69th Anniversary of Japan’s WW2 Surrender, Chinese Reactions

An Imperial Japanese soldier prepares to cut off a Chinese person's head with a katana in World War II.

The following microblog post by Chinese state-broadcaster CCTV was the most popular of the day, as was the trending topic for “Japanese Surrender Memorial Day” (Victory in Japan Day, or V-J Day)…

From Sina Weibo:

@央视新闻: #Japanese Surrender Memorial Day# No Matter Where You Are, At This Moment, Please Forward/Reshare This For Your Butchered Compatriots! Let Us Mourn and Pay Our Respects — 69 years ago this moment, at 7am on 1945 August 15, China, the United States, United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union proclaimed: Japan has unconditionally surrendered. In the War of Resistance Against Japan, China’s casualties exceeded 35 million people! Yet now, certain right-wingers in Japan are attempting to whitewash the invasion of China… An inch of river and mountain, an inch of blood, this day must not be forgotten! Today, please forward this weibo post, remember our compatriots, and spread the truth! [话筒]

"In the War of Resistance Against Japan, Chinese Casualties Exceeded 35 million"

“In the War of Resistance Against Japan, Chinese Casualties Exceeded 35 million”

"In the massacre, even children could not escape."

“In the massacre, even children could not escape.”

"The Imperial Japanese Army slaughtered Chinese people."

“The Imperial Japanese Army slaughtered Chinese people.”

"The Imperial Japanese Army slaughtered ordinary Chinese people."

“The Imperial Japanese Army slaughtered ordinary Chinese people.”

"The invading Imperial Japanese military conducted human frostbite experiments. "

“The invading Imperial Japanese military conducted human frostbite experiments. “

"A Japanese soldier demonstrating a killing for new soldiers."

“A Japanese soldier demonstrating a killing for new soldiers.”

"The Japanese military used Chinese people for live target practice."

“The Japanese military used Chinese people for live target practice.”

"The Japanese military massacred Chinese people and burned the bodies."

“The Japanese military massacred Chinese people and burned the bodies.”

"A child being cleaved."

“A child being cleaved.”

From Sina Weibo:

周阳zzzzy:

There are still veterans of the War of Resistance Against Japan who are still alive in China today, with many of them unable to afford enough food to eat. They went onto the battlefields to fight when they were just in their teens, with very few of them having gotten any education. After the war, those still alive were covered with wounds and injuries. Some lost their ability to work [do labor], while others had little education and couldn’t find work. Now in their later years, they all have difficulties. Instead of having us reshare/forward this microblog post, why doesn’t CCTV petition the government to give our War of Resistance Against Japan veterans living subsidies, so they can live a better life?

Mine哇咧喵:

Looking through the comments, I see a lot of people asking why after all this time we are still dredging up old hatreds and indoctrinating hate, and I laugh. This is just for us to engrave in our memories this period of national humiliation, engrave in our memories this period of history. Those who don’t even respect their own history and instead help others harm themselves complaining about this or that being bad domestically, I want to ask, are the lives of you people really that bad? Unable to eat, unable to afford clothes, without a place to live?

Permile:

Can some people give it a rest? How many people we starved to death we should all remember, and we should remember the difficulties of the New China’s development. Should the national humiliation of the invasion of China be forgotten? Don’t talk about how this or that about China isn’t good here. Without China, you would’ve gone extinct generations ago. “Help me get to the most popular [list]” to show those people who think they are so right/correct.

LA–24:

We are willing to forgive Japan, but their right-wingers instead insist on going the opposite direction, disrespecting history, and ultimately what they will lose is the confidence of the world’s people.

沈洛君:

In Korea, today is called Restoration of Light Day [Liberation Day], a national holiday celebrating Japan’s surrender, whereas in China, there are even many people who have long ago forgotten what day 8.15 is… [可怜][可怜][可怜]

馋超人:

There are still people who go sympathize and empathize with Japan. Has Japan acknowledged its error? Has Japan apologized? Even now Japan eyes the Diaoyu Islands covetously. You continuously pretending to be a saint showing understanding for a right-wing country, have you read too much Mary Sues?

勤快紫罗兰2010:

We need to distinguish between today’s Japan and the Japan that invaded China back then. Back then, that was a militaristic Japan, that was a bloody and ruthless government; but today’s Japan has already been reborn after the war, with the vast majority of Japanese people actively building their own country, pursuing democracy. Remembering history is not wrong, but if the crime of the [Imperial] Japanese military invading China is transferred onto modern Japanese people, that would be committing a new crime!

建筑工人小米:

Who says the past is the past? How can those who died rest in peace? Little Japan killed so many people, not even sparing children. Let earthquakes and tsunamis crush them and their small island country to death!

小纯洁和谐昊:

What [CCTV] should be properly promoting is how to quickly develop and surpass Japan post-war, and not nagging on the side like an old lady. Pretending to be staunch and strong, but secretly assisting Japanese companies in spurring the domestic economy, if the central government had integrity, it would eliminate all Japanese companies in China, break off diplomatic relations with Japan, and develop [the country] with the speed Japan did back then. Who can do it? Here making meaningless proclamations, then afterward going home to continue using Japanese goods, how can a people like this be wary of and intimidate Japan?

肖豆豆的妈妈:

Weak countries have no diplomacy! If one does not want to be bullied, one must become strong!!

汪礼浩Anyhow:

The Japanese are a people worth remembering one’s grievances for and worth respecting and learning from. Only by continuously developing and improving itself, making themselves strong, can the Chinese people prevent history from repeating itself, and that is the best way to mourn our dead compatriots. 8.15, a memorial hard to forget.

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  • bujiebuke

    Sigh…

    Here we go again…

  • SongYii

    “Instead of having us reshare/forward this microblog post, why doesn’t CCTV petition the government to give our War of Resistance Against Japan veterans living subsidies, so they can live a better life?”

    Because there is no propaganda value in doing so.

    BTW, why are these stories always missing the “Thank you, evil American running dogs, for saving our asses when a tiny country with no resources was crushing our own. Now shove your human rights up your ass” messages?

    • bujiebuke

      “BTW, why are these stories always missing the “Thank you, evil American running dogs, for saving our asses when a tiny country with no resources was crushing our own. Now shove your human rights up your ass” messages?”

      This is probably a rhetorical question. In any case, the relationship between the U.S. and China is a lot like a bad marriage where the couple hate each other but can’t get a divorce because of financial repercussions. Neither side is going to go on tv and give credit to each other for things done in the present or past.

      Your also suggesting that Japan was the underdog in the Sino-Japanese conflict of WWII which is not true. China was already fractured from the civil war between the KMT and CPC. While the KMT shouldered most of the responsibility in defending the mainland, the CCP made a strategical decision to mostly not get involved. In fact, even as Japan made further advancements, the KMT and CCP were still fighting each other.

      • Zhegezhege

        Bad marriage is a good analogy.

      • SongYii

        Bad marriage? More like normal marriage. :-)

        I have a cursory understanding of the history, but at least as much as you have described above. I am commenting on the nature of the Chinese perspective, themselves as hapless victims, deserving of holding Japan perpetually in contempt, themselves as the rescuers from their plight. This narrative they have created excludes outside influence and perverts the context of the events of the war.

        I also know the US did little more than support logistics to directly assist the Chinese against Japan, and the Japanese remained in control of pockets of the mainland years after getting nuked. So its not as if the US deserves all the credit for hauling the Japs out of China. But the side that IS largely responsible got driven to an island and has been waiting for a completion to that conflict ever since. ::throws hands up::

        My comment was not meant to be taken literally. Just meant to reflect the absurdity of the netizen comments.

        • David

          Don’t forget the flying tigers.

      • Wodowsan

        The U.S. in the recent past has invested a lot in China’s rise. Industries going there and creating jobs, American markets for Chinese manufactured goods, American technology improving the Chinese standard of living. In the past it was the U.S. that actually defeated the Imperial Japanese. It was the Americans that gave material support to the KMT that did most of the fighting during the Japanese occupation.

        Not really sure what China has ever done for the U.S.? Propping up the Kim Dynasty? Supporting the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War? Demanding controlling interest of American companies doing business in China and requiring them to hand over their patients with the false promise to access to the Chinese market? Do you mean the Chinese immigrants helping to build the railroads over a century ago, or do mean that if were not for China there would be no America? Since Columbus discovered the Americas by mistake searching for a western route to China? Is that what America should be crediting China for?

        • bujiebuke

          “Not really sure what China has ever done for the U.S.?”- China holds about 1.2 trillion out of 14 trillion U.S. debt. Since 2008, there’s no other country that would have supported that level of borrowing if China suddenly decided to stop buying. Overtime, this amount becomes diluted due to annual inflation, which is great for the U.S. and bad for China.
          – China manufactures a whole bunch of cheap stuff that Americans can’t seem to stop buying.
          – China exports their scholars to the U.S. to be used as slaves by research professors throughout the country.

          “Propping up the Kim Dynasty?”

          – Financial support of North Korea prevents the country from falling into utter chaos. What do you suppose the Kim regime would do if that happens? Most likely, they would deflect the blame and start a war with South Korea or Japan. This would pull other countries into the fray.

          ” Supporting the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War?”
          – The Vietnam war was a conflict of land inequality between peasants and the bourgeois. Once the U.S. got involved, it became a war of ideology. I’m not sure what point your making here, the two countries were already enemies by this time.

          “Do you mean the Chinese immigrants helping to build the railroads over a century ago, or do mean that if were not for China there would be no America?”

          – LOL, I thought we were talking about the two governments, now your talking about Chinese people? Which one is it?

          “Since Columbus discovered the Americas by mistake searching for a western route to China? ”
          – Haha! This keeps getting better and better!. Columbus didn’t discover Americas, a whole bunch of other people did, including the Indians who crossed the bering straight, and the Vikings in the north. Columbus landed in the Bahamas and started a brutal campaign of enslavement and murder. Which part of this are you more proud of?

          The U.S. has indeed been largely responsible for China’s rise. But to say that it was motivated by philanthropy is disingenuous. The U.S. was hoping that China would continue to manufacture cheap goods without the organic growth that could compete with the U.S. They were wrong, and now they’re blaming China.

          • wes707

            “China holds about 1.2 trillion out of 14 trillion U.S. debt. Since 2008, there’s no other country that would have supported that level of borrowing if China suddenly decided to stop buying.”

            Actually, it’s the Japanese more than the Chinese that have been increasing their treasury holdings; currently there’s only a 49 billion dollar difference between their respective holdings.
            http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfh.txt

            Also if China stopped buying treasuries, the trade surplus with the US that China relies on for much of their growth would be unsustainable and undermine their mercantilist economy. Please educate yourself:
            https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/money-and-banking/china-us-debt-situation/v/floating-exchange-resolving-trade-imbalance

          • Dr Sun

            you are going to have to educate me on this, just how if china stopped buying U.S govt debt would it destroy Walmart ?

          • bujiebuke

            “Actually, it’s the Japanese more than the Chinese that have been increasing their treasury holdings; currently there’s only a 49 billion dollar difference between their respective holdings.

            http://www.treasury.gov/ticdat…”

            – This is true, except your being deceptive by saying “there’s only a 49 billion dollar difference”. The Chinese hold 39% more in bonds than the Japanese, this is significantly more.

            “Also if China stopped buying treasuries, the trade surplus with the US that China relies on for much of their growth would be unsustainable and undermine their mercantilist economy. Please educate yourself:
            https://www.khanacademy.org/ec…”

            – I thought this link was really useful and took your advise by watching the entire series, not just the first video. The second to last video, the presenter made predictions about what would happen if China allows its currency to completely float (stop buying U.S. bonds). Their economy might slow down, but the price of consumables, especially oil, would also go down. By his own definition, “slow down” means a decrease in GDP growth, not a recession. His second revelation was that manufacturing jobs that depend on intense labor on a large scale may move to other developing countries in Latin America or South Asia, but are less likely to come back to the U.S..

            I invite you to take your own advice of education yourself by actually watching the entire program. Your shortchanging your own education by tagging something you found on google to earn cheap forum points.

          • Wodowsan

            You are saying the Chinese bought American bonds out of the goodness of their heart? Your joking yes? The Chinese bought those bonds because they thought they would be a good investment. – Obama’s economy may have proven that they made a very bad investment. They bought those bonds because they though they would make more by doing so, chances are they still will. The American economy is still double China’s and Japan’s combined (the number 2 and number 3 economies) and that is when America is not doing well.

            Yes, propping up the Kim Dynasty. You really think without Beijing’s support they would still be in power? They are helping the North Korean’s keeping them in power? The U.N. had pushed the North Koreans all the way to the Chinese boarder after they had invaded the South. Mao, supported by the Soviets, sent a Chinese “volunteer’s” into the conflict that was about to be abated, pushing the U.N. forces all the way back to the 38th parallel. The war could have ended 60 years ago, but because of China, they technically only have a ceasefire to this day. Without China’s support, and veto power in the Security counsel the Kim regime would have fallen decades ago. China is supporting one of the most tyrannical nations in the world.

            China’s misguided support of North Vietnam lead to Han Chinese in Vietnam being persecuted. They lost their property, they were bared from government and other professions. It lead to the 800,000 Vietnamese boatpeople fleeing Vietnam after the war was over, thousands died. Those boat people were mostly Han-ren. It is one the reasons China ended up invading Vietnam themselves in 1979, losing almost the same number of troops in one month the Americans lost in 12 years of fighting in Vietnam.

            Let us also not forget how they supported the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. That Maoist regime ended up killing a larger percentage of their own population than Hitler, Stalin, or even Mao had accomplished.

            Chinese cheap labor and cheap products have hurt the American manufacturing base , American workers, and American consumers in the long run. Nothing last long any more here, the stuff is poorly made. I would not call that a benefit to America. It is like you thanking the British for supplying China’s addiction for opium back in the 19th century, or America thanking the Columbian drug lords for supplying cocaine to American addicts.

            The Chinese are not interested in any type of win/win situation. It is all about them making a profit and not caring who they hurt or cheat. Even among themselves. There is a reason the Chinese talk about the “Trust Crisis” in China. I taught at a training school and a University in China and was cheated out of over month’s salary by both. I worked nine years in Taiwan and was never cheated. So it is not a race problem, but clearly a cultural one.

            Are Chinese engineers and researcher being held against their will in America to work or are they choosing a better life in America for themselves and their families?

            Chinese-Americans have benefited America in helping to build America, like many different groups have. But I do not see any benefits for America in dealing with the present day Mainland Chinese society or government.
            America has reached out to China when we helped them in their struggle against Imperial Japanese invasion. After Mao, when Deng tried to open up China, America also tired to help with investments into China, along with the Japanese and Taiwanese even more so. Yet China has shown no appreciation of this. If anything they become more arrogant and belligerent as they economy has improved.

            There is too much bigotry, and hostility towards America and especially towards Japan in today’s China. One only needs to read the Global Times, The People’s Daily, and the China News, or be a foreigner on a Chinese street and have to every day listen to comments like “Foreign Devil” “Foreign Monster” “Not human Looking” thinking you cannot speak the language. I never had that problem nine years in Taiwan. Worse I ever heard was “Big Nose,” but rarely.

            My wife (who is Chinese) has been in America for over a year and half now and has never had people point at her and insult her nationality or race. Her only problem was with her former boss calling her “stupid” “Blind” and that she had “pig ears,” Yet he was not American he was Chinese from Hubei.

            I see no benefit for America in doing business with China.

          • bujiebuke

            Ah yes, your wife is Chinese and therefore everything you say about China is totally legit. I like how you use your wife as a tool to prop your belief that Chinese are the only racist because she’s been in the U.S. for a 1.5 years and the only racist comment came from another Chinese. This isn’t about the Chinese government is it?

          • Wodowsan

            You are correct there is racism is in every society, but in mainland China you have a government with a department of propaganda, and controls all media and education, that fans hatred for other nationalities. So it is still a government problem.

            I lived and worked in China for Three and half years, I lived and worked in Taiwan for nine years. I have witness the difference in both societies first hand. In Taiwan I had only one incident on the street in nine years with one young Taiwanese guy passing me by and calling me in mandarin a “foreign dog.” In China these types of comments I experienced daily several times a day for the entire three and half years I was there.

            My son who is half Chinese (his mother was from Taiwan) and has been going to school in flushing New York for several years. He has been picked on by other students for being mixed, but not by the white kids , or Koreans, or Taiwanese, it is only the mainland Chinese that try to torment and insult him for being Euro-Asian. I think it clearly is a institutional problem in mainland Chinese society that promotes racism. It is also an amoral society that believes everything is alright to do as long as you don’t get caught, and that we live in a dog eat dog world. A us against them mentality that is belligerent and non-productive for working with others.

          • Alex Dương

            He has been picked on by other students for being mixed, but not by the white kids , or Koreans, or Taiwanese, it is only the mainland Chinese that try to torment and insult him for being Euro-Asian.

            That sounds like a huge overexaggeration to me. Where do you think epithets like “oreo” and “banana” come from? Please don’t tell me you think they came from mainland Chinese.

          • Wodowsan

            In all honest, Alex I have only heard Asians use the term Banana as if your an American Born Chinese with western culture as an insult. Actually when my son first told me he was being ridiculed for being half Chinese I thought it was the white American kids. He informed me no it was only the Mainland Chinese. If you have lived in China and seen how the government promotes nationalism and racism you will understand why this is. Of course in the States there is racism too, yet there is a government and cultural effort to confront it and condemn it.

          • Alex Dương

            Earlier on, you claimed that you “have witness[ed] the difference in [mainland China and Taiwan’s attitudes to foreigners] first hand” and gave an example. Now, with another example, you are claiming that there was basically no difference between mainland Chinese and Taiwanese students’ attitudes. I think this ought to show that you overexaggerated the situation.

            I’m not denying that there are some (or even many, given proportion and the large population) racist and prejudiced mainland Chinese. As we all agree, there are racists everywhere. But you are trying to say that this is an especially Chinese problem, and that is just not true. Taiwan presumably doesn’t have the governmental interference that you claim causes this in the mainland, so why did your Taiwanese students behave almost identically?

          • Wodowsan

            I said all nations have degrees of racism, Taiwan does too. It is not at the level of insulting you on the street, or propagating it in the education system or in the media to the extent it is in China.

            America of course has racism too, yet there has been a effort to combat it. My grandfather would never have agreed to his daughters marrying a non-white, my parents’ attitude was what is inside a person is what is important, not the color of their skin, or shape of their eyes.

            My mother always said “it is better to gain a son-in-law or daughter-in-law, than to lose your daughter or son because you disagree with who they love.”

            I fear to too many Chinese parents do not understand these wise words, on both sides of the straight. I am hopeful that Taiwan is changing for the better, much as the younger generation in America is much more acceptant of inter-racial relationships then their great-grandparents were.

            Nothing is absolute as they tell you on the news at 7pm on every channel in the Party’s Republic of China. No place is perfect. But there are degrees.

          • Alex Dương

            I said all nations have degrees of racism, Taiwan does too. It is not at the level of insulting you on the street, or propagating it in the education system or in the media to the extent it is in China.

            And yet, despite being a much freer society, when it came down to your assignment, in your own words, there was very, very little difference in student attitudes. Do you see the problem here? You’re blaming Chinese attitudes on the Chinese government. Well, the Taiwanese government is much less oppressive, yet Taiwanese attitudes were virtually identical. Seems like the story is more complicated than “government brainwashes the masses.”

            On that note…

            Nothing is absolute as they tell you on the news at 7pm on every channel in the Party’s Republic of China. No place is perfect. But there
            are degrees.

            When I look at the translated comments, are there ones that are highly upvoted and unabashedly pro-government? Absolutely. Are there also highly upvoted governments that are critical, directly or subtly, of the government? Yes. You should recognize that.

          • Wodowsan

            Taiwan is still mostly a homogenous society, so there is still a degree of racism especially with the older generations. It is changing though. Racism is not always taught by government very often they all are there in societies, mostly due to lack of exposure to other types of people and not really knowing people from other cultures. Taipei was a lot more international than Chongqing. Perhaps in cities like Shanghai it is better. But the fact that government in China does fan nationalism and racism does not help combat racism.

            Are you saying the Chinese government does not?
            And if the government does and people have never met or talked to a non-Chinese how would you expect their attitudes to be towards foreigners? Better than in a society of many nationalities where there is a cultural effort to stamp out racism?

          • Alex Dương

            All I am saying is that your “government brainwashes the masses” explanation is overly simplified. You acknowledge that societal homogeneity and openness are other factors that affect attitudes toward race and foreigners.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            How often do you see Chinese people committing hate crime against people of other ethnic groups? When Chinese people are involved in a racist hate crime, almost all of the time they are being the victims. Yet you say that Chinese are more racist than Americans? What a joke.

          • Wodowsan

            As I said in my posts. It was my experience of racial slurs directed at me daily on the streets in China over a three and half year period of living and teaching there. Most Chinese did not, but I would experience at least two or three per day.

            And yes I am saying Chinese are more racist than Americans for two reasons 1) they live in homogenous society and do not have much experience in dealing with non-Chinese. 2) There is a effort by the Chinese Communist Party in the Education system, their ministry of Propaganda (that is what they call it,) and in the government controlled media to report the news in absolutes, an us against them mentality, with derogator reporting of other nationalities, especially the Japanese, and then the Americans, but also Philippinos and Vietnamese due to China’s desire to seize the whole of the South China Sea.

            I am guessing you never heard of the Anti-Japanese protest in 2012? Where Japanese were attacked by Chinese mobs, along with the American ambassador to China? That Chinese attacked their own for driving Japanese cars, and attacked Chinese owned Japanese businesses.

            I guess you unaware of the Chinese attacks on westerners, thinking they were Americans, when a Chinese fighter plane collided with a much slower American propped surveillance/spy plane? I know of a old European couple attacked on the streets in Chongqing at that time and put in the hospital. I had a Swedish friend witness the Chinese attacking a shop called California at the same time.

            I guess you are also unaware of Chinese parents naming their children anti-American names during the Korean war? I never heard of any American parents at that time naming their Children death to China, Resist China, or Defeat China. America in the 1950’s was a lot more racist at that time than it is in the twenty-first century.

            Within the United States since we are a mixed society there has been a positive effort to combat racism. Racism is still there, but not nearly to the degree it was in the American past or in present day China. That is what I am saying, and that is no joke.

            I can hear you saying “What about Michael Brown?” The complete story on that is not out yet. It is already proven he just robbed a small grocery store and assaulted the store clerk. The police say he struggled to get the cop’s gun, his friends say he did not. Racism is still a monster in American society, but I fear the militarizing of the American police is much bigger problem in Ferguson, MO.

            I think if you look at the reaction by the left and the libertarian right in America their is a much bigger backlash against the Police in this case. Even if he did rob that store, and strong arm the clerk, it did not justify him being shot, and I know cops lie too.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            How could you explain that Chinese commits almost no racist hate crimes, while hate crimes between races are much more common in the US.

          • Wodowsan

            1) there is consorted effort in America to report Hate crimes to combat racism.

            2) China does not make that effort. But I just gave you several examples of Chinese government orchestrated attacks on Japanese and Americans in China.

            3) China doe not have a free press and smothers negative reporting on China in China. In America we have a free press that is protected by the Bill of Rights in the First Amendment.

            The Chinese have an Amendment for free speech and free press in their constitution too, but in China that is only a piece of paper.

            “Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.”

            – Article 35 of the Chinese Constitution
            Another example of mere face with no substance.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            No. The fact is racist hate crime is close to non-existence in China.

            We know there are corruptions, violent chengguans, forced demolitions, but we have never heard of such thing as killing others because they look different than us.

            Today chinese internet is much more efficent than any American press in spreading negative news. One house get forced demolished the next day it becomes one of the hottest topics on Weibo. If racist hate crimes do exist, there is no way they don’t get reported.

          • Wodowsan

            So you are saying the two examples I gave you did not happen in China?

            There wasn’t any Anti-American protests and assaults when the Chinese embassy was bombed in Serbia? There were no Anti-American protests when the Chinese fighter plane hit the American prop plane? There were no anti-Japanese protests in 2012?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Protest against agressive actions of foreign governments is not racist hate crime.

          • Wodowsan

            It is when you attack people who have nothing to do what you are protesting against. So the woman crying in the photo for driving a Japanese car deserved what they did to her? Sorry to say but you have truly drank the Kool-Aid.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            That’s called violent protest. Its not right but it’s not called racist hate crime.

            BTW, the woman crying in the photo had been proven to be irrelevant to the anti-japan protest.

          • Wodowsan

            Let’s use some logic. For argument sake let us agree the picture of the woman crying does not own the car they are destroying. Are you then suggesting whomever the owner was was happy to have their car destroyed for the “Violent Protest ” that happens to be called an “Anti-Japanese Protest” but is not a hate crime?

            I think your statements prove my points perfectly.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Yes it’s not racist hate crime.
            To prove me wrong, find any online article that uses “racist” and “hate crime” to describe the 2012 anti-Japan protest.

          • Kai

            I think you’re wrong here, and part of it is because you’re conflating two things that should be dealt with separately.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime

            In both crime and law, hate crime (also known as bias-motivated crime) is a usually violent, prejudice motivated crime that occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group. Examples of such groups include but are not limited to: ethnicity, gender identity, language,nationality, physical appearance, religion, or sexual orientation.[1][2]

            “Hate crime” generally refers to criminal acts that are seen to have been motivated by bias against one or more of the types above, or of their derivatives. Incidents may involve physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters (hate mail).[3]

            Insofar as some Chinese people committed criminal acts motivated by bias against victims because of their association with Japan, it can constitute a “hate crime”. Hate crimes are not mutually exclusive with “violent protest”. You can be protesting Japan but still be committing hate crimes against Japanese people or people for having Japanese products. There’s a difference between protesting something the Japanese government did and then attacking anything associated with Japan. That’s like attacking one Chinese person or Chinese products because one wants to protest someting the Chinese government did. That can still be a hate crime, because the direct motivation has become the identity of “Chinese” instead of the actual action that is being protested.

            The anti-Japanese attacks in 2012 were no different from the anti-Muslim attacks after 9/11. In both cases, innocent people and property were wrongly attacked or vandalized based on prejudices inflammed by an instigating incident. They can be argued to be “hate crimes” because of the prejudice component. If the Chinese rioters were more indiscriminate in their rioting and attacks in 2012, then you can just say it was a “violent protest”, but it is precisely because “Japanese” were targeted that it becomes more than just a “violent protest” and crosses over into issues of prejudice and hate.

            @wodowsan:disqus should of course also recognize that the rioting and attacks were done by only a subset of protesters, and that many kept to peacefully protesting.

          • Wodowsan

            Kai, I am more than aware that most Chinese were not even involved with those protests. They were clearly mostly orchestrated street theater by the government. If you look back at the footage of the protesters clashing with the police they were mostly young men with military haircuts.

          • Kai

            I’d be interested in seeing your sources arguing that they were “orchestrated street theater by the government”. I haven’t seen enough evidence for it, despite being confident that aspects of the government tacitly allowed them to go too far. Occam’s Razor would suggest the excesses were more about mob mentality than government conspiracy.

          • Wodowsan

            The simple fact of that were broadcasted and allowed to go on for so long as you said. Many other protests are not covered and even censored. also the uniformed resemblance of the protesters. Mostly young men in their twenties all with the same haircut.

            I know of one protest in Chongqing, only because my ex-girlfriend’s father was there. They were forcing a worker owned factory to be sold to the son of a government official that the workers felt was way below market value.

            The police were brought in and anyone with a camera was assaulted and prevented from documenting the event.

          • Kai

            No, that’s not dispositive. That’s like saying the LA Riots in the 90s was government orchestrated because they wer broadcasted and went on for a long time. It’s oversimplifying the spontaneous and distributed nature of how many of those riots and attacks occurred, as well as neglecting that much of the coverage were by netizens posting what they saw and photographed online ex post facto.

            You insinuate that the rioters were soldiers with “military haircuts” and “uniformed resemblance” but you haven’t provided any substantiation. There is a wealth of information and photos about the 2012 riots and attacks online from both Chinese and international sources. You need to provide evidence for your claims or suspicions. Show us the military haircuts and uniformed resemblance of the protestors. Remember also that riots with a heavy “young male” demographic is hardly unusual. Young men are usually the primary participants in riots.

            Your second and third paragraph is a hearsay anecdote. No one is denying that there has been injustice and abuse of power in China, so what point does this anecdote prove in rebuttal to anything I have said?

            Imagine if I “strongly recommended” people to avoid going to America because of racism there, and in response to people pointing out that I am employing unfair hyperboles in my argumentation of this, I begin laundry-listing various instances and anecdotes of “racism” in America. Imagine me challenging if people are denying that these things are true or have happened. In doing so, I am not proving my unfair hyperboles correct, I am merely resorting to an appeal to emotion fallacy. I am browbeating people not with valid arguments but with non-sequiturs.

            Please keep in mind that this entire conversation sprung from this comment of yours:

            Not really sure what China has ever done for the U.S.? Propping up the Kim Dynasty? Supporting the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War? Demanding controlling interest of American companies doing business in China and requiring them to hand over their patients with the false promise to access to the Chinese market? Do you mean the Chinese immigrants helping to build the railroads over a century ago, or do mean that if were not for China there would be no America? Since Columbus discovered the Americas by mistake searching for a western route to China? Is that what America should be crediting China for?

            Imagine if a someone laundry-lists only the negative things the US has done to China and then triumphantly but disingenuously asks “Is that what China should be crediting the US for?” Do you see how one-sided, biased, and intellectually dishonest such a representation of the situation is? In a world of greys, you black-and-whited the dynamic between China and the US. Instead of acknowledging that you were unfair in your original representation, especially as a response to a pretty fair representation given by @bujiebuke:disqus, you went on to laundry-list all the various things about China and Chinese society that you have grievances over, as if that is going to magically make your unfair representations suddenly justified and uncontestable.

            It’s like saying “what have black people ever done for America”, and then following it up by laundry-listing all of the undesirable things associated with black people. Come on, dude, are you serious? Can you imagine how obnoxious and disingenuous that is? Why the hesitation to concede that China and the United States, overall, have a mutually beneficial and mutually dependent relationship, and that this relationship has also had costs and “losers” on both sides?

          • Wodowsan

            Now you are putting words in my mouth. I did not say people should avoid going to China due to racism. I said it Is there to a greater degree than in Taiwan or the States. Yet many Chinese seem to think they are not also guilty of it.

            What I did say was I would not recommend doing business in China. I would also not recommend going there to work, unless you want to go mostly for the experience and realize you will not make what is promised you or even written in your contract.

            You said before that China was just using protectionist methods, in banning popular websites.

            Sorry for presenting this as question, but I really do not know how else to ask your opinion:

            Should the U.S. begin also using more protectionism? Ban Chinese websites? Ban Chinese manufactured goods to help American industry? No longer allow Chinese to buy land in America or open their own companies here without American partners that hold a controlling interest?

            Business should be done between two parties with good faith. The questions I asked you above makes my point that the relationship between China and the United States is not equal.

            I would though also recommend foreigners not visit China at a time there is a political incidents between their government and Beijing.

          • Kai

            Presenting a hypothetical analogy to illustrate a point is not putting words in your mouth. The point I was making was about your appeal to emotion fallacy of laundry-listing non-sequiturs.

            Sorry for presenting this as question, but I really do not know how else to ask your opinion:

            Dude, there’s a difference between asking me a question to get my opinion and projecting a position onto me by asking me if that’s what I am saying/telling you.

            For example, the latter:

            “Are you also saying that Zou hou mem does not exist in China?”

            An example of the former would be:

            “Are you familiar with zhou hou men in China?”

            What is inflammatory is not the mere act of presenting questions but the overuse of rhetorical questions to suggest another person is denying something that you have no actual basis for believing they are denying. It’s as if I said “China and the US has a mutually beneficial trade relationship” and you jumping on me asking me: “Are you saying there are no problems in the China-US trade relationship?” You’re forcing me to respond: “No, I’m not saying that, and where did you get the idea that I am saying or suggesting that?” Instead of presenting a point of view, you are projecting your point of view as something the other person is somehow denying or not recognizing, except again there is nothing in what they have previously said to make you question them that way.

            “Should the U.S. begin also using more protectionism?”

            is very different from something like:

            “Are you saying the US should also use more protectionism?”

            The former is a straight-forward question. The latter is putting words in someone’s mouth.

            To answer your question, I think the US should adopt however much protectionism it feels is in its best interests. Whether or not that protectionism will actually be a net benefit to its self-interests can be debated, just as Chinese protectionism is debated.

            Business should be done between two parties with good faith. The questions I asked you above makes my point that the relationship between China and the United States is not equal.

            Dude, no one is arguing that the relationship is equal. What I have argued is that there is still trade and growing trade between the US and China, which demonstrates that the inequalities are not deal-breakers in the course of overall trade. You are, as I have said, arguing against a straw man. Can you quote where I have said that the relationship between China and the United States is equal? You can’t, because I didn’t. You are arguing points that aren’t in contention ignoring the points made by others.

          • Wodowsan

            Picture below is of the recent protests in Ferguson, MO. You will note that there are men and women among the protestors and of different age groups.

            The picture I posted of the 2012 Anti-Japanese protests you will see it is mostly young men of military age and they all have military haircuts.

          • Kai

            Dude, you need more evidence than a single picture of young men with a variety of short haircuts to substantiate your claim that the protests and riots were “government orchestrated street theater”. Short hair does not equate to “military haircuts”. I have a similar haircut and I’m not in the military. I can go out on the street and most young guys (and many older guys) have similar low-maintenance haircuts. They’re also not in the military. You are reaching.

            Second, you trying to counter my statements that riots with a heavy “young male” demographic are hardly unusual and young men are usually the primary participants in riots, with what you think to be pluralistic diversity in the unrest in Ferguson. What is the largest demographic of those who are engaging in physical violence and looting? Young men.

            If you want to do more research into demographics and social unrest:

            According to demographer Gunnar Heinsohn, it is the lack of surplus males that makes Europe peaceful (Heinsohn 2006). While we must be sensitive to other factors, in general, a surplus of young males increases the risk of conflict.

            http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1532/3081.full

            This one is all about how increasing education for young males reduces the pool from which “rebels” are drawn from in civil conflict:

            http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0019/001907/190777e.pdf

            Here’s one of the many social commentaries about how young men with limited economic and marriage prospects are tied to social unrest in China:

            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/03/China-s-Massive-Abortions-of-Females-Linked-To-Higher-Levels-of-Violent-Crime-Among-Unmarried-Males

            Jihadists recruit from young males disenfranchised and disadvantaged in Middle Eastern society (but also elsewhere).

            So as I said, riots with a heavy young male demographic are hardly unusual. The LA Riots were young males. Eventhe Occupy movement was biased towards young males. It isn’t surprising that the 2012 Anti-Japanese protests and riots also featured a lot of young males. Previous riots and protests in China also had a lot of young males, and those that had instances of violence, vandalism, and looting all were predominantly committed by young males. You can’t just point to young males of military age and say they must be soldiers. You can’t just point to short haircuts and say they must be soldiers. You need something more dispositive. Otherwise you are just committing a Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

            Here’s another photo of the 2012 Anti-Japanese protests, this one in Beijing:

            http://www.voachinese.com/content/yongersters-in-anti-japan-protests-in-918-20120918/1510210.html

            Notice the middle-aged men, the women, the young girls, as well as the young guys without “military haircuts”.

            Or this one, from Shenyang, of a bunch of decidedly not-fit-for-the-military guys (and one obvious ayi):

            http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shenyang_918_Anti-Japan_Procession_1.jpg#mediaviewer/File:Shenyang_918_Anti-Japan_Procession_1.jpg

            There are TONS of photos of the demonstrations and protests. You need more, actual evidence.

          • Wodowsan

            Kai, I am sorry since I do not have direct link to the Party leadership I can only present that photo, and others like it, along with the facts you mentioned yourself, that they covered the event, and let go on as long as they did.
            Would you not agree if they were attacking State owned companies would they have covered to such an extent and let it go on as long as it did?
            You are right the more violent riots in the world is usually done by young men. But these protests did have much less diverse than I showed you of the crowd facing the Ferguson police.
            It is a theory on my part. I could be wrong. Is not reasonable say I could also be right. Knowing historically how the Party has used mobs before for political theater. If you remember the democracy movement it was mostly college students but it was male and female on the front lines, joined by housewives and workers stopping the first troops from entering the square.

          • Kai

            I am sorry since I do not have direct link to the Party leadership I can only present that photo, and others like it,

            1. Then present the “others like it”.

            2. You don’t need a direct link to the Party leadership to find countless photos of the Anti-Japanese riots in 2012 or other circumstantial evidence to support your claim. Open Google and have at it. Otherwise, you have not offered evidence but have cherry-picked a photo that isn’t even compelling circumstantial evidence.

            along with the facts you mentioned yourself, that they covered the event, and let go on as long as they did.

            The facts I mentioned undermine your claim. They did not support it. By your logic, the LA riots were “government orchestrated street theater” because they lasted as long as they did. If you disagree with that, then you logic is faulty and you need to re-articulate a better argument (with substantive evidence) to support your claim.

            Would you not agree if they were attacking State owned companies would they have covered to such an extent and let it go on as long as it did?

            The government having double-standards in their responses to protests against the Japanese vs SOEs only proves that the government has double-standards. It does not prove that the protests and riots themselves that occurred across the country were “government orchestrated street theater”. Double-standards in response does not equate to orchestration.

            If you remember the democracy movement it was mostly college students but it was male and female on the front lines, joined by housewives and workers stopping the first troops from entering the square.

            You need to do more research into Tiananmen. It started as a movement by college kids concerned about their job prospects that then grew to include blue-collar workers. Those on the “front-lines” and fighting the soldiers when the crackdown happened were workers, also predominantly young males. Tiananmen reinforces my point that the prevalence of young males in civil unrest does not suggest those young males being undercover soldiers, which is what you have tried arguing.

            You made a very specific claim that the anti-Japanese riots of 2012 were “government orchestrated street theater” as evidenced by the participants being young men of “military age” with apparently “military haircuts”. To substantiate this claim, you have only provided a SINGLE photograph that is far from dispositive, when there are TONS of photos of the protests and riots throughout the country accessible to you with a mere click or search online. If you are so certain your claim is true, it should not be remotely difficult for you to present a compelling case for it. So why aren’t you doing so?

            There is nothing wrong with you having suspicions, but there is something inherently wrong and dishonest about presenting suspicions as facts and truth while refusing to provide reasonable evidence to substantiate your claims.

          • Wodowsan

            I think if you check what I wrote I did say I think it was orchestrated by the Party. I may be wrong. But in all honest Kai, I think if I presented you government documents that prove my theory is correct, you will dismiss them.

          • Kai

            No, you said:

            They were clearly mostly orchestrated street theater by the government. If you look back at the footage of the protesters clashing with the police they were mostly young men with military haircuts.

            You have made at least four comments since I first asked you to provide sources substantiating your claim. In those four comments, you made futher baseless assertions, produced a single cherry-picked photo that isn’t even dispositive, and even tried to say that what I’ve said supports your claim when the things I’ve said do not whatsoever.

            You did not present a “theory”, you characterized the protests and riots as “clearly” government orchestrated. Instead of backpeddling, the honest thing to do would be to just apologize for claiming something you can’t actually substantiate, and admit that you overstepped. Before insinuating that I’d doggedly stick to my position in the face of compelling evidence, how about actually presenting that evidence and seeing how I’d respond? I didn’t even ask you for government documents, I asked you to simply present compelling circumstantial evidence with the resources you and I both have access to.

            Imagine if I claimed that 1+1 equals 3 and when you rightfully challenge me to prove it, I respond by saying “I think if I presented you proof, you’d just dismiss it.” This is a ridiculously insincere way to behave.

          • Wodowsan

            You are correct, I should have phrased it ” it is was clear to me and others that it was government orchestrated street theater.”

          • Kai

            Okay, that’s more reasonable in that it communicates subjective certainty rather than objective certainty. It unfortunately still begs the question:

            On what basis do you and these so-called others base your collective subjective certainty on?

            It’s like saying:

            “It is/was clear to me and others that Michael Brown deserved to be shot.”

            You are staking a very specific claim that is not actually self-evident. White supremacists think it is clear to them that white people are superior to colored people. Just because their certainty is subjective doesn’t shield them from skepticism, disagreement, or criticism.

            Ask yourself, does it reflect well upon you (and others) that the only piece of evidence you guys have to substantiate your certainty is a single picture? The tenuous correlation between young men and soldiers, short haircuts and military haircuts? Your suspicions and prejudices about the Chinese government?

            Without compelling evidence to substantiate your conclusion, you are risking your personal credibility and integrity on a sandy foundation. Why would you do this? Why would you wed yourself to a position you can’t actually defend? Wouldn’t it be smarter to back away from the conclusion you jumped to? Wouldn’t it be smarter to base your conclusions on the information and evidence actually available than clutch to a conspiracy theory?

            It’s like continuing to express certainty that Michael Brown deserved to be shot but offering no compelling arguments for it. You’re basically saying: “I’m certain it was government orchestrated street theater because, c’mon, it’s the Chinese government”. You know what that is? That’s like saying, “I’m certain Michael Brown was up to no good because, c’mon, he was black.”

            In the absence of directly relevant and dispositive substantiation, you are relying on prejudice. You are relying not on demonstratable facts but instead people’s subjective suspicions. This is a fallacy. Government documents would elevate your claime to one that is beyond reasonable doubt, but you haven’t even come close to a preponderance of evidence. You haven’t even presented anything to suggest “government orchestrated street theater” is more likely to be true than not.

            Why would you do this to yourself?

          • KenjiAd

            I have no intention to belittle the genuine anger many Chinese people feel about what the Imperial Japan did to their country 70 yrs ago and what the current Japanese government is still doing.

            With that clearly stated, I would like to point out that the violent anti-Japan protest (riot actually) two years ago were really carried out by a very small number of men, who would probably have acted out whenever an opportunity arises. Anti-Japan gives them a convenient excuse for smashing and looting things.

            I would also want to thank, as a Japanese national, that all the Chinese friends and colleagues were concerned about my own personal safety.

            Here’s a good story published by Asahi Shimbun (Newspaper) in Japan, about re-opening of a Japanese supermarket destroyed by the protest. http://ajw.asahi.com/article/business/AJ201211240050

            I quote: “None of the 367 Chinese employees of the store, the Jusco Huangdao
            supermarket, has quit and none of the 63 specialty shops in the store
            has left, an official said.”

            “At the morning assembly on opening day, about 100 store employees
            chanted “Jiayou!” (Let’s do our best!) as they raised their fists, and
            even before the opening hour of 8:30 a.m. more than 100 customers had
            entered the store.”

            I read an interview of the Japanese store manager somewhere. You said that, after the looting, many Chinese employees came to him and wept with him.

            This kind of story, and much of what I personally experienced during the 2012 protest, convinces me that, no matter what the media reports, people in China, most of them anyway, are kind.

          • Wodowsan

            Dear KenjiAd, I would like to say that I am very happy to hear that you had Chinese colleagues worried for your safety. I have said in many of my post it is not the majority of Chinese that have racism. It is just that is a much larger minority than in Taiwan or in the U.S. and as you mentioned it does get worse with what I call “Chinese group Think.”

            The fact that they worried about you. I think proves my point. If there was not a problem in you being Japanese, why would they need to worry?

            I do not know if you understand Chinese or watch CCTV but I think you would see that there is a concentrated effort by the Party to fan racism in the Chinese population.

            Racism exists in all societies, but when a government promotes it as they do in China it can lead to very terrible things. The fact that so many on this site want to deny that it exists is also scary. It means they are not even aware of the problem.

            The Confederate States of America, Imperial Japan, and Nazi Germany all illustrate how Government sponsored racism and hyper-nationalism leads to bloody wars for their neighbors and the destruction of those states at a very high cost of life and property. It is clear to me the present Chinese government is trying to lead their population down that same destructive road. I hope I am wrong. But talking to many on this site I think I understand how Winston Churchill felt when he tried to warn everyone of the Nazi Party during the 1930’s

            There is a big difference in cultural insensitivity, make fun of bowing, and calling non-Chinese “Foreign Devils” the Japanese though are singled out as “ri ben gui zi”

          • Kai

            Technically, they didn’t worry because there’s “a problem with being Japanese”, they worried because “there was a problem with other people”.

            Also technically, the Chinese government and Party can be guilty of fanning nationalism, not racism. There is still a meaningful difference between the two -isms, so you need to be careful not to conflate them.

            Furthermore, there are like only two people on this site who “deny” that the Anti-Japanese riots were “racist”. They do not however “deny that racism exists in China”. I am one of the people disagreeing with them, and you just unfairly and dishonestly broadened their position into a weaker one, which is strawmanning them. Can you stop that?

            Finally, you really need to know Winston Churchill better before using him as some sort of poster-child for anti-racism:

            “I do not admit… that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia… by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race… has come in and taken its place. ” —- Winston Churchill, 1937

            “I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilized tribes” — Winston Churchill, 1919

            “The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. ” — Winston Churchill, 1923

            http://www.quora.com/World-History/What-is-Britains-worst-contribution-to-the-world/answer/Amol-Shrivastava-1

          • Wodowsan

            Kai, they worried for him, because they feared other people would hurt him because he was Japanese. If they worried for his safety, it proves my point that were elements targeting Japanese, and those who owned Japanese business, or drove Japanese cars.

          • Kai

            KenjiAid didn’t need you to prove any point to him about there having been people targeting Japanese people at the time. Is there anything he said that suggests he needed you to prove that to him?

          • Wodowsan

            Kai, I was pointing out that what he was saying was proving my point. I was not implying he needed to have it proven to him.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Were Iraqi, Libyan, Afghanistanian people feared they would be killed because they were Iraqi/Libyan/Afghanistanian during the US attacks?

          • Wodowsan

            You are aware that these were wars that people within the country were fighting with the Americans against their governments?
            It does not mean they were just wars, or that the Americans should have gotten involved. Where have I said that everything America has done it right? I think if you check my posts you see many times my talking of the shortcoming of my own nation. Or you capble of doing the same for yours? Is China heaven on Earth? The Perfect State?
            If it is way are so many rich and powerful Chinese wanting to emigrate to America? I have many Chinese ask me to help them immigrate to America. I personally do not know any Americans wanting to leave America and live in China.
            Neither society is perfect, but if we do not acknowledge our problems nothing will ever improve.
            China can be a much great country. The Chinese are hardworking and intelligent people, but if you refuse to see where things should improve, if you close yourself to others with an attitude of Chinese and Foreigners, the nation will not improve.
            To many times when I was in China when things were not done right, I was told by Chinese “This is China.”
            “This is China” should be phrase of pride, not an excuse for incompetence and dishonesty.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Your argument is, racist hate crime is when people worried for their safety because of their nationality/race, wars fit perfectly in this category, so according to you, wars are racist hate crimes.

          • Wodowsan

            Wars are fought for many reasons, political, expansionism, religious, materal, self defense, etc. Hyper- nationalism historically leads to wars.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Does any of the reasons you stated change the fact that people are being targeted because of their nationality/race during wars?

          • Wodowsan

            So is China at war with Japan? Is it at war with America?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            No. But wars, just the same as violent protests against foreign countries, are racist hate crimes according to your logic.

          • Wodowsan

            Kai, there is nothing wrong with nationalism. The Chinese have a lot to be proud of in being Chinese. But there is a difference between hyper-nationalism that is built on a foundation of not respecting and even being belligerent to other nationalities.
            Are all Chinese like this? no. Are most? No. All I have been saying is there is a larger majority of racist in Mainland China than there are in Taiwan and in the States. Part of that is due to the fact of ignorance of a large part of China being a homogenous society with little if no exposure to others that are not Chinese. My wife’s parents are a perfect example of this. They have never met or talked to in their entire lives a non-Chinese.
            You will also find that those we are the most anti-Japanese in China are those who also have never been to Japan. Have never met a Japanese person, or talked to a Japanese person.
            The other problem is that the Chinese government for political reasons does fan belligerence in their news, education, and entertainment programs towards the Japanese mostly, and secondary towards America which they rightly or wrongly see as preventing them from becoming a world power.
            In some extent I think they are right that there are elements that want to prevent the present Chinese government from becoming a superpower. I do though also think there are many in America that would love to see China rise a free and economically strong nation that would contribute greatly to the whole world.

          • Kai

            there is nothing wrong with nationalism.

            To clarify, I was referring to the same hypernationalism you were referring to, or nationalism in the sense of jingoism, not simple patriotism.

            All I have been saying is there is a larger majority of racist in Mainland China than there are in Taiwan and in the States.

            Have I said anything to make you think I don’t recognize that one of the things you’ve expressed is that you feel there is more racism in mainland China than Taiwan or the US? If not, then why are you repeating this to me?

            The rest of your comment is repeating things that I have not challenged or taken issue with. I don’t understand why you are repeating this stuff to me instead of addressing the actual points of contention I have brought up. This is what our conversation looks like:

            Wodowsan: I think A, B, C.
            Kai: I disagree with you on B.
            Wodowsan: All I’m saying is A and C.

            It would be great if it was:

            Wodowsan: Right, you have a point about B.

            No matter how many times you reiterate A and C, you are still not addressing the contention with B. The conversation cannot move forward. You are seen as dodging and avoiding when you should be confronting the point in contention. If the other person makes a valid point, acknwoledge it. There is no shame in doing so and it usually earns you a lot of credibility and respect. And if their point doesn’t compel you to change your position, provide further argumentation for your position until a consensus can be reached. Don’t just repeat things the other person isn’t even talking about.

          • KenjiAd

            First I would like to discuss two issues, anti-Japan sentiment and government-sponsored nationalism, separately. And then, I’d like to speculate on any possible link between the two.

            First, there is no question that a sizable fraction of Chinese people harbor anti-Japan/Japanese sentiment to a varying degree. What people sometimes miss, however, is another fact that a sizable fraction of Chinese people, especially among youth, who not only has no animosity towards Japan but also admire Japan for a varying degree.

            Quite a lot of Chinese people visit Japan every year and anecdotal evidences suggest that most of them came back to China with a favorable impression of the country.

            Second, politicians in China and the government-controlled media (e.g., CCTV) do appear to send ethnocentric, nationalistic messages to the audience.

            But that’s not unusual. The other two countries I’m fairly familiar with, America and Japan, are also pretty ethnocentric countries where a lot of people believe in unique virtues of their culture, political system, even their DNA. So this doesn’t bother me a bit.

            Finally, is the Chinese government using the anti-Japan sentiment for their political advantage of some sort?

            I think there is *some* truth in that, but I think the reality is more complex than that. Some part of CCP’s legitimacy comes from the idea that they defeated the Imperial Japan (Now, one can debate whether this is true until the cow comes home, but my point is simply that’s what CCP want people to believe). So from this perspective, I understand that the Chinese government can’t afford to look sympathetic to Japan.

            I also happen to know that, in 80’s, many Chinese people and many Japanese people had a favorable impression of each other. CCP’s standard statement at that time always distinguished the Japanese Militarists and Japanese citizens – a natural conclusion of classic Marxist’s idea of class struggle.

            I believe that distinction is still CCP’s official stance, but over the years, it seems to have eroded to a significant. The erosion coincides with the rise of nationalism on Japanese side as well as the erosion of the classic socialists ideals.

            So my point, if there is any :-), is that it is overly simplistic to say the Chinese government is in some way inflaming the anti-Japan sentiment. If I have to guess, I think they are actually concerned about it, but doesn’t know how to deal with it without losing face.

          • Wodowsan

            They could just stop all the Anti-Japanese TV shows. That would be a good start.
            They could also teach in their schools that Japan of today is not the same as Imperial Japan of pre-1945. They could example how the war caused by the Imperial Japanese government did not just hurt China, but also hurt the Japanese people. Imperial Japan had censorship, political prisoners, and an elitist superiority complex that they should rule all other Asians. Those ideas ended up destroying a generation of their own people.
            The destruction of the Japanese mainland, not just the nuclear attacks, but also the American firebombing that actually caused my deaths. How many Japanese young men died defending the Imperial
            Japanese Empire.
            They should teach how the Imperial Japanese government brainwashed the Japanese Americans to hate non-Japanese. To teach them how they were superior, How they taught them that the Americans would “eat them” to the point that their women jumped to their deaths holding their babies instead of being captured by American marines. Howe they convinced mere boys with little training to crashing their planes into American warships as Kamikazes, sacrificing their lives for the Emperor.
            That is what hyper-nationalism gave Japan. Perhaps China should learn something more from history than just how they were “humiliated” and fanning alive a hatred towards people who had nothing to do with the war crimes that were committed by some of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers over 70 years ago.

          • Wodowsan

            I think you need to look up the meaning of “Hate Crime” if you use derogatory terms while you assault a person or their property it is a hate crime. When you target people for their race or nationality that is a hate crime.

            Are you saying Japanese people were not targeted in these protests? Are you saying Japanese property was not targeted? Are saying anti-Japanese slurs were not used in these protest?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I think you need to look up the reality that if anyone other than yourself called the protest “hate crime”. Find one single article about the 2012 anti-japan protest that used the term “hate crime” and “racist” and come back to me.

          • KenjiAd

            I don’t know whether the 2012 anti-Japan riot was “racist” or not. It’s probably semantic.

            But there is no question that anyone, anything associated with Japan was targeted by some protesters.

            I can only tell you that I felt scary and frustrated at the same time. The bottom line is that I was born after the war and thus personally didn’t do anything wrong to China or Chinese people. I didn’t understand why I personally could be a target of their anger, you know what I mean?

            I have only one relative who went to the war, but he was just a conscript rounded up by the Military to be sent to the South Pacific just to die. My grandfather was an electric engineer in Hiroshima when the US dropped A-bomb (he survived and told me a lot of horror story). My mother, age 8 at that time, was practicing a bamboo spear in case the US invaded Japan. My father was in jail.

            I understand the anger and frustration of Chinese people. I really do (my Chinese wife will tell you that). But those anger should not be directed to me. Instead, I want to fight with you for the friendship and peace for the two countries. Am I wrong?

          • Dr Sun

            remind me who bombed the Chinese embassy,a few farmers, or was it a butch of highly trained skilled, professional officers, masters in the art of war and targeting and from from which country are they in the military ?

          • Wodowsan

            The American bombed the Chinese embassy. That is why you had the attacks of westerners in China at the time.
            The American position was that it was “accident” I happen to know that is not true. They hit the embassy on purpose. I had it confirmed by some contacts I have with the CIA.
            If you remember the Serbians had shot down an American Stealth fighter at the time. Elements of that plane were given to the Chinese which is why they took out that part of the embassy. Neither side will publically admit the real reason for the embassy attack.

          • Myk

            You’re comparing “Chinese vs. Foreigner” with “American Ethic group A vs. American Ethic group B”. First, there aren’t that many foreigners in China you can commit crimes against and second, what would that comparison look like, if we also consider the violence between different ethnic groups in China?

          • KenjiAd

            As my name, Kenji, probably suggests to many, I was born in Japan (I’m ethnically Japanese). But I spent most of my adult life in two foreign countries, 26 years in America and 3 years in China.

            I’m now living in China, doing business here. And I understand that my nationality occupies a fairly low stratum in the likeability totem-pole in this country. lol

            Do Chinese people “hate” me personally? I’ve never felt that way, to be honest. Yes, some of them become cautious, too cautious in my opinion, when they realize I’m Japanese.

            What sometimes happens though is that, when a group of Chinese people start talking about Japan or Japanese people, they sort of compete for the championship of the most Japanese hater. The other side of the same coin is that anti-Japanese sentiment tends to escalate in mob situation. In a person-to-person encounter, I find Chinese people to be very courteous to Japanese people.

            Are Chinese people “racist”? In American standard, yes they are. But this difference is misleading. When it comes to the concept of racism, Chinese people are less enlightened than average Americans, so Chinese people overall are not as politically correct as Americans are.

            So a perfectly nice Chinese girl might say “I don’t want to date any black people,” whereas a perfectly nice Caucasian female in America would never date a Black guy without expressly declaring it.

            Wodowsan, this is not meant as a personal attack on you at all, so please forgive me if what I say below comes across as such.

            You said you are a Caucasian male growing up in the west (America?). In that case, what you experienced in China might be very shocking simply because you never have experienced it when you were growing up.

            Perhaps you are a bit over-sensitive. A lot of people actually make an issue out of your race or nationality when you go abroad. That doesn’t mean they are “racists.” How many times in America did people mock “bowing” to me when they realized I came from Japan? :-)

            I’m sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience in mainland China. But even a bad experience sometimes teaches you a lesson or two. I just hope that you won’t make it into something too negative. China isn’t a bad country.

          • Kai

            You don’t have to commit hate crimes to be racist.

          • Dr Sun

            Where the hell did you live in China ?

            “foreign dog.” In China these types of comments I experienced daily several times a day for the entire three and half years I was there.

            Ive been here for many years and “foreign dog” I’ve only heard twice directed at me, once in Shenzhen, once in Guangzhou .

          • Wodowsan

            I lived in Chongqing. And “Foreign Dog” I was called once in Taipei during my nine years there. In China, I daily heard much worse directed towards me. They of course did not realize I spoke the language. The young guy in Taipei I think also assumed I did not understand him.

          • bujiebuke

            I don’t think you realize how fascinating I find your rant to be, and probably not for the reasons that you think it to be.

            This is the first time, either directly or indirectly, that I’ve heard of an Asian-American complain about mainland Chinese bullying them at an American school. I’m not disputing your words, at least not yet, but it seems that either you, your son, blame your struggles as a multi-racial family squarely on mainland Chinese.

            I cannot imagine the amount of confusion and frustration that goes through your sons mind everyday. Here’s his father railing about Chinese government and Chinese people and sometimes muddles the distinction between the two. You ever think that he might wonder if your referring to him during your long rants?

          • Wodowsan

            I recommend you read Dryhten’s comment.

          • WinterSmitten

            As long as your white or white looking what you’re dealing with are asswads and discrimination. Those people who call you a dog would probably call any other Chinese national walking down the street the same thing if they stuck out. Those dudes are unfortunately everywhere and congregate on streets because they have nothing more productive to do.

            Discrimination is very real and yet is incredibly subtle. People treat white foreigners like kings most of the time, but those same people would be the first to toss you off a sinking ship. So the discrimination runs in both directions for us. That’s not racism though, because there’s no real general hate or sense of superiority. Nothing stops us from going to a bar, restaurant, movie theater, etc.

            If there is any kind of racism that’s visible I’d say it would be directed toward Japanese, Blacks, and maybe any other Asian country China doesn’t like. However I’m not any of those nor do I have friends in those categories here so I can’t comment on that at all.

          • Wodowsan

            I agree with you. I do know Blacks that have had a much harder time in China than Whites do.

            I also have known American born Chinese that had a harder time in China and Taiwan, than I did because were expected to be fluent in Chinese and culturally Chinese, but they are Americans and English was their mother tongues.

            As I said before, I would have one or two insulting comments spoken to me, in Chinese,per day. Having said that the majority of Chinese did not behave that way. I am still in contact with many friends in China, and of course my wife is Chinese. The majority Chinese did not show any animosity towards me. But two to three times a day over three and half years, it does get make you feel very unwelcome.

            I just noticed being there that racism is worse then it was in Taiwan, and in present day America. All have the issues, but America at least tries to combat and the trend is positive.

            In Taiwan I never noticed any attempt to address racism, perhaps because they are mostly Han-ren and do not really have to deal with the issue. So it is a bit worse then back in the States.

            In Mainland China though from what I witnessed in the government controlled education system and in the media they purposely fan racism. Mostly toward the Japanese and secondary towards Americans (yet too many Chinese seem to think all whites are American, and all Americans are white.)

            I never saw a concerted effort by the Party to fan racism towards blacks though. Yet I did notice that there was a prejudice among Chinese themselves towards other darker skinned Chinese.

            My first landlord in Chongqing told me how his wife’s family objected to him because he was originally from Guangdong and was “too dark.” He was han-ren just like them, but his skin was a little bit tanner.

          • Dr Sun

            I think you need to re-read Korean war history

          • Wodowsan

            You saying Pol Pot was not a Maoist and supported by China?

            Are you saying that China and the Soviet Union green lighted the North’s Invasion of South Korea? That the Chinese did not commit troops just as the UN forces about to end the war?

            Are saying the Vietnamese boat people never happened? That more than a million died in Vietnam after the war was supposedly won by the communists?

            I know you are Socialist, and you like to see history only from the left, but I do know my history. I happen to have a Masters in History and did my thesis on the Sino-Vietnamese Conflict which is heavily rooted in the American-Vietnamese War, Vietnam’s taking Laos and Cambodia which had pro-Chinese governments, Vietnam calling itself the “The Prussia of Asia” and their animosity and racism towards ethnic Chinese.
            Gen. Giap once said “I rather eat American shit, than another thousand years of Chinese shit.”

          • Fumanchu

            pol pot was no maoist, his version of communism (for the lack of a better word )was based on the accent beliefs and kingdom of Angkor .

          • DavidisDawei

            DICK Cheney is the Devil or a very good likeness

          • Taiwo

            I would have thought Netanyahu or Putin was, in all honesty.

          • DavidisDawei

            Netanyahu could be…another genocide, more silence because the people being killed don’t have oil or some other natural resource we can exploit.
            Why would you put Putin on this list?

          • Kai

            Compare:

            You are saying the Chinese bought American bonds out of the goodness of their heart? Your joking yes?

            to:

            The U.S. has indeed been largely responsible for China’s rise. But to say that it was motivated by philanthropy is disingenuous.

            If bujiebuke’s reply to you seems one-sided, maybe you should reflect upon your own initial comment.

            The Chinese bought those bonds because they thought they would be a good investment. – Obama’s economy may have proven that they made a very bad investment. They bought those bonds because they thought they would make more by doing so, chances are they still will. The American economy is still double China’s and Japan’s combined (the number 2 and number 3 economies) and that is when America is not doing well.

            Not quite. The Chinese buy American debt to manipulate their currency in order to conitnue the trade between the two countries that both countries consider beneficial. Popularized, this is Americans enjoying lower prices and China getting economic development. Both are willing players of the game. You did not fairly represent the situation when you brought this up, and that prompted bujiebuke to present part of the side you left out. I’m presenting another.

            Here’s a bit of easy reading about this:

            http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/10/17/china_bond_purchases_stop_being_wrong.html

            Here are some more complicated readings:

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/ianshepherdson/2013/10/23/four-big-reasons-why-china-will-keep-buying-treasuries/

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/cedricmuhammad/2014/01/16/so-what-if-china-has-1-32-trillion-in-u-s-treasuries-it-still-cant-crash-americas-economy/

            Here’s also some good Q&A material:

            http://www.quora.com/search?q=why+does+china+buy+us+treasuries

            These should be good decent jumping-off points for you to research further. In the end, though, most of this stuff is covered in undergraduate level economic courses (okay, maybe not the intro courses since they kinda oversimplify depth for breadth). Simply put, the notion that the Chinese are buying T-bonds as “investments” in the traditional sense is an extremely inaccurate representation of the issue. If you didn’t know, you can use the above to get up to speed. If you did, then your representation of the situation would suggest dishonesty, and that’s not cool.

            Yes, propping up the Kim Dynasty. You really think without Beijing’s support they would still be in power?

            Did he say otherwise? I don’t think so. He appealed to speculation about the consequences of not propping NK up. Those consequences are worth serious consideration, because it isn’t just the Chinese who worry about it. The South Koreans are too.

            China is supporting one of the most tyrannical nations in the world.

            Yes, it is. The reason it feels justified in doing so is because other countries have done likewise for their self-interests without apology or remorse, like the US. There’s no moral high ground on the “supporting tyranny” angle. Getting China to change its policies with regards to North Korea has to be approached from another angle, ideally that of its own “self-interests”. China has to be convinced that the costs of propping up NK outweigh the benefits.

            China’s misguided support of North Vietnam […] or even Mao had accomplished.

            All of this is irrelevant to what bujiebuke said. You’re trying to impress upon him why he should feel the same contempt you do for China, but that doesn’t actually address his points.

            Chinese cheap labor and cheap products have hurt the American manufacturing base , American workers, and American consumers in the long run. Nothing last long any more here, the stuff is poorly made. I would not call that a benefit to America.

            Sorry, cheap products is not a Chinese invention, it is a result of market demand (and the concept of planned obscelescence in manufactured products, which also wasn’t thought up by Chinese people). Globalization has benefited part of the US and hurt another part, same as it has for the Chinese and other countries. China becoming “the world’s factory” was not some unilateral decision it made all by its lonesome. The rest of the world, and especially the US was instrumental in making China what it is today.

            A big problem here is that you are presenting a very one-sided and arguably disingenuous picture of the situation that paints China as evil and the US as a victim. That is not the case. There are winners and losers on both sides, so if there is any blame to be thrown around, there’s plenty to go around. You need to be more fair and honest if there’s any hope for a meaningful discussion here.

            It is like you thanking the British for supplying China’s addiction for opium back in the 19th century, or America thanking the Columbian drug lords for supplying cocaine to American addicts.

            You rhetorically asked what China has ever done for the US. bujiebuke’s response that China has provided cheap goods is a legitimate response. An addiction to lower prices is qualitatively different from an addiction to opium or cocaine. More importantly, American companies consciously went to China to lower their costs, maximize their profit margins, and/or compete with each other. This should be adequately acknowledged. Your remarks do not suggest you are doing so.

            The Chinese are not interested in any type of win/win situation.

            Now you’re just expressing prejudice. Trade is pretty much by definition “win-win”. This kind of remark is just disingenuous.

            Are Chinese engineers and researcher being held against their will in America to work or are they choosing a better life in America for themselves and their families?

            This is a fair response to bujiebuke’s unfair hyperbole about Chinese being slaves to research professors (though grad students often do complain about being slaves to their professors). Don’t give bujiebuke an excuse to do this by refraining from your own unfair hyperboles in your own arguments.

            But I do not see any benefits for America in dealing with the present day Mainland Chinese society or government.

            Be that as it may, but surely you can put yourself in the shoes of the many other Americans who think there are benefits.

            America has reached out to China when we helped them in their struggle against Imperial Japanese invasion. After Mao, when Deng tried to open up China, America also tired to help with investments into China, along with the Japanese and Taiwanese even more so. Yet China has shown no appreciation of this. If anything they become more arrogant and belligerent as they economy has improved.

            First, you need to stop pretending like the US, Japanese, and Taiwanese did any of this out of the kindness of their hearts and recognize it as the calculated economic and political investments that they are.

            Second, do you know of any country that hasn’t become more assertive of its self-interests (aka “arrogant and belligerent”) as their economy has improved? We’re from the United States; we are the poster child for arrogance and belligerence borne out of economic power and dominance.

            There is too much bigotry, and hostility towards America and especially towards Japan in today’s China. One only needs to read the Global Times, The People’s Daily, and the China News, or be a foreigner on a Chinese street and have to every day listen to comments like “Foreign Devil” “Foreign Monster” “Not human Looking” thinking you cannot speak the language. I never had that problem nine years in Taiwan. Worse I ever heard was “Big Nose,” but rarely.

            True, and Taiwan became what it is today by participating in the international world order. Do you think the bigotry and hostility in China is going to improve by ostracizing China and its society?

            My wife (who is Chinese) has been in America for over a year and half now and has never had people point at her and insult her nationality or race.

            Yes, a history of immigration and policy of multiculturalism has made US society a lot more sensitive to racial/ethnic discrimination than many other countries. It is something the US and we Americans should be proud of. We should hope for more international exposure for the Chinese so they can follow our path.

            I see no benefit for America in doing business with China.

            It’s an opportunity for us to influence them to be more like us. It started with Nixon.

          • Dr Sun

            Kai, sorry to change the subject and highjack, but ever since I pissed off Rick, Probobacter and his other socks , every time I log in to here , my computer is attacked by numerous trojans at the same time, can you or the back room boys sort it out ?

          • Kai

            Uh, I’m tempted to make a joke suggesting that you stop visiting the questionable porn sites, but seriously, I really don’t think it is something related to our site, or RIck/Probo, or even Rick/Probo through our site. Thomas, our sys admin, runs a tight ship and if there were issues of trojans originating from cS, we would’ve heard about it from others. If you are confident it is specific to our site, please contact me and then you can perhaps send more more information or screenshots or whatever for us to look at and investigate.

            However, it seems very unlikely, and I’m also pretty confident neither Rick nor Probo have the technical skills to be attacking you with trojans (unless you’re referring to the latex kind), so you really shouldn’t be throwing out these sort of baseless accusations against other commenters.

          • Dr Sun

            Kia i logged on here 8/13-14 and got hit by 7 trojans/ malware and ads at the same time, took a combination of 163, QQ , Baibu antivirus combined 8 hours to clean them out, plus a safe mode system scan, all the shit came from my logging on here.
            Thomas no doubt can check that out.

          • Kai

            I don’t know what to tell you, dude. because as far as I can tell, it’s not coming from us. Google would flag our site for malware pretty quickly given how often they crawl our site. Our ad server would also automatically shut down any advertising line items it detects with malware. If you contact us, I’ll forward you onto Thomas and you can ask him directly.

          • Dr Sun

            google was not the browser webfreer was plus DNSvpn the proxy server.

          • DavidisDawei

            I tried both Safari and Google Chrome.
            The Chinasmack site would open and then within a few seconds, bounce to some random site. Most of them seemed to be Chinese or Russian dating sites…but I didn’t leave them up long enough to read them

          • DavidisDawei

            Glad you said something. I was going to query to see if anyone else had this issue.
            In the last several days, I started having issues with this site as well from my Macbook.
            The only site I had problems with is when I logged onto Chinasmack

          • Kai

            If you guys think this is a problem specific to our site, we need you guys to send us more information like screenshots of what you’re seeing and particulars about how you are navigating to our site. Please contact us. If it is something with the site, there has to be an explanation for why it only happens to some but not others.

          • Rick in China

            Just saw this..

            Don’t be so confident. I think some people here may know my day job is in software/IT – which includes pen testing for my current client which is a very large insurance/financial company. That being said, it would be stupid, massively time consuming, and absolutely not beneficial in any way whatsoever to put any effort into weeding out Sun’s information or planting malware on his box once said information was collected, not to mention the method wouldn’t be through jacking Discus.

            It is amusing though, that both Sun and Bu(ka)ke jump to “I WONDER IF IT’S THE COMMENTORS I DISAGREE WITH!” when their computers turn to shit. Definitely indicators of mental instability.

          • bujiebuke

            Speaking of mentally instability, I think the air particles have affected your reading comprehension. I clearly stated that “I’m not blaming anyone here – I don’t think the little gang of four has the sophistication to do this”.

          • Probotector

            Can you believe this guy?

          • Wodowsan

            As much as you and I disagree, I really hope that no one is trying to silence you or cause you harm.

          • bujiebuke

            Let me just jump in here real quick and say that I experienced a similar problem last night while on this site. My word typing was slowed to a crawl and I had to restart my computer. I’m not blaming anyone here – I don’t think the little gang of four has the sophistication to do this, but it is interesting that we experienced similar issues. No I wasn’t watching porn. Not at the time.

          • Kai

            If you’re typing on this site, it’s probably in the Disqus comments module that is embedded but not hosted on our site. If the typing slows down, it’s probably related resources in your browser not being able to keep up with the resources required by the Disqus embed (I’ve experienced this myself though rarely). What could affect the resources in your browser could be other tabs you have open or even othe programs you have open on your computer. It could also be the elements on this page. For example, Disqus sometimes slows to a crawl for me when there are too many comments or potentially activity on the page. For example, Disqus tries to show those “show 1 new comment/reply” notifications in real time, so it is actively using resources in the background. If there are Flash ads, they can also use up resources.

            My joke about porn sites is not that watching porn will result in problems, but that shadier porn sites are often responsible for secretly installing malware on your computer that have lasting effects even after you’ve navigated away from them and are browsing other sites.

            Dr. Sun described getting antivirus alerts while you described slowed typing, and those don’t sound like “similar problem/issues”.I think your slowed typing has a fairly mundane explanation, whereas there’s little I can do about Dr. Sun’s issue without having experienced the same thing or being able to replicate it.

            With regards to slowed typing, the next time you experience it on cS, try to determine if it is slow performance in just the embedded Disqus module (the comments section) or if it is browser-wide. Try typing in the search box to the top-right of the page. Try typing in your address bar, or on another site in another tab. If it is slow everywhere, then it is at least a browser resources issue. If other programs are also slow, then its a computer-wide issue. The source of the issue could be another site, tab, program, but it could also be cS too. The thing is to diagonose it by a process of elimination. First try refreshing the cS page to see if anything changes. Then try that for other pages/tabs, one by one. If it is the same. Then try closing tabs one by one, giving the browser and computer a moment to free up the resources those tabs could’ve been using. Then try programs. If you’re on Windows, you can try looking at your Task Manager to identify programs that are using a lot of resources, but if you’re not that tech savvy, then try to elimination method I described above. Report your findings and I’ll be happy to help you diagnose however I can.

          • bujiebuke

            I understood you were joking about porn sites. I was jokingish too.

            “Dr. Sun described getting antivirus alerts while you described slowed typing, and those don’t sound like “similar problem/issues”.”

            – your probably right. I probably was a bit hasty in posting my comment earlier today.

          • Xio Gen

            Kai, you need to stop responding to trolls like this. They’re just trying to get a rise out of you. I know you feel strongly about how China appears to the outside world and misconceptions, but these guys are just trolls and nothing you say will convince them otherwise. I know you’re a good guy and you mean well. But you can’t let it get to you.

          • Kai

            I’m gonna assume you weren’t referring to my response to bujiebuke about a technical issue and instead referring to my other responses to other people.

            I really, sincerely appreciate your understanding. The thing is, I don’t think I’m usually responding to the obvious trolls. By “obvious”, I mean those whom I have confidence that a sufficient majority would immediately dismiss. mr.wiener also does a good job of moderating those people.

            The people I feel I spend my time responding to are those whom I think are expressing notions that too many people might find compelling or persuasive. A lot of the time, when I respond to them, it isn’t necessarily to change their minds but to dissuade others from too readily accepting what they have said.

            In other words, I respond because I believe in the marketplace of ideas. If I can offer a more compelling narrative, then others won’t buy into what I consider a faulty narrative. If I can convince others that a conception is problematic, then I’ll have done a part in helping them avoid adopting a misconception.

            I don’t worry about the obvious trolls, I worry about the populist trolls, the subtle trolls, the sly trolls, the persuasive trolls. I also worry about those who are sincere but simply mistaken, whom I hold a bit of hope for convincing. But I don’t hold hope for convincing the trolls. With them, I just want to mitigate the damage they are doing. A lot of the times, it isn’t about fighting each other, but about fighting each other for the audience.

            Hope this makes sense.

          • Wodowsan

            Makes sense to me.

          • Guang Xiang

            It’s not about how China appears to the outside world. Just because Kai and I look Asian doesn’t mean we’re here to defend China’s honor. It’s about mitigating untruths that encourages confirmation bias in the uninformed majority.

          • Wodowsan

            I do agree with much of what you are saying. And perhaps I am not making my self clear enough. Having worked in China and dealing with the government there, being cheated out of months of salaries, and being told by Chinese businessmen that “a contract is only a piece of paper.” I also know of Chinese and Taiwanese business that invested in China and had their business stolen from under them once the companies were established. There is a gangster mentality in the mainland in doing business and using the government to get all the marbles.

            Yes, American hoped to make money too. Capitalism only works well if both parties are dealing in good faith. I produce something you want, you produce something I want, we exchange and both sides win. But if what you give me is not what was promised, is poorly made, at times even dangerous, that is not honest, and then your response is a “contract is only a piece of paper.” There is a problem. So I strongly recommend not doing business in Mainland China under the present system they have. A system where who you know is more important than the rule of law.

          • Kai

            and also knowing of Hong Kongers, and Taiwanese business losing everything in investing in China, when their business were stolen from under them once their companies were established, I do not think it wise to do business with China. I have had Hong Kongers tell me they think the Americans are fools to do business in China. I have to agree with them.

            A lot of people have had bad experiences working or trying to do business in China, including the Chinese themselves. There are scammers and unethical/ruthless people, and legal recourse can be iffy in many places, especially if you don’t know how to navigate the legal system. It’s like the Wild West.

            That said, it isn’t fair to trot out anecdotes about Hong Kongers telling you they think Americans are fools to do business in China when you also know that Hong Kongers regularly do business in China and even have an entire industry towards facilitating foreigners with doing business in China.

            The issue here is that you are once again inaccurately representing the situation. You insinuate that “Hong Kongers” side with your opinion, thereby giving your opinion more weight, when you know that’s not exactly true either. Your argument boils down to: “my opinion is valid and should be persuasive to others because so and so agrees with me”.

            That’s a fallacy, especially as a response to a disagreement over the accuracy of your representation. I don’t begrudge you for being cynical about doing business in China. You’ve had bad experiences and you know others who have as well. You don’t care to risk it anymore and that’s fine. It’s your life and your money or whatever. However, I do begrudge you making inaccurate and unfair representations of the situation when I am certain you know that the reality is far less simple and far less black and white than your comments suggest about “doing business in/with China”.

            Review bujiebuke’s comment and then your response. He characterized both China and the US as not giving each other enough credit at times, whereas your response was glaringly one-sided in demonizing China and victimizing the US. The pushback you are getting is because of how one-sided your remarks are. When pressed, you’d perhaps admit and acknowledge the “other sides” others rebut you with, but why not just articulate a fairer representation of the situation from the get-go?

            Yes, they will welcome foreign investment, foreign technology, foreign knowhow, and creativity, but they are not interested in foreigners making money in China.

            Again, an unfair hyperbole. Many Chinese may not be “interested” in foreigners making money in China but they are ultimately “fine” with it. That’s the basis of trade. That’s the basis of allowing foreigners to work in China with compensation. You know this. You also know there is protectionism in the States and other countries as well that can also be unfairly hyperbolized into “not interested in foreigners making money”. Since you know this, why do you indulge in such unfair hyperbole? You’re sabotaging any meaningful productive conversation that could be had with polemics.

            I agree American and Japanese companies are not investing into China solely from the goodness of their hearts either. They too hoped to make money.

            And many have, as evidenced by their continued investment and business in China. It is difficult to not see your “they too hoped” as a disingenuous way to reinforce your unfair hyperboles and avoid actually acknowledging the opposing point.

            Capitalism only works well if both parties are dealing in good faith. I produce something you want, you produce something I want, we exchange and both sides win. But if what you give me is not what was promised, is poorly made, at times even dangerous, that is not honest, and then your response is a “contract is only a piece of paper.” There is a problem.

            Sure. My point is that these are hardly unique to China and that the continued capitalist trade between China and other countries demonstrates that the capitalist trade is working well enough that your representations of the situation are unfairly hyperbolized and generalized. No one is denying that there are bad actors and there have been victims. Your hyperboles and generalizations are however presenting an inaccurate picture. Instead of discussing why there are often pitfalls involved when it comes to doing business with China, we’re stuck discussing the fairness of your remarks.

            America has problems. many problems, yet we at least still have a free market of ideas, are much more so a melting pot than most nations in the world, especially compared to China, and make a cultural and educational effort to stamp out racism, not fan it as CCTV, the Chinese education system, and the pages of the government run papers do in present day China.

            This paragraph tells me you think this conversation is about establishing superiority and inferiority between countries. It tells me you think America is being attacked and you have to defend it by pointing out where it is superior and where China is inferior.

            You need to get yourself out of this mental framework. This conversation is about the accuracy and fairness of your representations. You can strongly recommend not doing business in mainland China while making accurate and fair representations of the situation, without hyperboles, gross generalizations, and fallacies. Keep in mind that CCTV, aspects of the Chinese education system, and the pages of government-run papers also employ hyperboles, gross generalizations, and fallacies in their rhetoric. Don’t be like them.

          • Wodowsan

            The only successful business in China have been franchises. McDonalds, KFC, and Starbucks for example. They have worked because they are business that Chinese buy and operate to make money mostly for themselves. Yet McDonalds and KFC are being hurt greatly by the food scandal with the Chinese meat provider. I guess you have not heard of that?

            Other business that have tried to do business in China have had a terrible track record, unless they are in the economic zones and are shipping directly out of China to foreign markets.

            Facebook, Tweeter, and Youtube, are not block only because the Chinese government wants to control all media, but also because they want their own Chinese versions to dominate the Chinese market. QQ is not blocked in America, nor is Wei Xian, nor Youku.

            Instead of just telling me I am using hyperbolizes please give examples of foreign companies that are successful in China. Companies that are not franchises or working only in the economic zones for export markets – Foxcom for example.

            Also tell me is it true or not that to do business in China you have to have a Chinese partner that must have a controlling interests? Ford is a good example of that. Are you saying this is not true?

            Is it not true or not true that Chinese have dummy factories they rent to show foreign companies that met the western requirements to produce their goods, but once the foreign clients leave the manufacturing of goods are not made in those charade factories. Instead they produced in other factories that do not meet the standards. Are you saying that is not true too?

            Are saying that in order to sell products in China that the Chinese government does not require all patients be handed over to the Chinese? Enabling them to just produce the products without their foreign partners.

            Are you also saying it is not true that government regulation are not used to steal foreign business once they are established? – A Taiwanese fang biam mian company is an example I can give you, since I knew the owner in Taiwan.

            Are you also saying that Zou hou mem does not exist in China? That is not necessary to know the judge in law suits. Can you even give me one legal case in China where the foreigner has won a contract dispute?

            Are also telling me it is not common in China for employers to fine their employees over the little things not to pay them? That many times construction firms will have workers work for months on a project and then not get paid, causing some to commit suicide?

            Are you also saying that English Language schools in China never cheat their foreign teachers out of months of salary?

            I guess you will say it is not true if a foreign worker or teacher tries to sue for pay owed the school or company they work for will use their connections to them deported so they cannot even bring them to a Chinese court.

            I am also guessing it is only more of my hyperboles when I mention the “Trust Crisis” in China? I guess it does not exist? Chinese are confident in the quality of their food, their medicines, hospital care, government officials, etc..
            That too is only hyperboles?

          • Kai

            No, there are plenty of successful businesses in China that aren’t franchises. Why would you even make such a blatantly false assertion? All around me, there are successful F&B businesses owned and operated by foreign entrepeneurs. All around me there are successful goods and services businesses. Why the unnecessary hyperbole?

            Yet McDonalds and KFC are being hurt greatly by the food scandal with the Chinese meat provider. I guess you have not heard of that?

            I guess you haven’t noticed that I’m an editor and moderator for cS where we translated the story and where I commented at length?

            I guess you haven’t noticed that the meat supplier is owned and managed by an American company whose chairman has gone on to publicly apologize for the incident?

            Can you please avoid unnecessarily inflammatory turn of phrases like “I guess you haven’t noticed…”? So far, I think I’ve demonstrated I’m quite a bit better versed in the subjects you’re alluding to than you are. While others have already come out and slammed you for being ignorant of what you’re talking about, I’ve consistently tried to give you the benefit of the doubt offering you linked resources to understand what I’m referring to. You sholdn’t be blamed for not knowing what others do, but if you’re going to make such flippant retorts about what I have or haven’t noticed, I’m not going to extend you so much common courtesy.

            Facebook, Tweeter, and Youtube, are not block only because the Chinese government wants to control all media, but also because they want their own Chinese versions to dominate the Chinese market. QQ is not blocked in America, nor is Wei Xian, nor Youku.

            All the traditional arguments about protectionism versus free trade apply here. Both America and China erect protectionist government policies in ways they calculate to be a net benefit to their self-interests.

            Instead of just telling me I am using hyperbolizes please give examples of foreign companies that are successful in China. Companies that are not franchises or working only in the economic zones for export markets – Foxcom for example.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/business-23364230

            Most of these companies and brands are not franchises or in China only for export markets. They do successful business with domestic markets and consumers. Above, I already pointed out to the small businesses that are all around me.

            Also tell me is it true or not that to do business in China you have to have a Chinese partner that must have a controlling interests? Ford is a good example of that. Are you saying this is not true?

            First of all, I never made any remarks about busiesses in China not having to have Chinese partners, so why are you asking me this?

            Second, yes, it is not true that businesses in China require a Chinese partner with a controlling interest. They’re called WFOEs.

            Is it true or not true that Chinese have dummy factories they rent to show foreign companies that meet the western requirements to produce their goods, but once the foreign clients leave the manufacturing of goods are not made in those charade factories? Instead they produced the products in other factories that do not meet the standards. Are you saying that is not true too?

            Again, you are trying to impress upon me your contempt for China instead of actually addressing the points I have made.

            It is true that some Chinese have used “dummy factories” or fronts, just as it is true that non-Chinese have as well. It is also true that this is not a meaningful generalization of how Chinese manufacturers operate in China.

            Are saying that in order to sell products in China that the Chinese government does not require all patients be handed over to the Chinese? Enabling them to just produce the products without their foreign partners.

            No, that’s not true. I’m not even sure where you got this ignorant bullshit.

            Are you also saying it is not true that government regulation are not used to steal foreign business once they are established? – A Taiwanese fang biam mian company is an example I can give you, since I knew the owner in Taiwan.

            I’m getting really tired of you putting words in my mouth. What have I said to suggest it is “not true that government regulation are not used to steal foreign business once they are establishd”? Please quote me. Otherwise, stop putting words in my mouth.

            That said, there have been instances where people have made good cases that the government has used regulations to steal foreign businesses. Yahoo makes a similar argument about Jack Ma’s Alipay. However, what is NOT true is your insinuationthat this is some sort of widespread standard operating procedure in China.

            Are you also saying that Zou hou mem does not exist in China? That is not necessary to know the judge in law suits. Can you even give me one legal case in China where the foreigner has won a contract dispute?

            What have I said to suggest I don’t think that using connections doesn’t exist in China? It exists in business everywhere.

            No, it isn’t necessary to know the judge in lawsuits but yes, there are corrupt judges.

            http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/chinese-court-sides-with-canadian-solar-in-contract-dispute-with-ldk_100011399/#axzz3AhqibGJO

            If you want examples of foreigners winning contract disputes, I recommend you go to chinalawblog.com.

            Are you also telling me it is not common in China for employers to fine their employees over the little things not to pay them? That many times construction firms will have workers work for months on a project and then not pay them, causing some to commit suicide?

            Are you also saying that English Language schools in China never cheat their foreign teachers out of months of salary?

            Again, what have I said to suggest I am telling you such things? Please quote. Otherwise, stop putting words in my mouth and stop using the poisoing the well fallacy in order to skirt addressing the points I have made.

            I guess you will say it is not true if a foreign worker or teacher tries to sue for pay owed them by a school or company will soon find their work Visa revoked. so they cannot even bring their Chinese bosses to court?

            Your work visa is revoked if you don’t have an employer, not because you tried suing. It is your responsibility to understand how you can remain in China with a valid visa if you wish to do so in the course of pursuing legal action. Often, your physical presence isn’t even necessary. You can obtain business visas through your legal representation as well. You are making baseless accusations based on ignorance.

            I am also guessing it is only more of my hyperboles when I mention the “Trust Crisis” in China? I guess it does not exist? Chinese are confident in the quality of their food, their medicines, hospital care, government officials, etc..

            What did I say (quote me) to suggest that there isn’t a “trust crisis” in China? You are putting words in my mouth again, creating a straw man to attack instead of actually addressing the points I have actually made.

            All of my examples are only hyperboles?

            I never said your “examples” are hyperboles. I quoted specific statements you made and characterized them as unfair hyperboles. If you don’t think they are hyperboles, please argue how your statements do not meet the definition of hyperbole. Don’t just put words in my mouth and make false accusations.

          • Wodowsan

            Kai, as for The meat packing it mother company is an American company. The six managers though that have been arrested were all in charge of the Chinese operation. Interestingly none of their names have been realized by the authorities.

            I am not trying to put words into your mouth. I am aware you a moderator and that you are aware of what I am talking about.

            I recommend the China Question 2011 to answer your question about he patents. It is also part of the requirement to give you patents to your Chinese partners who own at least 51% of the company. I recommend to you: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/tag/doing-business-in-china/

            I also have a friend he runs a Business consulting firm in Shanghai. MBA from Oxford university and has lived in China and Taiwan combined for over 20 years. He was able to get past the partnership requirement by having his company registered in Hong Kong.

          • Kai

            I am not trying to put words into your mouth. I am aware you a moderator and that you are aware of what I am talking about.

            Please consider how your phrasing comes across as flippant. For example, what if I said:

            “Are you saying the American parent company and management are not ultimately responsible for the operations of its Chinese factory? Is it not true that they are ultimately responsible for monitoring the practices of their employees, regardless of what race/nationality/ethnicity they are?”

            …when you said absolutely nothing about Shanghai Husi or that parent companies and managers are not responsible for the actions of their subbordinates?

            Because that is how you have repeatedly responded to others and myself. It tells us you are trying to justify your contempt for doing business in China but it is not actually responding to what was said before. This is an infuriating way of engaging in conversation.

            If you keep asking–even rhetorically–if I am “saying” this or “telling” you that, or if this or that is “true or not”, then yes, you are putting words in my mouth. I understand you are trying to cite examples substantiating what you think is your position that you think others are disagreeing with, but your phrasing is inherently inflammatory.

            I recommend the China Question 2011 to answer your question about he patents. It is also part of the requirement to give you patents to your Chinese partners who own at least 51% of the company. I recommend to you: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/tag/

            Your link to IPWatchDog does not directly substantiate your claims that the Chinese government requires all patents to be handed over to the Chinese, enabling them to produce products without their foreign partners. You made a very specific claim. You should provide very compelling evidence. You have not done so.

            I also have a friend he runs a Business consulting firm in Shanghai. MBA from Oxford university and has lived in China and Taiwan combined for over 20 years. He was able to get past the partnership requirement by having his company registered in Hong Kong.

            I don’t see the relevance of this last paragraph in addressing anything I have said. His educational background, years in China/Taiwan, and/or registration of a company in HK does not affect the fact that your claim that it is necessary to have a Chinese partner in order to do business in China is not true.

          • Wodowsan

            If you presented me a question I would answer it.

            Yes, I do think the American mother company should take responsibility. It is already hurting their sales, as it should.
            I am sorry, but I am not offended or upset by you phrasing it in that manor. Just because you present that question to me does not make me think you are saying that is what I am saying. You are asking me if I agree or disagree with your statement. Much like any good follow up question to intellectually see where we might agree or disagree.
            So I answered you honestly, I have no anger towards you.

          • Kai

            I’ve presented you with many questions you haven’t answered or addressed. For example:

            Did he say otherwise?

            do you know of any country that hasn’t become more assertive of its self-interests (aka “arrogant and belligerent”) as their economy has improved?

            Do you think the bigotry and hostility in China is going to improve by ostracizing China and its society?

            When pressed, you’d perhaps admit and acknowledge the “other sides” others rebut you with, but why not just articulate a fairer representation of the situation from the get-go?

            Why would you even make such a blatantly false assertion?

            Why the unnecessary hyperbole?

            First of all, I never made any remarks about busiesses in China not having to have Chinese partners, so why are you asking me this?

            What have I said to suggest it is “not true that government regulation are not used to steal foreign business once they are establishd”?

            What have I said to suggest I don’t think that using connections doesn’t exist in China?

            Again, what have I said to suggest I am telling you such things?

            What did I say (quote me) to suggest that there isn’t a “trust crisis” in China?

            Yes, some of these are rhetorical questions meant to point out that you are putting words in my mouth or arguing points that I never denied and thus need to be made aware of. Still, how many of these have you actually addressed? Would you say you have fairly acknowledged that you have laundry-listed a bunch of stuff at me that actually has little to no relevance to what I have said to you?

            I am sorry, but I am not offended or upset by you phrasing it in that manor.

            Okay, let me try something closer to what you’ve done:

            You said:

            Not really sure what China has ever done for the U.S.?

            Are you really unsure of what China has ever done for the US? Is it true or not that Chinese purchases of American debt effectively subsidizes American consumption? Are you telling me Chinese purchases of American debt isn’t allowing Americans to live beyond their means?

            Or:

            The only successful business in China have been franchises.

            Are you saying there are absolutely no other businesses in China that have been successful except for franchises? Are you telling me P&G is a franchise? I guess you’ve never heard of how the Chinese market is fueling revenue and profit growth for Apple and Louis Vuitton, neither of which are franchisers?

            If you cannot see how questioning if my position is one that you are projecting onto me is not putting words in my mouth, straw manning me, and thus an objectionable way of engaging in discourse, then I’m at a loss for words. It’s as if you offer a criticism about China and I come back at you asking if you’re saying you hate Chinese people. You are categorically accusing others of holding or expressing positions unsupported by anything they have actually said.

            Anyway, you have made a large number of claims that I have pointed out as being inaccurate if not outright false. Can we get some “honest” acknwoledgement of this?

          • Dr Sun

            As you know Kai China is complicated, very complicated, simply registering your business outside of China, or as a WOFE , will not get you past past needing Guanxi or those little bits of paper you need to hang on the wall to actually conduct business.
            So you will have partners, like it or not.

          • Kai

            Having connections to exploit and needing legally required permits and licensing does is not equivalent to @wodowsan:disqus’s claim that doing business in China requires a Chinese partner with a controlling interest. Your point here is irrelevant to my rebuttal of his claim made in ignorance.

          • Wodowsan

            Some sources of why I still suggest not doing business in China.

            “While some high profile US companies like Apple (AAPL) and Coke (KO) do well in China, at least for now,
            they are exceptions. Most firms looking to produce in China should remember this: casinos need some lucky winners to lure in the suckers.” – J Bernstein

            http://www.theinsightfultrader.com/china-where-foreign-owned-companies-go-to-die/

            “Culture is fundamental to business and that is why global expansion is dangerous, but these difficulties are exacerbated in China. One of the main reasons why the market is so different is because of their nationalist views. Chinese citizens want Chinese people to make money in their country, they do not want American and British companies to immigrate and earn their money. Family and social relationships are important all over the world but no more so than in China and for this they are protective, as are we, of foreigners taking their jobs.” –

            http://uosm2018.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/foreign-owned-companies-in-china-why-is-it-so-difficult-to-succeed/

          • Kai

            You’re free to suggest not doing business in China. You can provide evidence or arguments for why you feel that way. Just don’t make false claims or assertions about what “will” happen. Be honest enough to acknowledge that there are plenty of people and businesses who have had success doing business in or with China. Don’t make black and white statements you can’t defend.

            Do you understand this? Do you agree with this?

          • KenjiAd

            I just wanted to correct one small error in what you wrote above.

            Until quite recently, most branches of KFC and McDonald’s in China were not owned by interdependent franchises, but by US-China joint venture companies. The managers of these branches were therefore paid employees from the headquarters.

            There were mainly two related reasons for this lack of franchising operation that was a hallmark of these fast food restaurants.

            One, till like 10 yrs ago (? not sure exactly what year), there were no adequate laws in China dealing with complex franchising operations.

            Two, partly because of this and partly because of… umm… independent nature of Chinese business people in general, many Chinese franchisees in the past tended to ignore the franchiser’s rules, often creating chaotic inconsistency of menu offerings.

          • KenjiAd

            I know this question was not addressed to me, but…

            You wrote: “Also tell me is it true or not that to do business in China you have to
            have a Chinese partner that must have a controlling interests? Ford is a
            good example of that. Are you saying this is not true?”

            Not true. For example, if you have a restaurant in America and want to set up a branch in China, you can do this without any Chinese partners involved. As someone said somewhere, it’s called “Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise” or WFOE. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign_Owned_Enterprise

            As you said, foreign auto companies all appear to form joint venture firms. I don’t know whether they are choosing this form of investment or some Chinese law requires certain industries, such as auto industry, to form a joint venture. Probably the latter, but I don’t know.

          • Wodowsan

            Yes you are correct, thank you for correcting me. It is allowed and the reason I remembered that the partnership with a Chinese national is more popular is that the tax rate is much higher on a foreign owned company. Yet my understanding is that the Chinese government considers any company that is owned more than 25% by a foreign national is considered a foreign owned company.
            The fake Dr. Sun did state and he is very correct that is nearly impossible to do business in China without connections, meaning you will end up having to have Chinese partners.
            But what they are calling Foreign owned companies, in my understanding, are really not since anything that more than 25% is considered foreign owned.
            I reason I know this is I had tried to open my own school in China and was advised by a Chinese Business consultant and by Chinese businessmen interested in investing that I could not own more than 25% or the government would considered the school foreign owned and hike our tax rates greatly. Also the paper work would be more of a nightmare.

          • Kai

            Yes you are correct, thank you for correcting me.

            Strange, why were you silent when I told you about WFOEs earlier?

            It is allowed and the reason I remembered that the partnership with a Chinese national is more popular is that the tax rate is much higher on a foreign owned company.

            Where did you get the idea that joint-ventures are “more popular”?

            Yet my understanding is that the Chinese government considers any company that is owned more than 25% by a foreign national is considered a foreign owned company.

            Your understanding is wrong. See below.

            The fake Dr. Sun did state and he is very correct that is nearly impossible to do business in China without connections, meaning you will end up having to have Chinese partners.

            Not true.

            But what they are calling Foreign owned companies, in my understanding, are really not since anything that more than 25% is considered foreign owned.

            Not true.

            I reason I know this is I had tried to open my own school in China and was advised by a Chinese Business consultant and by Chinese businessmen interested in investing that I could not own more than 25% or the government would considered the school foreign owned and hike our tax rates greatly. Also the paper work would be more of a nightmare.

            The education industry is one of many industries in China where foreign ownership is regulated, similar to the media industry. The regulations that apply to businesses in the education industry do not necessarily apply to all businesses in other industries. You should’ve picked up on this when I first linked to you to information about WFOEs.

            It is a mistake for you to think the issues specific to your attempt to open a business in one industry applies to all businesses in all other industries. Go ask your Chinese business consultant to confirm what I am saying here.

            This is slightly old but still very applicable:

            http://www.chinalawblog.com/2008/09/opening_a_school_in_china_can.html

          • Wodowsan

            Because a WFOE is considered anything 25% or more that is foreign owned. The is if I am not mistaken in order to sell in China you need to have Chinese partners that own a controlling interest. I would not call owning only 25% as a Wholly Foreign owned Enterprise. Would you?
            Calling them WFOE is almost the same as the Chinese constitution saying their is freedom of speech and freedom of the press in China. Or calling it the People’s Republic of China. When in all reality it is the Party’s Oligarchy of China.

          • Kai

            Because a WFOE is considered anything 25% or more that is foreign owned.

            No, it is not. I have twice or thrice given you a link with clear information about what WFOEs are. Why have you not read it and instead persisting in making ignorant statements?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFOE#mediaviewer/File:Wholly_Foreign-owned_Enterprises.png

            “Foreign Equity: 100%”

            Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise”. You are familiar with the word “wholly”, right?

            The is if I am not mistaken in order to sell in China you need to have Chinese partners that own a controlling interest.

            This is at least the third time I’ve told you that you are mistaken. When you persist in asserting falsehoods in reply to comments where I have corrected you, you are communicating to me that you are either not reading or are uninterested in correcting your mistaken beliefs.

            I would not call owning only 25% as a Wholly Foreign owned Enterprise. Would you?Calling them WFOE is almost the same as the Chinese constitution saying their is freedom of speech and freedom of the press in China. Or calling it the People’s Republic of China. When in all reality it is the Party’s Oligarchy of China.

            Dear lord. Can you provide me a source for where you picked up the belief that WFOEs refer to any business with at least 25% foreign equity? I’m guessing you have no source. If you claim some business consultant told you that, then I’m telling you and providing you references that prove you and that business consultant wrong.

            “In all honesty, Wodowsan, I think if I presented you correct information, you will dismiss them.”

            Please help me understand why you persist in falsehoods despite having correct information presented to you on a silver platter. You have repeatedly made false assertions without ever providing a verifiable source for such beliefs.

          • Wodowsan

            Dear Kai, as I said my information on WFOE was told to be more than one Chinese business man and a business consultant of over 20 years of experience in working for Chongqing, Beijing firms, and has his own firm now in Shanghai.

            I will look into it further. I am more than aware of the word Wholly means. Yet I also have been told by my Chinese bosses that the phrase Winter/summer paid vacations the “/” means “or” one summer they suddenly decided not to pay all the foreign teachers for summer holiday.
            I also learned in my contract that my paid flight to Hong Kong for a new government required visa run was considered an international flight and they would no long pay for my flight back to the States. It seems Hong Kong is not part of China.

            I also will refer you to the documentary “The China Question” that also talks about the partnership requirement.

            These three are my sources. The Business Consultant. Half a dozen Chinese Businessmen in Chongqing, and that documentary.

            I will though look into it further. It is more than possible I have been misinformed. But just trusting what is written in Chinese law I am sorry to say I do not trust since Article 35 of the Chinese Constitution is another lie.

            I am really sorry that my experience in China had been mostly bad, and I was cheated there way too often, seen as another “ignorant American loser that would work in China.” a quote from several Chinese to me.

            I did love teaching my classes, and did make many good friends there that I am in daily contact with and of course the best thing is my wife, but I still would not advise anyone going to work in China, unless they understand they will not be paid what they are promised, and are willing to go just for the experience.

            I would also advise them to have a thick skin when walking on public streets in Chongqing, and get use to middle-aged “Aunties” peering into your shopping cart and announcing to the store what you are buying. When you ask them in Chinese if you can see what they are buying they tell you “your brain is sick.”

            I am sorry if any of my comments are not directly connected to what you have said. I am not saying you are defending or supporting any of these things. I am merely just trying to make my experience and position as clear as possible.

            I appreciate you taking the time and effort to converse with me. But I am not lying or telling falsehoods, These have been my actual experiences. If I had been wrongly informed that is another issue. I have not once called you a liar, being brainwashed, an idiot, or 5 ma. I have presented you only my personal experiences, and what I have learned from Chinese themselves.

          • Alex Dương
          • Wodowsan

            Thanks Alex, I will look into it further.

          • Guang Xiang

            It’s unfortunate that it didn’t end well for you but it can only be say that like a bad marriage, perhaps it’s not written in the stars between you and China. I had my misgivings in China, and I do fall back to just disparaging anything related to China regarding business practices, ethics, and pollution to make myself feel better, but overtime, I come to focus on the positives. It doesn’t help that you were in the more “hardcore mode” parts of China. Jiangsu Province is relatively nicer, and so is Beijing.

          • Wodowsan

            Dear Guang Xiang:
            Thanks for you understanding. Perhaps you are correct that in the areas that are more international like Beijing and Shanghai my experience may have been much better.
            The experience did make me very cynical, and that does not sit well with me. Your words mean a lot to me. So thank you, sincerely.

          • Kai

            as I said my information on WFOE was told to be more than one Chinese business man and a business consultant of over 20 years of experience in working for Chongqing, Beijing firms, and has his own firm now in Shanghai.

            Purported hearsay by unidentifiable people isn’t evidence. There are countless resources both government and private online corroborating what I’m saying and refuting what you have claimed. When confronted with evidence contrary to what you believe or have been told, you need to find a way to reconcile it. You aren’t doing so, you are just categorically ignoring and dismissing everything that refutes your claim. What is the preponderance of evidence?

            I also have been told by my Chinese bosses that the phrase Winter/summer paid vacations the “/” means “or” one summer they suddenly decided not to pay all the foreign teachers for summer holiday.

            “/” does mean “or”. Did they give you a paid winter vacation? If they did, then they lived up to the phrase.

            I also learned in my contract that my paid flight to Hong Kong for a new government required visa run was considered an international flight and they would no long pay for my flight back to the States. It seems Hong Kong is not part of China.

            You did a visa run to Hong Kong while working in China? Does that mean you weren’t on a proper Z visa? That would suggest you willingly entered into illegal employment. I know they are common and I know a lot of people take such employment but the law is still the law. You put yourself at a lot of risk and gave up on a lot of legal protections as a result. If this was the boss you tried to sue, you had no legal standing. Your employment contract was void the moment it didn’t include you getting a Z visa.

            Flights to Hong Kong are generally considered international flights. Those who know the complicated nature of Hong Kong’s “one country, two systems” arrangement understands why. HK/Macau (and Taiwan) flights are still grouped with international flights and terminals in China’s airports. The fact that you have to leave and enter two sets of customs should make this obvious. It’s mildly funny to joke about how HK is supposed to be part of China, but anyone who knows its political history knows why things are the way they are.

            Also, why are you sharing these anecdotes in response to whether or not you are wrong about WFOEs? These anecdotes have no relevance.

            I also will refer you to the documentary “The China Question” that also talks about the partnership requirement.

            I’m not going to pay $20 to see if someone in that documentary says something completely at odds with information from multiple other authoritative sources. If you want to cite that as a source for a belief I have demonstrated to be false, you should quote the exact line in context and perhaps provide a timestamp of when it appears in the documentary. The burden is upon you to provide proof refuting the evidence I have provided demonstrating your belief that WFOEs require Chinese partnership or that any business with at least 25% foreign ownership are called “WFOEs”.

            These three are my sources. The Business Consultant. Half a dozen Chinese Businessmen in Chongqing, and that documentary.

            Two claims of hearsay by unverifiable individuals and one general claim of a one documentary without actual quotation or citation…

            versus…

            http://english.mofcom.gov.cn/aarticle/lawsdata/chineselaw/200301/20030100062858.html

            But just trusting what is written in Chinese law I am sorry to say I do not trust since Article 35 of the Chinese Constitution is another lie.

            False equivalence.

            I still would not advise anyone going to work in China, unless they understand they will not be paid what they are promised, and are willing to go just for the experience.

            Emphasis mine. The pushback you are getting is in part for the indefensible hyperboles you employ in expressing your opinion. You assert that people will not be paid what they are promised when the fact that even you must acknwoledge is that they simply “may not”. The certainty of “will not” is what makes it a “hyperbole”. The fact that you know it is not certain makes it “indefensible”.

            You may have been screwed, though circumstantial information like those you’ve shared above has introduced the possibility that you may have misunderstood your contract or voluntarily entered into a contract with no legal validity anyway. But let’s say you were screwed. You had a bad experience, but that doesn’t justify you ignoring the fact that many other people have had employment in China that has been perfectly fine and where they got exactly what they were promised. It is dishonest to ignore such facts and declare that people will not be paid what they are promised.

            I would also advise them to have a thick skin when walking on public streets in Chongqing, and get use to middle-aged “Aunties” peering into your shopping cart and announcing to the store what you are buying. When you ask them in Chinese if you can see what they are buying they tell you “your brain is sick.”

            Yes, people should have thick skin in foreign countries. That’s good general advice when voluntarily placing oneself out of one’s comfort zone.

            You shared the auntie shopping cart story before. I don’t remember if I asked you this before, but what was the auntie’s body language when she said that. What were the exact Chinese words she said? There’s a probability that it was a good-humored response to you mocking her like calling you “silly”.

            I am sorry if any of my comments are not directly connected to what you have said. I am not saying you are defending or supporting any of these things. I am merely just trying to make my experience and position as clear as possible.

            Yes, I’ve gathered as much. I’ve gathered that you keep repeating certain things because you think they’ll help people understand you better. I’ve gathered that you think people are responding to you in certain ways because they don’t understand you well enough. The thing is, I–at least–am quite specific in what I am responding to. I am also quite up front about acknwoledging valid points and intentions of yours. You in turn should make sure what you are saying is directly connected to what I am responding to. Otherwise you are not being relevant and instead simply changing the subject. That’s infuriating to others even if it isn’t intentionally dishonest.

            But I am not lying or telling falsehoods, These have been my actual experiences.

            I have been very specific in specifying what specific things you are saying or claiming that are false or for which you have not provided compelling substantiation. If you cannot provide compelling substantiation, then the onus is on you to concede that what you have said was wrong or connot be substantiated.

            I have not once called you a liar, being brainwashed, an idiot, or 5 ma..

            I have not once argued that you have.

            I have presented you only my personal experiences, and what I have learned from Chinese themselves.

            I have presented you with verifiable facts, as well as verifiable information from the Chinese themselves. You ignored or dismissed these facts and information for too long, and only now begrudgingly concede that you may have been “misinformed”. The begrudging concession is appreciated, and hopefully you will reflect on how it reflected unfavorably on you to have resisted the facts for so long clutching to beliefs you could not substantiate. You should’ve pledged to “look further into it” the moment I challenged your assertions and offered compelling/authoritative evidence to support my disagreement. You should’ve actually just went ahead and looked further into it at that time instead of doubling-down repeatedly offering flimsy defenses that repeatedly failed to stand up to scrutiny. Ask yourself, would you accept other people’s claims on the basis of purported hearsay alone?

          • Wodowsan

            I appreciate your passion Kai. You asked me what were my sources, I told you. It was not an attempt to sway you. As I also said I will look into more myself. I am skeptical due to my experience that the printed word in China very often has noting to do with how things are actually run. You are the first to tell me that my information on this is different. So I will investigate it further. I gave you my three different sources. If you do not wish to download the documentary perhaps those that are reading our posts will.
            I was working legally for a government run Medical University with the proper VISAs. I even had Foreign Expert documents. The government at the time I was told by my university had changed their policy that for my Visa to be renewed a third time I had to go to Hong Kong.
            I still do not understand you hostile tone in my personal experiences in living and working in China for over three and half years. I am starting to think that your motivation is much more than just trying to moderate and make sure things are balanced. Your motivation is seems to be more ideologically based. I went to China in good faith, having already lived and taught University in Taiwan for nine years, where I was never cheated, and was on a whole treated with the same respect as the Chinese teachers at the university I taught at. I was actually their first foreign teacher.
            China, Chongqing, to be more exact was a completely different experience. At the university for my job interview I showed them my English – Classic Chinese dictionary I had written while in Taiwan. The director of the Foreign affairs office told me I should “Throw it in the garbage” because it was classical Chinese not simplified. I had to explain to this learned woman (that I later found out the foreign teachers called the Dragon Lady) that Classic Chinese was still used in many parts of the world and in anything written in China before 1949.
            Her comment shocked me from the head of the foreign affairs office of a institution of higher learning. I was then told what I could NOT teach. The first time I had ever been told that in my experience as an educator, having taught university in America and in Taiwan.
            My next experience was being told by the American Peace Corp volunteers at the university that the students are great to work with, but the administration was a nightmare to deal with. I soon found that their evaluation of the situation was correct.
            Funny thing was I thought it was just my university. But as I had mentioned before I did a free English Corner for the Chongqing Public Library. When I mentioned the difficulties I was having with the administration of my university and I was thinking of switching schools, my adult students told me that I will find the same problems any where I work.
            That was told to me by a Political Science Jr. High School teacher (a party member) who actually later invited me to give a lecture to his class about how the American government functions which I did as a favor (also for no pay or women, since the teacher was male and his students were way below my age range – I mention this for Dr. Sun.) Another of my adult students was also a party member who worked for the Chongqing Propaganda department. The third was a business man that had switched from working for a Chinese company to working for a company that in was in partnership with a Japanese company and was hoping he could be transferred to work solely for the Japanese in Japan. The fourth was a private student who was a marketing researcher for Ford in Chongqing, who told me he too wanted to work for the Americans and not his Chinese bosses. He had also told me how the Americans had wanted to raise their salaries, but the Chinese controlling partners vetoed it. Oh he was also another source of that if you wanted to sell in the Chinese market you had to have Chinese partners. I forgot him.
            I was starting to think the problem was Chongqing so I considered a university in Chengdu, but then I met an Australian who had been teaching in Chengdu for two years, and had just relocated to Chongqing. He told me how he was cheated many times by schools Chengdu and was hoping things would be different in Chongqing. I had to inform him that I was afraid he may have only jumped out of the frying pan to only have jumped into the fire.
            So, I assume, Kai, you will now passionately try to convince the readers of this site that all my experiences did not happen. So they will think that China is a land of milk and honey, with only friendly, honest, respectful, and kind people to the visitors to their shores. Many are, but many, especially those in authority, are not. Perhaps where you are China it is different, but these were my experiences in Chongqing. Which I do compare to my experiences of living and teaching at several universities in Taipei. I thought at four there and two training schools my first year when I was a student studying Chinese at the Taiwan National Normal University’s Mandarin Training Center.

          • Kai

            I was working legally for a government run university with the proper VISA. I even had Foreign Expert documents. The government at the time, I was told by my university, had changed their policy that for my Visa to be renewed a third time I had to go to Hong Kong or back to America. They told me they will pay for me to fly to Hong Kong and back and count it as a one way trip to New York. That way I would still have a one way trip still available to return to America later on.

            If you had to leave China, it suggests you weren’t on the “proper” visa in the first place. Having to leave China for a Z visa usually means you were changing to a Z visa from something else. If you were working on anything else, that was illegal and a situation you put yourself into.

            If they explicitly told you they would still pay for a one-way trip to New York later and later didn’t, then they went back on their word. I’m guessing you didn’t have it amended to your contract as a precaution. It is still wrong of them to have told you something but failed to honor it.

            I am also more than aware of the “one Country, two Systems” arrangement between China and Hong Kong, and also Macau. The key words are “One Country” so it is not international. Also Many Chinese will boost how Hong Kong is part of China, and support how Beijing meddles and strong arms its political objectives in Hong Kong’s separate political system.

            This is irrelevant. This is like saying the phrase “free speech” should cover all speech in the United States when there are de facto exceptions.

            If your contract stipulated them providing you an “international” flight, you could use the above argument but it would likely fail to what I’ve said: that flights to HK are treated as International in all but name. If the contract only stipuled that you would have one “round-trip” flight paid for, then whether or not a flight to HK is international or not is irrelevant and it boils down to your communications with your employer about how your flight to HK would count as part of your contract.

            If we really want to get to the bottom of this, we’d need the original documentation as well as testimony from your employer. Everything you can say would be hearsay. I’m only responding to you about this in the chance that you might realize things you previously didn’t.

            Yet, when it is convenient for these same Chinese they will consider Hong Kong not just a separate political system, but a separate nation. Such as the Chinese furniture company marking their furniture as imported , and my university onsidering my flight to Hong Kong as equal to my flying to New York.

            You’re complaining about people interpreting things differently when it is convenient to do so. You’ve done the same thing. Everyone has probably been guilty of this.

            As I mentioned above they told me BEFORE flying to Hong Kong it would NOT be considered flying back to New York. Only AFTER making the flight they Change their tune and said it was an international flight and that I had lost my ability to return home to America.

            To the extent that this is an accurate representation of what happened, you have every right to be upset.

            If they had not misinformed me the first time (I won’t say they lied) I would have just paid for the flight to Hong Kong myself which was a lot cheaper, or just returned to America at that time.

            How did they respond to your complaints of being misinformed? That you would’ve paid for the flight to HK yourself had you not been told that the flight wouldn’t count as the paid flight in your contract?

            I still do not understand your hostile tone to my personal experiences in living and working in China for over three and half years.

            You need to review the conversation as it unfolded from my very first response to you that was very courteous in regards to how much benefit of the doubt I gave you. Any “hostile tone” is my growing frustration with your argumentation that I consider poor, irrelevant, or even dishonest. You have a way of responding to people without addressing the things they are actually addressing you about. It’s maddening and it gets to the point where people have to wonder if you’re doing it on purpose. I’m not the only person who has pointed this out before. Another commenter (was it Alex?) once made the same observation.

            Your desire to seem to want to discredit them is

            No, you are misrepresenting me. I don’t “want to” discredit your personal experiences, I am discrediting the false conclusions you are drawing from your personal experiences. I am also challenging the unfair hyperboles you assert while citing your personal experiences as justification for them.

            starting to make me think that your motivation is much more than just trying to moderate and make sure things are balanced. I am speculating your motivation are more nationalist, or racial, or ideologically based.

            Right, the “you disagree with my criticisms of China so you must be a Chinese apologist” argument. Please argue it. Disagreeing with false conclusions and unfair hyperboles does not make me a Chinese nationalist, racist, or ideologue.

            I went to China in good faith, having already lived and taught University in Taiwan for nine years, where I was never cheated, and was on a whole treated with the same respect as the Chinese teachers at the university I taught at. I was actually my primary university’s first foreign teacher.

            China, Chongqing to be more exact, was a completely different experience.

            It was naive of you to think Chongqing, China and Taiwan would be “completely” the same. It isn’t Chongqing, China’s fault for being different from Taiwan.

            For my job interview at the Chongqing university, I showed them my English – Classic Chinese dictionary I had written while in Taiwan. The director of the Foreign affairs office told me I should “Throw it in the garbage” because it was classical Chinese not simplified. I had to explain to this woman in charge of liaisons between the foreign teachers and the administration that classical Chinese was still used in many parts of the world and in most of everything written in China before 1949.

            If she really said to throw it in the trash, that was unnecessarily rude of her. That said, was the fact that traditional Chinese is still used in many parts of the world and in most of everything written in China before 1949 (which isn’t even when simplified characters were instituted) remotely relevant to the teaching position you were being interviewed for?

            Her comment shocked me being that she was the head of the foreign affairs office of a institution of higher learning. I was then told what I could NOT teach. The first time I had ever been told that in my experience as an educator, having taught university in America and in Taiwan.

            What was the job? Maybe your answers and how you carried yourself in the interview gave her sufficient cause to believe you cannot teach what the job required. Was the job about teaching traditional Chinese? About teaching English words that correspond to traditional Chinese characters? About how to make an English-Classic Chinese dictionary?

            My next experience was being told by the American Peace Corp volunteers at the university that the students are great to work with, but the administration was a nightmare to deal with.

            So? How is this relevant? There are tons of teachers in China, both foreign and Chinese, who say the same thing every day. Your subsequent paragraphs say the same thing. So what? Does this adequately substantiate any of the unfair hyperboles you’ve made about doing business in China? No, it doesn’t. It just proves that a lot of people find school administrations and bureacracy a pain in the ass. Should I make unfair hyperboles about doing business in the US based on how big of a pain in the ass it can be dealing with the DMV?

            The fourth was a private student who was a marketing researcher for Ford in Chongqing, who told me he too wanted to work for the Americans and not his Chinese bosses. He had also told me how the Americans had wanted to raise their salaries, but the Chinese controlling partners vetoed it. Oh he was also another source of that if you wanted to sell in the Chinese market you had to have Chinese partners.

            Because that’s true for his industry, the auto manufacturing industry. It is your responsibility to determine if what applies to his industry is different from what applies to the industry you wanted to start a business in. It is your responsibility to do due diligence.

            This whole paragraph about Chinese students wanting to be transferred abroad or work for foreign bosses has no relevance to the fairness of the hyperboles you have made. That’s like me saying black people are a pain to work with and laundry-listing a bunch of anecdotes where I or others have had problems working with black people. I am frustrated with your inability to see how your laundry-listing of anecdotes does not justify unfair hyperboles.

            I was starting to think the problem was Chongqing so I considered a university in Chengdu, but then I met an Australian who had been teaching in Chengdu for two years, and had just relocated to Chongqing. He told me how he was cheated many times by schools in Chengdu and was hoping things would be different in Chongqing. I had to inform him that I was afraid he may have only jumped out of the frying pan to only have jumped into the fire.

            I can’t help but suspect that both of you were echo chambers for each other failing to consider how your own actions may have contributed to the bad experiences you have had. Do you know if that guy was working legitimately in Chengdu for legitimate employers? Was he working on proper Z-visas? Do you know the others sides of his stories?

            No one is denying the fact that a lot of people have had bad working experiences in China, but you still have to consider that hearsay is hearsay and there’s a difference between asserting that someone “will” be screwed versus advising someone that they “may” be screwed.

            As for the “Aunties” in the super market. They were not joking with me. I understand enough Chinese to know. I said before I have taught over 5000 student in Taiwan and China and understand the body language. I also had with me my Chinese girlfriend whom confirmed their reactions. It was not a cultural miss understanding. “Your brain sick” (你的脑已经生病) was the common reaction when I asked them if I could also see what they were buying.

            “你的脑已经生病” is a very awkward phrase. I would’ve expected something more like 神经病 or 你有毛病啊!I won’t go on the record claiming that isn’t what she said because I wasn’t there but it sounds awkward to me and thus makes it harder for me to be sure you understood her completely. I also won’t deny that there are hypocritical Chinese ayis who have unreasonable double-standard reactions. Without being able to question the ayi involved, the only way to get to the bottom of it is to question your Chinese girlfriend for corroboration of interpretation.

            So, I assume, Kai, you will now passionately try to convince the readers of this site that all my experiences did not happen. So they will think that China is a land of milk and honey, with only friendly, honest, respectful, and kind people to the visitors to their shores. MANY ARE, but many, especially those in authority, are not.

            Your assumptions are retarded. I haven’t been trying to convince readers of this site that your experiences didn’t happen. I’ve been trying to convince readers that your experiences are not adequate justification for your unfair hyperboles.

            I am also not trying to make anyone think China is “a land of milk and honey, with only friendly, honest, respectful, and kind people”.

            Can you stop misrepresenting my position? You are straw-manning me and it is completely dishonest. You cannot cite a single sentence of mine to substantiate your dishonest representation of what I am saying in response to you.

            You keep going on and on about your experiences in Taiwan or Hong Kong but none of that is relevant to the fairness of your hyperboles or the truth of various claims such as WFOE ownership. When people criticize your unfair hyperboles about the dangers of doing business in China, they are not saying your personal experiences didn’t happen. They are just saying your personal experiences do not justify your gross generalizations. This should not be this difficult to understand.

          • Wodowsan

            It was a proper work VISA and as I said before I did have Foreign Expert Certificate too with the VISA. I was teaching for a government school, and had to do the health check up each years and also was given resident VISAs each year I was there. The first two years were “L” visas. The last year was a “Z” visa. So it seems the “L” visa were ok for me the first two years, the law it seems was changed starting my third year that I needed the “Z” visa. I am assuming I was not working illegally since I was also given the resident visas and my foreign expert certificate stated that I could work at my university. Do I need to send you scans of my passport?
            Since you want to treat everything I am saying as if in an American court of law, you are correct that anything I tell you that others have told me is hearsay.
            At those standard of discussion I can only suggest than that other foreigner should go to experience China for themselves. Go there to work or try to do business and see for themselves. Time is always on the side of truth and I understand that some people just need to put their hand in the fire to learn it burns.
            Oh, and I agree, with your statement about the U.S. DMV. U.S. Immigration is even worse though, but then any again my saying that is meaningless since I understand you would need notarized affidavits from others to back my claim about U.S. Immigration.

          • Kai

            The reason you had to leave was because you were switching from an L visa to a Z visa. All schools except for private schools are technically “government schools” but that doesn’t mean they do everything in accordance with the law, and the law says you were technically illegally employed for the first two years you were on the L visa.

            The law is clear on this but yes, a lot of employers in China have a history of skirting the law. The reason is because L visas are many times easier to get than Z visas. Some employers also avoid Z visas because it requires documentation for their business. There are employers who have illegally convinced applicants that they don’t need Z visas but the law, again, is clear on this. They are morally culpable for their misrepresentations but you are legally culpable because ignorance of the law is no excuse.

            The government has over time ben cracking down on people working with non-Z visas and that may be one reason why you were suddenly forced to switch. Reputable schools looking for English teachers now make a big deal about specifying that they will sponsor your Z visa. Things are getting better as far as doing things legally (with an corresponding increase in bureaucracy).

            I am assuming I was not working illegally since I was also given the resident visas and my foreign expert certificate stated that I could work at my university.

            Residence permits have nothing to do with whether or not you have the right visa status to be legally employed in China. Everyone who has a visa last longer than a certain number of days and not staying in hotels has to get a residence permit requiring registration with the local police. Your foreign expert certificate also is not a substitute for a Z visa. You may have been misinformed and moral blame for that falls on those who misinformed you but to the extent that you were ignorant of the actual laws or made the wrong assumptions, that blame is on you.

            Since you want to treat everything I am saying as if in an American court of law, you are correct that anything I tell you that others have told me is hearsay.

            “Hearsay” is not strictly an American court of law legal term. It is a specific term for a specific phenomenon. Hearsay does not justify unfair hyperboles or false claims. You cannot possibly be resisting this valid point.

            Time is always on the side of truth and I understand that some people just need to put their hand in the fire to learn it burns.

            Why do you find it so difficult to acknowledge that the “truth” is that people who come to work in China “may” get burned, not that they “will” get burned? You need to acknowledge that you made very specific claims that I have quoted you for, that I have valid reasons to disagree with your claims, and that I have provided evidence for my disagreement proving your claims to be inaccurate or unfair.

            Oh, and I agree, with your statement about the U.S. DMV. U.S. Immigration is even worse though, but then any again my saying that is meaningless since I understand you would need notarized affidavits from others to back my claim about U.S. Immigration.

            You agree with my impication that the DMV is a pain in the ass to deal with; you do not agree with my unfair hyperboles about doing business in the US. This is because I didn’t make any.

          • Wodowsan

            Sorry, Kai. I made a mistake. Only my first VISA entering China was a visitor’s “L” visa and I had one extension that was also an “L”. I doubled checked the dates on them. The other visas I had once I started working for the university for some reason are no longer in my passport, only the resident permits for those years are still on the pages in my passport. If I do remember correctly they were “Z” visas. It is only the last year I was there that I still have the “Z” visa in my passport. So actually I am not completely sure what visas my university had applied for me the first two years I had worked for them, but I know I had them before being able to obtain the resident VISAs.
            But you are correct, Kai, it was my fault that I trusted my Chinese employers when they told me they were giving me a “work” visa, I should have doubled check at the time what the letter code of the VISA was and its meaning. It was also my fault that I assumed that by my doing the health checkup at their government specified hospital for the visa, did not mean I was getting a work visa (even though I didn’t need to for my original visitor’s visa.)
            It was also my fault that assumed that my receiving a residence permit (which I didn’t receive as a visitor) did not mean my VISA was a work visa.
            It was also my fault, when I received a Chinese government “Foreign Expert” certificate listing I could legally work for the school I was teaching at each year, did not mean they were honest with me and obtained a work visa for me (something I was also not able to obtain when I first arrived on my visitor’s visa.)
            So, I think the cautionary tale for anyone going to China to work is; don’t trust your Chinese employers that they will follow the law of the state, because you are still ultimately responsible and it is still your fault if they do not get the right visa for you.
            You have to make sure it is a “Z” visa and you follow all the rules for that year correctly. They do have a tendency of changing the law often. So often that different government bureaucrats will tell you different things since most are also not up to date on what the laws of the land actually are at the moment.
            A symptom I am sorry to say has become wide spread in the American government too. It is the nature of the beast when you have too many laws. Those that are employed to enforce them often do not really know what the laws are. Yet, it is still your responsibility to know what they are. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. So that is why now-days you need to hire a lawyer for almost everything you want to do. Then again they don’t get right all the time too.

          • Kai

            What were the effective dates on your L visa and its subsequent extension/renewal? What was the effective date on your Z visa?

            The visa is only used for entry, after which you need to get the residence permit. I don’t think you have missing visas, but rather you were on an L visa up until you got your Z visa, which would be the same situation as discussed above. You can get residence permits with L visas. Residence permits are all about keeping track of where you are living, and are automated if you are in hotels.

            L visas are tourist visas. Where is 就业 written? In the “remarks” section? It should be because that’s the only place where it should appear on a Chinese visa document. If it is, it just means you’re on a tourist visa for a job interview, not employment.

            Of course I could be wrong, since I am a non-Chinese and some how my misunderstanding and confusion is most likely based on my own ignorance as a foreigner in China and my total lack of understanding of Chinese culture, government, and society.

            Don’t be sarcastic. Being mistaken or ignorant about certain things doesn’t mean you are completely ignorant or totally lack any understanding. Have the maturity and self-esteem to accept mistakes without interpreting them as a reflection of your entire person.

            You are correct, Kai, it was my fault that I trusted my Chinese employers when they told me they were giving me a “work” visa, I should have doubled check at the time what the letter code of the VISA was and its meaning.

            The fault of convincing you that this was okay is on them. All I am saying is you still have to watch out for yourself by doing your own due diligence. This is just good common sense for a world that isn’t ideal. If you never recognize what YOU could’ve done differently to avoid the fate you suffered, you’ll have very little hope of avoiding the same fate in the future. At SOME point, we have to stop blaming others and think about what we ourselves could do better. This is why China knows it has to improve itself and not just blame its current place in the world on imperialism. At some point, they know they weren’t strong enough to prevent their own “century of humiliation” and that’s on themselves. Same for you, same for everyone. We have to take personal responsibility for whatever part we had in what happened to us.

            It was also my fault that I assumed that by my doing the health checkup at their government specified hospital for the visa, it did not mean I was getting a work visa (even though I didn’t need to do the health check for my original visitor’s visa.)

            Don’t assume. Health checks have nothing to do with work visas.

            It was also my fault that assumed that my receiving a residence permit (which I didn’t receive as a visitor) did not mean my VISA was a work visa. Even though It stated my purpose of residence was employment.

            No one gets a residence permit as a visitor. It’s something you have to get depending on where you plan to stay and for how long.

            It was also my fault, when I received a Chinese government “Foreign Expert” certificate listing I could legally work for the school I was teaching at each year I was in China. That did not mean they were honest with me that they had obtained a legal work visa for me (something I was also not able to obtain when I first arrived on my visitor’s visa.)

            A foreign expert certificate is unfortuantely not synonymous with a Z visa (here referring to both a work visa and a work permit). It is something often required WITH a Z visa but it is not itself a Z visa.

            So, I think the cautionary tale for anyone going to China to work is; don’t trust your Chinese employers that they will follow the law of the state, because you are still ultimately responsible and it is still your fault if they do not get the right visa for you.

            Yes, unfortunately, that is the case. The thing is, this is true everywhere, not just in China. All government put the burden of obeying the law on the foreign visitor.

            You have to make sure it is a “Z” visa and that you follow all the rules for that year correctly. They do have a tendency of changing the law often. So often that different government bureaucrats will tell you different things since most are also not up to date on what the laws of the land actually are at the moment.

            I don’t think the law was changed on you.

            A symptom I am sorry to say has become wide spread in the American government too. It is the nature of the beast when you have too many laws. Those that are employed to enforce them often do not really know what the laws are. Yet, it is still your responsibility to know what they are. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. So that is why now-a-days you need to hire a lawyer for almost everything you want to do. Then again they don’t get it right all the time too.

            Yes, very true. Bureaucracy sucks balls.

          • Guang Xiang

            If you believe that China puts ‘safety last’ like in that Kunshan article, there’s no way any of us can take your hyperboles seriously.

          • Wodowsan

            Boy you guys really love that word hyperboles.

          • Wodowsan

            You are right in China safety is first.

            http://news.msn.com/offbeat/china-eastern-plane-aborts-landing-as-traffic-controllers-take-a-nap

            I remember having a flight to Hong Kong from Chongqing. They suddenly had to the turn the plane around. The Flight attendant told us in Chinese “The plane no good”
            One would think they would check that before we took off if the plane was no good or not.
            Let us not forget all the mine disaster in China that don’t happen. Or even Jackie Chen complaining that making a movie in America is annoying because they are “too concerned” with safety.
            Or entire family without helmets (mother father and two children) riding on a scooter.
            Or the use staircases in tall buildings as storage space, so when there is a fire in the building people can not get out.
            Or the fact the first month I was in Chongqing I saw three people killed on the street in car accidents.
            Or one of my university bus drivers flipping the bus because he took a corner too fast and too tightly. Luckily it was after he dropped off the teachers at the other campus and the bus was empty.
            Or that mothers in China sit in the front seat without a seat belt while holding their infant. I think the entire three and half years I was in Chongqing that I saw one baby car seat. Not saying they are not used. I just never saw them, but daily I did see the women holding their babies in the front seat.
            Or how many schools collapsed during the Shenzhen Earthquake due to poor construction. And those that build those building and approved those buildings were never punished. But the Chinese that complained about it and brought forth to the public were arrested.
            Does this mean accidents don’t happen in America? no it does not. If anything I actually agree with Jackie Chen we have become a nanny state and take safety to other extreme that it makes now almost impossible to do anything. I think there is middle ground between China and America that is more realistic when it comes to safety.
            So I guess stating any facts that you do not wish to acknowledge are Hyperboles.

          • Guang Xiang

            The problem is that your statement comes off as ignorant because I’m quite sure you have ZERO firsthand experience of working in the manufacturing sector in China.

            We have the Jiangsu Environmental Protection Bureau, the Suzhou Environmental Protection Bureau, and the Changshu Economic and Development Zone Protection Bureau coming in near three times a week to check on our air and wastewater pollution. They are giving us a hard time because we have certain equipment that produces dB higher than 55 at night even when there’s no residential area near us. The moment they receive any complaints about odor, we get a call at the middle of the night to visit the area and measure VOC levels. In order to receive safety acceptance for certain lines, we have to move the office away from storage, improve dust explosion mitigation for certain areas, and ensure all our equipment location are within the correct fire code. There is a Nanjing youth olympics happening soon and we are required to monitor our radiation levels and transmit data automatically to the bureau even though our plant is 3 hours drive away.

            And you just assume that China puts safety last, based on your computer-chair experience from news outlet. What you have are examples that only supports one side with total disregard of the examples that shows that China DOES NOT put safety last. Confirmation bias.

            Industrial safety is writ in blood, and it unfortunately takes accidents to teach us all a lesson. The explosion in Kunshan is quite surprising because it happened in a industrial city with above average safety standards.

          • Wodowsan

            Problem is I have lived and worked in China. Most of examples I have given you are first hand experience. Also my ex-wife worked in manufacturing in china and told me stories, along with the father of an ex girlfriend who worked in a factory. Also knew a couple in construction who would tear down walls after the inspectors would give them approval, because they can make more for larger rooms. Actually I was quoting my ex-wife who is Chinese from Taipei and would worked for three months every three months in a Chinese factory outside of Shanghai. She is the one that first said “Safety Last.”

            I know you know how too often corners are cut to make an extra dollar. And the safety of workers and consumers are too often not the major concern of those wanting to profit at any cost.

            Oh and I forgot about the fire that started at a language school I taught at because it turned out the classrooms we were teaching in were on an illegal floor. The additional air-conditioners blew the transformer and started a electrical fire. I had to take personal responsibility to get the students out, the Chinese teachers would not leave saying they “had to wait for management to allow them to end the classes” as the hallway filled with smoke. I was the last one to check all the rooms that no students were left behind.

            Read more carefully what I write if you want to pass judgement on who you think I am. I guess I would sound ignorant to someone who doesn’t know what I am talking about and thinks I am just some foreigner reading Western propaganda about China.

          • Guang Xiang

            Do you really think just listing more examples will prove your point? What about all the instances where safety was followed? That one family that did put their helmets on? The construction company that did use safety nets and lifelines? What about my experiences at the workplace? I guess they don’t match the much more satiable narrative. I do admit they’re more fun to tell to your friends back at home, but either way, it doesn’t amount much to discussion. If you’re familiar with the GRE, you should refer to the Analyze an Argument section to see how unsound your conjectures are.

            Again, the point is not that there is no oversight in safety in China. Anybody knows that China has a record in that regard. The point is: you cannot say that China does not care about safety. In fact they are doing their darn-tootin best to fix that. Instead of declaring that China puts safety last like you got it all figured out base on your experience and Western education, you should be looking at the bigger picture. China is rapidly modernizing and of course wants to reach international standards. It’s a large and unwieldy country and enforcing safety culture is going to take some time for the more peripheral areas. There’s a turnover of two generations.

            In regards to western propaganda:

            Current time is not called information age for nothing. Those who control it have huge leverage since the informed smart minority will never be louder than the uninformed majority, in this case, China having zero regard for safety. Confirmation bias is really strong thing to resist. China propaganda has not improved and are quite obvious, meanwhile western propaganda is amazing if you are into anything related to information distribution.

            This way China is a clear loser and is beaten at all fronts but domestic. Even the fact that most China media are
            government funded/controlled – it does not matter much – in US 90% of media is controlled by 6 corps, rendering it effectively as much potentially controlled by oligarchy as China. Media reports what people want to hear, forums are dominated by popular stances, anything else is considered lies. No matter how strong you think you are in resisting the subliminal effects of social media (I too get sucked into the whole China=bad bandwagon), it’s going to happen, it’s all psychology. The only way to resist it is to be smart and always have an open mind, willing to listen to others. If you’re unable to stand China, I can only say that you weren’t able to achieve that mindsight.

          • Wodowsan

            I agree with what you are saying completely. I actually taught a course in Media Literacy first at a college in America and then in Taipei. Its objective was to teach students to be critical consumers of news and the popular media. There is a major problem that only a few companies in America control most of the media in America. Yet it is still better than having only the State control it. IT always bothered me that 7pm in China on most of the Channels only one face appears to tell the news.
            It is like being a policeman and going to scene of a car accident. One of the drivers is a man, the other is your mother. Your mother is a good and honest woman so you ask her what happens. You then write your report and leave. That is not a good policeman. He need to also ask the other driver what happened. He needs to ask the woman on the street pushing a stroller what happened, a man from a five story window washing the windows what he saw from his angle, and of course look at the physical evidence to have a true understanding of the truth. Only asking your mother, no matter how honest and good she may be is not knowing the truth.
            7pm in China to me is like getting the news on every channel from only your mother. Even if she is good and honest you can never know the whole truth. If you go and try to ask the other driver what happened and your mother says “No! you cannot listen to him.” Then I do not trust that the policeman’s mother is that honest and good. That is why I have a major problem with a government that controls all media and censors the internet, censors movies, and books, and allows only one side of an issue, their side. I don’t trust them, and no one should.
            I just had an disagreement with a former classmate here in America that you need to read all points of view to even get close to the truth. Only reading what you agree with will only dumb down any society. My mother always said “You should always try to understand the other side. You do not have to agree with them, but you should still try to understand why they think the way they do. One of two things will happen. One is you find holes in their positions making your own positions stronger or you find that they are actually right and you can learn and improve yourself from what you learn from them.
            Too many times when I while I was in China and things were not done the right way the reply by too many Chinese was “This is China” as if it was an excuse not to do things right. I always felt and still feel “This is China” should be phrase of pride, not a reason for incompetence or dishonesty.

          • bujiebuke

            This guy was just everywhere. What started out as a weak argument on “What did China ever do for the U.S.” gradually went to, Chinese are racists and no one should do business there.

            There was a paragraph that I forgot to address and here’s the quote. “Are Chinese engineers and researcher being held against their will in America to work or are they choosing a better life in America for themselves and their families?”

            – It’s well known that Chinese scholars who come to the U.S. for a Ph.D often have the intention of getting a permanent residency. In order for that to happen, their employer (advisor) needs to support them. Many, not all professors take advantage of this situation by demanding more publications – compelling them to work longer hours. No they’re not being held hostage, not literally. But it’s a clear abuse of power that has no place in academia.

            Yes, it was hyperbole, but not nearly to the same degree as his rants are.

          • meiguo 88

            OK GO HOME! 3Q 88

          • Wodowsan

            I am home.

          • wookai

            Have you ANY clue as to how much local china administrations owe china central bank? In excess of 20 trillion USD. That is not even counting capital flight. Corrupt officials sending out billions to, USA, CANADA, BRITAIN, AUSTRALIA, and etc….

            Chew on that for a while.

          • bujiebuke

            Not really, but neither do you or anyone else. The amount of money that bleeds from Chinese central banks must be pretty high given the astronomical property value in Vancouver. In any case, it doesn’t negate my argument against wodowsaw.

          • wookai

            I did say ‘in excess of’

            People keep whining about the 1.2 trillio USA debt. Peanuts these days.

          • Dr Sun

            links, proof..anything beyond your speculation ?

            did you just forget the other 12.5 trillion in U.S debt mentioned in Wez07’s post ?

        • Anark1

          lol, as if the Americans doing business in China are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, last time I checked dictionary, it’s called making money. Don’t pretend you are here helping China. If there was no money to be made, you simply would have been here

          • Wodowsan

            Read my comment above.

    • Alex Dương

      BTW, why are these stories always missing the “Thank you, evil American
      running dogs, for saving our asses when a tiny country with no resources
      was crushing our own. Now shove your human rights up your ass”
      messages?

      Because that’s a very one-sided view, as bad as the opposing view that China did everything by itself. As bujiebuke pointed out, Japan was not the underdog in the Second Sino-Japanese War. In 1937, it was a world power with colonies in Korea and Taiwan. China didn’t even have full sovereignty within its own borders. Japan had a first-rate army, navy, and air force; China had peasants, lots and lots of peasants, and some German-trained soldiers. Japan planned on winning the war in three months.

      • SongYii

        I was taking a jab at China for always talking about how strong and powerful they are, while having their asses handed to them by what they call “little japan.” Everything I read and hear them say just makes my eyes roll.

        • Insomnicide

          “I was taking a jab at China for always talking about how strong and powerful they are”

          Because China during the Tang dynasty and right now the nuclear armed China is the same as the China tormented by civil war during the 1930s?

          “while having their asses handed to them by what they call “little japan.””
          Little as in size and people. Japan is a small country compared to China obviously, and Japanese people are small compared to Chinese people. There’s no doubt that Japan during the Showa era was a military and economic world power.

          • moop

            “Japanese people are small compared to Chinese people” not really, average male height is 5’7″ for 17 year old males, with chinese 17 year old females being half an inch taller. you’ve been to southern china right?

            “Because China during the Tang dynasty and right now the nuclear armed China is the same as the China tormented by civil war during the 1930s?” no, but it is still ridiculous to refer to Japan as “little” considering how Japan dominated China despite the population advantage. i understand it is supposed to be insulting, but they are insulting themselves as well. after a guy gets his ass kicked and he tells his friends about it, he doesn’t normally say the guy was half my size and was nothing but skin and bones.

        • Alex Dương

          I don’t think you are aware as to how strong Japan was between 1895 and 1941. This is a country that in 27 years (1868-1895) went from an isolated backwater to a regional power after it easily defeated China. Then, in 1905, they defeated Russia to become a world power. The final battle in that war was a complete curbstomp from Japan’s perspective; they basically destroyed the entire Baltic Fleet.

          As I said, by 1937, they had colonies in Taiwan, Korea, and I forgot to mention Manchuria. And during the course of World War II, they easily ran through Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia, and the Philippines; all of which were Western colonies at the time.

          • SongYii

            So, clearly Japan had their shit together, and its absurd for Chinese to demean them by calling them “little japan” . Whats your point?

          • Alex Dương

            My point is you should probably read up on the Second Sino-Japanese War. Otherwise, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • SongYii

            I didnt disagree with anything you said, so i have no idea where you are coming from.

    • Amused

      Ehhh you can forget that man, that would require stuff like ummm history lessons about real history.

      • David

        Perfect, just what people need to learn.

    • mr.wiener

      Let us remember the dead….preferably by not repeating the mistakes that made them die that way.

      • wookai

        Hello there, I agree, respect for the dead is a gentlemans attitude. While we are at it, and recalling you acidic wit, it may be worthwhile to lighten your toilet cleaning chores by posting this vid. While hilarious, that british soldiers grin itself saying it all, it serves as a warning for locals baying for japanese blood. This is not the full version, will try to post it later. Love this british soldier though, he could single handedly take out that entire chinese crew.

  • Don’t Believe the Hype

    CCTV: “And now for something completely different….”

  • Amused

    It would have been nice if the Japs had let them win at least one battle, that way I wouldn’t have to hear my wife harp on and on about how mean they all are. Hell, I’m sure the Japs aren’t exactly thrilled when they think of the total arse pounding they took from my country, but at least they don’t obsess about it… Is it just me, or does anyone else think its really freaky and unnatural to fixate on a war where you got you got beat like redheaded stepchild? It’s not like over in the US they replay over and over how the Brits worked us like a rented mule in the war of 1812 and burned down the White House.

    • Alex Dương

      It would have been nice if the Japs had let them win at least one battle

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taierzhuang

      • Amused

        I’m familiar with the battle, but it always seemed more like a PR victory to be honest. Very Pyrrhic and not gaining anything. In a roundabout way sort of like Andrew Jackson’s in New Orleans that they go on and on about in anytime the War of 1812 is brought up in the US, without mentioning it was fought after the war was over. Seriously, the Brits kicked the living shit out of us in that one : / Point being, we gloss over that war in remedial history. It’s not on tv 24hrs a day…. It can’t be healthy to obsess this way.

        • Alex Dương

          I wouldn’t characterize the Battle of Taierzhuang that way. I can’t speak for your school, but one of the few things I remember about the Battle of New Orleans from high school is that it occurred after the war “ended.” Also, I don’t characterize the War of 1812 as a U.S. defeat, since it ended status quo antebellum.

          I agree that there is an element of obsession involved here, and I think you can find many Chinese netizens who feel the same way. I’m just pointing out that if you’re going to talk about “history lessons about real history,” then you should talk about real history.

          • Amused

            I did mention that the battle was fought post war bro *scratches head*

          • Alex Dương

            You said,

            In a roundabout way sort of like Andrew Jackson’s in New Orleans that they go on and on about in the US, without mentioning it was fought
            after the war was over
            (emphasis added).

            I don’t deny the possibility that some schools teach it without mentioning that, but that wasn’t true for my school.

          • Amused

            Was completely left out when I went through primary school. Didn’t find out the truth till college. Yay public education hahahaha

          • Alex Dương

            I went to public schools K-12 too. For sure, some things are whitewashed / presented incompletely.

          • Amused

            Too true. They really take a brush to how we worked the natives over with that Manifest Destiny stuff too. I don’t think any government or country likes mentioning their failures and warts. Which is why it’s just so strange that China beats herself over the head with that one war over and over. Surely they can dig up one they won and give the people some heroes and some pride.

          • Jahar

            When one county starts a war and it ends in the status quo, you don’t consider that a defeat? They didn’t get what they wanted, and the other side did.

          • Alex Dương

            When one county starts a war and it ends in the status quo, you don’t consider that a defeat?

            No, I don’t. I also don’t understand why some of you view the world in such a black-and-white fashion. Setting aside the truism that there are no winners in war, it remains that some wars end in stalemates with neither “victory” nor “defeat.”

            They didn’t get what they wanted, and the other side did.

            What did “the other side” get, and is that really all they wanted?

          • Jahar

            i’d consider a successful defense of my territory a victory. Otherwise, what would you consider a victory for the defenders?

          • Alex Dương

            i’d consider a successful defense of my territory a victory.

            O…K…I’m sure you know that the White House was burned and Washington occupied in the War of 1812. Yet, the U.S. maintained its independence and did not lose any land. Does this mean the U.S. won the war?

            Let me be clear: I’m well aware that among some Canadians, the War of 1812 is a particular point of pride because the American invasion was repulsed. Yes, I know my country tried to conquer yours (twice), and I know none of the attempts ever succeeded (obviously). But with how low you set the bar for victory, each side can claim to be the victor.

            And really, is that a problem? My goodness, I think that’s a great thing. We have the longest unmilitarized border in the world. The U.S. maintains good relations with the U.K. as well. The War of 1812 expunged all the bad blood and let us forge a new relationship. (Though apparently in the 20th Century, both the Canadians and the Americans had contingency plans in case the other invaded…)

          • Jahar

            I would consider it a loss for the US, and a victory for the British. I don’t see how the US could claim victory there.

            As for it being a point of Canadian pride, I dislike that. They weren’t Canadians at that point, they were British. People from India have almost as much reason to be proud, I guess. Although, the soldiers set out from Halifax, so we Haligonians can claim that much, at least.

          • Alex Dương

            You said, quote, “i’d consider a successful defense of my territory a victory.” When the war ended, did the U.S. have to cede any territory to anyone? No? Then isn’t that a “successful defense of territory”?

            You say that you don’t like it being a point of Canadian pride and that the people back then were British. Well, that may have been the case, but it remains that today, it is the Canadians who commemorate the war the most. The British barely remember it, and neither do we.

          • Jahar

            The Americans weren’t the defenders, The British were. The Americans were the invaders.

          • Alex Dương
    • bujiebuke

      It’s more that the media and by association, the CCP that won’t move on. The Chinese government often uses the war issue as a tool to distract the masses from revolting on various issues of inequality. It’s not to say that there isn’t a group of people who think Japanese atrocities are the most important thing in this century.

      I’d also like to address something else that you wrote.

      “I’m sure the Japs aren’t exactly thrilled when they think of the total arse pounding they took from my country, but at least they don’t obsess about it…”

      There is a vocal group of people in Japan who does just what your describing. They wear shirts depicting an atomic bomb being dropped on a map of Japan in the front often accompanied with the slogan, “we will never forget” at various public events. The Japanese media, tend not to report or cover their opinions.

      • Amused

        Good to know. They didn’t seem too butt hurt about the issue when I was there, just well, kinda racist. But I’m used to that with Asians, I just take it with a grain of salt and remember all the lovely things my father and grandfather had to say about them. People are people.

        • bujiebuke

          “People are people.”

          I think we can all agree to that

    • Insomnicide
      • Amused

        You should read Stilwell’s memoirs on the war. Or Mao’s collected works. Wiki is nice for casual browsing of history but it’s basically like internet Cliffs Notes. Chock full of half the stories and inaccuracies.

        • David

          I like Stilwell but I could not get through all of Mao. Besides you just know he was writing for an audience and there is so much crap there.

          • Amused

            Every writer is writing to an audience, but I know what you’re saying. There were great big heaps of flaming bull hockey in his writings. Guy made a career out of one brilliant idea; i.e. the “lets base our commie revolution on the peasants instead of the workers ” one. Still facts and insights to be gleaned if you can sift thru the mountain of dross.

        • Insomnicide

          I know Wikipedia is very inconsistent in how well they document information but Xue Yue is one of the more famous war heroes in China. And not by propaganda either because he fought for the KMT.

          If you’re really interested in the subject you should look up battles Xue Yue participated in. He was one of the few generals in the army who managed to successfully defeat Japanese regiments again and again.

          • Amused

            My comments weren’t attempting to cast aspersions on the Chinese fighting man, more on the piss poor quality of their overall leadership(KMT and CCP), and while I admit there were exceptions on both sides(Xue Yue, being one), it just seems like they were ill served in general by their generals. Not to generalize about the generality of said generalissimos, but they sucked. They all cared far more about husbanding their personal power than fighting for China. It led to horrible performance. And people need to find another war to fixate on so they can HEAL.

          • wookai

            Please refer to videos posted above. Or below:-)

    • ptptp

      I’d say the Chinese fixation is a lot like the South’s fixation on the Civil War.

      • Amused

        How so? People from the South worked the North until they ran out of war materials and bodies. The war should have been over in a month. What do they have to feel shame over? I’ve lived in the South before, and I never heard anyone beating themselves up for their great grandpa being humiliated. Sure there’s bitterness over the raping/burning/looting/killing, but that’s normal after any war, especially for the losing side. Doesn’t fill the criteria for obsession…

    • AbC

      The Chinese and Koreans will never forget or forgive the Japanese invasion. It’s like asking Jews to forget and forgive what the Nazis did to them.

      That invasion wasn’t just a war, it was ruthless brutality acted by a majority of Japanese soldiers upon millions of innocent civilians. I was told first hand by an elderly relative of mine of his account of when his village got ransacked when he was only 8. He saw a squad of Japanese soldiers butcher his neighbours entire family including children. There was a pregnant woman in his village at the time, who the Japanese squad took turns on stomping on her belly while she screams and begs.

      I personally don’t have any hatred or animosity towards the Japanese as my family and I have grown up overseas. In fact, I find the modern day Japanese to be one of the most polite and helpful people based on my travels. However, I can definitely understand why the Chinese whose families have experienced such tragedy can never forget or get over what happened decades ago.

      • wookai

        How do you feel about the persecution, murder and rape of XInjiang and TIbet? Its not the japanese doing it. Where is the reporting on that and the outrage? It happens as we speak.

        • Alex Dương

          The CCP denies Uyghurs and Tibetans many personal (especially religious) freedoms. Otherwise, the situations in Xinjiang and Tibet are quite different than what happened in Nanjing. There was never a mass slaughter of Tibetans; the oft-repeated “1.2 million” figure has no supporting evidence.

        • AbC

          If you have been to Xinjiang and talked to people from Xinjiang, then you’ll know that Uyghurs mostly live in peace with their own houses and businesses and kids attending schools. They seek an independent state which is denied to them (as there are just as many, if not more Han people in the region than Uyghurs, neither of whom can claim precedence over the other).

          This is completely not in the same category as the Japanese invasion.

          • wookai

            So China didnt invade East Turkistan and rename it XInjiang? Is that your claim?Mass arrests of the indigenous population in addition to torture, murder, rape? Importing han chinese to the region by way of financial incentives? Is this your idea of ‘living in peace’?

          • wookai

            Oh and by the way? I have lived there, as opposed to ‘been there’. Urumqi, Turfan and Kasgar. I have witnessed first hand the brutal repression of the uyghurs at the hands of the repressive policies of that gang of thugs you call the chinese government. Given the lack of media coverage, due to restrictions of free speech, it is not a surprise that the world hears little of what goes on there. And people like yourself play on this. I say this because you claim to have been there. Those who havent, can be forgiven for their ingorance on the issue.

          • Alex Dương

            You do know that Urumqi was never a Uyghur city, right? The name itself demonstrates the area’s Mongolian heritage, as its etymology is Mongolian, not Turkic.

          • wookai

            That is rather careless of you. Unless of course, your source is Beijing University of Social Sciences. I had to set those professors straight back in 2008 in a meeting where I had the opportunity to examine the mindset behind a simplistic, not to mention jaundiced presentation of history. Tell you what, read this, as a starter, and lets take it from there. ‘The 13th Tribe’ by Koestler. Oh and by the way, you may want to delete your comment about uyghur not being a turkic or turkish word. It retains its original meaning even in modern turkish, a language which I and some of my colleagues speak fluently. They are currently staring at your comment, grinning at the fact that you actually posted it in a public domain. Lets have a discussion based on fact shall we?

          • wookai

            Or are you just going to ban my presence here? Now that you are moderator an’ all..

          • Alex Dương

            We ban for violations of our comment policy. Disagreement is nowhere close to a violation.

          • wookai

            Ok great! I really appreciate that. Hey, we can disagree and keep it cool, and again, I respect your views, its always refreshing to chat with enlightened people as yourself. It makes for a more invigorating conversations. Thanks again.

          • Alex Dương

            You misread my comment: I said Urumqi has a Mongolian, not Uyghur, etymology. But even then, it appears that you aren’t aware that while the modern Uyghurs have a Turkic identity, the origin of Uyghur as a moniker is also Mongolian.

            As for backing up my claim, it comes from James Millward. Here’s a screenshot of the relevant page from Google Books:

          • wookai

            Uighur Ürümchi, also spelledUrumqi or Urumchi, city and capital of the Uygur Autonomous Region of Xinjiang, northwestern China. The city (whose name in Uighur means “fine pasture”)

            You would need to know the turkish language for us to have this conversation however, our discussion was not about etymology. It was about the invasion and subsequesnt genocide of the indigenous people, a fact that you are in total agreement with.

          • Alex Dương

            It was about the invasion and subsequesnt genocide of the indigenous people, a fact that you are in total agreement with.

            This is dishonest. I said there was an invasion and a genocide of the Zunghar people, not the Uyghurs. The Uyghurs were not in control of Xinjiang when it was conquered; the Zunghars were. I don’t think you know as much about the region as you think you do.

          • wookai

            That is a rather sanguine reposte. The Uyghurs were not in control of the area but they were there. And, china still comiited genocide and is still there.

            I wasnt being dishonest. I didnt lie or anything like that. Here’s something for you to go over:

            The central Asian country Mongolia is home to more than 20 tribes and ethnic groups, some of which are related to neighboring Turkic populations. The main Mongolian people, Khalkha, live in central and eastern Mongolia while the Tsaatan minority lives in the north of the country. The Oold minority is from the western Altai mountain region and live in close proximity with Turkic people. We have typed the HLA-A, -B, -Cw, -DRB1 and -DQB1 loci by PCR-SSP in these three Mongolian populations as well as a sample of the German population. To examine their genetic relationships, a sample of the Turkish population already typed at the HLA-A, -B and -DRB1 loci were used. Altogether five populations were analyzed: Khalkha (n = 100), Tsaatan (n = 72), Oold (n = 52), German (n = 260) and (Anatolian) Turkish (n = 498). Nei’s unbiased genetic identity (GI) and genetic distance (GD) were estimated from genotypes using PopGene v1.31, and dendrograms were constructed using phylip. The results suggested a close relationship of the Khalkha to the Tsaatan. The Turks and Germans were equally distant to all three Mongolian populations. These results confirmed the lack of strong genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks despite the close relationship of their languages (Altaic group) and shared historical neighborhood. This study has provided useful population data for genetic and anthropologic studies bridging eastern and western populations.

          • Alex Dương

            The Uyghurs were not in control of the area but they were there. And, china still comiited genocide and is still there.

            You admit they were not in control of the area; therefore, while China invaded the area, it did not invade “East Turkestan.” And the genocide was committed against the Zunghars, not the Uyghurs.

          • wookai
          • Alex Dương
          • wookai

            ‘My goodness. You actually consider yourself a scholar?’

            No, but you obviously do. I did that in jest. That is why you see no comment from me next to the link.

            What would you have me do when you are hurling CCP doctrine and wikipedia at me? I was tempted to quote from Britannica but I was afraid it may sizzle your…..ipod:-)

          • Alex Dương

            I pointed you to a page from a published book written by James Millward, who is a historian at Georgetown. Did I learn of that from Wikipedia originally? Yes. That’s the thing about Wikipedia: good articles contain verifiable citations; bad articles contain no citations or incorrect citations.

            If you think Britannica supports your case, by all means, quote from it or link to it.

          • wookai

            A ‘published’ book……? As opposed to? Ok ok I’ll behave, but, ok ok I’ll behave.

            So which was it? A published page of a published book which was published on wikipedia whose original source was CCP or, was it Mr. David WONG? It seems CCP has been rather active on wikipedia. Millward has gleaned almost entirely from CCP directly or indirectlly.

            Back to square one.

          • Alex Dương

            OK, this is my last reply to you on this subject since you have confirmed that you have no actual interest discussing the facts; you’d rather push Uyghur exile propaganda as “the truth.”

            The book I took a screenshot from was published by the Stanford University Press in 1998. I learned of it from Wikipedia, but Wikipedia did not publish the book. If you have issues with Millward’s scholarship, you’re free to disagree with him and present alternative sources.

            Did you do that? Kind of. You pointed to what was basically a blog post hosted on a subsection of CNN that contained no citations whatsoever and that CNN itself explicitly stated they did not verify. You then immediately backed off when I called you out on it by saying it was just a joke.

            My conclusion from our “discussion” is that you really don’t have the slightest idea of Xinjiang’s history beyond what you’ve read from Uyghur exile propaganda.

          • wookai

            You said
            The book I took a screenshot from was published by the Stanford University Press in 1998.
            I learned of it from Wikipedia
            but Wikipedia did not publish the book

            Ok. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, I ask you to present your sources. You persist in lazy evasion. Evading first, the assertion that china is in no manner nor form, in a position to prate about invasions and the butt hurt thereof.

            Also, your continual denial of persecution of uighurs at the hands of china, or glossing over facts, jaundiced not to mention airy dismissals of chinese atrocities perpetrated daily, rebuttals sourced from dubious characters who post on wiki, lack of humour when presented with a CNN article ( i was offended at your lack of jokiness, also very indignant at not getting an up vote for it) and all to justify misdirection of china’s aggressive policies with all its neighbours with the exception of north korea.

            CHew on that while i pop outside for fresh air. Yes, fresh air. Hint hint. Currently outside mainland.

          • Alex Dương

            CHew on that while i pop outside for fresh air. Yes, fresh air. Hint hint. Currently outside mainland.

            You do realize you were *cough* “discussing” with an American, yes?

          • wookai

            Given the cough, I’d say an american in mainland:-)

          • Alex Dương

            You may (or may not) have a low impression of us, being a Brit and all, but rest assured, we have a much better education system than China does, and you cannot so easily push propaganda as truth to me, or anyone else who stayed awake in school. You chose to buy it, and you’re well within your rights to be as deluded as you wish.

          • wookai

            Glad to see no vestige of insecurity on your part yet, would hasten to assert that feeble attempts at transference merely enforce perceptions of an emerging interest among CCP cadres in the art of sophistry. I commend your interest in the subject but give you detention for the dismal performance. See me tomorrow for lesson 2.

            ‘Night.

          • wookai

            Oh by the way, I would suspect that most countries have a better education system than china.

            Please, have some consideration for your host country and do not compare with china. China and north korea?That would be more….fitting. Again, ‘night.

          • wookai

            ABC at that.

          • Dr Sun

            “Lets have a discussion based on fact shall we?”

            “Beijing University of Social Sciences”. I had to set those professors straight back in 2008 in a meeting …”

            fact- there is no Beijing university of social sciences

            universities in Beijing with social science depts/programmes:

            Peking university

            Beijing university of science & technology

            Beijing Normal University

            Chinese Academy of social Science (CASS)

            Beijing Language & Culture University (BLCU)

            University of Chinese Academy of sciences (UCAS)

            The Capital University of Economics & Business

            Beijing Foreign studies University (BFSU)

            Beijing Academy of Social Science (BASS)

            full list of existing universities in Beijing: (note that there is no Beijing university of social sciences)

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_colleges_in_Beijing

            Do you have the names of the professors from this non-existent university that were present at this “meeting” so we can invite them to comment ?

          • wookai

            2nd Last. In 2008, they called it University. In real life. Not in Wikiland.

          • Dr Sun

            and the professors present, their names ?

          • wookai

            Ah yes, the year being 2014 and the lessons/meetings took place in 2008, their names being in my little black, oh sorry, RED book.

            I was working for Bell International. Go ask them. You may even get my real name out of it.

            Do i sense a case of butt hurt? That your esteemed professors required a brit to hand their asses to them?

            Now, don’t even think about posting again until such time as when you learn some big words. Like ‘if’ and ‘um’.

          • Dr Sun

            I find it hard to believe that after handing these “esteemed professors” their collective asses, most likely your greatest moment, you simply and conveniently forgot all their names.
            Plus I never realized that Capital university did academic exchanges with the U.S beauty industry ( Bell international laboratories) it seems an odd partnership .

          • Alex Dương

            It wasn’t “East Turkestan” when the Chinese invaded; it was the Zunghar Khanate. The Zunghars were a people of Western Mongolian origin, and I use past tense because the Chinese committed genocide on the Zunghars, not the Uyghurs.

          • wookai

            So we at least agree on the fact that china invaded? And is still there? We’ll dissect the rest of your comment after you have answered this to my satisfaction.

          • Alex Dương

            Yes, China invaded, and yes, there was a genocide. No, China did not invade “East Turkestan”; they invaded the Zunghar Khanate. And no, the Chinese did not commit genocide against the Uyghurs; they committed genocide against the Zunghars.

          • wookai

            Oh that’s ok then.

          • Alex Dương

            ? It’s not “OK”; genocide is never “OK.” Far from it. But you wanted to talk about facts; these are the facts: the Chinese did not invade “East Turkestan” and did not commit genocide against the Uyghurs. They invaded the Zunghar Khanate and committed genocide against the Zunghars.

          • wookai

            But. They still occupy that land. While they moan and groan about japan. Lets take a look at today. South China Sea. East China Sea. No fly zones etc. Lots of bullying going on dont you think? So, glass houses. Stones.

          • Alex Dương

            Who should they give it back to? The Zunghars don’t exist as a people anymore, and you admit that the Uyghurs weren’t in control of the region at the time of conquest. Besides, if you feel this way, then do you think whites who were born in the U.S., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand should leave too?

          • wookai

            ‘Besides, if you feel this way, then do you think whites who were born in the U.S., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand should leave too?’

            Interesting yet entirely understandable, not to mention predictable, that you would drag this into the conversation. How do you feel about it?

          • Alex Dương

            Of course I don’t think they should “go back to Europe.” That is absurd. Clearly you feel the same way, yet you think the Chinese should leave Xinjiang. Seems inconsistent to me.

          • wookai

            ‘Of course I don’t think they should “go back to Europe’

            Is that why you brought it up?

            As to my saying china should leave. Well it’s not me, its the indigenous people who would like that. Not for your nor myself to say. I mean they could stay. If they could only stop misbehaving. Killing and burning locals alive and that kind of thing. I mean what is this? The Chu Chung Klan?

          • Alex Dương

            It’s really hard to say who is “indigenous” in that part of the world. Uyghurs have been in the Tarim Basin (the southern half of Xinjiang) for a very long time, but the ones in the northern half don’t have a stronger claim over that of Han, Hui, and others.

          • wookai

            Agreed. Except for that devious little insertion of the han in your statement. They were recently imported. As to the Tarim Basin, your source wikipeadia is mostly, if not all, the results of wumao soldiers’ feverish yet futile attempts at glossing over china’s theft of land and resources. You know, gold, oil, gemstones etc. They had australian specialistst over to assist in mining the gold, then unceremoniously ejected them from the country as soon as they thought they could manage alone. I was there, in 2006, those guys from australia had much to divulge….

          • Alex Dương

            It’s true that most of the Han and Hui in Xinjiang are recent migrants. But since 1758, with the exception of a brief period in the 20th Century, Xinjiang has always had a large Han and Hui minority. For someone who purports to be a scholar, I think you aren’t well versed in judging how reliable your sources are.

          • wookai

            ‘ But since 1758….’

            And before that?

          • Alex Dương

            As I told you, before 1758, the Zunghars were in control of the area. There were hundreds of thousands of them, if not over a million. The Uyghurs were concentrated in the southern half of the Zunghar Khanate.

          • wookai

            Yes, you did froth a few times about that as i recall yet conveniently insert the word ‘control’ whereas you know, as well as anyone with at least half their wits about them, that the uygurs were living side by side among the Dzungars even if they were not in ‘control’ as you put it.

          • Confucius.mod

            Alex, wookai is clearly trolling, with moving goalposts. Every time he is prove wrong on a point he goes on a new tangent and another new provoking statement. You won’t get him to admit he is wrong, nor are you going to hear a reasonable acceptance of an opposing view. Don’t feed the troll.

          • Confucius

            The British invaded Australian in 1788. I’m guessing I shouldn’t be bringing this up since we’re all China-bashing here.

          • wookai

            East Turkestan is a large, sparsely populated area, covering 1. 6 million km². It accounts for more than one sixth of China’s total territory and a quarter of its boundary length. Located in Central Asia, it is bordered by Russia in the north, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan to the west, Afghanistan to the southwest, Pakistan, India and Tibet to the south, China to the east and Mongolia to the northeast.

            The name “Turkestan” is Iranian in origin, meaning “land of the Turkic peoples” and dates back to the 5th century. The western part of Turkestan was gradually conquered by the Tsarist Russia in 1865, after which it became known as Western Turkestan. After the formation of the Soviet Union in 1924, the Western Turkestan was divided into five republics: Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan.

            !!!!!!!!!The eastern part of Turkestan had been invaded by the Manchu rulers of China in 1876, and was named East Turkestan. It is the cradle of Uyghur history, culture and civilization.!!!!!!!!!

            The number of people living in East Turkestan is a matter of considerable debate. No satisfactory census of population has ever been made. According to the latest Chinese census the present population of East Turkestan is slightly over 19 million. Of that they state Uyghurs make up 9 million, Chinese 7 million, Kazaks 1.5 million, Kyrgyz 170 thousand, Hui 800 thousand, Mongols 170 thousand, Manchu 22 thousand, Xibe 40 thousand, Tajik 40 thousand, Uzbek 15 thousand , Tibetans 6 thousand, Tatars 5 thousand, Dagur 7 thousand, Russians 10 thousand, other smaller groups 10 thousand. Uyghurs, however, dispute these figures claiming the Uyghur population to be around 20 million.

          • Alex Dương

            You shouldn’t confuse Uyghur exile propaganda for the truth. It’s no better than CCP propaganda. Tibetan exile propaganda is similarly bad. The truth is a hell of a lot more interesting than either side presents.

          • wookai

            It’s no better than CCP propaganda.’

            Which is…..?

            I mean, I’d just like to have you highlight the official CCP line. Maybe I am wrong, maybe, but, it does seem rather similar to your position…..

          • Alex Dương

            As far as I know, the CCP dates Chinese claims to Xinjiang back to the Tang Dynasty, if not the Han Dynasty. I don’t accept that because Xinjiang was not a part of the Song, Yuan, or Ming Dynasties. Similarly, the CCP dates Chinese claims to Tibet back to the Yuan Dynasty, but the Ming did not have control over Tibet. I date Chinese claims to Xinjiang and Tibet to 1758 and 1725, respectively.

          • wookai

            ‘As far as I know….’

            I choked on my coffee up to this point.

            ‘the CCP dates Chinese claims to Xinjiang….’

            My dear fellow, the ccp, is currently claiming half of Asia. Or at least the east and south china sea, right up to the beaches of neighbouring countries. No fly zones announced, only to have them violated the very next day by japan, korea, america and could do zilch about it.

            Too much in the way of banging war drums, and this, may be china’s undoing. Japan is currently beefing up its forces. One would hate for a refreshing of memories.

          • Amused

            Ugh. If every country in the world is going to base claims on other countries according to what used to be, and then we all fight to realign to make them happy…. we’re all going to die in war. Too many old Empires. Hell just Mongolia and England and Spain can whip out old Maps claiming 90% of the world. Why do people even listen to these tired old justifications by rich people to make poor people die for their money? *facepalm*

          • wookai

            5,000 year history! 5,000 year history……..!

          • Amused

            That’s all? That’s all? Hahahaha

          • wookai

            LMAO!!! sorry i just could not help it! Hahahaha…..

          • Amused

            Meh, its just disinformation. Is funny tho :))

          • wookai

            They should have a ‘ I am taking the piss’ button in addition to the up/down votes. You seriously did not think i was serious. Good GOD man!

          • Amused

            By god you were COMPLETELY serious sirrah! You shall be hearing from my seconds! I will defend the honor of my wife’s people’s 5000 years. It’s not much, but it’s all they have!

          • wookai

            Careful there M’lord. It”s dragons they be dealing with:-)

            MY lord…..

          • Amused

            Oh shit, I left my lizard repellant in my other pants. Can I call a time out???

          • wookai

            Hahahaha,ok ok. I’m off for now too. ‘Night to you all.

          • Alex Dương

            You changed the subject so many times in that reply that your post is incoherent. I differentiated my position from that of the CCP. If you’d like to discuss that, feel free.

          • wookai

            Elaborate.
            Differentiate.

          • Alex Dương

            I will gently remind you that trolling is not the same as disagreement. If you’d like to actually present sources that support your claims, that would be consistent with disagreement. Should you do that, I’d be willing to discuss them with you. But if you want to claim that I have not presented any sources and have “evaded” your requests for them, that’s not disagreement; that’s trolling.

          • wookai

            You just admitted to the fact that china committed genocide. See? We ARE in agreement.

          • Alex Dương

            As I told you just now, we are not in agreement insofar as you believe the genocide was committed against the Uyghurs. That is untrue. At the time of conquest in 1758, the Uyghurs were not in control of Xinjiang; a Mongolian people known as the Zunghars were. The Chinese committed genocide against the Zunghars.

          • AbC

            you really need to do some research prior to making uneducated responses. East Turkistan is simply what the Uyghur population calls Xinjiang. Neither side has enough history to predate the other in the area. The Zunghar tribe (the indigenous people before both the Han and the Uyghurs) was wiped out by the Qing dynasty over 250 years ago. In no way am I supportive of that genocide. In fact, I’m generally in opposition to most of the policies of the current PRC (CCP).
            When I said the Uyghurs mostly live in peace, I meant that most of the Uyghur population in Xinjiang coexist and get along fine with the Han population. Most of the Xinjiang Chinese people I have talked with have spoken kindly of the local Uyghur population and many have friends and neighbours who are Uyghur.

      • Amused

        All those people you have beef with are dead. Let it go. Rome completely hosed every indigenous people in Europe and N. Africa far worse than the Japs. They’re dead. People got over it. The Mongols did the same throughout all of Asia. They’re dead. People got over it. Seeing a pattern here?
        Not saying you gotta love your neighbor, just stop obsessing over his grandpa.

        • Alex Dương

          He said he didn’t have any issues with the Japanese today.

          • wookai

            You said:
            ‘He said he didn’t have any issues with the Japanese today.’

            ‘HE’ said:
            ‘The Chinese and Koreans will never forget or forgive the Japanese invasion.’

            I doubt he’s about to invite a japanese national over for chai anytime soon though….

            Just a thought…

          • Alex Dương

            He also said, quote,

            I personally don’t have any hatred or animosity towards the Japanese as my family and I have grown up overseas. In fact, I find the modern
            day Japanese to be one of the most polite and helpful people based on my travels. However, I can definitely understand why the Chinese whose families have experienced such tragedy can never forget or get over what
            happened decades ago.

            Seems like he has no problems inviting a few over for tea and mochi.

          • wookai

            So we agree on at least that he is bipolar.

            Can I come for the mochi? Pleeeeeeaaaase?

          • Alex Dương

            I don’t think he’s bipolar at all.

          • wookai

            That would explain it.

          • Amused

            ??? “stop obsessing over his grandpa” ring any bells???
            Come on man…

          • Alex Dương

            Wasn’t that a reference to “your neighbor”?

          • Amused

            Ok, I’m not going to insult you, because I’m just guessing you aren’t trolling and that English must not be your first language bro. If it is, well either you’re trolling or you missed the plot and this will be an inadvertent insult. Let me break it down. The term “neighbor” when referring to countries, means the countries that are geographically close to you man. So one of China’s neighbors would be Japan. I said “You don’t have to love your neighbor” meaning I don’t care if he’s not exactly lovey-dovey with the Japs, just that he not be prejudiced. The rest of the sentence was “Just stop obsessing over his grandpa”, indicating my desire for him to get over the history and live in the present. On a side note, if he was 90 and he actually got hosed PERSONALLY by Imperial Japan, well I’d say let him carry that shit till the grave; a man’s vengeance is personal business.

          • Alex Dương

            English is my native language, and you misread what AbC wrote. He never said he didn’t like the Japanese, so it’s really odd to me that you try to admonish him with “not saying you gotta love your neighbor.”

            I know what you were saying; I just don’t think it was a fair read of his comments.

          • wookai

            Ok off the topic slightly. May I be a MOD please? So i can spell out for those who misread? Particularly abc’s and the like….

          • Amused

            Ok. Maybe where you learned English “The Chinese and Koreans will never forget or forgive the Japanese invasion” means something else. But where I’m from…. And please note, as I had never even heard of AbC, I did not direct the original comment at him. Rather I was speaking to the effect that China needed to move on and get over the loss. Sooooooo

          • Alex Dương

            Can we have some honesty here and not pretend that he didn’t say the following?

            I personally don’t have any hatred or animosity towards the Japanese as my family and I have grown up overseas. In fact, I find the modern
            day Japanese to be one of the most polite and helpful people based on my travels. However, I can definitely understand why the Chinese whose families have experienced such tragedy can never forget or get over what
            happened decades ago.

            And please, when you reply to him and refer to him in the second person (“you” / “your”), don’t try to cover with “I did not direct the original comment at him.”

          • Amused

            Well chief I was trying to steer the thread back on argument, buuuuut while we’re at it, he’s clearly got issues with them. First he recounts his family tales of atrocity with full gory details, and then he says “oh but I don’t have any hatred”. Now maybe that jibes as sound to you. But to me its like hearing an old white man from the American South go on about all the nasty things he’s ever heard about black people and then end the diatribe with “but I’m not a racist”… Am I reading too deep into it?

          • Alex Dương

            You are. He said nothing more complicated than, “I don’t hate, but I get why some do.”

          • Amused

            That’s a very common dodge used by people who hate. But if it will make you feel better…. I hereby apologize if I in any way misconstrued his comments, and he’s really not trying to perpetuate the situation by recounting his war crimes tales. On the other hand if I DIDN’T misconstrue, then you’ve been defending his weird two faced hate. Either way, now my conscience is assuaged.

          • Alex Dương

            You obviously disagree and prefer to equate a balanced three sentence paragraph to “[insert vile racism here]…but I’m not a racist.” Up to you.

            Moving on, since you used black racism as an example, let’s talk about this. Do you equate museums / exhibits to slavery with an unwillingness to “get over” slavery?

          • Amused

            Nope. But if there were programs about slavery on government controlled TV 24/7 then yeah, that would be blatant race baiting. People should listen to history so that it doesn’t have to repeat itself. But if you start fixating on any one particularly nasty piece that happened to your people(and let’s face it, no matter who you are, your people have been on the losing side sometime), then you begin to lose perspective, think of yourself as a victim, carry hate in your heart, and generally become a person no one wants to be around. Would you disagree?

          • Alex Dương

            I agree. But in my opinion, what you just said is not the same as what you said previously to AbC. What you just said was balanced; what you said before gave an impression as if you were saying that the past should be forgotten.

          • Amused

            The past shouldn’t be forgotten. The hate should be forgotten. Got to love the internet. Too damn easy to misunderstand each other and squabble over semantics.

          • AbC

            For someone whose apparent first language is English, your comprehension skills is deplorable. It’s either you have a lack of understanding of the English language, or your brain can only process small bits of information from a sentence without understanding the whole meaning.

          • Amused

            Awww, don’t get butt hurt. You made the statements you made. If you’re expecting to not catch flak over perpetuating your hatred for dead people, you’re being unrealistic. If you think it would make you feel better I suppose I could add a few insults, but really, I mean I assume you’re an adult.

          • AbC

            I would invite you to read through what has been written throughout the entire dialogue again and see why you have failed to comprehend what was said.
            I was merely directing that line at your response to Alex Duong, assuming English is not his native language and insulting his language skills. You accused him of missing the plot whereas in reality, you were the one that missed the plot.

          • Amused

            I was “merely” being polite to Alex as he’s astonishingly civil, but a bit of a nitpicker. I’m just figuring he gives EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt, which is a noble and thoroughly respectable(if annoying) trait. The guy’s a white knight. I would “invite” you to reread what you wrote and take a stab at figuring out why someone MIGHT get the idea you weren’t over it. Also, sorry if I dip below acceptable levels of nicety in my responses ATM, I’m also arguing with some bigoted D-bags over on CNN over the whole Ferguson thing and I haven’t slept for well….. a long time.

          • AbC

            I don’t believe I included myself when I referred to ‘The Chinese and Koreans’ which it seems was the basis of your argument. Otherwise, I can’t see how my comments could have been misconstrued. I used terms such as they and them rather than we or us.

          • Amused

            Well you did name yourself ABC bro… Maybe I just read into that and you’re a big Jackson 5 fan :)

          • Alex Dương

            Thanks for the compliment on the civility – we try our best – but trust me, there is definitely a limit to how much benefit of the doubt I extend. If there’s some ambiguity or nuance, I try to read it fairly, but if the post is pretty obviously one-sided, then there’s only so much I can do.

        • AbC

          I do not have any beef with the Japanese at all. All I said was that I don’t think it’s right for outsiders who rely only on news articles and history books, to tell the Chinese population whose family (generally parents or grandparents) have been severely affected by the ruthlessness of the invasion, to simply forget and forgive as it’s in the past. I retold the story that I was told to get people to understand WHY its difficult for certain segments of the Chinese population to ‘get over’ what happened decades ago.
          Japan has since vowed not to involve itself in such conflicts and the population nowadays are made up by mostly peace loving people who I have had the pleasure to meet and dine with on many occasions. I have university class mates who are Japanese that agree with many of my views and was not proud of the what the Imperial Army did during the war. I have visited several Japanese cities and have been hosted once by a Japanese family as well. Personally, I think they are wonderful people and I don’t believe it’s right for the Chinese of this generation to incite hate on the modern day Japan. But I personally would not be trying to convince anyone in China to share that view as I can understand why that hatred still exist.
          There’s two sides to every story. I just don’t agree with the views of many westerners who wasn’t directly involved with the atrocities to say ‘what’s done is done, stop obsessing over it’.

          • Amused

            Ok, see that clarifies things. If you had led with this my only issue would be that you don’t think people have the right to condemn each others tendencies to hold grudges. Someone has to say something to people who won’t let history be history. And I’d say eastern people have equal right to bust western people on the same grounds. We live in a world of nuclear war. We can’t afford the old hatreds and rivalries. By all means don’t forget. But everyone needs to let bygones be just that, or Keith Richards and the cockroaches are going to be all that’s left.

          • AbC

            People do have the right to their own opinions. However, I still do not agree with anyone who would condemn someone for not forgiving the slaughter and torture of their parents or grandparents. It’s easy to stand as a third party and say let bygones by bygones. My view is that they have a right to choose not to forgive and forget the atrocities that happened to their family. I do agree with you that they shouldn’t hate or incite hate upon the current generations of Japanese people who has nothing to do with what happened decades ago.

          • Amused

            I’m 1/4 Native American. Yeah, my family doesn’t know anything about loss. Or bygones. I’ve got legitimate reasons to hate Americans of every other extraction including the other 3/4 of my own family. But I’ve been to visit my grandma’s family on the reservation, and let me tell you, holding on to it wasn’t seeming to help anyone there. WW2 and the advent of the bomb took the need to let the past go to another level though…… On a side note, I will admit that every time I read “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” well, I rage. But that’s why I avoid reading it.

          • AbC

            If one was to analyse your comment “I’ve got legitimate reasons to hate every Americans of…”(but you choose not to), then one could come to a conclusion that you do believe the Chinese has legitimate reasons to hate the Japanese. I am probably being too analytical here I admit.

            Although I respect your decision and reasoning to forget/forgive the wrong doings of the past, I think it’s only fair to respect others’ who choose not to. Not everyone has the capacity to let such events fade from memory, especially those families that still have living members that witnessed the horrific event. Maybe time will heal, and maybe it won’t. As long as they don’t incite violence against current Japanese people and businesses (which I strongly oppose), then it’s their ‘legitimate right’ to feel the way they do.

          • Amused

            Everyone has a legitimate right to feel the way they do. But that doesn’t make it right. Feelings definitely influence actions. Enough though. We can let it lie. It will heal with time or it won’t. I just hope both of these peoples can let us have peace and not draw us into WW3.

          • AbC

            Agree to disagree then. I don’t mean to drag this on, but I doubt WW3 would start with these two countries.

            If anything, what’s more worrying is the conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Tension there is at Cold War levels.

  • FYIADragoon

    Every time CCTV posts something like this, you have to start looking elsewhere to see what they’re trying to distract you from.

  • narsfweasels

    “Please Forward/Reshare This For Your Butchered Compatriots”

    Good point sir! Now, let us see the pictures of you lighting a candle on the 25th Anniversary of the massacre in Beijing.

    Or do you only care about “butchered compatriots” that are politically expedient?

    • Jahar

      It’s okay when they do it to themselves.

      • David

        Apparently not only OK, but kind of a requirement by any new government who takes over.

    • Disney English

      Big round of applause for the guy who’s finally cracked it. Propaganda is selective and self-serving in the events it chooses to portray! Who knew?

      • narsfweasels

        A round of applause? Is that it? I expect a parade and a medal at the very least!

  • Guest

    Rest in peace to all the victims of the Tongzhou Incident and to the brave Japanese soldiers who fought for their country.

    • Honibaz

      Obvious troll is obvious.

  • Insomnicide

    It’s been said many times and I’ll say it again, just because Japan has changed and Japanese people are different now, does not mean we should forget history. Even if the anti-Japanese sentiment is ridiculous for non-Chinese, even if Japan is now the ‘underdog’, please show respect to the soldiers who gave their lives to defend China, who sacrificed themselves to defend their homeland and to defend the Chinese people.

    The CCP should stop being all talk as well and financially assist the veterans who fought in the Second Sino-Japanese war that are still alive today. I’ve read articles about how many of them live in poverty and without government recognition despite their old age as well as their contribution to the building of the Chinese nation.

    Also it should be mentioned that while grateful for American assistance, because of contemporary tensions both politically and socially, neither Chinese nor Americans often acknowledge each other’s role in defeating the Japanese.

    • Amused

      I think anyone would agree that any country that wants to be taken seriously should take care of their veterans. As to “gratefulness” on either side of the Pacific…. I’m pretty sure if America really cared that the Chinese were getting steamrolled, they’d have gotten involved sooner. The war such as it was in China was more of just a happy coincidence for us. It tied up a piece of the Japanese forces and drained off some of their war material. The Chinese never really had the kind of successes that would have made them a big part of the war in our eyes(possibly because they had been fighting Japan solo since ’37 and were on the ropes). America was far more concerned with Hitler, Japan was just the country the US govt suckered into pulling us into a war the American people didn’t want. So that doesn’t leave much in the way of causes for gratitude on the American’s part. And on the Chinese side… Well the US supported the KMT, not the CCP, soooooooooo…. Again little reason for gratitude.

    • ClausRasmussen

      >> neither Chinese nor Americans often acknowledge each other’s role in defeating the Japanese

      That’s my impression too.

      I am a little military history buff and have read a lot of material about “the war in the Pacific” but it was only after I got interested in China that I realized the scale of the war in the rest of Asia.

      There is far more coverage in Western sources of the anemic British effort in Myanmar than of the fighting on the Chinese front.

      • Alex Dương

        There is far more coverage in Western sources of the anemic British effort in Myanmar than of the fighting on the Chinese front.

        An excellent point. I agree with both of you that neither side acknowledges the other enough, and this had pretty severe consequences in Korea. The U.S. vastly underestimated the Chinese military because it did not have a good understanding of what the Chinese had done largely on their own for four years before Pearl Harbor. On the flipside, Mao wrongly interpreted the U.N.’s first ceasefire offer as a sign of weakness, and Chinese soldiers paid a hefty price for his ignorance.

  • Cameron

    Irresp single to be trying to fan the flames of hatred of a new generations over events that are now ancient history. Why not every country remembers every anniversary of the abuses it people has suffered at the hands of other nations. It was wrong, but it was of then, not now.

    And I say that as someone who sympathizes with the claim that Japan’s succession of weasel word apologies were never good enough. Not sincere, not forthright. We have the allies post war ambitions to largely thank for that. While certain mlitary leaders (far, far too few) were held accountable for war crimes, Japan as a nation, its government, was never held accountable. That prominent Japanese politicians can still get away with honoring WW2 war criminals is frankly disgusting. And dont let any flimsy excuses fool you otherwise. Japanese people should accept that the actions of their military and government during WW2 was totally indefensible. Sadly, many never will.

    Still, it’s time to move on, and encouragingly I don’t think the current younger generations of Chinese are half as obsessed about the war as the middle age and elderly. A some deep level they can see that, while this is I story, it is being used as propaganda Not a sniff of this stuff on my QQ zone.

  • Xio Gen

    I’m glad to see a real mix of opinions here. I hate seeing a mostly right wing slant of comments on koreabang and japancrush. It’s also interesting that they call WWII the “War Against Japan”.

    • David

      I think they call it the “Second War Against Japan” which is how I have seen it translated. But since I don’t read Chinese somebody else will have to give us the official wording.

    • Insomnicide

      抗日戰爭
      The war of resistance against the Japanese.
      It’s part of WW2. But WW2 officially started in 1939 with Germany’s invasion of Poland. While the Second Sino-Japanese war started in 1937.

      • vincent_t

        That is the thing that I always argue. Why WW2 considered started when German invaded Poland, instead of the Japanese invasion of China?

        • Alex Dương

          Eurocentrism.

        • Insomnicide

          Partly Eurocentrism, but also because when Japan invaded China no one else was directly involved. Thus it’s not a ‘world war’.

          • vincent_t

            Right, no1 gave a fuck about the Korean and Chinese back then. IMO The scale of the war could have been much smaller if the other nations stepped in earlier.

  • Amused

    Really? So the North didn’t threaten secession during the war of 1812, they didn’t call it “Little Jemmy’s War”(after the Virginian Prez at the time James Madison), and the U.S. weren’t fighting a primarily naval war against the greatest blue water fleet in the world whilst possessing a primarily brown water fleet, and we weren’t lucky the Brits had bigger fish to fry at the time?
    And during the Civil War Virginia wasn’t the main front of the war what with Richmond and D.C. being within spitting distance of each other, and the key element in the North winning wasn’t the Anaconda Plan, which helped the North keep things under control until they could finally find a decent general or two rather than the sorry gang of incompetents they had at the beginning of the war?
    Gosh, you’re so smart mister, you’ve managed to prove generations of historians wrong and rewrite history based on your own preconceived notions…
    About those movies…. Skadoosh…

    • SongYii

      Haha… funny thread.

      The Civil War dragged on despite the North continually winning all but one front… yeah, right. Thanks for that insight, rich.

      Seeing as how the Japs were eventually driven out of China, it would seem China won that war. So the argument that the U.S. doesnt harp on getting its leader’s official quarters burned to the ground because they won that war doesn’t quite fit.

      The reasons I think China harps on Japan so much:

      1. They lost a shitload of face, and they want to take face away from Japan.
      2. It is an excellent, excellent, highly effectual propaganda tool to help keep Zhongnanhai in power.

  • SongYii

    Nope, US bombed Japan entirely in their own interest. But sure didn’t hurt the rest of the world, did it?

    Moreover, I have already commented on that idea in a response in this thread, just a few minutes ago.

    But thank the lord baby jesus we have the UK to always get history right and jeer at those who don’t. God Save the Queen.

  • Amused

    Vietnam is interesting. Yeah, there’s still two main groups of old vets that I’ve met that were in it. The ones broken by what they saw and did, and the ones who loved it and wished it would never end. Different personalty types I guess. Other than that all it left us was the best music of the last century and a legacy of hippie-dom. But no one seems to care about the war anymore than the other pieces of history we over romanticize in cinema.

  • Wololoo

    Actually the communist party would not have won, without the Japanese invasion, because the Kuomindang fighted them while the communist hide somewhere in the mountains.

    After the surrender of Japan the weakened KMT-army had no chance against the CCP and lost the civil war.

    • David

      True but not the sort of thing the CCP will really advertise. : ) Also, I am not sure they would NEVER have won, definitely would not have won by 1949.

    • ClausRasmussen

      It is difficult to speculate about what would have happened. Chiang Kai-Shek displayed incredible incompetence on so many occasions, I am not sure about a KMT victory without the Japanese invasion.

      Someone on ChinaSMACK once described KMT under Chiang Kai-Shek as “fascism in all but efficiency”. That’s how I see it too.

      • Dr Sun

        he (the KMT) seemed to do alright in rebuilding Taiwan post WWII though ???

        Not that I support him (he was a gangster)

        Mao ON THE OTHER HAND raised a farmer army of millions on the promise of land ownership and wealth, won the war against the KMT, gave the farmers the land.Then took it away again and starved 50 million of them to death in the great leap into hell. The guy was a monster as is the CPC today.
        The CPC of today is a blend of Mao, Ping and Shek a truly horrible cup of tea.

        • ClausRasmussen

          I was talking about who would win the civil war. You’re talking about who made the best society after the war. Apples and oranges…

          • Dr Sun

            as said a he won the civil war with a peasant army, the KMT was severely weakened as it had done almost all the fighting against the Japanese, and was exhausted, broke and stretched out. The CPC/PLA in contrast had done little but feed their faces, recruit, and wait for the right time.
            Have you ever read “the Art of war?”

            The Japanese were unknowingly Maos greatest ally

            “Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
            1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
            2 He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
            3 He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
            4 He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
            5 He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.”

            “All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
            SunTzu

            “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”

            Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan on sending UK & u.s special forces to Afghanistan to train the mujahideen /Taliban/Al Qaeda (1979)

            “Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.”
            Machiavelli (1532)

        • Insomnicide

          While he did transform Taiwan, it was partially due to the fact that Taiwan was unscathed by war and American financial aid were flooding in.

          Could Chiang rebuild China the same way? Possibly, but given the scale of operations and the incompetence displayed by his cabinet I’d say he would have taken as long as 30 years just to get to where Deng Xiaoping tread.

          • Dr Sun

            Taiwan was not unscathed it had been occupied and many of women forced to be “comfort women” if you were one of them I doubt you would say you were unscathed.

            Could the KMT have rebuilt China, with the shek (the Kmt) in charge it might have “opened its doors ” to capitalism and their form mass capitalist/free market 1% ivy league/ Oxbridge /free Mason corruption, long before Deng Xiaoping came into power, and opened the door to the mass CPC free market (with Chinese characterists) corruption, a good thing, possibly not, but to those 50 million dead/killed by the CPC most definitely YES

      • Insomnicide

        KMT victory would have been easy, but not under Chiang’s cabinet.

  • David

    Rewritten history? Apparently you are not at all familiar with the thousands of articles and books written by American historians giving exacting details about WW II, not re-written history. It sounds like you are simply projecting what you THINK Americans know about the war. I am sure most of the people in the U.K. are familiar with the history of the war and I would bet most are not of the same opinion as you.

  • David

    Are you under the impression that most people in the United States today even think about the Vietnam war? Of course veterans who fought there do (when you are in a war your think about it for the rest of your life) and history teachers do (we have no choice) but the vast majority of people, even those who were adults alive during the war years (which is getting fewer every year), stopped thinking about the Vietnam war in the late 70’s. With the occasional Vietnam war era movie being the exception. But even then there are no ghosts hanging around unless you lost friends there. I came back from vacation there two weeks ago.and they love Americans (still not too happy with the French).

    • Alex Dương

      (still not too happy with the French).

      Why do you think that is? Do they still harbor resentment against a feeling that the French should’ve had the grace / sense to walk away after World War 2?

      • David

        Excellent question. Only staying there a few weeks did not gift me with th einsite to answer this properly. But since I am still mad the French didn’t leave after WW II (because it lead to the situation where I feel we had no choice but to go defend and then engage there), they might still be.

  • wookai

    China reacts! Forward the newly trained chinese armed forces:

  • Alex Dương

    I think the one thing post-Meiji Imperial Japan didn’t learn from the West was divide and conquer. Had they done that, I think they would’ve been able to easily conquer China.

    • Confucius

      China’s various dynasties were good at that too. It’s not a Western (or sometime asserted US) invention. Japan could have supported either rebellion in the northeast or the south, they could also have been less greedy in trying to take over all of Asia instead of holding onto Manchuria. I suspect in a hundred years’ time, the discussion would be, Japan could have worked with China rather than holding onto the money coming from the US. War is unfortunately in the interests of many in power these days and not enough young people in the UK or US remember the horrors of it.

    • Insomnicide

      They already split up China, they divided the mainland and Taiwan, they separated Manchu and Han with Manchuko, they established the Wang Jingwei puppet government, they allowed the CCP to grow strong enough to become a real threat to the KMT.

      They tried to divide and conquer, however they ultimately failed because for one Chinese nationhood has been around longer than Japan as a civilization, and secondly massacring civilians only further strengthened unity of people in resisting Japanese invaders. Japan lacks the understanding of mindset. I believe that’s why they lost.

      • Alex Dương

        The Manchus and the Mongols successfully “used Chinese to fight Chinese” when they conquered China. The Japanese utterly failed at this, but there’s no reason that could not have been done. There was a civil war going on; the conditions were ripe for divide and conquer.

        • Insomnicide

          Well the Japanese were out of touch, they didn’t understand the Chinese people for one. Mongols and Manchus understood the contemporary Chinese culture of their time very well. Japan tried to conquer China under the mentality of Yamato racial superiority, and Japanese leaders tried to promote Japanese culture over Chinese culture. Something that has been proven to not work in China.

          And the Xinhai revolution had just overthrown foreign dictators, no one would be glad to so quickly accept another one.

          Even if they did conquer China militarily, within a few generations they’d either have to be Sinicized both culturally and lineage-wise or they’d be booted out with interest on their loan.

  • J.gunn
  • Wodowsan

    You seem to be forgetting all the island battles the U.S. forces fought to island hop closer and closer to the Japanese main islands, in order to be close enough to bomb Japan proper. All after losing the bulk of their Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor four years earlier. Things were very iffy for the Americans until the Battle Midway. A battle where outnumbered they defeated the same Imperial Japanese fleet that had successfully bombed Pearl.

    As for the European Campaign. The British and the Russians did the bulk of the fighting against Nazi Germany. It was the British that held Nazi Germany at bay in the West and the Soviets that turned the tide of the war in the East at Stalingrad.

    The Americans did their part with the North African Campaign, Sicily, Italy and of course operation Overload (Invasion of Normandy.) But they could not have done any of those things without the Brits, Free French, Free Pols, and Canadians.

    The Pacific campaign thought was an American lead progression, with help from the Brits out of India, and the Australians. and New Zealanders. China at best, with material and training support from the American and the British, held back additional gains of the Japanese.

    “The U.S. Army’s main role in China was to keep China in the war through the provision of advice and materiel assistance. As long as China stayed in the war, hundreds of thousands of imperial Japanese Army soldiers could be tied down on the Asian mainland. Success was thus measured differently than in most theaters. How well both General Stilwell and General Wedemeyer persuaded the theater commander-in-chief, Generalissimo Chiang, to support U.S. strategic goals, and how effectively U.S. training and materiel support could build selected Chinese Army divisions into modern tactical units, capable of standing up to Japanese adversaries, were secondary objectives. What mattered most was simply keeping China in the war against Japan.”

  • Disney English

    Being a Japanese soldier in Nanjing would have been epic fun.

    • wookai

      How’s that? Or are you simply having such a tough time at disney english as a tefl slave? Do they treat you that badly that you have visualisations of being a japanese soldier and meting out some tough love to your manager?

      • Disney English

        I’m not an English teacher.

        • wookai

          Who said you were?

          • wookai

            Thank you MODs for deleting that nasty comment left by a particularly deranged specimen. Goodness! A little cultural needling fine. But that comment was sick.

          • Disney English

            You asked if I’m a TEFL slave at Disney English. I’m informing you that I’m not.

          • wookai

            So…..what are you?

            Sorry but just cant condone a sadistic comment like yours. What was it again? That was some sick shit man, you should apologise and do it quickly.

          • Disney English

            There’s no point in repeating it because it will just get deleted again by the apparently hyper-senstive moderators on here. You are free to continue flapping your big, impresive conscience all over the place though.

          • Alex Dương

            You made that comment twice, and it was deleted twice. It contributed nothing to the discussion and was purely flamebait.

          • SongYii

            The moderators here are sensitive, but they are also not quick to delete. Yours musta been a doozy.

          • Kai

            It was, and when it’s by someone who has a history of making trollish comments, it shouldn’t be given any more leeway.

          • Amused

            That’s right, you tell him! Everyone knows you’re a professional pool hustler from Disneyland.

          • wookai

            BWWAHAHAHAHAHA!

  • Amused

    Come on man, now who’s skewing the facts to support their own view? That’s waaaay too big of a post for me to get into a fencing match over each point, but I will concede you know most of your stuff well enough to hold up your side of the argument. So let me just hit a few points lightly. 1, you really should look up that bit in the war of 1812 where Northern states were looking at breaking away(economic reasons=go figure), its fascinating stuff and it really puts alot of things in perspective(look up “Hartford Convention”). 2, the main damage of the War of 1812 was economic; basically our shipping got turned into swiss cheese, and yeah, we sought the peace table first. 3, while I’m no Southern apologist, if you’re going to sit there and try to tell me the you think McClellan, Burnside, Hooker and Co. didn’t suck at their vocations….. well that’s on you man, but it’s sad= they wasted alot of American lives. Plus it takes alot away from Grant and Sherman. 4, implying the South never won a major battle is pure revisionism and wishful thinking… I’m not going to rub them in your face, you KNOW the ones I mean. They just never had the men to back up the wins. We’re damn lucky it worked out that way. And lastly…. Lesson my ass, but man it’s good to converse with a fellow history buff. Thanks for the intellectual exercise :)

  • sasman

    Chinese gallantry is a joke, they never cared about civilian deaths 150,000[4] to 330,000 DIED IN THE SIEGE OF CHANGCHUN and it wasn’t even the Japanese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Changchun

  • Guest

    Not to distract from the WW2 discussions, but on a different note – did the commentator here actually use the term “Mary Sues,” or was that the translator’s choice? Since that term developed in fanfiction, it’d be interesting to see netizens using it to comment on a news article.

    • Amused

      I’m going with mistranslation. I’m guessing he really said “have you eaten too many Mary Janes”(a delectable peanutbuttery treat) not “have you read too much Mary Sues”. I myself often think of vacationing on uninhabited rocks in the middle of the ocean when I am eating said candy, so I’m sure that’s it.

    • Insomnicide

      The original comment says 玛丽苏, Chinese transliteration of the word Mary Sue.

  • SongYii

    Yawn.

  • Wodowsan

    Bamboo ceiling?Can you imagine a none Han-ren as a provincial governor in China or a mayor of a city? None Chinese are not even allowed to own a majority share in companies in America. None Chinese have to register with the local police where you live. You do not have to do that in America and Chinese can freely open a company here without American partners, and buy land legally. In America we have had Asian American Governors, Senators, Corporate leaders, Nobel Prize winners, Cabinet position holders, etc. You really do not have any prospective or idea what you are saying, I think you just anti-American.
    If you read my stuff a little more carefully I lived in Taiwan for nine years. They are also ethnic Chinese yet I never had any of the racism I experienced in China accept for the one incident. I was also never cheated out of salary as I was on the mainland, twice. It is cultural problem not racial and I solely blame the government’s propaganda for fanning racism and nationalism among its people.

  • Wodowsan

    Starting companies any where takes capital. That is investment. They of course hoped to make profits in their investment by them doing so they did help the Chinese economy greatly. That is Capitalism.

    • Fumanchu

      it also lead to the opium wars, which did not help china at all

  • Cdog

    69 years ago…..today who is killing the CHINESE.

  • Alex Dương

    This was not my experience. I’m not mixed, and throughout K-12, I never had a meaningful number of international students from China in my classes. So admittedly our backgrounds are not the same.

    Nonetheless, I met many Chinese international students in my undergrad days. None refused to speak Mandarin with me, though most preferred speaking English with me for practice.

  • Wodowsan

    I agree with you that the U.S. is changing and is also becoming more so a who you know more so than rule of law. The whole “Too big to Fail” is a perfect example of that.

    Opportunity in America is clearly on the decline. This use to be a nation where if you wanted to start your own business one only needed to buy a pair scissors, a comb, and a chair. If you did a good job at a reasonable price you had return customers and word of mouth. Now in America they just recently sent in a SWAT team to arrest a barber for not being certified. In honest comparison the ties between the government and business in China is still much worse.

    Today’s America is smothering out opportunity and competition due to protectionism of government unions, trade unions, professional guilds, and large corporations spending billions in lobbyist and campaign donations. They often get the government to pass laws in the name of “protecting” the public, but in all reality they are laws that merely create regional and industry monopolies so the haves have no upstarts competing against them with better and cheaper products or services.

    • Taiwosam

      . Now in America they just recently sent in a SWAT team to arrest a barber for not being certified.

      WTF did that happen, madness!!!

      • Wodowsan

        It gets worse. In Wisconsin they are now trying to pass a law that Florist need to be certified.

        • Zappa Frank

          come on that’s nothing compared to Europe…

      • Dr Sun

        The land of the free oO

        • Wodowsan

          America use to be the land of the Free and the Brave.
          We are now the land of the certified and the insured.

          • Dr Sun

            agreed the land of the most taxed and in debt wage slaves in the world, used to be a great country , its decline began with Reagan and has accelerated ever since to the point now that’s its a shadow of its former self. Little more than a corporate run oligarchy now.

          • Wodowsan

            Decline began with Johnson and his Great Society. Reagan was period in slowing down the decline. Bush Senior accelerated the decline again.

  • Wodowsan

    Your personal attacks sound much more like a teenager. If you disagree with my points, then point out where I am wrong.

  • Wodowsan

    Perhaps I should be sent to a re-education labor camp?

  • QuietAmerican

    I really wish most Americans on here would keep their opinions to themselves. Always the first to be looking for a pat on the back for something decades ago that had nothing to do with you.

  • Dryhten

    It’s not like I’m actually claiming to be “real chinese” or anything like that. I totally understand that I’m different, that I grew up in a unique community that was completely different from the average asian kid’s. Believe you me, I am the first to offer up a disclaimer about chinese-ness, joke about how chinese people don’t actually think I’m chinese, all of that stuff. So it’s not like I’m actually trying to be a true chinese person, I know that I’m not. It just so happens that a few times in my life mainland chinese people immediately discounted any experience I’ve had growing up with a chinese family just because I’m mixed. I mean I know my life isn’t 100% authentic chinese, but I’m not “just a white person”, as they claim.

    • Kai

      Barring any inadvertent miscommunications or misunderstandings with those mainlanders, fuck being “real Chinese” or “a true Chinese person” or “authentic Chinese”, at least as judged by others. Don’t let them get to you. The petty man sees others by how they are different, while the wise man sees others by how they are similar.

    • Dr Sun

      “I grew up in a unique community that was completely different from the average asian kid”

      how, where in what way different ?

      • Dryhten

        By that I just meant that I also had a side of my family that was white and had lived in the middle of the US for generations, as opposed to my immigrant asian family. When my sister went to go live in China for a year, they told that she “should always remember that she was an American”, as if she was magically going to turn into a commie while she was there. Most asian kids don’t have that kind of influence growing up.

    • bujiebuke

      Don’t let yourself be define by these narrow descriptors like: asian, white, mixed, amurican. People have a tendency to pigeon-hole strangers. It’s unfair but you don’t have to accept it. You don’t need to prove anything to these people and if they can’t accept for who you are, then move on and find better friends.

  • Kai

    Yes, they are riots involving mob-mentality, but if you’re targeting a specific nationality over some grievance you’ve generalized onto that nationality, it is “racist” in the broader modern concept of racism. They aren’t mutually exclusive, which is why there is such a phenomenon as “race riots”. The role of the racism may be different from the initial shooting in, for example, Ferguson, but as long as you have people being victimized based on perceptions of their racial/ethnic/national identity, there’s an element of racism involved.

  • Dr Sun

    because sadly the U.S is now one of the most racist and wealth divided counties in the world

    • Dax

      Which is clearly why they elected a black president.

  • Wodowsan

    I think you prove the points I have been trying to make nicely. I lot anti-American hate in there.

  • Wodowsan

    Yes, I can very easily imagine some day an American born Chinese being the President of the United States. (constitution requires you being born in America to be president) So you are right that a Mainland Chinese could not become the President of the United States. They could become a governor of a State, which has already happened. They can be become an ambassador of the U.S. which has already happened. They can become secretary of Labor, which has already happened, etc.
    I think your rants once again prove my point. Too many Chinese seem to always love to paint themselves as the “humiliated” party. Yet are clearly oblivious of their own racism and hyper-nationalism.

  • Wodowsan

    I have said more than once that America has had a history of racism and still does. What I have been saying which you clearly do not understand is there is an effort in American educationally and culturally to combat racism. There has been great progress but we still need to make progress.
    I stated before my son-in-law is Black/Hispanic, My grandchildren are half black, a quarter Chinese, and a quarter White. I would love them to live a world that no one insults them on the street or tells their children they are not good enough to marry because of the color of skin.
    You sound like that type of person that I am sure would have no problem with your children marrying outside your race. (That is sarcasm)
    I do not see that effort in Taiwan, I said I thought it was because it is not really a issue there since it is mostly a homogenous society.
    Mainland China is also a homogenous society, but there is a consorted effort by the Chinese government in the education system and in the media to promote negative attitudes towards America and especially Japan.
    Your emotional rants, and person attacks illustrated what I am saying perfectly.
    I can admit there are racial problems in America. Can you admit that China has racial problems too towards none Chinese? If not again you proving my point. – by the way, just because I think there are racial problem in America and admit it, does not me I support it. It is wrong and needs to change for the better for my grandchildren.
    And how can people who insulted me hate me for my “hating Chinese” if they did not know me or talk to me. I was not pointing at Chinese and calling them “Chinese Monsters” or “Chinese Dogs” or “Chinese Devils” or say “They do not look human” but they had no problem saying that to me, just walking on the street or shopping in a store. Of course you would have to switch the word Chinese with “foreigner” or “American” what they called me two or three times a day for over three and half years.
    You are angry at me because I pointed out the fact that this was my experience in China? If this happened to you in American I would apologize to you that you had such experience. I feel ashamed of my countrymen. It is why I have asked my wife of her being here for over a year and half has anyone ever insulted her for being Chinese. She said “no.” I was happy to hear that she has not yet experienced what I had in China. I hope she never does.
    I would let you know that those people were the idiots to treat you this way. If you were in America and people treated you like this I would defend you, if another American ever did that to you. Yet you instead of defending me for how I was treated you attack me for stating what happened to me. Your reaction proves my point.

  • Kai

    All of your disagreements are already addressed in what I previously linked: racism.

    As such, I don’t agree that I have confused semantics with logic. My logic is consistent with my semantics. You have a narrower definition of “racism” than I do. Your definition isn’t “wrong”, but neither is mine as far as contemporary notions go. I hope you can acknowledge that what I am saying is internally consistent with the definition of “racism” as I have invoked and provided reference for.

    Also, I understand your argument about the generalization that modern Chinese see Japanese people as superior in the current world order. I know you’re referring to such things as economic and social development, norms, living standards, etc. I understand how you use that to refute “racism” if it is defined by notions of superiority and inferiority.

    There are two responses to that off the top of my head, one within your framework and one that challenges your framework:

    1. Chinese people can concede that the Japanese are superior to them now but still believe they are the inherently superior people/culture. This is like a white man conceding that a black man has more money than him but still believing he is inherently superior.

    2. Racism is not necessarily defined by notions of superiority and inferiority though it often is (and when it is, see point #1). I point to the UN definition of racial discrimination. I point to definitions of racism involving there mere belief of racial differences as justification for unequal treatment. Again, I refer back to the link I’ve provided.

    So you and I are operating with different definitions. If you can acknwoledge that my definitions are acceptable, then you’d acknowledge that my disagreement and argument is valid, just as I acknowledge that your arguments make sense with your narrower definition. You can then either try to convince me that your definition is more correct, but I think it would make more sense to just acknwoledge each others’ points as valid within their context.

    Oh, and Wadowsan is wrong about America. America is not a race.

    I may be forgetting but I don’t recall him saying America was a race?

    You can’t be racist against Americans.

    You can if you accept the “broader modern concept of racism.”

    As sociologists long ago realized, the problem with the narrow definition of racism only referring to discrimination by “race” is that there is no real scientific consensus on what is a “race”. There are too many compelling arguments for “race” being a social construct. That’s part of why “racism” has over time broadened to include ethnicity and nationality. As such, “American” is a nationality, and thus one can indeed be “racist” against Americans.

    I like your point about racial discrimination being “the devil it is” because one can’t do anything to change it. I’ve made similar points before in other conversations. However, one’s nationality is not typically considered to be “easy” to change, nevermind that racism also includes discrimination against descent or origin. Even if an American changes citizenship and thus nationality, he could still be “American” by descent or origin, and have no choice in that.

    One more time, please take into consideration how my position is consistent with my semantics, and my semantics are not esoteric. If you’ve read my exchanges with Wodowsan, you should be able to tell that I disagree with him on many things and have pointed out the ignorance in many of his assertions. I think a lot of what he has said is indefensible and irksome. That said, the disagreement between you and I boils down to what definition of racism we want to invoke. Again, I hope you can see my perspective as I hope I have demonstrated that I see yours.

    • Guest

      Your logic is impeccable. Your definition is wrong (to my mind). Racism is trivialised as words do when they join common usage and become everyday terms. We now do war on a daily basis and battle against first world problems. We murder our roasts and kill our joys. Racism was and still is a significant discrimination against another because of their ascribed race (the argument about one’s genetic makeup and other pseudo-scientific attempts at defining race are the sociologist’s equivalent of how long is a piece of string) because of a simple belief in their inherent inferiority (and associated undeservedness, ie, the so-called ‘victim blaming’ which we now know is wrong). I would disabuse you of your definition of the term ‘racism, but maybe I should find another term to use for the beliefs which led to the genocide of Jews, the wanton massacres and crimes against humanity committed by the WW2 Japanese, the righteous declarations of terra nullius on various inhabited lands, the belief in the inherent right to trade and enslave black Africans …. and still exists today in the TV shows where children are coached to call for the destruction of the Chinese race to avoid paying back debt or the justification of killing unarmed black children because they are threatening, or the racial profiling and jailing of Arabs because they may all be fundamentalist muslim terrorists … I’m sorry but I don’t believe it is right to equate this type of discrimination with being subject to a stereotype while having the privilege of belonging to the group which dictated the rules for the world to follow, control the organisations which execute these rules, and own a disproportionate percentage of the world’s wealth compared to their number. I agree that we will have to disagree on this.

      • Kai

        I’m sympathetic to your argument that words are trivialized. It still remains that there is compelling academia behind the modern definition and usage of racism. Again, your definition isn’t wrong, it’s just narrower.

        Semantically, it could also be the difference between “racism” and “racial discrimination”. Are these two terms synonymous or is there a distinction? Should “racism” refer to a more specific, narrower phenomenon than simple “discrimination” based on race, ethnicity, nationality, etc.?

        While I point to “racism” and “racial discrimination” being used interchangably in modern times and thus justify my disagreement with you, I’m willing to entertain arguments that the two terms should be differentiated. I understand you feel racism has to involve a power-dynamic. I just think that is subject to too many pitfalls of generalizations. Would Mexican gangs targeting gringos for beatings not be guilty of “racist” hate crimes simply because Mexico or Mexican society is arguably inferior to American (or “white society”) in terms of generalized societal “power”? I’m not sure this is tenable.

        That said, as long as you understand my point, I’m cool.

  • Wodowsan

    With your logic in racism it is not racist when the Han minorities that are of higher economic position are singled out and attacked in countries like Vietnam and Indonesia.

    That is not racist, because the Chinese have more money and education in those nations?

  • Wodowsan

    i am “white trash” because i taught university in China? and say that is not racism? Keep talking because you really are helping make my point more and more. And your stubbornness not to admit there is a problem i fear means things will not improve.

    I am the racist and the bigot, because I stated two or three people in China out of hundreds I would cross per day would make insulting comments to me. People who did not know me, did not speak to me?

    I also know from Blacks that have lived in China their experiences were much worse than mine, especially if they were with a Chinese girl.

    I had Chinese men on more than one occasion make insulting comments to my Chinese girlfriend about her having sex with me. But I guess my letting you know that happened makes me the “Idiot”, “The Bigot” and the “Racist” I guess I should have approached them apologized to them for whom my parents were? For the color of my skin? For the shape of my eyes?

    My pointing this out makes me the bad guy? Why because Chinese are perfect? No one is allowed to point out problems in Chinese society? Only Chinese can be victimized and humiliated by others? They never victimize or try to humiliated others?

  • Wodowsan

    You have a good point. Although it was known as the land of free and brave, and it clearly is not now. If it ever was, is a good question.

  • Wodowsan

    When America was first formed when most people in the world were either slaves, indentured servants, or peasant that farmed and died on the land that they could never own themselves. (I am aware that is was different in Britain that they had freeman that owned their own trades and land.)

    Where most of the world you were what your father was, no more. It was an land of much more opportunity for the individual. Was it perfect? No. But in comparison to Europe of the time where you had to be the religion of your king, or in India where you had set cast systems, or in Asia where the nation was owned and controlled by one Heavenly son, America was much freer.

    It was the reason my European ancestors chose to emigrate to America for a much better life and more opportunity they could receive in their home countries from the four corners of Europe. It is a reason so many still wish to migrate to America even today.

  • Wodowsan

    It would be sexist if the mugger called the woman a “Bitch”, “Whore,” and/or “slut” as he assaulted her and/or sexually assaulted her too. If he just went to her and said “your money or life.” because she was seen as an easy target, your are correct.

  • Wodowsan

    Actually you will find that the Han Chinese are very often in powerful positions in those nations. There for the resentment, which is racist and wrong.

  • John Huang

    dont forget that during the Great Leap Forward, more than 50million chinese died from famine under Mao’s leadership.

  • joshben

    Lol! You’re full of it.

    • Taddious

      Dude… who are you talking to? This website died 2 years ago..

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