yes a lot of nasty shit happened in regimes under the US system. But putting Gwangju in the same boat as GLF and GPCR is ridiculous and we both know it. Koreans enjoy the freedom to research and critique their history and America’s role in it instead of engaging in wholesale state sponsored revisionism and censorship. And blaming the US for such an events as if it was the active governing power with the locals having zero agency is completely disingenuous and you know it. In fact it reeks like a cheap Tu Quoque, I can only presume you are playing devils advocate.

            China’s actions are a threat to regional peace and stability and due to some of the rhetoric regarding nuclear weapons bandied around by actively commissioned PLA officers I don’t think it is fear mongering to say that world peace is under threat by emotionally driven hypernationalists who may or may not operate under robust command and control structures. In fact the cancer that is face in Chinese society may push some to take actions not considered rational by outside observers, especially in situations where China takes a decisive loss. China has a long history of external aggression and expansion especially under the current regime and they are walking the path of 1930s Japan. Perhaps people “fear mongered” about Japanese fascism then… they were right. Better to be vigilant.

          • Kai

            China never participated in such an advanced and open international order previously where there existed a degree of equality between states.

            So you’re saying the US created this “advanced and open international order”? That it kindly ushered SK and Japan into it? That members of this “order” have a “degree of equality” between them? How do you define this “degree of equality”? With Japanese and South Korean trade protectionism?

            I’m pretty certain capitalistic international trade is something the Chinese has participated in, and there really isn’t any real “equality” when it comes to an international system of trade built on such things as comparative advantages.

            Look, to be clear yet again, there is no doubt that the US has influenced the course of history in East Asia but I think you are overstating and overcrediting the US as some sort of benevolent benefactor and peacekeeper, which is still somewhat insulting to pretty much all of Asia. Again, we have no idea how things may have developed absent US pursuit of its interests in East Asia. Therefore, “referencing China’s economic and societal well being prior to 改革开放 when it operated outside of the US dominated system in East Asia” is ultimately a fallacious argument. You’re ultimately trying to suggest an indebtedness from China to the US but it is overly and unhelpfully broad.

            If the US didn’t pursuit its interest in East Asia by seeking to militarily contain “communism” and expanding its military reach, is it not conceivable that Mao’s China may have pursued different courses of action in economics, politics, and military? What would SK or Japan or even TW look like if the US didn’t make them its buffer states?

            Maybe North Korea would’ve taken over the South? But are we so sure the South would look like the North Korea of today? Or would remaining a unified country without the influence of US interests resulted in a different country altogether? Would that Korean state have experimented with communism and then given it up altogether instead of using the US and a divided homeland as an excuse to turtle up into a hermit state? If China could reverse course from Mao’s pseudo-communist trajectory, how certain are we that things wouldn’t have turned out just fine but differently than what we have today, the product of US interventionism and interests in East Asia?

            So crediting the US with the current world order has very limited application. You overweight US agency when it suits you and dismiss it when it doesn’t. That’s my objection here.

            Your last paragraph is just fear-mongering to me. Even if you turned out to be right, it still doesn’t change the fact that it is fear-mongering by definition. I’m still sad you harbor and invoke the exoticized notion of “face” when your use of it applies just as well to US military actions in recent history. You will never understand why China does what it does if you insist on exoticizing their motivations as some concept of “face” you cannot understand. When we as a people have done so much to research and understand why past wars have happened, you are still blackboxing your perceived enemy’s behavior. Peace comes from mutual understanding and finding common ground, but you’re there suggesting there is a “cancer” utterly foreign to your understanding that drives Chinese people’s behavior. That, I think is a greater threat to peace and stability, the willingness to “otherize” the “other”.

          • TheSOP

            You went off on a giant hypothetical which I will not indulge in. Simple fact; Mao and CCP operated outside of the mainstream international order for three decades and wrecked unprecedented disaster on China with 10s of millions of dead. No speculation there, simple fact of history.

            Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and a large part of Southeast Asia participated in an open economic system that relied heavily on trade and investment with the US and included large technology transfers. Again this is demonstrated fact. These countries are by and large better off economically, socially, and politically for having done so. Again no speculation.

            Does China have a debt to the US? Well it certainly enjoyed the benefits that the US system brought to it, even while stealing fruit in the form of massive aggressive theft of US IP and technologies and aggressive merchantalist economic schemes which have severely damaged America’s economy (US politicians of course owe their share here) and those of its Asian competitors. You think China would be where it is today without participating in this system? Please…

          • Kai

            Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and a large part of Southeast Asia participated in an open economic system that relied heavily on trade and investment with the US and included large technology transfers.

            I can argue about “open economic system” but sure, I’ll accept this as “demonstrated fact”. But…

            These countries are by and large better off economically, socially, and politically for having done so. Again no speculation.

            No, the notion that these countries would not be better off if they didn’t do so IS speculation…because we have no idea. That’s the problem with alternate histories. We have no idea how things might have developed if these countries operated without the US pursuing its interests in East Asia. I think you dismissed this as a hypothetical you didn’t care to “indulge in” but this is the point of contention.

            You speculate that things would be worse for these countries without the US and thus the US should be credited for their current situations. I’m simply saying we can’t be certain that things would be worse and that influences how the US should be credited.

            History cannot be changed, but it’s kinda laughable to heap glory upon oneself assuming that the world couldn’t have figured out an equally valid and acceptable future without oneself and one’s actions. That’s what you’re doing on behalf of the US, painting it as some sort of benevolent benefactor and peacekeeper that China and East Asia should be thanking. A more accurate representation is that the US pursued its interests and created an order that ultimately benefited itself. To equal extent, nations that are part of this order participate because they are compelled to and willing to. Their achievements were as much facilitated by the order as by their own choices and efforts.

            But is this the only workable “order”? I don’t think so. Therefore, the US should be associated with this order but there are limits to how much we should laud the US and suggest countries who participate in this order should feel indebted to the US. It’s easy to compare this order with another order and declare one more desirable than the other, but there are many other possible orders.

            China dreams of an order that isn’t US-centric, where the world order is more conducive to its own interests. That’s why it’s feeling its way, seeing what it can change and where the US will hold or give way. If the Japanese had their way, they’d rather have their Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere with a Japan-centric order than being double-tapped and forced into a US-shaped world order. The South Koreans are mighty happy to not be North Korea right now but it is not inconceiveable to them that a unified successful Korean state could exist in an alternate history.

          • TheSOP

            Oh but to the contrary we have many sample countries to reference that didn’t participate; DPRK, PRC, Burma, Vietnam. Please dont pretend its utter speculation, we can see how those who didnt participate fared even as they traded amongst themselves. Come on, something this basic you shouldn’t be relying on me to point out… unless you are playing devils advocate for the fun of it.

            Now how the region would have fared had the US exited completely after the war is a hypothetical not worthy of speculating on because it is indulging in a rather meaningless exercise, you are alone in that I am afraid.

            So if you still have a point in that regard please feel free to point it out.

          • Kai

            You’re not quite understanding the crux of my objection to your characterization. Let me try another tact.

            You know how some Chinese people annoy us when they say the Uighurs or Tibetans should feel indebted to China for everything they have today such as modernization and increased literacy rates or whatever? You saying China should feel indebted to the US for its modern growth is fundamentally similar to this. The same sort of retorts and objections that apply to the former apply to the latter.

            I’m not playing devil’s advocate. You think I’m arguing something I’m not.

            Your point is quite simple: China benefited from joining the world order promoted by the US. Other countries that had joined benefited, which is demonstrated by their situations relative countries that didn’t join it. China should therefore thank the US.

            My point is also quite simple: How much credit, thanks, or feelings of indebtedness anyone should accord the US for promoting a world order that served its own interests should consider whether or not that US-centric world order was the only one that could’ve been viable.

            All demands for appreciation are predicated on the assumption that there was only one alternative and that alternative is worse. On the scale of historical geo-politics, that’s mode of thinking is extremely limited and faulty. When you understand that, you’ll hopefully feel less entitled to other people appreciating you for you doing what you believed to be in your own interests.

          • TheSOP

            //edit//posted below

          • TheSOP

            I still find it interesting that this is the point in the line of discussion where you decide to interject.

          • Middle_Kingdum

            Linette, you should stick to talking about HK and Taiwan fashion and culture. You don’t know shit about foreign policy.

          • linette lee

            What is your opinion on foreign policy my dear?

          • linette lee

            USA needs all China neighbor nations to contain China rise in power. I know China is an asshole too. It’s still developing.

          • My_honourable_lord

            How about the world needs to unite?

          • linette lee

            That too.

          • TheSOP

            That is just double speak for bow down to China, fk that. Asia will unite in opposing Chinese hegemonism, that is the uniting force, and America is their ally.

        • My_honourable_lord

          Too much hate in your comment.

          • linette lee

            no, seriously. I really think why China shows no respect to some of these Asia countries is because it’s embarrassing to watch the Asians like a great nation like Japan bending over their ass for USA with a smile. That alone cause China to lose respect for Japan. That is why the Chinese netizens always tell Japan to run to USA for help like a pussy ready to be fxcked anytime. lol. Japan, korea, philippine, those Asian nations are like second class nations under USA.
            JAPAN..empire of the sun……no more.

          • My_honourable_lord

            So Chinese people only hate Japan because they don’t like the warm relations between Japan and the US? Is THAT the real reason?

            Other Asian countries? So China has no designs on their airspace and waters? China is only upset that they have good relations with the USA and the West?

            So whyyyyy, do so many chinese dream of going to america? You included. Why do you live in America? Don’t you feel hypocritical?

            ps. so in the same train of thought, chinese people call hong kong chinese the dogs of the british. You agree full heartedly with that sentiment I presume. Being from hk and all….

          • Germandude

            Why even bother?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Yes, you are right. She won’t be getting any responses from me.

          • Lord_Helmet

            Replying to your comments is like holding a conversation with a dog. I picture you reading the replies with your head tilted to the side looking cute and trying to figure out the meaning. Good girl. Stay.
            In your words these Asian countries are the USA’s bitches, well I gotta tell you we treat our women well. Take a look at the donations we send to these countries in time if need.

          • linette lee

            you are a dog. You are a bxtch.

          • Lord_Helmet

            I rest my case.

          • TheSOP

            Looks like we lost another one to 粪青病

          • Germandude

            Losing usually suggests that sth of value went missing. I fail to see value.

          • TheSOP

            She seemed semi-rational most of the time with the exception of racist outbursts towards Japanese, but now she seems indistinguishable from the run of the mill 大陆愤青, sad… I lose hope for China more and more everyday. I used to be an optimist…. long long ago, when I was ignorant.

          • Kai

            I suspect linette was semi-rational to you whenever she conveniently identified herself as a Hong Konger to bash the mainland Chinese. Now that she’s conveniently associating herself with the Chinese overall, you’re upset…but that’s just bias on your part, not an actual reflection of her rationality, which has been questionable since the dawn of time.

          • Germandude

            cS bringing a news story about the Islands within the next 24 hours and I bet you that there are 1000+ comments within 48 hours, at least 10 posts that you and wiener have to delete because of racism and a significant amount of trolling that needs your moderation.

            While you and wiener will be busy, I need to be quick in the supermarket later. Cold beer and chips need to be prepared for a fun ride. ;-)

          • Kai

            I don’t see a story in the works about the defenze zone though it’d be an interesting case study in wumao activity, but I’m not sure Fauna wants to do that.

          • Germandude

            Cool, thanks. Saves me money on beer and chips, plus a couple of nerves I guess.

          • TheSOP

            What makes you think it is so dominated by wumao as opposed to reflecting a lot of genuine feelings among some (segments) of the Chinese population? I’d be interested to know if wumao would go so far as to say things like 杀光日本人?Or is wumao just a pejorative for both fenqings and real wumao?

          • Kai

            See my other comment.

            Wumao comments DO reflect genuine feelings among some segemtns of the Chinese population. The issue isn’t whether they do, but that they are dishonestly magnified and over-represented.

            Wumao should strictly refer to people employed to post comments according to the instructions of the government. Fenqing refers to nationalistic youth, but be careful in noting that fenqing are not necessarily pro-government, and sometimes are alternatively seen as dissatisfied youth who are actually overly critical of the government.

          • My_honourable_lord

            If it does get posted, I say over 2,000 comments. Anyone else care to hazard a guess?

            It will be mayhem though. That is for sure. Pure carnage on the comment section:-)

          • mr.wiener

            Oh joy.. :(

          • My_honourable_lord

            You’ll have your work cut out for you if that story gets published on CS:-) Got the mop bucket, detergents and bleach for your eyes ready?

          • mr.wiener

            Naah, I’ll pinch some of my mother in laws roofies. Wake me when it is over,

          • My_honourable_lord

            You aren’t going to join in the party of parties? With an avatar like that? Or do I get to be a voluntary unofficial mod and keep the mobs from shredding each other? :-)

          • My_honourable_lord

            So China has just sent it’s aircraft carrier with accompanying frigates to the theatre of south china sea…looks as though things are about to get hot.

          • TheSOP

            oh if you are saying I am biased against PRChina I am happy to admit I am; I am biased against hegemonic imperialists who grab the lands and seas of others and cry thief when pointed out. I can’t take the words of people who actively and prolifically practice large scale historical revisionism seriously. I am very much biased against a state that has killed 10s of millions of its own citizens yet lectures other about facing up to history while it proactively erases its own and punishes those that try to expose it. Bias is earned in this case Kai, and it is a perfectly reasonable response. I won’t let it blind me but I assure you that one party has far more hurdles to overcome to achieve credibility, and those hurdles are entirely of their own making.

          • Kai

            Thanks. I would prefer you to be “rationally” against the PRC but if you want to be categorically biased and are proud of it, there’s not much I can do except weep at how you give rise to people like whuddyasack. Thanks for happily poisoning discussions about China.

            You do understand that one can be “against hegemonic imperialists who grab the lands and seas of others and cry thief when pointed out” without being biased, right?

            I don’t take certain people seriously either, which is one reason I and others didn’t respond to linette, but apparently you choose to see that as implicit agreement with her.

            It’s funny how you want to pin your own bias on China here, as if you have no control over your own mental faculties. It is CHINA CHINA CHINA that has made you irrational. It’s not you, it never is, it’s always THEM.

            I don’t think your brand of China bashing is a reasonable response. Understandable, maybe, because you’re hardly the only person who reacts like this, but “reasonable”? No, not strictly according to the definiton of “reason”.

            I agree that China has huge hurdles in terms of international credibility and have regularly said as much. But how does that have anything to do with the point of my original comment in response to AGDM? Between linette and AGDM, he was the one who actually seems to be saying things that reflect he’s reading and processing responses from other people, so I thought he was far more interesting to have a conversation with than linette.

          • TheSOP

            I am not a “China basher” and frankly I’d appreciate it if you would not associate me with someone that we both know is a hardcore racist and Asian-supremacist as I hold no such reciprocal views. I think you know that making such analogues, as you have before, is little more than name calling.

            I think you are interpreting bias purely in a negative way in relation to the person exercising it as opposed to the person/state engendering it. I don’t want to wander off into semantical wonderland, but I will say that it is reasonable to hold doubts against someone who is known to cry fire where there is none, we naturally develop bias against such an individual because of the record and reputation engendered by their behavior. It is natural to cast suspicion upon the words of such an individual and it is perfectly rational to view them with such suspicion. Bias does not preclude rational analysis, if I see smoke and he says fire then I am more inclined to believe them where as a person or state with a better reputation will earn more immediate acceptance of their claims/position to be coupled with verification. If you want to pretend you are some kind of structural rationalist with no feedback loop from your past experiences you are free to make that claim although personally I will invest little stock in it.

          • Kai

            For the record, I said “your brand of China bashing” which is still a bit different from labeling you a “China basher”. I was characterizing some of your behavior and not merely labeling you.

            To explain, I think your spell of spamming “Mao is an STD-infested pedophile” on irrelevant posts qualified as China bashing, especially since you more or less used it as a dismissal of anyone you saw as disagreeing with you about your views on China. I also think your propensity to use negative adjectives and characterizations whenever mentioning China is indicative. You also seem to elevate pretty much any negative situation in China into a critical commentary of China’s government, country, or society overall. This strikes me as “bashing”.

            That said, I don’t care to label you because people often use labels as substitutes for arguments, like dismissing someone as a “liberal” instead of actually articulating their disagreement. I’m not going to dismiss you as a “China basher” so don’t worry about that; I’ll articulate my disagreements.

            I associate you with whuddyasack when your behavior resembles his. I do so out of hope that you might modify your behavior for what I consider the better. I recognize that you don’t mind-numbingly put your foot in your mouth quite like he does but there are still valid similarities like a proclivity to deflect and eagerness to establish people as ideological enemies.

            Name-calling wouldn’t involve demonstrations of why you two have exhibited similar behaviors and use similar rhetorical tactics in argument.

            No, bias doesn’t preclude rational analysis. I never said it does. A rational analysis however must be devoid of bias. If you proudly display and embrace your bias, how credible do you expect to be with regards to any “rational analysis” coming from you?

          • TheSOP

            Bashing Mao or the CCP is no more akin to bashing China than bashing Hitler is to German bashing. If you want to question its effectiveness then by all means but lets not conflate the two. This is a site about China, the topic will always gravitate naturally to that subject. If this was called America Smack and I frantically injected China into each post the way Whattasack does with the “West” and “Whites” here you would have a more valid position. Deflecting as you asserted on a previous article making a fairly flimsy assertion, especially on the issue of the differences and similarities of the Dutch reality show and Luo Jing’s experience. As a case study on a site devoted to China it is completely relevant but your objection was to the poster who was raising it less than to the relevance of the two incidents. There is not much I can do to change that situation, and honestly not much I am willing to do. You can call it deflection if you’d like it was still a relevant comparison.

            I also don’t inject blatantly racist elements into the discussion the way he does, even if I have stirred the pot on occasion. Because I don’t hold ethnic animosity against Asians in general or Chinese in particular, this is a very big difference between Whattashack and I, and to paint over it as some minor difference is completely disingenuous. I do despise the current Chinese state embodied by the CCP because it is a very real threat to the peace and security of the region and by extension to my own home country not to mention its track record within its own borders. I can’t and won’t apologize for slamming it.

          • Kai

            Bashing Mao is bashing China when you use it to bash China, and especially when you spam it across irrelevant conversations. Remember, that was just a notable example of your China bashing. I also point to you reliably elevating and broadening negative things onto China overall.

            Nothing I said suggests a site about China will not have conversations about China. I’m not saying you engage in China bashing just because you’re on a site about China talking about China; I point to very specific patterns of behavior WHEN you talk about China. The “SMACK” argument is not a rebuttal to what I said.

            I remain confident in my observations about you deflecting. You say my objection was to the poster rather than the relevance of the incidents. Yes, that’s true, because my objection was about the poster’s deflection, not about the relevance of the incidents. Whuddyasack’s deflection also invoke incidents with arguable relevance but it doesn’t change the fact that he is being objectionable for employing deflection. If people want to argue about it, they’re free to review it themselves. Relevance of comparison does not change whether or not you were deflecting. A proper deflection necessarily invokes a relevant comparison, but it’s still a deflection.

            Didn’t I say you don’t put your foot in your mouth quite like he does, in reference to his racist elements? The closest I can recall of you doing anything close to that is suggesting people who disagree with you must be Asian and thus have some sort of inherent ethnic bias. I’m not sure why me clearly stating:

            I associate you with whuddyasack when your behavior resembles his. I do so out of hope that you might modify your behavior for what I consider the better. I recognize that you don’t mind-numbingly put your foot in your mouth quite like he does but there are still valid similarities like a proclivity to deflect and eagerness to establish people as ideological enemies.

            …became me “painting over” anything as “some minor difference”. I think I was clear in my statements. WHEN you behave like whuddyasack, I make associations between you two. That does not amount to me belittling differences between you two, especially when I clearly volunteered one. If you don’t want to be likened to whuddyasack, don’t reliably deflect or seek out ideological enemies like he does. You know how he rants and labels white American men being China bashers? Do you know how similar that is to you ranting and labeling people as Sanlu-drinking Chinese fenqings?

            I think you often slam China unfairly and this ultimately lessens the credibility and influence of your slams, especially when you slam China in petty ways like the whole “Mao is an STD-infested pedophile” spamming episode or angrily dismissing people as “Sanlu-drinking Chinese fenqings”. You have your reasons for despising China, but I’m not objecting to you despising China, I’m objecting how you often go about expressing it. Likewise, whuddysack has his reasons for despising white China bashers, and I object to how he goes about expressing himself. So please don’t mistake my objection with behavior here as me objecting with your positions.

          • TheSOP

            If you conflate bashing Mao with China bashing that is your position, I won’t have it foisted on me. I’ll leave it at that.

            Well it seems you are subject to biases after all, of course it was the poster not the comparison to Luo Jing that earned your ire… perhaps I am the guy who cried fire to you, but it nonetheless shows we both engage is ‘rational’ biasing. Welcome to being human.

            I still find it troubling that you are still reaching to put me in the Whattasack box, even obliquely, using an incident that you perceived as having racial signatures to toss me in with an unabashed whole sale racist. I’d encourage you to see clearly the differences between someone who may stir the pot and a blatant unrepentant racist. Sanlu drinking fenqing is not racist, insulting and intended to be such yes, racist no. Again it is my perception that he gets away with uttering completely racist things that others such as BigJ were warned about when using “Chinaman”, white trash among other terms used repeatedly to attack others is a direct appeal to racism, yet has not encountered the same opposition.

          • Kai

            What? How does objecting to a poster using deflection become being “subject to biases”?

            I don’t think I’m reaching at all. You seem to be broadening my statements in order to indignantly object to them.

            I’m saying you two both deflect. Your response is to say you stir the pot and he’s a blatant unrepentant racist? How does that refute my assertion that you two both deflect?

            Geez, I never said you saying “Sanlu drinking fenqing” is racist. I said it is an example of “ranting and labeling”, which whuddyasack also does. The behavior is the same; I didn’t say the “labels” are the same. You two have both exhibited an eagerness to label and dismiss people.

            There is seriously no argument about people getting away with uttering completely racist things. There is FAR MORE “anti-Chinese” racism that we let people express on this site than anti-white racism. It isn’t even close.

            The appeal to BiggJ to stop using “Chinaman” was not a warning by a moderator, because we don’t moderate on the basis of racism. The appeal to him was from one commenter to another. He was/is otherwise a cool guy and simply didn’t think some casual racism was a big deal. The appeal was to communicate to him that he should stop out of common consideration for and courtesy to the ethnic Chinese people on this site that he interacts with without any actual malice. I think he understood that and modified his behavior accordingly. That’s GOOD of him.

            I’ve criticized whuddysack WAY more than BiggJ on racial epithets. Please do not even try to suggest bias in this. If that is your perception, either you aren’t paying close enough attention to judge fairly or you have selective memory. Either way, it’s ridiculous. This is the kind of shit accusations where whuddysack chimes in and says how I get spit in the face for my efforts to be fair and even-handed.

          • TheSOP

            It was you specifically who told BiggJ to stop using Chinaman. Not another poster. Try applying the same to Whattasack the next time he says white trash.

          • Kai

            Holy toledo, man, I didn’t say another poster told BiggJ to stop using “Chinaman”.

            “From one commenter to another” is a juxtaposition with “warning by a moderator”. I’m saying I “appealed” to him as a fellow commenter; I wasn’t “warning” him as a moderator. Why? Because we don’t moderate on racism, so why would I be “warning” him as a moderator?

            “White trash” isn’t quite on the same level as “Chinaman” to me, like “laowai” isn’t on the same level as “chink”. It’s more like “Chinese peasant”. Given that I’ve already publicly criticized whuddyasack for variations of “negroid” or “negro” and then explicitly suggesting white people have genes predisposing them to behaving like “savage animals”, I’m pretty sure I’ve applied the same and much more to whuddyasack than BiggJ. It’s a shame on him that he isn’t as quick to modify his behavior as BiggJ was.

          • 二奶头发

            many years ago the word “Chinaman” wasn’t considered racist. but now of course it is. The word “laowai” at this point in time may not be the same level as “Chink” but who is to say what may happen years from now as more and more non-chinese people are understanding the chinese language. In fact I think that word will be considered racist in the future. I for one don’t use the word to describe a waiguoren. I also don’t like the word “yangguizi” but I see it often on weibo. also yang rui’s “yanglaiji” is another racist word that pops up time to time on weibo.

            as for the word white trash to some people it would be on the same level as “Chinaman”. and I’ve seen posts on weibo with “中国佬” which is translated as “Chinaman”.

          • My_honourable_lord

            But what about ‘Frenchman’ or ‘Englishman’. These are used but its not racist in any sense or form to do so. Why is Chinaman perceived as racist?

          • 二奶头发

            Good question…
            I think that question is best answered by a person who is english or who is french. :-)

            I’ve had an argument like this last year on weibo over the word “yangguizi” when I said to a chinese person that the word is racist. the chinese person said it is not. However I pointed out you may not think so but the people who the term is directed at would think so.

            I believe a term is considered racist because the “race” it is directed at thinks it is (majority of people of that race eventually do). However, the people who say the word (at first) may not think so but as more people of the race it is directed at think it’s racist speak up then it changes everybody’s perceptions.

            So a term like laowai may be considered racist years later because of the way it’s used in the chinese language now. for example the other day I was on the bus when I heard a chinese woman call out to her friend … “Hey look there is a laowai on the bus” (when a waiguoren was getting on at a stop near my home) or last year while shopping I heard a merchant call out to a waiguoren trying to get him to buy something “HEY LAOWAI LAOWAI ni xiang mai shenme? ” in that case he looked offended. Now change the word to Chinaman and have a white person say those things and ….. it’s racist.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ok very well explained and understood. I have never used that term in any case and definitely will not be using it after reading your explanation.

          • Kai

            True, “laowai” could very well move into fully-recognized pejorative territory in the future. Words are malleable. You shouldn’t like “yangguizi” because it is definitely pejorative.

            “Yanglaji” (white/western/foreign trash) is also pejorative, but in the same way as “Chinese trash”. It’s the “laji” (trash) that makes it offensive, and it is intended to be offensive. “Laowai” so far is not intimately associated with intending offense, but if enough foreigners interpret it as offensive, Chinese people may come to recognize it as offensive as well and thus avoid using it in the future.

          • whuddyasack

            “This is the kind of shit accusations where whuddysack chimes in and says how I get spit in the face for my efforts to be fair and even-handed.”

            Do you know why I chime in? It’s actually in “defense” of you. Not that you need it of course, but it’s because I want to do it. You see, most of the time, you actually are getting hated on and treated unfairly despite the many concessions you routinely give out to the regular trolls. But it’s frustrating to me how much seeing shit you and the other mods are willing to take without doing anything back. If I were in your place, I don’t think they’d dare to raise a squeak.

            If you really were that heavy-handed and firm, POS wouldn’t even be trolling on this board. He wouldn’t have the opportunity to mock your efforts and repeatedly challenge you being the looney that he is.

            Let’s just give one example why that POS has no right to call you or any of the Chinese staff here biased. Inspite of not having plans to translate the article below, POS (and several others) demanded for it and he was appeased.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/stories/us-b-52-bombers-fly-over-air-defense-zone-chinese-reactions.html

            Like a poster from another blog, he clearly shows a lack of gratitude. There’s little use reasoning with him since you’ve given him more than enough leverage IMO. He is simply too stubborn, too insecure and too bitter and we all know what he’s about.

            I read his extremely rude conversations with other Chinese posters like Linette and Stefan while I wasn’t here with disgust. It’s good that you stood between some of them. Just goes to show what kind of pathetic person he is, a person can be a friend one minute, a foe the next.

            Actually I’m showing a lot of restraint not to insult him and hurt his petty feewings again lest I be accused as wacist. My post to you simply serves as a warning and advice because he obviously doesn’t give his hairy ass about your feelings.

          • Kai

            I know you chime in often in defense of me. I appreciate the intent behind you doing so, but often your defense doesn’t help. Often, this is because you counterattack instead of rebut, and your counterattacks are as flimsy or unfair as the attacks I’m facing.

          • linette lee

            You need to get lost.

          • Germandude

            Shut up simpleton. Instead of having your breasts operated, a brain transplant would’ve been of more value.

          • mr.wiener

            A bran muffin with your coffee in the mornings makes life much more bearable. The irritations and drivelings of others just seems to slide right off you.
            When you give advice like this you just know that person is over 50.

          • Germandude

            Well, she is spitting bullshit, causes reactions that she can’t handle AND THEN deletes many comments on which others replied. Besides showing that she doesn’t have a backbone, it makes some comments here look a bit ludicrous.
            linette lee is a typical example of a person raising her flag and letting it blow with the wind.

            Regarding your advice: I have my coffee, but am not a big fan of muffins. I wish I was as wise as the 50-year-old Aussie, unfortunately, I am far younger than you and still think it’s necessary to give flag to idiots.

          • linette lee

            I don’t have backbone? Are you dumb? I deleted those comments because I don’t want to hurt the feelings of more people on a family holiday. You moron. People who have been hanging around CS already knew I say what’s on my mind. And yes, it can be hurtful words telling them my true feeling towards these articles. I am sparing people from reading hurtful words. You stupid idiot. Get lost.

          • Germandude

            “People who have been hanging around CS already knew I AM TALKING RUBBISH.”

            Here, kind as I am, I fixed that for you.

          • linette lee

            You Mr. big backbone here, why don’t your show your face? TAlking shxt.

          • Guest23

            Well, just read the whole thread after a day later, and it pretty much escalated to this level.

            We can pretty much all agree that the Air Defense Zone and Lioning naval exercise is gonna raise regional tensions, bad enough that documentary “Silent Contest” just made it to the net.

          • Germandude

            You see, I tried to google for “Silent Contest” and google.com simply said that it didn’t receive any info.
            Thanks for making me curious about it and giving me the task to find it.

          • Guest23

            Here it is, sorry, just waking up and preparing for a long afternoon.

            Made quite a headline.

          • Germandude

            Thanks a lot!

          • Guest23

            Was on a lot of news sites, blogs, and etc. pretty insane to think this military propaganda film was leaked to the net by some temporary worker, so they say.

          • Guest23

            Just a bit weird out that this didn’t made headlines as it should with the magnitude of the film’s implications, pretty much Red Dawn with the message it’s showing, been almost out for a month now.

          • TheSOP

            NYT had an article on it. China cries about the “China Threat” (which as is increasingly being shown is an extremely legitimate theory) but their whole propaganda apparatus is in full anti-America, anti-West, and anti-Japan mode 24/7 for the past 60 years. China is a threat, and America’s pivot is the right policy.

          • Guest23

            Just talked to some other guys about this, they kinda laugh about it and some think it’s hypocritical that they scream a lot of racism and outrage on that Jimmy Kimmel skit then this film with apparent backing of the Government and Military.

            There wasn’t really that much news hits about this, they just moved on, pretty worried if this mindset of *possible scenarios* is just paranoia or just plain distractions to other problems.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Just in, I posted this to Kai also.

            US BOMBERS CHALLENGE CHINA DEFENCE ZONE:

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011

          • My_honourable_lord
          • TheSOP

            First I dont think you have the slightest understanding of Japan or its people. Second a relationship with America is one of partnership, one countries (even weak ones) are free to leave as the Philippines showed kicking the US out of Subic. You are just spouting Dalu propaganda without any real understanding, exhibiting the worst stereotypes of the Chinese.

        • My_honourable_lord

          Don’t you live in America? Whose bitch are you?

        • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

          The Empire of the Sun saw how hot the sun could get during WWII…

          • linette lee

            Abomb was too sad. Many cilivians died.

        • TheSOP

          Nobody is America’s bitch, and nobody wants to be the PRC’s bitch because any Asian with half a memory and understanding of history will know who the real thug of the region is.

      • ThinkBlue

        Linette Lee “deleted” all her posts. What was she saying?

        • Zappa Frank

          complaining about US and how they flame the situation in Asia (although she means just east asia), how Japanese and Koreans are americans dogs that look for protection and how east asia (but I suspect she meant china,korea and japan) should unite…

        • My_honourable_lord

          ‘Linette Lee “deleted” all her posts. What was she saying?’

          She was talking but not actually saying anything.

  • YourSupremeCommander

    Very surprised to see that major new outlets (CNN & BBC) don’t have ANYTHING on this incident.

  • TheSOP

    I’d like to see cS comments on that one, over on Sina there are widespread popular calls for war with Japan and the US. Lots of big talk about nuking the US and Japan… Mainland Chinese society is really ugly right now. All the most popular comments (most upvotes) support a war of aggression.

    • My_honourable_lord

      Could you post some links please? I can’t find any. It would be useful for everyone here to see those comments.

      • TheSOP

        Here is one on Japan’s low opinion on China (more than 80% expressing dislike, all time high I believe, which is a mirror opposite to the popular USA), and the Chinese response which includes a Shanghai netizen calling for all Japanese in Shanghai to be slaughtered, among other niceties.

        http://news.sina.com.cn/w/2013-11-24/003628793225.shtml

        The current top article on Sina is this and the rhetoric isnt as bas as yesterday: http://comment5.news.sina.com.cn/comment/skin/default.html?channel=jc&newsid=27-1-751215

        And here they are responding to the US response by Chuck Hagel with the usual down with US imperialism dribble (forgetting that they are in fact the largest imperialist in Asia): http://comment5.news.sina.com.cn/comment/skin/default.html?channel=jc&newsid=27-1-751066

        • Kai

          Pro-tip: Have a bit of skepticism when you see comments made through mobile phones without profile photos and posted within similar time frames. There’s a reason why wumaos are an open secret on the Chinese internet, spamming comments and padding votes.

          http://comment5.news.sina.com.cn/comment/skin/default.html?channel=gj&newsid=1-1-28793225

          8 of the top 10 comments fit this profile.

          http://comment5.news.sina.com.cn/comment/skin/default.html?channel=jc&newsid=27-1-751066

          6 of the top 10 comments fit this profile.

          http://comment5.news.sina.com.cn/comment/skin/default.html?channel=jc&newsid=27-1-751215

          9 of the top 10 comments fit this profile.

          • TheSOP

            Yes, I asked about that below. Still if wumao’s are posting that level of vitriol what does that say about the Chinese state as a player in international politics. If that is even partial reflection of what they really think in the halls of power then I think the US would be wise to shift 80% of the fleet to the Pacific.

          • Kai

            It says the Chinese state uses astroturfing and sockpuppetry to influence public sentiments.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astroturfing_cases

            Other countries do the same thing but with a different level of scale and sophistication. Without doubt, China’s efforts are astoundingly ham-fisted but even as an open secret, it proves effective enough for the Chinese government to continue with it. Sadly, and much to my consternation.

            I’d say the halls of power, or the people making the final decisions, are not remotely on the level of vitriol seen in many wumao comments. That doesn’t mean the halls of power don’t find a use for spreading that sort of vitriol in the general population. We’re not unfamiliar with populism, rabble-rousing, and fanning the flames of nationalism.

          • TheSOP

            Same apply for Netease? I don’t follow them usually but it seems to be your default comments here (that and Youku).

          • Kai

            Given that the underlying “technology” for spamming comments and padding votes is the same, arguably it is but NetEase tends to be better about moderating against this sort of behavior than Sina in my experience. The community is also a bit more militant about wumaos and water-armies, almost to a certain reactionary paranoia that leads them to reliably accuse anyone of voicing certain opinions of being wumaos or water army.

          • My_honourable_lord

            HOLY SHIT! This looks like its getting out of hand:

            US BOMBER CHALLENGE CHIN DEFENSE ZONE:

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            The US did that too with North Korea when Kim was threatening to bomb Texas. This isn’t getting out of hand, it’s just the military’s way of warning others.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Man I hope you are right. Right now all sarcasm is out of the fucking window. This must not escalate. I hear you. I understand this is how things pan out but, one, just one wrong move and all this posturing by all involved will have disastrous results. On the other side, they could all do business together, make money together and everyone, i mean everyone would be all the better for it.

            Seriously. This is getting scary. Who in their right mind wants a 3rd world war? I can’t be bothered at this moment in the semantics of who is in the right or wrong. That will count for little when nukes start flying. Peace to the world man. Peace to the world…..

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            Doubtful. China doesn’t want a war either given how costly it’d be, and any damage against the US is damage to its own economy, seeing as how the US is holding on to several trillions of their money…

          • My_honourable_lord

            So what was the purpose of establishing this new defence zone when the next day bombers fly through it, and airlines have already stopped filing flight plans? I had hoped it was only posturing and that is exactly what it has turned out to be.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            The purpose of the defense zone was an attempt to get Japan to back off. The U.S flamboyant disregard for new airspace is them telling China they can’t just change the rules like that.

            And the Chinese government has to keep all factors in mind. Including that if they go to war with Japan, that will mean going to war with the U.S and that will hamper their current economic plan of selling a metric fuckton of stuff to the U.S

          • don mario

            this is pretty much done with now. usa put them in check, i guess they will know their role from now on or just stick to more propaganda /bs/

          • My_honourable_lord

            Yup. Just got this headline:

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25133957

          • Akatosh

            lol texas
            i wouldnt mind
            give them back to the mexicans they already polluted the land

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            For naming yourself after the benevolent dragon god, you’re kind of a dick.

          • My_honourable_lord
          • whuddyasack

            Exactly. I just visited some “Western” sites that weren’t even American, and you still see the typical mouth-foaming trolls spitting, hacking and smearing their vitriol all over the place. It’s like a bunch of rabid rats, and there’s plenty of them even in that thread in CSmack that POS literally demanded for.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/stories/us-b-52-bombers-fly-over-air-defense-zone-chinese-reactions.html

            To be honest, those trolls are far more pervasive than the “wumao” that POS likes to represent as ALL Chinese. Even you said it before, that translating the article above and it’s plans wasn’t even in the minds of most moderators but due to popular demand you had to do it.

            There is a significant population in both China and Japan that simply doesn’t care bout these things that much anymore and these types of articles are far more popular with White North Americans than any other group including the Chinese/Japanese. Actually, they are simply more popular in the West, where not a single day goes by without each online news outlet publishing 10 different articles relating to this “air conflict”.

            In fact, many of these trolls claim to be real “Americans” while posting there which is ridiculous. Because if they were real, they would be doing something worthwhile for their country or at the very least, try their best not to let their idiocy speak for all Americans. (Notice I’m giving White people far more leverage than POS is giving the Chinese? I’m actually saying these buffoons are not the majority… when they clearly outnumber the Chinese trolls WOW)

            The point is stupid comments from hotheads has always been a part of internet speech. Best to just ridicule and mock them and leave it at that.

          • Kai

            The moderators don’t “plan” what gets translated; our translators decide on their own. I said I didn’t see anyone working on the story at the time and that was true. Jamie just happened to do it later on, and I don’t think she was influenced into doing it because of “popular demand” by cS commenters. It was a legitimately popular story on the Chinese internet.

            I would say most people in both China and Japan don’t care that much about politics, meaning they don’t devote that much attention or thought to it beyond perhaps some casual conversation and paying some lip-service to vague preferences/biases they might have. Their days are preoccupied with much more mundane concerns. This is true pretty much everywhere, including “White North Americans”.

            These things will be popular with those who care about them, and while those who genuinely care and invest actual time and thought into them aren’t a majority anywhere, they’re still enough to make things notable and worthwhile to pay some attention to.

            Stupid comments have indeed always been part of internet speech. People should indeed take them with a grain of salt and be careful not to equate or broaden them too much.

            That said, I don’t think there was a single paragraph in your comment that didn’t include you saying something patently stupid and/or obnoxious. Your resentment and subsequent generalizations of “China bashing” has made you unreasonable and unsympathetic, which unfortunately does no favors for China or Chinese people.

          • whuddyasack

            “Stupid comments have indeed always been part of internet speech. People should indeed take them with a grain of salt and be careful not to equate or broaden them too much.”

            Debatable.

            Lol, Kai. Anyways, I was on hiatus on Csmack for so long. What did I miss?

            Happy new year, both Chinese and non-Chinese BTW.

        • My_honourable_lord

          That is just nasty man. Maybe a nice little tsunami affecting both countries simultaneously might knock some sense into them that they have to learn to get along.

          • TheSOP

            A change of government and an open democratic system with real civil societies and independent media would be preferable.

          • My_honourable_lord

            It would be in terms of governance but the general levels of hate which if left unrestrained could easily turn into something very bloody. That mindset is not easily changed. Its depressing to see these attitudes in these ‘modern’ times.

          • My_honourable_lord
  • http://500px.com/justinrjones whiskersthecat

    Holy shit

  • My_honourable_lord

    It was a lot of peoples hometown.

  • http://yoursexycousinrex.tumblr.com/ Your Sexy Cousin Rex

    No sarcastic comments from me this time, this shit fucking blows

    • My_honourable_lord

      up.

    • Kai

      Pun intended?

  • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

    Retribution for the government’s military action is a poorly constructed pipeline killing civilians…

    That’s just going into retard mode right there.

  • Cauffiel

    Man, Qingdao got fucked up. :-(

  • Zebadee

    How are ANY of these comments related to the article ?????? STAY ON TOPIC !!!!

  • Cauffiel

    When I saw that story about the islands again, I knew something was about to happen (or in this case, I would find out already happened.)

  • N0WBIE

    It’s not a power of an atomic bomb.

  • lonetrey / Dan

    Holy shit.

    This is on a new scale of destruction that I never thought possible, and the fact that it was done by mistake just blows my mind. I feel like I’m looking at the results of a giant cannonball plowing through the roads or something.

    When I saw the first photo, I was like, “Where’s the damage? This is just a picture of a dried out riverside ditch.” And then I realized what I was really looking at.

  • linette lee

    You are brainwashed by the USA media to think diaoyu belongs to Japan when it was Japan who took it from Chinese with military force. Go read some history of the island of diaoyu. Even the blind can see this island is located right next to Taiwan and China. Far away from mainland Japan. The ownership treaty was signed between USA and Japan without China’s agreement during WWII. When China was in the middle of crisis just got out of Japan invasion. Japan should be glad China hasn’t use military force after WWII to take diaoyu island back. Japan should not be attacking Chinese fishermen fishing in their own backyard water and wave that stupid treaty ownership (agreement between usa and Japan) in front of China. Not cool.

    • Zappa Frank

      but the distance from mainland is of no importance in these kinds of claims, besides are really close to ryukyu islands that are Japanese, closer than Taiwan. China wasn’t able to take back those islands, may be now, but not after the WW2. I don’t know the history of those islands but consider that during the WW2 many countries lost territories.. even Japan lost half of shakalin and kurilis islands by Russians.. Considering that China in the WW2 has been not a winner, but a saved country, I think there’s not too much to complain.

      • linette lee

        But there is big problem when Chinese fishermen fishing in the water close by taiwan and diaoyu get attacked by Japan.

        • David

          In all fairness, you can say the same about fishermen from the Philippines who the Chinese navy DO harass. I don’t want to get in the middle of all this nationalism but do want to say one thing. It is not a coincidence that China has border disputes with EVERY SINGLE one of its neighbors (including countries who are only neighbors by water, like Indonesia and the Philippines). India, Mongolia, Vietnam, Laos, Burma etc. . it is also noticeable that most of these claims are from within the last 30 years when China has become the big boy on the block, economically. These is not to support one side or the other, just saying it looks awfully menacing to other countries around the world.

    • David

      Linette, I promise you, almost nobody in the U.S. (unless you have a bone in the fight) even knows that China and Japan (or China and everybody else) is are HAVING a fight over some islands. The independent media is certainly not supporting anybody in that fight.

  • linette lee

    The dispute between China and Phillipine is a separate issue. I don’t support China claim on that one.

  • linette lee

    I don’t support the claim of China over the territory with Philippine. It’s almost pity and regretful that China didn’t use military force to take diaoyu back from Japan right after WWII. Japan was invading China.

    “In contrast Japan’s argument largely ignored the historical position put forward in Chinese accounts. Claiming that the uninhabited islands were not occupied by any power, or terra nullius, Japan annexed the islands in 1895 shortly after its victory in the Sino-Japanese War. Japan claimed that the islands were ‘discovered’ in 1884 by Fukuoka merchant Koga Tatsushiro, who then applied to lease the land from the Japanese state. At the time, however, the interior ministry noted that it was still unclear as to whether the islands belonged to Japan, especially as there was detailed knowledge of the islands in Chinese and Ryukyuan writings, making Koga’s claims of ‘discovery’ difficult to substantiate. Nonetheless a Cabinet decision in 1895 ruled that the islands should become part of Japan, which provided the basis for their inclusion in Japan’s territories under the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1952 that concluded the Second World War in Asia, but at which neither China nor Taiwan were present.

    From the Chinese perspective there is little substance to Japan’s claims that the islands were not ‘occupied’, given that a fine distinction exists between ‘uninhabited’ and ‘unoccupied’. Sources suggest that there are graves of Taiwanese fishermen on the island. Although US occupation authorities in Okinawa administered the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands from 1945 until 1972 and used them as a training base, the US government did not see the transfer to Japan of the right of administration over the islands as equivalent to the transfer of sovereignty, which it insisted was a matter to be resolved by the relevant parties….”

    http://www.historytoday.com/joyman-lee/senkakudiaoyu-islands-conflict

  • David

    Except that people don’t really wonder why, they simply accept it as the cost of growing the economy.

  • David

    The picture is absolutely PSs. All three ships have wakes off their bows, if this were real they just all rammed each other going 20 knots.

  • David

    I think proper divine retribution would have been a pipe line under the government building of the ruling Politburo exploding. Unless you think God has bad aim?

  • TheSOP

    I disagree, you will find hotheads anywhere but it is the degree to which they dominate the most popular comments on Sina, coupled with the lack of any real dissenting opinions which set it apart from the free internet.

  • ThinkBlue

    Seems a lot of Chinese commenters want to blame someone, but I don’t think that’s going to solve the kind of problems we see here. There needs to be big step towards teaching the value of maintenance. Nothing stays good for long — everything needs maintaining to keep safe and in working order. I always felt that when I was in China certain things I took for granted in the US were only fixed when they broke, which ultimately cost a lot more than regular maintenance.

  • Stefan Xu

    This is an accident and accidents happen. This can happen all over the world.
    RIP those who deceased.

    • Zappa Frank

      altought is true that accidents happen everywhere it’s not a good reason to justify it or pretend is unavoidable.. you said you were lived in sweden, do you think someting like this can happen in sweden? it’s not an accident that can happen everywhere, it’s an accident that happen where legilation don’t care enough about people, or law is not respected by someone.. This is an accident that mark the distance between countries.

    • David S.

      This tragic non-evacuation of residents left to wander around a large amount of spilled highly flammable material is an unfortunate accident indeed. Let us all hope such unavoidable unforeseable loss of life does not happen again.

  • Stefan Xu

    Why do you think so lowly about China?

    • Rick in China

      You don’t know what I think “about China”. That’s far too large of a topic to sum up in a reply to a stupid broad straw man.

    • Germandude

      Here we go again…

      • Stefan Xu

        China is really hated and looked down upon in the west. I don’t think it’s fair. I just want everybody to respect and see china as a normal country like all the other ones.

        • Germandude

          What’s the reference to Rick in China’s post? Where does he give you the impression that he thinks low about China?

          You should know: Most people in the west look down on the Chinese government, not the people.

          • Stefan Xu

            also the people, I remember two years ago when that girl got hit by the van and people walked by, there was an outrage in the west and people just said that Chinese have no morals, ethics, Chinese are sub-humans…etc.

          • Germandude

            How old are you if I may ask?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ok now there’s a question that’s been on my mind. I think we ought to exercise restraint at times because we may well be speaking to a teenager. No sarcasm here. I believe it may be the case.

          • Stefan Xu

            Why would you ask that question?

          • Germandude

            Just out of interest. My_honourable_lord figured why.

          • Stefan Xu

            21

          • Germandude

            Ok, thanks.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Not far off that mark eh? Treat him gently:-)

          • Germandude

            Well it explains a lot to me now. Difficult times…

        • Zappa Frank

          if china would be normal country like all the other ones no doubt it would be

        • TheSOP

          China is not a normal country, it is ruled by an oppressive totalitarian government which not only keeps its own people under coercive rule but is also usurping the lands and seas of other Asian states and supporting dictatorial regimes throughout the world which otherwise may have become free liberal democracies already if not for PRC meddling (DPRK for one!). The PRC as a state is despised for many legitimate reasons.

      • My_honourable_lord

        Yyyyyyup..

    • David S.

      It’s not about China. Many governments around the world have been known to stir up the nationalist fervour of its citizens in order to divert attention from more local issues for which they (the government) bear some responsability.
      Argentina, Vietnam, Japan, Russia, USA, pretty much any country you care to name…

  • Stefan Xu

    No, the majority of the population (65%) wasn’t subject to the one child policy when it was enforced.

  • My_honourable_lord

    I’ve just looked at the pictures now. I couldn’t bring myself to do it earlier. What in God’s name happened there…..? Forget war with japan, things are blowing up UNDER people…

  • My_honourable_lord

    Latest news. They might be better off sending this probe to Qingdao. What is wrong with them? They have a city in ruins but are more concerned with the moon.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25102718

  • My_honourable_lord

    Xinhua:

    China’s first aircraft carrier left Nov. 26 on a training mission to the South China Sea, escorted by missile destroyers and frigates, state media said.

    The newly-commissioned Liaoning left its home port of Qingdao accompanied by two missile destroyers, the Shenyang and Shijiazhuang, and two missile frigates, the Yantai and Weifang, the official Xinhua news agency said.

    The deployment comes amid heightened tensions between Chinaand its neighbours over disputed waters, with Beijing declaring air defence rights over islands controlled by Japan at the weekend, provoking a furious international reaction.

    Beijing took effective control of Scarborough shoal, claimed by Manila and just 200 kilometres (120 miles) from the Philippines, last year.

    It keeps up nearly daily pressure in the South China Sea, which it claims almost in its entirety and where Vietnam and others have competing claims to some of the islets.

    China’s vessels also frequently patrol near the disputed East China Sea islands known as Senkaku in Tokyo, which controls them, and in China as Diaoyu.

    The Liaoning’s latest mission is to test the equipment it carries and is “a normal arrangement in the carrier’s scheduled training”, Xinhua said, citing Chinese navy authorities.

    The carrier is a refurbished vessel purchased from Ukraine. It went into service in September 2012, and top naval commanders have promised the country will have more such ships.

  • Guest23

    Well that escalated quickly, especially Linette going all nationalist-berserker on everyone.

    They announced that to give a message to Taiwan and especially Japan, now they just gave the heads up that their first aircraft carrier will start it’s naval drills along with several other ships on the South China sea, here in the Philippine side of the internet, some of us are worried, others are not, some feel it’s kind of a dick move with some opportunist mindset on the situation here with the typhoon aftermath.

    • Kai

      LoL, “dick move” is a good way to characterize it.

      • Guest23

        Just a bit surprised though, they just sent the Peace Ark on a humanitarian mission, now they just sent the Liaoning and a lot of other ships on a naval exercise on a tense region along with this announcement of the ADIZ, still debating on what the heads of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in China is thinking about these moves that might alienate a lot of the other countries involved, really bold actions or just bad timing.

        • My_honourable_lord

          Nothing bold about it. America has two aircraft carriers in the area WITH fighter jets. The Liaoning is at this point, just a ship, no fighting capabilities. They just test landed a plane on it. First time. Nothing to worry about. I just read this comment on global times:

          ‘Yes, go to the South China Sea. You wouldn’t want to go through the Miyako Straits if you’ve really pissed off the Japanese. After all, the Japanese last week deployed anti-ship missiles on both sides of the strait to ensure they sink anything they don’t want going through to the Pacific.’

          This one was particularly funny: ‘AirCrap Carrier’

        • Kai

          Yeah, you’re not the only one confused. James Fallow’s piece in The Atlantic had a good summary of this consternation: http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/11/how-to-think-about-the-chinese-air-defense-news/281871/

  • Boris

    Any news report concerning US flying a 52-Bombers above the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands in China and netizen reactions? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011)

  • Germandude

    Contrary to that, your posts are all based on facts. And because you were so right on everything you posted, you simply deleted a bunch of your posts because you realized that this is not the right place to spill your brainfarts.

    You don’t wanna upset Japanese, Americans and Pillipinos… Bullshit, I bet neither here would give a damn about some shit that some retard named linette lee is posting.

    So, conclusion: Shut up simpleton.

    • linette lee

      Apparently what I wrote upset retard like you. So retard like you do care. Don’t talk to me anymore. Jerk.

      • Germandude

        I talk to whom it suits me. And if you post bullshit, I will point that out and comment on it. Like it or not.

        What about my suggestion to you that your next beauty operation is postponed and you get a brain?

        • linette lee

          I’m not Korean. I don’t do operation. dumba55.

          • Germandude

            Well, looks like you should.

  • TheSOP

    “Your judgement is clouded and you can not see.”

    Laughably ironic thing for you to say. Bias and double standards are the core of Chinese-chauvinism.

  • carmouflagger

    You mean Kedafu?

  • don mario

    these photos are shocking! too much death and destruction, it looks like an earthquake hit. the ccp needs to burn in hell.

  • 5,000 years of uncivilization

    Pretty sure the blast was sparked by someone tossing a cigarette into a sewage drain like they commonly do here in Qingdao. I see it all the time and wondered how dangerous that could be. Turns out, it’s dangerous.

  • 5,000 years of uncivilization

    Pretty sure someone tossed a cigarette into a sewage drain as that is the local custom here in Qingdao for smokers.

  • Marcus

    Last Week End when walking in Shanghai I smelt a gaz leak near a new construction. I have called the police just to let them know and it brought me more problems than I thought…. 2 minutes to get a servicein English, 5 mintues for them to understand what I was saying and their first question was “what happened?”. I tried to explain them that I had no idea and after 5 minutes again of “where are you?” Etc. I hang up. They called me back 3 times (5 / 10 / 15 minutes later) to ask me the same questions “What happened? Where are you?” Etc. – I tried to explain that gaz could lead to explosion but no “what happened?” Etc. At the last call, the guy asked me “Do you need help?” – “Heu… No” – “So why do you call us?” I got crazy and start to shout at him and good point my wife was around to calm down the situation. It just ended in “OK, next time if you need help, call us”. By checking the news it seems there was no explosion in Shanghai at least but one sure is certain, if one day it happens again, I’ll do like everybody, I’ll ran away and won’t try to tell anyone.

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