Chinese Parents Have Child Poop on Airplane Seat, Reactions

Airplane cabin aisle with seatbacks.

The following article was among the most-discussed articles on Chinese web portal NetEase at time of translation yesterday evening…

From NetEase:

Ethnic Chinese Elders Have Child Defecate In Airplane Seat

July 23 report — According to information from the World Journal in the United States, a Mr. Wang from Rowland Heights said that while he was on a recent Delta flight from Beijing to Detroit, there was a little boy who needed to defecate, and his accompanying grandparents and parents unbelievably laid out newspaper on the seat to have the child “relieve” himself on the spot under the stares of everyone else. Nearby passengers urged the elders to take the child to the restroom, but the child’s grandfather insisted on letting the child defecate on the newspaper placed on the seat. Then a stewardess came over to speak to them but the elders were unmoved, leaving the flight attendant no choice but to drop the subject. As a result of the child defecating in public with lots of people around, the odor polluted the entire cabin, and there were complaints from all the other passengers. Mr. Wang says the actions of the child’s elders deeply embarrassed all ethnic Chinese people.

Photos of a Chinese child defecating (pooping) in the aisle of an airplane midflight.

Note: This image was included in the NetEase article but depict an older incident of a child who defecated in the aisle of a plane, and is thus not related to the incident described in this article.

A Ms. Zhang from Rosemead recently went to Los Angeles International Airport to send off her mother, and there were many ethnic Chinese people gathered at the terminal. Ms. Zhang says she and her mother were the first waiting at an elevator in the terminal, with a young ethnic Indian behind them pushing a wheelchair with an elderly woman in it. However, two men speaking Chinese, one young and one older, suddenly dashed forward and without any apprehension stood in front of Ms. Zhang, without any sense of what they had done being wrong.

The two squeezed ahead while saying, “come here quick, otherwise there won’t be any space left”. When the elevator door opened, the two immediately entered. Even though the elevator was going down, the two refused to get out in order to save their spots. Later, when elevator again opened its doors [returned, now going up], the woman in the wheelchair could not get on, but these two did not look the least bit ashamed, continuing to ride the elevator up. The elderly person and the young person pushing her looked at each other, completely in disbelief. Ms. Zhang was also extremely embarrassed, expressing that these two people have made ethnic Chinese people lose so much face.

Mr. Zhang of San Gabriel also shared that when cars temporarily stop in front of the terminal to drop off passengers, they all park on the shoulder. However, one SUV instead parked on the crosswalk right in front of the terminal entrance, blocking those crossing the street. As several Asian-looking people got out of the car, an airport employee asked the car owner to drive away, but the car owner and the people in his car intentionally pretended they couldn’t understand [English], continuing to unload the car and luggage. Only when the employee angrily threatened to call the police did the car owner suddenly understand and comply with moving the car from where it was parked. Mr. Zhang expressed that this act made him as a fellow Asian feel very embarrassed, at the time wishing the police were nearby to give this person a ticket fining several hundred dollars so he would learn a lesson.

Comments from NetEase:

無123 [网易浙江省杭州市手机网友]:

It is really depressing having compatriots like this…

jane364 [网易江苏省盐城市手机网友]:

Ethnic Chinese can change nationality and still be like that/this… [still have the same bad habits/behavior]

网易四川省成都市手机网友 ip:60.255.*.*

Embarrassing.

网易山西省临汾市手机网友 ip:110.182.*.*

Embarrassing [all Chinese people] even abroad!

让群众嫉妒哥的风骚 [网易广东省佛山市顺德区手机网友]:

Sigh… [poor] character.

网易福建省手机网友 ip:27.149.*.*

Why label it “ethnic Chinese”? She as a single ethnic Chinese doesn’t represent all ethnic Chinese.

奔跑旳犀牛 [网易广东省手机网友]:

32 upvotes! Niubi even abroad. [“32 upvotes” is a Chinese internet meme with origins in Voice of China judge Yang Kun‘s “32 concerts”]

网易贵州省黔东南州手机网友 ip:119.1.*.*

The man has money to fly. [Probably alluding to some people thinking they can do whatever they want just because they have money.]

我的态度都被删了 [网易内蒙古呼和浩特市手机网友]:

Simple unbelievable!

特色社会主义好 [网易北京市手机网友]:

Pa pa pa [a sound, possibly alluding to gun shots or slaps, suggesting these people should be shot or slapped]

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • mr.wiener

    I feel a little like this when I go to Bali sometimes.
    It must be deeply embarrasing for many Chinese people to feel they are being misrepresented by people like this.…but I prefer to see the bright side. The fact that they are ashamed of them is a cause for hope and maybe a catalyst for change

    ……Well, PC comment duely made, proceed generalizing and flaming each other.

    • Germandude

      Yeah, BUT:

      If you are sitting in a plane and a drunk Aussie goes full retard, do you feel embarassed, because he is one of your mates?
      Or, contrary: If an Aussie wins the gold medal in snowboarding, do you feel pride and that the sportsman has greatly influenced Australia’s appearance?

      • mr.wiener

        If he was one of my mates myself and some of the older wiser heads in the rugby club would have talked/beaten him down.
        I feel embarrased when I see radom clueless drunk Aussies making fools pf themselves for sure. You must feel the same when you see a bus load of idjits from ClubKraut in Mayorcca.

        • Germandude

          To a very limited extent, it bothers me. I’ve never been to Mallorca and I cannot feel ashamed of the lower classes and student groups going there. Plus, the hotels and clubs on Mallorca are targeting exactly on those tourists and earn a good buck. No harm done.

          What I am trying to say is: You, as an Aussie, as much as most westerners, know how to distinguish between an individual and an entire group. Of course, we use generalizations, but I don’t see the majority of people treating someone different or expecting another person to behave in a certain way, just because they are from a certain country.

          At the moment, muslims could be the ones that surely get generalized in a bad way. For Europe, they hardly try to change that.

          • Germandude

            Ah, @mrwiener:disqus, I might not be clear enough.

            I think in Europe, people distinguish more. For example: If you are Asian, eventhough there are certain stereotypes assumed, people are open-minded to change their assumptions.
            If you are an arabic/muslim immigrant, people have been confronted with that culture for a long time and unfortunately, hardly do you hear arabic/muslim immigrants condemming muslim terrorism. That’s why people mistrust them.

          • Boris

            “hardly do you hear arabic/muslim immigrants condemming muslim terrorism. That’s why people mistrust them.” – Or it is hardly reported that rabic/muslim immigrants condemming muslim terrorism, which probably be true. I can’t speak for Germany, but seems to be the case in the UK. That and none-whites are usually asked “Where are you from?” and they don’t mean the East End of London, when asking.

          • Germandude

            Also, again, can’t say for Germany, but in the UK, if you are coloured, you still get the “Where are you from?” question, and they aren’t asking if you’re an Eastender.

            I’d guess that in Germany foreigners that are recognized as those by looks (black/indian/chinese etc.) are often being asked where they are from. But out of curiosity. Most people cannot say “Hey, this guy is French/Polish/Italian…” just by pure looks. However, I have yet to see a Chinese friend of mine being treated badly when he said that he is from China. The answer is usually “Cool, China.” People want to know is all. Many are even afraid to mistakenly call a Japanese a Chinese, for the reason that they know its insulting. Others don’t care but would apologize if wrong.

            Regarding the muslims in Germany. After 9/11, I have hardly read anything condemning the attacks by the muslim communities in Germany. The only thing that sticks in mind was: “Don’t generalize, because we are different”. Simultaneously to so-called “liberal muslims” trying to get crosses out of school classrooms, many of the tiresome discussions on where discrimination starts (oddly, it was argued that it’s discriminative if muslim girls have to participate in swimming classes because traditionally, they don’t) and why sportsmen with immigration background don’t have to sing the national anthem while playing their game for Germany.

            First world problems…

          • Zappa Frank

            this is also up to how many immigrant of a certain kind you have and their behavior. In Germany, according to what I’ve read, there aren’t many Chinese. In Italy for instance in high density Chinese populated towns and cities problems are relevant, where the density is not high problems are almost none. In Prato you will hardly find local people in friendly terms with Chinese..in Ferrara it would be easier.

          • Boris

            “This is also up to how many immigrant of a certain kind you have and their behavior.”

            I’d also add perceived behaviour. One thing I do find common in the reaction is, and I’ve been guilty of it numerous times myself, when someone of an outside ethnicity does something wrong, the blame is also shifted to the wider community or group. In some cases, it is understandable (i.e. forced marriages amongst South Asians), in others it is not (i.e. a gang of Asian men deal drugs and have sex with underaged girls). The former is common to the group while the latter isn’t.

          • Germandude

            One thing I do find common in the reaction is, and I’ve been guilty of it numerous times myself, when someone of an outside ethnicity does something wrong, the blame is also shifted to the wider community or group.

            Right. Everybody does that. Whoever denies doing so is not honest to himself.
            Knowing that you (me) are doing it is actually the important thing. And being open-minded and able to give everybody a fair chance to prove you wrong!

          • Rick in China

            When you were discussing distinction earlier, I think I got an impression of, and I’ll use me as an example when I’m writing this:

            – I may generalise and apply attributes to a certain group of people
            – I may think that these attributes are very common or pervasive in their society or when they they travel abroad
            – I may sometimes have a negative attitude when discussing this group of people
            – BUT, when I meet one individual from that group, do not assume _any_ of those generalities are true unless they are proven to be so by that individual directly.

            That’s how I took it as meaning generalize but recognize the individual, is that how you meant it? If so, I mostly agree.

          • Germandude

            Exactly how I mean it.

          • Boris

            I can’t speak for Germany, but in the UK we’ve had ‘issues’ with Muslims or any other group.

            For example, people think that public schools shouldn’t have any religious symbolism (excluding those related to religion i.e. Church of England schools).
            Then there was an issue of Halal food at a school whose students are majority Muslim. They thought of saving money by getting Halal meat only. A small number of Christians objected to it.
            The Halal food scandal is another, basically many places (i.e. Wembley Stadium) were serving halal meat but didn’t label them. Some people were offended by that. And that’s just listing some of them.

            Think there has been an issue with every group at one point or another.

            Oh, about 9/11 apologies – I am sure if you look for it, you will find it. But just don’t expect it to be in the mainstream media, and if it is, it will probably be a sentence at best.

          • Zappa Frank

            sincerely I don’t see anything wrong in asking to someone colored from where is he from… Obviously he is not from England or at least his parents or ancestors were not. What is the difference with asking to someone surnamed “Shevchenko” if he is from Ukraine?

          • Boris

            I can’t say for other countries, but it pretty much comes down to always feeling as an outsider. You are never fully accepted as British. You are born, raised and educated here. You speak the English language better than your parent’s (or grandparent’s) language. For some, the same can be said about their parents. The link to the ‘mother country’ is weak. Some have only been there for a few weeks as a kid. So asking someone where are you from is like saying you’re not from here. I grew up in a city, so had to deal with being made to feel foreign – people stuck with the own kind when they started reaching teenagehood. I was made to feel foreign too in my ‘mother country’. The only places I’ve felt ‘British’ is in East Asia and the Americas (not been to ME or Africa or Down Under).

          • Zappa Frank

            I understand your problem, but this is not a western problem, this is a human nature’s problem. On this aspect we may even say that western countries are the best on this, because they may make you feel foreigner sometimes, but they don’t consider you a foreigner toto coelo. Europe is not the US, there is a long story and till few decades ago wasn’t uncommon to discriminate even among each others. On the other side sometimes, while for you may want to be considered British, is not always what people in your situation or similar want to be. I remember I had a friend, half British and half Kenyan that, despite being unable to say any words in Swahili, felt upset when another friend said that she is British, or rich Jewish in US that never did military service there, but struggle to go to fight an oppression war in a far away country… if I tell to some Chinese in Europe that they are germans, French, Italians, or whatever and not Chinese I think they will hardly agree.

          • Boris

            You are right in your points.

            ‘while for you may want to be considered British’ – The thing is, I never felt British to consider myself British until I was outside of all of that. It’s a strange experience.

          • Alex Dương

            What is the difference with asking to someone surnamed “Shevchenko” if he is from Ukraine?

            The difference is that “Shevchenko” probably would never get asked that question in the first place, unless you think the people asking non-whites where they are from already know what the other person’s last name is.

            If you come to the U.S. and don’t open your mouth, no one will ask you where you’re from because you’re white. It’s only if they hear a “foreign” accent that some might ask that. See the difference?

          • Zappa Frank

            I doubt someone will ask you where are you from if you are black in US. Than please, stop to use the ‘white’-‘non white’ and talk straight telling that you meant Asians. What’s the problem in asking an Asian where he is from? If is a city full of abc this question will be unlikely asked, if is a central town with few Asian this question will be more likely be asked, since many Asians are not long time immigrants but just out of the boat than I really don’t understand what so strange in asking.. They simply asking you if you are Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Viet, Thai or whatever… is it offensive? Sincerely I think here someone is thinking too much trying to look for other people faults… at least it is still better than any other country right?

          • Alex Dương

            I doubt someone will ask you where are you from if you are black in US.

            That’s also true. I didn’t say Asians because depending on ancestry, this problem may also apply to Hispanics. There are white and black Hispanics for whom this would not be a problem. Of course it would apply to Asian Hispanics, but I am also thinking of mixed Hispanics with substantial Amerindian heritage who “look Hispanic.”

            What’s the problem in asking an Asian where he is from?

            There’s no problem with that. The problem is the follow-up question: no, where are you really from? See the difference?

            They simply asking you if you are Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Viet, Thai or whatever… is it offensive?

            That’s what they mean to ask, but they are asking it the wrong way. For whatever reason, they think asking “what is your ancestry?” is more offensive than “no, where are you really from?” The latter is far more offensive, as it implies that we can’t really be from Montana, Pennsylvania, California, wherever we happen to be born.

            I think this is another instance where you are too eager to wave your hand and say “there’s no problem here.” No, I don’t think this is an example of pervasive racism in the U.S. Absolutely not. It’s very minor. But that doesn’t mean I should just let it slide. The mindset is fundamentally wrong; an Asian American can really be from Idaho, Wisconsin, Virginia, wherever. If someone’s curious about his ancestry, he should learn to ask the question the right way.

          • Zappa Frank

            probably the point is that some will think, for example:”ha, ok you are from idaho but not like us, we are really from this place, you are just arrived, you are a foreigner”…is this? Well i don’t know what to think since is america. With Boris we were talking about europe, and in europoe is obviously what people really think, you may be born in europe, but you are not a european… that’s doesn’t mean you cannot live in europe or that you have to back to your country, but people will always consider you african, asian or whatever. It will likely go on for decades or more, till will be normal be a different european (if ever).. in the end the same goes for everywhere, you may born and live in china, but that doesn’t make you chinese..

          • Alex Dương

            probably the point is that some will think, for example:”ha, ok you are from idaho but not like us, we are really from this place, you are just arrived, you are a foreigner”…is this?

            Yes, exactly. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants; less than 1% of the country identifies exclusively as Native American. So when those people think “we are really from this place,” are they really? Very likely they have ancestry from Germany, the British Isles, somewhere in Europe. This is the wrong mindset I am referring to.

          • David

            Well, they SHOULD! They are the ones to be careful of. lol

          • Roppi

            there you are Boris – I was starting to miss your informed opinions..seems you’re still on the same old chestnut..and now I understand better your hang ups..
            BTW – like Zappa Frank – I also do not see anything wrong in asking a person’s ethnicity – so long as it is done with courtesy and respect…
            To be fair – I’m guessing if you’ve always felt like an outsider then a question along these lines might be sensitive..

      • Alex

        Every time I hear about an Australian being racist, aggressive etc on the mainland I feel ashamed. You represent your country and when your overseas you have a duty to be friendly, well-behaved and to respect the customs of your destination country. For example taking your shoes of when going into a house OR not taking a crap mid-isle while in the midst of an international flight

        • Germandude

          Yes okay. I also get annoyed when I read about a German being racist. However, I know he doesn’t really represent the country since it’s quite different in Germany.

          What I think would do good to the image of Chinese and which would actually be in their own interest:

          1. A “bit” less of the crap “You don’t understand Chinese culture” combined with “We have 5000 years of history, you don’t”
          2. A “bit” less of “bathing” in the successes of compatriots with which they had nothing to do with.
          3. A “bit” more self-esteem and certainly much more self-confidence and knowing who/what you are.

          Combine those 3 with good manners abroad and see the currently bad impression of Chinese erazed. Don’t forget that Chinese are already regarded as quite nice people in Germany, because we have good impressions from Chinese and other Asian immigrants already.

          • Rick in China

            Lots of people like Chinese immigrants in Canada, also – but there is a clear distinction between the CBC and the FOBs. (Canadian born Chinese, vs. Fresh off the Boats). Nobody believes *manners* are tied to *ethnicities*…but they absolutely are tied with societies, and mainland China still has a lot of leftover peasantry pervading the masses. Jumping on the whole “don’t generalize! not all like this!” defense is just a stupid cop out full knowing nobody is implying everyone is like this to avoid talking about the issues.

          • Germandude

            Correct me if I am wrong: In Canada, CBCs are still considered immigrants then?

          • Rick in China

            Perhaps by some, not typically in my experience – at most would be immigrant families, not immigrants themselves – they’re *born in Canada*, how could anyone consider them immigrants *to* Canada….likely some ignorant people somewhere around that think like that, though.

          • Claude

            I have Chinese born Canadian friends who only speak the most basic Chinese to their parents. They only learned what little Chinese they know from growing up in a Chinese home and have never studied the language formally and appear to have no further interest in learning the language. Pretty Canadian trust me. One of my female friends ends all her sentences with eh? and riiight?.
            Like Rick said, only a ignorant bigot would consider them immigrants.

          • Probotector

            Agreed, but leftover peasantry? Come down here to Henan, you’ll see peasantry rampant and in full force.

          • Rick in China

            Haha.. “Come down here to Henan”

            No.

            :D

          • bujiebuke

            “defense is just a stupid cop out full knowing nobody is implying everyone is like this to avoid talking about the issues.”

            There are plenty of people on this site who will go one step further and suggest that bad behavior is genetically linked and use social Darwinism to explain Chinese society as a whole. Those are the people who deserve to get flamed.

          • Rick in China

            “bad behavior” may have very loose genetic linkage, although likely trumped heavily by nurture and environment, and even looser linkage as it relates to specific ethnicities and their propensities for specific behaviors…. but, to say genetics plays no role whatsoever is equally boneheaded and deserving of flame.

          • bujiebuke

            “but, to say genetics plays no role whatsoever is equally boneheaded and deserving of flame.”
            – you’d be correct if I actually wrote that.

          • Cameron

            Generally speaking . . . Chinese peasants/poor Chinese are much friendlier than people of many developed nations. Yeah, some of their hygiene habits leave something to be desired. But lets not forget their good sides – it’s easy to pick a group of people and focus exclusively on the negatives,

          • Rick in China

            Sure. Lots are kind. I’d object to the “generally speaking” “much friendlier than people of many developed nations” anecdotal and beyond-stretch statement, however, and this whole post and thread is *purely* about manners hygiene and habits – so why would you expect anything less in this thread?

            Do you really expect people to read this story and say, “but, many people like this are actually really nice! They’re great people! Just, they let their kids shit on plane seats.”

            Give me a break.

          • Kai

            That’s a straw man. “Don’t generalize” is less a “defense” than it is a “criticism” of the accusations/criticisms being made. It’s made not to “avoid talking about the issues” but to encourage people to talk about the issues in a more mature, responsible, and often rational way. Not all criticisms are the same, and fewer still are voiced the same way. If you genuinely care to talk about the issues and simply misspoke, you’ll happilly reword yourself so you make the point you intended without sabotaging yourself. If you don’t, then you’re not really interested in talking about the issues.

          • Dr Sun

            Kai kicking Ricks ass, love it

          • Kai

            While I appreciate the sentiment of agreement and support, this sort of shallow dog-piling isn’t something I encourage. I don’t like it when others do it to me so I don’t want people doing for me. An upvote or a comment sharing your position on the actual issues involved (not the people) would be enough and more meaningful. Thanks.

          • Dr Sun

            umm, shes still mine

          • diverdude7

            I’m going with Taser. That works ! and it is helluva a lot more entertaining than the in-flight movie!

            * darn computer. this was supposed to get posted as a reply to ‘what could the stew do about it’. I dunno if my computer is f’d up or if site not compatible w/ OSX.

          • David

            True, in American East Asians in general are thought of well by most people.

          • Cameron

            Cos like Germans would never bathe in the success (also known as “enjoy” or “take pride in”) of their World Cup … Which they had nothing to do with?

            Also while I’ve occasionally heard the line “you don’t understand Chinese culture”, often it is correct. It’s crazy how many long term expats in China don’t seem to understand how things work in China. Although admittedly, they sould put it more politely.

        • David

          True. I cringe when I read about an American (usually while drunk) doing something incredibly stupid on the mainland (especially if he is a teacher). Worse is if they do something criminal (I mean by Chinese law not like bribery which is expected and accepted). All of my Chinese friends swear to me they have never taken a shit in public (a few guys peed in alleys when drunk but nobody around, which is forgivable) and since they know me personally they do not condemn all Americans when they read of something bad (unless we support Japan’s claiming of a stupid fucking island in the middle of nowhere). All you can do is be the example you want others to see, not just in China, in life (especially if you have ids, they learn what they see).

          • mr.wiener

            We’ve all peed in alleys. Let him without pee in an alley in China throw the first stone.

          • Teacher in China

            Peeing in an alley is one thing. Peeing on the side of the road on the curb in broad daylight is another. Sigh….small town Dongbei, where the world is your toilet…

    • vincent_t

      The worst is that, you are not Chinese but look like Chinese. You feel irritated by that parents behavior but if you show it on your face people (both Chinese and other) start judging you, hey that is your people! Damn…

    • donscarletti

      Australia spends so much money building up a defense force because we are shit scared of Indonesia, but in reality, all we would have to do is not let idiots who want go to Bali get on the plane and the tensions would be solved. Have the state to pay the price difference to send them to Thailand instead, they’d have more fun and frankly, by the standards of most western tourists they wouldn’t stand out.

      • mr.wiener

        Not compared to the Russians they wouldn’t.

  • Don’t Believe the Hype

    I’m pretty sure only Chinese expats read the world journal so no need to be too embarrassed. Also, I love the comment “she as a single ethnic Chinese does not represent all ethnic Chinese.” If that kind of mentality was more common then we’d all be better off

    • a LES resident

      Maybe, but almost all the articles in World Journal are cribbed from the mainstream press, so I’m sure it appeared elsewhere

  • I am waiting for Kai or other China apologists to come and explain away that these are somehow isolated incidents, that I’ve overestimated the character of other nationalities/underestimated Chinese, and that these acts are somehow unrepresentative of most Chinese today, despite its pervasive occurrence in and outside of China.

    Sorry Kai, I’ve lived long enough in China (before) and travelled enough elsewhere to spot/smell/hear mainland Chinese from a mile away. Of course there cannot be a blanket condemnation of all Chinese, but we’re often speaking in generalities when it comes to these things. And even amongst mainland Chinese, there is a general sentiment that there are some ways to go before China can call itself truly civilized by contemporary norms. As RickInChina would put it, “these fucking peasants.”

    • Don’t Believe the Hype

      Seems harsh

      • Pooping in a plane seat is harsher.

        • bujiebuke

          You claimed that you didn’t reply to Kai and others because of your busy weekday schedule. Here you are trolling on a weekend when you should have been spending the time to pull yourself out of unemployment.

    • Rick in China

      HOW DARE you type up this comment before I could.

      :D

    • mr.wiener

      I thought I had already done the libatard dick~the~size~of~a~peanut China apologist posting?
      You seem to be handling the obligatory “Dees peoples are peasants” posting nicely.

      • Rick in China

        Someone needs to bring Balance to the Force, young skywalker!

        • mr.wiener

          Always 2 sith there are, One apprentice and one master :)

          • Probotector

            But which one are you, the master or the apprentice?

          • mr.wiener

            Comedic relief.
            And not all that funny either.Think Jar Jar Binks.

    • bujiebuke

      Basically your saying, “Chinese people are terrible, but wait, not all of them are bad. But I’m talking about generalities, so they’re bad after all”. Your paragraphs have a certain waft of shitty cowardice. Your one of those posters on ChinaSmack who thinks this site is a mirror for stormfront. At least TrickyRickyDickyinChina is more on point, usually. Troll more you lizard.

    • Probotector

      Don’t forget, he’ll say you’re prejudiced and intellectually dishonest for committing the cardinal sin of ‘generalising’.

      • mr.wiener

        Not sure about intellectual dishonesty, but it is certainly intellectual laziness.

        • Probotector

          Not if what you say is generally true.

          • mr.wiener

            Most generalisations have a grain of truth, but can’t be applied across the board. That’s why they are generalisations.

          • Probotector

            If I said “most Chinese parents/grandparents allow their kids to shit in public and don’t care how it affects others”, that’s a generalisation, but it’s also largely agreed to be true because many have seen it happen, so how is it wrong to say that? Making absurd generalisations, like most foreign teachers are rapists (Dr. Sun) is wrong because there’s virtually truth to it, only rare and isolated incidents to support such a claim. Conversely, most people’s issue with generalisations only occurs when the generalisation is negative. If I said, “nearly all Chinese women are beautiful”, I doubt there’d be much complaining or demands for me to ‘prove’ it, yet I’m still generalising.

          • mr.wiener

            B-b-b-but I’m not a Liberal, I swear!! I’ll go home right now and beat my wife…whilst wearing my NRA shirt…and I’m going to drive home in an SUV too!!

            Seriously it cracks me up when yous guys call each other Liberals and GOPs and stuff.In Oz the Conservative party are called the Liberal Party [I think it applied to trade unfettered by restrictions].
            I am a pinko mofo though…guilty as charged.

          • David

            lol

          • Probotector

            Um. I removed liberal from the comment, as I thought it wasn’t fair to label you in that way.

            I’m not American, so I don’t talk about the Grand Old Party or the National Rifle Association. It’s nice to see you generalising Conservtave Americans though. It seems hypocrisy is a trait of the mods here. Still, I’m glad you couldn’t counter my actual argument

          • mr.wiener

            Actually I’d kinda lost track of your argument。It seemed to be:
            You: I’m not generalising and what if I am ,I’m right anyway.
            Me: Yes you are,no you aren’t, and it’s naughty
            You: Liberal!
            Me: Guilty as charged, but that’s mr. left~wing wanker to you, Yanky boy.
            You: I’m not a Yank. stop generalising…

          • Probotector

            Maybe it was too hard for you. Speaking generally about groups of people is okay i you can support it. Nevertheless, many ppl (esp liberal westerners) hate it because prejudice is their primary issue in life. Moreover, these people only hate generalisations if they perceive them as negative.

            In any case, you stereotyped Conservative Americans with your statement “I’ll go home right now and beat my wife…whilst wearing my NRA shirt…and I’m going to drive home in an SUV too!!” after claiming “[a generalisation] is certainly intellectual laziness… [and] can’t be applied across the board.” How do you explain that hypocrisy?

          • mr.wiener

            That was an attempt at humor as I’m trying not to come over as too confrontatiomal here (a poor attempt I might add). Earlier this evening the mood on this thread was still fairly light. It has soured considerably since then.

          • bujiebuke

            Your replies exhibit the same kind of face-saving fallacy that you attribute to the Chinese. Are you sure you’re not a self-hating Han?

            Admit that your wrong and move on.

          • Probotector

            No I’m not a not a self-hating Han. What kind of a weak presumptive argument is that? I don’t believe that speaking in generalities is wrong if I can justify them, nor am I going to change my position just to make you happy.

          • Germandude

            It tells a lot when someone considers calling somebody a “liberal” as an insult…

            Limited horizon or pure ignorance displayed at its best…

          • Dr Sun

            Ultra right wing neo- n@*#s Nationalists and supremacists have always considered the term Liberal or as they like now libtard as the ultimate insult, next to race traitor.

          • Kai

            No, “Chinese parents/grandparents allow their kids to shit in public and don’t care how it affects others” could be a simple generalization. The moment you add “most”, your assertion has to be evaluated by whether or not that’s fair and true. It isn’t fair and true, because MOST Chinese parents/grandparents don’t do such a thing. You’re a victim of misleading vividness and confirmation bias. So are the people who eagerly agree with such a statement.

            I’d like to think you and those who agree with you recognize that the statement is actually false and unfair if you were to conscientiously think about it and be honest about it. However, you guys often think any objection to unfair generalizations is automatically a blanket denial of a phenomenon. You can’t be fair to the Chinese and you can’t be fair to the people who object to your unfairness. That’s just not cool. You misrepresent them, calling them “apologists” simply because they had the audacity to challenge the fairness of your generalizations. You conveniently forget how I challenge negative generalizations against non-Chinese targets and how I challenge positive generalizations that border on unfairly overestimating things or people.

            You are sloppy and careless with your words and comments, and when you get angry with people who rightfully take issue with your indulgences, you come across as feeling self-entitled to being sloppy and careless. You complain angrily about how others negatively generalize identities you associate with yet you do the same thing to others.

          • Probotector

            And you are pedantic and fascist when it comes to what you want to hear, crying like a bitch whenever people say something in a way you disagree with, and making ridiculously childish threats like “I’m gonna expose your comment history”.

            Your perception then, of anyone who makes a criticism, is that they have to be perfect, which is just simply not possible. This attitude is what’s wrong with liberal westerners (sorry, generalising again), in that all you care about is not causing offence or appearing prejudiced towards others, even if it means copping out of the argument all together and not tackling the real issues. If you don’t want negative criticism of China to occur, then perhaps you guys should seek to put less negative articles on the website every single goddamn day!

          • Kai

            Holy crap, as if you don’t object when people say something “in a way you disagree with”.

            I only point to your comment history when it substantiates my objections and criticisms of your behavior. “Childish” would be accusing you of things without proving it. I try to prove what I say.

            I don’t expect anyone to be perfect. There are lots of people on cS who make criticisms in imperfect ways that are still far more rational, reasonable, and fair compared to what you indulge yourself in. If you can criticize Chinese people for not living up to what other people can do, I can criticize you for the same thing. Don’t be a hypocrite when the criticisms come your way.

            LoL, you don’t take the real issues, you hover over the superficial arrogantly passing judgement. You chafe when others introduce “the real issues” because they undermine the categorical judgements and contempt you expressed. You chafe when people introduce nuance and insight into what gives rise to the phenomenon you want to casually lay at the feet of “being Chinese”. You care more for judging than for understanding. You’re not interested in “tacking the real issues”, you’re interested in shaming, in putting a target down, and in turn reinforce your own sense of inherent superiority.

            Your final argument is laughable. So your prejudiced, bigoted, dishonest behavior is the website’s fault? It’s the fault of a group of Chinese and non-Chinese people who try to honestly provide a glimpse into the popular and trending stories that Chinese netizens themselves are looking at and talking about? It’s the fault of the Chinese people that you can’t be rational, reasonable, and fair? You’re not going to take responsibility for using your brain, exercising critical thinking skills your Western educational background should’ve fostered in you, and reconciling what you see on cS with the bigger picture? It’s always someone else’s fault?

          • Probotector

            No I don’t object to the way people say things, just the content of their statement, if it’s not valid.

            Your definition is not the absolute definition of childish.

            Actually, I’ve tried to make my comments fairer these days since I’ve come back since April. If you perusal the forums (I know it’s inconvenient vis-a-vis raiding my comment history, but don’t be lazy) and look for my comments, you might see that. Today for instance:

            “Probotector • 7 hours ago

            It’s just an ignorance of etiquette and protocols observed in a Western nation, probably because they don’t exist in China, and many people in China will do things that are wrong or upsetting to others if they know they can get away with it. However, I’ve seen the incidents that this article describes occur in my country from many who are not Chinese, so they are phenomena that exist universally.”

            Or last week

            “Probotector • 5 days ago

            Well, he has a more impressive, and longer list of credentials than I gave him credit for. However, he still has an arrogant and narrow-minded mentality, and certainly a prejudiced disdain for anyone who’s not making a difference in China in the same way that he is.”

            Or beyond that

            Probotector • 11 days ago
            “Isn’t segregation illegal now, can’t they sue? America seems pretty fucked up when it comes to race then, even though your examples are from decades ago. Aren’t things better now?”

            Probotector • 11 days ago
            “Maybe they were just busy. San Francisco isn’t really a whites only town is it. In fact it’s a pretty liberal place. Did they say anything racist to you? I can’t say it’s impossible, but it seems pretty incredible. How long did you wait?”

            “Probotector • 12 days ago
            In supermarkets they often wait in line, it’s normally just the really old who cut in line there. Now if it’s a counter service like a desk or McDonalds, then it’s a cut in line free for all. I don’t know why they behave differently in that situation.”

            “Probotector • 13 days ago
            You know, I got so sick and tired of the usual Japan-hating rhetoric that I made an exam questionnaire for my students about their attitudes and opinions and I had a map of Japan and asked “what do you think of this place?”

            Now, once they realised it was in actually a map of Japan (seriously, some of them thought it as Korea), I got some surprising answers. Yeah, there were still the usual ‘tards moaning about the diaoyu islands and so forth, but a lot of students were talking about how advanced Japan’s economy and technology was and how they could learn from them. Some even said they wanted to go there to live. It seems there is hope yet.”

            But I guess you’ve become prejudiced against me.

            My last statement isn’t laughable, it’s laughable that you don’t expect criticism of Chinese society on a website that constantly posts articles that show China and the attitudes of it’s people the ‘netizens’ in a negative way.

            On the issue of banning, I’ve never tried to circumvent the ban. If you guys keep lifting it, that demonstrates your weakness not to uphold your own rules.

          • Kai

            Of course you object to the way people say things. Our current argument can be characterized as you objecting to the way I say things, pointing to “intellectually dishonest” and “prejudiced” and characterizing me as “PC”. Moreover, how a statement is made reflects the validity of the statement’s content.

            “Too many Chinese parents let their kids shit on the sidewalk.” = Valid.

            “Most Chinese parents let their kids shit on the sidewalk.” = Invalid.

            Yes, I’ve seen a few fairer comments from you. You’ll even notice I’ve upvoted them when I felt they were upvote worthy, which completely refutes your accusation that I’m prejudiced against you.

            You’ve demonstrated that you are capable of being more rational, reasonable, and fair. So why aren’t you more consistently? I can’t criticize you if you don’t give me enough ammo.

            My last statement isn’t laughable, it’s laughable that you don’t expect criticism of Chinese society on a website that constantly posts articles that show China and the attitudes of it’s people the ‘netizens’ in a negative way.

            This is also laughable. There is nothing I have said to suggest that I don’t expect criticism of Chinese society on this website. I myself make criticisms of Chinese society on this website. The mods all do. You are patently misrepresenting me with a straw man yet again. We have an entire FAQ page and Comment Policy dedicated addressing the generalized criticisms we expect. You are literally talking out of your ass here.

            On the issue of banning, I’ve never tried to circumvent the ban. If you guys keep lifting it, that demonstrates your weakness not to uphold your own rules.

            If you’ve never tried, then you can’t possibly have. Since you have, you did. Circumventing our bans is not hard but it isn’t so easy that someone can inadverntely stumble upon it.

            Sure, you can characterize our leniency in giving comment policy violators a second chance “weakness”. Are you asking us to be stronger?

          • Probotector

            I’ve dealt with the rest of your argument against me elsewhere. Glad we’re at least coming to some semblance of understanding. However, circumventing the band would mean changing my IP address. I’ve kept the same one since I first came on here, so “since you have, you did” is BS. In any case, it’s surely up to you how strongly you enforce your own rules, as long as they’re done fairly.

          • Kai

            No, you haven’t kept the same IP address since you first came here. These two comments alone have different IP addresses, and banning by IP address is not the only way a violator is banned. Do you give me permission to share what they are with everyone to prove my point that what I said is not “BS”?

            I’m REALLY hoping you are simply ignorant about how internet IP addresses work and not just shamelessly lying through your teeth. Each time you were banned, did you ever contact us to find out why or did you just go about circumventing it to see if we’d catch you?

          • Probotector

            For the last time, I’m not circumventing. To do that I’d have to create a whole new discus account and use a different IP address, as in, move to another location and sign in form there. No, I’m not doing that. Why are you making these accusations? I’ve been in the same location and in the same discus account all day, and everyday since I’ve been using the name Probotector. Perhaps there’s a problem with your information. No you can’t share my IP address.

          • Kai

            EDIT: I see your other comment now.

            I’m making these accusations because if you’re not circumventing, then why do you say you were banned two times? When were those two times?

            You do not need to move to another location and sign in from there to get a different IP address. If you didn’t know that, you do now.

          • mr.wiener

            How can you be liberal and a fascist?

          • Probotector

            Because modern liberalism has become a kind of fascism,
            the sort of “you can do it your own way, as long as it’s done just how I say” concept.

          • Kai

            Following the defeat of the Axis Powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word,[54] often referring to widely varying movements across the political spectrum.[55] George Orwell wrote in 1944 that “the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless … almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist'”.[55] Richard Griffiths said in 2005 that “fascism” is the “most misused, and over-used word, of our times”.[23]</blockquote

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(insult)

          • Probotector

            “George Orwell wrote in 1944 that “the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless”

            Amazing, he said that while Fascism as still running rampant in Europe and Asia! This is the author of Animal Farm, remember.

            It’s also weird that most of those over-using the term are the progressive liberals themselves.

            Even so, I’ve used it in a sense that the dictionary defines most concisely: Unfairly oppressive or needlessly strict. Again, you’re nitpicking.

          • Kai

            I’m not nitpicking, I’m putting your usage into context. Given how abused the word is…

            In this sense, the word fascist is intended to mean “oppressive”, “intolerant”, “chauvinist”, “genocidal”, “dictatorial”, “racist”, or “aggressive”—all concepts that are allegedly inspired by the ideology of actual fascism, and pervasive through fascist states.

            …I could use it on you as well. This makes the word pointless and ultimately a dishonest way to characterize someone else’s disagreements and criticisms of you. Instead of considering why you face disagreement and criticism, you instead feign being persecuted. You know who else does this?

            Chinese hypernationalists and apologists.

          • Dr Sun

            I have never, not once posted that most foreign teachers are rapists.
            Your retraction and apology is expected.

          • Surfeit

            We are, we are! We do it all the time! In the morning, in the night, we get our afternoon-delight. Creeping in, touching girls, offering sweeties never pearls. Stroke their hair, in their sleep, that laowai’s such a creep. She said no and we don’t care, WE’LL BE JIZZING EVERYWHERE!

          • Surfeit

            Na I’m just kidding. The Indians tho… They be rapey!

      • Kai

        Yes, you’re prejudiced and intellectually dishonest for how you unfairly generalize certain things and people.

        I’ve let the past few instances slide, but from this point on, each time you try dog-piling me, I’m going to remind everyone how you’ve made your comment history private to hide your history of prejudiced, bigoted comments.

        • Markus P

          People who hide comments have something to hide.
          Most of them who do that as you said have made stupid comments in the past. I’d say most of them are hypocrites.

          • Kai

            Yes. I comment under my real name and my comment history is public for all to see. As a result, I make efforts to recognize valid points when they are made and apologize when I realize I’m wrong. I take responsibility for my comments and for what they reflect about me.

            I understand there are legitimate reasons and circumstances where anonymity is desirable, so I don’t really care about people choosing to use nicknames as long as they don’t engage in sockpuppetry and other dishonesty.

            There are however very few if any legitimate reason to hide one’s comment history. If you said something you regret, why not be an adult and just say so? Why not just express some remorse and apologize for it? If you can’t do that, then disown the comment by anonymizing it. That’s not the most mature thing to do, but when someone goes so far as to suddenly hide their entire comment history because they realized others could point to it to justify their objections to their commenting behavior, it’s really hard to not conclude that person on some level knows they’ve commented objectionably in the past and instead of taking responsibility for it, they’ve have chosen to be dishonest about it. That’s human, but it’s still really disappointing.

          • Probotector

            Or some of us just don’t like being trolled because our views are unpopular.

          • Kai

            Dishonesty is using “trolled” in the plce of “criticized”.

        • Probotector

          Is that a threat? Will you then ban me for a third time for not playing by your rules? Geez, it’s just an internet forum dude, don’t be so butt hurt. Also, bigoted comments? I think I’ve only ever made one that ever qualifies as racist, and that was 2 years ago, which I later retracted an apologised for after superhappycow wouldn’t let it go. In any case, you turn a blind eye to your Asian brutha wuddyasack for his racist tirades against white people every time he comes on here.

          • Kai

            You come at me and you call me butthurt? Do you see me randomly snickering with others saying “I bet Probotector is going to say X”. I wasn’t the one name-dropping you nursing a grudge over past disagreements. Are you serious? Are you completely incapable of self-reflection?

            You’ve been banned three times already for comment policy violations, eh? Have you never considered that the reason you’ve been allowed to circumvent your bans is because we keep giving you second chances? By rights, if you were banned, you shouldn’t be allowed to create new identities to circumvent the ban. You’re telling me you consciously behave like an bigoted ass violating our comment policy, don’t apologize for it, and anyone who gets annoyed with this dishonest behavior of yours is being “butthurt”?

          • mr.wiener

            You think Wuddysack has never been banned?
            At the moment it looks you are trying to get banned.No threat, observation.

          • Probotector

            You tell me if he’s ever been banned. Normally, it seems his comments go without much criticism from you mods. Certainly his most recent ones have.

          • Kai

            Here’s are some of his most recent comments:

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/lost-childhoods-of-ethnic-yi-migrant-worker-children.html#comment-1492703776

            The Chinese government has failed its people miserably, but that doesn’t mean we can’t play our part.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/lost-childhoods-of-ethnic-yi-migrant-worker-children.html#comment-1492663977

            While the CCP certainly deserves criticism, those in glass houses should not throw stones.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/malaysia-airlines-mh17-shot-down-in-ukraine-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1491692027

            RIP to the victims and my heart goes out to the families. Everytime a disaster like this happens, I feel for their loss as they are living my greatest fear with so much gusto despite the pain. All victims who go through this deserve respect and a nations mourn their losses. Even if in different ways, grief is grief and what they are going through is too great for me to understand. I hope their loved ones can live in a world without suffering.

            Of course, there’s also idiotic shit like this one. Just because we can’t be bothered to criticize every single idiotic comment that gets posted on cS doesn’t mean there is bias.

    • Fredstar64

      >that these acts are somehow unrepresentative of most Chinese today,

      Well clearly judging by how many Chinese netizens expressed their disgust over this issue (if you read the article), and how most Chinese like myself finds this disgusting and will never even think of doing that in my life, I think it is fair to conclude that this incident does not represent most Chinese people today.

      > Sorry Kai, I’ve lived long enough in China (before) and travelled enough
      elsewhere to spot/smell/hear mainland Chinese from a mile away.

      If you believe that when a single Chinese child shits on a plane and it represents most Chinese people today, clearly you haven’t lived in China long enough and have no clear understanding of what modern Chinese people are like today.

      > but we’re often speaking in generalities when it comes to these things.

      Like you are doing right now, good thing that you acknowledge it though.

    • Guest

      >that these acts are somehow unrepresentative of most Chinese today,

      Well clearly judging by how many Chinese netizens expressed their disgust over this issue (if you read the article), and how most Chinese like myself finds this disgusting and will never even think of doing that in
      my life, I think it is fair to conclude that this incident does not
      represent most Chinese people today.

      > Sorry Kai, I’ve lived long enough in China (before) and travelled enough elsewhere to spot/smell/hear mainland Chinese from a mile away.

      If you believe that when a single Chinese child shits on a plane and it
      represents most Chinese people today, clearly you haven’t lived in China
      long enough and have no clear understanding of what modern Chinese
      people are like today.

      > but we’re often speaking in generalities when it comes to these things.

      Like you are doing right now, good thing that you acknowledge it though.

    • Kai

      The reason you think I’m an “apologist” is because you conveniently mistake me as denying that these things happen or fail to recognize “even amongst mainland Chinese, there is a general sentiment that there are some ways to go before China can call itself truly civilized by contemporary norms.”

      This is a straw man.

      I take issue when people take their generalizations too far, just as others do when they get lumped into generalizations others use. This does not make me an apologist. It makes me FAIR.

      A lot of (too many) Chinese people have habits that I find reprehensible, including this example of parents having their kid shit in the plane cabin instead of the restroom. There are many other instances of similar behavior. I have never ever challenged this.

      What I challenge is how far some people use such examples to generalize and damn the whole.

      How many Chinese passengers were on that plane? How many Chinese children and parents and grandparents? How many Chinese passengers of grandparents, parents, and children fly on planes each day? Are they all shitting in their seats? For every child you see shitting on the sidewalk, how many are shitting in toilets?

      No one is denying that we see “too many” Chinese people doing this, but there is such a thing as taking your contemptuous generalizations too far and declaring no other country’s citizens are ever worse than the Chinese. It is because you’ve repeatedly made such self-righteous, prejudiced generalizations that I disagree with you so often.

      “Truly civilized” people would not behave and comment as you do. Somewhere along the line, becoming civilized involved fostering a conscious sense of rationality and of expressing oneself in fair measure. You’re not like that. You’re like the Chinese netizens who seize minority examples of foreigners and use that to negatively and obnoxiously generalize foreigners.

      • Cameron

        Well said. China has its problems. Some of the poor behavior is simply down to the environment and nature of Chinese society.

        For example, if you wait in calmly in line to get your vegetables weighed at the supermarket you are literally going to be standing there for several hours. There’s no line, and there are too many people to make a line. Similar to when waiting for taxis at rush hour. you cant do “first come first take” when there are five thousand people trying to get a cab along 5km stretch of road. Okay, you could have cab stations, but where is the fun in that? You just have to get stuck in there.

        Of course, then sometimes people carry this behaviors over to unacceptable line cutting situations, which is when conflicts arise.

        • Kai

          Those things should all be fairly criticized and shamed so society can make progress towards more “civilized” (fair, efficient) norms. It’s happening, even between Chinese themselves, which is why a fair and honest eye will recognize that there have been improvements in such things over time.

          Few, if ANY, people deny that there are things worth criticizing and shaming. What people object to is when the criticizing and shaming becomes UNFAIR and IRRATIONAL.

          • 500,000,000 years of history

            Yes. Education and wealth are often disproportionate when wealth comes too easily.

      • Markus P

        You don’t need to answer to such stupid comments, foreigners often feel that many Chinese have a big dividing line between China and “wai guo” but on this website it is normally the westerners drawing up that line and putting all Chinese in the same box, even though they hate it when the same thing happens to them. Many of the stupid comments are made by people who share many of the same traits and the ridiculous mentality that they mock.

        • Kai

          It’s frustrating when they name-drop and misrepresent me. I’m vain like that.

          EDIT: Also, I’ve criticized whuddyasack and others for doing this to others, so it’s obviously going to irk me even more when it’s targeted at me.

          • Alexander

            Look, we all know that, and being fair goes both ways. There are idiots in every country, the big difference is what happens to the idiots. In Russia, you get beaten, in America you get fined hundreds of dollars and possibly put in handcuffs for awhile, in Singapore, you get beaten with a cane. Its not the idiots that are the problem, its that there is no Chinese security guard or policeman or like in American a annoying transportation security agent (TSA) which treats people like criminals. What we want is to see a Chinese Public Security Bureau Officer come running over the next time an idiot does these things and release a giant panda on the idiot to beat him or her until they cry like babies and profess their apologies to the general public for being so inconsiderate of others. Once that happens, then everyone will cut the generalizations out.

          • Kai

            The situations in this article were all in America (or on a Delta flight).

            When you paint differences so starkly, it distracts from the issue. What we “all know” is that idiots are not always punished everywhere, which is why people take to complaining and shaming them, often online. What we “all know” is that people also DO get punished in China. When we paint differences so starkly, it brings what we “all know” into question. So why not just avoid painting differences so starkly? It isn’t necessary to make valid points.

            What you want and need to hear from me is that I recognize that bad behavior OFTEN goes unpunished in China by what many of us expect to be the responsible authorities.

            If you want me to assume that you know there are idiots in every country AND that idiots in other countries often go unpunished just like idiots in China often do get punished, then I want you to assume that I know idiots in China often do NOT get punished.

            It goes both ways.

            I take the time to be very specific in what I write, to avoid gross generalizations, to acknowledge nuances and exceptions, to qualify what I say so I’m not inadvertently misrepresenting things. I never deny and in fact often proactively acknowledge the issues and problems in China.

            When other people do the same thing, I have no criticism of them, and great conversations and debates are had.

            Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own generalizations and the irrationality that gives rise to them. Would it make sense for me to generalize expats, foreigners, Westerners, white people, whatever and then say it is their fault and if they would behave better, then I “will cut the generalizations out”?

            No.

            So I disagree with your appeal and argument. I hope you can acknowledge the unfairness in it. Idiocy may beget idiocy but it does not justify idiocy.

          • Alexander

            psss…… lighten-up man, enjoy life….. have a beer…… going fishing……

          • Rick in China

            Let me take your obviously common tone and try it on for size.

            “He” obviously meant that because of the lax enforcement of regulation in China there are social constructs which ‘appear’ to be offensive and are aggressively dealt with in other societies. You can draw the argument in another direction as above, or deconstruct it legitimately which does not say, at all, anything about individuals and their respective generalizations. While you sprinkle truthes in your response, such as, “it all happened *in America*, this does not disqualify the (mainland) Chinese involvement or it would not be included in this website, nor in the Chinese webosphere in general.

            When people ‘play dumb’, as is expected of these parents in the seat-shitting fiasco, and give the “I don’t speak English” response, what is one to do? He (Alexander) was appropriately pointing out that for *most* people, not those who claim to be foreigners who don’t understand with the expectation of special treatment, should absolutely receive the direct and formal action that would be received by someone who obviously and directly understood the communication – in fairness. For example, do you truly and honestly believe that a white family from Alabama who clearly spoke (although maybe not clearly) English, and did the exact same thing, would receive the exact same treatment?

            Since you’re all about fairness, I’ll trust you will answer that question fairly rather than from your obvious bias to make all things (more) equal towards the “victims” here.

            Idiocy may beget idiocy but it does not justify idiocy.

          • Kai

            1. I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say for the first half of your second paragraph.

            2. I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue with the second half of your second paragraph. It would appear you think I’ve said something to “disqualify the (mainland) Chinese involvement)” but you don’t know what I’m referring to. Let me step you through this.

            Alexander wrote:

            Its not the idiots that are the problem, its that there is no Chinese security guard or policeman or like in American a annoying transportation security agent (TSA) which treats people like criminals. What we want is to see a Chinese Public Security Bureau Officer come running over the next time an idiot does these things and release a giant panda on the idiot to beat him or her until they cry like babies and profess their apologies to the general public for being so inconsiderate of others. Once that happens, then everyone will cut the generalizations out.

            Emphases mine.

            I understood Alexander to be saying if Chinese authorities cracked down harder and more consistently against misbehavior, then the people on this site guilty of unfair generalizations will cut their generalizations out. He’s saying, if Chinese people didn’t get away with their misbehavior so often, there would be less cause for certain people on cS to make the generalizations they do.

            He makes this argument in the context of the above story that involves three incidents all in America where there are not Chinese authorities around to crack down on them. Hence, I reminded him that these incidents were in America (or on a Delta flight).

            I know however that his point can still be applied in general, even if it might’ve been mistakenly made in a inaccurate context, which is why I address the general by first making a point about him “painting differences so starkly” and then writing:

            What you want and need to hear from me is that I recognize that bad behavior OFTEN goes unpunished in China by what many of us expect to be the responsible authorities.

            If you want me to assume that you know there are idiots in every country AND that idiots in other countries often go unpunished just like idiots in China often do get punished, then I want you to assume that I know idiots in China often do NOT get punished.

            It goes both ways.

            Emphases mine.

            He wants me to give those who make what I consider unfair generalizations that go too far the benefit of the doubt, when they he and others don’t give me the benefit of the doubt. It has to be mutual.

            Your remark about “included in this website, nor in the Chinese webosphere” suggests you did not understand what I was talking about.

            3. No idea what your third paragraph is going on about. It doesn’t sound like it is addressing anything I was saying.

            4. Yeah, I think you’ve misunderstood our exchange. If you want, you can try explaining how you interpreted Alexander and then my reply to him but I’ve read your comment a few times and I still can’t figure out where exactly you seized onto something about “fairness”, because when I said ” I hope you can acknowledge the unfairness in it”, I was referring to my hope that Alexander can see the “unfairness” in the generalizations some people make on cS that I am critical of.

      • Probotector

        “A lot of (too many) Chinese people have habits that I find reprehensible”

        Sounds like you’re generalising to me. How do you know it’s ‘too many’? How do you qualify or quantify such an assertion, bold and ‘offensive’ as it is? Have you seen enough Chinese people, recorded and catalogued their behaviour in a fair and controlled enough environment to justify such a assertion, or is it you’re just being ‘prejudiced’ and ‘a bigot’? See what I did there? But I guess it’s okay when you do it.

        “Truly civilized” people would not behave and comment as you do.

        No, only liberal cowards, or those with an agenda, like you don’t.

        • Kai

          Do I have to give you a semantics lesson? There’s a difference between “a lot, too many, and most”. Look up a dictionary.

          “Too many” reflects subjective opinion, not objective truth. It is “too many” to me. A single murder can be “too many” in a town that prides itself on lack of murder.

          Jesus Christ, there are tons of “courageous conservatives” who would also identify your commenting behavior as prejudiced and bigoted. Stop trying to rally others by labeling me a “liberal”. Commenting in a rational, reasonable, and fair manner is not some practice limited to “liberal” ideology. What the hell is wrong with you?

          • Probotector

            A subtle difference, yes, but you’re just nitpicking.

            “Too many” reflects subjective opinion, not objective truth. It is “too many” to me.”

            Exactly, so how do you qualify it? You have to justify it in some way. Well, actually, you don’t because it’s a commonly accepted fact. That was my point.

            I pigeon hole you as a liberal because you are throwing around terms like ‘bigoted’ and ‘dishonest’ simply to decry what you disagree with, and because of your incessant need to be PC with the wording of comments, because what you hate the most is prejudice, as if it’s the only problem on Earth! In so doing, you’re skirting the issue that there are indeed many things fucked up about Chinese society, and you silence talking about them by labeling criticism of China as prejudice. Furthermore, you turn a blind eye to racism from Asian nationalists against whites and the West and excuse away Chinese anti-American sentiment. These is the traits of a liberal apologist.

          • Kai

            Not remotely a subtle difference. Words have specific meanings and no one has ever died from being specific. Instead, they are appreciated.

            You don’t have to qualify “too many”, it qualifies itself by being an expression of subjective opinion that cannot be misinterpreted as an assertion of objective truth.

            “Most” however can be misinterpreted as an assertion of objective truth, especially when you then “qualify” it by using an appeal to popularity fallacy. Just because a lot of people accept something doesn’t make it a “fact”. A fact is supposed to be objective, not determined by how many people believe it.

            I don’t throw around bigoted and dishonest. When I make those accusations, I explain why I feel something is bigoted and dishonest. For example, you are dishonest by accusing me of “throwing around” such terms simply to “decry what I disagree with”. I decry what I disagree with AND argue why I disagree. I disagree with things you’ve said BECAUSE they are bigoted and prejudiced. I’m not merely calling you names, I point to WHY it applies.

            You are unconvinced that my arguments have merit, that what I accuse you is true, or you may just be reluctant to admit it and take responsibility like a mature adult to save face. You are not the only person who does this. You are not unique, and that’s why we are ultimately judged by others based on the persuasiveness of the arguments and defenses involved and not merely by what we want them to think of us.

            What you demonize as “PC”, I consider being “rational, reasonable, and fair”. You want to be “un-PC” within your cadre of like-minded people, go for it, but this is a public forum where there are tons of people who don’t deserve the prejudiced and bigoted comments you think you are entitled to throw out with obnoxious consistency. If you don’t want to be called out and rightfully censured for the carelessness and insensitivity you display when expressing your “opinions”, don’t do it in public and instead find a closed circle of yes-men. It’s incredibly obnoxious to feign being persecuted for your public behavior, just like how some Chinese people think they’re being persecuted when someone criticizes something they did publicly. You understand this when the target of criticism is the Chinese, but you can’t see it applied to yourself?

            I don’t see prejudice as the only problem on earth. Again, straw man. Yes, you’re employing a hyperbole, but the underlying sentiment is still a straw man. I care about prejudice on cS precisely because it is an intersection between Chinese people and others. If Fauna has the maturity and humility to endure “Chinese traitor” accusations and threats in order to present an honest glimpse of Chinese internet culture and society to the outside world in hopes that such honesty and humility can bring Chinese closer to others and vice versa, you can have the humility and maturity to not be a prejudiced, bigoted person. That you behave the way you do is not unique or unusual. There are more than enough Chinese netizens who are your counterpart. But if you want to present yourself as better than these Chinese netizens, you should not behave in similar ways.

            I’ve never skirted the issue that there are indeed many thinks fucked up about Chinese society. Again, straw man. I have always been very forthright and open that Chinese society has a lot of issues.

            I don’t label “criticism of China” as “prejudice”, I label “prejudiced criticism of China” as “prejudice”. Again, straw man. There are tons of criticisms of China that I don’t label “prejudiced” so it isn’t just criticism itself.

            I also don’t turn a blind eye to racism from Asian nationalists. Again, yet another straw man. I think you yourself was once reminded by another commenter that I castigated whuddyasack for his anti-white bigotry. How quickly you’ve forgotten. You have zero idea how many comments I’ve deleted or not approved by Asian nationalist trolls. You have no idea how many times I’ve then been accused of turning a blind eye to anti-Chinese racism. There is an objective record calld my “comment history” that substantiates this refutation of your accusations. I just recently criticized Dr. Sun for his anti-ESL teacher prejudice. Conveniently missed for forgotten that too, eh?

            You are dishonest because you make these unfounded accusations. You straw man my objections to your behavior as me being biased for China/Chinese and biased against whites/the West. Please go ahead and find evidence from my comment history to substantiate these accusations. My comment history is public. I have complete confidence in what I’ve said because I’m generally very conscientious about being reasonable, rational, and fair and I’m not afraid to apologize for my mistakes.

          • Probotector

            In which case, we can (once again) agree to disagree. Neither one of us is going to change the other in the way we want, unless you play the trump card of banning me.

          • Kai

            I’m not going to ban you unless you violate our comment policy. Do you think you’re violating the comment policy? You’ve admitted to circumventing our past bans so we technically have justification to, but if all you’re going to do is express your opinion, then I’ll be content to express my disagreements when I have them.

          • Probotector

            I can’t circumvent a ban if it’s been lifted. I explained this elsewhere.

          • Kai

            Except you have no idea if it has been “lifted”. You being able to post could mean your ban was lifted or it could mean you’ve somehow circumvented it. What exactly is your compelling process for determining that you were banned and it was then “lifted”? You’d have to know how you were banned, but you don’t. Why are you arguing with me on this? Did you get an email from us telling you the ban on you has been lifted? Just because we give you a second chance (multiple second chances apparently) and turn a blind eye to your circumvention, does that mean we’ve lifted the ban on you? No, it doesn’t.

          • Probotector

            No, it’s just 2 times I’ve been banned, or at least it seems that way. Twice before, I was unable to post comments on this site via discus or the old system you used before, the system itself was blocking me. The first time I was using a different name, but was on the same IP address, and it was because I defended Fraser Stewart from being banned 2 years ago. The other time was after I made this comment:

            Probotector • 3 months ago
            “For those of you that have known me of old, I am devastated to inform you that my unborn daughter died yesterday. There was an abruption of the placenta and she drowned in the amniotic fluid. There were only four weeks left until she was due to be born. This will be my final comment on chinasmack.”

            I tried to comment again in June, and was told by discus I’m not authorised to comment on this site. The only way I know it’s been lifted (both times) is because I was suddenly start commenting again a week later. I never received an email from you or CS either time. The second time, it could have been a glitch in the system, which figures, since you believe I’ve been using different IPs today, which I have not. This could then be a misunderstanding.

            Anyway

            “Just because we give you a second chance (multiple second chances apparently) and turn a blind eye to your circumvention, does that mean we’ve lifted the ban on you? No, it doesn’t.”

            ROFLMAO! Well I’m still here aren’t I? if you haven’t lifted the ban, and I’ve been commenting for 2 years, why don’t you do more to enforce it?! Are you guys that incompetent? Don’t you keep a blacklist of who you’ve banned? Can you actually tell me if I ever have been officially banned, or has this all been a misunderstanding?

          • Kai

            1. You don’t know how IP addresses work.

            2. Different name, yes. Care to share what that name is? Are you sure you were banned for “defending Fraser Stewart”? Did you ever inquire?

            3. If you’re certain you were banned, you could’ve certainly gotten back on cS after we switched to Disqus because all of the old bans were disregarded by the new system. If you knew you were banned but still commented, that’s still circumventing moderation.

            You were not banned after that comment. Why would anyone ban you for that comment? Like every moderation system, Disqus has false positives. The most common are because people are on IP addresses that have been flagged for spam or comment policy violations. Every so often we get an email from someone inquiring about not being able to comment and I help them diagnose and resolve the issue after a quick check to see if anything about them is actually in our blacklist. Your Probotector account is not in our blacklist as evidenced by you being able to comment. They almost always just happen to be on an IP that is flagged and there are a lot of ways this happens (VPNs, proxies, dynamic IP address assignments by ISPs, etc.).

            Why didn’t you contact us to inquire? Guilty conscience much? Did you feel like there was a reason you would’ve been banned? Why did you assume it?

            If you were able to comment a week later, you most certainly weren’t banned then because like I said, circumventing our bans is not hard but also not that easy to stumble upon. Next time, please ask instead of just assume.

            Being able to comment doesn’t mean you weren’t banned, it just means you’ve somehow gotten around it, perhaps even inadvertently but extremely unlikely given the many factors involved required to circumvent our bans. You’ve demonstrated you don’t quite understand how bans work or how IP addresses work so I think you’ve accused us of banning you based on mistaken assumption.

          • Dr Sun

            If you ban the trolls Kai there won’t be many of us left on here and no-one to play with.

          • F05

            This website posts hot, provocative stories that incite heated, provocative responses. I wouldnt expect cool levelheaded responses to such shocking news on the internet.

          • Kai

            Encouraging cool level-headed responses and discouraging heated, provocative responses does not mean I expect one and not the other.

      • bujiebuke

        I had a discussion with another member once about disillusioned western expats who were mentally unprepared when it came time for them to live in China. Reptilian is a perfect example of someone who moved out of his comfort zone and was shocked that living in an emerging country is very different from his accustomed western lifestyle.

        They go to China with expectations of exotic food, culture, and women but come out frustrated and angry when things don’t go their way. Instead of learning the language, culture, and history, they shut themselves in a box and come up with these poor excuses as to why they had such a bad experience.

        My suggestion to anyone who’s considering living in China for a few years is to do your research. At the minimum, learn the language and connect with people who can help your stay an enjoyable one. If you can’t do these things for any reason, then I would suggest looking at a western European country.

        • Surfeit

          That’s a well defined series of assumptions.

          • bujiebuke

            I’m giving sound advice to an audience that have an interest in going to China, this website attracts a lot of people who are curious on that subject. My goal is to ameliorate the culture shock westerners experience and also to prevent them from becoming the bitter slack-jawed expats who infest this site.

          • Surfeit

            I mean assumptions about Reptilian. I totally get the gist of the behaviour and problems you recognised, but I don’t think it’s possible to be so certain those things represent Reptilian’s nature, character, and/or outlook.

            Maybe you know him well already. That’s beyond my scope right now.

          • Actually, the only bitter ones on this site are anatomically deficient men like you, who are left slack-jawed after being passed over by other Asian women despite the parvenu bling you display. It’s unfair, but laowai men actually generally have it very good in China, to the point that I’m embarrassed why I seem to be getting the occasional special treatment just because I look different. I’m sure other laowai will be able to relate. So no, no bitter, slack-jawed expats I can see here. Just onion-skinned wieners who make it a point to bash others from psychological inferiority.

            Oh, and what a noble goal you have—to save the clueless, bumbling expat from culture shock when in China. Thanks, but no thanks. No armchair expert’s advice will do anyone any favors when visiting China. China is experienced by jumping head-on into the cross-currents of a modern society emerging from an ancient one, sans any brand-name hotel chains or translator/guides. Save your expertise for the tabloid columns you’re going to write (see above post). Lowlife.

          • Kai

            Dude, its comments and responses like this from you that really undermine your credibility in my eyes despite intelligent things you’ve said at other times. If you disagree with something, argue it but avoid indulging in a bunch of petty, childish ad hominems about dick sizes or whatever. Seriously, man, no matter how much you think others are doing it to you, you doing it back makes you no better.

            You’re supposed to prove your critics wrong, not prove them right or give them other things to dismiss you with. You’re sabotaging yourself.

          • Surfeit

            Kai, I agree with your post but is somewhat unfair; BJB did describe Reptilian as an ignoramus with poor character and no foresight, and then go on to describe him as aimless and stupid after he responded (as calmly as one might *imo) to the initial insults.

          • Kai

            Reptilian would understand that this comment of mine is related to what what I said in another conversation with him. I also said “no matter how much you think others are doing it to you, you doing it back makes you no better”, and he would (should?) understand that, and that it also is reinforcing a point I made in that other conversation.

            If we want to go by “who started it”, BJB could argue that Reptilian did with his initial post, which is what BJB responded to. Overall, I don’t think I’m being somewhat unfair here as long as Reptilian reads my previous response to him before he reads this one. As long as he does that, he’ll understand what I’m referring to.

          • Surfeit

            I wan’t trying to suggest ‘who started it’. Just that it’s unfair to criticise one persons word choice when words are being thrown around so easily by both sides.

          • Kai

            I don’t think it’s just word choice though. It’s the mentality of not being the bigger man and lowering oneself to petty and pettier insults.

            Reptilian made an inflammatory comment attacking me as a China apologist. BJB replied by accusing him of being a disillusioned expat. Reptilian races to the bottom by then making petty insults about penis size and “success with Asian women”. I think Reptilian’s pettiness of insult is qualitatively higher than BJB’s here, even if we ignore the fact that my response to Reptilian was specifically in the context of another conversation as well. Even if my comment wasn’t made to reinforce my point elsewhere, I’d still criticize Reptilian as being more petty than BJB in terms of insults resorted to.

            There’s name calling throughout all of this. Reptilian called me a China apologist. I’d love to see him find comments of mine to substantiate such a claim when so many of my comments are completely at odds with being one. BJB calls Reptilian a disillusioned expat and I think there are lots of comments of his where he arguably fits that bill. Can Reptilian find enough comments by BJB that demonstrate he has a small penis and an inferiority complex? Or is that just an petty insult in response to criticism and disagreement? Would it be valid for me to have responded to Reptilian by saying he has a small penis and an inferiority complex?

            Come on, dude, there’s some pretty obvious qualitative differences here.

            “He’s an apologist!”
            “He’s a disillusioned expat!”
            “You have a small penis!”

            The former two can be judged by people’s past comments. The third can’t be judged without some very secure male show and tell. BJB was assumptive about Reptilian but no worse than Reptilian’s misrepresentations of me and “China apologists”. Reptilian is way more assumptive by taking it to “Chinese men have small penises and are just jealous of us taking their women” territory. I think I’m being pretty fair in my characterization of the bad arguments here.

          • Surfeit

            I hear what you’re saying. I really do. If BJB had stopped at ‘disillusioned expat’ I’d be inclined to agree with you, but he didn’t. He assumed Reptilian came to China for women, didn’t learn the language or the culture, and ultimately that he failed to connect with people and that’s why he’s making statements that he is.

            That’s as much guess work to me as estimating someones penis size. Especially from my point of view, as in this case BJB assumed Reptilian made a broad sweeping comment about all Chinese people, which I don’t believe he did. I don’t know about Reptilians past comments, but I don’t think that excuses (dare I say it) slanderous overtones on BJBs part, and criticism of Reptilians poor reaction to that.

            It’s just a different perspective. It did escalate pretty damn quick, and I’m not really familiar with the characters involved. Just my 6pence worth! Aye.

          • Kai

            Yes, I agree he was being assumptive/presumptive, and that’s why I said his was no worse than Reptilian’s. Hell, accusing him of being a “disillusioned expat” itself was assumptive already without the rest, similar to calling people “China apologists”.

            Personally though, lol, I think those specific accusations are not quite down there to penis size and “taking yo’ wimminz”. But I understand and agree with your point in principle that both were more personally insulting than just criticizing. While BJB framed it as general advice, he did specifically reply to Reptilian and name drop him as an example, just like how Reptilian name dropped me.

            I want to say I already made this point elsewhere but Reptilian’s comment specifically made a broad sweeping comment about “China apologists” for historically objecting to those whom they feel are making broad sweeping comments about Chinese people. He took this as an opportunity to “prove” the “China apologists” wrong and those who were making broad sweeping comments “right”.

            The reason I and others pushed back is because he completely misrepresented the situation. Those who most reliably and most consistently objected in the past, like myself, did so not because we deny that this phenomenon exists, but because the comments made by others are too broad and sweeping as to cross over into being unfair and prejudiced.

            Reptilian should know this, because he’s objected to comments directed at others (whom he associates/identifies with) that he thinks are too broad and sweeping, but in this issue against this target, he straw mans those objecting. That was wrong of him.

          • ex-expat

            When you say “dick” size, are you referring to when he said “onion-skinned dicks?” If so, I don’t think that is what he meant. I interpreted that to mean something like a thin-skinned dickhead.

          • Kai

            It is when paired with his opening salvo:

            Actually, the only bitter ones on this site are anatomically deficient men like you

          • ex-expat

            Oh. That, I didn’t see.

          • Kai

            Hah, yeah, but “onion-skinned dicks” is pretty unique as far as insults about dicks go.

          • bujiebuke

            My criticism against that fiend was reserved and justified.

          • Surfeit

            I understand the grievance, but you didn’t criticise, you insulted. I’m not interested in debating the justification of that.

          • bujiebuke

            fair enough

          • donscarletti

            He both criticised and insulted. Insults are often critical and criticism is often insulting. There is no dichotomy.

            Though by and large his advice was pretty on the money. If you want to be happy somewhere, then you should learn to fit in. Speak the language, make local friends, understand people’s cultural expectations well enough to communicate your own.
            The only issue is that I think a lot of expats actually want to be isolated and culturally distant, which is what they like about China and why they come. I think China to many westerners is a place where one can have an income, eat, sleep, drink and satisfy one’s sexual needs without emotional interaction.

            There is this sort of natural wall that naturally occurs because of the language and culture difference. It also does not require much more than an occasional outburst to keep Chinese from attempting to cross it. You can protect whatever you want behind this wall, your pride, your emotional detachment, your unusual lifestyle. So expats often are the people who desire this protection above all.

          • Kai

            Wow, that’s a profoundly dark comment. It’s actually really quite unsettling to think about.

          • Dr Sun

            Are you saying bujiebuke is a lesbian ?

            “who are left slack-jawed after being passed over by other Asian women”

            Pics.. proof we demand your evidence Reptilian.

          • bujiebuke

            So your response to my avalanche of criticism against you is: “I has bigger dick than you”. Good luck with life, you’ll need it.

        • Zappa Frank

          learn the language is not exactly an easy task…or you meant learn a minimum of language?

          • bujiebuke

            There are certain level of proficiencies with any language. I would consider “learn the language” as the ability to carry out simple conversations with the native population. Your correct to point out its not easy. But it would be even more difficult living in a foreign land not being able to effectively communicate.

        • Probotector

          So by implication, you’re saying that kids shitting in public should be tolerated and accepted because China’s an ’emerging country’? Moreover, what does his post have to do with not knowing the language and culture? You’re implying that anyone with a negative view of Chinese society must be an ignoramus, despite knowing not thing about Reptilian himself. We can all agree that more Chinese people than we’d like exhibit reprehensible behaviour. Stop making excuses for where Chinese society has shortcomings, and accept the reality that these shortcomings exist and need to be overcome.

          • bujiebuke

            I’m not making excuses. Reptilian was condemning an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. Someone with even a low reading comprehension can see that he has clear reservations with mainland Chinese:” to spot/smell/hear mainland Chinese”.

            You and a few others on this site grasp at any sensational news and write how it applies to all Chinese, then make some lame comment like “fuck those peasants”. I have wondered why people like Reptilian decided to stay in a country that he finds so repulsive for so long. Perhaps you can chime in.

            I’m not saying we need to cut these people some slack. Reptilians vitriol was clearly aimed at Chinese as a whole. What I find most interesting is that the little coward has yet to respond to any criticism. He should at least respond to Kai.

          • Alex Dương

            What I find most interesting is that the little coward has yet to respond to any criticism.

            That’s more-or-less Reptilian’s M.O.: he says something as if it’s an obvious truth not up for debate, and if you try discussing with him, he’ll either outright refuse or quickly try to bail out and save face with “you can have the last word.”

          • Probotector

            Reptilian wrote “of course there cannot be a blanket condemnation of all Chinese, but we’re often speaking in generalities when it comes to these things.”

            How is that condemnation of an entire group?

            I replied to you that “We can all agree that more Chinese people than we’d like exhibit reprehensible behaviour”. Again how is that criticising ALL Chinese? Those of us who criticise China are aware that it’s not everyone who is to blame, or guilty of wrong doing, but more often than not we feel it’s the majority of people here who are.

            Obviously you feel that any criticism of China (and probably other nationalities too) is a blanket attack on them all, even when such criticism is clearly worded to explain that it is not.

            Look, if you want to condemn blanket statements against entire races and nationalities, go look at what whuddyasack types about ‘all white people’ on this forum.

          • bujiebuke

            Nice try, but cherry picking statements will only win points with your fellow philistines.

            I’m glad you brought up the subject of whuddyasack. Here’s a member that I have not seen posting in months and I can’t even recall the things he’s written in the past. You on the other hand, have mentioned this member every time someone calls you out on your bigotry.

            Just what is your obsession with whuddyasack?

          • Probotector

            It’s not cherry picking on my part, it’s selective memory or selective reading on yours.

            Read the story about bad food served at KFC, you’ll see w’sack’s comments. I’m not obsessed with him, but he’s the quintessential example of someone who makes absolute statements based solely on race.

          • bujiebuke

            So your point then: Whaddysack says batshit crazy stuff, therefore so can you.

          • Probotector

            No. What are you talking about? You’re saying that me and Reptilian are making absolute statements about China, when we’re not. W’sack is an example of someone who is. The only one making crazy statements is you.

          • Dr Sun

            Do you see the irony ?

            Reptilian wrote “of course there cannot be a blanket condemnation of all Chinese, but we’re often speaking in generalities when it comes to these things.”

            Probotector wrote “How is that condemnation of an entire group?”

            Please tell us probotecter that you command of and understanding of the English language isn’t so infant school.

            Talking and writing in general terms about 1.3 billion with the pretence that a behaviour demonstrated by a few, that you dislike represents all, the nation, the race , is naive to say the least.

          • Probotector

            What? Are you and bujiebuke just totally unable to comprehend what you read? Reptilian said you can’t make blanket condemnation. That means 100%, all, absolutely everyone. He’s talking about China in the general/typical sense. Therefore he’s not condemning an entire group, only the majority. Now, is that correct to do? Well, he’d have to justify it somehow, and I doubt he’s seen most Chinese people out of the entire population. Nevertheless, there are certain trends in any given society, including China, and kids being taught by parents/grandparents to publicly relieve themselves, is one of them.

            In any case, would you say that most Chinese parents/grandparents in China believe it’s acceptable allow their kids/grand kids to defecate in public, or not, considering how commonplace this practice/phenomenon is in China?

          • Dr Sun

            no I would not say its acceptable or commonplace.

          • Sorry for the late reply, bukkake, but I already replied to Kai above. I’ve made it a point to reply to any Disqus posts only once a week, on the weekends. There are a million other things to do during the workweek, and ChinaSmack can get quite addictive with bungholes like you.

            I find your presumptions about me quite amusing, even if you don’t know me or my history in China. You might have a bright future as a pulp fictionist, or a reporter for News of the World.

          • Roppi

            like your work Reptilian- bukkake..:)))

        • It actually took me less than a month to adjust to China. How presumptuous of you to think I expected exotic food, women and a red carpet treatment. My life in China started from living in frigid dorms with faulty boilers in winter, figuring out how to backpack across several provinces, until I ended up working at local and multinational companies. Not one word of complaint out of me. I did not grow up privileged, so who was I to expect differently in China? Every experience was a nugget of wisdom. No mentor can teach you about life the way life itself teaches you.

          And yes, I took my Chinese lessons to heart, and can confidently use my Chinese today. Beijing accent, check. The ability to suss out putonghua from high-pitched Sichuanese? Check. No taking advantage of women, even if they seemed overeager to be “language partners”–check. Know how to talk your way out of an aggressive Public Security officer asking why you don’t have your passport with you, check. So yeah, I acclimatized very well.

          But does that preclude me from criticizing the bad manners of mainlanders? No. Fµck your stupid advice to do research before going to China. Learn China by jumping in with both feet. No guidebooks or travel blogs will prepare you for zhongguo. Just keep your wits and humor about you, and you’ll generally be fine.

          • bujiebuke

            I see you’ve finally slither out of that dark hole.

            “Fµck your stupid advice to do research before going to China. Learn China by jumping in with both feet. No guidebooks or travel blogs will prepare you for zhongguo.”

            – This is what I’m talking about right here. You basically did in fact follow what I prescribed – taking language lessons. Yet your telling everyone else to jump in with both feet. Nothing I’ve said about you so far is wrong.

            There’s nothing wrong with criticizing China. It’s when aimless yuppies like yourself begin to apply the actions of a few to the whole that I find disingenuous.

          • Nothing you’ve assumed about me was right at all. Tell me, what do you know about me?

            I jumped into China without intending to live there, without intending to learn Chinese, but that’s what I ended up doing because those were the paths I chose when opportunities presented themselves.

            Aimless yuppies, what a laugher. If I were as aimless as you, I would’ve replied days ago. Happy weekend, Mr Bukkake.

          • bujiebuke

            “I jumped into China without intending to live there, without intending to learn Chinese, but that’s what I ended up doing”

            – I think most people would agree that was a fairly random, stupid, and aimless decision on your part.

            ” Happy weekend, Mr Bukkake”

            – Oh good god, don’t tell me your somehow related to Fred Fong. That would make too much sense.

          • Surfeit

            I don’t think he did ‘apply the actions of a few to the whole’. My understanding was, not all Chinese do this, but from certain actions/behaviours you can tell that certain people are mainland Chinese.

        • Pun Tang

          Sounds like every Chinatown in the world

          • bujiebuke

            and your point is?

      • Doge Wallace

        Haha Reptilian

      • Okay, I think we’ve concentrated too much on the child pooping on a plane incident too much. If these social faux pas are numerous enough for the China National Tourism Administration to issue several travel guidelines for Chinese travelling overseas, can we agree that the problems of civility are pervasive enough among the general populace? Tell me, how many countries’ citizens have you heard of being labeled as uncouth as mainland Chinese in the past 20 years? Let’s keep the time frame limited, because, one, we’re talking about the present China; two, if we go back too much in history, we’ll start to have pot-kettle-black situation (because every society has gone through that stage where they were basically walking embarrassments everywhere). Do you remember any other country with this situation?

        Did the Ugly Americans or the Ugly Japanese/Taiwanese ever let their kids poop in public places, fake marriage certificates just to get discounts, use toilet bowls squat-style (and leave shoe prints), spit, litter and shove to the degree that mainlanders do today? These are not isolated incidents, and they happen not infrequently, hence the culture clash between mainlanders and HKers. It has happened way too many times to just turn a blind eye to. I think we can agree on that, yes?

        And of course it’s not just HK, but every tourist hotspot you can imagine—Thailand, Malaysia, Maldives, Australia, and other cities in the West. The criticisms vary little from place to place, and yet all you can say is I’ve “damned the whole”? Did I not include a qualifier that there shouldn’t be blanket condemnation? You yourself said there are “too many Chinese people” doing this. So just how many is tolerable, and how many before even you would allow people to state the obvious?

        These are Chinese who are moneyed enough to travel that we are discussing; how much more those that mainlanders themselves consider bumpkins? Have you ever lived in and traveled around China? In a previous life, I have. From hard seater trains, suicidal trikes, overstuffed mian bao sauna vans, rickety provincial buses, subways, to business class in airplanes, you can see plenty of the same me-first attitudes from mainland Chinese. Anywhere there is a queue—spit, quarrel, shove. Can I really be said to be painting mainland Chinese today with a broad brush, or is it more the case that you refuse to acknowledge that China is still at the stage in its development where social etiquette has a long way to go before being imbibed by the general public?

        If I took these experiences together with what I hear from mainland Chinese (I’m fluent in Mandarin—an excellent way to eavesdrop on whatever they’re saying, thinking I can’t understand), I think it’s fair to say that the sample size I have from my experiences is large enough for me to say that there is a serious social etiquette problem with mainlanders in general. Further, if I were not a laowai, if my name were something like Xu Wenrong and I made the comments above on Sina, would you have even batted an eyelash? Please answer that question honestly. You can keep the answer to yourself if you wish.

        Like you, I also take issue when people take generalizations into prejudice territory. But I’m not prejudiced against Chinese as a whole. I put Chinese people among the most hardworking people in the world, with a high threshold for pain and sacrifice that I cannot imagine myself having. But I also firmly believe, basing on my relatively well-travelled life, that I have yet to see a country whose citizens misbehave on a wider scale at home and abroad than mainlanders. (I make this distinction obviously because Taiwanese, HKers are not like that).

        And it is not only tourists. We can digress briefly into the business world and see how the Chinese ambassador to Tanzania recently decried how his countrymen were ruining China’s image by smuggling ivory and rhino tusks, running illegal mines and bidding for public works projects with tofu-quality cement. Rinse and repeat for Ethiopia, South Sudan, Angola and countries with substantial Chinese presence. If you are tempted to point to previous Western colonialists rampaging in Africa, please stop yourself. Western pillaging of African ivory before does not make it right for China to do it today. It does not make it right. It only means there have been two mistakes committed: one by Western colonial powers, the other by Chinese traders today.

        Thanks for your reply, Kai. Even though we do disagree on a fundamental level, I respect the fact that you don’t flame and can debate intelligently. You do sound like a fair person, and I look forward to disagreeing (or agreeing?) with you in the future. :-)

        • Kai

          can we agree that the problems of civility are pervasive enough among the general populace?

          We don’t have to agree to this because it was never a disagreement in the first place. What I don’t agree with is unfair to malicious generalizations, too often conveying nothing of import except one’s contemptuous prejudice.

          Tell me, how many countries’ citizens have you heard of being labeled as uncouth as mainland Chinese in the past 20 years?

          Uh, a whole shit ton, often from Latin America to Eastern Europe to the Middle East to South East Asia to plenty of developing, undeveloped, or otherwise impoverished “third world” or “second world” countries. Even “first world” Americans get labeled uncouth by certain people from certain industries.

          But that is completely irrelevant. The popularity of a sentiment does not make a sentiment justified, much less indefensible expressions of that sentiment. Just because a lot of people at one point in time generalized certain things about black people doesn’t make those generalizations right. Just because a lot of people at present generalize certain things about Mexicans doesn’t make those generalizations right either. And so on.

          These are not isolated incidents, and they happen not infrequently, hence the culture clash between mainlanders and HKers. It has happened way too many times to just turn a blind eye to. I think we can agree on that, yes?

          You are still arguing as if I am demanding that people turn a blind eye to it. No, I’m asking people to not say stupid shit when they turn a critical eye to these phenomenon. Can we agree to that?

          If we can, then please, no more arguments from you against this straw man.

          The criticisms vary little from place to place, and yet all you can say is I’ve “damned the whole”?

          No, that is not all I can say as evidenced by the fact that I said a lot of things. As for your “damning the whole”, do I really need to point to your past comments where you’ve done just that? You did read that my criticism of you (and others) is specifically “contemptuous generalizations” that “go too far”, right?

          You yourself said there are “too many Chinese people” doing this. So just how many is tolerable, and how many before even you would allow people to state the obvious?

          You only need one person to state “the obvious” about that one person. You need a whole damn lot more if you’re going to generalize something onto an entire nationality or race.

          There’s a difference between “most black people have dark skin” and “most Chinese parents let their kids shit wherever they please”.

          No one is denying you from criticizing those responsible for behavior you find objectionable. The thing is, “Chinese people” in general are not directly responsible for the behavior of the individuals you have misleading vividness for.

          This is basic logic. Why are you unsatisfied with criticizing those guilty and insisting on being allowed to criticize the whole and the innocent? whuddyasack thinks there are too many white racists or egoists or whatever, but is it right for him to generalize and criticize the whole? No. He isn’t. You aren’t either.

          These are Chinese who are moneyed enough to travel that we are discussing

          So what? These are also Chinese you know to be nouveau riche or stuck with old ways and habits. Whether they have money or not is irrelevant to whether or not your generalizations onto the whole are defensible. Continental Europeans used to look down on Americans in the same way and make the same indefensible generalizations.

          Have you ever lived in and traveled around China?

          It’s upsetting that you don’t even know this about me yet have such strong prejudices against me. I currently live in China and have probably traveled around China more than you.

          Can I really be said to be painting mainland Chinese today with a broad brush, or is it more the case that you refuse to acknowledge that China is still at the stage in its development where social etiquette has a long way to go before being imbibed by the general public?

          As I said, you’re still arguing against a straw man. You are trying to prove that a phenomenon exists and that its mere existence justifies your generalizations. No, that a phenomenon exists justifies a criticism but it does not justify unfair generalizations.

          Those who criticize your unfair generalizations are also not automatically “China apologists”.

          Further, if I were not a laowai, if my name were something like Xu Wenrong and I made the comments above on Sina, would you have even batted an eyelash? Please answer that question honestly. You can keep the answer to yourself if you wish.

          First, what “comments above on Sina?”

          Second, is this another iteration of the “Kai is biased against foreigners” accusation?

          Third, if you meant to say NetEase, there’s a difference between black people generalizing themselves versus non-black people generalizing black people. The former is often correctly interpreted as self-reflection, self-deprecation, and humility. The latter is often correctly interpreted as self-righteous contempt, prejudice, if not racism.

          I wouldn’t bat an eyelash to the comments above because they evidence humility. Sometimes, I do bat an eyelash if the expressions of self-contempt “go too far”, and that’s when you see people begin to say “hey, one person doesn’t represent everyone.” Self-deprecation has always been less objectionable than someone judging others, especially if they’re judging others unfairly.

          Like you, I also take issue when people take generalizations into prejudice territory. But I’m not prejudiced against Chinese as a whole. I put Chinese people among the most hardworking people in the world, with a high threshold for pain and sacrifice that I cannot imagine myself having. But I also firmly believe, basing on my relatively well-travelled life, that I have yet to see a country whose citizens misbehave on a wider scale at home and abroad than mainlanders. (I make this distinction obviously because Taiwanese, HKers are not like that).

          That’s all fine and good, and it still doesn’t justify contemptuous generalizations that go too far. It also doesn’t justify calling me out as a “China apologist” because I take issue with how many people go too far in their generalizations.

          Come on, man, you picked this fight with me. You built a straw man, put my name on it, and came at me. What did you expect me to do if not defend myself against your misrepresentation of my position and character?

          If you are tempted to point to previous Western colonialists rampaging in Africa, please stop yourself. Western pillaging of African ivory before does not make it right for China to do it today. It does not make it right. It only means there have been two mistakes committed: one by Western colonial powers, the other by Chinese traders today.

          Dude, I use this same argument all the time here. Just because Chinese netizens are idiots doesn’t mean Western netizens can be idiots themselves. That you think I would point to previous Western colonialists rampaging in Africa just shows how little you know about me and how strong of a straw man you have in mind.

          Your problem is that you are still trying to use examples of negative phenomenon to justify unfair generalizations. Stop it. Just recognize that unfair generalizations are unfair generalizations and that people can make perfectly valid and much more effective criticisms about poor behavior or misbehavior by Chinese people without them. The insistence on their use and the DEFENSE of their use simply sabotages any meaningful discussion about those issues.

          Thanks for your reply, Kai. Even though we do disagree on a fundamental level, I respect the fact that you don’t flame and can debate intelligently. You do sound like a fair person, and I look forward to disagreeing (or agreeing?) with you in the future. :-)

          You once said something that I really liked:

          The disappointing thing about this writer is that despite being an ostensibly well-travelled, educated Chinese person with plenty of foreign friends, his worldview is still overly simplistic and grounded in caricature and ethnic supremacism. Look at how he paints all foreigners in China in a bad light…

          I feel this way about a lot of comenters because of the content of their comments and their commenting behavior. I criticize them for the same reasons. You lumped me with “China apologists” but what exactly have I said (quotes and links please) to make me a “China apologist”? Where have I ever, again, denied the existence of certain phenomenon and their prevalance in Chinese society?

          If you put away the straw man for a moment and carefully read what I’ve written, you should realize I’m not an apologist nor a denier. I am simply a critic of lousy comments espousing lousy indefensible generalizations, assertions, and sentiments. They too often reflect intellectual laziness if not dishonesty. They are distracting and they are destructive. You and I have an antagonistic distrust of each other. I think you’ve strawmanned me into something I’m not. For my part, I’ve seen questionable comments by you as well as too many upvotes by you on other people’squestionable comments. As a result, despite you demonstrating you understand that generalizations can go into prejudice territory, I’m forced to wonder why you’re inconsistent in your objections to it. Why do you object to some targeting some but happily upvote others targeting others?

          To reiterate in conclusion, please stop seeing me as denying phenomenon or prevalence. I am critical of generalizations that cross into prejudice territory. If you feel this is not true, feel free to argue with me when it happens, but please don’t randomly name-drop me and call me a China apologist out of the blue unless you’re prepared to provide substantiation. Thank you for your understanding. I really hope a better understanding between us can result from this.

      • Greg in Wuhan

        Its not a generalisation at all EVERY time I go shopping here in China there is always someone pusshing in line at the fron of the que. Its the one thing about China that really pisses me of

      • I built no straw man, Kai. You did. You made me out to be someone who has taken a generalization too far. You accused me of stereotyping, and “damning the whole,” when in fact all I did was express what has come to be a generally recognized truism amongst even mainlanders themselves: that mainlanders have some ways to go before they can call themselves refined. This you did despite the qualifier that there shouldn’t be a blanket condemnation.

        Never mind some of the more self-flagellating comments on the original Chinese article, just look at those above (ex., “Ethnic Chinese can change nationality and still be like that/this.”) In another post somewhere, I challenged you if you would’ve labeled me irrational and over-generalizing if I’d been a Wang Xiaolu, not a pasty-faced, “disillusioned expat” as some of the less desirable ChinaSmackers here called me. So is this a case of foreigners needing to hold back their criticism of Chinese because they cannot possibly understand everything about China, as I’ve occasionally heard?

        I also raised the point somewhere that no other country’s tourism authority needed to put out bulletins re: etiquette for its overseas travelers as often as China has. These faux pas happened with so much frequency that even State Councilor Wang Yang warned against Chinese tourists embarrassing themselves and the country. What do you think spurred him to be so concerned? On this point we at least agree: it’s the frequency with which social etiquette has been violated by travelling mainlanders.

        Based on this, I made an observation which you regarded to be over-generalizing. You conveniently raise the idea of statistically quantifying how many well-behaved Chinese there were on that flight vs how many allow their young to relieve themselves in public. That is ridiculous. Of course there’s going to be more well-behaved Chinese travelers on board. Does that flight make for a fair sample size of the general Chinese population? More importantly, my argument was how frequently these embarrassments involved mainland Chinese vs other countries’ citizens. As per personal experience and plenty of anecdotal evidence elsewhere suggests, it DOES NOT HAPPEN AS FREQUENTLY AS IT DOES WITH MAINLAND CHINESE—which was the gist of my post all along.

        Our point of contention is that I said you were a China apologist. Seeing how lawyerly your argumentation style has been in twisting my intentions, I guess you are one. Sorry if I hit a nerve with that, but that’s an opinion based on how vigorously you defend the straw man you built out of my arguments.

        You do realize that there will always be people who disagree with you in a forum like this? And that the only way to silence dissenters would be comment deletion or outright banning? I hope you do, because as long as the status quo exists, you will not be changing my mind anytime soon. One parting shot: So who appointed you Esteemed Defender of Chinese Honor and Face?

        • Probotector

          He does this to a lot of us, and it’s ridiculously tiresome. In fact, most of his comments are just him calling others bigots. He’s like a song with one note stuck on a broken record, and you are correct, he does go after the white expats more often than not, and makes only token efforts to refute the Asian trolls and racists on this site, who are normally far worse (see his last exchange with whuddyaballsack). I guess it’s because we’re easier targets and it’s a more popular thing to do, (not to mention, he has to save face for his people), and in that regard, he exudes the worst traits of both an Asian nationalist and a western liberal apologist. I know full well that you clearly stated that you don’t blame all Chinese for this, so where’s the generalisation? He’ll nitpick your wording and say things like: to say ‘most Chinese’ is unfair, but the phase ‘too many Chinese’ is okay.

          More to the point, this is the problem with the west as a whole when it comes to discussion. Most people are too obsessed with the risk of causing offence and being PC that they can’t see the big picture. No Chinese person would care about offending the sensibilities of a ‘foreigner’, because they believe we are naturally beneath them, and they are playing to win. Now, we shouldn’t be unfair and tell lies or blame it on race or genetics like a lot of them do, but we can’t pussyfoot around and worry about generalising when so many of them hate us based on nothing but hears’ say, stereotypes and indoctrination. At least your opinions are based on first hand experience, which puts you in a better position to make a judgement than they are. Nevertheless, you see which side is accused of being unfair.

          btw, “who appointed you Esteemed Defender of Chinese Honor and Face?” pseudonym Fauna did.

          • Kai

            Oh Christ, I could say you’re a broken record yourself just with a different song. The rest of your comment is garbage I’ve addressed multiple times before. You behave just like whuddyasack in all your sniveling pettiness, self-righteousness, and inability to introspect.

          • Probotector

            No, I don’t say openly racist things about Asians like he does about whites. (Thanks for deleting his comments, though it’s a shame I was too late to see them).

            You’re not snivelingly self-righteous and petty yourself? You believe that any comment that’s critical of Chinese society must be a result of prejudice and hatred, as opposed to an impartial observation. For the last time, criticising the society generally does not demonise the whole. The whole basis of your argument on this thread is ludicrous. Reptilian clearly said “of course there cannot be a blanket condemnation of all Chinese”, yet you keep plugging this notion that he “damn[s] the whole”, which he did not.

            How am I a broken record? I don’t just rag on China the whole time, I give credit where credit is due, share personal anecdotes and even make a joke with others sometimes. If you bothered to look at my comments (and don’t cop out about my discus profile being private, just perusal the articles) you would see that. In fact, I haven’t commented about China critically for a while, just the apologists who think that others criticising China makes them racist. Typically, you get a story on CS that portrays China badly. Someone criticises Chinese society, and you and your band of cohorts jump up with the race card every time. I’m simply saying that that’s bullshit.

            You say the rest of my statements are garbage? Well, your narrow mindedness, or your laziness, would cause you to say that.

            BTW, it’s interesting you jumped on replying to me first and left Reptilian alone, even though his comment was a direct reply to you. What? Was I name-dropping and trolling because I criticised you ‘behind your back’ so to speak?! …As if you’ve never done that.

          • Kai

            No, I don’t say openly racist things about Asians like he does about whites.

            I said “you behave just like whuddyasack in all your sniveling pettiness, self-righteousness, and inability to introspect.” I didn’t say you say “openly racist things about Asians like he does about whites”.

            However, if you really want to bring it up, you’ve said MANY things that are just as objectionable and obnoxious. I’d ask people to see your comment history for themselves but you’ve chosen to hide it from the public.

            (Thanks for deleting his comments, though it’s a shame I was too late to see them, though you deleted mine too out of ‘fairness’ I’ll reckon).

            We’ve had it up to here with both of you.

            You’re not snivelingly self-righteous and petty yourself?

            Sniveling pettiness? I don’t cozy up to others in order to talk shit about what I think must be a shared enemy, like you did with Reptilian here and how whuddyasack has cozied up to me to talk shit about you. I don’t name-drop and dog-pile people. You do.

            Self-righteousness? I don’t think make gross generalizations about entire nationalities/ethnicities, asserting one’s superiority over another’s inferiority. You and whuddyasack both do, repeatedly. whuddyasack’s garbage about most white people being “clannish” and “racist” is no different from your garbage about how the “vast majority” of Chinese people are “xenophobic and racist”, insisting that foreigners do not get any preferential treatment in China and are “largely hated”. Both of you double-down on your black-and-white generalizations, insisting on their validity, refusing to be more reasonable or measured in your words.

            You believe that any comment that’s critical of Chinese society must be a result of prejudice and hatred.

            No, I don’t. Again, this is a straw man. Not all comments that are critical of China are the same. There are defensible ones and indefensible ones. There are those that are fair and reasonable, and there are those that are unfair and unreasonable. I take issue with the indefensible, unfair, and unreasonable ones. Just because I take issue with one of your critical comments doesn’t mean I think all critical comments are the result of prejudice and hatred. Why are you unable to differentiate between these?

            as opposed to an impartial observation.

            If I accuse a comment of being prejudiced, I obviously don’t think it is an “impartial observation”. Whether or not it is actually “impartial” has to be argued. You have spent more time accusing people of trolling you and trying to justify how generalizations are okay if they are “true” than reflecting upon how you could have worded your comment in a fairer, more defensible way. You have spent more time accusing people of being “liberals” and “too PC” than you have thinking about how you can actually make valid criticisms without being needlessly sloppy and offensive.

            For the last time, criticising the society generally does not demonise the whole.

            For the last time, I do NOT think criticizing society by itself demonizes the whole. I think “demonizing the whole” is “demonizing the whole”. People need to reflect on their words (or those of others) and acknowledge how the words themselves may be “demonizing the whole”. There are ways to express criticism in even, fair measure. When people refuse to do so and argue that they be allowed to express criticism however carelessly they wish, then their credibility and sincerity is in question.

            The whole basis of your argument on this thread is ludicrous. Reptilian clearly said “of course there cannot be a blanket condemnation of all Chinese”, yet you keep plugging this notion that he “damn[s] the whole”, which he did not.

            No, this just shows that you did not follow my argument in my response to Reptilian. Please go back and re-read it. The basis of my argument is that Reptilian (and now you) label me a “China apologist” or “Esteemed Defender of Chinese Honor and Face” in order to dismiss my objections to comments I consider objectionable. Do you remember when you yourself said this to someone:

            “Does it makes you feel better, and somehow important, to label someone as dumb or crazy in order to dismiss any charge of why your opinions are wrong?”

            Reptilian and you, among others, do the same thing. You’ve labeled me in order to dismiss my charges of why your opinions are wrong or comments are objectionable.

            You need to apply the same standard to yourself as you apply to others.

            Reptilian labeled me a China apologist for my past disagreements with him and comments/commenters he identifies with. My response explains why I am not a China apologist, why his accusations are false, and that he is mischaracterizing the nature of my objections and disagreements (just as you mischaracterize them). Both of you misrepresent my objections as objecting to criticism instead of what they actually are, objections to poorly-made, indefensible criticisms.

            How am I a broken record?

            Can you make your comment history public again? You’re a broken record because you consistently bash China and Chinese people with snide, indefensible, negative generalizations.

            One time, when someone you believed to be black criticized you for your anti-Chinese prejudice, for using the slur “chink”, you unbelievably asked him why he defends people who hate him, as if Chinese anti-black prejudice should stop him from defending Chinese against your anti-Chinese prejudice. It’s just like how whuddyasack asks me why I defend you against what I considered to be unfair criticisms of you by him when you’re always so unfair to me and don’t even appreciate the fairness I extend to you.

            As I alluded to above, you also consistently and repeatedly accuse people who disagree with you as “trolling”. I’ve explained this to you before. You are misusing the word. Moreover, should I accuse you or Reptilian of “trolling” because you guys disagree with me and voiced your disagreement? Do you see how stupid that accusation is? You may say you know that disagreement is not “trolling”, but I don’t think you have ever substantiated your accusations of “trolling” in response to disagreement. I don’t think you have ever articulated why someone is not just disagreeing with you but is actually “trolling” you. I have no choice but to conclude you are just arbitrarily calling people names because they disagree with you and you don’t like it.

            I don’t just rag on China the whole time,

            I never said you “rag on China the whole time”.

            I give credit where credit is due

            I beg to differ. Like the example I gave above, you refused to concede that foreigners do often enjoy preferential treatment in China, insisting on grossly exaggerating that foreigners are “largely hated” and more or less get discriminated against negatively all the time. You simply could not bring yourself to acknowledge that yes, sometimes foreigners get preferential treatment, while making your point that you feel foreigners also get negatively discriminated against as well. You would not do it. You refused to take a fair, defensible position that reflects reality. You were so wed to painting foreigners as victims in China that you just had to go too far in exaggerating the bad while dismissing the good. You refused to be reasonable.

            Another instance, you once quoted a commenter who said:

            “The actions of a single idiot do not represent the behavior of an entire nation.”

            And responded with:

            “Except in China.”

            You want to say you were joking? Sure, you were joking, but you make these obnoxiously snide and petty bullshit comments all too often, and yet you have the audacity to wonder why other commenters think you’re prejudiced against China/Chinese. You throw out the same thoughtless negative generalizations that you’re critical of when a Chinese person does it.

            If you bothered to look at my comments (and don’t cop out about my discus profile being private, just perusal the articles) you would see that.

            I do look at your comments. Everything I’ve accused you of is based on your comment history. I can see your comment history easily as a moderator. It isn’t private to me. You making it private only makes it harder for OTHERS to see what I refer to. One cannot help but wonder why you feel the need to do that.

            In fact, I haven’t commented about China critically for a while, just the apologists who think that others criticising China makes them racist.

            Right, you’re having a blast wrongfully maligning people as “apologists” because they’re critical of comments and beliefs you identify with. How the hell am I an “apologist”? Being critical of remarks that I think go too far doesn’t make me an “apologist”. No one says criticizing China makes a person “racist”; people argue how a specifically worded criticism suggests racism or prejudice. Even whuddyasack criticizes China but calls white people racist NOT for criticizing but for HOW they criticize. There are tons of criticisms about China on cS that are not objected to. Know why? Because they managed to use their brain and articulated themselves in an intelligent and defensible manner. Why are they able to but you aren’t?

            Typically, you get a story on CS that portrays China badly. Someone criticises Chinese society, and you and your band of cohorts jump up with the race card every time. I’m simply saying that that’s bullshit.

            No, what’s bullshit is that you think all criticism in this situation is the same. What’s bullshit is that you won’t introspect as to why some criticisms go too far and deserve censure. What’s bullshit is instead of thinking about what I am saying, you ignore what I say and instead think I’m just trying to silence criticism in general.

            You say the rest of my statements are garbage? Well, your narrow mindedness, or your laziness, would cause you to say that.

            No, the fact that I’ve addressed them all many times before is what causes me to say it. I am already repeating myself. You keep throwing the same baseless accusations against me, never once providing any substantiation based on my comment history. I get tired of addressing them time and time again, which I am, to my chagrin, doing yet again. I mean, seriously, we JUST had a long argument LAST WEEK where you falsely claimedyou were persecuted for merely generalizing and had to be reminded that there is such a thing as taking generalizations too far. You complain about how whuddyasack generalizes when he generalizes in the same way you often do. Both of you feel your generalizations are “true” and neither of you are willing to tone your remarks down to something far more accurate and defensible. Both of you insist on making stupid generalizations.

            BTW, it’s interesting you jumped on replying to me first and left Reptilian alone, even though his comment was a direct reply to you.

            What the hell are you talking about? I replied to you AFTER I replied to him.

            …As if you’ve never done that.

            PROVE IT. My comment history is public. Go find examples. Stop with the straw men and actually point to something by me that exists and substantially proves your accusations.

          • Probotector

            Man, you put so much effort into this. Suffice it to say, no one can police how people think, regardless of how right you think you are.

          • Kai

            Sigh, listen to yourself. What’s to stop me from replying to your comments and saying the same thing, that no one cares what you think, regardless of how “right” you think you are, and suggest you are somehow a “police” of whatever you observe and remark on? That’s just a childish retort.

            This is very simple. Reptilian (and you), made specific accusations about me. I feel those accusations are false because I don’t think I meet the definition of the “China apologist” label you guys put on me. I also see you guys trying to impress notions on me that I am already aware of. I’ve defended myself against your specific accusations. If you want them to stick, you ultimately have to prove them by citing evidence to the contrary.

            You guys don’t and–I think–can’t. I’m not a China apologist and I am fully aware of the phenomenon that underpins many of the comments and remarks you guys make that I find objectionable. My past comments amply prove these in contradiction to your accusations. I believe you guys are using a straw man and falsely labeling me in order to dismiss the actual reasons I have for objecting to may of the comments and remarks you guys make.

            Those actual reasons are that your remarks too often go too far and are no longer fair, rational, or reasonable. Instead of introspecting as to whether or not your remarks have indeed crossed over into being unfair, irrational, or unreasonable, and then tone yourselves down back to a more fair, rational, and reasonable position, you guys choose to accuse me of being a China apologist, an “esteemed defender of Chinese honor and face”. Instead of revising yourselves to a more defensible position, you guys instead double-down and choose to dismiss your criticis with false accusations.

            That’s a logical fallacy. You can accuse me of being a China apologist all you want but it still won’t refute my specific arguments of why I think your remarks have gone too far. When I acccuse you guys of something, I point to specific things you guys have said, to your very own words. I prove my claims. You guys don’t. You guys accuse me of being a “China apologist” not because I actually blindly defend China but ultimately for simply having the audacity to challenge the fairness, rationality, and reasonableness of your remarks. Instead of arguing the fairness, rationality, and reasonableness of your remarks, you instead resort to personal attacks against me.

            That again is a logical fallacy.

            Specific to your guys’ behavior on this post, imagine if I wrote a comment name-dropping you saying “I’m waiting for Probotector or other China bashers to come and explain away” any examples of Chinese netizens not being “xenophobic and racist” like you insist the “vast majority” of them to be. What more, unlike your guys’ accusation of me being a “China apologist”, I can actually point to multiple comments of yours evidencing a pattern of you holding that position whereas you guys can’t point to something likewise proving me to be a “China apologist”.

          • Kai

            Another example of you and whuddyasack being two sides of the same coin:

            Political correctness is one of the things wrong with the world today and it is so frustrating that so few of us seek to challenge it. You always feel like you are walking on eggshells in an effort not to offend the other party. It is depressing how someone’s own prejudices of you come to the fore just because you hold “racist” viewpoints.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/japanese-pick-up-trash-after-world-cup-game-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1530547022

            this is the problem with the west as a whole when it comes to discussion. Most people are too obsessed with the risk of causing offence and being PC that they can’t see the big picture. No Chinese person would care about offending the sensibilities of a ‘foreigner’, because they believe we are naturally beneath them, and they are playing to win.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/chinese-parents-have-child-poop-on-airplane-seat-reactions.html#comment-1529800025

            The “big picture” you are missing is how your justification for offending the sensibilities because you believe “no Chinese person” cares about doing it to foreigners just perpetuates the cycle of offense, indignation, and antagonism. Both you and whuddyasack believe you are justified in fighting “fire with fire”. If “they” do it, why not “me”, you both argue. Neither of you are willing to be the bigger man. Neither of you are seeing the “big picture”.

        • Kai

          You need to re-read my response.

          I said you built a straw man by accusing me of being a “China apologist”, and that I am somehow ignorant of “a general sentiment that there are some ways to go before China can call itself truly civilized by contemporary norms.”

          I am not a China apologist and I know there is “a general sentiment that there are some ways to go before China can call itself truly civilized by contemporary norms.”

          Therefore, you built a straw man. Unlike your accusation of me, my accusation of you is valid.

          You made me out to be someone who has taken a generalization too far. You accused me of stereotyping, and “damning the whole,”

          No, not quite. This is what I wrote:

          I take issue when people take their generalizations too far, just as others do when they get lumped into generalizations others use. This does not make me an apologist. It makes me FAIR.

          I was arguing that you think me an “apologist” for merely taking issue with people making generalizations that go too far. Objecting to unfair generalizations is not the definition of an “apologist”, so your accusation of me being an apologist is invalid.

          If you feel your accusation is valid, please go ahead and quote/link to past comments of mine that suggest I am a “China apologist” who doesn’t seem to recognize “a general sentiment that there are some ways to go before China can call itself truly civilized by contemporary norms.”

          I don’t think you can, because you are merely accusing me of being an apologist for objecting to generalizations you are inclined to agree with regardless of how defensible they actually are. That’s like calling me “anti-Chinese” for having objected to Chinese people making prejudiced generalizations. Your labeling of me is not based on fact but upon your desire to malign me for my past disagreements with you.

          So is this a case of foreigners needing to hold back their criticism of Chinese because they cannot possibly understand everything about China, as I’ve occasionally heard?

          No, this is a case of PEOPLE needing to hold back their criticism of ANYTHING when it goes too far, becomes indefensible, and amounts to an expression of prejudice instead of fact.

          Based on this, I made an observation which you regarded to be over-generalizing. […] which was the gist of my post all along.

          Why are you responding on a new thread instead of to my existing response? Pleas re-read my response to you. Your characterization of my response suggests you did not understand what I wrote.

          Our point of contention is that I said you were a China apologist. Seeing how lawyerly your argumentation style has been in twisting my intentions, I guess you are one. Sorry if I hit a nerve with that, but that’s an opinion based on how vigorously you defend the straw man you built out of my arguments.

          How “lawyerly” my argumentation style doesn’t make me a “China apologist”. It at most just makes me “lawyerly”. Are you going to actually argue and provide evidence to substantiate your accusation of me being a “China apologist” or are you just going to badger me about hitting a nerve. It is your job to adequately communicate your intentions. If your communication fails to do so, that’s your problem. If your communication amounts to attacking a straw man, that’s your problem.

          Your intention here was to call me out thinking this article vindicates you and everyone else I have previously disagreed with. Your mistake was in completely misunderstanding of–worse–dishonestly misrepresenting the point of contention I have had with you and others in the past. You have accused me of being something I am not and for not recognizing something I clearly do recognize. Just because I don’t go along with people’s stupid and unfair generalizations does not make me a “China apologist” or ignorant of the phenomenon that gives rise to such generalizations. Just because there are statistically a lot of black criminals in the US doesn’t mean I should go along with stupid generalizations about black American criminality.

          You do realize that there will always be people who disagree with you in a forum like this?

          LoL, what makes you think I don’t realize this? I am one of the most vocal defenders of people expressing disagreement.

          And that the only way to silence dissenters would be comment deletion or outright banning?

          Are you seriously trying to make the argument that MY disagreement with YOU means I want to “silence dissenters”?

          I hope you do, because as long as the status quo exists, you will not be changing my mind anytime soon.

          More’s the pity for you. You are clutching to and defending prejudice in the face of rationality and reason.

          One parting shot: So who appointed you Esteemed Defender of Chinese Honor and Face?

          Another straw man. I don’t defend Chinese honor and face, I defend reason and fairness. It is incredibly sad that you and many others refuse to acknowledge that there is such a thing as defensible and indefensible criticisms, and that the indefensible deserve censure.

    • Dr Sun

      These incidents are not representative of the vast majority of Chinese people.

    • Jay K.

      You sir need to win some sort of award like “Comment of the year” Award or the “anti-bully award” and no I am not being sarcastic. I thought I was the only one who saw through Kai’s past comments as apologetic and somewhere in-line with the wordings and arrogance of Mr. Rui of CCTV.

      I up voted you just like the masses!

      • Dr Sun

        lol, give a troll a crown award more like

      • mr.wiener

        Jesus wept… this story has really brought the crazies out.

    • Surfeit

      You got so much hate mail! It’s freaking beautiful, man!

      • mr.wiener

        It’s flame bait par excelence , in one post he manages to polarize the grouchy waiguoren and libatard middle ground as well as piss off the mods and get a huge upvote from the lurkers… bravisimo! well played sirrah!!
        Meanwhile truth lies bleeding in the gutter. We haven’ t had this much BS since the last black guy in China story.
        Edit: has anyone got any troll repellant? I seem to have run out.

        • Surfeit

          ‘You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!’

          Couldn’t resist.

        • Christ, I wasn’t expecting this much response. I thought my comment was pretty tame, but obviously other people disagree.

          • Alex Dương

            That’s always been your problem: you never bother to think things through even halfway. You read something somewhere about “social inheritance,” and you think it explains why the PRC remains a one-party dictatorship. Never mind that such a “hypothesis” would fail to explain how any nation democratized.

            You read something somewhere about accrued interest and penalties on KMT war bonds that defaulted in 1939, and you think that even after taking into account Chinese-held Treasuries, the Chinese still owe the U.S. You didn’t even take five seconds to search for Chinese Treasury holdings; you just assumed it was way less than $750 billion. And of course, this is excluding that the first order of business should’ve been a check to see whether this was a fringe argument. Which it is.

          • bujiebuke

            “That’s always been your problem: you never bother to think things through even halfway”

            This and his writing, clearly point to an impulsive half-wit personality with a Brownian motion-like decision making.

          • Err, that’d be more like YOUR problem. You think I “just read something somewhere” about something like social heritance and misunderstood it. You think I just skimmed over the account of the emergency loan that the KMT took out and failed to pay back. Your browser has a built-in search engine, do go back over the legal pleadings, China’s current Treasury holdings and tell me who owes whom.

            You assume too much about strangers and just tag their posts as “fringe arguments.” That’s your little mental issue right there. I only noticed recently that you were a mod, and perhaps needed the egotistic boost of putting commenters in their place from time to time. That should explain some of the neurosis.

            Sorry if you missed me. It does take long for me to reply, as I’ve been away for awhile and neglected my ChinaSmacking for a few weeks. You might see me reply more frequently soon, though, as the Asia Pacific is heating up, and I’ll be back there soon.

          • Alex Dương

            Are you trying to say that “social inheritance” was an original argument you came up with? If so, then to say the quality of your thinking is sophomoric is an insult to sophomores. You could not even answer the most obvious follow-up question: how did any country manage to democratize? If that wasn’t what you were trying to say, then hey, you weren’t saying anything then, and you aren’t saying anything now.

            You weren’t willing to read the order of Morris v. PRC yourself, but I’m happy to summarize “who owes whom” for that case to you: no one owes anything to anyone. You could’ve figured that out if you had bothered to read the introductory paragraph:

            The PRC moves to dismiss Morris’s complaint on the grounds that: (1) it is entitled to sovereign immunity and none of the exceptions enumerated
            in the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (“FSIA”) are applicable; (2) the action is barred by the comprehensive settlement of existing claims of
            United States nationals against the PRC under the International Claims Settlement Act and a 1979 treaty between the two nations; and (3) the statute of limitations has long since expired. For the reasons that follow, the Court concludes that it lacks subject matter jurisdiction over Morris’s complaint as the PRC is entitled to sovereign immunity, and further, that if jurisdiction existed, plaintiffs’ claims would be time-barred.

            So, yeah, no one owes anyone anything in that case. But don’t let the facts stop you from regurgitating half-baked fringe positions as if they were mainstream.

            As for your “place,” buddy, I’m happy to have an actual discussion with you. You showed me a long time ago that you are not interested in actual discussions. You prefer running away over actually dealing with the obvious weaknesses of almost all your arguments.

          • mr.wiener

            Judging frpm the upvotes a lot of people agree with you too, but it is a contentious subject.

    • WFH

      huh?…who is this clown and why is he so concerned with how the Chinese live their lives?…oh wait..cos he “lived long enough in China” and fancies himself the leading authority on Chinese civility..

    • I wonder why you lived so many years in China… felt so special and exotic right… don’t call yourself civilized, you’re probably from a country that supports God, and Israel

      • I lived for years in China because despite all the shittiness (bureaucracy, lack of social etiquette, ), the culture and the language were actually wonderful challenges to master. And the people back then were actually warmer than Chinese urbanites today. This was true until about shortly before the Olympics. Suddenly it seemed everyone had a dose of Eau d’Ego and believed China to be the center of the world again (figuratively speaking, for all the dumb flamers here)

        I don’t support Israel, and I certainly don’t believe in God. Nice of you to try and foist a stereotype onto me, though. Stupidity flies again on CS.

      • Probotector

        “from a country that supports God, and Israel”

        Sorry… what? Sounds a bit random. What’s so uncivilised about belief in a God or about Israel for that matter? Are saying you’re an anti-Semite? Even if you are what’s that got to do with this?

        and @disqus_qpFQtxPJyF:disqus upvoted this?

        • sorry man no, I am not an anti Semite. The word “Semite” refers to those quoted in the bible, descendants of Sem, first son of Noah. That would include palestinians, egyptians, israelis, iranians, etc. which all seemed to live quite well together for some time before the arrival of Zionism in the late 40s. We westerners can always try to make ourselves feel better by unleashing our anger towards things we’ve experienced , having nothing to do with them whatsoever, and we often do that under a circumstance that can’t back up our argument as it is. In other words, why would I stay in China for so long if I hate it so much? Or why would I call myself civilized when I come from a civilization that praises god over human resources, or supports Israels apartheid disguised as justifiable by the media?

          I might seem hypocrite now as I’ve also ranted about China on CS before, but then when you are back home and see stupidity in your own language you start to question yourself how civilized you and your people really were before you went to China… and you finally get to see how useless ranting is.

          If people upvote me I think it might be because somehow we share the same feeling.

          • Etymology is not definition. Citing the obscure etymology of one component of a modern compound word is nothing more than an exercise in pseudo-intellectual pedantry. That word, as used in modern day English, has absolutely nothing to do with what you’re talking about. Devoid of the prefix, it has a broader connotation vaguely mirroring your Biblical reference, along linguistic lines, but that prefix is not just some afterthought that you can freely jettison.

            Your lecture to Probotector is the equivalent of lecturing someone that hotdogs are not, in fact, made of dogs.

    • Dr Sun

      you mean “Rick whos never lived to China” and who like you did a 2 week tour guided vacation to the wrong 1st tier cities in China.

  • IM TIRED OF THESE MUTHAFUCKIN KIDS SHITTING ON MY MUTHAFUCKIN PLANE

    • mr.wiener

      “Thank you sir, will that be pooping or non~pooping”.
      Pretty gutless of the steward(ess)/server to back down over this one.

      • Rick in China

        What was she supposed to do? How could she have stopped the situation without physically grabbing or doing something else that could be construed as assault (or at least lose her job)?

        • mr.wiener

          Hmm. Can they do something if you are smoking or using a phone on takeoff/landing? At the very least they could have security waiting at the destination to yell at these fuck~knuckles or give them a fine.

          • Rick in China

            I believe all Delta flights would have a flight security guy on board somewhere, and smoking (fire) / cell phones (lies of course) could be considered a security risk, so he would likely be called or see the situation and regulate.

            But, a kid shitting? Not seen the same level of risk – faecal contamination perhaps..so I doubt the air marshall would get involved.

            Not sure what to do about this really……. would the security at the exit be able to charge them with something? I suppose shitting in a plane SHOULD be an offense?

          • mr.wiener

            Point is people in China and everywhere do this shit (wee! a pun!!) because they think they can get away with it, they will even ignore all the people yelling at them and giving them dirty looks…because they got away with it.
            Catch a few, shame them and it will disappear within a decade.

          • Rick in China

            Shame them – like, perhaps, wait for the child to start shitting, then flip that paper up onto them? They’re clearly so thick skinned, shaming does nothing.

            厚脸皮 mos def.

            These people exist all over here. They don’t give ANY SHITS what you do or say, they have thicker skin than anything else. My buddy used to tell me about this guy on the subway he’d frequently see, and the guy had MAJOR gas problems. He’d be standing there on the subway, farting loud and fucking nasty deadly gas clouds, people would look at give him bad looks…..

            He’d stare back, right in their eyes, and continue farting – without even flinching or fidgeting. This is what you’re dealing with when trying to ‘shame’ these type of people.

          • Free Man

            This calls for a website where one can upload photos of people who (let their children) shit or poo in public.

          • David

            NOOOOOOOO!!

          • Kai

            There’s not much detail about the situation and what is related may not have been all that was done by the stewardess/airline.

            I would like to think if the responding stewardess couldn’t speak Chinese, she would’ve found a colleague who could. I’m pretty sure Delta’s China routes will have some Chinese-speaking attendants. I would like to think they actually tried to communicate what allowing the kid to shit on the seat was not allowed by the airline and that it negatively affects surrounding passengers if not the entire cabin of passengers. I’d like to think that if communicating this didn’t result in remorse, apology, and at least future compliance, she would then threaten them with a fine for misbehavior or possible blacklisting that I’m fairly confident most airlines have.

            There are people who are shameless and stubborn, but we have to give them a chance before concluding that’s what they are. In that case, they should be blacklisted. Airlines have pretty wide latitude with regards to in-flight behavior of passengers. I really hope the stewardess didn’t just shrug and literally “dropped the subject”. If I was another passenger, I’d be pissed if the stewardess didn’t do what she could. No one likes confrontation but she has authority and is entrusted to use it.

          • diverdude7

            weird…. how come did stuff post here too and i cant even see the comment box whir I am typing… pain in the ass…’s computers suk ‘nada

        • lacompacida

          She could have the captain to put those under arrest.

          • Rick in China

            Is allowing a child to poop on paper on a chair an arrest-able offense? I’d be surprised if it was… Also, like I said, it would be the air marshall that would do the arresting :D

        • FYIADragoon

          This qualifies under public indecency, vandalism, and harassment. The stewardess also had warned them prior to their failure to abide by the rules, the arrest would be fully justifiable for belligerent passengers. The captain is within jurisdiction to put them under arrest. How far the law would take it once they are on the ground is another story. Hopefully some sort of fines would be levied at least.

    • Probotector

      Actually, the line is “I’ve had it with…” not “I’m tired of…” Sorry to nitpick, because it was a good reference you made.

  • IsurvivedChina

    That’s just a new level of classy! Well done!

  • Mendacius say, this gives a new meaning to the phrase “doing your duty” …as long as people do not have rights, they won’t care whether ( or where ) they do their duties. No rights, not responsibilities.
    That said, I can’t wait to get back to the swimming pool where I swim every week and where my kid did a you-know-what in the water last week. The pool guard did not look to happy when I asked him to scoop it up. I can’t say I felt too guilty about it. The water was pretty filthy anyway, even though the pool belongs to a five star hotel in Shenzhen. When in Rome, etc.

  • Probotector

    It’s just an ignorance of etiquette and protocols observed in a Western nation, probably because they don’t exist in China, and many people in Chins will do things that are wrong or upsetting to others if they know they can get away with it. However, I’ve seen the incidents that this article describes elsewhere in my country from many who non-Chinese, so they are phenomena that exist universally.

    • ptptp

      I’ve seen everything mentioned but the pooping is a seat.

  • Probotector

    I love the translation “Chinese elders” as if to suggest these people are somehow wise and pious.

    • Kai

      How else would you translate “家长”? Wise and pious are subjective connotations to the word “elders”, not its definition. Elders is a reasonable translation and better than “the older members of the family”.

      • Probotector

        It was tongue-in-cheek. In English the word ‘elder’ evokes this sense of wisdom, responsibility and leadership, so it seems comical given the circumstances of the story. Alas, you’re nitpicking again, probably going to call me dishonest, prejud… ah fuck it, I don’t even care.

        • Kai

          There’s a difference between not picking up on you being “tongue in cheek” and “nitpicking”.

          • Probotector

            Is that difference ‘intelligence’? It’s not the first time either.

  • Zappa Frank

    I want to point out that this thing is not that uncommon in china. In the 2012 I took a flight from Shanghai to Chengdu, and the mom next to me had the great idea to let his son (at least 6 years old, not a baby) to pee in a bag because the poor brat was unable to wait. By the way, it wasn’t a 农民 family, but a relatively rich and ‘educated’ family, they were all able to speak English.

  • Zappa Frank

    or also a de-westernization, from before the communism arrival. Seems bad manners in china are results of the CCCP.

    • vincent_t

      about to say that too.
      Most scholars and elite seek refuge to Taiwan when CCP took over the mainland. It was a complete disaster afterwards, peasants and farmers took control and fu** everyone else in this country.

      • Rick in China

        Wasn’t the whole backbone of the rebellion to kill landowners and businessmen (ie. successful/educated) and free the ‘slave’-like masses (ie. uneducated/peasants)? Then suddenly all the top peasants became the new leaders?

        • vincent_t

          Yup, isn’t that similar to what I said?

          • Rick in China

            Yeah – just reiterating for confirmation. The “seek refuge to Taiwan” — more like “were being slaughtered so escaped with the KMT” :P

          • vincent_t

            Oh i guess the right way to put it should be “seek refuge in Taiwan”
            They ran away from the CCP and settled in Taiwan mostly. And decades later, Vietnamese gone through the same disaster.

          • David

            Don’t forget Cambodia.

        • Sydney Ma

          “Wasn’t the whole backbone of the rebellion to kill landowners and businessmen”

          Yes and no, the proletarian revolution was a mean for Mao and his buddies to get to power and not a true ideal. Today’s China is the complete opposite of Mao’s China in many ways (strong inequalities among its people, opened to trade with foreign powers, landlords owning dozens or hundred of apartments, …), but he would probably like it because the CCP is still leading the country.

  • Gerhana

    i think its a race to see who can poop in the most amazing places. its an underground game designed by peasant, a game of teamwork and proper timing. I am sure they are trying to deliver some message, but it is encrypted and we just dont know what it is yet. Once we know im sure it will bring an enlightenment to humanity, ending the war and starvation. This group nailed it, on a plane high above the ground where no one can escape, causing a dilemma to the pilot. To land or not to land? im sure its quite a headache.

    Im waiting for the movie version with Liam Neeson in it “what I have is a very special set of skill…”

    • Rick in China

      It’s like Ingress, except with defecation to capture points.

    • wnsk

      this is the best damn post in the entire thread :)

  • Boris

    Someone poops in public – Chinese think ‘I hope it isn’t Chinese’
    Someone blows something up – Muslims think ‘I hope it isn’t Muslim’
    Someone says something racist – White people think ‘I hope it isn’t white’

    Feel free to extent the list.

    • Germandude

      Someone says “Free Palestine” – Israel shouts “Antisemitism”

      Sorry, had to do it.

      • mr.wiener

        Since they are both Semitic people, is supporting one over the other antisemitic?

        • Germandude

          I don’t know and honestly, I don’t think it’s worth talking about Israel or Palestine. Or did they play in the world cup?

          • Boris

            Now, such a match would be explosive. Reminds me of the time Iran and the US played each other. Think it was in 1998.

      • denvereen

        It pisses me off no end that people think criticizing Israel equates to antisemitism. Howard Stern (american jewish radio dj) was on a rant recently (it is on youtube!) about how anyone who criticizes Israel over Gaza is antisemitic AND anti-american. How the USA can be brought into it, god only knows. I worked in Israel before and have jewish friends, heck even a bit of russian jewish ancestry, but I still think killing kids in schools is not going to win the hearts and minds of the palestinians.

    • vincent_t

      Someone crashes a plane -Malaysian think “i hope it isn’t MAS”

      • Boris

        I have to say, that did make me crack a smile. Feel bad now.

    • FYIADragoon

      Someone commits a violent crime – Black people think ‘I hope it isn’t black’

  • lacompacida

    Chinese people showing off their glorious cultural heritage again, this time, with odor.

  • Boris

    I can understand when someone has to go, but there isn’t a place to go and goes in public (and even then, does it so for it to be as out of the way as possible). But this? There is a bloody toilet. There is no need for the kid to shit on the seat (which was covered with paper). How the hell did they think that was fine? If I was a passenger on the flight I’d complain once the plane has landed, or if it hasn’t taken off, ask for different flight.

  • Boris

    Did you asked for your seat to be changed?

    • Kilkenny

      The seats were fully booked.

      • Boris

        Now I understand “Sometimes I miss good ole’ ultraviolence.”

  • Free Man

    It is really depressing having family like this…

  • Free G (just left the Fiefdom)

    Fecking Chimatrons. On holiday now in the Philippines and they’re behaving just like they do back in Chim-land. Loud, pushy, rude.

    I told a couple of them to shut the fuck up yesterday in Mandarin. The priceless look of “I’ve just been pwned” was awesome.

    Cunts, roughly 1.2 million. There are a couple hundred million decent ones.

    • YourSupremeCommander

      Of courses you have picked someone smaller than you to say that shit. LMFO, say it to someone your own size or bigger, I dare you.

      • Free G (just left the Fiefdom)

        The asshat was bigger than me, with 5 of his friends, Supreme Assclown.

        So you need not dare me, fool.

  • that guy

    I understand there’s not much the stewardess can do after the baby has already done its business, but what I would like to know is what did the airline do AFTER the plane landed and this family disembarked. were they taken and sat in front of some adminstrators, fined? If no action was taken, obviously the caretakers won’t learn much from this incident

  • garbo

    Where’s the riteous indignation like the family that let their child poo on the street in HK? Are they finally starting to understand that they behave badly?

  • Cameron

    Something I hear a lot in China is 中国人的素质很低。 Chinese people looking down on their compatriots personal quality.

    So maybe there is something in it. In reality, there are a lot of people in China with low 素质。

    But in fact there are three kinds of people in China. % approximate!
    People with good quality as anywhere else (80%)
    People with basic good quality, but sometimes affected by bad quality people and environment into bad quality behaviour (10%)
    Bad quality (uneducated/selfish) 10%

    • Kai

      I think most people everywhere, including China, have ASPECTS of their character that are less than ideal. For example, someone may cut in line without shame but at the same time be a filial daughter. They have poor character in something or some situations, but they are not necessarily overall of poor character. A lot of people in China have habits and ways of doing things that are understandably objectionable to those who didn’t grow up in the same environment and have the same background.

  • Rick in China

    Nobody is saying “mainlanders do this” or “mainlanders do that”. Like I’ve mentioned in other streams – many in Canada are liked, contributors to society, and leave relatively good impressions on their other countrymen. No statement I’ve made implies “mainland people misbehave” or some blanket bold statement like that.

    The statement I made was this: “and mainland China still has a lot of leftover peasantry pervading the masses”. Are you denying that? Or are you just creating an utterly useless non-sequitur?

    • Claude

      Oops, fair enough. Sorry for trying to hijack the thread. To be frank I didn’t even read the majority of comments, it’s gotten that predictable. These days I’m just here out of habit with an occasional interest. I was just wondering if you are anyone else has heard of mainland Chinese taking these habits to wherever they have immigrated to. You seem to be a man of the world and like so many of the younger participants on this site have been elsewhere other than China being your first and only international experience.

      “Leftover Peasantry” Yeah, plenty of that.

  • x1sfg

    Why doesn’t anyone address the real travesty? That they’re flying to Detroit. With class like that, they’ll fit in quite nicely in Detroit.

    • Kai

      LoL, that’s mean. Poor Detroit. At least they got that Robocop statue up, right? Wait, they did, right?

    • ex-expat

      I know that there are frequently layovers in Detroit when flying from China, my guess is that is why they were flying there. Say what you want about the city, the airport is actually really nice.

      • x1sfg

        I was there for Independence Day. Never seen so much piss on restroom floors. The Chinese parents in the article would have been right at home at that airport.

  • Kai

    Did you try explaining how the smell bothers everyone around them? Without knowing the exact exchange, there’s a chance she thought you were suggesting the diaper changing shelf in restroom would be more convenient/easier for her but she didn’t think the inconvenience of changing the diaper in her more cramped plane seat was that big of a deal. She may have thought you were trying to be helpful to her instead of pointing out she was doing something inconsiderate to those around her.

  • chucky3176

    Did the kid’s poop, a diarrhea followed by urine? If so, that newspaper wouldn’t have done any good.

  • Sydney Ma

    Last plane I took was from Chengdu to Guangzhou, during the take off, right after the safety video played (in Chinese) some guy stood up to go to the toilets, the crew members sitting at the end of the plane told him to sit down but he wouldn’t listen, I really hoped to see him falling and hurt himself but sadly it didn’t happen.

  • Sydney Ma

    Like middle class Chinese trying to look classy with Vuitton handbags and designer clothes but smelling as bad as farmers because their last shower was a week ago, there are so many of them in Guangdong. Gain face somewhere, lose it somewhere else.

  • Teacher in China

    Some people just shouldn’t be allowed to travel…..

    Seriously, there should be a questionnaire when you apply for a visa:
    1. You are on a plane with your kid. He needs to take a shit. Do you
    a) Drop trou and let him shit on a piece of newspaper on the seat?
    b) Take the airsickness bag out of the seat back pocket and let him shit in it?
    c) Take him to the GODAMN BATHROOM.

    Feel free to make more questions :)

    • Dr Sun

      Do you support West Ham, Liverpool or Manchester United ?

      Are you a NRA member ?

      Have you ever remotely piloted a drone ?

      do you think the first President of America was George Washington ?

      Is the World series like the world cup ?

      a yes to any, immediate passport revocation and world wide travel ban

      • Probotector

        “a yes to any, immediate passport revocation and world wide travel ban”

        Why?

        • Dr Sun

          As Tic says, some people should just not be allowed to travel.

      • Teacher in China

        Agreed!

  • pink panda

    rubbish!
    i’d kick their ass, if i were the air hostess.
    i hate people make toilet dirty super much.
    i never leave toilet dirty to next person even just malls toilet.
    also i dislike smelly mouth people most.

    • IsurvivedChina

      That Google translator is working wonders for your English!

      • pink panda

        hahaha!
        yours not much better either, hahaahaha!

        • IsurvivedChina

          okay……

  • Lei Feng’s Hat

    There are more ‘bad’ people than ‘good’ people in China. [Citation not needed]

    And then it’s just the law of numbers: For every 1 good person there are 100 bad people. For every 2 good people there are 200 bad people. With the population of China being what it is, this ratio between the good and bad soon becomes humongous.

    So, bless your hearts good citizens of China, but you’re not going to win the game.

    Kai can stand tall and deliver one of his long, long, Internet-breaking middle of the road essays. But he’ll always be outnumbered. Standing on his left will be the Beijing beauty spitting out a pile of sunflower seed shells (utilizing the special sunflower seed groove she’s grinded into her front tooth), and standing on his right will be the bedraggled grandparents holding their precious grandchild over a trash can (in a shopping mall – because an airplane was unavailable) so it can take a crap.

    And so, these days, any and all Chinese who have enough money – are doing there best to get themselves and their families out of China. They know the deal. They can see the future. And, they tell you, ‘I love China’, as they flee to the airport with their bags packed and under their arms.

    The good people of China know they can’t win the game.

    • Dr Sun

      must have taken you weeks to write this, you must be proud.

      • Lei Feng’s Hat

        It took about five minutes. Does my use of proper sentences and paragraphs unnerve you?

        • AasimirSeraph

          “But he’ll always be outnumbered.”

        • Dr Sun

          No but your ignorance does

  • Karze

    5000 years of Chinese civilization and 75 years of Maoism comes to this.

    • IsurvivedChina

      Never ceases to amaze me that Mao could convince millions of people that Communism was the right for of government for them but he couldn’t teach them how to use a toilet properly!!

  • krak

    so…

    A dog poops in a plane they make an emergency landing,

    A Chinese boy poops in the plane they ignore it.

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/odd+news/dog-poops-on-flight-causes-plane-to-make-emergency-landing/article/385237

  • christina

    yuck. I feel sick just thinking about it

    • Dr Sun

      Dont eat the Fish

  • JabroniZamboni

    The proverbial shit really hits the fan again. This behaviour is by far the one that grinds me down the most living in China. Only this week I had to yell at a grandmother and her kid due to him laying down a deuce in the building’s lobby. The kid was at least 5 years old…

    She didn’t even pick it up. This is not an isolated occurrence; this happens several times a week in the “garden” I live in. It’s like they need leash laws. Reprehensible.

    There is a defecation protocol ffs. I was amazed to find out that many Chinese like to shit with the bathroom door open as to not be trapped with the smell. It is considered ok to impose that on others. WTFBBQ?

    • Dr Sun

      damn glad I live in Yunnan

      • JabroniZamboni

        I don’t live in a hovel either. This behaviour is not tied to socio-economic status.

        Guangdong has the word dong in it.

        • Alex Dương

          Gone native, have we?

          • JabroniZamboni

            Full blown cowboys an injuns.

          • Alex Dương

            Since you said “Guangdong has the word dong in it,” I was thinking more along the lines of you hinting that you’ve become an Easterner as opposed to a Westerner :)

          • JabroniZamboni

            I’ve been here too long lol.

    • Surfeit

      When you yell at someone for doing something wrong, it puts you in the wrong. That’s the mindfuck I can’t compete with.

      • JabroniZamboni

        I’m usually pretty chill and try to respect that I am a guest here. Once in awhile, the buildup can get to you and cause a slight bursting at the seams. My Chinese is still pretty basic, I didn’t call them names, and simply implied that “that isn’t a toilet” in a very loud stern tone.

        Every time someone calls me a lo wai on the street, I sing 80’s songs at the top of my lungs. I once “Hammer danced” across Shennan Blvd.

  • Yes!

    For every one reported pooping on flights, trains and buses, there are probably 1000 more unreported.

    • mr.wiener

      In this age of smart phones ya really think so?
      If a turd falls in the forest does it make a sound? You betcha, the sound of a camera shutter.

      • Alex Dương

        I rolled my eyes at first, but to be fair to someone whose comments I have strongly disagreed with in the past, if he’s talking about local or at least within-country flights, trains, and buses, then there may be some underreporting, though he’s probably still grossly exaggerating it.

  • Irvin

    I wished I did that when I was a kid, I never taken a dump in a plane before, and to this very day I’ve never even poop in the lavatory yet, even on 12+ hours of flight…..maybe it’s a psychological thing….I just don’t feel safe pooping in a plane.

    It’ll remain one of the things in my bucket list that’ll never be fulfilled, but knowing someone else did it at least brought me some tiny bit of satisfaction.

  • satuon

    Well, the Chinese talking about face aren’t the same Chinese as who are doing the “shit”.

  • That’s the product of Mao’s Cultural Revolution intellectual cleansing right there altogether with the commercial opportunism of Deng Xiaoping. Some Chinese people went from having fuck-all nothing to being extremely rich. I am not generalizing and I won’t.. many times I heard of the richest Chinese being the most uneducated. Unfortunately and I say this for all the people in this world, unlike what they believe, technological advance is not a parallel of natural selection. So when it comes to education having a projector in your classroom connected to a computer that belongs to a VPN hasn’t changed the fact of most students not even learning how to learn, or at least contemplate, and being able to go shopping to Europe doesn’t exactly make you smart enough to be able to see the difference between two giant signs “Coach” and “1st Class” at Beijing airport, like a few Chinese girls I saw once when I was boarding to go to Frankfurt.
    This is not worker class or middle class Chinese. This is super rich I don’t give a fuck about anyone and my little emperor can shit wherever he wants and I can’t understand what anyone says and I don’t care either – kind of Chinese.

    It is not wrong to be rich. It is wrong to be stupid

  • Perseus Wong

    There are really two kinds of Chinese:

    1. Hua Ren. The overseas Chinese pre-communist diaspora that see themselves as the representatives of China’s superior ancient culture.

    2. Nong Min + Da Lu Ren. The mainlanders who had their their connection to 5,000 years of civilizing Chinese etiquette and Confucian ethos wiped out by five decades of Communist madness. Made worst by their sudden recent introduction to dog eat dog economy.

    • Zappa Frank

      does not seem to me. hua ren are not the pure Chinese culture since they lived long in foreigners countries and where somehow disconnected from the mainland.. and da lu ren are not necessary like you said.. Besides, culture is not something unchangeable, even the communist period is part of the Chinese culture, for good or bad. About superior culture I think is questionable..

      • IsurvivedChina

        Never underestimate the power of a large group of stupid people. Those who fled the Communist and made a life overseas still hold onto a more pure form of Chinese culture – a culture that Mao and his goons systematically destroyed. The mainland Chinese culture today is but a fraction of what it once was.

        • Zappa Frank

          the communism is also part of chinese culture, the culture never stop to evolve, else probably a man of Tang dinasty would think Qing dinasty is not pure chinese culture, but corrupted…
          the culture of overseas is inevitably infulenced a lot by the countries where they have lived. Some abc cannot speak chinese at all, dress like americans, think like americans..are americans. Or are americans only when is convenient and are ‘the most pure’ chinese when is convenient overwise? Besides chinese culture? Which? the one of their place of origin in the best case (but really in the best case)..
          Maybe we may say Taiwan preserve something more of old chinese culture, but even there is highly questionable. The truth is that the old chinese culture, like all old cultures, is dead, or better is changed, and the way is changed in the mailand is different from the way it changed in HW, TW or oversea

          • IsurvivedChina

            I agree… cultural difference aside I am sure most over seas Chinese would never allow a child to take a dump on an airline seat.

        • Ari Schmit

          And this ladies and gentlemen, is how you express your inherent complex of inferiority.

  • Defacating on an airplane seat, or in the street, is disgusting, but it is unlikely to cause any permanent harm to anyone. On the other hand, airborne toxic heavy metal particles, levels of which are ten to twenty times higher in China’s air than in US air, cause permanent brain and nerve damage to children growing up in such a polluted environment, leading to lower intelligence in Chinese children. This is a tragedy which deserves more attention.

    • IsurvivedChina

      So can I come around to your place and take a dump on your carpet? As important as environmental concerns are I find your bringing them up in this thread a little distracting. The child should have had the civic decency to use a toilet. Any one who doesn’t find shitting on a seat disgusting has no brain.

  • Da didi

    What’s their reason for pooping in the plane seat? I don’t understand why you would. I lived in Luhuitou village in Sanya for about 6 months and the parents there would tell there kids to go to the front door and piss out into the street if they needed to go, instead of using the toilet. I could understand if they had western sit down toilets that the kids couldn’t reach, but they all had hole in the floors, so what was the reason.

  • Rick in China

    Along the lines of this story, I saw something even more shocking in recent news…

    “A Minnesota man and his two sons were asked to leave a Southwest Airlines flight after the man sent a tweet complaining about being treated rudely by a gate agent. Duff Watson said he was flying from Denver to Minneapolis on Sunday and tried to board in a spot for frequent flyer privileges he held and take his sons, ages 6 and 9, with him, even though they had a later spot to board the plane. The agent told him that he would have to wait if he wanted to board with his children. Watson replied that he had boarded early with them before and then sent out a tweet that read ‘RUDEST AGENT IN DENVER. KIMBERLY S. GATE C39. NOT HAPPY @SWA.’ Watson told TV broadcaster KARE in Minneapolis on Wednesday that after he boarded, an announcement came over the plane asking his family to exit the aircraft. Once at the gate, the agent said that unless the tweet was deleted, police would be called and the family would not be allowed back onboard.”

    So, apparently, old chinese people encouraging shitting on a seat – ‘ask them to stop’, local dude tweeting that he found an agent RUDE, kicked off a plane.

    • mr.wiener

      I’d want a happy medium somewhere between the Agent abusing his authority and the stew doin’ nothin’ ’bout the poo.
      “Duff”, did his parents name him after the beer on the Simpsons?

      • Rick in China

        Every time I think about the kid shitting on a seat, it’s just baffling and hilarious to me. “stew doin’ nothin’ ’bout the poo” made me chuckle a bit just now too. :D

        • mr.wiener

          Personally if I was one of the passengers I’d probably want to see the old buzzard curb stomped [proud grandparents of defecating child that is]…being cooped up in an aluminum tube can bring out the worst in people.

    • Probotector

      How does a tweet about the behaviour of airline staff warrant summoning the cops?

      • Rick in China

        Oh – it doesn’t – at ALL. I just thought that incredible over-reaction juxtaposed nicely with this seemingly ‘oh well’ when non-English speaking (or liars who just pretended not to, which is more likely) parents let their kid shit on a seat in a full cabin.

        One thing I was thinking about – the quantity of shitters on seats in China. I do proclaim, I have come to a conclusion – I estimate that approximately 130,000 shits occur while on public transportation in China each year, and this is not an isolated incident. Anyone care to challenge? :D

        • Probotector

          How’d you come up with that figure?

          • Rick in China

            Oh, I’m glad you asked!

            The many news articles representing how there was a new fad with many long-train-ride mainlanders dawning adult diapers to avoid the shitty train toilets.

            If you consider the articles’ representation of how popular it seemed to be plus the ridiculous number of people, in China, who take long-distance bus rides, it seems a very conservative figure to estimate a couple hundred thousand people shitting in their seats with their adult diapers let alone 130,000.. I’m trying to give the benefit of the doubt in that at least some recognize the act as disturbing at best.

            So, I suppose, mainlanders encouraging their child to shit on a prepositioned paper in their airplane seat seems normal for the Chinese social-norms, no? Wait.. that’s about to be called out as a ridiculous generalization where I’m a prejudice China-hater, who: has lived here for over a decade, has a local wife (who is as disgusted as I am over these types of incidents), has a half-breed child, and has invested in property amongst _life in general_ in this nation.. Yep! :D

            Can’t criticize the place in which you live, else, if you don’t share the domestic skin colour, you’re labelled a prejudice asshole I suppose.

  • Ken Morgan

    What goes around comes around. Foreigners often have a mistaken belief that the English are super polite well mannered and would never do things such as this. They are dead wrong, the pooping on public transport? feet on seats, urinating and spitting in the streets is quite normal in the UK. Just go visit any major city centre and have a look, it reaches a peak around Friday midnight but it still happens to a smaller extent during the day time.

    • IsurvivedChina

      So your Ok if I sit next to you on a plane and chuck a dump on the seat?

      • Ken Morgan

        Not really but I’ve had this happen on a train (in the UK).

        • denvereen

          Really? Please for the love of god tell me that didn’t happen in Bolton/Manchester?

    • Probotector

      No it’s no ‘quite normal’, it’s reprehensible, and the people that do such things give the nation a bad name. I know what you mean by the Friday night stuff, that’s commonplace, and being drunk is not an excuse (although British society thinks it is). However, the culprits for the rest of it are probably thuggish chavs/piss heads who have no respect for anyone, or certain foreign immigrants who have a different social attitudes and/or are ignorant of the polite values and conduct that are expected in that society. Typically, though if anyone’s kid dumped ass in public, people would find it reprehensible… although your average Brit would probably just mutter about it under their breath and bitch about it to friends later on, instead of confronting the issue there and then, being the cowards that many of them are.

    • jon9521

      You are referring to drunken teenagers on a Friday night. Yes urination sometimes happens on buses and some trains. No excuses for them. But none of those persons would poop on a plane. That is another situation entirely

  • commander

    Defecation on the newspapers on a seat inside the flying plane is tantamount to an terrorist attack, the offensive odor paralyzing central nervous systems of all people abroad, including pilots–an act that could trigger a catastrophic airplane crash.

    The elders prodded his grandchild to relieve himself is compared to a mastermind of the terrorist attack.

    He should have been charged for endangering public safety by abetting the terrorist attack.

  • loki

    Too much BS to reply to in one article. Its China, language, culture, history can’t be used to apologize for the way people act now. Most of the country is online or have friends or have been in public. They have been taught by others, how to act and what is acceptable and what is not. That being said . YES, one person shitting on a newspaper in the cabin of an airplane says a lot about the race as a whole.

    That man reflects the society that he has been living in. He has been taught that his actions are completely acceptable. and that he was in the right, without any regard for rules or common courtesy. Based on what I have experienced in China over the last 11+ years, is that most if not all Chinese have 2 sides, that are clearly in direct conflict with each other.

    While in public alone surrounded by people with which they don’t know. they don’t give a fuck about anyone or anything spitting and throwing trash everywhere.

    But when around people of importance like work or nice restaurants. they can change and hold back those urges, at least until they get outside again.

    While I am not saying they are all monkeys, they certainly have trouble being polite and courteous when doing so doesn’t directly return an obvious benefit .

  • Surfeit

    Note: This image was included in the NetEase article but depict an older
    incident of a child who defecated in the aisle of a plane, and is thus
    not related to the incident described in this article.

  • Boris

    Subway selling Halal meat is in areas with high number of Muslims living there, which would make business sense. I can see why some would see it as ‘sheer PC appeasement madness’. We should not be selling any foreign food either in England. It should be pie and mash or shepherd’s pie. Pizza? Burgers? It’s PC gone mad!

    • Rick in China

      How dare an American sandwich chain sell Halal meat to muslim crowds! I’m an atheist white English man, and require all stores selling products in any neighbourhood in my country to cater to my kind, regardless of the demand in the community in which the store operates. Afterall, I only view the world in a myopic self-centred way!

      /sighs

      • Probotector

        The halal meat issue is not about Halal meat existing in the UK in principle. If Muslims want to prepare meat in that way, they should have the right to do so. What Boris was referring to is the scandal that Halal meat is being sold to people without their knowledge, (as in it’s not written on the men or on the packaging) thereby depriving them of a choice to refuse to partake in meat that was slaughtered, as many would agree, inhumanely. Many people would argue that they’re being forced to accept the Islamic way of preparing meat, when they may not agree with the principles of Islam.

        I do disagree with him however that “We should not be selling any foreign food either in England”. A lot of that tastes good.

        • Rick in China

          Na man, I think Boris and I were making similar comments – through sarcasm – about how it’s silly to be ranting about the sale of halal meat in some supermarkets/food chains..

          I didn’t realise there was a scandal where the meat was not identified as “halal”, but in reality, I think that’d just be a poor business decision – if you’re selling halal meat in a muslim neighbourhood you’d want to advertise it as such to attract those customers, otherwise what would the point of getting/selling halal meat be in the first place?

  • Misiooo

    Hi Xijinping, time for a formal reaction.

  • Boris

    Reading this once again, you will find the reaction to this different to the reaction to the HK incident a few months ago. In that people had an issue over what happened and the animosity between HK and mainlanders may have played a part. Taking all that out, it seems that the netizens do feel that such actions bring shame on them. To be honest, the younger generation can change this “habit” but it will take time. Changes always do take time and education might help (though when it comes to education, it seems CCP have focusses elsewhere).

    My main issues with things like this is that it is done when a toilet is available or in a very public area. If a toilet is available, use it. If not, then find a discrete place. If the kid is too young, keep it in diapers when out and about.

  • Kin Łichíi’nii Tsoh

    Oooh SHIT. (>_<)

  • KW

    wait a minute, let’s take a second look at this story …

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/child-poop-airline-seat_n_5631011.html

Personals @ chinaSMACK - Meet people, make friends, find lovers? Don't be so serious!»