Chinese Middle School Girls Raped in Shandong Controversy

July 3, Dongping county Yinshan town Yinyue hotel. Last year on December 23, Qing Qing [pseudonym] claims this is where she was raped by three men.

July 3, Dongping county Yinshan town Yinyue hotel. Last year on December 23, Qing Qing [pseudonym] claims this is where she was raped by three men.

The following articles (with excerpts) were among the most discussed articles on Chinese web portal NetEase over the past week…

From NetEase:

Multiple Girls Suffer Sexual Assault by Local Ruffians in Shandong, Police: The City Has Already Indicated That It is Difficult to Prosecute

Summary: The media has received reports claiming that a second-year middle school student in Shandong province Dongping county Banjiudian town was forced to have sexual relations with three drug-using young men and that youth in the aforementioned local community preying on junior high school girls is already an open secret, that apart from the aforementioned second year junior high schoolgirl, there are also three other girls who claim to have been forced by these young men into having sex with, with police previously claiming that town has already indicated to the bureau that it is too difficult to investigate and obtain evidence for this kind of case.

[…]

July 3, Banjiudian Town Middle School where the incident occurred. Nearby villagers claim there are often private cars stopped/parked in front of the school luring schoolgirls.

July 3, Banjiudian Town Middle School where the incident occurred. Nearby villagers claim there are often private cars stopped/parked in front of the school luring schoolgirls.

Comments from NetEase:

网易山东省枣庄市手机网友 ip:182.39.*.*

The media can expose something, the people may be arrested, but there is often no sound in the end about how they are sentenced. I hope the reporting can follow this to the very end, and give justice to the victim.

紫衣九天使 [网易辽宁省大连市网友]:

Now that this has made it to the headlines [or front page] of NetEase, which gets several hundred million visitors as traffic, and under the scrutiny of everyone, shouldn’t the local criminal police think that they should do a certain something? Are they [the police] going to die [refuse to do their job] for a ruffian? Or are they going to live [do their job] for the entire country?

阿狗46 [网易天津市网友]:

“They’ve had the city contact the town, and the town contact the department, so there’s nothing we can do about it either.” [This is a detail in the full article about how various levels of government have delegated the matter to lower levels.]
The have the province dispatch people to ferret out and severely punish the people at the city, town, and department level protecting them!!

网易日本手机网友(126.210.*.*):

It’s obvious that there is something wrong with the girl too! Why would the girl chat with the nearby people [referring to an instant messaging feature that allows you to chat with a random nearby user]? Why did the girl go out people to play just because they drive nice cars? Who is to be blamed for being tricked into unlawful intercourse? First look to yourself for reasons!

网易陕西省西安市手机网友 ip:123.138.*.* (responding to above)

Dumbass! When they are under 14 years old, no matter whether or not they are willing, it is all considered rape!

网易广东省广州市网友 ip:121.33.*.*

Chemical castration is required in this.

网易云南省昆明市手机网友(119.62.*.*):

The student [girl] had no self-respect [or wasn’t careful/prudent].

wuguoxuo [网易湖南省株洲市网友]: (responding to above)

Please read carefully: They are all young girls under 14 years old! I hope your younger sister or daughter will always be safe, because if they are sexually assaulted, it will all be blamed on “having no self-respect” [or not being careful/prudent].

专打装逼精 [网易江苏省淮安市淮阴区网友]:

Public commentators have said that cracking down on rapists is violating human rights. Only in a dark and shadowy society can there not be murderers, rapists, and black society [organized crime, criminal gangs]. In a bright and illuminated society, these are elements that necessarily exist. Whoever dares to severely crack down on murderers, rapists, black society, black lawyers, and ignorant and incompetent people, well that is called persecution and remaining evil elements.

跟帖帝 [懂球帝]:

What should I say? Maybe saying nothing is best: Frightened into silence, only able to express with one’s eyes.

1404711739951 [网易广东省湛江市网友]:

These kind of people should’ve been caught long ago. Otherwise, these little girls will grow up and be like [the prostitutes in] Dongguan. [The government] needs to take care of our women. Severely punish them.

From NetEase:

Shandong Police Publish Sexually Assaulted Girls Investigation Report: What The Four [Accused] Did Does Not Constitute Crime of Rape

CNR.cn Jinan July 7 report — This journalist learned from the Shandong Dongping Propaganda Department that police have reported on their investigation of the incident involving girls being sexually assaulted. The report concludes (1) The current evidence show that there was no force involved when Huang Defeng, Huang Dewu, Lu Daogang, and Zheng Longcai had sexual relations with Jiao XX, that Jiao X at the time was already 14 years old, and thus what Huang and the other three accused did does not constitute the crime of rape. (2) Lu X had the intent and behavior to rape (unsuccessful) Xie X, and has is suspected of the crime of rape.

[…]

Comments From NetEase:

5支持美国和日本剿灭土匪 [美国球迷]:

All the sons of government leaders/officials, so of course it wouldn’t constitute the crime of rape!

盛满金 [阿根廷球迷]:

Even thugs/hooligans are able to drive BMWs and other good cars, talk about having good future prospects!

网易北京市网友 ip:223.223.*.*

This case is being judged incorrectly. Clearly this is a young girl who has taken the wrong step in life [a bad girl] who has seduced good youths [the young men], who has made a false accusation after failing to exact wealth from them. The judgement is as follows: Several youths did a good deed in reporting a wayward young girl, and shall be rewarded with a BMW each, while the wayward girl criminal shall be fined and required to compensate two BMWs for the crime of entrapment and extortion/blackmail. This judgement shall go into effect immediately, to be immediately executed.

越名教任自然 [网易贵州省贵阳市南明区网友]:

The door to the government yamen [feudal government office] opens to the south, those with just cause but not money should think twice about entering.

网易重庆市网友 [我报道亩产万斤不算造谣]:

Didn’t someone at the city level delegate [that this case should be investigated], so how come there is no report?

被和鞋 [阿根廷球迷]: (responding to above)

Other than the children of government officials, who else would dare do this kind of thing…?

網易跟帖总局局长 [德国球迷]:

Clearly it is this girl who raped the four guys, am I right?

From NetEase:

Multiple Shandong Girls Claim to Have Been Sexually Assaulted, Police: The Girls Actively Participated and Did Not Resist

Shandong police recently published their investigation report concerning the “girls suffer Sexual assaulted by local ruffians” controversy, stating that they could not determine that the actions of three involved constituted rape. The police claim that the girl did not resist during the sexual relations and instead actively participated. In response, the victim Jiao X firmly denied this, saying she wanted to flee at the time and had scratched the arm of the other party with all her strength. A family member of Jiao X also accused the police of altering testimony, that the “ripped off my clothes” said by the child had been changed to “the child took off her clothes, and helped Huang X take off his clothes”.

[…]

Comments from NetEase:

网易埃塞俄比亚手机网友 ip:213.55.*.*

Justice may be late, but it will never be absent [fail to come].

网易北京市手机网友(123.121.*.*):

Four adult males who do drugs against a 14-year-old girl is in fact a kind of coercion itself, where she wouldn’t dare resist [fight back], and couldn’t resist [fight back].

网易山东省潍坊市高密市手机网友 ip:123.133.*.* (responding to above)

This is true.

网易河北省石家庄市手机网友 ip:221.194.*.*

Ah, the news, when there are relations with someone under 18 years old, even in the free United States it is severely punished, but in our country it isn’t considered rape?

e2317b809e017c264dae8c61 [网易美国手机网友]: (responding to above)

Yeah, human flesh search those fabricating in this case, to all be severely punished, to satisfy the people’s [public’s] anger.

fjc1957 [网易山东省青岛市网友]:

Should be thoroughly investigated, the truth restored, and circulated throughout all of society.

网易广西贵港市手机网友 ip:121.31.*.*

A disgrace! Should be investigated strictly!

网易河北省石家庄市手机网友 ip:218.11.*.*

This is just like rape not being considered rape because a condom was worn [refers to an infamous case involving this exact reasoning]. These beasts not only raped a young girl, they are also raping society.

把权力关进了笼子 [阿根廷球迷]:

Strongly demand that this case be investigated by the province [provincial level authorities, instead of locals]. The shamelessness is already to an infuriating degree!

懵懂cool [网易山东省淄博市网友]:

These thugs should be severely punished in accordance with the law. At the same time, school safety management should be strengthened, to protect minors, and strengthen students’ safety awareness.

From NetEase:

Mother of Girl Who Suffered Rape by Local Ruffians in Shandong Drank Agricultural Chemical to Commit Suicide, Currently Undergoing Rescue Attempts

The Beijing Times report — This morning around 11am, the mother of the Shandong Dongping town girl Xinin [pseudonym, referring to “Jiao X” above] suspected of having been raped drank agricultural chemicals [possible pesticide] to commit suicide, and is currently being taken to Banjiudian Hospital for emergency medical attention. Xinxin’s uncle says Xinxin’s mother has been under extreme stress recently as local government departments have been investigating this matter.

[…]

Comments from NetEase:

练习曲 [网易山东省青岛市手机网友]:

Justice may be late, but it will never be absent [fail to come].

五道口黄易大厦三楼楼长 [懂球菜鸟]:

There will ultimately be retribution for inverting good and evil, we can only fight over how soon or late it comes.

大鸟五阿哥 [网易湖北省手机网友]:

Society needs fairness ad justice.

omiga228 [懂球菜鸟]:

[The culprits] are too savage, and should be dealt with!

网易河南省郑州市手机网友 ip:223.104.*.*

What people do, god watches. Whoever does evil shall be held accountable!

网易湖北省武汉市网友 ip:111.173.*.*:

Why commit suicide? If you want to kill, you should at least go kill those animals!

Donnytio [网易福建省厦门市手机网友]:

Speechless. I recommend that the Disciplinary Committee [of the Chinese Communist Party, of the central government] get involved, as houseflies should also be killed!

aixuegaoshu [网易辽宁省本溪市网友]:

These people protecting these scum must be severely punished.

网易北京市手机网友 ip:114.247.*.*

I hope you guys will stay strong and continue living on.

大哥的人 [网易山东省聊城市手机网友]:

Those responsible must be plucked out [like weeds] along with their roots [those who facilitate them].

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  • Cv

    This is just sick, they can’t get women their own age. So take/ force sex from middle school students. Plus someone is covering up for their ass.

  • NightKnight

    This is why so many peasants want to move into the big cities desperately in China, there are like several China, first-tier cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen are the first-world China. the provincial capitals and other major cities are the second world China, small cities and counties in the southeast coastal area are the third world China, and the rest is like this one in the news, Dongping county, a small county in the North, this governments attitude and reactions is like the textbook of how terrible the bureaucracy could be in China.

    • hess

      Soo… First tier cities are countries allied to the US, provincial capitals and other major cities are Communist countries and small cities and counties in the southeast coastal area are Neutral countries? Because thats what first, second and third world means.

      Edit: Subsequently, the actual meaning of the terms “First World”, “Second World” and “Third World” changed from being based on political ideology to an economic definition.
      My bad.

      • arise

        i’d imagine he/she was talking about the living conditions. anyone referring to 3rd world is implying the poorest living condition.

        • Wololoo

          I also think he is referring to the power of law. In Beijing it is probably the best within China, whereas in smaller towns the family members of the leading officials can do whatever they want.

  • mr.wiener

    Those in power have stopped listening to the voice of the people. One day they they will be uncomfortably reminded how loud that voice can be.
    Honestly, it was this kind of shenanigans that stirred up resentment against the wealthy landlords all those years ago.…and so on it goes.

  • lacompacida

    The comments from Chinese points right to the root of the problem: Half the society blames the victim rather than the rapists, and the other half just resign to their fate of living in PRC.

    • Kian Mehrabi

      It is extremely difficult to retain any whiff of respect for a society like this. The sickness being cultivated in this community is horrifying, and the attitude of many comments quoted is barbaric and sickening in the fullest sense of the words.

      The response by onlookers to the crime, is by far the worst part of the whole atrocity.

      Any overly sensitive readers please understand, my intention is not to look down on society here. You can go anywhere in the world and find some horrifying and sickening story. However this does not lessen the severity of this particular example of monstrous behavior and the atrocious, despicable response of too many people.

      • Kai

        I wouldn’t say that “many” of the comments translated are “barbaric and sickening”. There are TWO comments out of something like 40 translated that suggest the girl bears some responsibility, and neither of those two comments were among the most popular/upvoted. They were translated because the comments responding to them were popular (so they’re necessary as context for the popular comments).

        The overwhelmingly dominant sentiment is condemnation of the suspects as well as suspicions over what the local police are saying.

        So what we have are two comments (one from a netizen in Japan and another from Kunming) that arguably blame the girl suspecting that she carelessly put herself in a bad situation, and we have comments with thousands if not tens of thousands of upvotes slamming those two those comments.

        I would say the vast majority of comments should allow you to retain at least “a whiff” of respect for the society. It doesn’t seem fair to damn the society on the basis of the overwhelmingly minority opinion.

        • Kian Mehrabi

          This is true. Apologies for honing in on and only seeing the negativity. Thanks for setting me straight.

        • guest

          Well said

    • lonetrey / Dan

      At the time of my comment, this post has 8 upvotes and is still under a 5-upvote post, so it must have more downvotes.

      I’m not sure why, since I feel like this comment expresses exactly how the situation is in a succinct and understandable summary.

      Only thing I would add is that they also expressed outrage, but ultimately it is up to the police and that outrage may not help the situation be resolved.

    • Dr Sun

      same reasoning happens for sex crimes, well all crimes in the West too, blame the victim.

  • DavidisDawei

    Is there vigilante justice in China?
    China needs their version of Charles Bronson to surface and kick some arse.

    • Kai

      Charles Bronson or Chuck Norris? Cast your votes now!

      • Alex Dương

        We’re all forgetting Bruce Lee!

        • Wodowsan

          I didn’t,
          sorry I posted my comment before reading yours. Chuck Norris learned from Bruce Lee.

      • DavidisDawei

        Chuck Norris is not just an actor, he’s the real deal. Trained in Korea while he was in the Air Force and worked with Bruce Lee.
        Most people would need a firearm to defeat him.

        Charles Bronson is from an era of tough men. Look at him in his early years. Very good shape for those times – he was supposedly as tough as nails.

        With Bronson, I was thinking of “Death Wish” when he avenged his wife and daughter and turned vigilante.

        • firebert5

          Every Bronson movie was about him avenging family or friends’ deaths by killing everything that moved.

      • Wodowsan

        Why not Bruce Lee?

    • Markoff

      anti-heroes are not allowed in Chinese movies/TV shows

      • DavidisDawei

        haha – ok
        he can don a cap with a red star before setting out to eliminate degenerates?

    • Dr Sun

      yes, ever heard of “Karma” ?

      • DavidisDawei

        In this lifetime? There are lots of evil people living long and “happy” lives.
        Do you recall the story of “The Lady and the Tiger”?

        • Dr Sun

          do you even know what karma is, I guess not by your reply.

          • DavidisDawei

            Dr Sun,
            You are a snot, aren’t you.
            You didn’t clarify, which is why I did.
            IMO, Most people do not mean the next lifetime when using the term Karma (as some Eastern Religions do). Most people think of it as “What comes around, goes around”.
            I think I answered your question.

          • Dr Sun

            sorry David, twisting karma to a western sense does not make sense, is not right and picking you up on that does not make me a snot, but it does show that your knowledge of Taoism and Doist philosophy is very limited.

          • DavidisDawei

            My knowledge of most religions is “limited”…
            if you want to explain your position further, please go ahead

          • Dr Sun

            whats your email addy, I would love to talk more, but this site is not the right place for that.

          • DavidisDawei
  • Wodowsan

    They must have been foreigners. Chinese men are not perverts and/or sexual deviants.
    My ex-girlfriend’s relatives warned her not to marry me, because if she did I would “bring her back to America and sell her into prostitution.”
    My wife’s mother (from Chongqing and has never met or spoken to a none Chinese person) told my wife that she worries I may “murder her since I am a foreigner.”

    • Yes!

      LOL.

    • Rick in China

      Sounds like a f’d up relationship with the in-laws.. that must be rough. I feel for ya man. I’m lucky on that front. :D

    • Dr Sun

      tough break dude to marry into such a uneducated and bigoted family, care to share more, rural village or what ?

      • Wodowsan

        My wife was a librarian at the Military Medical University. She was the first in her family to earn a university education. Met her at a free English corner I would give for the Chongqing Public Library.
        My ex-girlfriend was a nurse at the number one Chongqing Hospital connected to the Medical University. Also the first in her family with a university education.

        • Dr Sun

          why would you be giving “free English corners” do the best local restaurants feed you for free, do the farmers give you food for free, do the clothes shops dress you for free…etc, just wondering.
          Do her family talk to you now or do they still think your a slaver ?

          • Wodowsan

            I gave them as a marketing tool since I was in the process of promoting my own school and attracting investors. I was also interested to see if their was a demand for my style of teaching. There was, and I did attract the needed investors. it fell through because all the investors I did line up wanted to take the controlling interest. I was not interested in them turning the school into another Chinese cram school and my being just the white monkey in the window. So I turned down the investors.

            It was the ex-girlfriend’s family that thought I would be a slaver. As for my wife’s family, only the mother has been told that we are even married. They (my wife and her mother) still fear telling her father that she married me. As for her thinking I will murder my wife, since we have been married for over a year and half now and I have never even struck her, I think it may not be much longer that her mother will be convinced I have no desire or plans in harming her daughter.

            A note of interest: My ex-wife was from Taiwan. She was a Mandarin. Her father forbid his daughters to marry Taiwanese (he had only 4 daughters.) Even though he always said Taiwan was part of China. Taiwanese boys were still not good enough for his daughters. One of his daughters married a Taiwanese in America when she went to university. It took her two years before she finally told her father she was married. He was a university professor at Ta Da (The Harvard/Yale of Taiwan) He knew many Taiwanese, yet he held this bigotry against them. People he considered politically and ethnically Chinese like him. I could never understand it. Beyond that I found him to be a highly intelligent, extremely honest, and even noble man in the traditions of a true Confucianist scholar. I still use his family name as my official Chinese name which he gave me.

          • Probotector

            Some people do it because they’re idealistic. There’s more to life than money and profit. Frankly, your statement doesn’t make you sound very compassionate, and for a doctor who comes from a country where medical care is freely available, that is worrisome.

          • Wodowsan

            I agree with your statement. If I did not need money I would teach and write for free. I enjoy both. Teaching more so when you see the light bulbs go off above their heads, or when they tell you later, sometimes years later, that your lessons changed their lives for the better.

            Although where is medical care free? I do not know doctors that work for nothing, except for Doctor’s without borders. Most doctors are being paid for their services handsomely by either the patients directly, insurance companies, or by the State. Both of which get their moneys from either tax payers or insurance policy holders premiums.

            There are though many generous and good people in the world (only the selfish and greedy think everyone is selfish and greedy,) yet very little in life is free.

            I would have to say from personal experience, I have always found it much more rewarding to give than receive.

          • Probotector

            Dr. Sun is from the UK, where most medical care, apart from prescription medicine, is freely available on the National Health Service. The NHS is funded by taxes, and NHS doctors are still handsomely paid, but the idea of British medical care is that it’s primarily humanitarian, not profit-driven. Of course, there are private medical companies too, but even they would put professionalism first. I don’ know whether he worked for private or NHS hospitals and practices, but for a British doctor to see only money in providing services is quite out of character.

          • Wodowsan

            Most doctors I know, unfortunately, do enter the profession for the money and the women (women love well to do doctors.)

            As for Chinese and Indians, and Jews there is a tradition in a lot of families to pressure their children to become doctors, not because they want their children to great humanitarians, but because they look at being a doctor as a lucrative profession.

            I agree with you that ideally I would rather be treated by a doctor who loves medicine, loves caring for people, and does it for humanitarian reasons. Few though are like that. Most enter the profession for the large house with the in-ground pool in the back, the trophy wife in the bikini with the cocktail in hand, the Mercedes and BMW in their three car garage, and the country club memberships to play golf and go yachting.

            As I was pointing out, even in Great Britain the doctors get paid, not much as my make in the States. Very few things are really free in life, in someway we all pay, either with high premiums or high taxes. People need to make a living, yet the truly good and generous will offer free services to the truly needy in their free time. For example: Doctors without Borders. Or many hospitals run by religions.

          • Probotector

            Well, he has a more impressive, and longer list of credentials than I gave him credit for. Seriously, how old is this guy? However, he still has an arrogant and narrow-minded mentality, and certainly a prejudiced disdain for anyone who’s not making a difference in China in the same way that he is.

          • Wodowsan

            I do not think he is upset that Western guys like Asian girls. It is likely he is upset that Asian girls like western men. I am assuming he is an Asian male with issues. If he is not I really do not understand his hostility. He also clearly did not read my response why I was giving free English corners.

          • I believe he’s white British. I would presume he feels that ESL teachers “cheapen” his status as a Western foreigner, and that their promiscuous antics negatively affect the reputation of a more enlightened laowai such as himself.

          • Wodowsan

            Promiscuous antics? A more enlightened laowai? Are you suggesting that Asians are not sexual? If so why are there so many Chinese? Are Chinese men known for being loyal to their wives? Not having affairs, like those terrible white men?

            And if these low level laowi are so promiscuous in China, who are they being promiscuous with? Each other? All the White men in China are gay being promiscuous with other white men?

            Matt, I realize you have nice low angel photo of yourself, and think yourself on a higher level some how above the carnal desires of us low class in heat white monkeys, but Chinese are no less promiscuous or less sexual then Westerns. The only difference is they hide it from others as best they can.

            Fact is I know many more Chinese husband that have had “2nd wives” than western men that do. It is not a scientific survey, but I have taught university in both countries and have had many more Chinese students tell me about their father’s sexual adventures and their cheating with other women. I have not had a single American student tell me these types of personal family stories.

            Although in America you hear much more about divorce. In China they don’t divorce so much, instead they just have what I call “living dead marriages” They stay married for face, yet in all reality it is not a loving marriage. It is merely two strangers living in the same house. I had a student where her parents would never talk to each other directly. They would talk though their children. The father, they all knew had another woman, but they stayed married for the sake of face with the relatives and neighbors.

            For your information dating many girls is not cheating, dating is going out and getting to know people, in the hopes of finding the right person. It is like going on many job interviews to find the right job.

            The problem I noted living in Taiwan and China is that too many Chinese guys treat dating like marriage, but don’t treat marriage like marriage. I had several Chinese girls actually tell me that is ok with them if I marry them and have affairs, as long as I return home to them each night. I could never imagine a western woman telling me that.
            I also know married Chinese women who have had affairs. Several actually. Of the ones I know of all were highly educated.

            You may believe he is a white Brit. but that does not mean he is. Not all Brits are white. Many are Asian, many are black. It is not homogenous society like China. It is more like America with it’s diversity.

            I am guessing he is not of European decent. I may be wrong, but if I am I am really curious why the hostility and bigotry towards white guys dating Asian girls? I really think what really upsetting both of you is not that white men date Chinese women, but that Chinese women are dating white men.

          • I’m going to post my comment again, this time with the key words in bold:

            I believe he’s white British. I would presume he feels that ESL teachers “cheapen” his status as a Western foreigner, and that their promiscuous antics negatively affect the reputation of a more enlightened laowai such as himself.

            Those bold words indicate I was paraphrasing his point of view. I did not input any of my point of view in my comment, and in fact if you had read more of my comments over the past year or two, you would realize that you couldn’t possibly be directing your “rant” to a more inappropriate person, as I have argued similar points in the past (I’m sure one or two regulars could back me up on this if they happen to be reading this).

            I believe I recall Dr Sun characterizing himself as white; I could be wrong. What I do know is that he has characterized himself as a racial/ethnic foreigner with respect to Chinese people, and therefore his consternation about ESL teachers frankly has nothing to do with white people since he considers himself to be in the same category as white people insofar as he is a racial/ethnic foreigner in China. Note that he said nothing about “white people” in his comment; I merely mentioned him possibly being white to illustrate that he is almost certainly not of East Asian descent.

          • Wodowsan

            I am sorry to say I have not read your other posts. If you were merely making a hypostasis of what his reasoning may be. I understand that it does not mean that is your position. I apologize for my misinterpretation of your post. I wrongly took it that you were agreeing with his statements, not that you trying to guess his reasoning.

            He stated here that he is not a missionary, so I really do not understand his attitude towards ESL teacher’s personal lives.

            If he was righteous bible thumper than I could understand his attitude, but then why only condemn the sexual lifestyles of only ESL teachers, as if they are the only sexually active people in China. I have known many a doctor and nurse (Asian and Western) that were extremely sexual, if anything much more so the general public. You will find that studies have shown they people with higher IQs and more advanced education are much more sexual active, and adventurous than those with lower IQs and less formal education. I taught a medical university and a hospital in Chongqing. Doctors, nurses, and professor (Chinese) were no less sexually active than ESL teachers. I also know several Chinese students who had relationships with their Chinese professors.

            I still think there is a racial element to his hostility. Only he really knows. Perhaps he can set us all straight.

            Matt, I am sorry for misunderstanding your post. Yet I have heard your comments from other Chinese before, and Chinese-American missionaries.

          • No hard feelings.

            Like I said, I surmise that he just feels embarrassed by a group of people that, whether for valid or invalid reasons, has a poor reputation in China and therefore is a “blight” on a foreigner such as himself who considers his profession and credentials to be “superior” to his ESL teaching counterparts, which admittedly do not face such rigorous and demanding standards as those required by the medical profession.

            One can even understand the situation without the whole expat/foreigner aspect. Think of it like this: If you were a doctor, wouldn’t you feel short-changed if everyone automatically assumed you were just a language teacher, particularly in an regional industry known for hiring people simply for how they look? Professionals tend to take great pride in their status, and I imagine he doesn’t like being confused for an ESL teacher, especially when Chinese (and other East Asian) standards for hiring ESL teachers are often incredibly insipid (“You’re white? Great, you’re hired! Who cares that you’re Ukrainian and speak with an abysmal accent!”).

            And although undeserved, there is certainly a stigma in China (and the rest of East Asia) of ESL teachers being promiscuous with students, such that even if Dr Sun is white (or rather, especially if he’s white), such a stigma would adversely affect him as well. Frustrated by that stigma, Dr Sun presumably takes his frustration out on ESL teachers.

            Again, this is all only my supposition. My apologies to Dr Sun if I have short-changed him in any way.

          • Wodowsan

            I can in some ways understand your point. Having over eight years of higher education and a M.S. Ed. I do find it annoying to not be treated as professional educator, but a mere white monkey in the window.

            I have often called these unqualified ESL teachers as “backpackers” and as “country hoppers” There are many that use English as a way to pay their travel expenses. But I never condemned them. I look at the bigotry among the Chinese to just hire someone because they are white. A Chinese-American, or African-American who have the same education as I do, are just as qualified. They are no less able to teach English because they are not white.

            And you are correct in China (especially in the training schools) they will hire white non-native English speakers because that is what the Chinese parents want to buy, instead of a much more qualified Native English speaker of African or Asian heritage. Many things are judged by the surface. It is one reason they ask for your photo. What does my looks have to do with my education, skills, and professional experience? I am I applying for a modeling job, or teaching?

            I have also known a lot of Europeans, Canadians, Australians, White South Africans, and New Zealanders that get upset that too many Chinese always assume they are Americans, when of course they are not. It is this type of generalization and shallow thinking that is the problem, not ESL teachers.

          • Well said. It’s easy for Dr Sun to scapegoat all ESL teachers as he isn’t one. Being a qualified ESL teacher, you are forced to take a more nuanced approach in who you chose to condemn. It’s much like how non-Americans routinely condemn all Americans, whereas Americans themselves might instead single out Californians or Southerners (or liberals or conservatives, or some other group, for better or for worse) as a more nuanced approach of identifying the particular source of ills plaguing the country.

            In other words, outsiders eagerly generalize the inside while insiders eagerly segregate the inside.

          • Wodowsan

            perhaps it is best we all learn just judge individuals for their own character, and not generalize entire groups of people.
            Although one cannot deny that groups of people do form cultures among themselves and group personality, but rarely are all the individuals of any group have the exact same personality as the group. It is why we should just each person for who they are, not what they are.

          • Wodowsan

            Actually, I said I do not blame those unqualified ESL teachers. I blame the Chinese that hire them for superficial reasons.

            I am technically not a qualified ESL teacher since I do not have a degree or certification in ESL. My areas of study have been cinema, history (American and Chinese,) Political Science, Chinese language studies, and Education. In my class I never teach ESL. I teach subjects, but in English. I figured my students should learn some substance, improve their higher cognitive skills, and communications skills as they improve their English.

            I actually teach them the same way I teach my native English speaking students. The only difference is I teach non-English speakers a bit slower and explain much more vocabulary and correct their grammar when they do make mistakes, but they are learning the same material I taught my American university students.

            Although I am supposedly not qualified I have published in an academic journal how to write better listening exams, had a university level textbook published by Longman in Taiwan, and have given teaching seminars to ESL teachers on teaching methods for English as a second Language Students in Taiwan and in China. I have taught over 5000 students in my career. Yet here in America they will not hire me to teach ESL because I do not have a certificate. in ESL.

          • Dr Sun

            I have never said “all ESL teachers” quite the opposite I have on numerous occasions said that there are excellent ESL Teachers, professional and dedicated.
            I do have a problem however with professionals, be they doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Social workers, Priests etc sleeping with their students, patients or clients. Its unethical, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.

          • Probotector

            A good statement, but the origin of these issues stem from the ignorance and generalisation of white people in China by Chinese people. They’re not caused by foreign teachers themselves, in which case, (assuming your supposition is correct) his beef should be with Chinese stereotyping of him, and not with us. Does he feel that if all ESL teachers were done away with, and China only hired ‘professionals’ like himself, the prejudice and xenophobia would disappear?

          • Dr Sun

            Apology accepted

          • Probotector

            No, look at his last comment to me, “as an ex-SAS medic, then ER/ICU nurse who has worked in the UK,USA,Falklands, N.Ireland, Rhodesia,Bosnia, Iraq,AUS,SA, etc, then Trauma surgeon , now working in China,”, he is British.

          • Wodowsan

            Being a Brit does not mean he is not an Asian male. Not all Brits are White. Britain has become much more like America in its diversity.

          • Probotector

            Yeah, it’s my country, I am aware. Perhaps you’re right, then, I’m not sure. It’s unlikely though that a British born Asian would have fought in conflicts dating back to the early ’80s, as we didn’t have the diversity back then as much as we do now, esp in the Armed Forces.

          • Dr Sun

            For once we agree

            Although I hazard a guess that you don’t know about the financial costs, academic hardship or brutal working hours involved in becoming a doctor.

          • Wodowsan

            I do. If you check my posts to Confucius. I dated a doctor, lived with a nurse, taught at a hospital and medical university for three years. Edited a Medical Journal, produced training videos for EMS workers, was the slide projectionist as a Grad student for several medical conferences at Yale Medical Hospital, and I have assisted doctors in writing papers for medical journals.

            I am aware. Are you not aware that I too have over eight years of higher education, basically the same credit hours as most doctors? That I have always worked while a student to pay for my education, and also had years of loans to pay off for so many years of study. Yet will never make the same money as a medical doctor as I do in education.

            Don’t be so quick to paint your negative brush.

            If you do agree, then you owe me an apology in associating me with pedophiles.

          • Dr Sun

            you do realise there is no Yale Medical Hospital, you of course would realise that if you had ever worked within the Yale affiliated hospital system.

          • Wodowsan

            actually there is. It is also associated with Bridgeport hospital. http://www.ynhh.org/
            sorry Yale-New Haven Hospital is the official name.

          • Dr Sun

            too late your retrospective search cant save you, you were busted. No one who has ever worked within Yale medical system calls it Yale medical hospital, never has never did.

          • Wodowsan

            You clearly never lived in Connecticut. Fact is you don’t know what your talking about.

          • Dr Sun

            fact is I do, you dont

          • Dr Sun

            lol, as an ex-SAS medic, then ER/ICU nurse who has worked in the UK,USA,Falklands, N.Ireland, Rhodesia,Bosnia, Iraq,AUS,SA, etc, then Trauma surgeon , now working in China, I sort of resent the accusation that I’m in it for the money. I would hazard a guess you are the selfish one.

          • Probotector

            Seriously, what’s your hatred of English teachers about? No, we don’t all expect students to “spread their legs for a pass score.” and no, we’re not all here because of yellow fever. Some people actually teach because they like it and they want to do something beneficial for these students. I’m with Kai on this one: your hatred is backing you into a corner. You say you’re not in it for the money, but can’t understand why a dude would want to teach English for free; you just assume it’s all for pussy?

            “I would hazard a guess you are the selfish one.”

            Based on what? Your prejudice that all English teachers are the same?

            “Of course there are a few ESL teachers not doing that or spreading their religion, but they are as rare as Rocking horse shit.”

            No, they tend to be the rule, not the exception. I’ve only ever met one bible thumper and one dude chasing tail, in nine years here. Those sorts of teachers don’t last long. Most foreign teachers who live here long term get married and settle down with one Chinese woman. Also, many English teachers are retirees and/or women, so they wouldn’t be here for such nefarious reasons as you’re suggesting. Don’t be so naive and presumptuous.

          • Dr Sun

            Its called reality dude and having been around the block, NO ONE…NO ONE does anything for free, there is always a reward being sort. You can gloss it over all you like, the priests did it, the likes of Rolf Harris, Jimmy Saville did and some ESL teachers sadly are doing it to.
            I assume you’re not that completely and utterly stupid to believe that if some plumber said to you that their going to fix the water heater , A/C and plumbing for free and teach your daughter maths, you’d believe him.

            Btw many priests, Rolf Harris, saville all abused as retirees. Woman do abuse as well so your last point is factually incorrect and mute.

          • Probotector

            You sound insane. What facts is all this based on? Before, we were only talking about the stereotype of foreigners coming here looking for sex, as opposed to pedophilia, which you seem to have arbitrarily brought up in order to hijack the discussion. You’re basically saying foreign teachers are pedophiles and rapists. That is simply not the case at all. For one thing, they would be put to death over here for that. Of course, that doesn’t mean it never happens, but it’s extremely rare. How many cases of foreigners committing pedophilic rape/abuse in China do you know of? My point about retired old men, and women of any age, is that they are less likely to look for student pussy than say, a guy in his 20s, frankly because they know a Chinese girl wouldn’t normally respond to them. I know old guys and women have committed pedophilia, but I already mentioned that your assertion that they would come here to do that is unlikely and absurd.

            In any case. having sex with Chinese women, be they students or not, is not sexual abuse if it is between two consenting adults. Now, you can argue it’s an abuse of responsibility as a teacher, but I’m not necessarily saying that these foreign teachers are boning their students. Again, those that go around doing that, bar and bed hopping (with students or local girls), are not all that common vis-a-vis the ones who seek a relationship/marriage with one particular woman. If you actually knew and spoke to any foreign teachers in this country, or at least observed their behaviour, you would know this.

            btw mute = silent; moot = lacking in practical relevance.

            That, along with your continual muddling of ‘your’ and ‘you’re’ in your posts elsewhere, suggests you are in need of help from an English teacher yourself.

          • Dr Sun

            I guess sex abusers always have a good argument, at least to themselves to justify their actions.

          • Probotector

            Really, I think you’re just making this up.

          • Dr Sun

            not at all, I fully know why ESL teachers give “Free” English corners” and it has nothing to with Idealism, but to do with suffering from “yellow Fever” or being a missionary, neither are un-selfish or altruistic motives, but self serving.

          • Kai

            Why are you consciously painting yourself into a corner? It won’t hurt you to extend some reasonable benefit of the doubt instead of doubling down on a negative generalization you want to antagonistically shoehorn Wodowsan into? What’s the profit in this?

          • Wodowsan

            It seems you did not read my reply. I said I was giving them as a marketing tool to promote and attract investors to open my all school. The public library approached me to do them. As for having relationships with students, one I did at that free English corner and I married her.

            So your statement about “All” ESL teachers is not true. Although I never thought of my self as ESL teacher. I always taught subjects from History, political science, psychology, cultural studies, and creative writing & character development.

            I have taught university in China, Taiwan and in the United States: English Communications, Into to Western Civ, Business Writing, Media Literacy, Cinema History, History of Invention & Technology, European History 1500-1815, and Public Speaking (for American Students not ESL)

            Some of us are actually teachers that love learning and teaching. We are not all backpackers just using English teaching as a means to country hop.

            Oh, I have taught religion in my classes, comparative that is. I am an atheist, so I was not propagating any faith. I was amazed how little Chinese students knew about and understood what most people in the world do believe in. So I did design a lesson to teach them about the major world religions.

            If I propagated anything with my classes it has always been the love of learning, trying to understand the other side, understanding that many times there is more than one answer to most questions, and to learn to think more deeply, with logic and reason. I also wanted them to learn to be very weary of generalizations and making statements of absolutism.

          • Dr Sun

            Hang on I did not say “all ESL teachers”, you did not post that you were giving these “free lessons” as a marketing tool. However it is interesting that is how and where you met your future wife.

          • Wodowsan

            And why should that be a problem for you how I met her?Don’t a lot people meet their spouses through their work or when in school. My first wife I met when I was in university when were both students. How many doctors marry nurses, military personal marry other military personal? You are saying in your profession people that work together don’t date, don’t fall in love, and don’t get married?
            Do you feel the only proper way to meet someone is in church, online, enraged marriage by parents, or in a night club? I met her in a library, and actually she approached me after one of my classes I did not approach her. She was not a child, she had already graduated from university and was librarian. I really do not understand your problem.
            So we are all curious, what is your beef with ESL teachers? Are you an Asian male that is just irate that Chinese girls like western men or just a guy who lost a girlfriend or wife to some guy who taught English?

          • Dr Sun

            twist and turn, why don’t you.

            A free “english corner” is not reflective of professional behaviour. But then it wasn’t free was it?, it was a marketing tool for a private school (so some reward was being sought after all)
            Your analogy of Drs marrying nurses that they work with as equals is in no way similar to teachers hooking up with their students at a” free English corner”
            I would hope if nothing else the actions of Rolf Harris, Jimmy Saville, the events of many teachers, Catholic priests and at Rochdale would have taught you that.

            My point being is that if you believe that there is a single ESL teacher giving “free lessons” you must have grown up with the Daisy’s.

          • Wodowsan

            How can you compare my being with my wife who was 25 years old when I met her with a priest molesting children or Rolf Harrison who was also molesting children? (I don’t know of Jimmy Saville. Although I can only assume he was also a child molester.)

            Comparing me to pedophiles would be insulting if were not so ridiculous and a clear indication of your own personal troubles.

            And yes the English corners were free, freer than any socialized medicine. I did them for several months and was not paid by the library or the students. It was beneficial to me in the sense of trying to understand the market, although I never opened the school so it did not result in any money.I do not regret having done them. I did meet my wife there, but I also made good friends that I am still in contact with them even though I have returned to the States and is over two years later.

            The fact is if I did not need money to live, I would teach for free. I have tutored students that need help after classes for no additional monetary rewards or anything else, on my own time.

            You still have not answered my question; are you an Asian male? And if you are not, why do you have a problem with teachers dating their ADULT students? Did you lose out to an English teacher? Where you molested as a child by a teacher? Do you think teachers should be celibate but doctors shouldn’t?

          • Dr Sun

            when it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, I call it a duck.

          • Wodowsan

            Is that your answer to my question. Since it is an American idiom too. I understand the meaning? You are an Asian male that hates Chinese girls liking western men. So you are simply a bigot. Because you sure quake like one.

          • Dr Sun

            Wrong on all counts.

          • Wodowsan

            Then, please enlighten us. What is your issue with teachers dating adult students. Although
            I do think teachers should not date current students. I would agree with you that is not professional especially if grades are an issue.
            I do not though see any problem with dating a former adult student that one had met in a class. My geologists teacher’s wife was one of his former students.
            My wife for example I did not date until after she was my student. We did not date when I was doing the English corner and even we did there was grading, diploma, or certificate to complicate our relationship. I personal nature I would not date current students because of my fears they were looking for an easy way to get a better grade. I had other girls approach me and I had told them that after the course is over and if they are still interested we could have a cup of coffee together and see from there.
            Would you also condemn doctors dating former adult patients or even a current patient?
            I am puzzled with your hostility so please enlighten.

          • Dr Sun

            Its about power, influence and abuse. Its about how it is abused. Now you say teacher to adult student, well any student over 18 is a adult are they not ? but is the university student a equal in power to the professor. Lets take it another way should nurses or doctors date their adult patients ?
            Is the relationship based/ formed on equality, is it professional ?

          • Wodowsan

            What do you mean now I say? You think I married a minor? And yes over 18 is an adult or they are not? Personally my line is 23 and above. Even when I was 19 I dated 23 and older. I feel no one is really mature until they have full frontal brain development.

            How many relationships are formed on equality? If that were the case why do women always want a man taller than them, stronger than them, and with incomes higher than them? How many women want to date a man who they feel is less intelligent than them? How many want to marry a man younger? Yes I know there are exceptions. My first wife was a year older than myself, but on a whole women do not want younger, shorter, weaker, less educated, less intelligent, and/or less financially prosperous.

            I am not saying it is right, I am saying that few relationships are based on equality. I remember having female doctors as students and their complaining there are no good men. I told them the problem is they are always looking up and see fewer and fewer men as they climb the ladder of success. Perhaps if they looked down they may find the perfect guy right at their feet, honest, romantic, loving, loyal, hardworking, humorous, and more. Male doctors have no problem marrying a nurse or a waitress, or secretary that make much less money than them. So are you saying nurses should only marry nurses? doctors only marry doctors. You should only marry a person with the same income as you? The same height? The age?

            As I said before I do agree that a teacher should not date current students. It is not professional. Yet why is it wrong to date a former student? Why is wrong to date someone over 18 if that is legally an adulthood? If you think that 18 isn’t an adult then perhaps we should raise the legal age to 23? Meaning they can not sign contracts, they cannot join the military, they cannot marry, and they cannot vote until 23, or do think the age should be older?

            I really do not see who appointed you the marriage czar? What are your qualification to decided who should date who between consenting adults?

          • Wodowsan

            Well then I am puzzled. Please enlighten me of your objection. My only other theory is that you feel it is unprofessional to date current students where a grade, diploma, or certificate is involved.

            If that is the case, I do agree with you. Teachers should not date current students. It is not fair to the other students or the student. I know for myself if my girlfriend was one of my students I would be tougher on her in order not to show any favoritism.

            My wife though was in an Adult student in an English corner. There was no grading, no diploma, and no certificate in the balance. After I finished teaching the course we had stayed in contact, as I did with many of the students in her group (male and female.) We did not date until months later.

            I have had students during a course tell me they were in love with me and wanted to be with me. I always told them I don’t date my students, but if they still felt the same way after the course was over we could have coffee sometime and see how it goes from there. Half never followed up after the course was over. So I have always fearful of them wanting to use me. Their feelings were not sincere.

            So is my above hypothesis correct? If it is I understand, But if you still object to a teacher dating an adult former student I really do not understand your hostility. Would you also condemn a doctor from dating a former patient? A pilot dating a former passenger? Or even Minister marrying a women from his parish?

  • Markoff

    “Why commit suicide? If you want to kill, you should at least go kill those animals!”

    the best comment, dunno how will commiting suicide help anyone, classic selfish Chinese approach. people commiting suicides without trying to do some noble thing or change something

  • RAWR2123

    @lacompacida, did you even read the comments? Most of the comments are about lynching the rapists. Maybe 1 comment out of 40 or so blames the victim.

  • Boris

    These guys need to be castrated and then tortured and then killed in the same manner than the people of Yulin put down dogs.

  • Boris

    This is why the rape stats in China are skewed. I am sure that guy who says only white people rape will have a go at this soon enough, but when the bent law says its not rape (and wearing a condom is not rape) such stats won’t match up.

    • Germandude

      Exactly. This has always bugged me when Mr. whuddyasack talked about “White men are raping more than yellow men” and shit like that.

      • 白色纯棉小裤裤

        ..Unfortunately that claim has nothing to do with the rape stats in China. In fact, China has never published its rape stats.

        http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

        72.4% of the US population are white, 4.8% of the US population are Asian. According to the FBI, 65% of all men arrested for rape are white, 0.9% of all men arrested for rape are Asian.

        After a simple calculation: White Americans are 4.8 times more likely to be arrested for forcible rape than Asian Americans.

        • Kai

          This is a really misguided path of argument to go down.

          Great, White Americans are more likely to be arrested for forcible rape than Asian Americans. A higher percentage of Black Americans are incarcerated. There are all relevant circumstantial factors for why stuff like this is so.

          Even without those circumstantial factors, the stats of one country ultimately do little to substantiate any claim about “white men raping more than yellow men” since not all white men and yellow men are in America.

          This is retarded. There is no meaningful link between race and propensity to rape. Stop digging.

          There’s a lot of unreported rape in China. There’s a lot of unreported rape in America. Anyone who wants to make the argument that one country or people are worse than the other in this is being an asshole following prejudices more than actual information available. Let’s leave it at that. Slam the idiots who argue this sort of thing, don’t join them.

      • Zappa Frank

        one is already arrived.. with his inability to read statistic that, according to him, should prove the superior intelligence of the Asian “race”..how sad that he was never able to find a prove, a case of study or anything except his opinion..

        • Germandude

          I know, that’s why I don’t reply that idiot.

          I can play the same way he is, using his statement:

          White Americans are 4.8 times more likely to be arrested for forcible rape than Asian Americans

          Looks like racism against white people is pretty high, considering that chances are 4.8 times higher that cops will catch a perpetrator if he is white.

          See what I did there? ;-)

          • Zappa Frank

            I anticipate that he will claim that since he did the distinction between American whites and American Asians than since they live in the same country the procedures are applied in the same way to both.. this would be if we consider the culture of every community the same, the isolationism of some communities none, the inclination to sue and to go to police, hospital the same.. and so on (even the trust in police is not the same and sometime for a good reason).. in US some Asian communities are isolated, some barely talk English or not at all, and so on.. Is the same in Italy for instance, if we look statistics in south Italy rapes are a lot less than in north..obviously that’s not true at all..

          • JabroniZamboni

            I’ve raped 12 Calabrese.

          • Zappa Frank

            good job tiger… now except you are called cipriani or some other local village boss surname you may have to marry them or to wait for the family revenge.. that’s the life in Saudi Calabria

          • BaiGui

            Sweden has become quite a violent country but it has nothing to do with crime recording practices. Do not trust any swedish female sociologist trying to do a cover-up operation on the alarming rape statistics. Truth is, Sweden is not being raped by swedes.

  • JabroniZamboni

    Deplorable and disgusting. I don’t know which is more, the shameless actions of the assailants, the netizens pointing the finger at the girls, or the complete unwillingness for law enforcement in this country to do their jobs.

    Terrible law enforcement is not only the bane of rural areas. It is simply a joke, only flexing its muscle when it is time to fill their own pockets with bribe money. In Shenzhen it is laughable. They get paid to sleep.

    For a totalitarian regime, it is amazing just how lawless this place is. Most citizens don’t give a damn, are so brainwashed, want to maintain the status quo, and only care about how they can fill their pockets. The problems of society are not theirs. The inherent conundrum with this, is that with no one caring about society at large, it can never improve.

    This is one of the biggest cancers that plague this country. A healthy society with justice means a healthy country, and healthy people. Unfortunately it would probably take at least 25 years of civic education before any changes are possible. This society is just so behind and lacking in these respects. It is quite a shame.

    Come on China, wake up. It doesn’t have to be this way.

  • Zappa Frank

    there is no evidence police said. that points out two problems in my opinion. First girls did not go to the hospital after the rape, they may even did not consider to have been raped….among ‘traditional societies’ happened that the shame, the sense of guilty prevent victims from suing, going to the hospital, talking about the fact or even think they deserved it.. I guess it may be this scenario. Second point in my opinion Chinese laws may lack of effectiveness for those cases..

  • Comebackkid13

    That sounds….awful. Reasons?

    • JabroniZamboni

      China’s one child policy was a massive failure that lead to parents terminating pregnancies that were thought to be female.

      The 45 million comment as well as 2015 is an exaggeration.

  • NightKnight

    First-world China doesn’t mean First World.

  • Foreign Devil

    What happened to all those Chinese netizens saying how barbaric India is for it’s gang rapes?

    • Boris

      “At least we aren’t as bad as the Indians” – Chinese netizen

  • Dr Sun

    bullshit

  • Wodowsan

    To set the record straight. I was not undermining the years of study doctors endure to become doctors, or their importance to society.

    I was saying that many initially enter the profession or are pressured by family to enter it because they think it will be a lucrative career. For example no one enters teaching thinking they are going to make a lot of money, yet many of us in academia spend as many years studying as doctors do. I have eight years of higher education for example, but as a teacher I make nothing compared to a medical doctor. Yet if I did not need money to live I would teach for free. I do enjoy the interaction with my students. How many doctors would continue to practice medicine if they were not handsomely rewarded monetarily?

    As for my experience with doctors: I taught at a medical university and hospital for three years. I dated a doctor, I lived with a nurse for over a year and half. I used to edit a medical academic journal. Many of my students were doctors. I have assisted medical doctors in writing research papers.

    I would do the hiring interviews for doctors who were seeking employment at the hospital I taught at. The one question I always asked was “Why do you want to be a doctor?’ The number one answer of Chinese doctors was “My parents chose the career for me” The number two answer was “Income” the minority would say because they had a sick relative and wanted to help them. The smallest group said they found medicine interesting and loved helping people. I usually recommended the last group for the positions.

    Don’t put medical doctors on such a high horse. They are not some magical priesthood, and many times they do not know what they are doing and faking their way through it. It is the reason they pay a third of their incomes to malpractice insurance in the States. (The other reason is that lawyers in America are such scum. If you want to talk about a profession I have very little respect for it is American lawyers, not doctors.)

    I even had a medical doctor tell me that rabies was spread by birds. I told him no, it is only spread by mammals. He told me that bats carry it. I had to explain to this medical doctor that bats are not birds. They are mammals.

    And yes the doctors I know here in the States drive mostly BMW’s, Mercedes, or Lexus. One needs to only go to the doctors parking lot at any hospital or medical office. Go to a school or university parking lot and count how many luxury cars they are driving, more often it is the students not the teachers’ cars.

    There is nothing wrong with making money, but making money does not make you a better person than others.

    My point was not to belittle the hard work of doctors and nurses (if anything nurses are not given enough praise,) but many professions work just as hard. I am though saying that many that want to become doctors do not do so for a love of medicine or the desire to help people. They do enter the profession because they think it will be finically rewarding.

    As for teachers, most do it for the love of learning and a desire to help students, very few do it for the long vacations, but I do not know any that do it for the money. If they did enter teaching for money they are idiots. Talk about not getting paid enough. I too had student loans to pay off, for as many years of schooling as most medical doctors.

    • Dr Sun

      you mean like the gym teacher in India last week

      joined the profession for a love of teaching ?

      http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/queens-gym-teacher-raped-16-year-old-wrestler-school-prosecutors-article-1.1815445

      http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/01/pennsylvania-teacher-raped-16-year-old-student-in-school-police-say/

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699808/Married-sports-teacher-computer-child-porn-arrested-police-investigating-rape-six-year-old-girl-staff-private-school-India.html

      http://www.voanews.com/content/teacher-arrested-in-india-in-rape-of-six-year-old-girl/1961677.html

      my point here is please stop with doctors do it for money, teachers are so noble, its bs.

      If you really are awake and living you know full well that a lot of teachers (ESL teachers as well) are not as noble as say you are, they are not here to educate but to dip their wick into as many girls and boys as they can.

      So stop with the the only difference between ESL teachers and God is that God isnt a ESL teacher crap.

      • Wodowsan

        Actually you were the one started with the accusations. I have said their are noble doctors, doctors’ without borders for example, and many charity hospitals around the world. Yet many do enter the profession for monetary reason or are pressured by family to enter medicine for that reason. Are you saying there are not doctors like that? The majority enter the profession, years of schooling and debt for the love of medicine and humanity? I know many do, but too many do not.

        I never said all teachers are noble, they are not. I have been explaining to you my motives honestly. Yet you clearly have some chip on your shoulder and resentment towards teachers.

        I know many teachers, and I would say the majority that enter the profession for the love of the subject they teach. I did say there are some that enter it only because they think they will not have to work so much. That is before they realize that any good teacher is always a good student and spends three hours preparing for every one hour they teach. They also learn that caring for your students is beyond just their grades and when the bell rings. No one in their right mind enters education thinking they are going to live large, like so many that enter medical school.

        Country hoppers and backpacker that use ESL as a way to party their way around the world I do not consider professional educators. I do not blame them for using the resources they have to travel. I do blame the schools and the universities that are interested in only white monkeys at the front of classroom to attract the money of naïve racist parents.

        Your clear bigotry and resentment towards teachers is interesting, I wish could have you on a therapist’s couch to try understand what is haunting your subconscious. Perhaps even write an academic paper on your condition.

        Also what is your hang up about sex? I know from personal experience that many doctors and nurses are extremely sexual, much more so than the general public. Studies have shown that Intelligent people are much more sexual and adventurous than the average person. Which makes sense since the sexiest part of the body is the mind and doctors and nurses are usually above average in intelligence.

        • Dr Sun

          I have no resentment towards teachers, that are professional teachers that behave in a professional and ethical way. I do however dislike the yellow fever backpackers and bride hunters that make up the apparent majority of ESL teachers. As a professional in your field I’m, surprised you defend this kind of trash teacher, who spends a year or so here, then leave/ gets kicked out, then join china smack as the all anti china troll like “Rick in or ex-exp”.
          I kind of figured you were not one of those troll disgruntled ex esl teachers that did not find a different piece of student pussy each and every day (or even one, no matter how many free english corners they attended over the year), but as said surprised you even defend them and that you pretend there are so few of them.
          After you have have been here for a few years and talked to students, chinese English school bosses and parents, you to will may become aware how ESL teachers do not have a good reputation.
          This is a shame, as there there many great, even excellent ESL teachers in china, but unfortunately they are the very small minority, and their standing is being constantly undermined by the majority of trash.

          • Wodowsan

            I was nine years in Taiwan. Teaching university there for eight years. Chongqing, I was there for over three years, also teaching university. And I am sorry if anything I had more girls and women approaching me than the other way around, Chinese students and Chinese teachers.

            I even know many western teachers that fell in love with Chinese girls, but were heart broken by those girls. They were just a adventure for these girls. Another secret from their parents, They never attended to marry them since they knew their parents would not approve. So they had their fun with their white lover, but then would dump them. Should I condemn all Chinese women for the behavior of these young women?

            I personally had a Chinese girlfriend in Taiwan, living with me for two years. She never told her parents about me. I was very much in love with her. She would go on dates with Chinese guys her mother would arrange for her to make her mother happy. I was home alone waiting for her as she was on these dates with other men, and had to be understanding.

            We finally decided we wanted to get married. So she called her mother to tell her she was bringing me home for Chinese New Year. Her mother responded “If he is only your friend he is welcome. If he is your boyfriend he is not.” Only because I was not Chinese.

            We ended up splitting up because of the pressure her parents gave her. Oh, and she was a former student. One year younger than me. She was a teacher too, but taught CAD at another school. I met her teaching part time at a training school while I was a student learning Chinese at Taiwan National Normal University.

            I do not think it is professional to date current students. And of course it is criminal to take advantage of minors no matter what the relationship.

            I do not though think I have the right to condemn other adults for their sexual behavior, as long as it is with other consenting adults. I do not think sex is a dirty or bad thing. I do object to playing with people’s hearts and pretending to care for someone just for sex or just for money, or just for a green card.

          • Dr Sun

            I,m sorry, but I don’t see you wearing a big green hat and frankly I don’t believe a word of this yarn.

          • Wodowsan

            “Big green hat.” A Very Chinese term. You also often use the racist term “yellow fever” as if being attracted to Asian women is something wrong? I guess we should all stay with our own kind? You insist that you are not an Asian male, yet if anything is a yarn I am suspecting that is, just from the terminology and your insulting hostile and racist terms and attitude.

            It also bothers you that people on the site trash China. Unfortunately, I do not know any foreigners who have lived and worked in China for an extended period time dealing with the blatant racism, overly zealous nationalism, the “trust issue”, poor quality of life, the pollution, unsafe food, materialism, censorship, propaganda, the arrogance and absolutism in so many party members, and being cheated out of months of salary from employers cannot but leave a bitter taste on their tongues. If you were really a non-Chinese living and working in China for more than a year you would know what I am talking about.

            Even many Chinese are not happy with the way China is, why do you think so many want to leave? Why do you think those with money and power are sending their money and children overseas? Why do you think so many try time after time to get visa’s to America? Why do you think too many Chinese women are interested in Western men, just for a green card not for love?

            Since returning to the States most Chinese I am still friends with back in China are asking me how I can help them get visas to America. Many Chinese here have even offered me thousands of U.S. dollars to help their family members come to America.

            Even my own wife, does not want to go back to China. I talk about returning because I miss teaching full time. She is set against it. She rather work in a nail salon, and for me to try my hand in writing than return to China where I can teach and she doesn’t have to work.

            But I guess you don’t believe that either? or is it you just choose not believe anything that does not support your prejudices no matter how true they are?

            You consistently call me a liar, and consider my personal experiences as yarns. It is clear it pointless trying to have an honest conversation with you. Probotector is clearly much wiser than me by giving up much earlier trying to have a reasonable exchange with you.

          • Dr Sun

            Listen my friend , there is nothing wrong and have never said there is in being attracted to Asian women, Latino women or whatever, what I do call out is sexual tourists, predators and those who profess to be professionals and abuse that power to get their end away. Be that with 11 year olds in Laos, 14 year olds in thailand or 21 post grad students in China.
            I have spoken about this on length with quite a number of very professional, maybe the Elite of the ESL teachers across China and not one, not anyone have has said that any student has approached them for a relationship beyond that of student to teacher, or that they would even consider dating a student. But they do talk often of the trash teachers that trade grades for sex and groom students for relationships after graduation. Its abuse,a abuse of power and sexual abuse its thats simple. I personally have no time or respect for those engaged in it or those being the mutual apologists for it, by their transparent and weak attempts in trying to deflect the blame onto their victims.

          • Probotector

            I had a perusal of a few of his earliest posts available from a year ago. They bear a star contrast to his current rhetoric:

            Dr Sun BoraBora • a year ago
            “I don’t know dude, but I’ve lived in China a long time and all the white guys I know all have Chinese wives or girlfriends and very few of us go to bars…”

            Dr Sun Scytheria • a year ago
            I like the “Hive-mind” thing, but your right they have been assimilated into the collective, but then again so have most Chinese women. Some break free from the collective when USS Laowai sweeps in though”

            Dr Sun donscarletti • a year ago
            “…I don’t think the alcoholic, Casanova ESL teacher is really representative of the vast majority of hard working ex-pats be they either ESL teachers or something else.”

          • Wodowsan

            The racism and stereotypes he spouts (I would not call it rhetoric since rhetoric actually means a logical and reasonable argument.) I really find it hard to believe he is western European.

            My first nine months in Taiwan I had thirteen different young women tell me they were in love with me. One was a married Chinese English teacher from Hong Kong, Two were Korean classmates at the school I was studying at. One was a secretary at the training school I taught at part time. Two were Chinese Language teachers at the school I was a student at. One was an art teacher I met at a club. The rest were adult students at the training school I taught at.

            His whole premiums that these adult young women are victims if they have a relationship with a foreigner, only shows that he does not understand Asian women and clearly has no respect for them as thinking mature individuals. I remember one of girlfriends in Taiwan, how her parents just tried to stop us from having coffee together. She was 23 years old at the time. Her mother actually cut the phone line when I was talking to her with scissors one night. Her father threatened to call the police on me if I dated her. I even offered them to chaperon our dates.

            They told her they worried I might break her heart. Her reply to them was I wouldn’t, and that she may actually break mine. Which I am sorry to say she did thirteen years later. We had married and I found out she was having an affair with her boss.

            The whole innocent Chinese women thing is a joke. The sex is dirty and bad is hypocrisy, the Chinese are no less sexual or promiscuous than any other ethnic group. The only difference is the whole face B.S. pretending to be something they are not.

            I had a student once enter my office crying. I asked her what was wrong.

            She told me she had sex with her boyfriend.

            I asked her age. “21” she answered.

            I asked if she was pregnant or had caught a STD.

            “No” she answered.

            I then asked her what the problem was.

            “You don’t understand,” she told me “Chinese don’t have sex before marriage.”

            “Really?” I knew from personal experience that was completely false. .

            “Yes, all my classmates are virgins.” She insisted.

            “How do you know?” I questioned

            “They would tell me if they weren’t.” she claimed.

            “Really? Have you told your classmates that you are no longer a virgin?”

            “No. Of course not.” shocked that I would even think she would.

            “Then why do you think they will tell you they are not?” I made my point.

            To make this very true story more to the point. The next week one of her classmates, came to my office with the exact same problem, also crying that she was the only “bad” girl in the university.

            Of course Dr. Sun will not believe any of this, but it is 100% true and have more stories like this.

          • Probotector

            No, I agree, and I’m sorry about your unfortunate experience with your ex-wife. Both my current wife’s family and my first wife’s family accepted me very immediately, although I’ve had trouble accepting them! No, they’re fine, but it’s still pretty heart wrenching stuff.

            Whoever this guy is, he clearly has an anti-foreign expat (esp teacher) agenda. Perhaps he ‘missed the boat’ so to speak.

            I also agree that many Chinese girls can be cold -hearted and cruel, and always need to get their way, like most people in China tbh. Of course that’ the whole face issue. Some girls won’t let you hold their hand in public because they don’t want people knowing you’re together. In that case, said girl doesn’t really love or care about you.

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