Ang Lee Wins Best Director Oscar for ‘Life of Pi’, Chinese Reactions

Chinese director Ang Lee wins Best Director Oscar for "Life of Pi" at the 85th Academy Awards.

From Sina Weibo:

#Ang Lee#

Life of Pi Dominates Oscars With Wins in 4 Categories, Ang Lee Happily Eats Hamburger on Street While Holding Oscar Statuette

At the 85th Academy Awards, Li An [Ang Lee] won his second Academy Award for Best Director with Life of Pi. Also winning awards for Original Score, Visual Effects, and Cinematography, he said in Chinese at the end of his acceptance speech: “谢谢” ["Thank you"]. After the end of the awards ceremony, someone captured a photo of Ang Lee happily eating a hamburger by the roadside, the Oscar statuette still gripped tightly in his hand. Netizens lovingly called him “the Great Foodie” and joked, “I have finally found a characteristic I share with Ang Lee.” But, do the Oscars not provide food/catering?!

Chinese director Ang Lee eating an In-N-Out hamburger after the 85th Academy Awards, while still holding onto his Oscar statuette.

Ang Lee’s acceptance speech for his Best Director Oscar, on popular Chinese video-sharing website Youku:

Comments from Sina Weibo:

文茜小妹大:

Ang Lee’s name was displayed on the top of Taipei 101. His speech today moved every Taiwanese person. He knows that this is just a small island, and though he had to accomplish his movie dreams in the U.S., he has never forgotten that it is Chinese culture that nurtured a part of him and where he comes from. His life transcends East and West, transcends religion, transcends gender, transcends the conflicts between desires and ethics. Ang Lee puts himself at such a low position that he can see the tenderness of every soul.

孙传芳:

#Ang Lee# He made a movie that Americans like and won an American award, and yet there is a bunch of Chinese people excited and overjoyed for this… Sigh… I’m not speaking good or ill about Ang Lee, but the values of our countrymen…

zeng_龙海:

Also as a Chinese, I should be happy for Ang Lee’s Oscar win, but with that movie of his instead using dirty filthy India as its backdrop, spreading to the world Indian culture, I feel deep inside he long ago lost his Chinese heart, and I don’t feel his winning makes me very much pride. Just like not feeling pride when Taiwan’s entertainment industry is recognized by the world! Only because I have a true [mainland] Chinese heart!

吴淑平:

Speaking of Ang Lee, people are just moved because he has never abandoned his wife, with many women always saying how one has to find someone like Ang Lee when finding a husband. But, do you know? Good husbands are not to be found but to be cultivated by women. Back then when Ang Lee had just graduated and stayed at home writing scripts, without any success, his wife supported him for more than seven years, and not only didn’t abandon him but also kept encouraging him to persevere. Let’s ask how many women now can do this?

水木丁:

Let’s talk a bit about Mrs. Lee as well. Many think Mrs. Lee hit the jackpot, but many people only see Ang Lee’s success and wealth, without understanding how much pressure there is in the industry of creative art. For artists who can’t produce good work, it’s easy to get emotional, have psychological crises, and even go crazy if difficulties can’t be overcome. From all kinds of information, we can see that Mrs. Lee is emotionally stable, of strong spirit, and a woman with her own career career and opinions who can support her husband. It’s Ang Lee who hit the jackpot in running into her!

Chinese director Ang Lee with his wife Jane Lin at the 85th Oscars.

香港陶傑: 

The second time Ang Lee got an Oscar, he said “Thank you, Taiwan” on stage, without mentioning “China” at all. Of course. His last work Lust, Caution was already determined a “Chinese traitor movie” by [mainland] Chinese officials. Ang Lee, bitten by the snake, even after winning support from “foreign powers”, ai yo, how could he dare claim connections with “China” again? Do you approve of Ang Lee calling himself “Chinese” on stage?

诺燕塔:

The [micro-] blogger is truly boring, pettily sore and dark. I watched Life of Pi, it was very moving, and even if the director was Mauritian, so what?

四卓:

Thanking Taiwan and thanking Hong Kong, thanking Shanghai, thanking Sichuan, thanking Dongbei, aren’t they all the same, all China? Don’t be overly sensitive and insecure.

南河-:

The [micro-] blogger is wrong in common sense: The People’s Republic of China and the Republic of China are the same country: China. Thanking Taiwan is thanking China.

知無涯者全:

What we mean by compatriots is us still being able to send our best wishes when others have been able to throw off their shackles and are heading toward a brighter future.

EricChong64:

To be an international director, one must have an international perspective, without having to always emphasize one’s country, people, and five thousand years of culture. Ang Lee in this respect when compared to Wang Jiawei [Wong Kar-wai], Wu Yusen [John Woo], and Feng Xiaogang is on a whole different level. Lee deserves the respect.

潘影帝-Wilber-妍妍:

Taiwan is his hometown, and his family is also in Taiwan. Thanking Taiwan is a given [obvious, natural]. The word “Chinese” can mean Chinese nationality, but also Chinese ethnicity/heritage.

手机用户155742598:

Great masters belong to the world, not to the Party. Why give art a label? If we have to blame, we can only blame the current state of Mainland China. A bunch of old guys controlling education and the arts, what can you expect them to understand?

探险队长:

Who cares if you approve or not. With the importance of Hong Kong and Taiwan getting lower and lower, and the sense of existence getting weaker and weaker, whether you approves or not is no longer something we care about anymore~

记者刘向南:

Winning Best Director again, Ang Lee: All Owed to Taiwan / Ang Lee thanked Taiwan multiple times in his English acceptance speech, saying, “I cannot make this movie without the help of Taiwan. We shot there. I wanna thank everybody there who helped us, especially the city of Taichung, my Indian crew. I love you.” However, when Xinhua News Agency forwarded the news of his win yesterday, the quoted speech omitted the part of him thanking Taiwan multiple times, and the CCTV-6 Movie Channel also deleted these parts when it broadcasted his speech.

[Note: Videos clips of Ang Lee's full, uncut acceptance speech were readily found online, including this one report viewed 740k+ times on leading Chinese video-sharing website Youku's homepage, and the above embedded version viewed 227k+ times.]

玉人不熟:

All of [Sina] Weibo is talking about Ang Lee’s wife, as if she’s an illiterate peasant woman whose 30-year marriage with Ang Lee was her having purchased the right stock and then selling it at a good price. Those who talk like this have no respect for women and marriages in their bones, saying things like “old woman”, “ugly, supportive wife” and “bitterness comes before sweetness” … Marriages under the influence of this kind of distorted and utilitarian system of values is indeed like what Eileen Chang said, treating marriage as long-term legal prostitution.

Chinese director Ang Lee with his wife Jane Lin at the 85th Oscars.

夏商:

Ang Lee won an Oscar again, and the other coast calls him “Son of Taiwan” while here the mainland once again starts talking about his Chinese ethnicity. Actually, while the birth of a good work of art will always have a certain relationship to the system [country] and culture of one’s person, it ultimately it is the result of that person’s own effort and talent. The honor belongs to the artist himself. Stop dragging in country, nationality/ethnicity, blood/lineage, and other such “grand” things.

武爷改行卖假药:

After Ang Lee got the Oscar, Chinese women one after another started talking about how stock-picking strategies, and Chinese men one after another started talking about the benefits of long-term investment… Truly a fucking amazing land….

景目尸:

When Ang Lee won the Oscar again and thanked Taiwan on stage, some people are debating him not mentioning China. Life of Pi was shot in Taiwan and received assistance there, and what more, he is a Taiwanese, so him thanking [Taiwan] is very natural. Chinese people still lack self-confidence, using honors and awards for self-esteem, attaching celebrities and their halos to China, just like what happened with Jeremy Lin. This mindset is understandable, but modern China’s little contribution to world civilization and inability to export its values is what’s really worth debating and reflecting upon.

xibone:


Boycott Ang Lee! He thanked Taiwan but not China at the Oscar Awards Ceremony. I’d rather go eat a red bean pie at McDonald’s than go see Life of Pi!!!

小文青其实是脑残君:

Once again I see so many people incessantly associating glory to themselves. ORZ, the media is truly what disgusts me the most now, the one and only thing… Ang Lee’s last sentence was “thank you, Taiwan.” You guys don’t understand it? ╮(╯▽╰)╭ Such a wonderful director, but how come he suddenly becomes devalued the moment you guys start talking.

东海平:

Why delete the part of Ang Lee’s speech where he said “Thank you, Taiwan, especially Taichung”?! Aren’t the two coasts [Taiwan and the mainland] supposed to be the same family?

孟乙人:

My English is not good, CET-4 only, but even with my listening comprehension I could tell Ang Lee, from beginning to end, was all about thanking Taiwan and the city of Taichung, without a single word about China. Those who are so excited and cried @杨幂, saying “the pride of China” @稀土部队, what are you guys getting so worked up about? He has nothing to do with you!

凤凰Uradio-小路:

My Taiwan friends just told me that when Xinhua News Agency reported Ang Lee’s win, it intentionally deleted the parts where he repeatedly thanked Taiwan. I really want to know why this is still necessary in this day and age? Then, because of this rumor (I don’t know how to verify it), the whole Taiwanese internet is madly cursing Mainland China. This really was something that was completely unnecessary.

Overall, most Chinese netizens were happy for Ang Lee and his win.

Chinese director Ang Lee during his Best Director Oscar acceptance speech.

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  • vincent

    Good Movie and a great director, congrats. Why all the butthurt about not mentioning China? Is there some reason he should do so? He could have mentioned the VFX team that worked on the movie though.

    • Chang Liu

      That was the best part of the film. The rest is cringe worthy.

      • vincent

        Sorry can’t agree with you there, I thought overall it was a good movie. Just because a movie has a lot of VFX doesn’t mean it’s going to be a hit, case in point ‘Battleship’…now that was a cringe worthy movie.

        • Chang Liu

          Read my mini review of the film:

          “Ang Lee has directed many great films and this isn’t one of them. Trust the Oscars to award best director to one of his worst films

          1. Hamfisted spirituality is shamefully shallow. (books fault as much as the film)

          2. The acting is unbelievably doughy and uninspiring.

          3. Over reliance on CGI works well in some scenes but not others.

          4. The Script is so conceited and trite it makes me cringe.

          On the plus side, the CGI tiger was amazing. He deserve an award.”

          • MeCampbell30

            Someone missed the point of the entire movie.

          • Chang Liu

            Whatever, if you have an opinion spit it out.

          • lacompacida

            OK. OK. You, Chang Liu, missed the whole point of the entire movie. Clear enough for you ?

          • Chang Liu

            Care to explain to me WHAT the point of the movie was?

          • vincent

            You didn’t have to re-post it twice to make a point, I already read your review. I think for a newcomer the lead actor did a fairly decent job, this being his first movie, this kid was a virtual nobody before he got this role.

            Hmmm I have a question, what is your opinion of the movie ‘Slumdog Millionare’ ? Do you think the various accolades it earned were well deserved?

          • Chang Liu

            Whats Slumdog Millionare got to do with this? Are you insinuating I am racist? Sorry if I don’t go for obvious crowd pleasers as I consider the sentiment hollow and trite, so no I haven’t seen it. Don’t intend to either. Satyajit Ray’s Pather Panchali is a film that I wouldn’t mind seeing again.
            When a great film by an Indian director about the real India not some Western Orientalist poverty-porn comes I will no doubt forked out for it.

          • vincent

            Where did that come from? I was more curious as that was an award winning movie with a foreign cast as well, which had a rather ‘fantastical’ plot as well so was actually interested in what your take was on that movie. If i’m not wrong it was also the first movie for both the lead actor and actress?
            You are over-thinking my question, why didn’t you just answer with your viewpoint?

          • Chang Liu

            I did, “I consider the sentiment hollow and trite” of such films. We all love an underdog story but does it really explore the issue of Poverty in a highly ossified hierarchical society? Danny Boyle is a great director and I am sure he made lots of money with it.

            As to the issue of new actors, Panther Panchali was made with a shoe string budget, amateur actors yet still resonate today depite being made in 1950s.

            It is not any technical issues (inexperienced actors) that I have a gripe with but the honesty of which the issues explored in the film, as such, Slumdog doesn’t quality.

            My problem with Life of Pi is admittedly mostly not Ang Lee’s fault but the fault of the source material (Yann Martel’s bloody book). The central premise of a spiritual journey is incredibly shallow and hamfisted and not even a good argument for God. The device of a writer (Mr Martel) hearing the story is so conceited. The repeated narration of his (obviously Judeo Christian conception of god) despite hiding under the guise having followed all the major religions is thinly disguised, laughable, whiny and unbearably exasperating. The end where the adult Pi posits this unbelievably fatuous question to the writer and he gave the ‘correct’ answer is just rubbing me up all the wrong ways. The fact this piece of literary turd ended up winning the Booker prize has done the prize irreparable damage. BUT it is visually stunning, I just wish the story wasn’t so trite.

            Edit. The book reminds of me of a incredibly self-satisfied children’s book.

          • Chang Liu

            The story in both case are corny as hell. That for me is an artistic death sentence.

          • vincent

            Well that’s what I wanted to hear :)

        • Kai

          Hey, wait a second…

          Battleship was awesome.

      • slob

        Was a great film but the ending was a bit ‘in your face’. I felt like he didn’t ease into it and it just happened so suddenly compared to the easy free flow of the rest of the film. Unless that was his intention as director, then yeah he did it pretty well. The main indian actor kid reminds me a lot of the way Rajesh from The Big Bang Theory acts – comical with a hint of emotion. If they put Rajesh in there I honestly couldn’t tell the difference.

  • donkeykong

    It was great to see some intelligent comments such as:
    “What we mean by compatriots is us still being able to send our best wishes when others have been able to throw off their shackles and are heading toward a brighter future.”

  • Dr Sun

    Great movie well deserved.

    God I kiss Carl’s Jnr burgers sometimes

    • Jay K.

      i believe this was an in-n-out burger.

      but yeah i understand. during my college days when I knew I did good in the exams, i treated myself to a carl’s jr.

      • Kai

        One of the best things that happened to my existence in Shanghai was the opening of Carl’s Jr. I probably shaved 10 years off my life with Double Western Bacon Cheeseburgers.

        The whole CaliBurger fiasco was shameful though. They tried and failed so hard.

  • YourSupremeCommander

    Pretty soon they will have CGI actors go on stage to accept their virtual Oscars.
    Everything is all a dream.

    • Chang Liu

      I am sure they will do a better job than most of these Oscar jokers. I mean Jennifer Facedunk won Best Actress over Emmanuelle Riva? What a travesty!

  • http://mykafkaesquelife.blogspot.com/ My Kafkaesque Life

    Taiwanese TV news were reporting nonstop about Ang Lee’s victory, Taiwanese are so proud and happy, that he thanked Taiwan. He didn’t mention China, because why should he? What has China to do with him, his victory and Taiwan? Oh yeah, that bogus claim, that the country is part of their communist empire. Sorry, nobody got the memo here yet.

    • Hongwu Emperor

      I think he was more concerned about being grateful to those wh helped him in his movie and his homeland [taiwan] than with political issues, but…

    • Anon992

      Good job he’s not from the Senkaku islands!

    • filabusta

      Yeah I don’t think he was raised to praise the mainland because his family ran from the party in 1949.

      • Kai

        I don’t think Ang Lee was thinking and thanking in such political terms as “giving thanks to one’s country”. As far as I know, I don’t think Ang Lee has ever really disassociated himself from being “Chinese” anyway and has paid plenty of homage to his background, heritage, and culture.

        The travesty of this entire thing are the people politicizing it as if it is some sort of slight to anyone. Taiwan was where he filmed much of the movie. The guy was just giving credit where it is due.

        • filabusta

          Yeah but I’m sure that he considered the implications of the subtleties of his speech.

          • Kai

            I’m not sure I think of Ang Lee being so calculating. I really don’t. Shrug, like I said, I think this is mostly people politicizing it to be a slight when none was intended.

        • Anon992

          Somewhere down the road it’s political because ‘what is within our powers to to do, is within our powers not to do’. Ang Li did not thank China or make any reference to Taiwan being part of China.

          Of course if he had of thanked China, that would be preposterous. The only twat on god’s green earth who could film something in Taiwan and then thank China is that sellout Jackie Chan.

        • don mario

          how can that be a travesty, when the whole country is educated that taiwan is part of china(i know i have to hear about it everytime the word taiwan is mentioned when i talk to a chinese person) and the guy thanks taiwan (what they believe is only a province) instead of the whole country china? a travesty? no…its to be expected.

          • Kai

            Uh, me thinking people politicizing his acceptance speech is a travesty doesn’t mean I didn’t, in part, expect it. I don’t really understand your disagreement with my word choice.

          • don mario

            i would of just used to word ‘normal’… for mainland chinese.

          • Kai

            Okay… but you initially asked how it can be a “travesty”. Did I use “travesty” incorrectly? You’ve left me wondering how what I’m referring to can’t be seen as a travesty.

      • OmgwtfBbqstfu

        Its like an american thanking the uk, you know because long ago america used to be british property;)

    • meo fio

      Oscar award ceremony was setup by movie studios in order to make themselves look respectable. Taiwanese sure are stupid.

  • christina

    IN-N-OUT!!!!!!!!

    • Dr Sun

      Awesome post

  • BiggJ

    First off, great movie… way to go on winning the award.

    Listen to this tool shed….
    “Boycott Ang Lee! He thanked Taiwan but not China at the Oscar Awards Ceremony. I’d rather go eat a red bean pie at McDonald’s than go see Life of Pi!!!”

    Why should he say anything about china? It’s like if I “a Canadian” won an oscar and the american’s getting pissed because I never mentioned them or thanked them. It’s fucking retarded. Now I know mainlanders think taiwan is theirs….well…show me proof that it is. It don’t bother me one way or the other, but if i were to look at the facts I would call Taiwan a country.

    1. Taiwan has its own national flag.

    2. Taiwan has its own national anthem.

    3. Taiwan has its own unique passport.

    4. Taiwan has diplomatic relationships with 23 countries in the world, and trade relationships with many more countries.

    5. Taiwan has its own president.

    6. Taiwan has its own government with 3 branches: executive, legislative, and judicial branch.

    7. Taiwan has its own army, navy, and air force.

    8. Taiwan has its own independent currency.

    9. Taiwan has its own national bank.

    10. Taiwan has its own constitution.

    11. Taiwan enjoys higher income, better hygiene, being more educated than most countries in Asia.

    12. Most importantly, Taiwan is never conquered by People’s Republic of China.

    Sound like a country to me.So back to why this guy should thank china for anything is crazy. Even on chinese tv they blocked out him thanking Taiwan…hahah. What a bunch of idiots.

    • Hongwu Emperor

      Article 11. is totally unrealted to sovereignity claims. life standards means nothing in regards to one’s sovereignity lol ¬¬’

      Both Denmark and Sudan are sovereign countries, for example. no matter how poor one is, or how rich another is.

      • BiggJ

        Fair enough…but what about the other 11 points?

        • Chang Liu

          Chillax, Taiwan is called Republic of China alright? As far as I am concerned Taiwans is more traditionally Chinese than China is and a better representation of Chinese values and culture.

          • BiggJ

            Yes I agree with you. They are more traditionally Chinese then the mainlanders. They are called Republic of China, but not the “The Peoples republic of China” ..2 completely different ideology’s …a communist government and a democratic government.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Kongzi supposed family descendants are living in Taiwan ;)

          • BiggJ

            Yeah, I’m sure all the intellectuals and free thinkers fucking bolted to Taiwan when the commies came in. lol

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Not necessarily related to ‘free-thinkers’… if you were a ‘free-thinker’ that spewed a single word about communism in Taiwan under Chiang I bet you’ll be dead.

            But usually people related to the KMT such as officials,military commanders,etc also came to Taiwan. And a lot of relics too! (which without knowing it for sure, saved from Cultural revolution destruction)

          • Chang Liu

            Ermmm no Taiwan was autocratic for a very long time. KMT committed countless atrocities against the indigenous population of Taiwan. The information are freely available, please stop making silly black and white generalisations. Free thinkers and intellectuals where the ones who either joined the communists (later payed a dear price during the cultural revolution)or left the country often through HK. You must be American.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            the KMT did some pretty heavy shit on China [during ww2] and Taiwan but at least the damage was lesser, compared to the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution so…

          • mr.wiener

            We had 2/28 holiday just yesterday to comemorate the “white terror” in Taiwan, when lots of educated taiwanese got disappeared.

          • Chang Liu

            Exactly! Chiangkai shek is a totally incompetent ego maniac. I dread to think what he would have done to China had he won, not that Mao did any better. We were screwed either way.
            This book is a great biography of the man if anyone is interested:

            http://www.amazon.co.uk/Generalissimo-Chiang-Kai-shek-Struggle-Modern/dp/0674060490

          • Justin

            True. Other than their embrace of the free market the Guomindang wasn’t too different from the Communist Party in that both were autocratic and organized along Leninist principles of “democratic centralism”

          • Chang Liu

            True about the autocracy part. Where did you get the KMT Leninist principles from? I didn’t know that. I thought Jiang Jieshi hated the Soviet Union after his brief visit.

          • donkeykong

            Kongzi is known by most Western people as Confucius

          • Hongwu Emperor

            I know that lol ^_^

          • mr.wiener

            Except for the retarded professor who lives in china and says rude things about the HKers.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            lol xD

          • Chang Liu

            I am not going to insult your intelligence by explaining to you how PRC isn’t communist and hasn’t heeded any communist ideology since 1978, in practice (admittedly still taught). Only American living under the legacy of Cold War propaganda still think that way. But you are right, there is a difference and that is PRC is a Plutocracy and the other is a very young Democracy.

          • BiggJ

            The commies are a smart bunch. They just modernized theirs way. It’s still a one party system that controls everything.The best way to describe how they run things now is a capitalist totalitarian state….but still run by commies.

          • Chang Liu

            As much as I don’t like it there are genuine reasons for China given its size and diversity to be what it is. Don’t mean things can’t be done better. Just isn’t black and white.

          • don mario

            how about, ‘a socialist, with chinese characteristics… totalitarian state.’ lol

          • Chang Liu

            No they are not, they copied the developmental model broadly lumped together as the ‘Asian Model’ where the State supervises economic development and actively participate in achieving economic goals. It is copied from Singapore, to a lesser extent Japan and Korea. If you bothered to pick any book on China written after 1978 they will tell you the same…

          • BiggJ

            Plutocracy discribes mainland china quite well. I don’t know whats better…that or communism.

          • Chang Liu

            Did I ever in any way shape or form insinuate it was better?

          • the other guy

            I tend to agree with you on most things, but all things aside, the argument about China & “Plutocracy” being something different than “Communism” is not so black & white as you put it.

            It is true, that after 1978 China slowly replaced it’s Communist ideology for a more pragmatic approach. Nevertheless, modern day China still benefits greatly from some traits of its old Communist past. Such as the one party rule that manages all levels of society. Often extrapolating from Macro to the Micro,etc…

            I guess all I am trying to say is that China’s Plutocracy is being run from a Communist structure as opposed to modern day London that has a Plutocracy with a different democratic structure.

            After all Plutocracy has no defined or clear philosophy and no clear ideology besides, of course, “power to the wealthy” So in a way, each Plutocracy is never alike, as it has no defined set “rules”, it can vary radically from one another.

            This is why I do not think Plutocracy is different than Communism. Perhaps China can be both, or maybe it is neither. All I am saying is, both traits are not mutually exclusive. Think about it…

            P.S

            In a more personal note, this does not mean that I subscribe to the more “Western-centric” views of a Comunist China… and its “Cold war propaganda”

          • Chang Liu

            Centralised government are exclusive to Communism. China in the Dynasty era had a sophisticated all encompassing bureaucracy.

          • the other guy

            True, but it still does not refute my point.
            China’s current centralized government and one party rule is without a doubt a legacy of communism, not feudal china.

          • Chang Liu

            Actually no. If you look at the land administration divisions and distributed bureaucratic hierarchy, it owns a lot to Dynastic China. Some scholars define Chinese bureaucracy as stratified horizontal layers where as the Soviets are a lot more vertical.

    • Chang Liu

      1. The flag of Republic of China

      2. The national anthem of Republic of China

      3. The Passport of Republic of China

      4. Diplomatic relationship with Republic of CHina

      etc. etc.

      Taiwan is China but a different China.
      Thanking Taiwan = Thanking China, Republic of China, DUH!

      • Hongwu Emperor

        This makes sense, ‘Republic of China’ was the name given to the mainland also, before the commies.

      • BiggJ

        Yeah it’s not mainland commie china.Just because it has the word “china” in both names, does not make it one country or even close to being that.. Take England and Canada for example. We still have the queens head on our coins and our $20 dollar bill and all kind of other shit. Don’t mean England can tell us want to do or claim they own us. Canada is it’s own country. Same as Taiwan is completely separate from mainland china.It’s own country.

        • Chang Liu

          What ever, if the British Monarchy lost the civil war to British Republicans and escaped to Canada to establish a country called New Britain then the analogy would be fine, as it stands it doesn’t. Completely different history. In fact it annoys me no end that those who are ignorant of the history between China and Taiwan spouts such non sense based on their own history which has nothing to do with the case at hand.

          • BiggJ

            ok, well the shitty analogy aside…..do you think Taiwan is it’s own country? That’s what im getting at.

          • BiggJ

            No need be prick about it. I just want to know why mainland china thinks taiwan is part of them. I say they are not. I would say Taiwan is it own country complete separate of Mainland china. That’s what I think on it. And all im asking you is what do you think? You still never gave a straight answer.

          • don mario

            because of face.

          • Chang Liu

            Because I am not his wet nurse.

          • don mario

            random.

          • Chang Liu

            Read wikipidia.

        • Chang Liu

          I am happy for Taiwan to be whatever it’s people want it to be. Not what the West with vested geopolitical interests want it to be.

          • http://twitter.com/keyworks Jay Kim

            @google-ccf17fd2371440ac427444f91145ba69:disqus Of course Taiwanese are ethnically Chinese, we are not stupid. I think what people mean to say is that Taiwanese identity is not the same as Mainland Chinese identity (and thus colloquially, Taiwan is not China).

            In this day and age, countries are not determined by blood alone, but by the beliefs and values of common people, and it is obvious to me that Taiwanese share wildly different beliefs and values then people who’ve grown up in Mainland China (and the same for Hong Kong-ers).

            I love how some Chinese or Asians in general get all insecure and nationalistic about things like this but they have to realize that most people in North America are just amused because they don’t have a ‘nationality’ in the same sense Chinese people do (that is, the right of blood).

          • Chang Liu

            Good glad you are not stupid.

            In the past there were 2 competing models of nation states. One that goes from Nation to state (Germany) and one from State to Nation (UK). Key difference is ‘Nation to State’ countries’ claim to legitimacy is to build a state based on a share ethnic linage such was the case of Germany, Japan, Italy. ‘State to nation’ such as the UK were created to unify diverse nations (Scots, Walsh) under one State superstructure. This btw conveniently explains why Germany, Japan and Italy readily accept Fascism. Both China and USA don’t quite fill those models. Thus what legitimises each nation state is a lot more complicated. Making comparison between US and China is as useless as beating a dead donkey.

            Rather than try to understand the difference you appeared to only read this from an ‘Euro-centric’ position which is derived from their very different history.

            The situation on the ground in Taiwan is this. Most people want to remain under the current circumstances indefinitely, with decreasing number of people for outright independence and outright unification, because it benefits both country a great deal. The Taiwanese economy is in symbiosis with China without which it would falter. China, in particular Fujian province benefited greatly from the economic investment of which many Taiwanese trace their ancestry from.

            It is a political stalemate.

        • Chang Liu

          Did you read what I wrote? Did I say it was mainland China? I said it was a different China, what part of that makes it the mainland?

      • El Puma R.

        Can you replace the “etc etc” with something?

        No !!!

        In fact they should call it “People’s republic of materialistic, resentful and xenophobic China”

        • Hongwu Emperor

          You lack of intelect is disturbing…

          He [chang liu] was refering to the REPUBLIC OF CHINA. Which is the name of the government that controls Taiwan, not the PEOPLE’S republic of china, which is the one controlling ‘mainland’ China.

          That’s better explained to you, or want me to use 2 potatoes?? ¬¬

          • El Puma R.

            Controlling? yeah right. Next troll please

          • Hongwu Emperor

            See? controlling has ‘trolling’ in it.

          • Chang Liu

            Please use 2 potatoes to explain it. He still won’t get it through his moronically simple world view of black and white, communist vs capitalist dichotomies fed by a media only interested in creating simple narratives. Anyone who actually bothered to pick up a book won’t be making such simple minded mistake.

        • Chang Liu

          Are you stupid!? Yes of-course I can and it still makes sense. I just can’t be bothered to type it out. I will do one just to indulge you

          5.Republic of China has its own president.

          Happy?

      • Alphy

        It’s fine, call it what you want. That’s not what Taiwanese feels. The distinction is simple and I think most will agree. Taiwanese are of Chinese heritage, but not govern by the communist party of China. If you consider all land that have Chinese heritage to be of China then fine, but don’t use the Great Britain/UK analogy as it doesn’t correlate, as Taiwan is not under the political control of mainland.

        • Hongwu Emperor

          but that is the name of the nation. ‘republic of china’ is not ‘people’s republic’ which is the term referring to communist china.

          • don mario

            its a mess. lol, chiang made the most dumb ass move for the future of taiwan possible when he called taiwan the ROC and made the (completely delusional) mission to reclaim china.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            It was the mix of ‘tough guy move’ with ‘completely impossible mission’.
            But maybe he called it ROC to say its the continuation of the republic of china [his govt]. just to state he wouldnt be part of the commmies, or something.

            Anyways, historically Taiwan has been linked with Chinese history since Zheng cheng gong [koxinga?] so… it can be called ‘china’ also.

            Even the Qing later set up a Yamen, and a governor.

          • don mario

            it can, but in hindsight… proved to be a pretty bad move. 2 chinas isnt working out so well for them nowadays.

          • Chang Liu

            Thats what 1 country 2 system is designed for, not really HK even though it is a testing bed, actually the real goal is the unification of Taiwan.

          • don mario

            and that hasnt happened, because it was designed by the mainland, for the mainland. taiwan said talk a walk to that idea.

          • Chang Liu

            It IS happening in HK and China.

          • don mario

            hong kong and macau. big woop.

          • Chang Liu

            To create a workable political frame-work for both. The economic reality is China doesn’t need Taiwan, Taiwan needs China. I am not sure who is getting a better deal here. Ask any Taiwanese businessman/woman.

          • don mario

            and ‘create a workable political frame-work for both’ means slowly absorbing taiwan into the mainland, which is what is happening with hong kong right now. hong kongers dont seem too happy about it last time i checked.

            taiwan can benefit more economically … sure, they have a good economic relationship now… keep it as it is.

          • http://www.gofuckyourself.org/ Glockenspiel McRibbontropp

            “China doesn’t need Taiwan”….What an incredibly ignorant, delusional statement. China would be a hundred times the shit hole it is without the Taiwanese investing and building in the mainland.

          • OmgwtfBbqstfu

            1 country 2 systems? More like 1 country, 1 dog.

          • Alphy

            Right, a mess in names, I agree. Nevertheless, what I say its true. Governance is different than culture heritage. National sovereignty rings true for when US first began, and in many other countries that were once colony, it also rings true for Taiwan today.

        • Chang Liu

          Not the way Taiwanese feels, is that why they voted the pro unification KMT into government twice?

          • Alphy

            Actually it is more of maintaining the status quo, and maybe eventual re-unification, if China somehow agree to various things like dual party system, and separation of power in government, democracy to name a few. Just ask yourself two things to see how Taiwanese actually “feels”, 1. if the pan-blue coalition were to say we want to re-unify today, do you think they will win vote? 2. if there is no military threats looming over declaration of independence, how would public opinion in politic change?

            This of course is not the only topic that swing vote, just like you can’t claim in US that Americans favor gun control, or abortion, just because we have a Democrat president. Though in your analogy, it is even more off, as even the pan-blue doesn’t want re-unification without changes in the political structure of China mainland.

          • don mario

            none of those things are realistic though..

          • Alphy

            No one say it is for the current situation, thus is why the status quo is preserved for so long. There is also no chance in Taiwan that they will accept a CCP rule. The most realistic situation for unification is that one of the two government collapse, or become extremely unstable.

          • Butsu

            My girlfriend is Taiwanese and so far all the other Taiwanese people I’ve met (ages 18-25) have all had some feelings towards that Taiwan should be Taiwan and not the R.O.C etc. They all also recognize that they are from Chinese heritage but are very fast to say “I’m Taiwanese not Chinese”. So I wanted to ask you Alphy is this somewhat normal, or did I just happen to meet some ‘special’ Taiwanese people?

          • Chang Liu

            My best friend is Taiwanese and all her friends and their families want eventual unification just not with Communist China, so whats your point? The are a range of very vocal opinion, citing any anecdotal evidence is pointless.

          • Butsu

            I’m just curious that’s all. Because my friends doesn’t want any unification at all, and that’s all I hear about. I want a bigger perspective.

          • Chang Liu

            Her family is local in the sense they have been in Taiwan for over 5 generations but is very traditional. Her family has extensive ties to their other family branch in Fujian. Her dad travels every month. She doesn’t want unification with the mainland as it is right now but sees a future when mainland develops and becomes democratic.

          • JR

            That re-unification could come by the Taiwanese using force to take back the mainland once the mainland collapses and has another civil war due to corruption etc. Or maybe the mainland will eventually pick a fight with the US and get their asses kicked and the US will install the Taiwanese government to administer the mainland. After all, just 4 US subs, a minor part of their arsenal, can *completely* wipe out *every single Chinese city* with a population of >200,000. Unification can come in all kinds of flavours, bring it on.

          • Chang Liu

            That would be great!

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Then china in response wiped out any non-chinese city in Asia, and later ravages the US on the process, wiping out half of its population and destroying swathes of its territory with nuclear weaponry, or ‘conventional’ warfare.

            The rest of the world die from starvation and nuclear fallout, alongisde with an completely destroyed global economy!! the rest of the planet kill themselves in civil wars and a massive chaos left by the clash.

            Yeaah… Good plan, what the name of it eh? JR’s apocalypse? well, good luck then.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Shovon-Chowdhury/507224224 Shovon Chowdhury

            Dude! I live in Asia too. Delhi, to be precise. What did we do to you?

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Nothing, Shovon.

            I’ve nothing against other asian countries, but I was simply clarifying to ‘JR’ that his crazy plan of ”the us attacking China” would backfire terribly on any american allies [specially on Asia, because of missile range and proximity], or the american itself.

            And a war on such magnitude on modern days would assuremutual extermination, (fallout,destruction of crops,etc etc) on the planet.

            In fact what Asia truly need is to unite! [including southeast asia and south asia, such as India and Pakistan] but that’s a distant wish.

          • Alphy

            No she and her friends are not alone. It is very common now because of the term “Chinese” is often directly related with the CCP control government in most people’s mind, in it that they want to make a distinction that they are not under communist rule. Though such a distinction, made by broad declaration like “I’m Taiwanese not Chinese” does bring about negative responses in mainland Chinese.

            There has always been a big pro-independent movement in Taiwan, it is just that people would rather want peace, and are more than willing to sacrifice international recognition for it.

          • Butsu

            Thank you for your reply.

          • Chang Liu

            Not only that, there has alway been a strong pro-unification (again, not with CCP but the general idea of unification.)camp in Taiwan too. The reason they lost their first election to the DDP was actually because of internal fracture within the KMT which split the vote. Their combined vote was still higher then DDP first time around. Western media have conveniently missed that important detail.

          • Chang Liu

            Actually I’ve never made my own position very clear. I want Taiwan to be independent. It is good for Chinese culture that it is. However there are a range of opinions and because of the Western media bias only the pro-independence voice are ever heard, it is a slap in the face for a complex situation and am only trying to point it out.

          • Alphy

            Yeah I figure as much. It is very complicated situation, and it does the world good to know the details.

          • Chang Liu

            It is actually annoying as hell. Every conflict in recent memory (2 iraq wars, Bosnia)have had relatively unbiased broadsheet writeup of the complex nature of the history as a counter-point to the po-faced war mongering of the tabloids at least in the UK. For China and Taiwan, nada, at least I haven’t come across it. That is why so many foreigners don’t even know the basics.

          • Chang Liu

            I don’t disagree.

          • tawhaki

            They voted for KMT because the last leader of the Green party was a criminal, because economic ties with China = money, and because 1/3 of them are Chinese from the mainland. If there was a referendum they would never vote to be part of China. The real Taiwanese I know already resent the mainlanders who forced themselves on their land 50 years ago and continue to control it, they don’t want to be in the same country with another billion of them and have no say about anything. And it’s not like they want to call themselves ROC, but China is basically pointing a gun to their head.

          • Chang Liu

            News flash, the indigenous population of Taiwan accounts for a small percentage of the population. Your so called Taiwanese are of Fujian decent and speak Minan dialect, who have migrated from Mainly steadily of the several centuries. The Taiwanese I have spoken to acknowledge that the current state of affairs is probably the best irrespective of their inclination for unification or independence. Guess they are a pragmatic lot.

          • A guy

            http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2012/04/15/2003530364

            It is a bit biased but this is the most recent I could find. I have seen many sources in the past and the numbers aren’t quite as slanted as this so I question it’s reliability, but the fact that most just want to not rock the boat rings true with everything I have read and or heard from Taiwanese people.

            His statement was that most want independence, but that would mean things would get crazy nasty real fast, so most are willing to go with the “yeah maybe sometime in the future” line. Kinda like telling that creepy neighbor that is stalking you that your just not ready for a relationship so he doesn’t rape you and cut off your head in hopes that someday he’ll get that sugar without force.

            Not declaring your true desires under threat of a holocaust isn’t the same as not having them.

            PS: Taiwanese identity is a stickier thing than any of you seem to realize, some say they are Chinese, some say they are Taiwanese, a few even say they are Japanese, and some just don’t give a shit anymore. I say who am I to tell them anything I just hope they don’t get blowed up.

          • Chang Liu

            “In the latest poll, 32.4 percent of respondents supported “maintaining the status quo and making a decision later,” 29.9 percent chose “maintaining the status quo in perpetuity,” 15.7 percent believed that Taiwan should “maintain the -status quo and declare independence later,” 8.2 percent favored “maintaining the status quo and seeking unification at a later date” and 6.1 percent wanted to declare independence as soon as possible, while only 1.5 percent wanted to seek unification at the earliest possible opportunity.” – exactly. This article is slanted because making a decision later does not exclude unification.

          • Zhegezhege

            That’s a very rosy interpretation of the numbers.
            I’d look at the numbers like this: only 1.5% of the population want to get on with it, and under 10% in total are prepared to say it’s something that they want.
            That leaves 90% of the respondents not saying that they would like to unify. And who can blame them?
            Furthermore, 21.8% are saying that they do want to formally update their statement that they are a separate nation. Twice as many as those who say that they want to unify.
            And there’s more!
            Taking that 32.4%, if we assume that they decide in proportion with the rest of the population (i.e. the population who have decided), then you’re looking at slightly more than one seventh of that 32.4% coming down on the side of pro-unification.
            In other words, 14.3% of the population favour full unification either now or at some point in the future.
            That is a crazy minority.
            For example,
            In the US, 14.3% of people actually believe that Jesus will come back at some point during their lifetime
            In the UK, 14.3% of people carry a knife with them on the way to the shops
            and
            In Taiwan, 14.3% of people actually think that full unification with the mainland would be a good idea.

          • Chang Liu

            “32.4 percent of respondents supported “maintaining the status quo and making a decision later,” 29.9 percent chose “maintaining the status quo in perpetuity ”

            You call that group the don’t want unification camp which is retarded because they are also the don’t want out-right independence either. You automatically assume that this majority group is one and not the other which tells me more about your own politics then those of the respondents, My guess is they are like the swing voters subject to radical change in view depending on circumstances. If China threatens missiles they will be come the independence camp and if China becomes democratic they might swing to the unification camp. My point was the majority wants the status quo (because they are doing well out this situation, did you know because of the special relationship Taiwanese business gets a massive tax break for the first 3-5 years?) which is clearly the case with this poll, whats so hard to understand?

          • Zhegezhege

            Nope.

            I did not say that they are necessarily pro-independence (or, pro formally stating once again that they are indeed a separate country). You are misrepresenting what I wrote. Which seems like a strange thing to do because what I wrote is right next to your comment and anyone can easily see what you’re trying to do.

            To repeat: according to the survey that you yourself posted, over 90% of Taiwanese are not in favour of unification at the present time.

            I know it hurts the feelings of a sensitive, pro-PRC, aiguo like yourself that Taiwan’s people aren’t itching to put their freedom, democracy and high per capita GDP on the clock, submitting their control over their country to a nation that has never known any of that, and has sporadically shelled part of their territory and seems to have written a threat of armed invasion of their country in to their constitution (although to be fair, the constitution doesn’t seem to mean that much in practice). It’s also hard to understand that they wouldn’t want to suddenly join a country with which they only recently agreed how to work direct commercial flights and then be a tiny minority in that country which has extensively re-written history and now has a perverse official version that, amongst other things, casts the Chinese in Taiwan as the descendents of traitors that oppressed China’s only hope, the CCP, for decades before fleeing to the protection of foreigners. Because generally speaking, wealthy minorities seen as possible traitors have always got along great in undemocratic, nationalistic countries. Fortunately, I’m sure that you can handle a bit more cognitive dissonance.

            And just to finally check… a guy calling himself Chang Liu posting multiple times on a single Chinasmack thread, getting touchy about Taiwan, managing to make a reference to the Iraq war and twice mentioning that foreigners just don’t get it is accusing me of telling everyone about my politics?

          • Chang Liu

            LOL you never read my earlier posts have you. By your method of calculation over 90% also don’t want outright independence at present date. This is retarded.

          • Zhegezhege

            I read them all and I did read that you said you think separate countries is good for Chinese culture and I agree with that, because the only culture allowed to grow and develop on the mainland is CCP culture.

            Actually, calling you a sensitive, pro-PRC aiguo was actually quite measured. You’re the guy who misrepresented what I said, then called it, and by extension me, retarded. And you are a sensitive, pro-PRC aiguo by the way.

            I think that you need to read my posts again. Originally, I was merely pointing out that you were reading the statistics in an overly rosy way, then showed a more realistic interpretation, which got you all defensive.

            The “brainwashed by Western media” is another helpful way for you to deal with that cognitive dissonance that I mentioned above. If what I read hurts your head because it contradicts what you believe despite lack of logical flaws, you can just say I am brainwashed and then you can stop thinking about it. That’s totalitarian brainwashing 101: teach people when they should stop listening.

          • Chang Liu

            You must realise that wanting unification and wanting unification in principle and wanting with PRC are not the same position? I want eventual unification but not with PRC does that make me pro-PRC? You ARE retarded to think so.

          • Zhegezhege

            Well, it’s nice of you to once again twist something I’ve written in to a contentious point, disagree with that and ignore the rest. But then in everything you’ve written there is zero evidence that you were ever looking for common ground with anyone.

            Obviously wanting to unify with the PRC (dumb) and wanting to unify with post-PRC China (which we can’t predict and is another enormous topic) are not the same thing. But I never said it was, did I?

            I read a few more of your comments below and you are saying some weird stuff. Dad left PRC because of Tiananmen? Surely you should be saying “great job Ang Lee, if you’d said ‘thank you China’, those gangsters in Beijing would be publically giving themselves credit for your movie by now”! Or, at least “ehh, congrats Ang Lee. Unfortunately, there are now a lot of dummies reading too much in to what you say and do, as is the fate of any Chinese person that gets famous in China”

          • Chang Liu

            Hold on, lets backtrack, you called me a pro-PRC aiguo based on me expressing a wish to eventually unify did you not? I pointed out actually it is entirely possible to want that and not be pro-PRC. In fact I am explicit in saying if China remain undemocratic I’d prefer Taiwan to be independent. How did I twist what you have written?

            You calling me names perfectly illustrates the kind Western media fed unthinking when it comes the the China Taiwan equation. If I support eventual unification, I must be a pro-PRC aiguo, sorry NO.

            Right now KMT heavyweight Lien Chan is visiting China exploring “the one-China framework, cross-strait peace, mutual interest and integration, and revitalization of the Zhonghua Minzu (Chinese ethnicity)”, his words.
            http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/CHIN-01-040313.html

            FYI my father not only left China because of Tiananmen, he was imprisoned and tortured during his incarceration. He (history scholar) was later invited to Taiwan by New-Party way before the recent cross-straight thawing of relations. Even then he met lots of people in Taiwan who expressed a strong desire for unification, they just think it is not the right time.

            If you have read my post regarding Ang Lee, then you’d realise that I don’t LIKE this latest movie and Hollywood is lame to reward him on what I consider his WORST work. I love all his early stuff, he should have got the award for those, Kapish?

          • Zhegezhege

            Ah, I was worried I’d have to write a reply to this.

            Dude, you used the word retarded before I called you an aiguo so by your own logic, it is you that is brainwashed the Western media. And that is a silly concept by the way, because the Western media – while pressured by various corporate interests, often intimidated by lawsuits as well as too focused on profits – is better than anything else out there by a long way as it isn’t openly directed by a central authority. It allows a greater degree of dissent than anywhere else (the Daily Mirror in the UK was openly against the Iraq war before it started although admittedly Piers Morgan is an arse) and it allows dissenting columnists like George Monbiot and alternative media like Private Eye and nsfwcorp which, admittedly, have to tread very carefully. Even Assange gets to be heard, and sure his treatment shows the limits of Western freedom, but it’s a hell of a lot better than everyone else, isn’t it? It’s the best imperfect system we have, so it’s dumb to crap all over it, even if there are lots of zombies out there eating out of Fox News’s hands.

            Your combative nationalist opinions came across as pro-PRC and you have extensively attempted to contradict that point but seriously: uniting China and Taiwan? If you are genuinely not a PRC troll (as you definitely looked like due to volume of posts, arrogant humourless contradictions and Sinocentricism) but just a Chinese nationalist from Taiwan that thinks a unified China is a nice idea, then here’s some bad news: your goal is unrealistic and childish. Taiwan has way too much to lose in terms of material wealth and security by handing over sovereignty to Beijing and being overwhelmed by huge numbers of poor people that generally don’t view them positively. HK has done well but remember that they never had sovereignty to give up and were presented as victims, not traitors, on the mainland and Beijing has to be nice to them to stop the Taiwan Chinese rejecting the concept of unification altogether.

            HK and Taiwan are playing the mainland and sucking up while the mainland showers them with money. It will probably be a different story once the PRC hits a major economic crisis.

            And FYI, I’ve been following Asia Times Online from when I was 19, (back when I thought Escobar wasn’t a lunatic), those Brendan P O’Reilly articles on that take a very rosy view of the PRC like Peter Lee has usually been doing more recently (did you read that piece where he basically claimed that the PRC could decide the 2012 election? Maybe he has been getting a bit of extra access, and a bit more sympathetic to the Party with it?). Both of those guys are playing to the “Westerners generally don’t get China, but I do” gallery although I must confess I keep up to date with them. Oh, and I’m also friends with someone who writes for them. Not that I expect you to believe it, but then hey I am skeptical about much of what you write, too.

            And by the way, although your English is excellent, it’s spelled ‘capiche’.

          • Chang Liu

            I think you will find many overseas Chinese consider themselves patriotic and welcome the idea of an Chineses revival which includes territorial integrity, that does NOT mean they are pro-PRC (again absolutely no contradiction there what so ever!). The fact you find it difficult to believe just goes to show the extent of limited exposure to the range of opinion that exists. You don’t need to lecture me about the pro and cons of Western media for you to acknowledge its short comings on particular issues. For me the synchronic nature of most new media presents shallow short-termist views adhering to broad ideological narratives making them overlook large swathes of actual opinion and unable to address complex historical evolutions, that is the problem I am trying to address.

            I am really glad you (apologies for the harsh language, but the amount of ignorance exhibited in some posts here really gets on my nerves) are more discerning than your average chinaSMACK reader which I was addressing. However, for you to tell me unification is childish removes any ounce of impartiality from your position. How can you call the desire for a nation to eventually unify a childish wish? You acknowledge Taiwan is a better guardian of Chinese culture which supposes you know a something about Chinese culture and history then you would probably not deny the fact that the will for a united China is one of the strongest cultural and historical characteristics of China and Chineses culture. As heirs to that tradition, I think you will find the current Taiwanese administration disagree with you profoundly on that point, which by extension makes your position untenable.

            You appear to again and again fail to acknowledge despite my repeated assertions that I don’t want Taiwan to unify under the current circumstance (which is inline with majority opinion in Taiwan and my Taiwanese friend) i.e. CCP controlled non-democratic China. For this part I agree with you too much would be lost for Taiwan! However that is NOT a contradiction to wanting EVENTUAL unification if the mainland is able to reform its political institutions. I hope I am making myself clear! I hope you can see the fine-line between patriotism and blind nationalism.

            p.s. I agree with you on O’Reilly and Peter Lee’s articles however they offer (particularly Peter) interesting sources of first hand information which I am sure you are able to form your own opinion on. You’d have to agree it is miles ahead of any editorial piece from say the Guardian which are no better than ill-informed opinion pieces that wallow in self-evident truisms.

          • Zhegezhege

            Yeah, I’ve enjoyed this. And apologies about harsh language too… often people are too heavy on the ranting, personal attacks, harsh rhetoric and so on on this site and a bit light on acknowledging that on charged issues sometimes we all assume a bit too much about what the other guy thinks.

            And while I’m acknowledging, OK, I am hereby unambiguously acknowledging that you don’t want Taiwan to unify with CCP controlled non-democratic China but have not given up on the idea of an eventual re-unification. 分久必合, right?

            I agree that the Guardian do let themselves down on their China coverage. Not so long ago, they had a China correspondent move away from China and he wrote a long article talking about what he’d seen and so on. He had definitely seen some interesting stuff and it wasn’t a terrible summary but it included an admission that he had never learned the language. Embarassing. Whatever you think about the PRC, and the CCP, they are big and important enough now to merit a correspondent that at least speaks the official state language. And occasionally letting Martin Jacques try to sell books as the UK’s foremost “and I for one welcome our new overlords” commentator doesn’t help. But then, for all the West’s (diminishing) ignorance about China, remember that there are some very big and important events in China that the half-informed Westerner has heard plenty about that many hundreds of millions of Chinese are totally ignorant of, and many of the Chinese that are not ignorant of such things can not dispassionately discuss them (or discuss them at all), which takes away from their own understanding… so there are two sides to that ignorance argument.

            And while we’re on the subject, let’s also remember that the Guardian can be quite excellent, too. Without them, Tommy Two Dinners would never have been able to inflict such a glorious, grievous blow to that vampire Murdoch and his corrosive empire.

            However, it does seem that in the mainstream Western media, at the moment, only the New York Times writes with consistent intelligence about China. That doesn’t mean they’re brainwashing, it just means that most Western people don’t care enough for the papers to need to do more homework. Maybe that will change. But for now then you have Danwei, Charlie Custer, Chinasmack, Shanghaiist, Asia Times and all the other English language China sites that do get it, for the Western China-watchers that don’t read Chinese (and the Western China-watchers that do read Chinese but express themselves much more fluently in English).

            You may disagree with some of that and we definitely do not agree on what to think about patriotism. But if it’s all the same to you, let’s leave it there. I don’t know what your situation is and am not assuming anything at all, but I have a full time job and realise that this is why we should try to keep our comments short and funny. That Mr Wiener guy has the right idea…

          • Chang Liu

            It appears we have more in common than our earlier ramblings led us to believe. You are right this particular medium and subject matter lends itself to assumptions. No harm done.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Indeed.

          • JR

            Your problem is that you think everything is about China. So, the Taiwanese voted in a pro unification government twice, your point? Although the mainland media play up the “pro unification” part, that’s not the reason why Taiwanese voted for them. There are other reasons, such as, I don’t know, EVERYTHING ELSE. It’s like saying Obama doesn’t smoke, and so Americans are anti-tobacco because they voted for him. Take off those communist lenses of yours and see what the world *really* looks like.

          • Chang Liu

            That analogy hahahahaaha.

          • A guy

            Either way his point was sound that based on the numbers more want indefinite separation from the PRC be that as an independent state or in some grey area 51% . Another group wants to wait till the CCP stops being in power 8.1%, and then about 1.5% would be willing to unify as is. if you take the make a decision later people 32.4% it is telling me that they would rather not say because they don’t want to mess with their own stability and prosperity, and the only reason that would be the case is because the mainland is threatening war and or financial repercussions if they don’t have the feeling that unification is possible without force. If the threat was gone Taiwan would say deuces that moment. You can try and skew that however you would like, but those are the numbers, but your politics are clear. You may not admit it to yourself but your a Ccp sympathizer.

          • Chang Liu

            I am not sure you are right. The are a lot of possible reason the 32.4%. My father left China because of Tiananmen Square, how dare you accuse me of a CCP sympathiser!

          • Chang Liu

            Personally I wish Taiwan’s government can come over and kick out the CCP and bring democracy to China. You have to be retarted or blind to not see that the want for a nation to unify goes beyond the political divid, ask a Korean. But I like any sane Korean don’t want unification unless the political system changes. DUH!!!!! That makes me a commie bastard does it? Does the Cold War still go on in your little head?

          • A guy

            Ahh now that my accusation has rooted out your real politics, I will say this. By the numbers your compatriots don’t agree and they don’t see themselves as China maybe Chinese many of them but they don’t see Taiwan as part of China. They see it as part of Chinese history. Wait???!!!! What??!!!!! the cold war ended???!!! We finally did it!!!!!!!? Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Chang Liu

            My REAL politics? You can’t entertain my politics because it doesn’t fit your 1 camp or the other camp dichotomy? There are lots of of people who don’t belong to either camp dumbo.

    • Neutron

      Actually if you notice there are lots of countries who wouldn’t set up an embassy in Taiwan.

      In which according to the “Resolution 2758″ which was passed by the UN General Assembly, “decides to restore all its rights to the People’s Republic of China and to recognize the representatives of its Government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations related to it.”

      And as of my knowledge regarding the One China Policy, even the United States does not recognize Taiwan as a country.

      So yes all the facts that you stated above have some truth to it, but it still not enough to declare a Taiwan a country without the support from other countries and the UN.

      Good luck

      • Kai

        Taiwan is generally treated as its own country in practice, if not in lip-service. It is de facto independent, if not necessarily de jure.

        Everything else is just arguing semantics.

  • Guest

    IN-N-OUT!!!!!!!

    • donscarletti

      No time for the old in-out, love, I’ve just come to read the meter.

  • TheDon

    The movie is great, amazing picture in 2d, watching on my 3d tv was just beyond something words can express. The tiger looks so damm real. Congrats for the achievement

  • Hongwu Emperor

    In fact he has to thank specially those who supported and helped him on the production of that good movie, be it from china,taiwan or from the outer space…

    And he thanked Taiwan because that’s where he came from, that’s where he was born, etc… He would only have to thank ‘China’ (as a nation) if we were on the Qing, for example, where taiwan was part of the Great Qing Empire.

  • Chang Liu

    Ang Lee has directed many great films and this isn’t one of them. Trust the Oscars to award best director to one of his worst films

    1. Hamfisted spirituality is shamefully shallow. (books fault as much as the film)

    2. The acting is unbelievably doughy and uninspiring.

    3. Over reliance on CGI works well in some scenes but not others.

    4. The Script is so conceited and trite it makes me cringe.

    On the plus side, the CGI tiger was amazing. He deserve an award.

    • Washington Bullets

      At least you’re commenting on the film from a movie viewer’s standpoint and not going off about how he never mentioned the Mainland. I enjoyed the film as a viewing experience, but yes the plot is trite and relies a lot on visual effects. I also think the award should have gone to Richard Parker.

      • Chang Liu

        Richard Parker was so amazing I didn’t realise he was CGI until someone told me later. It is the ONLY time I’ve mistaken a CGI for the real deal! Thats got to count towards something!

        Don’t get me wrong I like Ang Lee and followed his career from early effort like Pushing Hands to later epic Lust, Caution. But The Life of Pi is bewilderingly shit.

    • ogami_ito

      Agreed. Father Knows Best Trilogy is honest, beautiful… just great. Croaching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was commercial, yet very artful, moving, and exciting. Ice Storm not my cup of tea, but definitely a fine movie. Hulk was meh. Broke Back Mountain also a good movie, but 不是我的菜。  Better than Crash – a pretentious piece of shit movie – which beat Broke Back Mountain that year. Lust, Caution I still have to see. .

      • Chang Liu

        Glad to see an Ang Lee fan here! I whole heartedly agree with your assessment. Some of his earliest work such as Pushing Hands (hard to find) and the Wedding Banquet from the trilogy lays out his humanistic and observational nuance and sensitivities which characterises much of his later films. I really enjoyed Lust, Caution. Hope you like it too.

      • Chang Liu

        Crash won that year as in not the David Cronenberg but the Amores Perros wannabe? Again Oscars is a fucking joke.

        • ogami_ito

          Not the crazy movie about people get sexual kicks out of being in automobile accidents written by that guy who was a prisoner in Shanghai and wrote Empire of the Sun (forgot name). The pretentious movie about LA people coming to terms with their inherent racsim.

          • Chang Liu

            GJ Ballard you mean! Yes I love him. Did it have like 3 separate stories coming together kinda structure?

  • don mario

    LOL. incredible comments. i had a good laugh reading them.

    china is like a nation full of people with learning difficulty’s

    if they were a less retarded nation they would be asking themself questions like, why cant someone from the mainland win an oscar? why is it that only directors from taiwan or hong kong are capable of making good films? while the mainland ones suck mad balls. (generalisation, but still.)

    • YourSupremeCommander

      First of all, there are retarded people in every country, so to make an general across the board assumption that China is full of retarded people based on a few retarded posts on the internet, is well, retarded.

      Second of all, mainland Chinese movies (quite a few of them) are 1000% times better than most movies made in HK or Taiwan. In any case most HK and Taiwan movies are pretty much all made in mainland China anyways, so what’s your point?

      Lastly, mainland Chinese movies don’t appear in the Oscars simply because they lack distribution, exposure, and international awareness. Bad marketing is to blame here, not the movies themselves.

      I hope I have made you smarter by now.

      • don mario

        you be trollin or what?

        based on a few posts on the internet? try again, actually based on nearly all of them believing in BS propaganda, which makes them look like retards compared to the rest of the world. its not only a few retards either, the majority of chinese people i have met believe the bs.

        mainland movies are 1000% times better than hk and taiwan movies? lol, now i really know u are trolling. if they had distribution they would be quite simply, treated as a joke. i can tell you that from experience. i have worked on a mainland movie that did have distribution. its score on imdb is like a 3 i think. and not undeserved.

        • Chang Liu

          Actually mainland China has a venerable history of producing award winning films and directors, a lot more than HK and Taiwan combined. Check out Zhang Yimou, Chen Kaige, Jia Zhangke, they have all won major European awards. Oscars tend to be about popular commercial films made within the Studio system. It is a shameless system that pat itself on the back every year. Ang Lee works within the studio system. Oscars is one of the worst prizes for judging merit of a film.
          Please get informed before you spout ignorant nonsense, only make you look like a fool.

          • don mario

            how much more informed do i have to be than working for a fucking film production in china? which was a incredible joke i might add. i already said it was a generalisation- i HAVE seen good mainland chinese films and i am aware there have good filmakers. but i’m sorry, the standard’s cant match, and why could it? they dont have the same history and tradition. and they have moronic restrictions to work within. this is what mainlanders should be thinking about when they see ang lee tearing it up. but instead they just get butthurt becuase they do not understand why they didnt recieve any thanks.

          • Chang Liu

            Oh really? Which film production? Standards aren’t generally high I am sure, there are so much trash on Chinese TV it is unwatchable. But then again same goes for a lot of countries where the general standard is low. But China has exceptional directors and films, way way more than Taiwan (I am partial to works of Tsai Mingliang) or HK (Entertainment seems to be their prerogative), that much you can’t deny.

          • don mario

            “Standards aren’t generally high I am sure”

            exactly. i cant say the same when i look at the awesome collection of HK cinema gong fu movies on my computer.

          • Chang Liu

            Huh? Sry what? HK kong fu movies are a joke, there is a reason they are categorised as ‘cult classics’.

          • don mario

            again, you HAVE to be trolling here. jabroni.

          • Chang Liu

            Read up on what ‘CULT’ movies mean.

          • don mario

            so bruce lee, the most famous (not the mention coolest) chinese person of all time……..is a cult icon? hahahahah. stupid man.

          • Chang Liu

            Wow You think Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person of all time. Jesus wept, that is indicative of your pathetic level of education than any external verifiable truth. Talking to you makes my humanity waver.

          • don mario

            most people where i live would know him over mao, they know nothing of chinese history, so why not? thats just how it is. nothing to do with my education. if you want to be picky about it, i could say the most famous chinese star. popular icon. whatever, it doesnt matter, he is still the number one most well known, and the greatest. cult icon doesnt fit the bill. i know you are talking shit at this point anyway, because according to you martial arts films are cult. well most of what mainland produces is martial arts. so most of what they make is cult then, according to you, you just contradicted yourself.

          • Chang Liu

            The you should have said the most famous Chinese for YOU then. It is indicative of the level of ignorance of China where you live.

          • don mario

            china has very little to do with my country, apart from movies and take away. why should the average joe be interested or why should it be taught in our schools? and i stick to what i said in my last post. if you are talking chinese star, popular icon or actor known around the world (not within mainland) then i would say bruce lee takes the no. 1 spot.

          • Chang Liu

            I am sure you are proud of you narrow world-view and general ignorance.

          • don mario

            so you would disagree with me, that around the world, and not within china the average person thinks bruce lee is the most famous chinese star, pop icon and actor?

          • Chang Liu

            Yeah because when it comes questions about which is the most famous Chinese person it is a great idea to ask those who don’t know anything about China.

          • don mario

            that non answer basicly means you cant name anyone else. even within china the answer would still be a martial arts star, probably jackie chan, a “cult icon”, so it doesnt change matters.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            This goes the same to a lot of countries really. most ‘famous’ guys are either politicians or those of the entertainment industry [music,movies,etc].

            That’s how the average people ‘gets’ to know a country [what's hip and happening,trends,etc] nowadays. through their entertainment,movies,music,internet

          • don mario

            i agree.

          • BiggJ

            When you’re talking world famous chinese actors…Most people around the world will say “Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Lee……That’s all most people know.

          • BiggJ

            Actually, It is a good idea to ask someone who don’t know anything about china who the most famous person in china is. The people they name must be pretty famous around the world if someone who does not know a god damn thing about china or chinese people knows the person they mention.

          • BiggJ

            You sound like an American. Thinking the whole world should know everything about your culture and country. And call people stupid when the don’t.

          • Kai

            Actually, I’d say Bruce Lee could very likely be the most famous Chinese person around the world. He’s the product of mass-media, of the entertainment industry, which generally has more reach, penetration, and influence on the average person. Can you think of anyone else with as much international familiarity?

            In fact, modern stars like Jackie Chan and Jet Li can attribute their own success in part to Bruce Lee’s popularization of Chinese martial arts in entertainment.

            On the initial discussion, I think @disqus_ylFkMMXaEa:disqus you’re willfully saying obviously inflammatory things, so I wouldn’t accuse others of trolling for reacting to it. I mean, you accused China of being “a nation full of people with learning difficulty’s“. No matter what frustrations you’ve had with the opinions of certain Chinese people around you, you’re still sounding like a jerk there. And if you took a step back, I think you’d have to admit it.

            And the questions you said mainland Chinese should ask, they do. It was a major theme with reporting about movies like Kung Fu Panda or how China doesn’t win Nobel Prizes. It’s one thing to feel certain obnoxious Chinese people don’t introspect, it’s another to make obviously inflammatory generalizations.

          • Chang Liu

            “most famous (not the mention coolest) chinese person of all time” was the original statement. Unless specified it does not mean the most famous Chinese person FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD unless specified. Kapish?

          • Kai

            Well, if you want to be that way, I didn’t say he’s the most famous Chinese person “for the rest of the world” either. I said Bruce Lee “could very likely be the most famous Chinese person around the world” before asking you: “Can you think of anyone else with as much international familiarity?”

            I don’t think I said anything wrong, and I think I understood don mario ‘s context.

          • Chang Liu

            When you make a general statement such as who is the greatest Briton whilst speaking TO a British person do you expect it to be automatically about what the rest of the world thinks? Unbelievable.

          • Kai

            Uh, I see better what angle you’re coming from here though I think of all the things @disqus_ylFkMMXaEa:disqus had to say, that was in my opinion hardly the most deserving of your outrage and disbelief.

            But for the sake of continuing the conversation, I’m genuinely curious as to who you think is the most “famous” Chinese person “of all time” (to stick with what don mario was arguing)..

          • Chang Liu

            Needless to say I don’t think the most famous person from the US is Ronald McDonald, because he is the most visible or that I like Chicken McNugets (which I don’t). That would be deeply offensive. Same rule applies to Bruce Lee, being a popular entertainer in the US, he’s obviously more visible. Does that = fame? I don’t ascribe to the cult of celebrity where fame = exposure for any reason. Fame for me is deserved through having done worthwhile things.

          • Kai

            I don’t think I’d necessarily find it offensive if someone told me the most famous American they can think of is Ronald McDonald. It would sort of depend on context and tone. If it was with a sneer, sure, I might be a little offended, but more likely just think the guy is being disingenuous and combative, but if it was with a laugh or with earnest, I’d think he’s being light-hearted and possibly sincere in the moment.

            Thing is, I don’t think don mario is trying to offend anyone by saying Bruce Lee, nor do I think the answer of Bruce Lee is really offensive at all. Bruce Lee is a cultural icon. Ronald McDonald is as well, though he’s a fictitious commercial brand symbol unlike Bruce Lee, who was a real person with a history and life story, personal accomplishments, and recognized skills and talents. He also wasn’t and isn’t just popular in the US but around the world, including China. You mention 李小龙 in China and you’ll get lots of people recognizing the name. That IS fame, by definition.

            All don mario said was that Bruce Lee was the most famous for him, by his criteria. For all we know, he feels Bruce Lee’s fame is deserved for having done worthwhile things as well. Perhaps the popularization of martial arts and ethnic Chinese actors in Hollywood is considered worthwhile. There are many reasons fans of Bruce Lee and even non-fans attribute to why Bruce Lee is a famous Chinese person. Maybe you don’t think he has done worthwhile things, that’s fine, but I don’t think you can reject the use of “fame” here. You’d be arbitrarily changing an accepted definition of a word.

            Finally, come on, dude, even you have to admit you’re avoiding the question. You are however sort of replying by vaguely eliminating what you think does not qualify as fame so that’s getting somewhere, but I don’t get why you’re behaving this way. It’s unreasonable. You’re not going to persuasively or convincingly discredit don mario’s choice of Bruce Lee as the most famous Chinese guy, much less through bad semantic arguments, but you could offer a worthwhile contender. Who is the most famous Chinese person to you, according to your criteria of having done worthwhile things?

          • Chang Liu

            I think he is uneducated and uninformed.

          • Kai

            You’re still dodging the question. What would an educated and informed person say is the most famous Chinese person then?

          • Dr Sun

            me obviously

          • Kai

            Heh, unfortunately I’d wager Mao is even more famous than you.

          • Chang Liu

            Why I am behaving this way? Celebrity culture/cult of personality (Bruce Lee) = bad news, informed discussion = good news. I am sure I am not the only one who hold such views. The most Famous Chinese person in History for China is probably Guan Yu, everyone knows him and he had be deified. For me it would be Sun Zhongshan.

          • Kai

            See, that wasn’t so hard, was it? Now, like in my response to Dr Sun, I say I wager Mao is more famous than Sun, including in modern China.

          • Chang Liu

            Ofcourse Mao is, you asked who mine was?

          • Kai

            “Famous” is not quite as wholly subjective as “favorite”? If you say Mao is “of course” more famous than Sun, then wouldn’t you have to say Mao is the most famous Chinese person instead of Sun, even for you?

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Politically it would be Mao, as even strangers with less knowledge about China often remind of his picture, or that he was a chinese leader at least. Bruce Lee is quite common, both in the West as in China

            Amongst the Chinese people it is most certainly Guan Yu. but Kongzi/Laozi also famous.

          • Kai

            Amongst the Chinese people, you think so? I get the feeling Mao is more recognizable by the uneducated poor than Guan Yu, Kongzi, Laozi, and they make up a huge part of the population.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Nowadays we can say yes. but education has little sway on this. you don’t need to be a smartass to worship Guan Yu, faith is what decides this one.

            On the other side, we can definetly state that Mao’s cult had reached a near-godly status so…

          • Kai

            I’m not sure what you mean by “faith is what decides this one” so for the moment, I’m still gonna disagree about Guan Yu over Mao. In China, you generally need a certain amount of education or exposure to media to possibly hear of Guan Yu but all you need to know about Mao is to come into contact with money.

            About Mao’s cult, I’d say it was closer to near-godly in the past than today. There’s a lot less blind fanaticism and a lot more frank discussion about him with the general trend being increasingly more frank discussion. Not out of the woods but there’s been undeniable progress.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Education? you dont need to go to any stupid university to learn how to properly worship the Great Guan Yu… but on the other side, education presses even more young people into Mao-worship, ranging from ‘near-god’ to dear leader, so…

          • Kai

            Eh, I still disagree. We can agree to disagree. While completely unscientific, I’ve casually brought this up to other people (“btw, who do you think is more famous, Guan Yu or Mao”) and not once have I gotten Guan Yu over Mao. If you want, you can try doing the same thing and see if the results reinforce your position or mine. Otherwise, I think we’ve reached a natural end to this discussion.

          • Chang Liu

            But I didn’t grow up in China, why would he be the most famous for me? I’d image mao being in the text book and bank notes and whatnot he’d be most famous for a Mainlander. What kind of game are you playing?

          • Kai

            Why does where you grow up matter at all here? If the question is “who is the most famous Chinese person to you”, and you first say Sun Yat-sen, but then agree with someone else that Mao is “of course” more famous, then wouldn’t the most famous Chinese person “to you” necessarily have to be Mao?

            I didn’t say Mao is more famous than Sun “in China”, I said “including in China”. The game I am playing is having a simple conversation. You seem to be playing the game where you conveniently fail to follow the conversation.

          • Chang Liu

            Simple I didn’t have mainland ‘Mao is great’ education rammed down my throat thus able to make my own more informed judgement but had I been brought up in the mainland it would probably be Mao, why is that so hard to understand?

          • Kai

            It’s hard to understand because it’s not a relevant response to the previous discussion.

            Simple logic dictates that if you agree with someone else that Person B is more famous than Person A, whom you initially offered as the most famous person to you, then now Person B is the most famous person to you. Your background has nothing to do with this.

            If you had NOT said you agreed with me that Mao is “of course” more famous than Sun, then you could still argue why your background influences who you think is the most famous Chinese person.

            But even then, the very subject of “most famous” requires you to divorce your judgment from your own subjective background and consider the more objective environment of who other people consider the most famous. Fame, by definition as a criteria, and in juxtaposition to something subjective like “favorite”, requires consideration of others.

          • Chang Liu

            “If you had NOT said you agreed with me that Mao is “of course” more famous than Sun, then you could still argue why your background influences who you think is the most famous Chinese person.” Again you continue to quote out of context. I said that for a mainlander. I was under the impress you thought I was a mainlander. If we take people utterances out of context we can make them appear to mean what ever we want them to mean.

          • Kai

            No, I haven’t. The original question by don mario never had the context of “for a mainlander”. Neither did my own question. Neither was Dr. Sun’s response. Neither was my suggestion of Mao. You’re retroactively trying to add context that didn’t exist.

            I never thought you were a mainlander either. Where did you get that idea? Please cite anything I’ve said in the discussion about this Bruce Lee thing to suggest you are a mainlander. I never gave a crap what you were. All I cared about was the logic in any position being advanced here and honesty in rhetoric.

          • Dr Sun

            Still saying it’s me……

          • Kai

            Hah, that’s fine, and I wish it were you, but what’s your argument for you over Mao?

          • Chang Liu

            In that case ignore that bit.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Guan Yu is completely awesome! =)
            finally we’re talking three kingdoms here!

          • Chang Liu

            Sry me dodging the question? You just hijacked the thread and made it about me, sorry if I don’t play along.

          • Kai

            You can’t “hijack” the thread and make it about don mario but whine about it when I “hijack” the thread and make it about you. You decided to respond to don mario criticizing his level of education and I decided to respond to you by criticizing you dodging a what is an innoucuous question. He said Bruce Lee was the most famous Chinese person to him. You disagreed and instead of discussing who may be more deserving of such a title, you decided to just attack the guy for having an opinion. It’s one thing to shame the guy for saying the inflammatory things he did, but to attack him for simply saying he thinks Bruce Lee is the most famous? Come on.

            Let’s also review my initial involvement in this public discussion: I lent support for his opinion that Bruce Lee may be the most famous Chinese person around the world and then criticized him for being intentionally inflammatory. Your response to me was to mischaracterize the discussion and my response with a nice dose of flippancy.

          • BiggJ

            What’s Bruce Lee’s favorite drink???

            WAAATTTAAAAAA!!!

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            how does Bruce Lee sneeze????

            HHHAAAACHOOOOWWWWW * while swinging a few nunchuck*

            and he beat Chuck Norris in Italy. I knew hes the one for the job. My faith in Chinese power is restored after that movie.

          • Chang Liu

            He said Bruce Lee in response to something else, read the whole thing.

          • Kai

            I did. You argued that there were quite a few mainland movies that were better than most of the stuff produced by HK and Taiwan (I wholeheartedly agree) but acknowledged that mainland “standards aren’t generally high”. don mario agreed but suggested he couldn’t say the same thing of all the HK kung fu movies on his computer. To which, you replied HK kung fu movies are a joke and that’s why they’re called cult classics. don mario responded by saying you must be trolling and called you “jabroni”. You replied telling him to look up what “cult movies” mean. don mario then says you’re suggesting that Bruce Lee, whom he considers the most famous Chinese person of all time is a cult icon, and calls you a stupid man.

            Here, you lament him thinking Bruce Lee is the most famous and says he has a pathetic level of education. Jesus apparently wept as well.

            This is where I came in and said “Bruce Lee could very likely be the most famous Chinese person around the world” and explained why I think so. I also criticized don mario for saying a lot of other inflammatory things earlier.

            You reacted poorly to this and said “most famous Chinese person of all time” does not mean “most famous Chinese person for the rest of the world.”

            I replied that I didn’t say “most famous Chinese person ‘for the rest of the world’” either.

            You then lost the plot or otherwise stopped making sense. But, concurrently, you were asked who you think is the most famous Chinese person by multiple people, which you dodged repeatedly until Dr. Sun jumped in and joked that he is. And no one really knows why you were dodging that question but apparently you thought it was some ploy to trap you that you weren’t willing to play along with.

            I’m certain my read of how this discussion unfolded is accurate. I honestly never thought you’d react so angrily and with such hostility to me simply supporting the notion that Bruce Lee could very well be the most famous Chinese person around the world.

          • Chang Liu

            I am undignified by don mario talking to me who clearly is Chinese about who is the most famous Chinese person (not around the world, it wasn’t specified.) And you jumping in adding that he is around the world which wasn’t part of the equation, and you conveniently missed that bit in your summing up. How nice.

          • Kai

            Undignified? So a non-Chinese person ought not discuss who is the most famous Chinese person lest they offend a Chinese person? Damn, dude, that’s pretty unreasonable.

            I didn’t miss anything in my summing up. You’re trying to create drama where there isn’t any. don mario is not Chinese and he said what he felt was the most famous Chinese person. The context here is more likely “famous ‘around the world’” than anything else SINCE don mario is not Chinese. If you want to nitpick, he said “of all time”, which I might quibble with but not really. Either way, you tried to reject his opinion on the basis that him having an opinion was offensive to you as a Chinese person. Say what?

            Just because he didn’t say “around the world” doesn’t actually justify your rejection of his opinion on the basis of being personally offended by him sharing his opinion of who is the most famous Chinese person “of all time” to you, as Chinese person. Furthermore, me supporting his opinion of Bruce Lee with the qualifier “around the world” is itself a sound position. Sure, he didn’t say it, but I did. What was your justification for being so hostile to my argument?

            People “jump into” public discussions. Get used to it. You didn’t hear me whining about you jumping into the conversation Rusty and I was having, did I? Stop feigning insult. The situation remains as I described it. How could you have possibly expected don mario to be operating in such a arbitrarily narrow and limited context as the one you’re trying to retroactively shoe-horn the entire discussion into in order to justify your behavior? The guy said most famous Chinese guy of all time, I argued he very likely could be around the world, and you come back arguing that you were “undignified” by him talking about famous Chinese people to you because you’re a Chinese person?

            Are you serious?

          • Chang Liu

            Again context please. He didn’t not say he felt. He said the most famous IS. Had he said that I’d been fine. Are you from HK you appear to be getting awfully upset over nothing. True people jump in and quite often gets ignored.

          • Kai

            The act of commenting that Bruce Lee is the most famous is the expression of one’s feelings/opinion. That’s what the “felt” refers to. His statement cannot exist separately from his subjective voicing of it. You’re pretending not to understand this when you clearly do, because you couldn’t attack his person and his education if you did not fundamentally understand it was him saying what he feels.

            How do you, the person who got awfully upset and personally offended and “undignified” over someone’s opinion that Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person, accuse anyone else of getting awfully upset over nothing? If I’m upset, I’m upset with your dishonesty in discussion.

          • Chang Liu

            Sure that might be the case if it where a conversation starter. Undignified because Bruce Lee is a screeching clown for me.

          • Kai

            First sentence: Not really. Second sentence: Um, okay.

          • Chang Liu

            Finally getting somewhere. How about really dislike the guy and what he represents for starters?

          • Kai

            We already got here long ago. I already know you really dislike the guy and what he represents. It still doesn’t persuade me or don mario to say he isn’t the most famous Chinese person. It just means you don’t like him. But you were arguing that he wasn’t the most famous Chinese person and anyone who thought so had a “pathetic” level of education.

          • Chang Liu

            My argument with don was Bruce was a Cult Icon. (proven by his Cult-Icon ranking on IMDB), and by definition of Cult icon he can’t be mainstream-famous. You again conveniently mis-represented the conversation.

          • BiggJ

            I can’t believe you guys are still talking about Bruce Lee. lol

          • Chang Liu

            I can’t believe people actually read all that! :)

          • Kai

            I’m going to strangle you. You can’t even follow your own conversations. Please review the discussion.

            The context of our discussion is your indignation that don mario thinks Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person. In fact, it was he who asked if you were saying he’s a “cult icon” thinking that’s what you meant by generalizing HK kung fu flicks as “cult movies”.

            How can I possibly misrepresent the conversation between us when my disagreement with you is about your indignation that someone thinks Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person? Your whole other conversation about cult movies isn’t relevant. I have a vague idea that you’re still having a discussion with don mario about that but it’s separate from what I’ve been talking about. Come on, dude, get it straight.

            BTW, I think you’ve either misunderstood or wildly distorted the meaning of “cult icon”. You do understand it’s short for “cultural icon” right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_icon You’re conflating it with the common understanding of “cult movies” or “cult classics” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_classic Did you notice in that page that mainstream fame is not excluded? Did you notice that the IMDB list http://www.imdb.com/list/8fOdHiOT7H0/ says:

            The boldest, weirdest, sexiest stars of all time.

            and…

            Bruce Lee remains the greatest icon of martial arts cinema, and a key figure of modern popular culture. Had it not been for the amazing Bruce Lee and his incredible movies in the early 1970s, it’s arguable whether or not the martial arts film genre would have ever penetrated and influenced mainstream western cinema & audiences the way it has over the past four decades…

            All of that is associated with mainstream-famous. The definition of a cult icon is not what you either think it is or what you’re trying to make it out to be. It remains that Bruce Lee is very likely and legitimately the most famous Chinese person and an opinion of such is hardly indicative of a “pathetic” level of education, as you so accused of don mario.

          • Chang Liu

            cult does not mean cultural icon LOL. Cult means a small group of people with fanatical devotion to something.

          • Kai

            I didn’t say “cult” means “cultural icon”. I said, “cult icon” is short for “cultural icon”. I’m going to redirect you to my previous comment until you’re able to refute every point in it, especially your faulty reliance on IMDB that itself contradicts how you want to interpret “cult icon”.

          • Chang Liu

            Sorry Cult icon does not mean culture icon, try again.

          • Kai

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_icon

            Read both entries or go ahead and Google up more sources if you want. Bruce Lee is a “cult icon” in BOTH senses and usages. He commands a group of hardcore fans who worship him and love his campy movies, while his fame transcends to the mainstream making him a cultural icon. Again, even the evidence you’ve offered contradicts your argument and supports what I’m saying.

          • Chang Liu

            I never denied that he was a cultural icon too… Merely Cult and Cultural are not interchangeable as you have suggested and I can’t believe you won’t admit it. Was BL your childhood hero or something?

          • Kai

            You are denying “Cult icon may refer to: Cultural icon”.

            My argument with don was Bruce was a Cult Icon. (proven by his Cult-Icon ranking on IMDB), and by definition of Cult icon he can’t be mainstream-famous.

            Bruce Lee is a “cult icon” in both the “cultural icon” and “cult following” definitions. In other words, Bruce Lee is mainstream famous AND has a cult following. The context for his cult following is different from his context as a mainstream cultural icon. This is one of those situations where having a cult following does not preclude mainstream fame. This is why I told you to read BOTH entries. The cult-icon ranking on IMDB you yourself supplied contradicts your argument by explicitly describing Bruce Lee as “a key figure in modern popular culture”.

            Your argument against don: “Bruce Lee cannot be the most famous Chinese person because Bruce Lee is a cult icon. Here’s an IMDB list that says Bruce Lee is a cult icon. My definition of cult icon is someone who cannot be mainstream-famous.”

            My rebuttal: “Your definition of cult icon is faulty, and a cult icon like Bruce Lee can also be mainstream famous. Your IMBD list also says he is a ‘star’ and ‘key figure in modern popular culture’, both which suggests that Bruce Lee is in fact mainstream famous. Therefore, your argument against don is faulty.”

          • Chang Liu

            Cultural Icon can be Cult Icons both don’t have to be ,particularly Cult ones, mainstream famous.

          • Kai

            You’re working backwards. Bruce Lee is both mainstream famous and a cult icon.

          • Chang Liu

            Interesting, then he would be an exception to the rule then.

          • BiggJ

            Who is the most famous Chinese person?

          • Chang Liu

            Sure not necessarily offensive, as do all things are not necessarily offensive to someone some where. That is not the point, clearly I found it offensive. I didn’t know who Bruce Lee was until much later in life and found all his films cheaply produced trash, or possessed by ridiculous nationalistic sentiments. Such a third rate entertainer offends me.

          • Kai

            Yes, I get that you’re saying it’s offensive to you. That’s also why I said I don’t understand your behavior here and that it is unreasonable. The level of offense you’re claiming here is usually reserved for crimes against humanity much higher than someone having the opinion that a certain celebrity is the most famous example of a nationality or ethnicity. It’s not like you’re an idiot who isn’t already aware of how popular don mario’s opinion is. That leaves you being offended for the sake of being offended, which is, as I said, unreasonable.

            “I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU THINK THE COLOR BLUE IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL!!! OMFG! YOU OFFEND ME! SUCH A THIRD RATE COLOR!”

            I have a hard time believing you mentally struggle with understanding why Bruce Lee is considered the most famous Chinese person by many (note, I said “understand”, not “agree”. There is such a thing as knowing why a position is held without sharing that position). I believe you’re smart enough and have existed in general society long enough to understand Bruce Lee’s fame. Therefore, I’m forced to chalk the intensity of your feelings here as being a personality quirk. You’re deeply offended by don mario thinking Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person. We now know no reasoning can temper that feeling of personal offense. I’ve accepted that about you now. It’s unreasonable to me but I’m not going to get a better, more humanly understandable explanation out of you it seems.

          • Chang Liu

            It is the internet, taking offence at the most innocuous comment is an art buddy boy.

          • Kai

            It’s a hyperbole, meant to highlight the particular aspect of your position and arguments that I feel is unreasonable. You can hardly accuse me of removing contextual cues when between the two of us, I’m the one who has consistently framed the discussion in the actual context of the discussion and even spelled out how it unfolded while you’ve just stood there obstinately with your arms crossed. Come on, dude, don’t be like that.

            I’d be willing to bet that thinking Bruce Lee is deserving of his fame is MORE common EVEN where you grew up in the UK. So I have to chalk your indignation here to being a personality quirk because you seem to be rejecting a reasonable acknowledgement of reality. Note that I’m not objecting to anyone personally thinking Bruce Lee is undeserving, I’m only objecting to the refusal to acknowledge that a whole lot of other people DO think Bruce Lee is deserving. It just strikes me as incredibly odd for anyone to be as indignant as you are claiming to be over something that is so mundane. The joke about the color blue is meant to illustrate that. You’re not stupid enough to NOT understand this, man.

          • Chang Liu

            Actually no. Growing up in the UK isn’t like China people don’t share the same cultural sphere, in fact the school I went to football was banned and TV was frowned upon. I, and many of my friends didn’t watch TV and think Bruce Lee is shit. But lets not open that can of worms.

          • Kai

            Where am I saying growing up in the UK is like China? Nowhere. So why are you saying it isn’t like China? Where did I say people share the same cultural sphere? Nowhere. So why are you saying people don’t? How is your school banning football and frowning upon TV relevant to the discussion of whether or not more people in the UK believe Bruce Lee is deserving of his fame than those who believe he isn’t deserving? It isn’t. So why are you bringing it up?

            Just because you and many of your friend didn’t watch TV and think Bruce Lee is the shit doesn’t mean most of the UK didn’t watch TV and thus don’t think Bruce Lee is the shit. You have to recognize the limitations of your own anecdotes and personal experiences and be extra careful when extrapolating them onto a larger population. Would you find some white supremacist who surrounds himself with like-minded individuals and goes around saying his views represent the majority of the white population persuasive?

          • Chang Liu

            I thought you wanted to understand how I arrived at my views on BL?

          • Kai

            Where? Maybe you can quote me?

          • Chang Liu

            “but I’m not going to get a better, more humanly understandable explanation out of you it seems.” So that is a statement and leading on to more explanations?

          • Kai

            Read in context.

            I’m looking for a “better, more humanly understandable explanation” for “why you “mentally struggle with understanding why Bruce Lee is considered the most famous Chinese person by many” and are “deeply offended by don mario thinking Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person” when I believe “you are smart enough to understand Bruce Lee’s fame.”

            You personally not liking Bruce Lee is one thing, you rejecting that Bruce Lee is likely the most famous Chinese person and claiming personal offense that anyone would think so is another. Fame has a definition, and it isn’t “Chang Liu’s personal likes or dislikes”.

          • Chang Liu

            I don’t understand you. Cult Icon is just that, CULT. You might think he is most famous but he is considered cult which means not mainstream.

          • Kai

            See my previous reply on what “cult icon” means. I don’t know why you’re responding to an older part of the conversation with something that has already been gone over in a later part of the conversation. Cynically, that’s like trying to confuse the record.

          • Chang Liu

            WTF? Cult icon please for the love of god just find out what cult icon means.

          • Kai

            See other reply. You’re not even playing the semantic game correctly. If you’re going to rely on a semantic argument, you need to be absolutely certain you know what you’re talking about. In this case, you don’t.

          • Chang Liu

            Seriously ask native English speakers what it means.

          • Kai

            What makes you think I’m not a native English speaker?

          • Chang Liu

            Are you HK ABC? Is that why the butthurt over BL?

          • Kai

            Nope, neither from HK nor an ABC. I’m not butthurt over BL. I just think your argument against don mario is wrong.

          • Chang Liu

            BBC? Come on there are so many English speaking countries :). CBC?

          • Chang Liu

            Kai WTF is this? You are the one who said growing up in the UK should endear me more to BL’s popularity did you not! By attempt at getting you to understand UK is a highly stratified society with incredible range of opinion has been met with this!?

          • Kai

            I did NOT whatsoever. Quote me!

          • Chang Liu

            Don’t know why it posted twice.

          • Anon992

            Chang Liu, news bulletin for you… Bruce Lee is the most famous Chinese person in the world. Fact.

            Perhaps after that Confucius. Why? Who do you think it is.. Jay Zhou? You’ve gotta be Chinese, right?

          • Chang Liu

            Thats not the original argument. ‘for the world’ part was added later.

          • Chang Liu

            I think you will find 1.3 billion people disagree with you.

          • BiggJ

            Who do you think is the most famous chinese person?

          • BiggJ

            To Chinese people Moa is the most famous, they have to look at his face everytime they buy something.

          • El Puma R.

            It’s funny how they idolize some people in the Mainland and outside China these “idols” could go into the store and nobody would give a fuck about them.

            Me and my buddies made a Jap girl cry once when we told her the Pornstar Aoi Sora was way better actress than the mainstream Aoi Sora. And prettier too. japanese girl started to cry and we had to calm her down.

            As my countrymen from the farmlands would say “aah japanese chinese, they all look the same to me”

          • linette lee

            hahaha…and I bet Mía Maestro or jennifer anniston can walk into any Chinese countries and no chinese will even care except mistaken them as prostitute working in Asia countries.

          • El Puma R.

            Dunno really, in mainland cities a shitload of people spend all day in front of a screen. However I believe in the Chinese countryside they surely wouldn’t know.

          • Kate

            Bullshit. Both of those women are freakin gorgeous and chinese men would drool over both.

          • BiggJ

            Yeah people in China whenever they ask me where im from and when I say Canada, the first thing that comes out of their mouth is Norman Bethune. When I first got here I had no Idea who they were talking about. Never heard of the guy in my life. I had to google it to see who is was. He’s was a commie doctor that help out Mao in the war. I knwo there are not many famous Canadian. I would say like

            Alexander Graham Bell, the guy who invented the telephone or James Cameron, Jim Carey…someone like that. They pop out a name I never heard of before. And it not just a few people who mention Norman Bethune, It almost everyone I meet. Nothing wrong with that. He seem like a good guy.

          • El Puma R.

            I hear Maradona or Messi at least 5 times a day.

          • Chang Liu

            To the Chinese there a lots of more famous then Bruce Lee, lame actor and all round charlatan.

          • BiggJ

            Name some. And lets see if people who are not chinese know them. I’m not talking about chinese famous, I’m talking world famous.

          • Chang Liu

            I am not talking about world famous. Read the original thread.

          • El Puma R.

            Correction, he was born in San Francisco.

          • don mario

            and he is also a quarter german, if you want to get into pointless details that mean nothing.. he was basicly a chinese dude raised in hong kong.

          • Chang Liu

            http://www.imdb.com/list/8fOdHiOT7H0/

            Listed no.4 on IMDB’s Greatest Cult Movie Icon List.

            There what more F*CKING proof do you need?

          • don mario

            doesnt load. anyway i have already brought up the point that the majority of chinese movies are kung fu and that if you are really saying that he is a cult icon, you are saying the majority of chinese films are cult films, seems a weird thing to say when you are trying to defend them.

          • Chang Liu

            Fine, just type in google cult movie Icons, and I bet any list will have Bruce Lee in it. What in the seven hells make you think majority of Chinese film are kung fu films? Bruce Lee and Shaw Brother films are characterised by their fantastical content, adolescent wish-fulfilment which are deeply routed in their pulp origin. They are controversial even in China about their glorification of violence. Recently a spade of directors like Ang Lee and Wachowskis have brought mainstream repeatability to the genre. But that happened way after Bruce Lee’s death. I love Chinese cinema as you probably gathered if you read any of my other post. None of them have flying round kick to the head in them.

          • don mario

            man, i cant even be bothered with you.

          • Chang Liu

            In the face of overwhelming evidence now you suddenly can’t be bothered. I expected as much.

          • don mario

            no, like i couldnt go and find a web link about bruce lee that was worded differently and didnt have the word cult in it? give me a break dude, you have a issue with bruce lee and you want to take it up with me. im not interested man.

            i already pointed out the next best known chinese would be jackie chan, another ‘cult’ star according to you.

            i am guessing that you are trying to say that new chinese kung fu films are not ‘cult’ in the same way as the old ones, because they have ‘mainstream repeatability’ , yea i dont want to follow that up because its total GUFF. go and argue with kai.

          • Chang Liu

            No Jackie Chan is mainstream. Because his kungfu is mixed with acrobatics and physical comedy thus he’s brand of kung fu films are much more readily acceptable by the mainstream. Where as BL’s screeching on screen shenanigans have lots of parents worried. Hope you see the difference.

          • don mario

            so kung fu is only cult if it fits your definition of it? so all those other kung fu’s that are not bruce lee are fine, becuase they are not bruce lee…. even though he is the biggest kung fu and martial arts star the world has ever seen. dude, you are ridiculous, and you have an issue with bruce lee that is plain as day to see. dont talk to me.

          • Chang Liu

            Dude take it up with IMDB, the biggest, most authoritative, most popular website on movies in the world. Bruce Lee is on the Cult List (no. 4) and Jackie isn’t. End of.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            They can be considered a joke or something, but at least HKers didnt’t produce garbage like ‘twilight’ saga LOL

          • YourSupremeCommander

            Ok, so if I worked for a McDonald’s in New York (which I have), I can boldly claim on the internet that I have worked at a famous culinary institution in the capitol of the world, right? Get the fuck outta here numb nuts.

          • don mario

            to be fair, the people i was working for were very cool people. forward thinking, intelligent and they have balls. the general standard i am sure is much worse than those guys. and they were producing pure crap to begin with. i shudder to think about it. i had some involvment with other companys and what they were producing and how they were working was rough to say the least. i also have friends working in the same industry, the storys i have heard make my head hurt.

            i am just saying what i have learnt, feel free to ignore it if you want.. go ahead…. continue to blind yourself to the truth.

          • Kai

            Being fair is good. Being so certain what you have learned and thus think is “the truth” is not so much.

          • don mario

            i guess what i saw happening was just a bunch of people trying to fool me. yea, you must be right, what i saw with my own eyes and accepted as reality was not true at all. gimme a break.

          • Kai

            My point is the “you can ignore me but you’re blinding yourself to the truth” remark is kind of arrogant and dismissive. It’s one thing to argue for one’s perspective and try to persuade others, but another to just declare what you think to be “the truth” and anyone who disagrees to be “blinding” themselves to “the truth”.

            You’re upset about how YourSupremeCommander is reacting to you, but he’s also upset with your reaction. I dunno, both of you are saying inflammatory things. We all do, I get it, but I think its a start to at least recognize it and try to stick to arguing points instead of insults.

          • don mario

            fair enough. i am not allowed to be arrogant on the chinasmack discussion threads. the mods have decreed it to be…

          • Kai

            You are allowed, as so many of your comments and other people’s comments here testify. I’m also allowed to remark about it and voice my personal discouragement of it. You didn’t really expect to be able to comment on others without others commenting on you, right?

          • don mario

            thank you for allowing it, oh faithful mod above.

          • lacompacida

            Now I understand why you don’t understand this particular movie at all, and why you don’t think it is any good.

          • Chang Liu

            No you don’t.

        • YourSupremeCommander

          You obviously worked on one single shitty mainland movie, and if you go about your life and making decisions based only on ONE SINGLE example of everything… son, I suggest you put down your mom’s keyboard, and go out and see the world a little bit.

          • Chang Liu

            Well said! If a little bit harsh but gets the point across.

          • don mario

            ignorance is great isnt it……. if you want to live your life as a moronic fool that is.

      • Elf Queen

        I agree.There are some HK movies I saw lately,I just couldnt pass the 10 minute mark.They try to be European style too much,it feels forced. There are many excellent mainland movies.

      • BiggJ

        Most of the Chinese movies I’ve see lately are garbage. The actors are just horrible. It’s enough to make you laugh through the whole movie. I’d watch a godzilla movie over a mainland chinese movie anyday. It’s just one huge propaganda advertisement. American movies are the same, just more entertaining, with better actors. It’s pretty bad when China’s best actor is Jackie Chan. Don’t get me wrong I do like Jackie Chan. lol

      • linette lee

        ………..most movies made in HK or Taiwan. In any case most HK and Taiwan movies are pretty much all made in mainland China …………

        Almost all of Hk and Taiwan movies are made and produced by Hk film companies and Hk film crew and directors with mainland companies money investment. So your number one box office films are mostly hk films directed by Hk directors and produced by hk film crew with china company investment money.

        • lacompacida

          This Pi thingie happen to be made in Taiwan, even if it is not a “Taiwan movie”. And which part of this movie was made in China ?

      • El Puma R.

        (Facepalm)

        Chinese movies? Pure white-glove trash full of anti-foreigner propaganda… I mean.. EVERY year you’re gonna make a movie about the Japanese occupation? And do you have any movies where your shitty actors don’t cry?

        AND CAN YOU GO TO THE MOVIES AND NOT TALK IN YOUR GOD DAMN PHONE FOR GOD’S FUCKING SAKE?

        You even delayed “Skyfall” for 3 months just because you had some Chinese movies coming up… yes, and one of them was about fighting Japan.

        • Hongwu Emperor

          Well, it depends on the audience. anti-japan movies sell a lot because SOME people [spec. fenqing] want to see them get beaten, exploded, blabla…

          Just like action,fighting and police movies are a great success in the US no? specially those where the hero kicks the butt of the villain,gets the girl on the end,etc…

          I think its wrong to do propaganda movie but still, money speaks yes? =[

          • Nick in Beijing

            I have to agree with you here. Money does speak in film.

            There are a lot of small, independent movies made in China that are good, but they are generally unknown inside of China, and sometimes even banned in China.

            My girl is director of distribution for one of China’s bigger film studios (no I won’t tell you which one because I don’t want to give anyone the opportunity to find out who people close to me are). She comes home almost daily with stories about how hard it is to make a good movie in China simply due to the restrictions placed on the ideation process, the amount of palms that have to be greased both in the government film administration and with the theaters to get them to show movies (even movies by and with big names).

            The propaganda films are big because that is what the government allows people to produce. The shitty movies that are basically shopping mall advertisements are popular because those are the movies the government allows to be produced.

            The only reason why many Chinese movies gross high at the box office is because the release dates of foreign movies approved for viewing in China are strictly manipulated not to coincide with home-grown movies, since most of them have government investment at some level or another. There are very very very few completely privately (non-government) funded movies in China.

            Not only what is popular with the fengqing, but simply the amount of time and money spent in post-production sending a finished film to be screened and censored, having the reel sent back to have 1.3 seconds cut here because the Chinese flag wasn’t filmed in a flattering light etc., etc., etc., and every time the film is sent back the censors find different little nit-picks until someone bribes them, or they get a blowjob.

            I wish LIttle Wolff was still active here, he worked in film and could chime in with some interesting comments of his own.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            ^ This

          • donkeykong

            Thanks, very interesting, and explains a lot.

      • tonkotsu

        “Second of all, mainland Chinese movies (quite a few of them) are 1000% times better than most movies made in HK or Taiwan”

        I don’t think you live in the same dimension as the rest of us……..

      • lacompacida

        Why do the few retarded Chinese all congregate on this site, at this article ? Must be a miracle.

    • jon

      If you were less mentally challenged you might actually appreciate that China’s given you a chance to be in the movies. The fact that you flunked even in the Chinese industry (which you yourself claimed to have shit standards) and continue to post butt hurt rants online to insult an entire people shows how pathetic and shallow you are. This is not a generalization, this is idiosyncratic to you. If you got a pair instead of complaining on a blog do it to your Chinese director’s face and tell him/her to raise the standards, (though it’s doubtful you’ll be hired in any industry with a high standard) else stfu, retard.

      • don mario

        i flunked? how did i flunk? i was hired for a specialised skill that the locals didnt have and i was paid for the service i rendered. i told the director my thoughts, and some words of advice. which he didnt agree with.

        your attempted insult in your last comment is bunk to. i laugh at thee.

        • tonkotsu

          you’re not butthurt by his comment, that’s why you replied to him and brought up your specialist bs……….. BIG YAWN

          • don mario

            he said my previous comments were butt-hurt. not my reply to his one, this isnt back to the future dumb ass!

            specialist BS? that is one of the only reasons chinese hire foreigners, because they cant get a chinese person to do it themselves. did you not notice already? there are a fucking lot of people in china. they wouldn’t give someone a job unless they cant hire a chinese person to do it. its a pretty simple concept to understand…. if you are not a half functioning retard.

    • Anon992

      Don, I didn’t read all the comments, but the ones I did were actually really quite balanced and well thought out.

      I came to the comments anticipating angry patriotism but there were some great comments here. Is it possible you are only seeing the comments which fit with what you expected?

      Seems to me that some Chinese people are slowly becoming more intellectually mature.

      • don mario

        i read all of them, some as you said were written quite fairly. but i was commenting on the crazy retard level ones… such as this.

        “Also as a Chinese, I should be happy for Ang Lee’s Oscar win, but with that movie of his instead using dirty filthy India as its backdrop, spreading to the world Indian culture, I feel deep inside he long ago lost his Chinese heart, and I don’t feel his winning makes me very much pride. Just like not feeling pride when Taiwan’s entertainment industry is recognized by the world! Only because I have a true [mainland] Chinese heart!”

        the thing is, almost everytime i have talked to a chinese person and taiwan has come up, they always made a point to say ‘but taiwan is part of china’ so i know how common this way of thinking actually is.

        • Anon992

          Ye, I have this negative impression too. Robotic regurgitation of the government line. That’s why I was surprised to see these quite mature comments. Maybe Fauna is unfairly reflecting the tone of the comments in his/her selection???

          I like the idea that, slowly, this silly brainwashed hair-trigger jingoism is fading and a new generation of young, open-minded, internet savvy, Chinese people are starting to see it for the bullsh*t it is.

          I guess my point is… credit where credit is due, and, if the comments on this page are truly reflective of the tone of the sites.. things are looking up. Forget the ‘retards’. No need for us to sink with them in the quagmire of their hatred… as long as they are only the minority.

          • don mario

            thats what drew my attention. i make no bones about it, i think that is one of the worst things about china and is a big part of the reason i wont live there again. -along with pollution, driving and food safety worries.

            if i was living in china i am sure i would just ignore it the best i can to make my life as smooth as possible, but im not.

          • Kai

            Credit where credit is due, this post was by Cecilia, not Fauna.

          • Anon992

            and there was I was I thinking you were a pedantic nitpicker who’s a moderator of a website (who’s either paid nothing or very little for the pleasure) with their free time because they take pleasure in condescendingly dissecting the smaller points of people’s opinions under the impression that playing the middle ground with lawyer-like tiny inane observations means that their opinions are, in fact, intellectually superior.

            How _____ was I!?

          • Kai

            I guess I’m all of those things as well as someone who just wanted to give one of our translators credit for her work.

            Let’s just say I’d rather be me than you, some guy who has used multiple identities over the years on cS spouting his own sort of pedantic and condescending but ultimately pedestrian and stereotypical opinions, embracing strength of opinion as somehow truth and denigrating being reasonable as “liberal” and something to look down upon. I don’t really understand why you’re so threatened by nuance and other perspectives. Or why you’re so threatened by me. You are who you are and I am who I am.

    • taikongren

      I don’t know about your background and whatnot. But your comment shows a lot of ignorance about Chinese film history as well as the Oscar process. While China does not produce a lot of great films (because of censorship, money issues, etc), it has some really great directors who have made some truly great films. Everything Zhang Yimou did before Hero was much better than Life of Pi. Heck, everything Ang Li did before The Hulk is better than Life of Pi.

      And the Oscars are won by people who make OK movies that the Oscar voting community (mostly older, white movie industry insiders) likes, and then go on to campaign for those movies. This year (literally) a propaganda film (“Argo”) won Best Picture, over much greater movies. That’s because the movie appealed to the Oscar voters, and because Afleck and his studio campaigned for the award. That’s not something that anyone should be proud of. If you are in the movie business (as Jon below suggested), you should know this already.

      • don mario

        ok, i admit i could of worded that post better. i should of put the mainland chinese industry compared to hong kong and compared to directors making a sucess overseas like ang lee.

        the best chinese film i ever saw was directed by a mainlander.

  • don mario

    “Boycott Ang Lee! He thanked Taiwan but not China at the Oscar Awards Ceremony. I’d rather go eat a red bean pie at McDonald’s than go see Life of Pi!!!”

    mainlander gets a brain overload when a taiwanese, who they have been lead to believe is part of china….does not thank china. DOES. NOT. COMPUTE. lol

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=22624249 Sean Cauffiel

    Also…. California is Mexico, and all the Soviet states are Russia.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=22624249 Sean Cauffiel

    Does anyone else ever wish they could reply directly to the translated comments?

    • tonkotsu

      i wish i can reply by punching them directly through their monitors

  • YourSupremeCommander

    He needs to get a prettier wife, that’s for sure.

    • afs

      his wife is cute and you’re just jelly

    • don mario

      who gives a flying fuck? does he have a reputation as a hunk that i am not aware of something?

    • Chang Liu

      Thats a bit harsh. I am sure she is a capable woman.

    • mr.wiener

      Would he be “true to his Chinese heart” if he dumps his wife of many tears and gets a bit ‘o fluff on the side?

  • Jack McCain

    china is china and Taiwan IS NOT china! so please stop dreaming.

    • Chang Liu

      Wrong, Taiwan is Republic of China. Guess what? The population of Taiwan are of Chinese descent.
      Taiwan is the name of the Island not the Country pea-brain.
      Great Britain is the name of the Island and United Kingdom is the name of he country. They can be used interchangeably. What kind moron are you?

      • WronglyRabbit

        Actually the name of the island Taiwan is on is Formosa, and Great Britain is on the isle of Britain. Americans are of British descent, I suppose we should cut to London to get the response to the Oscars?

        • Chang Liu

          Formosa is the Colonial name given to it by the Portuguese. It is called Taiwan by Chinese people who live there and rightly reverted.
          Only small portion of US is of British Descent, you forget the Germans, Jews, the slaves, Native Americans, The Dutch (New York used to be New Amsterdam), Poles etc. etc. Taiwan has a Main land Chinese government who lost after the civil war establish itself on the island that claimed de facto legitimacy of the WHOLE of china. At what point did USA claim to be the legitimate government of UK? Your ignorance of the issue at hand is clouding your judgement.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Said everything!

          • WronglyRabbit

            I don’t suppose you find it ironic to end your post talking about judgement being clouded when you began it speaking about how people “rightly” did something?

          • ogami_ito

            Actually, up till the 20th century, more than 80% of Americans were descended from the English. Now its around 35%… not what I would call a small portion.

            Taiwanese people fall into two camps: those who think that they are Taiwanese first… who identify themselves as Taiwanese (not Chinese), and those who see themselves as Chinese. The vast majority of Taiwanese identify as Taiwanese.

          • Chang Liu

            Thats is simply not true. Most surveys don’t make it explicite that being Taiwanese excludes being Chinese which is what you are implying here. The ones that do overwhelmingly don’t agree. Why do you think the Pro unification KMT got back into power 2 elections running? The surveys that makes distinction between eventual unification with/without Communist China show clear majority wanting eventual unification.

            Where did you get the 80% from. Care to link to a credible source? Just in terms of population it is impossible considering the HUGE influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe and Black people in USA who numbered in the millions already by the 19th Century.

          • ogami_ito

            Hi Mr. Liu,

            Look up on Wikipedia about US Immigration.history and demographics. I know I read on there that native born population had always stayed around 85 % of population of USA since mid 18th century and that the population from Brittish empire (including Ireland) was usually above 80%. Today of course is different. If I’m wrong here then I will admit my mistake… I did research this a while ago.

            AS far as Taiwanese… I have read a lot of surveys too which say mostly they see themselves as ETHNIC CHINESE (except the 14% of population who are not). I have not seen any survey showing majority of them hold the belief that they are part of China. KMT is not pro-unification… the KMT says unification is their goal… if the rest of China is politically and culturally as advanced as Taiwan. Which means unification is a goal when China gets Democracy. Which means… maybe never. The KMT got elected because of the desire of Taiwanese people to have stronger economic ties with China in order to improve their own economy… not because people want unification.

            Don’t believe me? Do your own survey. I have been living in China for the last 8 years. I sell services to Taiwanese companies and know about 30 -50 Taiwanese people in my city. About 3/4ths are KMT supporters who believe in a policy of avoiding provoking disputes with China. NONE of them believe in unification, except maybe as a far-future science-fiction concept. That’s not the same thing as really believing in this goal. When I lived in Taiwan years ago… none of the 本省人 thought that unification was possible nor desirable. None of them cared a shit about China (Mainland) and wanted nothing to do with China.

            Ask yourself or your friends this; when was the last time you met a Taiwanese person who introduced him/herself to you as “I’m Chinese”? not “I’m Taiwanese.”?

          • Chang Liu

            My point was simple of course people from Republic of China don’t consider themselves citizens of People’s Republic of China, they are not the same. At what point did I say they where? Did you read what I said? I have never met a Beijinger calling himself and Shanghainese either, that is a GIVEN.

          • Chang Liu

            I am 100% sure your 80% population is wrong! Give me link to the source.

          • Chang Liu

            Actually the Largest ancestry in the US is of German descent!

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

            I am fascinated by where you got you clearly wrong data from?

          • lacompacida

            Not the Portuguese. The Dutch called it Formosa first. And soon established the first effective administration on the island. Built a couple of cities too. That’s why Formosa is undeniably and historically an integrated, sacret, and inseparable part of Netherlands.

          • Chang Liu

            Sry I meant the Dutch for some reason wrote Portuguese!
            The rest don’t deserve reply.

        • lacompacida

          Americans are of British descent ? Never met a Pole there ? Or Ukrainian, or Dutch, or Italian, or German…

          • El Puma R.

            all of you to the history books please. I’m on it right now.

      • El Puma R.

        If Taiwan was the same as Mainland China then they wouldn’t be getting any Oscars either ! =P

        • Chang Liu

          ???

          • El Puma R.

            China makes a lot of bad movies bro. And taiwan certainly approves the free study of the arts instead of the “copy the master” art schools they have in Mainland.

            We all know it’s a bad mistake to let China take control over Taiwan and HK education… shit, over education in general. So if Taiwan was fully Chinese then more artists and academics will have to flee just like HK people in 1997 and a lot of mainland chinese did during the cultural revolution.

            It’s all crystal clear to me, Taiwanese guy gets recognition and y’all start bitchin about Taiwan being Chinese but he didn’t say “China”.

            Let me tell you I’m pretty fucking sure these guys making money couldn’t give less of a fuck about all this geopolitical nonsense. And neither the poor people who is growing our food and building our technology right now.

            China’s relationship with Taiwan is like the terrible parent who doesn’t know he’s a terrible parent and doesn’t want his son to leave the house and be independent. or maybe Munchhausen syndrome?

            And all the stupid support to these idiotic theories, regardless of which side we take, come straight from the hearts of the average people who dare to call themselves free but have nothing but imposed limits within their minds and hearts.

          • Chang Liu

            Wikipedia will solve your little problem.

      • mr.wiener

        It’s China-lite and many of the people have other elements mixed in with their genetics. I don’t care what anyone else calls it. I calls it home.

        • Chang Liu

          Guess what Han Chinese isn’t an ethnicity it is actually a cultural identification.

          • mr.wiener

            I was talking about the dutch and the Japanese, as well as all the taiwan aboriginal tribes of course, I don’t think they can be classed as Han.

          • Chang Liu

            And? Fujian was already part of Fujian Province before the Dutch came… I am sure you can research its history in more detail but this much is true. Check on Ming Dynasty maps.

          • mr.wiener

            ?

          • Chang Liu

            I meant Taiwan, ooops.

    • tonkotsu

      i think you should actually be saying taiwan is actually china and china is not china..

      • lacompacida

        Mainland China is just a remaining part of USSR.

        • Chang Liu

          The most retarded and historically inaccurate BS i have ever heard. Pick up any book on the subject please, don’t smother us with your ignorance.

      • Chang Liu

        Good point.

  • afs

    now i’m craving in-and-out. thanks a lot, ang lee.

  • El Puma R.

    Come on China, admit it ! China will have to conform itself with the Oscar you got for “Crouching tiger hidden dragon” and nothing else, ever again. And I’d say that was consolation award, so you would finally stop crying.

    Instead of resent and hate toward your own kin, China you should think why you don’t have decent artists o at least a developed way of thinking. Your gvt censors someone because he didn’t thank somebody who never helped that someone in the first place.. and you support it. What a bunch of retards.

    Crying at the airport, crying ’cause nobody nominates you for an oscar, crying because you can’t get an iPad, annoyingly crying in every Chinese movie and tv show, crying ’cause you can’t steal more money from the charity, crying for japan after almost 100 years of it’s occupation, crying for taiwan ’cause they have true artists, cry cry cry, like your children cry for nothing, that’s all you can do.

    The borders and limitations are all set by yourself within your head.

    Now Get yourself together! (bitchslap)

    • filabusta

      I tried to watch Crouching Tiger twice and I fell asleep both times. I never fall asleep to movies.

      • El Puma R.

        I fall asleep every time I watch a Chinese movie… no shit, all that talking and talking makes me bored as fuck

  • tonkotsu

    lol @ the majority of comments being about his shout out “thank taiwan” instead of his achievement. mainlanders are frigging unbelievable!!

  • mr.wiener

    {a netezin writes}
    “Also as a Chinese, I should be happy for Ang Lee’s Oscar win, but with that movie of his instead using dirty filthy India as its backdrop, spreading to the world Indian culture, I feel deep inside he long ago lost his Chinese heart, and I don’t feel his winning makes me very much pride. Just like not feeling pride when Taiwan’s entertainment industry is recognized by the world! Only because I have a true [mainland] Chinese heart!”

    Good to see there is one Chinese heart staying true to it’s roots….lol

    • Hongwu Emperor

      Well, at least he said ‘I have a true chinese heart’ ^_^

      • Nick in Beijing

        As opposed to having a human heart.

      • mr.wiener

        A transplant from an executed drug dealer?

        • Hongwu Emperor

          … ?
          In fact chinese tradition is strongly against removing parts of your body, no matter if the person is alive OR dead.

          • mr.wiener

            Too bad Chinese tradition is at odds with the local ministry of Justices need to buy a new audi for his wife[s].

    • vincent

      Not sure whether that commentator was trolling or retarded =.=”

      • mr.wiener

        I’ll go with retarded, unless Kai feels that I am missing a nuance of mainland irony of which I was previously unaware?

        • Kai

          No, I don’t read any irony there. I’m interpreting it the same as others.

          What disagreement did I have with you in the past to have made you worry about what I think?

          • mr.wiener

            tsk. Don’t be so paranoid Kai. I was just defering to your expertise.

          • Kai

            Pshaw, you do understand I could’ve responded to you initially by asking why you were so paranoid about me, right?

          • mr.wiener

            tish and pish sir. I’m not paranoid about you [why!? what have you been saying about me behind my back!?!]
            I think you have given me a different interpretation on things before and I wondered if I might be wrong again. As I get older I find my narrow waist and broad mind are changing places.

          • Kai

            Interestingly, I think I’m becoming more broad minded as I get older, but sadly my waist is getting broader too.

            About paranoia, my question would be similarly, why do think I might be paranoid? I just thought it was ironic for you to suggest I was being paranoid when you were the one who first mentioned me, by name, and it was essentially in the context of “unless so and so thinks I’m wrong”. If someone goes around vocally worrying about someone else disagreeing with them, that strikes me as kinda paranoid, don’t you think? I know I’ve had run-ins with others on cS, but I couldn’t think of any history between us to explain why you might feel that way about me. Granted, it didn’t have to be directly between us. We all more or less leave certain impressions on people and I get that.

            Anyway, when I think of mr.weiner, I only recall jokes about sausages and vaguely maybe a picture of you eating (was that you or someone else?). Pleasant guy overall.

  • Bugs Bunny

    never into any of his films, i have heavy taste!
    also the same reason, his films always with weak stories.too much flatter oscar.

    • Bugs Bunny

      but by the way , every year just that several big films, and the topic can be chosen for oscar much less.

  • lacompacida

    So mainlanders really want to alienate Taiwanese. Must be good for unification.

    • radbab

      nah, this and the 5000 missiles aimed at taiwan just show the fatherly love of the party for taiwan and its people. I’m pretty sure the taiwanese see it the same and just wait for the day they’re liberated!

  • kevin lin

    zeng_龙海:
    Also as a Chinese, I should be happy for Ang Lee’s Oscar win, but with that movie of his instead using dirty filthy India as its backdrop, spreading to the world Indian culture, I feel deep inside he long ago lost his Chinese heart, and I don’t feel his winning makes me very much pride. Just like not feeling pride when Taiwan’s entertainment industry is recognized by the world! Only because I have a true [mainland] Chinese heart!

    My response to him is that he is an idiot for being so ignorant. Life of Pi was based on a book, and the book was set in India. Also, even if it wasnt originally a book, he shouldnt complain about the director cuz he’s not the one writing the story. Spreading Indian culture? This novel was popular and famous wayyyy before the movie was even made. And leave TAIWAN ALONE!

  • Made in Taiwan

    LOL at China media reactions. Deleting a speech. Pathetic.

  • filabusta

    The comment on his wife is great.

  • Foreign Devil

    Fools. Don’t they realize that this film featuring Indians and some of his other films would have never got funding or approval if he lived in mainland China? The CPC has a stranglehold on the TV and film industry here and stifle and censor like they are the Talmud. Thank god he was born in Taiwan and had creative freedom!

    • Chang Liu

      Thats really ignorant of you, some of the best films that comes out of China didn’t receive approval and are banned in China.

      • Daniel Tynan

        Right so you just proved my point. Imagine all the great films China could produce if they all could be freely distributed in China and not censored and banned and rely entirely on foreign funding to be made. I lived in China and worked in the film industry. . what are your qualifications to call me ignorant on this subject??? As an outsider who spent much time in China I know more about it than most insiders who are only fed propaganda all their lives.

        • Chang Liu

          ‘film featuring Indians and some of his other films would have never got funding or approval if he lived in mainland China?’ Right so you are in the film industry and you are telling me no films with Indians in them gets made? LOL, and films like I suppose his earlier work exploring subjects like homosexuality won’t get made? Sorry news flash, go watch East Palace West Palace. I do agree with you in China more difficult but A. people get those films done, B. they are better as a result. Are you claiming that maybe films that criticizes Chineses society or regime can’t be made and won’t pass the censors? Go watch the recent Wang Xiaoshuai ’11 Flowers’ or any film by the ‘fifth generation’ director. Do they get into trouble for their efforts? Yes, Do they get their films made eventually? Yes.

      • Foreign Devil

        Chang Liu. . You have a unique talent for totally missing the point and resorting to jingoism and clichees to kill and debate. . You may have a future in politics in Beijing!

        • Chang Liu

          You totally missed the point. Being in a repressive society oftentimes accentuates creativity due to the limitations and pressure. Don’t be blind.

  • radbab

    Can’t people just relax a bit and be happy? I’m happy for all of China that they have a great director with Chinese heritage who shows the world that there’s great talent too in this part of the world.

    If they want to play the nationalist card, be happy he’s from Taiwan and not from the “evil evil evil” Phillipines/Vietnam/Japan/enemy-of-the-day. Dear Chinese people, just be happy for once…ok?

    • Kai

      Heh, don’t worry, most of them are. The above comments seem to be the ones that got attention on Sina Weibo, because comments like “congratulations Ang Lee” don’t get much attention.

  • Dave

    Where is all this angry patriotism coming from recently? Bitter at the west, bitter at Taiwain… More and more, the shitty youth are howling.

  • Pandapanda

    Was looking for weird ass Chinese comments and wasn’t surprised. Ang Lee has made tonnes of movies with Chinese themes and culture. So this one has India over parts of it and some people go ballistic. Morons.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rosemon.pilot Rosemon Calvin Pilot

    ….The AVENGERS WAS ROBBED!!!!

  • moody

    Great Movie, well desearved award.

    So much butthurt is beyond my understanding.

    For those who think Taiwan is Chinese, Thanking Taiwan means thanking China.
    For those who think Taiwan does not belong to the mainland, then thanking Taiwan means thanking Taiwan.
    No matter what the guy would have said, they’d still be pissed off.
    Butthurt will always be butthurt.

  • nannasin smith

    the Oscar statuette still gripped tightly in his hand.

    S8050

  • fabulous

    This happens in the west too.
    Does nobody remember the storm that was kicked up when Keanu Reeves won the Best Actor Oscar for “A Walk to Remember” and he thanked Lebanon without thanking Canada?
    Canadian TV network CBC, edited in the word “Canada”, while you could clearly see his mouth forming the word “Lebanon”.
    I remember Leno ran with that story for a week and a half.

  • The Extraordinary Gentleman

    The comments are pretty fun to read! Much more intellectual and rational than lots of other threads about Taiwan-China relationship. But back to the main question: even assuming Taiwan is part of “China” (whatever that means) as merely a province of China. Why does Ang Lee had to thank “China”? If Steven Spielberg have won, can’t he just thank California and Los Angeles, but not mention USA? Why does he have to thank USA if the only one giving help was California and Los Angeles? I’m sure USA citizens won’t be offended simply because Spielberg did not mention the country’s name. I don’t remember the director of “Amour” thanking France either.

  • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

    Just watch it yesterday. I did not understand the ending but anything to do with god are always like that. Vague, peer pressure, and up-to-the viewer/reader’s own interpretation of meaningless thing followed by sheep pretending to have an enlightenment moment. If its going to have something to do with god then used Pagan religion, it would fit the movie well. I would have enjoyed the movie better if its just on the relationship between him and the tiger rather than bringing that god thing. The ending scene with the question doesnt make sense. It appears as if im the only one who miss the enlightenment train at the end of the movie. Well fuck it, its just spiritual gangnam style for the hollow.

    • Chang Liu

      Thats because the book is shit.

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