Derelict Cultural Revolution Era Mao Zedong Statue Relocated

A Mao Zedong statue left among ruins/rubble.

A Mao Zedong statue left among ruins/rubble.

From NetEase:

Chongqing Relocates Derelict Mao Zedong Statue

2014 February 25, Chongqing city Shapingba district Huayanputian Logistics Company, a Mao Zedong statue was hoisted by three 80 ton cranes onto a flatbed trailer truck to be sent to the Chongqing Municipal Industry Museum. This statue of Mao Zedong was erected in 1968 during China’s Cultural Revolution period, the entire body molded in concrete. This is also Chongqing’s first time moving a Mao Zedong statue from its original location to another.

Workers preparing to relocate the Mao Zedong statue.

Workers preparing to relocate the Mao Zedong statue.

The Mao Zedong statue wrapped in red cloth.

The Mao Zedong statue wrapped in red cloth.

mao-zedong-statue-chongqing-cultural-revolution-era-relocation-04

The Mao Zedong statue being hoisted up.

The Mao Zedong statue being hoisted up.

The Mao Zedong statue's pedestal being demolished.

The Mao Zedong statue’s pedestal being demolished.

The Mao Zedong statue placed sideways on the ground after being hoisted up.

The Mao Zedong statue placed sideways on the ground after being hoisted up.

The Mao Zedong statue hoisted onto a flatbed trailer truck to be sent to the Chongqing City Industry Museum.

The Mao Zedong statue hoisted onto a flatbed trailer truck to be sent to the Chongqing City Industry Museum.

mao-zedong-statue-chongqing-cultural-revolution-era-relocation-16

Comments from NetEase:

网易浙江省宁波市网友 ip:124.89.*.*:

Hahaha!! The two little girls high-fiving each other in front of the derelict statue! NetEase’s mockery is very deep/subtle!

ExtraIRONMAN [网易四川省眉山市手机网友]: (responding to above)

There’s also a photo with adult toys, the editor/photographer sure is bad.

网易江苏省徐州市手机网友(180.124.*.*):

That photo with the adult toys… [3rd image]

网易福建省福州市手机网友 ip:183.251.*.*: (responding to above)

I wanted to mention that too… heh heh

zhuboji [网易重庆市网友]:

Tied up? No way?

帅气飞扬 [网易江苏省盐城市网友]:

Chairman Mao, a great man for the ages!!

网易山东省德州市网友 ip:119.189.*.*:

The working people fervently love you, the working class cherishes your memory, the peasants support you.

贾华 [网易湖北省襄阳市网友]:

Mao Zedong Thought [Maoism] will shine forever!

勒马戈壁 [网易北京市网友]:

NetEase has courage, the day is almost upon us.

网易河南省洛阳市网友 ip:222.141.*.*:

Testing to see if we can comment.

网易安徽省黄山市手机网友 ip:220.179.*.*:

A great leader.

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • 5000 years of history

    Sofa

  • Lord_Helmet

    Something that should have been done while he was alive.

  • mr.wiener

    Adult toys in the foreground as a blanket wrapped and hogtied Mao gently moves past in the background…..welcome to the new China comrade.

    • diverdude7

      I’m trying to see the toys. sorry to bug u,, but help us (I’m sure there are others).

      • Probotector

        If you can’t read Chinese, ask someone to translate the characters in the foreground on the building in front.

        • donscarletti

          Chongqing Lanxu Garden Installation Company Limited

          I don’t get it. How do you know they make sex gardens?

          • Wololoo

            成人用品。

          • donscarletti

            Yeah, I was just being silly.

          • Dick Leigh

            I knew what the words meant but never thought that it was a euphemism for sex toys. Oh god :S

          • Irvin

            It’s no euphemism, that’s what we call it here.

          • Kai

            Heh, literally “adult products”.

  • The FRED FONG

    Chairman Mao would be proud

    • mr.wiener

      A concrete Mao. Lucky he wasn’t made out of bronze, they’d have melted him down.

      • Irvin

        LOL that’s so true!

  • commander

    The puzzling question to outside China watchers is that why can contemporary Chinese not criticize Mao Zedong for his colossal govorning failures, including the Great Leap Forward Movement, which left millions of people starved to death and the Cultural Revolution, which plunged the Middle Kingdom into poltical upheaval?

    Is there any Chinese here who can explain this?

    My feeling is that though some Chinese take the dim view of the founding leader, they hardly air their thoughts publicly as they fear “any slip of tongue” could cause the communisty party’s machine to retaliage against them.

    Is this true?

    • donscarletti

      Nah, the guys who hate him bitch and moan about him publicly all the time if none of his fans are around.

      The CCP doesn’t care, its Chairman’s own father (a good and smart man to my knowledge) was persecuted by Mao Zedong his entire life, exiled twice, forced to publicly confess once, expelled from the party, locked up for most of the cultural revolution and was only allowed back in the party after Mao died. If someone did that to my father I’d be pissed.

      It’s the same as before, it’s the illiterate rabble think he’s a god, the party use words to honour him in order to appease the masses while trying to lead China in a sensible and productive direction.

      • Markoff

        hahaha, I see what you did there, the 2nd paragraph should be translated to Chinese and spreaded over Weibo, even no Chinese can disagreee thanks to brackets :)

    • Insomnicide

      Because he managed to unite the nation, politically, culturally, and socially. If it wasn’t for Mao, every city in China would be like Hong Kong. Constantly discriminating against other fellow Chinese but zealously kissing the arse of outsiders. Infighting and disunity still goes on today, but the majority of China have been united by Mao’s social reforms. They do criticize his failures, but you don’t see it often because his achievements overshadow it.

      • Marcus Black

        Couldn’t agree more. If only there was someone like Mao to unite African nations against exploitation. Nobody is perfect. What matters is that his intentions were to help his country. The failed reforms weren’t to intentionally starve people. It’s life people. The guy had good intentions for his country.

        • donscarletti

          How about Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Muammar Gaddafi?

          Africa has a proud history of starving and torturing its people out of exploitation. Because remember, the only way to stop the white man from exploiting the people is by exploiting them yourself.

          • David

            You forgot to mention the 2000 year tradition of slaves that was the basis for the slave trade to the new world (and which still goes on today).

          • Kai

            Slavery was only an “African” tradition in the sense that mankind came from Africa. I think your comment–perhaps inadvertently–comes off as trying to pin the evil of slavery on black Africa and that’s kinda irksome.

          • David

            I guess I never look at historical things as evil or good, just real or not. If you are going to judge slavery you must find every person who participates guilty (the buyer, middle man and seller all). Of course slavery has been around as long as our species (literally). Since at least the bronze age we have written documentation (cuneiform writing) of slave tallies and sales receipts. Pompey wrote a famous article in about 65 B.C that gave tips on how to properly treat your slave (this was about 5 years after he put down the Spartacus rebellion). I mention the African slave trade in particular because Don was talking about Africa.

          • Kai

            I do find every person who participates “guilty” but not without recognizing context. There’s a difference to me between someone who grew up with certain norms and went along with it versus someone who consciously does something they personally believe to be wrong. There are shades of guilt and “wrongness”.

            I usually see people bringing up how it was black Africans who sold their own to be slaves in the New World in the context of diminishing to dismissing “white people’s” culpability and “guilt” in the whole slave trade and institution. Some have made such arguments in even more…irksome terms. It strikes me as deflection, as a desire to shift blame, to disassociate as much as possible to the point of being insensitive if not simply dishonest. Of course, every situation where it comes up should be judged on its own, in context, and that’s why I thought your comment may have merely “inadvertently” come off that way.

          • ScottLoar

            Millions (yes, millions) of Europeans were enslaved to the rulers along the Barbary Coast over the course of three hundred years as corsairs raided the European coastlines as far away as Cornwall and Ireland for slaves. Indentured servants in the American colonies were treated worse than slaves because they had no resale value; the most dangerous work – like digging canals – was reserved for indentured servants or penniless immigrants; see, for example, White Cargo: The Forgotten History of Britain’s White Slaves in America (ISBN-13:978-0814742969). The Navajo
            and Comanche of the American southwest were active slave traders, and captives taken by many North American Indian tribes were treated as slaves until their death usually within three years or, rarely, redeemed. The Turks within the early 20th century enslaved Armenian women and tattooed their faces in blue as mark of the hareem, their market price and faces advertised in newspapers. The Chinese community throughout Southeast Asia were active slave holders
            and traders; all of this is historical fact and open to public knowledge. Instead, slavery is thrown into the face of white people as example of their inhumanity, an example of selective prejudice by others, particularly Asians and black Africans, whose history and treatment of others is just as bad or worse – and that’s kinda irksome.

            I’m sure you’d agree that those trying to perfume their people and past most often can’t get past their own stink.

          • Kai

            The point is to not think or come across as suggesting one wrong offsets another. People get caught up in arguing over the reputation of a race or people as being “better or worse” in something than another, instead of just acknowledging the “wrong” in something. When they do this, it suggests a certain insecurity that might suggest something worse. The flipside are people who lord a wrong over another, perhaps generalizing a wrong over another, in an effort to again argue a race or people being “better or worse” than another.

          • Marcus Black

            Actually it was black people who guided Europeans and Arabs to the center of the continents where most other black people were. It was also negros who hunted other negros and exchanged them for trinkets. I bet you some of these negro chieftains exchanged some of their countrymen for white women (probably Irish who were also enslaved by the British). The African continent was a death sentence for white invaders initially. They had a life expectancy of only a couple of months. It was the coons in Africa that helped them find their way around and probably sheltered them. See this is the problem with Africans. Too damn nice to someone even though that person is blatantly stealing their land and enslaving their ass. I can see why some people think we are genetically stupid. It’s probably not far from the truth.

          • Kai

            I’m going to stand by my original comment which is a recognition that slavery is something all races have been guilty of. No one is absolving the “black race” of slavery and any of the “race’s” historical participation in it.

          • anon101

            2.9 MILLION people ARE IN modern day slavery in china (thats like enslaving all of iceland 6 times over) . all the way back to the Shang dynisty (where 5% of the population of china were slaves) china has always used slaves. But of cause that gets over looked as irrelevant because thats chinese people enslaving chinese people, Black people also enslaved white people but again that gets left out. its only when white people enslave black people that it hits the headlines.

          • markus peg

            I don’t know how or why the subject came to this but i wanted to say that I read awhile ago that slavery in the modern world is more than it has ever been, that includes almost every country including the US and UK. Where people get kept hidden away working like slaves. So China may have these problems as you point out, but they are hardly alone in this issue.

          • Marcus Black

            All those guys are psychopaths except maybe Gaddafi who actually improved the living standard of his country and laid some proper foundation. Africa has not seen a leader the likes of Mao except for Patrice Lumumba who is a hero in my eyes. Sadly he was assassinated before he had the chance to do anything by the foreign powers who do not desire Africa to become stable. It’s much easier to control chaos.

          • David

            Wasn’t Mandela a leader of exceptionally high character? Granted they locked him away for 27 years but even when he got out many in other African countries would not listen to him (instead following the example of his psycho wife).

          • Marcus Black

            That’s what the media wants you to believe. Go do some research on him and you will find out he isn’t what the media is painting him to be. The guy ordered the killing of many. That’s why he was imprisoned in the first place.

          • David

            Fine, even if you thought he was a bad man the rest of the continent only knows him by the media reports, so they would have been fooled also. I know he was not a saint but the idea that all the factious fighting in large parts of the continent would be resolved if a charismatic leader arose is just not credible. Look what is happening in South Sudan today. The last thirty years has shown us that when one tribe gets just a little advantage over another nothing will stop the genocide of their ancestral enemies or the leaders who use this for their own personal gain. Anyway, that is how I see it.

          • Marcus Black

            We can agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

          • David

            and I yours. I know there is so much about Africa I do not know on an intimate level (one can only study so much and a lot of my time has been spend studying Asia). I have friends from Nigeria, Cameroon and South Africa (three pretty different places) and they all have a lot to share.

        • Dick Leigh

          Good intentions didn’t help the 36 million he starved to death, or the milions purged during the Cultural Revolution.

          • Marcus Black

            At least he didn’t oppress and starve people of another country like ehh the British aristocrats did in India and probably many other places around the world as a result of imperialism. Personally I think all unstable countries such as those found in Africa and how China was need a single party government to lay a foundation. Democracy in such an environment is unstable. It leads to coups and civil wars. Also at such a critical time in a countries development, each leader will only be concerned with the period they are in power. They will put most of their effort on winning the next election rather than say building a rigid infrastructure. To succeed, democracy needs to begin life as a one party rule. Once a solid foundation has been established, multi party elections can then be gradually introduced. The problem with this however is the risk that the single party will be reluctant to implement these changes without the people demanding it.

          • Markoff

            …after all even Hitler was good guy right trying to unite European countries into Third reich, he had good intentions too, exactly like Mao

          • Marcus Black

            Hitler and Mao are different. Mao wasn’t a rampant racist. Hitler was. So your argument is invalid.

          • anon101

            yeah you are right, hitler killed 11 million, mao killed 45 million in 4 years, hitler was the good person,

          • M8

            Mao didn’t kill 45 million people, his bad policies did. If we go by your logic then George Bush killed 3000 Iraqi civilians.

          • M8

            Hitler openly stated he wants to kill all Jews and looked down on non-whites

          • Zappa Frank

            also on some whites.. he did not have a good opinion of Slavic populations..

        • Markoff

          exploitation? because they are doing sooo well independent, not receiving any help from abroad at all… what africa needs it’s complete lack of help from other countries to be finally responsible for themself without any excuses and then survive or die on its own

          • Marcus Black

            Then tell me why Belgium conspired to get Patrice Lumumba assassinated?

      • miomeinmio

        You’re kidding, right? Have you BEEN to China?

      • moeimoei

        So….ideals of unity over high living standards?

        • Insomnicide

          Unity comes before prosperity. This is the first step to building a nation.

      • donscarletti

        Instead there is only one city like Hong Kong, where all Chinese must wait in turn to get permission to go and buy infant formula, lest their babies be poisoned.

      • Dick Leigh

        I taught English in Jiangsu and MOST people hated Mao and by extension, didn’t like communism either. It didn’t matter the age either, most people young and old thought Mao destroyed an entire generation and that communism was an embarrassing legacy best forgotten.

        • M8

          Not everyone in China is a fan of Mao like the netizens on here believes.

      • anon101

        Insomnicide,, are you trolling?

        …embarrassing moment when you cant tell if someone is being sarcastic or incredibly stupid (the type of stupidity that comes from a selfish society,,, created by…. mao,,, the pedophilic wanker…)

      • Markoff

        ever heard of country called Taiwan?

        • Kai

          There’s nothing wrong, it’s just that wasn’t the choice made.

        • Insomnicide

          Asia is not as peaceful as Europe. And although there’s difference between the province, they’re still part of the larger Chinese cultural circle. Historically, they’ve been separated again and again. But they’ve always reunited. There are many good reasons why they shouldn’t break into province sized countries. Society, culture, landlockedness, scale of operations etc. etc.

          As for Taiwan, what about it? They don’t see themselves as Chinese, the independence movement is growing larger as we speak. That’s the very symbol of disunity, even though they’re ethnically and culturally Chinese they are opposed to the Chinese people. Taiwan is the shining example of what could have happened if Mao didn’t come through with his reforms.

          • Kai

            Asia not as peaceful as Europe? Er, I guess in a very narrow way of looking at history but could it be? Or do you think its fundamentally impossible? Forever?

            Being landlocked is a good point though I don’t think the other arguments about shared society/culture really prevents people from cecession.

            I don’t see Taiwan being seen by any meaningful amount of people as “the very symbol of disunity”. The closest I can think of is people occasionally laughing at how Taiwanese lawmakers might get into physical fights in session, but that sort of thing is laughed at pretty much everywhere. I don’t think many mainlanders point to that for any serious point about “disunity”. Mainlanders are far and away rather envious of Taiwan even if they resent it when Taiwanese people cop a needless superiority complex. But then again, who doesn’t resent people who cop a superiority complex?

            Taiwan is not a shining example of good or bad if there was no Mao except for those who want to oversimplify things to the point of actual absurdity. To clarify, there are just too many factors. It’s kinda fun for alternate reality fantasies but who really knows what would’ve happened? Anyway, rarely have I ever seen someone use Taiwan as an argument for why Mao was good. This is a first I think.

          • Insomnicide

            I mean Taiwan as an example of disunity among Chinese people. Even though Taiwanese people are ethnically and culturally part of the Chinese group, they distance themselves very much from the other Chinese people and especially mainlanders.

          • Kai

            Thanks for the clarification. You feel they distance from other Chinese people? To me, its mostly just distancing from mainlanders and for the same reasons Singaporean Chinese and Hong Kongers do.

      • Cameron

        Unite the nation culturally by his only slightly unsuccessful attenpt to destroyany culture that did not worship Mao. What a hero!

        Basically your argument “he was great because look at the country now” could be used to support any victorious tyrant in history.

        To the extent that it is succeeding today, it is in spite of Maos backward philosophy not because of it.

        To the extant China resembles the US/Europe – that’s the legacy of Deng Xiaoping.

        To the extent modern China resembles North Korea – that’s the legacy of Mao.

    • Q Ball

      Because 1. Its probably illegal or dangerous to critisize Mao too much. 2. Chinese people like to put their heads in the sand and pretend a problem dont exist (smog etc) and believe all is well. 3. Jealousy from people who are still as poor today as in the Mao era and lament capitalism. In their eyes equal poverty is better 4.people who truly believe in the propaganda.

      I think group 4 is very small. People will pretend to be from group 4 because that gives advantages in life. In the era where text and film last forever it is not wise to pick a side before a winner is declared.

      • miomeinmio

        Not so much. I don’t feel like you’ve spoken to that many Chinese.

    • miomeinmio

      Commander, I think it’s important to just simply understand the level of political indoctrination that goes on from birth here. If you’re only taught that Mao and the party saved the country from birth, and all the people around you believe it as well, well. It’s a fact then isn’t it? People here eventually find out about the problems but if they’re couched in kind of ambiguous terms it’s easy to let your own learned biases shape your outcomes.

      We do the same thing in the states. Even knowing all the shit that goes down I still have trouble seeing any part of my country or leaders in a TRULY bad light, even though it exists.

      That said, another large part of the reason is a high level of political apathy. Which, after the cultural revolution, is probably a survival mechanism.

      • Irvin

        Yup, it’s Plato’s cave……..or was it Socrates? I don’t remember, I know there’s a cave and some shadows though.

        • David

          lol it is Plato. But it is cool you even remember. Plato used this to illustrate the ‘higher planes’ of the virtues.

          • Irvin

            Higher planes of virtue? wtf? that’s not how I remembered it. All I get outta it was the Matrix in plato’s time….maybe higher planes of reality, but virtue? it could be anything, it doesn’t necessary view as virtuous.

            When the dude was free and refused to accept the new reality it could be view as “to condemed to be free” line of philosophy.

            When the dude return to share his knowledge and free the other prisoners it could be view as his own selfish needs to not be alone. None of it is necessary virtuous.

          • David

            I think you need to read his ‘Republic’ again (a true torture in and of itself). Plato believed all virtues (love, honor, good etc. . .) had an ultimate or ideal definition/expression which could not be completely understood by most mortal men from what they could perceive with their physical senses (the cave is the limitation of the physical senses and the understanding the men got from those senses). He called these ideals and are sometimes referred to as forms. However, these ideals casts shadows that men could see the outline of (for instance physical love was a shadow of the expression of true love). By training, philosophers were better able to understand these higher and perfect ideals (or virtues) virtues than other men. Therefore it was the job of the philosopher to lead men to a more virtuous life so they can better experience and know these ideals. While he does not say it directly, this seems to be his justification, later in the Republic, for putting philosophers in charge of the government.

      • Cameron

        Yep, education. One of the several bug fucking elephants in the room of Chinas success story for me. If a kid in the UK says “I think the UK government is shit, and capitalism is shit because XYZ”. As long as he gives a reasonable defence of his argument he’ll get a pat on the head and a good grade, A kid does the equivalent in China he will fail school and spend his life as a farmer.

        Sooner or later any one party state will collapse as it is built – by necessity on lies and ignorance. I expect everyone in the CCP knows this deep down – they just don’t want it to happen under their watch

        • Kai

          China has vague hopes of being like Singapore?

    • comradewang

      I’ve talked to many older generation Chinese regarding Mao, most of them knew and didn’t agree with a lot of the things he did. There’s no doubt he instilled fear in everyone with an iron fist. But almost all of them agreed that without Mao there wouldn’t’ be a unified China. Though the political system today in China is nowhere near perfect, during the time China was in utter turmoil, Mao did bring the spirit of the Chinese people together and made them proud to be Chinese and gave them a cause to fight. Like what Marcus Black said “Nobody is perfect”, and Mao was far from it, but I feel like his ironclad leadership was needed during that time.

      • markus peg

        I’m divided on this opinion. I feel that Kuomintang did most of the fighting against the Japanese and after the war they were weak and Mao then decided to hit them. He did not know how to run a country but wanted to be in power anyway, which harmed a lot of Chinese people.
        If he didn’t take control someone else would have. whose to say what Kuomintang would have become over the years. Or if Zhou Enlai were in power rather than Mao as i think Zhou Enlai understood more than Mao about how to run a nation.

        • Sam Peng Bam

          More chinese died under KMT rule over china than under Mao, of coarse there were wars, but also rampant corruptions. Why the CCP starting with under 100 000 memberships could defeat an army of 8 millions? Think about it.
          Also you people are really brainwashed to believe all the shits about Mao. It is you people that are brain washed by western medias.

          • markus peg

            I know KMT had a lot of corruption, that was its biggest problem, but i did say “whose to say what would have become of KMT over the years” China has corruption to this day but they are fighting it, we will never know how things would have been.

            However, feel closer to the opinion that China should distance itself from Mao rather than celebrate him as a hero. He should be remembered not a a great or evil man but as he truly was. I do not feel that China’s idolization is realistically true to his accomplishments.

            Deng Xiaoping observed that Mao’s disastrous policies could no longer
            represent the Party’s finest hour, but that the legacy and character of
            Zhou Enlai could.

            trying to attack my understanding as brainwashing by the media is quite low of you. Many countries use media and controlled media to get people to flock to one train of thought. For example North Korea is one that gets its people to love their leader and believe they are the best nation on earth.

            China does it along with many other nations (though on different levels). Clever people see through this, Many Chinese people don’t believe the spin news media puts on things. All news companies have their own agenda, China’s is controlled by the government.

            However, other News companies around are not controlled by the government which make it harder to realize their secret agenda’s and manipulation. This is why it is a good idea to get news and information from a variety of sources.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            I am not saying you are brainwashed, just the other posters perpetuating all the wild unsubstantiated stories about Mao, some may be true and some myths.
            You seems to stand above them.

          • mr.wiener

            sources?

          • Alan Dale Brown

            The KMT weren’t saints. Both sides committed atrocities in the civil war. The US initially didn’t want to support them, but eventually did in order to contain communism in Asia during the Korean war. Taiwan was not really a democracy until the 1990’s. Chiang Kai Shek blamed the loss on internal corruption in the KMT. My source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War Still better off to be in Taiwan, than under Mao.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            sources? What do you mean. Mao is accused of being a womaniser, glutton, sadist. pedophile etc.
            I am not defending him because I do not know the truth.
            All I know is plenty of vilifications floating about. There may be agendas behind it.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            A lot of those claims came from his personal physician, Li Zhisui.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            He sold lots of books.

          • mr.wiener

            I meant for your claim that more Chinese died under the KMT than under Mao.
            Sources?

        • Q Ball

          Communist vs Fascist…

    • David Webb

      let me break it down for you, the white man love to defame and devalue the heroes and saviors of other people who are non-white. The white man only respect political heroes with the ones they “approve”. Like MLK, Mandela, Dalai Lama, Ghandi, people who are passive and always on the same political line as the white man, the uncle tom if you will. But when the political hero has fought against Western interest/ideology, even to the point of warfare . That political hero will get slandered through the White media mercilessly. They will white wash everything about that person and demonize that person. Like how Americans treat George Washington and those “founding fathers” like God’s second and third child, but forget to mention how those White men owned hundreds of slaves whom they tortured, raped, and killed. The white man will ignore every single one of those information in text book, media, and movies.

      So let’s get back to Mao, Mao saved not only China as a country/nation but he saved the entire Chinese race. Did he make huge mistakes that caused millions of death? You bet he did. But is he forgiven? You bet your ass he is forgiven by the Chinese people. The Chinese people forgive him for his mistakes, so who in the fuck does the white man thinks that he can be the judge to say who is a hero and who is not a hero for another group of people? The white man is just an arrogant hubris creature who thinks he can be the judge of everything. Who in the fuck do you think you are? Don’t worry though, because a white man’s opinion on Mao is, was, and will never be respected in China, it has no value or credibility, none. So while the white man continues on his anti-Mao campaign across his own media, the majority of the Chinese people will always consider Mao as a hero and even a savoir of our people. His policies have caused death and suffering, but what he did for the people from 1911 to 1949 out weighs every single mistake he has ever made, because without 1911 to 1949, there will be no China and also Mao was the only Chinese who was genius enough, talented enough, and masterful enough to save the Chinese people, this is the type of person who comes once every one thousand years. Regardless of what people labeled Mao as a communist or a socialist. In it’s purity, He was a nationalist, he cared about the well being of his own people and he was willing to go on a journey to save the people who he dearly loved. Losing many of his own family members in the process. How do i know that he cared about Chinese people? I read almost all of the papers he wrote when he was in his late teen and early 20s. So before you make ignorant and foolish statement, first go do some real homework on the subject. Don’t just regurgitate the trash that media throw at you.

      As the Chinese National Anthem has stated,

      “As the Chinese nation has arrived at its most perilous time,Every person is forced to expel their very last roar.
      Arise! Arise! Arise!”

      The official Chinese government view on Mao is he was 70% right 30% wrong. If you look at the national poll on Mao, the Chinese people viewed Mao as 80% right and 20% wrong. End of the story.

      P.S I don’t assume that you are Caucasian, But i am just generally speaking here because i know a lot of people here are white and they are anti Mao, I am not saying that you are but i am just here to educate you. Also, don’t assume I am some old Chinese person who has strong Mao Nostalgia.

      • Alan Dale Brown

        Saved the Chinese race? Then why has life in Taiwan been so much better than mainland China?

        • David Webb

          Life in Taiwan been so much better than mainland China. That is an opinion. Not a fact. Also comparing an island to a country that is bigger than united states in terms of land measurement is not a very compatible comparison to say the least. Adding to the fact that China’s population is 56 times the population of Taiwan make things a lot more complicated.

          • anon101

            russia doesnt says “ohh we have so much land, its fine for us to kill children for a few yuan”, the fuck everyone else mentality isnt from a big country, so perhaps its population right? china has 266 people per square mile. monico has 46,700 people per square mile, taiwan = 1,663 people per square mile. so its not population density. running out of things it can be,, its clearly not just chinese people because HK, Macao, Taiwan etc dont have the same crappy mentality. there for it can only be whats happened since the founding of china, there for, mao and his legacy has turned chinese people into locusts.

          • David Webb

            Crappy mentality = non-white mentality? That’s the vibe i am getting from all these gracious Caucasians here.

            Because every single place you just mentioned here seem to be a place that was colonized in the last century. Sub- conscious white superiority arrogance runs through all fabric of Western society and the mind of the Westerner and this is a prime example.

          • mr.wiener

            I think you will find racial arrogance runs through the fabric of most societies. The only difference is the west [and WASPs] have been calling the tune for the last 2 centuries. It is only natural that this will change.

          • Q Ball

            I laugh whenever libertarians rant about Obama trampling the constitution or something like that. They say the Constitution is holy or something. They claim 2008 financial crisis was the first time the law was ignored. Then I think about the Indians, the Black people, internment of the Japanese, the slavery.
            Its BS. The Constitution is just a document. White people have been ignoring it for centuries. You only complain when it hurts you.
            Same when white people complain of affirmative action. Did you know asian americans have to score 100 points higher on SAT? White people are dumb and their getting free advantages, just like black people, but not as much though. And they complain about affirmative action… sheesh. Only asians have the right to complain about affirmative action.

          • mr.wiener

            …um, entertaining as your rant was, what did it have to do with my comment?

          • Q Ball

            Im giving examples of racial arrogance. The Constitution only ever applied to white people. Only recently it started applying to minorities. And the moment that happened, they started complaining. Its ridiculous.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            The 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments outlawed slavery, and extended citizenship, voting, and equal protection under the law to minorities; they were written 140 years ago. The US has failed to uphold these standards many times, but keeping people accountable to what is written in the Constitution – the “rule of law” – is the most effective, if imperfect, way to address these failures. The PRC also has a constitution; however, the Communist party can ignore it with impunity. You don’t hear about a supreme court or some similar institution overruling the Politboro. *That’s* the problem.

          • David Webb

            Tell that to Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis.

          • Kai

            To be accurate, the problem is that the Chinese Constitution is written so that the government and Party can ignore it. THAT’s the problem.

            That said, any constitution is only as effective as the willingness of the people to obey it. Can we just build off the agreement that governments and people have failed to do so plenty of times everywhere? I don’t think the argument should devolve into trying to argue “who” is “better or worse” and instead just stick to defensible facts, such as Q Ball’s comment being gross generalizations that are fine for lamentations but ultimately unproductive?

          • nickhz

            are you really saying that asian americans are the most persecuted race in the US?

          • nickhz

            sorry…. not “race” but you know what i mean

          • Alan Dale Brown

            The colonization of China by European countries is definitely a dark spot of history; it was unfortunate and unnecessary, and did not benefit China in the balance. But that is beside the point; there were major settlements of Europeans in Shanghai, Tianjin, and elsewhere in the mainland. It’s pretty much the same.

            Also, don’t forget: Marxism isn’t exactly of Chinese origin. The cultural revolution was aimed at destroying a lot of Chinese tradition.

          • David Webb

            the colonization of HK and Macau was a dark spot of history. There were some occupation by various concessions in certain coastal harbor cities. Just want to be clear. China as a whole was never colonized, if it was then Chinese wouldn’t have retained their Chinese names. There is an actually big difference between colonization and occupation.

          • Zappa Frank

            you don’t seem to know the history of Macau if you think is a dark spot….

          • anon101

            crappy mentality = only thinking about your self (baby milk powder, current pollution levels in china, car drivers stabbing each other, main landers attacking other main landers because they happen to drive a well put together japanese car, etc etc. thats what i mean by crappy mentality, its that main landers think about money more than other peoples health.

            second part of your message. considering in 1900’s a quarter of the worlds land was in british hands alone, its hard to pick a country that hasnt been colonized in the last century. however i did mention russia, and that hasnt been colonized.

          • Cameron

            Yeah because “Westerners” all think the same. There is more diversity of thinking, culture and behaviour in London or indeed any other large “Western” city than there is in the whole of China.

          • nickhz

            are you saying that these countries that anon101 mentioned dont have a better quality of life?

          • Kai

            Please don’t use arguments that the Chinese use about Tibet and Xinjiang. Westerners with more critical thinking education should know better.

          • nickhz

            i just wanted him to answer the key point that was asked, as opposed to avoiding the question.

          • Kai

            Let me make it extra clear I think David Webb spouted a lot of bullshit. That said, I think David Webb’s argument is pretty clear AND had already answered “the key point” you mention when he protested the comparison to Taiwan as unfair.

            First, his argument. commander asked why comtemporary Chinese can’t criticize Mao. David Webb’s response was to argue WHY contemporary Chinese don’t criticize Mao to the extent that might satisfy commander and cause commander to never ask such a question in the first place. That argument was that Mao is seen as having done more good than bad in the eyes of many Chinese people, many who do recognize his failures but still see him positive on the balance. It’s a reiteration of the whole 70/30% conclusion. He merely added in a bunch of conspiratorial racial motivations to how he sees “white people” treating figures “non-white people” treat as “heroes”.

            So while the white man continues on his anti-Mao campaign across his own media, the majority of the Chinese people will always consider Mao as a hero and even a savoir of our people. His policies have caused death and suffering, but what he did for the people from 1911 to 1949 out weighs every single mistake he has ever made, because without 1911 to 1949, there will be no China and also Mao was the only Chinese who was genius enough, talented enough, and masterful enough to save the Chinese people, this is the type of person who comes once every one thousand years.

            He’s more or less defending the right for Chinese people to have an opinion of Mao that differs from what “white people” have. The core argument isn’t that offensive. One man’s insurgent is another man’s freedom fighter and all that. I liked Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes but that doesn’t mean I agree with his stances in support of the NRA. So some Chinese people think what he did at one point in his life outweighs what he did in another. I can understand that.

            I was yet another person in a long line who scoffingly asked what David Webb meant by “saved the Chinese race”. In this thread, Alan Dale Brown asked and then suggested that the better living conditions in Taiwan somehow proves that Mao did NOT “save the Chinese race”.

            Take a step back for a moment here. A better standard of living has no actual relation to whether or not the “Chinese race” was “saved”. ADB assumed living conditions demonstrate whether a people were “saved” or not, therefore countering David Webb’s assertion, before ascertaining just what David Webb meant by it.

            I believe David Webb feels Mao did a better job with China’s soverignty than he feels the KMT would’ve done. In his hierarchy of values, that’s what’s important to him, more so than living conditions for an island with barely more population than the city of Shanghai decades after the civil war. I’ve always maintained that it’s actually really hard to be certain the KMT would’ve done a better job just by looking at Taiwan today because there are just WAY too many confounding factors at play. It’s more what some want to believe than what we can reasonably say would definitely be true.

            Anyway, David Webb then protests the comparison, which pretty much demonstrates he acknowledges that living standards are better in Taiwan, but he resists the notion that it refutes his position. That’s because it doesn’t, because his position was never that living conditions in mainland China are better than those in Taiwan.

            Unfortunately, he doesn’t actually articulate this and instead dismisses ADB’s argument as an opinion. That’s a terrible response though not technically necessarily untrue. Some people may indeed feel life in mainland China is better “in general”. Some people may think it is better to be poor and have one’s sovereignty than being under the influence, to whatever degree, of foreign powers. North Korea feels this way, Junche and all that, but so do many nationalists the world over. Whatever, it was dumb of him to respond the way he did anyway.

            Here’s where anon101 jumps in and tries to dismiss David Webb’s protest that its unfair to compare the governance of less people over the governance of more people. anon101 tries to argue that size of country and population has no bearing on governance and the only reason Chinese people have a “crappy mentality” (which is his shorthand for why mainland Chinese people don’t criticize Mao as commander asked) is because of Mao. Contrary to “saving the Chinese race” as David Webb argued, anon101 says Mao turned them into “locusts”.

            David Webb jumps on the “crappy mentality” characterization. With consistency, David Webb questions if a mentality is “crappy” just because it doesn’t match what “white people” think. His fallacy here is conflating being “anti-Mao” with being “white” and thus anyone who is “anti-Mao” must be “white” or otherwise subservent to whites. Oh, the idiocy of this line of thinking would be breathtaking if it weren’t so commonly espoused on cS, just in the other direction.

            So David Webb here suggests HK, Macau, and TW have anti-Mao attitudes because of subconscious influence by “white” people (“places that were colonized”). Right, people in these places only think Mao is an overall bad just because of white people, not because of any number of other reasons, like simply believing he did more bad than good, or the bad doesn’t outweigh the good, or maybe (in the eyes of KMT supporters) that any good Mao did could’ve been done better by the KMT. David Webb is an idiot here because on top of needlessly racializing this, he has disrespected a complex issue…by racializing it. Sigh. Again, breathtaking, if it weren’t otherwise so common on cS.

            Of all the aspects of this back and forth, I really did not think anon101 made a relevant “key point”, much less ask a question that David Webb avoided. anon101 wasn’t asking if HK, Macau, and Taiwan had a better quality of life. He invoked those places to argue that Chinese people in these places also generally look unfavorably on Mao, so it isn’t being “Chinese” that explains why mainland Chinese look favorably on Mao; it’s because of Mao ruling mainland China that makes mainland Chinese look favorably on Mao. In disagreement with David Webb saying Chinese like Mao because he did more good than bad, anon101 is saying it’s only because of Mao’s “braiwashing”, to put it another way.

            Therefore, your question entering the conversation doesn’t make sense and also opens up the problem of being related to Tibet and Xinjiang, which would not help anyone effectively challenge David Webb’s position and instead just distract us all into the general hypocrisies of geopolitics. I wanted to avoid that, well, because I’m still somewhat curious about what exactly David Webb meant by “saving the Chinese race”. Him struggling to defend that remark would much more effectively confront him with the brashness of his stance here than arguing that living conditions in Taiwan are better than in mainland China. Even if that is true, it doesn’t actually challenge the reasons he’s citing for still seeing Mao more favorably than unfavorably. To me, he didn’t avoid answering a question anon101 didn’t ask, and even if anon101 did ask it, it doesn’t do anything to his argument; it only opens up a distracting can of worms.

            I, admittedly prejudicially, think Westerners with more critical thinking education should’ve known better.

            Whew. Hope this explains where I was coming from when I replied to you.

          • Markoff

            actually to be fair you should take tibet and xingjiang out of equation, only few Chinese live there, so the density will be much higher if you take away this half of “China”

            Xingjiang – 1,664,900 km2 – 23mil pop.
            Tibet – 1,228,400 km2 – 3mil pop.
            rest of China – 9,596,961 km2 – two above = 6.7mil km2 – 1.339bil – 26mil = 1.313bil pop. = 195 people / km2 (503/square mile)

            for comparison Germany has 225 people / km2 (UK 255/km2) so anyway your point is good China is not so populated as some EU countries, but France has 116p/km2, Spain 92 p/km2, Poland 120 p/km2, , so compared to some other countries it’s more populated and can be very little bit excuse especially if something like this happen in urban areas like Beijing with 20mil population

          • Kai

            Did you really miss his point that it’s generally harder to govern a larger group of people over a smaller group of people?

          • anon101

            yes, Its also harder to build a bigger house, no thats a lie, you use the same principal but on a larger scale. if you can run a country of 1 million people, you can run a country of 1 billion people. The British did rather well when they ruled over 1/4 of the worlds land mass and 1/5th of the worlds population while constantly at war with Spain, Portugal, France and so on, hell their subjects were not even on the same continent, so saying that governing a larger group of people is so much harder, how come the white people you hate so much managed it under harder conditions.

          • Kai

            Uh, what makes you think I hate white people?

            I can’t fathom why you’d resist acknowledging the point made except out of stubborness. Using the same principle on a larger scale is saying it is easier to manage myself than it is to manage myself and another person, then expanding that to 1 million vs. 1 billion people. The more actors you have a system, the more potential for chaos. So yes, it is harder to build a bigger house. It takes more time or more manpower, more resources, greater consideration of material composition for things like load bearing, etc. etc. etc.

          • mr.wiener

            Just because someone doesn’t agree with you it does not automatically follow that they hate your race.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            Not only more prosperous, but they have more freedom, maintained their traditional culture better, have less pollution, better education, less government control of information, less fear of imprisonment for political reasons, less fear of having their home seized for government projects …

            Sure, it’s an opinion. I’ll go for that.

          • David Webb

            Did you read about London’s pollution problem in the 1950s called the “great smog”, did you read about America’s pollution problem during the industrial age. You want to be judgmental on a group of people while dismissing the factual reality of the situation and your own past.

            Less government control of information is something to be praised? Less government control of information can cause tremendous disaster if the nation’s overall educational level is still under developed. Look at all the riots happening around democratic countries right now at this very moment. Ukraine, Thailand, and even India,

            What you want to do is to impose your Western ideology with liberalism to completely white wash an entire civilization. And you are only comfortable with places that you have colonized like HK, Macau, Taiwan (by Japanese). You praise those places because you have tainted those places with your past imperialism and your own values, therefore you praise those places and very comfortable living in those places.

            Imprisonment for political reason, last time i checked, Liu Xiao Bo was a pro Western radical intellectual who said he wished entire China should have been colonized along with Hong Kong for the next 100 years by the British. Of course you would get off on guys like him, i mean he is figuratively sucking on a white cock. Why wouldn’t you love a guy like him? He is the uncle tom of China, what he has said is the equivalent of a black man saying i wish White American slavers would’ve enslaved all Black people for the next 100 more years. Liu Xiao Bo is a guy who supported the Iraq War. An illegal war conducted by USA to invade a sovereign nation that was based on a lie. How can a white man not support a guy like him? How can a white man not protest about his imprisonment. The things Liu Xiao Bo have said and written is nothing short of treason. And treason is a capital punishment in the USA, so China has showed enough humanity to not shoot him on sight.

            One of the injustices was the labor education camp in China, that was used not to imprison traitors like Liu Xiao Bo but people who speak out against corruption. But every labor education camp in China is now officially closed. Would I have wish that the labor camp was closed earlier? Of course, but it’s still better late than never.

            As for government project, some of the government project is too important not to be pushed forward in order to benefit the entire well-being of the nation, while I feel sadden that some Chinese are forced to move out of their current location to make room for railroad or whatever other major project, it is worth the price for the greater good.

            My conclusion is this, do not for one second think that I am trying to convince you of anything. I am simply laying out my logic here and exposing your hypocrisy, I know for a fact, people like you have preconceived notion of China and you have your own political agenda to dislike people like Mao and the current Chinese government. You do not like China because it’s a real threat. You want to “pacify” China like how you tried to do with Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan. Just what i have said on top that people like you love political figures like MLK, Ghandi, Mandela. People who are passive and used “non-violent” movement to take it in the ass real real deep by the white man, in order to change their miserable circumstances that was initiated by the white men. You praise those people because those people pose absolutely no threat to your dominance and culture. While true revolutionary like Mao who used warfare to take out imperialistic forces is condemned and demonized by people like you, because you wish China should have had a Ghandi, a MLK, or Mendela, instead of Mao. Because it would’ve resulted in “non-violent” movement that just takes it deep in the ass, but that did not happen so therefore you are simply just bitter.

          • mr.wiener

            David you seem to be a young man with a lot to say, so I’m not sure how to tell you this without sounding too patronizing.
            China is in some ways a lot like yourself. an emerging nation with more than a hint of past grievance and a bit of a chip on its shoulder. The past transgressions of the western countries were shameful examples of what powerful nations can do to those less powerful. You talked of the mistakes of the west and its environmental catastrophes. These are all true….which it is even more important that China learns from these mistakes before it repeats them ,themselves.
            The finger pointing of butthurt whities [self included] aside China must face up to its own past, by itself to be able to make its great future.

          • David Webb

            “Learn from these mistakes before it repeats them.” Mind you, imperialism and industrialization were not mistakes for the West, nor do they view it as a mistake. Imperialism was not a mistake in every sense of the word, It was a form of oppression used by the West through any means necessary for the benefit of its own ethnicity, weather it’s in power, wealth, and status.

            China don’t have to face up to its own past, at least to Westerners, because the West has never faced up to its own past. If the West truly wanted to face up to its past, then we will be talking about a monumental amount of reparation to the people who suffered from Imperialism. So in a sense, Mao’s bad policies are absolutely nothing in comparison to Western imperialism. We are talking about cultural and ethnic genocide here. If you want me to be specific, I certainly can. Filipino people’s last names are almost all exclusively Spanish name with a mixture of other European last names, they were also forced to learn Catholicism like the Hawaiians, using Europeanized Christianity (White Jesus) to wipe out all local religion of the natives. That is a form of cultural genocide. As for ethnic genocide, a good portion of the Filipino population today is mixed with Spanish blood. Many of the women there were raped. That was ethnic genocide. Even though the genocide was never completed, aside from South America, North America, and Australia, because it is very hard to completely wipe out a people. You can certainly psychologically make a group of people to feel inferior due to systemic imperialism, that in my opinion is a form of genocide of the people’s soul. This is a very small example of the product of Western imperialism. Hawaiian population today is barely recognizable due to mix breeding through rape and cultural imperialism. So imperialism was never a mistake, imperialism have done a great service for Europeans. Morally it was possibility the worst thing ever happened to this planet, but this world is not run by moral. This world is run by guns and wealth. Lastly, cultural dominance is all relative to the power of that country’s military and economy. Who ever has the biggest gun and most wealth, thus has the best culture. Because you use gun and wealth to overwrite other people’s culture. You honestly think American culture is popular today because it delivers the best moral compass and sophistication? Just go watch Miley Cyrus twerking.

            Honestly, I only reply to people who i assume to be somewhat intelligent, some of the people here whom replied to my message are just down right ignorant.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            If you say imperialism is not wrong for the west – is not wrong for China? If something is wrong, shouldn’t be wrong for everyone? What about pollution? Pollution is not wrong for western society or China? What about elections? What wrong with democracy and elections? If people vote for their own leaders – they’re choosing them, aren’t they? That’s not imperialism, is it?

            Why do you take on a western imperialist name, David Webb?

            Some of the facts you cite – they came via the western media originally, didn’t they? I know most of what I know about the mistreatment of Native Americans and blacks was via the public school system. That’s not facing up to it?

            Is intermixing really really, uh, genocide? I know a woman who’s part Hawaiian. She’s also part Irish and Chinese. She’s proud of her background, but I suppose should she really be alarmed because, no doubt, her origin is really one of genocide. (Chinese genocide, no less.)

            I’m so glad you aren’t prejudiced. It’s very good that you never reduce your judgment down people’s ethnic or racial origin.

            It’s good to pick one example (Miley Cyrus) and use it to represent all of American culture. I’m sure we could never, ever find anything embarrassing in Chinese pop culture.

            Try checking this out sometime: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

          • David Webb

            David Webb is a fictional real name of the character Jason Bourne from the movie Bourne Identity. I wouldn’t look too deep into a person’s internet account name and relate it to being imperialist name…

            Intermixing during imperialism is not genocide? Then why during reconstruction and jimcrow law, the white men was able to lynch the black men just by taking a small glance at a white woman? Was it simply just because of insecurity? The white man did that because he know how important racial purity is, because during imperialism he knows by intermixing a group of people on massive scale, it can slowly erode their culture and ethnic identity, he would go to such a great length to restrict interracial marriage because he knows. They even made laws to forbid interracial marriage and relationship, mostly apply to men of other ethnicity marrying or even dating a white woman.

            I am a realist, not being prejudice, i have no problem with white people on a personal level what so ever, but when you are going to talk about politics, I have to be as real as I can be.

            Btw, Mily Cyrus is mainstream American culture. It’s not something on the fringe. Nicki Minaj is also main stream. I loved American music that is from the 80s and 90s. It was very classy and enjoyable.

          • Lord_Helmet

            Is your favorite rapper Will Smith? You seem like the type.

          • David Webb

            My favorite rapper is the pre-mtv award show Kayne West. He made some very creative rap songs, true story.

          • mr.wiener

            Any chance of you replying a little more briefly?
            I’m not looking for a scatter-gun of examples of western misrule. That is just using the suffering of others long dead to make ammunition for long-winded arguments.
            What about where the world is headed now?

          • Alan Dale Brown

            Sure, I like MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela. They achieved their goals without using violence, without compromising the integrity of their race or culture, without limiting freedom of expression.

            I don’t think I’m terribly racist. If I were, I’d be in an awkward situation. I’m engaged to a Taiwanese. I remotely manage a group of software programmers in mainland China, and try to get them to succeed. My boss is Indian. His boss is mainland Chinese. His boss is European American. His boss – the head of the company – is African American. I’m quite fine with all of this.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            Here’s real proof of the difference. I was in Kinmen a few years ago – where the Nationalists finally blocked the advance of the communists – walking around the main downtown area. This is a small island just a couple km off the coast of mainland China, near Xiamen, but is controlled by Taiwan. It was shelled for many decades – usually by artillery shells that had propaganda pamphlets – but, for a few spells, live artillery (such 1958, where 2500 of the island’s inhabitants were killed). I was walking through the main business district, and saw a storefront filled with pictures honoring Mao. I asked about it.

            My host – a retired ROC officer – shrugged it off, and said, “it’s a free country”. I don’t think he was the least bit worried about it.

            I think, even now, you wouldn’t have a storefront in the PRC filled with pictures of Chiang Kai Shek.

          • Markoff

            so why is it good to have united china if that size is causing so many problems? basically look at any other place where Chinese live outside China and everywhere they are doing better than in China, so not so sure if the concept of big united China was that good for Chinese people…

          • Kai

            Living standards are better in certain small North European countries than the US, but why does the US insist on being united? Come on, man, you’re asking a stupid question even you could field reasonable answers for. What’s the point? Of all the more obnoxious things David Webb has said, you choose this to argue about?

          • Alan Dale Brown

            From my understanding, most people in Taiwan either would be okay with being reunited with mainland China – once they actually trusted them – or they want independence. Of those who would be re-united – they’re commonly people who fled the mainland to get to Taiwan, and identify with mainland China. Of those who want independence – they’re typically the people who have family history that goes back a few hundred years. Recall, for the last 130 years, Taiwan was united with Japan for far more years than it was with mainland China. My understanding is that Taiwan suffered the least abuse of all the places Japan occupied – that they had some positive impact. I’m always surprised when I run into Taiwanese who have a higher opinion of Japanese rule than Chiang Kai-Shek’s rule. But I digress; the point is, Taiwan has a unique history, and many see themselves distinct. (My fiance is *definitely* *not* among them; she doesn’t trust the communists, but thinks independence would be terrible.)

            Why does Canada insist on being independent of the United States? You know, one of the purposes of the war of 1812 was to try to coax them into joining us; it failed spectacularly. We have a lot of common history, but not enough. Why isn’t Latin America united? Simon Bolivar – the leader of the independence movement away from Spain, was incapable of unifying all the countries – in spite of many common elements of history.

          • Kai

            As someone who understands why its unfair and ultimately ignorant (often conveniently and intentionally so) to compare Taiwan to China, maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by Mao having saved the Chinese race. That’s a pretty bold and broad assertion. What exactly did he do that, if not done, would’ve meant the demise of the Chinese race?

        • David Webb

          While I agree that Taiwan’s standard of living is better than many places in mainland China, that’s not to say it is better than every single place in China. You have to put things in perspective in terms of size and scale when you do this kind of comparison. You can say life in Cuba is a lot better than life in USA if you compare Cuba to Detroit ,Michigan.

          • ex-expat

            Ok..Taiwan is better than every single city on the mainland.

          • Irvin

            Any country that have facebook and youtube is better than china, you have any idea the amount of crap for media I have to watch here?

          • ex-expat

            lol…agreed. Chinese tv, IMO, is unwatchable.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            Taiwan is a puppy of US, it is better to be poor than somebody’s puppy.

          • Irvin

            I’m convinced you’re an imbecile.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            The conviction is mutual.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            Why, because it’s an ally? It would be very interesting for you to explain how the US keeps Taiwan from determining its own political future (the PRC threatens it, not the US). People in Taiwan have a lot more personal autonomy than those in the PRC. If anyone is a puppy, it’s those who spout the communist party line against their own personal interest.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            Ally? Pawn, more likely. US have been at wars all over and have 800s bases overseas. It encircled the coasts of china and have lots of allies, except US dont do ‘allies’, its their way or no way.
            I am not spouting the communist party line, I happened to think a country like china should be strong enough to stand against the perpetual treats on her doorsteps.
            Against my personal interest? Too many chinese have sold out against the interest of their country for ‘personal interest’, thank you.

          • mr.wiener

            Interesting to see how many Chinese are getting foreign passports and are moving to the west or would if they could.

            China is still new at the making “pawns” game. The CCP’s idea of courtship is more akin to date rape, particularly in its own back yard. I hope they learn to use more carrot than stick with potential “pawns”. Then you would see the game for what it is, not slave states, puppets or client kingdoms, but more like a meat market pickup joint where the girls at the bar rush to the guy with money but also a bit more game than the other big daddies.

          • Sam Peng Bam

            LOL, Not palatable either ways, this geopolitical games.

          • mr.wiener

            ..but it is the only game in town.

          • nickhz

            date rape? in china? on any level? no way!!!!!! (intense sarcasm)

          • Alan Dale Brown

            The US sells weapons to Taiwan. The PRC aims weapons at Taiwan. They’re nobody’s pawn. ’nuff said.

          • Kai

            Anyone who is reliant on anyone can be that person’s pawn. Taiwan CAN and HAS been a pawn. Let’s not be too absolute.

          • nickhz

            every single city!!!!! i didn’t know this was even a question

          • Q Ball

            Taiwans standard of living is better because they used the scientific method to run their economy. Thats just the fact. The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were big failures in respect to scientific process. Only recently has China caught up. Their economic policies are actually better now, than the USA, or at least similar. In the USA Democrats and Republicans are fighting thus neutering the power of the Fed. But China doesn’t have this problem because they are a dictatorship. Buy China stocks now. Pollution is bullish (it means economic growth).

          • Kai

            Some strange comments. I don’t think many people in Taiwan would say they used the “scientific method” to run their economy given that it has in many ways been stagnant for quite some time.

          • Lord_Helmet

            “Scientific Method” haha what the fuck are you smoking son?!
            Taiwans Hypothesis: If we do everything opposite of they mainland, we will be more educated, classier, cleaner and more civilized.
            Outcome: Proven

          • Q Ball

            Its called the Asian model. The only countries who gained first world status are countries who are following the Asian model. They always start with military dictatorships. (Taiwan was a dictatorship). Mind you that none of the Latin American or African or Middle Eastern countries or even India (democracy in India is a problem) gained first world status, even though IMF keep giving them loans? Because they were following outdated Western economic models.

            Buy China stocks now.

      • MidniteOwl

        so in other words, he’s 70% ok but 30% asshole? lol.
        you know, buy putting educated people and people who could have made China a better China in prison or killed… just cause they had a brain, for me at least makes him a complete jerk. 90% asshole 10% ok.

        • Guest

          When not speaking politically Hitler was a fun guy who knew how to threw a party. Totally redeemed!

          Mao was a hero to his people, who with one hand won world war two, beat the Japanese and the traitorous Kuomintang as well as his own unworthy citizens while clutching a bottle of China’s finest baijiu. He had more wives and children than fingers. Why would anyone not look up to him? Without him China would have lost to Japan and the Chinese race would no longer exist.

          • anon101

            yes, mao defeated the japanese invasion, (firstly the japanese were spread all over the place fighting americans, secondly japan got nuked by the ameriancs, thridly the KTM did most the fighting while the CCP waited in the shadows, occasionally back stabbing and shooting KTM members in the back while htey were fighting the japanese army,) finely when japan was weak, the ktm had been almost destroyed thanks to actually fighting, the ccp came out and fought them both. so mao didnt really save china, he saved himself until everone else had almost won, then went in and killed the weaker winning army of the KTM and forced them onto taiwan where they reside today,, and if you ever go to taiwan, you will see its a better place than china, go to HK and you see its a better place than china.. china is so fucked up because mao installed this fuck everyone else mentality in people. way to go, he made a national of selfish pricks. yay, what a savoir.

          • Kai

            Your points would’ve been fine and good if you didn’t indulge in putting down an entire nation of people.

        • Q Ball

          You are viewing chinese from a western standpoint. Mao is everything a chinese want to be. rich and powerful. people in china look up to these people and look down on the poorer people. Also, Mao was cunning. Cunningness is a virtue in China. Everybody wants to be the fox. Why is the fox a hero? Because he outsmarts others, he can be filial to his own family. The more money you take from outsiders the more money your family has. That makes one a good guy. So cunning people are good guy. But in the West Madoff is a bad guy, in China he would be a good guy.

          • nickhz

            but when you are the leader of a country, the “country” is your family… and those are the people he “outsmarted” your argument is insane

          • Q Ball

            not always. for example mao outsmarted Russia many times. In case of vietnam for example who was russias ally. mao invaded vietnam put 3 million army on the border and was ready to fight. Russia backed down. This was ballsy, kinda like JF Kennedy in Cuba. you must realize Russia forced China to give up mongolia and parts of eastern china (vladivostok used to be chinese) during the 1900 so no wonder chinese are proud of the fact they paid back russia.

          • Kai

            Way to use western stereotypes about Chinese people. Everyone values cunning. The idea that Chinese people equate cunning with screwing others over with “virtue” is a retarded exaggeration. Stop it.

      • markus peg

        Quote “Mao saved not only China as a country/nation but he saved the entire Chinese race.”
        Bit extreme don’t you think? He saved China and Chinese from other Chinese (KMT)? Or are you talking about Japan? in which case it would be unfair to take all the credit as i think KMT and other nations all played a part.

        • Kai

          I think its clear he admires the man Mao was and not exactly the man Mao became over time. Mao wouldn’t be the only person in history to have let power get to his head.

          • markus peg

            To tell the truth this thread now has too many comments all over the place for me to follow, i was replying to one comment he made and that’s the only one of his i read.

            He can admire who ever he likes that’s an opinion. My opinion is that regardless of Mao being forgiven or not, all sides of the story should be taught and known by the younger generations, rather than glorify Mao and only being told the good parts.

            The Chinese often complain about the Japanese teaching a one sided version of world war two history. China can teach about Mao without demonizing or favoring him but telling it how it really was and let the people decide for them selves.

            Our topic is about Mao and China, however, i will also mention that China is not the only place to do this kind of thing. Certain historical figures can be taught in a positive light in their respective countries. I disagree with that, and believe it should be more open for debate and personal reasoning rather than simply saying someone is/was great without knowing the full story.

          • Kai

            True, this thread is a monster, and I agree with the rest of your comment.

      • commander

        Yeah, you’re right. I am a Korean.

        It’s understandable the Chinese are hostile about 19th and 20th westetn imperialism, which all started with the Opium War and torn apart the entire territory into pieces for exploitation, and such antagonism lingers especially when western countries charaterize China as irresponsible and troubling in their news reports describing suppression od human rights in China as if the western countries forgot what they did to China one century ago.

        Then, communist forces kicked out imperial forces and found the PRC in 1951 after western-backed nationalist forces.

        In this sense, Mao may be a hero who deserves praise for his role in salvaging the country from teetering on the brink of collapse.

        As for what the Chinese think of as 30 percent mistakes, I think if China has a political system where people’s voices are more reflected in governing, the percent proportion will take a dramatic upward course.

        It remains to be seen whether Mao evalution will change as China transform itself politically and economically.

        I think it’s too early to paint him more in positive light.

      • Cameron

        Er, dude. “Chinese” isn’t a race. It’s this thing called a “Nationality”. Communist education for you right there.

      • Cameron

        Is he forgiven by the millions killed by his idiotic policies? What about their families and loved ones?

        And a poll on Mao?? Hahaha. Conducted by an organ of the CCP on a brainwashed population? I’m sure there was a very frank discussion of his crimes. Not like people would get arrested or anything for drawing attention to his defects in public. Not like people are brainwashed since birth. Not like his face isnt printed on the money in your pocket. I’m sure it was all very impartial.

        Breaking news of a poll in North Korea.
        We have learnt since birth that the founder of our nation is a faultless Godlike creature. On balance do you think he was good or bad?
        A) Good.
        B) Bad *

        *You and your extended family will be kidnapped this very night and spend the rest of your days enduring torture and backbreaking labour.

      • Cameron

        It is not “Being White” that makes one anti Mao. It is having access to the facts – being educated in a tolerant open society. Millions of Chinese view him as one of the worst men in history, Weirdly, they tend to be well-educated Chinese who are able to access Non Communist China education sources and don’t need to pass the Communist GaoKao.

      • Cameron

        Lets also remember it was not Mao and the Communists who were the chief architects of holding back the Japanese. It was the NATIONALISTS.

        The nationalists – now in Taiwan – saved China from being overrun by the Japanese. Never forget it.

        Mao was an excellent militairy strategist, a fantastic opportunist, and perhaps the worst most destructive political leader in human history.

      • nickhz

        the polls say 80% right and 20% wrong because the people are terrified that if they speak their true feelings they will be punished. i have this conversation often, not because i have an overly strong opinion, but because i want to know what people here in china think about it…. i’ll form my own opinion …. and i have yet to meet a chinese person under the age of 35 who feels he was 80% right and 20% wrong…. just my experience here

      • Kai

        Aw crap, now it’s definitely going to be all racial up in here.

        • mr.wiener

          Racial chauvinist tits from both side lose interest fast. Tell me when it is safe to come back, I’ll be next door looking at the the photos of that rich Chinese business woman when she was young and wearing her PRCA uniform…Eye Candy!!

    • DavidisDawei

      I am not Chinese, but I will share with you what I am often told when i ask ‘How’, ‘Why’
      when they have no credible reply…
      “You are not Chinese. You would not understand.”

      As time goes by, fewer people will have experienced Mao first hand…

      I have found VERY few Chinese admit anything is wrong in China (to a foreigner) unless they know you well.
      It isn’t fear, but a stubborn, Nationalistic pride (to the point of stupidity).

      • Irvin

        No, it’s human nature to lie and be defensive to strangers.

        • Markoff

          not really, in developed countries are people not afraid to criticize their government publicly and agree with outsiders if they are right, because they are not brainwashed like Chinese

          • Kai

            Exaggeration. It’s all about whether or not you feel threatened by the person you’re talking to. There is no shortage of people in developed countries telling groups they consider to be “outsiders” (Mexicans, Muslims, immigrants in general) to fuck off back where they came from when they don’t like the attitudes or the criticisms and complaints they’re hearing from them.

            There’s no question that a lot of Chinese are not immediately open and forthcoming when it comes to discussing the problems of modern China or Chinese history with foreigners, but it really should not be this damn hard for people to understand why that may be so. Some of you guys unfortunately come across as having selective memories and double-standards. How many foreigners come to your country and are eager to discuss what’s wrong with the country when you don’t know them very well?

          • ex-expat

            You know very well that there is no comparison between how China acts towards foreigners and how the West does. People also cut in line everywhere, does that mean people can’t complain about it? Why do you get so defensive, and where are you when the Wu Mao trolls come out spewing complete and other bullshit?

          • Kai

            You know very well how “China” acts towards foreigners is a broad spectrum of things, both pleasant and unpleasant, advantageous and disadvantageous. Sometimes you’re targeted as a sucker to exploit, cheat, con, scam. Other times you’re fawned at, excessively flattered, unequally catered to, treated as a class of human higher than the locals. Foreigners both suffer and exploit these things. It isn’t equal for all foreigners of course, just as it isn’t equal for all foreigners in the West.

            Why do you think my remarking about Markoff’s comment as an “exaggeration” means people can’t complain about things? People complain about things on cS all the time. People make remarks about those complaints all the time too. Someone disagreeing with you doesn’t automatically mean they want to restrict your freedom. Holy cow.

            Plus, you interpret my comment as preventing you from complaining about things and you then ask ME why I get so defensive? You’re kidding, right?

            Selective reading and memory if you don’t think I respond to the complete and utter bullshit spewed by what you assume to be “wumao” trolls. In this thread alone, I’ve disagreed and been critical of comments made by ostensibly “pro-China” or “defensive of China” commenters like David Webb and Q Ball. If you want to accuse me of some sort of bias, you better try harder. Or would you like me to accuse you of bias for not responding to the reliably racist, derogatory, and offensive comments we see on cS? Where were you? Huh?

            See how misguided that is?

            But let’s get back to the topic: Would you concede that it is not unfathomable that people might be defensive around strangers they fear of being intent on bashing their country or people? Is this not common in human nature as Irvin said?

          • ex-expat

            I could have written it a little more clearly, that was my fault.

            Certain behaviors can be found across the entire human race, sure. Nobody actually likes strangers talking garbage about their country, but when you say “How many foreigners come to your country and are eager to discuss what’s wrong with the country when you don’t know them very well?” I feel like that is assuming a couple things. In my experience, many Chinese are overly defensive about many, many things, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be in response to a stranger, or in response to a verbal attack on the country, the culture, or whatever. I feel like many Chinese are not even able to discuss things, let alone take criticism. This is what I meant when I wrote regarding the “comparison between how China acts towards foreigners and how the West does.” but like I said, I thought it was clear at the time what I meant, but perhaps not. If you do not see how China has a major inferiority complex which manifests in the aforementioned ways, then we can just agree to disagree.

            Look, I am by no means the only one who sometimes thinks its like you come from out of the woodworks to refute statements, and I often feel that it comes off in kind of pro-China, apologist way, like “it really should not be this damn hard for people to understand why that may be so.” Does it matter why? This is a terrible analogy, but if someone is abused as a child, and then kills someone, one can maybe understand why that person was driven to kill, but they still killed a person. If you truly feel like you are being objective, then fine, but there is a reason why others feel the way they do.

          • Kai

            Thanks for reconsidering how you expressed your thoughts. I think everyone has at one point or another realized a negative reaction is one that could’ve been helped.

            People are prickly about certain subjects and more so about criticism everywhere. I personally don’t notice it being scientifically more prevalent with Chinese people in general. Since I can’t imagine people being able scientifically determine that specifically Chinese people are more overly defensive than others, it makes me wonder if they are assuming a couple of things themselves. I think this is a fair and defensible comment.

            I actually happen to openly suggest inferiority complexes (but more accurately “insecurities”) are involved in a lot of “Chinese” responses to things. Markoff’s comment is pretty unfair though, suggesting a difference that is objectively not really that stark and chalking it all up to Chinese being “brainwashed” as a given. There’s a lot of assumptions in that, a lot of taking certain things for granted, a lot of convenient selectivity in memory, a lot of willingness to conflate.

            Does it matter why? I think it does. I think it certainly matters WHY people respond the way they do. If an American person becomes defensive in reaction to a conversation I attempted with them, I’d want to know why because I don’t think I had any intent to antagonize them personally. I’d want to know to what extent I inadvertently rubbed them the wrong way. The only time I would think it doesn’t matter why they are defensive is if I intended to antagonize them. But that’d make me an unapolgetic asshole.

            I’m glad you recognize why your analogy is terrible. Why someone would be defensive in a discussion involving criticisms and complaints about their country and people nonetheless strikes me as qualitatively different from why someone would kill someone. It is disheartening that people would prefer to dismiss Chinese defensiveness as “brainwashed” instead of recognizing it as being a fairly common and HUMAN reaction in such circumstances. Why is there such a negative reaction to a fair assessment of a behavior? What do you mean “does it matter why?”

            Of course there’s a reason why anyone feels the way they do. The thing is, not all reasons are equal. Why shouldn’t we ask why we think “brainwashing” is an acceptable answer to why some Chinese get defensive in the face of foreign criticism vs. “it’s human nature to be defensive in front of strangers”?

          • Dr Sun

            guess you’ve never been to a council estate in the UK, lets say Bristol, there they just torch foreigners, but thats cool right
            and please don’t respond with the usual crap ” I never said bad things don’t happen in the west, but………

          • Insomnicide

            Well if you put it like that, in such an insulting and aggressive manner. Of course they’re going to be defensive about it.

            No one likes being outright verbally attacked by strangers about their country and their people.

          • Dr Sun

            rubbish, criticize America, I dare you

        • Gordon Gogodancer

          Everybody is a stranger

        • Reptilian

          No Irvin, it’s not human nature to be defensive to strangers. In American talk shows and news editorials, the media lampoons their own kind (fat Americans, entitled kids, trashy culture). Ditto European tabloids for their own shortcomings. It’s only in China that people refuse to “lose face” even when their shortcomings are so evident. Bo Yang encapsulated it in his “The Ugly Chinaman”: the attitude of 死不认错–they’d rather die than admit mistakes. If you’ve lived in China like I have, you’d experience this firsthand.

      • Jahar

        I find that hard to believe. now, if you said they said, “you can’t understand,” well, now that’s believable.

    • filabusta

      I’ve heard “He was 70% right, 30% wrong”

  • Tamil Tiger

    It should be relocated to the rubbish dump. Mao is a useless shit anyway.

  • FYIADragoon

    I’m surprised that children are allowed near a pedophile’s statue. Welp, it is modern day China….

  • Mighty曹

    So sad… dozens of pigeons will have to find a new home.

  • pfcwms

    More waste of taxpayer money moving this Stalinesque cement statue around.

    • YourSupremeCommander

      A drop in the Pacific.

  • Stefan Xu

    Mao Zedong – the founder of China.

    • Mighty曹

      Qin Shi Huang = founder of China
      Mao Zedong = founder of Communist China

      • YourSupremeCommander

        Grand Son Middle Mountain = founder of Republic of China

        • markus peg

          aka, Sun Yat-sen (for those that want to know)

          Mao Xinyu (Mao zedong’s grandso) = Founder of the modern Chinese obesity society also called da fei rou club for short.

  • Irvin

    LOL even mao have to give way to chengguan!

  • Markoff

    and now if they would remove the mass murderer from Forbidden City and replace him on all banknotes + introduced 500 and 1000RMB banknotes of course in plastic that would be awesome…

  • Cameron

    I guess the difference in opinion on Mao’s mistakes between Chinese people and other people stems from the fact that for Chinese people brought up on their sanitized history, the greatest famine in history, to take one area of dispute, was a “mistake”. To others, the facts tell a different story. For example, increasing food exports by 50% at a time when many citizens are, er, eating one another – a rather difficult phenomenon to “not notice” one would think – arguably stretches the definition of “Mistake”

    • Sam Peng Bam

      For the first 5 to 10 years of Mao’s rule, the population increased, hunger almost eradicated, life span increased and health improved. The regional leaders were promoted for bumper harvests and demoted for failing to reached targets. Factional power struggles ensured the failing of crops for two successive years were not reported. Not only that, ever more fantasy reports were submitted.

      That was the making of a calamity which does not condone the sheer stupidity, especially when there are plenty of similar lessons from the dynastic past.

      • Cameron

        A normal leader focuses not merely on what is achieved but HOW it is achieved. Simply out, Mao was not up to the task of managing a country, let alone something as large and complex as China. He wanted China to become a global economic superpower.

        Due to his stupidity/God complex, he fantasized that a country of 99% uneducated peasants with a population thirty or forty times that of, say, the UK, could industrialize in a fraction of the time. If that meant tens of millions of Chinese starved to death getting there then so be it. He basically said as much himself. However, his ideology was a total and utter failure and tens of millions starved to death for nothing. Call it mistake or call it utter stupidity of a power crazed dictator.

      • moop

        “For the first 5 to 10 years of Mao’s rule, the population increased, hunger almost eradicated, life span increased and health improved.”

        who would have guessed population would increase after a world war and a civil war that followed that?

  • nickhz

    haha awesome

  • babybear

    ah so sick of these hypocrite gwailos here
    plzzz leave China alone
    you guys should go Africa, there are more people who need your helps and worried. Aslo marry a african lady (if you dont like white woman anymore) and stop chasing after Chinese girls.

    • Probotector

      So you don’t like criticism of China, and the best you can come up with is a racial slur and the cliched “don’t touch our women” threat? If you don’t like what is said about China on a public forum, then debate rationally like the other pro-China commentators are. Also, if Chinese females wish to be with a white guy, it’s not any business of yours.

      • babybear

        ok. i just give you guys other option. Dont you whites love dark/tanned skin with ass and tits ? i think Black womans are perfect for white guys. Leave those materialistic Chinese b@#3chs for Chinese guys, we all know male/famale ratio in China.

        • Zappa Frank

          in effect Africans women are really something, never been there but for sure not worse than Chinese girls…

          • babybear

            yeah i know, You should go there.you guys have more choices than Chineses man in China. I dont understand why would someone (foreigners) would want to be with Chinese girls. Also i heard my friends said in US the white male/asian female couples are very common, i find it so weird, compare to other races they are not sexy both in face and body plus they are very materialistic. And white/black mixed look more interesting than white/asian mixed.
            damn im sound like a self-hated lol

          • Lord_Helmet

            You sound like a Thai transvestite.

          • babybear

            what? how? why?????????????

          • Zappa Frank

            i’ll tell that i basiacaly agree, i mean i don’t find asians girls to be that sexy and recently is true they became like a fetish thing for a lot of wierd guys..something disturbing.. they are like all the other girls in this world, some beauty some ugly..
            however i don’t think people change continents just to have some girls or just because girls there are more sexy.. if that would be the case i think most would point brazil maybe.. Some people are occasionaly in china and obviously look for girls.. some are with girls that just happen to be chinese or asians and not because of that..

          • babybear

            yeah right those are Yellow fevers. sometimes i feel bad for our fellow Chinese/asian girls who end up with those weird dudes. plus they are not even good looking (probadly losers in the western) or so much older than the girls.

          • Zappa Frank

            like chinese people often say this kind of guys usually end up with a girl that is considered unactractive by other chinese..in this case i think is a winwin situation, they both can be happy…however there are even girls that are dumbed by them, because these guys that all of the sudden pass from zero to hero can finally relize their hidden dreams of being playboys…
            i want to point out that those kinds of playboys with yellow fever and also those kinds of girls that just like “whites”, are usually not apreciated by other westeners..

          • babybear

            to be fair, it should have term call those girls like “white fever” or “white fetish” ? i think it not working if there are only Yellow fever involve. kinda embarrassing how many Chinese girls are so easy for white guys nowaday.
            the worse is now many asian girls think they’re hot stuff but actually no one take them srs except YVers.

    • markus peg

      Some girl the other side of the world is thinking this:
      “Plzzz leave the west alone
      You Chinese girls stop steeling our men! Why don’t Chinese girls go for African men (If they don’t want Chinese men anymore) and stop chasing after white boys.”

      • babybear

        haha that’s interesting. but you should know that Asian girls (or Asians in general) prefer light/pale skin so it’s understandable that they prefer white than black (ofc if they dont like Asian guys anymore). But dont White guys like dark skin, big ass and tits ? then why not date Black girls instead Asians

        • markus peg

          Everyone’s different, and the west is becoming increasingly mulch-cultured which makes it easier to have bi-ethnic relationships.

          Also depending on if you are speaking about love or sex, love is more about the person than skin colour. I don’t think many people plan on meeting a Chinese/white or black man/woman, it just happens. Though i cannot speak for those that just want lots of sexual partners.

    • YourSupremeCommander

      yellow fever is > than black fever

  • Kai

    Right, but you also understand why historical circumstances have shaped what these countries are like now, right? Why did the US takeover in the 20th century? In large part to “splendid isolation” and Europe getting into a mud fight, AMONGST many other things. His larger point is just that it is easy to see why comparing Taiwan to China just because they are both “Chinese” is kinda silly. Why not compare Shanghai to some buttfuck nowhere village in Henan? Both Chinese, right? He’s just pushing back against the fairly common proposition that China could’ve been like Taiwan if X didn’t happen or exist.

  • anon101

    I think this swings both ways, its no secret there is some anti chinese sentiment around, but its damn right in your face that in china there is anti foreign sentiment (you know, the xenophobic society we have all witnessed, i say witnessed as I left china and will never go back)

    In business when you deal with a Chinese factory, any contract signed will be upheld and thrown in your face should you deviate 1 square inch, however the contract suddenly doesnt exist if the factory have decided to make some inferior product and not tell you about it, then say its your product. Its not really strange that so many businesses are heading over to India to do business as at least the Indians understand how business works. a happy customer is a return customer. scamming someone once then changing the name isnt really going to cut it long term.

  • Dr Sun

    I want want one of those status in my yard

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