US B-52 Bombers Fly Over Air Defense Zone, Chinese Reactions

United States military B-52 bomber.

From NetEase:

Foreign Media Claims US B-52 Bombers Fly Over Chinese Air Defense Identification Zone

Agence France-Presse and America’s The Wall Street Journal quoted an American official’s words, reporting that two US B-52 bombers had taken off from Guam and entered the East China Sea air defense identification zone at about 7pm on the 25th, Washington time. Report claims that the B-52 weren’t armed, nor escorted by fighter jets.

Foreign media: US sends B-52 to challenge China’s air defense identification zone, China doesn’t intercept [on NetEase]

At 6pm on November 26th, Washington time, the Agence France-Presse website published an article titled “US Sends B-52 Bombers to Challenge Chinese Air Defense Identification Zone”, mentioning an official of the American Department of Defense stating that two B-52 bombers belonging to the US Air Force have flown over the East China Sea without notifying Beijing in 25th, challenging China’s newly established “East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone”. The two B-52s flew for less than an hour in the air defense identification zone (ADIZ) unilaterally declared by China, and wasn’t intercepted by Chinese military planes.

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The flight route of the US military B-52 bombers that entered China’s air defense identification zone.

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B-52 bombers are the longest-serving American Air Force long-range subsonic strategic bombers, mainly used for long-range conventional and nuclear bombing missions. Its design was started in October 1948, and the first prototypes flew in 1952. Production B-52B began to be outfitted for the army in June 1955, and subsequently expanded to 8 types: A,B,C,D,E,F,G, and H. Production of B-52s stopped in October 1962, with 744 bombers produced total. Now, the B-52 together with the B-1B and B-2 bombers, forms the US air force’s strategic bombers.

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America specially developed the air-launched AGM-86B cruise missile for bombers. The AGM-86B is a small and light-weight subsonic cruise missile. The size of it is similar to the AGM-6g short-range attack missiles, and so is its weight (namely 1,360kg), able to use a nuclear warhead equivalent to 200,000 tons of TNT or a conventional warhead of 454 kg high explosive, with high firepower, convenient to carry, an a maximum firing range of 2,500 kilometers. B-52H bombers can carry 20 missiles of this type.

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US-B-53-bombers-fly-over-chinese-air-defense-identification-zone-chinese-netizens-reaction-06

US-B-53-bombers-fly-over-chinese-air-defense-identification-zone-chinese-netizens-reaction-07

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Photo of the 36th wing of B-52 bombers at Guam’s American military Anderson Air Force Base.

Comments from NetEase:

网易四川省乐山市网友 [花開o]:

When B-52 fly over, it sounds like a thunderbolt, the roar of justice reverberating in the sky. Uncle Sam, the symbol of freedom.

网易北京市手机网友 ip:123.116.*.*:(responding to above)

If American devils fuck your mother, will you still say it sounds like a thunderbolt?

网易新疆伊犁州网友 ip:124.88.*.* : (responding to above)

American devils have fucked your mother? Then you must be a hybrid/mixed-blood…

网易天津市手机网友(218.67.*.*):

Since 1969, Japan has also established air defense identification zones, just 130 kilometers from the Chinese mainland at its closest point, but Chinese military planes never notified Japan when they have flight activities in the East China Sea Chinese territorial waters and international seas. So, the B-52 flying into the air defense identification zone set by China this time, as along as they didn’t enter Diaoyu island airspace, it’s no big deal. But for the Pentagon to publicly announce this, their intention is to instigate Chinese netizens’ emotions.

请勿侵犯我党合法造谣权 [网易浙江省金华市义乌市网友]: (responding to above)

Has the chicken blood you injected yesterday subsided? [Satirizing someone being too excited. During the Great Cultural Revolution in 1960s, there was the notion that injecting people with chicken blood could make them have ruddy complexion and filled with excitement]

网易上海市手机网友 [623561777]:

I don’t like war, but I don’t want our sons and daughters of the Chinese nation to be humiliated. If we have no choice but to use force, I’m willing to do everything I can to support my country. China has a population of 1.3 billion, and if everyone makes a contribution, which country can contend with us Chinese?

网易广东省广州市网友 [cnvpp]: (responding to above)

When I saw this netizen’s comment, I was suddenly reminded of encountering a little kid burning an ants nest —— that fire burned millions of ants at once, including the ant king, the ant queen, as well as all the big and small government officials, children of government officials, children of the rich and powerful of the ants kingdom, with none of them able to escape.

网易广东省广州市网友 [cnvpp]: (responding to above)

I had a lot of feelings when I saw this scene: If in the evolution of the ants, even if they couldn’t can’t catch up with speed of evolution of humans, if they could’ve just caught up with the speed of evolution of wild boars, they wouldn’t have been so miserably massacred by a little kid today!

95959595啦 [网易澳大利亚网友]: (responding to above)

Even if they evolve to human being, they can’t get their hair upright without hair. That’s why they were so miserably massacred.

有保有压 [网易上海市网友]: (responding to 网易天津市手机网友)

The Obama administration declaring its position like this is not very smart. The unspoken words implies they don’t recognize China’s air defense identification zone. Then when did China recognize Japan’s air defense identification zone? You fly in mine, I fly in yours. America flies [in the zone] once, China flies back in return, and flies back once more, buy one and get one free. Suppose China has the same political system as America, would this conflict still happen? I think it still would. America’s starting point is geo-political considerations. If the Northeast Asia free trade zone is formed, it will be an entity that is even more competitive than the European Union. Highly skilled workers, cheap labor costs, financial groups, it’ll have everything that one expects to find, and America’s position in the world economy will be weakened, so America is not subjectively being kind. No matter if it is Korea-Japan relations, Japan-China relations, or Russia-Japan relations, we can see America planting, instigating, and creating conflicts. And obviously, China, Korea, and Japan all lack long-term vision in political intelligence, instead using conflicts first and foremost to divert attention from internal problems.

网易浙江省杭州市手机网友(183.129.*.*):

What to do next?

穷得只剩钱0 [网易浙江省杭州市网友]: (responding to above)

“Those above” have secret plots,

“those below” have no choice/are helpless.

Back then Little Japan was defeated, and occupied by America,

and modern Japan is not a “vanquished” nation,

but instead has become a democratic country.

So, external forces can also change autocracy.

狼牙棒伺候伍毛他妈的B [网易江苏省苏州市网友]: (responding to 网易天津市手机网友)

This explanation is uncannily similar to prostitutes selling their cunts saying it doesn’t count as being fucked as long as a condom was worn.

网易江苏省常州市网友 ip:121.239.*.*: (responding to 网易天津市手机网友)

If they come in [the ADIZ], just shoot them down. They will be presumptuous if you indulge them. After shooting them down, whatever it cost [compensation], just deduct it from the debt America owes. What’s there to be arrogant about?

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  • Alexander

    That’s going to require a really big great wall to keep those out…..

  • masonman

    Why.

    Does.

    Anybody.

    Care?

    Idiots are playing board games with billions of dollars of hardware, whats new?

    All this talk of fighting, THAT IS WHAT THE POLITICIANS WANT. That is why stuff like this always makes headline news in every country, because it gets people pissed off at “those other guys,” ignoring the actual problems they are facing in their own country.

    Nobody is being “humiliated” you are just being taught to think that.

    Note how every time a powerful country starts facing big economic problems they start riling people up with patriotic bullshit, or they go invade another country. Its how they avoid massive backlashes.

    Its hard to understand this because there is a narrative in every country that is pushed on every single citizen day after day after day, and saying “NO!” to that popular narrative is hard, and rare to see.

    • The 23 million people of Taiwan care. I’m afraid we’re gonna be caught in the middle when shit hits the fan.

      • David

        I would not worry anytime soon. No FIT is going to hit the SHAN for a while, if ever. China has come back and softened its earlier hardline talk. Basically saying that since this is not their national air space, they will simply monitor all aircraft going through the zone.

        • don mario

          lol, why can’t they just make up some face saving bullshit like that for the whole island situation and leave it to japan. better yet, make one to allow taiwan independence too. the result will be the same as chinese people seem to go along with facing saving BS no matter how blatant it is.

      • utera

        Theres no reason to be afraid. It simply sets a precedent that china cannot just unilaterally throw its weight around and not expect a reaction. America being silent would be far far worse because china would then just continuously push further until they hit a sudden reaction and then that results in a sudden escalation of tension where mistakes can be made. Its better to check people early and often so they expect it.

    • linette lee

      Japan continues to insist the contract agreement signed between USA and Japan(without China agreement) after WWII invasion of China gives Japan the right of ownership of Diaoyu Island.

      “How does this relate to the present dispute over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands? Since 1970 the People’s Republic of China, Taiwan and Japan have all put forward bold sovereignty claims over the islands, which are equidistant from Taiwan and the southwestern tip of the Ryukyus. According to Chinese sources the first mention of the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands is in a 15th-century document now held at the Bodleian Library in Oxford. Early sources tended to mention only the islands’ location on the voyage to the Ryukyus from China, but by the 17th century Chinese sources clearly named the maritime boundary between the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands and the Ryukyus as the Heishuigou (‘Black Water Trench’), an area of high turbulence which we now know marks the edge of the continental shelf. In 1720 Xu Baoguang, the deputy Chinese ambassador sent to confer the royal title upon the Ryukyuan king, collaborated with the local literati to compile the travelogue Zhongshan Chuanxin lu(Record of the Mission to Chusan), which demarcated the westernmost border of the Ryukyuan kingdom at Kume-jima south of the Heishuigou Trench. Deputy ambassador Zhou Huang likewise identified Heishuigou as the boundary in 1756 and later the envoy Li Dingyuan noted the practice of sacrificing a live goat or pig when convoys crossed the trench. In the late 19th century the reformer Wang Tao, who had had experience of travelling in Europe, responded to the Japanese annexation of the Ryukyus by referring to Japanese sources which listed the Ryukyus as a separate country in 1670. He argued that even though the islands were vassals of both China and the Japanese state of Satsuma, the former relationship was more formal; the conquest of an inner tributary (Ryukyus) by an outer tributary (Japan) of China was a cause for outrage.

      In contrast Japan’s argument largely ignored the historical position put forward in Chinese accounts. Claiming that the uninhabited islands were not occupied by any power, or terra nullius, Japan annexed the islands in 1895 shortly after its victory in the Sino-Japanese War. Japan claimed that the islands were ‘discovered’ in 1884 by Fukuoka merchant Koga Tatsushiro, who then applied to lease the land from the Japanese state. At the time, however, the interior ministry noted that it was still unclear as to whether the islands belonged to Japan, especially as there was detailed knowledge of the islands in Chinese and Ryukyuan writings, making Koga’s claims of ‘discovery’ difficult to substantiate. Nonetheless a Cabinet decision in 1895 ruled that the islands should become part of Japan, which provided the basis for their inclusion in Japan’s territories under the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1952 that concluded the Second World War in Asia, but at which neither China nor Taiwan were present.”

      http://www.historytoday.com/joyman-lee/senkakudiaoyu-islands-conflict

      • homerpit

        I do not believe that historical ownership has ever been a strong precedent for determining national borders. I am not sure that being the first nation to mention or go to a place gives any nation the legitimacy of ownership. Borders shift with war and migration of people. Possession seems to be a more determining factor.

        The Great Wall demarcated the border between China and the northern invaders. If we use history to determine borders, then shouldn’t China’s northern border end at the Great Wall? Or does historical ownership only matter when it is in China’s favour.

        The people of Tibet and Xinjiang are out of luck when it comes to their historical claims. They are part of China now. Sorry.

        China does not want any international judicial system to get involved in these sea disputes. What are they afraid of? Well, maybe it is the fact that International Law could be applied.

        Cheers!

    • linette lee

      No, China has not threatened the U.S. with attack. It has not challenged core “U.S. interests.” The Obama administration simply objects to China’s growing economy and military. Such powers are reserved for America, goes the thinking. So, we’ll threaten anyone who challenges that with war……………………

      • wes707

        Actually they did just last month:

        “Because the Midwest states of the U.S. are sparsely populated, in order to increase the lethality, [our] nuclear attacks should mainly target the key cities on the West Coast of the United States, such as Seattle, Los Angeles, San Francisco and San Diego,” the Global Times said.

        http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/31/inside-china-nuclear-submarines-capable-of-widespr/
        http://thediplomat.com/2013/11/state-media-boasts-of-chinas-ability-to-nuke-us-cities/

        • N0WBIE

          Looks like I’m safe if they do that. Even though I am born by my chinese parents. I would be angry at China.

        • My_honourable_lord

          That actually published that? They will eat those words. Remember I said they will eat those words.

      • TheSOP

        Chinese state controlled media was talking about nuking America just a few weeks ago, you are so biased as to be uncredible. Wes linked to it below. Chinese media is always hyping conflict with Japan or the US, put down you victim mask no one is buying it.

        • Anon E Moose

          The U.S. is indeed patient and practicing self-restraint.

          Both Russia and China know this and hence the hyperbole and rhetoric.

          As long as no action is taken, it’s understood that this only a lot of hot air.

      • TheSOP

        Chinese “core interests” are revised and expanded every week. Obama SHOULD take the piss out of China’s socalled core interests, what a joke. Next your feeling will be hurt. Get over it.

      • Gordon Gogodancer

        Linette, I sincerely appreciate that you are expressing a different perspective than the people who are sometimes talking nonsense back at you, however from my own perspective you sound a bit like those fenqing who just repeating the arguments they’ve been taught. Let me say that i’m not trying to make a fool out of you, i’m just saying that these political issues are indeed so complex that trying to determine who is right and who is wrong is just absurd as these situation have nothing to do with right or wrong, it’s just about different sides trying to obtain what they want. Falling in the trap of justifying the position of one side or the other is a pointless use of your energy (I’ve read some of the comments sent to you and i must admit they are not reasonable as well). I used to be a “punch you in the face” type regarding political discussions with Chinese people in the past, and the thing i learned is that we are ALL fuckin brainwashed. I’m not going to pretend i don’t strongly believe the Chinese aren’t way more brainwashed than I am, but i’ll also say that from a European’s perspective, Americans are also feckin nutcases sometimes. The first thing you have to do is fight war with your own ignorance, especially in the situation where you feel you have to take sides.

        • matt.a

          Wow. Fucking. Awesome. Comment. Thank you, I feel like I do that with myself all the time and plan to keep doing so.

      • Anon E Moose

        You don’t know what you’re talking about:

        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/world/asia/15iht-china.html?_r=0

        And here’s the PRC threatening everybody else:

        http://blogs.defensenews.com/intercepts/2013/01/chinese-generals-call-for-war-with-just-about-everyone/

        Of course, the PRC should be a little more prudent and tread carefully here.

        After all, wasn’t it General “Pineapple” Noriega who once said “We’re at war” while waving a machete on Panamanian TV ?

        The next day, the U.S. invaded Panama, w/ “Operation Just Because”.

    • linette lee

      http://antiwar.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/empire-in-asia-e1377199333368.png

      USA is working very hard to contain China. lol
      China wants to rise.

      • linette lee

        USA will keep denying they have this goal, but the amount of money they pour into defense even when USA economy is in debt and deficit, you can clearly see this is their goal toward China. This is their goal toward East Asia. That is why I always hate USA foreign Policy. What they do in middle East and with East Asia. China is an a55hole also the way they deal with SEA and tibet etc. Japan is a bxtch of USA and completely conniving.

        “The China containment policy is a political term referring to a claimed goal of U.S. foreign policy to diminish the economic and political growth of the People’s Republic of China. The term, coined by political analysts in China,[citation needed] harkens back to the U.S. containment policy against communist countries during the Cold War.

        Proponents of this theory claim that the United States needs a weak, divided China to continue its hegemony in Asia. This is accomplished, the theory claims, by the United States establishing military, economic, and diplomatic ties with countries adjacent to China’s borders, frustrating China’s own attempts at alliance-building and economic partnership. The presence of American military in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan;[1] recently strengthened ties with South Korea[2] and Japan;[3] efforts to improve relations with India[4] and Vietnam[2]; and the Pivot to Asia Strategy for increased American involvement in the Pacific have been pointed to as evidence of a containment policy.”

        Chinese political commentators often portray this attitude as current U.S. foreign policy in the mainstream Chinese media.[citation needed] The United States has officially claimed they have no China containment policy and that they “want China to succeed and prosper.”[5]

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy

        • TheSOP

          Show me the East Asians who are scared of America’s military presence, then compare that to the East Asians who fear China’s expanding military presence. China is the threat to the region, US is the peace keeper and widely welcomed. Your map really means nothing, only Chinese expansionists are grinding their teeth, everyone else breathes a sigh of relief that the US is in East Asia. You are so out of touch, you have a very weak grasp of East Asian international politics. And cutting and pasting from a far-left non-mainstream blog shows how much you are grasping.

          • Germandude

            I give you a hint. Don’t ever try teaching a donkey not to shit in the barn. Donkeys simply don’t get it.

            Just in case you ever want to become a donkey breeder ;-)

          • linette lee

            You are a moron.

          • Germandude

            Shut up simpleton.

          • My_honourable_lord

            The donkey has fled the barn to america.

          • Justin

            Ignorant asshole says something ignorant. Another ignorant asshole agrees. No surprises there.

          • Germandude

            Well hello again, Justin. How are your wife and children doing?

            I am not watching Fox News and heard of Bill O’Reilly first time when I watched “The Rumble O’Reilly vs. Stewart” in 2012.
            It is nice of you to be well read and informed about history. It seems to have taught you nothing if you fail to understand similarities of China’s current political and social state, the current governmental international actions and why it holds so many similarities with Nazi Germany and The Empire of Japan.

            Being well read and understanding what you are reading are 2 different things.

          • My_honourable_lord

            I think he’s married to lunette and eattot is the mutant offspring.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Looks some some asshole agreed with your asshole.

          • Ted Roedel

            Well said.

          • Justin

            China has historically not been expansionist. It is trying to consolidate territory in its sea areas, and maybe looking to push borders over into Vietnam or India a few clicks to the west, but doesn’t really have ambitions beyond that. Compare that to the actual real intervention and expansionism of US imperialism. Let’s see, in the last century the US has invaded the Philippines, Cuba a few times, Panama, Nicaragua; supported the ouster of Mohamed Mossadegh in Iran, Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala, Salvador Allende in Chile, and backed countless bloody dictatorships in Argentina, Brazil, El Salvador, etc. Invaded Vietnam, and stoked a civil war there leaving millions dead. Bombed Hiroshima killing another half a million. Used Korea as a pawn in a global game with the USSR, leaving many more millions dead. Turned around and did the same thing on a smaller scale with Afghanistan again in the late 70s early 80s. Funded both sides of the Iran-Iraq war, including providing the helicopters that Saddam fitted with gas to use on the Iranian army. Implemented a regime of sanctions against Iraq that killed another million or so, including about half a million children. Decapitated the government, throwing the country (an artificial state crafted by Imperial Britain to place three warring ethnic/religious groups together in order to divide and conquer them) into total civil war. Then Iraq was forced to deal with the civil war using a crippled medical infrastructure, while private contractors with connections to the Bush Administration looted the country and funneled its oil wealth into their pockets, while giving US taxpayers the bill for their overhead. Let’s see, Oh yeah, and, this is not sequential, but the US also invaded Afghanistan and captured a bunch of prisoners whom it is holding without trial, without charge, and without evidence and torturing on a small island in Cuba.

            OK compare this with Chinese foreign policy. Since the Korean War, China has had almost no significant conflicts with its neighbors with the exception of a couple of border wars with India and Vietnam, which barely had enough juice to make the news. I’m saying this as an American citizen who is far more well read and informed about history than you sir. I take it you probably get most of your “facts” from Bill O’Reilly and Fox and Friends.

          • TheSOP

            Sorry if you think repeating CCP talking points is convincing you are entirely wrong.

          • My_honourable_lord

            You forgot Tibet and East Turkistan.

          • Anon E Moose

            Mostly as reactions to Russian expansionism, post WWII.

            Once the USSR fell, the US reduced it’s military (i.e. peace dividend) 18 US divisions down to 10.

            The PRC military has a 1.4 million man army, the US, only 400,000, distributed on a global scale.

          • My_honourable_lord

            ‘shows how much you are grasping.’

            Gasping:-)

        • Anon E Moose

          Took 80+ years but look at what happened to the USSR.

          You can also see the effect this has on the Islamic Republic of Iran.

          So it’s understandable at the verbocity of the supporters of the PRC at the U.S. containment policy, it has such a proven track record.

          We don’t want to destroy the PRC, a valued trade partner, we only want some leverage at moderating it’s behavior towards it’s immediate neighbors.

          Neighbors who are understandable nervous at the growing aggressive, expansionist behavior of the PRC.

        • utera

          Great conspiracy theory, but you fail to notice the flaw. The countries surrounding china don’t cooperate with the us because they want to contain china, they cooperate with the us because china is that bad. You fail to make the basic observation, china is run by an oppressive unelected government that is dangerous, and controls and brainwashes its people. You don’t think those anti Japanese riots in china were controlled and endorsed by the party right? Sorry but every country and rational person around sees that kind of behavior and knows how dangerous it is. The ugly nationalism you see in Chinese, which is almost racist in nature, its based on race not on actual principles or achievements or pride in having rights or anything, its based on nothing but ugly racist nationalism. Its the kind of thing you saw in Germany before things got ugly, so don’t pretend that other countries are nervous about china for no reason. If the economy falters or the one party rule is under threat, theres no telling what kind of thing the Chinese government will do in order to keep hold on power, and starting wars is just too convenient a thing to do for such a regime. You can point fingers and claim others do this, but under a system like china, everything is worse.

      • TheSOP

        Isn’t nice that there are a diversity of opinions in America, people advocating different positions even far leftist wack jobs that dont have the slightest idea about China or East Asia. But at least those wack jobs aren’t using ethnic allegiances to determine their positions.

      • Anon E Moose

        Yes, we all want things we can’t have.

        China should be mature enough to recognize this.

      • utera

        China thinks too much of itself. China is surrounded by countries on all sides who have their own valid concerns, so don’t let your head get so big.

    • linette lee

      “The US Is ‘Encircling China With Military Bases”

      John Reed at Foreign Policy describes “how the U.S. is encircling China with military bases.”

      The U.S. military is encircling China with a chain of air bases and military ports. The latest link: a small airstrip on the tiny Pacific island of Saipan. The U.S. Air Force is planning to lease 33 acres of land on the island for the next 50 years to build a “divert airfield” on an old World War II airbase there. But the residents don’t want it. And the Chinese are in no mood to be surrounded by Americans.

      …In addition to the site on Saipan, the Air Force plans to send aircraft on regular deployments to bases ranging from Australia to India as part of its bulked up force in the Pacific. These plans include regular deployments to Royal Australian Air Force bases at Darwin and Tindal, Changi East air base in Singapore, Korat air base in Thailand, Trivandrum in India, and possibly bases at Cubi Point and Puerto Princesa in the Philippines and airfields in Indonesia and Malaysia, a top U.S. Air Force general revealed last month.

      As I’ve written in the past, these Pentagon plans are part of the Air-Sea Battle strategy. The idea is to have enough US bases and Air Force capabilities peppered throughout the region so that China would be too surrounded to safely attack in the event of a conflict.

      “Stealthy American bombers and submarines would knock out China’s long-range surveillance radar and precision missile systems located deep inside the country,” reports the Washington Post. ”The initial ‘blinding campaign’ would be followed by a larger air and naval assault.”

      Not surprisingly, Beijing is none-too-pleased with the fact that Washington is planning contingencies to “battle” China, and militarily encircling China in the Pacific. Imagine the calls for war in Washington if China was backing various Latin American countries with money and weapons and building air and naval bases in the Caribbean with the explicit aim of bombing United States to smithereens.

      “Some Asia analysts worry that conventional strikes aimed at China could spark a nuclear war,” according to the Washington Post. Other “critics see a dangerous tendency toward alarmism that is exaggerating the China threat to drive up defense spending.”

      No, China has not threatened the U.S. with attack. It has not challenged core “U.S. interests.” The Obama administration simply objects to China’s growing economy and military. Such powers are reserved for America, goes the thinking. So, we’ll threaten anyone who challenges that with war.

      http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/08/22/the-us-is-encircling-china-with-military-bases/

      • Comebackkid13

        Linette, I usually don’t agree with you. But to say that America’s build up in Asia is anything other than an attempt to contain and control China would be foolish. America is acting the snake charmer with its two barking dogs, Japan and Korea, driving them both wild with fear over China. Then the Koreans and Japanese beg America for help.

        • Gordon Gogodancer

          That’s just called strategy man. Strategy is about using everything at your disposal to achieve your goal, that’s what China is doing, that’s what America is doing. It being morally condemnable is a different topic

        • Dr Sun

          China is on the rise the USA is on the decline, China has massive energy needs and resource needs, so its looking outside its borders to get them. Yes China is being expansionist and the USA its trying to curtail it while it still has the strength to do so (nip it in the bud so to speak).But as with all declining empires it will fail eventually.

          • utera

            This was said when japan rose…and japan is a protectorate of America effectively. So did America contain japan? Did America contain south korea? Did America contain Taiwan? No, America let them rise even at the destruction of many of her industries. China is on a rise because the communist party finally took its foot off the neck of the Chinese people, but just a bit. China was allowed to catch up a little after being crushed by its own government for so long, but are you at japan or even koreas living standard? Nope. The basic problem is this, the only thing that matters to the Chinese communist party is that it stays in power at any cost. As it has no democratic or even communist legitimacy anymore, it fundamentally is unstable, and relies on crushing the creative spirit of its people, it destroys the people that are dangerous, or prevents them from being made. It creates the system that ensures this, and that’s what will keep china down in the end, so don’t worry about America or claim you have a endless rise to the top, it can stop at any time, look at japan. But your government is worse than japans, and so are your schools… the communist party has resided over total moral degeneration within the country, corrupt from head to toe. Did you know the wealth in the leadership of the Chinese communist party is so incredible that it makes us politicians look poor by comparison? The richest 70 NPC delegates are probably richer than the entire U.S. Congress. People run over children in the street and people look on. The communist party did a great job of destroying the Chinese culture during the cultural revolution and communist brainwashing and values to ensure there were no challenges to leadership have ensured that the only values left are cynicism and greed. Add to this the fact that the party needs to continue to crush creativity and spirit in the people to ensure their grip on power and you can see there just is no future there under this system. It will stagnate, the contradictions of advancing a society while keeping it under that kind of control just can’t work.

        • utera

          You make the mistake of not considering the obvious. Maybe japan and korea make their own decisions…maybe they have rational reasons to consider china a threat.

      • My_honourable_lord

        ‘John Reed at Foreign Policy describes “how the U.S. is encircling China with military bases.”

        GOOD!

    • donscarletti

      At time of posting, 47 people here agree with you 1 people disagrees.

      Pity those 47 people already had similar views to you before they read your post.

      Also, pity the translations above come from Netease, which is to the Internet what South China Morning Post is to newspapers.

      Get 47 votes from the small town folks with the 打到小日本,保护钓鱼岛 banners and I’ll be impressed.

    • Meadows-Choi

      Best answer ever.

  • Ivan Teo

    I support US stand of preventing China from being a big bully. God bless America.

    • TheSOP

      I wish we could see the downvoters, wonder who among them would like to offer a counter argument to the US standing up to an aggressive China? Strange that you can see the names of the upvoters but not the downvoters… some familiar names there I am sure.

    • Repatriated

      I’m with ya. I love how the US flew planes with the BIGGEST possible radar footprint…so as to not be missed. Haha.

      China can’t just claim airspace without negotiating with others in such a tight place. Heck, Japan has had control of the Senkaku islands for like 70 years. What’s China’s interest in it now? Is it perhaps because they have a SINGLE useless aircraft carrier?

      • My_honourable_lord

        Aircrap Carrier.

      • Ivan Teo

        Many daft people have a thinking that China has not been an aggressor for the past centuries so they won’t in the future. Actions speaks louder than words. They are also claiming most of south east asia sea, which mostly belongs to the weaker countries. Without US’s presence, China would rob them like nobody’s business.

        http://www.mycharminggirl.com/2012/04/sea-dispute-between-china-asean.html

  • JankyFosci

    Japan unilaterally buys the islands despite the ongoing dispute. The US doesn’t bat an eye. China sets up an ADF. The US goes ballistic and waves its dick around. What a pathetic cuntry.

    • Cauffiel

      All of them.

    • lonetrey / Dan

      Simple solution would’ve been to demolish the islands. They’re barely even islands. Nothing of value would be lost…

      • David

        The islands are not important but they suspect there are vast natural resources in the oceans around the islands (fisheries, oil and mineral resources) not to mention it is a point of projection of power for both countries (and a point of pride for both countries).

      • Guest23

        Had a similar discussion with the Spratly Islands, had a student answer that we should just “sink” the islands to oblivion which is a bit extreme, then another countered we should just let the UN make it a UNESCO world heritage site like the Great Barrier Reef, I’d rather let it be a stalemate without any winners though, if one wins, someone is gonna sabotage any resource exploration there.

        • lonetrey / Dan

          Making it a UNESCO world heritage site would actually be preferable by me, a nice peaceful solution.

    • ex-expat
      • JankyFosci

        Oh I was wrong. They did bat an eye. Actually they told Japan: “You shouldn’t do that because it’s fucking stupid”. Japan did anyway. Then the USA did nothing. Weird, right!

    • David

      but we have such nice dicks for waving. lol Seriously, Japan and China are acting like little children who want to kill each other and America is the bad guy? LMAO

      • JankyFosci

        Yes, good job. You’ve spent trillions on the military instead of education and healthcare. And those trillions have killed millions of people in the Middle East and Asia over the past several decades. That’s sure something to be proud of.

        • Why should the govt spend money on health care and education? That is the households responsibility. Govt is there to do things just like this – DEFENCE. The USA is a great country in that it doesn’t treat it’s citizens like children that need to be babied and have everything done for them. That is why the USA went to the moon. It is the ultimate in intellectual and physical freedom there. I would love to win that damn green card lottery – been so many damn years though! :-S

          • JankyFosci

            How did a dumb comment like this comment get voted up? Only on Chinasmack do the retards get voted up for arguing AGAINST education spending. Defence? Since when was bombing Libya out of defence? Give me a break.

          • o_O

        • My_honourable_lord

          ‘And those trillions have killed millions of people in the Middle East and Asia over the past several decades. That’s sure something to be proud of.’

          As if you give a crap about those people. How many have you killed in xinajiang and tibet? Hypocrite.

          • JankyFosci

            Millions vs thousands. Learn2math.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Learn2English.

          • JankyFosci

            Good one.

          • My_honourable_lord

            You take a riposte in good humour. Nice Sir! Regards:-)

        • Tiny Tim

          And the Chinese government is an angel now? How many uneducated chinese and how many with no proper health care? Maybe you were one of lucky ones who immigrated…how much money did you steal or how body parts did you sell to buy your ticket to freedom?

          • JankyFosci

            Did I say that China is innocent? Nope. But clearly if we look at history and current actions as well, the US is obviously the biggest bad guy on the entire planet if we are looking at the millions of innocent people killed via drones, bombings and government overthrows..

          • linette lee

            …you steal and how body parts did you sell to buy your ticket …
            You are a racist loser. Why China always attract attention from all these racist losers. So racist and low class. You are low class and racist. Are you a KKK? lol….

          • Tiny Tim

            And you’re not??? My problem is with those oxymoronic, xenophobic nationalistic nutjobs living in our country. My problem isn’t with those who can’t afford and deserve to live outside of China. You come here and first opportunity you get, you backstab all of us, including the deserving Chinese. You tainted and cheapened your citizenship amongst us with your views. You violated and breached your allegence to you new country, that to me, is more unforgivable…

          • linette lee

            How do I backstab “all of you”? Because I have my opinion about how USA handle their foreign policy? I see so much flaws in USA history. So much wars. When was the last time USA not in wars? With Russia, Vietnam, north korea, iraq, now you are pushing USA to lead to attack China with military weapons. YOu are preaching war = killing of people in China. Did I ever say China should go to war to kill Japanese, American, or philippine?
            I hope you are not saying you represent the majortiy opinion of USA folks. That is just sad.

          • TheSOP

            You have the gall to point fingers at my country but white wash the vast number of crimes that the totalitarian regime you are supporting has committed including many wars and the colonization of non-Chinese land. You are a hypocrite. You are an apologist for this regime, bad mouthing the US but cheer leading the imperialism of the PRC. You have zero credibility. You are no American.

          • Tiny Tim

            You are entitled to your opinion, as well as I, but I never said anything about war or of hating all Chinese, did I? I need not to remind you again on this matter.
            My question to you is “If this turns ugly, meaning choosing sides, which side do you side with?

          • linette lee

            Just admit it. You are a racist against Chinese people. It’s okay. Be bold about it no need to hide.

          • linette lee

            You need to understand China is not middle east. A missile assault from USA killing mainland people in China will surely erupt into WWIII. China understands they are already surrounded by USA military forces all over the pacific region. They will not wait for Beijing to be bombed and be destroyed. They will use nuclear weapons if they have to before it gets to that. China will not be a sitting duck letting USA rain missiles killing their people and destroy Beijing. This will be a nuclear war.

          • linette lee

            And what about China dropping two Atomic bombs in USA and justify it by saying to end the war faster to avoid further loss of innocent life. Isn’t it the same excuse USA used to drop two Abombs in Japan?

          • TheSOP

            Disgusting, now you are joking about nuking the US? Really I mean this; get out of my country you worthless 美奸

          • mr.wiener

            …I seem to remember a certain “Sanlu drinking wumao” telling laowai to get out of his country….and you are starting to sound just like him.

          • TheSOP

            I hold the position that anyone who holds the US in contempt and holds allegiances to a foreign state (especially a totalitarian dictatorship with an aggressive, expansionary, and hegemonic agenda that threatens the peace and stability of the US and its allies) has no business immigrating to the US or holding a US passport. I don’t think this out of the mainstream whatsoever. You care to demur?

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

          • mr.wiener

            Love it or leave it huh? I think your plurality of voices just shrunk.
            This isn’t to say I’m supporting Linette’s position, I’m just upholding that other great tradition of yours, you know the one about not agreeing with someone but being willing to protect their right to say it.

          • TheSOP

            There is a difference between dissent and maintaining allegiances to a foreign state Wiener, you and I both know that. The two are not the same. Your girl Linnette is even on here ranting about nuking the US and her allies, for fucks sake man do I really need to break it down Barney style for you?

          • mr.wiener

            Tempting as it is to think of you as a purple dancing dinosaur, I’ll pass on that.
            Linette cannot be taken seriously as she will talk about pan-asian unity one minute and launch into violent anti Chinese mainlanderKoreanJapanese rant the next.
            Calling people traitors and telling them to leave your country on the other hand…..maybe you have more in common with some of the Chinese uber-nationalists than you think.

          • TheSOP

            Perhaps. I don’t doubt they love their country also, the difference is when my country is fucking up I call it out because I want whats best for our interests. China is fucking up now and Chinese nationalist are heehawing like a bunch of bloodthirsty rednecks instead of counseling caution.

          • ex-expat

            Sorry mr.wiener, but I don’t believe that is the same thing. Foreigners in China are temporary, and different from people who falsely swear allegiance to a country just to obtain a passport and reap the benefits. Where are you from, Australia is it? Surely you can’t say that you are welcoming to the immigrants that come to Australia and don’t have the country’s best interest at heart, can you?

            Similar to the US, Australia also has an oath of allegiance when becoming a citizen:

            From this time forward
            I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
            whose democratic beliefs I share,
            whose rights and liberties I respect, and
            whose laws I will uphold and obey.

            If someone wants to come and live in America and criticize it, good for them. I believe we can benefit from the ability to look at our society objectively. That however, is different from loyalty to a foreign state.

          • linette lee

            no, I am just asking how would USA feel if China use the same excuse USA used to drop A bomb on other country.
            By the way, don’t try to use Chinese word. Your Chinese is very poor.

          • TheSOP

            I’ll do as I please.

          • linette lee

            You are American. All Americans originally coming from another country. What’s your ethinicity?

          • TheSOP

            Thats right, my family are all immigrants to my knowledge including German, yet my family have all served supporting the war effort against the Nazis and the Japanese, despite sharing an ethnic lineage with some of the people they were fighting. Why? Because they were real Americans who know that the ideals of America come before any ethnic affinity. That is what makes them real Americans, and you a simple PRC stooge who simply uses America and then badmouths her in support of a aggressive dictatorship who is stealing the lands and seas of her neighbors much as the Nazis and Imperial Japanese did in the lead up to WW II. You need to reflect on your shitty morals and behavior.

          • Germandude

            You know, I don’t agree on everything you posted on this thread. However, many of your points are right.

            That your post that I am replying to you on here now, got downvoted, is simply hilarious.

            linette lee is the true locust, feeding from the chances of a nation that gives her those, while spitting on its values. However, her pride is so low, that she takes the passport while there is ZERO understanding of culture, democracy and the whole risk within the current “Island-situation” in Asia from her side.

            I am 100% behind the US for once in this topic. Simply because of the true statement: “History teaches people that history teaches people nothing”

            And to bring a context to Nazi Germany & The Empire of Japan in the past and the actions of the Chinese government at present, use google translate on this one:

            Wehret den Anfängen

          • TheSOP

            Wehret den Anfängen、I like that.

          • linette lee

            You know, if you are hiding so much about your origin your ethinicity it’s like telling people you are ashamed of where your family from originally. Maybe from a country that’s more corrupt than China?? lol.

            I am not ashamed to tell people I am Chinese. Most Chinese don’t have problem identifying themselves as Chinese eventhough they don’t like China gov’t.
            I am not crazy about China gov’t system and I know China is full of corruption. I don’t agree with China claiming some of SEA territories, but diaoyu is a different story. And when I see USA is pointing their finger at China about imperialism I feel like a pot calling the kettle black.

          • TheSOP

            I’ve never hidden the fact that I am American, what are you even talking about.

            Senkaku is not a different story, it is part of a pattern of imperialistic behavior carried out by China. Just today the Indian press has another series of articles about Chinese officials how recently said Arunachal Pradesh is illegally occupied by India. Southeast Asians are worried about the Chinese aircraft carrier sent to bully them about islands that belong to Southeast Asians. China is stirring up trouble all throughout East Asia while the US has helped defend Southeast Asians against Chinese imperialism. The US has had a terrible foreign policy over the last decade in the Middle East but in East Asia America has been nothing but a peacekeeper and China has been nothing but a bully and a problem causer.

          • My_honourable_lord

            China nuke America? Woman stop drinking. You can’t handle it.

          • mr.wiener

            Dumb-arse comment dear.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ummmm. Hello Mr. Wiener. I think more detergent will be needed and your neighbours may not have enough. I did say carnage did i not? :-) I’m TRYING to stay in the background of all of this.

          • TheSOP

            Haha, even your English is degrading into Eattot levels mindless blather. If anyone is racist its Sino-chauvinists such as yourself who place allegiance to race before reason, diplomacy, and peace in the region.

        • David

          Since you have a different reality you like to live on (where ignorance is apparently a virtue) I will not interrupt your rant. Continue to vent, that is what the powerless people like to do.

          • JankyFosci

            Ah and ad hominem attacks are what the ignorant and otherwise clueless like to use.

          • David

            Good, then we both agree these are your defining characteristics, since you started this post (and continued it) by insulting Americans. It is always satisfying to find something we can agree on.

          • JankyFosci

            And yet you have offered nothing of substance to the argument as of yet. Strange isn’t it? All that sass but not a single morsel of intelligent debate in you. At least ex-expat tries to sound intelligent.

          • David

            I written plenty on other parts of this page but you are not a person who wants a real discussion, you simply want to bash. So feel free.

    • Butsu

      Do you know why they bought them? So that they couldn’t fall into the hands of that nutjob ex.governor Ishihara. But, I guess everything would’ve been so much better if they let Ishihara buy them right, then none of this would’ve happened. :’)

      • JankyFosci

        Wow. The Japanese nationally bought it so a local mayor couldn’t! How honourable and politically sensitive of them! ;) Do you even read what you write? I can just imagine the response if you switched Chinese with Japanese there.

        • Butsu

          Do you know what kind of guy Ishihara is? The sole purpous of him buying them in the first place was probably to upset the Chinese. Now, if that kind of guy gets the islands/rocks he would undoubtly not stop there. When the goverment bought them, it was to keep the status quo.

          • linette lee

            I am pretty sure Japan and China don’t want to go to war. It’s not helping their economy. But the non Chinese Japanese here are flaming war and want USA to defeat China so no need to pay trillion dollars loan back. So ridiculous. lol. They think China is like middle east they can each carve a piece of the cake and plenty oil. lol.
            No one cares about the safety of USA troops over seas. The rich Americans and politicians don’t. They just want control, power, and money. They don’t want to be under China or in deficit.

          • JankyFosci

            Yes I’ve heard all about what he would’ve done but you seriously expect ANYONE to believe that Japan buying the islands and holding onto those property rights was anything less than stupid and aggressive?

          • Butsu

            Since the Japanese person who owned the islands prior to the buy of them, was obviously going to sell to whoever offered the highest amount of money. So the goverment shoulv have just kicked backed and watch Ishihara buy them? How is that not even more stupid?

          • JankyFosci

            Ishihara is involved in politics I believe. I believe the Japanese government has the power unofficially or officially to ask someone to not buy islands, They could’ve enacted laws to prevent it from occurring if needed. But they didn’t. Please don’t tell me you believe the only solution was for the national government to buy them instead and keep them. That’s Chinese level propaganda lmao

    • My_honourable_lord

      Do you mean ballistic as in armaments? If you are using that term metaphorically then it is the chinese who are going ballistic. About the dick waving comment? You provoke sir. America has its fault but i would not be calling them pathetic. There is nothing pathetic about America’s military might. What I find pathetic is a country unilaterally declaring a defence zone only to have America, Japan and Korea streaking bombers across it the very next day and, china not being able to do shit squat diddly about it. Pathetic you say?

      • JankyFosci

        I mean ballistic as in sending B52 bombers into the area because China set up an ADF. That’s the most American thing I’ve heard of and nothing to be proud of. When did the USA send B52 bombers over to Tokyo when they BOUGHT the islands despite the dispute? They didn’t. The USA has always been about hypocrisy and double standards. Remember the whole of last year when they were accusing China of spying on everyone and now it’s come out that the real demon in the room is the NSA? What’s sad enough is that you’re brainwashed enough to be proud of America doing something like this.

        • ex-expat

          Governments spy, that’s what they do, and it’s what they will always do. As much as I hate the Chinese government, I do not blame them for spying on other governments. I DO blame them for spying/stealing intellectual property from corporations because they are unable to come up with good ideas on their own. Business should be on a level playing field, which unfortunately is a concept that is disregarded on the mainland.

          Why would the US send bombers over Tokyo? That doesn’t make any sense. Though contrary to your statement, we do have something to do with the situation. We have an agreement to protect them, in this case from the world’s biggest asshole.

          • JankyFosci

            I’ve never heard of the Chinese government being caught for stealing IP from corporations. I’ve heard of Chinese companies being caught doing so but then again I’ve also heard of many, many American companies doing so. And explain to me why Germany is spied on so much by the Americans?

            The US should send bombers over Tokyo because they unilaterally purchased the islands despite the ongoing dispute. The US and its media has been waving its dicks over how they’re merely trying to stem the bullying and aggression so why are they doing all this over an ADF from China but not the Japanese ADF or the Japanese PURCHASE OF THE FREAKING ISLANDS. People are so stupid.

          • ex-expat

            “I’ve heard of Chinese companies being caught doing so,” Chinese companies = state owned enterprises = government.

            Please provide sources that show US companies stealing IP.

            Regardless of whether Japan’s government purchased the islands or not, it was theirs to begin with. So again, your statement makes no sense.

            Also, do you care to attempt to justify why Chinese authorities request that ALL planes entering its ADZ contact them, even though they are the only country to have such protocol?

          • JankyFosci

            Right, and MS/Google/etc which has worked with the US government for years via the NSA and all of whom have well connected lobbyists are not considered state-owned enterprises. Weird how the NSA focuses so much on Germany. Funny that eh? How stupid and naive are you really? There’s dozens of articles every year on technology websites of American companies losing IP lawsuits . Start at Engadget. I’m not going to do your homework for you. How can someone be so ignorant to think there are no companies from any country (especially one as huge as the US) that steals IP? Seriously.

            What are your arguments that those islands belong to Japan? Last time I checked that’s under dispute. Actually, nevermind. Even if you agree with Japan (which I’m sure you would since you’re clueless about everything else), it doesn’t matter because the point is it’s still in dispute so Japan’s purchase of them only antagonizes and would be seen as so if it was China that had done that.

            Do you have a source to say that only China’s ADZ affects commercial aircraft? I’ve read the US doesn’t but I don’t believe that means that China is the “only country” to have such protocol. Do you have a source proving otherwise? Japan Times actually has an article comparing the differences between their own ADZ and China’s and they don’t even mention that being a difference so I’d have to assume it’s the same in that respect,

          • ex-expat

            Fail #1

            Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc. HATE the fact that they have to comply with the government’s requests for information.

            http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-11-19/news/44242549_1_marissa-mayer-user-data-yahoo-and-google

            Fail #2

            What does any of this have to do with the NSA and Germany?

            Fail #3

            Calling someone stupid is not a good way to convey a point, it only detracts from your credibility.

            Fail #4

            American companies losing IP lawsuits has NOTHING to do with what I said…I am talking about companies hacking other companies stealing their information, all the while being allowed to do so by the government.

            Fail #5

            If you make a claim, you should be able to back it up with sources. Which I will now do regarding the ADZ protocol:

            “The Chinese also imposed requirements that other countries do not, notably that all aircraft — even those that are not flying to a China destination but are simply passing through — provide identification and flight plans.”

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/28/world/asia/chinas-move-puts-airspace-in-spotlight.html?_r=0

            Fail #6

            You criticized when I asked you for a source, but just now asked me to provide one.

          • JankyFosci

            1. How brave of those companies to encrypt their data AFTER being exposed by Snowden! They couldn’t possibly be saving face! And they HATE that they have to comply with the US’s requests for info so much that they comply with them thousands of times a year! If only they showed the same amount of fibre like when Google publically attacked China for hacking and censorship. Some people are -really- stupid and naive.

            Google has a 88% compliance rate with US government requests by the way, They HATE complying so much!

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/08/27/facebook-first-report-on-government-data-requests-shows-it-denies-u-s-surveillance-demands-more-often-than-google/

            2, The NSA was known to heavily spy on Germany, So much that now German companies fear US companies for industrial espionage as much as China! The Germans aren’t stupid.

            http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d1a163ac-fdea-11e2-a5b1-00144feabdc0.html

            3. I call a spade a spade.

            4. It has everything to do with what you said. You were talking about IP theft. IP theft does not exclude everything outside of hacking. It can involve former employees disclosing secrets for example. Seriously, how ignorant are you? And please provide concrete evidence Chinese companies are hacking to steal industrial secrets with the approval of the Chinese government. I want CONCRETE evidence, not the usual ACCUSATIONS or SUSPICIONS or weak evidence parroted by the media. ACTUAL evidence. I recall reading a large report

            5. Please provide a source that does not use ambigious wording. “that other countries do not” does not say anything about which countries don’t or which countries do. Every other article I’ve read notes that the US doesn’t apply their protocol to all aircraft and the Japan Times article on the difference between the Japanese and Chinese ADF does NOT mention this being a difference. Use some logic here.

            6. You wanted a source showing that American companies have previously been found guilty of IP theft. That’s like an Iranian asking for proof that a % of Iranian men are homosexual. It’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and almost unbelievable

            You want sources though? Here:

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras

            http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130909/04383424450/latest-leak-shows-nsa-engaging-economic-espionage-not-fighting-terrorism.shtml

            http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industrial-espionage-in-france-mexico-brazil-china-and-all-around-the-world/5355026

            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/820758.stm

            “But former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall Street Journal, acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage against its European allies, though he did not specify if Echelon was involved.”

          • ex-expat

            1.

            Companies comply with the government when they have to as required by law. If they wanted to comply, it would not be 67%, 88%, whatever, it would be 100%. Do you think Chinese companies can refuse even 1% if they want to?

            2.

            No, it has nothing to do with it. I am talking, as I have said several times, about companies hacking companies.

            3.

            Again, no reason to name call. It just shows a lack of a legitimate argument.

            4.

            Again, no. See #2. A silly request to provide actual proof, as that is obviously not possible. Though there is a plethora of information available on the subject.

            5.

            I don’t think you are understanding what I am saying. Regardless:

            http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/after-unilateral-air-defense-move-beijing-sends-carrier-another

            6.

            I never asked you to show me proof that American companies have been found guilty of IP theft. Though even if I did, none of those articles do that.

          • JankyFosci

            1. Yet Google managed to defy Chinese law regarding censorship and made public outcries about it. Weird right?

            2. Oh because the US government which hands out contracts to massive corporations like Raytheon is just spying on Brazilian corporations and German corporations and Chinese corporations to… help the government. Not US corporations (their competitors) of course. I can’t roll my eyes enough right now. But I guess you’re right. We don’t have evidence of massive hacking of US companies against non-US ones. Just the US government who work US companies very deeply. Haha.

            3. Better than an actual lack of legitimate argument.

            4. http://www.symantec.com/about/news/release/article.jsp?prid=20130206_01

            “Half of employees who left or lost their jobs in the last 12 months kept confidential corporate data, according to a global survey from Symantec(Nasdaq: SYMC), and 40 percent plan to use it in their new jobs. The results show that everyday employees’ attitudes and beliefs about intellectual property (IP) theft are at odds with the vast majority of company policies.”

            The US was involved in that study. Hence, that is proof that US companies are involved in IP theft too. Did you want an article showing that there are homosexuals in the US too? Lmao.

            5. I understand perfectly but I’m still waiting for your source that says ONLY China has that sort of ADIZ protocol. That’s what you claimed and you provided a source that uses ambigious wording that stated that “other countries” don’t follow that protocol. Does that mean ALL other countries? Nope. Your newest source only mentions the US and Japanese ADZ as a comparator.

            6.”Please provide sources that show US companies stealing IP.”

            Forgetful little goldfish are we? Hahah.

            Oh so you don’t think the articles of the NSA committing economic espionage is enough. Or the CIA director admitting they conducted economic espionage against Europeans (for the benefit of not US corporations but US government of course! lmao)

            Okay. Here you go:

            http://www.wright.edu/rsp/Security/Spystory/Industry.htm

            Still waiting for your concrete evidence of Chinese companies hacking with the approval of the CHinese government btw.

        • My_honourable_lord

          How old are you if I may ask?

  • linette lee

    “If the Northeast Asia free trade zone is formed, it will be an entity that is even more competitive than the European Union. Highly skilled workers, cheap labor costs, financial groups, it’ll have everything that one expects to find”

    Peace and unity in Asia = prosperity.

    • Lord_Helmet

      This must be the Thanksgiving weekend not want to offend people comment. Maybe on Monday you will change your mind.

      • linette lee

        When did I ever say war is good and peace is bad?

    • Jack Yu

      http://www.foxbusiness.com/economy-policy/2013/11/29/south-korea-to-have-preliminary-talks-on-joining-tpp-yonhap/

      This will be the nail in any Northeast Asia Free Trade Zone’s coffin. China has bullied ROK into the arms of TPP, Japan is well into their TPP negotiations anyway, so all that is left will be a Russian-China-North Korean-Mongolian Free Trade Zone. US and EU will shit their pants.

      • linette lee

        China should just buy diaoyu island from Japan or come up with a treaty to fish in the water around diaoyu. There is always other ways to get back and get even later on. Or you know what, warn the Chinese fishermen do not resist arrest. Continue to fish there the higher the number of fishing vessels the better. Let the Japan coast guards arrest them. Urge Japan not to use any violent during arrest. What Japan gonna do? Japan has to pay for the expenses of jailing them or fly them back to China or Taiwan. They can’t hold the fishermen hostage or jailed for long without paying for all expenses feeding and jailing them. lol. If Japan politicians complain during meeting just give them a smile and politely say the problem is not that big. It’s been greatly exaggerated. You know, the same way how Japan politicians behave. China needs to learn how to play their game.

        China should work on improving and increase more trading with its neighbors. Keep peace and keep them close to China. There is other ways to get even and war is not the way. You don’t have to like or agree with your neighbors but don’t fight with them.

        • TheSOP

          The islands arent the problem, its the imperialistic mindset of China which is driving the crisis. Senkakus is an excuse, once it is gone the CCP will find a new issue to create a crisis over. They are already publishing articles saying Japan doesnt have a valid claim to Okinawa.

          Best to put a bully in his place, never placate him. China is a bully.

        • Lord_Helmet

          Clueless, it is not or ever will be about fish.

        • Germandude

          And here they are, laughing about the brainless masses…

      • TheSOP

        Mongolia can get on TPP, no way they want to end up like their colonized brothers in “Southern Mongolia”!

    • David

      Northeast Asia Free Trade Zone. . . hmmm where have I heard that before? Oh yea, sounds like the “Greater East Asian Prosperity Sphere” Japan said it was creating during WW II. With the mutual hatred China, Japan and Korea each have for the other two, I would not hold my breath on this happening soon (of course with all the land China now claims it looks like they are trying to do it by all by themselves)..

      • Guest23

        Lots of discussions of a “Asian Century” where Asians lead the world in economics, politics, and culture, only problem is, who’s gonna be the alpha wolf? really don’t see that much of a power bloc with those three, seeing as mutual rivalries and nationalist rhetoric prevents them from agreeing on something.

        • David

          While certainly individuals and individual businesses can agree on things, when it comes to governments, I think you could change your “something” to “anything” and still be right.

          • Guest23

            One thing that pops up on my mind is North Korea, they all agree on that.

          • David

            Well, China might know NK is the bad-step child but they still protect them in the U.N. Security council, vetoing the worst of the sanctions we have tried to impose for the last two decades.

          • Guest23

            Only agreement is that they don’t want a messy reunification or another Korean War that might be bad for their borders.

      • linette lee

        I think China gave up on trying to get Korea and Japan to agree and free trades. So hard it’s sad. These three nations are hopeless. China decides to be the only Asia country to hold power and will not be under any western nations.

        • David

          Except cooperating and sharing mutual interests (like defense) does not make you “under” another country. Nobody in the U.S. thinks of Japan or Korea as “under U.S. control”. This is only said by ultra nationalists of those countries or by other countries who are trying to insult them. We have a HUGE trade deficit still with both of those countries, if they were our “bitches” as many people have called them (normally Chinese or Europeans calling the U.S. imperial), than we would have a trade surplus with them, the way the only colonial powers had with their colonies. We get important and strategic military access to the Asia theatre by being their partners, but what they get in return, in terms of military protection, economic aid and access to U.S. markets, is so lop-sided in their favor it is almost laughable. The Philippines found this out when they canceled the contracts we had for bases on their islands (due to political pressure) and are now begging the U.S. to come back.

          • Guest23

            Blame it on the idiotic militants and politicians who wanted to win favor by being all patriotic by making the issue of prostitution of Filipino women that big of an issue that much while we still had the sex industry capital Angeles city, they kept yelling it as *US is raping the Philippines*, they already gave up on the country because our Government was still recovering from a messy dictatorship and the people started blaming the US for everything else.

          • David

            Well, I always found the Philippines and Filipino people some of the nicest and friendliest people in the world. I was sad we we left there and I hoe we can work something out to get us back there in force (no pun intended)..

        • TheSOP

          So typical and reactionary, saying that countries that work with the West are “under” the West. Maybe they dont want to be “under” China, the West treats people as equals, China mouths equality while seeking hegemony over other Asians. Noone wants to live in your sick fantasy land of Sino-supremacy. East Asians know their interests and thats why they maintain a mutually beneficial relationship with the West. But you who bad mouths the West and America runs there at the first opportunity, such a hypocrite, you are completely unworthy of an American passport. Please leave my country at the soonest possible opportunity and leave that American passport on the way out.

    • TheSOP

      Unity in Asia is undermined by the petulant little emperor sitting in the middle throwing a childish tintertantrum, America being more mature is making sure the little twit stays in line. Guess what, thats good for the little emperor and good for his neighbors. USA+Democratic Free Asia= Peace and Prosperity. Sit down China, you’re being a child.

    • David

      Is the EU competitive? I know some countries IN the EU are very competitive but the EU itself seems to be the most competitive when doing inter-union trading between members and no so much for export. : )

  • Lord_Helmet

    Reading some of the chinese peoples comments on CNN about this. They are very gun-ho about going back to China and protecting the mother land which i can understand but do they really have any idea what a war entails? China does have a massive army but with what experience besides training exercises and lets face it todays war is won in the air. China is so outmatched. US airforce is years ahead of any country, not to mention they have real time experience.
    Whats truly amazing is the lack of respect these countries have for China. Chinese officials love to make new rules as they go along, kind of like doing business in China. This island is ours, this is our air space………This just seems to be a gesture of F@ck off china you never play by the rules so why should we.

    • lonetrey / Dan

      Honestly, those commentors on CNN wouldn’t even made a difference, if they actually went back.

      What are they, the 0.000001%?

      • ex-expat

        If they aren’t just 五毛 anyway.

      • TheSOP

        I’m not worried about them going back, in fact I hope that anyone who comes to the US or is born here and maintains ethnic allegiances to a foreign state simply based on their ethnic heritage should buy a one way plane ticket and drop off their passport on the way out. Fuck them, good riddance (Linnette).

        But it is not them I worry about, it is these types, the types that stay and infiltrate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_operations_in_the_United_States#Spy_cases

        • Tiny Tim

          Well said…I don’t have a problem any of them becoming a citizen of whatever country, it’s this backstabbing by these individuals. It is sad when a citizenship is so cheapened by these people. They are the first ones to pull the victim race card and the first ones to run to their mother country’s embassy. They do not assimilate with all of us in becoming citizens, but they choose to segregate themselves from us. Our government’s have failed miserably in screening these leeches in our society, especially Canada. If you trace ALL the stolen money that was taken from the chinese people in China, you will find most of them hiding in Vancouver.
          On another note, kudos to the Spanish National Court in indicting and issuing arrest warrants for Jiang Zemin (genocide), Li Peng, Qiao Shi, Chen Kuiyuan, Peng Pelyun and recently investigating Hu Jintao for crimes in Tibet.

      • nqk123

        most of those posts are by 50cent army. trust me on this one

        • TheSOP

          You think 50cents are working on Western media now like they do with Chinese media? That would be an interesting development. I wish there was a Snowden-esque Chinese whistle blower who flys to the US with a laptop full of goodies exposing such a program, wouldnt that be a media coup!

          • nqk123

            the 50cent army is very world wide. there are millions of them. using names from difference nations to defense China. I noticed this for quite some time now

          • wes707

            Have you ever read comments on The Economist, Financial Times, Bloomberg, CNN, etc? Wumao are all over; part of the CPC “soft power” budgeting for sure.

          • Alex Dương

            So you’ve read their comments, and it seems that you know they aren’t written with perfect English. I’d like to see some examples of Chinese Americans making comments similar (or exactly the same as) fifty centers’.

          • wes707

            “In the West, I believe books criticizing China are the only ones available about the country, apart from some cookbooks and travel guides. The West is willing to translate and publish only those books that are damning to China. Although they don’t see it like that, censorship in the West is much stronger than in China.

            When I go to any major Chinese bookstore in Beijing or Shanghai or anywhere else, I see thousands of books written by the people who are promoting political and economic systems that greatly differ from the Chinese system.

            Now go to the big mainstream bookstores in New York or Chicago or Paris or Sydney, and see with your own eyes how many books promoting the Communist system or Latin American socialism there are on the front rows. Zero!

            Therefore, Chinese people are much better informed about Western capitalism and the Western political system than Western readers are about China.

            There is one essential reason: For the first time in modern history, the Western dominance of the world is being seriously challenged. And the West is panicking. It is too accustomed to rule.

            China is not interested in dictating, but the very fact that the most populous nation on Earth is defending its right to choose its own course is maddening to a great number of Westerners.”
            ………………………………………………………………………………..

            “China has more freedom of speech, because in China, there are voices against the top 1%. In the “free” world, such voices are effectively manipulated and suppressed by the media owned by the top 1%.

            Think of this, after 2008 financial crisis, not a single politician or activist stood up. How is this possible in a democratic country?”

            …………………………………………………………………………………

            “The Third Plenum upholds China’s “socialism with Chinese characteristics” and “socialist market economy”. Those who could not understand or refuse to understand these two concepts would not understand the achievements of the Third Plenum. It also upholds the Deng Wisdom of “crossing the river by feeling for the stones” meaning there will not be any “Big Bang” economic reforms.

            Those who were hoping for hasty Gorbachev Reforms (meaning reforms that cause short-term pain and long-term maim) for the Chinese economy are terribly disappointed.

            The pledge to allow the market [forces] to play a ‘decisive role’ in the allocation of resources is consistent with a market economy. The socialist market economy is also a market economy. However, this does not mean that state plays no role in the economy. That would be the morphing of China’s socialist market economy into a capitalist market economy and China’s “socialism with Chinese characteristics” into capitalism as practised in the West where the top 1% could perpetually maximize profits at the expense of the rest of the people who would be struggling with escalating high costs of living. An invisible hand keeps stealing not only from their wallets and bank accounts, but also their earnings and savings.

            In the socialist market economy, the state plays not only a leading role in the development of the economy, but also in mitigating the capitalist excesses and chaos in the market. So it is capable of a high rate of economic growth with low inflation and creating millions of real jobs year after year.

            In 1978, China discarded soviet communism in favour of a socialist market economy. The brilliance of Deng Xiaoping is that, after studying the “miracle” economies of the East Asian tigers, he concluded that socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. He termed the economy in which socialist SOEs and capitalist enterprises function together as a socialist market economy. Unlike the capitalist enterprises, the focus of the socialist SOEs, within the country, is national development and not maximization of profits. Therefore, when capitalist market economists diagnose the socialist SOEs as “inefficient” because the socialist SOEs do not make as much profits as the capitalist enterprises, they miss the point.

            Shenzhen is an example of how the state with its socialist SOEs transformed a piece of almost empty land into a very successful economic story. The socialist SOEs created the infrastructure and other necessary conditions for the capitalist enterprises to blossom. And Deng could declare “to get rich is glorious” in his socialist market economy without contradiction as it is legitimate for the capitalists, within the law and without serious harm to society, to maximize profit, create employment and pay taxes so long as the government remains socialist.

            Reforms will be introduced gradually and carefully, guided by the Deng Wisdom “of crossing the river by feeling for the stones”. This Wisdom implies, if you cannot find the stones, then do not cross the river. China’s economy is not in the state of economic emergency unlike the economies in the West. Stability, especially financial stability, is of paramount important, without which it is impossible to implement any reform without risking disaster and social chaos. She will not be threatened or scared into economic self-castration like what had happened to Japan.

            Financial stability requires a ceiling on deposit and lending rates, a stable USD-CNY exchange rate (until China’s foreign trade and investments are primarily in RMB) and certain capital controls.

            Of course, China has many problems; some of them are serious and urgent. A major problem is whether China’s socialist market economy would morph into state capitalism like the tiger economies before her with her socialist SOEs turning into or becoming capitalist SOEs, focusing on maximizing profits from the people just like any other capitalist enterprise. And what to do with the existing capitalist SOEs owned by the local governments that are hurting the capitalist enterprises in China’s socialist market economy instead of supporting them.”

          • Alex Dương
          • wes707

            Sorry, someone plagiarized that on The Economist comment section.

            Here are commenters on The Economist:
            https://www.economist.com/users/ztoa/comments
            https://www.economist.com/users/iching88/comments
            https://www.economist.com/user/3817565/comments

          • Robert Rou

            So how do these comments qualify as wumao? And what conditions have you placed to judge someone as wumao vs someone expressing their right to personal opinion?

          • wes707

            Because practically every comment is in defense of China.

            The Chinese government even admits they employ wumao:
            http://www.globaltimes.cn/china/society/2010-01/499946.html

            This is from Wiki:
            (1) To the extent possible make America the target of criticism. Play down the existence of Taiwan.

            (2) Do not directly confront [the idea of] democracy; rather, frame the argument in terms of “what kind of system can truly implement democracy.”

            (3) To the extent possible, choose various examples in Western countries of violence and unreasonable circumstances to explain how democracy is not well-suited to capitalism.

            (4) Use America’s and other countries’ interference in international affairs to explain how Western democracy is actually an invasion of other countries and [how the West] is forcibly pushing [on other countries] Western values.

            (5) Use the bloody and tear-stained history of a [once] weak people [i.e., China] to stir up pro-Party and patriotic emotions.

            (6) Increase the exposure that positive developments inside China receive; further accommodate the work of maintaining [social] stability.

          • Alex Dương

            ztoa’s English is very obviously non-native to me. It’s more than readable, but it is far from perfect. Example:

            “The problem for India is Indian people themselves can’t unit together on any issue. Western democracy and human right are the most powerful weapon to tear countries apart.”

            Also, Iching88 openly states that he’s Chinese: “I am Chinese and I am certain to land my support to my country to lay claims and safeguard our rights.”

          • wes707

            I’m not saying wumao are Chinese Americans, but there are Han traiblists who hold Western citizenship.

          • Alex Dương

            I accept that statement. Thank you.

          • TheSOP

            I know a few first generation Chinese Americans whose English is far from perfect and how have expressed very pro-PRC positions to me. First generation are still Chinese-American if they hold passports (unfortunately we have some such as Linnette, ethnic chauvinists who despise America yet go there to take advantage of it.)

          • Alex Dương

            You called a guy who described himself as “born in Taiwan to a native Taiwanese family” pro-PRC, so I’m very skeptical that what you call “very pro-PRC positions” is actually that. I’m not saying there are no naturalized Chinese Americans who have “very pro-PRC positions,” but I think you have a tendency to overexaggerate what that is.

          • TheSOP

            Some ethnic Chinese put ethnic allegiances before political system considerations. There are some Taiwanese who support the PRC not because of the CCP but because of its ethnic composition. You understand? See Stephan Xu and Linnette Lee on this thread also.

          • Alex Dương

            The only Taiwanese person I know of that supports the PRC is Li Ao. I don’t know about Stephan, but as for Linnette, based on what she says, she supports the ROC. That is not the same as supporting the PRC. I’ll read some Hidden Harmonies blog entries tomorrow, but right now, I think you have vastly overexaggerated how many ethnic Chinese “put ethnic allegiances before political system considerations.” People like you were wrong in 1941 about Japanese Americans, and you’re wrong now about Chinese Americans.

          • TheSOP

            I never said that the majority of Chinese-Americans are subverting the US in favor of the PRC, that would be ridiculous and I think most past the second generation in particular have not the slightest interest in support the PRC more than your average American (of course anyone who has been to an American college can see that radical politics can make strange bedfellows, there are definitely some white Maoists at Berkely etc). But it is a simple fact that I have observed with some frequency on Facebook Chinese-Americans posting pro-PRC talking points, these are people with real accounts who dont seem to be 50 cent drones. This is not speculating or fearmongering, it is a fact that some people are letting their ethnicity drive their political allegiances, I despise such behavior and think we should stand against it, not pretend it doesnt exist.

          • Alex Dương

            Good. All I wanted was for you to qualify your opinion this way, but you dismissed me as being “PC” earlier this afternoon.

          • TheSOP

            BTW read HH for a week if you can (not good for a rational person’s blood pressure btw). They are Han ethnic chauvinists, many are historical deniers (Great Leap Forward never happened, was a Western plot, few people died etc) and they support China regardless of its behavior or who is running it government.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Hey man, he’s back. Alex is robert zhou.

          • TheSOP

            I don’t know, Khan-rou tried the sneaky routine before and was very transparent and couldnt keep up the act beyond a few posts… but you never know.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Yup. I am really busy so sorry i can’t be here as much as I’d like to. Tomorrow I will take some time out and, um, you know, back on form. Thank you for your insights. See you tomorrow.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Yes. You.

          • Alex Dương

            Make up your mind, netouyo. Am I a fifty center or a Chinese American?

          • My_honourable_lord

            You are Robert Zhou. That makes you a least a 50 cent gathering netizen but wouldn’t be too sure where in the west you dwell/ed.

          • TheSOP

            You think he is a reformed Rou? Hmmmm, not beyond possible, but if so he is showing remarkable restraint :P

          • My_honourable_lord

            Yes he is. Definitely reformed. With a touch of humour and tolerance to go with it. So far he’s doing a pretty good job actually.

          • Alex Dương

            So you’ve chosen fifty center, netouyo?

          • My_honourable_lord

            I saw the comment before it was deleted. You gave yourself away son.

          • Alex Dương

            It wasn’t deleted. Being a netouyo, you simply lacked the intelligence required to find it: http://www.chinasmack.com/?p=54718#comment-1146375469

          • My_honourable_lord

            Roger.

          • Alex Dương

            Acceptance is the first step toward change.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ok. I accept you are deranged.

          • Alex Dương

            That’s too bad. You were making progress.

          • My_honourable_lord

            hahahaha, you are persistent, i’ll give you that.

          • My_honourable_lord

            3rd time you use your pathetic argument about ‘perfect english’ Careful there Robert, or else your language skills will be picked apart.

          • Alex Dương

            I’d like to see a netouyo try that.

          • ex-expat

            They are 100% on Western media. Its unbelievable the amount of garbage they spew in the comments.

        • Tiny Tim

          They are. Their glorious leadership rewarded their loyalty with more repression and more persecution, hardly a reward if you think so for 50 cents. Meanwhile their selected targeting in corruption is best summed up as wolves feasting on themselves stealing each others assets…and you ever wonder where the money ends up and never seeing any of it? And you are wondering why they promise things will be better when they aren’t. Ask yourself, who’s looking after you, obviously not your glorious almighty government. They’re lining their pockets some more.
          You hope to one share the simple luxuries like everyone in the West, maybe like flushing toilet paper down the toilet instead of putting into waste basket or freedom to think. I guess their taking that away from you now, because you can’t graduate from university now in China without passing their Political test exam. Life is good, for 50 cents, because that all your life is worth now, just 50 cents.

    • nqk123

      modern war, number matter but superior tech/weaponry are much more important. China still catching up, maybe 2-3 decades

    • SonofSpermcube

      “lets face it todays war is won in the air.”

      Afghanistan would have been over in hours if this were true.

      • David

        The government of Afghanistan was destroyed and eliminated in days (as was the army/government of Iraq). What has been happening for 11 years is not a war of conquest but a fight to allow the new leadership to take control of the country so they can change the culture (something which may take decades). That is very different than fighting an enemy directly. China (and the U.S. and most other normal countries) have armies, territory and leaders that can be destroyed/conquered/captured.

        • SonofSpermcube

          I think any difference of opinion here hinges on definitions of “winning.”

          I beat you at arm wrestling, but we were really playing hide and seek.

          • David

            True, our initial overwhelming military success has been reversed by politicians (ours and those in Iraq/Afghanistan) fighting for aid so they can steal it.

      • Lord_Helmet

        US was never at war with Afghanistan, they were at war with a certain group of people. If it was against the whole country of Afghanistan it would have been a completely different story.

        • SonofSpermcube

          That is the most elegantly compacted bullshit I’ve read in a long time.

          • Lord_Helmet

            Grazie. Kind reminder: Saturday nights are for socializing not for jerking off to china smack.

    • TheSOP

      The degree to which some Chinese-Americans etc allow ethnic allegiances to color their vision is disturbing. They will support the brigandish behavior of the PRC largely because of their shared ethnicity, revisionist history and CCP talking points just make for good cover.

      • Tiny Tim

        Here is a subtle reminder to some of these Chinese-Americans allowing ethnic allegiances clouding their vision…

        “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

      • Alex Dương

        That’s pretty offensive. I don’t know any Chinese Americans who “support the brigandish behavior of the PRC.”

        • TheSOP

          I’ve seen some. Mostly online. How is it offensive? Are you offended by reality?

          • Alex Dương

            How do you know they’re Chinese American and not Chinese international students in the U.S. or even the infamous fifty centers from mainland China? As a related example, do you think English comments that strongly support right-wing Japanese nationalism are written by Japanese Americans? Because I don’t; I think they’re written by the “netouyo.”

          • TheSOP

            Thats a good question, it was brought up below (50 cents on Western forums). However a number I have seen on Facebook including by people I know. They are Americans. Also look at Hidden Harmonies, it is a den of Chinese nationalists who hold American or Canadian passports but have absolute allegiance to the PRC. The Japanese Americans I know are by and large a level headed group, Korean Americans tend to lean a little bit towards ethno-nationalism and supporting Korea also, but then again Korea is a friendly democracy and isn’t acting as an expansionist imperialist in the region.

          • Alex Dương

            The “about us” section in Hidden Harmonies says that “Allen” is a co-founder of the blog, and he says he was “born in Taiwan to a native Taiwanese family.” Hmm, I really, really, really doubt he’d have “absolute allegiance to the PRC.” Have you met people who describe themselves that way? Most of them do not care for “China” at all; they don’t support the ROC, so why on Earth would they support the PRC?

            Just to be clear, do you agree that English comments favoring right-wing Japanese nationalism are unlikely to have been written by Japanese Americans? Because if you do, then it isn’t a big stretch to say that English comments favoring Chinese “expansionism / imperialism” are unlikely to have been written by Chinese Americans.

            The reason why I say your comment is offensive is because you’re outright stating, not even insinuating, that ethnic ancestry trumps patriotism to the United States. Didn’t we say the same thing about Japanese Americans during World War II? Have we learned nothing from that?

          • TheSOP

            I am saying in some cases, but with what I see as disturbing frequency, I see ethnic Chinese of various non-PRC nationalities (which includes the US but also Canada and even Southeast Asia) mouthing the propaganda of the PRC and advocating positions that are often Sino-centric and not in the interests of their home countries. I see a direct connection between ethnicity and this behavior and in fact many outwardly make such connections. Now you expect me not to call a spade a spade because of what happened to the Japanese-Americans in WWII? You are definitely an American, I can feel the aura or PC thinking radiating here… sorry I will be blunt, I’ve lived outside of America long enough to lose the niceties of PC nonsense. Such behavior of devoting ones allegiances to a foreign state based simply on ones ethnic background should be challenged as it is the antithesis of being an American.

          • Alex Dương

            If I were PC, I’d mumble some nonsense about how I have to respect your viewpoint, you’re not wrong, blah blah blah. I respect that you have a right to give your opinion freely, but I don’t respect the content of your viewpoint, and I do think it is wrong.

          • TheSOP

            To each their own.

          • Alex Dương

            Aye.

          • Stefan Xu

            If you are Chinese regardless of citizenship you must support the PRC whatever they do, otherwise you are a traitor.

          • Zappa Frank

            What about Taiwan?

          • Stefan Xu

            also support PRC since ROC have no chance taking mainland back.

          • Zappa Frank

            You really show your age or less with this comment. So naive. You think Taiwan will support Prc because they are still Chinese? Get up already Taiwan is a US alley.

          • Stefan Xu

            I’m just trying to defend the anti-PRC on this site as much as I can. What I write doesn’t necessarily represent my personal views.

          • linette lee

            I really doubt if USA is in war with China, Taiwan will side with USA. Taiwan will stay neutral the best they can. HK gov’t will also stay neutral and will not let USA use our water to dock their ships importing or exporting. It’s like watching our mother and father fight.

          • Zappa Frank

            Hi is useless and nobody care in a war. Taiwan I bet will join US and will eventually take back the mainland as result. However keep in mind that a war will likely be china vs rest of the world

          • linette lee

            Stop it. Taiwan will not join USA. China vs the world = WWIII
            China will send all her hostile neighbors and USA gifts of nuclear knowing China will not tolerate another invasion.

          • TheSOP

            Yea you were really joking, right. Nuke the US for defending Asia from China’s bullying and thieving imperialism. You really are disgusting.

          • TheSOP

            Why are you in my country?

          • Zappa Frank

            Lunette you’re being childish now. This post seem written by a 10 years old boy.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Lunette you drunk again? How many times do i have to tell you not to get drunk and start posting on CS. How many times? Answer me. Ok here it goes:

            (lunette bent over my knee) SMACK! SMACK! SMACK!. Now GO to your room!

          • linette lee

            Chinese in China, taiwan, and HK have very close bond even though all three have different political views. We don’t agree on everything China gov’t does. And our gov’t system in HK, taiwan, and China are very different. However, we will not tolerate watching China being invaded and carved by other nations.

          • My_honourable_lord

            And what are you going to do about it? What CAN you do about it? Nothing. So shut up silly girl.

          • Stefan Xu

            hey, why all these downwotes?

            PRC = China

          • bprichard

            People are confused because they can’t read. They think you’re espousing that philosophy rather than just explaining certain people’s thought process.

            Or are you actually being serious? Because if so, that’s hilarious and the down votes are well deserved.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ok guys give the kid some space to breathe. How will he learn if we bash him each time he says something?

            Stefan, say your piece but just be careful with the auto backing of china in military affairs. Ultimately it is your decision what to say but there are lots of things you need to learn.

            ‘k bro?

          • Stefan Xu

            What I wrote wasn’t my personal view anyways. Of course you’re not a traitor if you don’t support the PRC.

          • TheSOP

            This is the kind of mindset I most despise. I hope you hand in you passport and return to China, such people have no place in the West.

          • Stefan Xu

            It’s hard for people with foreign citizenship to get permanent residence or Chinese citizenship, for me too.
            I prefer living in China than in the west, I am studying now in Sweden and when I graduate I’m going to try to move to China as you wish.

          • TheSOP

            May your trip be quick, I’m sure you wont become disillusioned at all. You are making the right decision, both for yourself and for the country that you were born in yet hold no allegiance to.

          • Stefan Xu

            I was not born in Sweden but I god Swedish citizenship because of my dad has it.

          • TheSOP

            Yea Swedes have a suicidal immigration policy, in particular taking in so many from the Middle East and North Africa. You are probably the least of Sweden’s immigration problems.

          • Stefan Xu

            Yeah, I’m a very good person and crime-free. I was also one of the best grades in the school too.

          • TheSOP

            You sound like a good person with the exception of your ethnic-chauvanism. What would China have to do to lose your support? When would you say “well I’m Chinese but I dont support the actions of this Chinese state?”

          • Stefan Xu

            Look one thing you must understand is that Chinese always try to show their best side and become very patriotic in front of non-Chinese. But among themselves they recognize many problems and may dislike some action of the government. There are many things I don’t like about government but I never admit it in front of non-Chinese, instead I try to advertise the best of China instead.
            It’s like your kid, you love him or her even though they do mistakes.

          • TheSOP

            I cannot speak for all Americans but I think we are more open about talking frankly about our problems among ourselves and with outsiders, however if a outsider points out our weakness and then cannot do the same for themselves it comes of as a major insult. The Chinese constantly do this. And what you talk about “advertise the best of China instead” only works on ignorant Westerners who dont know anything about China. People like me who have actually lived in Asia and China can only scoff and assume you are trying to insult our intelligence, just as you would scoff if I advertised only the good of America and pretended as if it had no problems, you would think I was trying to play you for an idiot. Look at it that way and you will understand how you are not viewed as genuine.

            You seem young, I wonder how long you’ve actually lived in China? Or has it only been on holiday? Haha, even Chinese nationalists can get jaded, they are not immune.

          • Stefan Xu

            I’m 21 and I lived in China for two years studying Chinese.
            I really like China and I plan going to there after graduation to start my family.

          • TheSOP

            More power to you, at least you are honest in backing up your words with actions unlike Linnette. There are places in China I like a lot as well, but just for a few months. There is nowhere in China I would consider starting a family and laying down longterm roots. Elsewhere in Asia and my hometown in the US I would consider but given China’s pollution, food safety, road safety, and general xenophobia towards foreigners (I’d hate to have a mixed-blood kid going through the Chinese education system, even Japan and Korea have tons of bullying issues) I don’t think China is on the map for my second home away from home. But I plan to continue visiting in the future assuming the government/citizenry doesn’t go apes-hit crazy against foreigners.

          • My_honourable_lord

            You are young but you are beginning to show the signs of deep thought. Look Stefen, don’t allow yourself to get caught up in nationalistic rage. You are now an international citizen and there is much more traveling to be done. Have a look around at the world before settling in china to raise a family.

            Try Singapore, Hong Kong, many other places. Surabaya in Indonesia, incredible chinese community who have held ON to REAL chinese culture. Don’t miss out on these opportunities. Travel young man, and keep an open mind.

          • Stefan Xu

            I know, I’m actually very international not nationalistic at all. I just pretended to be nationalistic.

            I have been to 30 countries including Singapore and Malaysia. My mother’s Malaysian Chinese.

            Reason I like China is because I very interested in the developments and the growth. My girlfriend is also PRC Chinese.

            Do you feel PRC is not real Chinese culture?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Do you feel PRC is not real Chinese culture?

            Go to Surabaya, Indonesia. You will find the answer to your question there. Padwan.

            ‘i have been to 30 countries…’

            ‘Been to’ is not ‘have lived’ hence is not experience. Lesson 1.

          • Germandude

            Stefan, while I can understand your thoughts about the experiences you have made in Sweden (not being too welcomed, being regarded as a foreigner) and the impressions you had in China (opposite of Sweden), I am having the impression that you haven’t stayed in China long enough. Especially since you are a student, you should not expect that work life is as easy as studying.

            I am just afraid that you come to China with wrong expectations and that the picture you have drawn about China is slowly breaking. ESPECIALLY when you are having wife and kids. I wish you all the best in your future.

            But there is one thing that pisses me off with you.

            “I know, I’m actually very international not nationalistic at all. I just pretended to be nationalistic.” (PRETENDED)

            It’s not the first time that you admit to trolling! Please stop that shit because it would directly give you some more credit here.

          • Stefan Xu

            Ok, I’ll promise to stop trolling.

            My period in China was divided into two parts. The first part being outside university and the second being in an university.

            I arrived Shanghai with just one phone number which I had obtained from an ad on the internet of rooms to rent. Luckily I got the room and paid for 2200 RMB for a crowded room in your average red roof-apartment in central Shanghai. Quite average I would say in Shanghai.

            Went to study Chinese everyday for six hours at one of the many language centers. (Miracle Mandarin)

            I needed one hour to get to the school. I explored every area of Shanghai and ate at every levels from your street food in the migrant areas to the luxury restaurants in the Super brand mall with a view facing the bund. I probably ate gutter oil a couple of times.

            So I would say that my life wasn’t so different if I would have worked. The difference being that I would have maybe worked more than 8 hours a day. And of course work is much more harder than studying Chinese.

            But the overall living standards, like food, environment, housing etc. was quite ok I think. I got everything I wanted.

            Yes some things were less good being the environment for example.

            But when traveling around in China I can’t stop to get impressed of the new roads. subways, high speed rails.
            Based on hardware China is quite developed.

            I’ve read somewhere somebody said that “China has a infrastructure of a developed but wages of a developing country” I kinda agree on this.

            One thing I noticed was that local Shanghainese are rich, as rich or richer than people in developed countries.

            The poor people are almost everybody migrant workers.

            During spring festival when most of the migrants went home Shanghai felt very developed, no poor people on the streets, just some couple of cars here and there just like in the west.

            I like to be were the action is, I would say that right now and in the coming 10 years China is and going to be the most interesting place on earth. Things happening all the time, that’s what I like.

            Since my girlfriend and maybe soon to be wife is Chinese she don’t really mind living in China since she will then be closer to her relatives. She lacks real university education and it’s going to be hard for her to find any job in Sweden anyways.

            There are bunch of international schools in every big Chinese city so that wont be a problem.

          • Germandude

            Ok, so you compare Shanghai to Sweden. Go 50 km west from Shanghai and see what most China looks like in the sense of development.
            Don’t assume that international schools are cheap. Live here for a while and you see the bad things. Air pollution index for the last couple of days: “HAZARDOUS”.

            Good luck on your endeavours.

          • Stefan Xu

            I know that inland China is less developed, but it’s the fastest growing part of China, just look at Chongqing. It’s catching up. Shanghai was also once there too, Shanghai is much more developed now than it was 5 years ago.

            Is air pollution really that big of a deal? I mean there are bunch of kids in Shanghai both Chinese and foreign, the kids doesn’t seem affected about it. Chinese themselves grew up in that environment and they seem to survive.

          • Germandude

            Stefan, Chongqing is supposed to be the “Shanghai of the west”(of China). So you can imagine how much money is floating into that city.
            I am talking about cities like Taicang, Suzhou, both very close to Shanghai but decades behind in development. Then check other provinces, e.g. Nanchang and you see even further need to develop. Shanghai is not representative for China. Neither is Beijing, or Chongqing.
            Check the Tier 2 and Tier 3 cities and compare those with what you know about Sweden to understand why China will need more than your suggested 10-20 years of development to come even close to European standard.

            Yes, air pollution is a big deal. Life expectancy in Beijing is 6(!) years lower than the country-standard because of air pollution.
            Shanghai has many days a year where the air quality is hazardous. Many families with kids (foreign) are leaving the country because of this.
            Personally, I feel that my breathing is getting worse because of the pollution. You can especially notice it when coming back to Europe after having stayed in China for a year. You breath fresh air in Europe and you actually feel you just smoked 2 packs of cigarettes. It takes me some time to get used to the fresh air in Europe again.
            When you arrive in Shanghai/Beijing, wash a white shirt and let it dry outside. You will appreciate a brown shirt afterwards because of the pollution. And that shit is going through your lungs.
            Eat the food of street vendors for a long time and you will notice bad health effects.
            When I arrived here, I went out eating a lot until I gained a lot of weight and simply felt unhealthy. I am now cooking most of the time by myself. Can’t guarantee a much better food quality, but at least I know I use fresh oil and a clean kitchen.

          • Stefan Xu

            Look at this map and SH actually is poorer than many cities. On the map Suzhou and Taicang are almost developed on par with TW.
            What do you think? I’m not trying to argue, I’m just interested in other opinions. That will maybe enlighten me.

            Just click on the link to enlarge it.

            GDP per capita nominal

            http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9906/u1yj.png

          • Germandude

            Your link is blocked and I don’t have a proxy server at the moment…

            For each Lamborghini/BMW 7 etc, you find 100 people on bikes and another 100 on scooters.
            There are many areas in Shanghai (like French Concession, Xujiahui) that are on par as New York City/London etc. Then again, there are many areas of Shanghai (like Qingpu, Songjiang) that are 50 years behind in development. Old, fragile structures. Dirty and rotten.
            Not to mention the good looking parts of Shanghai often still have poorest quality in construction. As an example, double-glassed windows in apartments are super-rare.
            Earn your own money here and live here for some time and you will notice one thing: “Quality has its price”. Nowhere is this sentence more true than in China.

          • Stefan Xu
          • Germandude

            Yes, works, but I don’t understand what you want me to comment on.

            Let’s make a simple example here. You mentioned that in Shanghai, you saw so many BMWs, more than in Europe.
            Please note that for each BMW you see, you probably see 500 people that don’t have more than a scooter.
            If you are in downtown Shanghai, you could get the impression “Wow, so many rich”. 10 km away from downtown, you get a completely different impression “Wow, so many poor”.
            It’s not rocket science that a lot of wealthy people purchase brand new cars to express their status. People want to differentiate themselves from the average worker.
            In Europe, many people do not purchase brand new cars anymore, simply because of too high depreciation (buy a car, leave the parking lot of the seller and experience a 20% value drop on the vehicle u just purchased). People are also willing to spend more money on travelling abroad. Besides, the average European doesn’t feel the need to purchase a car “out of his league”, to not be recognized as an average worker. At least not nearly as much as in China.
            Buying face through branded cars, handbags etc. is very important to the Chinese. “See? I am successfull”.

            I remember coming here first time 10 years ago and being impressed by Shanghai and how modern it is. I was here for a week vacation and saw the tourist sites. Now I am living here for almost 9 years and the longer I say, the more details I recognize. I think it’s fair to say that many sights you have in Shanghai (and China as a whole, I have travelled a lot here) are like Hollywood veneers: The front looks perfect, but don’t dare to look behind the scene.

          • Zappa Frank

            i totally agree with germandue. Just two steps out of nanjing road (we suppose the center more or less of shanghai), really two step along zhejiang road.. and you’ll see something like picions on the balcony and other stuff that are not prensent in europe even in countryside anymore… you’ll see buildings that are simply not levable and restaurants that would be closed at first inspection.. and this just few steps out of the main road od shanghai.. You’ll notice that in china many buy a car that is more expansive than their home.. most wear imitation of western clothes

          • Stefan Xu

            “I remember coming here first time 10 years ago and being impressed by Shanghai and how modern it is.”

            This was exactly my experience in China. But right now I’m very confused after reading all the bad stuff. You got some really good points. So you’re saying China and even Shanghai is quite backwards compared to developed countries?

          • Stefan Xu

            BTW, Traveling from Stockholm to London, Paris, NYC felt stepping down one step in living standards. Although they are developed it was a bit of a shocker going there, it just felt less developed. High inequality, pollution, water that tastes chlorine, overall more dirtier. Housing quality not up to the standards compared to Sweden. Slow internet. Chaotic traffic. More dangerous during the night.
            I have felt like this for almost every European country I’ve been to. I get these “developing country vibes” compared to Sweden.
            I mean really, I’m serious. Is this a surprise to you?

          • Germandude

            Then live in Shanghai and notice that NYC, London and Paris have higher housing, better food and the same inequality standards. On a even higher average than Shanghai.
            Oh, and internet sucks here beyond any reason.

            Your ideas/impressions are not surprising me at all. In the years I have spent here, I have seen numerous people arriving with colored glasses. Everything is so new, cool and exciting. Usually, the first 6-12 months are decisive if you can make it here or not. Most people that make it are successfull because of an interesting job, not the awesome life quality that simply is a hallucination.

          • Stefan Xu

            Did you even read my post?

            Nothing to do with Chnina or SH. Since you compare the best areas of SH to London and New York, I compared London and New York to Sweden.

            “BTW, Traveling from Stockholm to London, Paris, NYC felt stepping down one step in living standards. Although they are developed it was a bit of a shocker going there, it just felt less developed compared to Sweden. High inequality, pollution, water that tastes chlorine, overall more dirtier. Housing quality not up to the standards compared to Sweden. Slow internet. Chaotic traffic. More dangerous during the night.I have felt like this for almost every European country I’ve been to. I get these “developing country vibes” compared to Sweden.

            I mean really, I’m serious. Is this a surprise to you?”

          • Zappa Frank

            stefan, living standards in northen europe are the higer in the world..

          • My_honourable_lord

            Stefen, not too long ago, some teenager in America stole something from his cousin. The teenagers father, made him stand on the main street, with a huge sign hanging from his neck which read ‘I AM A THIEF, I STOLE FROM MY FAMILY’

            This was a man who LOVED his son. Imagine a chinese father trying to discipline his son….

          • TheSOP

            @haysoosnegro:disqus ^look above, as I was saying. That makes two on this thread alone Stefan and Linnette.

          • Tiny Tim

            Right. There should be a 10 year grace period on ANY citizen application, whereas the individual can be reviewed viable as citizen of your country, by the immigration department.

            1) All political affliations to your mother country counter-productive to your new country WOULD BE a violation and an automatic denial of your application.

            2) All money of the applicate applying must be disclosed, failure to disclose will also be an automatic rejection in the application.

            3) Illegal solicitation with any external political organizations, other than that are sanctioned in your new country will be deemed as a violation of your application.

            4) All dual-citizen applicants must CHOOSE which country they are allied to and must renounce their affiliations to your mother country.

            5) NO foreign national can purchase or transfer ownership of any property without proper citizenship and must meet governmental application.

            6) All properties will be forfeited and must be liquidated.

          • linette lee

            You sound like those old time communist…hahahahaha….lol Are you sure you don’t work for those old time communist party? Is China really communism right now? China seems to developed into its own class.

          • Tiny Tim

            Actually, I’m your worst nightmare…

          • Repatriated

            Class s/b corruption?

          • linette lee

            USA is extremely tight on immigration. Probably one of the tightest. They are extremely selective on their immigrants. You don’t need to worry. They only want to import those who brings $$$$ into USA. Also USA wants those who have potential high skills immigrants. Those high skill immigrants working class with high income pay high taxes supporting the whole USA economy. The upper middle class in USA support the whole USA economy. My high tax $$$$$ is paying USA so they can fund their defense agaisnt China. People like you should thank people like me for your freedom against China economy power.

            And you are trying to limit freedom of speech and expression. I will tell you many Americans don’t support USA foreign policy. Even many of their own USA soldiers don’t support. They said it themselves and I know many. Trying to tell the citizens of USA they should support USA foreign gov’t policy that they find unreasonable. Are you a tyrant?

          • Tiny Tim

            And you think everyone is welcoming you now in their country? It’s because you violated their rights with your political baggage you brought with you to their country. We are sick and tired hearing of it. It has nothing to do with your contibutions to the country.

          • My_honourable_lord

            ‘I will tell you many Americans don’t support USA foreign policy. Even many of their own USA soldiers don’t support. They said it themselves and I know many. Trying to tell the citizens of USA they should support USA foreign gov’t policy that they find unreasonable. Are you a tyrant?’

            Now imagine a chinese soldier doing all the things you have mentioned. You love shooting yourself in the foot.

          • wes707

            One can surmise they’re Chinese American because of their prefect English. How many Chinese international students can write at a native level?

          • Alex Dương

            Um, the comments that tend to unabashedly support the PRC are obviously written with imperfect English. Meanwhile, I’ve seen plenty of real Chinese Americans get accused of being fifty centers because they dare to ask to that they not be accused of having sympathies for a foreign country.

          • wes707

            Really, ever read The Economist comments? There are at least 50 regular commenters who write at a native level and are unabashedly in support of the PRC. Same with Global Times, Bloomberg, CNN, etc. Some are Wumao and others are Han tribalists.
            http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21590930-chinas-new-air-defence-zone-suggests-worrying-new-approach-region-face/comments#comments
            http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21590926-what-chinas-new-air-defence-zone-over-disputed-islands-says-about-its-foreign-policy-crossing-line/comments?sort=3#sort-comments

          • Alex Dương

            I’ve read their comments. They’re obviously written at a non-native level, unless you want to tell me

            “I hope you learn some history in the Asia and the East Asia region!, You should learn first and then to give your comments!”

            “The author dose not know any past, present
            and future of this region. Japan installed the defend line in 1969, which is only 130 KM to Chins’s offshore.. Why China can not do this now? pls. tell me who US and Japan use the different measures to same issues?”

            “I thought China is the one being bullied if you look at the map. Japan has a huge ADIZ which extends under every its neighbor’s nose”

            are examples of “perfect English.”

          • wes707

            As I said, there is a difference between Wumao and Han tribalists with Western citizenship.

            “In the West, I believe books criticizing China are the only ones available about the country, apart from some cookbooks and travel guides. The West is willing to translate and publish only those books that are damning to China. Although they don’t see it like that, censorship in the West is much stronger than in China.

            When I go to any major Chinese bookstore in Beijing or Shanghai or anywhere else, I see thousands of books written by the people who are promoting political and economic systems that greatly differ from the Chinese system.

            Now go to the big mainstream bookstores in New York or Chicago or Paris or Sydney, and see with your own eyes how many books promoting the Communist system or Latin American socialism there are on the front rows. Zero!

            Therefore, Chinese people are much better informed about Western capitalism and the Western political system than Western readers are about China.

            There is one essential reason: For the first time in modern history, the Western dominance of the world is being seriously challenged. And the West is panicking. It is too accustomed to rule.

            China is not interested in dictating, but the very fact that the most populous nation on Earth is defending its right to choose its own course is maddening to a great number of Westerners.”
            ………………………………………………………………………………..

            “China has more freedom of speech, because in China, there are voices against the top 1%. In the “free” world, such voices are effectively manipulated and suppressed by the media owned by the top 1%.

            Think of this, after 2008 financial crisis, not a single politician or activist stood up. How is this possible in a democratic country?”

            …………………………………………………………………………………

            “The Third Plenum upholds China’s “socialism with Chinese characteristics” and “socialist market economy”. Those who could not understand or refuse to understand these two concepts would not understand the achievements of the Third Plenum. It also upholds the Deng Wisdom of “crossing the river by feeling for the stones” meaning there will not be any “Big Bang” economic reforms.

            Those who were hoping for hasty Gorbachev Reforms (meaning reforms that cause short-term pain and long-term maim) for the Chinese economy are terribly disappointed.

            The pledge to allow the market [forces] to play a ‘decisive role’ in the allocation of resources is consistent with a market economy. The socialist market economy is also a market economy. However, this does not mean that state plays no role in the economy. That would be the morphing of China’s socialist market economy into a capitalist market economy and China’s “socialism with Chinese characteristics” into capitalism as practised in the West where the top 1% could perpetually maximize profits at the expense of the rest of the people who would be struggling with escalating high costs of living. An invisible hand keeps stealing not only from their wallets and bank accounts, but also their earnings and savings.

            In the socialist market economy, the state plays not only a leading role in the development of the economy, but also in mitigating the capitalist excesses and chaos in the market. So it is capable of a high rate of economic growth with low inflation and creating millions of real jobs year after year.

            In 1978, China discarded soviet communism in favour of a socialist market economy. The brilliance of Deng Xiaoping is that, after studying the “miracle” economies of the East Asian tigers, he concluded that socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. He termed the economy in which socialist SOEs and capitalist enterprises function together as a socialist market economy. Unlike the capitalist enterprises, the focus of the socialist SOEs, within the country, is national development and not maximization of profits. Therefore, when capitalist market economists diagnose the socialist SOEs as “inefficient” because the socialist SOEs do not make as much profits as the capitalist enterprises, they miss the point.

            Shenzhen is an example of how the state with its socialist SOEs transformed a piece of almost empty land into a very successful economic story. The socialist SOEs created the infrastructure and other necessary conditions for the capitalist enterprises to blossom. And Deng could declare “to get rich is glorious” in his socialist market economy without contradiction as it is legitimate for the capitalists, within the law and without serious harm to society, to maximize profit, create employment and pay taxes so long as the government remains socialist.

            Reforms will be introduced gradually and carefully, guided by the Deng Wisdom “of crossing the river by feeling for the stones”. This Wisdom implies, if you cannot find the stones, then do not cross the river. China’s economy is not in the state of economic emergency unlike the economies in the West. Stability, especially financial stability, is of paramount important, without which it is impossible to implement any reform without risking disaster and social chaos. She will not be threatened or scared into economic self-castration like what had happened to Japan.

            Financial stability requires a ceiling on deposit and lending rates, a stable USD-CNY exchange rate (until China’s foreign trade and investments are primarily in RMB) and certain capital controls.

            Of course, China has many problems; some of them are serious and urgent. A major problem is whether China’s socialist market economy would morph into state capitalism like the tiger economies before her with her socialist SOEs turning into or becoming capitalist SOEs, focusing on maximizing profits from the people just like any other capitalist enterprise. And what to do with the existing capitalist SOEs owned by the local governments that are hurting the capitalist enterprises in China’s socialist market economy instead of supporting them.”

          • TheSOP

            I’ve noticed they dominate over at the Economist also.

        • TheSOP

          Hell there is one right here on this thread named Linnette.

          • nqk123

            Linnette is not American, She is very much Chinese, most likely an international student. 3rd & later generations of Chinese American are basically American. I might have doubt about 1st and 2nd generation

          • TheSOP

            Weiner said shes got a passport, I hope he is wrong

      • Stefan Xu

        Since I am Chinese then I should support PRC, Taiwan, and even Singapore since we are all Chinese. These are all part of Greater China. All Chinese all over the world unite.

        • Zappa Frank

          Than all whites according to your logic should support US too and fight? And we should push out of our country all Chinese ok? Ok all Chinese back to china than

          • Stefan Xu

            Whites with no connection with US aren’t Americans. USA is not a white country because it’s an immigrant country. America is multi-racial country. I didn’t write all Asians should support China, just the Chinese.

          • Zappa Frank

            Well you think Europeans would just stand looking? No way. And what you think will happen to Chinese abroad?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Well American whites more or less cousins of Europeans and Brits. So, fuck with America, and see what happens. Have you forgotten? Looks like you are pushing for a refreshing of memories.

        • TheSOP

          And as I said I absolute despise such a fascist mindset. I urge you to leave the West if you are there, and if you are American I’ll put it this way; GTFO.

  • The planet is like the size of a bowl of ramen, why can’t we all just get along?

    • Turbocomppro

      Because men like to show who’s got the smallest dick.

      • My_honourable_lord

        I would like to think they would compete over the biggest dick not the smallest. We all know the outcome of short dick competition.

    • Face.

  • nqk123

    this will pass. no one want a war

  • nondimwit

    China is so gay

    • Stefan Xu

      you are so gay

      • nondimwit

        Stefan Xu = 五毛党

        • Stefan Xu

          I am just trying to defend China and Chinese people from the hatred and criticism. On this site when I see a comments like these; “China is so gay” or “Chinese are uncivilized barbarians without morals and ethics” I get offended. Of course I must defend myself.

          • nondimwit

            Defending yourself is one thing, I don’t fault you for that. What I fault you for is defending one of the most evil and corrupt governments of all time.

          • Stefan Xu

            Yes the government is corrupt but so are most of the governments in the world. I don’t believe the government is so evil as how it is portrayed to be. They are at least making an effort developing the country and it’s not an easy task controlling a country as large as China.

          • Jobjed

            Question…. why are you bothering to converse with people who can do nothing but resort to personal insults and degrading remarks? It’s a waste of time, you do not need to justify yourself to them. If you feel offended by their remarks, just remember none of them can actually do anything to China; what they say is irrelevant.

          • TheSOP

            Jobjed’s advice from personal experience: “Just lock yourself in the closest and such your thumb murmuring, ‘the bad man cant get me here’.” Speaking of irrelevance, nice to see you “Jobjed”

          • Jobjed

            ^Case in point.

        • Alex Dương

          nondimwit = ネット右翼

          • TheSOP

            And you?

          • Alex Dương

            Same as you. (Setting aside ethnic origin, of course.)

        • TheSOP

          No he is just a brain-dead Han chauvinist. A Nazi with Chinese characteristics basically… that could be worse than a wumao.

          • nondimwit

            Right you are sir.

  • Hang Em Man

    China already has plenty of land. Then they started this thing about Taiwan and now they want more and more. America must stand up to these bullies.

    • Cauffiel

      India, Russia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, and arguably Xinjiang, Tibet, and Taiwan…. what does China NOT own?

      • My_honourable_lord

        London?

      • Chris Granzow XI

        You forgot Palo Alto and Vancouver.

    • Cauffiel

      I love the Baidu Maps homepage…. is there any other country that draws a dotted line around its maritime claims?

      I wonder what their explanation for owning nearly the entire coast of Vietnam and half of Malaysia must be?

      • TheSOP

        Look at Malaysia, you can’t even go swimming on a beach in Sarawak without entering into their rubbish 9 dash line map. Even the old European imperialists would blush at the outlandish claims of this map.

        • Chris Granzow XI

          In fact, the claim is so large that it encompasses the former colonies of 4 countries (spain, portugal, france, britain).

      • My_honourable_lord

        Explanation? They don’t need one. Single child syndrome. ‘Mommy I want it!’

        • Stefan Xu

          most Chinese born after 1978 were not subjected to the one child policy.

          • Zappa Frank

            You claim to be Chinese and don’t even know that one child policy was introduced in 1979?it is still present even more and more relaxed.

          • Stefan Xu

            ok, missed the date…big deal.

            Though many outside of China are under the impression that the one child policy applied to all Chinese citizens, this is not true. In fact, there was a number of exceptions, and the legislation applies to only about 35 percent of citizens, as it only applies to married, urban, ethnically Han couples. Ethnic minorities, those in rural areas, and parents without siblings themselves can all have more than one child without paying a fine, as can those who have a severely disabled child or one that dies. In some circumstances, exceptions are also made for those who lose their children to natural disasters.

            So most young Chinese have siblings.

          • My_honourable_lord

            ‘Most chinese’ nice try. Most are subjected to it. You got it the wrong way around.

          • Stefan Xu

            Though many outside of China are under the impression that the one child policy applied to all Chinese citizens, this is not true. In fact, there was a number of exceptions, and the legislation applies to only about 35% of the citizens, as it only applies to married, urban, ethnically Han couples. Ethnic minorities, those in rural areas, and parents without siblings themselves can all have more than one child without paying a fine, as can those who have a severely disabled child or one that dies. In some circumstances, exceptions are also made for those who lose their children to natural disasters.

    • Alex Dương

      Um, “this thing about Taiwan” goes back to 1949 when the Chinese Nationalists lost mainland China in the Chinese Civil War.

  • Teacher in China

    I was actually glad to see this happen. Someone needed to send a message of “no way” to China after their ridiculous claim. But I’m not sure China was ever really serious about it. Seems like it was just a way to pressure all the parties involved into taking the matter more seriously.

    The downside to both China’s initial action and the US’ response is that there is now another way that this island dispute could accidentally escalate into something serious should someone with an itchy trigger finger do the wrong thing at the wrong time. So now add “air” to “sea” for the ways war could erupt.

    I read a viewpoint on the BBC site that really stuck with me though – if Japan were to simply address the issues surrounding WWII, which ended more than 60 years ago (!), I think China would soften up quite a lot on all their issues with Japan. Just amazing to me that it will never happen.

    • TheSOP

      I disagree on the last part. If China were to capture the Senkakus today they would simply find a new casus belli, probably in the South China Sea where their claims are even more ridiculous and the Japanese arent even an issue. The root is in China’s imperialistic mindset. That will bring war to the region eventually unless the mind set is changed.

      • Teacher in China

        I really hope you’re wrong about that.

        • TheSOP

          Wish I was too, in that case I’d advocate a settlement whereby the islands become a nature preserve or some such. But the issues has never been the islands. Lets hope the US and our Asian allies have clear eyes about China’s intentions and motivations.

      • Cauffiel

        China’s claims are different than the Western age of imperialism that stretched into the mid 20th century. The British and other European countries spent centuries landing on new coastlines and saying, “This belongs to us now.”

        Chinese imperialism claims, “This was always ours. We just forgot to tell you earlier.”

        • TheSOP

          Wrong, its simply imperialism with Chinese characteristics. It goes like this; find some remote historical connection to China, or if that fails a little historical revisionism can work its magic, no matter how tedious and then play up that often fictitious or tenuous connection as a claim, often using the phrase “since ancient times”. In this way China can claim Siberia, parts of India, large chunks of Central Asia and Southeast Asia, hell they can even sat Zheng He’s visit to Africa means parts of that region have been Chinese since ancient times. There is no end to this nonsense and it is only a mask for an irridentist brand of Chinese imperialism. Don’t think for a moment that China isn’t an imperialist. Tibetans, Uyghers, Koreans, and Mongolians can all attest to Chinese colonialism and imperialism as they are fighting it now. Honestly I hope they win their battles.

          • Cauffiel

            I think what you and I said is the same thing.

          • Jobjed

            “Remote historical connection”? Uhh… I’m sorry, is the Qing Dynasty a “remote” connection to China? It’s barely one hundred years ago that it collapsed. Take a look at the Qing map and take a look at the map of the PRC + ROC today. The amount of land that China lost is huge, all within the span of 100 years. What you neglected to know (or just refused to say) is that every piece of land that the ROC and PRC are laying claim to today belonged to their preceding dynasties.

            The PRC, being a bit more pragmatic, has given up hope for the reclamation of significant portions of land taken by Russia, nor is it pursuing reunification with Mongolia. The ROC on the other hand, still uses the Qing Dynasty map as an indication of what is rightfully China’s.

            It’s funny that you try depicting Mongolians as resisting imperialists given that they were the most successful imperialists in all of history. The demonym; “Tibetan” occupies the same niche as “Sichuanese” or “Shanghainese”, its use doesn’t legitimise their separatism whatsoever. The term; “Uyghur” just denotes an ethnic group, same as “Han” or “Zhuang”, its use, like the use of “Tibetan”, does not lend any credence to their separatist movement. What the flying monkey does Koreans have anything to do with your alleged “Chinese colonialism”? I don’t see either Koreas being labelled vassal states to the PRC, do you?

          • Alex Dương

            Remember that Japan themselves claim that they were the first to exercise effective control over “Senkaku” in 1895. So the connection to China is not that remote at all; we are talking about a claim from the Qing Empire, not the Yuan (14th Century).

          • Tiny Tim

            Those islands were not even mentioned at that time. It was only mentioned when the PRC re-written the actual documents written by the ancient scholars. They are continuing to do so as we speak, erasing the true historical data. One of many lies from PRC.

          • Alex Dương

            Oh, I see you’ve bought the Japanese Government’s claim hook, line, and sinker. OK, Tim, riddle me this: Japan claims “Senkaku” under the principle of “terra nullius”; before 1895, no nation exercised control over the islands.

            But it is a fact that in 1885, the Governor of Okinawa petitioned Tokyo to annex the islands in question, and the Foreign Minister denied his request. The Governor repeated the request in 1890 and 1893, but he was again denied on both occasions.

            Hmm, if the islands were “terra nullius” in 1895, surely they were also “terra nullius” in 1885. Why didn’t the Foreign Minister just approve the request then?

            The answer is of course obvious: they belonged to the Qing Empire. If you’ve really bought the Japanese Government’s claim as thoroughly as I think you have, I can already guess your answer: whatever happened before 1895 is irrelevant because Tokyo says so. Great critical thinking!

          • TheSOP

            The Qing also colonized Mongolia and parts of India, are you going to use that to make claims in those countries also? Nobody, except the Chinese, gives two flying fucks (excuse my French) about the claims of the Qing, nor should they. The past is the past, get over it. Perhaps Korea should reclaim the borders of Goguryeo (bye bye Liaoning, Jilin), perhaps the Thais should claim the borders of Siam (bye bye Laos, parts of Cambodia and Malaysia). Stop this nonsense.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo

          • Alex Dương

            So “the past is the past” and you are for “the status quo.” I hope, then, that you will never again refer to Tibet as “colonized territory,” though something makes me think you’ll continue to say that.

            To answer your questions,

            1. The PRC relinquished all claims to Mongolia.

            2. If by “parts of India” you are referring to Arunachal Pradesh, remember when I told you that the ROC walked away from the negotiations at Simla in 1914? Those “parts of India” were within the ROC’s borders before 1914, and the ROC has never recognized the validity of the Simla Accord.

          • Tiny Tim

            And what external proof that do you have that actually hasn’t been from the Chinese archive to back up your claim?

          • Alex Dương

            http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Rights-Territorial-Sino-Japanese-Relations/dp/0824824938

            I know it’s too difficult to ask a netouyo to read an entire book in English, so I will be nice and point you to the relevant page:

            http://books.google.com/books?id=vDpEiKR2osoC&q=kaoru#v=snippet&q=kaoru&f=false

            Click the link for page 97 and read it. Then come back, be a good little netouyo, and tell me that it is irrelevant because Tokyo said so.

        • linette lee

          So true….

      • Alex Dương

        One thing Japan likes to say is that before 1978, China (both PRC and ROC) didn’t care about “Diaoyu.” But China has been in the Spratly Islands dispute since the 1930s, so if anything, China’s claims to the Spratlys are much less ridiculous. (Though I will say that if you bother to research the facts instead of just accepting the Japanese Government’s position as unbiased truth, China’s claim to “Diaoyu” is not ridiculous at all.)

        • linette lee

          To TheSOP he really doesn’t give a shxt about what’s right and what’s wrong. You and I should figure that by now after reading some of his 7000 words biased posts against China and everything that’s Chinese. He will even justify WWII invasion of China by Japan. No point to argue with someone so filled with so much hatred. Then he tells people he is a teacher. I pray for his students. Poor students being taught by someone so twisted. His only interest is to defeat China and kill as many Chinese as possible. He wants to make sure China is contained and will not rise to challenge USA superpower.

          http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/08/22/the-us-is-encircling-china-with-military-bases/

          • linette lee

            http://antiwar.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/empire-in-asia-e1377199333368.png

            USA is working hard to contain China. lol
            China wants to rise.

          • TheSOP

            Keep posting blatant lies and smears which you cant back up in any way. How did you ever make it into American academia? It is a real shame for my great nation to have immigrants of such a low moral and ethical nature as you. I hope you pack your bags and go where your allegiances obviously reside.

    • Butsu

      The last part there, that’s what the papers like to write in my country as well. Actually, it seems to be the standard introduction to the conflict, and to be honest, no, nothing would change. They’re completely unrelated.

    • Tiny Tim

      On a matter of safety to all you people living in China, best make arrangements for a quick exodus. Things are not going to looking too good for you all living there if the population decides to take out their fustrations on you and your family or the Chinese government decides to NOT let you leave.

  • TheSOP

    China’s thuggish behavior is becoming more unacceptable to the maintance of peace and stability of East Asia. In short the PRC is the major threat to peace and prosperity in the region. The Senkakus are just an excuse, not the root of the problem. The root of the problem lies in the Sino-Centric cultural-ethno-chauvinism that dominates mainland China’s thinking. They want to ressurrect an old archaic order that is not suitable for the modern world, one where China’s neighbors bow to its will and foreigners kowtow to the CCP in exchange for superficial access to China’s economic largess.

    If the Senkakus were to disappear tomorrow China would find a new casus belli (they are already lining up an attack on Japan’s sovereignty to Okinawa) in the East China Sea, the South China Sea or with India. These are the first line of Chinese imperialism and appeasement is the wrong solution; resolute and forceful opposition is essential. China is to the 21st century what Imperial Japan and Fascist Germany were to the 20th century; irridentist and revisionist states that seek to expand their territory to vindicate negative nationalism that triumphs when its neighbors suffer. This is the “Chinese Dream” under Xi and the CCP.

    Strongly support the US shifting more military assets into the Asia-Pacific theater. China is a threat to her neighbors and to the United States, and ironically to herself and her own people despite the large number of Chinese drones braying for blood on the internet it is they and their children who will suffer the most when China goes to far and invites retaliation. The US working with its Asian allies has the regions interests at heart. Strike down Chinese imperialism. Keep it in check until the inevitable implosion of the CCP when a more moderate China may emerge. The sooner the better.

    • TheSOP

      With that in mind the US should execute a counter move instead of playing catch up to the PRC; support our Filippino allies with materials and ships to build up solid bases on the reefs in the West Philippine Sea. Right now you have Philippine Marines camping out on a haphazard ship grounded on a reef. The US should give them the supplies and guidance to build up a strong military deterrent on all Philippine held reefs and make sure they have a coast guard capable of patrolling. Don’t make imperialism easy for the CCP and their PLA lackeys, make them pay if they decide to inhabit another PI held reef like the did at Mischief Reef etc. China wants to slowly gobble up these islands, throw some glass shards in its 饺子 and it will be careful about taking another bite!

      • Comebackkid13

        American supporters calling China imperialistic is the exact definition of the pot calling the kettle black. You have to got to see that.

        • hailexiao

          Just because the pot is calling the kettle black doesn’t mean that the kettle isn’t in fact black.

          • Comebackkid13

            Indeed, that is very true. However, we cannot make an argument for condemning China’s foreign policy by using America as diametric example of “good” or “justified” interventionist foreign policy.

          • TheSOP

            Exactly… I’ll criticize America where relevant and deserving. In this matter America is deserving of support.

  • Free Man

    Finally something interesting.

    These chinese comments demanding war remember me of a book I once read. It was the bio of some chinese dude, Yu Chien Kuan, who experienced end of civil war, Korea war, cultural revolution etc. and in the end fleeing from China. Anyway, he was a student during Korea war and told about the actions of his fellow students during that time. He said there was one guy who wrote a letter with his own blood about how eager he was to sacrifice his life for the country.

    The day before this student was drafted, he ran away and was never seen again.

    It is easy to talk about going to war. But when the bombs start falling and the bullets start buzzing around your ears, you might change your opinion quite fast.

    I don’t know if or when a war will start. But one thing I know for sure. As soon as it starts, most of the people calling for blood right now will change their opinion and try to run away, too. Any chinese saying the opposite should show some action before talking.

    • My_honourable_lord

      Very sobering comment. Lets hope war doesn’t break out. I fear it won’t be bullets whizzing around. Electro magnetic bombs would sizzle china’s electronics. Then America’s jets will bomb at will, unchallenged. Then regime change. China should exercise caution. Any change must be conducted by its own people. But the party doesn’t want that. They would rather take their country to war and get blown to smithereens rather than allowing change to take place with fair elections. This weeks declaration has left china looking very, very silly.

      • Tiny Tim

        If this scenario happens, China WILL be chop up into smaller pieces and distributed amongst ALL the countries that they have pissed off. Don’t be too surprised if Russia decides to invade China as well…

      • Alex Dương

        Wow, it’s that easy to attack China? Gee, why’d we bother with Iraq at all, then?

        • My_honourable_lord

          No one is talking about attacking china. It’s china who is talking about attacking others. So there will be a reaction. And stop saying ‘we’ as though you are american btw, i find it irritating. Now, china needs to deal with problems at home and stop trying to mess around with japan. Get over it. Japan has strong allies who WILL keep their promises on mutual alliances. Now, collect your 50 cents and go buy a lollipop. Don’t delve into matters for grownups.

          • Alex Dương

            Buddy, please – it’s obvious that your English is non-native, and calling me a fifty center is all I need to know that you’ve lost the argument. Were you the one who downvoted TheSOP when he said Japan should back off Dokdo? Typical netouyo – they know that the United States doesn’t support right-wing Japanese nationalism, so they pretend to be Americans.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Welcome back Robert. Look around carefully son. It was most probably you who down voted SOP that’s why you raised the issue in the first instance. You have realised that we’ve been around for some time and it kind of bothers you. You aren’t fooling anyone.

            You gave yourself away with the ‘its obvious your english is non-native’ comment. Go on. Run along and get your lollipop.

          • Alex Dương

            You know that Jedi mind tricks don’t actually work, right? (And also that you can see who upvotes comments, and you can’t both upvote and downvote the same comment?) It is obvious that Eigo is not your native language, netouyo.

          • My_honourable_lord

            England. You? Qingdao?

          • Alex Dương

            I said Eigo, not Eikoku.

          • TheSOP

            うるさいばかやろ!

          • Alex Dương

            You should tell that to the netouyo.

    • linette lee

      Agree, the Chinese and USA folks that’s calling out for war don’t think about it is the military men women lives in danger. It is easy for the USA politicians to send troops overseas to fight in the war zones just like those Chinese netizens talk bxllshit telling China should go to war. They are not the ones in front line. And then you have all these small countries netizens wishing USA, China, and Japan..three big nations to go to war. Let them beat each other up and more power for small island countries. Those small countries around China think they actually benefit if China is in economy ruined. They think they can be more respected by the western countries. lol.

      • Free Man

        They think they can be more respected by the western countries …

        Isn’t exactly this the reason why some chinese netizens call for war? To be more respected by the west?

      • TheSOP

        ASEAN has 700 million people, you think they want to be dominated by China? Hell no, they want their own freedom. You think this is all about the West? What kind of closed mindset is that? You need to get out of China and the US and into other Asian counties so you stop making these unfounded assumptions about their motivations. See China and the threat it present through their eyes instead of being a Sino-chauvinist.

  • Butsu

    Everyone gets so uppity because the US did this. Shortly after Japan and South Korea flew their own military planes right through as well. So with this bullshit move they managed to anger Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, yesterday news hit that they would move the big “museum” carrier near the islands which in fact went straight through Phillipine waters, making the Phillipine gov. angry. This isn’t so much about who has the right to the islands, you can’t just throw up an zone like this because it suits your needs. At least they backed down from forcing normal flights’ need to contact the Chinese defense.

    What I find even more hilarious is that people find this sort of beheviour justifed, because of the sheer fact that the US did something. A tendency I could see in my own country, everyone was screaming “OH THE US WARMACHINE IS ON THE MARCH AGAIN, CHINA IS RIGHT IN THIS!”. Withouth actually understanding the bigger picture,

  • Brian_Dell

    Japan is obviously content with the status quo But if China isn’t, how does this end? You cannot escalate things forever, sooner or later you’ll reach ignition temperature. Someone would have to climb down first to avoid that. But if Beijing ends up having to climb down then why make it that much further to climb down in the future by climbing up now? I don’t get it. How is Japan going to be intimidated into just ceding the territory when the U.S. says they are providing a military guarantee it won’t be taken from Japan by force?

    • ex-expat

      Yeah I really don’t understand their logic, though I rarely do. It seems they have painted themselves into a corner.

      • My_honourable_lord

        Well, if their driving skills are anything to go by, there is no cause for concern.

    • Jobjed

      Incorrect. China was satisfied with the pre-2010 status quo and never mentioned it on the international stage. It wasn’t until the Japanese arrested the Chinese fishermen and then nationalised the three islands that the Chinese began protests. The Japanese had instigated two events which had changed the status quo and thus the Chinese responded, as did the Taiwanese.

      As for your assertion that the US is willing to go to war with China for Japan over a rock, I am very doubtful. China and the US are both nuclear powers, a war between them would likely escalate into WW3, I seriously doubt the US would be pitting her own military against China’s. I would, however, believe that the US would provide considerable material aid to Japan in the event of a war. Given the huge disparity in military might between China and Japan, the aid that the US is willing to provide Japan probably will not be enough.

      Most importantly, the US never said it will provide military assistance for Japan in a war with China. Their statements have always been somewhat vague; mostly just condemning China for this and that and urging peace and calm, which is precious coming from a country with military bases littered across the globe. If Japan fires the first shot, as it has shown willingness to do since the crisis began in 2010, then the US will not step in to aid Japan due to their instigation of initial hostilities.

      • Zappa Frank

        I doubt any war is going to happen, but in case is unthinkable us would not support japan, and likely even NATO could eventually follow…

        • My_honourable_lord

          NATO would have to.

      • Tiny Tim

        Your total logic and reasoning is flawed. If the Japanese government delibrately staged this, what benefit was it to them if the 2 prime ministers eventually resigned and the other japanese party taking over? The Chinese is interested in those islands because of its strategic location. You can be damn sure they WILL build a naval base there. The two points from Taiwan and the Senkaku Islands are key points for the Chinese navy…The Americans WILL not let them take these islands.

        • linette lee

          I seriously doubt USA will involve their troops to go into war with China. The war between China and USA will be WWIII. And once they are in war very unlikely they will be friendly to each other ever again. USA will most likely provide military equipments and let the Japanese fight their own war. Sounds like many bloggers here like you and TheSOP want to flame USA and China into WWIII. It will surely damage the economy of both nations especially China because it is still developing. TheSOP thinks by damaging China economy that will benefit countries like Philippine and south east Asia.
          If you read other site, some Americans want the defeat China so they don’t have to repay the trillion dollars loan. lol

    • Tiny Tim

      Your observations are very correct, but I feel the underlying theme is China is trying to revive the nationalistic hatred in and outside China to unite all Chinese to one common enemy Japan and U.S. As you witnessed the staged riots in China and the Chinese fisherman incident with the Japanese Coast Guard by the government achieved this goal. It united Nationalists and the Communists under one banner. This staged incident would solve many of the internal problems as well unification of all Chinese on this matter. They allowed many of these so-called new citizens immigrate to our countries, you wonder why so easily. It is part of the grand plan…waiting for this incident to happen…even if many Chinese needlessly die in this conflict at sea, as sacrificial lambs. They want this to be their Alamo in history.

    • Alex Dương

      Japan has to play hardball on this dispute because “Senkaku” is the only set of disputed islands that they control. If they cede “Senkaku,” then they are also effectively withdrawing their claims to “Takeshima” (Dokdo) and the Kurils.

      • TheSOP

        I think Japan would be smart to withdraw its Dokdo claims. Korea is not Japan’s adversary unless Japan makes it one, which unfortunately the current government is doing. The US needs to put pressure on Japan to curb its right wing tendencies. Ishihara and his ilk are every bit the enemy to the US that they are to China. Japan needs good will in the region which it has outside of Korea and China. China wants this confrontation so it is in Japan’s best interests to reduce its conflicts elsewhere and focus on the long term belligerent. Japan will get a lot of positive press if it drops Dokdo on the precedent that it is the status quo and the status quo trumps revisionism, a position diametrically opposed to Chinese revisionism and irridentism.

        Japan has its own demons it needs to deal with, and it needs to be much more forthright about its history. If it does that it will assume a position of power and legitimacy in Asia where it can even lecture China on its inability to face up to its own history. But now there is a toxicity within Japanese society also, nowhere near what we see in China, but disturbing nontheless.
        (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/new-enmity-between-japan-and-korea-plays-out-in-tokyos-koreatown/2013/11/28/974c91cc-528b-11e3-9ee6-2580086d8254_story_1.html)

        • Alex Dương

          I commend you for your open-mindedness. In my experience, I’ve found that many people who say “Senkaku is Japanese!” also say “Takeshima is Japanese!” because of cognitive dissonance: if they acknowledge that Japan could be wrong over “Takeshima,” then Japan could also be wrong over “Senkaku.” So they just say Japan is right in both cases.

          • TheSOP

            Well its easier for me as a non-Japanese to view the situation in a non-emotional manner. But I have spent a fair amount of time in Japan and I know the people are by and large pacific in their mindset. I never saw the out and out hatred that I’ve witnessed frequently across China, in fact last time I was there Chinese tourists were loudly chatting in public unafraid for their safety in direct opposition to the reality that Japanese face in China today where advertising their nationality invites assault.

            But the key is maintaining the status quo, East Asia is developing rapidly, peoples lives are generally improving. Are all land and border issues perfect? No, but using coercion to change the status quo will destroy this region. So many countries from Thailand and Indonesia, to China and Korea have territorial issues that if coercion becomes the norm (and China is setting that norm) the region will descend into chaos. I hope East Asians can work with the US to counter this threat which is primarily emanating from China. Japan is the most advanced liberal democracy in the region, its actions have the ability to help establish norms of behavior. They need to harness that power and act as a responsible example for the rest of the region and as an alternative to Chinese imperialistic revisionism.

    • mr.wiener

      Hi Brian, you ‘ol Sasscatoonian you. How’ve you been mate? Long time no see.

  • My_honourable_lord

    One of the comments above suggests shooting down american bombers. Good luck with that.

    • Jobjed

      B52s are slow, cumbersome and very visible on radar; shooting them down will be easy. That particular netizen who called for the shooting down of the B52s obviously has no idea what an ADIZ is. An ADIZ is not sovereign airspace, it’s just a zone where you declare your intentions to potentially dispatch fighter jets to intercept unknown aircraft.

      • My_honourable_lord

        As I said, good luck with the shooting down B-52’s. Forget the shooting down. If china so much as locks on a US aircraft, the response will be swift and decisive.

        • Jobjed

          Oh, please enlighten me on what “swift and decisive” response the US military will take against China.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Use your imagination.

          • Jobjed

            I can imagine both the US and China turning into radioactive wastelands, courtesy of their nuclear stockpiles. Somehow, I can’t imagine any conventional war where the US would be able to overwhelm Chinese coastal defences.

          • My_honourable_lord

            You reckon china can nuke American soil? Stop reading comics and smell the coffee.

          • Jobjed

            You didn’t know China has a nuclear stockpile?

          • My_honourable_lord

            How do you propose to deliver it to American soil?

          • Jobjed

            DF-5, DF-31, DF-41 and its associated variants. FFS, do you not know how to use Google to search “Chinese ICBM”??

          • linette lee

            THeSOP wants Chinese blood. lol.

          • TheSOP

            Thats a lie, it is what you want to believe. I want China to stand down and quit being a belligerent threat to the region, endangering Asia, the United States, and itself with its arrogant and imperialistic actions. China is the problem and China is the country that needs to correct its behavior. The US will give China that incentive, hopefully without have to resort to actual blows. I have served and I have friends who continue to serve in the region, this isnt some academic game to me as it seems to be to you. Grow up.

          • linette lee

            United States…. with its arrogant and imperialistic actions…

            Are you talking about USA?
            I don’t see that much difference between China and USA on foreign policy. USA coats it with more sugar. China is just too direct and don’t know how to sugarcoat it. Both need to back down a bit and behave. Peace is more important. Not war.

          • TheSOP

            USA does not claim the territories of other states based on revisionist and irridentist history, China does. This is a huge difference. America has made many, many mistakes within the last decade alone, primarily Iraq, but it has not been a territorial expansionist in over a century (China has been for 1000s of years up until today). China IS a territorial imperialist, a much more insidious threat to the long term peace and security of East Asia. East Asians can see for themselves that America makes no claims to their lands or seas while China usurps and colonizes the land of the Tibetans and others and is now moving to make claims on lands and seas far from the Chinese mainland based solely on revisionist and flimsy historical claims that don’t stand up to scrutiny or common sense. In fact the Chinese know this and wont take their claims to the UN precisely because their case is so weak.

            You are a sympathizer and apologist for a totalitarian expansionist-imperialist state, yet you have the gall grab onto a US passport. The hypocrisy in your behavior is amazing. Again I don’t consider you a compatriot of mine.

          • Alex Dương

            You call the PRC a “totalitarian expansionist-imperialist state.” But surely you know that the ROC also claimed Tibet and Xinjiang, and in fact, it was the ROC that promulgated the so-called “nine dashed line” in the 1930s, not the PRC (which wasn’t founded yet).

          • TheSOP

            The ROC is in no position to carry out such a project in fact they have not provoked the situation in the SCS despite holding one of the largest islands. It is the PRC which is ramming the boats of Filippino and Vietnamese fishermen.

            If the ROC were to drop its claims such action would be viewed by the mainland as an attempt at succession, the issue and the ridiculousness of the original ROC claims have been discussed inside and outside Taiwan before. I don’t see that as validating the imperialistic behavior of the PRC in anyway. I have seen this argument made before and I fail to see the point in it.

          • Alex Dương

            The point is that it’s pretty easy to criticize the PRC; it’s a bit harder to criticize the ROC because the ROC doesn’t have the PRC’s totalitarian / Communist baggage. Drop that, and then we have to start talking about facts, and if we talk about facts, the picture becomes much more complicated than “China is an expansionist imperialist aggressor!”

            Regarding Tibet, in terms of the facts, the ROC never dropped its claim to Tibet. When the British proposed that Tibet was a Chinese vassal state at Simla in 1914, the Chinese left the negotiations.

            And in 1949, as the KMT realized it had lost mainland China, it tried to get the new 10th Panchen Lama to come with them to Taiwan. Why would they have done that if they didn’t believe in the ROC’s claim to Tibet?

          • TheSOP

            Its easy to criticize behavior, you are raising the issue of criticizing hypothetical behavior. The ROC hasn’t carried out such a project, again I fail to see the point in postulating and judging a situation that doesn’t exist. I am analyzing and criticizing a situation that does exist and behavior and conduct of the PRC which is having real not hypothetical impacts on East Asia’s security. The KMT of 1949 is not the KMT of 2013, neither is the ROC, but again I am not interested in theorizing about what they might have done because it is not a productive exercise, history is done and written. Am I interested as to what they may do in the future and what a democratic China might do in the future? Yes.

          • Alex Dương

            All due respect, you are proving my point: you freely criticize the PRC; but you are trying very hard not to make any negative remarks on the ROC. As I said, I expect this: the ROC doesn’t have the PRC’s Communist baggage.

            I am not talking about what “might have been done.” I am talking about what was done, and I will repeat what was done:

            1. The ROC in 1914 walked away from negotiations at Simla with the U.K. when the British proposed that Tibet was a Chinese vassal state.

            2. The KMT in 1949 tried to get the new 10th Panchen Lama to come with them to Taiwan. The 10th Panchen Lama declined.

            There are many other facts regarding the ROC’s claim to Tibet, but these two are enough to clearly show that based on “what was done,” the ROC never withdrew its claim to Tibet and in fact actively pushed for it.

            So again, what’s the point? A criticism of Chinese claims to Tibet is an implicit criticism of the ROC. Are you willing to do that?

          • TheSOP

            The day the ROC invades Mongilia, kills Philippine fishermen and claims all the reefs in the SCS I will be inclined to reexamine the validity of what you are talking about. Again I look to actions to make judgement. The PRC is acting, its real behavior is judgable, thus relevant to analysis.

            Now I will agree with you in one area and that is the poisonous nature of Sino-centrism and Sino-chauvinism which I think you are eluding to. Sino-Imperialism existed long before the CCP ever did and the legacy of Sino-centrism is worthy of criticism for the behaviors and ideology it has helped to underwrite. That may well be an issue in any future democratic China and is worth examining.

          • Stefan Xu

            China’s just retaking what they lost when Qing fell.

          • TheSOP

            The Qing were an imperialist dynasty, is China entitled to imperialist and colonialist territorial claims? The Europeans recognized that such a mind set is wrong. Japan (with some convincing) came to see the wrongs of such an approach. So will China.

          • Tiny Tim

            Its funny how they pick the largest dynasty to back their claim, not the first one. Those lands did not belong to the Chinese at that time.

          • TheSOP

            Exactly, China has been an imperialist for millennia. It imperialism differed from Western imperialism in that it was continental in nature instead of sea based. But it was blatant expansionism and colonialism nonetheless. Tibet and Xinjiang among other “provinces” are nothing more than colonized territory of other nations.

          • Alex Dương

            So, are you suggesting that 2013 U.S. borders revert to those of 1783?

          • TheSOP

            No as I’ve pointed out I am an advocate of the status quo. There is no reason to descend into a “you get out of Tibet”, “no you get out of America” nonsense where this conversation goes everytime. America is a settled country, its political borders are set, there is no popular calls for the independence of California, yet Tibet and Xinjiang are rocked by anti-colonial protests. China needs to correct its treatment of all its people but especially it colonial subjects. Tibet might actually be happy to be a part of the PRC if there werent soldiers in temples and on every street corner. Comparing China with America is ridiculous on so many levels.

            But the point is China has already colonized huge tracts of non-Chinese territory. To be making further revisionist claims in this century should be met with firm resolve and military pressure to dissuade them from continuing Chinese imperialism.

          • Alex Dương

            You deride Chinese claims to Tibet and Xinjiang as “colonizing territory of other nations.” Yet, when it comes to our borders, you say you’re for the status quo. That’s not very consistent. If you chafe at the thought of calling California “colonized territory,” then don’t do it for Tibet.

          • TheSOP

            I am for the status quo, but comparing California to Tibet is completely preposterous and you know it. If I have to explain why then I think you are having some real issues grasping reality. In fact I’m going to coffee…

          • Alex Dương

            It’s not completely preposterous at all, unless you want to tell me that the Mexican-American War had a legitimate casus belli.

          • TheSOP

            You can’t see the difference between California today and Tibet today? Hidden Harmonies is reasonable? Well you’ve made it quite clear where you stand. Quite wasting my time and just admit you are an ideologically driven 粪青, actually don’t bother, I dont need confirmation, I already found it.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/30/opinion/desperation-in-tibet.html?hp&rref=opinion/international

          • Alex Dương

            Yes, I’ve made it very clear, as have you: you’re a complete hypocrite, and you don’t like it when I call you out on your hypocrisy. In fairness, nobody likes that, but you are not a fair person. You’re more reasonable than most who post here, but ultimately, you have one set of rules for the U.S. and a different set of rules for China.

            Go ahead and say whatever you want about me. Coming from you, it means nothing. The joke of the weekend for me was knowing that there are native Taiwanese that are “very pro-PRC”!

          • TheSOP

            Just so I have this right; you see no difference between California 2013 and TIbet 2013?

          • Alex Dương

            There’s one huge difference: the colonization process ended a long time ago for California; non-Hispanic whites are the largest group in the state. By contrast, Tibet is almost 93% ethnic Tibetan.

            So really, what you’re saying is that you’re fine with “status quo” borders based on former expansionism / colonialism / imperialism / etc. so long as there’s assimilation. But again, I have a feeling that you’re not consistent here as you strike me as the type of person that would call any attempt by China to increase the Han percentage in Tibet “cultural genocide.”

          • David

            I don’t think you really understood the Mexican American war, it was not simply about Texas (although that was a big reason also). Many U.S. citizens who moved to Mexico had legitimate griped against the Mexican government (including land being confiscated without legal recourse). There were attempts to settle these problems BEFORE the war was started but the Mexican government (only 12 years old at the time) had no desire to be reasonable.

          • Guest23

            Don’t forget about that Napoleon-admirer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%B3pez_de_Santa_Anna it was pretty complicated with the issue of land ownership and slavery also factors.

          • Alex Dương

            It’s unclear to me that mistreatment of expatriates is a legitimate cause for war.

          • David

            Well legitimate is a subjective condition, in addition, it was a long time ago and what was considered legitimate then is often something we do not consider today. As I said there were many causes, some considered legitimate at the time and others not so much (like the desire to add more land to the new country). By many standards the land basically belonged to whoever could take it and keep it. The Mexican government did it before us, the Spanish before that, many many Native American tribes did it before that (yea, they did not spend all their time smoking peace pipes they were just as blood thirsty and greedy as the white man and over the thousands of years the land changed hands many times).

          • Alex Dương

            I agree with everything you said. To be clear, I am not for returning California to Mexico, and I don’t call California “colonized territory.” But for the same reasons, I don’t call Tibet “colonized territory” either.

          • David

            Fair enough. After all it is simply our opinions, the government will do what it wants and the people who live there and support it will do what they want. BTW I have never actually been to Tibet but I have a trip there planned for the summer break. I do not plan on doing any protesting (I am not going all that way to get kicked out) just going to enjoy the beauty of the area.

          • Alex Dương

            Wow, that is some serious ignorance. The “largest dynasty” also happened to be the last dynasty.

          • Tiny Tim

            Your selective analogy on the subject is commendable at the best of times. Your failure to recognise the sovereignty of which their territory was stolen from. Leaving out the key points to back your argument, namely the countries they actually belong to…I know you suffer from the Stockholm syndrome, by the comments you post.

          • Alex Dương

            You made a valiant attempt, but after reading your first full paragraph, it’s become incredibly obvious that English is a secondary language for you. I had my doubts before, but you’ve all but confirmed that you’re really a netouyo.

            But setting that aside, I can of course understand you perfectly: your reply is without substance.

          • My_honourable_lord

            That’s the second time you have used the ‘english is your second language’. You are chinese. Everone here is aware of it. Welcome back Robert Zhou.

          • TheSOP

            First I thought that name was Vietnamese, but I never see Vietnamese defending hegemonic PRC policies… quite the opposite!

          • Alex Dương

            I personally think the Spratlys are Vietnamese, but don’t let that stop you from saying that I defend PRC hegemony; apparently, these days native Taiwanese people are defending PRC hegemony too.

            You’re more reasonable than most, but ultimately, you’re a hypocrite. You chafe at any characterization of California as “colonized territory,” but you have no qualms calling Tibet that. You approve of comments that suggest that China’s borders should revert either to those of the 11th Century BC or the 17th Century AD, but then you say you’re for “the status quo.”

            I’ve read Allen’s blog entries, and I was wrong. I no longer think that you vastly overexaggerate what “very pro-PRC positions” are; now I know you do.

            This may be a shocker to you, but calling you out on your hypocrisy is not defending PRC hegemony or expressing a “very pro-PRC position.”

          • David

            You know we did not just send settlers into Mexico and declare the western part of North America ours. California was part of a settlement treaty with the sovereign country of Mexico, who is allowed to make what treaties they like (the Treaty of Hidalgo Guadalupe to be specific, and we paid Mexico $15,000,000 to settle any legal claims regarding it). Also, Mexico was offered peace terms BEFORE it lost control of the whole western part of the United States and they refused. It was only after they were conquered (the capital was taken and occupied) that ceded this land (what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada etc. . .) to the U.S. All citizens of Mexico who lived in that area were offered a chance to relocate to Mexico or stay and be granted U.S. citizenship, 90% chose to stay. In addition, we legally bought a large chunk of land that bordered Mexico with the new land (The Gadsden Purchase) which is as legitimize as anything in international law (especially if you consider it happened 165 years ago before there was recognized international law). This was at a time when, if Mexico had won, they would have taken Texas and killed those who had supported the U.S. To compare that with the Chinese conquest of Tibet in terms of legitimacy is just silly.

          • TheSOP

            Yea and even more comparing Tibet 2013 where paramilitaries are actually occupying temples and manning street corners and Tibetans are self-immolating in protest to California 2013 which rivals most East Asia countries in economic out put not to mention standards of living and freedom, I think he has outed himself as a ideologue looking to apply a moral equivalency to Tibet and California where none exists.

          • Alex Dương

            David, it is intellectually dishonest on so many levels to refer to the acquisition of California as “part of a settlement treaty with the sovereign country of Mexico, who is allowed to make what treaties they like,” and you know it.

            1. Part of a settlement treaty? Wow, that’s a genteel way of sidestepping what you know actually happened: we started a war with Mexico on the grounds that U.S. soldiers had been attacked in the U.S. In reality, it was not clear that the attack was within U.S. borders.

            2. Allowed to make what treaties they like? Yes, you’re really allowed to do whatever you want when you lose a war. Right? Right? Come on, don’t do this.

            To be clear, I’m not saying that California should be returned to Mexico. What I am saying is that we should not be hypocritical. We got California and the rest of the Southwest by winning a war fought for expansionist reasons. Subsequently, we settled California with the then (and still current) dominant group – (non-Hispanic) whites.

            If you don’t have a problem with that, or if you have a problem with it but shake it off with “eh, I support the status quo,” then it’s kind of hard to say that you’ve got something against Chinese claims to (and control over) Tibet.

          • David

            Not dishonest at all. At the time of the war (whether you want to say it was legitimate or not) the U.S. did what every other power in the world was doing, grabbing land. It was still considered by most people, a legitimate way to expand your borders (as was buying land like we did in Alaska 15 years later).

            This is why Russia still has a legitimate claim to Siberia. It is why China has a legitimate (by TODAY’S standard) claim to most of the land in its current incarnation despite many parts of it not historically being part of their empire. But times have changed, when Japan took control of Korea in 1905 and then officially annexed it in 1910 most people did not bat an eye but we KNEW it was wrong. After the second world war they did not try to argue that it had been theirs for 35 years so they should be allowed to keep it. France and England were wrong to try and keep their colonies in SE Asia and Africa for as long as they did.

            As a world we had moved beyond the acceptance of that behavior (not the actual act of it, just the international acceptance of it, baby steps). Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979 the international community complained loudly. You can argue whether we should have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for the reasons we did (I suspect I already know your answer) but you can not say we did it to occupy the land and make it part of the United States (which despite winning the actual war against those countries armies, we did not try or even want to do). Israel even gave back the West Bank, which they won in a war (year I know they kept the Golan Heights but that is for a different day)

            My point by these examples is the same, the 20th century was not the 19th, 18th or 10th centuries. What was normal then (in terms of nation building or putting land under your control) is not normal today. I do not even BLAME the Chinese for wanting to keep Tibet. The current leaders inherited the mess and if I were them I would want to keep it too, but it is a mess and it will never settle down.

          • Alex Dương

            Again, I agree with everything you said. I’m not saying I approve of Beijing’s oppression of religious (and more broadly, personal) freedom in Tibet or elsewhere in China; I don’t. All I’m saying is we shouldn’t be hypocritical. I can see from your comments that you are not, and I applaud you for that.

            PS: Let’s verify your guess. I supported all attempts to capture or execute bin Laden. But as soon as we knew with reasonable certainty that he wasn’t in Afghanistan, we should have left that country. We should never have invaded Iraq. Hussein had no connection to 9/11 or al-Qaeda. Iraq set a very bad precedent: if you don’t want to be invaded by the U.S., get weapons of mass destruction at all costs. North Korea quickly adapted, which of course didn’t help.

          • David

            lol I would like to say I am brilliant but in all fairness it was not a hard guess, this is not dissimilar to many peoples opinions.

          • Alex Dương

            It’s true for all netouyos, so of course it applies to the two of you.

          • Tiny Tim

            This SHOULD be the present map of China, with the proper boundaries…

          • TheSOP

            Actually parts of Jilin and Liaoning are ethnic Korean areas and have been part of Korean kingdoms since, what is that phrase again? oh yes “ancient times”. If all of East Asia applied the same irridentism and revisionist claims that the PRC does the region would descend into bloody war and chaos. China is setting a terrible precedent and must/will be stopped by the US and our East Asian allies.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Can Britain get Hong Kong back please? We were there for 100 years.

          • Tiny Tim

            Those sympathizers all suffer the same symptoms of Stockholm syndrome or Helsinki syndrome…

            “Stockholm syndrome, or capture–bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness. The FBI’s Hostage Barricade Database System shows that roughly 27% of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome.”

            “Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.” One commonly used hypothesis to explain the effect of Stockholm syndrome is based on Freudian theory. It suggests that the bonding is the individual’s response to trauma in becoming a victim. Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they cease to be a threat.”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

            …This is a tool of PRC, used on their population…This explains why we have so many of these sympathizers running amok in their country and abroad…

          • Comebackkid13

            Yeah, it just dirties its hands in state building/burning and putting boots on the ground all over the world, with base forces trumping local defense forces. They don’t have to fly our flag, but you know who they answer to. I think you miss the point of modern imperialism. Also, the fact that you served gives you a bias towards the US military being a benevolent actor, rather than the latest version of out of control, military adventurism.

          • TheSOP

            Who benefited for the last 30 years when not a fuck was given about Senkakus or the SCS? Oh wait wasnt that everyone? Lay off your Xinhua propaganda pal

          • Comebackkid13

            I don’t know anything about Xinhua propaganda and your reply is seriously lacking. It’s hallow and is without any relevance to the claim I am making about America’s expansionary policies, state building, and proxy war use
            and therefore how it would be hypocritical of us to ever slander a country for aggressive posturing. Have you ever heard of the term Blowback?

            That being said, I am not ready to back the Chinese government or any aggressive territorial acquisitions they may attempt. However, people like you who believe that America Imperialism is a singular example of “good” or “righteous” or “justified” imperialism tend to make engage in a lot of logical fallacies. We aren’t the Romans. We aren’t better than the old British empire.

            Just because we pass out some food after a hurricane doesn’t invalidate atrocities committed by our government. I think you would have, for example, trouble convincing the families of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children who died due to starvation during Bush’s implementation, and Clinton’s continuation of sanctions on Iraq.

            http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html

            Condemn China, fine.

            Praise the work of American Imperialism? No thank you.
            Keep it on topic.

          • TheSOP

            If you are referring to East Asia please feel free to site America’s imperialism. America has allies, allies with free wills. Honestly you don’t bring much to the table. Drone strikes are imperialism? Pffft, sure and so is handing out MREs to Filippinos in your book I’m sure.

            The issue is about East Asia and China’s expansionary policies, if you cant keep on subject and need to run the debate completely out of the region you look like you are grasping. Cha cha.

          • Comebackkid13

            MRE’s don’t negate aggressive foreign policy with serious repercussions and unforeseen blowback. And we have allies in the Middle East, as well little sir. The Saudi’s love us for giving them all those weapons and security in order to prop up our Petro Dollar.

            Our major allies in East Asia are past conquered foes who have been reduced to America’s barking dogs.

            Just because S. Korea and Japan back us doesn’t mean America’s Asia Pivot strategy is any less aggressive or threatening to major powers in Asia.

            Remember my point though, I feel you are fine condemning China. However, you can’t in anyway make America out as an arbiter of justice. One in the same homie

          • ex-expat

            Ok. I am the first one to admit that the US had made a lot of mistakes. Governments do, by nature, act out of self interest. But when you say it’s the pot calling the kettle black, I think that is a little extreme. For example, I am sure you would agree that every single government has some form of corruption, but if Norway were to call Zimbabwe corrupt, would that also be calling the kettle black?

            “Our major allies in East Asia are past conquered foes who have been reduced to America’s barking dogs.”

            Like Japan and Korea? The US played a large part in the development of those countries. Both are prosperous democracies that have a very high standard of living (though of course not perfect either), and are peaceful as well.

            “Just because S. Korea and Japan back us doesn’t mean America’s Asia Pivot strategy is any less aggressive or threatening to major powers in Asia.”

            What powers do you mean, and how so? IMO, even before the “rise of China,” our relationship with East Asia was pretty damn good.

            “Building forces in Korea is antagonistic and expansionist.”

            Are we not there because they want us to be? The only reason we were there in the first place was because of North Korea. Are there other reasons for remaining? Probably, but we could be asked to leave at any time.

            I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I think it can also be looked at as the best of less than ideal choices. Would you rather live in a world run by the US, or one that was run by China and Russia? According to nearly every single one of China’s neighbors, they would rather have the former, and I don’t blame them.

          • TheSOP

            Your verbiage and inability to focus on East Asia belies your biases. “Barking Dogs” yes I do hear some PRC apologists barking. The only state threatened by the US pivot is an imperialist state with an expansionist agenda. Your rabid anti-Americanism is very evident as its negative effect on your ability to see the situation as it is, one where an expansionist hegemonic China is being checked by a status quo maintaining America and her FREE allies.

            Dogs be barking, you got that much right. The dogs of Sino-imperialism.

          • Repatriated

            Major difference would be that a single carrier fleet could decimate the majority of China’s military…..

          • Alex Dương

            Man, if it’s this easy to beat China, why did we bother invading Iraq at all?

          • TheSOP

            Iraq? China? Connection?

          • Alex Dương

            See the original comment: “Major difference would be that a single carrier fleet could decimate the majority of China’s military…..”

            If it’s that easy to beat China, why did we invade Iraq instead of the (then) third- or fourth-largest economy in the world?

          • TheSOP

            Why would we? Sorry that makes no sense whatsoever.

          • Alex Dương

            Why’d we invade Iraq? Did any of the reasons for going in turn out to be legitimate? None of them did. If it’s so easy to beat China, why not use those BS reasons to justify an invasion of China instead of Iraq?

          • TheSOP

            Still doesnt make any sense. Iraq was BS, but it has no connection to China whatsoever.

          • Alex Dương

            Iraq was BS. That’s the point: if we were dead set on fighting a war for no good reason, why Iraq? Why not China? According to keyboard jockeys like Repatriated, “a single carrier fleet could decimate the majority of China’s military.”

          • TheSOP

            Key phrase “no good reason”. They had a reason, one based on flimsy connections and outright lies, but they had a “reason” nonetheless. China has no connection to Iraq.

          • Alex Dương

            You’re really missing the point: if outright lies can be “reasons,” why not just outright lie about China and use that as a pretext for war? Why lie about Iraq but not China? I mean, it’s so easy to beat China, just ask Repatriated!

            If you really can’t see where I’m going with this, let’s cut to the chase: Repatriated is full of crap. That’s all I’m saying. China can’t beat the U.S. in a conventional war, but China has nukes; it’s not getting invaded any time soon.

          • TheSOP

            Oh I didnt read that far up the thread, I just disagree on the rather nonsensical connection.

            But I guess there actually is one; China is taking the GWB playbook for Iraq and applying it to the East China Sea, SCS, India etc. Make up a pretext for conflict no matter how flimsy, sell it to masses until they are frothing at the mouth for war, then invade.

            Damn, actually you made a great connection, just perhaps not the one you intended.

          • vonskippy

            Because then who would the US get to be their manufacturing bitches?

          • Alex Dương

            Um, colonized China?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Because you make our t-shirts.

          • Alex Dương

            Netouyo like “Made in the U.S.A.” t-shirts? Well, I suppose it’s as close to being an American as you’ll get.

          • My_honourable_lord

            British. Mind your language young man:-)

          • Alex Dương

            Whatever you say, netouyo.

          • My_honourable_lord

            To sell iraqi oil to china:-)

          • TheSOP

            Actually we invaded and they got all the oil contracts, worked great for China. American politicians are our own greatest weakness, al-Queda aint got shit of George W Bush.

          • Repatriated

            The USA isn’t the “shit disturber” in this case. I have no doubts that the Japanese navy could settle this issue on their own…but if the US Navy is dragged into it…things won’t go favorably for China, regardless of what you “i hate my government, but love them” types think. China has been like a barking little dog. Big bark until someone actually enters the scene….then they run like hell with tails between legs.

          • Alex Dương

            Hold on. Are you actually positioning yourself as a “I love my government” type?

          • My_honourable_lord

            America could of course, commission the somali pirates and issue them with Letters of Marque. Send them in. Those pirates would have a field day. Chinese navy would be history just like that ancient carrier.

            Jokes aside, if Her Majesty’s Navy gets involved. China is in serious doo doo.

          • USA imperialistic? Ha! Are we reading the same history books? If you want t have an argument start with the British, Belgians, French and Spanish. Sheesh. Or learn the correct definition of words before using them.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Yes, yours. We be vampires.

          • My_honourable_lord

            DF? Dumb Fuck-5, 31, 41. Have fun.

            Search X Band Radar. Your ICBM’s will take off and neutralised over chinese airspace. Then you can breathe in the lovely air.

          • Alex Dương

            Engrish subarashii!

          • My_honourable_lord

            Hah? Elaborate please. I’m lost on this one.

          • TheSOP

            Thats Japan-glish :P You Engrish a so wonderfullru

          • My_honourable_lord

            Chinese ICBM? Wassat? I CANT BOMB MERIKKA?

          • utera

            That’s not how war works now jobjed. Coastal defenses have little meaning if you do not intend on invading. Simply crippling china is relatively easy, no factory can survive being hit by a smart bomb or cruise missile now, world war 2 lasted a long time because they had to drop hundreds of bombs to garrantee a hit on a target…now its one target one bomb one kill. An effective blockage of china is relatively easy to enforce, after that its just watch them starve, invasion of china is not necessary.

          • Jobjed

            Smart bombs and cruise missiles are not wunderwaffe like the V-2 was. They can be intercepted; quite easily I might add. As of now, Chinese cities are all under the protective envelope of HQ-16 and HQ-9 SAM systems, which are capable of intercepting missiles and other projectiles. Their naval variants have demonstrated multiple times the ability to intercept oncoming missiles in numerous videos. The only way any country is going to get through Chinese SAM defences would be via ballistic missiles, but then we can all wave the world goodbye as Chinese and US nukes saturate the atmosphere with radioactive soot and introduce nuclear winter.

          • utera

            And sam sites are targeted by harm missiles. You can debate which counter would win first but Its just a fact that modern weapons are accurate enough that important facilities will be targeted and destroyed without much problem. Its been said by an American military leaders that in the next war you fight with what you have. You won’t be able to rebuild things like during ww2. We know where all the major factories are, where major supply lines are, we have full satellite coverage and maps of everything now.

          • Jobjed

            Indeed, ARM missiles are designed to counter SAM sites, but first they have to be carried to within range of the target by aircraft. China has the world’s second or third largest air force and one of the most sophisticated and multi-tiered SAM networks; there is very little that the USAF can do with all those intact. The ARM missiles, while effective against wide-area defence systems like the HQ-9 and the Russian S-300, are one of the main targets of medium-area-defence and point defence systems like HQ-16 and LD-2000 or the Russian Buk system.

            Now say the US sends B-2 stealth bombers, which cannot be locked on from ground-based X-band radars. The Chinese will detect the B-2s with UHF-band radars and then dispatch a sortie of fighters or UCAVs with short range AAMs. While the B-2 might be invulnerable to ground lock-ons, it cannot escape short range AAMs which do not rely on radar to hit the target.

            Essentially, the US cannot hope to utilise the full might of their well-versed combined-arms strategy when at war with China on Chinese soil. The US navy can easily wipe out the Chinese navy but then what? The Chinese coast is littered with anti-ship missile systems and they are all protected by CIWS which shreds missiles before they can impact. In fact, with the advent of the DF-21D, I doubt the US fleets would be able to bring their large vessels to within amphibious landing range in the first place.

            The war will either become a nuclear war or war of attrition. China is 95% self-sufficient in grain and has a land border with the largest country in the world; getting natural resources will not be a difficulty. It’s actually hard to tell which country would be the first to break in a war of attrition.

          • TheSOP

            As I outlined above the US should strengthen all the Philippines position in the SCS, this conflict is one, not separate issues.

        • YourSupremeCommander

          China ain’t no Afghanistan son, it’s a new world order.

          • My_honourable_lord

            ‘it’s a new world order.’

            Disorder.

          • My_honourable_lord

          • DearDairy

            this is just one more regime. not a new world order. don’t believe the hype. BITCH. the bubble will burst. war will be started to distract from the failings of the regime. BITCH.

    • Alex Dương

      Dealing with unarmed, unescorted bombers is not particularly difficult. Dealing with the follow-up response, however, is.

    • Repatriated

      LOL. A SINGLE F-22 could probably take out the entire Chinese Airforce…and never be detected.

      • My_honourable_lord

        And then land on their aircraft carrier and offer terms.

        • linette lee

          Here you are happily imaging killing Chinese. Bomb and kill them then land military aircraft to offer terms. Who is calling for killing? YOU. If you are American you shoudl be ashamed of yourself. You are giving America bad rep. So happy to kill people in other nations and that’s all you ever talk about.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Where did i mention killing people? I told you to stop drinking many times. Didn’t I? Now go to your room!

          • TheSOP

            Have you become an alcoholic and had issues with depression and homesickness since going to the US? Perhaps you should return home, America is not for you.

          • My_honourable_lord

            She be tripping.

          • linette lee

            I do go back home to Hong kong annually. I have two homes.

            You should be ashamed to keep calling yourself American. Please stop that. The rest of anti war Americans will hate you. People like you are giving USA a bad reputation. Many Americans don’t like USA foreign Policy. And now you keep saying those who don’t support USA foreign Policy are traitors. What are you? A tyrant. Trying to oppress voices that dont’ support. You think you are working for those old communist party?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Woman, would you care to show me ONE example of where i have called for the killing of anyone? Give your anus a rest and let your mouth talk for a change.

      • Zappa Frank

        Don’t underestimated china. They have stealth technology too and highly developed, like the j 20 chengdu.

        • DearDairy

          “highly developed”? What in China is highly developed? GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE YOU SILLY BITCH.

          • Zappa Frank

            you may not believe but their j 20 is considered something. Military develop may not have close relation with civil develop, take the Russia, some places are almost at the stone age, but still their military teconology is something..

          • DearDairy

            I take back the silly bitch comment. OUT OF LINE. APOLOGIES.

            But seriously, lets the J20 in action first before we crown them. The Chinese are fucking inept at engineering.

        • My_honourable_lord

          Stealth technology?

      • BigpimpingBalla

        Yeah american military nerds claim they do have the star war weapon too,it could take out Chinese ballistic missile LOL

        I mean of course PLA decide to go over the limit aka MAD
        but since the american military nerds claim they do have star war weapon……..

  • My_honourable_lord

    I think Eattot has been promoted to defence minister of china. That would explain the ridiculous position china has placed itself in.

    • TheSOP

      Is this a new handle for some one? Seem familiar :P

      • My_honourable_lord

        Hello:-)

      • My_honourable_lord

        Course not…

  • 5,000 years of uncivilization

    If China is so protective of what they claim to be theirs, then why doesn’t this so called “air defense zone” encompass Taiwan and all the other islands China claims as their own? Seems like a silly distraction to me in order to get the general publics’ mind off what state owned Sinopec did in Qingdao.

    • nondimwit

      They will expand it once they see the world does nothing about this sea grab.

      This looks almost exactly like the beginning of WW2 where Hitler started grabbing land and we let him get away with it to pacify him.

      Obama = weakest man alive.

      • 5,000 years of uncivilization

        It will be interesting to see that happen. I just don’t understand why only those rocks and not the other islands. I don’t think Obama is the weakest man alive… i’m a 41 year old vegetarian, i don’t play sports, my back hurts in winter and i’m not the leader of any country.

    • Jobjed

      Because there’s no credible threat coming from other vectors. An ‘air defence IDENTIFICATION zone’ is not an expansion of sovereign territory, its simply a request for all aircraft entering the zone to identify itself clearly so that it can be disregarded as a potential threat. Taiwan’s air force is already monitored by Fujian radar stations; an ADIZ would be redundant and the South East Asian countries that have disputes with China don’t have strong enough air forces to warrant the establishment of an ADIZ.

      The US made an ADIZ when Soviet bombers became a credible threat. Likewise, the Japanese military has been escalating its rhetoric since Abe took office thus China deems it necessary to establish her own ADIZ facing Japan. An ADIZ is only announced so that other countries know of your intentions to check up on unidentified aircraft. It also allows a general explanation for interceptions. Whereas an interception outside ADIZs would require a lengthy diplomatic explanation, an interception within ADIZs can simply be explained by “unidentified aircraft within our ADIZ”; which is why you don’t see huge diplomat fusses today over American interceptions of Russian Tu-95s near Alaska.

      • 5,000 years of uncivilization

        So the other islands that China claims already have an ADIZ? Also, was it just a coincidence that this ADIZ was announced the day after the state owned Sinopec tragedy or was it designed to take the general publics’ mind off of the tragedy like so many observers have speculated?

        • Jobjed

          To quote myself; “South East Asian countries that have disputes with China don’t have strong enough air forces to warrant the establishment of an ADIZ.”

          • 5,000 years of uncivilization

            So, no… only the one tiny island has an ADIZ. Wonder why that one? Because it is disputed by Japan or because it’s a distraction?

  • flightisallright

    So the USA goes to do military exercises in what China just declared to be their special zone and calls it “diplomacy”? It doesn’t look like a very good way to find a genuine solution. The problem is that the US is no impartial mediator between the two sides, and still they feel like having a say. The US would have to drop its alliance with Japan in order to be able to make judgements about the situation.

  • JackElliot

    It’s hard to understand using standing army size as a realistic threat. A symmetrical war between the US and China will be nuclear from first strike.

    • Repatriated

      First shot would most likely be air to air over the islands.

  • nondimwit
    • Jobjed

      I like how you’ve stated a fact and also provided a source but two people still saw fit to downvote you simply because they didn’t like the fact. This is the ultimate exemplification of ‘petty intellectual dishonesty’.

      • nondimwit

        Agreed. Why bother with facts when ideology is so much more fun.

      • carmouflagger

        LOL, Welcome to Chinasmack sire, you must be new here :)

  • markus peg

    This map is older and shows its mine so legally i can claim it and no one else can go in this area.

    • Alex Dương

      So the holes in the Japanese Government’s claim to “Senkaku” never stood out to you?

    • linette lee

      hahha…I love this. This is the best map. :)

      • DearDairy

        wow everyone hates you.

        • My_honourable_lord

          I disagree with linette but i don’t hate her. Not at all. That is too deep.

          • DearDairy

            no you’re right, hate, how can you hate an internet stranger?

            She’s just sad and lonely, in addition to stupid and emotional. Can’t hate a dog for licking it’s balls eating it’s own shit, just nature of the beast. I see Linette the same way. A dog or monkey. =)

            I still favor the sterilisation thing, but apparently that’s not allowed on this site.

            Who down voted me 4 ? I’M SO HURT!

        • TheSOP

          I dislike her, but I try not to hate people based simply on their being mentally unstable.

          • DearDairy

            I really dislike her as well. But think about this if she didn’t have this site or the internet, she’d be running around beating kids with hammers or something. At least this way, no one is hurt. People like her need to be isolated and not allowed to have children. SHUDDER.

      • David

        You know it looks like his circle has clipped a piece of China, maybe Shanghai? Markus, do you mind if I am the military governor over Shanghai (to be ruled in your name of course).

        • linette lee

          You Sir David in charge with commander markus peg

  • Robert Rou

    “When B-52 fly over, it sounds like a thunderbolt, the roar of justice reverberating in the sky. Uncle Sam, the symbol of freedom.”

    Lol, best comment. America welcomes you.

    “The largest number of episodes — 1,904 — appeared to be “roamers,” in which a foreigner whose cellphone was being wiretapped without a warrant came to the United States, where individual warrants are required. A spike in such problems in a single quarter, the report said, could be because of Chinese citizens visiting friends and family for the Chinese Lunar New Year holiday.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/16/us/nsa-often-broke-rules-on-privacy-audit-shows.html

  • Stefan Xu

    China’s flight zone should be respected. If it was USA who had made a flight zone then everyone would have obeyed it.

  • Stefan Xu

    “I’m willing to do everything I can to support my country. China has a population of 1.3 billion, and if everyone makes a contribution, which country can contend with us Chinese?”

    There also 50 million Chinese comrades over the world who can help.

    Chinese of the world, unite!

    • wes707

      Stefan, so you don’t owe anything to Sweden or the UK for your education and upbringing? You base your loyalty purely based on racial lines. If you want it that way, it’ll be all your “Chinese comrades” against the world.

      • nondimwit

        Don’t bother using logic with a wǎng píng yuán.

      • Stefan Xu

        What do you by owe? My parents have already paid so much taxes anyways. Anyhow I still respect Sweden since I lived here a long time. But I don’t feel Swedish or anything like that.

        • wes707

          By the Swedish allowing you and your parents to immigrate, become educated, work, and enjoy the benefits of a developed nation. That’s not your right but a privilege. The fact that you can’t even see that makes you a very pathetic person. Do you think loyalty should only be based on race?

          • Stefan Xu

            My father was born here but my mother immigrated yes.
            I still like Sweden and it’s my European home. I plan to work here a couple years too after graduation. But I don’t cheer at Sweden in sports for example. I wouldn’t fight for Sweden.
            Do you know why I got this feeling? Because Swedish people don’t see me as Swedish. I’m always seen as a immigrant in some way based on how I look.

          • Germandude

            And when you live in China one day, let me invite you for a beer and laugh about your past assumptoin that the locals regard me as a foreigner and you as their own.

          • Zappa Frank

            Have you ever llive long in china? You will likely back to Sweden after few years, like many other Chinese abroad did before you

          • Stefan Xu

            I lived in China for 2 years before going to Sweden for university. I really like China and I plan to go to move to China after I have gained some work experience in Sweden first. I want to start a family in China.

          • Zappa Frank

            Where did you live? What were you doing? I think is hard to believe that china is palace better than sweden. Sincerely for a common people I think there are few places where life is harder than in china. That’s why most try desperately to go abroad. However good luck with your plan.

          • Stefan Xu

            I lived in Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, Guangzhou and Shenyang. I was studying Chinese language.

            Ok, look. Sweden higher living standards on average than China. That are many things that are not so good in China.

            However China is developing very fast and doing tremendous improvements. Life is not so hard in China as you claim it to be. It also depends were you live. I can tell you that there are many places were life is harder than China, for example Africa, India, and South East Asia to name a few.

            The cities on the east coast are nearing the standards of their surrounding developed Asian countries.

            What exactly do you mean by life is hard for common people?

            Common people are getting richer and now in every city and town you can see bunch of brand new Mercs, Audis, BMWs, VWs, and even an occasional Bentley and Lambo. Chinese people have quite nice cars I must say, even compared to the developed countries.

            Restaurants are very affordable and the everyday cost of living is quite low.

            Education enrollment is over 94% which is good.

            One of the biggest things I like about China is that it’s quite cheap. Of course many western products are more expensive in China than the west but the everyday cost of living is low. If you stick to Chinese products then you can it gets even more cheaper.

            The high inequality in China means that the cost of labor is very low and it makes service related things cheap such as restaurants. In Sweden it’s too expensive to dine out many days a week but in China many people does it.

            If you have a relatively high paying job in China then I would say life is better than the west. You can afford more luxury things that you couldn’t afford in the west. I rather live a semi-luxury life in China than a middle-class life in the west.

            In China 10k RMB salary is enough to live that semi-luxurious life where I could eat out in malls and ride the taxi home

          • Zappa Frank

            10k may be semi luxury in a second level town, not in Shanghai, Beijing or other bigs. Life is 100% worse than in europe, there’s no health care, school, and so on paid by government. Almost no plans for poor people, disabled and so on. Life is good just if you are rich, but take a factory worker, in. Nina he’s a shit struggling for life almost in Sweden he’s rich and have a car or two, like a medium director in china. And I don’t even have to talk about poisoned food, pollution , environment degradation and so on that affect anyone regardless the money. Besides even in smaller town what you get of semi luxury for good price is just semiluxury in appearance, I live in SH now, the compound next to mine has some houses that cost 5milion yuan, just done, and seem already older than the house I have in Europe that was built in ’70s… In Europe these homes. Would not be judged even livable, would be maybe popular house…. And it is the same everywhere in china, if you was luxury you pay more than in Europe otherwise is fake luxury, like the hotel I was in (5stars) with fake book of “Leo Tolstoy” (just war and pace in every color) in the dinning room

          • Stefan Xu

            Most people are healthy and very rarely go to the hospital. So it doesn’t really affect if it is paid by the government or not.

            When it comes to schools the enrollment rate is still over 94% in China so people still pay for it even though it still costs money.

            When it comes to food, just be careful what you eat and avoid street food and you’ll be fine. That’s what most Chinese do.

            A factory worker in Sweden can’t really afford two cars, maybe two older cars more than 10 years old. Even one brand new car would be too expensive to a factory worker and even to white collar jobs such as engineers. Many people buy used cars here. Factory workers can only afford to go to vacation inside Europe as going beyond that is too expensive.

            However in China when people buy a car they buy a brand new car. Brand new Mercs, Audis, BMWs are even more expensive in China than in the west yet you still see bunch of them.

            Moreover almost everybody buys things such as cars and apartments without debt in China while in the west everybody is pretty much indebted. In China most people live a debt-free life.

            Buying a brand new car is one of my dreams and I wonder how I will afford it if I work in Sweden.

            An engineer salary in Sweden is about 30k RMB converted into RMB. After tax deduction you only have 23k and about 10k goes into mortgage or rent. Food costs about 6k a month. Other expenses is about 2-3k. That will leave you with just 5-6k. So then you have to chose between saving for the vacation or buying a car. It’s hard to have both unless you buy an cheap older car.

            In China brand new mid-level cars such as Volkswagen, Hyundai, and some Chinese brands just cost about 100-150k which is quite cheap.

            White collar jobs such as engineers earn quite good in China I would say, about 15k.

            On a last note; in first tier cities such as Shanghai, Shenzhen, Beijing, and Guangzhou you can live quite comfortably with around 10-12k a month. I did it.

          • hess

            “An engineer salary in Sweden is about 30k RMB converted into RMB. After tax deduction you only have 23k and about 10k goes into mortgage or rent.” 30k? hahahaha, how about NO. the average engineer salary in Sweden is 48000 Sek which is about 44000 RMB. And 10k a month in mortgage? You wont even have to pay that much for a 2 million SEK apartment.

            “Buying a brand new car is one of my dreams and I wonder how I will afford it if I work in Sweden.” You’re a fucking failure, I’m an alarm technician and have no problem what so ever with buying a brand new car.

          • Stefan Xu

            http://www.lonestatistik.se/loner.asp/yrke/Ingenjor-1164

            According do this the average salary for an engineer in Sweden is about 32k SEK which translates roughly into 30k RMB.

            I was talking about Stockholm when I wrote the high mortgage. 10k mortgage is actually not on the expensive side here.

            So you say you’re an alarm technician, how much do you earn approx?

            Får man skriva på något annan språk än Engelska här?

          • hess

            http://www.sverigesingenjorer.se/rattlon according to this its 48k. I live in Stockholm as well and 10k in mortgage is still pretty high since youll pay something like 6k for a 2million apartment.
            Well, the average salary at the company i work at is higher than 30k, thats all i’ll say. ingen aning om man får skriva på andra språk.

          • Stefan Xu

            Ok, I may have exaggerated my mortgage number I a bit…it’s should be around 6-7k.

            As for the salary that high number is severely inflated by the older people who get around 60-70k.
            For a person with less than 10 years experience the average salary is between 30-45k.

          • hess

            30k is the entry salary… and it increases a LOT after your first year

          • Germandude

            However, I bet you don’t define yourself by the car you drive. Sth Mr. “WhenIamOldIwillLiveInTheLandOfDreamsChina” in his simple mindset thinks determines success. He is 21 though. Give him some more decades to grow up.

          • Zappa Frank

            Stefan what are you talking about? Do you compare who can buy a Mercedes in china with a factory worker in Sweden? Compare a factory worker in Sweden with a factory worker in china, the difference is huge. Factory worker can just afford a vacation in Europe? factory worker in china can barely back home for spring festival. Do they can afford to buy any kind of cars even cheap Chinese brands? no!
            “most people are healthy and don’t need to go to hospital”? do you read what you write? Never read something more absurd in my life. I wonder why than Chinese struggling so much to pay health assistance for children and older parents…why most cannot get assistance even for common disease…
            Chinese are debts free???? You’ve been in a never existed china maybe…all Chinese I know have more debts than anyone else, or they have used all parents money, of course, to pay some cheap houses that has the same price than in Europe with a salary of 3-4k is impossible in another way..
            In shanghai you don’t live good with 10k, just a pretty normal house, far from center take 5k/month…but more over 10k is not a medium salary in china.
            Food safety is not just about street food… really I don’t understand if you’ re just want to defend china so much to deny the evidence or you’ve never been in china.
            this conversation is useless or you’re not honest or you’re stupid, and according to what you wrote before I’m sure you’re not honest, there’s no point in talking if you cheat and deny what is obvious to “defend china from foreigners”. Linette is by far better than you, she has never denied that life in china is good just for rich.. you lie and nothing else.

            Ah, last thing, good luck finding a girl, without house and car.. how loyal girls in china.. they just care for your money.. than smile when you’ll see that to foreigners take less than spit on the ground to find a girl..

          • Stefan Xu

            I lived in China and I know China.

            When I had an infection my eye I just went to my university’s hospital and got instant treatment without any waiting. Everything was new and up to western standards. I know healthcare is one of China’s major problems but the problems are more pronounced in less developed smaller cities. In first tier cities healthcare is quite ok.

            In Shanghai I rented a room in the city center for 2k…

            To live good in SH you don’t need to spend more than 100 RMB a day…

            Also I already have a nice humble Chinese girlfriend who doesn’t care so much about car or house. She is from countryside and she thinks love is the most important. It’s mostly city girls who are gold diggers.

            All in all please watch this guy’s video, I share the same view as him. You’ll also understand why I wrote what I wrote.

          • Zappa Frank

            you go to university hospital..? you know nothing than.
            .take a look on the street even in shanghai…even next to Nanjing road there are streets that seem medieval .. You’re just saying bullshits to defend china against evidences.. even the so called “modern” shanghai, is modern just for 1 or 2% of people, for the rest there’s nothing modern.. oh well, i’m in china, here youtube doesn’t work.. you got some girlfriends, they told you they care about love.. and you believed that right? you got them just because you came from Sweden! and you didn’t even understand that.. I guess that you don’ t even understand your country.. or what you think is your country.

          • Stefan Xu

            I know the standard in China is below the developed countries but I think within 10-15 years it will get there. Your talking as if China is at India or Africa level in terms of development.
            The GDP per capita of China is nearing 10k USD and the HDI is also nearing high development.

            I know there are many slummy areas in Shanghai but I would say around 50 percent of the city looks developed, for example Jing’an Temple area, French concession, Pudong, Xujiahui, Wujiaochang etc.

            HK, Taiwan, and South Korea can also look shabby at times.

            Maybe my standards are low? Maybe it’s only me? To enjoy life in China you can’t live as you do in the west, you must live like the Chinese. When in Rome do ads the Romans do.

            I’m a guy that can endure anything and I’m easily satisfied so maybe I forget how bad it is? I don’t mind eating street food everyday for example, I did actually eat it almost everyday.
            I don’t mind if the toilet clogs every day.
            I can endure freezing during the winter. Just use jackets and gloves inside solves the problem.
            I don’t mind riding hard seat train for 10 hours during the night squeezed with poor migrant workers.

            For internet I paid for a VPN so no difference for me.

            My girlfriend is an ethnic minority and behaves quite different from your average Chinese girl. She liked me even before she knew I was from Sweden.

          • Zappa Frank

            ok maybe I was wrong about you. I still think that life is better in Europe by far and I have many doubts life in china will ever get the same standards, even in 100 years, but it maybe also that i’m a foreigner in china, and china makes you feel foreigner every minute of your life, that’s make life annoying in a long period.

          • Stefan Xu

            According to my calculations China will become a developed country within 20 years.

            If their Asian neighbors did it, so can China.

          • Zappa Frank

            life in those countries is still worse than in Europe usually and china is bigger by far and with many more problems. I have a lot of doubts can be developed at all, besides unlike other asians population Chinese are less likely to do something for the country itself, but are usually more selfish and with less discipline… however what will happen is not decided by what you or I can say, we shall see..

          • Stefan Xu

            Singapore, HK, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan are developed countries with similar living standards to Europe.

          • Zappa Frank

            their gdp pro capite is similar or even higher, but living standards are not, just look only week/ working hours or life’s stress.. is compleately different, live in europe is a vacation compared to live in sk or japan… but that’s not the point, to have gdp/person like japan china is probably simply impossible, because the economy cannot materially suopport such development for 1.5 bilion people..however we shall see

          • Stefan Xu

            Yeah I know life in the west is like a vacation compared to the developed Asian countries. But it depends what you want. One can argue life is more interesting in those countries than living in nice quiet suburb in the west. I like both.

          • Zappa Frank

            i dunno, i don’t find a lot of interest in streeful life and competition ar all costs.. but de gustibus disputandum est

          • whuddyasack

            I’m happy for you Stefan, I really am. It’s nice to find true love and I think that’s the most important. To understand what it means and the responsibilities involved.

            “It’s mostly city girls who are gold diggers”

            I humbly have to disagree here ;-P
            I think that city girls can be quite good hearted too, I’ve known of some great couples and women that were superwomen, they worked hard, cooked, cleaned while taking care of the family and playing and teaching their children maths and how to speak, read or write. Even despite their sheltered upbringing, they tried their best to learn new skills such as sewing or planning outings for their family. I always wished that they would have some “me-time” for themselves since they seemed overburdened with work.

            I think women are women and men are men. We shouldn’t let stereotypes get the best of us.

            I wish you and your girlfriend all the best ;-P

          • Stefan Xu

            Thanks! :)

          • whuddyasack

            No worries. I read an ass-long comment to one of your posts and even recommended some good books/movies.

            I actually understand how you feel, although I can’t say I experienced racism first hand. If you need anything, I’m always there to provide a sympathetic ear.

          • TheSOP

            I agree. He is wearing some rose tinted glasses, a few centimeters thick.

          • Germandude

            Hahahahahaha, hilarious. A factory worker in Europe can’t afford a new car. That’s right in many cases. In many other cases, factory workers know sth better to invest in.

            And now here you come: “However in China when people buy a car they buy a brand new car. Brand new Mercs, Audis, BMWs are even more expensive in China than in the west yet you still see bunch of them.”

            Stefan Xu, 1st December 2013

            Save your comment and read it again in 10 years. We laugh together. This is so hilarious. Factory worker = no money. Stefan Xu: Success is determined by the car you own.
            Materialism at it’s finest.

            And you claim to be a good student… omg, please continue posting for my entertainment.

          • Stefan Xu

            I’m not materialistic, I just used that example to argue that Chinese people have more money than you think and that westerners aren’t all rich. I didn’t say the western factory workers have no money. Yes they have much more money than their Chinese equivalent but since the cost of living is very high in the west the salary mostly gets eaten up by the expenses.

          • Zappa Frank

            still living standards of workers are a lot higher in Europe than in china. this is undeniable.

          • Stefan Xu

            I haven’t said that European factory workers have the same living standards as the Chinese ones. I don’t deny that.

            But when it comes to white collar jobs the gap narrows, the difference in living quality between European office workers and their Chinese equivalents can be quite similar.

          • Zappa Frank

            not at all, maybe the just the office may seems similar, but lives of people are very different.. white collars in Europe buy cars, homes, go abroad for vacation and so on… a simple clerk in Europe can do all this and in while do not worry for healthcare, children schools fees and so on.. besides it has also time for hobbies, something unthinkable in china.. they buy small ships, go to fish, drive motorbikes, and so on… . have you ever been in the house of a simple clerk in china? nothing of comparable…their life is really sad… how do I know this? I’m a clerk..

          • Stefan Xu

            Yeah of course if you are a low level office worker then life is hard in China. Who I’m talking about are those who have slightly higher positions and those who work in large famous companies. There are many rich people in Shanghai and I mean…they must be working with something right? I see bunch of upper-middle class people walking around in Pudong in and out of office scrapers.

          • whuddyasack

            Of course it is. Europeans don’t have to contend with a large population, or heavy pollution due to industrialization. Not to mention they have much better infrastructure and experience, even if that infrastructure is years old.

          • Germandude

            Yes, live your dream. Be careful that it won’t become your nightmare.

          • Germandude

            Please show me a factory worker in China, who on average makes appprox. RMB 3000/month, that drives a brand new Audi/Mercedes/BMW.
            While European workers could actually afford it, they already understood that a car is not the most important thing to possess to be happy.

            Show me that Chinese factory worker that earns either of the cars (no lottery winner would continue working in a factory btw), and I buy you a BMW.

          • My_honourable_lord

            You forgot to add that factory workers in Europe are actually proud of their input which results in high quality products. They naturally reap the benefits which you outlined and yet do not see material gain as the sole goal.

            But this can’t be explained to Mr. Shoe. It’s incomprehensible to his mindset.

          • Stefan Xu

            I haven’t said Chinese factory workers were rich…
            But only a fraction of the Chinese are factory workers.
            I just said that the Chinese city dwellers who have a university degree can afford those cars…

            The inequality is huge in China, you’ve bunch of poor people but also bunch of rich people. I’m talking about the rich and they are growing larger as we speak. Most people with a big city hukou are quite well off, a majority at least.
            The problem is the migrant workers and they are the city’s poor underclass.

          • hess

            “I just said that the Chinese city dwellers who have a university degree can afford those cars…” The vast majority of the “city dwellers” with bachelor degrees could only dream about buying any of those cars in china

          • Stefan Xu

            Have you ever been to China? In the big cities about 80% of the cars are foreign. German and Japanese cars are the most popular. Premium cars actually cost more in China than in the west, yet I see bunch of those on the roads.

          • hess

            I lived in Shijiazhuang for two and a half years, got back to Sweden this August. “Premium cars actually cost more in China than in the west, yet I see bunch of those on the roads.” Because every single person who can, buys an expensive car in China. Imagine in Sweden if every single person able to buy a BMW did so, you’d see nothing but beamers on the roads. Also, how many e-bikes do you see on the road compared to premium cars? a fuckload more.

          • Stefan Xu

            Good point, haven’t thought about it before. Indeed a high percentage of people in Sweden could actually afford a premium car if they they really wanted. A crave for cars died out decades ago but China is right now going through the same period what the west through during 1950s-60s with the age of automobiles.

            Then after all Swedes are quite rich and have higher living standards compared to the Chinese.

          • nqk123

            Racism is everywhere, even in China. younger generation are becoming more and more diverse in the west and US. but china remain the same

          • Stefan Xu

            But if you look Chinese then will not experience racism based on your look at least. My future children will look Chinese and be very culturally Chinese so they will not experience any racism.

          • nqk123

            from what you wrote, I think the problem might be you. You live in another country but don’t follow their culture/custom. from their point of view: you are a foreigner. Also, if you raise your children aboard, I highly doubt your children will fully retain Chinese culture. I see it all the time in US, many of them are pretty much American kids.

          • Stefan Xu

            I grew up in Sweden and the racism I encountered was during my childhood because adults rarely racist out loud. The racism wasn’t about culture or anything like that. It was purely based on how I stood out as the only Asian kid in the whole school.

            Other then that I know all the customs and culture of Sweden and I’m not against it. When I was a kid I even celebrated Christmas.

            I wrote I wanted to raise my kids in China to begin with.

            Kids who lose their culture is largely because of the environment but also because of the parents not making effort. But the Asian Americans have still retained the core Asian values which are strong emphasis on higher education, career and family. That’s the most important.
            You can have the best of both world’s like what I have. The best from western culture and Asian culture combined is the best in my opinion, for example partying is not one the things I would bring up as the better western things.

          • Zappa Frank

            I don’t think you got the best of west if you think in this way..

          • Stefan Xu

            What of “best of the west” haven’t I gotten?

            I think Sweden has a higher living standard than Italy although both are developed.

          • TheSOP

            I think it explains why he forsook his fathers heritage and ran madly into the arms of Chinese nationalism, a reactionary decision influenced by his early childhood.

          • whuddyasack

            But it is his experience though, however painful it might be. At the very least, it’s clear he loves China and at least he doesn’t hate Sweden or London the same way certain foreigners in Asia hate the very countries they are in.

            I’m thankful I’ve never been a victim of racism or bullying but I know people who have been.

          • Germandude

            No, Chinese will call you a “banana” all the time behind your back. And so they will call your kids. They call you “banana” because they think you are yellow from the outside and white from the inside.
            Many will think far lower of you than of any white guy. Read the comments. “Chinese traitor” and such to get a basic idea of what you and your kids will face daily.

            Man, I honestly wish you the best of luck here and honestly hope that all will go as to your wishes. Stay ignorant, because then you’ll die happy.

          • Stefan Xu

            Firstly I’m not that traditional banana that completely has a western mindset. In China I adapt and try to blend into the society. I watch both Chinese and western movies and the same goes with music. Bananas are Asians who doesn’t even try learning their parents culture or language.

            I lived in China for two years and not a single person called me banana. Instead they were very surprised that I knew so much about China and Chinese culture.

            My kids will speak good English and be very westernized but it’s very unlikely they will be more western than me. They will also be very Chinese because of their mother.

            “Many will think far lower of you than of any white guy. Read the comments. “Chinese traitor” and such to get a basic idea of what you and your kids will face daily.”

            I didn’t understand what you meant here, could you please elaborate more on it?

          • Germandude

            Not a single person will call you that in your face, but it’s what is going on behind the scene. You will only notice it after some time.

            A white guy is a white guy in China. Everybody expects him to be different. You however are seen as one of “theirs” while you are not always 100% one of “theirs”. After time passes by, you will think that you are accustomed and 100% recognized, while what you think and how it is, are 2 very different things.

            “Instead they were very surprised that I knew so much about China and Chinese culture”

            Yes, and every 2nd girl you come across and tell that you hold a swedish passport, will call you handsome.

            Rock on fella.

          • Stefan Xu

            Look when I meet Chinese people always say I’m a half white/half Malaysian Chinese person from Sweden. Then they don’t expect me to be very Chinese as half Chinese are usually act entirely white.

            When they notice that I’m very Chinese and look very Chinese they’ll usually ask why I’m so Chinese.

            Girls are not attracted to passports since they know if they obtain a foreign passport they must quit their Chinese passport. If they quit their Chinese passport then it will be very hard to live permanently in China in the future or difficulties vising their relatives.

            And I’m actually pretty good looking by Chinese standards. hehe :)

          • Germandude

            All the best on your endeavours.

          • Zappa Frank

            ?? sorry I missed you… you’re half white? is it a way to say or really 混血?
            girls would like to go to live aborad more than anything else..

          • Stefan Xu

            Yes I’m 混血. My father is born in Sweden to German and Finnish parents. Mom is Malaysian Chinese.

          • Zappa Frank

            stefan, i understand you a lot more. but i’m afraid that in china you will always be a foreigner like me and germandude.. just to your family relatives you will not be a foreigner, but to all the rest of chinese people you will be, even if they don’t say it in face (and chinese never say what they think in face) expecially if your father is white.. However i fail in understanding why if you’re half and half you find yourslef more in china than in sweden.. i may figure out but i don’t think is the case to talk about this..

          • Stefan Xu

            Yes, Chinese still see me as a foreigner. But that’s only when I open my mouth, if I don’t say a word then they’ll just assume I’m Chinese. I rather them consider me a foreigner based on my software than my hardware.

            Actually I was very European and wannabe white up until maybe 3 years ago. During my whole childhood I always wanted to fit in but during my teenage years I realized everybody still saw me as “the Asian guy over there”. I also lost faith in the west because the economic crisis and read about the developments in China and I became very interested. Since I’m ethnically half Chinese I felt a connection sort of because of my familiarity of the culture due to my Mom.

            I gradually became really interested in China and became pro-China in everything.

            Since I almost look fully Chinese I didn’t feel like a visible minority anymore when I traveled there. For the first time in my life I could walk the streets without people noticing me.

            Then I moved there to study Mandarin and became very shaped of the society and became a wannabe mainlander in terms of appearance and fashion. I wanted to melt in as much as possible in other words. I rather be different in software than hardware.

            Now I’m back in Sweden doing my engineering degree.
            But I still like living in Sweden and Europe but the sense of belonging is very important to me. I would rather live in a western multi cultural country such as USA, Canada or Australia, and I plan to immigrate to one of those countries in the future. At least there I can relate to people with different background.

          • TheSOP

            If you have ethnic and political allegiances to China please don’t come to my country because the CCP is diametrically opposed to what America is all about. We don’t want more Linnettes.

            But it sounds more like you are having growing pains with identity issues. You may well look back on this from your mid-late-twenties and think what was I thinking! Especially after a few years in China in a non-University environment.

            I’m European mixed (White American) so I dont have the same issues you may be faced with, but if I do end up marrying my girlfriend we’ll have mixed kids of course so it is something I’m interested in.

          • Stefan Xu

            I really love the USA and the political and economical system. I’ve always liked it. It’s my goal to immigrate there in the future.
            Actually I don’t like the CCP and I hope they collapse some time in the future. They destroyed China, but sadly many things are irreversible.

            But for now since China isn’t developed to enough to take that transitioning it works great to develop and unite the country.

            I know China has tons of problems and life can be really crappy third-world backwards outside the big cities. When I traveled home from China to the west after one year of non stop in China I thought I’d come to a paradise.

            Mixed children have identity issues, if you have mixed Chinese kids in the future I recommend telling them early on that they are mixed so they don’t become wannabe white or Asian. Very important that they have also have in touch with their Chinese side like growing up learning Chinese travelling to China sometimes. t must be balanced.

          • TheSOP

            Yes I agree, people should be nurtured to appreciate and be proud of their backgrounds, but not be blinded or obsessive about them and also must be able to look critically at all of humanity including their ancestory. I think you will find your own balance with time…

          • TheSOP

            BTW I would encourage my kids to learn about Asia even if they were full white. I think Asia has a lot of lessons to offer the West, both positive and negative. My mind set has changed after living out here also, when I return to the US even I feel a bit of culture shock and find some typical American behaviors and characteristics of American society obnoxious and disappointing… this is life in the 21st century.

          • Zappa Frank

            that’s strange, usually hunxue look more white than chinese… ok. Anyway at your young age is normal that you want a place, a race, or a group to belong.. but later you may change your mind about to need a group to belong.

          • Stefan Xu

            My father looks eastern European so that would be a difference I guess. Eastern Europeans can have some ancient Asian blood from the Huns and the Mongols.

            But you know from mixed people, very unpredictable.

          • Gerhana

            There is nothing sadder than Asian trying to be white or black. it is good that you have decided to embrace your Asian root. Asian have rich history and culture.

            EDIT oh just realised youre half blood, do what you want then.

          • TheSOP

            Why do you have no affinity for your father’s ethnicity or culture? What made you swing so wildly to the China side? I suspect perhaps some reactionary pressures against people labeling you an Asian growing up?

          • Stefan Xu

            Actually I was very European and wannabe white up until maybe 3 years ago. During my whole childhood I always wanted to fit in but during my teenage years I realized everybody still saw me as “the Asian guy over there”. I also lost faith in the west because the economic crisis and read about the developments in China and I became very interested. Since I’m ethnically half Chinese I felt a connection sort of because of my familiarity of the culture due to my Mom.

            I gradually became really interested in China and became pro-China in everything.

            Since I almost look fully Chinese I didn’t feel like a visible minority anymore when I traveled there. For the first time in my life I could walk the streets without people noticing me.

            Then I moved there to study Mandarin and became very shaped of the society and became a wannabe mainlander in terms of appearance and fashion. I wanted to melt in as much as possible in other words.

            Now I’m back in Sweden doing my engineering degree.
            But I still like living in Sweden and Europe but the sense of belonging is very important to me. I would rather live in a western multi cultural country such as USA, Canada or Australia, and I plan to immigrate to one of those countries in the future. At least there I can relate to people with different background.

          • TheSOP

            Yes, I think Northern Europe is much more mono-racial than America. I think you would have thicker skin and more confidence in your self instead of your ethnicity if you’d grown up on the West coast of the US or something. But you are letting other people drive your identity by what you are saying (which to a degree is inevitable)

          • whuddyasack

            “Yes, and every 2nd girl you come across and tell that you hold a swedish passport”

            I didn’t realize that a Swedish passport was that desirable amongst Chinese especially considering most don’t even know about Sweden or where it’s located. The main places of immigration for Chinese don’t really include many European countries, but then again, it’s not really anything against Europe. Most just don’t realize or consider that Europe is open for immigration (which it isn’t and shouldn’t).

          • hess

            Europe isnt open for immigration? are you joking? take a look at sweden, germany, france, holland and so on

          • whuddyasack

            I think you misunderstand. What I’m saying is that in the eyes of most Chinese, Europe isn’t an ideal continent for immigration the same way they view North America, Oceania and parts of Asia like Singapore, Taiwan or even Japan as places to immigrate to.

            When I say that Europe isn’t open for immigration, I meant that it shouldn’t be. Those race riots flaring up that part of the world are a good reason why European countries should be very careful with immigrants. I might sound like a bigot but I just don’t like conflict, of any kind.

          • Germandude

            If it was up to me, more Asians should immigrate to Europe. In fact, the one thing that Europe should do is to attract foreigners to come, while setting up a system like Canada. You know, Europe should attract those foreigners that are qualified, willing to work and that can bring knowledge into the mix.
            If it was up to me, speaking German should not be a requirement to immigrate to Germany as long as such an immigrant can handle his work life and his private life. Many Germans speak English and the rest communication can be done in Germany. Luckily, the politicians slowly awake from their 70-80s kind of thinking on restricting immigration of the right people.

          • whuddyasack

            Regarding Chinese immigration to Europe, it’s actually something that I’ve been doing a little research on and I’ve always wanted to speak to more Chinese from that region. Very difficult because they are so rare, but from the few that i have spoken to, they seem to have been there for a very long time, and are pretty much assimilated in nearly everything but ethnicity and physical features. Which is why what Stefan says does interest me.

            I’d agree that highly educated, wealthier, law abiding, loyal and diligent Asians would prove to be very successful immigrants provided they do so legally. In fact, just the last three criteria alone is usually more than enough.

            However, in saying that, I wonder if it really would turn out for the better to have many more new immigrants in Europe. It’s your home land, I can fully understand that. What I’d love is that someday, China and the Chinese would be able to eliminate their poverty and improve their living standards in such a way that they no longer want to emigrate. In the same way Japanese don’t. They won’t have to deal with attacks from a petty, irrational, tribal and small-minded few any more. Yes, two special incidents in my life made me realize that I am actually quite protective of Asians overseas.

            I think there’s another issue in Europe.

            http://www.rense.com/general59/shot.htm

            Anyways, the Chinese diaspora I am looking at most right now is the Danish Chinese community. Although there are some issues (Fuat Yalan), overall I think the Danish get along fairly well with each other. With a population of 1300, it was just a little more than a year ago that they celebrated their first Chinese Culture Day (pictures and links below).

            For the first time they got a glimpse of the culture in China through Chinese students. I think such things are always magical and eye opening. I’m quite the supporter of learning about other cultures through exchange programs. I was touched that the Chinese-Danes referred to themselves simply as Danes. Showed how much they were accepted by the people of Denmark and how they too accepted Denmark as their country and fellow Danish as their people. They knew that the culture of those 100 children from China was once their own, buried in the memories of their forefathers. They now live with new identities and have a new country.

            http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-08/03/c_112615035.htm

          • Germandude

            Well I agree with you. Europe should focus on controlling immigration and implement a system pretty similar to the one that Canada, the US or Australia have.
            Just check the people coming in on their abilities. Any foreigner who has sth to bring to the mix should come in. If you are educated and are willing to work, Europe should welcome you. Connect that with a 5 year period on which immigrants cannot receive social welfare, while the government helps them (with language courses for example) to get accustomed in the new country.
            Currently, Europe mainly attracts those immigrants that come to escape from home to receive social benefits because with that they are better off than where they come from.
            What Europe is currently failing on is discussing if crosses in classrooms are insulting muslim students. If traffic signs in Europe cities should also be written in Arabic because in some city’s, there are neighborhoods where nobody is able to read/speak or write the local language.
            Europe is currently building a society within the society and that’s just wrong. Foreigners should be welcomed and supported but also selected. The current system is attracting foreigners with the false intentions and then drops them like hot potatoes.

            And in my eyes, the best performaning immigrants that are not European (for them it’s actually easy to move within the EU), are the Asians. Never heard of any big trouble caused by Chinese immigrants (except cooks that are hired without paying taxes, the illegal employment of workers in Italian textile industry). However, Chinese immigrants don’t disproportionally exploit the social welfare system, don’t commit serious crimes, are not involved in drug trade etc. Same goes for Vietnames, Japanese, Korean etc.

            Now compare that to immigrants from the middle east and it is easy to understand while asian immigrants are welcomed.
            Zappa Frank is from Italy, he might share my opinion or might disagree. I understand Italy has some problems with Chinese immigrants, but I am not really familiar with that.

          • Zappa Frank

            you’re talking about the events in Prato I guess. Actually in Italy people don’t have exactly a good vision of Chinese people that live in italy (on the other side Italians have a completely different vision of Koreans and Japanese), although we cannot generalize, it’s up to which place we’re talking about…(for sure they don’t have in Prato)
            There are some problems with Chinese people in Italy, it may be because chinese people in Italy are almost all from the countryside near Wenzhou (I was told they are peculiars..am I right?) with habits that are like migrant workers in cities and it can be also because Italians are Italians with all their limits.. I guess both.
            In Prato a factory burned because of lack of security, as result 7 Chinese that were living there, died (yes they were living inside the factory). What is maybe not known to most is that factories like that one (“bed&factory” were people pass the whole day working, sleeping and cooking meals) are the standard when we talk about a Chinese factory in Italy (better say factory with Chinese owners), immigrants are almost all irregulars, they live in a sort of slavery self imposed…working 17h/day for few euros. Indeed it’s not just a problem for Chinese, because in this way, with this “unfair” competition, many others Italians factories had to close, besides every euro gained by Chinese is usually lost because sent to china and not spent in Italy, not talking about tax evasion that is almost total… Controls of authorities were till now almost useless, on one side because chinese open and close their factory within few days and where easy to vanish.. on the other side due to corruption that in Italy indeed is a problem and Chinese know how to use it. Besides Chinese are actually the last community for integration, with many that don’t even speak the language (most just speak their dialect) and live in a sort of Chinatowns, avoiding any contact with Italians people, and so on. Of course 2generation are slowly changing, but I think for some real change will have to wait third or probably forth generations…the problem is cultural because for habits and behavior I think no one is more distant than a Chinese and an Italian, Italians do not like introverts people…most Chinese in italy are in this way, but if someone is not than it’s easy for him to be involved in Italian life..there are indeed some points in common but are nothing to be proud of (corruption, and so on..Berlusconi would be a perfect Chinese official). Strange enough sometimes (for my experience) Chinese students arrived from china can integrate with Italians better than Chinese immigrants, because they don’t have that mindset and family control and influence that would like them to avoid to have Italians friends and so on.. that’s just my point of view, I cannot is the truth, but I find strange that all Chinese friends in Italy I have are not immigrants..

          • Germandude

            Thanks mate.

          • Germandude

            Chinese immigrants to Sweden are TOP 15 of all immigrants to Sweden.
            If he says he is from Europe, odds will change that what I said was right.

          • whuddyasack

            Interesting, that’s a surprising figure. But what I meant was that on China’s side of things, Sweden isn’t one of the main destination points. Sweden and much of Europe being not so ideal a place for immigration is not because that Chinese immigrants think those places have poor living standards or don’t want to go there, but it’s more a lack of awareness to these things.

            It is kind of unfortunate, and I’m not saying this to insult Chinese or Europe but for most Chinese, they can’t seem to see the bigger picture. It’s probably due to education norms and most seem more aware of distant Southeast Asian countries than countries like Latvia, Luxembourg or Estonia.

            The only countries that seem to be on their radar are English or Chinese speaking ones and Japan of course. It kind of shows based on their main emmigration countries, Singapore, Taiwan, HK, Macau, the US, the UK, Canada, Australia.

            Well, perhaps you might be right that they are only interested in Stefan’s European/Swedish passport, but in my experience and to my knowledge the Chinese that are after foreign passports tend to go for White guys and see all of them as American, British, or possibly German or French.

            Let’s say it wasn’t his good looks that won them over (although I’m sure he’s very handsome). I’d still think that when he tells them he is from Sweden which is a part of Europe, they are thinking America, Britain or Germany.

          • whuddyasack

            You know something? Your own experiences are what really matters, not the opinions of others. I think the differences between what you experienced and what the others experience is due to generation gaps, and nothing else.

            You see, you’re noticeably younger than most of the Chinasmack commentators. So of course there will be differences. No two generations are the same.

            Like you, I was surprised at all the differences in perceptions and experiences amongst Chinese people, but I know see that most Chinese I meet are students like myself and those I’ve known from visits or friends online. For example, nationalistic and a desire for revenge vis a vis the Japanese are two comments that are used as stereotypes about ALL Chinese. My experiences have been different, most could hardly give a damn about these political issues and find WW2 history kind of boring but anime is cool(which is sad, as history is something that should be learned and used to improve oneself). Needless to say, most get along very, very well with other Asians.

            I agree with you about Chinese uniting and sticking together and even extending friendship to other Asians especially the Japanese instead of antagonizing them is a strength and blessing. Not a curse. Chinese need to boost and spread their caring for their fellow person and many, many are already doing this.

            Have you watched the Inn of the Sixth Happiness?
            Or the Joy Luck Club?

            They are very good watches and I think you can relate to some characters there. I know of a Scott/Inuit girl who drew inspiration from one of the characters in the Joy Luck Club because when she set foot in her ancestral homeland, she felt that connection.

            I think in your case, every time you walk on Chinese soil or mingle with Chinese people, you feel that invisible bond, that connection. It is the same with me, every time when I visited there although my experience with China’s rural poor really changed my perspective of things and filled me with things I never knew I had. It made me a better person methinks.

            BTW, you can be very Swedish yet embrace your ethnic heritage at the same time. There’s nothing wrong with that since Italians, Greeks and Spanish all do the same.

          • hess

            good riddance

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ah! You appear at last! I have seen your up votes but rarely see you comment! Greetings!

          • hess

            ahoy mate

          • My_honourable_lord

            Ahoy! This ship is listing with all these 50 centers on the prowl!

          • hess

            worse, not wumaos, just retards

          • My_honourable_lord

            Sigh…again…sigh….yup.

          • TheSOP

            By all means GTFO as soon as possible, you are neither needed nor wanted in the West.

          • My_honourable_lord

            I’m always seen as a immigrant in some way based on how I look. AND HOW I THINK.

            You said you are 21? You sound 12.

          • Stefan Xu

            Why would you think so?
            Based on my comment above about that all Chinese should unite?

          • My_honourable_lord

            Based on your rather lonely braincell.

          • Stefan Xu

            I’m just trying to defend China on this site. Every force needs a counter force.
            What I have written doesn’t necessarily represent my personal views.

          • My_honourable_lord

            ‘What I have written doesn’t necessarily represent my personal views.’

            WTFFFFFFFFFFF?

          • Germandude

            aka trolling

          • whuddyasack

            That’s sad and I can understand how negative an experience that must have been. You do raise a good point though.

            But did you try cheering for the Swedish team in sports? Even once? I think a good way to gain acceptance is to take part and do things that fellow compatriots usually enjoy doing. Of course, I might be just overly optimistic and this doesn’t work in real life and that Swedish people might actually be just that small-minded.

            It’s sad, this perpetual foreigner concept. It’s the same in America and Canada though, and you could say it’s the same in Japan or China. But there are differences of course. The difference is that Asians born and raised in the West are actually citizens of those countries while expat workers in Asia are simply expat workers and thus foreign. I find these differences are largely ignored when people grumble about discrimination in the East.

          • Stefan Xu

            When I was a kid a cheered for Sweden and was very wannabe Swedish but it gradually faded away during my teenage years when I discovered my Asian side.

          • whuddyasack

            I see, that’s refreshing. When I was a kid, I cheered the country I was born in a lot and still love the vast, open spaces, the wild life, the native culture and the beautiful people there. I also made many lifelong friends there of all races. I still shout hurrah whenever we do make an achievement however small and grin from ear-to-ear whenever we get an award for high living standards. Although my new country also contests this award every year and seems to be on the winning side more often than not. Dangit lol. I can’t choose sometimes but if I had to pick, I would pick the country that I actually stay in haha.

            But yes, perhaps it was naivete speaking, about my love for my “home” country. Most Chinese are just naive that way. I don’t mean that as a criticism, but I wished many would be less trusting. Most Chinese just aren’t street smart to know the actual dangers of Western society and the high incidence of street violence and random brawlings.
            Overall, I actually find I enjoy Asian company more than any other a few native Americans being the only exception. Then again, there is a saying. We’re all the same race and related. Somehow :-)

    • nqk123

      1.3 billion is China biggest problem. foods, water, energy, etc. your nation is big with lots resources, but for how long

    • TheSOP

      I hope you return to China, a racist person of such low morale stature as yourself has no place in the West.

      • Stefan Xu

        I am not racist, I don’t hate non-Chinese people. I enjoy other cultures and have no hatred what so ever. I haven’t said anything that I hate the west or westerners. Come on.

        What’s the problem if Chinese unite? Isn’t it the same when Jews unite and immigrate to Israel?

        I don’t view myself as having low morale, actually the opposite is the truth.

        • TheSOP

          Was it a problem when Germans united and took irridentist territorial claims? Was it a problem when the Japanese united in the 1930s to assert their national leadership in Asia and drive out the Western imperialists and liberate their fellow Asians? You are playing with fire, you should know that. There is a big difference between feeling an affinity for your ancestral culture and participating ethno-chauvinism. The latter usually leads to wars and conflict.

        • David S.

          It just would be a rather poor tribute to the human spirit if the Chinese united under the banner of the CCP.

  • vonskippy

    “China has a population of 1.3 billion…

    There also 50 million Chinese comrades over the world”

    So beside showing the world that Chinese breeds like rodents, what does that have to do with Military might?

    China might have stolen the military IP of the States and Russia, but it doesn’t understand it like the people who INVENTED it.

    For many decades to come, China would get spanked hard and fast if they try to show off their shiny new (and stolen and built by Chinese “engineers” – lol) military toys.

    The reason that the US recommend that it’s international civilian flights go along with the stupid overfly rules is the same reason you tell a young child their finger painting “looks good honey”. It’s just poor taste to kick the young or weak or stupid when they’re trying to look “all grown up”.

  • stevelaudig

    Compare which government [USG or PRC] has invaded more countries since 1949. Count the number of dead from the invasions. The USG is an aggressor country whose leaders almost always commit war crimes. The end of the US empire is in sight. The US has no legitimate interests in doing these provocative things. The US political structure is controlled by weapons manufacturers [GE declare George W president and was rewarded with a war.] Most Americans are more concerned about the quality of their schools than what China is doing this is a ploy. Last years presidential campaign was very expensive and wars are effective ways to pay back campaign bribes errr contributions. Obama’s failed rollout of Obamacare calls for a foreign crisis to divert attention from his failing presidency. The smart play is for China to ignore the juvenile taunts and continue to quietly keep doing what it is doing which is peacefully helping Africa develop economically. the US is pretty good at demolishing things, not so good at building.

    • vonskippy

      Hogwash. China is raping Africa of any useful resource, and will discard them like a used tampon after the resources are depleted.

      This ploy in the East China Sea is nothing but China stamping it’s teeny tiny feet and saying “look at me, I’m the boss here”. Neither their Asian neighbors or the rest of the world are impressed or intimidated.

      Somewhat like the States, the Chinese government is rattling their tiny fists to quell their internal civilian uprising. The newly found nouveau riche Chinese are getting scared that all of their ill earned riches will be pissed away by their worthless government – best give them some “national pride” to worry about instead.

      • Jobjed

        Here’s the difference between how China gets its resources and how the USA gets its resources. China builds schools, railways, ports and gives cold hard cash in exchange for resources. The USA effects a regime change in the target nation leaving it in as shitty a state as before and then leeches all the resources. Don’t pretend the USA has the moral high ground; the native Americans are still waiting on getting their land back.

  • Marcus Black

    The Dareyou Islands are mine. I dare you to claim otherwise.

    • linette lee

      Maybe UN can just take Diaoyu and listed as environmental preservation or whatever they call it. That means Japan and China can’t touch the island. But both nations can fish in those water. And China should seriously start buying lands in all those carribean islands around USA to start building military base in case USA threaten China with military force. USA is setting up military base to contain China. China should do the same. There should be balance in these two world power.

      • Lord_Helmet

        Go under your kitchen sink and find a bottle labeled Drano. Drink the whole thing. Thank you.

        • linette lee

          hahahahaha…….lol.
          You feel the pain right? You don’t want to see China do that to USA. Just like I don’t want to see USA do that to China.

          How about just peace. USA should stop this economy and military containment of China. Stop flaming war. China should work harder to maintain peace with its neighbors and do more trading with them to benefit the Asia economy.

          USA was in cold war with Russia. Now they are in cold war with China. What a shame.

          • Zappa Frank

            A yes US should trade to benefit Asian economies, of course, philanthropy is the corse of business.

          • TheSOP

            China should stop invading its neighbors and stealing their lands and seas then there would be no need for an American military presence. China should also stop supporting aggressive military dictatorships like DPRK. There are very good and legitimate reasons the US has a large military presence in the region, if you werent such a brainwashed troll you could see that.

        • My_honourable_lord

          She already has. That’s what caused the mess in the first place.

      • Zappa Frank

        Cccp tried and we saw what happened. You fail thinking US and China can have a relation as if they are on the same level…

    • Jay K.

      All your base belong to us!

  • David S.

    It’s nationalist propaganda, and so is “all foreigners trying to carve China up like it’s the Qing dynasty”.by the way.

    The only reason people care about the Diaoyu islands is because it would be so abysmaly stupid for China and Japan to fight over these (and other stupid shit) that the rest of the world would find it painful to watch.

    We’re all the same specie here, please don’t be such an embarrassment.

  • linette lee

    You are taiwanese. Do you think your gov’t Taiwan will help USA, Japan, Philippine, and all the other hostile nations to attack China with military weapons?

  • linette lee

    “Japan never, to my knowledge, consulted with China when it declared its own ADIZ. Why, then, would China consult with Japan?”

    Amen.

  • Tiny Tim

    Actually, I have heard of them … I know more about them than you realize I do.

  • linette lee

    Are you for real? If TheSop is president he will order massacre of the Chinese race. Haven’t you read some of his 3000 words posts here. Every post is about how to defect China or ask people from other nations to fight Chinese and must hate Chinese. He is after one thing. Chinese blood. He is very violent. He has psychological problem. He is hiding behind the keyboard and don’t give much information about himself. Not even his photo in avatar. TheSop is here on CS spreading antiChina propaganda. No matter what topic or article he is here pushing to attack China and hurt Chinese people. Even topic on that pink t shirt rappist he is busy talking about attacking China and Chinese in his 3000 words posts.

    • TheSOP

      You keep making unfounded statements. I want to massacre Chinese people? What kind of retarded shit are you packing between your two ears? I have ethnic Chinese friends and classmates in the US, China, Taiwan, and elsewhere abroad. I oppose Chinese imperialism and hegemony which is the current policy of the PRC government, and I also oppose the vitriol and hypernationalism, and Sino-centrism/chauvinism which has infected mainland Chinese thinking to a large degree in the past 10 years. I love East Asia, I’ve been out here for well over a decade and this region will be part of my life as long as I am alive, and developments negative and positive in the region will impact my home country the United States. I have an interest in how East Asia develops, and I sure as hell wont sit back quietly as Chinese imperialism drives the region into conflict, and nobody with a conscious or a love of the region should support Chinese imperialism and revisionism, no if ands or buts.

      Quit talking shit and making gross accusations, you have already demonstrated your own extreme ethnic bias on this board, you continue proving that you are someone who cannot be taken seriously.

      • linette lee

        What kind of retarded shxt are you? Every articles on Chinasmack you are spreading anti Chinese propaganda, even on the articles that has nothing to do with disputes between China and other nations. You call all nations like those south east asia countries to hate Chinese even when the article is not about dispute. Every single one of your post. Are you a retard? The normal chinese folks living in SEA are not China gov’t officials. They are not bothering anybody. Go read your own post or do I need to repost all of them over here to prove you are a sicko. You are nothing but a psycho seeking for attention. Go get a life you loser. Both you and Germandude. Only Germandude would take you seriously. Every single one of your post is about hate to China and Chinese.
        How about you don’t chat here anymore. What’s the point when you possess such extreme hatred toward Chinese and China, but yet you want to know everything about China. What a loser.
        What are you? Are you American? Are you white or black? Give me some of your back ground so I can try to understand why you are so psychotic against Chinese people.

      • linette lee

        You are not only a psychotic sicko, I see you are a liar also. I was asking how would USA feel if China drop two A bombs into USA and justify it by saying they just want to save lives and end the war quickly. That’s the excuse USA used to drop those two A bombs into Japan. I did not say China needs to nuke USA.

        So you are a LIAR,a racist, psycho and sicko and have reading comprehension problem. What else.

        • Germandude

          http://www.ushistory.org/us/51g.asp

          After the life-expensive “island hopping” with thousands dead on both sides, a long-time war in the back and the knowledge that Stalin won’t be the friend to everyone as assumed, there were 2 options:

          Invading Japan, who had approx. 2 million army forces stationed on Japan’s land and through Kamikaze attacks and mass suicides in liberated villages have shown that they are willing to fight to death.

          Or option 2: Dropping the bombs and make it clear that they lost the war, but giving them the choice to surrender.

          As ugly as it sounds. Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved a lot of lives.

          But why even talking? You are arguing based on “things you heard”, rather than on facts. So I don’t understand why you call TheSOP a liar when you don’t even understand his words. I cannot comment on him being a psychotic sicko, but I am pretty sure most of the commenters here would call you one.

          • linette lee

            You don’t find TheSop sicko and psychotic. Every 3000 words post of his here in CS is urging people from other nations to hate China and Chinese. He urge USA and the rest of the world to go to war with China. He goes off saying he is American the and the reason USA wants war with China is because USA is the defender of the Universe. You shouldn’t be so happy to hear him and the rest of USA war supporters. USA spend billions to set up military base surrounding China and as we speak they are sending more ships to Pacific pouring more money into defense to contain China military and economy expansion. Don’t be surprised if some wacko press a button and a bomb land on Beijing. You are inside China simpleton.

          • Germandude

            Unlike you, I understand that the US won’t drop the bomb on China as much as China won’t drop the bomb on the US.
            The US is sending forces over to show China that they should not try to change the status-quo with bullying its weaker (military wise) neighbors.

            TheSOP does NOT suggest to hate China. He rightfully criticizes the Chinese government’s efforts on spreading nationalism and to become a bully just like Nazi-Germany and The Empire of Japan once was. Now you might want to check history and see the corelations, or you want to continue taking a bath in the shit you are spilling out.

            Either way, you are a simpleton because you cannot understand the problems of the present and the past, are not educated in the topic, but are spreading your bullshit day in, day out. All that, while happily enjoying the benefits of living in the country that you despise so much.
            A true patriot, a true simpleton, a true idiot. linette lee

          • My_honourable_lord

            Looks like someone pressed a button and your ranting is the result.

          • linette lee

            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/25/pentagon-china-missiles-bombers/3665219/

            Pentagon builds forces in Pacific, eyes China

            WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is fortifying bases in the Pacific and looking to revive World War II-era air bases as part of an effort to survive a Chinese missile attack that could wipe out critical installations on Okinawa and elsewhere, military records, interviews and congressional testimony show.

            The strategy indicates the evolution of the administration’s shift toward Asia, which includes the creation of a growing base in northern Australia. Chinese missiles have been a preoccupation of Pentagon planners who worry they could be used as a threat to deny access to the region by U.S. ships, planes and troops.

            Chinese ballistic missiles — termed anti-access, area denial weapons — mean that virtually every U.S. base in the Pacific is under “heavy threat,” said Michael Lostumbo, director of the RAND Center for Asia Pacific Study. A RAND report found that 90% of the bases were within 1,080 nautical miles of China, the distance it defined as being under heavy threat.

            “We compared threats in the Pacific region with other regions,” Lostumbo said. “The Pacific bases are all under threat if you are considering Chinese ballistic missiles.”

            RAND identified three options for dealing with the threat: moving bases out of missile range, hardening aircraft hangars and dispersing aircraft to limit the damage any one attack could exact.

            Pentagon strategists are re-examining bases such as Kadena on Okinawa because its proximity to China makes it particularly vulnerable, a senior officer said. The other reason to explore options, according to another senior officer, is to disrupt planning by the Chinese military and keep it guessing. Both officers spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

            Among recent developments with U.S. forces in Asia:

            •Darwin, Australia. The Marine Corps is beefing up its presence. The first deployment of 200 Marines occurred last year. The goal, says Capt. Eric Flanagan, a Marine spokesman, is to rotate as many as 2,500 Marines to the base as part of an air-ground task force.

            “This rotational basis allows for Marines to be present in the region without large basing requirements,” Flanagan said in an e-mail. “We won’t need big mess halls, exchanges or other military base comforts, lessening the cost of having Marines in the region.”

            •Guam. Since 2000, the Pentagon has been bolstering forces on the westernmost U.S. territory, according to the Congressional Research Service. About 8,000 Marines based on Okinawa are slated to move there. The buildup and regular military exercises concern the Chinese, the service said in a report dated Nov. 15. The island has two important U.S. bases: Apra for the Navy and Andersen for the Air Force.

            For the Pentagon, a key concern on Guam is an attack by Chinese or North Korean missiles, the report says. That is reflected in requests for hundreds of millions of dollars to fortify fuel bunkers and airplane hangars. The Air Force seeks a “hardened facility” for its bombers, cargo and tankers. The hangar would have a concrete roof and walls with a thickness of 3½ feet, according to budget documents.

            Air Force Chief of Staff Mark Welsh told Congress this month that the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific has asked for the protection in the event of a missile attack. Welsh put the cost at $256 million for the new fortifications.

            “The hardened facilities on Guam are in response to a combatant commander request to provide more resilient capability on Guam because of an increased threat of surface-to-surface missile attack,” Welsh said. “He didn’t request that everything be hardened, just those things that are key facilities that you couldn’t improvise if there was damage.”

            •Tinian and Saipan. Two islands in the North Pacific, U.S. territory not far from Guam, could be candidates for dispersing aircraft among a number of bases, according to the Pentagon. The Air Force seeks more than $115 million to build infrastructure on Saipan. The intent, according to budget documents, is to use the island for exercises and as emergency landing strips in case of bad weather.

            The islands have long held strategic importance to the U.S. military. In World War II, American troops seized them from Japanese forces in 1944 and set up a sprawling base on Tinian for B-29 bombers to strike Japan. The Enola Gay and Bock’s Car flew from Tinian in August 1945 to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

          • Germandude

            Are you actually reading AND (more important) understanding what you are posting?

          • My_honourable_lord

            No.

          • TheSOP

            顶, 支持!

          • TheSOP

            顶, 支持!First rational thing you’ve posted!

          • Germandude

            Copy-pasted and uncommented. The only way you don’t get bullshit out of her.

          • linette lee

            I see you and My_honourable_lord are so happy and excited that USA is pouring money into defense sending more military weapons to pacific regions. You two USA war supporters must be jumping in joy waiting to see East Asia turning into a waste land just like middle east. The so-called USA beefing up military defense against China’s military missiles. Now the question is, why would China have missiles aiming at all the USA military base regions if USA didn’t station there at the first place. China sees that as a threat and aggression from USA threatening to launch missiles from those regions to dissipate Beijing. USA and China are aiming missiles at each other. And the other small countries like Philippine, South korea, and Japan are risking being bombed because China needs to destroy the USA military bases to protect Beijing. USA of course will just like usual do their “hey, I am defending world peace and that is why I need to set up all these military bases far away from my country USA.”

            You two and the rest of USA war supporters can go have joy and excitedly waiting to watch a firework show in East Asia. Good for you that you two love it.

          • My_honourable_lord

            I acknowledge you accepting me as your Honourable Lord. Fetch my pipe.

          • My_honourable_lord

            Linette, what would you do if i said i am british born chinese with parents from hong kong?

          • linette lee

            That explains why you know nothing about how USA gov’t spends tax payer money on defense wasting on middle east now on Asia. Those are the rich USA politicians and billionaires the 1% who control USA economy. I thought you are American taxpayer, but you are not. So you have no right to tell me how I should feel about USA gov’t spending my tax dollars.

          • My_honourable_lord

            I was just joking. Not chinese of any description. I knew you would go nuts.

            Btw, what is the percentage of the billionaires of china who control china’s economy?

          • My_honourable_lord

            If the USA wasn’t there dumdum, china would be rampaging across asia. Everyone except you can see this.

            But then again, you would don your commie suit at moments notice to join the chinese army and bash a few heads against the wall given the opportunity. You, are a threat. I’d be careful if i were you, if you really are in america, you are a threat to US security.

            Think this over for a moment.

          • TheSOP

            China only NEEDS to do one thing; stand down and stop acting like a belligerent imperialist. America and her allies in Asia are her to stay, get used to it. Asians support it, and oppose Chinese bullying.

          • TheSOP

            We are anti-war, anyonewho supports PRC expansionism and belligerence is the pro-war pro-imperialism party. Thats you little honey.

          • TheSOP

            Here is some more good news, keeping Chinese aggression in check:

            (Reuters) – The U.S. Navy’s first advanced P-8 Poseidon patrol aircraft has arrived in Japan, the start of a deployment that will upgrade America’s ability to hunt submarines and other vessels in seas close to China as tension in the region mounts.

            The deployment, planned before China last month established an air defense zone covering islands controlled by Japan and claimed by Beijing, includes six aircraft to be delivered to Kadena air base on Okinawa this month.

            The first arrived on Sunday, a spokesman for the U.S. Navy told Reuters. The mission in the waters west of Japan’s main islands will be the new aircraft’s first anywhere.

            The jet, built by Boeing Co based on its 737 passenger plane, has been built to replace the aging propeller-powered Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion patrol aircraft, which has been in service for 50 years.

            Packed with the latest radar equipment and armed with torpedoes and anti-ship missiles, the P-8 is able to fly further and stay out on mission longer than the P-3.

            The arrival of the P-8 came a day before U.S. Vice President Joe Biden is due to arrive in Tokyo, a visit that is being overshadowed by the territorial spat in the East China Sea between Japan and China.

            While taking no position on the sovereignty of the islands known to the Japanese as the Senkakus and to the Chinese as the Daioyu, it does recognize Japanese control and therefore part of territory it would defend under a security pact with Japan.

            (Reporting by Tim Kelly; Editing by Nick Macfie)

          • My_honourable_lord

            OOOOH! That should cause some knee buckling and sweaty brows.

        • TheSOP

          Whatever…. you have some real issues.

        • DearDairy

          =(********

    • My_honourable_lord

      Linette if anyone here is baying for blood it is you.

      TheSOP, don’t listen to this wretch.

      • TheSOP

        Yea she is calling for the US and our Asian allies to be nuked if we interfere in China’s expansionist project… but being a complete and utter hypocrite seems to be second nature to her, as greedily clutches an American passport while calling for the destruction of the country that has taken her in as one of its own.

        • My_honourable_lord

          And in doing so, by default, she gives licence to other radical groups who, while enjoying the benefits of western states, secretly pray for or, actively engage in activities of explosive nature. Treachery would be a proper way to describe lunette. Treason would be the legal definition.

      • linette lee

        you are another racist liar who have reading comprehension problem. Go reread all my post here. I was the one calling for peace and no war in Asia while you and Thesop and many other non Chinese bloggers here keep flaming USA to lead the military attack and rage war against China. What a bunch of sad pussy liars here on CS.

        • My_honourable_lord

          You honestly think, (well actually you don’t think) that America is reading this comment section and is planning its war strategy based on our comments? The Pentagon planners and the politicians in Washington aren’t like the communist party of china. Learn the difference. Silly girl.

    • My_honourable_lord

      Lunette lunette…he doesn’t want to massacre anyone. If he were president, he might well want you locked in a padded room with your mouth taped shut.

  • TheSOP

    Thats bollocks, the Chinese media has come out and directly said this is aimed at Japan and China is prepared to trigger a conflict to teach Japan a lesson. And you say the Western media is hysterical? Either you are simple minded or simply an apologist for PRC thuggery, or most likely a mixture of both.

    • My_honourable_lord

      Btw, yes. To your question earlier:-) Good to see ya again:-)

  • Tiny Tim

    Like learning to drive properly? Not eating with your mouth open? Learning it is not right to urinate on subway trains? Is that what you mean of brilliance?

    • Jobjed

      This is the part where people start spewing insults instead of giving constructive criticism. Let’s start analysing your comments.

      1. “Like learning to drive properly”. There are no statistics that show Asian drivers are involved disproportionately in car accidents.

      2. “Not eating with your mouth open”. Insulting cultural norms is dead giveaway of bigoted racism. Westerners also consider slurping soup to be rude and yet it is considered a sign of respect in Japan.

      3. “Urinate on subway trains”. Somehow a minuscule portion of a nation’s population defines how every member of the nation acts. Yeah, very nice logic there. Using the same logic, all Americans are human meatballs who can’t traverse one aisle of Walmart and must all use mobility scooters.

      • Tiny Tim

        It is obvious my enthusiasm has caught your attention on this subject. Since you offered your so-called constructive feed-back, I will too. You said that there was no statistics to back up my claim that Asian drivers disproportionately cause more accidents, your simplistic logic fails you again…

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

        Secondly, “Not eating with your mouth open” reference to the Japanese is irrelevant. The statement is about your conduct outside of China…I could care less what you do in China. It is your conduct amongst others in another country, respecting the local community and customs. It is obvious you don’t give a damn about others especially outside of your country, when you are a visitor there.

        Thirdly, in reference to urinating in subway…Please enlighten me on your definition of “minuscule portion of a nation’s population?” Does that make it acceptable by your majority?..I don’t think any of your definition minuscule portion of the population regardless of race or color in the western world would deem urinating in public deemed as “acceptable” or maybe its a regular thing you do?

        Please enjoy your 50 cents you earned today, it was fun…

        • Alex Dương

          Wow, netouyos are even dumber than I thought. India and China are the two largest countries by population, so does it surprise you that they have the most total fatalities for traffic-related deaths? You have to scale by something to get a measure that’s comparable across countries. Scaled by population, Eritrea is the worst; and scaled by motor vehicles, Togo is the worst. China isn’t anywhere near the top ten in either metric.

          • Jobjed

            He probably didn’t finish elementary school. That’ll explain his lack of common sense and mathematical calculation skills.

          • Guest

            Uhm, sorry to burst your superiority bubble, Alex and Jobjed, but that
            list does show relative numbers. And according to those, China is snugly
            positioned between other undeveloped countries, above the world’s
            average (20 vs 18 per 100k population), and far from the developed
            countries. Add to that that in the First World the number of cars per
            capita is much higher.

            I know what driving lessons in China are like. They are a joke. I have driven in China and know how traffic is like. Suicidal.

            Then
            again, how can you blame them? A corrupt official racing his A6 to meet
            his semi-prostitute lover, gets distracted from a cough attack on the
            winter smog, and fails to see the young girl dressed in 80s grandma
            clothes who was just typing on her fake-iphone to her fellow
            failed-childhood friends.

            China hasn’t improved in the past 5
            years. Every time I need to go there I hope it’ll be the last time, and
            once I’m there and couch my first blood, I fear it’ll be the last time.

          • That’s marvelous

            Oh, sorry to burst your superiority bubble, but that list does show relative numbers. And according to those, China is snugly positioned between other undeveloped countries, above the world’s average (20 vs 18 per 100k population), and far from the developed countries. Add to that that in the First World the number of cars per capita is much higher.

            I know what driving lessons in China are like. They are a joke. I have driven in China and know how traffic is like. Suicidal.

            Then again, how can you blame them? A corrupt official racing his A6 to meet his semi-prostitute lover, gets distracted from a cough attack on the winter smog, and fails to see the young girl dressed in 80s grandma clothes who was just typing on her fake-iphone to her fellow failed-childhood friends.

            China hasn’t improved in the past 7 years. Every time I need to go there I hope it’ll be the last time, and once I’m there and couch my first blood, I fear it’ll be the last time.

          • Alex Dương

            OK, so you’ve confirmed that China is “snugly positioned between other undeveloped countries, above the world’s average.” That means they can’t drive properly?

      • My_honourable_lord

        ‘2. “Not eating with your mouth open”. Insulting cultural norms is dead giveaway of bigoted racism. Westerners also consider slurping soup to be rude and yet it is considered a sign of respect in Japan.’

        So now you use JAPAN to defend yourself? That is just marvellous.

  • Tiny Tim

    A long run to the bathroom?

  • flightisallright

    That doesn’t make sense. Bo Xilai was charged for corruption partly because it also suited the CCP, as Bo Xilai became too powerful. Also they used him to show off their fighting of corruption. No further scapegoat was needed.

  • Webster

    It’s a strategic in trying to get the territory without actually having to determine whether the “historical” context flies in court (I imagine, even if the international community were to deem China’s claim over the territory sound due to such a context, they’d be setting an awful precedent for other historically “disputed” territories in the region…).

    • Alex Dương

      So Japan has always been willing to have the ICJ arbitrate this dispute, right?

      • Webster

        EXACTLY the issue! You’re clever :)
        No, of course not; though, neither is China. Imagine the precedent this sets for them (i.e. the perpetuation of the “historical” context for settling territorial disputes). China has many other such disputes as well (India, Tibet, etc).

        I don’t think any party really has an investment in really solving it. I think, however, that China is struggling to figure out how to shift the status quo.

        Having a dispute is fine, but you can’t then just say that we’re right, you’re wrong. As much as the ridicule the Japanese position, theirs is really no different.

        • Alex Dương

          I commend you for your honesty.

          • Webster

            It’s hard not to be as it’s no secret.

            The issue here, from what I see, is the nature of the claim, not whether [Japan] has a claim (they clearly do, legally). However, both sides stand to lose a lot from mediation. Hell, even if Japan won in this dispute, it would set a precedent for the fight over Dokdo/Liancourts.

          • Alex Dương

            Have you read the other comments here? I don’t see many other people expressing comments as reasonable as yours. Even setting aside the netouyos’ comments, many others seem to just blindly accept the Japanese Government’s version of the truth. Japan has a claim, but the official claim is nonsense: the true claim should be that “Senkaku” was a prize of war.

          • Webster

            Well, that is debatable. Japan will say that they administered the Senkakas even before they took concessions from China, and always say it as completely separate from China.

            China, of course, views that territory as being a contiguous part of Taiwan (I guess?).

            Much of the debate is solely focused on the fact that Japan regained control of that area after the US left. Though, they argue they’d already been administering that territory.

            I’d refrain from saying anything definitively, as it would require us to know a something we just don’t: did Japan really know of the islets and view them as not a part of China (i.e. Terra Nullius). Answering this would lead us to be able to purport or refute China’s claim.

          • Alex Dương

            Japan knew the islands were Chinese. It is a fact that in 1885, the Governor of Okinawa petitioned Tokyo to annex the islands, but the Foreign Minister denied his request. The Governor repeated the request in 1890 and 1893, but he was again denied both times.

            If the islands were “terra nullius” in 1895, logically, they would have been “terra nullius” in 1885. So why didn’t Japan just annex them in 1885?

            The Japanese Government cannot answer this question. They can only say “that’s irrelevant.”

          • Webster

            That I can’t answer…
            I’m just pointing out that, at the core of it, the dispute hinges on whether or not Japan saw that territory as separate as that which they were ceded later on in the Maguan Treaty.

            * Also, which sources are those accounts from? I haven’t found anything yet positing those claims, I’d like to read them if you can remember. Everything I read essentially pointed out that nobody really inhabited them, and there was confusion on both sides as to their “nationality.”

          • Alex Dương

            Sure, it’s from this book, which is based on the author’s dissertation from Syracuse:

            http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Rights-Territorial-Sino-Japanese-Relations/dp/0824824938

            Search within Google Books for “kaoru” and go to page 97.

          • Webster

            Thanks.

          • connie

            It would be very helpful if all discussions were done in this manner.

    • Webster

      “nul nullius” should be “Terra Nullius”, I believe.

  • My_honourable_lord

    Ok and?

  • My_honourable_lord

    Easily.

  • TheSOP

    Haha, thats actually a really good point! I actually read some of Sun Yatsens writings, cant say I’m a huge fan of his. He is ok…

  • My_honourable_lord

    No. They are busy pissing in the streets of shanghai and starbucks table tops.

  • My_honourable_lord

    ‘If 1.3 billion people all pissed, Washington would drown.’

    1. Dicks aren’t long enough.
    2. Looks like shanghai and beijing will drown.

  • Germandude

    Hah. Will do next time. Thanks for the advice.

  • David

    Does anybody else get the feeling this article was simply an excuse to show pictures of U.S. Air Force personal loading cruise missiles onto a B-52 bomber? Not that I am complaining, I think they are great.

    • TheSOP

      Yea I think that is actually from the hyper sonic cruise missile test… absolutely nothing to do with flying over the ADIZ

  • Alex Dương

    It’s an issue because every decision has consequences. If Tokyo drops its claim to “Takeshima,” then doing so also means it has effectively dropped its claim to the Kurils. This is why I said Japan has to play hardball on “Senkaku”; if it loses “Senkaku,” it has lost all three of its island disputes.

    This is also why Japan is not interested in having the ICJ arbitrate the case. If they lose, they’ve again lost all of their claims. But even if they win, they will end up losing “Takeshima” and the Kurils because the logic that led to “Senkaku” being Japanese means Dokdo is Korean and the Kurils are Russian.

  • TheSOP

    Best if you were on such a flight

  • hailexiao

    And then China goes bankrupt because we default on the bonds, they lose 75% of exports, and their internet gets destroyed by retaliation. It isn’t rosy for any party involved, but I don’t think the US will be worse off than China in this scenario.

  • m0l0k0

    HAHAHAHAHHA CHINA CAN’T DO SHIT

    JSDF REPORTS CHINA DID NOT SCRAMBLE JETS.

    IF THEY ARE AFRAID OF JAPAN DO THEY SERIOUSLY THINK THEY CAN CHALLENGE UNITED STATES?

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