Appeals Judge Tells Li Tianyi He Doesn’t Care Whose Son He is

Li Tianyi holding a microphone for Sina Entertainment.

From NetEase & Sina:

Judge Educates Li Tianyi: Sentencing You to 10 Years in Prison Has Nothing to Do With Whose Son You Are

2013 November 27, Beijing First Intermediate People’s Court made its ruling in the appeal of the five-person rape case involving Li XX, rejecting the appeal and affirming the original sentence. This means Li XX is facing a 10 year prison term.

The reactions of the various defendants after the ruling differed. On the afternoon of November 27th, the defense lawyer of Young Wei, one of the defendants, said to this 21st Century Business Herald reporter that Young Wei and the his family are “extremely satisfied” with the ruling”, and that “this was within their expectations.”

As for whether or not Li XX’s side will appeal the second ruling that has been handed down? Li XX’s primary lawyer in the second trial Zhang Qihuai confirmed the position of appealing during an interview with this 21st Century Business Herald reporter on the night of November 27th. “As long as it is permitted by legal procedures, we will definitely continue [appealing].”

Zhang Qihuai sighed, the judgement of the second trial “was within our expectation for ruling, but outside of our expectations for term. By judging him guilty and sentencing him to 10 years, his individual sentence term is the sum of those for the three other minors and 2.5x that of Elder Wei, who is the same age as him. This sentencing is definitely mistaken.”

Li Tianyi's defense lawyer Zhang Qihuai.

Li Tianyi’s defense lawyer Zhang Qihuai.

Xinhua News reports that the court explained that Li XX was the instigator of the group crime and the primary perpetrator of violence, so his position and role is clearly greater than the other defendants, and he expressed no remorse. In view of him being a minor and student at the time of the crime, he was leniently punished in accordance with the law, and sentenced to a limited term of of imprisonment of 10 years.

November 19th, the second court hearing lasted 13 hours. An attorney for the defense claimed to this 21st Century Business Herald reporter that during the second trial, Li XX and Wang X and their new lawyers both believed that this was a case of prostitution and not rape, and therefore maintained a defense pleading innocence; whereas the defense lawyers for the other 3 defendants maintained a defense pleading leniency. “The defense strategies of the second trial were divided along the same lines as the first,” a defense lawyer who participated in the second trial told this paper’s reporter.

[…]

The court on the other hand says that during the trial, Li XX defended himself by saying that “he fell asleep not long after entering the room, and did not have any sexual relations with the victim.” In response, the court expressed that although was no semen belonging to Li XX detected on the victim’s underwear, the combination of the other defendants’ testimony and the victim’s statements and evidence clearly and resolutely prove the fact that Li XX was the first to have sexual relations with the victim.

Insiders familiar with the case disclosed that Li XX has continuously maintained that this case is just one of prostitution, not rape, and that he did not participate. During the second trial, Li XX claims the moment he entered the room where the incident occurred, he received a phone call from his mother Meng Ge, whereby he exited the room to answer, and “saw nothing nor participated in anything” upon returning”; whereas in the first trial, he had claimed that he was drunk and had fallen asleep. Zhang Qihuai explain that the call records clearly indicate that Li XX had answered three phone calls from his mother that night, and “every phone call lasted several minutes”, that he had exited “at least three times”, that this happened at different times with his claim of being “drunk” during the first trial, and therefore “there is no conflict nor ‘change in testimony'”

[…]

Previously the media reported that just before the second trial ended, Li XX had read aloud a self-written, 10-minute long “final statement”, and bowed 3 times. He said, “Is it just because I am Li Shuangjiang’s son? If I admitted to doing something I didn’t do just to reduce my sentence a few years, I would wrong my parents, and wrong my family’s reputation. Is admitting to doing something I didn’t do called having the proper attitude?”

Li Shuangjiang and Meng Ge on tv show in military uniforms.

Li Tianyi’s parents, Li Shuangjiang and Meng Ge.

One person who was present at the time recalls that Li XX’s expression was calm at the time. That person said to this reporter that during the court education/admonishment stage after the pronouncement of the sentence on November 27th, the judge went out of his way to say to Li XX who was present to hear the sentence: The passing of this kind of sentence has nothing to do with whose son you are.

However, from Zhang Qihuai’s perspective, in terms of legal proceedings, there is still a possibility for “reversing the verdict” through appeal. If this is a “war”, “the ‘war’ has just begun, and we have only slightly restored the truth, merely opening the hole [in the prosecution’s case] a bit. We are still waiting for the ultimate result.”

Comments from NetEase:

网易安徽省合肥市网友 ip:117.64.*.*:

A sentence of 10 years really has nothing to do with whose son you are. If your father hadn’t personally come out to take care of the matter when you had assaulted someone, who knows, you may have been in reeducation through labor for 2 years and what you’re facing today wouldn’t have happened at all. If your mother had severely taught you a lesson, made you confess guilt, proactively compensated the victim, and got the victim’s forgiveness, who knows, maybe you would’ve only been sentenced to 5 years max!

国安永远吹牛b [网易美国手机网友]:

Guess his father’s military rank isn’t high enough.

胡思不乱写 [网易广东省佛山市网友]:

Proper/Positive Education: When being interviewed by Xinhua News, Li Shuangjiang also once expressed: “Under our influence, our child cannot possibly learn wrong, because we everything we give him is proper/positive…”

0210927 [网易美国网友]:

Tianyi has helped them [take the brunt of public attention] for half a year, so who should take his place next? The Diaoyu Islands?

网易内蒙古锡林郭勒盟网友 ip:58.18.*.*:

Before the verdict was handed down in the first trial, the mainstream opinion on YellowEase [disparaging, pun-like nickname for NetEase] would’ve liked nothing better than sentencing him to death. After the first trial, a portion of the people leaned towards the sentence being too harsh, but there were still a large majority of people who continued to hurl abuse. Now that there is finally a conclusion, I wonder what direction the commentary will lean towards… When I commented, there were 16 replies, and honestly, of these 16 replies, what people are paying attention to/focusing on is no longer on the aspects of “lawful”, “minor”, “gang rape”, “morality”, etc. etc. etc. etc., but this one thing. In one post, you can tell that so-called netizens, so-called public opinion, is truly something that is unreliable…
But coming full circle, I spend most of my time using my mobile phone to relax rather than seriously read the news, and with regards to this matter, my personal opinion is that he should just be shot/executed. First, China has no lack for people. Second, China has no lack for lousy people. And then there is that saying that a person who is able to do this before they are even an adult, what will they be like in the future when they have money and power and want something to excite them…? After all, a person’s threshold for excitement will become higher and higher…
Another thing, I just finished drinking all night, just came out of the sauna, and after the sauna lady feigned ignorance for a long time, she finally agreed to wank me off, and I’m very thankful to her…

Comments from Sina:

信天游1207[河北衡水]

When the incident happened, if the Li family had proactively admitted fault to the victim, proactively compensated, and begged the victim for forgiveness, it wouldn’t be like this. If the Li family didn’t rely on force to bully others like this, didn’t spoil an unfilial son like this, proactively admitted guilt, assumed responsibility, took just 1/10th of the money they used to employ lawyers to placate the victim, the masses/public wouldn’t be so infuriated.
Through Li X’s statement, not only doesn’t he admit guilt and submit to the law, he insists on not repenting, and what more, traces of the Li family’s collusion can clearly be seen.

手机用户[河北邯郸]

One minute saying he had gone to sleep, the next minute saying he was answering a phone call, how can he be this dishonest. On this attitude/bearing alone, affirming the original sentence is completely appropriate.

青青河边云425608488[浙江绍兴]

If Meng Ge [Li Tianyi’s mother] and her legion didn’t attack, start rumors, smear, and slander the victim and thus arouse public anger, his fate wouldn’t be this wretched.

青青河边云425608488[浙江绍兴]

When they arrived at the Hubei Building, it was around 4am, and it was still dark at that time. Just what kind of emergency did Meng Ge have at that time to call so early? Just like saying he had played with his mobile phone and then went to sleep in the first trial, Li X was clearly lying again in the second trial.

髦吉吉[湖南长沙]

Li XX: The judgement has nothing to do with whose son you are, but the judgement coming 1 year late has something to do with whose son you are!

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  • xuedi

    i am sitting here on the sofa not because of my parents position…

    • My_honourable_lord

      You just beat me to it!

  • My_honourable_lord

    This pinky dudess just won’t disappear!

  • markus peg

    That T-shirt wont be pink by the time he comes out of prison…

  • TheSOP

    What is with that kid’s affinity for pink shirts? Him and his family represent a lot/all that is wrong with contemporary mainland Chinese society under the CCP.

  • markus peg

    Da Shan was quoted saying “Mr. Ding showed me a photo of Li Shuangjiang in the 1990s as a proud new father with his baby son. Li would have been almost 60 years old. With a sly smile on his face, Mr. Ding explained that Li was crazy about his new son and asked me what I thought of the picture.

    The photo was a close-up of Li Shuangjiang, holding an infant boy and planting a mock kiss on the baby’s penis.

    “As a Westerner, do you find that excessive?” Mr. Ding asked.

    “Yes,” I replied.

    “You see!” Mr. Ding turned to his wife. “Westerners think that is sexual abuse.”

    I didn’t think that it was abusive, I explained, just wrong. It
    looked like phallic worship. That in itself is a fairly common cultural
    phenomenon, but I didn’t think it was right for someone to be worshiping
    the phallus of their newborn son.
    Mr. Ding’s wife concluded that it was just a cultural difference.

    “I told you,” repeated Mr. Ding, “he’s crazy”. They both laughed.

    17 years later, it just seems sad.”

    from Da Shan’s blog: http://dashan.com/blog/culture/li-tianyi-his-father/

    • TheSOP

      Honestly it is quite ridiculous the way Chinese self eroticize themselves and their “mysterious” and “impossible to understand” culture. Its like they to the writings of the old Orientalists seriously and perceive themselves as possessing impenetrable cultural depth that “Western barbarians” simple cannot comprehend. Pure and utter rubbish. Cultural hubris and arrogance have a long linage in the “middle” kingdom unfortunately.

      • nqk123

        I read Chinese read/watch books/dramas once in a while, and its does contain elements you stated. As for real life, I think it varies on individual.

      • Germandude

        Whenever encountering the famous “You don’t understand Chinese culture” slogan, I agree with them and ask them to explain it to me. Nobody can. I then say: “Seems like you don’t understand your own culture”.

        Anybody coming up with that slogan loses any reputation immediately. It’s just bollocks.

        • Zappa Frank

          totally agree

        • TheSOP

          Good idea, sometimes the best strategy is to let them demonstrate for both their own and our observation the degree to which Chinese often rely on incoherent and flimsy Sino-centric cultural/moral platitudes to hold up their (mis)understanding of the world. The rapidity with which such constructions fall apart when exposed to deeper examination should give them reason to reflect.

          • Germandude

            Reflection? Reflection and taking responsibiliy for your actions are the reasons I am complaining about this country and culture. If people would actually take responsibility, I and most foreigners in China, wouldn’t need to be here.

            So on the one hand, this guarantees my job, on the other hand, it’s the most annoying part of China. At least to me.

          • Kai

            Whoa, dude, I think you’re exaggerating a bit too much there. You make it sound as if (most) foreigners “need” to be in China to “save” the Chinese from themselves (their irresponsibility or “culture” of irresponsibility). You can imagine how offensive that sounds, right? Imagine Han Chinese saying similar things about being in Tibet.

            It’s not hard to criticize many Chinese people or generalize Chinese society as not reflecting on itself or taking responsibility. After all, there’s plenty of Chinese people who say things that indicate they have no idea how hypocritical they sound or refuse to take responsibility for their own faults.

            Still, “most foreigners” are not in China against their will, and there’s a difference between Chinese society recognizing the advantages of foreign talent versus any idea of the Chinese not having any homegrown talent that “would actually take responsibility”. If China wasn’t capable of reflection or taking responsibility, it wouldn’t have reversed Mao’s policies, or decided it needed talent from foreigners that they feel is needed but lacking in its domestic workforce, right?

            I know you well enough to know you’re referring to very specific things but I think your frustration resulted in saying more than you intend and that’s not necessary. I think you can understand how what you said would be unfair to people of any country.

            I’m sad that many Chinese people are quick to assume foreigners can’t understand certain aspects of life in China, but presuming people wouldn’t understand something because of their background is hardly unique to Chinese people. How often have we seen people on cS dismiss Chinese people as hopelessly brainwashed and thus not worth explaining to or sincerely communicating with? Underpinning both phenomenon is usually a simple “can’t be bothered” attitude.

            Again, I hope you recognize that I’m trying to acknowledge your intended criticism but still communicate why I think what you said is unfair to anyone here who has some identification with China. There really isn’t an excuse for suggesting Chinese people categorically don’t take responsibility whereas foreigners do, and that’s why foreigners “need” to be in China.

          • Germandude

            No, I think you misunderstand me a bit on this. I am just refering to western companies that want to operate in China.
            Through cultural differences, many companies entering the Chinese market make mistakes. Be it, because they don’t understand that a “yes” with a smiling face can also mean a no, or be it because the workers here don’t understand the orders/wishes/expectations of the mother companies from abroad.
            The amount of Chinese that are so good in the native language of the mother company (except maybe the English speaking nations), are qualified AND trustworthy and loyal to their employers is extremely low. Add to that the differences on taking responsibilities and you see the problems many companies have.

            What I say has nothing to do with “foreigners saving the Chinese from themselves” (and I am a bit upset that you think that this was my meaning, after all you know a bit of me and my views by now). What I mean is: Because I do understand the market and the mentality here and know my home country’s mentality and culture, I, and most other foreigners as well, am the bridge between both.

            On a business scope, I don’t need to search a second for a coworker, when there is a benefit to gain. Contrary to that, if something is wrong, finding a person that admits errors is more difficult than finding water in the Sahara desert. All that, eventhough it is constantly made public to workers that admitting an error on time allows to minimize it, or fix it before consequences are taken and won’t lead to the worker being fired.

            Now I don’t think I need to bring up examples of this behaviour outside of business. They can be found on soccer fields, the daily traffic and numerous other instances, each second. Chinasmack is full of it. Just check the last couple of reports. As a matter of fact, take the Li Tianyi case.

          • Germandude

            Fuck it, I am sorry Kai, I wrote this reply after only reading the first paragraph of your reply to me.

            If you think I am in China against my will, I think you must be joking. Of course I am here because I still like it somehow. In fact, I have met a great number of nice people (Chinese family, friends, as well as foreign friends). I still think that despite all the bullshit I see here (and honestly, much is getting worse, racism primarily), China still remains mysterious and interesting.

            Your example of “If China wasn’t capable of reflection or taking responsibility, it wouldn’t have reversed Mao’s policies, or decided it needed talent from foreigners that they feel is needed but lacking in its domestic workforce” (BY THE WAY, COULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME THE COMMANT FOR QUOTING PROPERLY?) is interesting.

            I think taking responsibility is a matter of definition then. Admitting errors is the first step to gain respect. Take Germany and Japan after WW 2 up to now as examples. While Germany has admitted to its errors and is constantly renewing these apologies, Japan has yet to step up to reach its hand to China.
            But then again, who can blame Japan of not doing it when they see that the Chinese government itself treats its people like 2nd class humans with not standing to its history? Where is an official and I repeat that OFFICIAL apology by the Chinese government for “the great leap forward”? For its involvement in the Korean war? For its involvement in the Vietnam wars (wars! plural!). Where is the government reaching out a hand to fix disputes on territorial questions with Japan? India? How about Xinjiang and Tibet?
            As long as China is not strong enough to admit even the slightest of mistakes, China will fail to gain the hearts of the masses. Internally and especially externally.

            Last point:
            I don’t blame average-Wang to run the nationalistic path of retardation. I don’t blame a single Chinese citizen for its governmental shortages. What I blame them for (and yes, I go: everybody guilty until proven innocent, because experience has shown me that 90% of the people are rubbish. World-wide!) is a lack of collective initiative to question the status-quo. I know that access to independant information is a bit harder than elsewhere, but it’s certainly available and easy to reach. However, as soon as a reflection is to be obtained that could in the furthest question oneself’s world-views, 90% of the people give up.
            Now you know that I am also against a lot of the US policies and that I am not a big fan of America. However, except some weirdo reckneck, KKK wannabe or religious retard, I don’t need to hold the same world-view with an American. We can have different opinions and discuss without falling into nationalism and still leave the table heads up without having 100% convinced each other. Different views, different ancles on a topic. Peope know how to take it and are wiser afterwards.
            You know, like it or not, you are a great example for being of American culture with Chinese (Asian) background. Not the other way around.

          • Kai

            If you think I am in China against my will, I think you must be joking.

            No, that wasn’t what I was thinking or saying. What I said is that your original comment:

            If people would actually take responsibility, I and most foreigners in China, wouldn’t need to be here. [emphasis mine]

            …makes it sound like foreigners are in China against their will. Your sentence there sounds like foreigners “need to/have to” be in China because Chinese people won’t “take responsibility”.

            (BY THE WAY, COULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME THE COMMANT FOR QUOTING PROPERLY?)

            Use HTML blockquotes. {blockquote} quoted text {/blockquote} but replace the { } with .

            Where is an official and I repeat that OFFICIAL apology by the Chinese government for “the great leap forward”? For its involvement in the Korean war? For its involvement in the Vietnam wars (wars! plural!). Where is the government reaching out a hand to fix disputes on territorial questions with Japan? India? How about Xinjiang and Tibet?

            Yes, but none of these things has anything to do with whether or not Chinese people can engage in “reflection” and “take responsibility” or why, as you said, “most foreigners need to be in China.

            My objection was with your original statement juxtaposing Chinese people not taking responsibility with why you and most foreigner “need” to be in China.

            As long as China is not strong enough to admit even the slightest of mistakes, China will fail to gain the hearts of the masses. Internally and especially externally.

            I think China’s government does admit to mistakes but often obstinately refuses to in certain things. I agree this hinders its credibility both internally and externally. However, this wasn’t the apparent context of your initial comment.

            What I blame them for is a lack of collective initiative to question the status-quo.

            Okay, but are you saying if they did have a collective initiative to question the status-quo, then foreigners wouldn’t need to be in China?

            I think what you’re trying to express now doesn’t really relate to what you said earlier and my objection to what you said, so I’m a bit confused.

            However, as soon as a reflection is to be obtained that could in the furthest question oneself’s world-views, 90% of the people give up.

            I think a lot of Chinese people are overly sensitive and defensive about opinions from foreigners. There are some good sociological hypotheses for this, and I think most natives anywhere tend to be a bit more defensive when facing what they fear to be criticism from foreigners. There’s a definite insecurity at play.

            I also think most people are uncomfortable with having their worldview challenged and Chinese people are no exception. People clutch to their beliefs and tend to be suspicious of disagreement.

            Reflection is introspection and I think Chinese people definitely are capable of it as we’ve seen from so many comments on cS. They are not unable to criticize themselves and admit fault or take responsibility. They may be a lot more defensive and stubborn when a foreigner is involved pointing fingers and criticizing, however, but I think this is a pretty common human reaction seen in all countries. With cS, you have examples from kB, jC, iB, and rS.

            My opinion is that when a conversation breaks down between a foreigner and a Chinese person, or when a Chinese person trots out the “you don’t understand Chinese culture” response, a lot of the time it is because the Chinese person is too intellectually lazy to explain or otherwise continue the conversation. A lot of the time, it is because the Chinese person is being dismissive of a foreigner. A lot of the time, the Chinese person feels the foreigner is being judgemental, unfairly critial, or otherwise antagonistic and they just don’t want to bother. I’ve witnessed all three types and many other variations, but let me be clear: A lot of the time, that line is indeed just utter bullshit and the person saying it is being an asshole.

            That’s annoying, but again, I don’t see how that explains your comment:

            If people would actually take responsibility, I and most foreigners in China, wouldn’t need to be here. [emphasis mine]

            Your juxtaposition of disagreement with Chines vs. disagreement with Americans is confounded by a lot of factors. For example, I’m quite certain you are better able to communicate with Americans than Chinese due to language barrier. This can’t be underestimated because things like tone and nuance are really important. Another thing is cultural context and background. You as a German have a lot more shared cultural context and background with an American than a Chinese person. Not one of these three people should be incapable of understanding the other, but having a more similar cultural background makes a lot of things easier to communicate accurately and effectively. These things greatly influence how well you guys can communicate different opinions and discuss them without falling into nationalism and still leave the table heads up without having 100% convinced the other.

            I understand you to be saying you feel many Chinese people fall into nationalism in discussions and can’t leave the table heads up. I’m just saying there are a lot of factors that make it harder between you and a Chinese person vs. you and an American, and that not all of these factors are the fault of the Chinese person. Sometimes it’s just hard to have complicated nuanced discussions across different languages and cultural contexts.

            I’m sure a lot of people think I’m “making excuses” for Chinese people but I just think if people conclude they can’t communicate rationally and civilly with Chinese people because of some bad past experiences, they’ll stop trying, and both sides end up misunderstanding each other.

          • Germandude

            Sorry for the late reply, but here it is:

            Okay, but are you saying if they did have a collective initiative to question the status-quo, then foreigners wouldn’t need to be in China?

            I hope that quoting thing works here… What I mean is: If people would be at the stage of questioning the status-quo, show initiative in facing and solving problems and would not constantly fall back into the past ideas of “let it just roll”, then many foreigners wouldn’t have to be here.

            Free thinking can only be achieved if it’s allowed, encouraged and save to be practiced.

            You seem to have a problem with this sentence of mine:

            “If people would actually take responsibility, I and most foreigners in China, wouldn’t need to be here.”

            I thought I explained the meaning, but I happily do it again. Foreigners in most companies here have managing position because they are used to take responsibilities for their actions and for the actions of their staff. They don’t try to hide it, but to solve it. They also need to be in China as a bridge, because the company wants someone in the new market 24/7 that can solve problems at the time they occur (remember: time difference between China and the home country). Management abroad (outside China) prefers somebody that is loyal, understands the home country’s and company’s culture, business values etc. Eventhough you have a Chinese that speaks perfect (in this case) German, has lived in GER and knows the country’s culture, company’s fear where the loyalties of that person lay. And here we come back to Chinese culture: Patriotism, critical thinking, individualism, collectivism.

            So, the reason why foreigners still NEED to be here.

            I think that you initially understood my post as “I need to be here and can’t leave”, which should now be obvious that that’s not what I meant.

          • Kai

            No worries, this is the first time I’m wading into cS comments since like 4 days ago, and I haven’t been reading any cS comments except replies to me since like 6 days ago. Trying to maintain my sanity.

            I initially understood your post as “If people would actually take responsibility, I and most foreigners in China, wouldn’t need to be here.”

            The implications of that statement were broad and I explained them above. I suspected you didn’t intend it to be so broad and said so above as well.

            The reason I felt it was saying more than I suspected you to intend is because you didn’t say anything to establish this context you have now clarified: “Foreigners in most companies here have managing position…”

            Neither POS nor you had previously established a context of the role of the foreigner in an international business/corporate environment. As far as I can tell, you guys were talking about a general context. In a general context, your comment quoted above has far-reaching implications suggesting foreigners in general need to be in China due to a general shortcoming in Chinese society/culture which, I hope you recognize, is a pretty offensive thing to say in pretty much any country. It’s like Chinese people saying they need to be in Tibet.

            If you had established the context that in international business, many multinational companies bring in expats to manage their businesses in China because they need an intermediary that they can act as a bridge between the local workforce and headquarters due to linguistic and cultural differences, I wouldn’t have thought twice about what you were saying because it is clear and specific. I agree completely that many companies need or feel more comfortable bringing in expats to manage their operations in China because local talent doesn’t meet their needs.

            So again, the thing is, that context wasn’t established and I need you to understand that’s why I responded the way I did. I need you to review the conversation and acknowledge that I couldn’t have possibly known you were referring specifically to a multinational corporate context when you posted this comment. Hopefully, you’ll also acknowledge that your comment absent that context could easily say WAY more than what you now clarify as intending to say. You feel I misunderstood you, and I suspected I did, but I need you to understand how and why I misunderstood you is related to how you wrote your comment.

            There’s a difference between “If Chinese people could be responsible and reflect, most foreigners wouldn’t need to be here” and “Many foreigners are needed in China because their companies overseas need them as an intermediary between management and local operations”.

          • Germandude

            Yes, without the context my comment is a bit too harsh, I agree on that.

          • Kai

            Cheers, love you too. Just wanted to make sure the misunderstanding was understood by both of us and cleared up!

          • Paul Schoe

            Yeah Kai, I understand your comments and, just like Germandude, I agree that the comment should not apply to “all” Chinese, but you narrow it down too much.

            It is my experience that (most) Chinese people will do everything they can to stay away from taking responsibility. I understand the system:
            a) In China accidents don’t happen, when something happens, it has to be somebody’s fault.
            b) In China that somebody needs to be punished (often fired). (there is no philosophy of ‘lessons learned’).
            c) most jobs are stable, unless you van be blamed for something
            d) therefore nobody wants to take any responsibility

            This circle is not just in companies but i find it in many places. And it hinders the development of China as not taking risks, implies not doing something new, which results in limited progress.

            So, I do feel that Germandude’s remark reflects to a much broader symptom and attitude then only in communication with International headoffices.

          • Germandude

            The lowest denominator would be the “losing face mentality”. And this one can be found anywhere. But it’s not why foreigners are here to teach that this mentality is wrong, what I meant to say is, is that this is the reason foreigners are working here as it is harmful for and in business.
            We are actually nit-picking on details here now because kai assumed that I meant EVERY CHINESE with this sentence:

            “”If Chinese people could be responsible and reflect, most foreigners wouldn’t need to be here””

            Which is not true. There are many exceptions. But the general outline of Chinese people avoiding to take responsibilities of their actions is still present. It’s just not that this is the reason why foreigners are here, or the reason why foreigners HAVE to be here.

            God, this is getting complicated. I agree with your points. It’s just the way it is and I am not holding that against the average person here.

          • Kai

            Yikes, I did not assume you meant “every chinese” in that sentence at all. I thought we had cleared this up but maybe not. Instead of repeating myself, I’ll just refer you to my response to Paul (specifically: “The White Man’s Burden”).

          • Germandude

            I understand that as well. However, I thought both were the issue with you, thus my try to explain my meaning not to cause further misunderstanding.

            White man’s burden even sounds pretty racist if you ask me…

          • Kai

            Okay, cool. Heh, if anything, I took issue with you suggesting “most” foreigners than any suggestion of “all Chinese”.

          • Kai

            Actually, to be fair, I wasn’t narrowing it down. I was just confirming to Germandude that I understand the context he subsequently added to clarify what his comment was referring to. I think in my initial reply, I quite fairly acknowledged:

            It’s not hard to criticize many Chinese people or generalize Chinese society as not reflecting on itself or taking responsibility. After all, there’s plenty of Chinese people who say things that indicate they have no idea how hypocritical they sound or refuse to take responsibility for their own faults.

            My objection wasn’t that Germandude was overgeneralizing a criticism of “some” Chinese into “all” Chinese. Instead, it was the possible suggestion that foreigners are needed in China to save them from themselves. Know what I mean? It sounded too much like The White Man’s Burden.

            If that’s cleared up, I agree that a lot of Chinese people tend to shirk responsibility when it might cost them something. While I think that predisposition is far from unique to Chinese people, I agree that in many Western or more developed countries, there is considerably less fear of taking responsibility because there is a lot more reasonable/measured response to the assumption of responsibility and even fault.

            I was just involved in two minor traffic accidents over the past two weeks here in Shanghai and I can empathize with the stereotypes mentioned here. I’m just positive I’m not being delusional in my responses.

            As for broadening the shirking of responsibility into the rate of China’s progress on a macro scale, I dunno about that. It’s a bit too much extrapolation of individual proclivities into macroeconomic trends. It’s one of those things that sounds compelling on the surface but is actually hard to quantify. Kinda like explaining why Japanese culture helps or hinders Japanese business success. There’s a measure of subjective dot-connecting in it that should be taken with a grain of salt. Let’s just recognize that Chinese people have made a lot of legitimate progress for which they can be proud of and foreigners should be given due credit for any help they provided. Any belittling or overinflation of credit can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

          • lonetrey / Dan

            testing testing, 123.

            THANKS KAI.

          • Kai

            YOU’RE WELCOME, DAN.

            ;)

          • Kai

            Right, I suspected you are thinking of certain things or specific situations, which I can empathize with, but your original comment did not establish the context you are referring to now. Your original comment seemed to be about the “country and culture” overall in China.

            So before you get a bit upset, try to read how the conversation unfolded from you responding to POS, him responding to you, and you responding to him. I think you’ll see that I couldn’t have reasonably been expected to know your comments were in the context of “western companies that want to operate in China.”

            Reflection? Reflection and taking responsibiliy for your actions are the reasons I am complaining about this country and culture. If people would actually take responsibility, I and most foreigners in China, wouldn’t need to be here.

            When you wrote this, maybe you were thinking about you in your company. I had no way of knowing that though.

            finding a person that admits errors is more difficult than finding water in the Sahara desert.

            Heh, I can empathize with your frustration with people who don’t admit fault. I just think Chinese people overall demonstrate every day that they can reflect/introspect and take responsibility. We may be able to generalize them being adverse to doing so in certain situations but I wouldn’t say categorically overall.

            We can say Li Tianyi refuses to introspect and take responsibility for his crimes. But there were 3 other Chinese defendants who did. So, everything has to be seen in proper context and proportion.

          • Germandude

            Oh shit, I just read your reply’s one by one. Reading this comment, I know now that you got my meaning. Sorry for the confusion ;-)

          • The problem is most people on this board probably aren’t in real business in China. Students, teachers, tourists, short term business trips. The pool of actual full time expats in foreign companies is smaller than the total pool of foreigners I believe?

          • Germandude

            Yes, you have a point.

          • Kai

            I’m in real business in China but what Richard said is definitely true. If you wrote that comment with the expectation that everyone would understand you as referring to international business/corporate environments, you were mistaken. POS was referring to debates with Chinese people where Chinese people dismiss him by saying he doesn’t understand Chinese culture. He’s resentful of that, for understandable reasons. There was no way I could’ve understood you had suddenly jumped from that context to a context of why foreign expat managers are needed in international business/corporate environments.

            I knew you aren’t stupid enough to think “most foreigners” are “needed” to save Chinese people from themselves but that’s what your comment sounded like in the apparent context at that point in the discussion.

          • Germandude

            Ok. As above, I did the mistake of not specifying the international business side that I was refering to.

          • lonetrey / Dan

            I was this close to becoming someone like that a month ago, when my uncle in Taiwan wanted me to try out working for a Taiwanese company.

            I politely said no,… and I’m a little afraid that my fear of being misunderstood might’ve played a larger role in my decision than it should have.

          • Justin

            Let me guess. How long did you live in China before you decided you were an expert? 2 months? 3 months? When is the Yale China Law Project giving you your honorary doctorate in Sinology? Oh I think you need at least half a year for that PhD, kid. I’m sure you’ll continue to enhance your vast encyclopedic knowledge of this strange land with in-depth research of Chinasmack and Wikipedia. Maybe if you got your fat ass up off from the keyboard and walked around the country every now and again, I dunno learned to speak the language, worked and lived with actual real Chinese people instead of seeing them as this homogenous mass of poor peasants, maybe then you might actually know what the fuck your talking about every now and again and I wouldn’t have to get on here continually and make you look like an ignorant jackass. You need therapy dude, because you’re obviously full of hate and insecurity.

          • Germandude

            9 years Justin, 9 years. Get your head out of your ass. You will then notice the bright side of life.

            Now continue breeding with linette.

          • Kai

            I understand your beef with POS more than I understand your beef with Germandude. I suspect there was a conversation somewhere I didn’t pay attention to where you developed a different impression of him than I have. That said, this is a lot more venemous than I expected from you because my impression of you has been a history of rational, level-headed, fair comments that I found a refreshing and reassuring against an often demoralizing backdrop of casual racism mixed with self-righteous hypocrisy.

            Germandude and I haven’t always seen eye to eye but in my experience has been a preciously well-behaved commenter who even more preciously tries to be reasonable and usually responds well to earnest disagreement with sincere reconsideration and discussion. I wouldn’t mind having you link me to where he’s been “full of hate and insecurity” and was otherwise an “ignorant jackass” to reconsider my impression of him, but I suspect you might be lumping him in unfairly with some other people who are more befitting of that characterization.

          • whuddyasack

            I agree. The two can not be anymore different. The difference is this:
            Germandude = genuine poster and cool even with disagreements

            POS = Just a ‘piece of shit’ troll that serves no purpose except to China bash (and get walloped in the process hahahaha)

          • Germandude

          • Eurotrash

            But they are a homogenous mass of poor peasants, statistically speaking, of course.

          • lonetrey / Dan

            http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24960260.jpg

            No worries, I still read them all though!

          • Kai

            LoL, you punk. You should expect that from me by now. You have no excuse for making fun of me for it as a result! *stomps feet*

          • whuddyasack

            Look at Kai throwing a tantrum. Precious HAHAHAHA
            But I think I’ll be taking your place as Mr Wall of Text from now on :-)

          • whuddyasack

            Likewise, I tend to read his entire post, even if it is him being critical of me. And I’d like to think of myself as that guy who responds with a WoT back.

            I think he’s the only guy here on CS that writes and beats around the bush more than me. I wonder if he cuts and deletes lines the same way I do though ;-)

          • Justin

            I’m guessing Chinese girls won’t sleep with you despite the fact that all the expats around you are getting laid like Wilt Chamberlain at a nymphomaniac convention. Most likely because you’re a fat, balding, ugly little troll full of bitterness and hatred toward mankind. Am I missing the mark here? And because of that, you’re resentful against all Chinese. You need to continue to reassert your intellectual, physical and cultural superiority over them at every moment you can and your only outlet to do such is within the safe confines of Chinasmack, where other pathetic trolls like Germandude can suck your dick and help you to uphold the glass structure that is your twisted xenophobic worldview.

          • Germandude

            The only thing I am reading from you all the time are insults and wrong assumptions. Nothing of any value at all. Which high horse are you riding?

            Why suggesting others of needing a therapy when in fact it’s you, wanker, that needs one?

          • lonetrey / Dan

            I don’t think you have the right level of judgment of Germandude. :(

            At best, Germandude is just a guy who has his own opinions of Chinese society, and he sees a lot of valid things that could be done better.

            At worst,he’s a guy who’s a little angry and speaks in a way that may offend someone.

            But I think it’s really up to you to get to know people more after reading more and more of their posts, and see what they really are like over they years.

          • Germandude

            Well thanks for the kind words. You are pretty right. I usually see the bad things more than the good things. Not only regarding China, but in general: world, home-country, family etc.
            That’s simply German culture: Don’t change a winning team, just point out the areas that need improvement/could improve.

            I stated numerous times my wherabouts and how much I am connected with Chinese and that there are many things I like about China and its culture.
            I have no clue who Justin is or if I ever offended him before. Anyways, he jumps on here and talks rubbish without anything backing his points against me.

            So, I give him another freekick to hate on me: Justin simply is a spineless wanker.

          • TheSOP

            You forgot to put in a good word for me???

          • lonetrey / Dan

            Haha, when someone tries to pick a fight with you next time and write twenty different posts in an article focused on you, I will be sure to poke at their reasons for doing so! :)

          • TheSOP

            Kill yourself, thx bye.

        • MonkeyMouth

          just as theSOP said….we western imperialist barbarians could never comprehend it. the whole thing is a smokescreen. they dont have much culture left, and are just swimming is malaise of greed and materialism nowadays. just like zappa said. one can feel the impending earthquake underfoot these days. polarization of society means a ton of unhappy and frustrated folks. and this is what we western bastards know all too well.

        • Mony Xie

          They changed it to “You don’t understand China.”

          • Germandude

            So they wrote off culture. At least honest…

        • Eurotrash

          Gotta remember to do that. Ha!

      • Zappa Frank

        it’s not that is impossible to understand, it’s that they don’t know even what is their cultural background because everything has been erased and now they just extemporize something (odd usually) pretending it’s a ancient cultural thing.. The “cultural difference” thing is just the mask for their void..

        • MonkeyMouth

          you, mr frank, are absolutely right on. great comment.

    • lonetrey / Dan

      Thanks for the link! I enjoy things like this, it’s like someone else dug up a buried time capsuled and shared the stories inside with the rest of us. :D

    • MonkeyMouth

      and ol’ Da Shan would have been right….t’is sad. hang the bastard li tian yi

    • m0l0k0

      >The photo was a close-up of Li Shuangjiang, holding an infant boy and planting a mock kiss on the baby’s penis.

      lul wut

  • markus peg

    ____

  • mr.wiener

    ….And not a shite was given.

    • Germandude

      That’s not true!

      • mr.wiener

        O.K you are right….I’d still totally do his mum though!

        http://wiki.china.org.cn/wiki/images/thumb/3/37/Meng_Ge.JPEG/240px-Meng_Ge.JPEG

        • Germandude

          For her age, she looks good indeed. Or are you having an unexercised fetish for uniforms? ;-)

          • mr.wiener

            What can I say? I do like a sheila in a uniform.
            I really don’t know where the little toerag got his thing for pink T-shirts though.

          • Free Man

            ever seen a picture with him wearing another color? maybe its a tattoo..

        • lonetrey / Dan

          wow, she’s a lot better looking than I remember. o__o

          • 二奶头发

            it’s called photoshop.

          • lonetrey / Dan

            most likely! She probably physically aged quite a few years from this trial alone :/

        • Repatriated

          I think she looks like a chipmunk.

        • don mario

          would bash.

        • Germandude

          The saga continues…

          • MonkeyMouth

            is this all because his dad kissed his cock??

          • m0l0k0

            MOAR

      • m0l0k0

        OMFG funniest shit I ever read on chinasmack

        • Germandude

          Bullshit. Everybody knows Germans don’t have humor…

          • m0l0k0

            and apparently unable to recognize compliments as well…okay, it was lame, downvoted.

          • Germandude

            LOL, I really should stop using irony…

            Actually, I was happy to make you laugh that’s all.

          • Zappa Frank

            irony? what are you talking about, it’s true!

          • Germandude

            So you didn’t like my Li Tianyi stuff. That’s sad.

          • Zappa Frank

            the stuff is great but germans don’t have humor… therefore i suspect you’re not german.. admit! you’re turkish

          • Germandude

            Hm, nope. You are wrong on this one.

          • Zappa Frank

            I was not serious just joking on the stereotype of the cold German and that Germany is full of Turkish

          • Germandude

            Alright alright. No harm done.

          • Paul Schoe

            The Turkish reference was really funny ;-)
            All those Turkish people that can call themselves ‘Germandude’ nowadays ;-)

          • Germandude

            Gülünecek bir şey

          • Paul Schoe

            So why is my chair rocking then?

          • Germandude

            More like: what are you laughing about ;-)

  • winterbitten

    What a tard, seriously.

  • Freddi BuBu

    But then who is the young lady pictured there in the pink t-shirt….??

    • My_honourable_lord

      New around here? Its HIM. Actually, its probably a ‘she’ now.

      • Turbocomppro

        I’m quite sure he was being sarcastic.

    • MonkeyMouth

      Li Tian Mei

    • m0l0k0

      Li Tian’s Anus Before Chinese Jail: o
      Li Tian’s Anus After Chinese Jail: 0

  • Repatriated

    Yawn. Just lock him up already…

  • My_honourable_lord
    • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

      It’s just airspace. Boats are unaffected.

      • 二奶头发

        unless they grow wings and fly :P

    • m0l0k0

      and nobody gave a shit

  • stevelaudig

    “Insiders familiar with the case disclosed that Li XX has continuously maintained that this case is just one of prostitution,”. They are insiders of the Li camp. They are not ‘particularly’ familiar with ‘the case’ and they are either pr flacks or shills for the family. Does anyone remember Deng Yujiao? It’s bee a little more than four years since her situation was fumbled by the authorities. Rape used to be punished with execution in the US. Some regret it still isn’t.

  • Cauffiel

    Man, someone’s gonna get whacked…..

  • MonkeyMouth

    tow the line until it breaks…. thats why they cant answer. they arent encouraged to think for themselves. and save face at all costs.

    • Justin

      the expression is “toe the line”

      • lonetrey / Dan

        “w” and “e” are right next to each other, could be a simple typo.

  • MonkeyMouth

    first one to post gets the ‘best seat on the house’

  • mwanafa

    Long time ago the first one to comment, his/her comment will stay on top of other comments, so he/she is on the sofa. But its all changed now as the position will vary due to the comments and upvotes the comment gets.

    • Kai

      Whether the first commenter appears at the top depends on your Disqus settings. “Best” will sort according to votes. “Newest” will have the latest on top. “Oldest” will have the oldest or “first” at the top. I, for example, use “Oldest” so “sofa” comments are usually at the top for me.

      If you click a Notifications link from “My Disqus” to a reply made to you, that also sorts the comments in a different way, often with the immediate discussion thread being moved to the top. This has confused people before, making them think certain comments were deleted because they weren’t immediately visible.

      • mwanafa

        Oh yeah that’s right.

  • Kai

    http://www.chinasmack.com/glossary#沙发

    It’s the Chinese equivalent of “first”.

  • Mony Xie

    Actually I’m more interested in his father Li Shuangjiang. He has vanished from the news for quite a long time. I wonder what he has been up to.

    • markus peg

      hiding as his son as lost his “face” for him…

  • Justin

    Song of the Article: “Date Rape” By Sublime.

    The next day she went to her drawer, look up her local attorney at law,

    went to the phone and filed the police report and then she took the guy’s ass to court.

    Well, the day he stood in front of the judge he screamed, “She lies that little slut!”

    The judge knew that he was full of shit and he gave him 25 years

    And now his heart is filled with tears.

    One night in jail it was getting late.

    He was butt-raped by a large inmate, and he screamed.

    But the guards paid no attention to his cries.

    That’s when things got out of control.

    The moral of the date rape story, it does not pay to be drunk and horny.

    But that’s the way it had to be.

    They locked him up and threw away the key.

    Well, I can’t take pity on men of his kind,

    even though he now takes it in the behind.

    But that’s the way it had to be.

    They locked him up and threw away the key.

    Well, I can’t take pity on men of his kind,

    even though he now takes it in the behind.

    DATE RAPE!

    • lol,,, but the best lyrics in any Sublime song have to be, ‘I Hope You Die.’

  • mike921

    Those fake ‘entertainment soldiers’ should save their money so they can give that brat a ‘whatever he is now’ to male surgery. He will be a big hit in prison – beeeeeeatch!

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