Hospital Staff Rally to Guard Body of Fatally Stabbed Doctor

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

From Phoenix Online:

Wenling Doctor Killing Case: Entire Hospital Staff Guards Corpse From Cremation; Police on The Scene

Original Title: Wenling Hospital Mourns for Murdered Doctor

October 27, in the evening, in Zhejiang Wenling city No 1 People’s Hospital, in the hallway outside a temporary autopsy room, most of the medical staff and the deceased’s family members stood together to protect Wang Yunjie’s remains, and only a few medial staff were on duty for providing services.

On that day at 15:00, after the body of the hospital’s murdered doctor Wang Yunjie was autopsied, the hospital attempted to send Wang Yunjie’s body to the funeral parlor for cremation without obtaining consent from the deceased’s family, and was stopped by the family and medical staff. As of 20:00, Wenling police have already dispatched police vehicles to the scene to maintain order, and Wenling’s relevant government leaders have also rushed to the scene to handle the situation.

On the morning of October 25th, in a hospital in Wenling, three doctors were stabbed and injured by a man, among which included Otorhinolaryngology Department [E.N.T. Dept] Chief Physician Wang Yunjie who died despite treatment.

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital hung a streamer :Mourning for Doctor Wang

A banner hangs outside Zhejiang Wenling First People’s Hospital mourning for Dr. Wang

Earlier Report:

Zhejing Wenling Doctor Killing Case

Zhejiang Daily News Wenling, October 25 report — Due to a complaint over the result of a surgery, a man from Wenling today unexpectedly went to Wenling No. 1 People’s Hospital and used a dagger to stab and injure three outpatient doctors, among which included Otorhinolaryngology Department Chief Physician Wang Yunjie who died despite treatment.

The assailant is named Lian Enqing, who is from Wenling city Ruo Heng town Pu Ao, 33 years old, and was a patient of Cai X of the Otolaryngology Department of the hospital, who is unrelated with the three doctors who were attacked. At present, Lian Enqing has been detained.

When journalists rushed to the hospital in Wenling, there was still one doctor who was in the emergency room receiving emergency treatment. At the elevator on the hospital’s fifth floor remained a ghastly bloodstain that continued to spread towards the door of the Stomatology Department.

At 8:00 this morning, with a hammer and a dagger in hand, Lian Enqing headed straight to the fifth floor to Cai X’s outpatient consulting room where five patients noticed and fiercely braced the office door. Lian Enqing used his hammer and broke the glass window on the door, then entered into another patient consulting room whose door was open. The doctor on duty there was 46-year-old chief physician Wang XX. Lian Enqing used the dagger to assault Wang XX. His chest bleeding, Wang XX ran out of the consulting room and fled towards the Stomatological Department ward.

59-year-old Chief Physician Wang X [another doctor also surnamed Wang] was one of three doctors who fell victim. At the time, he was consulting a patient and upon hearing the noise from the opposite consulting room, he got up to see what was happening just in time to see Wang XX run out of his consulting room with Lian Enqing chasing after him. There were many Stomatological doctors and patients, but they all too slow to react. Lian Enqing grabbed Wang XX with one hand and stabbed directly into his heart. Wang X went forward to wrestle away the knife only to get stabbed once in his upper-right chest.

“The entire incident only lasted four or five minutes, and just as everyone stood there in shock, Lian Enqing turned and ran.” Wang XX said he covered his wound with his hand and gave chase. Lian Enqing ran into the Radiology Department where he stabbed and seriously injured Deputy Director Dr. Jiang X.

After Wang XX was taken to the emergency department, he died despite emergency rescue efforts. Jiang X’s pericardium was stabbed and diaphragm penetrated, and is currently receiving emergency care in the intensive care room. Wang X’s upper-right chest skin was pierced, and is the least injured among the three.

[…]

At present, the specific reason for this incident is still under further investigation (Reporter: Jin Yi, Shi Tianxing, Municipal Committee Report Group Zhou Minshu, Wu Mingli)

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

Zhejiang wenling First People's Hospital most medical staff protect Wang Yunjie's body with the family

The murder: Lian Enqing

” The criminal suspect Lian Enqing arrested.”

The murder write some words on the wall which says:"Wang Yunjie, Lin Haiyong Die"

Zhejing Wenling city Ruo Heng country Pu Ao, the criminal Lian Enqing wrote several words with a permanent marker on the wall of where he lived, his handwriting messy: “7.31 Wang Yunjie, Lin Haiyong, Die”

Comments from Phoenix Online:

凤凰网山西省忻州市网友:凤凰网友

The murder of the doctor is a crime on the surface, but at heart, it is the news media unfairly adding fuel to the fire. In doctor-patient conflicts, can the doctor really be blamed? Poor innocent doctor. If this continues, who would still dare to be a doctor???

凤凰网四川省网友:huihui558

I hate the murderer’s ruthlessness, but I don’t want to sympathize with the doctors either! Nowadays, some doctors are willing to do any immoral thing for money!

凤凰网江苏省苏州市网友:凤凰网友 (responding to above)

Those who can’t afford to purchase a home can go stab construction workers or developers; those who can’t eat safe food can go stab vegetable farmers or vegetable dealers; those who can’t get into college can go stab teacher; those who can’t find a job can go stab company management; those who can’t afford to buy something can go stab the cashier; everyone might as well just stab each other, hate each other. Just who is actually the one behind the scenes add fuel to the fire and laughing?

凤凰网上海市网友 手机用户

Doctors these days are not worth sympathizing with, treating patients as if they were slaves.

凤凰网北京市网友:zzdmzal (responding to above)

Every day, there are over a hundred patients waiting to see the doctor. Do you think the doctor will have the mind and time to chat with you? You always think the doctor should treat you like god, chatting with you and inquiring after your health. You treat your own disease/illness as important, and you demand the doctor to treat you as an important patient, but there are also other patients who are more seriously ill than you. Doctors have also seen more than you have, and being able to correctly handle and treat your disease is good enough as it is, don’t ask for too much. Let me ask you, what would you do if you were the doctor? Actually, doctor-patient problems/conflicts are all instigated by individual unscrupulous journalists.

凤凰网北京市网友:jks222

Why are doctor-patient relationships so tense? Throughout the country every year, there are many incidents of attacks and murders, which is worth reflecting on.

凤凰网山西省运城市网友:英明的大哥

From this day on when you are sick, just go to the temple and beg god instead!

凤凰网辽宁省沈阳市网友:凤凰网友

Nowadays doctors receive countless red packets [red envelopes containing money as a gift, bribes for preferential treatment in this context] everyday.

凤凰网广东省网友:yellem

Treating patients as trifles, the fate of [of doctors] who love money as life and lack medical ethics!!!

凤凰网湖北省武汉市网友:凡人的士

Healthcare reform, healthcare reform, reformed to this. It sure isn’t easy for Health Bureau chiefs.

凤凰网河南省商丘市网友:yangyijin

In a country and a society, if you can’t trust the doctors, what group of people can you trust? There are indeed some black sheep amongst doctors, but you can’t reject/dismiss all doctors just because of a few individuals. Our media should provide positive energy to society, and not use individual/isolated cases to provoke social problems! Let society have more sunshine and less rage!

凤凰网内蒙古包头市网友:hxqhtr

Government and media should bear responsibility for the [problems/conflicts in] doctor-patient relationship!!!

凤凰网江苏省网友:逍遥风529

What is the root of low social trust? Why do a lot of people not trust high-level doctors? Mutual trust is the root of society.

凤凰网江西省南昌市网友:john_yu

The so-called doctor-patient problem are embellished and exaggerated by the media in order to distract from the problems of the healthcare system, using it to cover up the inherent problems of this country’s medical care system. The people who are hurling abuse at doctors should think about the industries or fields they themselves are engaged in. Are they so pure and noble? Especially those people who are using malicious language. Actually, these kinds of people wouldn’t have any kind-hearted behavior regardless of what industry they are in.

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  • lacompacida

    What kind of system and society made this necessary ? Why people are sustaining this kind of system ? How do people feel under this kind of system ?

    • Riddler

      Good point. As I outlined below, speak to the women who babies were ripped from their wombs. I DO wonder how they feel. With a medical system as corrupt as this, I am surprised anyone is surprised. With all the pharma companies with doctors/surgeons in collusion using innocent, vulnerable people as guinea pigs for experimenting new medicine on, you would be hard pushed to feel sympathy for doctors these days who prescribe all kinds of poison called medicine only to get commission on every prescription they sign off.

      Good riddance.

      • Probotector

        Are you referring to doctors only in China, or the world over?

        • Riddler

          Most of it doctors in china. The bit about doctors getting kickbacks for prescriptions, i fear that may be more widespread.

    • the ace of books

      Since you asked:

      A systems and society that lacks enforcement and the laws and penalties necessary for order, and that experiences endemic corruption throughout every segment of every corner of every job. it’s not necessary – it’s just reactions.

      People are sustaining the system because 1) they’re working with what they have, 2) they mostly haven’t experienced an alternative, 3) they grew up with it and it’s all they know, and 4) the ones who benefit aren’t going to want to change it.

      People, as you can see, aren’t happy with the system, but they don’t know how to fix it. It contains too many endemic problems to be “solved” per se.

      • Kai

        I think most people “feel helpless” to fix it. Without feeling some measure of empowerment (or empowerment through organization), they may also not even bother to think about “how” to fix it. That’s a problem with the current overall “system” and one of the valid advantages (though imperfect) of a more democratic “system” where people are indoctrinated to believe they can change things or at least organize for change within the system.

        It’s not that people don’t organize in China, because they clearly have, countless times in history and in the present. However, it’s too often a sort of “last resort”, a mob that is formed out of desperation and with the intent to cause visible trouble to make a problem or their grievance heard by those whom they believe can actually change things. This is more like fighting the system than working through a system that itself incorporates constiutent participation in governance.

  • Ruaraidh

    Easy for the whole hospital staff to stand up against crematorium workers, less easy for them to stand up against a hammer wielding maniac. This solidarity is a bit fucking late, methinks.

    • the ace of books

      It certainly is late, but I’ll offer a couple comments as to the reasoning here:

      – a hammer-wielding maniac is a loose cannon, an unpredictable factor. what to do in this situation? most untrained civilians have no idea, and most people are untrained civilians.

      – crematorium workers are easy to stand up against, but that’s because they’re the physical face of a larger institution. crematorium workers are as easy to stand up against as doctors are to stab.

      – standing up against the cremation is a symbolic act as much as a realistic one. (hell, I think Lian up there thought his own act was a symbolic one, too, but I think we can all agree that Lian’s a bit touched in the head.) allowing the body to be taken and disappeared like that is allowing evidence of a crime to be swept under the proverbial rug as though it never happened. because that is what it’d be treated as, otherwise – nothing to see here, folks, move along. and that, I think we can all agree, ain’t right.

      • Riddler

        “…but I’ll offer a couple comments as to the reasoning here:

        – a hammer-wielding maniac is a loose cannon, an unpredictable factor. what to do in this situation? most untrained civilians have no idea, and most people are untrained civilians…?

        Most cowards have no idea you mean. Try running into a hospital with a hammer in the UK. An old aged pensioner would ram that hammer down your throat before you get to injure anyone.

        Again, why is no one standing up to forced abortions. Why?

        • Probotector

          When you talk of forced abortions, do you know how exactly they are forced upon women? Is it coercion, or does someone physically grab them and drug them?

          • Riddler

            Both. If the woman were spoken to and ‘advised’ to have an abortion, that is an outrage. But unfortunately, they are also physically forced abortions. Widely reported, even here on cs a while back.

            Then you have the death rooms. Where unwanted, newborn female babies are left to rot. They are then sold to factories who make anti-ageing ‘medicine after drying dead babies in ovens, chopping them up, making powder, into capsules and sold.

            Sympathy for chinese doctors? Unless they ‘all stand up’ to this SIN (robert meat read this!) they deserve no sympathy.

            http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/baby-im-sorry-chinese-dad-takes-photos-of-dead-son-after-forced-abortion-at

          • Probotector

            Well, my wife’s off to the Ministry of Births & Deaths to get permission to have a baby, a pointless exercise when she’s already three months pregnant. I wonder what the criteria for denial of permission would be.

          • Riddler

            Wishing you both the best.

            Criteria of denial? Partner speaking the truth on CS? :-)

          • Probotector

            Thanks, and that second one’s a possibility.

          • Riddler

            You’ll be alright mate:-)

          • Riddler
        • Kai

          Don’t be disingenuous. You understood Ace’s point, which is that people don’t generally expect to deal with hammer-wielding maniacs and thus fail to react as heroically as we might have wanted them to from behind our keyboards. It’s not an issue of cowardice and you’re being a dick by intentionally framing it that way. If pensioners in the UK were all as quick-witted and heroic as you make them out to be, there wouldn’t be any unfortunate incidents in the UK. And yet there are. Stop it.

          On forced abortions, there are people who are standing up to them. Why do you think examples of such get reported? The thing is, there are also people who believe such measures are a “necessary evil” for the “greater good”. Governments have been infringing upon the rights of the individual since time immemorial. We pick and choose what we can tolerate. Do you really not understand the complexities of interests behind China’s reproductive policies or are you just trying to oversimplify problems to generate false outrage?

          • Riddler

            Of course i do Kai. It has less to do with the topic and more to do with tone. For example. You present your points in a balanced manner, both sides of the story, for better or for worse but, always balanced. Sorry I go off the rails and get venal with some people but its the way it is.

            I agree with your points and all of them and, appreciate the sobriety of your manner and how you somehow, God knows how, deal with these issues and step in before things get out of hand.

            Just HOW many comments do you have to go through on a normal day? A little curious about that.

          • Kai

            I’ve probably gone through all the comments in about a week’s worth of posts today. I usually fall into a coma afterward, during which my psyche has to rebuild itself before I can visit cS again. Each time, it takes me longer.

            @theaceofbooks:disqus ‘s tone seemed fine to me. Ace tries to be balanced and light-hearted at the same time, in my experience, and even did a whole pro and con list somewhere. More importantly, Ace was also actually discussing the topic in good-faith.

          • Riddler

            That’s tough work. I hope this is not voluntary and you actually get paid for the hours you put in. People may say whatever, but hat off to you and mr.wiener for keeping things cool around here.

            And yeah, you are right about ace, sorry for going overboard on that.

          • mr.wiener

            “Paid”!?!…You think I’d accept money for this amount of abuse?

          • Riddler

            Wtf? You do this voluntarily? Naaaa maaaaan! Seriously?

          • Riddler

            Um, sorry man. Kai shouldn’t have called me a dick. I had to ask him why he did that. Seriously Mr. W. This is not a rant. He wants to comment, post, jump in conversations fine. Give me a talking to over a post fine. I can take that and you know I can. But him jumping into conversations to explain what other people intended in their tones and comments smacks of a one sided approach. Now I know this annoys you but, I am speaking to the Mr W we all know and respect to look at this not as a fellow moderator to kai but as the Mr W we know from way back.

          • the ace of books

            Actually — well, I’m sure you’ve heard the song. “Sweet dreams are made of these…”

          • Riddler

            Kai what the fuck is your problem all over again? I had just skipped your post but now see you calling me a dick. Screw you asshole.

          • mr.wiener

            It’s confirmed. You are being a dick.

          • Probotector

            …says the guy whose name is Wiener.

          • mr.wiener

            it’s a deli thang.

          • Riddler

            Reminds me of that track- The President’s a bush, the vice president’s dick, so a whole lot of fucking is what we gonna get.

            So that kind of makes me a fucker. Thanks for the compliment gents:-)

          • Probotector

            “people don’t generally expect to deal with hammer-wielding maniacs and thus fail to react as heroically as we might have wanted them to from behind our keyboards.”

            It’s true that this is the case, but it’s still cowardice.

            “If pensioners in the UK were all as quick-witted and heroic as you make them out to be, there wouldn’t be any unfortunate incidents in the UK. And yet there are.”

            Pensioners can’t be everywhere at once now can they? That was a joke.

            “people who believe such measures are a “necessary evil” for the “greater good”. Governments have been infringing upon the rights of the individual since time immemorial. We pick and choose what we can tolerate. Do you really not understand the complexities of interests behind China’s reproductive policies or are you just trying to oversimplify problems to generate false outrage?”

            Does this mean you think forced abortion is not a big deal? How far will you tolerate infringements on someone’s rights? The fact is, infringements on people’s rights should never be tolerated. Don’t try and dismiss it with “the complexities of interests behind China’s reproductive policies”. A responsible government should be able to deal with such complexities without infringing on people’s rights, and especially not with such barbarism.

            It is well known that the government of China, at any level, is not concerned with people’s rights. You shouldn’t make excuses for them.

          • Kai

            No, that doesn’t mean I think forced abortion is not a big deal. It means I think he is being disingenuous and that makes his outrage “false”.

            You believe certain rights are inalienable. I recognize that in the real world, that’s unfortunately not true. There isn’t a single national government I know of that hasn’t infringed upon some “right” or another. Acknowledging this is not dismissing much less condoning barbarism. It’s just having a clear picture of the world.

            I recognize that there are a lot of injustices in this world that I cannot reasonably help. You do too. That’s why we’re both on cS commenting instead of out there being activists and martyrs. Using moral blackmail here is dishonest.

            Riddler is less concerned about forced abortions than about how it as a topic can be used to distract from @theaceofbooks:disqus ‘s comment and change the topic onto one he’s more interested in. That he pretends he can’t separate the few from the many and disingenuously blames all Chinese doctors for some social ill is also dishonest. You and I both know he knows better, but he’s feigning he doesn’t for a dishonest purpose.

            You see me as making excuses. I see myself trying to understand real world issues realistically.

      • Alex

        Most untrained civilians? Well, its a good thing they all receive military training then… what a lot of use that is eh.

        • Riddler

          One million in a hospital can’t stand up to a guy with a hammer and yet they get little erections and masturbate over going to war with Japan. A country whose men are known for that Kamikaze phenomenon.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            You hit the nail on that one bro!

          • Riddler

            Thanks man. It seems we have met:-) Welcome.

        • Riddler

          Yes, they do receive military training.

          • Probotector

            No, they don’t learn how to defend themselves.

          • Riddler

            Or anyone else for that matter.

        • the ace of books

          Well, since you know that, you probably know what the quality and efficacy of that training is. I figure it to be like college classes – there’s a bell curve, and a few people at the end of the curve really care, but the vast majority are “ehn” and will never use nor remember what they’ve learnt.

    • 二奶头发

      Hospitals need more security guards.

      • Riddler

        And a few more doctors now.

      • maybeabanana

        Hospitals need more decent individuals that wants to care for people as it is in their profession and interests; not guards with weapons.

        • Joseph Lau

          In other words. what is needed is more professionals with principles rather than just experts that are just in to cash in on the trade for the desperate.

      • Joseph rodriguez

        I disagree,more guards will just prevent maniacs from hurting anybody. It is not addressing the core problem here. China needs better attention and implementation/outreach of mental health programs.But this approach is not financially convenient for bureaucrats isn’t it? So this problem will just fester more.

  • whuddyasack

    Whether doctors are immoral or cheat, or deserving of sympathy, an innocent man still died.

    RIP to the doctor.

    • Riddler

      I’d feel more sympathy when they all stand up for forced abortions. Until then yes, RIP.

      Rest in Pieces.

      • whuddyasack

        Stereotypically and taken as a whole; “whether” being an indication that there is a possibility that not all are immoral or cheat. As far as I know, this doctor was innocent and doing his job. He was not committing murder, rape or assault.

        But yeah, thanks for letting us know what a GAY-RATE judge you are. People deserve to die because you think so. Wooooowwww dewd, keep outdoing yourself.

        • Riddler

          ‘As far as I know’

          Which says it all.

          That doctor didn’t die because i thought so, conducted some telepathy and had it all neatly arranged. He dies because there was a severely pissed off chinese guy who wanted it that way. Its not justified but there are reasons I assure you. As is pointed out in the links above.

          But you just like videos and graphic pics don’t you?

          • Riddler

            What’s the matter? Cat got your tongue?

            Typing away feverishly on google? Or just pounding on your pillow?

            Need a tissue?

            Or a doctor? :-)

          • mr.wiener

            Apparently he is being the bigger man.

          • Riddler

            Being a bigger man by name calling until he is lost for words? I doubt how that is being the bigger man. For days he is getting on my and other peoples cases but persists in calling names, cursing and I refrained up till yesterday. I have been trying to make an effort but it seems at times, the only way certain people understand that they can’t go around making racist comment, swearing and otherwise being ‘wankers’, for want of a better word, unless they are responded to in kind.

            Would you Mr. Wiener, tell me if he is really being the bigger man? I tried to reason with him previously but was met with nothing but abuse. No complaints on my side though. I wouldn’t want to be called a’whiny bitch’.

          • whuddyasack

            “until he is lost for words?”

            Wow, I didn’t notice this gem before hahaha. I think it confirms my judgment of you, and why I’ll now leave you to your own rancid filth. The reality is I could have given you a good WHOOPI Goldberg and pages upon pages could be written about your terrible logic. I’ve yet to meet a worthy China-bashin’ CSmacker that’s able to worm out of the difficult position I thrust them in.

            I’ll just give you some parting “wisdom”. You don’t know that NO Chinese has protested or ignored baby girls being killed. Or opposed the forced abortions scheme. Many indeed have, if you read netizen comments, you can see that attitudes have started to change. Likewise, you don’t know which doctors and nurses oppose the scheme and which don’t. The fact that this has been brought to the attention of the world by CHINESE people whistle blowing to the international media and AI never crossed your mind?

            Now you play nice, jig around and Uncle Billy’s gonna give you some nice “Kentawwcky Fu-ried Cheek-in”. You’d like that, wouldn’t you?

          • Riddler

            What I’d like, is to know where you’ve been for the past couple of days. Licking your wounds while squatting with your buddies, flicking cigarette ash all over the place, farting away, spitting, trying to figure out how to return to the fold while nursing your bruised ego?

          • moody

            He died because he got in the way.

            as for doctors standing up against forced abortion
            doctors are part of a system they can hardly stand against
            they are going with the flow because who would endanger his carreer to take a stand against something that has been very dear to the party.

        • Probotector

          What’s a “GAY RATE judge”?

          • whuddyasack

            It’s a word I invented specifically for the Riddler. Pronounced grrrreatt, but intentionally spelled gay (as in lame) and rate (as in quality). Thus, a gay rate judge is a judge of low caliber.

      • Probotector

        “ps.they can be immoral or ‘cheat’ but still innocent. Exactly what meds are you on? Share them why don’t you, so we can all be as blissfully oblivious to the real world as you.”

        Dude, did you not here that Chinese have a right to lie, cheat and steal?

      • the ace of books

        People aren’t going to stand up for things that don’t directly affect them. He was an Ear, Nose, and Throat doctor – why would he get involved in an issue that isn’t related to his job, that’d endanger him to fight for, and that’s enough of a societal taboo to talk about that most people don’t even discuss the matter?

        Western outrage at a human rights issue isn’t going to help a man dead because his own country’s medical system is fucked up. So I really would recommend some respect to the dead, here.

        • Riddler

          ‘..People aren’t going to stand up for things that don’t directly affect them..’

          When a man runs into a hospital, when a man runs around in public with a hammer, it affects everyone. I could understand if it were a gun. But a hammer? A knife? My goodness, try that nonsense in Britain and even the females in the UK would deal with it.

          Those two guys in London who decapitated that soldier with choppers, it was a WOMAN who first got there and prevented them by causing more damage. Sorry but, this ‘it doesn’t bother me’ attitude is going to hurt china, IS hurting china, and is doing more damage than you can possibly conceive at this moment.

          I do feel respect for the dead. Those dead babies whose spirits will haunt your country for years to come. Where are the protests for all those little girls killed in hospitals? Where is respect for them? They aren’t even mentioned because it has nothing to do with anyone right? This dead doctor has nothing to do with anyone either. Lets move on shall we?

          • takasar1

            ‘deal with it’, i doubt that. if ‘deal with it’ simply refers to giving a talking to the offender then there was a chinese woman who told off a murderer/thief and made him flee. whats your point? i can find many examples where people have stood up to the chenguan but been penalized/arrested/put to death for it. you dont fight back if you know the system will fuck you and your family (the most important aspect) over. a man who had nothing to do with this is to blame? really?

          • Probotector

            “you dont fight back if you know the system will fuck you and your family (the most important aspect) over”

            It’s a shame China is so corrupt isn’t it?

          • takasar1

            It is but I’m not too surprised, it comes with this specific
            stage of development if you ask me. Britain in 1850, US in 1924 werent exactly much better and they were in a similar stage of development then as china is today. India, vietnam today also aren’t much better. It will improve, it just takes time, besides, almost everywhere is corrupt to an extent, its just the chinese feel the need to air their dirty laundry 24/7

          • Riddler

            It is 2013. Why is it, whenever china is criticised, someone has to pull history out of their asses? 1850? 1924? We are speaking about today.

            Tell us about chinese corruption TODAY. But that’s not possible is it? Not ONE chinese person has addressed forced abortions here. Not ONE.

            You HAVE no face so what is there to lose? Human babies used in medicine. Melamine in baby milk. Toxic food, oxygen in your cities, yet you want us to think about what America/Britain did a 1,000 years ago. Wake up and smell the coffee.

            As someone said, first we were afraid of china, now we are afraid FOR china.

          • headcrasher

            The argument “Its 2013” doesn’t indicate a standard for a certain social development stage. What would people say in 1900? “Hey guys, lets wait till 2013, then everything will be better!”. Some countries are faster some are slower.
            China is still a developing country and is not finished in their development as “civilized” western countries. 2013 is just a number.
            And the reason why no one addresses forced abortions is simply because it is law in China to have only one child. Different countries different rules. Everybody knows what happens if you have more kids -> forced abortion. In China it is simply a law that has been broken and the people are aware of the consequences.

          • Riddler

            ‘Everybody knows what happens if you have more kids -> forced abortion. In China it is simply a law that has been broken and the people are aware of the consequences.’

            Oh that’s ok then.

          • headcrasher

            not really, but this is the reason why people might not complain about that, because here it is not against the law.
            Its not like people would have a choice, I think it is safe to say that many people would know if they already have a child. at least for the woman that are made responsible.
            I don’t mean to say, that this justifies forced abortions for me and i guess you dont like them either, but here for many / most people it does.
            For us in our 2013 mind set it is a crime, for people in China it isnt. for some maybe cruel but not a crime.
            this i think is one thing that needs to be understood by western people. that we cant force our law on other countries. they have to be develop by themselves not forced from the outside.
            this is maybe on reason why there is a kind of racism against foreigners that try to tell them in their own country how terrible they are and how to do their shit.

          • Riddler

            So forced abortion is only a crime because its 2013?

          • headcrasher

            ???
            yeah not really, just tried to use your “its 2013” argument from before.
            but you could finish the part that comes after this very sentence you are referring to, then you may understand my point or maybe not.

            let me know if there is anything a riddle for you

          • Riddler

            ‘… just tried to use your “its 2013” argument…’

            Fail.

            ‘…let me know if there is anything a riddle for you….’

            Dismal Fail. In future, don’t attempt sarcasm when your English is useless. Refer to an English teacher.

          • headcrasher

            that is very true, didnt try hard enough. for the 2013 thing, i forgot to use ” ” these two. but useless? you must be a hardcore english teacher.
            let me stress, that you dont need to beat a dead horse or harp on meanings (however you call that in english).
            if you want we can go back to topic forced abortion again, since i think we started from there

          • Riddler

            No I’m not a teacher. Hardcore or otherwise. It’s just that I’m from the UK and do not appreciate you pretending you omitting appropriate punctuation as though you can get away with it.

            Or idioms for that matter.

            I wish we could go back to forced abortions. I can begin to see the wisdom behind it in SOME cases.

          • headcrasher

            Of course you are from the UK not only “just”, no need to point it out. There is no other english speaking country that is so damn proud of their language. And judging other people of using it.

            I don’t judge people by their use of language which is in my opinion just arrogant behaviour. So no need to show off.

            I judge on the ability of understanding things, people, situations, history, cultures and so on.

            btw. people who use language more than facts or opinions as arguments to address people in a discussion, dont really have anything to say which has value.
            In most cases they just try to show how smart in language they are but also sadly show how huge the lack in everything else is.

            You have my opinion of forced abortions in my previous comments. If you want to continue bitching around your great british english language, and my disability of using it, then go ahead. I wont response.
            If you want to have a real discussion about the issue you btw started and try to understand what i try say, then we can continue.

            thanks!

          • mr.wiener

            “There is no such goddamned thing as the “Queen’s English” anymore. English is a publicly traded company and we now own the majority of the shares.”
            Mark Twain.

          • Robert Rou

            And who gave you the authority to speak on behalf of Mark Twain, one of America’s most famed authors? Twain was an American and a noted anti-imperialist, but you are neither.

            And unfortunately, a dead man can’t defend himself from people like you, giving false quotes and abuses of free speech freedoms. In the past, you’ve even insinuated that the Opium Wars never happened.

            So given your misuse of privilege, can you tell us why should you be moderating others and not the other way around?

          • mr.wiener

            …….?
            You beggar belief.
            But in the interests of not upsetting the long dead American author I’ll offer him an apology.

            Are you sure you aren’t confusing me with someone else?

          • Robert Rou

            “Are you sure you aren’t confusing me with someone else?”

            No. It is you. And the right people already know about it.

          • mr.wiener

            Could you supply me with the quote where I said the Opium wars never happened then? I certainly believe they did and are a stain on the history of the European powers, most notably, Britain.

          • Robert Rou

            If you’re completely interested, then you should ask around. I’m sure you know who to ask. Given that a moderator like yourself can already edit his own posts (and the posts of others lol), I’m not entirely keen on doing dirty work that you can do yourself.

          • mr.wiener

            So you are not going to back up your accusations, it’s just something that everyone says about me?
            I’m suddenly having flashbacks to my primary school years.

            Well…it’s been wonderful chatting, keep up the….whatever it is that you are doing.

          • Robert Rou

            Lol, it’s because I don’t need to back it up. I don’t plan to back up something that both you and I already know.

          • mr.wiener

            So I can accuse you of molesting barnyard animals and not back it up as it is “something that both you and I already know”.?
            Git.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            wow!These guys have successfully diverted the topic here!They are good!

          • Riddler

            How has he ‘misused privilege’? How? I have plenty of disagreements with him but he responds in a neutral manner. And why are you getting so sensitive about Mark Twain and, why is no one allowed to quote him? For a chinese man you have a nerve criticising ‘false’ quotes.

            The opium wars? What is ‘war’ about it? You lot wanted dope. Supply and demand my friend.

          • Probotector

            “I don’t judge people by their use of language which is in my opinion just arrogant behaviour.”

            No, you just judge people by being self-righteous, which is even more arrogant.

            “I wont response.”

            He’s right though, you’re English is really bad, even for an American, or whatever you are.

          • headcrasher

            cute, one friend helps the other against the strange person.
            sounds pretty mob like, reminds me about how people solve their problems in china

          • Guang Xiang

            eh just forget about it, Probotector and Riddler have been butt-buddies since time immemorial (or maybe the same guy)

          • Riddler

            Who rattled your cage?

          • Paul Schoe

            Common Probotector,”you’re English is really bad“? What kind of a remark is that? There isn’t an English speaking person who would not understand what he says and for a second or third language, that is exactly what you want to achieve on a forum like CS. We are not taking English exams here.

            And I hope that English is also not your first language, because even though everybody understands what you say; “you are English is really bad (you’re) ” is not very impressive if English is your mother tongue.

          • Probotector

            He’s a native speaker, American, I believe.

            English is of course my first language, and this was a typo; I of course know the difference between your and you’re. Unfortunately though, it happens to be the most cliched grammar mistake there is, and is indeed very embarrassing, so I feel I should retract my criticism of his spelling now. Thank you for pointing it out. Normally I’m quite meticulous about spelling things right, and the one time I’m calling someone out on their spelling… Ironically deserved perhaps.

            Anyway, people should feel ashamed if they make a mistake in any language, regardless of whether it’s their own or not, because it indicates carelessness, and I’m feeling the shame right now of course.

            While we’re on the subject, do Chinese people ever make mistakes in their Chinese? I doubt it.

          • Paul Schoe

            No issue about the your/you’re item.

            I do disagree with your emphasis on correct spelling. When people are on a forum with many non-native speakers, the most important thing to me, is that people are able to express their meaning. Often they do not know the right words or expressions and come with ‘funny’ typos, and in such a forum grammar mistakes are simply part of the game.

            In my opinion, people should be encouraged to communicate, not being embarrassed by others for making mistakes. We should value opinion more then their fluency*.

            And if good spelling is what you want, then remember that it is practice that makes perfect, so if they can’t communicate here at ChinaSmack, how do they improve their skills?

            * (In China there is an important lesson for foreigners: if you are looking for an employee, do not make the mistake of automatically hiring the person whose English is best. That person has spent his/her time in learning English rather then learning the skills that you need for that position. Somebody whose English is worse, might be much better qualified for the job)

          • Riddler

            I agree with you completely. I would never harangue someone genuine, but there is nothing under the sun as grotesque as party members coming online and spouting racist nonsense and in English and, expect to be given a free reign. Everyone makes mistakes and typos but my criticism is reserved for a select few vermin hereabouts.

          • Riddler

            ‘Common Probotector’ or Come on…?

          • Paul Schoe

            Certainly the second one,but maybe both ;-)

          • Probotector

            You’re simply explaining away Chinese injustice and crimes against humanity, “because we have no right to criticise their ways” or “because they’re not developed enough to understand right from wrong”. If no one stands up for what is right, then progress can never be made.

          • headcrasher

            agree, that is very true. but if you look at countries that western countries “tried to make better”, then you can see, that now there is more chaos then there was before. a change has to come from the inside, not from the outside. because no matter if right or wrong, it will always cause friction.

            First there is the opinion of foreigners try to twist chinese peoples heads. foreigners just dont present a different way, they try to forced it to people. you can see that not only in china but also in the international community.
            this way is already wrong and does more harm than good. being a good example might be a better way. since already in the article above, you can see that somehow they are capable of resisting authority.
            have to give credit on that

          • Probotector

            Firstly, “foreigners”? Who are they exactly? Foreign to whom?

            Secondly, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. These are all countries that Westerners “tried to make better”. Would you say they are in chaos? You are correct on some counts though if you consider Cuba, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, but it’s not exclusively the case; it depends on which places we’re talking about.

            In the case of China, you may be correct about Western imposition of ideals, but is China any different when you consider the imposition of power on its people by the Communist party? Or the fate of Tibet? Or their designs on Taiwan?

          • headcrasher

            What i mean by try to make better is by force, not implementing different ideas or ideologies.
            but australia is not a good example. killing most of the natives and populating it with prisoners is not even “making it better”
            Taiwan, of course was always opposed to mainland, so they seeked support from western countries who didnt like china either. and so on.
            the other ones are more the ones i talk about. these ones are military interventions, raids or just colonizations. which i mean by force.

            China is different because it is ONLY doing it to its own people. ever heard a chinese person in your country telling you how to do your shit? no because they dont really care.

            Btw. dont you think that our countries have a similar indoctrination, just that we have a little more freedom.

            also, the cia world fact book never indicated that taiwan and china are two different countries. this situation is more complicated that we think

          • ashtray

            Chinese people do tell people how to do some shits in their countries, believe me or not.

          • headcrasher

            sure. expressed myself wrong. sorry for that. of course i cant generalize and say 100% don’t do that.
            it is the same with foreigners in china, not all of them complain of course

          • Riddler

            ‘…China is different because it is ONLY doing it to its own people. ever heard a chinese person in your country telling you how to do your shit?…’

            The day we start forcing women to have abortions or forcibly removing foetus from womens’ wombs, you say as you wish. For now, you are deflecting persistently and it is irritating me highly.

          • headcrasher

            you fetish about abortions is irritating me highly!

            my last comment didnt really address that topic anymore, just pointed out that china and some other particular countries are more masochistic and that western countries tend more to be sadistic.

          • Riddler

            Avoiding to answer a question directly will not lead to the question to disappear. Misdirection also is an art form and your use of the word ‘fetish’ negates your ability to address the initial question.

            China masochistic? How is THAT exactly? Actually don’t answer. We all know the insecurity from where this originates.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            That idea there is messed up in my opinion. It is better to do something bad to fellow Chinese rather than a foreigner does it?Seriously…

          • headcrasher

            in this context i think using the word “better” in not appropriate. i would use “worse” and “worst”

            raiding into a country, destroying everything, killing and raping lots of civilians, torture and murder, stealing all their resources, setting up western friendly governments and celebrating victory in mass media, is i think worse, yes.
            western countries are bored so, since there is apparently nothing to improve back home, need to fuck other countries so they can improve another one or to maintains status quo at home, what so ever!

            let me say it like this, i dont agree with american and european way of dealing with other countries. and especially people that are so full of themselves (not mean you!) by thinking they are superior to others, like to forget where this comes from. not because we are friendly people, but more colonizing people.

            but i need to point out (othewise people get me wrong) that i dont agree with all the inhumane stuff going on in china. just because i dont agree with the west, doesnt mean i agree with the east. not everything is black and white.

          • Riddler

            They made Hong Kong quite nice.

          • Riddler

            ‘…., for people in China it isnt. for some maybe cruel but not a crime…’

            Ripping a foetus out of a woman’s womb not a crime? You are a fine specimen aren’t you.

          • headcrasher

            Between having no choice and ripping out a fetus of a woman’s womb is a little difference, but both are by force. the last one is not the one im talking about of course terrible and should be killed for that. but this is not government policy, these are the even more corrupt and cruel rural governments.

            Also, Just found that before, heroic traits of the UK, bombing and killing brown people.
            You can be happy to live in the UK, riddler!
            But that is probably ok for you, nice country you are living in.
            Btw. China is still developing (which means getting better and better), UK already finished. If this is normal what civilized first world countries do, then i wish china to stay as they are.

            Rewarding the Guilty
            regards to the illegal killing of civilians by British Army soldiers in Iraq, there has only been one conviction – Corporal Donald Payne who was cleared of manslaughter, but he had previously admitted “inhumane treatment” – becoming the first British soldier ever to plead guilty to a
            war crime. Six other soldiers from the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment, now the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, (King’s, Lancashire and Border) were all acquitted. Corporal Donald Payne served just over 1 year in prison.

            *Of the 27 unarmed civilians who were shot by the British Army on Bloody Sunday only 13 survived. 13 died from their injuries on the day itself while a 14th (fifty nine year old John Johnson) died from his wounds four months later.

          • Riddler

            If you were standing in front of me I would throw a cold bucket of water filled with ice cubes all over your disfunctioning skull.

            First of all, we are aware of history in and of the UK and deal with it with OPEN discussion. Did you think that was your trump card? The difference between Britain and your party, is that we have free and open discussion, we criticise the government of the UK openly and have all manner of legal channels to pursue should our concerns not be heard.

            Now. Go outside in the nearest public square in china, stand up with a placard condemning chinese atrocities in Tibet and Xinjiang.

            Let’s see how many years you spend in labour camp smashing stones.

            Oh by the way, the race card that you weakly tried to pull? You really are a simplistic specimen if you think that would work.

          • headcrasher

            buckets of ice on my skull? alright, i see how you solver your issues. Also, what exactly is my party?

            im sure you are aware of your issues in your country, but you maybe think its ok that your government does that, because you have the comfort or being able to complain. Even though your country has a history of cracking down protestors as well. And your thousands of cameras in london and throughout the country are for sure also only for security reasons, right? your country is one of the most controlling in the whole EU.
            And as far as i can see now, the EU more and more copies the way of how China controls its people.

            the mentioning of bombing brown people is less a card (more a set of words i was typing down before) but more a citation of george carlin mentioning that america (in cooperation with uk) had only wars with countries inhabiting black people since WWII

          • Riddler

            ‘….alright, i see how you solver your issues….’

            No, not mine, YOUR issues.

            ‘….And your thousands of cameras in london and throughout the country are for sure also only for security reasons, right? your country is one of the most controlling in the whole EU…’

            ‘….the EU more and more copies the way of how China controls its people….’

            Do you see the problem or should i get that bucket of cold water?

          • headcrasher

            so you know how to copy/paste
            your argument?

          • Riddler

            I have no argument. You seem to have problems reading, writing, listening, speaking, thinking.

          • headcrasher

            well, you just take statements out of context, which shows alot of your thinking skills.

            Your comment: ‘….alright, i see how you solver your issues….’
            My comment: im sure you are aware of your issues in your country’ So not you, your country, and not my issues.

            and i dont know if you noticed the events of ACTA which is very similar to the internet surveillance of china. and also the data retention act, which is in most countries in europe even against their constitution and agains the people.
            Also, Snowden said something as well about government surveillance. dont know if you noticed any of those things.

            so next time just admit that you have no idea whats going on in the western world, instead of copy pasting stuff with adding your irrelevant comments that have nothing to do with anything.

          • headcrasher

            i think i made my point clear, i wont comment any further.
            if you still dont understand, change your name from riddler into clueless

          • Riddler

            Deflection deflection and more deflection. You have a hard time sticking to the questions raised and as per usual with mainland chinese, start crying like the little girls you are, about how the UK this, how the UK, that. This is CHINA smack not UK smack. We are discussing China. Which part of that do you NOT understand.

            Now go stand in the corner and don’t move.

          • headcrasher

            alright, your self representation of superiority against other non western people says alot about your country and history.

            China Smack yes, discussing news from China. Does that mean i cannot reflect on other countries? Is that in the terms & conditions that we are not allowed to discuss about other country policies too? Who are you to decide what to discuss, the CCP?

            since the abortions we have been already off topic anyways if you noticed that in your brightness. its about hospital doctors getting stabbed not! forced abortions.
            (yeah, sounds good :/ )

            btw. if you really believe that im chinese or even close related with that country, then you are just stupid.

            Also, what is that about:

            “Now go stand in the corner and don’t move.”

            “Now do something useful, fetch my coffee.”

            trying to show someone who’s boss here?! on a discussion platform? seriously, how old you man/boy?

          • headcrasher

            yes i know you dont, start reading news or go a little into EU regulations.

            there is acta, data retention act and snowden also mentioned something about internet surveillance which btw. mostly came from the uk as far as i remember. but well, you dont really see that in your ignorance, don’t you?

            the date retention act is also against most eu country constitutions / against the law.

            it seems more like you have problems realizing what is going on over there.

            also, taking statements out of context does not doesnt show your brightness either

            your copy paste thing:
            ‘….alright, i see how you solver your issues….’

            my statement:
            “im sure you are aware of your issues in your country,…,”
            point is, YOUR COUNTRY.

            finish reading a sentence before you flame all over the place.

            and still, what is your point by copy pasting my point and adding retarded comments that have nothing to do with it? read some news and go outside your comfort zone, so you may understand that in the EU things are not as good as you might think

          • Guest

            i live in EU and things are not as bad as you think either, by far better than in china, and yes, before you ask, i’ve lived even in china.

          • headcrasher

            sure, but the tendencies go into this particular direction.
            not that bad, but getting worse and worse compared to the last decade. this is what the people in the eu have to face at one point. the eu is more and more spending on internal security which is internal surveillance of the people. the regulations i mentioned before, are one result of this. acta maybe didnt pass, but there will be another version of the same thing, that will pass.

          • headcrasher

            so you know how to copy/paste
            your argument?

          • Probotector

            In Germany, in the 1940s, it was the law for Jews to be killed. Hey, different countries have different laws right?

          • headcrasher

            hey great argument, you are almost as smart a riddler.
            answering statements with “. . . ,right?”
            mentioning jews and the 1940 thing is not an counter argument for everything.
            please let me know your idea of the reason for the one child policy

          • Probotector

            How is it not valid? Because it’s from the past and another country. You just said we can’t criticise other nations for their laws. However, not all laws are fair and just, and the one child policy, and the barbarism in which it is sometimes implemented, parallels the holocaust in many ways.

            My idea of the reason for the one child policy. Mao Zedong encouraged the chinese to prolifically breed in order to swell their numbers to create a massive work force and army. After his time, the government knew it was a fuck up, so the needed t reduce the population somehow if they were going to sustain their society.

            However, as Riddler and myself have pointed out, forced abortion (which at the point of pregnancy when they’re actually performing it is murder, btw) is not the answer. Strilisation, is also not the answer. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound. Until recently, I thought they just fined them, at most put them in jail, until I found out what really happens. To organisations like the UN and amnesty international, this would qualify as crimes against humanity. Frankly, this is another example of how the Chinese government fucked up and is making it’s people pay for it.

          • headcrasher

            well, didnt really say not valid, but most of the counter arguments im reading always compare things with nazi germany. But comparing a forced abortion with genocide is a little far fetched.

            Im not arguing that FAs are good. The point at the beginning was not that forced abortions are terrible it was a different one.

            Riddler was complaining why nobody addresses this issue in the comments. (Which btw has nothing to do with the article above what so ever). I just tried to point out why no one is complaining about that unless they see direct pictures of how it actually looks like.

            Yes, people also can pay. depending in which city they are living the fees are higher or lower. also i heard a place people can go to register their child to an other family so no need for the fee. but i just heard that no proof or so from my side.

            I was working for amnesty before, so i do know about their point of view. Also, I support to find a different solution for this population problem, but that sounds pretty eugenic.

            I remember there was an article on chinasmack about a village where the abortion was, taking out the baby and put it next to the mother in the hospital.
            For sure you know that one

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/7-month-pregnant-woman-forced-into-labor-to-abort-unborn-baby.html

            I guess this article is more suitable to discuss that subject than this one.

          • Riddler

            Well the story is about doctors getting stabbed all over the place and people wondering why. Forced abortion is carried out by doctors. Or maybe vets. Or both. Do you see a connection between forced abortion and doctors? No. Ask whuddysac. Even he, in a moment of clarity, may be able to peer at this. Myopically.

          • Riddler

            Your post from yesterday:

            ‘…if you want we can go back to topic forced abortion again, since i think we started from there….’

            Today:

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/storie...

            ‘…..I guess this article is more suitable to discuss that subject than this one…’

          • jixiang

            It’s ridicolous to blame Mao Zedong for China being overcrowded. China always was overcrowded, and it’s population increase under Mao Zedong was within the norm for a poor country where people want to have lots of children. If there are too many people in China, it’s really not because “the government fucked up”.

          • Probotector

            You’re right, I forgot to mention how many millions he killed.

          • Riddler

            BLASPHEMY!

          • Riddler

            So what is the reason?

          • jixiang

            Asking what the reason is for China having 1.4 billion people is a bit like asking why India has 1.2 billion, Japan 130 million or France 60 million. It just happened. China is large and the Eastern half where most people live is extremely fertile.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            You didn’t actually answer the question.You just put up facts that any child can do.

          • jixiang

            I did answer. The country is large and in parts extremely fertile.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            And that is all?

          • jixiang

            Yes, that is all. What other explanations do you want. Tell me, why does India have 1.2 billion people? Are there any really profound explanations, or is it just that the subcontinent is big and fertile.

          • Joseph Lau

            Actually I was just being curious as I don’t know anything in-depth about it. I was hoping to get a bit more info about it from people like you.

          • Joseph Lau

            some outsiders have a hard time understanding China. I don’t know much also as I am from HK. I just hope that sometimes outsiders realize that they have to look at this historically rich country in another perspective. Not just the western point of view.I hope that more conversations about China should take place as I also consider myself ignorant about it. Thanks for voicing this out bro.

          • jixiang

            Hi Joseph, I am glad you found my comment helpful. It’s funny that you should say that I show a different perspective from the Western one, as I am actually a Westerner myself. However I live in China and I try not to let my biases affect my judgement. Rather, I try and base myself on facts. Those never change.

            If you are interested, you can see more of my opinions on China at my blog: http://www.thecapitalinthenorth.blogspot.com

          • Joseph rodriguez

            It is because people fucked each other a lot! Literally! It is amazing what boredom can do.

          • Riddler

            What’s YOUR view of the one child policy?

          • headcrasher

            in a certain extend necessary

          • Riddler

            What? I am not even going to correct your English. Why empower stupidity….?

          • headcrasher

            gonna tell me about your UKness and your awesome english skills again?

          • Riddler

            Not at all, just told you about your useless skills. Again.

          • headcrasher

            haha, yeah right, nice try mr. uk

          • Riddler

            You are welcome. Now do something useful, fetch my coffee.

          • headcrasher

            would suit you a black or a brown one?

          • Riddler

            Unless there’s a thing called yellow coffee, make it with milk, 2 sugars. Wash your hands first.

          • jixiang

            Is it NOT the law that women who break the one child policy should have forced abortions. The law is that they receive a fine. The forced abortions are a violation of national policy carried out sporadically in backward areas. Let’s get this straight.

          • headcrasher

            in my mind, forced means, something you dont want to do but you have to or get physically made to do it.
            that means, if you cant pay the fine, which in some areas can be up to a couple of hundred thousands, you have to make an abortion, if you want it or not. (Since it is the cheaper solution).

            Since im not an expert of course, please let me know what happens if you cant pay the fine, because you are poor and have no money.

            if we talk about those backward areas, that do it by physical force, then yes, of course. but as i posted before somewhere here, and article about exactly such an abortion in a rural area. NO DISCUSSION that this is a terrible thing.

            But if we talk about those cruelties in rural areas, then we also can talk about how nice the construction companies are, by driving over protesters heads with a truck or a caterpillar without even being fined or going to jail.

          • takasar1

            Why cant some people accept that when others compare with civilised western countries they are simply using them as a benchmark and not taking cheap-shots like they themselves choose to do. Fact is that the problems china is going through; THE WEST HAS GONE THROUGH THEM BEFORE. As a result, china can LEARN how Britain or America SOLVED these problems such as corruption, improper implementation of law and pollution. Additionally, they can look at problems they have not yet run into/are about to be faced with, such as; population time-bombs, heavily leveraged banks, deflation spirals, asset market collapses, etc, and make provisions for these problems. history is a huge learning/stealing/’borrowing’ cycle. Do you really expect china to solve problems it took other countries centuries to solve, in only 50 years (for 20 of those they were ruled by a maniac)?

            I don’t think you understood what the person who said that sentence meant.

          • Riddler

            Whose fault is it that china decided to remain in the medieval period for so long while other countries were progressing. You want us to sympathise with that? What happened about the 5,000 years of civilisation? Down the gutter along with the oil used in food. I mean seriously. One minute you attack us, then you ask for understanding because you just opened up shop recently and have YEARS of catching up to do.

            Man up for goodness sake. I don’t know whether to feel sorry for you or to throw a bucket of ice cold water over you.

            ps. Normal/rich families in Britain, have their sons do the most menial jobs to make MEN of them. They always have done. Read this history. They don’t buy ferraris and lambos and pink shirts and make pussies of their sons. You may want to take a deeper look into how children in real families are raised and STOP watching the crap you obviously do on tv about the west. Believe that and you are way out there. Which you are.

          • jixiang

            It is silly to say that China “chose to remain in the middle ages”. The whole of Asia remained in the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, while only a few Western countries started to progress with the renaissance and the enlightenment from about 1500. There was no way China’s leaders could have arbitrarily decided to imitate that development around the same time. They were barely even aware of it to begin with.

          • Riddler

            So why is china the most f’d country in Asia?

          • jixiang

            Most f’d up in what way? How is it more messed up than Cambodia, or India. You are only comparing it to Japan and South Korea, right? And perhaps Singapore.

          • Riddler

            And perhaps the rest of the world.

          • jixiang

            Then you clearly haven’t been to most of the world very much.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            China’s problems are more notable because it has great economic repercussions in the world. You are belittling by comparing it to Singapore, Japan and South Korea. Seriously, what is with that inferiority complex?

          • Joseph rodriguez

            So the reason for being left behind is inherent. Everybody here thought at that time they where at the center of everything. Hence the name “middle Kingdom” Japan was lucky. because despite their isolationist/superiority belief, they accepted the existence of steamboats and its technological supriority when they saw it with their own eyes.Oh wait, most Chinese people still have the notion that they were and should still be at the center of everything. This is evident by the ridiculous circus of disputes at the South China Sea.

          • jixiang

            The Japanese government closed off the country to all contact with the outside world for 200 years, until in the 19th century the American navy forced them to open up under threat of violence. After that they did start modernizing very rapidly.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            it was a smarter choice wasn’t it? Except the fact that they used their modernized army to wreak havoc in Asia.I don’t agree on that one.

          • jixiang

            Well, like I said it wasn’t a choice, they were forced by the US to open up.

            After that they modernized fast, but it is easy in a smaller country like Japan, with a long tradition of homogeneity. In China the empire and all its baggage could not be dispensed with so quickly and easily.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            This world is an interesting place indeed.

          • takasar1

            Typically annoying, pointless rant. Firstly, I don’t care
            and I’m not asking for understanding either, simply giving you reasons, reasons backed up by history. I doubt that the chinese were complaining during britain’s millennia-long dark ages so its quite shocking to see why someone who apparently lives on the other side of the world has to care so much about the ‘injustices of chinese society’. Do they really mean that much to you? Besides you should be grateful to the chinese and their ‘5000 year culture’, gutter-oil and all. Without gunpowder, what colonial empires could have existed?

            Now, the reason why I doubt you are british is because I was educated in a wonderfully boring (yet delightful) private school up in Edgbaston called ‘King Edwards Birmingham’. If being pampered makes you a ‘pussy’ then I guess the british really are, as I have heard many an aussie say, a nation of ‘pussies’. Half the the lads I went to school with, from ‘shells’ to ‘UMs’ to ‘Divs’, were so pampered they couldn’t even tie their own shoe laces! A couple of kids in my CAS class couldn’t use a washing machine (even with a manual). These were the same kids that in the final year of sixth form, began showing up with fancy cars petitioning the chief master for a parking place on the school grounds in attempts to attract girls from the adjacent school! Really, you either know nothing about Britain or you don’t know anything about the super rich. If this truly does equate to the ‘honest’ ‘traditional’ ‘british’ upbringing, then I am glad I’m Swiss. Stop watching old t.v series about working class Britain and actually go and live there.

          • Riddler

            Everything you have said is opinionated drivel disguised as experience. You also show your immaturity and possibly age. Tell me, which year were you there? Be careful in your reply.

          • takasar1

            Oh and of course everything you said was 100% neutral,
            correct and had no loopholes in it what-so-ever. Something about a kettle, a pot and the colour black comes to mind. I give you answers and I am ‘showing my age and maturity’? on the contrary, your inability to understand or acknowledge speaks more about your age and maturity. I had the fortune to be there in the first year that they adopted the IB. you can work the rest out.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            It is 4000 years at most. Not 5000. It was officially changed to 5000 years after Jiang Zemin visited Egypt and he realized there is a civilization with a longer claim. Hence he revised history with the snap of his fingers and here we are now…

          • takasar1

            firstly, i dont care whether it is 5000 or 4000 or 10000, it doesnt matter to me. if you want to make a point, make it to the guy i replied to. secondly, i dont buy into any of this ‘civilization’ crap because a) what is a civilization? except an abstract notion that is linked to culture, people and history. b) how can a the length of a civilization be reliably measured? it cant be. c) modern history is one of the biggest forms of indoctrination available in the free world and dumbasses are unknowingly being dragged into its vortex day after day

          • Joseph rodriguez

            China won’t learn from the west like that.The leadership will insist on solutions with a mixture of “Chinese Characteristics” which means……..

          • Riddler

            ‘its just the chinese feel the need to air their dirty laundry 24/7…’

            Oh goodie, so maybe you will enlighten us all on Tibet and East Turkistan. You appear more honest than the others here. What’s going on there? How have things improved for the indigenous people of those lands.Why is china conducting genocide? Looking forward to a detailed answer about china. Not America. Not Britain. china please. Thank you.

          • takasar1

            I would think it was obvious…china needs resources; the contested western parts of its domain have them. Call it amoral, immoral or perfectly moral, your choice but these are the reasons. as for whether they have improved lives or not, lets just say that things are better than they were 20-30 years ago.

            Anything more?

          • Riddler

            So you admit that china is plundering the resources of East Turkistan? Forcing local girls to marry Han chinese? Rape, arrest without trial, executions, stealing land.

            Because china needs resources. Yes?

            ps. ‘anything more’ is incorrect.

            Thank me now for this tip.

          • takasar1

            Lol, ‘admit’, you make it sound like I am a ccp lawer. You should learn to be more neutral yourself. Its obvious they are there for resources. As for ‘stealing land’, don’t they do that to their own people as well? Same applies to ‘arrest without trial’.
            As for rape and forced marriages, I doubt the ccp cares about trapping a han and a tibetan in a room and forcing them to have sex. And then repeating this over a million times with other people.

            Not really, it is perfectly correct

            Anything more?

          • Riddler

            Anything more than what?

          • takasar1

            it is simply my sign off…

          • whuddyasack

            “As for rape and forced marriages, I doubt the ccp cares about trapping a
            han and a tibetan in a room and forcing them to have sex.”

            I agree, this has got to be one of the “Riddler’s” weirdest, creepiest arguments of all. Just shows what a dirty mind he really has, where flies and roaches dwell.

          • Riddler

            Tweedle dee and tweede dum, you are hopeless when posting independently, together you are totally useless. Flies and roaches? You sitting in your bedroom or something?

          • Riddler
          • Probotector

            It’s best to go low tech these days

          • Riddler

            Indeed. I’m off for a few hours. Eattot is on page one. I trust you will take care of the hounds while I’m away:-)

          • 用开水烫我!

            you go die, snob dog!
            do not ever write anything to me or of me.
            nothing can change the truth is i hate you, snob dog!

          • Riddler

            Hate leads to anger, anger leads to suffering padiewan.

          • 用开水烫我!

            cheap snob dog, fuck with yourself.

          • Joseph rodriguez

            Priceless!!!

          • Riddler

            I see where you are coming from on this one but it doesn’t work. You can’t simply live a life of subjugation simply out of fear of retribution from the government you have entrusted to manage your country.

            As the saying goes, a coward dies a thousand deaths, a soldier dies but once.

          • takasar1

            a)
            The ccp was never entrusted to run the country. Granted
            they have gotten more sane as time has gone on but no one gave them the right to run china. People just live with it because their lives have gotten better than they were under mao

            b)
            It is very easy to play soldier when you are
            young and carefree (I have several friends who see themselves as confrontational revolutionaries) but when you have a wife, parents, parents-in-law, children, siblings etc, you must act responsibly because the ccp have a track record of coming for you, personally, last. Others bite the dust before-hand. If random foreigners, who cannot even imagine living one day in your shoes, call you a coward because of that? So what, you have to survive.

          • Riddler

            Your point?

          • takasar1

            re-read after you have read your own comment

          • Riddler

            Ok done. Your point?

          • takasar1

            i explained what ‘left’ and ‘right’ meant in this context. and then the concept of ‘white racism’. you understand?

          • headcrasher

            check out richard stallman, the founder of GNU.

            he is not using a mobile phone since according to him, it is a tracking device with malicious features. He means, every phone can be a bug even withouta trojan on the device. He made that statement about 5years ago as far
            as i can remember.

            Also, need to add, that and android phone or tablet has to come with gps. (this is one of googles rules to use android for free as a manufacturer). Which indicates that google just always wants you to know where you are.

            Even without gps, your phone company can still track you down your phones location through the SP antennas.

            This article on the telegraph is nothing more then just spreading fear of those “bad” countries, or better “the enemy countries of the west”.

            Since western countries do that all the time anyways. Besides spreading fear, spying on the public i mean.

          • Claude

            Don’t you just turn the GPS off on a Android device, I did.

            Are you using a VPN to change your IP address from the sites you comment on?

          • headcrasher

            turning off your gps doesnt really help. that just means it doesnt run permanently. software still could access it. Can see it on my phone sometimes that gps suddenly is on for a couple of minutes.

            the post above was related to government spying. in this context i say it is useless to turn off your gps since it is still able to send your gps position.

            for more infos about what phone companies are capable of, check this ted talk from a german guy talking about the new data retention law in europe. pretty interesting

            http://www.ted.com/talks/malte_spitz_your_phone_company_is_watching.html

          • Claude

            Thanks for the TED vid, I’ll look at it in a couple of days.

          • When a man runs into a hospital, when a man runs around in public with a
            hammer, it affects everyone. I could understand if it were a gun. But a
            hammer? A knife? My goodness, try that nonsense in Britain and even the
            females in the UK would deal with it.

            My old next door neighbour and good mate in England was a consultant for the NHS, the hospital he worked at some smackhead scumbag came in spitting blood at everyone (he was HIV positive!), my mate at risk to himself but thinking of others, smashed this piece of crap no good square in the nose and knocked him right out,a tall big guy, but certainly no athlete, a beer gut from a love of real ale and food. This it doesnt affect me attitude is nonsense….

          • Riddler

            Let them get on with this attitude. When it comes back to bit, it will take a chunk out of their asses. What asses they have.

          • jixiang

            Aboreted phoetuses are NOT the same thing as a dead human being killed after it was born.

      • Riddler

        So there are at least three who would not like to stand against forced abortions.

      • whuddyasack

        So does that mean that you’re going to pay for all the extra Chinese mouths that need feeding? Like really…? Really…?

        Those against the One Child Policy honestly make me sick. You know why? Because most are China/Chinese haters who’ve never done a thing for the Chinese, but hated the very poor and hungry AND illegal immigrants, pollution, prostitutes, beggars, thieves, the starving. Most importantly, they hate the OVERPOPULATION.

        If you really cared about OCP, a lot of these problems would have been lessened. Yes, there’s a solution besides forced abortion, but unfortunately the world is too small hearted and narrow minded to care. In the end, we’re left with 2 choices. One Child Policy or war to reduce the population. The OCP is the better of the two because it prevents babies from entering a world of suffering, a world that is hell on earth. That’s the sad reality, and I wished there could be another way. But I can understand why it’s done. The world is getting crowded.

        • Riddler

          First of all, get this into your skull that I don’t hate china. You would be shocked to know what I do for china and those chinese people that you pretend don’t exist and wish didn’t exist. Don’t try transference on me. That is your mindset. In fact, most expats I know do more for the environment in china in a day than you do in a lifetime.

          One child policy or war? These are, in your narrow head, the only viable solutions? Let me ask you something. What if you had been conceived after your mother had given birth to a sibling and it was YOU that had to be…put down. What then? Answer this directly.

          ps. now go and make my coffee and get me a cigarette.

    • Riddler
      • whuddyasack

        Riddler, I wonder why you pick such a “clever” name for yourself when it’s clear you can’t use the pea between your ears.

        That report has very little basis on reality when it comes to China, and I knew you’d bring it up. Hence why I tried to show you what a direct genocide really looked like in Sri Lanka. Now can you produce recent cases with photos or videos of Chinese genocide, can the researchers at genocidewatch produce it too?

        Here’s how you tell that this report isn’t that neutral. In that report, China (and is worse than countries like Mexico and Russia, like really?) is in the preparation phase of genocide, the perpetrators being the Chinese army and the victims being “uighur”. However, in the Philippines, the genociders are Abu Sayefs and the victims are Christian Filipinos.

        As we all know, Uighur terrorists kill Chinese civilians in huge numbers, they kill other “non-complying” Uighur minding their own business and have preached for genocide in the past, especially against the Hui.

        So how the hell are the Uighur terrorists victims but Abu Sayefs the mass murderers when they are pretty much the same thing? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that the CCP is great or innocent, I’m saying the report is saying they are much worse than some other nations, whose victims matter equally, such as Mexico. It also has some double standards in selecting who’s the victim

        • Riddler

          Deflect.

          • Robert Rou

            And can you tell us why anyone in the world should give a rat’s ass what a Brit like yourself has to say about genocide, given your centuries of imperial sins in pursuit of empire?

          • Probotector

            Britain never committed genocide, you moron, and any oppression committed by the British can only be argued as a ‘sins of the father’ archaic argument, vis-a-vis China’s CURRENT oppression. This would therefore nullify your argument.

            However, if you’re an Asian-American, can we hold you to account for all of America’s crimes, (which many would argue dwarf those of Britain)? Oh God are we really going to go there again? You know, Robert Meat, we could go round and round arguing this, but it’s ultimately pointless.

            Btw, Riddler is not a white Brit, so it’s kid of ridiculous arguing the oppression of the white British with him, when it’s more than likely his ancestors were oppressed in some way either by the British or by those they colluded with.

          • Boob

            Your ability to discount atrocities committed by other governments by referencing periods of time is what makes the foreign perspective very easy to discount in any assessment of China. Without defending the current government or glossing over facts, if you don’t think the British committed committed genocide or germ warfare, read and educate yourself with respect to aboriginal persons in North America and Australia. Absolutely disgraceful.

          • Riddler

            Oh oh, they are coming out of the woodworks now! The people’s internet army is on the loose. You just cannot face it can you?

            Boobie, can you just address what is going on in Tibet and East Turkistan TODAY please? Just answer it instead of giving us a distorted history lesson.

            Direct answer. Tibet. East Turkistan which you like to call xinjiang. Answer this.

          • Yes too many paid shills on here as of late!!!

          • Probotector

            Yes, anyone who disagrees with a liberal is uneducated, because you like to play the “everyone knows…” card.

          • takasar1

            and republicans seem to entitle themselves to the ‘we are perfectly innocent until proven otherwise card’ along with the ‘white racism card’

          • Probotector

            How would I know? It’s not my country.

          • takasar1

            i’m not saying it is. i’m simply giving the counter-argument

          • Probotector

            Counter argument to what? All you guys can argue is “you’re uneducated” or “you’re a racist”. In any case, what have Republicans got to do with the oppression of the British Empire? It seems you just want to make random arguments against “Western things”.

          • takasar1

            When have I ever accused anyone of being racist/uneducated? If I have I genuinely thought so and I doubt I have. Stop assuming things, I wasn’t trying to make a connection, I was just bored up until recently and tried to liven things up by replying in a way in which I knew you would reply to me. ‘western things’, lol, I am half western! I have nothing but respect for some of the things Europe achieved 1600-2000 but that doesn’t mean I am going to hold my tongue and not point out hypocrisy, bad governance, racism and terror. I am equally critical and about the chinese when I have to be. It seems you just want to make random arguments against ‘chinese things’

          • Probotector

            So bitching about white racism is ‘livening things up because you’re bored’? seems like you need to get a life. How am I arguing about random Chinese things? You approached me.

          • takasar1

            If you can bitch about ‘uneducated liberals’, why cant I bitch
            about white racism? Somehow I don’t think you should be talking about ‘getting a life’ since you are wasting hours reading up on what random chinese people who don’t know or care about your existence think? Its like me going and reading YouTube comments. Relatively pointless. “How am I arguing about random Chinese things?”, simple, in the same way I am arguing ‘against random western things’.

          • Probotector

            Well I do have a life, but the same can be said of anyone who regularly comments on CS. What I argue about isn’t random, it’s either related to the article on CS or related to what someone said. You bringing up how the Republican party is racist had nothing to do with what I have been saying. I don’t even know that much about them, I’m not from America, so why would you bring that up? Was it because you think all whites are American, or because all Westerners are the same? Way to generalise there, and you’re calling whites racist?

            Now, is white racism really that much of a problem for you on a daily basis, or do you simply believe that people who disagree with you are being racist to the part of you that’s not “half western”?

          • takasar1

            Exactly, just because I have a few hours free doesn’t mean I do not have life. Well, you made a comment about the political left wing (liberals, democrats etc) and then I retaliated by making a comment about the political right wing (republicans, conservatives etc). it has nothing to do with America, ‘republican’ is a term used to refer to people who lean to the right, just like ‘liberal’ is used to refer to those on the left. It has NOTHING to do with America in this context.

            Additionally, ‘white racism’ in this context doesn’t mean
            racist Caucasians, it refers to the rather popular new ideology among right wingers these days that refers to the notion that racism today is taken to mean ‘anti-white’ and that double-standards now exist. An example is if a white guy called a black guy ‘n***er’ live on t.v and/or a black guy made a similar remark about a white guy (‘white bas***d), the white guy would get blamed but the black guy wouldn’t receive the same level of punishment. I am simply evoking political stereotypes, like you were. Nothing else.

            I could answer to your last paragraph and conclude with a
            witty question/statement but I don’t see a reason to anymore. You didn’t understand and I already explained everything above.

          • Riddler

            Stll doesn’t make any sense. Want to try again and stick to the point?

          • takasar1

            do you want me to start from the french revolution for you?? i can then teach you about the ‘left’ and the ‘right’ as well as the latest arguments coming out of the european right.

          • Riddler

            How about you start with Mao’s revolution since we are on china smack?

          • takasar1

            well i cant, since the splitting of a house into ‘left’ and ‘right’ was begun in the french revolution…

          • Riddler

            And splitting society into fragments is a chinese speciality. Again, what’s your point? You are talking but saying nothing. Metaphorically speaking.

          • takasar1

            you are either paranoid, an illiterate or a dyslexic, how can you still not understand? on the contrary, i am talking, you just are not listening. i explained to you, genius, where the political ‘left’ and the ‘political ‘right’ originated from. that is all, take your insecurities else-where and stop assuming things. this is why one should never intrude on other people’s arguments without reading the entire entire exchange. you end up sounding challenged.

          • Riddler

            “…. you end up sounding challenged….”

            As opposed to mentally challenged like yourself?

          • takasar1

            better mentally challenged than purely ‘challenged’ in every aspect imaginable.

          • Probotector

            It seems like you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • whuddyasack

            I understood perfectly. Damn, it must be because I’m Asian. We’re really smart. :-)

          • Riddler

            We are on CS. Our arguments are rather specific. It is you who gets random.

          • takasar1

            i doubt that. i also doubt you understand irony

          • whuddyasack

            Well said. And I agree about the racist accusations. It’s the card used when all others have failed. Unfortunately, it’s a card commonly used amongst “White” folk. When losing any argument, they need to pretend that you’re some victim of race complexities even when you’re not.

            And lol at people assuming what you are without even knowing you. Sometimes you wonder how they come to such conclusions. Not everyone that disagrees with them is “Wumao”, or Chinese in the literal sense.

          • Riddler

            ‘i’m simply giving the counter-argument’

            So, THAT’S what it was meant to be?

          • whuddyasack

            That’s true. I believe that an overwhelmingly, unnaturally strong victim complex is also etched into the White man’s psyche. The race card is often brought up, either as victims or as oppressors.

            They see everything in racial terms, I can’t even begin to count how many racially charged articles there are published in American media for the sole purpose of race-baiting. And even if there was no race baiting involved, the flies would come to spread the disease.

          • mr.wiener

            They and us hmm? *tsk*

          • whuddyasack

            My apologies. I tend to forget.

          • Riddler

            How about Tibet and xinjiang?

          • Riddler

            ‘Btw, Riddler is not a white Brit, so it’s kind of ridiculous arguing the oppression of the white British with him, when it’s more than likely his ancestors were oppressed in some way either by the British or by those they colluded with.’

            Oh but wait, he or his ilk will now say something about self-hate or some ill conceived rebuttal.

            ‘Robert Meat’ thanks for the translation! Puts him in new light..

          • whuddyasack

            Not really. I always knew you were Black, hence why I called you Travis Einstein, the Black Einstein from the hood yooooo. Whether you like it or hate it, there is some truth in IQ discrepancies amongst the races, though Black and White are not so different.

          • Riddler

            Yes, Black and White ARE rather intelligent. The discrepancy surfaces with you yellow ones. For once we are in agreement. Should i get the chair and rope for ya?

          • mr.wiener

            I’m actually a fan of the British empire. While they didn’t do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they usually put in a top notch infrastructure [the better to gain access to resources]. In any country they colonized.
            Their hand’s however were not clean. No one’s ever are, and this is not an invitation for tit for tat historical genocidal incidents body counting.

          • whuddyasack

            “This is not an invitation for tit for tat historical genocidal incidents body counting.”

            Well said. People really need to stop bringing up past or “perceived” genocides and demonize an entire people with it. None of us are directly involved, and in most cases it’s all in the past or sensationalized. Whoever believes in sins of the father, and punishing others for it need to punish themselves first. None of us are clean if such judgments are used.

            And I agree, the British empire does deserve it’s respect. A case of giving credit where credit is due.

          • Riddler

            ‘And I agree, the British empire does deserve it’s respect. A case of giving credit where credit is due’

            Well done. Now bow.

          • Robert Rou

            Were they just “perceived” genocides? Someone should go talk to the Indians/Pakistanis, the so-called “jewel of the British Empire” for over 2 centuries.

            Or how about Orwell’s account vast exploitation by the British in Burma?

            Or even the dead Chinese that were mowed down British machine guns in Wuhan 1925? You’re should go check out what even the uprising Chiang Kai Shek said about that.

            These are just a few select examples, some of which were right on Chinese soil, but you seem to be oblivious about. You should know your own history before you talk about YOUR own perceptions regarding genocide.

          • Riddler

            Or even the dead Chinese that were mowed down British machine guns in Wuhan 1925?

            And yet you failed to learn from the experience.

          • whuddyasack

            I apologize for not making my statements clearer. What I should have said was this:

            “People really need to stop bringing up Britain’s[sic] past or China’s [sic] “perceived” genocides.

            Either way, I’m a fan of yours truly so if I sound like I’m somehow opposing you, please don’t take it that way. I’ve never had any disagreement with you and I truly feel we often are talking about the same thing and reaching the same conclusions. In fact, I’ve seen you being ganged up by a few of the animals on this forum, and I’m always impressed how well you take it.

            In this case, I’m arguing against using a “Sins of the Father” mindset. What I mean is since us Chinese aren’t really condemning the British on their undeniable past genocides and misdeeds, they should likewise respect Chinese people as individuals.

            Now as for British genocides, I’m very well familiar with them. Just taking the high road to show the limeys some form of respect ;-)

            By the way, you might want to read this. And to all those White guys still mouth foaming and hating and hell-bent on blaming the evil Chinese, the article I’m about to convey is essential:

            http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenanderson/adventure/page10.html

            http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=8976&t=1

            “When the West is sanctimonious about the Chinese takeover of Tibet, it deliberately forgets the first invasion of that country by the British in 1903-04. That expedition was led by Colonel Francis Edward Younghusband, and the mastermind of it was the viceroy of India, Lord Curzon.”

          • Robert Rou

            “And I agree, the British empire does deserve it’s respect. A case of giving credit where credit is due.”

            That they were able to perfect imperialism/colonialism, exploitation, and genocide for so very long and so very well, and leave the Germans and Japanese holding the bag. Amazing, isn’t it? Yes I do give credit where credit is due.

          • Probotector

            Germany and Japan just weren’t good enough.

          • whuddyasack

            Indeed we should also give credit to the British for wronging more people than any other on Earth. Being the largest empire in history means housing skeletons in the closets is inevitable. This I’ve never disagreed with. However, we also need to give credit to the British for providing things like education and medicine to their colonies. In the same way, the same could be said of what the Chinese have done for the Tibetans/Uighurs; jobs, infrastructure, medical facilities, the list goes on. Giving and taking, I prefer the Chinese civilization miles ahead of the British one; I also prefer the Japanese and American civilizations.

            I’m just against the sins of the father argument, and we need to consider all the advantages a country or government provides

          • Riddler

            ‘… I prefer the Chinese civilization miles ahead of the British one…’

            And you are yapping in which language right now?

          • Robert Rou

            “I’m actually a fan of the British empire.”

            Yes, we know this already because, if you’re an Opium Wars denier and on the far-right fringe, than this should be fairly obvious

          • mr.wiener

            Have I ever denied this or intimated any right wing thought?
            Grow up please and stop picking fights.

          • Robert Rou

            Re: opium wars – yes you have
            Re: right wing thoughts – while you may not personally express it, your defense of those that do and your defense of that which is indefensible means that you are complicit.

            “Grow up please”
            Relevant advice for man insolent enough to fabricate quotes when he has no business doing so.

          • mr.wiener

            Re: Opium wars- Please quote me where i have.
            Re: Right wing thought- I kick trolls out of here from both sides of the argument, sorry if you only notice the asian ones.
            Fabricating Quotes:
            http://quotes.dictionary.com/There_is_no_such_thing_as_the_Queens

            Sorry if i paraphrased this from memory in my original posting.

          • Robert Rou

            “The foreigners tricked and stole all their ideas from the Chinese [and sold them drugs too]”

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/pictures/chinese-worker-trapped-in-pit-dead-after-2-hour-rescue.html#comment-1049086593

            British tea is one of the earliest examples of Britain’s industrial espionage of China.

            Sold them drugs. Opium Wars. Poisoning on a massive scale.

            Just to let you know, I will be seeking moderating powers on this site.

          • Probotector

            Poor poor China

          • Riddler

            I like that. Opium Wars denier. What are you attempting to equate this with? You go on to accuse people being on the right fringe where you yourself reside, which is painfully obvious. Mr. Meat, you are new to all this. Careful where you step in accusing people of political leanings.

            No one denies the opium ‘incidents’ but we do question the detail. What’s the matter? Missing the British are we?

          • Ask south and west in your homeland first.

          • Riddler

            “…. Brit like yourself has to say about genocide, given your centuries…”

            Mr. Meat, I haven’t lived for centuries. I deal with the present in order to make change for the future. You are still sobbing about what happened in the past and if you’re not careful, the Present might come along and slap you in the face. Twice. Back hander. Think about it. Japan is getting stronger everyday, while you guys sit around moping about the past. America is in the region with some serious hardware. Your Asian neighbours hate you anyway. Russia is staring at you malevolently. India would love the opportunity to shit on you.

            Is there anyone, that your country is not pissing off?

            Oh and Britain, almost forgot. Jardine Matheson? Name ring a bell? Hong Kong? Remember how you all thought Britain wanted those Islands off Shangahai? Instead Britain took Hong Kong and you GAVE it thinking it was a useless piece of land. And then Britain decided to burn down the palace in beijing just to teach you a lesson?

            You brought up the historical element while discarding your present atrocities. It may well be that your memories are about to be refreshed in a rather painful way.

          • takasar1

            japan isnt really getting stronger. its in a state of permanent decline. and they, as well as every other neighbor rely on china economically. america cant focus on asia unless they cut israel out of the picture and russia and india hate america just as much as china

          • Riddler

            Permanent decline? You should read a little more.
            Give it a few years, and watch china’s fake economical status go with the wind.
            America IS focussed on Asia, china specifically. You might want to take a brief look at the transfer of hardware to china’s neighbours by America and their current fleet stationed hereabouts. Russia and India may ‘hate’ America but they despise china given their respective border issues.

            Anything else?

          • takasar1

            On the contrary, you should read beyond the headlines. Regardless of whatever fiscal and monetary stimulus Abe comes up with, he has done very little to address a) his ‘third’ arrow (structural reforms) and b) the near irreversible population decline.

            ‘fake economic status’? wow. I wont answer that, instead if
            you want to elaborate on it, I’ll give you the chance and then pick it apart.

            No, no, no. transfer of hard-ware has nothing to do with
            (quality wise, the Japanese navy is already better than china’s), it is simply an attempt to buy precious time before china bridges the technology gap. America, if it wants to stop china, must focus in asia immediately, yet it cant, it isn’t fully energy independent yet, so for the time being it is also drawn to middle-eastern affairs much more than it would like to be. From Israel to iran to Syria, because the Americans try to paint themselves as the ‘greater good’ they have their hands full everywhere and they seem destined to piss more and more people off. As for Russia, neither of us know what putin really thinks but we can tell from his actions that Russia is attempting to get closer to china instead of America. India does have a border problem with the chinese, they do distrust them but to think they are more or less friendly towards the Americans is sheer foolishness.

            Anything else?

          • Riddler

            Anything else? Yes, to begin with, refrain from biting my style, it is rather unique so come with something original.

          • takasar1

            Fine, I apologize

            Would that be all?/Anything more?

          • Riddler

            No need to apologise. It’s all just a little needling, don’t take things to heart.

            ps. Coffee. Two sugars. Milk. Stir it anti-clockwise.

          • Robert Rou

            “Oh and Britain, almost forgot. Jardine Matheson? Name ring a bell? Hong
            Kong? Remember how you all thought Britain wanted those Islands off
            Shangahai? Instead Britain took Hong Kong and you GAVE it thinking it
            was a useless piece of land. And then Britain decided to burn down the
            palace in beijing just to teach you a lesson?”

            Serving up bullshit that stank so bad it wreaks to high hell. I can only wonder what you’re going to tell us next. That you’re from planet Krypton and that you can fly? Give me a break.

          • Probotector

            White racism again? Or is it Republicans gnawing at you?

          • Riddler

            You fail to address the question you yourself quoted and then go on a rant about serving up bullshit.

            What’s the matter? Does the Jardine Matheson mention make you and your squatting buddies twitch all at the same time? In particular James Matheson.

            Wooooaaaah. Now you are really seething huh? He DID rather shape the future right? Old James Matheson? Who’d have thought they would one day become the Jardines? Remember what china tried to do? Recently? Remember the response of the Jardine Corporation? You just never learn do you? Don’t mess with the Jardines. And you and your ilk think the UK is finished?

          • mr.wiener

            So you are an expert on tea because you are of Chinese ancestory?

        • Ami

          I need to see some facts about that murderous uighur claim. Are you talking about those riots that happened years ago? I agree that what China is doing in Xinjiang or Tibet=/= genocide (which is mass murder/rape) but it is definitely intended cultural dilution with minor oppression thrown in.

          And after reading the site: why are you bringing up the Philippines or the Uighurs?? Did you even click the link the page is almost entirely about Tibetans.

          • Riddler

            You won’t get any facts. You will never, I repeat never, get a chinese person to answer any of these questions. They will simply start pointing at something totally unrelated or go on about America’s wars and British history or something or other.

            I ask about the sky, the answer is about the rope.- proverb.

          • whuddyasack

            Oh, you want facts. Here they are:

            http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/30/us-china-tiananmen-idUSBRE99S1DZ20131030

            http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/04/27/again-chinese-uighur-muslim-terrorist-attack-21-dead/

            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/30/china-tiananmen-terror-attack/3312251/

            http://www.ibtimes.com/riots-western-chinas-xinjiang-region-kill-27-ethnic-minority-uighur-group-says-government-repression

            “And after reading the site: why are you bringing up the Philippines or the Uighurs??”

            You need to go deeper than that and read their report. The victim group are the Falungong and Uighurs, and the perpetrators are the Chinese Army.

            http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_Report_2012.pdf

            China is apparently worse than Iraq, Indonesia, India, the Philippines, Mexico, South Africa and Egypt, countries where there is sufficient documentation for genocide and where wars are actually taking place this very moment.

            In the Philippines and South Africa, Abu Sayefs and Marxist Racists are labelled agressors and Government supporters and Whites are labelled victims. In China, Uighur terrorists who also terrorize and massacre Uighur civilians (not just Han, Hui, Mongol, Kazakh) are lumped together with them as victims.

            So you tell me if Genocide Watch is neutral and the Chinese Government has been too harsh genociding these terrorists? Personally, I think they’ve been quite lenient; if this had happened in the US or Russia, they’d be mercilessly wiped off the face of the Earth.

            P.S. I wouldn’t even compare Tibetans to Uighur “terrorists” who wouldn’t hesitate to kill their own, spread genocidal remarks around and kill innocent tourist and civilians who had nothing to do with the government. Tibetans are genuinely peaceful and would never hide behind oppression to justify murder.

          • Riddler

            You’ve been gone for two days and THIS is what you came up with? THIS?

            Go stand in the corner for an hour or, write a 1,000 word essay on self-stupidity, or….

    • Riddler
  • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

    So the guy wasn’t crazy. Well he was, but he was still lucid enough to know who his target was and planned, in the loosest form of the word ‘plan’, to kill him. Wonder what the doctor did to be the target.

    • Ruaraidh

      He stabbed three people… which one was his lucidly planned target?

      • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

        The name of the one he wrote on his wall.

      • donscarletti

        Is Wang Yunjie spelled with one X or two?

    • Riddler

      All three by the looks of things.

    • Riddler

      What did he/they do? Lets hazard a few guesses given what is relatively normal practice. Maybe removed an organ from a relative/friend of the alleged perpetrator and sold it, used a friend/relative of the alleged perpetrator as a guinea pig for testing a new medicine which may have resulted in a variety of diseases. Might have conducted a forced abortion.

      The list is actually quite long so please add further motives for this alleged crime.

    • Guest23

      Pretty much murder but all in name in the media, still waiting for the reason why he went on a rampage.

  • wafflestomp

    HE’S BEEN STABBED! IS ANYONE HERE A DOCTOR?

    Jokes aside, I’m glad they at least stood up against illegal cremation. They probably want this to go away as soon as possible/swept out of the media and under China’s MASSIVE rug.

  • Alex

    The doctors were guarding the body because the cops wanted to take it away, and probably would just be cremated and the case wouldn´t be investigated.

    • Riddler

      Would you ask them to drag whuddyasack along also please?

    • mr.wiener

      Why the resistance to investigate though? Seems like a fairly clear case.

      • Probotector

        Remember what happened to Neil Hayward?

        • Riddler

          Force fed cyanide because they wanted him out of the business he set up. Then created a whole lot of crap about alcohol poisoning and thought that the British government would say ‘oh well’ and forget the whole thing.

        • Chris Hansen

          Yeah..well Rest in Pieces for Neil too….I doubt he was as clean as a piece of blank sheet of toilet paper…so…NEXT!!!

          • Probotector

            But he didn’t deserve to to be poisoned to death, his remains incinerated and his death covered up to satisfy some Chinese official’s corruption. Then again, to you, he was just white trash, right?

          • Riddler

            Sigh…they just cannot resist can they? Copying are phrases also…

            He liked that Rest in Pieces didn’t he? Except that it doesn’t make sense for the late Mr. Hayward as he wasn’t butchered with a knife.

          • Probotector

            Well, it’s not Americanish is it?

          • Riddler

            Yes I give them that. They are, at least, trying to ‘keep it’ real by attempting to speak our language correctly. Even though it is taking them a lifetime to do it.

            They hate the UK yet they copy everything we do and would sell their mothers and wives to live there. But they hate the UK.

          • Chris Hansen

            If you get in bed with the dogs (Bo’s family) you get up with fleas….just like anyone who gets involved with criminal activities…too bad Neil…greed always catches up…no sympathies for a greedy and dirty businessman just like their Chinese counterpart

          • Probotector

            Still, does that warrant murder and covering it up?

          • Riddler

            You know about toilet paper? My, my, you are coming along aren’t you.

          • Chris Hansen

            Come on Riddler…pull another oral trick out of your tight green suit….aren’t you the Cs’s super talented dictionary?

          • Riddler

            “…aren’t you the Cs’s super talented dictionary?”

            I am? Why thank you. What I suggest to you, in light of your post, is for you to refer to a dictionary and start memorising some big words. Like ‘if’ or ‘but’.

          • Chris Hansen

            Oh man…that’s pathetic…so you’ve pulled the old “correct your grammar” trick…even for you that’s low….what happened to you today?

          • Riddler

            Tissue?

  • Freddi BuBu

    Pretentious solidarity by a society that deifies persons of perceived high status….

  • This country is fucked up. No, THIS WORLD IS FUCKED UP.

    • Probotector

      No, it’s just this country.

      • jin

        you dont travel alot do you? first time in a foreign country called china?

        • Probotector

          …and you do, with rose tinted liberal glasses on no doubt? Tell me, is it racist of me to say that not everyone is equal?

          • jin

            So only China is fucked up? Ah ok…

        • Riddler

          Unless there are two countries called china then yes.

  • Ami

    Does china have a socialized healthcare system and to what extent? Is it 100% or mostly/somewhat subsidized?

    • 5000 years of history

      Chinese socialism means socialism with Chinese characteristics. In other words you pay everything. Wait in line with thousands. See a doctor with a hundred heads listening to your problems.

      • Riddler

        Its called ‘Chinocracy’.

        • Probotector

          Not to be confused with ‘Chinocialsm’, ‘Chinianity’, ‘Chazism’ or ‘Chislam’.

          • Riddler

            LMAO! So, Chapple would be a kind of religious brand name?

      • bang2tang

        I think they are real example of capitalism instead of socialism.

    • Probotector

      No, it’s all individual pay. China isn’t really socialist, like “5000 years of history” was saying, it’s socialism with Chinese characteristics.This label is basically China’s way of justifying why they are still ruled by a Communist government, when in fact they are an authoritarian, nationalist, capitalist (in other words, Fascist) society. The ‘socialism’ as we know it in the West, free healthcare, social security, housing benefits, unemployment welfare, etc. does not exist.

      • bang2tang

        Maybe it will be hard to provide unemployment welfare in a country consist of 1,3 billion people.

        • Probotector

          Whose fault is that?

    • Riddler
    • Kai

      Contrary to the unhelpful answers given to you by others, I recommend you Google “china healthcare system”. There are a number of reasonable sources to start with to get an idea, including a number of academic papers. Warning, it might make for boring reading. This Wikipedia page may also prove helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_reform_in_China

      Oversimplified, there are a lot of medical services that are subsidized. A lot of services or medication are priced at rates Americans (perhaps most notoriously) would find unbelievable. However, the quality and coverage of care is extremely spotty, especially between urban and rural areas. China does have a “socialized” healthcare system, one that is better than what it has had in the past, but it’s got a lot of problems and is easily incomparable to better socialized healthcare in certain notable countries.

  • Guest23

    The stories of either doctors or even patients swindling each other is depressing, patient-doctor trust is pretty low in supply, but this was too extreme, guess they would just lie to save face or even cover it up and make you file a formal complaint that won’t do anything.

    And do they really have the authority to cremate the bodies without familial consent? cause that would like destroying the evidence and making a quick buck.

    Still waiting on how the guy managed to not get stopped or even inspected if he managed to smuggled a hammer and knife without suspicion inside the hospital.

    • Kai

      It’s not remotely hard to smuggle a hammer or knife into a hospital in China. It’s not like they have metal detectors and security guards patting people down. People come and go pretty easily and neither a hammer nor a small knife is hard to conceal.

      Legally, I don’t think they’re allowed to cremate the body without family consent but the law hasn’t always been reliable in stopping motivated authorities from doing what they want.

      • Guest23

        Security guards that don’t check the content of anyone’s bag because there’s far too many people and they come and go as they please, lot’s of stories like that around the world, negligence breeds contempt.

        Just read a few articles on those illegal cremation, it’s a bit shocking that they can hide their excess torture to death by cremating the detainee and then delivering the ashes in a plastic bag in a box, not even an urn, I don’t believe this thing could go this far without the people going to the media and the government reacting to it.

  • Cauffiel

    The doctor is NOT in!!

  • Dumbledore

    I get why people go postal with hospitals sometimes. We’ve had to sign waivers 3 or 4 times before they’d even begin treatment, making sure we can’t sue or receive compensation if they botch things up. I don’t condone killing people of course, but the whole system needs a massive overhaul because they do take massive bribes, expect money presents, treat you like dirt and are generally speaking not very nice, friendly or service orientated. I distinctly get the feeling that doctors in China chose the profession based on potential income, and not because they wanted truly help people in need. Bastards, most of them.

    • Nick in Beijing

      Couldn’t agree more.

      Had a student a few years ago who was a surgeon. He was incredulous when people in class were criticizing doctors for taking red envelopes. His argument was doctors have the right to take them, and deserve them because they have a lot of patients.

      He couldn’t grapple with the idea of providing medical care based on his salary, and the fact that he is a doctor charged with caring for the sick.

      Have a student now who is a dental surgeon. He complains that he can only drive a Lexus. When telling a story about how someone broke into his Lexus to steal a 10,000 rmb handbag he bought for his wife, he was offended when the other students gasped at how a dental surgeon could afford these things and was complaining about ONLY being able to afford such things.

      • linette lee

        I wonder why China don’t have law against any workers taking bribery just for doing their jobs. In HK if you get caught accepting bribery for performing your job you can be fired. That is one way to fire you. But of course people in reality still offer other types of bribery like they bring lunch to you. And they do it as “appreciation” gift. But you can’t take money. Like you give christmas gift or tip to postman or doorman. I guess “appreciation” gift is okay but not red envelope. That is just wrong.

        • Nick in Beijing

          China doesn’t enforce anti corruption laws in any meaningful way, Linette, because if they did so then the very people who wrote the laws would suffer under them. Corruption is endemic. It is an indelible part of China and it likely will be just as it always has been.

          Confucianism is to blame, what with it’s filial piety bullshit that makes the government equivalent to a father figure which must not be questioned, and that criticizing others openly and harshly is a big no no.

          • Kai

            Corruption IS endemic in China and (@cf27739e313d1b16d749ebdf96ee7d2a:disqus ) there are laws just like in HK but they indeed aren’t enforced satisfactorially.

            But blaming Confucianism is silly.Endemic corruption exists in many countries that doesn’t have Confucianism. Blaming Confucianism is trying to pin a common human failing on something comfortingly cultural. That’s dishonest. In many of these hospital attacks, open, public, and harsh criticizing of each other by the parties involved preceded them.

          • Opinion

            It’s funny how some people with the biggest bugs up their asses about China end up using the same dumb exceptionalist arguments that some Chinese people use to defend these things. Corruption is just China’s unique culture!

      • Joseph rodriguez

        Oh my, those doctors have no sense of nobility for their profession!

      • Kai

        Such attitudes of entitlement are unfortunate and obnoxious. I’d be interested in hearing their rationale (beyond having to put up with patients).

    • Kai

      I think we’re used to doctors making a lot of money in the West and a lot of people pursuing the profession for financial rewards, but interestingly, I believe doctors in China officially don’t make that much in comparison to their Western counterparts or relative to the average income in society.

      This is one reason for why bribes and kickbacks from pharma companies become so attractive. It’s very easy for people to feel entitled, and doctors in general–not just in China, and not just when dealing with Chinese patients–often feel they put up with a lot of shit in the course of their work for which they deserve “more” compensation. A common suggestion for healthcare reform in China is to increase doctor’s salaries in an effort to lessen the temptation to accept bribes.

      I’ve actually never gotten the impression that people in China chose to become doctors because it was as you suggest a way to get rich. In my experience and interactions, that reputation and social “common sense” actually isn’t as embedded in China as in the West. The profession is seen as respected and fairly stable, and while bribery for preferential treatment has always existed, it actually wasn’t that long ago that doctors were declared public enemies. It’s long ago enough that being a doctor is back to being respected and impressive, but China overall hasn’t had a consistent history where the profession of doctors was equated with high incomes. A lot of of the income “potential” has only recently been introduced with modern pharma capitalism.

  • the ace of books

    Fun fact: stabbing people is never the answer.

    I’ve got both likes and dislikes about this story and the situ overall. Let’s start negative and go positive (and then finally some unclassifiable points):

    neg:
    you don’t stab people who’re unrelated to your beef. That’s 1) not right, 2) bad PR, and 3) not right. It makes you look like a raving lunatic, and also what the fuck did they ever do to you?
    – you don’t stab people who are related to your beef. This is common sense. It’s just a bad idea to stab people overall.
    – unfortunately stabman may have had a legit beef with the hospital – I don’t trust that they’re beyond blame in this case. this is a systemic problem, though – one of many – and attacking randoms because you’re angry with an institution is jsut beyond fucked-up.

    pos:
    – I like that the hospital staff resisted the cremation efforts. course the family wants to see their person one last time, but aside from that, there’s also rather ugly system of “death must go according to procedure and don’t kick up a fuss.” I’m glad they kicked up a fuss.
    – I like some of (note: some of) the comments, which make important points about how overloaded the system is and therefore how unfair, and finally how impossible it is to maintain.

    ???
    – the hospital system is so borked up in this country that it’s no great surprise people crack under this kind of strain – that doesn’t justify it, it just makes it make sense. everything about them here – the care, the meds-pushing, the lines, the endemic corruption – everything about them makes them not just unvsavoury, but a sort of face-loss of medicine itself.
    – OTOH, I can understand why hospitals operate the way they do. Lookit the links there atthe bottom of hte article (guy who takes his treatment and does a runner; people waiting hundreds in line) and try to tell me, with a straight face, that the doctors aren’t overworked, underpaid, and undervalued. Shit, the god-complex someone in the comments mentioned sheds light on this too: “I am the Patient, and you my lowly doctor” kind of attitude is not making anyone wanna heal anyone, I tell you what.
    – so I guess the system is screwed up from both sides. Raise your hand if you’re surprised!


    – I don’t like leaving something like this on a negative note, so I’d like to offer a few ideas of solutions. (because despite china, I’m an optimist.)
    – make rules for patients (wait your turn, don’t dick around, pay) and enforce them.
    – make rules for doctors (charge fair amounts, don’t malpractice, take people in turn or via triage) and enforce them.
    – people do shit because the system encourages it, and because they get punished for doing the morally right, but societally hard thing. Stop punishing them for doing right and start punishing them for doing wrong, instead.

    • slob

      He only got one of the doctors involved in his operation, the others were just collateral damage. By the way…isn’t there hospital security? I don’t remember the last time I saw a security guard in a hospital other than those worthless plebs you see at the door who don’t even do anything. In a place where people push in and hospitals are overcrowded, is it that hard to employ a few guards? Maybe they can give up one of those precious red bags and use it for a personal security guard.
      First time I went to a hospital here I had an abcess. I googled some info and a lot of websites suggested draining it out. I went to the doctor and he put me on drips for an entire week. 1400yuan later and the abcess getting worse, I told my translator to ask him about draining it. The next day he drains it, abcess is gone, and 1600 yuan later my minor problem finally gets fixed. That is the sort of bullshit that encourages patients to hate the health system here. The guy in the article had an operation so who knows how many pointless excess costs were added to his bill. The story doesn’t really give his reason other than “unsatisfied with an operation”, but what was the real reason?
      This clash between patients and doctors is going to continue until some serious changes get made, but the problem is one of them holds all the cards – the doctors – because people are always going to get sick here considering the low quality of food and general environment, so they’re inevitably going to crawl back to the hospitals begging for treatment. The patients as you mentioned always push in among other things, and even stand there watching you in the doctor’s room while you have to take your shirt off and think it’s some free show gawking like like fucking owls. You improve the people’s behaviour on a large scale, it improves the way people get treatment, which will make everybody get fair treatment, which in turn will give people more faith in the health system that all are getting treated equally, which would most likely reduce the amount of red bags being thrown at the doctors. Sure it helps the patients, but will the hospitals a.k.a money machines, want that to happen? Unlikely.

      • mr.wiener

        Apparently none of the doctors injured or killed were the doctor he had come to kill.

        • slob

          “among which included Otorhinolaryngology Department Chief Physician Wang Yunjie who died despite treatment. ”

          “7.31 Wang Yunjie, Lin Haiyong, Die” – this is written under the picture.

          Only Wang Yunjie, who was one of his 2 targets, was actually attacked. The other 2 were neither Lin Haiyong or possibly even related to the cause of his anger.

  • Riddler
  • Emotional

    Real unfortunate cold murder case. The reason death penalty still exist. Real tragedy. Things happen for whatever grievances. Like in US, random shooting here or there, in airport, whatever, a TSA got killed, a teacher killed, student killed, just some lunatic unhappy, depressing. Maybe they hate life, someone taken away something from them, jobs, whatever, they got cancer or whatever…. but still they don’t deserve the right to take another person life away. Sad, just sad….what an emotional society we live in =(

  • 二奶头发

    Does china have family doctors? For example, in canada if you are not feeling well or something is wrong you first go to your family doctor. If you require tests or xrays you go to the hospital or clinic.

    Most of the time all you need to see is your family doctor and not some specialist.

    ONLY if you are really sick or have an emergency or for surgery you goto the hospital.

    • Paul Schoe

      No, no family doctors here, although most villages, which include older neighbourhoods in large cities (= usually swallowed up villages) have a local doctor, often somebody above fifty, who takes care of the local people.

      In my experience, the people from the middle class are absolutely paranoid what their health is concerned and run to the hospital for even the smallest colds, fevers or cuts. The result is that hospitals are overwhelmed with out-patients.

      • Riddler

        Yes, they are called Vets.

        • Paul Schoe

          Ah a good laugh is not bad before going to bed.

          (and I would not be surprised if many of them have indeed experience in both fields)

  • Nick in Beijing

    Any time something like this happens where some systemic problem of China causes a tragedy people always say “China is developing”. There are a few such comments in this thread even.

    I hate this attitude that “China is developing…”

    One benefit that China has, that a lot of other countries didn’t have 100+ years ago, is precedent. How did China reach it’s current level of economic development in only 30ish years? Because the systems already existed, China only needed install them. Why can’t it do the same for societal development?

    History is packed with examples of the kind of pitfalls China (and other
    developing countries) should be avoiding to make their path to
    development smoother.

    It is their own stupid faults for
    not referencing the examples, or trying to do it “with Chinese
    characteristics”, which basically means “with corruption,
    authoritarianism, and fingers in ears screaming gibberish to tune out
    the sound of reason”.

    These things are going to continue happening, with increasing frequency and with increasing severity as long as society goes on without a push for development.

    I also hate these calls for reform. How can you reform something which currently has no form? The vast majority of the systems in China are chaotic messy things that are made up as people go. There may be some policy or law or regulation regarding many of these things, but that is only bathroom reading material for most.

    • Paul Schoe

      Nice Nick: “How can you reform something which currently has no form? “.
      and
      There may be some policy or law or regulation regarding many of these things, but that is only bathroom reading material for most.

      Very nice descriptions of many things that you run into over here.

      • Nick in Beijing

        Thank you. It just irks me no end because, in my eyes, people say these things to deflect personal responsibility even when the bad actions being taken are personal actions.

        • Paul Schoe

          Oh yes, same here. If there is one thing that is (almost) totally missing over here, it is ‘personal responsibility’. People never feel personal responsible for anything. There are always ‘regulations’ or ‘superiors’or ‘Chinese customs’ why faults are not their fault but can be attributed to something, somewhere else.

          (I think that it has to do with job-security. I have a personal hobby: Whenever an accident happens in China, try to guess who gets fired. Because somebody has to be blamed, and the best way for the government to show that they have taken adequate action is to fire somebody. No matter how remotely that person is related to the accident, somebody has to be fired. Hence: nobody wants to be responsible for anything.)

    • Kai

      I think you’re oversimplifying the complex and taking for granted what you already have. China’s current economic situation isn’t simply the result of installing “existing systems”. Yes, there are precedents for the problems and possible solutions seen in China today but there are also so many different factors involved that influence whether “installing” any specific solution will succeed and to what extent.

      For example, China has copied and adopted a lot of things from other countries but they haven’t yielded quite the same results. Some of these things have helped “speed up” economic development in some ways but they have also introduced not just social problems more acutely but also OTHER economic probems. Great Leap Forward, anyone?

      There just isn’t a clean, guaranteed solution much less “system” when people are involved, because people are unpredictable, changing, and “systems” require predictability.

      You should hate the “China is developing…” argument when it is used as a deflection but not when it is an accurate explanation for why things in China aren’t as good as they are elsewhere and why you may possibly be sounding a bit too self-righteous. Yes, “…with Chinese characteristics” is commonly associated with those things, often amusingly so by Chinese netizens themselves, but you also know it’s just their buzz word for trying to adapt certain social, economic, and political ideologies to what they consider their unique situation…because who doesn’t think their situation is unique? You don’t think the efforts towards fostering capitalism and democracy in other countries by countries like the US didn’t have their own adaptations to the local situation? That Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, whatever didn’t adapt “existing systems” to their own environment?

      Not sure why you hate the calls for reform. You’re not familiar with the form these systems have and yes, they aren’t perfect or may even be a chaotic mess to you, but I’m not sure why you’re so angry about people who essentially desire the very improvement you yourself want. It seems rather bitter in a counterproductive way. To an extent, what Chinese people suffer today is indeed ultimately “their own stupid fault”, but I’m not sure if you’d like the same argument being used against you all the time. At some point, it becomes gloating.

      • Joseph Lau

        Oh yeah! I love it when rationalists appear in this discussions.It is like a breath of fresh air!

    • Zhao Xin

      We all know it wouldn’t be just knife and doctor if this took place in the great Lighthouse of Humanity.

  • linette lee

    “Those who can’t afford to purchase a home can go stab construction workers or developers; those who can’t eat safe food can go stab vegetable farmers or vegetable dealers; those who can’t get into college can go stab teacher; those who can’t find a job can go stab company management; those who can’t afford to buy something can go stab the cashier; everyone might as well just stab each other, hate each other. Just who is actually the one behind the scenes add fuel to the fire and laughing?…………………”

    Yeah China, are you and your rich corrupt officials laughing how you run your country?

  • headcrasher

    thanks joseph, appreciate! Especially for discussions, it is very important to understand each others point of view. im glad at least one got my point here :)
    Also it is the same for me, china also has become my second home, and im not planing to go back home. really enjoy it here, wish you a good time!

  • Marko62

    Spending more than 20 minutes in a Chinese hospital for a simple cold can turn anyone into a knife wielding maniac.

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