Taiwan Vice President Boasts Visa-Exemptions, Ridicules China

Taiwan vice-president ridicule china only 20 countries grant chinese citizens visa free access

From Phoenix Online and NetEase:

Wu Den-yih Mocks Mainland: There Is A Big Country That Only 20 Countries Waive Visa Requirements

Global Times News Roundup — Taiwan’s Today’s News reports, Taiwan “Overseas Affairs Council” was held on November 11th in Taipei city. Deputy leader of Taiwan’s government Wu Den-yih made an address indicating that the number of countries that have granted Taiwan visa-free access are up to 134, “but I am embarrassed to say that there is one country that is very very big, but only has 20 countries that grant [its citizens] visa-exempt access”. An “overseas affairs council member” off stage responded: “China” and many people at the scene applauded in agreement. Wu Den-yih said, “Everyone knows [which country], but I’m embarrassed to say it”.

Wu den-yih claims Taiwan has no terrorists and hasn’t created any local national disturbances, nor has it have the problem of gangs and illegal workers affecting local order. In addition, Taiwan and the mainland has changed the past model of conflict and head-butting into one of peaceful development, while Taiwan’s good behavior in overseas affairs has made foreign tourists interested in visiting Taiwan, and even more countries are willing to provide visa-exemptions to Taiwan.

Taiwan vice-president ridicule china only 20 countries grant chinese citizens visa free access

Editor’s Note:

Nations that Chinese citizens can directly enter (where there is mutual visa-exemptions or the provision of visas upon arrival, and visitors can get through customs): Jeju Island (South Korea), Indonesia, Saipan, Maldives, Jordan, Bahrain, Fiji, Palau, Tuvalu, Seychelles, Samoa, Mauritius, Comoros, Georgia, Micronesia, etc.

Nations that Chinese citizens can use electronic visas to enter (where an electronic visa for the destination nation must be obtained in advance, and visitors can get through customs): Singapore, Turkey, Australia, Qatar and the United Arab emirates, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, etc.

Nations that Chinese citizens do not need a visa for but can’t get through customs in China (where the other side gives Chinese citizens visa-free access or arrival visas treatment, but Chinese citizens without a visa can’t get through customs in China): Laos, Nepal, Kenya, Tanzania, Dominic, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Togo, Costa Rica, Mozambique, etc.

Mainland vs Taiwan Visa-free Access

Visa-exemptions for Mainland China vs visa-exemptions for Taiwan

Comments from NetEase:

lxh399 [网易山东省潍坊市网友]:

Look closely: This is the face [behavior, speech] of Taiwan’s so-called political elite! Apart from wanting more of the mainland’s money and land, they want even more! Taiwan indeed has many visa-exemptions, but just how many foreigners go there? Isn’t it still just the mainland playing the family card [kinship] encouraging mainland people to go to Taiwan? Even Taiwan’s media had to publicly admit that it’s the mainland;s opening of tourism to Taiwan that safeguarded [propped up] Taiwan’s economy! In 2011, employers insisted on organizing groups of people to visit Taiwan, and of the tourists at every scenic spot, eight or nine out of ten were all Chinese, not because of skin or appearance, but because those tourists were all speaking Chinese, and the tour guides were all using Chinese to explain/introduce the sights! Not only did so many people going there not didn’t benefit our fellow countrymen in the mainland through tourism, it was simply donating money to Taiwan’s fake red coral and fake brand jewelry. And Taiwan? In the face of Japanese politicians worshiping at the Yasukuni Shrine, do you people have any independent standpoint?

xyy15551 [网易浙江省台州市温岭市网友]:

Ma Ying-jeou: The Philippines, you dare kill my fishermen? Don’t you know that I have more than 100 countries that grant visa-free access to us?
Lung Ying-tai: The Philippines, please use civilization to convince me!

网易山西省晋城市网友 [独独善]:

What can visa-exemptions prove? When the warships of Eight-Nation Alliance come, can visa-exemptions be an unmovable guard that protects the country? When the United States then comes with the false pretenses that you have weapons of mass destruction and wants wage war against you, can visa-exemptions keep the peace? Visa-free access is because other people know your little fart of a island doesn’t have much power and that even if they gave you visa-free access, what can you really do with it? China however is not the same. They do not dare [provide visa-free access to China], because who knows how many commandos, spies, or immigrants who don’t want to leave would enter? Of course, we have just started developing over the past few decades and we recognize that some of our people don’t have high characters [aren’t well-mannered]. These are all things that can be slowly improved and raised! But you as a mere island, I am very curious to ask, just what do you have to be so cocky about? When disaster strikes, do you have the ability to defend your citizens and safety? Also, in essence, Taiwan is territory that was split off [the Mainland], a child that was robbed by a robber, who then turns around and thinks its mother dirty and inferior, just what do you have to be so cocky? When Japanese invaded, it occupied the whole territory of Taiwan, but as the descendents of a destroyed nation, what do you have to be so cocky? No matter how poor or inferior the Mainland is, no matter how much external help was borrowed, it at least ensured that its territory is under the charge of Chinese people. To use a saying, no matter how much we fight each other in our own home, it is still ourselves and not letting outsiders squatting on our heads. Taiwan, what do you have to be so cocky about?

网易山东省济南市手机网友(119.188.*.*): (responding to above)

A Taiwan soldier in the army was abused to death, and 200,000 people went to send him off [funeral marches, demonstrations]. The top leaders of the government appeared personally to apologize. If it was the mainland, do you think this could have happened? Marches? Demonstrations? Government leaders making appearances to apologize? Hehe

网易辽宁省大连市手机网友 [局域网主编男友]: (responding to above)

If the Nationalist Party (KMT) is so good, how come they fled to Taiwan? Isn’t your grandpa a stupid cunt? For not supporting them back then?

Comments from Phoenix Online:

凤凰网中国网友:cyzd

No common sense! This is mutual. If China does not exempt other countries from visa requirements, other countries of course will not exempt China from visa requirements.

凤凰网北京市网友:sw08neu:

With China’s population this large, if there were visa exemptions, problems could very easily occur.

凤凰网湖南省网友: 凤凰网友

Everyone all over the world knows: Taiwan is just a province of China.

凤凰网湖南省娄底市网友: dzhcm

But more than 100 countries in the world all regard Taiwan as a province, a part of the People’s Republic of China.

凤凰网陕西省网友: 凤凰网友

There is a place that is very small but calls itself a “country” and although over 100 countries provide visa-free access to it, there are only a dozen or so that has diplomatic relations with it!

凤凰网浙江省宁波市网友:shiapi

A laugh is enough, it really isn’t worth people attacking like this.

凤凰网中国网友:凤凰网友

Without the mainland, Taiwan would be a slave of western countries.

凤凰网陕西省西安市网友:leixinp:

Wu Den-yih mocking the Mainland really isn’t appropriate. All that can be said is that he is too superficial and shortsighted, without the the demeanor of a statesman. Just think, China has over 1.3 billion people, and at its present stage of development, there are indeed a lot of things that need to be continued improvement and development. And the many internal problems in China currently doesn’t mean they can’t be overcome. We are continuously moving forward. The difficulties for a 1.3 billion population country is naturally going to be more than that of a 20 million population island country. Just think, the management of a big family and that of a small family is not the same, and naturally the more people, the more uneven it will be in the characters of its people. So we need to work hard to develop. If we are all developed, is will naturally be easier to get visas. This is a natural thing that happens when development reaches a certain level. If more than 1.3 billion people (one-fifth of the world population) is let out, of course it would have a big impact on the world, whereas Taiwan only has twenty million people, and even if the entire world gave it visas, how big of an impact would it be on the world? Governing a big country requires long-term vision. A frog at the bottom of well will never get past high waves no matter how high he jumps, and a 1.3 billion giant will shake the earth with each step. From Wu’s speech, it can be seen why the Nationalist Party ran away defeated to Taiwan, why it lost political power once, why it has so many internal problems/conflicts, because it can only live the life of a small family [managing a small country], and does not have the ability or vision to create [change/shape] the world.

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  • Guang Xiang

    “A laugh is enough, it really isn’t worth people attacking like this.”

  • Cauffiel

    This article is yet another dim-witted-message-generator-by-Chinese-netizens.

  • lonetrey / Dan

    While I dislike the way the facts are presented,
    I feel like Wu Den-yih made a decent argument.

    But there are better ways and better arguments
    to address the public image of China
    than pointing out the visa exemptions pattern.

  • lonetrey / Dan

    “凤凰网中国网友:凤凰网友

    Without the mainland, Taiwan would be a slave of western countries.”

    That guy sounds like he loves being a slave to mainland China.

    • xiaode

      yes, the poor Taiwanese… just take a look over there… they must live in subhuman conditions… just because they made friends with the devils from the USA for the past 50+ years…

    • donscarletti

      Well, it’s a similar argument to the one about the Korean war. “Sure, they’re poor and oppressed, but at least they’re not exploited by America.”

    • don mario

      lol, which slave is better? the one that has 1,600 missiles pointed at you???? lol.

    • Francis Dashwood

      Are you taiwanese, your profile says asian american, I would wager korean ancestry from the photo?

      • lonetrey / Dan

        LOL No, my ancestry is Taiwanese Chinese! You were right on your first guess!

        Why does everyone think I’m Korean!?

        I speak Mandarin in front of Chinese immigrants running a restaurant at college. Then I find out they thought I was a Korean guy who happened to be able to speak Chinese. LOL

        I think it’s the glasses! -________- Everyone gets that my sister is Chinese, and our faces apparently look similar-ish.

  • xiaode

    If Taiwan belongs to China, then why China has more than 300 rocket launchers which can only reach Taiwan? And Taiwan´s defense system is oriented to the east? (this is a question I always ask Chinese if they tell me Taiwan belongs to them…)
    Hahaha….

    • Kai

      I wonder if it wouldn’t be more interesting to respond to this subject in a way that doesn’t presume they don’t know that Taiwan is de facto independent from the PRC? I mean, I think most of us know what they are saying, that Taiwan is considered historically part of the overall Chinese nation and that there is only one China to which both belong.

      In my experience, it isn’t that Chinese people don’t know Taiwan is separately and independent governed, that there is no freedom of movement between the two places (visas required, etc.), that there is military history and tensions between the two. All they’re saying is they believe the two can’t and shouldn’t diverge further and ideally will one day formally reunify.

      If we know this and we insist on responding in a way that assumes they are ignorant of this, such as by pointing out why there are arms pointed at each other, or asking why visas are needed to travel between the two, aren’t we feigning stupidity by intentionally interpreting their comments in a way different from what we know to be their intent?

      I mean, if you get someone who literally thinks Taiwan is integrated into the PRC and is completely oblivious to the facts, sure, you can respond that way. But I think most Chinese people who say anything about Taiwan being a part of China aren’t that ignorant. I think it might be more interesting to respond more poignantly, steering the discussion towards–for example–what is holding the two sides back from reunifying, rather than point out what is already obvious and beside the point of what the other person is really saying.

      • Cauffiel

        I think plenty of us have run into this with more than a few Chinese, and we know their game plan.

        They know Taiwan is de facto separate, so they make a point of asking foreigners, “what do you think of Taiwan.” They don’t want to have a discussion about it, nor hear your actual opinion, they just want us to tell them that we agree with them.

        If someone is foolish enough to actually open a casual debate about it, they’ll be met with indignation and pouting, and then a promise to take Taiwan by force.

        And thats just one of of numerous hot button territory disputes (China must have more than any other country, right?)

        Suffice to say, you can’t have a reasonable discussion about it with anyone here. They don’t have the intellectual ammo, they don’t know how to talk about it other than to repeatedly insist that Taiwan is historically a part of China. So what’s a guy left to do? Rub it in their childish faces.

        Shockingly, this is true about a number of other third rail issues regarding territory and political history.

        • Kai

          “Game plan” sounds a bit nefarious. I wonder if thinking like that predisposes you to seeing them as an opponent to argue against instead of a peer with whom to have a civil discussion with.

          I’m sure some Chinese people want foreigners to just tell them they agree with them, but I’m not sure that accurately represents the vast majority, in my experience.

          I can’t really remember any conversation about Taiwan I’ve had with mainlanders that resulted in childish indignation and pouting with chest-beating about use of force. I strongly suspect it is because of what is being said and how it is being said. Maybe the fact you framed it as a “debate” has something to do with it. Are you arguing about whether or not Taiwan should be independent/separate from China? Or are you having a sincere discussion about the situation of separation between China and Taiwan?

          I’ve had many reasonable discussions about the topic with mainlanders here. I really think it is all about the approach and I suspect your bad experiences involve approaching it from a confrontational antagonistic stance. Now, I wasn’t party to your experiences so I don’t know for sure, but I know I’ve had way more productive and interesting conversations than you have apparently. It is far from impossible.

          I also think it’s interesting you phrase it as intellectual “ammo”, verbiage usually used for debate and argument instead of discussion. Why would the mainlander necessarily need “ammo” to share their thoughts on the current situation between China and Taiwan? While I think a lot of nationalistic people are indeed sorely lacking in intellectual ability, again, I think it is because the discussions you’re having were steered towards antagonism instead of genuine interest.

          Rubbing anything in anyone’s face is kinda childish too, don’t you think?

          I agree there are a lot of third-rail issues that can degenerate into shouting each other down, but I wonder why some people have more productive discussions about them than others. It has to be in approach.

          • xiaode

            Thanks for your comments!
            If you want to say that there are Chinese people with whom you could have serious discussion about the Taiwan-China affairs, you are right! But according to my experience this number is quite small.

            Most Chinese stared this topic with me, usually only come up with one point: “Taiwan belongs to China… because it always belonged to China!” .. without almost no one knowing how long this “always” goes back in history. Rational arguments or any further discussions are useless and unwanted.

            (…by the way, I never start this topic and and I always only use the above written arguments – together with others: travel = visa, money, own political leaders, elections, and the killer-argument: almost all Taiwanese i know consider them as Taiwanese and not as Chinese… (if Taiwanese friends join the discussions, at this point it´s usually quiet after they said this… or it ends up that the Chinese and the Taiwanese start shouting at each other… but then I can´t follow anymore….) if I see it makes no sense to rationally discuss it or if I don´t want they go on…)

            If Chinese people say that there are Chinese people living in Taiwan, I would never say sth. else. But usually this is not the case.

          • Kai

            I wasn’t there to hear your conversations with these people so I don’t know how they started and unfolded. I just have this nagging suspicion that these conversations are often steered towards antagonism by the parties involved. A rational argument may be useless once the conversation has already become a debate with the opposing sides already having assumptions about what the other side’s position is. They start to argue against what they THINK the other side is saying and stop asking questions to figure out what the other side is saying. Do you know what I mean?

            For example, if some mainland Chinese person comes up to you and says “Taiwan belongs to China”, instead of saying “no, it doesn’t”, maybe ask what they mean by “China”. Are they referring to the PRC or the more ambiguous apolitical notion of a historic Chinese state?

            Or you can deftly steer the conversation in a more interesting, less black and white direction by immediately asking (with sincerity, not sneers) what they think are obstacles on both sides preventing reunification currently?

            Such a question introduces the fact that the two countries are currently separate without harping on it and instead getting at the real meat of the issue. We know mainland Chinese believe Taiwan should reunify with the mainland, so we don’t need them to reiterate their desire. Instead, we want them to consider and discuss the obstacles to it.

            A person can say they want this or that, but what really matters is what prevents them from having it or, more importantly, what would allow them to get it. If you don’t want things to devolve into a feet-stamping, you have to prompt introspection. If they say Taiwanese people don’t want to reunify, then ask them why they think Taiwanese people are reluctant. If you’re unlucky, you might get someone who has a conspiracy theory that Western powers are misleading the Taiwanese people. That’s a good time to walk away from the conversation but if you think the person can be saved, instead of laughing in their face, ask them if there may be any other reason?”

            Let them prove to you that they are irrational and unwilling to have a discussion. I think a lot of people automatically assume mainland Chinese people have a brain-dead position on this issue and don’t even give them a proper chance to actually share, elaborate, and explain what they think.

            You can even ask them: Are we talking about whether or not Taiwan is separately governed or are we talking about whether or not Taiwan should eventually reunify with China? If they go with the first one, then you can find a tactful way of demonstrating how Taiwan is in fact independent from the PRC. If they go with the latter, which I suspect is the real meaning behind most mainland Chinese people saying Taiwan belongs to or is a part of China, you can hopefully have an interesting conversation where you get to learn about what they know about why the two sides are separate to this day.

          • don mario

            mate, there is no point continuing to discuss with them after the word ‘taiwan’ has been brought up.

            it has happened several times with me, the word ‘taiwan’ was mentioned and responded to with ‘taiwan is part of china’! they don’t want to have an intellectual open minded discussion, they want to lecture you with some nationalistic bs and nothing more. reasonable arguments will not be met with logic and an awkward situation will result.

            sure i have known a few smart types who didn’t do this but they were few and far between.

          • Kai

            Like I’ve said, I’ve had a lot of interesting discussions about Taiwan with mainlanders of various backgrounds. You’ve surely had different experiences than me. My point is that I suspect approach to the discussion influences how it unfolds.

            Try to Socratic method. Ask questions instead of trying to make what you think are “reasonable arguments”. Keep the questions simple and open-ended without making them leading questions (such as “if Taiwan is part of China, then why do you need a visa to go there?”) which are often rightfully interpreted as denigrating insults.

            Assuming all they have to say and all they can think of is “nationalistic bs and nothing more” is basically you presuming they’re unredeemably stupid. That’s insulting too. If you can’t even give them the benefit of the doubt, why should they? If you’re “intellectually open-minded”, demonstrate that you are by rising above it and not falling into the us vs. them dynamic.

            Again, don’t get me wrong. I’m probably more familiar than you are with people regurgitating nationalistic tripe as arguments, but I think you’d have more interesting discussions if you considered a different approach than clashing with arguments for or against something. I don’t think this is an unreasonable suggestion.

          • don mario

            well i thought i could, and i thought i could have even more interesting talk with taiwanese about the subject. from my experience it is not worth it in the slightest with either..

            of course there are some smart ones but they are few and far between.

          • Cauffiel

            God, Kai, you are insufferable.

            I’m guessing you have easier-going conversations with Chinese because you pussy-foot as much in real life as you do on Chinasmack.

            Game plan is nefarious? Let me tell, dude, I’ve lived in 3 different provinces… Hubei, Guangdong, and Shenyang… and I can predict what Chinese will say on most common issues.

            Why? Because they don’t have intellectual ammunition. Yes, ammunition. I don’t want anyone’s “feelings.” What a waste of time! I want ideas and a few facts to support those ideas. They don’t have to be George Will, and if some facts come into dispute in the discussion, thats fine too.

            But you’re right… you talk about Taiwan with the average Chinese, all you get is feelings, because they don’t know anything about it worthy of discussion. They all say the same thing that they repeated over and over and over in school and at home growing up.

            How many “discussions” do you think they ever have about Taiwan in public schools?

            Chinese aren’t naturally dumb, they do not lack “intellectual ability,” they lack intellectual nutrition!

            I hate talking about this or any other issue with Chinese. I’ve had some people ask me in private about things like Taiwan and other controversial issues, and we have a pleasant discussion about them, but when you have some dipshit ask you in front of a whole table of people at a restaurant or in class with a room full of 40 of their classmates, ALL THEY WANT IS ABJECT AGREEMENT.

          • Kai

            You say “pussy-foot” and I say I’m just more interested in having a worthwhile conversation than a bunch of indignant feet-stomping because neither side was willing to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

            I have stereotypes for what Chinese people are likely to say on many topics, but I try not to live my life and interact with people according to those stereotypes because thinking you can predict what a person will say and what they think based on their nationality is a bit arrogant.

            My point about you using words like “ammo” is that you see the topic itself as inherently antagonistic, that it is immediately one where one side has to prevail over the other by proving or disproving something. If it is the mainland Chinese person who is setting the conversation up into a debate, why go along for the ride? Is it because you want the fight too? Is it because you want to feel contempt for their thoughts and beliefs? Maybe they started it, but you joined in.

            I’d rather not assume the average Chinese person knows nothing about Taiwan. I think the average Chinese person has some idea that Taiwan is independent, precisely because they usually learn about how they must reclaim Taiwan (at school or at home or wherever). That means there’s an opportunity for you to find out what they think about why the two are separate and, if they want them to be reunited, what has to happen moving forwards.

            Wouldn’t that be more interesting than, for example, you trying to prove how Taiwan is de facto independent from China thinking they don’t realize this and them trying to prove why Taiwan historically is a part of China thinking you want to prevent the two from ever reuniting?

            Right, Chinese are not naturally dumb and in many ways, yes, they lack intellectual nutrition. I apologize if I gave the wrong impression but I was specifically referring to nationalistic people, many of whom I will maintain lack intellectual ability that cannot be explained by level of education.

            Whatever you think about how many discussions are held about Taiwan in China’s public schools, my point is that we can steer discussions towards less productive/interesting and more productive/interesting directions. If I can have fruitful discussions about the subject with mainland Chinese people, I don’t see why other people can’t. It’s not like my positions and beliefs about the issue are very different from many other people. So it has to be in the approach, and in how we conduct ourselves in the conversation.

            I’ve had group conversations or public conversations and I’ve rarely, if ever, gotten the feeling they want abject agreement. If the obvious answer options to the question is unfavorable to you, ask for a clarification on the question or steer the question into something you can answer defensibly. Don’t always assume these people are out to bully you. More often than not, they’re just curious, because you are someone who has a different background. Don’t assume it is confrontational browbeating, which I think you do, given how you describe these people as having “game plans”.

        • don mario

          yes! note to all laowai: AVOID this topic with any chinese, lol. you won’t get anywhere.

          other topics to avoid:
          -dalai llama
          -falun gong
          -tibet
          -cultural revoloution

          • Cauffiel

            How could you forget Uncle Mao, the greatest murderer of all time?

          • don mario

            yea don’t forget that one! unless you want to face a group beat down from crew of old men. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D25u-D9wZVQ

          • angry laowai

            oh no i disagree….its rather funny to have this argument with chinese sometimes! my GF is from taiwan, and she will say out loud…in public…TAIWAN IS NOT CHINA! All i have to tell them is “if taiwan is china, how come my GF has to apply for a visa and passport to come here huh?!” “in the olympics, why are china and taiwan (chinese taipei) different?! because….TAIWAN IS A COUNTRY!!!”

      • markus peg

        The way i see it, it is apart of China but does not belong to China.

        The same way southern island is apart of the British isles but does not belong to Britain or the UK. Another comparison is Korea, Korea is both North and South but North Korea and South Korea aren’t currently one Korea.

        Taiwan may or may not end up reuniting but currently it’s not the same.

        • don mario

          you been there? hundreds of years seperation from the motherland, no point saying it is a part of china any more, it isn’t, its taiwan.

      • don mario

        because chinese people don’t say ‘taiwan is historically part of the chinese nation’

        they say things like this ‘Everyone all over the world knows: Taiwan is just a province of China.’

        and they say it pretty much anytime the word taiwan is mentioned, its obnoxious. that imply’s that taiwan is under the PRC. sure if u put them to the test they wont be able to back it up, i agree with you on that one. theres no point trying to catch them out, but there is no point entertaining their brainwashed shite either. i am not saying taiwanese are off the hook either, they come out with some shite too.

        such as complaining that they can’t use their own flag and have to use ‘chinese taipei’ in the olympics.. when it was their own governments choice to use that name!

        • Kai

          Taiwan WAS just a province of China. That’s where the terms “benshengren” and “waishengren” as used in Taiwan come from. Even on ROC maps, Taiwan is a “province”.

          I won’t question whether or not every mainland person you’ve talked to specifically says “everyone all over the world knows…”. I suspect that’s an extreme example of what you feel is their attitude and I’ve had many conversations where it isn’t remotely so exaggerated. Still, if you run into someone like that, there are still less immediately antagonistic ways to respond, like the responses I’ve mentioned already. If they “stack the deck” with their remark, you don’t have to deal from their deck.

          Don’t get me wrong, there are certainly people who try to pick a fight (argument) over the issue. I just don’t think they are the majority and I don’t think some “non-brainwashed foreigner” vs. “brainwashed mainlander” argument has to arise whenever the topic of Taiwan is brought up. I think if you approach it as an opportunity to exchange views instead of trying to prove how stupid or “brainwashed” the other person is, you’ll have a more interesting conversation.

          Give it a try. No matter what they said first, ignore it and just ask what they think is holding back Taiwan and the mainland from reuniting. Again, try to do it with some real sincerity because the moment you communicate some sort of disbelief or sneer, you’re falling into a dynamic of antagonism. If you think they want to make you their opponent in an argument, don’t let them. Rise above it. If they weren’t trying to, you avoided becoming one. If they were, you avoided becoming one as well. You’d be surprised by how much respect you can get from doing that, or how much more satisfying it can be when they realize you aren’t going to respond with what they think you’d respond. That beats solitarily smugness and indignation in my opinion. It’s like trolls. If you think they’re trolling you, don’t feed them by giving them what they expect.

          • don mario

            “I won’t question whether or not every mainland person you’ve talked to specifically says “everyone all over the world knows…”. I suspect that’s an extreme example of what you feel is their attitude”

            um no i just plucked it from the netizen comments above. and if you to be silly about it, saying taiwan is a province of china could mean that taiwan is a province of the country of china, the republic of china. so that mainlander could be implying that taiwan IS a country and ontop of that the legitimate china. we both know what comments like that mean, they mean a province of the CCP. which it never has been.

            yea man i think they are brainwashed and taiwanese are not much better on this subject either. the whole deal is retarded and i like to steer clear of it with either of them to save awkwardness.

          • Kai

            You do understand I was referring to in-person conversations about Taiwan, not random internet comments, right? Are you telling me every mainland person you’ve had an in-person discussion about Taiwan with says “everyone all over the world knows…”? Or is that more accurately an extreme example of what you feel is their attitude?

            No, we don’t both know what comments like that mean. You suspect they mean it is a province of the PRC. I’d rather assume they mean a province of a Chinese nation regardless of who the government is. Why? Because it is what mainland Chinese people ultimately maintain if you inquire about what they mean.

            Are there some idiots who think it is a province of the PRC? Sure, but it’s laughably easy to confound them on that because they aren’t largely ignorant of the history of China’s civil war. They know the KMT/Nationalist government fled to Taiwan and has kept it ever since. They know the PRC was founded at that point and has never taken Taiwan. They’ve had and watched major blockbuster movies that accurately depicted this.

            Come on, dude, pre-emptively assuming mainland Chinese people uniformly think Taiwan is a province actually administered by the PRC is incredibly insulting of their knowledge and intelligence. The vast majority of people who say “Taiwan is a province of China!” are actually expressing their belief that Taiwan should be a province of a larger China, not a separate country. They have understandable reasons for this desire that we shouldn’t be ignorant of given our educational backgrounds and intelligence. We should frankly know their arguments better than themselves.

            And when we do know their arguments better than themselves, that’s when we can steer the conversation towards a more interesting direction than head-butting over imaginary positions projected onto the other.

            I don’t care if people would rather just avoid the conversation entirely. For those who are having them, I just think there are ways to have a more interesting conversation if we ask the right questions instead of falling into regurgitating the “facts” we know or “desires” we have.

    • hailexiao

      The whole debate reminds me of theological wordplay around the concept of godhood in Trinitarian Christianity. So there is one God. But he comes in three Persons…or three aspects…or no, was that three avatars? So maybe there is one China, but it comes in two forms, or two flavors, or two governments.

  • SonofSpermcube

    These visa exemptions are usually reciprocal. If China starts granting them, they’ll start getting them.

    • Jahar

      no they won’t. There’s a reason developed countries make it difficult for people from developing countries to visit. Developing countries don’t have the same problems.

  • mr.wiener

    I always get a little annoyed when I read the commentd section after an articlr about Taiwan. Chinese people always get terribly “Chinese” about it. There was no report on this in Taiwanese media.

  • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

    Wu Den-yih: Professional troll

  • John Wang

    Imagine getting so worked up by an offhand joke (that’s possibly in bad taste from someone of his station in life).

  • markus peg

    Lol at the visa comment made by Taiwan.
    LMFAO at the Online comments trying to defend it.
    dual nationality is another issue China needs to address, it wont ever happen…
    Many Chinese illegally hold two passports because of that.

    • linette lee

      dual citizenship? If they make it so easy for China Chinese to go to other countries. Half of the China population will leave China. Who wants to live under China gov’t? Only the rich and powerful want to live in China.

      • markus peg

        Well Linette here is a situations i was thinking of when i commented above about dual citizenship.

        When a Chinese person gets married with someone not from China it can become quite hard to visit family in China if you have given up citizenship, at the same time it can be hard to keep going over seas if you don’t give it up, which is why many illegally obtain both. The other thing is when the couple have children..

        It’s a headache when two people from different nationalities fall in love even without visas and citizenship issues…
        The only solution to such problems without doing anything against the law is getting green cards, but its not easy to get a Chinese green card unless you are rich then you can just “donate” and they will offer you a green card….

        I wonder if a child from mixed nationalities born in China can be given a foreign passport with a Chinese green card?.. I think the answer is yes to the passport and no to the green card, but i don’t know for sure…

        • Elijah

          I know the feeling, my Angel will be here in a few month. Haven’t seen her since I got back to Canada in June 2012.

          She and I plan on visiting china if we can only until we can get Mama and Baba to Canada as well.

          After that, returns will be occasional to see very good friends or extended family if possible.

      • hailexiao

        Dual citizenship makes it easy to go to other countries…if you are already a citizen of those countries. If you don’t care about living in China, isn’t it just as easy to simply drop Chinese citizenship?

        I don’t think only the rich and powerful want to live in China. On the contrary, since most of them know their power is precarious and their wealth is at least partly illegitimately gained, they are the ones most wanting to leave China. More like hardcore nationalists and old school party cadres want to stay in China.

    • don mario

      word, its backwards..

  • Stefan Xu

    He got his fact wrong, PRC passport holders can go to up to 44 countries. Bad mistake of him. He shouldn’t argue with false facts.

    Source:

    https://www.henleyglobal.com/fileadmin/pdfs/visarestrictions/Global%20Ranking%20-%20Visa%20Restriction%20Index%202013-08.pdf

    • Germandude

      Breathtaking list of nations.

      Also:
      “Chinese immigration authorities do not generally allow mainland Chinese
      citizens to board outbound flights without a valid visa for the destination
      country even if the destination country grants visa on arrival to Chinese
      passport holders unless the exit is approved by the Ministry of Public
      Security.”

      and

      “Chinese
      government authorities saying “the visa-free or visa-on-arrival policy, as
      declared by some countries unilaterally, cannot be honored from our side”
      unless there were further bilateral agreements, and to date such agreements had
      only been signed with Mauritius, Seychelles, and San Marino although a
      “no-visa agreement” was expected to be signed with Thailand in 2014″

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Chinese_citizens

      And
      then compare that with Taiwan

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Taiwanese_citizens

  • takasar1

    “100 countries”???? does taiwan even have diplomatic relations with 100 countries?

    • mr.wiener

      We lost that powerhouse of Africa, Gambia, earlier this week.

      • takasar1

        not too surprising. they need chinese money

      • Guest23

        Don’t you mean “The” Gambia? still feeling weird when people say you should add “The”, pity their president is being a bit spoiled when they left the commonwealth over something that isn’t relevant today.

        • mr.wiener

          No, I mean “Gambia”, after this week’s sorry betrayal they have lost all their “The” rights from me. If they keep this up I’m going to use a lower case “g” on them too, that’ll learn ’em.

          • Guest23

            I’m getting a Gaddafi silliness and insanity feeling on the actions and looks of this guy http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24376127

          • mr.wiener

            He’s wacky as. When Ma Yin Jiu went there a couple of months ago he challenged him to a push up contest, He won too, I think it’s his big party trick.

          • Cauffiel

            and all caps the rest of the letters.

  • A gentleman would chuckle at this, put down his tea cup and work to improve his government.

  • David

    I am sorry you have had such a bad impression of Chinese people on the mainland. I have lived here for 8 months and while they are certainly different than the Koreans and Japanese I was used to, I would not call them barbaric, more like “developing”, Meaning some act like adults and some act like children. I think in more developed countries you get a higher proportion of adults acting in a way that most people understand (even if they do not agree with it). Of course there are things I do like and some I am even shocked at (like they way they walk in the street in general makes me think many have a death wish lol) but it is a different country than mine so I expected this. I can not believe your post actually has me defending Chinese behavior. I will just say there is no reason for name calling of an entire population and leave it at that.

    • Eurotrash

      They, and I generalize, are barbaric. There’s no other way to put it.

    • TheObvious

      You have been there for 8 months? I see now. By the time you reach 2 years your outlook will have changed. Even at 8 months you are still experiencing new things and it still has that “adventuresome” feeling… But sooner or later in a relatively short time the real china will set in, and you will realize how horrible mainland china and it’s people really are. (I know this from experience)

      • David

        Yes, I understand my experience is not that of everybody but I have lived abroad for years before and I know my perception will change as I learn Chinese better and experience more, but I am not looking for a place to live (or retire or find a wife or mistress or party at the bars). I am here to study and understand China not wish it were different or better for me. I have been to worse places than China (the Middle East during a war is not enjoyable) but whatever happens I will deal with it. If I did not want to be here I would simply leave, nothing is keeping me here except my desire to stay. Also, while I certainly have expat friends who feel the same as you I also have some who love it here (for their own selfish reasons I guess)..

        • don mario

          china is rotten to the core man.

          i love the place, but its a reality we all have to face..

      • Kai

        I think the honeymoon phase is usually shorter than 8 months but there’s definitely a honeymoon phase that becomes a phase of disillusionment and angst. A lot of people leave during this time.

        Every person will be different. There are those who leave because nothing was holding them here. There are those who leave even if they had a reason to stay but just ultimately couldn’t adapt. There are those who stay but can’t adapt beyond a state of angst and resentment. Then there are those who stay and have made their peace with how China isn’t the same as it is back home, and thus manage to live life without being in perpetual angst.

  • Guest23

    They seriously hit a nerve every time they say anything about the differences between China and Taiwan, and the feelings are quite mutual too.

  • Alex Dương

    > The West isn’t going to invade you if you’re a friend

    That’s what Gaddafi thought.

    • hess

      And how was Gaddafi a friend of the west?

      • Alex Dương

        Let’s see, he condemned the 9/11 attacks, supported the War on Terror, and decommissioned Libya’s WMD programs. Those are facts. I’d also consider them to be friendly signs.

        • ptptp

          But the key point was did Libya have a visa exemption? No exemption, no friendship!

        • My_honourable_lord

          And he hugged Tony Blair.

  • David S.

    Do these people actually control armies and missiles and shit? Aren’t they supposed to not be childish and petty and just not idiotic in a very general kind of way?

  • Kai

    Correct, China can be characterized as being jealous of Taiwan and Japan.

    Incorrect, China has helped Taiwan’s economy immeasurably. Like Hong Kong, much of Taiwan’s economy is tied to the mainland. To deny that is completely dishonest and ultimately pointless.

    Correct, Taiwan does not want China to invade. While some nationalistic people in China entertain the idea, the government doesn’t really. They know it would be a lose-lose situation, the worst option available, and only worth considering for VERY narrow range of situations. Taiwan knows this too. That’s why the status-quo is so actively maintained by both sides.

    • nqk123

      agree, currently china investments are very global. many nations are very depended on China. which is why many nations has to back down from china aggressiveness/demands.

    • don mario

      incorrect. the status quo is actively pursued by taiwan…because they have 1,600 missiles ready to fire off if they say other wise. and it seems ma is actively pursuing reunification. because….who knows? KMT are considered mainlanders in taiwan anyway.

      aaand….the status quo is not pursued by the mainland side, reunification is the only choice acceptable for the party..

      • Kai

        I disagree and I suspect you have a different definition for “status quo” in this context than I do.

        The mainland is certainly pro-reunification, no doubt about that. That they aren’t pushing for it, demanding it, accepting nothing less than immediate reunificatiion is why I say they are also “actively maintaining” the status quo. I said nothing “incorrect”.

        The mainland government is content to let the matter be decided in the future. It is willing to accept the continued de facto independence of Taiwan. It is content to engage in bilateral talks on a broad spectrum of issues, all things it wouldn’t do if it couldn’t accept and wasn’t willing to maintain the status quo. Beijing won’t accept formal Taiwanese independence, but it IS accepting and maintaining the status quo.

        • don mario

          no kai, that is just chinese bullshit.

          the status quo means things should be kept the same to keep the taiwanese de facto independence. it does not mean that taiwan is a province on china and that the mainland can actively push towards reunification.

          but that is exactly what china’s definition of the quo is. that does not mean that meaning of status quo changes… it just means the ccp made up their own rules on the spot to suit them, as they do with a lot of things. so yes, you are incorrect unless you are following the CCP law of making things up on the spot?…in which, you would still be incorrect but you could forge out a good career in china.

          • Kai

            Your definition of status quo is very different from the definition predominantly used in this discussion by the PRC, ROC, and most observers. The status quo is predominantly used to describe Taiwan not declaring formal independence and the mainland not demanding immediate reunification. It describes allowing the question to remain unanswered.

            What some nationalistic Chinese netizens say online is irrelevant to whether or not the cross-strait governments are maintaining the status quo or not.

            Your substitution of a different, much more limited definition for “status quo” than is used in this situation does not make what I said incorrect.

          • don mario

            so what you put basically means exactly what i said. that is the american definition. the chinese definition is different. that is a nice opinion to think that they all agree on the same matter, nice…but not true.

            of course it makes it incorrect. uphold the status quo for china means become unified with a country that is already a part of the mainland.

            don’t be naive and say that is the same meaning, it is not, that is quite evident by the tension…. and 1600 missiles.

          • Kai

            I’m not understanding your argument. The PRC government believes Taiwan to be a part of the Chinese nation. It does not in fact believe Taiwan is already under PRC governance. There is a difference between the idea of a Chinese nation and a PRC government.

            The PRC’s acceptance and maintenance of the status quo is to allow the issue of reunification under one government be decided in the future and not let undecided issue get in the way of current bilateral trade and relations.

            I’m not sure where you got the idea that upholding the status quo for China means becoming unified with a country that is already part of itself. I wonder if you’re taking certain words uttered by Chinese nationalists too literally. Again, what matters is not what Chinese nationalists say, but what the PRC and ROC government does, which is maintain the status quo, aka leaving open the question of reunification.

            1600 missles is irrelevant. Maintaining the status quo does not mean they can’t have weapons pointed at each other. I’m not sure why you think it is. Those 1600 missles may be used if Taiwan formally declares independence, which both sides recognize as upsetting the status quo, because again, the status quo is all about NOT formalizing independence and separation and leaving the option of reunification on the table.

    • andao

      “Incorrect, China has helped Taiwan’s economy immeasurably.”

      Any evidence? Wages in Taiwan have stagnated since the free trade agreement with China a few years ago. Also you can look at Hong Kong, where housing prices have skyrocketed, traditional restaurants are replaced by milk powder shops, endless Sasa cosmetic stores, and luxury boutiques catering to mainlanders, and local parents can’t find a kindergarten for their own kids to attend. This myth of Chinese economic integration being a good thing comes with a ton of strings attached.

      I’m not confident the average Hong Konger would say economic integration with the mainland is a good thing. Nor would the average Taiwanese. Property developers in Hong Kong love it, as do people in the financial industry, luxury industry, or HK people with factories in the mainland. That leaves a lot of people still pissed off about expensive housing and increased crowding.

      • Kai

        You answered your leading question in your own second paragraph.

        Chinese economic integration being a good thing isn’t a myth. The myth is that Chinese economic integration would benefit all and benefit all equally.

        You’re not confident the average person in HK or TW would say economic integration is a good thing. That’s fine and it’s important that their feelings be taken into account, but at the same time, they’re neither economists nor reliable rational thinkers who have researched every aspect of economic integration and its effects. In a democratic Taiwan, I would encourage them to use their rights to advocate for change in existing policies that they believe will benefit them or alleviate their problems.

        From a macroeconomic perspective, and this is admittedly oversimplified, I think Taiwan has and can benefit from the larger market and economies of scale that access and integration with the mainland brings. Whether Taiwan can effectively exploit its comparative advantages in working with the mainland is up to them, but they shouldn’t be under the assumption that there won’t be changes and losses as well as benefits. This may be hard to sell to the average person who is eyeing a loss, but no one said government was easy.

        If people could give credit where it is due and be honest and forthright without exaggeration and hyperbole, such conversations would be much more constructive. So we can’t say China hasn’t helped Taiwan’s economy “at all” and we can’t say there aren’t people in Taiwan who dislike the integration, so let’s talk about what can be done about it?

        • andao

          You seem to subscribe to the idea that free markets are categorically good, which is fine, but can you provide some concrete evidence that this is the case vis a vis Taiwan and Hong Kong’s relationship with Chna? I don’t think that Taiwan has gained “nothing” from China, but you also can’t say “of course they’ve gained!” without giving any examples.

          I think it’s relatively easy to identify the winners and losers in both Taiwan and Hong Kong. The winners are:
          -factory owners
          -financial industry people
          -luxury boutiques
          -hotels/tourism
          -people who own property

          The losers are:
          -anyone who wants to buy or rent property, both commercial and residential
          -low skilled workers (except luxury/tourism industry workers)
          -wage earners in general. Wages in Taiwan have stayed the same or fallen since the ECFA agreement in 2009
          -people who rely on public transportation and public services in general, to the extent that Chinese tourist numbers are rising far more quickly than the ability to build new highways/subway lines/hospitals

          The winners are generally those who already “have”, and not so favorable to those who “have not”. And then there are less tangible losses. Due to increased property prices in Hong Kong for example, many restaurants with decades of history have boarded up and been replaced by cosmetics stores catering to mainlanders. Now I don’t advocate giving free loans to small noodle shops, but I don’t see how this is a good thing for either the economy or society as a whole.

          Not to mention the fact that China has state owned companies on a scale that Taiwan and Hong Kong could never match. Even if Taiwan nationalized all of its TV stations and combined them into a single entity, CCTV could purchase all of them at once with pocket change. And this would be a disaster for Taiwan. Maybe some media types would make some cash, but the other 99% would lose out.

          I totally agree that rational discussion is the only way to solve these problems, but I also think that Hong Kong and Taiwan must insulate their economies or risk becoming enormous luxury shopping malls where locals can’t afford to live. With HK I think it’s already too late for that.

          • Kai

            Actually, I CAN say Taiwan has gained without giving examples if I presume examples aren’t necessary because they’re reasonably apparent for anyone looking.

            Given that you’re providing many obvious examples demonstrating a reasonable level of knowledge of the issue, it makes me wonder why you’re asking me for examples. Are you thinking I’m talking out of my ass and don’t know of any?

            But I’ll indulge you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Cooperation_Framework_Agreement

            Both pros and cons, arguments for and against, summarized on that page for those who aren’t arleady familiar (which really shouldn’t be you).

            One specific example is HTC effectively banking on the mainland for its turnaround, which is a reasonable strategy given that much of Taiwan’s economic situation is tied to decades of contract-manufacturing for slim profits and not investing in higher-value brand building. HTC went from a marginal brand to one that actually had some buzz in recent years.

            The most obvious “concrete example”, that you yourself volunteered, for both TW and HK would be tourism from the mainland. Like you said and as shown on cS in the past, it has brought its share of ills and annoyances, but is there any denying the economic benefits this has had for both places? You don’t deny it, so why are you challenging me to provide evidence of a conclusion you openly accept?

            Nowhere in my comments do I fail to recognize that there will be losers. I merely disagreed with Akatosh that Taiwan’s economy hasn’t benefited from its relationship with China “at all”. You asked for evidence and then proceded to provide evidence, answering your own question. So I’m left here trying to understand what your goal is in your comments to me. What point are you trying to communicate to me that you feel I am not understanding? Why do you think I don’t understand it?

            That you think Taiwan and HK should insulate their economies? Okay, but I’m confused, what does that have to do with you demanding evidence of benefits you already recognize? Are you trying to say that the losses, both tangible and intangible, of those you consider to be the “have nots” justify Akatosh’s characterization that China has not helped Taiwan’s economy “at all”? That my disagreement and belief that China HAS helped Taiwan’s economy is therefore invalid?

            I thought my statement, which you quoted and are ostensibly challenging, was quite factual. Everything you’ve said so far reconciles just fine with that statement, so I’m not sure what you want me to say. I feel like you’re arguing with me but I don’t know about what.

  • Kai

    Chinese is a race?

  • markus peg

    I know this is the wrong place to ask but what are these in Chinese, i only know one word for all three and that’s 奶油 (cream)but what is:

    Clotted cream
    Whipped cream
    Pouring cream

    Many thanks and 100 points to who ever knows.

    • moop

      1. 凝脂奶油

      2. 生奶油

      3. 单倍奶油

      http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6abe59c30102dxv8.html

      • markus peg

        Thanks moop!
        I really appropriate the help.

    • Kai

      LoL, what the random…dammit, I’m a mod, not a chef!

      Honestly, I have no idea. I ran into a similar problem when I need heavy whipping cream for making fetticine alfredo.

      Best I can do for you is point you to http://cn.bing.com/dict/. I entered the terms above and got some results that may be helpful.

  • TJDubs

    One thing that hasn’t been pointed out – the lopsided visa policy between the PRC and Japan.

    While PRC nationals have to apply for a visa to Japan, paying money and doing interviews and such, Japanese devils can enter China and stay up to 15 days without a visa.

    That is an invasion waiting to happen.

    • socali

      Japanese dont illegally immigrate to other countries like China does. Not trying to be rude but this is the basis for visa restrictions.

      • TJDubs

        I understand that basis for visa restrictions, but the fact that Japanese devils can fully insert themselves in the PRC without even having to get permission or go through some bureaucratic bullshit is not only a huge disrespect to all the Chinese who suffered at the hands of the Japanese during WWII, but also leaves the door open for another illegal occupation.

        It’s only a matter of time before Xiao Riben decides he needs more farmland and new stock of comfort women and begins sending his undercover ruffians into the motherland uninhibited.

        • hailexiao

          Well in that case the thousands of illegal PRC immigrants in countries around the world are hugely disrespecting their countrymen. If they cleaned up their act and went home after their visas expired this wouldn’t be a problem.

          As for another Japanese takeover…hahahahahahaha. They’re pretty content running their own country these days. There just aren’t that many of them, and they aren’t any more attractive than local Chinese. Maybe they have more money, but there’s plenty of loaded Chinese people around.

  • Why you keep saying “Taiwan and the mainland” – It’s Taiwan and China, 2 countries, one a communist dictatorship, that oppresses its people, another one a free friendly democracy with happy people. Stop confusing readers, and just tell it as it is.

    • P2FX

      It’s “People’s” “Republic” of China and Republic of China. ROC still controls some islands of Fujian province. Don’t belittle ROC. It’s more like North Korea and South Korea.

    • Marcus Black

      There is no such thing as a “free friendly democracy with happy people”. PRC is by no means perfect but at least it’s Chinese people ruling other Chinese people and not Chinese people kissing the ass of America(Not Chinese) ruling other Chinese people kissing the ass of America(Not Chinese). It’s a choice between being another colony of America or not. PRC would be cool if corruption was under control.

      Democracy will not work for China simply because of its population. It would simply fragment and turn into different states/countries. Therefore it’s best if it remains a single country. Looking at the history of “China” should confirm this. Democracy is not the silver bullet that solves all problems. A country doesn’t have to be democratic to be prosperous. People funny enough don’t really give a f*ck about their government so long as they have a good life. I can safely say 90% of people would be happy to live under socialist/communist government so long as their standard of living is good.

      • hailexiao

        Taiwan is hardly an American ass kisser. They buy American weapons, get America protection, and trade freely with America. That’s it. Besides, why does it matter whose ass you’re kissing. Ass is ass. It only matters how they treat you.

        Democracy might work for China, and it might even work better than it does in India, a country with the same population that has managed to stay united despite fragmentation and tribalism that makes China’s troubles seem inconsequential. The average Punjab doesn’t really care about the average Assamese all that much, whereas the average Northeasterner does care quite a bit about the welfare of the average Yunnanese; there is more internal unity among Chinese people than in India. Even if managed/authoritarian democracy is more appropriate, they should at least do it like Singapore, a government that while powerful is less prone to corruption, nepotism, and arbitrary detention. More importantly, Singapore does everything in the open, whereas the Chinese government is in a perpetual ‘cover your ass, censor everything’ mode.

      • don mario

        you are talking shit mate. taiwan has been run by the KMT since the war. and at first they reigned in terror. they are both run by mainlanders, and the people of either place have very little say in it.. chinese definately has less say tho.

  • hailexiao

    Nitpick: for some strange reason Taiwan has an enormous discrepancy between its nominal and PPP GDP figures. Nominally, it’s poorer than South Korea, but by purchasing power they’re actually richer than Japan.

  • jd

    china has one billion people, how many countries are indians exampt from visas, very few

  • don mario

    chinese allways take sly digs, its the way of face culture man.. indirect insults.

    i commend this taiwanese for actually having balls to take a jab and the mainland. most would be readily sucking mainland cock. such as the taiwanese girl on the mainland pop idol who said she was from taiwan, pingdon province, china, or something like that..

  • don mario

    its sad. pre communist china was still a crazy place, but from the photos it looks kinda beautiful and magical..

  • Francis Dashwood

    But then, what about Quebec? They could secede one day?

    • angry laowai

      lol…who gives a fuck about quebec :P

  • Francis Dashwood

    Well maybe Taiwan could lay claim to the isle of wight in the UK, as say Cameron, that right wing FASCIST wants to spill any blood but his own over the malvinas. Do you still keep the queen as head of state, or? I’m not sure why a canadian cares about Taiwan so much, or perhaps we should get back to your favourite topic in Chengdu, english teachers? Good luck with the move back to Canada though, but not Vancouver, that is one junkie filled hole.

  • don mario

    worth a try then, the smart chinese i know have nothing nationalist about them.

  • BigCAD

    There is only one China and its capital is Taipei.

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