Angry Shanghai Residents Dump Water on Noisy Foreigners

A Crowd of Foreigners Gathered at the Bar Street of Shanghai Late at Night.

From Yahoo:

Shanghai Residents Throw Water on Foreigners, Protesting Their Noise as Disturbing Residents

According to a March 13th report by the UK’s Daily Telegraph, recently on Yongkang Road, Shanghai, approximately 200 foreigners enjoying the nightlife on Yongkang Road had water dumped on them in protest by angry local residents for being too noisy at night and disturbing their rest.

According to reports, this well-known “bar street” used to be part of the French Concession in the past, and most of the people who visit there are usually European. Local residents living there complained that they have been putting up with the noise from the street for at least a year now.

A Crowd of Foreigners Gathered at the Bar Street of Shanghai Late at Night.

The report says this water throwing incident occurred around 10pm on the night of March 9th when a few dozen noisy foreigners had water thrown at them by at least one household. One British person claimed that at around 9pm the night before, he witnessed a similar incident while dining at a local sushi restaurant.

28-year-old photography producer Michael Ashford described what happened on the night of March 9, “The place was absolutely crawling with people, mainly non-Chinese. It was quite crazy really, how many people were out – and it was loud. Out the corner of my eye I saw movement outside, then a loud bang and a collective gasp as people got drenched. [I am] not sure whether it was freezing cold water or something other than water. Some people started yelling abuse up at the window and sticking middle fingers up.”

A few photos of the scene were later posted online, inciting various comments and discussions from Chinese netizens. Some netizens expressed contempt and loathing toward these wild-partying peace-disturbing “laowai“.

Comments from Yahoo:

雅虎安徽省合肥市网友 [yangqinbin2008]:

If these people are disturbing the peace, just call the police, there’s no need to dump water on them!

雅虎意大利网友 [雁过留声]:

In certain civilized countries, people usually call the police to come handle situations like this, and what more, only when the noise is happening too late (like after 10 or 11pm). Also, entertainment places such as bars should avoid be located in residential areas…

雅虎秘鲁网友 [sunyoung2008]:

Sometimes I feel that our police treat laowai differently than the way they treat us local citizens…which really makes me bitter/upset!

雅虎河北省保定市网友 [li312198104@yahoo.cn]:

Foreigners who don’t abide by the rules can all get lost out of China. Now is not late Qing Dynasty anymore.

雅虎美国网友 [piyajie401]:

Those Shanghai residents totally did what they should do, I support them! Teach these ill-mannered loud foreigners a lesson… Similarly, many of our countrymen are also loud, spitting and littering garbage wherever they please, bringing their bad habits abroad, making foreigners also detest our countrymen! I hope our countrymen will examine themselves as well. Character and self-cultivation is very important, without which one is nothing but a nouveau riche

雅虎上海市浦东新区网友 [毛毛]:

Usually it is not a disturbance when not that many people come to the bars, it’s only when there are a lot of people that it becomes a disturbance. Actually, this could’ve been solved through other channels/methods, rather than handling it with an uncivilized method. And of course the behavior of some individuals does not necessarily represent all Shanghai residents.

雅虎澳大利亚网友 [baiyilu88]:

In some countries if someone is being noisy after a certain time at night, people can call the police and let them handle it. I guess in Shanghai there’s no such a regulation.

雅虎上海市黄浦区网友 [cheejm1949]:

They had to do what they had to do. Otherwise, what would you have the people living there do?

雅虎欧洲网友 [yyn7747]:

They should’ve dumped boiling water instead.

雅虎上海市闸北区网友 [•••]:

Was the water pig-flavored?

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  • linette lee

    wet sofa

    • El Puma R.

      Hm… wet ;)

    • TheDon

      Hummm, i like it wet too but apparently too slippery and u slipped down , somebody else sat on it

    • Dr Sun

      you liked the photos I sent you then .

  • asdf

    Not bad

  • El Puma R.

    Sofa from Latin America ! xx

  • YourSupremeCommander

    Somehow, somewhere, some white dude will spin this into the Chinese crowd is merely jealous of the noisy foreigner’s bigger junk.

    I can see it from a mile away, trust me on this.

    • BiggJ

      But isn’t that what the problem always is. :)

    • Some white dude

      You know what!! Them der Chinky Chonks jus jealus cuz of my big ding dong!

      • nintendo-nerd

        Another typical Chinese-hating troll who has nothing better to do than post on a Chinese site, I see.

        • http://www.youtube.com/user/VictimOfBoredom Matt

          I thought his comment was pretty funny…

        • Some white dude

          How could you miss the sarcasm?? You hella dumb

      • http://karmaeconomics.blogspot.com/ lavista4u

        hahaha…That was funny

    • mr.wiener

      If you can see it from a mile away then it must be some big junk!

  • Choco

    At least they didn’t dump pee on them. Hope it’s clean water though.

    • BiggJ

      Clean water in china? come on now…..

    • carmouflagger

      Probably dead pig-accented water… it’s shanghai remember?

      • mr.wiener

        mmmmm…..Bacon water :P

  • BiggJ

    Lame…..someone had water thrown on them for being noisy??? So fucking lame. Wait me get this discussion started…”Fucking white devils cracker ass running dogs……….You stinking fucking chinese dog eating mother fuckers.
    There…. let it begin.

  • http://mykafkaesquelife.blogspot.com/ My Kafkaesque Life

    Both sides need to show more consideration for each other. Throwing water is not the right way, but rowdy noisy behavior is not good either. It’s hard for us readers to judge what’s happening there every weekend. The headline will attract a lot of attention, but it won’t help us to find the truth. Let’s not use this story to start attack each other.

    • bprichard

      The truth is very simple. The developers created something that is great for money making without taking into accounts the concerns of the residents. The establishments in this development then become very popular, probably more popular than expected.

      Then the police have been useless as usual, as they’re always in someone’s pocket. I’m quite sure that residents have called the police before and have just grown more and more frustrated that nothing is being done.

      That being said, dumping water on people is a stupid response that is going to do nothing to improve the situation.

  • ejownz6

    Reminds me of the UCLA student upset about noisy Asians in the library.

    Another example that multiculturalism and diversity doesn’t work. Anytime a problem arises it’s all about race and not the actual problem. Suddenly a white person has never been noisy in a library and an asian person has never been noisy at night.

    This will never change, in fact people are becoming dumber as time goes on.

    • Reila90

      True. But who promote the ideology of globalization at first place? it’s not the Asians for sure.

      • Zappa Frank

        ok than why don’t asian people go first outside westerners countries? they are a lot more than westerners in asians countries..and by far less rich and more troublesome than westerners in asia.

        • Reila90

          “Go first”? what “westerners countries”? America & Australia are “westerners countries”? who “go first” to those islands before “Asian people”? everyone can be rich if they can stole natural resources in other people’s land.

          • http://profiles.google.com/henryc4545 Henry C

            See above comment. How quickly you’ve forgotten Japan’s history of imperialism.

          • narsfweasels

            Have you forgotten that prior to Japan’s history of Imperialism that China had a history of turning its neighbours into vassal states?

            I mean, that’s what rankles, isn’t it? Not that the Japanese dominated you, but the fact that they turned the tables. That’s what really sticks in the ol’ craw, isn’t it? It would have been fine if they had stayed all subservient and “known their place” but they dared to ape their betters…. and were better at it.

          • donscarletti

            Until Japan gives Hokkaido back to the Ainu and frees the Ryukyu Islands you can shut the fuck up there.

          • anon101

            don, LOL as soon as china admits Taiwan isnt Chinese, frees tibet, megalopolises to Vietnam, leases its claim on the south china sea and the islands right next to other countrys and frees inner Mongolia. then yeah, japan can look at doing something with the islands.. until then….

        • Alphy

          Ahh.. have you even looked up how many “Westerners” are in China compare with the “Asian” population in countries like the US?

          So a rough figure for your reference, only around 71k Americans are in China. Where as there are over 1.2 million Chinese born resident (not even accounting visitors) in US.

          • Rainer

            Damn those “71k Americans” who ruined all century long spoon-feeding job by western media.

          • Alphy

            What? That doesn’t make any sense. Can you elaborate?

          • sendtodave

            “71k Americans”

            Do you have a citation for that? I’ve been looking for a better breakdown of the laowai population in China than

            http://shanghaiist.com/2011/04/30/total_number_of_foreigners_in_mainl.php

          • Alphy

            Ya it’s from the 2010 China Census so a bit outdated, but I trust it won’t be too much off today. The english break down is on their website:
            http://www.stats.gov.cn/english/newsandcomingevents/t20110429_402722638.htm

            The last paragraph is where I got the information:

            “Of all foreigners covered, 120750 were from the Republic of Korea, 71493 the United States, 66159 from Japan, 39776 from Myanmar, 36205 from Viet Nam, 19990 from Canada, 15087 from France, 15051 from India, 14446 from Germany, and 13286 from Australia. The remaining 181589 persons came from other countries.”

          • sendtodave

            Awesome! Precisely what I was looking for.

            Also, in an obvious location. Color me embarassed :

            Thanks!

          • sendtodave

            Thanks again.

            Great, I can now update my “laowai are stealing all our wimmins” spreadsheet, for the next time that crap comes up.

            Results as follows:

            # non-Asian “laowai” (inc “other”) 316000
            # laowai males @ 60% 189600

            # Chinese females, 20-34 150,000,000
            # CN females per laowai 791

            # CN females @ 40% single 60000000
            # females per laowai 316

            % females prefer laowai 1%
            # females prefer laowai 600000
            # CN females per laowai 3

            This assumes that EVERY “Western” laowai is single (and it is including any non-Western grouped in “other”) , and 40% of Chinese females between 20-35 are single. So, it’s consrvative.

            Conclusion: If only ONE Chinese girls out of ONE HUNDRED wanted a laowai, that’d be three girls per laowai.

            So, sure, we look like pimps, stealing all the girls, but it’s just a numbers game.

          • Alphy

            LOL…. wow… I didn’t know you were doing that with the numbers. For me its kinda in between as I am Chinese American Expat and can speak Chinese, I get a lot of introduction by girl’s parents asking if I need a girlfriend in China… Anyways thanks for the analysis.

          • sendtodave

            Oh, dammtsomuch.

            I don’t think this is saying that there are 600k foreigners; it’s saying that the survey COVERED 600k foreigners, out of who-knows-how-many.

            Of that 600k, 71k were American. Hm.

        • Chang Liu

          Actually you are wrong on both accounts. Chinese ethnic minority have been the highest average earner of all the ethnic groups in the UK including whites.
          “British Chinese men earn the highest median wage for any ethnic group with £12.70 earned per hour, followed by the medians for White British men at £11.40, and Multiracial Britons at £11.30 and British Indian men at £11.20. British Chinese women also earn the highest median wage for any ethnic group third only to Black Caribbean women and Multiracial Briton women with a median wage of £10.21 earned per hour.”

      • http://profiles.google.com/henryc4545 Henry C

        Really? What about Japan colonizing China, Korea, Taiwan, Micronesia, the Philippines, etc. Was this not also to exploit their natural resources?

        • Reila90

          Throughout history East Asian imperialism always respect to any cultures & people civilization. But what Western imperialism did in last 4 centuries to America, Africa, & Australia, is a prove Western imperialism are complete failure. Therefore, Japan is not comparable to Western imperialism.

          • BigCAD

            Oh if you only understood the irony, what with so many races (minorities) having been absorbed by the world’s most successful colonizer, however irony is a foreign concept and will never be understood by yourself “We Chinese have stood up and no longer need iron your laundry!!!”

          • http://profiles.google.com/henryc4545 Henry C

            Reila90 is actually from Japan, making his comment even more ironic.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            how do you know this? is her IP from Japan? if so she might not be a she but a Japanese right wing pretending to be a Taiwanese girl….. somehow not very surprising.

          • cc

            You will always be doing my laundry, its what i pay you for.

          • Guest

            And I use that money to pay your mother so I can butter her lips. You fact you use a picture of her jizz flaps is rather touching.

          • cc

            I don’t pay you that much, you must be doing other peoples laundry as well

          • 1010

            @cdd2f0e04b2cfd3e56a751dcd10ab520:disqus Not his fault your mother is so cheap, eh?

          • cc

            I’ll have you know my mother is not cheap, she charges by the thrust. He’s just unfortunate to last only two thrusts if he’s lucky, hence his nickname of DickmacQuick.

          • mr.wiener

            Since we are telling jokes about your mum, what is the difference between 3 dicks and a joke?
            Your mum can’t take a joke.

          • SuperHappyCow

            rofl

          • cc

            Of course she can, she would take you’re dick and that’s a joke

          • ManofEarth

            ur mother sure regrets not aborting you when she had the chance to do so – lucky u – pitty her ; )

          • mr.wiener

            Haha. Sorry mate.

          • http://profiles.google.com/henryc4545 Henry C

            HAHAHAHAHAHA! Ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, genocidal destruction of entire Chinese towns, Korean “comfort women,” slaughter of Taiwanese aboriginals, and the list goes on and on (unless you are a Japanese right-wing historical revisionist). You are really going to say that Japan always showed “respect to any cultures & people civilization . . . therefore, Japan is not comparable to Western imperialism”? Many Westerners justified imperialism by saying that it was a noble civilizing mission. That is just as bullshit as Japan saying they were “liberating Asia” by raping weaker Asian countries. Have you been to China? Ask a few people there how they feel about Japanese imperialism and its “respect to any cultures.” They know Japan’s imperialist history much better than you, I’m sure. In fact, you don’t need to ask Chinese. Just ask Okinawans.

            Imperialists are imperialists, whether white or Asian like you. You will always justify imperialism with some bullshit ideology about how you “respect other cultures,” at the same time as you rape their women and natural resources.

            You see the world as Asians versus whites. By the way, I am half Asian and half white, and it does not cause me any inner conflict. That is because there are poor people of every color, and there are imperialists and capitalist exploiters of every color. I can only guess that you hold onto Asian supremacist ideas as a way to feel good about yourself without actually doing anything worthwhile. Either that, or you are from a rich family and will find any excuse to excuse your own privilege.

          • brotimes

            this is also more than half a century ago. u can come up what britain, spain and most recently the US of Ass did to the world. But nevertheless it all boils down to one essential truth…

            FUCK SHINA

          • Chang Liu

            There really are better mediums to vent your all encompassing raging hate you know. The US is still in Iraq is it not? Didn’t something like 300,000 (UK Lancet study) die from the conflict alone?

          • y.m.

            you need to go study on japanese hisotry before you make shit up. you’re too brainwashed from your chinese propaganda.

          • Chang Liu

            You don’t get it. The arguments and theory that support Imperialism doesn’t make one ounce of difference when the result if devastation and death by the millions. I.e. the same eventuality. Just go tell the dead that they died by ‘noble’ cause, specially from people they didn’t know or want help from, that will cheer them up.

          • Alain

            Then where does that leave the USSR say? Far worse than the brit empire, dear boy.

          • Chang Liu

            Alright granps time to valium up and stop spouting random irrelevancies.

          • Alain

            Valium, wot sayeth thee? No dear boy you are all wrong a cheeky glass or three of tempranillo is my preferred tipple as of late. Now then my lad I’ve got my hols coming up, but I will be back in training, crack you a hard right that will smart, when you least expect it, hahaha

          • Chang Liu

            Go break a wrist :).

          • Alain

            Already broke them along with my back, no ill be back, you can count on that, esp as you made it personal.

          • Chang Liu

            Maybe memory is failing you but re-read our little exchange. See who started with the name calling.

          • kh404

            which the japanese imperialism was HEAVILY influenced by european ideals. asian countries never promoted globalization traditionally.

          • congee

            Oh Ben, so prior to European contact all the independent societies and kingdoms in the region that become either fully assimilated or essentially ruled indirectly as vassal states did it out of a genuine love and admiration of China’s superior culture? The Chinese themselves played absolutely no role in that imperial expansion, right? Independent kingdoms and societies just came cap in hand and kow-towed before the yellow emperor begging to be colonized and pay tribute and the ever benevolent and selfless Chinese accepted them into the fold solely out of the goodness of their hearts without any ulterior motives.

            I suppose you also believe that the whole country we currently label ‘China’ is and was always populated with a single people called ‘Han Chinese’ who had an identical culture, same language, traditions, etc.? Heck, why not believe all Asian people are actually descended from a single Chinese emperor who got a bit randy on a road trip.

            The Chinese would have ‘globalized’ their imperial system to the same extent as the Europeans eventually did if they were able to develop the sophisticated scientific/technological and social/philosophical structures that the Europeans had or if they were even an ounce less complacent, arrogant, willfully ignorant and dismissive of anything non-Chinese, venal, and corrupt. Deep down that’s what galls Asians, Chinese in particular; these, in their eyes, hairy animal like barbarians not only proved themselves to be more clever but also much more ruthless too.

          • Chang Liu

            The thing was China wasn’t much interested in the rest of the world until it received a rude awakening. It only cared in so far as other nations payed regular tribute.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Huangdi wasn’t necessarily a conqueror, but you can consider him so if you want.

            He was the great unifier of China, uniting the scattered tribes and creating the whole notion of Huaxia, way before Qin [who also took the name Huangdi] united the warring states creating part of the boundaries of current Chinese territory.

          • juanisaac

            No Bologne. The Japanese invaded Korea in the 16th century on their way to conquer conquer China. Have you ever heard of the Mongols who invaded and conquered half the world. Not to mention the Huns, Turks, Manchus, and the Chinese themselves.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Yes, but he was refering to ‘late’ japanese imperialism, influencied by european/western ideals, after the Meiji restoration.

            And Hideyoshi toyotomi [Imjin wars] was a completely crazy guy who thinked he could get pass the Great Wall [irealistically talking the dead bodies of his troops would be mortar for the Great Wall 300-style] conquer the Great Ming and he envisioned an empire bigger than Genghis Khan.

            He even wanted to conquer Europe… poor guy, never passed Shanhaiguan LOL.

          • Chang Liu

            I think many Asian countries have a lot to lose if the current model of globalisation where to suddenly grind to a halt.

          • Charles

            Good point!

          • Charles

            Why are people conflating globalism and imperialism? Very different ideas. To say that globalism is a western phenomenon is just silly. Globalization is the inevitable future, unless you want to go back to the stone age.

          • Chang Liu

            I agree. People seem to have very fuzzy idea about what globalisation means. Globalisation =/= Imperialism =/= Colonialism.
            Globalisation is a recent phenomenon.

          • the other guy

            “I agree. People seem to have very fuzzy idea about what globalisation means. Globalisation =/= Imperialism =/= Colonialism.
            Globalisation is a recent phenomenon.”

            Mmmm, they are different concepts, but not necessary mutually exclusive.

          • Chang Liu

            Sure but it helps the conversation if we are clear about one and not the other.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Globalism is a pussy version of imperialism. Less dead people same CRAP.

            Instead of war chariots and huge armies, modern people gets daily bombardment of shit culture, crap music, stupid modernity,etc etc…

            We’ve yet to call help from Shen Nong, and hope that him can find a cure for such dishonorable poison

          • Reila90

            All you babbling about is war. And war =/= Imperialism. Westerner annihilated human culture, identity & character . While Easterner are not.

            We don’t force people to preach our religion nor demonize their religion, We don’t force people should follow our way of thinking, We don’t segregate & othering them just because they’re different, etc..

            You can simply can say that because you live in western world. You’ll never understand this point of view. Westerner already won the last battle. There will be a time when the table turned.

          • maja_ldm

            please, don’t be ridiculous

          • cb4242

            Sorry, but I have to say, what you are saying is full of revisionist crap! I have been living in Japan for the last 13 years and as an American living in Japan with extensive travel knowledge, I can tell you, Asians do a lot of historical revision, in the case of Japan, it has always seen itself as the victim of WWII and rarely acknowledges any wrong doing. Nanking, never happened? Comfort women, totally consensual. Pearl Harbor, no choice and that’s just the tip of the ice berg, no country is perfect, but don’t make it seem like Asian cultures are blemish free from any sort of scandal.
            We don’t force people to preach our religion nor demonize their religion,

            I’m a Christian, I get put down all the time that being a Christian is a laughable religion and that God doesn’t exist.

            We don’t force people should follow our way of thinking,

            I am always told by Chinese and Japanese and Koreans they they practically invented the entire universe and my thinking of science, medicine, social life is all wrong.

            We don’t segregate & othering them just because they’re different, etc..

            Are you kidding, not only Asians are masters at segregation, in Japan’s case, they feel that in Japan, racism is a ruse that foreigners concoct. So if a bar says “No foreigners allowed” and you see that often, why would there be a need to have anti-discrimination laws. Asians always have the “if you are a nail sticking out, you get hammered back down again” and if Asians weren’t racist, why is there so much hatred and between the Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese? Why is there no unity? Why is it all 3 of you always talk smack about each other?

            I think people like you are suffering from paranoia and have a deep inferiority complex. China, Japan and South Korea, wouldn’t survive and can’t survive without the Western world buying their products, especially the US. And visa versa.

          • Reila90

            To this day, E.U and U.S always demonize Muslim. No doubt. If you track back at the history of European colonization, Christianity is one of key method they use before colonizing the region. Religion have important role to gain support from local and eventually disturb the social stability.

            Who told you that? dumb people? Asia definitely have major influence to world in the past. Such as philosophy, culture, & technology. Like gun powder which later use by European empire for colonizing.

            Do we have a constitutional racism in our history? No. Personal racism =/= constitutional racism. Personal racism exist everywhere on earth at same scale. As for “No foreigners allowed”, people should already know why this exist. You can search that keyword in YouTube, there’s a plenty explanation for it.

            The hate between Asians is pure childish. They have no rational reason for their hate. Unlike the European before the end of WW2, where Europe constantly in war for every decade & century. You should notice this lack of unity in Asia exist after western imperialism meddling in Asia. Also U.S existence can’t help either. U.S help build unity in Europe but not in Asia after WW2 purposely for U.S own benefit. U.S constantly meddling in Asian politic to make sure U.S contain them economically. U.S always don’t want Asian countries to get along. The recent example is how U.S behave over Japan China dispute in East China sea.

          • Zhan Lao

            And your Islam is so great? Look what it did to Persia…and of course, to India. And there was always war between our kingdoms. Long before the existence of America and the dominance of Western civilization.

          • Reila90

            Western Christianity always have fight with Islam since ancient time. Anything better about religion diversity is only in East Asia.

          • mr.wiener

            I’m predicting that the Muslim problem is going to turn around at bite China on the arse next. More muslim jihadis are finding common cause with their oppressed brothers and since China has that whole unfortunate Xinjiang thing happening ….do the math.

          • Chang Liu

            Maybe, maybe not. Xinjiang separatism comes from ethnic reasons not religious. There are lots of Chinese Muslims (non Uyghyr)who are well integrated. Ethnic conflicts like Kurds vs Turks are not the preserve of Global Jihadism (unless it is Sunnis vs Shia). Secondly so far I have only ever heard of Uyghur militants joining global Jihad and not Global Jihadists coming to Xinjiang. I doubt shit’s going down Iraq style.

          • mr.wiener

            Give it time, can you image the Chinese govt acting in a measured a rational way if and when this problem arrise? Jihadis don’t care about the rights and wrongs of the matter, they just want global jihad.

          • Chang Liu

            Against big ‘heroic’ target to match their deluded egos. Its like why most hackers don’t write virus for Macs because they don’t have enough market share, yet. I think also Global Jihadis, certainly bin Laden had very specific beef with US and that is the fact there are US soldiers on the Holyland. There are lots more reason why so much hate is directed at US. As long as China is perceived as a counter balance to American power which in reality it is not, I think it will be fine. The UK has much more to worry about.

          • Alain

            And Linux too.

          • Reila90

            Ha! you just hope. You knew Muslim only from TV. Muslim extremist main enemy is the only Jesus Christ and its people. Since Crusades era it always been like that.

          • mr.wiener

            Actually , I don’t hope. I just have a nasty degree of certainty. The trouble is with Chin’s rise is it will make them the next “GreAT sATAN” in some peoples eyes.

          • cb4242

            That is absolutely absurd! The reason why the “terrorist” muslims are demonized is because of their long standing Jihad and hatred they have NOT only the west, but all religions. Every country used religion as a way to justify their imperial conquests. Get over it that was how life was in those days. Seek, pillage, rage, confiscate and conquer, that is how the world ran, EVERY country and society has done it, even animals do it. Don’t make it seem like Asian society was completely impervious to it. In Japan and China people they had hundreds of years of struggle with their own indigenous people, I see it all the time, class and caste system, what the heck is that?

            Asia does have a lot of influence this is true, but if you at most patents in the world…in the US, technology…US, yes, Japan makes better cars electronics etc, but it is not for the most part innovative, it is technology that is mostly copied. Middle East is where math was invented.

            You don’t have constitutional racism, but you have RACISM, I live in Japan, been to China and Korea, sorry, but I can tell you as someone who is NOT white, Asians are by far more racist than Whites. And Thank you for making my argument for me, racism is everywhere, constitutional or NOT, HATE is HATE and people suffered, Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Gays, Muslims, Christians etc…it’s all the same and it’s all bad, get over it.

            The hate between Asians is pure childish, yes, I totally agree! And don’t give me that the reason why there is a racial and cultural divide in Asia was because of Western interference? There has been turmoil and strife in East Asians for a very, very, very long time!
            With 2 WW in Asia, and we still gave Japan money and helped rebuild the country, even after they brutally attacked us, even to this day, you guys can’t stand each other. Take for example the Senkaku Islands and Takashima Island, you guys almost went to war over this last year. The US did NOT get involved and you still bitch and moan? Look at South Korea, China and Japan, without our Capitalist SK would look like the North, Japan would be an imperialist nation and even China benefited to a point, many people are becoming richer, that is not by accident, we buy a ton of Chinese made products and that helped boost your economy.
            But you are very welcome.

          • Reila90

            No. What i see in western media often demonizing Muslim purposely to makes people think Muslim is bad. Not to differentiate between the bad ones and the good ones. But altogether. Stereotyping & over generalization. The fact you denied this obviousness is so perplexing.

            We all have racism. How if i tell you, i ever live in western countries and Whites are by far more racist than Asians? see? racism is everywhere. You can’t justify which is more racist just because you happen to experience it elsewhere.

            No it’s not. At least not whole Asia. We have Pax Sinica back there. The relation between China, Korea & Japan was so much better at that time.

            “The US did NOT get involved”
            LMAO are you live in a cave?

            No. We don’t even ask help from the west what we should do and what it is wrong. Thanks to western belligerent & addiction to colonize. A peaceful nations suddenly should pick side which they should choice. China & N.Korea in communist side and Japan & S.Korea in capitalist side. We don’t ask them to knock our door.

          • cb4242

            What are you talking about? The violence from Muslims against Jews and Christians is mind-blowing. The Coptic Christians in Egypt and Christians in Iran and other Muslims countries are persecuted everyday, hunted, attacked and often killed. I’m originally from L.A. We had a huge explosion of Russian Jews in the 90’s, we have the largest Jewish/Christian Iranian population leaving after the Ayatollah Khomeini took over. I never denied anything, you just see what you want to see. You have idiots in every religion, but radical Muslims are the ones that start threatening to hurt you or want to fight you if you don’t do as they say, they want and expect you to live and be like this and if you don’t then you are an infidel or anti-muslim. Now that is perplexing. Law abiding and rational Muslims co-exist in every country just fine.

            No, Whites are not far more racist, sorry, but as a minority myself, I have seen and lived through racism and without a doubt, Asians will beat any White person on their worst day. Bars that display signs “No foreigners” H.I.S. overcharging foreign customers on their ticket reservations. Apartment ads that say, “No foreigners allowed” Definitely treating people different because of race or class.

            The relation between Japan, Korea and China is totally frosty, when was the last time you read the news. They are not having a Kumbaya moment. Also living in Japan, I hear everyday, the crap that many Japanese say about Chinese and Koreans and vice versa. If you think it’s NOT, ask anyone here on China smack and NO the US was being a mediator, because if the US did get involved, then the Senkaku Islands would go back to Japan.

            And NO, I don’t live in a cave, do you?

            China used to get help from Russia, China had a buddy (lmao) relationship with the late Hugo Chavez and you should hate your fellow neighbor the Japanese that tried to colonize (almost succeeded) all of Asia. Peaceful? If China is so great, why are so many Chinese migrating to the US, Canada, Australia and NZ? But with a population of 2 Billion, how would you know? And if Capitalism is so bad, then close the Apple stores, Forever 21, Baskin Robbins, Abercrombie, Gap etc, etc, why have them?? They are western stores, you don’t need them. Give them back to us and you can keep that communist lifestyle, we didn’t force, the Government ALLOWED it.

          • Reila90

            Oh now i see your comment is generalizing Muslim is evil religion. You support US conduct in middle east too don’t you? I don’t want to debate religion here. I see all religions on earth as equal. Bad conduct and good conduct exist from the believer itself. Not the religion. Period.

            Duh. Again. Re-read my previous comment. “No foreigners allowed” never intended for racist at first place. And again. “You can’t justify which is more racist just because you happen to experience it elsewhere.” There.

            I assume you’re naive in US politic history. It’s obvious US will help anyone that has same enemy, China. US is good only when being a mediator between Japan and Korea over Dokdo island. But apparently not so good to China. US knew this recent dispute between China and Japan triggered by 1 right wing politician Ishihara Shintaro. Yet US can’t solve this problem fairly. Not like the island supposed to be China too. These cherry pick chess pieces played by the US politic is not new. Read history.

            I’m never said China is great and capitalism is bad. You just make things up on your own very bias. I don’t think you fathom what i’m trying to point out here.

          • cb4242

            I never said that Muslims are evil, you put that in your head. I was talking about RADICAL Islam, there is a huge difference. I support stomping out radical Islam, Yes, 100%! All religions are equal, except for RADICAL Islam. Bad conduct is going around innocent men, women and children and blowing yourself up or strapping a bomb to a child and making that child blow themselves up in the name and guise of religion, which is a complete farce. So thanks again for making my point, religion is fine, we are talking about the radicalization of the religion and the one that is causing ALL of the chaos within the last 10 years is the RADICAL Islam religion.

            Well, you can sugar coat it anyway you want, a Tiger never can change its stripes. So once again, you are wrong on that, racism in the World and particular in Asia is live and well.

            No, on the other hand, you are illiterate and a denier of world history and facts. I never said, the US was perfect unlike you that wants to paint Asia a racial utopia that was oblivious from greed, racism and corruption until the East was introduced to the West.
            Sad if it weren’t so outrageously funny. Again, the US, cannot and will not intervene with Takeshima or Sankaku, provided China doesn’t attack Japan physically, sorry that is written in the Japanese Constitution.
            Can’t blame the US for that, but nice try. US solved it, by staying out. If anyone is cherry picking it’s China. China didn’t give a rats ass about the Island for years and years until they found out it was a gold mine of natural resources and now all of a sudden China takes interest?? Second, the Island was purchased over a hundred years ago privately by a Japanese family and has been privately owned only until recently by Ishihara. So yes, I know history and read it, sadly, I can’t say the same for you.

            I make things up? by your rant, you seem to sound like you are a spawn of Cultural revisionist history. But don’t worry, I won’t hold it against you.

          • mr.wiener

            Apparently all we, the benighted few, who don’t share Reila’s views are dolts and worthy only of contempt. As she wisely says:
            “I don’t think you fathom what i’m trying to point out here.”

            First bloody thing I’ve agreed with her about all week

          • cb4242

            The problem is with Reila, he thinks, he knows more about history than the historians themselves, since we are NOT Asians, it is therefore impossible to understand Asian history or culture, because Reila wrote it and he lived through the centuries, wrote and thus can properly educate us dumb Westerners. Living in Japan, the average Japanese thinks that they completely innocent of any wrongdoing during the War, they had NO choice in bombing Pearl Harbor, they seem to forget about the UN and the US telling them not to go into Manchuria, but as a dumb westerner, what do I know. Japanese are the victims. That’s like Germany saying, it’s the allies fault for everything that happened and why the German people suffered and the Holocaust was a complete myth.
            lol, Reila.
            Too funny, seriously.

          • Reila90

            You never stated that “RADICAL” word. It’s unworthy if people hate Muslim just because they happen to be Christian. Just 2 cents.

            I never refute that racism is not exist in Asia. But i assume you think i thought that way. Then that poor comprehension of yours.

            US already intervened. Intervention in non military act. The island NOT supposed to be for China. If Ishihara never acted that way, peace still can be maintained at least until both countries have concordance to each other. Just like Dokdo. And that’s what DPJ want too. Now thanks to U.S. He doesn’t help anything at all. Only make it worser.

          • cb4242

            Of course, I stated it. WE ARE talking about radical Islam, don’t make this a muslim issue, it’s NOT. It’s about radical Islam.

            I think that way because I live in Asia, traveled throughout Asia, can’t deny what I see.

            Wrong, US was neutral doing that entire standoff. If NOT, then China would be in a really bad mood now. Peace will never be reached, because Japan legally and privately owns the Senkaku Islands, so that will never happen, you can count on that. China will just have to deal with it. If you want to thank anyone, thank Japan. That Island was a staging ground during WW2 for American forces and a vital position to form any kind of attack. This is another reason why Japan under NO circumstance wants China that close near its borders. Had Japan not done what it did in the first place we would not be here probably today. So because of Japan, America had to get involved. I think around 1975 the Islands were returned back to Japan and its rightful owner.

          • Reila90

            Well, i’m born and live here too. And i once visited western country. That’s why i think western countries has more amount of racism problems than in Asia. That’s my entire point.

            China already in bad mood. Well, slightly. US handling this problem very differently from Japan-Korea dispute back there. This is the reason why i think US have ulterior motive. US also heavily supplied many SEA countries with weapons. Because of.. China. US game in geopolitics isn’t new.

          • mr.wiener

            You “Once visited western country[s]”…..!?!
            Back up everyone, we have an expert here.

          • mr.wiener

            I believe the word “radical” was used previously by the bass cleff:
            “You have idiots in every religion, but radical Muslims are the ones that start threatening to hurt you or want to fight you if you don’t do as they say,”

            Naturally he should have capitalized this and put flashing lights around it so as not to hurt your feelings on behalf of Muslims everywhere.
            As to the issue of the Islands [which I won’t pretend to understand]
            are you saying it is America’s fault for not intervening in a military way?
            What’s the weather like on your planet?

          • Reila90

            What is this bump? You selling a sausage?

          • mr.wiener

            Not even if you had a gold-plated VJ sweety.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            what does this idiom mean? I dont understand.

          • Dr Sun

            “We don’t even ask help from the west what we should do and what it is wrong.”

            “Yet US can’t solve this problem fairly.”

            Which way do you want it Reila ?

          • Chang Liu

            I am not sure laughing at Christians is as a popular sport in China as it is in the UK or other European countries. In fact many Asian countries are hosts to Christianity’s biggest success story in recent times.

          • ScottLoar

            Read the history of Buddhism in Japan and the bloody warring between different sects, the compulsory orthodoxy of the Tokugawa shogunate, the segregation in feudal Japan and the continuing segregation of the Ainu (not allowed to fish salmon, their basic food, in their own homeland) and Burakumin (部落民); look at the severe social pressure to conform and “fit in” that all Japanese live under, the hierarchy in Japanese organizations that disallows innovation and creativity. Of course those not Japanese are segregated, ask the foreign wives of Japanese citizens or the Koreans forcibly brought to Japan during the Japanese colonial period and still denied rights as citizens.

            Why are you so dumb to all this common knowledge? What purpose does your ignorance serve other than as small comfort to your own shallow conceit?

          • Reila90

            At that time Buddhist monks wants to take over Japan’s politic. That’s why Oda eliminated them but not the religion. You think European feudalism any better? not. Every feudal has social hierarchy. Asia have racism just like in anywhere else. However, racism in Asia is never comparable to Western countries. And historically too.

            Anything about racism in western countries only got better after WW2. After receive hegemony over minority, people can act like an angel.

          • mr.wiener

            You….just….don’t….get it do you? Religious and imperial wars are bad ANYWHERE and nobody’s hands are clean, NOBODY’S , you Idjit!
            You can talk until the cows come home about how the greater Asian Co-prosperity Sphere would have been paradise on earth, but it is a moot point now, it didn’t happen and chances are it never will. Talking up Japan’s glorious future plans for the world just make you sound like a cartoon character out of “Pinky and the Brain”.

            Interestingly enough I once taught some Korean students here in Taiwan, one of the girls was reading a book during her break time. I asked her what it was called:
            “What a wonderful world it would have been if Japan had never existed”
            I don’t agree with this sentiment for an instant, but it does put some things in perspective.

          • Chang Liu

            LOL you are kidding right?

          • mr.wiener

            About the book? absolutely not. “loathing” doesn’t not even come close to how the Koreans feel about the Japanese, it is a deep viseral all encompassing hate they feel right down to their marrow.
            And that book wasn’t a piss take, it was a deep yurning for Japan’s extinction.

          • Chang Liu

            Was it a kiddie’s book or adult book?

          • mr.wiener

            Adult, definitely. Alternate history , but not satirical in any way.

          • Reila90

            Off course it never will. Or even close as E.U, will never happen in Asia if U.S still supplying weapons to them to fight each other. What the Asian countries should realize is they need to stop act pacifist and inferior. Because of their pacifism is what makes them despised, bullied and colonized by western world. I have no slight intention to attack anyone, but just pointing out what is fact with very rational explanation. How they’ll grasp the words is up to them.

          • mr.wiener

            is that sand you bury your head in room temperature or do you prefer to warm it a little first?

          • Reila90

            I’m not used to read idioms.

          • mr.wiener

            I’m suggesting you are burying your head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich to avoid looking at the thing you fear [truth]

            I do not fear an Asian century, I merely suspect it will never happen for the reasons you have so clearly illustrated: blndness. The petty hates between asians you mentioned will continue to happen so long as the Japanese will not honestly and wholeheartedly apologize to the peoples it persecuted during its war of “liberation” against the Europeans [it could have been a true war of liberation too if the Japanese had not been so cruel].

            The Chinese govt will continue to fan the flames of this hate in order to control their own people, other countries will do so too , to a lesser degree. But you are too bloody minded to unbend and say sorry. You play the victim of this tragedy ,but you are your own worst enemy..
            The European powers have had their time as dominate, but they can adapt and continue to thrive in the new world. You don’t seem to be able to copy this like you so successfully copied many things before.

          • Reila90

            Duh. I already explained this over and over again the real reason why Asian can’t get along. No need to explain this anymore. Because of western belligerent & addiction to colonize, there’s no more Pax Sinica. A peaceful nations suddenly should pick side which they should choice. China & N.Korea in communist side and Japan & S.Korea in capitalist side. You see.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            well you do make SOME good point, some are still ridiculous. Perhaps if you focus more on the now rather than the past, like soldiers station in Korea and Japan. but then, you will have to argue whether S. Korea and Japan will be able to handle it on their own once US leave. It is not such a bad idea if Asia were to unite, but it will never happen if East Asian are still at each other’s throat. To be honest I dont think East Asian will ever unite, it just seems impossible at current rate.

          • the other guy

            ” Asian countries should realize is they need to stop act pacifist and inferior.”

            That argument sounds a little too close to that of a netouyo or fènqīng, for that matter.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            No Asian will bow down to the Japanese imperialist, no matter how long you persist with these arguments and insist we all have a common enemy, that is western imperialist, while constantly smoke screening the eastern imperialist. Its an old strategy that no longer work.

            You fail your mission it seems, I believe the next step for you is seppuku. Immediately, please.

          • Reila90

            lol Your comprehension really baffle me. Did i ever say all Asian should bow down to Japanese imperialist? No. Who likes imperialist anyway. You just make things up on your own very bias. Prejudicism is eaten you up. Watch out!

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            No reila90 it is your own prejudice thats eating you up. You constantly deflect the Japanese downfall when pointed to you by directing the attention to the westerner instead. East Asian wont unite not because US is supplying them weapon, its because they still hate each other for the past. You obviously support the Japanese imperialist evidently from your past comment (changing your view now?), blaming the US for interfering in Asian affair and blaming them as the cause for dividing the asian, while failing to realise if they did not stop the Japanese during WW2, the rest of Asia will be in big trouble. In addition to this, the hate between East Asian is not as simple as you paint it to be. I do agree with you on one thing, that Asian should stop being a pacifist from the very beginning, that way the westerner and the easterner would never be able to colonized them, and Asian will have no need to unite with other Asian.

            “The hate between Asians is pure childish. They have no rational reason for their hate.”

            the Korean and Chinese will not agree.

            “You should notice this lack of unity in Asia exist after western imperialism meddling in Asia.”

            Asian did not get along even before western imperialism, so blaming it on them alone is stupid.

            basically you are deflecting the Japanese imperialist failure by focusing it to westerner. then you proceed by blaming Asian disunity also to westerner.

            So no reila90.

          • Reila90

            Do you read any Asian history? Do you ever see Asian countries rivalry to each other like today before 20th century? No. These rivalry between Asians exist after European countries disturb our societies. Very heavily westernization makes them self loathing of their own cultures & identity. Worshiping everything western instead being proud of themselves. And these phenomenon occurred in all across Asia. What is more bad is those westerner end up seeing Asian as inferior & laugh at us at their back. Sure not all westerners are like this. But most of them are.

            The U.S existence in Asia is only perpetuating the hate between Asians, not just supplying weapons but by threaten them economically too. Like how Taiwan and China. And also CIA involvement in China, Indonesia and India.

            I’m not glorifying WW2. But judging from historical perspective, it is evident that Japan imperialism is not comparable to Western imperialism. What big trouble do you mean? the “colored people” suffered more during and under Western imperialism era. Sure it’s better for people to have its own independence. But a poor countries like Philippines, Indonesia, & India, what they can do at that time?
            You want to wait until those white people hatched & multiplied in your land? it’s good if at least they assimilate with local cultures. But look America & Australia. The lands lost the native’s identity. The lands became the other “Europe”.

            “the Korean and Chinese will not agree.”
            They hate Japan because of their government told them. Not because the peoples own initiative. All the hates basically only rivalry. Not the same hate like those Aryan and Jews, white people and black people. Nor involvement in national sovereignty.

            “Asian did not get along even before western imperialism, so blaming it on them alone is stupid.”
            They do get along. Off course not whole Asia. The relation between China, Korea, and Japan was better back there.

          • Chang Liu

            That was because China was a peaceful hegemon who didn’t sought dominance over Japan (with exception of the Mongols before they where assimilated) and Korea by military conquest. The Pax Sinica. Japan however repeatedly tried to conquer its neighbours since the 16th century. China would have bore Japan no hate perhaps even begrudging envy (many early revolutionaries and reformers either were from Japan or advocated the Japanese style reforms) had it not invaded and committed some of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
            Before the Tokugawa Shogunate united Japan it had one of the most remarkably long lasting civil war in world history, almost un-interrupted strife and bloodshed.

          • Reila90

            But instead, Ming dynasty ended up taken over by the Machus tribe right? Which is a foreign empire non-Han ethnic. I think Han people already past its prime time after the last great empire, Song dynasty. If Toyotomi successfully conquered China back in 16th century, China would not end up backward compare to China under the Manchus. And then China wouldn’t bore hate to Japan just like China wouldn’t bore hate to Manchus today. Tho this just my personal assumption.

          • Chang Liu

            Sure but in terms of territory the Manchus did pretty good :). Their imperial style of architecture is garishly ugly though. Have you been to the Llama temple in Beijing? Yuk.

          • Reila90

            That’s the reason. Because Manchus and Mongols have no previous experience of settled civilization, that’s why China became backward. If you see old Japanese history, there’s a lot of evidence that Japanese have huge admiration toward Chinese civilization. So, revising China’s history seems unthinkable. Japan started to change during Edo period and especially during Meiji period. When they started to dig their own history in sake of their own identity as a nation. Whereas China already have its history since Han dynasty.

          • Chang Liu

            China doesn’t just give up its sovereignty without a fight. What also qualified Mongols and Manchus was because they won and Japan didn’t and not for lack of trying. Beyond that is pure pointless speculation. I think if wasn’t for the horrible bloody invasions Japan would have been genuinely loved by countries around SE Asia and be very influential instead of isolated. To quote Laozi sometimes the best cause of action is inaction.

          • Reila90

            Agree.

          • the other guy

            That is very interesting fact, seeing on how the early Manchus such as Nuarhachi used plenty of firepower to overthrow the Mings.

            Curious how things chance…

          • Chang Liu

            Actaully Nuarhachi was killed by Ming cannon fire. Another reason why the Manchus disdained firearms. The Qings wouldn’t have won if where not for the Ming general Wu Sanguai who opened the Great Wall for them as the Ming dynasty where already destroyed by peasant rebellion and he didn’t fancy joining the rebels.

            As nomads and fantastic horse riders the Manchus had no rival on the battlefield unless facing cannon fire and handheld firearms. Banning its civil usage severely crippled chances of successful insurgency.

          • the other guy

            There is no denying that Wu Sangui resulted a great asset to the Manchu & Eight Banners Army, but if you ever been to the Manchu Imperial palace in Shenyang you will see many decorations, Steles and other artwork showing the extensive use firearms from both sides. There is also an impressive collection of fire weapons used during the war against the Mings.

            My guess is that the nomad invaders recognized the value of fire weapons during the occupation and learned to fear them in subsequent generations.

            Any way, it was an interesting fact that I did not know… I ned to get my hands on Joseph “Needham’s Science and Civilisation in China”

          • Chang Liu

            Its a huge tome, I think I got my snippet from reading Guns Germs and Steel who referenced Needham’s work :). I would never really attempt to tackle it unless I had lots of spare time.

          • Chang Liu

            Thats the problem with history. Every-time a group was persecuted they were always up to no good. There is always a good excuse. I’d take that history (of the victors) with a huge pinch of salt.

          • Reila90

            Agree with that. I bet if the Nazi won back there, they’ll demonize what the Brits did to the natives. Just like Brits demonize what the Nazi did to the Jews.

          • mr.wiener

            The brits were no angels when it came to their colonial conquests, but seriously you think you can compare that to the holocaust? [in terms of the short time in which so many people were eliminated for no reason other than racial hatred].

            That is delusional

          • Alain

            Well said. And many former colonies/protectorates actually did not want the brits to leave,for fear things would fall back to being worse like or than before, believe it or not.

            Days after the announcement, the ruler of Abu Dhabi Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan,
            fearing vulnerability, tried to persuade the British to honour the
            protection treaties by providing the full costs of keeping the British
            Armed Forces in the Emirates. Not only did the British Labour government rebuff the offer, it did so in a way that offended the Emirati rulers.

            That is just one example from wikipedia. I do believe there was fear in India of what would happen and the navy stayed in Sri Lanka for sometime post independence.

            Thanks for your reply.

          • Chang Liu

            So what? When the Brits invaded Burma and Tibet (and other SE Asian countries) they asked the Qing Imperial court to come and kick them out. The people don’t care either way it was just a trick the elites play to hold on to power.

          • Alain

            To use a quote your people use: I know nothing about that, so I have no opinion on it. Not all countries did that though India feared a power struggle and divide between classes, and the trucial states feared civil unrest and seperation, it could be argued without the development council, the UAE as a country may not exist today. Just different points.

          • Chang Liu

            The underlying assumption was the Brits where a benign Colonist, however did you know that the Malays and Indonesians welcomed Japan so that they would be rid of British rule. In fact it was the local Chinese minority who wanted the Brits to stay.

          • Alain

            No, dear boy, no apologist. I apologize for nothing,no white mans burden here. You do seem to have asian mans burden though, am I right, hahaha/ I do seem to recall of hearing of the brits receiving a nice send off during the times of merdeka, so perhaps not as hated as you would think, my lad. Now chin up, your motherland needs you

          • Chang Liu

            Not much better than the Japanese then, typical. Actually this part of history was fuzzy to me because people don’t care not even Indians. I literally typed British + Famine + genocide in google and this little gem poped up. Made for interesting reading. I definitely didn’t know about it. Still does give you some perspective no? It did made me upset because of the easily preventable nature of it.

          • Guest

            To use your peoples quoted line, I don’t know and don’t care. What about rwanda? were you banging the tin then? What about the famines? Or qinghai kids with wooden classrooms, shut your yap, you hypocrite, and fix things in your own backyard instead of pointing fingers at us hairy whiteys.

          • Chang Liu

            Huh what? millions or Rwandans died as a result of Chinese policy? Care to share a link? and wooden classrooms are equivalent to genocide? Shoo, hairy troll…

          • Alain

            Shoo, my hole. You started this with I love Brits, BUT…..every country got bad history, you just seem to like singling out the brits for their wrongdoings.

          • Dr Sun

            What did the Brits ever do for us ?

            1. Education

            2. Law and order

            3. The telegraph

            4. Healthcare

            5.Roads

            6. Trains

            yes like I said, what did the Brits ever do for for us………

          • ScottLoar

            The Industrial Revolution. Constitutional government and rule of law. The first to abolish the institution of modern slavery. Public spaces for public enjoyment as well as public galleries. Our mother tongue become the lingua franca of the modern age. The advancement and popularization of scientific knowledge; e.g. cartography made public, not held as a state secret. Institutions for public welfare. Modern linguistics based on their study of Panini’s grammar; the fields of archaeology (and specific studies such as Egyptology, Sinology), anthropology, etc.

            In the case of India the Brits eradicated a robber class, the dacoits, that since independence has gradually returned to the countryside. The Brits offered Sanskritization, the study of the Sanskrit classics, or English education as Indians chose. The British trained an entire class of local bureaucrats in the management of a modern state and its leaders very much adopted British ideas of governance based on the impartiality of law and democratic rule.

          • Chang Liu

            This I CAN agree with because they were based on historical facts. Hope you see the difference Alain.

          • the other guy

            Where are you from, just out of curiosity.

          • Alain

            Well said. Won’t convince certain posters here though. I’d like to add a few more, first prototype of a computer (Manchester), the television (Baird), HTTP (Berners lee)….just a few off the top of my head.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Industrial revolution is JUNK, so do the treachery bitch move of selling opium to even off trade with a nation.

            Thinking on that line, drug-selling nations like the Myanmar junta are kinda ”right” to profit on drugs right?? they’re just following ideas from the ”civilized, first world” nation that invented the Industrial revolution [another SHIT] yes? ^_^

            Industrial Rev my JADE BEADS!! bring in the great wall any of these days!!

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Industrial revolution is junk, talk ’bout pure, stinky garbage!

            gimme the great wall or the walled cities like beijing,pingyao or nanjing any of these days instead of that

            polluting anti-traditional junk.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            And you call yourself a ‘chinese nationalist’ [or at least has the username of one that considered himself so] …

            Someone is forgetting things about opium, but maybe I am totally wrong and there was never ‘the opium war’ and the attempt to sell it to even off trade =)

          • Chang Liu

            Well lets just say all my British friends are staunchly anti-colonial, benefit of a great British liberal arts education at one of the top universities, which I am very proud of. I am singling out the wrongdoings as a counterbalance to you singling out the good parts. I’d say on balance there were good parts of British colonialism although your example are slim pickings. The Brits did Hong Kong proud for example how could you forget to mention that? India? on the whole, forget about it.

          • Alain

            Well I am staunchly pro colonial, vive la difference, I like to play devils advocate, the oil in water, the chalk to cheese so to speak. Anything that gets your blood boiling is good, now am I right or am I right? True, you are right about HK, although lets face it we should have left there long before 97 and focused on butter at home (welfare) and preserving and defending places like Cyprus bases, Gibraltar and Falklands, but that is just my opinion.

          • Chang Liu

            To be honest getting riled up about colonialism is a favourite liberal pastime. I am not even sure the emotions are genuine anymore because so much has been said already. I bet you have a thing for Maggie though, go on admit it.

          • Alain

            Maggie, not sure who you are on about. Listen my lad must crack on, but rest assured, I’ll be back swinging my right fist like a sledgehammer, gloves off, catch you unawares, give you a hard smack, all unexpected. Till then….avance toujours.

          • Alain

            You are wrong and misunderstand. You seem to hate the british, so I wont attempt reasoning with your kind.

          • Chang Liu

            LOL I love the Brits and I live in London. Notice the sources I quoted are the BBC and the Open University? The zeitgeist of the past decade has been a open and frank admission of the excesses of the colonial project, certainly in the broadsheets and number of books published on the subject. If you’ve been here you would have caught wind of it surely. Stating I hate Brits is like calling a German who apologises for the Nazis as German hating, totally absurd.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            yeah it was actually a party to celebrate the british leaving, they must have been quite angry to see the malay indian and chinese unite and party right in front of them haha. Too bad though, they should have more party, invite the british but dont offer them drinks just to see them annoyed a little (I bet australian and american would like to do this too if they could). Well on the serious note there is not much hatred because we wanted to gain independent through diplomacy, even after the ethnic unite as the requirement by the british, with further requirement that force them to deal with the malayan communist, they did so with diplomacy unlike the british. So they had no choice but to give the country back, seeing that we could handle thing peacefully and can unite. Almost fairy tale like. No point in killing and ruining the ending, might as well party. Hopefully it annoyed the british hahaha.

          • Alain

            My dear girl, it does not annoy me one jot. I take it we brits left the country in better shape than we found it. Now, for arguments sake you became a japanese communist vessel, what then? Also I detest mahathir, nothing personal mind. Good luck, and glad for your independence, but you should not be a commonwealth member, not if I was the british king. Why not ask the people of hawaii how they are faring? Good night ace,you know I am right, well I’m definitely not wrong, btw, KL people are friendly, alas you are not, hahaha

          • Chang Liu

            I recommend doing some fact finding, there many skeletons in the closet for the good ol’ British Empire I am afraid. Simple one would what was the percentage GDP of India at the time of British conquest and what it was when the Brits left. Give you a hint, it went from being one of the richest to one of the poorest country in the world. Call that benefiting the locals. hahaha
            I am guess facts are not your thing, in which case you are welcome to believe what ever you want, but the facts won’t change.

          • Alain

            Facts you say, dear boy, you see your kind are very good at glossing over facts from history when it suits them for their own agenda, but not very good when others quote them to you. India was in a state of division, one only needs to see the present day caste system, they were looking down on each other long before the brits gave them a nudge. Opinions won’t change, I bet you love mahathir, I know I am right.

          • Chang Liu

            You got it backwards again. The British were infamous for exploiting the elites and divides and rule. In fact the caste system survived intact during the British reign is a testament to their ‘commitment’ to the people. Major efforts were made to reform the caste system only occurred AFTER independence, ask any Indian historian or British historian for crying out loud.

          • mr.wiener

            I’m not agreeing with Alain here [if he calls me “dear boy” again I’ll punch the wall] , but I do have a favorite quote from General Charles Napier as regards the practice of Suti:

            “Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.”

            Love it,

          • Chang Liu

            Pretty cool! Sadly in quite a number of cases the widows jumped ‘willingly’.

          • mr.wiener

            But not all.
            I forget who said India was a country of mother lovers and women haters.

          • Alain

            I have nothing backwards,been around long enough to know how to kick the ball straight. Yeah, the Brits may have done that, but those rules DO NOT apply to societies which were already hierarchical in nature AND structure, before the Brits even turned up. You are talking about applying rules which were already broken to begin with. I won’t trifle over trifles as you seem to like to personally attack me, just for differing in opinion from you.

          • Chang Liu

            This is getting bizarre… accuse me of getting personal when my discussion is purely factual based? Coming from you who repeated said something alone the lines ‘asian man’s guilt’? What the hell is that anyway?

          • Dr Sun

            maybe he was referencing how Emperor after Emperor and the mandarins would let millions upon millions die of starvation and disease during famines, while they where living it up in the forbidden city.

          • Chang Liu

            Why would that be Asian’t man guilt them? Emperor’s guilt maybe.

          • Dr Sun

            no more than the actions of the East India co and the British aristocracy like Lord Lytton would be that of any Brit living today or of lance corporal Tommy Atkins (Bengal lancers) or Joe Smith who was labouring in a coal mine in Durham at the time.

          • Chang Liu

            What are you trying to say?

          • Alain

            Dr Sun is clocking on

          • Hongwu Emperor

            This is treasonous thought! enemies of the celestial empire, or meiji-era jap lovers think this way!!

            Or those who willingly loves to kiss the butt of foreigners, without ever thinking on protecting your nation, your tradition, your ancient ideas, your ancestor land from that lice that modernization represents!!!

            Only the dynasties should be allowed to rule china, not those westernized republics or commies!!

          • Alain

            Perhaps you can explain, riddle me this, do you like mahathir? Perfectly simple question you are incapable of answering, now am I right or not?

          • Chang Liu

            Who’s mahathir? Just googled him. No idea who he was. I am ignorant on Malaysia. Can you explain what an Asian man’s burden is then. Seem like you are incapable of answering either. At least in my case I didn’t know who the hell you are banging on about. You don’t have such luxury old boy, seeing as you introduced the term.

          • Guest

            Ah so know you are playing the denial game. Are you or are you not malaysian, perfect simple question my lad?

          • Chang Liu

            FUCK NO.

          • Alain

            Sorry that was as guest, I deigned to say you claim you dont know mahathir, and you love brits, yet you come out with drivel every time I dare post anything remotely pro colonial. Don’t think you would fare too well in many countries to be honest, if you don’t like people expressing opinions. Seeth tight, my lad.

          • Chang Liu

            I love opinions when they are informed not random drivel.

          • mr.wiener

            Mahatahir, was the Malaysian president who was always harping on about the whities did this , they jews did that. He called Ozzies the white trash of asia [true by the way] and talked about the rights and dignity of his fellow Malays [he was Indian]. He was the one who started the trend for putting the leader of opposition in jail for being a whoopsie every time it looked like he might win an election.
            I kinda miss him :)

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            Prime minister. We dont have president. I cant say I agree or disagree with him. I might get in trouble. During his reign there were people (of all race) who didnt like him. He is a little funny though. He do like the Japanese very much, trying to model us to be developed like them. Kinda like Reila90. Though some of his remarks are extreme. Well again I dont agree or disagree, just objectively writing. True neutral.

          • Chang Liu

            Lol sounds like bit of a twerp.

          • the other guy

            “My dear girl, it does not annoy me one jot. I take it we brits left the country in better shape than we found it.”

            Well, compared to other Colonial powers that is true, however only to some exempt. I find it very Ironic to justify all the crimes and excesses comited during colonial times as if being necessary for the “Great Civilizing Mission” I find it to be a anachronism. After all, we do live in a “post-colonial era” and like some one mentioned above, there is a lot of research being made on that topic. Almost every decent university has some sort of colonial & post colonial studies…

          • Chang Liu

            LOL the great civilising mission thats rich! They managed to civilise the crown jewels from those poor Indian savages who had no idea what its was worth, chuckles. Turning the subcontinent into a tea growing basket case because China refused to trade them tea at daylight robbery prices. Walk around the British Museum you will understand what the ‘civilising mission’ truly means teehee.

          • the other guy

            “LOL the great civilising mission thats rich!”

            Sadly , that term was used openly during the colonization of Africa. Everything that went there was excused as being part of the mission to civilize those primitive savages.

          • the other guy

            P.S Note my “” on the “Great Civilizing Mission” and you will see that I was being ironic.

            Basically what I was trying to point out is that most of the academic community has moved on and no longer justifies the greed and excesses of the Colonial Powers with the outdated rhetoric of “civilizing” the savages.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            I am only joking with you. Yes you are right, the British left it in a better shape and it was better than being a Japanese vessel.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            No, both are crap. And the drug dealer empire is a bunch of
            worthless douchebags also.

            I’m not defending the bloody jap occupation, but the british needed to gtfo of HK too. HK BELONGS TO THE QING DYNASTY WHICH RULED CHINA, therefore both the britains and the japs need to GET OUT. simple.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            I wrote strictly for Malaysia, not China. Of course they need to get out.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            You are right :)

          • Alain

            Indeed, and to be born British is to have won in the lottery of life, lest us never forget that.

          • Chang Liu

            Haha oh the sweet irony :).

          • Dr Sun

            “fairy tale like” really how do you explain The Indonesian conflict, Singapore’s exit from the Federation and the 13th may race riots of 1969 ?

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            Of course its not really a fairy tale, come on….yeah race riot. It was bound to happen after the independent because of the inequality. A new born multi-cultural country, it wont start with peace, since the citizens distrust each other. People letting off steam. I heard that it was a conspiracy to remove the prime minister. I think its the distrust, disunity and inequality A reminder to our people what could happen if there are division. Now we are trying to strengthen the unity and harmony further with a new program.

          • the other guy

            “Malays and Indonesians welcomed Japan so that they would be rid of
            British rule. In fact it was the local Chinese minority who wanted the
            Brits to stay.”

            In WW2 the Japanese had an Indian troops composed of patriots that wanted to get rid of the Brits, and the curious part is that after the war was over, they where received in India as heroes by the same people the fought against. This was possible because Indians did not see themselves as to be fighting for their country, instead the public perception was that of having their own die for the sake of a foreign power.

          • Chang Liu

            Interesting bit of history. I knew about Chinese Malays, they were afraid of ethnic violence once the Brits leave. And to judge from what happened subsequently they had every right to fear.

          • Reila90

            Well i’m not glorifying holocaust. But if you see history, there’s many war crimes done by the allies that simply ignored today. And these war crimes as bad as holocaust too. Even Japanese war crimes doesn’t get much attention from the U.S government.

          • Chang Liu

            YES YOU CAN! In terms of numbers, the Brits are responsible for far larger number of death. Hitler was inspired by British policies in India and wrote in Mein Kemf that Ukraine was to be Germany’s India.
            Read this:
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/82/a1934282.shtml
            and this:
            http://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/history/social-economic-history/listen-the-bengal-famine

          • mr.wiener

            You are comparing the the bloody-minded knee jerk reaction of the British to withdraw resources from the areas the Japanese were likely to invade with the cold blooded murder murder of 6 million people for no other reason than they were disliked.
            As horrible as the consequences in Bengal were, you can see the logic behind this stupid decision.
            The holocaust on the other hand, where was the profit in their action?
            Thank you for the timely reminder however that no one is on the side of the angels

          • Chang Liu

            A bloody-minded reaction based on total disregard for genocidal suffering. There is a reason that Hitler and many in the Nazi high command particular Hess were in reverence of the British empire.

          • the other guy

            Amritsar, any one? How is that any different than what happen in Ukraine ?

          • Hongwu Emperor

            UNFORTUNATELY due to HYPOCRISY many people do not give a damn about Bengal because they’re nearby India [so total disregard for people from those areas] for racist reasons.

            If same stuff was in europe, then the british would be demonized up until modern days LOL

          • mr.wiener

            tru dat,

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Say that to the millions upon millions native dead from colonization AND diseases carried by the colonizers during the ”age of sail” so to say…

            And tell that to the tribes and cultures wiped/destroyed out, by war/slavery/sickness/other reasons.

            This has the SAME level of wickedness and cruelty as the holocaust or another mass-murder in human history… ¬¬’

            Main diff was that during ww2 weapons were far more modern and the germans had greater ”killing” cappacity [technology,etc] when compared to 15th~19th century europeans.

            Instead of muskets and smallpox, they had machine guns and death camps with trains to ferry the innocents to their deaths.

          • mr.wiener

            ….And yet at the end the British folded their flags and retreated back to their cold rainy islands with hardly a whimper leaving behind in most cases good infastructure , education, medical etc….
            Think you the Japanese would have done this if they had won the war….? I’m not sure about that, maybe the better angels of Japanese society would have swiftly replaced the military men, but given that small inserections and resistance movements would no doubt have smoldered in China, Vietnam, Korea and in all probability India I’d predict more of the same with no thin veneer of “civil” behavior or free press to curb them, small and hypocritical as these things are,

          • Alain

            Well said my good man. I like to think the continuing banter between Aussies and Brits is a part of that legacy. Oddly enough, was poking about in one of the supermarkets in this smaller city in Guangdong I am currently in and found genuine imported ANZAC biscuits, I balked at the 168rmb for the tin, may not be many in it, but dear god was I tempted, crumbly coconutty goodness, hmmmmm…….

          • mr.wiener

            If you can find golden syrup or molasse you can make your own.

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            I never tried Anzac biscuits when I visited Australia even though it smells nice and its huge, because at the time i thought its fattening so better not eat it. Now I regret it, I can not find the biscuits anywhere else. Silly isnt it? Not just that biscuit… vegemite also.

          • the other guy

            “…And yet at the end the British folded their flags and retreated back to their cold rainy islands with hardly a whimper leaving behind in most cases good infastructure , education, medical etc….”

            True but they did not leave out of pure kindness in many cases they had to be “persuaded” to leave, like in India. In some other cases the withdrawal of Great Britain clearly served some ulterior motives, say British Guayana.

            Besides the periodical withdrawal of Colonial Powers is just part of the transition from Mercantilism to Capitalism, similar in many ways to the transition of slave economy to industrial economy.

          • mr.wiener

            I’d never suggest the’d do it out off the goodness of their hearts. Just that they would eventually leave with some prodding. Would the Japanese have done the same you think?

          • the other guy

            ” I’d never suggest the’d do it out off the goodness of their hearts. Just
            that they would eventually leave with some prodding. Would the Japanese
            have done the same you think?”

            Leave voluntary? No I do not think so… Leave infrastructure? yes they did, at least in Northeast they where came to stay, 14 years of occupation left behind factories, water dams, bridges, railroads, etc.. Some of those things are still used today.

            But my point is, one can not justify progress when the human cost is so high, and I think that this stands for both cases.

          • mr.wiener

            Agreed,
            Reila on the other seems to think Japanese co-prosperity sphere would have been just that.

          • Hongwu Emperor

            Both are completely useless trash.

            Between serial-rapists or drug dealers, the first obvious conclusion is that both are bad for society.

            And I don’t care about that shitty westernized stuff, the Grand Canal built from the days of the Qin up to the Ming is far superior than that infrastructure they built there!!

            And the Japanese were building your beloved ‘infrastructure’ also in occupied korea and taiwan, such as plumbing,trains,etc

            I don’t care since that is traitorous westernized act. only the Son of Heaven [and to korea the King] could determine if that is necessary or not, not some foreign douchebags like the Meiji-scum, or the opium selling empire.

          • BiggJ

            Set your time machine to 2013.lol

          • mr.wiener

            Ahh… the voice of sweet reason.

          • Dr Sun

            I bet they would demonize the Russians more.

          • person

            She must lament that the CCP took over.

          • Chang Liu

            I am not sure that would have been the case for most Chinese people. They had the mandate of the people and were seen as closer to the people and less corrupt compared to the KMT. How things quickly went south.

          • Terrik

            Absolutely, for people at the time. The nationalists were a pretty vicious bunch. My neighbor back in the states flew as part of the honor guard that escorted Chiang Kai-shek across the channel and he told me not a single pilot liked it. They all thought he was a brutal dictator.

          • Chang Liu

            Wow cool bit if history.

          • Alain

            ROT!

          • the other guy

            Have you read anything about Manchukuo?

            Many traditional Chinese shrines where burned to the ground and many Japanese Shinto shrines where build instead… The people from the Northeast where forced to pray to Japanese Kami during the occupation, not even the Puppet Emperor Pu-yi was exempt… A Shinto Shrine was build in the Imperial palace of Chang Chun, just by the imperial gardens.

            Japanese language was taught in school and Northeasters where segregated from the Japanese colones.

            Imperialism might not be sinonim with War, but War has certainly been the favorite tool for imperial expansionism.

          • Chang Liu

            Good point.

          • mr.wiener

            The Japanese army, Coming to your country to “respect’ you soon.

            Ah so, our asian imperialism is different to your imperialism, do not judge us by your standards.
            Okeydokey.

          • quasar

            It’s the Jews. Look it up.

          • donscarletti

            Look up Zhejiang Jiangsu campain (浙贛作戦). The Imperial Japanese army killed 250,000 Chinese civilians in retaliation for the deaths of 50 Japanese.
            Also the hundreds of thousands of Korean, Chinese, etc women systematically and repeatedly raped as part of the Japanese comfort station system until they died of abuse or sexually transmitted infections.

            Find some events in those 400 years that can be compared to the scale of what the Japanese did in those 10 years (16 million civilians dead) and maybe you’ll have something. Until then, I’ll just keep enjoying the anti-Japanese propaganda on CCTV every day.

          • anon101

            Reila90. then why did china build the great wall????? it wasnt for fun thats for sure….

          • Brett

            I implore you to watch the History Channel’s “Mankind: the story of all of us”. There isn’t much detail, but it covers just about everything this clusterfuck of an argument is touching.

            Asians and Europeans, Africans and South Americans, have all tried to expand their empires in the past. If people lived on Antarctica they would have tried it there, too. Stop trolling. I’m starting to think that you are Nanny Hiccups with how inflammatory all of your posts are.

          • Chang Liu

            Sure but not necessarily by the same means. Pax Sinica is very different from Pax Romana. To quote wikipedia
            “In the later imperial period, China became more inward looking rather than expansionist, only requiring tributary recognition for the most part from its smaller or less advanced neighbors. Chinese civilization expanded gradually from its ancient centers by a process of sinification which assimilated diverse ethnic groups into the emerging Han majority.”

          • Chang Liu

            Japan not comparable? Just that it was able to inflict more damage in a shorter period of time. thats true.

          • Chang Liu

            Why is that? Can you give a rational list of features of Japanese Imperialism that was distinct from Western Imperialism?

          • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

            go ahead tell us how much better Chang Liu (Chinese?) would have been if Japanese did win and the damnable US didnt interfere. I bet his whole family will like the answer.

          • Chang Liu

            I don’t think there is, thats why the question. I am still waiting for an answer.

        • Chris McKenna

          Also how do you think China came to be such a big country? They all got together in peace and love to share a common ideal? Or was it, like most countries, forged through war?

          • don mario

            lol

          • Chang Liu

            Not sure what your getting at? A lot of China’s expansive territory wasn’t gotten through war of conquest like Rome. It was by assimilating the conquerers. Both times this had happened was during foreign dynasties like Mongols with Yuan and Manchus with the Qing and consolidating those lands after their respective demise. Please don’t equate China’s history with Europe. They are really different.

          • mr.wiener

            Hmm. But everytime I ask 5000 unbroken years of years of civilization? [actually 4000 and change] I get the answer The mongols and the Qing are Chinese people, not foreigners.
            So are they or aren’t they. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

          • Chang Liu

            Thats why the assimilation was successful no? So they did have their cake and ate it almost literally.

          • mr.wiener

            Assimilation was a trick that worked for the Chinese until they came across a group of people that had a stick up their arses almost as big as theirs, ie: The English. If the Chinese could assimilate the English would they be Chinese too? I don’t think so.
            I agree though, that European and China’s history cannot be equated, everything changed with The first Emperor.

          • Chang Liu

            Yes it not a trick that can be pulled without limit.

          • Charles

            @Chang – have you ever read about how many Manchus were slaughtered at the end of the Qing Dynasty? This was not peaceful expansion by any stretch of the imagination. In addition, the early territories of the Qing and Yuan were all fought over numerous times.

          • Chang Liu

            Sure but it wasn’t territorial conquest either. At the end of Yuan there was also a slaughter fest but thats just end of Dynasty Shenanigans no?

          • the other guy

            “Not sure what your getting at? A lot of China’s expansive territory
            wasn’t gotten through war of conquest like Rome. It was by assimilating the conquerers.”

            That is a valid point, tho I remember you once something along the lines of there being nations that become states and states that become nations…

            Would you say then that the history of China is that of the Han people only?

          • Nick

            Rome at least did a better job of improving the conquered territories education and economy. While China…

          • Chris McKenna

            So you’re saying there was no violence or war involved in the creation of China? Interesting….

          • Chang Liu

            Did I say that really?

          • Chris McKenna

            Well did I say that China was formed in the same way as Europe? It’s amazing the number of people on here who think they are the only ones that have read any Chinese history. It might have it’s own flavor (where doesn’t), but the point is (in relation to the comment I was responding to) that there were plenty of wars in Chinese history and plenty of violence. Some of those were for the purpose of expansion (xinjiang) and just as many civil wars to keep people inline. Likewise, as someone else said, if you said China assimilated these cultures that would suggest that they’ve taken on as part of themselves, so to treat their history as not part of your own is also wrong. Likewise, to imply that Asians are some how less violent is at best a misreading of history and at worst just racism.

          • Chang Liu

            What makes you think suggesting different modus operanti means no violence was involved???? You don’t need war of conquest to inflict violence. What China lacks in outwardly violence it makes up plenty by violence internally. The most bloody civil wars pre modern times were in China. And Assimilation does not mean taking on the culture of the assimilated at all if it does it would be called symbiosis. Wrong on all accounts. Just give up dude.

          • joe economist

            china is too big, and its all idiots fault for listening to mao zedong and having 100 kids. supply demand, too much supply too little demand = low salary.

          • Dr Sun

            hang on, I saw this posted by Capt Obvious, then the name changed,
            Sock or what ?

        • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

          That’s not globalizing. That’s conquest.

        • Chang Liu

          I don’t think colonialism is the same as globalisation mate.

      • http://www.facebook.com/noah.altman Noah Altman

        Good question, who is responsible for globalization and markets and trade? Or did you mean the ideology of everywhere-else-is-better-than-here and everyone-else-is-better-than-us?

        • Chris McKenna

          I blame Adam Smith and the Scots.

          • http://www.facebook.com/noah.altman Noah Altman

            Me too. That old Scottish curmudgeon and his cronies put an end to those wonderful dark ages. The bastard.

      • xiaohouzi

        I don’t know… I meet Asians, mostly Chinese in just about every little corner of the world. Even small towns in the middle of nowhere, you can find Chinese owned restaurants. I think it’s kinda cool as long as they are friendly.

      • Chang Liu

        Maybe not promote but we are definitely one of the biggest beneficiaries of globalisation. Hope you don’t dispute that.

      • the other guy

        “True. But who promote the ideology of globalization at first place? not the Asians for sure.”

        Define globalization, please…

    • Germandude

      If you dare to say this in Europe, ESPECIALLY in Germany, you are put into the far right wing corner and your career (no matter if politics or business) is suddenly taking a completely different path. Believe me.

      • Rainer

        Agreed. Only thing Germans dare to say is “Auslander aus”.

    • Rainer

      A sort of white-only Chengguan team is needed for white mobster control.
      Only hope foreign immigrant workers with wrong mindset would behave like Chinese immmigrant workers in town, as Lincoln said all human being are equal.

      • Dr Sun

        Laowai should only be allowed to live in “Laowai town” designated gated district’s where they can run amok freely and live within a cultural bubble abroad .while watching Rugby and drinking copious amounts of beer in a “Pub” that serves cottage pie and local “fish girls”.

        • don mario

          and that place would be full to the brim of chinese girls.

          • Dr Sun

            as said the salt water girls would be there.

          • don mario

            what is a fish girl?

        • anon101

          LOL, are you angry that westerners like to spread out in all directions while when chinese go to another country they all live in one place in each city and call it china town?

          • don mario

            lol, its chinese logic? maybe that is why they built thames town, they hoped all the english people would congregate there as it works in the china towns abroad..

          • Chang Liu

            Saywhat? Thames town is entirely built for Chinese property speculation. In nowhere was it actually aimed at foreigners dipstick.

          • don mario

            no shit, its a joke

          • Chang Liu

            Oops you got me!

          • Chang Liu

            Chinatown are an anachronistic leftover from the 19th Century. It is for most part for the restaurant business and mostly devoid of actual migrants. In the UK the Chinese minority are the most geographically dispersed.

      • don mario

        or just use the police?

    • Dale

      Why are you assuming they are white people? I thought they just said foreigners?

      • ejownz6

        “According to reports, this well-known “bar street” used to be part
        of the French Concession in the past, and most of the people who visit
        there are usually European. Local residents living there complained that
        they have been putting up with the noise from the street for at least a
        year now.”

        Although if you go some places in Europe (Malmo, Paris, London) I may still be wrong in assuming they’re white.

    • Roman Empire

      A proverb: Each monkey on its own branch.

    • sendtodave

      “Another example that multiculturalism and diversity doesn’t work. ”

      Multiculturalism fails because it hasn’t overcome racism? I guess we should get rid of police, since we still have crime.

      No, the answer is pushing for more racial tolerance, not less.

  • El Puma R.

    In english you say “Party pooper”

    in Spanish we say “Agua fiestas” which means someone who throws water over your party.. something like that.

    China doesn’t know how to party. They should copy that from the Koreans too

    • YourSupremeCommander

      El caliente parti mi casa?

      • El Puma R.

        your house has a caliente party? ask Azn Gay Boi about that. Me?Not interested thanks =P

        • YourSupremeCommander

          He said your party was too gay for his taste. LOL

        • Kate

          You’re welcome to come to my party! I’m having a going away cook out today for when I leave for Korea next Monday. We have ballparks, hamburgers, chips n dip, cupcakes, potato salad, baked beans, cole slaw, all kinds of drinks, balloons, all kinds of toppings for hamburgers including bacon, and a big grill ^_^ I’m feeding a lot today but more the merrier. ♥♥♥♥

          • vincent

            Sounds delish…sigh

          • El Puma R.

            Thanks a lot, dear, I feel hungry already ! Though we just got back home and we’re having a really good time. I truly wish you the best in
            Korea and if things don’t go as planned remember there’s nothing wrong with making a step back. ♥♥♥♥ add me on facebook: Alex Sambrano

  • http://twitter.com/21tigermike Michael A. Robson

    Wait, so you mean Chinese throwing garbage out of 2nd story windows onto the street all this time… was a protest?! Amazing. 文明一大步 indeed!

    • slob

      I’m actually doubting this was in protest as they throw shit out the window all the time and it’s a known bar street so they would know that already. They expect everyone to hush down every night? Nope.jpg

      I was walking along to work one day and BANG right in front of me about 3 or 4 meters in front a huge bag of grape skins landed in front of me. It looked heavy enough to do some serious damage if it hit someone.

  • LOSERLAOWAISLOL

    haha next time dump boiling oil on these motherfucking losers.

    • TheDon

      Pray you are not there douchebag

    • Zappa Frank

      what’s you problem? you don’t have a girlfriend due laowai right? poor virgin.

      • BigCAD

        You cant blame him really, his mother did keep telling him that he was a precious snowflake, also that the over powering stench of BO and fenqing rantings are a real hit with the ladies.

  • http://picasaweb.google.com/kilroy238 Kilroy238

    Chinese people upset someone else is noisy?!?!?!? That’s a laugh I wish I had water for all the people yelling in their cell phones or just talking above what is needed in an elevator, on the bus or train and especially restaurants.

  • SammyZ

    it was just chinese holy water.. its a chinese tradition to splash holy water on the foreign devil, to wash away their lust for sexual encounters of chinese women or……. boys

    • mr.wiener

      Haha , nice one.
      It is foreign tradition to splash other kinds of fluids on Chinese women because their foreign lust for sexual encounters.
      Boys? does Shanghai have a district for that?

  • Ruaraidh

    Haha, Chinese people calling foreigners bad mannered and loud. Oh they’re serious…

  • Dr Sun

    Damn Laowai coming here with their bad manners and lack of decorum disturbing our pristine, peaceful and harmonious streets.

    • http://sinopathic.com/ terroir

      Also: PM 2.5.

      Is nothing sacred?

    • anon101

      if you dont like us, why do you speak our language?

      • mr.wiener

        uh.. it’s called sarcasm dude.

  • Reila90

    This isn’t new. We have “noisy foreigners” in Japan & Korea as well. Westerners generally boisterous & unmannered when they visit or live in foreign country. They like “WE’RE WESTERNER. WE DON’T NEED YOUR CULTURE!” kind attitude. The polite ones are only few tho.

    • Zappa Frank

      you’re just ipocrit, expect something from westerners that would never pretend by your own people. There’s a bar and obviously people drink and talk.. but if they are westeners than bad behavior, if are chinese it’s ok. westerners that you all like to critic so much are by far less racist than you..

      • Reila90

        No it’s not. You know why in Japan they put “No foreigner allowed” on bar and pub? because these foreigners use same behaviour like what they used to do back in their country. Picking up girls, speak only English, screaming when drunk, etc.. So this isn’t strictly to 1 ethnic only.

        • http://profiles.google.com/henryc4545 Henry C

          I agree with most of your comment, but I don’t see what is wrong with picking up girls. Is talking to girls you don’t know at a bar considered impolite in Japan? I mean, would it still be a problem if Japanese guys tried to pick up Japanese girls?

          • Reila90

            They do have “pick up girls” culture too but they just don’t do that in bar and pub. Specially after long hours work. Most peoples who went there are with their friends. So they don’t expect “new friend” to talk to them.

          • BigCAD

            The problem wirh picking up girls is Reila is undersexed and his rampant hardon for west bashing isn’t a hit with the ladies.

          • mr.wiener

            He was a she last time he posted, I’m a little confused.

          • ElfenLiedy

            The photo in Reila90 avatar is Yukio Mishima. He is a famous Japanese right wing nationalist during 60’s.

          • maja_ldm

            Mishima was something more then a right-wing nationalist. and since your nickname is taken from an anime maybe you should know better about his works. peace.

          • mr.wiener

            Thanks for the info :)

        • xiaohouzi

          I know what you mean. I’ve heard that in non-western bars and clubs, no one goes there looking for sex like they do in western bars and clubs. I’m glad i don’t have to go to such places. I can’t stand the noise, smoke and attitudes. Why would one want to pay for that?

        • don mario

          picking up girls is bad behaviour? as far as i knew the girl has to consent to be picked up first. and whats wrong with that? how are we supposed to meet one another? by paying for a boy or girls service at a host bar or made cafe….?

          speaking only english? maybe they are on holiday… or they dont know enough japanese to have a conversation yet? i dont really understand how this is grounds to not allow someone into a bar?

          i hope you are aware that most asian people who study overseas do not mingle with westerners, they stick within their own kind (for the most part) and they speak their own language. if you didnt allow someone in your bar for speaking a language other than english in the uk then you can expect to see them in court, and rightly so. you are making japan sound like a incredibly racist and bigoted country.

          the last point is fair enough, if someone is being loutish beyond reason that is the job of the owners the tell them to calm down or kick them out or whatever needs to be done… but i guess japanese just stick up racist sign posts instead of doing their jobs.

        • sendtodave

          “You know why in Japan they put “No foreigner allowed” on bar and pub?”

          Because they don’t like Koreans, Chinese, or Filipinos.

          To the Japanese, everyone else is a foreigner, not just Westerners.

    • http://500px.com/justinrjones whiskersthecat

      That’s exactly what I yelled when I arrived in China and a Chinese man asked me “would you like some of our culture?”

      • the ace of books

        He was referring, of course, to the yougurt he and his friends were holding.

        • http://sinopathic.com/ terroir

          WATCH! BAG! DVD! YOGHURT CULTURUE!

      • http://500px.com/justinrjones whiskersthecat

        Dang, a lot of people hating on this joke.

    • BigCAD

      But China has no culture, only an ignorant husk where it once stood. See Taiwan or HK for true Chinese culture.

      • ManofEarth

        hrhr / nother retard posting shit on this site… offense to human kind – be gone! ; )

        • don mario

          in denial.

    • Germandude

      Oh give me a break. Ever been to Europe? “We’re foreigners, we dispise your culture”, while making use of the social welfare system is just a given right.
      Granted, asian immigrants are majorly excluded from this. It’s more Northafrican states and especially middle eastern immigrants that are known for this attitude. Check out Berlin, Paris, Rome, Amsterdam and plenty of the other bigger cities. It’s like you are actually in Ankara, Istanbul or Teheran in certain districts of the cities.

      • Reila90

        Hmm.. Germans aren’t rude actually. I’m sorry. Usually the ones from English speaking countries only, like American, Brits, Australian. Most of them always think they own the world. Kind of “superior” attitude. Since i notice most of foreigners live in Asia are from English speaking countries, so i refer to them.

        • mr.wiener

          So your partner cheated on you with an American, a Brit and and An Australian? Enlightenment dawns.

        • Germandude

          Well Germany also has a lot of “black sheep” that I wouldn’t consider to be perfect examples of a nice person.
          However, apart from students, Germans usually prefer pubs than clubs. Drinking in a calm atmosphere, establishing “regular tables” is more common than going out for parties with loud music.

          • Chang Liu

            My god the Germans I meet in London try very hard to be rude, they are just not very good at it. I blame the German education system.

      • https://www.facebook.com/dinie.akhemu Gerhana

        it must be infuriating to have immigrants refuse to assimilate into the country they are in now, more so when the local will be viewed negatively when they express their annoyance.

        • Germandude

          The really tough thing in all this is the effort it takes not to fall for blatant generalizations.

    • don mario

      its true. i just dont see why a home front riot was needed to deal with it?

  • Frederic Brewer

    Wish there was a video to get an idea of the noise level

    • Red Scarf

      Its on youtube

      • Frederic Brewer

        thanks!

  • Showdaddy

    Can I dump water on the Chinese that shoot firecrackers and lay on their car horns at 3 a.m. near my home? Or on the people in the mahjiang room downstairs?

    • carmouflagger

      If you wanna appear on Chinasmack then YES!

    • narsfweasels

      No, but you can go three floors up to the window in the communal area and rain empty beer bottles down on them. They got the message eventually and the guys on the 15th floor got investigated for throwing said bottles.

      Turns out they were a gang of thieves and had been stealing from homes in the complex for a while. A good job well done.

  • Ruaraidh

    Living above something known of as a ‘bar street’ and complaining about noise… what?

    Actually at uni a club we used to go to had to close down one of its rooms because someone bought the flat above and started making noise complaints. They didn’t throw water over anyone though, which is just as well because the kind of place it was, it’d probably have been answered by a fair few stones and bottles.

  • Speedy_Cheese

    Very embarrassing. It is people like this who go into another country with no respect that make a bad name for all the rest of us travelling. Respect goes a long way wherever you roam. It must be unbelievably frustrating to have bars in a residential area. Whether it is in Shanghai, or in Toronto- or right outside my window. I don’t care who you are or where you’re from, if you are keeping me up all hours of the night on a regular basis, something will have to give.

    • anon101

      10pm…. how many fireworks do i hear going of at 1-2am… many many many times, at least once a week… im sure its not westerners letting them off at that time on a week day.

      • Speedy_Cheese

        In my post I said “I don’t care who you are or where you’re from, if you are keeping me up all hours of the night on a regular basis, something will have to give.” That also applies to anyone setting off fireworks outside my house at 1-2 am. I would react appropriately regardless of who is the culprit.

        • ScottLoar

          “I would react appropriately regardless of who is the culprit.”

          Bold talk and easy to say but, no, your reaction would be tempered by your experience of the place you’re at. If in Canada, or the US, or the West in general you could react regardless of the persons. If in China you can apply something to make the foreigners “give” and receive the support of your neighbors; if you try that on Chinese heads for, say, exploding firecrackers at 1-2 a.m. you’d initiate a riot that might even be featured in ChinaSmack. The consequences here towards foreigners and locals are not be the same and punishment would fall on you. You’re naive to expect otherwise.

          • Speedy_Cheese

            Very true! In Canada if someone makes trouble, your place of origin is not an issue. All are subject to penalization. Canada and US is not the same in how their police force reacts to citizens.
            There is only one exception to said rule…if you do anything to ruffle the feathers of someone with money around here (as in anywhere) there will be hell to pay. And if you are a trouble maker with money and you can afford bail, you can do anything short of murder.

  • Red Scarf

    Instead of blaming the foreigners, blame the Chinese owners of the bars who are trying to make a living. This problem can simply be solved if they forced the bars to close.

    • bprichard

      This development was a terrible idea in general. The upstairs neighbors are a bunch of elderly pensioners (like most of Shanghai), and it’s a narrow street with buildings on both sides. So it’s just a big echo chamber. And the insides of these bars are tiny, so overflow was inevitable.

      The whole idea of bar streets like this one is not a good one. I guess it’s easier to police, if you actually police it, which is not something likely to happen in Shanghai.

      And if you’re going to do it, it needs to be completely divorced from residential because the noise issue is inevitable. Singapore does just this, and it’s sterile and boring, but no one is bothered.

  • megantron

    having been on both sides of the situation (the obnoxious drunk on the street AND the sleep-deprived resident above), I find this hilarious and sympathize with the residents. Sure, calling the police is probably a more effective solution but cold water and curses won’t really hurt anyone. Some of the Chinese commenters are going too far though… It’s not really a matter of whether they’re foreigners or not –large crowds of inebriated partiers are obnoxious no matter what their nationality is.

    • ScottLoar

      Some years past Maoming South Road in Shanghai was closed down several times because the local youth were looking for fights and slapping down the police. Foreigners had largely abandoned the street by then, and the trouble came from locals.

  • B*tches, Leave

    Shanghai is one of the modern cities in the world and that’s why a lot of Chinese from provinces want to come here to find work. Foreigners walk around the streets of Shanghai and see these uncivilized, rude, ill-mannered simpletons and think that “Shanghai people” are like that. What follows is that the foreigners (especially Caucasians) subconsciously put themselve superior than Chinese. Most of these “laowai” that are on the street are losers and degenerates in their home countries, but here there’re considered Brad Pitts and of course they’ll thrive on that, putting themselve above the law, thinking that they’re some kind of royalty, disrespecting the common Chinese and treating everyone as service staff.

    • BigCAD

      I put it down to the education system. With the population constantly being reminded that they are weak via the sino victimhood culture and robbed of personality at an early age. How can they compete with Mike the college dropout with a promising career in DJing.

      • B*tches, Leave

        I like your comment. I agree with it.
        Bottom line – lack of education is the problem … it’s the reason of all that’s wrong in the world!

      • mr.wiener

        Sad but true.
        We need to start opening schools to tutor promising young asian men in how to cook [to impress girls], how not to dress like a Japanese metrosexual [and not be mistaken for a gay] and how to talk to women [and pick up].
        ……and rugby, lots of rugby.

        • Gay Azn Boi

          Uhmmm….what’s wrong with us gays? :/

          • BiggJ

            What’s right with you? lol

          • mr.wiener

            Absolutely nothing wrong with you, but I think a majority of men dressed like This:
            http://punjapit.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chinese-men-prove-bold-as-bras/men-in-bra/
            …is sending the wrong message

          • Gay Azn Boi

            Been spending a lot of time with men like those, wiener?

          • mr.wiener

            Used to have a hotdog shop in hong lo behind the red theatre, Gay district. Who’da thought I couldn’t make money selling sausages to queer as folk? :)

          • Ruaraidh

            They probably already had their fill of hot sausage.

      • pimpinbear

        to put sole responsibility on the education system alone is too convenient…i would say its 50% education and 50% genetics…we are still animals and sometimes behave as such. There are things outside our control, some can overcome that in their lifetime and others can not. Either way evolution works very slow, and in some cases even slower….education alone can not solve all problems in the short run, it requires that one generation to the other takes use of it, creating another generation of smarter, less selfish and less ignorant citizens…

        There are may more factors which are pre required to reach certain targets and improvements in peoples minds and societies…

    • ScottLoar

      “Putting themselves above the law, thinking that they’re some kind of royalty, disrespecting the common Chinese and treating everyone as service staff” describes the typical conduct of mainland Chinese towards their own people. Foreigners here are keenly aware that the laws and institutions are against them. Waiting with his Shanghainese wife and two young children in the taxi line at a Japanese hotel in Shanghai my close friend was passed over by the Chinese doorman. He asked why, and was met with a slap across the face. He backhanded the doorman, who then tried to take him down; a mistake on the doorman’s part. The result: my friend was fined to very much the amount that doorman wanted.

      Every foreigner in China knows that in any altercation or disagreement with a local Chinese they the foreigner will lose. We have not even the pretense of equal rights in mainland China.

      • vincent

        Well said!

      • Germandude

        100% correct and agreed. And keeping that in mind, I find those comments from Chinese that you can read so often, totally ignorant. Every time I read/hear that the government is favoring foreigners on legal matters or any kind of incident is as valuable as a fairytale.

        Just 2 weeks ago, I went into a fight on the soccer field for the first time as a Shanghainese wannabe-Superstar tried to foul me hard. Luckily, in the quarrel that occured, a Spanish-Chinese seperated me from that cunt and cleared my mind, saying: “You can beat him up now, win or lose the fight. Latest in front of the police you’ll lose”. Lucky me, cause this really made me cool down and leave this fucking spastic alone. Some fights are simply not worth to be fought.

        • narsfweasels

          You don’t happen to play in the ASAS League, do you?

          • Germandude

            No, just for fun with friends and some others. Why asking? Big incident again?

          • narsfweasels

            It happened as I was arriving at the stadium a few weeks back – some Chinese guy went for the knee of this rather large defender, it took a few people to separate them and the defender was booked for dissent. Mr “I’m China’s Answer to Messi” got away with nothing.

            I’ll be looking for a target-man, winger and defender again come September season, look me up on Cityweekend if you’ve got an interest.

          • Germandude

            Haha, ok. I am usually playing front left striker. Pretty tall and heavy, but not in the physical condition anymore that I was once in, meaning, I cannot run as long and fast as before (heavy knee injury 13 years ago, started smoking, no regular practice). I was a goalkeeper before though.

            I am pretty sure the Shanghainese wannabe-Superstar I was having the quarrel with won’t show up anymore because I told him if I ever play against him again, he can collect his legs from the parking lot, since he introduced the “no foul” rule himself.

          • narsfweasels

            You basically just described the German target man we’re losing (:p) – get in contact with me, yeah?

          • Germandude

            Can you write me a mail to gefr.mohnke@hotmail.com?
            Please confirm that you got the mail since I will delete it right afterwards to avoid spam.

          • narsfweasels

            Sent!

        • ScottLoar

          Your friend was right, you cannot win. Sports competitions and legal cases are the most flagrant examples of selective prejudice against the foreigner.

          • BiggJ

            I have to disagree, you can win. Just make sure the person you are up against has less money then you.The police will take your bribes. That is a fact.Just don’t get caught on a camera doing it. Other then that , you pretty can get away scott free.

        • Chang Liu

          If he is actually Shanghainese he will back down if shit really took off, thats my experience anyway.

        • Probotector

          I agree with that, the trouble is, after you back down, the Chinese see it as a victory as if to say “see these laowai are pussies”, when in reality your inaction was the smarter and nobler course of action. Nevertheless, the Chinese perception that we’re unwilling to fight emboldens them to give us more shit.

      • http://sinopathic.com/ terroir

        Let’s synthesize your comment and the comment before: in China, a system is in place that allows for subjugation and class-ism. Both Chinese and laowai abuse this system.

        But for either side to accuse the other side of getting preferential treatment is meaningless: if the system is unfair, then no one can get fair treatment.

        • ScottLoar

          I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to say, especially your remark that both Chinese and foreigners abuse this system that allows for subjugation and class-ism. But my point is quite clear, that in mainland China – and contrary to what most Chinese want to assume – foreigners enjoy no equal rights in China, and “in any altercation or disagreement with a local they the foreigner will lose”. Moreover, boorish public conduct (and I gave examples) is by far more commonplace among mainland Chinese than the foreigners they accuse.

          Foreigners receive unfair treatment under local law by selective application and interpretation of local law. Again, argue or file against a local and you will lose.

          • http://sinopathic.com/ terroir

            Foreigners don’t fit in the concept of China: being able to score chicks and jobs as English teachers are the same reasons that foreigners being frequent scapegoats – they’re not part of the system.

            Yes, this crosses the line of cultural and legal boundaries, but the effect is the same: Chinese culture have no place to properly incorporate the laowai into itself.

            You tell a sad tale and bring up equality for the poor laowai – sure. Yours is a cogent point. But I’m not talking about that.

            Laowai are beyond receiving equal rights. As such, the treatment received is both egregiously unfair – both favored and unfavored.

            The point isn’t that what you say is true or false – but to pull back the scope and see how far the rabbit hole goes down. The system is rotten to the core.

            So I’ll illustrate it this way: you are a decent guy. You also happen to be an expat in China. You try to do good. But, no matter what you do or how you choose, corruption and inequality follow you around.

            It isn’t you. So stop framing it as being all about you.

          • maja_ldm

            the simple fact of working as an English teacher automatically puts you in a more inequal context. same goes for meeting-sitters.
            every newcomer should consider this matter, do I want to live here without doing the slightest effort to integrate with the local culture?
            I see a lot of people just earning overpayed salaries and enclosing themselves in foreigners circles…

          • sendtodave

            ” Chinese culture have no place to properly incorporate the laowai into itself. Laowai are beyond receiving equal rights. As such, the treatment received is both egregiously unfair – both favored and unfavored.”

            Well put. The culture can only view laowai as guests, treated with courtesy, or unwanted.

            Is this true in any Asian country? I know people in Japan complain about always and forever being outsiders, too, sometimes. As do farangs in Thailand.

          • Chang Liu

            There are only a handful of countries in the world that can successfully accomodate foreigners and those have not done so without a long hard struggle. It is a bit early to tell don’t you think?

          • sendtodave

            No hurry, but I’d say this: Mopst Americans wouldn’t set foot in China: They feel it is beneath them.

            “The smoke, they spit, they steal, they shit in the streets!”

            So, it’s interesting. Many laowai come here BECAUSE they are the accepting types. They are willing to accept China’s faults as long as life is fun.

            When I told my coworkers that I was coming to China, the most frequent answer was “Why the hell would you do that? They shit in the streets!”

            I said “And I don’t care, I accept them.”

            And then, we get hit by a wall of “We don’t accept foreigners!”

            I’m not shitting in the street! But I’m willing to accept it. Would I be accepted if I did?

          • Chang Liu

            I think it depends on what kind of friends you make and which part of China you are going to. China is full of opportunities and there are still lots of gaps in its market. Wether people accept you does depend on how open minded people are. The general population probably won’t out of pure ignorance but that doesn’t you can’t surround yourself and have a great time with like minded friends. I have never witnessed shitting in the street? And I have been some third tier cities. Where do you get that from? Anyway good luck.

          • the other guy

            “I have never witnessed shitting in the street? And I have been some third tier cities. Where do you get that from? ”

            I think he means little children and how parents or grandparents encourage them to their business in openly. I have seen this allover the North East and even in Beijing.

          • Chang Liu

            I’ve seen pissing but not shitting. Maybe I’ve not been long enough. No scratch that. I’ve been in Beijing for a year at a time and still no sighting. I’ll keep an eye out next time :).

          • the other guy

            Saw it twice in BJ, once in the railway station and once outside the pink subway line.

          • Chang Liu

            Really? which one? There are 3 major stations.

          • the other guy

            The main one,”Beijing Station”other stations have a cardinal point to differentiate them…say “Beijing West”

          • the other guy

            “There are only a handful of countries in the world that can successfully
            accomodate foreigners and those have not done so without a long hard
            struggle. It is a bit early to tell don’t you think?”

            True, but China due too it’s long isolation is even more extreme this way. Some counties have created mechanisms to cope with outsiders, often due to a long history of trade or human migrations. They might not necessarily like them, but there is more often than not a place in the social order of things. Take for example “Spain” during middle ages, or to be more precise the city of Toledo before reign of Isabel the Catholic.

            Now, I know that China has not always been closed to the outside world and that during some dynasties they had plenty of contact with “outsiders” such as the Tang and early Ming dynasties or the foreign Yuan and Manchu dynasties. But the fact is that every period of openness has been fallowed by a even longer period of Isolation and historical revisionism and the reason for this is that foreigners have no place in the Confucian society. Outsiders have been viewed to be a threat to a Harmonious society.

            I do not mean to say that others civilizations treated foreigners fairly, but rather that foreigners had an a place in the scheme of things.

            The Chinese mindset, in my opinion does not have this peculiarity.

          • Chang Liu

            Fair points. Although I’d dispute your characterisation of the mindset on several fronts. China was relatively open before the Communists enforced a isolation until 1978. The problem was the isolation during that period was total!

            You forget in traditional confucian culture marriage and family are supreme. The number of interracial marriages are a sign that atitudes are changing.

            When China re-entered the world order people have been told for decades that foreigners are out to take advantage of us and for many Chinese I think the suspicion is still there but loosening.

            Secondly racism in the West eroded not because of Government action, in fact most government institutions such as the police remain staunchly ‘institutionally racist’ (Macpherson Report). It was the result of a vibrant civil society and generations of mixing and mingling + a liberal media did the job, however there remains pockets of deep seated racism such as the working class and people over a certain age. There is a joke in the UK that everyone has a racist grandparent, to a certain extent it is true and old habits die hard. In China there has only been 2 generation at best since the opening up and foreigner still accounts for a tiny minority of the population compared to most Western countries and emerging civil society has a tenuous relationship with the government at best.

            The recent economic downturn in the West have created many economic/opportunist migrants to come to China. Those with little respect for local culture and language is only going to exacerbate the problem in the short term.

          • the other guy

            I agree, but then again I am not arguing about fairness I am saying that Chinese just do not know what to do with us.

            And about racism in the west, I would not put so much emphasis on the media. In my opinion the great equalizer has been the economy. Like you said No law can stop discrimination, sure you can sanction it, but not stop it. The acceptance or at least tolerance of that “different other” has been due to relative long periods of stability and growth resulting in the expansion of a “bigger” middle class during the later halve of the 20th century.

          • Chang Liu

            Very true, although historically in the UK at least the working class have long been the most vocal racists but at the same time highest rate of interracial coupling also happened with them. Lots of contradiction when it comes to race.

          • Chang Liu

            I think in China rules are not strictly enforced on many fronts resulting in opportunists able to take advantage to the extent that it becomes a way of life. Foreigners and locals can both get aways with lots of shit if they wanna try. Thats the bottom line. If you are a strictly rule abiding citizen then good luck to you.

          • ScottLoar

            What you’ve said is not news to me. But for the third time:

            But my point is quite clear, that in mainland China – and contrary to
            what most Chinese want to assume – foreigners enjoy no equal rights in China, and “in any altercation or disagreement with a local they the
            foreigner will lose”. Moreover, boorish public conduct (and I gave
            examples) is by far more commonplace among mainland Chinese than the foreigners they accuse.

          • Chang Liu

            You have the stats to back that up? Or is it going by your own experience? The way you are stating it sounds like it is a fact which would have to be statistically significant rather then antidotal. Before that I will only hold your statement in contempt.

          • ScottLoar

            I reciprocate your contempt.

          • Chang Liu

            Oops yes you are right :). I just used the auto spell check and didn’t bother to check if the new one is correct. Still would be nice to have some stats before making a general statement like that.

          • the other guy

            “You have the stats to back that up? Or is it going by your own experience?”

            Where would anyone get the stats from? I do not think that there is any institution studying this subject…

            Subjective as it might bee, I would have to agree with ScottLoar. It is my general opinion that foreigners will loose most of the time.

          • Chang Liu

            Can you give me some examples. Maybe someone should raise the issue then. As far as I know civil liberties are not pies that fell out of the sky. Why should westerners assume they are the exception to the rule? People fought for it with blood and grit. Time to manup. I’d imagine this would be pretty good chat show material no? ScottLoar your Chinese is good, time for a TV appearance :).

          • the other guy

            “I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to say, especially your
            remark that both Chinese and foreigners abuse this system that allows for subjugation and class-ism.”

            I give you an example; where I live, there is a 5 stars hotel that servers free dinners to foreigners when Chinese VIPs are dining in there. My guess is that the owner believes that by having laowai they gain “face”in the eyes of the local officials and high profile businessmen.

            The catch is, of course, that they would only take “white people” most of the time, taking “black” people only when there is enough white people in the group to mask their presence. Asians, are without a doubt excluded from the deal.

            I remember one New Year’s Eve that me and some other friends where invited to go over there for dinner and my friends Korean GF was stooped by a very rude doorman from getting in. Immediately the entire group started arguing on the girls behalf and after a while of yelling the manager showed up saying that the girl would be allowed to dine upstairs only if she payed 50% of the total cost.

            After this me and part of my group left and never returned, but I know of many other foreigners that still go there on regular basis.

      • narsfweasels

        “Chinese are eager and alert for any problems in foreigners among them,
        and yet the news and number of real instances show problems with
        foreigners are rare and not at all like your prejudiced caricature.”

        Agree with you, but it suits the narrative – “China is on the rise, others are jealous, they will fight us, we will fight back”. It’s a horrible us vs them mentality.

        • zhouzhou

          it remind me a post on weibo , in Beijing a chinese guy took pic of a foreigner driver who did not let him cross the street and ask people to looking for the car… Like Chinese driver stop and let you cross the street… this is stuff i never understand at all. fight between to Chinese, Chinese are like ” its not our business, we dont know them” Foreign fighting a Chinese, you have the whole country yelling at the foreigner ” THIS IS CHINA AND OUR PEOPLE!!!!!!”.
          For me, sounds like, Chinese people can kill each others then…

      • the other guy

        “Foreigners here are keenly aware that the laws and institutions are against them.”

        You know, I would not consider myself one of the many laowai that are so viciously anti-china while at the same time living in some was better lives than in their own countries… BUT, I totally agree with you there.

    • Chris McKenna

      The way that some people behave when living in China is not particularly good, but there are also nice people who come here as well just to see the country and help out.

      I also don’t think it’s just the fault of the foreigners in China. Many Chinese assume what comes across as a servile attitude towards foreigners. I wonder if there is something primal in people that makes them then assume the role of pack leader (ie become an asshole)?

      • maja_ldm

        I wonder where this reaction is more common in the bigger or the smaller chinese cities…

    • Germandude

      You just gave a perfect example of the majority of the foreigners that live and hang around in the French Concession. Nothing more, nothing less.

    • radbab

      please not again this “Shanghainese are the better people” bullshit. As if you can blame everything on country folks. As if everyone who’s not from the big city is a rude simpleton. I so hate this stupid attitude. This attitude makes the “simpletons” look civilized in comparison.

  • lostalien

    call the cops

    • radbab

      This is China. The cops will arrive, do nothing and then start making noise themselves…

  • the ace of books

    You live above a bar street and complain about the noise? That’s like living next to a fireworks factory and complaining about the explosions…

    • Alphy

      The street didn’t used to have bars, it just pop up in the last few years.

    • narsfweasels

      To be fair, most of the bars on Yongkang are absolute crap, so no-one was expected to go there anyway.

      • maja_ldm

        cheap drinks?

    • SuperHappyCow

      I don’t think they would be setting off fireworks in…

      …nevermind.

  • cc

    Chinese complaining about noise!!! Now that’s an oxymoron if ever i’ve heard one

    • donkeykong

      Ironic

  • Bugs Bunny

    o

    deserve it!
    that small street is very cute and full of foreigners.
    i do not know why,just a simple street, and tiny small bars.nothing great,maybe most bars run by foreigners.

    once i walked by, a foreign guy extended his arm exactly the moment i passed and exactly on my breast,and he asked me very loud:are you ok? i was so embarrassed.
    and when i was there, an aged man always staring at me at the opposite cafe shop,with that kinda smile.

    • xiaohouzi

      Sounds a little creepy. Don’t think i would like it there.

      • Bugs Bunny

        maybe not creepy, still many foreigners like there, more for young people and not so young type. no stupid young foreign students,no old aged bald losers,no hookers. they mainly offer drinks. kinda clean at least, and run by french, they have a big circle in shanghai, that’s why.chinese do not go there.also kinda another reason,it’s mean but also true.

        the bar i like most is the one at the bond named the house of blues&jazz, but too expensive.every sip is money.and plus: this bar is good place for smart digger.

        • xiaohouzi

          You mean because it’s a French owned chain of bars, the local Chinese don’t want to go there? That’s a strange reason if it’s a good place to go. Plenty of Chinese go to Starbucks and it certainly isn’t a Chinese company. With a name like house of blues, i guess it’s got to be expensive with diggers and all. Still sounds creepy. Don’t think i would like it there.

          • Bugs Bunny

            you know nothing about people, i am sure your not good at dealing with people.
            Starbucks is cheap,bar is different, you can go to cafe alone but do not wanna go to a bar alone.if a bar full of foreigners, difficult for chinese to fit in.your not social smart, so stop here.
            what sounds great then, you tell me? social idiot.

          • xiaohouzi

            You got me. Despite having moved around a lot, i know very little about people and i don’t deal with them so well. Very few friends. I can understand how Chinese feel going into a place full of foreigners. I usually can’t do it either because I don’t feel so comfortable in most crowds. What should a person who is not socially smart to do? I walk around when the weather is good. Go hiking or to beaches. I like to eat out. Sorry, i’m such a social idiot.

          • Bugs Bunny

            your chinese?
            then just stay with family,much better than anyone else.

          • xiaohouzi

            I wouldn’t mind being Chinese. As long as i could find a place where i belong. I miss my family but where i come from, trust me, it’s no place for someone like me. I’m hated there. Thanks for your advice.

          • Bugs Bunny

            ?
            your black?
            or you did crime in your state?so you were kicked out…
            tell me, tell me…

          • xiaohouzi

            Hehe…no, no, no… i wasn’t kicked out of any country. Have you ever been somewhere you got the feeling you didn’t belong? I’m talking about being different in a place where being different is really looked down upon. If you don’t know how to be like others, you become a “social idiot” and then it’s better just to leave.

        • Alain

          Stereotyping enough eattot?

    • Alphy

      O_o.. hmm I don’t know how to respond to the arm thing… anyways

      Do you know if there are zoning in Shanghai for businesses? How come I see all these businesses and residential area mix up all the time? You are just asking for it when you expect both the business and residential area to be successful.

      I’ve seen an entire bar street moved because of noise issue in China, one good example is by the west lake area in Hangzhou. It does addresses old zoning issue, but this Yongkang road bar strip is relatively new and begs to question why they allowed the bars to even open there in the first place?

      • vincent

        That’s what I also don’t understand entertainment venues and residential areas don’t mix, however business areas and entertainment venues might be a better mix, get off at work around 5-6pm, go directly to a pub to unwind, sounds like a win win situation, no one works that late at night anyway.

        • Alphy

          Ya, they do have that in newer business complexes in bigger cities. They combine business buildings right by entertainment venues like Bars, KTV etc in one complex, though It is more of design by developers than government regulations.

          From what I read, Yangkang road have tons of residents that have lived there for many years before the bars even showed up. I wonder who got the bright idea for bars to open up there.

          • vincent

            Probably the owners haha, some people are just that inconsiderate. I can imagine how pissed off the residents are, an area that they have lived in for so long starts turning to shit, doubt they would be able to stomach it no matter how mild mannered they are.

        • bprichard

          It’s a pretty complicated situation. Mixed use zoning is best for livability, but it only works if rules are in place about hours of operation, noise levels, outdoor areas, etc.

          The alternative is Singapore with its bars connected to shopping malls and flat out bar streets with nothing else in them. This sequesters the trouble but creates the most sterile environment possible.

          Yongkang lu is the worst of both worlds. Concentration of bars positioned ideally to annoy residents.

      • Bugs Bunny

        we chinese really do not consider that much…
        i think people will begin to think about this point more.
        also ground for stores, up floors for living is very common.

  • Alexander

    Don’t open bars and clubs and then they can’t be doing noisy partying…… problem solved…….

    • xiaohouzi

      Too bad that won’t happen. Unfortunately for some of us, there is a big demand for bars and clubs and plenty of Chinese people willing to supply it. If you don’t like bars or clubs, do what i do and stay away from them. Don’t move into a home on such a street if you don’t like noise. Are the police likely to do anything when someone complains about noise on a bar street? I doubt it.

  • http://karmaeconomics.blogspot.com/ lavista4u

    I’m from Asia and only place, foreigners get respect is The Philippines, why do you have to suffer in lawless China, unsafe Thailand (road accidents, poison food, corrupt police) and too rigid Korea and japan.

    Philippines is the only place that i know off, where farangs are actually encouraged to party all night. Philippines is THE most westernized country in Asia. People are open, friendly and actually expect a foreigners to party all night.

    Don’t blame entire Asia on some backward countries. Go to places, that respects you.

    • mr.wiener

      Taiwan is good too, China lite.

      • ScottLoar

        Taiwan is good now too, but in the early 70’s Taiwan was like… like mainland China today with people staring, talking loudly about you in front of your face, refusing to believe you could understand any Chinese beyond “媽妳好?” (as they stupidly thought foreigners confused the grammar), ridiculing every aspect of your culture, person and assumed background. No, Taiwan in the early 70’s was not pleasant, not inviting, but a good training ground for understanding the Chinese and Mandarin; if you didn’t speak perfectly – and I mean speak with absolute perfect tonality using correct vocabulary – you would be dismissed with a wave of the hand. Going to school in Taiwan in the early 70’s was sometimes grim and never easy.

        • mr.wiener

          Dare I think there is hope for China then?

          • Germandude

            Yes, there is. As you know, hope dies last.

          • ScottLoar

            Hope springs eternal in the human breast.

            – Alexander Pope, and whom am I to argue against him?

        • xiaohouzi

          Chinese talk loudly about you in front of your face? Say it isn’t so. Maybe it’s a good thing i don’t understand Chinese so well. I don’t take too kindly to folks talking smack.

          • ScottLoar

            Not all comments are disparaging but… It was remarked by those attending that the Chinese regarded the curiosity of Lord Elgin’s entourage in the1850’s towards things Chinese – including attempts to understand the language – as arrogant presumption. Even now, when attending a forum on any subject Chinese like porcelains or history many Chinese will discount remarks by any but Chinese. Can you accept that expertise in, say, Victorian furniture, is not confined to the British?

            You can imagine your own feeling if, after capably speaking at length to a person in his own language, you are then asked if you can read and write. Chinese seem to have some difficulty in grasping that a person formally educated in Chinese is invariably literate in the language.

          • Chang Liu

            Actually Chinese as a language bears little relation between speaking and writing. It is entirely reasonable to ask you that. I am a fluent mandarin speaker but I can’t write without the aid of a computer.

          • ScottLoar

            Were you schooled in Chinese language at university level and above? Or, you understand and speak colloquial Mandarin because your parents spoke it at home? The two situations are not comparable.

            Again, “Chinese seem to have some difficulty in grasping that a person formally educated in Chinese is invariably literate in the language,” and that includes study in classical Chinese. That I write traditional characters is testament to my study in Taiwan and not genius.

          • Chang Liu

            My point was that you being fluent in the speaking of Mandarin does not necessitate everyone should automatically assume you are able to read and write the language. There is no point getting upset over nothing. Another thing was the person you spoke to university educated? I have known people who did China Studies (although he flunked it) in SOAS who didn’t learn the language properly.
            Take me for example my spoken and reading are good but hand writing is difficult. I did receive primary school education in China but had gone on to read the classics on my own. I’d say I have a rudimentary grasp of the language although there are so many new words since my time that sometimes it is daunting. I am glad you steeped in the language though. Lots of people only learn the basics these days.

          • ScottLoar

            In my entire 40+ years’ experience of speaking Mandarin only twice – twice – has a native speaker of Mandarin immediately grasped that I was educated in university in Chinese. (Once I was in the United Airlines office in Shanghai, and upon speaking with the girl at the counter she immediately said “你是中文系畢業的!”) Most assume I learned it from the streets, from my wife, or somehow absorbed it from Chinese people or that I work for the CIA or government. This assumption, mind you, is common to Chinese regardless of education, station, or work. I have met university students in mainland China surprised to know US universities offer Chinese language study.

            Vocabulary always outpaces us. One girl said that I speak like her father, meaning my phrasing dates to an earlier time. I tell mainland Chinese 我民國三七年出生; their reaction is always… cute.

          • Chang Liu

            When you studies Mandarin you must have been one of only handful in the 70s. There is a saying in China that a laowai who came in the 70s had a passion for the country.

        • maja_ldm

          may I ask where are you living right now?

          • ScottLoar

            I live in Shanghai half the time and in Malaysia the other half with frequent trips within Asia for business, and once a year to the US. And you?

          • maja

            I lived one year in Beijing, I visited other cities and I prefer here but I’m constantly reminded of Taiwan… maybe I should think more about it.

          • Alain

            Taiwan? Huntsman spiders in your apartment, which the locals will assure you are quite friendly as they are only out to eat cockroaches and harmless to people, but I guarantee the shock of seeing one on the ceiling in the morning or jumping at you off the stairwell as you walk down in the morning, or worse appearing out of nowhere in the bathroom, might kill you. And if they can eat cockroaches and small birds, they certainly can bite. Insane competition for jobs, higher living costs than China, and really snobbish local gals…marry one and well, you better earn well or be rich before. But go for it, you may like it, each to their own.

          • mr.wiener

            You only get a lot of those if you have a house near the hills, but yeah mate those things freak me out, they are bloody fast.
            The English teaching bubble burst a while back, but there are a lot of opportunities to open businesses here and the red tape is easier than back home.
            Snobby girls? wouldn’t know, I married the first one I met here and never regretted that. Folks are nice here and they don’t have a stick up their arses.

          • maja

            well, the English teaching bubble seems ripe to burst in mainland too, at least in my opinion. how long did it last in Taiwan, if I may ask? and what happened in the aftermath?

            also, by business opportunities, do you mean production, distribution or what?

          • maja

            btw, I don’t believe “that bubble” will indeed burst anytime soon, just the teaching conditions will likely became more and more… fit to those of a fast-food trade then to an educational activity.

          • mr.wiener

            We were up to our armpits in Newfies and Saffers awhile back, but the cram schools started going bust about 7-8 years ago, lack of numbers, people were having less kids.

            Lots of people doing restauranting now, as well as import export, but there are also people starting sports clinics for kids and other stuff I even know a guy who imports luxury goods for pets, strollers, sports drinks and the like.

          • maja

            well, it really sounds like Taiwan just reached its limit of generic foreigner workers. Me too, I know some people who came to mainland after learning mandarin there and I guess they wouldn’t have left if they could.

          • xiaohouzi

            There are still a lot of teaching jobs here in Qingdao but maybe now, most people think that teaching English in China is for losers, Hence the lack of English teachers here despite demand.

          • Alain

            Most, not all. Just last night I met a 24 year old scottish lad who loves it in China. Better than being unemployed or on the “dole” (welfare) you see? Yes, there is demand, but there are still those who prefer it to life in the USSA or EUSSR.

          • mr.wiener

            Why wouldn’t he? He comes from a country of alcoholic racists anyway [I’m kidding alright?]. Now he gets to live in a warmer climate , with women who will fawn over him and cheap booze and smokes. Hae’s i’ heav’n ye ken?
            I was just kidding about the alcoholic Scotts racist thing, but then a again I should know what I’m talking about, I’m an Ozzie :)

          • xiaohouzi

            Agreed. Where i come from, if you’re not lucky enough to have a job, you’re on the dole or selling meth. I don’t see what’s so wrong with supplying a demand for English teachers as long as one is making an effort. It seems very narrow-minded of people to assume that if you’re living in China, you’re an English teacher and a loser.

          • Alain

            Agreed, and who says you have to be an english teacher forever anyway? Get your celta/delta, or look for other opportunities. Worlds fastest growing economy, better home or away? hmmmmm

          • 5,000 years of uncivilization

            I teach only in China and right now, it’s better to be in China. But if the air quality continues to decrease, i may have to leave.

          • Alain

            Guesstimate? I have noticed its not as easy as before, but there is still demand.

          • Alain

            Thanks for the reply. Now then I never went to Taiwan mind, just going off hearsay dear lad. My only concern is would those taiwanese fragrant ladies see an english teacher as being a lazy toerag, because lets face it, teaching english is not a career, no pension involved, ergo, it deserves to be called a toerag profession. Now am I righr or am I right? Glad to hear you are enjoying it though

          • mr.wiener

            It was fun. I’ve done worse jobs for far less money and the money was insanely good 15 years ago. I’d tell you how much I was making , but you would weep tears of bitter envy.

          • Alain

            And so could I about the money in the gulf, don’t you see that comparing wiener sizes is silly? Anyway, good luck to you.

          • Alain

            Malaysia, that is a nice place, highlands, great food. Good for you my man!

  • philip lenczycki

    I live on Yongkang Lu and let’s be honest, who doesn’t want to toss sewer water on French people?

    • maja_ldm

      I feel your reasons.

    • mr.wiener

      They’d probably use it as cologne.

  • formershanghaires

    ahahaahha call the police, good luck having them do anything, most likely bribed by the bar owners them selves

  • vincent

    If they have been putting up with the noise for a year, I doubt it has anything to do with race, sometimes you just reach a breaking point. It has jack squat to do with multiculturalism, in the US you can lodge complaints about the noise and have the cops do something about it, but I guess in China cold water seems to be a more effective option than contacting the police haha

    • Alphy

      lol True that. Cops here are really just for mediation purposes when it comes to noise problem. i.e. Let you off some steam.

      One of my local friend here have a noisy neighbor who like to start singing on his KTV system on full blast after he get drunk home. They call the police 3 times straight one week, and each time the guy just turn back on the system after the police left. Finally the police say, it is probably more effective to call the residential management than to call them. I am guessing the 200rmb fines they gave didn’t really work?

  • Ben Shuker

    please..Chinese people are a lot more noisy and inconsiderate…pressing their car horns incessantly, start building renovations with hammers and drills at 6am, talking on their phones (and to each other) like they are 10 meters apart…and this is EVERYDAY.

  • willie miller

    Lets establish the facts first and find out who was making the noise. If it was romantic noise must have been French, if it was efficient noise must be Germans. If it was people singing Manchester United songs then they were definitely Asians.

  • Appalled@everything

    I lived above a small foot massage business in Shanghai once, on Xizang Nan Lu, near HuaiHai lu, before the road was widened and many little homes were demolished.

    They operated only at night, and in the day the workers used the massage seat/bed? to sleep on with the curtains drawn. This was their home I guess, and they had kids, babies, who lived in there with them, sleeping all day too.

    The noise at night drove me crazy, when not working, they stood outside the shop chatting, eating, drinking, playing cards, letting their kids play, all damn night long. I tried to reason with them, tried to explain, they did not care. Pot calling the kettle black is what Chinese do best.

    • 不要脸

      Yeah, playing cards and kids playing is totally as loud as a crowded bar.

      • Appalled@everything

        When one is sleeping and has work in the morning there is no difference.

      • Germandude

        Well, guess what. Here it is. My balcony is facing a street with many restaurants. In summer, people sit outside, eating, drinking and sometimes playing cards. Even without the excitement of a card game, the noise level is close to that of a crowded bar.
        Personally, I don’t have a problem with the noise, it’s actually entertaining to watch some drunk fella trying to catch a taxi during night (I am on the balcony smoking). The only thing that really annoys me is the occasional fire made to get rid of some waste.

  • Washington Bullets

    Oh no. People got wet because they were loud. Try living with gogo dancers, ugh.

  • Panda Banana

    to put sole responsibility on the education system alone is too convenient…i would say its 50% education and 50% genetics…we are still animals and sometimes behave as such. There are things outside our control, some can overcome that in their lifetime and others can not. Either way evolution works very slow, and in some cases even slower….education alone can not solve all problems in the short run, it requires that one generation to the other takes use of it, creating another generation of smarter, less selfish and less ignorant citizens…

    There are may more factors which are pre required to reach certain targets and improvements in peoples minds and societies…

    • NassimTaleb

      I would say the common Shina”men” is the cure to the world. Born to poison it’s peers, it’s driven by the greed for unneeded, contrary to the system of nature. though the natures anti-fragility will let the Shina’men’ eredicate the pest that plagued the planet for a few minutes related to it’s overall lifespan, called the humankind.

      Amen

  • moop

    so these people are angry about a BAR STREET being noisy at 10PM? of course the average mouth-breather will place their blame on the foreigners… why not dump water on the guys who RUN THE BARS THAT KEEP YOU UP EVERY NIGHT? it’s not like foreigners are just gathering in random places and being loud… oh right, thats what chinese people do ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

    • maja_ldm

      complaining to the people in charge? nahh, that was just a veiled message, Chinese culture has a lot to teach in terms of diplomacy :D

    • linette lee

      it’s moop the man. hello dear. :)

  • Paulee

    When i was living on that street in 2008 – 2009, this street was still a wet market with no bar, and residents were trashing their excrement out of the window directly into the street because they were too lazy to just go downstairs or trash them properly. Dumping water now is a good evolution!

  • MrT

    If it was me living there i would of been chucking buckets of piss out the window, fucking piss head foreigners.

  • Misiooo

    I wish I could splash some buckets of water (or better, acid) on these fake copies of Russian/Israeli fighter jets flying over Zhabei sometimes even around midnight on such a low altitude that triggers alarms in cars and mopeds alike.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gordon.gogodancer Gordon Gogodancer

    I’m sure Chinese people throwing water on other Chinese people wouldn’t have cause much talking on the internet but when foreigners are involved even in the most insignificant situations( and quite ironic in this particular case) then it’s just a good excuse for the Chinese to say…” If you don’t like Shina get out of Shina!!!” PATHETIC!

  • AlexTJ

    Water for noisy people is like bread for the birds. Keep walking. Nothing to see here.

    Problem will be when they throw bleach (next step for really noisy and stuborn people).

  • Fman

    Chinese in a Restaurant: STFU- Fucking loud… Chinese on the Phone: STFU- Fucking loud… Chinese In a movie Theater: STFU- Fucking loud… Chinese having a conversation: STFU- Fucking loud… The loudest race on earth: Chinese… The fuckers, start hammering and squawking at 7am and go until midnight! Then bitch about noise on a “Bar street” Really?? Fucking Retards, it is a Bar street, maybe move shit for brains.. If they had a clue, they wouldn’t know what to do with it.

    • sendtodave

      Nope. They lived there befor the bars came.

      The bars should have a cerfew, and their licenses yanked if they repeatedly break it.

      • Fman

        Makes sense… so why throw water on the “foreigners” I don’t throw water on the loud Chinaman in the restaurant (notice the rice fly out of their mouths like confetti at a wedding? Kinda gross), or the smoking Chinaman in the restaurant (sitting under the no smoking sign no less) or the nose picking china man in the restaurant (I gave that habit up at 5) or the misbehaved Chinese kid in the restaurant (5000 years of culture?), etc…. I tell you what, even if I lived there first, if a bar opened up next door, I would move if it drove me crazy…. As for the “Curfew” did you notice the time it happened? before 10pm… So… to me a reasonable curfew for a bar would be around 2am… if the locals are crying at 10pm… the curfew wont matter.

  • PALADIN

    I must agree, that foreigners have no business acting like a buch of annimals in country they visit…i would have dumped shit on them.

    And that goes for chinese people in North America as well. A lot of chinese people are very rude when they come to North America.

    When in Rome…do as the Romans do !
    paladin.typepad.com/blog/

    • sendtodave

      So, they should “sing” off-key very loudly and grab girl’s asses. Got it.

  • Marcel Thumpnut

    “I hate foreigners and everything they’ve ever contributed to society!” ~~ Sent via iPhone

    • radbab

      We just head home andt take away all the black Audis and iPads and iPhones. You’ll have a revolution going on next day when everyone wants their toys back ;)

  • KAMIKAZIPILOT

    I blame most of the problem on whoever allowed the bars to set up shop in a residential area. I don’t know the zoning codes in China or if they have any but I know in general Chinese cities are a little more haphazard than Western cities so I’m not surprised there are bars right below apartments. Pretty much anywhere there are bars there will be noise, it’s a given. And anywhere there are people disturbed in their residences by loud noises it will irritate them. Add foreigners to the mix only throws gasoline on the fire. I don’t know who’s right or wrong but I’m sure glad I don’t live on that street.

  • filabusta

    Come on that’s nothing. I’ve been outside of a bar one night when they threw a bottle of bleach out the window at us. Thankfully it only hit a car parked out front. My friend got a bottle to the head once.

  • ykdfnd6

    Kinda wish you had interviewed more people about this, because it actually started around 8 pm – the bars already close at 10pm, and they were within their rights to be open/have people out. Some of the residents who live above these bars moved in AFTER the bars started to open on this street (I happen to know it is the people who are most angry/throwing the most water), so they really have no excuse.

    Not to mention, this has been a problem before and things have been thrown (a glass baijiu bottle) that could seriously hurt people…..but do they get fined or a ticket from the police? No.

  • Rainer

    A white-only Chengguan team is needed for mobster control in town.
    Only hope foreign immigrant workers with wrong mindset are behaving like Chinese immmigrant workers, as Lincoln said all human being are equal.

    • ScottLoar

      Dear Rainer;

      Rather than make assumptions about other nationalities you should be talking to those who daily interact with different nationalities like bar tenders, service staff in hotels (room maids, counter staff, bell men), tourist guides, taxi drivers, prostitutes, waitresses, airline crews, and then you’ll come to a reality far removed from your preconceived idea. But you’re probably not looking for the truth, just taking the opportunity to dump stink on those you don’t like even while not understanding why you don’t like them.

      Also, Americans don’t object to the word “Yank”, we think it’s funny and dated.

    • Germandude

      Ah, I see you haven’t travelled much in your life.

    • sendtodave

      WHAT? I CAN’T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF HOW AWESOME I AM.

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