Foreigner Passes Out on Shanghai Subway, Causes Panic

An unconscious foreigner in a Shanghai Line 2 subway car incited a panic.

From NetEase:

Foreign Passenger Loses Consciousness in Shanghai Metro, Passengers Run Away Without Any Helping

When a laowai on the Line 2 Metro lost consciousness in his seat, none of the surrounding passengers rendered assistance and instead ran away in a hurry, causing passengers in the subway train cars to the front and back to panic and rush out of the train car door, with one even falling over himself… Yesterday, from the two typical passenger panic case studies published by the Shanghai Metro, this reporter discovered that passengers overreact to sudden incidents, blindly following the crowd, making secondary disasters/problems extremely likely. Metro authorities once again exhorted passengers to not panic, stay calm, and react rationally when encountering situations.

Three train cars of passengers flee after laowai faints

According to surveillance footage, at 9:34pm on the 9th, a male foreign national passenger suddenly but gradually fell over to his right side as the train entered the Jinke Road station, his head practically on the middle-aged woman passenger beside him. Within seconds, he first laid down on the bench and then rolled off onto the floor when the train car braked to reduce speed [entering the station], apparently having lost consciousness.

Witnessing this, five passengers in the seats across from him suddenly got up and fled. In less than 10 seconds, the train car was completely cleared out, leaving only the laowai passed out on the ground. Surveillance video shows that because someone shouted “something’s wrong!”, the passengers in the train cars forward and aft also flocked to get out. One middle-aged male passenger even fell down, but fortunately got back up without being trampled, while another middle-aged woman had run into a screen divider.

When the station platform attendant rushed in, the laowai had already regained consciousness and got up on his own, then exited the train car.

Female passenger’s smoldering mobile phone causes passengers to frantically flee

The other case of passenger panic occurred on Line 8 last month on the 18th. As passengers were boarding, the mobile phone of one middle-aged female passenger in one train car suddenly began emitting smoke. At first, passengers beside her smelled smoke and covered their noses. Then someone said there was a fire, and there was even someone who said an explosion had occurred. At that moment, the train car had not yet closed its doors, and within seconds, passengers fled out through multiple train car doors.

During this exodus, a male youth dropped his mobile phone under the station platform, never to be found again, while two passengers accidentally fell. Ultimately, the female passenger with the smoking mobile phone also exited the train car, but there were no major problem.

Metro officials: Passengers must not blindly follow the crowd when encountering sudden situations

Metro operators expressed that the most worrisome are situations such as crowding, trampling, pushing, falling, and lost property. Frantic fleeing on train cars or station platforms cause secondary disasters/problems, often with effects even worse than the original instigating incident. As a result, Metro authorities call on passengers to not panic, remain calm, and rationally respond or request assistance.

In addition, when a passenger collapses or some other situation, nearby passengers should immediately take notice and provide assistance, as that would also avoid the spread of false information inciting extreme reactions.

Comments from NetEase:

西门大淫 [网易广西南宁市网友]:

Is it because people are afraid of Nanjing judges or afraid of some virus? Looks like our ethics has already completely degenerated!

网易山西省手机网友 ip:117.136.*.*

When a person collapses, they can be helped up, but when human compassion has collapsed, it can never be helped back up.

蔣石介 [网易天津市网友]:

Don’t run. Laowai don’t extort/scam people.

不正常人类研究所主任 [跟贴评论团]:

When human compassion has collapsed, how can it be helped up?

网络小清新 [网易广东省广州市天河区网友]:

A people/nationality that doesn’t even dare help up someone who has passed out yet still has the nerve to call for the extermination of little Japan.

网易北京市手机网友 ip:124.193.*.*

This is an age where people live in fear/apprehension.

网易广东省江门市手机网友 ip:125.92.*.*

Looking at this, I really don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

黄易UFO [网易北京市手机网友]:

China’s so-called most developed city, most modernized city, has reflected one of the lamentable sides of the country’s people. In China, the more developed the area, the more cold and apathetic the people are, even worse than the villages and rural countryside.

网易马耳他手机网友 ip:88.203.*.*

Should their conscience not be condemned?

网易北京市手机网友 ip:123.121.*.*

Next time when there are not seats in the subway, I’ll just pretend to faint/pass out.

The story of the unconscious foreigner in the Shanghai Line 2 Metro is also a trending #hashtag# on popular Chinese microblogging social network Sina Weibo.

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • Karze

    5000 years of culture demolished by Mao has turned Chinese into cold heart $$ grabbing.

    • Guest

      To be fair though. Neither of us were there before Mao. If a man fell over in the street pre 1949, would someone have bothered to help, or do we just expect those days were better…

    • Alex

      To be fair though, neither of us were there before Mao. If a man fell over in the street pre 1949, would someone have bothered to help, or do we just expect those days were better…

      • Zappa Frank

        to be fair I doubt a falling man would receive any help in many places.. definitely is nothing Chinese only.
        What is strange is that so many people got scared.

        • Rick in China

          I don’t know. It’s definitely not *just* a Chinese thing, but I would like to think that in many places, many people would have the immediate reactionary response to at least get close and ask if the guy is alright, ask if they can help him, etc. Not freak out and run away so fast they run into fuckin’ walls and trip over themselves like he’s a grenade…

          • Teacher in China

            For once, I can safely say that this would NEVER happen in Canada (unless there were some clear circumstance like he was foaming at the mouth or there was smoke billowing out of his underwear)

        • Strangerland

          I’ve been to countries where the locals advised me to be wary of robberies where the person fainting actually have cohorts that would rob you dry or even rape and snatch your organs. Being extorted is one things- but I am amazed that in third world countries there are so much distrusts over fainting strangers. A friend of mine just got back from African country near Afghanistan, and he told me the locals advised him that if he sees a fainting person- a guy or a woman- just walk by. Especially if you don’t know them. Apparently being samaritan can make you kidnappiń target over there. That nowadays viruses like Ebola spreads fast don’t help matters, people are worried.
          As for China, coupled those things with the Nanjing Judge incident as cherry on top, and you get the idea. Wouldn’t surprise me either if they’re afraid of being “extorted” by the laowai- the westerners’ sue-happy culture(I look at you Americans) is starting to be infamous too I think. An asian friend often shared me “amazing news” about these sue-happy incidents, like he couldn’t believe US court is dealig with people suing everything under the sun for every little things too. Like that guy who sued a company for causing him “mental distress” because he got expired water bottle. Or that woman who sues a company because she got unsatisfying product. Etc etc.
          Sooo, yeah. I’m not buying this to be an exclusive only-in-china thing. I do hope we can do something for this kind of incident though- maybe a sign to ask help when you’re fainting somewhere that can show strangers you’re safe person to help? A bracelet which generally mean “I won’t sue” maybe?

          • Kai

            Wait…there are African countries near Afghanistan?

          • vincent_t

            I was reading his comment seriously until “African country near Afghanistan”. No offense, but epic fail.

          • Strangerland

            Sorry- sorry my bad- I don’t mean to sound stupid- though I did fail geography alot back then- I was trying to be vague about the place, and the first country I think about when I think of Middle East is Afghanistan. The country he went to was volatile in recent years so I’m sure you all know about it.
            Isn’t Africa and Middle East just like, side-by-side anyway? Hahahaha.

          • Kai

            Haha, no worries, we all make mistakes and have brainfarts, and yeah, the Middle East in general is right by Africa.

          • helsic

            African country near Afghanistan… yeah dude.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            sue-happy americans? Oh right, and where exactly would a lao wai american sue a chinese person? in China? “africa?”

    • Who Gin Tau

      the harmonious society strikes again

      • Gordon Gogodancer

        That’s a good line..do you mind if i use it for my wechat?

    • Insomnicide

      Do you blame everything in the world on Mao?

  • b duck

    o, next time i pretend to pass out ! haha!

  • Guest

    So the article makes no mention of whether the guy was OK or what happened to him but “One middle-aged male passenger even fell down, but fortunately got back up without being trampled” Well that’s good to know…..

    • Kai

      When the station platform attendant rushed in, the laowai had already regained consciousness and got up on his own, then exited the train car.

  • Amused

    How the hell did he manage that position?

  • Amused

    He’s been reported like a traffic obstacle.

  • Rick in China

    Oh, my.. “One middle-aged male passenger even fell down, but fortunately got back up without being trampled, while another middle-aged woman had run into a screen divider.” That sounds SO EPIC. I really wish there was video. Sounds like a clip from a comedy.

    • mr.wiener

      I your missus said that, but she wouldn’t know which shows would she? I’d be interested to see that

      • Rick in China

        I will ask – I think she usually has SCTV on. I saw the clip about the foreigners/teachers/illegal ish and ‘scam’ price English lessons, it was playing shortly after I got home from work on a SCTV channel yesterday. The other stuff about bacterial infections intentionally shipped over here, I’ll try to get more info on that, seems *INSANE* to me…

        • mr.wiener

          Thanks bro.

          • Rick in China

            It was SCTV, I asked for more information, she just said it was on SCTV news channel this week and they were talking about foreigners selling product into China and intentionally including infectious bacteria up in the express packages. Maybe some Chinese searches can turn up more..I couldn’t find anything like it in English anywhere.

        • Teacher in China

          SCTV….? Did they interview Eugene Levy?

          • David

            lol

        • Wodowsan

          When I first arrived in China I first worked for a training school “Owen” My “VIP” students were paying 400 per hour for my lessons. I was being paid 50 per hour, and if I were five minutes late, since the buses were not always on time, (Many times I would show up 20 minutes early sometimes five minutes late) and even when I made up the time they would fine me three hours salary. Of course they also never paid me extra if my classes ran longer. Perhaps I should have gotten one of those illegal foreign teacher’s jobs where they pay you so much.

    • Guang Xiang

      Chinese propaganda sure sounds antiquated, yet sadly it’ll work for the majority of the populace.

    • Teacher in China

      A business associate of my wife’s sent her a website filled with hateful garbage about laowais in China, spouting the usual nonsense that they’re washouts in their own countries and probably carry STDs and all that. I’ve asked her to sever ties with that person.

      • Guang Xiang

        that business associate is just jealous

        • Teacher in China

          Agreed. And he’s an old man, too, like over 60. No chance, buddy.

          • Guang Xiang

            Damn, that’s a weird demographic to display such vitriol; I was expecting an unmarried woman.

          • Teacher in China

            I think he had been hoping to get some….totally came out of nowhere since before that he had just been a friendly helpful old guy. Got a screw loose I guess.

        • Gordon Gogodancer

          yep

      • Rick in China

        Yeah – my wife had the same thing, she had an argument with someone then cut them off her weixin, and her friend posted the usual rant just like you mentioned I suppose thinking it’d somehow be painful even though my wife *lives* a reality that proves it is all nonsense, it’s probably a cut’n’paste job going around.

      • Gordon Gogodancer

        hehe i noticed some Chinese men make it their holy duty to try and break up Chinese/Foreign couples. It’s quite pathetic but what can you do really? Fight all those insecure pricks? I tried, it’s a waste of energy. The only thing you can do is making sure your girl/wife is one of the smart ones and doesn’t listen to crap

      • looking for the stars

        by any chance could you share that website, would love to be entertained for a hour. As well as being highly curious.

      • Wodowsan

        This just adds to what I have been trying to say on this site.

        • Kai

          All that proves is that there are Chinese racists and Chinese websites with racism against foreigners. No one needed you to “say” this, because no one denies their existence.

          What you have actually been trying to say is that X or Y is “racist” and others have argued why they think X or Y isn’t. They weren’t arguing that there is no racism in China. You passing yourself off as trying to say there is racism in China but getting rebuffed for it is a completely dishonest misrepresentation of the disagreements you have been involved in with other commenters.

    • Wodowsan

      And yet there are several on this site that insist there is no effort by the Chinese government to sow bigotry and belligerence towards non-Chinese, especially the Japanese and then the Americans, making racism in China a growing problem not a problem most other civilized modern nations are attempting to address and combat.

      But pointing this out makes me “anti-Chinese”, an “idiot”, a “racist”, and a “bigot.”

      I fear this problem in China will only get worse. It is one major reason I left and why I do not recommend others to go there for work, business, or even tourism during any international differences between China and other nations.

      The Chinese government will only fan the flames of bigotry even more so during international grievances resulting in, for example, the Anti-Japanese riots of 2012 and the anti-American riots of 1999 and 2001.

      In comparison, when the Twin Towers in New York and the Pentagon were hit on 9/11 and more Americans died that morning than when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The American government came out saying how “Islam is a religion of peace” and reprisals should not be taken out on Muslims in America. They did not want to repeat the shameful American ant-Japanese response after Pearl Harbor.

      Racism and bigotry is a problem in all nations. Our world is getting smaller and smaller, we need to make efforts to combat it, not inflame it, or we will find ourselves in a conflict that will dwarf both previous World Wars combined. The Chinese government is not helping the situation.
      The BBC has reported that another near miss between an American surveillancespy plane and a Chinese fighter jet, has caused another near miss, It was reported the fighter came as close as 10 meters. Another possible American riot in the making?

      http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-28905504

      The world is not Chinese vs. foreigners or us against them. It is each of us and all of us.

      • Kai

        You are being incredibly dishonest.

        And yet there are several on this site that insist there is no effort by the Chinese government to sow bigotry and belligerence towards non-Chinese, especially the Japanese and then the Americans, making racism in China a growing problem not a problem most other civilized modern nations are attempting to address and combat.

        Are you willing to specify who these people are and quote exactly what they said to “insist there is no effort by the Chinese government to sow bigotry and belligerence towards non-Chinese, especially the Japanese and then the Americans”?

        Those people articulated why they felt the specific 2012 Anti-Japanese protests were not simple random racism but incited by the political incidents of the time. I actually argued against them by pointing out that racism was still a part of those riots because of their targeted nature against the Japanese. They still did NOT “insist there is no effort” by the Chinese government to (more accurately) fan nationalism against specific countries, usually Japan and the United States.

        You are dishonestly misrepresenting their position.

        But pointing this out makes me “anti-Chinese”, an “idiot”, a “racist”, and a “bigot.”

        You were called those things by those people NOT for pointing THAT out, but for your OTHER remarks that ARE arguably “anti-Chinese”, idiotic, racist, or bigoted.

        Again, you are dishonestly misrepresenting the nature of the disagreement and accusations made against you.

        we need to make efforts to combat bigotry, not inflame it,

        Are you challenging me to quote your history of comments that arguably inflame bigotry? Are you really sure you want to go down this path?

        The Chinese hyper-nationalist that defend it are not helping the situation. Problems cannot be solved if we refuse to even acknowledge there is a problem and condemn those that point out the problems.

        You shouldn’t accuse people of being Chinese hypernationalists just because they disagree with you on certain things. You actually need to prove nationalism and difference of opinion alone is insufficient. You have to point to content in that opinion that is actually “hypernationalistic”. You have not done so. You are just calling people names.

        Problems cannot be solved if we refuse to even acknowledge there is a problem and condemn those that point out the problems.

        People who insist on making inaccurate to false claims should be condemned. People who engage in thinly-veiled, poorly argumented, yellow-peril fear-mongering should be condemned, because they are as guilty of sowing “bigotry” as the Chinese government is.

        • Wodowsan

          Kai, methinks thou dost protest too much.

          • Kai

            You protest one thing. I protest another. We’re both “protesting”. The amount I protest is directly correlated to how much you protest, so if I protest “too much”, it is because you are protesting “too much”. What now?

          • Probotector

            I just looked through his comment history over the last few days up until I last spoke to him and I can’t find a single comment that is racist, bigoted or dishonest. You really need to stop trying to silence people’s criticism of China simply because you don’t like to hear it or because it’s not presented in a way that is up to your pedantic PC standards of ‘honesty’. The only one being dishonest here is you, in that you are trying to vilify all criticism of China as being based on ‘hyperbole’ ‘generalisations’ and ‘intellectual dishonesty’, followed by threats of exposing and shaming the author by calling their comment history to everyone’s attention You always fail to realise that said criticisms are simply an opinion, formed and validated by one’s experience in China that, as an Asian person over here, you can’t accurately understand or appreciate, and therefore you are all too eager to dismiss them with the aforementioned excuses. You are welcome to disagree, but stop attacking us all over our motivations and understand that we base out opinions on real experiences that we see and feel each day we live here in China.

          • Kai

            The Chinese are not interested in any type of win/win situation.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1545664849

            [China] is also an amoral society that believes everything is alright to do as long as you don’t get caught.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1546153288

            You really do not have any prospective or idea what you are saying, I think you just anti-American.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1546476998

            …which is amusing because of this other comment of his soon afterward:

            Your personal attacks sound much more like a teenager. If you disagree with my points, then point out where I am wrong.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1546652769

            Instead of pointing out where someone is wrong, he makes a personal attack that they are simply “anti-American”.

            In the following comment…

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1547146243

            …he laundry-listed a bunch of false hyperboles to dishonest claims, such as:

            The only successful business in China have been franchises.

            Other business that have tried to do business in China have had a terrible track record.

            Instead of just telling me I am using hyperbolizes please give examples of foreign companies that are successful in China.

            …that he subsequently had to backpeddle on after I addressed each and every one of them.

            Here’s a doozy: in regards to the 2012 anti-Japanese protests…

            They were clearly mostly orchestrated street theater by the government. If you look back at the footage of the protesters clashing with the police they were mostly young men with military haircuts.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1547245390

            His only “evidence” for his claim was a single cherry-picked photo that wasn’t even sufficiently dispositive. He eventually backpeddled into saying he only thinks it is “clear” to him and others, but refused to offer any supporting evidence for why such a conclusion is “clear” to him or others.

            I would also not recommend going [to China] to work, unless you want to go mostly for the experience and realize you will not make what is promised you or even written in your contract.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1547388206

            …which is yet another example of a hyperbole he knows to be factually false but which he dishonestly indulges in.

            Oh, here’s a gem:

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1549732336

            …in which he thinks a laundry list of anecdotes about poor safety in China is sufficient to make his hyperboles about poor safety in China no longer “hyperboles”. One of his anecdotes was a plane that turned back due to a safety issue with the plane, thinking it reflects poor safety upon China because the issue should’ve been discovered on the ground, never contemplating that issues occur in mid-flight necessitating turning back all the time around the world.

            He thinks personal anecdotes are sufficient evidence for broad generalized and absolutist assertions, similar to you.

            Also similar to you:

            Your desire to seem to want to discredit them is starting to make me think that your motivation is much more than just trying to moderate and make sure things are balanced. I am speculating your motivation are more nationalist, or racial, or ideologically based.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1552662051

            …in response to me continuing to challenge his false claims (which he repeated multiple times despite having already been corrected and provided correct information). Instead of pointing out where I am wrong in disagreeing with him, he dishonestly resorted to a personal attack, suggesting I am biased or racist. Instead of arguing why his falsehoods are correct or true, he simply called me a nationalist just for articulating why a variety of his statements and claims are wrong and presenting evidence for it.

            More dishonesty from the same comment:

            So, I assume, Kai, you will now passionately try to convince the readers of this site that all my experiences did not happen. So they will think that China is a land of milk and honey, with only friendly, honest, respectful, and kind people to the visitors to their shores.

            Dishonestly misrepresenting my disagreement, my position, my intentions, all with a generous amount of unfair hyperbole.

            These are the obvious ones from the most recent discussion I’ve had with Wodowsan spanning just the past week.

            The fact is, I don’t think he intends to be racist or bigoted but he HAS made remarks that are arguably racist or bigoted in their implications. While others have accused him of being racist or bigoted as a result, I actually defended him on some and tried to explain (repeatedly) why his remarks could be seen that way. They could be seen that way because he indulged in unfair hyperboles and generalizations for which he has no substantiation but subjective anecdotes guilty of the misleading vividness fallacy.

            A lot of what Wodowsan explicitly says strikes me as a person who genuinely wants to be a decent guy and who is fair enough to proactively recognize faults and shortcomings in his own country or elsewhere. However, this does not change the fact that he has made many objectionable remarks and failed to argue or defend them in an intellectually honest fashion. Especially dishonest is this latest incident of him categorically misrepresenting and effectively slandering other people. That is simply not cool.

            Now, let’s get back to your criticisms of me:

            You really need to stop trying to silence people’s criticism of China simply because you don’t like to hear it or because it’s not presented in a way that is up to your pedantic PC standards of ‘honesty’.

            I am not trying to “silence people’s criticism of China”. I am challenging statements that are demonstrably false or unfair. You are misrepresenting me as Wodowsan has and as you have too often been wont to do.

            It’s incredibly hypocritical for you to criticize “PC standards” when you use “PC standards” if it benefits you.

            The only one being dishonest here is you, in that you are trying to vilify all criticism of China as being based on ‘hyperbole’ ‘generalisations’ and ‘intellectual dishonesty’, followed by threats of exposing and shaming the author by calling their comment history to everyone’s attention

            No, dishonesty is this entire accusation of yours. I don’t try to vilify all criticism of China. I often agree with them, when they are intelligent, accurate, and reasonable. I do vilify unfair “hyperboles”, “generalizations”, and “intellectual dishonesty”. More importantly, I always articulate and substantiate why.

            I do threaten and make good on my threats to substantiate my accusations of other commenters using their own words and commenting history as evidence, because I believe it is honest to actually back up what I say with actual evidence instead of just false claims.

            Unlike you.

            How many times now have you accused me of this or that? How many times have I asked you to prove your accusations by citing and quoting my own words and comments? Have you ever done so? When my comment history is completely public and open for you to review? No, not once. You just throw accusations at me and never dare to follow-through. All you do is slander.

            No one should feel “shamed” by their comment history unless they have a guilty conscience. You have a guilty conscience about your commenting history, which is why you have hidden it from the public. I and so many others don’t hide our comment histories because we either aren’t ashamed of what we have said or are intellectually honest enough to take responsibility for them if they become an issue.

            You always fail to realise that said criticisms are simply an opinion, formed and validated by one’s experience in China that,

            You fail to realize that expressed opinions are not sacrosanct and are subject to disagreement, objection, and censure. You fail to realize that subjective experiences are not a substitute for objective truth or absolve one’s responsibility to be fair, rational, and reasonable.

            as an Asian person over here, you can’t accurately understand or appreciate, and therefore you are all too eager to dismiss them with the aforementioned excuses.

            This is just a racist argument. This is the equivalent of dismissing your criticisms of China because you are a “white/British/whatever person” who “can’t accurately understand or appreciate [why things are the way they are in China], and therefore are all too eager to dismiss” the points made in disagreement or censure of your criticisms. You deride other people’s exceptionalism yet wrap yourself in it when it suits you. This is hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

            You are welcome to disagree, but stop attacking us all over our motivations

            Oh? And you’re not saying this to @wodowsan:disqus for what reason? Is he not attacking others all over for their supposed motivations? Why are you being a hypocrite? Why the double-standards?

            Just like my response to Wodowsan, we are ALL protesting something and we are ALL disagreeing. You cannot arbitraily declare your own opinions and remarks or those you idenfity and side with as off-limits to the simple act of disagreement, criticism, and censure that you yourself enjoy directing at others. You cannot criticize others and demand that others not criticize you.

            and understand that we base out opinions on real experiences that we see and feel each day we live here in China.

            Please understand that I and others base our opinions on real experiences that we see and feel each day we live here in China or otherwise AS WELL. You cannot simply assert your opinions to be completely valid and unassailable just because they are based on personal experiences.

            Frankly, I don’t even understand how you could make such an argument without realizing this obvious rebuttal.

            Would a black person’s claim about racism in the UK automatically be completely valid and unassailable just because he argues it is an opinion based on real experiences that he has saw and felt each day he has lived in the UK? No, fuck no. The CONTENT of his opinion needs to be evaluated. To the extent that the content of his opinion is unwarranted or unjustifiable or indefensible, his opinion should be criticized as such, not simply accepted.

            It is your responsibility to back up what you say. It is other people’s responsibility to back up what they say. What you are saying may be about what others are saying. What others are saying may be about what you are saying. Everyone is doing the same thing and everyone is responsible for backing up what they say.

          • Probotector

            Blah blah, so the point is anything is dishonest and whatever, if it does’t meet your criteria of acceptable. Do you really think there exists a script for expressing one’s opinion without pissing somebody off? That’s the nature of freedom of expression, sometimes people say things you like, and sometimes they don’t; you just role with it. Stop trying to police everyone’s opinions.

            That being said, I assume you are paid for being the King of the Mods, hence your enthusiasm for the role. I wonder, do they pay you by the number of words you type in your comments, you know, like a newspaper columnist is? This would explain the astronomical cumbersomeness of your screeds.

            How do you find time to write all this stuff, aren’t you busy working or something, or is it all just ready to go in your head?

          • Disney English

            Why did you enter into the discussion if you did not wish to discuss any of the issues at hand?

          • Kai

            Blah blah

            Stop behaving like a child.

            so the point is anything is dishonest and whatever, if it does’t meet your criteria of acceptable.

            Stop playing dumb. Something is not “dishonest and whatever” because it “doesn’t meet my criteria of acceptable; something “doesn’t meet my criteria of acceptable” because it is “dishonest”.

            You intentionally reversing the two is, again, dishonest.

            Do you really think there exists a script for expressing one’s opinion without pissing somebody off?

            No, there is no script. There are however plenty of ways and plenty of precedent for expressing an opinion without it being needlessly false, inaccurate, unreasonable, inflammatory, or offensive. The only reason anyone would argue that it is impossible to express an opinion in a more intelligent and reasonable fashion is because they are too LAZY or DISHONEST to do so. You are making excuses for yourself.

            That’s the nature of freedom of expression, sometimes people say things you like, and sometimes they don’t; you just role with it.

            Freedom of expression means people can say what they want. It doesn’t mean OTHERS have to roll with it. In fact, it means OTHERS can EXPRESS why they WON’T roll with it. It means OTHERS can EXPRESS why what you say is wrong or objectionable. Freedom of expression is NOT freedom from disagreement or criticism. Expecting others to “roll” with however you want to express yourself is actually restricting THEIR freedom of expression. You cannot expect freedom of expression for yourself while denying it for others.

            Stop trying to police everyone’s opinions.

            Competing in the marketplace of ideas is not “policing everyone’s opinions.” You are not “policing” Chinese people’s opinions when you criticize the shit they say. Likewise, I am not “policing” your opinions when I criticize what you say. Stop being a hypocrite. What is wrong with you?

            That being said, I assume you are paid for being the King of the Mods, hence your enthusiasm for the role. I wonder, do they pay you by the number of words you type in your comments, you know, like a newspaper columnist is? This would explain the astronomical cumbersomeness of your screeds.

            How do you find time to write all this stuff, aren’t you busy working or something, or is it all just ready to go in your head?

            Right, so when you’re unable to refute my criticisms of your comments and behavior, you resort to irrelevent ad hominems. Should I suggest you are paid for the “enthusiasm” you show for the amount of “China bashing” you engage in on cS? Should I question where you find the time to do all the “China bashing” you do? That’s ridiculously dishonest.

            If you don’t like others objecting to what is objectionable in your comments, then figure out a way to stop including objectionable shit in your comments. You are literally whining about and then personally attacking others over not being allowed to say whatever you want without others disagreeing and expressing their disagreement. Grow up. The “problem” is not always in “others”. Self-reflect. Take responsibility for yourself and your own speech. Evolve. Most of all, stop being a blatant hypocrite.

          • Wodowsan

            “Would a black person’s claim about racism in the UK automatically be completely valid and unassailable just because he argues it is an opinion based on real experiences that he has saw and felt each day he has lived in the UK? No, fuck no. The CONTENT of his opinion needs to be evaluated. To the extent that the content of his opinion is unwarranted or unjustifiable or indefensible, his opinion should be criticized as such, not simply accepted.If I am telling you my personal experiences and of others I have know it is not “intellectually dishonest” it just happens to be the truth.” – A lot of emotion in there Kai.
            I would say it would especially if the BBC had Anti-Black television shows air all the time. And reported only how awful African nations are, and how Britain and Whites are perfect. I would say there is a major problem when the government controlled media and education system promotes belligerence towards other nationalities.
            Here a question for you, Kai, are you saying the Chinese Communist Party does not use propaganda against the Japanese, and the Americans, especially when there is a political rift?
            Would you not agree that since China is homogenous society where most of the population has not connection with non-Chinese that their getting all their information from only one source. The Chinese Communist Party it can sway and even fan bigotry in them?

            And yes you are cherry picking and taking a lot of what I have said out of content. I did correct my wording that I should have said It was clear to me and others. I also sited historical examples of how the party has used street theater before. I also pointed out the difference of the make up of those protesting and on June 4th and those during the riots of 2012. Yet you cut all that out. You asked me why I claimed I think it was street theater and I did. The reason I even said at first it was government sponsored street theater because most of the Chinese I know did not take any part in it, most did not approve of it.
            You also left that out again. I said more than once that most Chinese are not racist or bigots, but that the problems of racism is larger there because of the lack of content with non-Chinese and the domination of the education and media by the party uses racism and uber-nationalism for their own self serving reason that clearly to me and others makes the problem much worse not better then in other nations, that of course also have the problems too.

            As for not doing business in China I gave many examples how I was personally cheated, know of other cheated in China and how over nine years in Taiwan. I was never cheated by any of my employers.
            I also gave you other proof of financial advisors making the claim not to do business in China. Yet you cut that out too.

            And you talk about my comments about the Chinese not being honest, yet you dismiss that fact that I mentioned that even the Chinese themselves talk about the “Trust Crisis” Do you dismiss that too and instead accuse me of being dishonest for even mentioning it? If dishonest is not a problem in China, why is it so hard to earn trust there? Why do the Chinese themselves talk about the “trust Crisis?”

            I could go on but then you will only claim I am giving another laundry list.

            A moderator should not be rooting for only one side. Although I do agree with you that people do have the right to challenge what I say. I welcome it. But don’t accuse me of dishonesty when I have only written my true experiences, what Chinese and others have told me of their experiences (hearsay you reply because you don’t want to believe any of it.) my graduate level studies of Recent Chinese history, and my comparisons of the difference between when I lived and taught university in Taiwan and in China. Which from my last understanding is populated also by Chinese according to the mainlanders. I do know many Taiwanese that would disagree with that.
            None of that you mention in your edited cherry picked laundry list.

          • Kai

            If I am telling you my personal experiences and of others I have know it is not “intellectually dishonest” it just happens to be the truth.” – A lot of emotion in there Kai.

            I think you jumbled up your comments into what you were quoting me. [Edit: Seems like you’ve noticed and edited your original published comment to fix some of this.]

            Assuming the “a lot of emotion in there, Kai” was referring to what you quoted me, I’m not sure what was so emotional about that. The only emotion is the emphasis on “content”. Oh, yes, there’s the “fuck” too, also for emphasis.

            In response to your remark about your personal experiences not being intellectually dishonest, I never said the telling of personal experiences is intellectually dishonest. Go re-read what I wrote and correctly identify what I said was intellectually dishonest. In fact, intentionally misrepresenting another person’s argument is intellectually dishonest itself. I’m hoping you simply misread and are not intentionally misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I’ve said.

            I would say it would especially if the BBC had Anti-Black television shows air all the time. And reported only how awful African nations are, and how Britain and Whites are perfect. I would say there is a major problem when the government controlled media and education system promotes belligerence towards other nationalities.

            What part of “The CONTENT of his opinion needs to be evaluated” did you not understand?

            No one disagrees that government controlled media and education promoting belligerence towards other nationalities is a problem. There is however a problem with you making unfair hyperboles such as suggesting that China reports only how awful other countries are and how it and its own people are perfect. China does not only report how awful other countries are and China does not only report how perfect it and its own people are. You are making hyperbolic claims on a site that has repeatedly and consistently contradicts such claims. Are you incapable of making fair and measured claims?

            Here a question for you, Kai, are you saying the Chinese Communist Party does not use propaganda against the Japanese, and the Americans, especially when there is a political rift?

            Here’s a question for you, can you quote ANYTHING I have said to suggest me saying this?

            If not, why the hell are you asking me this? This is a perfect example of your intellectual dishonesty. You accuse people of saying things they are not saying. You put words in other people’s mouths. You fabricate straw men to take the place of other people’s actual positions.

            Would you not agree that since China is homogenous society where most of the population has not connection with non-Chinese that their getting all their information from only one source. The Chinese Communist Party it can sway and even fan bigotry in them?

            Have I said anything to suggest I wouldn’t agree? More importantly, does this in any way justify your false claims and unfair hyperboles? NO. Valid criticism of one thing does not negate valid criticism of another thing.

            And yes you are cherry picking and taking a lot of what I have said out of content.

            No, I’m not. I proactively provided direct links to the entire comments so people can judge the context for themselves. If you want to argue I am taking you out of context, please go ahead and ARGUE it instead of just CLAIMING it. Please prove how I am taking you out of context.

            I did correct my wording that I should have said It was clear to me and others.

            Yes, you had to, because despite multiple attempts to defend yourself, you had to concede that you were making a claim you could not substantiate. Even now you have not substantiated WHAT makes it “clear to you and others”. You first asserted it was objectively “clear” to all, then eventually backpeddled to it just being “clear” to “you and others”, and still you have no substantiated how it is “clear” to anyone.

            I also sited historical examples of how the party has used street theater before.

            Which were? More importantly, if I cite that a person has made racist comments before, does that mean every comment thereafter is racist? No. Pointing out that something in the past was a lie doesn’t mean this one thing is also a lie. That isn’t proof. That isn’t substantiation. That is a fallacy.

            I also pointed out the difference of the make up of those protesting and on June 4th and those during the riots of 2012. Yet you cut all that out.

            I didn’t “cut it all out”, You pointed out the difference of make up in A SINGLE CHERRY-PICKED PHOTO. You also proceded to ignore all other photos I provided of the 2012 anti-Japanese protests because they clearly disproved your claim AND you ignored the fact that young males were the predominant participants in the violent clashes during Tiananmen. You cherry-picked and ignored facts and evidence that didn’t fit the narrative you want to believe.

            You asked me why I claimed I think it was street theater and I did.

            You did what?

            The reason I even said at first it was government sponsored street theater because most of the Chinese I know did not take any part in it, most did not approve of it.
            You also left that out again.

            I don’t recall you saying this at all. You’re free to quote yourself and link directly to the comment where you did so. Even if you did, how is this remotely dispositive?! The 2012 protests were “government sponsored street theatre” just because “most of the Chinese” you know did not participate and approve of it? WHAT?!

            Most of the Americans I know did not participate in or approve of the LA Riots, but that doesn’t lead me to think it was something like “government-sponsored street theater”. Most of the Americans I know did not participate in or approve of anti-Muslim harrassment after 9/11, but that doesn’t lead me to think those incidents were fake or “government-sponsored street theater”.

            There are 1.3 billion in China with a huge diversity of opinions and proclivities. Are you honestly arguing that because some Chinese people you know didn’t participate or approve of the 2012 Anti-Japanese protests it means there weren’t enough other Chinese who did? That they had to be false protesters hired by the government?

            Are you fucking kidding me? Is this really the height of your logic?

            I said more than once that most Chinese are not racist or bigots, but that the problems of racism is larger there because of the lack of content with non-Chinese and the domination of the education and media by the party uses racism and uber-nationalism for their own self serving reason that clearly to me and others makes the problem much worse not better then in other nations, that of course also have the problems too.

            And none of this is in any way relevant to what I am actually disagreeing with you over. So why are you repeating stuff that has no relevance to our disagreement?

            As for not doing business in China I gave many examples how I was personally cheated, know of other cheated in China and how over nine years in Taiwan. I was never cheated by any of my employers. I also gave you other proof of financial advisors making the claim not to do business in China. Yet you cut that out too.

            I didn’t “cut it out”, it simply isn’t relevant to what I disagreed with you on. None of these things invalidate my disagreements with you. None of the substantiate the hyperboles you made.

            As a self-proclaimed “educator”, you should have a better grasp of how to adequately substantiate claims. You should have better critical thinking skills than this.

            And you talk about my comments about the Chinese not being honest, yet you dismiss that fact that I mentioned that even the Chinese themselves talk about the “Trust Crisis” Do you dismiss that too and instead accuse me of being dishonest for even mentioning it? If dishonest is not a problem in China, why is it so hard to earn trust there? Why do the Chinese themselves talk about the “trust Crisis?”

            I talk about your unfair hyperboles, of which your comments about Chinese not being honest are examples. Your argument that Chinese themselves consider there to be a “trust crisis” in China does not suddenly make your hyperboles fair. The “trust crisis” in China does not make remarks asserting that “the Chinese are not interested in any type of win/win situation” and that China is “an amoral society that believes everything is alright to do as long as you don’t get caught” fair. Just like the prevalence of race-relations issues in American academia and media does not make the hyperbole “America is a racist society” fair.

            Not mentioning your attempts to justify your hyperbolic claims and assertions above is not me “cutting them out” or “dismissing” them. I am not mentioning them because I have ALREADY addressed them and pointed out how they do NOT justify you hyperbolic claims and assertions. I was challenged by Probotector to point out where you have made objectionable remarks. I did so. Why would I point out your poor arguments to justify them?

            I could go on but then you will only claim I am giving another laundry list.

            Because that is what you did. You laundry-listed personal anecdotes, hearsay, and cherry-picked examples as if they were sufficient to justify unfair hyperboles. It demonstrates that you do not understand that the crux of the disagreement is in your “hyperboles”, in your unfair exaggerations. Instead of revising your remarks down to being fair and measured, you insist on trying to defend unfair exaggerations. What is wrong with you? Why do you persist in being unreasonable?

            A moderator should not be rooting for only one side.

            What side am I rooting for? Can you actually quote and link to comments demonstrating I am “rooting” for one side? Why do you see this matter in a partisan “China vs. others” dynamic anyway? If there is a partisan dynamic, it is “fair vs unfair”, and I am “rooting” for the side of “fair”.

            Although I do agree with you that people do have the right to challenge what I say. I welcome it. But don’t accuse me of dishonesty when I have only written my true experiences

            I accuse you of dishonesty not for writing about your experience but for the intellectual dishonesty of the conclusions you argue those experiences as justifying. Do you really not understand the crux of my criticism even now?

            what Chinese and others have told me of their experiences (hearsay you reply because you don’t want to believe any of it.)

            “Hearsay” is the correct term. Whether I find it believable or not is irrelevant. The bottom line is that no amount of hearsay is a substitute for actual proof and facts. For example, you used hearsay to justify your claim that all businesses in China have to be joint-ventures. I pointed to actual Chinese laws and regulations about WFOEs to refute such hearsay and prove that your claim is wrong. Your mistake is in relying on hearsay to be dispositive. It isn’t.

            my graduate level studies of Recent Chinese history

            Unfortunately, a lot of what you have said about China and recent Chinese history is am embarrassment to those graduate level studies you apparently did. Please don’t try to argue that your statements are all correct just because you studied anything. The validity of statements is independent of your supposed education.

            and my comparisons of the difference between when I lived and taught university in Taiwan and in China.

            Your comparisons do not justify unfair hyperboles. How many times do I have to say this? No one is disagreeing with you about there being differences. People are disagreeing with your unfair exaggerations and characterizations of differences. Why do you not understand this?

            Which from my last understanding is populated also by Chinese according to the mainlanders. I do know many Taiwanese that would disagree with that. None of that you mention in your edited cherry picked laundry list.

            What does the disagreement of many Taiwanese about being characterized as “Chinese” have anything to do with my objection and criticism of the objectionable comments you have made? One more time, I am confident I did not edit or cherry-pick anything, especially not when I provide direct links to the source so ANYONE can verify what I am quoting and saying. Claiming is not the same as substantiating. Please substantiate. Refusal to do so makes the claim intellectually dishonest. Since you are guilty of claiming without substantiating, I am not wrong in accusing you of intellectual dishonesty.

          • Wodowsan

            Yes, I too need to edit especially when writing at 4am my time.

          • Kai

            That’s fine, I make the mistake of posting before proofreading as well and end up having to edit too. It’s just that I happened to see your original version and began quoting and replying to that. As I was doing so, you were probably already editing, but I didn’t see your edited version until I later refreshed the page. In order to avoid confusion, I added a note to make it clear that I was quoting and responding to your earlier unedited version.

          • Wodowsan

            Understood.

          • Guang Xiang

            That’s hella desperate if you consider Probotector as a genuine supporter of your stance.

            That said, I just feel like you haven’t been paying attention about what I mentioned about Western propaganda. Chinese propaganda is obvious, and you see a fair share of netizens calling them out. Now for the US, although the government don’t directly promote belligerence towards Muslims, we still have Western commentators sarcastically mocking Islam as the religion of peace in every piece about terrorism. There’s no need for the US govt to directly promote belligerence if prejudice towards Muslims is already established through other social outlets.

            “They did not want reprisals to take place against Muslims in America. They did not want a repeat of the shameful American ant-Japanese response after Pearl Harbor.”

            I can see why Chinese people call you naive.

          • Wodowsan

            Gunang Xiang, you have either not read my posts completely (in that case you are naïve to what I wrote), or you have and you are being intentionally dishonest.
            Where have I written there is no racism in America?
            I have repeatedly said America has racism and still does, but there is an effort to combat it. Not inflame it by the government.
            I even relayed my son-in-law’s experience with White American Police.
            Where have I said you can trust everything the American Media says?
            Again if you read all my posts you will see I mentioned that I had developed a course called “Media Literacy” that I first taught to American students at Bennington College and then later in Taipei for journalist students.
            The course was to teach students to be critical consumers of the AMERICAN media. That reporters often do not stick to the Who, What, When, Where, Why facts of news stories are not truly objective, they have subjective points-of-view.
            The advantage America has over The Peoples Republic of China, is the media is not government controlled, is not dominated by only one political party, it does not have a propaganda department, nor a censor board, and it does not block the internet (all though I fear that is changing.)
            Information consumers have a wide range of opposing views in a free market of ideas in America that the Chinese public can only dream of. You can get CCTV in America. You can read the People’s Daily, The Global Times, and the China News in Chinese and in English in America. The American government does not, and legally cannot, block those sites if they report anything the American government disapproves of. An action that has been often taken by the Chinese government. The Chinese government blocks, Facebook, Youtube, Tweeter, etc… all out because mostly they cannot control what is said on those social medias.
            Really find it difficult to believe you can understand the differences.
            Who sounds naïve or dishonest now?

          • Guang Xiang

            Where did I accuse you of saying that there’s no racism in the US? What I meant about the apparent presence of prejudice against Muslims is that without the need of a blatant propaganda department or blatant censorship, you can still push an agenda through other media. You might have disregard this part in my previous post: in US 90% of media is controlled by 6 corps, rendering it effectively as much potentially controlled by oligarchy as China. You’re severely underestimating the power of Western propaganda, but it’s only natural because of how powerfully advance it is. I used to be upset when a fellow Chinese told me how US propaganda exists, it’s just I’m not aware of it. Now I see what he means.

            Again, believing the US “did not want reprisals to take place against Muslims in America. They did not want a repeat of the shameful American ant-Japanese response after Pearl Harbor.” was that naive part that I was talking about. And your apparent failures in China continues to reflect that. And your entitlement to working extra hours should equal extra pay or coming in late for work should be fine cause you come in early most of the time reflects that as well. Coming in on time for work is your responsibility, not the public transport system.

          • Wodowsan

            And I did say to you are right that 6 companies do control 90% of the media in a problem. But there is no great American firewall you are able to freely access other news sources. And would you not agree 6 controlling 90% is better than only 1 (the Chinese Communist Party) and a effort to censor and block any outside opposing view points. Along with arresting those on social media that is allowed. I did have had three Chinese friend brought in by the police and threatened for their comments that did not pull the Party narrative. I have never heard of that happening to anyone I know in America. That is the difference. It is not perfect here. And I fear we leaning more towards the state of affairs in China, but there is still a major difference, or the American Feds would have been coming knocking on my door along time ago.
            You do not get fined three hours salary for missing 5 minutes of work in the States. It is actually illegal for an employer to do that. They must pay you for the time you give them. At most they can deduct you the five minutes worth of salary which is fair especially if you do not make up the time.
            I taught university in America, Taiwan, and China. Only China would find me for 5 minutes late. America and Taiwan never did, although l always made up the time and more often than not ran my classes late.

            I just taught a private student on Sunday. Her time was an hour and half , I actually went one hour over time with her, although I did not charge her parents for he extra time.

          • Rick in China

            “But there is no great American firewall you are able to freely access other news sources.”

            Well, except when wikileaks hit the presses. There is certainly ‘more’ of a free press, however it can be argued that with the way the media is currently represented there’s such a flood of ‘well controlled’ sources that most of the public doesn’t actually get their news from anywhere but the mouthpieces.

            “I have had three Chinese friend brought in by the police and threatened for their comments that did not pull the Party narrative. I have never heard of that happening to anyone I know in America.”

            People are being arrested for online posting in America these days. Students, even. I routinely watch The Young Turks and they like to mention this type of nonsense, which you likely wont see on the evening news.

            In many countries, if you don’t show up for work – they don’t necessarily dock your pay, but they do have the right to record the discretion and if they’re assholes (or looking for excuses), will warn you in writing..after a few warnings, fire you with cause. I suppose the general rule here is: learn their rules, suck it up and abide by them, or find another employer that meets your expectations a little better… or, provide so much value that they bend their normal rules because they _want you to stay_. A company who fines you 3 hours of pay for being 5 minutes late does not, in my opinion, respect or want you there.. so just move on rather than make a big deal about it.

          • Wodowsan

            I did move on.

            I gave them my notice that after finishing my courses I will be moving on. They accepted my letter of resignation in accordance to the wording of my contract. But then after the month was over they refused to pay for my last month of teaching for them. They even attempted to have my visa revoked. The University I switched to had higher powers that be in Foreign Affairs, so I was not deported. When I reminded them that they had promised to pay me if I finished the courses, their response was “Do you have that in writing we said that?” My fault for trusting their word.

            As for the internet, I did say before, I do think America is getting worse, and American government is starting to emulate the Chinese government. After returning to America I found things had gotten much worse here under our present regime.

          • Wodowsan

            I have done more research on WFOs. Part of my information before was dated and reflective and limited by my experience in the education industry (which is highly restricted) and my living in a second tier city in China(which are less open to WFOs.)

            My statement that a company could not be owned solely by a foreigner was true prior to China joining the WTO
            My statement that presently no companies could be solely owned by foreigners was wrong.

            Since China’s entering the WTO they have loosened restrictions on Wholly Foreign Owned business, and have been loosing those restrictions more recently.

            For example China has just announced in will now allow Wholly Foreign Owned hospitals, but in only 7 cities.

            http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-08-28/china-welcomes-foreign-hospitals

            There are still many important industries that the Chinese government will not allow to be completely foreign owned or even have a majority share of ownership. For example:

            Publishing, Internet companies, Mining, education, finance, auto manufacturing, audio-visual products, and more.
            http://media.mofo.com/files/Uploads/Images/120130-Foreign-Investment-Catalogue.pdf

            “Whether a particular project falls within the “encouraged,” “permitted” or “restricted” category affects the regulatory approval process the project is subject to and may affect what tax and other incentives may be available. In many instances, the Catalogue also specifies caps on foreign shareholding, by requiring that investment be in joint venture with a Chinese partner and in some cases capping the percentage interest of the foreign investor.”
            – Chinese Foreign Investment Catalogue

            Having said this, it is still not as open as the Chinese government advertises. WFOs must play by all the rules if they want to do business in China, unlike local Chinese business that often cut corners to cut costs and lower their costs structures. Creating a unfair advantage to domestic competitors.

            Most business in China still need government licenses and without Chinese partners it is extremely difficult to obtain them, especially if the Chinese see those business as major competitors andor in high profit sectors.

            Even having Chinese partners, if they are not the right partners with the right connection, you may still not be able to obtain the required licenses to actually do business in China.

            Small low profile companies, such as a small foreign owned restaurant, may fly under the radar without problems from the government. Yet if they become too successful, they could find they may be “required” to take on Chinese partners, leaned on to sell out, or be shut down for any minor law they may not have complied to that most domestic companies often do not.

            The government taking over or shutting down foreign companies does not happen often, but it has happened.

            So, Kai, I do correct myself, some of my information was dated, and was biased due to my being in education which is heavily restricted and my student that worked for FORD which is also heavily restricted in China .

            Yes, I know what you are saying (not you Kai, any one reading this) America is getting worse too, especially when it comes to its own over regulations especially from the EPA and department of labor, high taxes, certification requirements, insurance requirements. and more.

            I agree the American government makes it also very difficult to open a business here. Especially if you do not have large amounts of capital.

            But, those problems are for Americans too. Foreigners are not singled out. Government here still has it hands tied somewhat, and due to the separation of powers it is more difficult for regulations and laws to be changed.

            The American people still have the power to throw out those that are corrupt within government (even if they do not use that power more often as they should.)

            There are still a legal process the government is shackled by to hamper their abuse of its powers. I do fear though, after the Obama and Bush administrations those shackles on government have been weakened greatly. I would even say some of the links in the chains have already been broken.

            America is become a more restrictive government as China has been loosening up. It is actually one the reasons I decided to go to China. Knowing that they were moving away from Maoist China, I just discovered while I was there they had not moved away from it far enough for my liking. Upon returning to America it seemed to me America has inched closer to a centrally planned economy, favoring those that already have.

            The progress China has made I also know can change overnight just based on the whims of only nine families (or is it only seven now?) that solely control China and do not have to answer to the people since they have complete control of the PLA, the courts, most major resources, and the media.

          • Kai

            The information you’re quoting is at times referring to WFOEs and at times referring to joint-ventures. I hope you understand what you’re reading.

            Having said this, it is still not as open as the Chinese government advertises.

            That’s really up for debate. You’d have to point to what the government is advertising and how the reality doesn’t match. The government has never hidden and has always made it pretty damn clear that there are restricted industries and various regulations that apply to specific industries. Most of the people who run afoul of these have done so because they didn’t do their due diligence.

            WTO must play by all the rules if they want to do business in China, unlike local Chinese business that often cut corners to cut costs and lower their costs structures. Creating a unfair advantage to domestic competitors.

            Please check that you are using the right terms. Yes, WFOEs (not WTO) are often subject to greater regulatory scrutiny than local businesses. However, that’s pretty much the case everywhere, not just China. No, it isn’t fair, but it is your choice whether or not you want to enter the market as it is.

            Most business in China still need government licenses and without Chinese partners it is nearly impossible to obtain them, especially if the Chinese see those business as major competitors andor in high profit sectors. Many times if you do not have the right Chinese partners you will not get the licenses even if you follow all the rules.

            No, it is not nearly impossible to obtain the requisite licenses without Chinese partners. There are tons of WFOEs who have done it just fine. You are simply making assertions here without any actual evidence.

            Small low profile companies, such as a small foreign owned restaurant, may fly under the radar without problems from the government. Yet if they become too successful, they could find they may be “required” to take on Chinese partners, leaned on to sell out, or been shut down for any minor law they may not have complied to that most domestic companies do not themselves.

            Two responses: 1) you’re still just asserting something as fact without demonstrating it to be true, 2) again, it is your choice whether or not you want to enter this market. Many others have entered and navigated the market successfully. Your original claim that only franchises have been successful in China remains false.

            It does not happen often, but it has happened and can happen any time the powers that be choose it to happen.

            Same everywhere.

            So, Kai, I do correct myself, some of my information was dated, and most was due to the industry I was involved with, education, which is restricted still in China (vocational schools has just opened up to foreigners)

            Can you specify which of your information was dated? And then when you were given such information? Then we can ascertain whether it was reasonable or not for you to have believed the information.

            I already told you that you were conflating certain things about specific industries onto all industries, which was not exactly prudent of you to do. You shouldn’t have assumed what applies to one industry applies to all businesses in general.

            But, since the rules can be changed (nearly every year since China has joined the WTO, and the Chinese government still requires licenses to be obtained restricting business greatly, require much more so that WTO fall all the rules, unlike their domestic competitors, and companies have be shut down or seized in the past by government officials that desired the profits of the companies or eliminating them to protect their friends companies or their own.I would still highly recommend not opening a business in China under this present on-party system.

            First, regulatory rules about businesses are changed every year pretty much everywhere. Most of the time, they aren’t huge changes and only affect specific industries over issues that have recently become severe enough to rectify.

            Second, I posit that you’re exaggerating the variable nature of China’s regulatory environment. Likewise, licensing is pretty standard in the business world and no, they do not require Chinese partners to obtain.

            Third, yes, you face a risk of running afoul of government corruption and collusion in China, but you should’ve known that before deciding to enter the Chinese market. You should also recognize that the Chinese government is actually making things easier for a lot of foreigners trying to do business in China and are making improvements in regulatory oversight and the handling of business disputes. It is fair to recognize the shortcomings, but it should also be fair to recognize the improvements.

            Finally, you are entirely free to not recommend starting a business in China at its present state. I never disagreed with you doing so. I disagreed with you making inaccurate to false representations, such as about what businesses have had success in China, whether or not Chinese partners are necessary, and whether or not people will get what they are promised.

            In other words, you are trying to justify to me a subjective recommendation I never took issue with.

            Slowly, China is becoming more like America, but since there are no elections in China, that course can be changed overnight.

            I understand the point you’re trying to make, but I’ll counter with the fact that autocracies often can change things faster than democracies can. It is precisely for this reason that not everything is subject to voting. But as I said, I understand what you’re trying to say. I just want to point out how “accountability” and “responsiveness” isn’t quite as simple as you are presenting it to be.

          • Mark

            oh SNAP

          • Wodowsan

            I think you need to refresh yourself on your Shakespeare on what “methinks thou dost protest too much” means. It does not mean you should not disagree.

          • Do the English have as much trouble understanding what he wrote?
            I like Shakespeare, but it is time consuming. I often have to stop and look up exactly what he meant when he wrote those words. The common use/meaning of words have changed a lot since the 1600’s.
            I remember this one well…

            Shakespeare used “Protest” as “Promise” or “Vow”(different from our assumption of its use today)
            “The lady doth protest too much” is from Hamlet and means “the lady makes too many promises” (inferring…they are promises she can’t keep)

          • Wodowsan

            My memory of it from my Jr. High School and High School Shakespeare classes and theater classes was that the speaker was speaking of the promiscuity of women in general and the female character became extremely emotional, belligerent, and defensive to his statement.

            Which is why the male character responded “Methinks thou dost protest too much.” meaning she was trying to defend her own short comings even though the speaker was talking in generalizations and was not targeting the female character at all.

            Much like Kai seems to take too many of my comments as directed solely towards him.

            For example: when I ask him something like “Do you think…?” his response is “Where did I say that?” and then replies that my questions are unjustified and trying to set him up as a “straw man and I am being “intellectually dishonest.”

            When actually I am simply using the Socratic Method of logic to see where Kai and I can come to some agreement. I am often not accusing him of anything. If anything trying to point where may actually agree with each other and then be able to move our discussion forward.

            Yet, his hostile emotional responses make me think he is taking everything way too personally, which is why quoted the Shakespearian line.

          • Kai

            What kind of middle school or high school shakespeare classes had the line coming from a male character? It was by Hamlet’s mother, a female character.

            It seems it is you who needs to refresh his Shakespeare.

            It seems your usage of the phrase isn’t even in line with modern rhetorical usages. The phrase does not refer to defending one’s own shortcomings even though someone else is talking in generalizations. Here, if it helps:

            In rhetorical terms, the phrase can be thought of as indicating an unintentional apophasis – where the speaker who “protests too much” in favor of some assertion puts into others’ minds the idea that the assertion is false, something that they may not have considered before.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

            This modern usage is different from the original Shakespearean usage but also different from what you said you used the phrase for.

            Much like Kai seems to take too many of my comments as directed solely towards him

            For example: when I ask him something like “Do you think…?” his response is “Where did I say that?” and then replies that my questions are unjustified and trying to set him up as a “straw man and I am being “intellectually dishonest.”

            You’re conflating two disagreements into one.

            The first: when you repeatedly ask questions specifying “you”, you should not be surprised that the other person thinks you are indeed directing questions at them.

            The second: when you repeatedly ask if someone is denying things the other person has not said anything to suggest they deny, you should not be surprised that they’re going to ask why you are asking such questions.

            Your questions are “unjustified” because they are irrelevant to the issues in contention and are not based on anything the other person has said. You are creating a “straw man” when you project positions of possible denial onto others. Creating “straw men” is “intellectually dishonest”.

            When actually I am simply using the Socratic Method of logic to see where Kai and I can come to some agreement.

            That’s a lofty claim and one I’m not inclined to believe. Perhaps you can quote yourself and explain how the context in which those questions you made are arguably examples of the Socratic method. I have argued at length that they are appeal to emotion fallacies meant to defend your usage of what I consider unfair hyperboles.

            For example, when you ask if I deny that Chinese people themselves have felt there is a “trust crisis” in China, you are not using the Socratic method to get me to realize on my own there is such a thing.

            Why?

            Because I never denied nor said anything to suggest I deny that there are Chinese people who feel there is a “trust crisis” in China. What I did say is that your assertion that people “will not” get what they are promised or be paid what they are promised in China is an “unfair hyperbole”.

            Using the Socratic method to ask me the question you did will not bring me into agreement with you on the fairness of your hyperbole.

            If you genuinely think you were using the Socratic method, I can only say: you are doing it wrong.

            I am often not accusing him of anything. If anything trying to point where may actually agree with each other and then be able to move our discussion forward.

            Moving the discussion forward would’ve entailed you actually considering my specific and explicitly explained disagreements with you, not asking me if I deny things whose conclusions do not change whether or not your hyperboles are actually defensible.

            Yet, his hostile emotional responses make me think he is taking everything way too personally, which is why quoted the Shakespearian line.

            You really need to reflect on how you introduced hostility into our discussion.

            You are accusing me of being hostile in response to you laundry-listing questions asking if I deny this or that when nothing I previously said suggests I deny this or that. Do you not realize how that comes across as accusations?

            You are accusing me of being hostile in response to you accusing me of being a Chinese nationalist, racist, or ideologue for disagreeing with your unfair hyperboles and demonstratably false statements. Do you not realize how that sort of baseless name-calling is personally offensive?

            And yes, they ARE baseless because I have repeatedly asked you to quote anything I have said to suggest I am a Chinese nationalist, racist, or ideologue and you have repeatedly ducked doing so.

            You should not be surprised that I have at times since lost my patience with you. It is not honest to accuse me of being hostile without acknowledging how you have incited such hostility. You should be surprised that I take your accusations of me being a Chinese nationalist, racist, or ideologue “too personally“.

          • Wodowsan

            As I said “as I remember” meaning I may be wrong.

            You, Kai, are right I do need to refresh my Shakespeare, it was a very long time ago that I was in Junior high school and high school. Which I is why I pointed it out that was a long time ago. It was also the reason why I did not mention the characters’ names or even the play. Off the top of my head I don’t remember. I just remember the content of the line.

            Not remembering if the character was male or female does not change the content, it is irrelevant to try to make it sound as if what I am saying is wrong. It is makes you, Kai, SEEM to be nit picking and grasping for straws to try to discredit me any way you, Kai, can. At least that is the feeling I get from your, Kai, tone. I may be wrong, that you, Kai, are only trying to help educate us all on the details of Shakespeare, but since you, Kai, used the word “ironically” and how I need to “refresh” it does SEEM more like a personal jab.

            “You” is also used in the plural. Meaning it can be directed to more than one person. “You” the reader for example. Not just Kai.

            Actually I never directly accused you, Kai of anything. At best I have said I am starting to question or suspect your, Kai, motives due to your, Kai, passion. If you look back on my posts you will notice I have never made a personal attack on you, Kai. I have though later pointed out that you, Kai, have been taking my posts personally and you, Kai, have become emotional in your responses to me, which in turn has made me suspect your , Kai, neutrality as a moderator.

            The reason I have never quoted you, Kai, for being a Chinese nationalists (which I do not think is a bad thing / ultra-nationalism is I would say) is because I have never accused you, Kai, of being one.

            I may have questioned if you are one. Just as I may question if are you an American Born Chinese. It does not mean you ever said you were or not. It would be a question.

            I have actually never asked you what your personal heritage is, so I would not know if you are a Chinese nationalist or not. To me it is not important to the discussion. I don’t even know if you are of Chinese ethnicity. I assume you, Kai, are, but I could be wrong, and your ethnicity is also not important.

            Ideas are ideas. They should not be valued based on the color of the skin of the person that says them ( I am not saying you are saying that. I am just making a statement of my belief. It does not mean you do not believe it too, so don’t fly off the handle. I feel everything I post I need to add a disclaimer to it for you, Kai, so you do not get all hot under the collar and take it as a personal offense to you, Kai)

            Note: I am adding your name, Kai, when I use the word “you” so you, Kai, can understand when I am actually directing a comment to you, Kai. If I do not add your name, Kai, it means the use is not personally directed to you but the readers on a whole.

            I continue – Ideas should be judged on the merits of the ideas themselves. An idea is no more right or wrong if a different colored person says them.

            Ethnicity may at best only explain motives, but for an idea to be correct or wrong ethnicity is irrelevant.
            I fear you, kai, project too much into my comments. Read them again, slowly, My only direct comments to you, Kai, have been in your response to me, which are clearly and emotional and passionate in tone.

            I am getting under your skin, Kai. I am not trying to. I am actually only trying to have a discussion and sharing what I experienced and learned during my three and half years in China. I feel it is a cautionary tale to those non-Chinese considering traveling to the People’s Republic of China.

            I have no anger or hostility towards you, Kai. If you feel I do, it is your (see I didn’t say Kai, this Your is director towards the reader too) interruption, not my actual intentions or feelings. You, Kai, easily get annoyed how I say something, perhaps concentrate more on what I am actually saying.

            You are still not understanding the Socratic Method. Asking you a question about a point does not mean you have said anything about it. It is an attempt to see what you think the answers are. An attempt to establish common ground. To discover what we do agree the facts are. (again my use of “you” is directed to the reader it can also include you, Kai)

            Kai, If you want to continue your conversation with me, I welcome it. But I do strongly suggest that you take a break, take a few deep breaths, shake out all the bad feelings, and return with a clear head before doing so. Relax, you may find we are not as different as you think we are, and may discover we both actually want the same things.

          • Kai

            As I said “as I remember” meaning I may be wrong.

            You actually said “My memory of it…” Sure, that does make room for you being wrong. Even so, my reply would have been the same.

            You, Kai, are right I do need to refresh my Shakespeare, it was a very long time ago that I was in Junior high school and high school. Which I is why I pointed it out that was a long time ago. It was also the reason why I did not mention the characters’ names or even the play. Off the top of my head I don’t remember. I just remember the content of the line.

            Next time don’t be too quick to tell others to refresh their Shakespeare. You do understand that comment of yours came across as as a taunt, right?

            Not remembering if the character was male or female does not change the content

            Remembering who said the line is important for understanding the content. Your interpretation of the content was also wrong, as DavidisDawei pointed out.

            I assumed you were using it in the modern rhetorical sense, but then you said something to show that you weren’t even using it in the modern rhetorical sense.

            , it is irrelevant to try to make it sound as if what I am saying is wrong.

            It isn’t irrelevant to point out that what you said doesn’t actually mean what you subsequently said it means.

            It is makes you, Kai, SEEM to be nit picking and grasping for straws to try to discredit me any way you, Kai, can.

            No, it means you used a line thinking it meant one thing but it turns out that’s not what it means and have thus created a new communications problem.

            At least that is the feeling I get from your, Kai, tone. I may be wrong, that you, Kai, are only trying to help educate us all on the details of Shakespeare, but since you, Kai, used the word “ironically” and how I need to “refresh” it does SEEM more like a personal jab.

            You mean after your personal jabs here and here?

            I like how you are quoting “refresh” as if I used the word first. Dude, you seriously need to self-reflect.

            “You” is also used in the plural. Meaning it can be directed to more than one person. “You” the reader for example. Not just Kai.

            And it has taken you this long to claim that why? I took issue with your “are you telling me”, “are you saying”, “are you denying” questions right from the start, like over a week and countless comments ago. This is the FIRST time you have claimed you used “you” in the plural sense.

            As a result, I’m not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt at this point. Too much time has passed and it thus looks like you are grasping at straws rather than offering an honest explanation.

            Actually I never directly accused you, Kai of anything. At best I have said I am starting to question or suspect your, Kai, motives due to your, Kai, passion.

            Do you really think insinuation is any less offensive than outright direct accusation? It actually makes you look even more dishonest.

            If you look back on my posts you will notice I have never made a personal attack on you, Kai.

            I’ve linked to your comments where you made what I consider personal attacks at me already, which means I have looked back on your comments.

            I have though later pointed out that you, Kai, have been taking my posts personally and you, Kai, have become emotional in your responses to me, which in turn has made me suspect your , Kai, neutrality as a moderator.

            I took your comments personally after you personally attacked me.

            Insinuating that being emotional (aka, losing patience with your dishonest personal attacks) affects my neutrality as a moderator is also a personal attack.

            Let’s entertain this latest accusation: how has my neutrality as a moderator been affected by me being annoyed with your dishonest personal attacks against me? Am I suddenly banning Chinese trolls and not banning white trolls? Am I suddenly allowing African people to spam the comments section but not Eastern Europeans? What is it about my neutrality as a moderator that has come into question?

            Moderators are not forbidden from being emotional. They are forbidden from abusing the powers they have. Unless I have abused my powers, you are ultimately trying to argue that a moderator cannot disagree or be critical of your dishonest comments or behavior.

            The reason I have never quoted you, Kai, for being a Chinese nationalists (which I do not think is a bad thing / ultra-nationalism is I would say) is because I have never accused you, Kai, of being one.

            Wow, you are lying through your teeth.

            I am speculating your motivation are more nationalist, or racial, or ideologically based.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/69th-anniversary-of-japans-wwii-surrender-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1552662051

            This was already quoted and linked to, which means you read this and STILL proceded to claim you never accused me of being a Chinese nationalist.

            I may have questioned if you are one. Just as I may question if are you an American Born Chinese. It does not mean you ever said you were or not. It would be a question.

            “Speculating” is not questioning. To express speculation is to insinuate. Insinuation is a dishonest way to make an accusation.

            So is this:

            (starting to think it must be part of the talking points they give you at your meetings.)

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/foreigner-passes-out-on-shanghai-subway-causes-panic.html#comment-1557830980

            I immediately asked you what meetings you’re referring to. You have yet to answer me.

            I have actually never asked you what your personal heritage is, so I would not know if you are a Chinese nationalist or not. To me it is not important to the discussion. I don’t even know if you are of Chinese ethnicity. I assume you, Kai, are, but I could be wrong, and your ethnicity is also not important.

            You are lying and playing stupid now.

            In the very same comment as above, you accused me of “rooting for only one side”:

            A moderator should not be rooting for only one side.

            I asked you what side I am rooting for. You haven’t answered.

            I think it is abundantly clear that you have made accusations you cannot back up. I think it is abundantly clear that you are now lying through your teeth denying that you ever made such accusations.

            You say my ethnicity is not important, yet it is precisely my presumed ethnicity that led you to accuse me of being a Chinese nationalist, racist, and idealogue in response to my disagreement with your unfair hyperboles and dishonest argumentation. It is also why you, even above, insinuate that my ethnicity explains my “motives”.

            I fear you, kai, project too much into my comments. Read them again, slowly, My only direct comments to you, Kai, have been in your response to me, which are clearly and emotional and passionate in tone.

            What have I projected? Can you quote what I have written that you feel is a “projection”? Everything I have said about your comments has been backed up by quoting your exact words and linked directly to the source.

            I am getting under your skin, Kai. I am not trying to. I am actually only trying to have a discussion and sharing what I experienced and learned during my three and half years in China. I feel it is a cautionary tale to those non-Chinese considering traveling to the People’s Republic of China.

            Yes, being dishonest has a habit of getting under people’s skin. Why do you STILL not understand that in the course of you “trying to have a discussion” and “sharing what [you] experienced and learned”, you made claims that are false and objectionable remarks? You shared “ideas” and I judged your “ideas” on the “merit of the ideas themselves”.

            I have no anger or hostility towards you, Kai. If you feel I do, it is your (see I didn’t say Kai, this Your is director towards the reader too) interruption, not my actual intentions or feelings.

            Interruption? Do you mean interpretation?

            You, Kai, easily get annoyed how I say something, perhaps concentrate more on what I am actually saying.

            I get easily annoyed with people making unfair hyperboles and asserting facts that are actually falsehoods. I’m not going to apologize for that.

            I can ONLY concentrate on what you are actually saying, which are the words you have typed that I have repeatedly quoted when I point out something you have said that I disagree with. If you meant something else, it is YOUR responsibility to accurately communicate it.

            It is NOT my responsibility to preemptively interpret your words in a way that you SUBSEQUENTLY realize would be more defensible. It is YOUR responsibility to acknowledge that you rendered your earlier thoughts poorly and that you would like to revise what you said to better mean what you think.

            There is a reason why I am so dogged about quoting people when I express disagreement. It is precisely so people don’t accuse me of misinterpreting what they are “actually saying”.

            You are still not understanding the Socratic Method. Asking you a question about a point does not mean you have said anything about it. It is an attempt to see what you think the answers are. An attempt to establish common ground. To discover what we do agree the facts are. (again my use of “you” is directed to the reader it can also include you, Kai)

            I’m not going to repeat myself about this. I’m just going to point back to what I already said.

            Relax, you may find we are not as different as you think we are, and may discover we both actually want the same things.

            Oh geez, what do YOU think I think are our differences? Can you then quote what I have said to suggest that I think those are our differences? Can you then quote what I have said to suggest I think we want different things?

          • Kai

            Right, which is why I concluded Wodowsan was referring to the modern day rhetorical usage of the phrase and abstained from going for the low-hanging fruit he offered me. It wouldn’t make sense if he was using it as Shakespeare actually intended in that scene.

          • Kai

            Re-read what I wrote. I didn’t say it or that you meant that it means anyone should not disagree. You’re saying I protest too much and it inadvertently reflects something about me. I’m pointing out how the very same thing can be said about you, especially when you laundry list irrelevant anecdotes in repeated attempts to justify unfair hyperboles you refuse to back down from.

            You really need to read what other people are saying. You repeatedly misrepresent other people. Apart from this, your most recent offense has been against Guang Xiang, when you accused him of something he didn’t say. You need to be more conscious of when you are creating straw men.

      • Probotector

        The worst thing is getting lumped in with Americans when you’re not one. Now, I’ve no problem with Americans, but it’s demonstrative of the ignorance that many in China have of lumping all whities together as ‘Meiguoren’ (while simultaneously all too often failing to accept non-whites who may be US citizens as American). After I’ve informed them I’m not American, some of them even try to salvage face by saying “we think you foreigners are all the same “. That’s as ignorant as when a westerner says “Chinese, Japanese… same thing”.

        • Rick in China

          Recently I haven’t noticed being grouped in with Americans as frequently. It seems far more likely that the taxi driver or whatever will instead ask me where I’m from, rather than make a statement assuming I’m an American or from England.. which is a good thing. At least in Chengdu. :D They also all seem to like the fact I’m from Canada and have some good things to say about it – or about some people they know who immigrated/have children going there for school or some other “加拿大好” remark.

          I’m sure it still happens, just, I notice it happening a _lot less_..

  • Anark1

    9:30 on a Saturday night, too early to be this drunk dude. ^^

  • mike921

    Now I know how to get a seat…

    • Irvin

      I was thinking the samething lol

  • bB

    I would certainly hope that if I visited China and something happened such as this, someone would help me. Just as I would help a Chinese who needed help here in the USA

    • Chaz

      Nope. Ain’t gonna happen. Uness they need some guanxi or money from you

    • vincent_t

      some would help you, but very likely those offer their hands are foreigners. Don’t count on the Chinese.

    • Guang Xiang

      To be fair, not all ran away from the train (guy in a black star shirt) and there were a couple tending to him when he came to (which only took 20 seconds).

      But bystander effect still strong in China.

    • maggie

      This is more directed at the people replying to your comment than at you, but I think it’s a little unfair to blame the Chinese in particular. The bystander effect is strong everywhere – in fact, the reverse of this story recently happened in San Francisco where a Chinese woman was dragged off a bus to be robbed and none of the other passengers bothered to help her: http://blog.angryasianman.com/2014/08/violent-bus-robberies-targeting-asian.html

      • jxs9

        That’s more nobody wants to get injured trying to interfere with a crime. If you pass out on a subway they will most likely help you in the US. Not run like hell.

  • vincent_t

    “A people/nationality that doesn’t even dare help up someone who has passed out yet still has the nerve to call for the extermination of little Japan.”

    I am posting this on my wechat moment to give my ultra-nationalist Chinese friends a bitch slap in the face.

    • Guang Xiang

      Why are they on your friends list!?

      • Chaz

        So he can bitch slap them

        • Gordon Gogodancer

          lol

      • vincent_t

        bcoz they are pretty nice people when we don’t touch on politics or any topic related to China or Chinese culture.

    • b duck

      you married a chinese woman, right?

      • vincent_t

        Nope. My wife is not a local. Why asked so?

        • b duck

          to see if i can slap at your face too!
          hahaha!

          • Guang Xiang

            wut?

          • David

            ??????

        • BeetFarmer

          Your wife is not a local? That’s oddly specific. So that means she’s still possibly Chinese, right?

          What a side-step of an answer…

          • donscarletti

            “Nope” is pretty clear and unambiguous. He is saying that she is not Chinese.

    • maidanglao0kbs

      I’m very curious that how do you know the people who don’t even dare help up someone in the video used to call for the extermination of little Japan? You must have been mastered an amazing technology or magic of seeing through all of a person’s past just by watching them in video for seconds.

      Here is a statistics, there are more than 10000 bravely actions of helping others happened in China every year, and more than hundreds people died for helping others every year.

      At last, I against any exterminations of any nations and I think blindly following the crowd is a bad habit.

      • key

        Relax dude, did you see the quotation marks?

        • AbC

          I don’t think he even read the netizen comments.

      • vincent_t

        er, learn to read before comment next time?

        • maidanglao0kbs

          What I mean is, whatever you quote or original post this words. actually I know it’s not your original post, because I’ve been seen these words on Chinese Internet many times. What I want to tell you is that these words may can’t slap anyone in the face, because you can’t know that the people who fled are the same crowd of people who’d like to kill Japanese, unless you could make sure that your ultra-nationalist Chinese friend was in that video, or he did done something similar.

          Back to this case, I’m pretty sure that the key point of this case wasn’t indifference but “a timid woman + blindly following + several news of terrorist/anti-social attacking in public transportation system in the past several months in China”.

          Monday morning quarterbacks are always attend to assume that witnesses in an emergency have the ability to know what was going on clearly and could figure out an optimum reaction based on their rational analyzing, calculating and personal moral stand, but the fact is, only if the emergency is very clearly and common, like house on fire or car accident, otherwise, peoples always lack of information when they are inside the emergency.

          In this case, the crowd was lack of information, you should know that the witnesses haven’t watch the news yet at that time, they can’t know what exactly happened to that fainted man as you do, they can’t know if he got illness or got killed or just fall asleep.

          Most untrained people who have never faced a similar situation before will only get panic and lost their own decisions, then attend to copy the judgement and reaction of the people who have reactions before them, at this time, the people who react first has the key influence to the reaction of the whole crowd.

          Unfortunately, the first reactor in this case is a timid woman, she got panic first when the fainted foreigner fall on her shoulder ( if i was in her position i would have thought the foreigner was just fall asleep ), then her panic reaction influence the crowd, made them believe that there were something dangerous harmed that foreigner, and this dangerous thing would harm them too, so they fled, like anyone else in the world who believes themselves are facing the same situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO4EWrqOJBg.

    • donscarletti

      You posting this will do nothing to change the attitudes of anyone on your friend’s list.

      • vincent_t

        that is why it is called a bitch slap. You slap to vent your frustration, not to change something.

    • donscarletti

      You posting this will do nothing to change the attitudes of anyone on your friends list.

  • Insomnicide

    Ebola outbreak is in the headlines so maybe they’re running because of that?

    • Gordon Gogodancer

      yeah. “oh my god! a guy fainted, he’s white, he must be an American that caught Ebola after the virus was brought back from Africa or something. Run away! Run awaaaaay!!!
      It’s quite pathetic. But i do still understand why they do it. They don’t wan’t to get involved in anything that might be risky.

  • twelveways

    Great way to get a carriage to yourself :) Planking with a purpose.

  • KamikaziPilot

    You can’t make this shit up, I swear to god Chinese are so unintentionally funny. What’s the logic behind the panic fleeing? Afraid of being scammed, afraid he might have a deadly disease, afraid of anything out of the ordinary? I can understand not physically touching him, but running away as fast as their feet can carry them? OMG they’re running like it’s the ebola virus. Has anyone seen someone in China pass out like this? I just might repeat this experiment next time I go to China, I want to see their reaction.

    • vincent_t

      just make sure u hide ur wallet well when u do the stunt.

    • Irvin

      Recently there was an explosion in a bus in guangzhou, someone spotted smoke coming out of a box, everybody ran out the bus and stand at the station, 5 seconds later people die and got injured.

      You never know how serious a situation is until it’s over, if you decide to run, run far.

      • KamikaziPilot

        I can understand smoke being a good reason to run like your pants are on fire but are you really comparing that situation to a man passing out on a train? I don’t know, maybe they thought he was a suicide bomber and passed out because he knew he was going to die soon. Sounds reasonable.

        • Alex

          You say ‘sounds reasonable’ but we all know it’s still completely mental haha.

          • KamikaziPilot

            Yeah, that was sarcasm.

      • David

        I don’t understand. Everybody got off the smoking bus and stood at the station, why were they dead and injured 5 seconds later? I think something is missing.

        • Irvin

          Because they didn’t ran far enough, the explosion was powerful enough to injure and kill the people standing at the station.

        • Guang Xiang

          it’s so if it’s a false alarm they can get the best seats asap.

    • Zsari Maxim

      Yes Ebola.

  • Irvin

    Maybe it’s a shanghai thing? I’ve witness someone fainted in gz metro and nobody ran. It was a student, people just help her up, sit her down, rub some oil on her forehead and offer her food assuming she’s low on blood sugar.

  • LuoyangLaowai

    These people spend their free time digging thru the garbage, picking up who knows what kind of bacteria and whatever else and they don’t seem to think about that. But when a Foreigner passes out its like he has the black death. I would love to see a video of a Chinese passing out on a subway. I bet very few people would even move. Massive Paranoia here.

    • Guang Xiang

      Ever thought about how those garbage pickers end up in that situation? Be grateful that you were born into a better life.

      And if a bunch of people run in one direction, I guarantee you’ll be doing the same just to be safe. It’s a defensive mechanism.

      • habeasdorkus

        How the fuck did this have only as many likes as the crazy racist shit above?

  • LuoyangLaowai

    I’ve always wondered If I ever passed or had some accident in where I was

    unconscious in China if someone would try picking my pockets before I got help. Seeing this video I guess I have nothing to worry about.

  • SongYii

    Many of you are over reacting. If I see lots of people suddenly rush out of a train, and I can’t see why, I will assume others see a danger that I cannot, and I will follow the crowd. This isn’t Chinese, its a defense mechanism.

    Perhaps you have a case to call into question the behavior of people in the immediate area (especially those on the opposing bench), but it looks like nearly everygoddamnone on the train rushed out, and most of those just didn’t know what was going on.

    That said, I bet that foreigner had a really strange day.

  • Germandude

    On the video it looks like the girl panicked when the guy touched (fell) on her. Maybe she thought of a pervert. She then ran away and out of the train. People around her acting spontaneously, following her without knowing what happened.

    Not unlikely to see a similar effect in a western metro, considering the current worries on terrorism.

    • vincent_t

      Now that is a pretty good point. I don’t blame the passengers in other compartments. But those near the passed out guy who have seen what happened and ran, that is pathetic.

    • Kai

      Yeah, I originally thought of the pervert angle too.

    • Don’t Believe the Hype

      seems like an over-reaction no matter where you are

  • Amused

    I guess they thought,”Old scamming Chinese people are expensive as hell to pull off the floor, a Laowai one will bankrupt my family!”. Or something along those lines.

  • AbC

    “Don’t run, laowai don’t extort/scam people.”

    Haha. So true. Why would anyone want to extort someone earning 3000 kuai a month.

    Laowai (especially old ladies) only scam insurance companies and large corporations. The Chinese need to learn that suing an individual is no where as rewarding as suing a large conglomerate.

  • David

    Thank you for that.

  • David Fieldman

    5,000 years of history ! Why expect them to change overnight.

    • YourSupremeCommander

      Your comment also brings down your own kind. Educator? LMAO, pls.

  • NightKnight

    It’s because someone was yelling “something’s wrong”. given the terrorist attacks across China this year and the recent crimes on public transportation both in the Mainland and Taiwan, that scene is not out of nowhere, very dramatically, but still understandable.

    • NightKnight

      Most of comments here are missing the point, it’s not about foreigners, it’s not about morality, it’s just mass panic.

  • Rick in China

    That’s right — but I’ve heard that it’s mostly in southwest border towns and I think it’s largely due to intravenous drug use. Definitely a major issue that’s just not talked about.

    • Fumanchu

      not talked about by who Dr’s, Nurses , Public health officials in Yunnan or by foreigners on the internet ?

  • Markus P

    “Next time when there are not seats in the subway, I’ll just pretend to faint/pass out.”
    ^ LOL
    Seems like we need to run some trial faints to see what will happen now that this video has gone viral. Social experiments.

  • xiaode

    I teach my (girl)friend(s) here: if you get attacked… if you get in any trouble… if you really need help: run to the foreigners… the Chinese people won´t help you!

  • vincent_t

    No, i am posting it to make them proud.

  • Gordon Gogodancer

    Is that actually true?

    • BeetFarmer

      While there are certainly insane increases in STDs and HIV infection (mostly intravenous), they’re certainly not on par with some “African countries” (whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.

      So aren’t were recreating the same misinformation construct we’re supposed to be complaining about?

      Yikes. Some foreigners… (side eye)

      • Rick in China

        I think that the reference would be applicable only to very specific areas, and no, not EVERY African country is sitting at high 20% prevalence. There are some border towns that, I heard through a few-years-ago world AIDS conference of sorts held in Sichuan, are experiencing significantly high spread of the disease due to almost no education on the subject, and high increases in both intravenous drug use / unsafe practices concerning other ways to transmit body fluids between people. I would argue that, if you’re talking about those regions in specific, it’s absolutely an accurate statement to make. It’s just important to clarify that it’s not a “China” issue as much as specific to those regions.

  • Mateusz82

    Constant use of “laowai” slur throughout… *sigh* racist Chinese media is racist. Chinese netizens bitch about how the West “discriminates”, but how many Western news refers to Chinese by racial slurs?

    • Alex Dương

      Laowai is not a slur.

      • Probotector

        Perhaps not in its pure meaning, but to relentlessly refer to other people as ‘foreign’, based on the fact that they are racially different is divisive, and is often construed as disrespectful and condescending. Then there are the times that it is is uttered with accompanying pointing and laughing, (which happens all too often) in which case is clearly intended as an insult, and compounds the issue.

        • Mateusz82

          Exactly. Racial slurs are based on the way they are used. “Laowai” is used to belittle and insult people based on race and color. It is meant to separate “Us” and “Them”, with Han Chinese being “Us”, and anyone else being “Them”. The racial aspect is pretty obvious when people throw the word in the faces of people based on nothing more than looks.

          • Alex Dương

            The problem with almost all of your comments on race / ethnicity is that you don’t seek to actually get rid of the classification; rather, you just want to subvert it for your own benefit. For example, you aren’t really saying “I’m a human being; we’re all human beings!” You’re saying “I have the right to call myself whatever I want if doing so gets me better treatment, and you’re a racist if you think otherwise!”

          • KamikaziPilot

            I just have to say I tend to agree with you more on this topic than those you’re having a discussion with. I think I read you’re asian american like myself so it’s really no surprise that I identify with your point of view more. That said I believe this topic of what is and isn’t a slur, how racist Chinese are, is pretty subjective and depends a lot on perspective, hence why Rick, Probotector, and Mateusz82 are on one side and you, me and probably other Asians are on the other. Obviously words like “nigger” and “gook” are racial slurs but how about words like “oriental” (in the US) or “laowai”. The lines are a little more blurred then. While I think the other three posters do downplay the fact that they receive preferential treatment due to “racism” I’m not in their shoes so I can’t say definitively they’re wrong.

          • Alex Dương

            Yes, I’m Asian American too. I acknowledge that words have connotations, and this can make seemingly benign words offensive (e.g. “yellow people”). You have a good example with “oriental”; in the U.S., it’s considered dated (my father still uses the term) and offensive, but apparently in the U.K., it isn’t. And I know that “Asian” in the U.K. only refers to what we in the U.S. would consider “South Asian.”

            I think you make a good point about giving some benefit of the doubt, as I also cannot exactly put myself in their position.

          • Probotector

            “I think you make a good point about giving some benefit of the doubt, as I also cannot exactly put myself in their position.”

            I appreciate your fairness.

            In the UK however, it’s more people from the Asian subcontinent (India/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka) that we normally refer to as Asian, as opposed to ‘South Asians’ which might include those from SE Asia. Anyone, East Asian-looking would actually normally (and unfairly I might add) be referred to as just ‘Chinese’, which is ignorant, and it’s not something I’ve ever done. It’s correct that ‘Asian’ is applicable to all from that continent, so I don’t know why it’s not done so in different countries.

          • Alex Dương

            We in the U.S. call the “Asian subcontinent” “South Asia,” and it doesn’t include Southeast Asia (e.g. Vietnam, Thailand, etc.). I agree with you that “Asian” should be a lot broader than it is, but in both our countries, it’s used too narrowly. Dunno why.

          • Probotector

            A fair comment.

          • Rick in China

            That’s exactly the point, I’m glad you’ve got it.

            When you are on the side that uses (or less so on the side the term would not be commonly used against), you have no right to dictate how the people who are on the receiving end are to interpret a term. Especially when, obviously and definitively, the term groups you along with so much hatred and vitriol in media and internet, and obviously *can* be used as a pejorative… you are simply not in the position to try to ‘trump’ any argument made by those on the receiving end. That’s all there is to it.. glad you picked up on that. :D

            Just as a comparative here, it’s like me arguing that “calling a mixed male/female group GUYS at work all the time is perfectly fine, it doesn’t mean I’m only referring to the males in the group, I use it irrespective of gender.” — well, while I honestly kinda feel that way and in some circumstance see that other people (like, clients) do, so I can, but whenever anyone expresses or points out that someone may be feeling uncomfortable (or am referencing an unknown group), make a VERY big effort to exclusively mix it up, use a much more neutral term, or add “and girls” at the minimum to my references whenever I catch myself. Why? Because while I don’t necessarily see any problem with it because it’s really a term of neutral-gender endearment from my perspective and use, I can’t tell anyone who may be made uncomfortable or feel ‘less than’ as a result that they are wrong for feeling that way.

          • KamikaziPilot

            Yeah I’d agree that what carries the most weight are the opinions of the people who are the subject of such “slurs”. I mean there are obviously terms that everyone can agree are slurs but there are probably even more terms that not everyone can agree are slurs. Just today on the radio I heard a conversation about the American football team nicknamed the “Redskins”, which some consider a slur, but even in the Native American (who are the subjects) community, not everyone can agree if it’s offensive or not. And I’d bet not all foreigners will agree that “laowai” is offensive. Then what are we all supposed to do? When are we supposed to stop using a term? What if only 5% of the people it’s directed at take offense? What about 25%? What if it’s someone ridiculous who finds the term “Asian” offensive? I mean people can really be offended by almost anything it seems. I guess it just depends on how PC you want to be. That said, if someone tells me something I say to describe their race is offensive to them, I’d immediately stop using the term, without argument, although I may question them why they consider it offensive, just so that I can learn something.

          • Probotector

            I got the laowai treatment three times in 10 minutes today. The third time though, the guy actually asked me if I was Chinese at first. (I’m white btw). Each time they all got an earful, to which they were dumbstruck. I asked the second guy why he called me that, and he just said “so?”.

          • Kai

            Can you elaborate on the contexts in which these happened?

          • Probotector

            Well, Kai they were all more or less the same scenario of someone pointing me out to their friends and saying laowai. It’s more the frequency that it happens that’s the issue. The first was in a super market, the second was on campus (it’s really irksome how students are disrespectful to teachers on campus). The third was just plain weird, as the guy asked me if I was Chinese. He was an old man and, so I don’t know…

            I don’t believe in these cases it was intended maliciously, but as Matt was saying elsewhere, to be relentlessly labeled ‘the foreigner’ is dehumanising, especially in a situation where they should show you some respect.

          • Kai

            I understand being irked by the frequency. I just want you to be fair and avoid conflating such instances with those who are actually maliciously using the word “laowai” as a pejorative. A lot of white people are irked by being called gaijin in Japan or gringo in Mexico, but there has to be a differentiation between people remarking about you as a novelty and people actually trying to insult you.

            I don’t think referring to you as a “laowai” by a student on campus to their friends is necessarily that student being disrespectful to teachers. It would only be so if the student referred to you as a “laowai” intentionally as a pejorative. If he’s just using the term to identify you, it isn’t malicious and thus not disrespectful. If this student is the guy that said “so”, that suggests he has no idea why you were offended because he didn’t mean any offense in his use of the term in the first place. Or do you have reason to believe he was using the term maliciously and his “so” was a flippant “what are you gonna do about it” sort of retort? I doubt that’s the case but lemme know if it was because then you’d have an argument.

            As for the third guy, correct me if I’m wrong, but this old guy comes up to you out of nowhere and first asks if you’re Chinese and when you replied in the negative, he used the term “laowai”?

            I think you have cause to explain to people why you dislike being called or referred to as “laowai”. I don’t recommend you “give an earful” to those people who clearly meant no offense in their use. They’d see you as overreacting and it gives them a negative impression of foreigners. You can help them understand, but you should also proactively be understanding of why the term remains in mainstream use for many Chinese so you don’t take offense when none was intended.

            Please understand also that I know you living in less cosmopolitan and less sophisticated areas of China subjects you to norms that you find uncomfortable based on your own background. You suffer or put up with things that many other people have endured elsewhere, including Chinese people. I encourage you to keep this in mind and avoid jumping to generalizations about Chinese people not caring about others or looking down upon you. That’s just not true and you should have been exposed to enough evidence and enough other Chinese people to know that you shouldn’t carelessly make such an unfair generalization. It’s unfair to all the Chinese who are not guilty of it, and you are just begging for trouble in making it. Surely you see this exhortation of mine as fair and reasonable, right?

          • Probotector

            “I don’t think referring to you as a “laowai” by a student on campus to their friends is necessarily that student being disrespectful to teachers. It would only be so if the student referred to you as a “laowai” intentionally as a pejorative. If he’s just using the term to identify you, it isn’t malicious and thus not disrespectful. ”

            So referring to someone based purely on race does not make one superficial and demonstrative that all they can see in you is race? Is this not the definition of racism?

          • Kai

            Not conventionally, no. People refer to each other by race all the time in our world. It doesn’t necessarily mean all they see in you is race, it just means it overwhelmingly the most convenient adjective in an overwhelming amount of situations. Identifying or describing someone by their race or skin color is not inherently racist. Is describing someone by their gender inherently sexist? No. Context and intent also matter.

            I don’t understand why you initially seemed to understand that there are situations where “laowai” is not used in a pejorative sense but now seem to be going whole-hog into Mateusz’s ridiculous notion that the word is inherently pejorative and thus all uses of it is racism. You actually went from an intelligent, defensible position down to one that is intentionally ignorant and indefensible.

          • Probotector

            No I went from a postiion that you approve of to one that you don’t.

            “People refer to each other by race all the time in our world. It doesn’t necessarily mean all they see in you is race,”

            Yeah, but there’s a difference between calling me ‘white guy’ or ‘yingguoren’, and just calling me ‘foreigner’. Why? Because at least white guy at least has a qualifier that is more specific to me. Even so, what’s wrong with calling me ‘that guy’ or ‘him’ or the ‘person over there’, the point is, why does my racial makeup even have to come into play at all? Moreover, even those people who “refer to each other by race all the time in our [part of the] world” don’t need to do it, and probably shouldn’t, unless it’s just for the sake of identifying a specific individual by description e.g.

            ‘what’s that man over there doing?.’

            ‘which one?’

            ‘the black guy.’

          • Kai

            No I went from a postiion that you approve of to one that you don’t.

            Yes, you went from a position I considered intelligent and defensible down to one that is intentionally ignorant and indefensible. Of course I wouldn’t approve of that.

            Yeah, but there’s a difference between calling me ‘white guy’ or ‘yingguoren’, and just calling me ‘foreigner’. Why?

            Where do you see me arguing that there isn’t a difference?

            You are not arguing against what I am saying, you are arguing against a straw man.

            Even so, what’s wrong with calling me ‘that guy’ or ‘him’ or the ‘person over there’

            There’s nothing wrong and no one has said there is something wrong. So why are you saying this? It is just unreasonable to dismiss the utility of descriptors and identifiers in speech, which is the logical conclusion of what you are arguing.

            People should avoid descriptors and identifiers that are socially unacceptable, but you are refusing to understand how “laowai” is not considered unacceptable in Chinese mainstream society and THAT is why it is still often used. To change it, you have to convince more people to see it as unacceptable, which is entirely your perogative. But you shouldn’t accuse people of intentionally being malicious and offensive when they weren’t. That’s just making false accusations and it will hurt your effort to marginalize “laowai” usage in Chinese society.

            the point is, why does my racial makeup even have to come into play at all?

            With the understanding that “laowai” actually emphasizes foreigness instead of “race”, you can answer your own question by thinking of why race comes into play in speech outside of China as well.

            Moreover, even those people who “refer to each other by race all the time in our [part of the] world” don’t need to do it, and probably shouldn’t, unless it’s just for the sake of identifying a specific individual by description e.g.

            …and that was exactly how it was used in the above translated article. It was used for the sake of identifying a specific individual by description. It is a mistake to align yourself completely with Mateuzs because his position is that it was used as a racial slur. It wasn’t. You have to recognize where you and Mateuzs may have shared sentiments and where you guys necessarily differ.

            If you think, as he does, that the article was using “laowai” as a racial slur, then you have a very big problem on your hands.

            If you just want to say you would like Chinese people to stop using that term because you consider it offensive and they can surely use more specific and equally functional terms that you don’t consider offensive, that’s perfectly fine.

            But you need to stop treating me as if I am arguing against everything you believe or said just because I disagree about a specific thing with someone whom you for some other reason identify with. For example, I have sided with you and Rick against Alex about certain things in this discussion even though I identify with him for other things. I fear you are falling back onto an “us vs. them” dynamic instead of actually appreciating where you and I agree and where you and I disagree. You have generalized me into disagreement with you on everything when that is not the case, and that is leading you to behave in reprehensible ways against me.

            Just because I have and do disagree with you on certain things doesn’t mean I am always your enemy disagreeing with everything you have said. Stop treating me like that.

          • Probotector

            To sum up your position, you believe calling someone foreigner is a perfectly acceptable term as long as it’s not meant offensively. Now, as Rick and others have argued, who are you to determine who those on the receiving end of this term should consider offensive? Laowai/foreigner, whatever… communicates that we are not on the same level as Chinese people, that we are unequal to them, that we are outsiders, and by implication are unwelcome. It communicates that it’s principally our race that is what they’re superficially judging us on, nothing more. Therefore, we have a justification to be offended by it. You on the other hand, justify it by saying that’s it’s PC in China, and its not about ‘race’ but ‘foreignness’ (as if there’s a difference), so all’s well. We should conclude the discussion, as it’s not something we’re going to be able to reconcile on.

          • Kai

            To sum up your position, you believe calling someone foreigner is a perfectly acceptable term as long as it’s not meant offensively.

            No, I believe calling someone “foreigner” without intending offense should not be presented as intending offense.

            I also believe that while “laowai” is not inherently pejorative, it can become a pejorative or a “racist slur” if enough people in society reach such a consensus, just like “oriental” or “negro”.

            Now, as Rick and others have argued, who are you to determine who those on the receiving end of this term should consider offensive?

            Everything you wrote from this onward is irrelevant because you are not arguing against my position but against a straw man.

            The problem with your argument and Rick’s argument is that it is oversimplified into not taking into account subjective intentions or mainstream conventions and placing the sole authority of deciding what is offensive by the person choosing to take offense. That is unrealistic and impractical. Others have pointed this out too (Kamikazi?). Just because a black person thinks something some white guy said was offensive doesn’t necessarily mean it was offensive. The black guy could totally be overreacting. That’s why we have the word “overreaction”. That’s why we have words like “misunderstanding” or “misinterpretation”. People can feel offended but it doesn’t mean the offense they feel is necessarily warranted. You and Rick’s argument for this is a bad argument.

            Laowai/foreigner, whatever… communicates that we are not on the same level as Chinese people, that we are unequal to them, that we are outsiders, and by implication are unwelcome.

            No, it doesn’t. It CAN have such connotations but it doesn’t remotely necessarily have them. “Laowai” at its most basic does not communicate that you are “not on the same level”, it only communicates that you are “not the same” as Chinese people. It does not communicate that you are “unequal”, just different. It does communicate that you are outsiders, just like the word “foreigner” does. That’s the utility of the word. It does NOT imply that you are unwelcome. Terms that denote something as different or foreign does not connote whether or not something is welcome. You are ascribing this onto the word when the word does not have such an implication. That’s dishonest.

            It communicates that it’s principally our race that is what they’re superficially judging us on, nothing more.

            No, it doesnt. The use of the word does not necessarily reflect anyone “judging” you, much less “principally” by your race. Your obvious difference in race is prompting them to “identify” you as not being one of them and thus “foreign”. “Laowai” communicates that they are identifying you as foreign.

            If they are “judging” you by your race, you need a lot more than just the use of the word “laowai”.

            Therefore, we have a justification to be offended by it.

            The problem is you fabricated your own justification. Instead of evaluating the actual intentions and circumstances of its usage, you unfairly generalize the negative usages onto all usage.

            You on the other hand, justify it by saying that’s it’s PC in China, and its not about ‘race’ but ‘foreignness’ (as if there’s a difference), so all’s well.

            First, yes, there’s a difference between “race” and “foreigness”. You are trying to substitute “foreigness” with “race” in order to make it easier to say “laowai” is racist. That’s dishonest argumentation.

            Second, I am not justifying anything. I am explaining how it is not considered politically incorrect in China and THAT is why the term is so popularly used. A big reason WHY it is not considered politically incorrect in China is because the vast majority of its uses are neutral, without any malice or pejorative. The only thing that will change this is if its usage becomes popularly seen as pejorative.

            You really need to pay more attention to what I am saying and avoid misrepresenting my position with straw men. It is infuriating and only reinforces my impression that you are an intellectually dishonest person.

          • KenjiAd

            Sorry to butt in, the word “laowai” simply points out that you are a foreigner, more precisely not Chinese. It’s not a racial slur per se.

            The word is not meant to be offensive, even though I can see why some non-Chinese people take offense at this term.

            But the real offense is really not the word, but the situation where someone being a foreigner is unnecessarily pointed out, i.e., where his/her foreignness should not be part of the conversation.

            I can see that this sort of situation could be offensive to the foreigner. He might feel that the use of “laowai” implies that his foreignness somehow disqualifies him to be the same as Chinese.

            The scenario above may be a case of over-thinking on the laowai’s part, but not necessarily without a cause. I’m also a laowai here; I’m Japanese so I don’t visually stand out. But I’m aware that my nationality doesn’t always sit well with *some* Chinese people (I emphasize some here, but the vast majority of Chinese people are not like this).

            When someone introduces me as a ribenren, I sometimes don’t feel comfortable when my nationality, or non-Chinese status, shouldn’t be the issue.

            So yeah, if I’m not mistaken, I do understand you Probo. But the word itself is not a slur. And people who are using it, are not racists. The worst you can call them might be “insensitive” but by the same token, they can call you “too sensitive.” Ah… no offense intended. :-)

          • Probotector

            I already mentioned most of what you posted, but I’m glad you agree and empathise. Do Chinese people think of you as a laowai when they realise you are from Japan? I have been told they don’t consider other Asians to be laowai, even if they’re foreign.

          • Rick in China

            Whenever you hear laowai, why don’t you reply with a similar sentence but swap it for “黄色大陆人”? Just as an experiment.

          • Probotector

            Well, should we be stooping to the same level?

          • Rick in China

            No, of course not, but *as an experiment* it might provide some insights :D

          • Probotector

            You ever see the old fart grandparents educating their two year old grandkids, who can barely string together a sentence of Chinese, to refer to us as ‘laowai’?

        • Alex Dương

          So should we not refer to immigrants as immigrants? Is that divisive too?

          • Probotector

            You missed the point, re read the comment. It’s not about the word itself, but how and why people use it.

          • Alex Dương

            Your point is that you don’t want to be an “other” when you’re the butt of jokes, but you will gladly be an “other” if it helps you. Doesn’t mean that “laowai” is a slur.

          • Probotector

            Wrong. My point is I don’t want to be singled out based on my race.

          • Alex Dương

            Are you qualified to teach English back home? If not, then I’d say you did benefit from being an “other” in China. That’s what I mean by you don’t want to be an “other” when you’re “singled out,” but you’ll gladly be one if it helps.

          • Probotector

            That’s irrelevant, spurious nonsense, and why do you assume that I am hired because of some ‘Chinese affirmative action’ or that I bask in the supposed preferential treatment of white people in China (which I’ve never experienced btw)? I am qualified to teach in China, based on the criteria they set. I’ve also worked with many non-white foreign teachers, who are hired like me because of their knowledge of the language, their experience and their qualifications. I don’t go around with this air of superiority, thinking my ‘whiteness’ will open doors for me. It’s presumptuous of you to assert that. The point we’re all making to you is that we don’t want to be singled out based on race, either in a positive or a negative way.

          • Alex Dương

            why do you assume that I am hired because of some ‘Chinese affirmative action’ or that I bask in the supposed preferential treatment of white
            people in China (which I’ve never experienced btw)?

            Is this article out of date?

          • Probotector

            Yeah, you’re using that article to generalise (I can’t believe I’M calling someone else out on that btw!) all employers throughout China. Come on.

          • Alex Dương

            I always asked you to back your generalizations up. I made a generalization; I backed it up. You’re free to tell me if it’s out-of-date.

          • Probotector

            The point is, not all employers in China employ a foreigner purely for ‘looking the part’. You’re getting off topic here, this is not relevant to the issue of laowai being a racist term.

          • Alex Dương

            It’s very much on topic. You claim that all you’re saying is you don’t want to be singled out for good or bad, and being called a “laowai” singles you out negatively. I’m disputing that by claiming that you don’t mind being singled out when it helps you; you only mind when you think you’re being singled out when it hurts you.

            Edit

            And 老外 isn’t racist. The Chinese call themselves 老中, Indians 老印, Koreans 老韓, Americans 老美, British 老英, and so forth. Is 老英 racist too?

          • Probotector

            “I’m disputing that by claiming that you don’t mind being singled out when it helps you”

            No I don’t, I just said I don’t. Personally, I like to be left alone. You don’t know me, you can’t make that assumption.

            Moreover, your reasoning is flawed anyway, it’s like calling a black guy a hypocrite if he says, “I’m happy white chicks want to sleep with me because black is their type, but I hate being called ‘the token’.”

            “And 老外 isn’t racist. The Chinese call themselves 老中, Indians 老印, Koreans 老韓, Americans 老美, British 老英, and so forth. Is 老英 racist too?”

            Refer to my initial comment, and those made by Rick and Mateusz82: it’s not the word itself, it’s how it’s used.

          • Alex Dương

            Moreover, your reasoning is flawed anyway, it’s like calling a black guy a hypocrite if he says, “I’m happy white chicks want to sleep with me because black is their type, but I hate being called a n****r.”

            No. But if he said, “I’m happy white chicks want to sleep with me because black is their type, but I hate being called black” then yeah, that’s a bit hypocritical.

            Refer to my initial comment, and those made by Rick and Mateusz82: it’s not the word itself, it’s how it’s used.

            We’re just going in circles. None of you want to be singled out negatively – no one does – but you will accept it when it helps you. That’s all you’re saying: “I’m happy to be a laowai when it gets me a job, but I hate being called a laowai when I’m being laughed at.”

          • Probotector

            Yeah I changed it to ‘token’ and no it’s not hypocritical.

            “That’s all you’re saying: “I’m happy to be a laowai when it gets me a job, but I hate being called a laowai when I’m being laughed at.””

            I never said that. I always refuse preferential treatment actually, but you’re just making assumptions again.

            Look, we disagree, you’re not that bad to have a debate with, but please don’t make assumptions about me because you don’t know me.

          • Alex Dương

            It is hypocritical. If your attitude is, “I’m a human being,” then you shouldn’t gleefully undertake relationships with people who have a racial fetish; “I like you because you’re black” should be a huge turnoff.

            Do I know that you personally benefited from “Chinese affirmative action”? You are right that I do not. But though you personally may not have benefited from it, it remains that you work in a system where such a practice exists (i.e. where being a “laowai” has benefits). As with your example, this should be a turnoff.

          • Probotector

            “As with your example, this should be a turnoff.”

            It is to me; I never accept favours from Chinese people, but my analogy is not the same as ‘Chinese affirmative action’ it’s not that black and white. There is a difference between a personal preference and hiring unqualified people because of their race, which can be detrimental to productivity and the lives of others around them.

          • Mateusz82

            “Chink” isn’t racist. The British refer to themselves as “Brits”, and Australians refer to themselves as “Aussies”. Is “Aussie” racist too?

            Your hypocrisy lies in your opposition to slurs only when they are against you personally. When the wrong ethnic group is targeted, you lose empathy.

          • Alex Dương

            “Chink” isn’t racist. The British refer to themselves as “Brits”, and
            Australians refer to themselves as “Aussies”. Is “Aussie” racist too?

            Keywords: “refer to themselves.” Do Chinese Americans refer to themselves as “chinks”? No? Then your comparison is inapt.

          • Mateusz82

            Some do. Dave Chappelle referred to himself as “Nigga”. The Wu Tang Clan uses “nigger” often in songs, as does Snoop, and Dr. Dre… so that means “nigger” is not a slur, by your logic.

            Why are you so obsessed with defending the use of a racial slur, a word used to keep non-yellow people in their place in China? Instead of backing up and wondering what it might be like to have a word thrown at you constantly, a word that delineates you as “one of those people”, a constant reminder that you don’t belong her, you attack those who are take offense.

          • Alex Dương

            Do you really want to go there? “Nigger” has a long history as a slur. That some blacks have attempted to reclaim the word does not change the history of the word as a slur.

            老外 is not a slur. Neither is 老中, 老印, 老韓, 老美, 老英, or any other 老+X combination the Chinese use to refer to a foreign nationality.

            Renounce your U.S. citizenship and adopt Chinese citizenship. Then I’ll back you if you want to be offended at being called a 老外. Until then, you are a foreigner in China.

          • Mateusz82

            Well, you brought it there. I’m just enlightening you.

            It is a slur. No matter how much you try to deny it, that won’t change anything. Just because some people use it to refer to themselves doesn’t make it right for others to use it. You have no right to tell any of us whether we should be offended by racism.

            That would be rather hard, due to China’s xenophobic practices, and since I wouldn’t be changing my race, I doubt you’d back me up.

            And here’s the thing, a Chinese person in the US is a “Chink” (which is totally not a slur… because reasons) until they renounce their Chinese citizenship, yet they don’t get the same treatment. I was in the US recently, and noticed groups of Chinese tourists (presumably Chinese, due to them speaking Chinese, and coming out of Chinese tour buses), yet no Americans pointed and whispered about “the chinks”.

          • Alex Dương

            老外 is not a slur. 老+X leads to terms that the Chinese use to refer to themselves and others. 老中 is not the equivalent of blacks calling each other “niggas.”

            That would be rather hard, due to China’s xenophobic practices, and
            since I wouldn’t be changing my race, I doubt you’d back me up.

            If you did it, I’d totally back you up. You’d have full right to call yourself 老中. But until you do, you’re a foreigner in China.

            I was in the US recently, and noticed groups of Chinese tourists (presumably Chinese, due to them speaking Chinese, and coming out of
            Chinese tour buses), yet no Americans pointed and whispered about “the
            chinks”.

            The U.S. is ~5% Asian. Is China even 0.5% white?

          • Mateusz82

            Sure you would. You keep saying it’s not a slur, but that doesn’t make it any less so.

            I’m sure you would, with your ethnic nationalist attitude, you sounds like a total civil rights advocate.

            Don’t you mean, “Is China even 0.5% European”?, or is equating race and region something that only applies to you? And there you demonstrate the problem. China is all Asian, but only yellow people are accepted as Asians. Asians of other colors are not allowed into the club. It’s the attitude of China, and you as well. Even if China were 99.5% yellow, what is the critical mass for minorities, at which they deserve to be treated like people?

          • Alex Dương

            I’m sure you would, with your ethnic nationalist attitude, you sounds like a total civil rights advocate.

            This is your problem. You’ve never been about doing away with racial / ethnic classifications; you just want to subvert the system by crying how you have the right to call yourself whatever you want, and anyone who disagrees is a racist. It’s pathetic; you want the upside of affirmative action for blacks, since “we’re all from Africa,” without having to live with the downsides like being racially profiled.

          • Mateusz82

            No, I don’t. I want to confront racism, and end it (yes, I know, ending racism is a lofty, perhaps unattainable goal, but I want to reduce it as much as possible). You want to defend and add to racism (as long as it’s toward the right race).

            How did you even get that? I mean, is it just blatantly lying in your accusation that I want affirmative action, or did you misread something? That really comes out of nowhere.

            Also, I’m already racially profiled. It’s an experience I have living in China.

          • Alex Dương

            That came from a discussion I had with you two months ago. It became clear to me then that you are not actually against racial classifications. Rather, you just want to subvert the system for personal benefit.

          • Kai

            What are you doing, man? Differences in social homogeniety is not the argument for different prevalence of “laowai” vs. “chink” in China and the US respectively. The argument is that “chink” has always been a racial slur and is consistently considered so in mainstream English-language society but “laowai” has not always been a racial slur and is not consistently considered so in mainstream Chinese-language society.

          • Alex Dương

            Mateusz essentially pulled the “how come ‘they’ can call each other ‘nigga’ that but I can’t?” card twice. He literally used it and then also claimed that “chink” was the closest equivalent of 老外. I was pointing out that 老中 is most certainly not a slur that has been reclaimed by the people it was used against and thus is not the equivalent of blacks calling each other “niggas.”

          • Kai

            He did say: “Just because some people use it to refer to themselves doesn’t make it right for others to use it.” So he knows that card. His problem is differentiating “laowai” from “chinks” where there is no consensus on the former being a slur while there is overwhelming consensus on the latter being one in modern convention. His failure to recognize this is what leads him to make the leap in saying “chink” is the equivalent of “laowaI”.

            He is insisting on “laowai” being a racist slur because he wants it to be so, the word’s inherent meaning, etymology, and conventional mainstream usage be damned. He is arguing that what HE thinks is offensive should automatically BE offensive in the eyes of everyone else. The best argument I think for this is to point out that the world doesn’t revolve around him, and that norms and conventions have a place in the world in determining the nature of any word.

          • Alex Dương

            The best argument I think for this is to point out that the world
            doesn’t revolve around him, and that norms and conventions have a place
            in the world in determining the nature of any word.

            I’m not sure if he replied when I said that to him. But that probably just illustrates your point.

          • Kai

            Whether or not a term is a slur depends on how it is used. A term can be interpreted as a slur when it is not. You are doing this. You are interpreting “laowai” as necessarily being a slur. Moreover, you are interpreting the specific usage of “laowai” in the article above as being racist when it was not used in a racist manner. It was not used as a slur.

            “Laowai” can be used pejoratively, as an insult, with condescension, with malice. Just like “negro” or “gaijin”. But it doesn’t mean every use of the term is pejorative, insulting, condescending, or malicious. As long as that remains true, the term itself is not a racist slur. This doesn’t mean language and society cannot evolve to the point where mainsteram society considers it to be a slur, just like “orientals”. It does however mean your position is currently wrong.

            He’s not attacking people who are rightfully offended, he’s criticizing someone who is taking unnecessary offense, who is arguably guilty of exhibiting a victim complex. You need to take a step back and realize that all uses of “laowai” are not “racist slurs” just because you choose on interpreting them so. Words have meanings and etymologies and their acceptability in use are dictated by mainstream norms and conventions. You need to acknwoledge that “laowai” is not necessarily a racist slur and especially that the article you accused of being racist was not using the term as a racist slur.

          • Mateusz82

            What he is doing is telling me how to react to the word, especially arrogant since he would never have to deal with it the same way I would. He can’t understand my experience, since he couldn’t live it, and he refuses to listen. It is something that, unless you are a non-yellow person living in China, especially one from another country, you will never understand, not unless you are willing to listen.

            It would be very much like if a US news report used the word “chink”, and I told him why he should get over it, and accept that it’s not a slur just because I said so, and he needs to stop being offended. The problem is he wants to defend the use of a racial slur. Instead of trying to understand it from another perspective, and admit that it could be offensive, he is defending it. It is arrogant and a show of smug superiority that he tells me how I should feel about a slur. I would never tell him that if he is called “chink”, that he should accept that it’s not a slur because I said so. I would like the same respect, but unfortunately, holding onto racism is too important for him.

            I don’t need to take a step back, since I live here. I’ve been hearing that word thrown at me and others of my ethnicity for years. They are racial slurs. Simply saying they’re not changes nothing. You need to acknowledge they are racial slurs, or admit that you are contributing to the racism by defending it.

          • Alex Dương

            What he is doing is telling me how to react to the word, especially arrogant since he would never have to deal with it the same way I would.
            He can’t understand my experience, since he couldn’t live it, and he refuses to listen. It is something that, unless you are a non-yellow
            person living in China, especially one from another country, you will never understand, not unless you are willing to listen.

            Oh, puh-leese. I can’t understand your experience? I have never lived in any part of the U.S. where Asians were the majority or at least a large minority. I don’t think Asians even made up 1% of my high school’s student body. So don’t think I “can’t understand your experience.” It’s because I understand it that I am not sympathetic to your arguments, like this one:

            It would be very much like if a US news report used the word “chink”, and I told him why he should get over it, and accept that it’s not a
            slur just because I said so, and he needs to stop being offended. The problem is he wants to defend the use of a racial slur.

            老外 is not an equivalent of “chink.” You know what would be an equivalent? 洋鬼. 白鬼. 鬼佬. If you were complaining that you were being called one of those terms on a daily basis, hell yes, I would side with you and agree that you were being discriminated against and that you had every right to be mad.

            But you’re being called a 老外. That’s like me being called Asian. Uh, I am Asian. Being called Asian when I’m Asian isn’t a slur. So for you to claim that being called 老外 is like being called a “chink” shows how tone deaf you are.

          • Kai

            What he is doing is telling me how to react to the word, especially arrogant since he would never have to deal with it the same way I would.

            Whether or not he has to deal with the word “laowai” doesn’t affect whether or not you are falsely representing the meaning and usage of the word.

            Likewise, just because you don’t have to deal with being called “Chinese” doesn’t mean you can’t be critical of someone who insists it is a slur just because they have taken offense from it at times and consciously choose to interpret every usage of the word as pejorative.

            He can’t understand my experience, since he couldn’t live it, and he refuses to listen. It is something that, unless you are a non-yellow person living in China, especially one from another country, you will never understand, not unless you are willing to listen.

            This kind of argument would work against criticisms of the Chinese just as well. Many people who criticize the Chinese “can’t understand” their experience since they “couldn’t live it”, and they are therefore “refusing to listen”. But since we accept that people can criticize the Chinese without necessarily experiencing 100% of what they have experienced, people can criticize you without being you.

            You presume agreement reflects listening. People may be hearing you just fine, listening to you just fine, but still disagree with you. Listening does not equate to agreement.

            It would be very much like if a US news report used the word “chink”, and I told him why he should get over it, and accept that it’s not a slur just because I said so, and he needs to stop being offended.

            Your argument is presupposing that “laowai” is equivalent to “chink” when it is not. You are reasoning that if “laowai” is a slur and “chink” is a slur, then “laowai” = “chink”. That’s not true. You’ve asserted–not proven– that “laowai” is a slur and then abused the transitive property. It is you who is saying “‘laowai’ is a slur because I said so”.

            If that logic was acceptable, then anyone can make anything a slur, “because they say so”. That’s not how the world works, man.

            Also, no one is telling you to not be offended when “laowai” is used as a pejorative. The crux is when it is used as a pejorative. The fact is that it is not always nor even usually used as a pejorative, like in the article above.

            The problem is he wants to defend the use of a racial slur. Instead of trying to understand it from another perspective, and admit that it could be offensive, he is defending it. It is arrogant and a show of smug superiority that he tells me how I should feel about a slur. I would never tell him that if he is called “chink”, that he should accept that it’s not a slur because I said so. I would like the same respect, but unfortunately, holding onto racism is too important for him.

            He has not once failed to admit that it “could be offensive”. You either need to review his comments or apologize for misrepresenting him. He is not defending the use of a racial slur, he is defending the fact that “laowai” is not inherently a racial slur and is usually used in a neutral sense without pejorative.

            It is now you who is not listening.

            I don’t need to take a step back, since I live here. I’ve been hearing that word thrown at me and others of my ethnicity for years. They are racial slurs. Simply saying they’re not changes nothing. You need to acknowledge they are racial slurs, or admit that you are contributing to the racism by defending it.

            Living in China has no relevance to whether or not you have an accurate understanding of the word “laowai”. Your representations of what the word “laowai” means does, and unfortuantely, you have a flawed understanding of the word “laowai”.

            You have repeatedly insisted that “laowai” is a racist slur disregarding its etymology and the vast majority of its conventional uses as a neutral, non-pejorative identifier.

            You have probably suffered “laowai” being used against you pejoratively. I’d wager the vast majority of the time, it is used as an identifier without pejorative, perhaps by people who find you novel, or perhaps by people who quite blamelessly think it is the easiest way to identify you to others. You have every right to consider the term “othering” and thus unpleasant, and therefore endeavor to discourage its use. You do not however have the right to declare all uses of the term as being pejorative and reflections of racism, no more than someone merely uttering the term “white” or “black” or “foreigner” is necessarily being pejorative or racist.

            Simply saying they’re not changes nothing.

            Simply saying they are changes nothing.

            You need to acknowledge they are racial slurs, or admit that you are contributing to the racism by defending it.

            You need to acknwoledge your circular argument.

          • Probotector

            Their lack of empathy notwithstanding, many Chinese are more insensitive than just using the world laowai nonchalantly. Remember, Chinese people assume every white face speaks English. I feel sorry for all the French, Russian, and certainly hispanic people that come here and get the mocking ‘hello’ thrown at them, or the assumption that a foreigner can’t speak Chinese, which, in the case of many non-English speaking expats, a lot of them speak Chinese and their native language.

            Chinese often assume a white person is American, and when you attempt to clarify the issue, there are those of them who say “you’re all foreign to us”. The point that we’re making is that calling someone ‘foreigner’ is condescending and racially divisive, emphasising they’ll never be one of us because of their racial appearance. Notice how Koreans are not considered to be laowai, even though they are foreign, by the definition of the word.

          • Guest

            It used to be that every black-haired black-eyed person is Jap in the US. A Chinese guy got killed because they thought he was Chinese. It is still not uncommon for white people to go up to an Asian looking person and start with “Ni hao ma?” and then prattle on about how much they love the Chinese (unlike their compatriots). You are make a mountain out of a molehill.

            Btw xenophobia is a different concept to racism. If you want to accuse the Chinese of xenophobia, you should at least learn to get your terms right and your hate aligned properly.

          • Probotector

            How am I being hateful? Describing Chinese prejudices against those of other races is not an expression of hate.

            Yes xenophobia is different to racism, well done, and I am saying that the Chinese who behave in the the way I described are racist. No confusion of the terms there.

            With all that diatribe about how Asians are treated in the U.S., are you saying two wrongs make a right?

          • Guest

            I’m saying two wrongs don’t become one wrong. Immigrants are demonised in the UK, Australia and the US (of which there is plenty of recent news and one-sided commentary against them). I don’t call it racism even though many people seem to confuse the terms like you do. If the Chinese are attacking you for being foreign you have every right to call them xenophobic. However, the term ‘laowai’ is associated with offence, much like calling someone an ‘immigrant’ is not offensive depending on the context. Your hate is evidence because of the interpretation you choose and also revealed by your past comments on this site. Don’t worry, if you want to hate, just be up front about it, everyone knows there a bigots around, you don’t have to be indignant about it.

          • Probotector

            Immigration to any western country is not demonised, it is encouraged, generally speaking. Of course there are individuals that demonise it, but thy normally belong to a fringe of those societies.

            So, you’re saying that I hate Chinese people because I don’t like them calling me ‘laowai’ all the time? How is that tantamount to hate?

            My issue is not with the word laowai itself, but with the way it is used, meaning the way it is continually and relentlessly used to refer to or to point out in public the fact that there’s someone in their midst who is racially different.

            For Chinese to constantly refer to a person who is racially different to them simply as ‘foreigner’ indicates that all they can see in a them is their race, making their judgement of them merely superficial, as if being foreign defines who they are. In doing this, the Chinese are also being very devisive, implying they have an ‘us vs them’ mentality, and dehumanising said ‘foreigner’ simply as a product of their legal and racial status. This in turn, makes them feel unwelcome and that the Chinese don’t consider them to be an equal. That’s why I consider it racist when it is used in such a way.

            Bear in mind also that foreigners of Asian appearance, like South Koreans are not typically considered to be laowai, simply because they look alike,.even if the Chinese know their nationality.

            Sill, even if you disagree with this argument, how can you say it is based on hate? I don’t hate the Chinese, I just don’t appreciate he way they view me as a mere outsider. Calling it hatred reveals more about your own insecurities on the issue than mine.

          • wnsk

            “Bear in mind also that foreigners of Asian appearance, like South
            Koreans are not typically considered to be laowai, simply because they
            look alike, even if the Chinese know their nationality.”

            Bear in mind that the Chinese have ACTUAL racial slurs for Koreans and Japanese that are a lot more offensive than “lao wai.” So stop being grouchy. If you were being called a red-haired monkey or whatever, THEN I’d agree you have some cause for grievance.

          • Probotector

            Put yourself in someone else’s shoes and you might understand. I’ve already mentioned why it’s offensive, and I’m not alone in this opinion.

            So do you agree or disagree with my words that you’ve quoted?

          • wnsk

            Yeah well, China, Japan, and Korea are geographically close. They also share traditions and culture. So they are not as foreign, relatively speaking.

            But, how would you like to be described/addressed then? Just one of the natives? Because that would be technically inaccurate.

            Maybe you’d feel better if you know that Chinese frequently distinguish/label other Chinese too, based on region. Cantonese, Fukkienese, Northerners, Southerners, what have you. It’s just a thing they do. It’s not (at the level of) racism. Get over it.

          • Guest

            Koreans are called “wai guo ren”. They are not called “laowai” because they don’t have white skin. It’s like you might call Germans, French etc “white” but you wouldn’t call the British “European” (in common usage – ie, despite being part of the EU). Your hatred is shown by your willingness to read negativity into everyday issues that touch on the Chinese even though they are not unique to the Chinese. Again, this is not just from your comments in this thread but from comments in other threads as well. Rather than trying to deny that negativity, why don’t you either just own it or discard it? No point arguing about whether you hate the Chinese because you clearly do.

            Btw, I hope it’s not because of all the porn I’m accessing, but for some reason my good spelling and grammar gets jumbled up when it’s posted here (see my comment before this one). Strange. Makes me sound like one of those guys who use Google Translate to write their comments.

          • Probotector

            Laowai and waiguoren have the same meaning… foreigner. I’ve been called waiguoren myself and I am white. How is it only for those who don’t have white skin?

            Yes the British are referred to as European. That statement was simply wrong.

            “No point arguing about whether you hate the Chinese because you clearly do.”

            You mean, no point arguing whether I hate the Chinese, because you cannot argue it. I already asked you how disliking being called laowai is tantamount to hate, after explaining my reasons for disliking it, and you just dodged the question.

            You are clearly very ignorant of world facts, and ignorant in assuming an opinion you don’t agree with must be based on hate.

            There was no point of sharing that last paragraph with me.

          • Kai

            Alex, I thought @disqus_5xS38xIeTi:disqus established a fair and reasonable position in his initial comment.

            While he thinks the term is inherently divisive (more accurately “othering”, which I think we both have to agree), he specifies that he doesn’t like being called laowai in a pejorative manner. “Foreigner” and “immigrant” are both terms that are the same, that can also be used in a pejorative tone, for which others can find offensive.

            Probo should only be challenged if he’s unfairly ascribing malevolence to situations where the term wasn’t used in a pejorative manner.

          • Alex Dương

            “Foreigner” and “immigrant” are both terms that are the same, that can
            also be used in a pejorative tone, for which others can find offensive.

            I agree. But the natural follow-up would be, “what do you want to be called?”

            The answer seems to be “nothing. Treat me as a human being like anybody else.” Personally, I like that. I think if we all did that, then racism / discrimination would diminish markedly, if not vanish entirely.

            My issue is that it’s not clear to me how genuine this feeling is in light of their posting histories, where I feel that all of them have at some point or another stated, either directly or in passing, that they have in fact benefited from being an “other” in China and didn’t have any problem with it.

            That matters to me because if you’re going to say, “just treat me as a human being,” then that means you have to say no to the “benefits” too. You can’t say no to the downsides but say yes to the upsides.

          • Kai

            I understand, and Probo is someone I strongly suspect as suffering from a lot of misleading vividness fallacies, overweighting all of his negative experiences and taking for granted all of his positive experiences. That said, I still think this angle of discussion you broached was not the most effective in discussing whether or not “laowai” is a racist term, as he said and as he feels it should be.

      • Mateusz82

        Yes it is.

        • Alex Dương

          No, it isn’t. This reminds me of pro-illegal immigration activists who say “illegal alien” is a slur.

          • Mateusz82

            Actually, it is used derisively, and “illegal” is used as a slur when referring to people of a Latino background.

            Also, it is a slur.

          • Alex Dương

            Isn’t it funny then that pro-illegal immigration activists desperately want illegal immigrants to receive laminated pieces of paper that say “resident alien” on them?

            Illegal alien is not a slur. Foreigner is not a slur. Laowai means foreigner. It is not a slur.

          • Mateusz82

            No, it’s not funny. “Alien” is a very specific legal term.

            On what basis do you have the authority to tell me what is and is not a slur? How can you decree it? If I said, “Chink” is not a slur, does it magically become acceptable, or “Jap”?

          • Alex Dương

            “Alien” is a very specific legal term.

            Right. So it’s not a slur.

            Convention dictates what is and isn’t a slur.

          • Mateusz82

            Which is exactly what I was saying, yet you kept disagreeing.

          • You and the others are arguing semantics, and frankly missing the point.

            Even if a word is not inherently a slur, it can still be used as a slur. For example, a couple days ago, an Australian mining businessman/politician got in trouble for saying “Chinese mongrels”. Now, “mongrels” is of course a slur, but no one would have paid attention to that remark if he had simply referred to the subjects, who happened to be Chinese, as “mongrels”. But by adding “Chinese mongrels”, he effectively made it an ethnic slur.

            A word that quite well mirrors “laowai” is the term “Jew”. Of course, “Jew” is the proper and formal term to refer to someone who is Jewish. But I have frequently seen the term “Jew” used as a slur (and have been the target of it myself).

            If you call a foreigner a foreigner in the appropriate setting, it’s not a slur.

            If you call a laowai a laowai in the appropriate setting, it’s not a slur.

            If you call an illegal alien an illegal alien in the appropriate setting, it’s not a slur.

            But if in the course of day-to-day business, you treat someone as nothing more than a product of their legal status, you are dehumanizing them and effectively slurring them, especially if they express offense and you insist on using it anyway.

            You claimed in another post you would not object to being called a yellow person. I think you were disingenuously downplaying the important aspect of context. If a friend is talking about different races of people and uses the term “yellow person” to incidentally refer to you, that’s one thing. But if you’re at a restaurant and the staff talk to each other about you whilst referring to you as “the yellow person”, would you not feel dehumanized?

            In short, “laowai” is not etymologically inherently a slur, but it can be used as a slur, which is why both you and the people you’re arguing with can both be so confident in their convictions.

            In my opinion, if a group of people are categorically offended by a term, good taste and decency dictates that it ought to be retired. “Oriental” is as etymologically accurate as “laowai”, but it was rightly retired when the recipients of the term decided they did not like it.

          • Alex Dương

            You claimed in another post you would not object to being called a
            yellow person. I think you were disingenuously downplaying the important
            aspect of context. If a friend is talking about different races of
            people and uses the term “yellow person” to incidentally refer to you,
            that’s one thing. But if you’re at a restaurant and the staff talk to
            each other about you whilst referring to you as “the yellow person”,
            would you not feel dehumanized?

            I didn’t downplay anything. I said I was well aware that the adjective carries a connotation of cowardice and sickliness. I acknowledged the context of the word while giving my opinion that I personally am not offended by it, as I choose to see it in the same vein as “white,” “black,” “brown,” etc.

            I think you raise an excellent point that we were talking past each other. To this, I can only say that I find the solution Rick, Probotector, and Mateusz have in response to “what should they be called?” somewhat disingenuous. They claim they just want to be called people and not treated any differently than others. But it’s no secret that being white in China is a huge plus for certain areas of employment (viz. English teaching). So they enjoy the benefit of being treated as an other and don’t protest when it’s good for them; they only protest when it’s bad for them.

          • I’m inclined to agree that “laowai” is an indispensable word, insofar as it’s needed to express the meaning of “foreigner”. But I also believe Chinese society would benefit from a reduction in the frequency of the usage in the world, in tandem with a reduction in the extent to which “laowais” are categorically distinguished, whether for good or bad. It seems to me that PRC netizens keep debating whether “laowais” are good or bad, and I yearn for the day they collectively realize that there will never be an answer to that question because being “laowai” does not define who they are. Of course, the rest of the world could benefit from this revelation as well.

          • Alex Dương

            Fair point.

          • Kai

            I don’t think this criticism of yours of Rick, Probo, and Mateusz was compellingly relevant to this discussion about whether or not the Chinese term “laowai” is a “racist slur”. Whether or not the term is a “racist slur” or not should’ve been confined to its etymology and conventional usage, and you shouldn’t have broadened it to your impressions of them having double-standards regarding their treatment in China.

          • Alex Dương

            I brought it up because I do feel that there is a double standard here. No one wants to be singled out negatively; that’s just human nature. But I am skeptical that they just want to be called and treated as “normal” human beings and nothing more.

          • KamikaziPilot

            Very well said Matt, I think you hit the nail on the head. It would be hard for a reasonable person to disagree with what you said. That said I still kind of cringe when older asian Americans use the term “oriental”.

          • Kai

            You need to also direct this at Mateusz82.

      • Rick in China

        What, pray tell, do you consider the English equivalent?

        • Alex Dương

          Foreigner.

          • Rick in China

            How often in a western country do you see people point to people not from that country and call them “foreigners”, or refer to people they don’t know as “the foreigner”.. or in the news, as “the foreigner”.. ?

          • Alex Dương

            Your country and my country are both overwhelmingly composed of people who are descended from immigrants. With how multiethnic our countries are, you can’t tell whether someone is foreign just because they have a certain skin tone. Is that true for China? No.

          • Rick in China

            And that makes the term less racist? I think that’s the epitome of racism, especially when, as you say, it’s used to refer to (specifically) people of different race, and while not always, sometimes in a very negative way..and the almost exclusive term used in all these write-ups circulating the Chinese internet and social media about how terrible ‘the laowai’ are and how many bad things ‘the laowai’ do. Your statement, “laowai is not a slur”, is laughable – in the sense that it’s very often used *as a slur*, and whether or not you recognise it, is often *taken* as a slur. Good luck telling an African American that when you called him a “darkie” that it “isn’t actually a slur because technically you’re dark”. *sigh*

            (btw I’m referring to the fact Chinese use Laowai for mostly white people, and “dark person” or “black person” for African/African American people. Wouldn’t it be fair to call themselves “yellow people”, then? Can we say that in English, too?)

          • Alex Dương

            Is “foreigner” racist? How about “alien”? I’d say no to both. How about you?

            While “darkie” has disparaging connotations, on paper, “black” should not. Yet, I have in fact been told by some blacks that they did not take kindly to being called black and that they preferred to be called “African American.” What does this mean? You can’t please everybody. It doesn’t mean that “black” is pejorative, because if you ask Caribbeans, in my experience, most do not identify as “African American.” Also, are black Canadians “African Americans”? Maybe in the broad sense that Canada is a part of North America, but I invite you to tell me whether black Canadians call themselves that.

            I’m aware that “yellow” has connotations of cowardice and sickliness, but I personally don’t have any problems with being called a yellow person. That is, more or less, my skin color.

            In the end, for this discussion to advance, I’d really like to know whether you think “foreigner” and “alien” are racist.

          • Rick in China

            I do indeed think referring to people you don’t know (or know, I suppose) as “foreigner” or “alien” in a negative way is racist, even if it ‘technically’ should be based on nationality.. in reality, it’s not. You can say that it depends on how homogeneous a society is, I can say that’s bullshit and rather than say “black Canadian”, I would just say “Canadian”, and if I didn’t know whether they were Canadian, I would say “person”. It’s laughable that you wouldn’t be offended by a white person in Canada saying to their son, in front of you in an elevator, “Hey, look, it’s a yellow man.”

          • Alex Dương

            Well, then it’s no surprise you find “laowai” offensive. You find the equivalent terms in English offensive too. I don’t consider either “foreigner” or “alien” offensive, much less racist.

          • Rick in China

            I call bullshit.
            Tell me you’d shoot a smile and happy engage someone who says “Hey look, it’s a yellow foreigner!” to your face.

          • Alex Dương

            Of course not. But I’m not a foreigner in the U.S.; I was born here. You are a foreigner in China; you were born in Canada.

          • Rick in China

            Based on race. My baby looks white. She’s often called the “yang wa wa” — when she’s older, she’ll be the “laowai kid”, if she’s still in China. She was born here. She’ll face the same bullshit.

            Let me put it another way: you don’t get to make the decision about who is offended by a term which you’re likely not experiencing the connotations from. It’s as simple as that.

            I’m just *guessing* you don’t live in China, and don’t experience this the same way as, say, a white person does.

          • Alex Dương

            I’d say your daughter has a right to be offended at being called a foreigner in China since she was born there. You, however, are a foreigner, and thus you should not be offended.

            If someone calls me or treats me as a foreigner in the U.S., of course I will be offended. I was born here; this is my country. But if I take a job in your country, then I am a foreigner, and I’ve no right to be offended if I’m treated as one.

          • Rick in China

            Your logic is so absolutely wrong here, and unrealistic. The term has negative connotation. As such, calling _anyone_ a foreigner is offensive. Your logic states that if you are *literally* what you’re being called, then you have *no* right to be offended, regardless of the word’s use or connotations.. do you even see what’s wrong with that??

          • Alex Dương

            The term has negative connotation.

            To you. You also think “foreigner” / “alien” in English is racist as well. I hope you don’t think no reasonable person would disagree with you on that.

          • Kai

            Alex, @rickinchina:disqus has every right to be offended when “laowai” is used in a negative, pejorative way, against him or otherwise. Ideally, he’d acknwoledge that the word itself is not inherently intended to be pejorative and often isn’t used ina pejorative way, which I think he did. He’s been pretty careful to specify when the word is used “in a negative way”.

          • Rick in China

            One last thing on this topic:

            So, your argument as to why you would only take offense to the statement: “Hey look, it’s a yellow foreigner!” is that you are born in the US, and are not a foreigner *in the US*. As such, I should not take offense to the equivalent in China, because I *am* a white foreigner in China, correct? So.. let me ask you again, in a different way:

            If you’re visiting Vancouver, and someone says “Hey look, it’s a yellow foreigner!” to your face, I fully expect you to be like “Hi, nice to meet you!” and engage them. Afterall, that’s the equivalent.

            I still stand by this: YOU, nor any ‘yellow mainlander’? (tell me that ISN’T offensive), get to tell other people what offends them. That’s like me punching my wife in the face, and saying, “that didn’t hurt! Stop crying!”. It’s ridiculous.

          • Alex Dương

            This gets us back to what I said yesterday: “With how multiethnic our countries are, you can’t tell whether someone
            is foreign just because they have a certain skin tone. Is that true for
            China? No.”

            I just checked, and in 2006, Vancouver was about ~18% Chinese and ~42% “visible minority.” So I highly doubt that anyone would point to me and say, “hey, it’s a yellow foreigner!” I would be, but how would they know without hearing my American accent?

            In short, would I be offended? No, because as an American in Canada, I would be a foreigner. But I would be surprised that I’d be called that in a city where almost 1 in 5 of the inhabitants “look like me.” I think it would be as likely as my being called a “yellow foreigner” in San Francisco. I’d be offended if that happened, but would that really happen? Doubt it.

            Now, then, let me ask you: is any city in China anywhere close to 18% white / 42% non-Chinese? Does China have Canada or the U.S.’s long history of immigration, voluntary or involuntary, from all over the world?

          • Mateusz82

            Is your race “foreign”? When was the last time someone pointed at you and told their kid, “Look! Foreigner!”? How often are you referred to as “foreigner” when people talk about you? I’ve lived in the US for a long time, and almost never heard someone referred to as “foreigner” based on their race, and when someone did make such a comment, it was met with reprimand.

          • Alex Dương

            The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. China isn’t.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            and while not always, sometimes in a very negative way

            It is more often used in a very positive way. For example: “Don’t run. Laowai don’t extort/scam people.”

            Wouldn’t it be fair to call themselves “yellow people”, then?

            我是黄种人。
            What’s the problem?

          • Rick in China

            Figured you’d chime in, with nonsense.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Figured it’s worthless to reply to you, because you would start trolling.

          • Rick in China

            Awesome, glad you’re learning – so, I take it, you’ll stop trying to engage me in topics and leave it well enough alone. Happy day for me. Now, shoo.

          • Kai

            Neither response he made is “nonsense”. You’re responding in an unnecessarily aggressive way again. I wouldn’t say the word “laowai” itself is used in a “positive” way, “very” or not, but it is more often used in a completely neutral way by Chinese people. You acknwoledge this yourself in the remark he quoted you.

            The most you can say being “nonsense” is his suggestion that the term “laowai” was used in a “very positive way” in the comment suggesting laowai don’t extort/scam people unlike local Chinese people. It technically wasn’t “used” in a positive way, it was more associated with a positive thing. But calling that nonsense is assymetrical.

            Chinese people do have no problem calling themselves the Chinese equivalent for “yellow people”. It was carried over from English but never fell into mainstream disuse as possibly pejorative or derogatory. East Asians are unlikely to have an issue with the characterization of “yellow people” in English. Where you’d have a problem is with ethnic Asians and non-ethnic Asians in the West who feel the term is no longer politically correct.

          • Rick in China

            Kai, THIS is nonsense too. You’re telling me:

            “Neither response he made is “nonsense”.”

            Absolutely not. Saying Laowai is MORE OFTEN used in a POSITIVE way, and giving a stupid made up example in the attempt to support such a *nonsensical* claim, is nonsense.

            “You’re responding in an unnecessarily aggressive way again.”

            Um. All I said was this, “Figured you’d chime in, with nonsense.” Yes, that’s so extremely aggressive. Cower, yellow man, for the aggressive barbarian has shown his true colours. My god, man, tell me please, how is “figured you’d chime in, with nonsense” overly aggressive.

          • Kai

            Rick, you just argued the same thing I preemptively qualified against (my first and second paragraph). I said calling that “nonsense” was “assymetrical” as a response. His point wasn’t hard to decipher.

            I said you respoded in an “unnecessarily” aggressive way, not “extremely” but yes, “overly”. You tend to do so with anyone who superficially seems to be challenging your remarks. You have just recently been criticized by multiple other commenters in separate instances for the same thing, once where you defended yourself by saying you do so on purpose to incite further discussion. You regularly sprinkle petty “a-ha” insults in your responses to people, in this case your sarcastic “figured you’d chime in, with nonsense” remark.

          • Rick in China

            There is nothing aggressive whatsoever about the remark. You’re telling me that if I think someone replies with something that is stupid and adding nothing to the conversation, and call it out for being nonsense without insulting or cursing whatsoever, then it’s still aggressive? Hahahahaha, I guess no matter what I type, you’ll call it aggressive, in that case. Ok – call me aggressive, what’s next?

          • Kai

            When did cursing become a prerequisite for “aggressive”? You were being insulting, in what I consider an “unnecessarily aggressive” manner.

            No, it does matter what you type. You have made many comments that I don’t consider “unnecessarily aggressive”.

          • Kai

            “Laowai” is like “gaijin” or even “negro”. It is not originally or inherently a slur but it can and may even be in the process of becoming one. This is based on how it has, in some cases, been used as one or how it has been interpreted as one by others (fairly or unfairly). So long as people continue using or interpreting it as a slur, it will become one.

            This is also the reason why “yellow people” has become a slur in the English language while “laowai” hasn’t become a slur in the Chinese language. The former has become a slur because the society of that language has reached a consensus on it being so. The latter hasn’t become a slur because the society of that language hasn’t reached a consensus on it being so. Outside pushback on the word may influence that society, which is why China is seeing less “老外” and more “外国人” or “外籍” being promoted as proper verbiage in the press and by the government. The same has happened in Japan with “gaijin”.

            Alex isn’t wrong but it would’ve been more accurate to say isn’t necessarily a slur but can be used or interpreted as one.

          • Rick in China

            Lots of old people use words, without racist connotation from THEIR perspective, but it would most definitely be interpreted as racist by those who hear it. As such, their family/friends will often be like, “Hey! You can’t say that, ok?” because it’s offensive to *other* people. It doesn’t really matter how you intend something, to strangers, if you’re absolutely received as offensive..does it? Are you seriously saying that if I don’t actually harbour some prejudice, I can freely use any word that’s descriptive of someone if I don’t understand why other people would be offended by it, and should get a pass from anyone who *is* offended by it?

          • Kai

            You’re telling me something I myself have said repeatedly before (example).

            It doesn’t really matter how you intend something, to strangers, if you’re absolutely received as offensive..does it?

            Intention matters a whole damn lot. It is precisely because too many people intended “oriental” as a slur that it has become one. Same with “negro”. If these people never used such terms in a pejorative way, these inherently neutral terms may not have become pejorative. I have throughout this thread sided with you and Probotector that “laowai” used negatively can indeed be a racist slur. As both you and Probo qualified, it’s still important to acknowledge the word is very often used completely neutrally and without any malice whatsoever. This fact should mitigate the offense that people are taking over the term’s mere usage, like Mateusz’s original comment expressing angst at the term in the above Chinese article.

            Are you seriously saying that if I don’t actually harbour some prejudice, I can freely use any word that’s descriptive of someone if I don’t understand why other people would be offended by it, and should get a pass from anyone who *is* offended by it?

            You’re putting words in my mouth and strawmanning me. Please quote anything I have said to suggest anything remotely close to this. Instead, I have (see above) explicitly emphasized how words are interpreted is important for how a word becomes a racist slur.

            The issue here shouldn’t be whether or not “laowai” is a racist slur, but about discerning when it is.

          • Mateusz82

            Yeah… it’s not like China has more than one ethnicity. I mean, there’s only one, single ethnic group in China. This Rick fellow probably thinks China has multiple ethnicities, like, I dunno… more than 50. How crazy is that?

          • Alex Dương

            China is multiethnic, but it isn’t a nation of immigrants. Moreover, almost all of the ethnicities are Asian in origin, and often times, you can’t tell them apart by looks alone. You’re not going to be able to tell Zhuang, Hui, Manchu, and Miao from Han.

          • Mateusz82

            Not any more, due to the xenophobic policy on immigration, but historically, people were allowed to immigrate (there is a reason for ethnic groups such as Russians and Koreans in China). And while most are of Asian origin, they don’t all look alike. I have personally met Chinese people who were white. It is racist to view them as less “Asian”, less belonging in China because they aren’t yellow, yet they are assumed to be “foreigner”.

          • Alex Dương

            “Historically”…like, when?

            And while most are of Asian origin, they don’t all look alike.

            You’re not going to be able to tell a Han apart from a a Zhuang any more than you can tell a Brit apart from a German by looks alone. Cultural differences and shibboleths are used to tell people of the same race apart, not arbitrary rules of thumb about how high your cheekbones are.

            I have personally met Chinese people who were white. It is racist to view them as less “Asian”, less belonging in China because they aren’t
            yellow, yet they are assumed to be “foreigner”.

            Whites who live in China and have Chinese citizenship have the right to be offended at being called 老外 since they are not foreign. You, however, weren’t born in China. And unless you renounced your U.S. citizenship and became a PRC citizen, you aren’t Chinese either. So you’ve no right to complain that you are considered a foreigner; you are a foreigner.

          • Mateusz82

            Like, in the past. Otherwise, how would people or Russian or Korean origin become Chinese?

            I can tell an Arab apart from a Han, or a Hui apart from a Uyghur.

            All whites in China have the right to be offended, since it is a racial slur, only tangentially connected to nationality. No one checks my passport to see if I am Chinese or not. Do you also say yellows who live in the US, but don’t have US citizenship, have no right to be offended at being called “chink”, not until they become US citizens (something much easier for them to do, than Americans in China).

            I have every right to be offended at racism, and you have no right to try to belittle me, and try to keep me in my place.

          • Alex Dương

            Like, in the past. Otherwise, how would people or Russian or Korean origin become Chinese?

            Huh, I dunno, how about these countries border China?

            I can tell an Arab apart from a Han, or a Hui apart from a Uyghur.

            Arabs aren’t one of the 56 recognized ethnic groups, and not all Uyghurs look Turkic.

            All whites in China have the right to be offended, since it is a racial slur, only tangentially connected to nationality. No one checks my passport to see if I am Chinese or not. Do you also say yellows who live in the US, but don’t have US citizenship, have no right to be offended at being called “chink”, not until they become US citizens
            (something much easier for them to do, than Americans in China).

            It’s not a racial slur. You’re mad at being called a foreigner in China even though…you’re a foreigner in China.

          • Mateusz82

            So… if there is no immigration… then… how did they get from those bordering countries into China? Do you not know how immigration works?

            You are correct. Arabs aren’t one of the official ethnicities. Also, that is irrelevant.

            You are correct again. And again… you made a statement, but don’t have a point to go with it.

            Answer this, if you can, if it has nothing to do with race, how can someone “look foreign”, or have a “foreign face”? It is a racial slur, used to attack someone’s race. I’m mad at the racism in the use of the term, and in racists who feel the need to defend it.

          • Alex Dương

            So… if there is no immigration… then… how did they get from those bordering countries into China? Do you not know how immigration
            works?

            Do you not know that borders change and that things such as political exiles and refugees exist? This is getting beyond the point, which is that China, unlike the U.S. et al., is not a nation of immigrants.

            Answer this, if you can, if it has nothing to do with race, how can someone “look foreign”, or have a “foreign face”? It is a racial slur, used to attack someone’s race. I’m mad at the racism in the use of the term, and in racists who feel the need to defend it.

            It is not used to attack someone’s race, and your argument is absurd. If you call a white person “white,” are you attacking his race? No, you are not.

          • Kai

            You don’t have a right to feigning offense when there is none intended. Alex is not trying to belittle you or keep you in your place. You are straw-manning him and that is dishonest behavior on your part.

          • Mateusz82

            I’m not feigning offense. He is being offensive. You don’t have the right to tell me to just accept racism.

          • Alex Dương

            In and of itself, it is not a slur. Can it be used as one? Sure, but then so can many other terms which are also not slurs, per se.

          • Mateusz82

            That can be said of any word. No slur is inherently a slur. That particular word, however, is used as one. That usage is what gives it the status of slur.

          • Alex Dương

            That particular word, however, is used as one. That usage is what gives it the status of slur.

            Some blacks don’t like being called black. Doesn’t mean “black” is a slur.

          • KamikaziPilot

            I think you’re wasting your time arguing with this poster, every post I remember he’s posted here has been about portraying himself as a victim of Chinese oppression, including arguing semantics regarding various Chinese words. He gets off on this portrayal, so you should stop feeding him.

          • Alex Dương

            Agreed. I’m preaching to the choir here, but I have to say that I find it facepalm worthy that people who grew up largely without facing any kind of racial discrimination are acting as if they have a monopoly on being discriminated against.

          • Kai

            No, a lot of slurs are inherently a slur, like “nigger” and “chink” or “wetback”. They were coined to be slurs so they ARE inherently slurs.

            “Laowai” was not coined as a slur so it is not inherently a slur. The usage of it in the article was not also that of a slur, yet you have claimed and continue to insist it.

          • Kai

            No one is telling you to accept racism. People are challenging whether or not what you assert as “racism” is in fact “racism”. Words have meanings shaped by mainstream conventions, you don’t get to say something is something just because you say so.

          • Guest

            There used to be an art to trolling. Nowadays it seems to just read like teenage angst.

          • Probotector

            Yeah people in Henan often ask me if I am a foreigner or Xinjiangren, as if they’re mutually exclusive.

          • Probotector

            I can tell Hui from Han.

          • Robert Bray

            I realise that this is a touch late, so my apologies :P

            I hadn’t really considered this, however as an Australian, our White Australia policy was recent enough that non-whites/Aborigines are probably immigrants. It’s a safe bet (To the point that the only time I could really hear an Australian accent was when I came across a very rare ethnically Chinese woman who’d been raised there)

            However, we would basically never refer to someone as a foreigner. If we need to add a descriptor to identify a person, we’re normally as specific as possible.

          • Alex Dương

            Australia, like Canada and the U.S., is also much more multiethnic than China is. It’s 12% Asian; China is nowhere close to 12% white.

          • Robert Bray

            Reread the bit about the effect of our white Australia policy. Particularly outside of Sydney, those Asians are almost certainly immigrants. This will change rapidly over the few decades, but at present if you’re not white or aboriginal, you’re almost certainly an immigrant.

          • Alex Dương
          • Robert Bray

            Please don’t assume that information you receive that isn’t in line your basic reading of statistics is patronising.

            I’m doing nothing more or less than correcting something that, based on my personal experience is incorrect.

            Now:
            To begin with, you’re right, it ended 41 years ago. However, you’ll note I’d said particularly outside of Sydney (Really, I should have said outside of Sydney and Melbourne on reading up a bit more)

            Australia isn’t quite like Europe or America. It’s huge with islands of population surrounded by seas of nothing.

            Effectively, there are five noteworthy cities: Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane (where I grew up), Perth and Adelaide. (Canberra is a political capital only, Hobart and Darwin simply aren’t worth mentioning. Outside of these areas isn’t worth mentioning when it comes to immigration. I only reluctantly add Adelaide to the list of cities to care about.

            Even after this, immigration tended to focus on these cities in the order I’d given for fairly obvious reasons – when you migrate to a country, you look for two things. Work and ideally some kind of support structure (Such as your own countrymen who’ve done the same thing)

            This was compounded by that no major city is less than about 800km from another city. To get from one to another requires a minimum of an eight hour drive or a flight (with nothing but small towns dotted in between). By European standards, it’s not just that countries are smaller, but that LOTS of countries are smaller than that drive. As the crow flies, the trip from Brisbane to Sydney is similar to the trip from London to Berlin. Unless you’ve got a specific reason, you didn’t go. Brisbane to Melbourne is roughly similar to London to Rome.

            So what happened in Sydney could take years or decades before the same effect had filtered to Brisbane.

            Now, with this in mind, in 1981 (two years before I was born) only 2.7% of immigrants were Asian.

            Or to put it another way, if things were averaged out between all regions and without checking the numbers closely, significantly less than 1% of people even had a chance of being Australian Born Chinese in my generation.

            However, this immigration (as with most non-European immigration) was focused on Sydney and Melbourne. Places like Brisbane and Perth were still basically European.

            Now, I’ve never been to Perth, but this problem in Brisbane was compounded by that the place is huge. A scratch under 16,000 km2 (London is a little over half this). The Chinese community in Brisbane is largely centred around a suburb called Eight mile plains. Or to put it another way, the remainder of an immigration wave that focused on Sydney and Melbourne focused again on an area that Europeans didn’t really go to. Leaving everything else European based.

            Now, this has changed, but only over the last decade. The Brisbane CBD (Central Business District – Very few people actually live near the centre of Brisbane. It’s almost purely commercial) started to have a large visible Asian presence about ten years ago. This is basically comprised of students, rather than people who were born and raised there.

            As for other races… Again, Sydney is a bit different, but in Brisbane if you’re light enough, you’re basically assumed to be of European descent. Particularly helped by the wide range of features that you can have coming over from Europe.

            The upshot of all this being, as I have said before, that people who are visibly of a non-European/Aboriginal descent are, particularly where I grew up, almost certainly immigrants. I can think of precisely one time I came across a Chinese person with an Australian accent.

            And yet, we would still never consider referring to someone who appeared to be non-European as a foreigner.

          • Disney English

            Yeah, yeah. It’s easy to completely overlook the fact that China is far, far from as diverse and multicultural as ‘western countries’ (as a Westerner yourself you should be aware of how much of a massive generalisation you just made) and that your average Chinese person is much less used to be around people from other countries as your average ‘Westerner’. An Irish guy I know told me that in the 70s his mum once stopped in the street to watch a black man who was walking the other way. She even said ‘look, a black man’ and pointed him out.

          • Disney English

            Basically, as China continues to become more diverse people will gradually develop a more sophisticated view of foreigners. In the mean time, they will continue to express views that used to be extremely commonplace in Western countries, and are still fairly common among old people even in countries such as America or the UK.

          • Disney English

            What a ridiculous over-generalisation. Aside from the fact that Western societies vary greatly, you can still find plenty of ‘Westerners’ who are not used to being around foreigners and hold views just as unrefined as those Chinese people who, also, are not used to being around foreigners.

          • Rick in China

            Yep! Racists exist in many countries. Your point?

            By the way I don’t get why you’ve managed to respond to my same group of comments all in succession, 3 times, in a very short period of time with a relatively similar answer. I don’t know if it’s edits, or you are literally just on a rant spree to defend obvious racism with “well some peasants and old people in other countries do too.”

          • Disney English

            Saying ‘laowai’ is racism? Pull your head out of your arse. The multiple replies were because it didn’t show the first two as actually being posted.

          • Mateusz82

            Yes, it is racism. Telling someone “Pull your head out of your arse” doesn’t make it not racist.

          • Disney English

            ‘laowai’ is not racist. Stop being a whiny little bitch.

          • Mateusz82

            It is. Stop being a child. Calling someone “a whiny little bitch” for opposing racism doesn’t help you to sound like a grown up.

          • Disney English

            It’s not racist. Stop being such a pussy.

          • Kai

            Once a comment section or thread reaches a number of views and you click a link to be taken directly to that comment, Disqus will hide older comments it thinks as not being immediately relevant. These older comments will only appear if you fully maximize and load all the comments in the section with the “load more comments” button at the bottom of the comments section. This is the primary reason why people sometimes no longer see comments they thought they have already made. They were hidden for you, but they are still there and visible to others.

          • Disney English

            Well cheers for the info ^^

          • bujiebuke

            Alright… I’m going to assume your posing a serious question. My experience living in the U.S. and Canada is that the answer depends a lot in the area that you reside in. The closer you are to the midwest and to the south, the fewer politically correct people there are. It’s not uncommon for a local news anchor to refer to a Chinese American as a “Chinaman”. Most likely because they had no idea it could be taken as an offense, as difficult as that might sound. There’s a lot more similarities than differences between these people and the people you often describe as “fucking peasants” on this site.

            If you believe that a white foreigner might have a different experience living in China than say, an Asian American, then would you accept that a nonwhite person would have a different experience living in a western country than a white person?

          • Mateusz82

            I’m going to assume you’re posing a serious answer.

            A news anchor was fired for referring to Jeremy Lin as a “Chink in the armor”… how many Chinese newscasters have been fired for slurs?

            Why do you mix terms? You refer to one group as “white foreigner” and another as “Asian American”… you’re bias is rather blatant. Would you refer to someone as a “yellow foreigner living in a Western country”, compared with an American?

            A white person in China (Chinese, as well as non-Chinese) would have a different experience than a yellow person (both Chinese and non-Chinese), and vice versa.

            However, this is about how white people are treated in China. There is no need to derail it with “Well, Western countries are also racist.” That doesn’t help solve anything. Actually addressing racism with more than dismissal actually will solve it.

            Also, it doesn’t help to further “Blood and soil” ideology, that only people of a certain color/race really belong in a certain country/region.

          • bujiebuke

            What person doesn’t know that the word “chink” is considered a racist slur, especially for a newscaster that oh, I don’t know, should have a minimum amount of vocabulary to know this. There’s a large degree of difference between calling someone chink and chinaman.

            Also, I’m not making a blanket comment here. If you read his entire thread, I was referring to the same terms that he was using, “white foreigner”.

            It’s also not derailing if the question is whether Alex might have had a different experience in China because of his ethnicity.

            Now as I look back, that entire exchange between him and Alex is gone or was on another thread. So yeah, this probably made no sense to you at all. And I can’t copy and paste relavent comments because I can’t find it.

          • Mateusz82

            Ignorant people, the same who don’t know that “laowai” isn’t a slur. While I don’t doubt that some may be legitimately ignorant of the offensiveness of the word, most seem to know it’s a slur, but use it anyway (and tell the offended party that the onus is on them to just take it).

            I do understand the use of others’ terminology, but without quotes, it’s hard to tell if they are your words, or someone else’s.

          • Rick in China

            “It’s not uncommon for a local news anchor to refer to a Chinese American as a “Chinaman”.”

            Clips please. Lots, since it’s so “not uncommon”. Then I’ll show you the outrage and firings that follow each.

            Look, your entire post is doing nothing more than saying that racism still exists in some parts of other countries. That doesn’t deter from the fact that pointing at a white person here, and saying, “Look, it’s a laowai!” is often taken as an offensive/uncomfortable/equivalent to any racial slur by the recipient, and no matter how hard you try to justify it, needs to be changed, because it’s fucking ignorant use of language and only goes to show how peasanty and untravelled the users of these phrases in these circumstance are. I’m not saying people aren’t like that in another area of another country, they are, but I’d look down and admonish them just the same…wait, even MORE, because I at least think they should know better.

          • Probotector

            “…it’s fucking ignorant use of language and only goes to show how peasanty and untravelled the users of these phrases in these circumstance are.”

            Moreover, it indicates that the people that use the term so nonchalantly are very superficial, who can only see people in terms of race, and then use that as the yardstick to decide how much respect they’ll afford a person.

          • Rick in China

            Exactly. In the context of this argument, all of the ‘yellow mainlanders and yellow foreigners’ are saying they absolutely wouldn’t be offended at being called such, HOWEVER, we know it’s bullshit:

            Can you even imagine if, you were wandering around saying, “Hey!看,黄色的大陆人!”. Right, nobody would be uncomfortable, feel awkward or offended, feel like you were saying something negatively towards them.. they’d all nod and say “Yes! We are! Good Chinese!”

            Or if you were talking to a woman, and said, “You know, I really like yellow mainlanders like you…” My god.. the bullshit in this thread has reached tipping point. The bottom line is – no yellow mainlander has the right to say what is and isn’t a *slur* towards those who are claiming offence, especially when it’s so obviously used as one daily by so many people.

          • Probotector

            I think another aspect of it is that Alex, Kai, bujuke et al are unable to comprehend, and are by implication insensitive towards what it actually feels like to be labeled simply because of one’s race, and to live in a society where that is the status quo.

          • Kai

            I think another aspect of it is that Alex, Kai, bujuke et al are unable to comprehend, and are by implication insensitive towards what it actually feels like to be labeled simply because of one’s race, and to live in a society where that is the status quo.

            This is really ignorant and offensive of you when I have been consistently fair to you and have even sided with you in disagreement with Alex. You have previously appreciated Kamikazi acknowledging that he may not truly understand what it is like for you as a white person in China, but here you turn around and pretend you know anything about whether or not and how I, Alex, or Bujibuke have ben “labeled” simple because of our race?

            Are you fucking shitting me? What the fuck is wrong with you? How do you not see your blatant presumptive double-standard garbage in such a comment? How do you not stop yourself from saying such utter shit?

            When I have repeatedly and expressly acknowledged that there is negative discrimination against white people in China and that people do have cause to be offended by certain labels depending on how they are used, you come and throw this garbage in my face? I don’t know what it feels like to be labeled by my race? I don’t understand racism or racial discrimination?

            Again, what the fuck is wrong with you? How the fucking hell did you think this was a remotely intelligent thing to say?

          • Probotector

            Lol it’ great to see you rage, but come on, you’re an Asian in Asia, how much racism, by comparison to me, do you really receive?

            “When I have repeatedly and expressly acknowledged that there is negative discrimination against white people in China and that people do have cause to be offended by certain labels depending on how they are used”

            You seem to be telling us all out arguments have no merit.

          • Kai

            come on, you’re an Asian in Asia, how much racism, by comparison to me, do you really receive?

            Are you seriously this retarded? Have I always been an Asian in Asia? Are you so sure Alex and bujibuke are Asians in Asia?

            You seem to be telling us all out arguments have no merit.

            You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Please go back and re-read my comments and if you still feel I am “telling” you your arguments have no merit, please QUOTE AND LINK to me saying so. Otherwise, stop thinking up random shit without any basis.

          • Probotector

            Ok, I know you’re Asian American, but did you really get called chink/chinaman/foreigner every goddamed day, in a society where racism is debunked as ignorance and only held by a fringe minority? Even if you did, you don’t get it now do you, and if Chinese are rude to you about being American, I seriously doubt it happens that often. Kamikazi and doung live in the US so what do they really know about a whiter person’s issues in China. They’ve even admitted so.

            “Kai • an hour ago

            No, Mateusz’s comment doesn’t have merit. ”

            No comprehension problems, memory problems on your part

          • Kai

            Do you seriously not understand how fantastically retarded it was for you to presume that we are “unable to comprehend, and are by implication insensitive towards what it actually feels like to be labeled simply because of one’s race”?

            Saying Mateusz’s comment doesn’t have merit doesn’t equate to me “telling [you] all [your] arguments have no merit.”

            ESPECIALLY when I have explicitly defended the parts of your arguments that have merit to others.

            You have a reading comprehension AND memory problem.

          • Probotector

            Re-reading my comment, it was insensitive, and I’ll concede that you’ve experienced racism in your life before, and such incidents, although nowhere near as frequent or socially acceptable, were probably more traumatising. My apologies, I should have qualified it better. What I meant is, you guys don’t know what it’s like for a white person (or a person perceived to be foreign) to be constantly labeled by their race nonchalantly, nor the frustration that this is the way it will always be for us.

            My argument is pretty much the same as Mateusz82’s in the sense that we are both claiming that using foreigner to refer to a person based on their race, be it meant as an insult or not, is still insulting. I only conceded that the pure definition of foreigner is not racist, but it is more often than not used in a racist way in China.

          • Kai

            It wasn’t just insensitive, it was offensively presumptuous. You need to understand that you do not have a monopoly on racial victimization and you should not go out on a baseless limb to say others are “incapable of comprehending” and thus “insensitive”. You have absolutely zero basis for this yet you went ahead and said it.

            Can you cite ANYTHING that we have said to suggest we ar “incapable of comprehending” and thus “insensitive” to racial discrimination? No, because you are accusing only on the basis of limited disagreement with certain things you have said. You somehow interpreted limited disagreement into us not comprehending and being insensitive to racism. What you said wasn’t just insensitive, it was just stupid. That’s what’s so infuriating about this, that you have absolutely no basis for making such a claim about us yet you went ahead and did it anyway. You straw man people way too often and way too easily.

            What I meant is, you guys don’t know what it’s like for a white person (or a person perceived to be foreign) to be constantly labeled by their race nonchalantly, nor the frustration that this is the way it will always be for us.

            I don’t think it will “always” be like this for you guys. If you insist on believing so, then it’ll be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Otherwise, recognize that things do change and things often can get better, and you also can play a positive role in influencing change if you choose to do so.

            We may not know 100% what it is like to be a white person, but we do know what it is like to be frustrated by discrimination or being “othered”. Likewise, you don’t know what it is like to be Asian, or Chinese, so you too should keep that in mind when you are passing judgement and making unfair generalizations and hyperboles about Chinese people, which you’ve done consistently on cS.

            I want to believe you can see how this goes both ways.

            My argument is pretty much the same as Mateusz82’s in the sense that we are both claiming that using foreigner to refer to a person based on their race, be it meant as an insult or not, is still insulting. I only conceded that the pure definition of foreigner is not racist, but it is more often than not used in a racist way in China.

            And my disagreement and those of others is that it is NOT “more often than not used in a racist way in China”. It is more often than not used in a completely neutral way. In saying this, we acknwoledge that it can and does get used in pejorative, racist ways. We are saying you should take offense in those situations but to avoid taking personal offense when the term is not used in pejorative ways. though you are free to explain to people why you feel the term should no longer be used because it is politically incorrect and even without intent, it is liable to be interpreted as offensive.

            Please re-read that because I have been saying the same things throughout and I don’t want you to continue misrepresenting what I’ve said. I think it is unnecessary to take offense when one can discern that something wasn’t intended offensively, but I have no issue with people, foreign or otherwise, wanting to influence Chinese society to marginalize use of the word “laowai”. It’s the same as why I have no issue with people wanting to discourage “oriental” or “negro” or “gaijin” or “gringo” or whatever. I’ve said the same thing the last time “laowai” was debated on cS: if sme people are going to interprete it negatively, there’s no profit in insisting on using it when there are perfectly good substitutes. As I said, no one has ever been faulted for being careful with their speech. No one will die from being more specific instead of general.

            That said, you wanting to Chinese people to be more sensitive to your feelings should come with you also demonstrating more sensitivity when it comes to talking about “Chinese” people/society/whatever. You’ve been critical of how “laowai” unfairly generalizes you down to your race, but consider how you have unfairly generalized Chinese people yourself. You have to live up to the standards you want others to live up to. You have to be what you want them to be.

          • Probotector

            Wow, I just tried to be the bigger man and apologise, and you threw it in my face.

          • Kai

            You need to understand how your first response laughing at my outrage did not predispose me to interpreting you as being sincere. It took you THREE subsequent comments before you “conceded” and apologized, with qualification no less.

            You can’t seriously think people you expressly laughed at and whose own experiences with racism you dismissed as being insufficient to understand racism would immediately forgive you when you finally make a qualified apology, do you?

            Apologizing is not you trying to be “the” bigger man, it is only you possibly being “a” bigger man from the man who made the offensive presumptions in the first place.

            Continuing to be incredulous and upset with you after you apologized was me not being “the” bigger man. That’s my failure. I could’ve been the bigger man by accepting your apology and leaving it at that but instead I went on to criticize how this episode echoes so many episodes of you carelessly making remarks with zero basis in the past.

            It doesn’t mean I don’t accept your apology, it just means I have a lot of difficulty believing you are sincere based on how often this has been an issue and that your future behavior will be better, that you will think more before you speak, or that you will actually cite sufficient basis for things you accuse of others or positions you project onto others.

          • KenjiAd

            I think you over-stepped here.

            You are a foreigner in China, but Kai isn’t a foreigner in America. So you being called a foreigner by Chinese and Kai being called a foreigner by other Americans, has a fundamentally different implication obviously.

            One persistent discrimination Asian Americans face even today is this “foreign” image, even though they are as Americans as, say, any other Americans.

            I’m not an American but I’ve lived there most of my adult life. In the Japanese American community, some people still are quite upset at the fact that Japanese Americans were interned (imprisoned actually) during WWII, while Italian/Germans Americans were not.

            So yeah, I’m sure Kai understands how frustrating you might feel. At least I do, so let’s stop this “you don’t understand me because you are not me” crap.

          • Probotector

            This was already rectified; the statement was retracted and an apology given.

          • bujiebuke

            If you actually read my posts, you’ll realize that I know exactly what it feels like living in a place as a minority. You think just because your an overly sensitive white guy living in China that I can’t possibly understand what Rick or others are saying?

            It’s called empathy, a humanistic quality that you apparently lack.

          • Alex Dương

            It blows my mind that actually believe what you wrote there. Asian Americans are ~5% of the U.S. population, and the distribution across the country is very uneven. For example, one-third of all Asian Americans live in one state (California).

            I mention that because I did not grow up in California. I grew up in parts of the country where there were very few Asians. I don’t think my high school was even 1% Asian. While racial discrimination was not an everyday thing, it wasn’t nonexistent either. I experienced racial taunts every now and then.

            So I’m well aware of what it’s like to be the target of discrimination. That’s partially why I am not sympathetic to the claim that 老外 is a slur, especially since there are actual slurs in Chinese like 洋鬼, 白鬼, and 鬼佬. If you were complaining that you were being called that, I would completely relate to your experience and say that you are fully justified to be upset and to respond back.

            But you aren’t complaining about that. You’re complaining that you’re being called a 老外. That’s not like someone running up to me and saying “chingchongtingtong” or calling me a chink. That’s like someone calling me Asian.

            Well, I am Asian. Being called Asian when I am isn’t a slur. It isn’t racist. Likewise, for you, being called a foreigner when you are a foreigner isn’t a slur and isn’t racist either.

          • Probotector

            We’ve been through this before. the word ‘foreigner’ in of itself is not racist, but it is often used in an insensitive, racially divisive and condescending manner, be it intended as a pejorative or not.

            Although you may be able to relate to experiencing racism, you don’t know what it’s like to live in a society where discrimination (albeit more tame that what you’ve probably experienced) is socially acceptable, is the mentality of pretty much everyone and there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s what I meant by my previous statement. I didn’t mean to imply you don’t understand racism at all, and I apologise for not conveying that better.

            If foreigner is not racist, then how come it only applies to those whose racial appearance is different from that of the Han Chinese, (esp white people), but South Koreans are not considered to be laowai, even though they come from a foreign country?

          • Kai

            We’ve been through this before. the word ‘foreigner’ in of itself is not racist, but it is often used in an insensitive, racially divisive and condescending manner, be it intended as a pejorative or not.

            If a word is “used in an insensitive, racially divisive and condescending manner”, then it is “intended as a pejorative”. That’s the definition of pejorative!

            Alex is not denying the offensiveness of the word “laowai” when it is used in an insensitive, racially divisive, and condescending manner. He, along with others, are denying that all uses of the term are in such a manner.

            Why?

            Because Mateusz, who you are illogically defending despite your own position in contradiction to his claims, has claimed and continues to insist that the word is in of itself “racist”.

            Why?

            Becaue he believes those who take offense have the authority to declare what is offensive, without realizing what a slippery slope this rationalization is.

            One question you have to ask yourself:

            Was the article above using “laowai” in a pejorative manner? Or was it used as a neutral identifier?

          • Probotector

            No, if a Chinese guy sees me a points to hid friends and says ‘laowai’ he id not trying to be rude, but I’ll still consider it offensive that he has to point me out because I look racially different.

            “Mateusz82 believes those who take offense have the authority to declare what is offensive”

            Well, who else is going to raise the issue of it being offensive, if not the ones who are the target of such a designation?

            “Was the article above using “laowai” in a pejorative manner? Or was it used as a neutral identifier?”

            Well, that’s open to interpretation. It’s certainly ignorant to refer to someone simply as ‘laowai’ when you could find out more about them.

            How about ‘a white guy’?
            or ‘a tourist’?
            or (as I mentioned before) why does his race have to come up at all. The article could have just said ‘a guy fainted’.

            Frankly, it’s poor journalism if your reporters can’t be bothered to identify a guy’s nationality, or at least mention his actual racial appearance, and lazily just say laowai, as if to imply ‘one of those people who’s not one of us’.

            This constantly comes up on CS articles, even when you guys know the nationality of the person(s) involved.

            Now, the articles aren’t originally written by yourselves, and are merely posted from elsewhere, but upon putting them up on the CS website, they could be edited to be more favourable to your large ‘laowai’ audience.

          • Kai

            No, if a Chinese guy sees me a points to hid friends and says ‘laowai’ he id not trying to be rude, but I’ll still consider it offensive that he has to point me out because I look racially different.

            1. You understand the concept of novelty, right?

            2. So ifyou agree that “laowai” is not necessarily a racist slur, then why aren’t you distancing yourself from that aspect of Mateusz’s argument?

            Well, who else is going to raise the issue of it being offensive, if not the ones who are the target of such a designation?

            Re-read what I wrote. Raising an issue is very different from declaring something to be offensive just because one says so. If I claimed “Chinese” was offensive, should I then say “who else is going to raise the issue?”

            No, man, whether or not the offense taken is reasonable and warranted has to be considered. Don’t you agree?

            Well, that’s open to interpretation. It’s certainly ignorant to refer to someone simply as ‘laowai’ when you could find out more about them.

            You’re using “open to interpretation” in a completely useless manner. In that case, EVERYTHING is open to interpretation. I could declare being called “Chinese” to be offensive because it is “open to interpretation”. This is disingenuous. If you want the “laowai” used in the article above to be considered “racist slurs”, you must articulate HOW they are in a compelling manner, NOT just because you insist they are.

            Why do you presume the reporter could find out more about the guy? The reporter viewed footage provided by the Metro company. A station attendant came in but how do you know the station attendant knows what nationality the guy is? How would the reporter find out more? How is identifying this guy as a foreigner any different from countless Western media reports that likewise identify people by their obvious traits in completely neutral non-pejorative ways?

            If you’re going to stand with Mateusz on this, you need to articulate how the reporter was using “laowai” as a “racist slur”. Otherwise, please, for your own sake, distance yourself from him in this regard.

            Well, that’s open to interpretation. It’s certainly ignorant to refer to someone simply as ‘laowai’ when you could find out more about them.

            Do you know how many black or Hispanic advocacy extremists make the same damn argument? Where they see any racial identifier as necessarily racist? Aren’t you the one who has repeatedly defended the use of generalizations as long as they are true? Aren’t you the one who has in the past derided claims of racism as being overly politically correct and “liberal, progressive” whatever? Yet when the presumed victim is an identity you identify with, suddenly you’re mister politically correct all anti-generalizations and demanding of people being more specific in their speech?

            You do realize how hypocritical and self-serving you appear in doing this, right?

            This constantly comes up on CS articles, even when you guys know the nationality of the person(s) involved.

            What? What makes you think we know what the nationality is of the person involved?

            Now, the articles aren’t originally written by yourselves, and are merely posted from elsewhere, but upon putting them up on the CS website, they could be edited to be more favourable to your large ‘laowai’ audience.

            No, that would betray our purpose of ACCURATE translations in both meaning and tone. It is precisely because we are faithful in our translations of words like “laowai” that cS readers can have a meaningful discussion about its meaning and connotations. We are not here to make the Chinese language more palatable and inoffensive to you, we are here to translate it as fairly and accurately as we can. If some Chinese person was talking shit about you, would you want your interpreter to lie to you and instead say he said something else so you’d look like a fool, not even knowing you were being insulted? Do you still not understand the point of this site?

          • Probotector

            My main argument in all this has been why the word ‘laowai’ needs to be used. Why is it necessary to point out someone’s racial difference, or use that as a means of judging them?

            The word foreigner, or its Chinese equivalent, is not in of itself an offensive term. You can call me a foreign national or say I have a foreign appearance or that I subscribe to a foreign culture.

            However, many in China see ‘laowai’ as the standard or only means of referring to, basically, white people (or people of another racial make up that these Chinese can’t identify), because we look different. Now, they may not intend to project hatred, but they do project ignorance, they do project that they see things only in terms of race, they do project that pointing out someone’s race is a very necessary thing to do, they do project that we are not their equals, and they imply an us vs them mentality by using this word so frequently and so nonchalantly. One also needs to consider the gratuitous giggling or chuckling that occurs often when ‘laowai’ is uttered, or when a racially non-Han person is noticed, even if it is not meant to be hateful.

            Also, notice that laowai is not bestowed upon other Han-looking foreigners, like Koreans, even if their nationality is known, making it a racially-focused word.

            I don’t believe that people that use the term laowai in such a way hate us, but they certainly are ignorant and they don’t consider us to be their equal.

          • Kai

            My main argument in all this has been why the word ‘laowai’ needs to be used.

            And so long as your argument stayed within reason as it was initially, I had been in agreement and even argued against Alex in your defense.

            Unfortunately, you then went off the deep end and began throwing unfair hyperbolic generalizations around, misrepresenting others with straw man arguments, and defending Mateusz’s illogical extremist claims.

            Why is it necessary to point out someone’s racial difference, or use that as a means of judging them?

            I don’t think it is NECESSARY but it is awfully universal and common. People around the world identify people by racial differences every single day. Most of the time, they are not “judging” them, they are merely “identifying” them. It is like identifying people by their gender. Doing so doesn’t mean people are automatically “sexist” or “judging”. You need to differentiate between “judging” and “identifying”.

            Is the above article “judging” the guy by identifying him as a “laowai”? NO.

            Now, they may not intend to project hatred,

            Why don’t I see you impressing that point on Mateusz, someone who glaringly fails to see this fact?

            but they do project ignorance, they do project that they see things only in terms of race, they do project that pointing out someone’s race is a very necessary thing to do,

            Seeing people in terms of racial differences or otherness is hardly unique to the Chinese. This goes on every day in every society. It only becomes a problem if it is done in a pejorative manner. Alex had a valid point about heterogeniety and homogeniety. In homogeous Asia, there’s more “foreigner” term usage. In more heterogenous countries like the US, we have “Asians”, “Hispanics”, “black”, “white”, etc. In both situations, people are seeing, identifying, and referring to people by racial differences.

            Again, it isn’t “necessary” but it is universal and commonplace, and generally accepted as perfectly fine as long as it isn’t pejorative.

            Back in that story where some British guy allegedly attempted to rape some Chinese girl in Beijing, British people were coming out in droves stressing how the guy wasn’t “white” British and trying to identify him as some other race or ethnic background. People see race. It’s unavoidable. What IS avoidable is using race in pejorative ways.

            they do project that we are not their equals,

            No, merely using the word “laowai” does not “project” that you guys are not their “equals”. That is how you interpret it. It isn’t something they are necessarily and unilaterally “projecting”. Identifying you as a “laowai” only says you are “different”, not that you are not “their equals”. When the US Census counts me as East-Asian, it is not saying I am not the equal of White Caucasians. It is merely identifying me as different. Do not conflate the two. It is dishonest.

            and they imply an us vs them mentality by using this word so frequently and so nonchalantly.

            Yes, any term that delineates difference creates an “us vs them” dynamic but you are invoking the ANTAGONISTIC “us vs. them” dynamic. Identifying difference is not promoting antagonism. Don’t conflate these two either.

            One also needs to consider the gratuitous giggling or chuckling that occurs often when ‘laowai’ is uttered, or when a racially non-Han person is noticed, even if it is not meant to be hateful.

            I already asked you this: You do understand the concept of novelty, right?

            Perhaps for the first time in your life, you are the object of novelty, the minority. Welcome to the club. Many other people have experienced the same in their lives. We understand how it can be irksome. We have REPEATEDLY said as much, yet you keep hammering it home as if we don’t understand. No, we understand just fine and we have very honestly agreed that it is irksome. I have even encouraged you to explain why it is irksome to Chinese people in order to do your part to discourage its use. Why? Because I don’t see any profit in needlessly and inadvertently causing offense.

            But I will not accept ridiculous fallacious arguments that the term itself is inherently pejorative, antagonistic, or “judgemental”. That’s simply intellectually dishonest. What more, it is not remotely necessary to make the point that “laowai” when used as a pejorative is in fact offensive.

            So if everyone agrees that “laowai” used as a pejorative is offensive and condemns such usage, why do you want to slide down over to Mateusz’s deep-end arguing that “laowai” used as a neutral identifier is also a “racist slur”?

            You are sabotaging yourself by aligning with him.

            It also remains that you are guilty of a double-standard:

            Aren’t you the one who has repeatedly defended the use of generalizations as long as they are true? Aren’t you the one who has in the past derided claims of racism as being overly politically correct and “liberal, progressive” whatever? Yet when the presumed victim is an identity you identify with, suddenly you’re mister politically correct all anti-generalizations and demanding of people being more specific in their speech?

            You do realize how hypocritical and self-serving you appear in doing this, right?

            “Laowai” is by definiton a generalization. It is an identifier for groups of people, just like “Chinese” is. You chafe at being generalized with it, but you on the other hand defend generalizing others. I really hope you are reflecting upon this inconsistency of yours. I really hope you can see your past behavior in a new light with this pointed out to you.

            When you are negatively generalized, you take offense. As such, you should no longer argue as you have in the past that others shouldn’t be offended when they are negatively generalized.

          • spod

            Interesting discussion. I never met a Chinese national in my time there that thought it was possible for anyone from another country to become “Chinese”. In many other countries you can become a citizen after which you expect to be referred to as that nationality – I can not see that happening in China. I agree that in many other countries a writer of any published article would be obliged to find out the nationality of an unidentified person not merely lump them in as foreign – or run the risk of being called racist. I am sure you can find heaps of examples of this in the “western media” and they would be racist and people defending them would be called ignorant for not seeing the offence.

          • bujiebuke

            “Clips please. Lots, since it’s so “not uncommon”. Then I’ll show you the outrage and firings that follow each.”
            – OK. Here you go, enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKKeTAUXDA

            “Look, your entire post is doing nothing more than saying that racism still exists in some parts of other countries. ”

            – You can interpret it that way. But I was actually responding to a specific question you posed to Alex in that a foreigner’s experience in China might be different based on his race/color or what have you. What I’m saying is that’s it’s TRUE, your experience as a caucasian would be different than someone say an Asian American (until they start speaking broken mandarine). I only add that this would be universally true for pretty much any part of the world. For whatever reason, I can’t find that goddamn thread now, oh well.

            “”Look, it’s a laowai!” ”

            – I know what your referring to here. For me it’s more jarring and uncomfortable than it is offensive. It makes me think what a tiny world those people must live in that they would get excited over seeing someone with a different skin tone than themselves. This happens in any part of the world, some more than others. Yeah, it needs to change, it probably will, but it’ll take a really long time.

        • Mateusz82

          “Chink” would be the closest English equivalent.

          • Alex Dương

            Pfft. Absolute nonsense.

          • Mateusz82

            Explain.

            If it is indeed nonsense, then back it up.

          • Alex Dương

            As I told Probotector, the Chinese call themselves 老中, Indians 老印, Koreans 老韓, Americans 老美, British 老英, and so forth. There’s a “formula” of sorts: 老+X. None of these is used pejoratively or as slurs.

            “Chink” is a slur. Chinese Americans don’t refer to themselves as “chinks.” Similarly, “Jap” is a slur. Japanese Americans don’t refer to themselves as “japs.” “Gook” is a slur. Vietnamese Americans don’t refer to themselves as “gooks.”

            So there’s a “formula” of sorts there as well. But those are all slurs. 老+X doesn’t generate slurs.

          • Guest

            老+X is a common use of endearment. You add the surname of your friends to “X” when you’re close enough to them. You add the surname of PRC leaders to them if you feel that they are better than you usually expect the government. You add it to different terms to add affection, such as terms for “uncle”, “mum”, “dad”, “older brother”, “older sister” etc. The thread here reflects LaoWais taking offense because of their ignorance of this part of Chinese culture and being on the pointy end of abuse when people use this term on them. Much ado about nothing. I suggest Mateus, Rick, Probo etc should all find a different problem to encapsulate their dissatisfaction at being excluded and abused in China.

          • Chaz

            Chinaman

    • KamikaziPilot

      *sigh* another foreigner with a victimization mentality, you and Probotector would make a good couple. The reason I remember you is because your constant theme is finding ways to pass yourself off as a “victim” without any perspective on the Chinese point of view. Sad that some have to resort to these kinds of tactics to make themselves feel better.

      • Probotector

        Oh please. Being relentlessly referred to as ‘foreigner’ is meant to discriminate. The issue is why does it have to be highlighted all the time that we are different? Why can’t we just be called ‘him’ or ‘her’, or ‘person’.

        “without any perspective on the Chinese point of view”

        The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.

        I wonder, are you cool with me calling you ‘Jap’ from now on? I mean, it’s what you are isn’t it, so how can it be offensive?

        • KamikaziPilot

          Discriminate yes, but it’s both positive and negative discrimination, true? While I have no doubt China is a more race-conscious society than Western ones, at least on the surface, I also know there’s a ton of positive discrimination based on skin color too. To dwell on the negative while ignoring the positive discrimination directed at people with your skin color makes those with your attitude lose credibility. While you, me and probably most others prefer to be treated as just another person, the fact is in China it’s not the case but to always dwell on the negative discrimination you receive while ignoring the positive, makes it seem you have a victimization mentality.

          So learning another person’s language, speaking to them in their (foreign) language, hiring them for the color of their skin, watching their movies, taking pictures with them, flocking to their chain stores is looking down on anyone foreign? That’s news to me.

          “Jap” was historically used as a racial slur, but if you want to say “laowai” is in the same category, I totally disagree but I’m not going to argue with you, only to say that don’t some whites use that term to describe themselves? OH and you can call me whatever you want, I’ll let others decide if it’s a racial slur.

          • Probotector

            I was being sarcastic with the ‘Jap’ remark, I wouldn’t actually use it.

            White people that accept the term laowai are probably the self-loathing liberal progressive type.

            “So learning another person’s language, speaking to them in their (foreign) language, hiring them for the color of their skin, watching their movies, taking pictures with them, flocking to their chain stores is looking down on anyone foreign? That’s news to me.”

            Many who learn English as a second language don’t like to learn it and see it as a chore, a lot of them are disrespectful of the language anyway, often swearing gratuitously, misspelling or misusing words (esp on t shirts) and saying they don’t care when they make mistakes. Taking pictures is for their own ratification, and is often done without permission and used to take the piss. Movies and going to stores is more because they like the product therein, as opposed to because it’s some thing foreign. Typically though, a Chinese person would prefer their own products and movies most of the time.

            Really I think you guys are deflecting with the positive discrimination argument, as if it somehow is a counter-balance to racism. In any case, I don’t accept that either, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere. A foreigner generally is a victim, especially in lower third tier parts of the country, like where I am, where Chinese are notably more ignorant and cut off from the outside world, and discrimination is a continuous problem. Now you said elsewhere that you don’t know the full facts nor what it’s like for us, so you could cut us some slack. I agreed, honestly, take a day in our shoes and see if you like it that much.

          • KamikaziPilot

            My memory is a little fuzzy but I seem to recall certain white posters on CSmack using the term “laowai” right? Are they liberal, self-loathing, progressive types? I mean c’mon, you really think that?

            Well I not going to argue with your perspective about the “looking down on foreigners” part already but I really don’t believe any significant portion of Chinese “look down” on foreigners (white). That’s like saying blacks look down on whites, they may hate them but they don’t “look down” on them. A small minority maybe but I think more have an inferiority complex towards them than look down on them. Of course I know neither of us can prove we’re right.

            You may call it deflection, I say that everything is relative. And I do believe it’s a counterbalance to negative racism. I think we’ll both agree that China, at least on the surface, is much more race-conscious than the West in general. And I also think Chinese are much more ignorant of non-Chinese people than vice versa. So if that’s the case, we’re all “victims” including the Chinese themselves, wouldn’t you say? My point is that many people feel that whites specifically are treated better in general than others in China, and when they complain, it seems like they’re displaying a “victim mentality”. But you are right, I am not, nor can I ever be in your shoes, and you can never be in mine so I will have to attribute much of our difference of opinion on the colour glasses we see things through (ex. perspective).

          • Probotector

            “I mean c’mon, you really think that?”

            Absolutely, yes.

            The rest of it is mincing words and trying to pull justification where none exists. The bottom line is, to be referred to based on one’s race, in day-to-day speech and conversation is racist, as it demonstrates those who do it are superficial and can only see people in terms of race and nothing more

          • Kai

            White people that accept the term laowai are probably the self-loathing liberal progressive type.

            Or they could just be people who refuse to take offense for a word that isn’t necessarily offensive, as you yourself conceded.

            Why are you in such a rush to denigrate people with arbitrary labels for their differences in response to the term “laowai”?

            Many who learn English as a second language don’t like to learn it and see it as a chore, a lot of them are disrespectful of the language anyway, often swearing gratuitously, misspelling or misusing words (esp on t shirts) and saying they don’t care when they make mistakes. Taking pictures is for their own ratification, and is often done without permission and used to take the piss. Movies and going to stores is more because they like the product therein, as opposed to because it’s some thing foreign. Typically though, a Chinese person would prefer their own products and movies most of the time.

            None of this proves your claim that “The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.”

            Foreign goods and brands are widely considered superior and more desirable to domestic goods and brands as repeatedly proven by countless cS translations in the past. There are SOME things that Chinese people fairly consider domestic things to be better but suggesting Chinese people as “typically” prefering their own products is ridiculously at odds with the facts available.

            Also, many Chinese people prefer their own movies because of language issues and the subject-matter often being more relevant to their world and existence. It is not because they “look down on anyone foreign” or that they “don’t care about others”.

            How did you honestly expect this paragaph to justify that statement of yours?

            Really I think you guys are deflecting with the positive discrimination argument, as if it somehow is a counter-balance to racism. In any case, I don’t accept that either, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere. A foreigner generally is a victim, especially in lower third tier parts of the country, like where I am, where Chinese are notably more ignorant and cut off from the outside world, and discrimination is a continuous problem. Now you said elsewhere that you don’t know the full facts nor what it’s like for us, so you could cut us some slack. I agreed, honestly, take a day in our shoes and see if you like it that much.

            At least this paragraph is reasonable, except the “A foreigner generally is a victim” line which could arguably be an unfair hyperbole premised on misleading vividness fallacies.

          • Probotector

            “Or they could just be people who refuse to take offense for a word that isn’t necessarily offensive, as you yourself conceded.”

            …because they are progressive. Also I conceded that laowai in it’s pure form, as in its etymology is not racist, but for someone label me as that, and only that every single day, and to accompany it with pointing laughing and the sarcastic ‘hello’, most certainly is.

            “None of this proves your claim that “The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.”

            So you’re saying that Chinese refusing to speak English correctly, using swear words and putting them on a t shirt, and then when called out on it saying ‘I don’t care, it’s just English’ is not disrespectful. You’re saying that photographing someone without permission is not offensive?

            Your statement:

            “Foreign goods and brands are widely considered superior and more desirable to domestic goods and brands as repeatedly proven by countless cS translations in the past. There are SOME things that Chinese people fairly consider domestic things to be better but suggesting Chinese people as “typically” prefering their own products is ridiculously at odds with the facts available.

            Also, many Chinese people prefer their own movies because of language issues and the subject-matter often being more relevant to their world and existence. It is not because they “look down on anyone foreign” or that they “don’t care about others”.”

            is true enough, but it doesn’t stop mine from being equally true. Not all Chinese are ignorant of English or look down on foreigners, but there are a lot that do.

            It’s not hyperbole to say a foreigner is a victim, at least in the parts of China where this ignorance and xenophobia is most prevalent, if laowai is often used by many as an epithet.

          • Kai

            …because they are progressive.

            Being “progressive” has nothing to do with whether or not someone takes offense when none was intended.

            Also I conceded that laowai in it’s pure form, as in its etymology is not racist, but for someone label me as that, and only that every single day, and to accompany it with pointing laughing and the sarcastic ‘hello’, most certainly is.

            Did I say pejorative uses of “laowai” isn’t pejorative? No, I didn’t. So why are you saying this to me?

            So you’re saying that Chinese refusing to speak English correctly, using swear words and putting them on a t shirt, and then when called out on it saying ‘I don’t care, it’s just English’ is not disrespectful. You’re saying that photographing someone without permission is not offensive?

            I’m saying none of those things prove your claim that “The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.”

            but it doesn’t stop mine from being equally true.

            Yes it does, because it contradicts your statement. Both can’t be true at the same time.

            This is a true statement:

            Not all Chinese are ignorant of English or look down on foreigners, but there are a lot that do.

            This is NOT a true statement:

            The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.

            Why are you refusing to acknowledge this? Why insist on an indefensible position?

            It’s not hyperbole to say a foreigner is a victim, at least in the parts of China where this ignorance and xenophobia is most prevalent, if laowai is often used by many as an epithet.

            “Hyperbole” has a specific definition. What you said was a hyperbole according to its definition.

          • Probotector

            “This is a true statement:

            Not all Chinese are ignorant of English or look down on foreigners, but there are a lot that do.

            This is NOT a true statement:

            The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.”

            Which is why I corrected it.

            Hyperbole means exaggeration. I is not an exaggeration to say that foreigners are in some parts of China victims of discrimination.

          • Kai

            Which is why I corrected it.

            No, you tried to backpeddle hoping no one would hold you accountable. Correcting it would be acknwoledging the criticism you received and apologizing before repositioning yourself with a more defensible position. You skipped all the parts that required intellectual honesty and jumped to pretending you had original said something much more defensible.

            Hyperbole means exaggeration. I is not an exaggeration to say that foreigners are in some parts of China victims of discrimination.

            I never said that was a hyperbole, I said THIS was a hyperbole:

            The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign.

            What the hell is wrong with you? Why are you such a dishonest person?

          • Probotector

            Fine it was wrong, I mentined earlier that should qualify it with “where I am” this and that happens.

            Probotector 3 hours ago

            Are you saying that the majority of Chinese are caring and compassionate, and welcome foreigners with open arms? Certainly, it does happen, and perhaps I’m jaded by my location: Henan is a far more xenophobic and ignorant a place than Shanghai (is that still where you are), so our perceptions differ, and in that case it’s unfair for me to say that without qualifying it with the prefix “where I live in China…”

            Are we clear now?

            You call me dishonest, but refuse to accept that there are ‘foreigner’s out there in China who are victims of discrimination

          • Kai

            You call me dishonest, but refuse to accept that there are ‘foreigner’s out there in China who are victims of discrimination

            This claim itself is evidence of your dishonesty.

            Where have I ever refused to accept that there are foreigners out there in China who are victims of discrimination? When I just posted this comment explcitly sympathizing with the discrimination you feel you face. You make absurdly obvious false statements and then have the nerve to say you aren’t dishonest?

          • Probotector

            You certainly claim that we can only be offended by the term laowai when it’s used expressly as a pejorative, yet you have noted that it’s a politically incorrect term. Th point is, people don’t like being referred to simply by their race, as if it’s the only aspect of their character.

          • Kai

            I think the term is becoming politically incorrect for a lot of foreigners but it is still not widely considered so in China. My position is internally consistent. It is politically correct for some people but not so for others. Hence why there is some controversy and debate over its usage. Me saying it is considered politically incorrect for some does not mean it IS, full stop. Why else do I point out the importance of mainstream conventions and norms? Because THEY are what determines if a term actually BECOMES politically incorrect.

            The point is that usage of “laowai” is not usually used “as if that’s the only aspect of their character”. It is usually used as a mere identifier. You can criticize when it is actually used “as if it’s the only aspect of their character” but you shouldn’t pretend like that’s the only way it is used.

            Why are you unsatisfied with precisely criticizing the precise problem?

        • Kai

          Okay, as someone who has been defending you against Alex in this topic, I think you’re going a bit too far here. I’m pretty sure the vast majority of the time you are referred to as a “foreigner” is for the purposes of identification, not for the purposes of discrimination. It’s like saying “that Chinese kid” or “that black couple”, except “laowai” is a broader term (though popularly only used for white people). It is “othering” and that can be irksome indeed, but it isn’t fair for you to say “meant to discriminate” without being more specific about the usage.

          Your next sentence generalizing Chinese as not caring about others and looking down on anyone foreign is also an unfair hyperbole. I understand you’re upset that @KamikaziPilot:disqus feels there are foreigners “with a victimization mentality”, but making unfair hyperboles about Chinese people doesn’t help you dissuade him of this impression.

          As I have said elsewhere, the pejorative nature of “laowai” is in flux right now, while “Jap” isn’t. “Jap” was pretty much coined as a pejorative from the get-go as well, unlike “laowai”. You’re comparing apples to oranges. A fairer hypothetical would be how he would feel if you called him “oriental”, which is a word that was not inherently pejorative but has become interpreted as pejorative.

          Finally, you should acknowledge that Kamikazi has a valid point in his response to @Mateusz82:disqus. Mateus characterizes the use of “laowai” as a “slur” when that was not the case in the article above and is very often not the case in China at all. That the word can be interpreted as a slur does not mean it is being used as a slur, hence why Kamikazi accuses him of passing himself as a victim without any perspective on the Chinese point of view. How vitimized one should feel about being referred to as a “laowai” should indeed consider the intent of the speaker. The Chinese reporter of this article may be using what is potentially becoming a politically incorrect term, but the reporter’s point of view is not to slur the foreigner in the subway.

          Mateuz made an unfair comment, and Kamikazi made a point about it.

          • Probotector

            I mentioned this elsewhere, and Matt mentioned it too, being relentlessly referred to, (and often while there’s pointing and laughing about it) is dehumanising. Mateuz’s comment does have merit.

            “The Chinese reporter of this article may be using what is potentially becoming a politically incorrect term, but the reporter’s point of view is not to slur the foreigner in the subway.”

            If in the west undesirable, yet unintentionally offensive terms like ‘Oriental’ and ‘coloured’ are to be outlawed, I’m surprised you’re making excuses for Chinese political incorrectness. I agree it’s not meant offensively, but it still is seen that way by many because it’s ignorant, and shows that the reporter does not care about referring to non-Chinese/westerners, whatever by anything more that what is skin deep.

            Are you saying that the majority of Chinese are caring and compassionate, and welcome foreigners with open arms? Certainly, it does happen, and perhaps I’m jaded by my location: Henan is a far more xenophobic and ignorant a place than Shanghai (is that still where you are), so our perceptions differ, and in that case it’s unfair for me to say that without qualifying it with the prefix “where I live in China…”

            The Jap comment was only meant sarcastically, I would never actually him that

          • Kai

            No, Mateusz’s comment doesn’t have merit. Kamikazi is replying to a specific comment. Mateusz claims the “laowai” in the above translated article was used as a racist slur. There is no merit in that. He has to prove that there was an intention by the reporter to be racist and derogatory. He hasn’t. He simply asserts that the term itself is a “racist slur”, which is something you have proactively acknwoledged as not true.

            Mateusz may have valid reasons to be upset with the term but his specific comment does not have merit. We have to be clear about this in order to be fair.

            If in the west undesirable, yet unintentionally offensive terms like ‘Oriental’ and ‘coloured’ are to be outlawed, I’m surprised you’re making excuses for Chinese political incorrectness.

            I never argued that racist slurs should be outlawed. I am also not making excuses for Chinese political incorrectness. I am however making a point about intent and conventions influencing whether or not people should interpret the mere use of a term as offensive.

            For the record, I never make excuses for Chinese political incorrectness. I have explained to others why certain things WE consider politically incorrect aren’t for them. That is not making excuses; that is about understanding why something happens before we consider how we can influence change.

            I agree it’s not meant offensively, but it still is seen that way by many because it’s ignorant, and shows that the reporter does not care about referring to non-Chinese/westerners, whatever by anything more that what is skin deep.

            I think you are reading too much into it. The reporter may be using the term because of his/her own personal conventions, not because of ignorance or any conscious intent to refer to anyone by only their skin. The only “ignorance” the reporter is guilty of is not knowing that some members of his/her audience may find the term politically incorrect. It would only be “ignorant” in a racist way if there was malicious intent to denigrate and not just describe.

            Imagine an article describing that a black person fainted. Would it be a proportional response for a black person to claim that usage of “black” was a “racist slur?” No, because we can evaluate the context and we know it was used as a descriptor and not with any malicious denigration. If we have an issue with how OTHERS are uttering “black” that suggests malicious denigration, our complaints about THEM would have merit, but his comment about the article here has no merit at all.

            Are you saying that the majority of Chinese are caring and compassionate, and welcome foreigners with open arms?

            Disagreeing with your unfair generalizations that “The Chinese point of view is that they don’t care about others and look down on anyone foreign” is not the same as saying “the majority of Chinese are caring and compassionate, and welcome foreigners with open arms”. Disagreeing with one statement doesn’t automatically imply belief in the opposite statement. Come on, dude, you shouldn’t be making these errors in logic. You are being incredibly unfair in making such arguments.

            Certainly, it does happen, and perhaps I’m jaded by my location: Henan is a far more xenophobic and ignorant a place than Shanghai (is that still where you are), so our perceptions differ, and in that case it’s unfair for me to say that without qualifying it with the prefix “where I live in China…”

            That may help a bit and overall, I think you just need to catch yourself before you make generalizations that go too far. You need to try reading what you say from another perspective, even a Chinese perspective. It’s all about putting yourself in another person’s shoes. You are fully capable of being critical of certain phenomenon without painting yourself into an indefensible corner. No one has ever been faulted for being careful with their speech.

      • Mateusz82

        *sigh* Another China apologist. While I’m flattered you remember me, I would appreciate you to pay attention to what’s going on. A “victim mentality” is a mindset of being a victim to such a degree that oppression is searched for, and found where it doesn’t exist. It is not calling out racism where racism is blatantly obvious, like a news source using racial slurs.

        The China point of view is “Us” vs. “Them”, with “Us” being Han Chinese, the master race, and “Them” being everyone else, the untermenschen.

        Sad that some rush to China’s defense, making excuses for racism.

        • KamikaziPilot

          Anyone who’s follow my posts for any length of time knows I’m not even close to a China apologist. I’d be the first to tell you I’d never live in China, mainly because of the social conditions, not the least of which would be racism directed at me personally. Well your definition of “victim mentality” is exactly what I think you’re displaying although you don’t recognize it.

          The same can be said of any type of asians in the West, in fact I think racism towards asians in the west is far worse than racism towards “laowai”/whites in China but I guess it’s useless to argue because everyone just seems to see what they want to see. If it makes you feel better I’m pretty sure I’d be treated far worse if I lived in China than you are.

          • Mateusz82

            Well, I’m not one to really stalk through posts, but I’ll take your word for it that you previously said you don’t want to live in China, though racism? You seriously think you’d be subject to a small fraction of the discrimination that we deal with? Considering you don’t even listen when we point it out, it is highly doubtful you even understand what discrimination actually goes on. However, you don’t let that stop you from talking down to us, trying to keep us in our place when we get too uppity.

            Really? There are no civil rights organizations in the West? I remember several, actually. How many exist in China? Also, you insist on a blood and soil mentality, where your race is “Asian”, while referring to whites as “laowai”, or just their skin color. You hold that because of your race, you somehow hold a connection to Asia that people of other races don’t. That ethnic nationalism is the mentality that leads to the discrimination we are bringing up (the same you refuse to see). Like you, Chinese assume that yellow = Asian, and anyone not yellow isn’t really able to be Asian, even if they were born in Asia, or have Asian ancestry stretching back hundreds of years. Asia is a continent stretching as far west as Israel, and north as Russia, yet only belongs to one race. And yes, I do have some Asian ancestry (Western Asian), as well as European ancestry, yet I don’t call myself “European”, or assume that I somehow am more worthy to live in European countries than someone of another color.

            That statement does make me feel better, since it makes it clear that your issues stem from deluded victim mentality (as you are sure you’d be so persecuted, like you assume you are now), without anything to back it up.

          • KamikaziPilot

            I’m pretty sure I’d deal with more racism/discrimination than you deal with, and most of it negative. I never denied your experiences but I just think your perspective is warped to fit your agenda. Again with the victim mentality, assuming I’m talking down to you. Even if I am, I’m not even Chinese so your point would be moot.

            Why do you think civil rights organizations exist in the West? It’s because of incidents like Vincent Chin, whose white murderers received a few days of house confinement as “punishment”. Also does China have hate groups like the KKK, or Neo-Nazis or thousands of other hate groups that exist in the West? And I’m not talking about Chinese nationalist groups. Your “blood and soil” argument is about semantics and borderline ridiculous, so it’s a waste of time to argue. BTW I also have European and African and Pacific Islanders ancestry if you go back far enough, but I don’t go around claiming I belong to any group. I’m also against nationalism of any kind, as I think it draws insecure people who try to compensate for their personal shortcomings.

            I have plenty of personal experience to back up what I said, but no use listing anecdotal evidence as you’ll just list some of your own. Every one of your posts I can remember has the same theme, do you ever talk about anything else? Seems like we’re at an impasse here with you believing Chinese (or whatever you call them) people extremely racist towards whites (or whatever you want to call them) while I believe Western countries are extremely racist towards anyone of East Asian ancestry. I’ll just leave it at that.

          • Mateusz82

            That’s the issue. You are so certain, because you identify as victim. You like the title so much that you can’t bear the thought that someone else, not of your group, may be discriminated against. When shown evidence, you get upset and insult the person presenting it. No, my point is not moot, since your not being Chinese has nothing to do with any of it. In accusing me of “victim mentality”, because I point out racism, you are denying my experiences. However, you won’t see that, because you can’t accept someone else being discriminated against. It doesn’t fit what you want to believe.

            They exist because the general public doesn’t tolerate racism, and want to see it ended. They don’t exist in China because the government would never allow it, and because the general sentiment is like yours, that people who are of the wrong race aren’t really Chinese anyhow, and don’t belong in China. China doesn’t need underground hate groups, since it’s practiced openly, like when white and black people are beaten, while the police look the other way, or when the cops murder Uyghur protesters, or when advertisements state “no blacks”, or when a major brand of toothpaste is called “Darlie” and uses the image of a minstrel show for advertising. It is the school play where Han kids dress up like “foreigners” to ridicule them. China doesn’t have formal hate groups popping up for the same reason Nazi Germany didn’t have KKK groups. When something is so much a part of the culture, like racism in China, there is no need for hate groups. If you are against nationalism, then stop being nationalist. Simple as that. If you fail to understand what “nationalism” and “ethnic nationalism” means, I can explain. You could easily look up “blood and soil” too, if you like.

            But that’s the thing. If you were to talk about your experiences of discrimination, would you be accused of victim mentality, or told to get over it, or would you expect people to be sympathetic and listen? See, that’s a false dichotomy. I’m talking about race, not nationality (you keep mixing them up… which is part of ethnic nationalism). I would rather live as a yellow non-Chinese than a white non-Chinese, and if I were to live as a local Chinese, I would rather live as a yellow Chinese, than a white Chinese. If you were to live in China for the next five years, which color would you think would be the most beneficial for you?

          • KamikaziPilot

            Since you’re now using straw arguments (saying I’m denying your experiences, when I clearly stated I didn’t) and also heavily arguing semantics, I see no need to continue this discussion. I guess we’re all oppressed, discriminated against, ostracized, we’re all slaves in some way or another, no matter what society you live in, just depends on our perspective. I just refuse to use that as a crutch in day to day life like you seem to do. So yes, you are oppressed and the victim of racism, but so am I and so are the other 7 billion people on this planet.

          • Kai

            In accusing me of “victim mentality”, because I point out racism, you are denying my experiences.

            You presupposed the existence of racism and thus you pointing out racism again. You need to first prove the existence of racism in the uses of “laowai” in the article above and in a majority of uses of the word before you can declare it to be a racist slur. You haven’t done that. You have presupposed it. Your conclusion is faulty because your premise is faulty. This is Logic 101.

            KamikaziPilot is not denying you your “experiences”, he is denying the validity of your interpretations and conclusions.

            It doesn’t fit what you want to believe.

            Dude, you are refusing to see the completely neutral and non-pejorative uses of “laowai” in the vast majority of situations because “it doesn’t fit what you want to believe.”

            or when a major brand of toothpaste is called “Darlie” and uses the image of a minstrel show for advertising.

            You should learn more about the brand. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie

            It was a brand started by foreigners and is currently owned by the American Colgate-Palmolive conglomerate. The brand is a a major brand in multiple Asian countries outside of China, Darlie is not a slam-dunk example of specifically “Chinese” racism given these facts.

            But that’s the thing. If you were to talk about your experiences of discrimination, would you be accused of victim mentality, or told to get over it, or would you expect people to be sympathetic and listen?

            You were accused of victim mentality for incorrectly declaring the use of “laowai” in the article above as a “racist slur”, not because you were talking about your experiences of discrimination. You are not getting sympathy because you did not present a compelling case of victimization. Again, it was not a compelling case of victimization because you ignored the etymology of the word and the entirely neutral contextual use of the word in the article above in declaring it a “racist slur”. You literally declared something to be a slur because you say so. You should not expect sympathy for such a gross violation of logic.

        • Kai

          Yes, that’s what “victim mentality” is and this is the right example of searching for oppression and finding it where it doesn’t exist:

          Constant use of “laowai” slur throughout… *sigh* racist Chinese media is racist.

          The article and the Chinese media (reporter) responsible for it wasn’t being racist or using “laowai” as a slur. You merely interpret the word as necessarily being a slur. That’s searching for oppression and finding it where it doesn’t exist.

          It is not calling out racism where racism is blatantly obvious, like a news source using racial slurs.

          This is what is called a “circular argument”. You called something racist by presuming it is racist.

          @KamikaziPilot:disqus has a solid comment history of being critical of China and not blindly defending China. You have more comment history justifying his accusation of you being another foreigner with a victimization mentality than he has history justifying your accusation of him being a China apologist.

          He is not defending China, he is not making excuses for racism, he is criticizing the logic and validity of your comment.

          • Mateusz82

            No, oppression does exist here. Victim mentality is when see yourself as a victim simply because you identify as one. I’m pointing out a news story using a slur. That’s pretty blatant. Simply refusing to see it doesn’t make the evidence go away.

            No, I don’t (though, I’m flattered that you too find me interesting enough to stalk through my comments). I point out racism where it exists. Victim mentality is more like KamikazePilot’s claim that he’s so oppressed everywhere, without backing it up, but because he wants to think of himself as the victim, and is pissed off that someone else has the nerve to muscle in on his game. He’s the only one (or his ethnicity is the only one) that can be the victim.

            Well, he tried to criticize, but didn’t manage to do so other than to state that I just have to accept racism in China.

          • Kai

            No, oppression does exist here. Victim mentality is when see yourself as a victim simply because you identify as one. I’m pointing out a news story using a slur. That’s pretty blatant. Simply refusing to see it doesn’t make the evidence go away.

            No, you are disregarding the actual definition and contextual usage of a term, declaring it to be a slur, and then taking offense. You are creating your own oppression.

            You are literally seeing yourself as a victim simply because your identify as one. You are also simply refusing to see the evidence that challenges your self-prescribed victimhood.

            No, I don’t (though, I’m flattered that you too find me interesting enough to stalk through my comments).

            Which would mean you stalked through Kamikazi’s comments? Otherwise, what basis would you have for concluding he’s a “China apologist”?

            I point out racism where it exists.

            You’re refusing to entertain the possibility that you are creating racism where it doesn’t exist, specifically in the article above and in the vast majority of situations where “laowai” is used as a neutral identifier instead of a pejorative slur.

            Victim mentality is more like KamikazePilot’s claim that he’s so oppressed everywhere, without backing it up, but because he wants to think of himself as the victim, and is pissed off that someone else has the nerve to muscle in on his game. He’s the only one (or his ethnicity is the only one) that can be the victim.

            You just completley straw-manned Kamikazi as somene who is disagreeing with you because he only wants his own ethnicity to be the victim of racism. There is absolutely nothing he has said to suggest that. It was completely projected onto him by you. You are misrepresenting others and arguing against straw men.

            Well, he tried to criticize, but didn’t manage to do so other than to state that I just have to accept racism in China.

            No, he criticize, and you have chosen to ignore his criticism and instead misrepresent them with bullshit. Your dishonesty is mind-boggling.

        • Probotector

          “A “victim mentality” is a mindset of being a victim to such a degree that oppression is searched for, and found where it doesn’t exist. It is not calling out racism where racism is blatantly obvious”

          Yeah, I’ll agree with that. It;s just he probably finds complaining to be ‘tiresome’, but if the issue of laowai is never dealt with, and only brushed aside, the problem still festers.

    • Probotector

      I just realised this. In relation to your point, notice how the term ‘laowai’ is only used when the story is negative. They’ll give the nationality and the name when it’s ‘foreign behaviour’ they like.

      http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/british-man-helps-chinese-homeless-in-xian-netizen-reactions.html

  • Chan

    People keep saying Hong Kong is similar to Shanghai, here is why Hong Kong and Shanghai are 2 DIFFERENT WORLDS.

    Our people here in HK will help you, Shanghai will just leave…

  • David Fieldman

    Apeface. At least I don’t hide behind my Planet of the Apes costume.

  • Probotector

    Try reading my comment again.

  • looking for the stars

    F.A.O “Teacher in China’ by any chance could you share that website, would love to be entertained for a hour. As well as being highly curious.

  • Fumanchu

    did they all run off fearing they would get the blame and be sued for trillions by the foreigner once he woke up.

  • Probotector

    It’s not a term of affection, that’s propaganda and double talk. Why would the Chinese care to refer to us affectionately?

    Don’t bring up Japan, it’s not relevant.

    We don’t think Chinese culture should change for us, we just don’ want to be referred to in a racially divisive way, or are you saying racism is part of your culture?

    As many have mentioned already, referring to someone by their racial status dehumanises them and relegates them to the status of a mere outsider. Why do you guys have to bring up foreignness at all?

    Don’t try to portray the British as more racist than yourselves, there really is no comparison.

    • Kai

      He said “lao” is a term of affection, and as a prefix, it often is. That said, “laowai” is not a term of affection. It is simply an informal, colloquial way to refer to foreigners.

      Like “gaijin”.

      Japan is directly relevant. “Gaijin” is the Japanese equivalent of “laowai” and the history and debate over that term is enormously applicable to “laowai”. How could you possibly declare it irrelevant?

      or are you saying racism is part of your culture?

      You really need to stop making dumbass remarks like this. Every time you do this, you are dishonestly strawmanning the other person. He never said anything to suggest that “racism” is part of his culture. You don’t even know what nationality or race Guest is and merely assume he’s Chinese because he doesn’t completely agree with you.

      Wanting to discourage Chinese from using a term you consider othering and “racially divisive” should not be elevated to you thinking Chinese culture should change for you. That’s what you should be arguing, not throwing strawman accusations back at him. All cultures have changed for others. There’s nothing inherently wrong with wanting to influence others as long as the desired change and the efforts and arguments to influence that change are fair and reasonable.

      Discouraging usage of the term “laowai” (like “gaijin”) because it results in unnecessary offense that can easily be avoided with perfectly adequate and more politically-correct substitutes is REASONABLE.

      Declaring “laowaI” to be a “racist slur” because one says so regardless of all other facts is NOT REASONABLE.

      Are you starting to see the difference?

      As many have mentioned already, referring to someone by their racial status dehumanises them and relegates them to the status of a mere outsider. Why do you guys have to bring up foreignness at all?

      Why is referring to someone’s race inherently “dehumanizing” at all? It isn’t or at least it isn’t necessarily. You’d have to use a really nasty tone when referring to someone’s race to make it “dehumanizing”.

      We can also argue that the word “tourist” also relegates someone to “the status of a mere outsider”. Is that word “dehumanizing”? It only is if you choose to interpret it so, especially when the word has no inherent mening of “dehumanization” and the person using it has no intent of “dehumanizing” you. There is such a thing as offense all being in your head. There is such a thing as overreacting.

      Being offended when someone calling you “laowai” in a pejorative way is NOT overreacting.

      Being offended when someone uses “laowai” as a colloquial identifier for a person IS overreacting.

      Again, do you see the difference?

      Don’t try to portray the British as more racist than yourselves, there really is no comparison.

      He didn’t try to do that. He conceded that “gweilo” was arguably pejorative and suggested it came into being due to British imperialism and colonialism. That’s actually false, the term’s origins in Cantonese predate British rule of Hong Kong, but there is some merit to its popularity of use by resentful HKers throughout British rule.

      I think you saw him mention British and flew off your handle thinking he was trying to do something his words actually do not suggest him doing. You jump to conclusions too rashly.

      • wnsk

        So what is the formal term for a foreigner? “Wai guo ren”?

        I think laowai is certainly more endearing and in fact, more affectionate, than “wai guo ren.”

        • Kai

          Yes, “waiguoren”. “Laowai” by virtue of being more colloquial CAN be more “endearing” and “affectionate” but that’s more an issue of tone and specific usage than its inherent meaning, just like how tone and specific usage can change it to being pejorative.

  • Fumanchu

    not informed about what , which std’s (or are you just lumping them all in together ) and to which african countries ?

  • Apothis

    The Chinese culture reminds me of a teenager……still hasn’t grown up yet.

    • Your comment brought back memories.
      There were some folks in the US military who used that reference when I was active duty and probably still do today.
      They compared China to a little boy who would grow up to be a powerful man and the best time to defeat him was now.

      • Alex Dương

        Isn’t that just a more patronizing take on something Napoleon said?

        • Probotector

          A sleeping giant? Back then? Well all the major imperialist powers proved him wrong.

          • Alex Dương

            How so?

          • Probotector

            Because a few decades later, they pressed their imperialist exploitation on China for over 100 years with no effective resistance until Mao and the CCP came along.

          • Alex Dương

            And does that contradict Napoleon or is it entirely consistent with what he said?

          • Probotector

            No, because the fact that they couldn’t stand up to Imperialism showed China to be weak, at least when being managed by the Qing court, then by whatever warlord faction was in place after that, and then under the Guomindang. It was only because of imperialism (especially that of Japan), the hardship that it brought, and the failure of the other governments, that Chin’s destiny led to the rise of Mao and Communism, which was the true giant that has kept the stability ever since, at least, stability from conquest.

          • Alex Dương

            What comes to mind when you see the words “sleeping giant”? Is a giant supposed to represent strength and not weakness? Yes. But when a giant is sleeping, presumably you could get away with doing things that you otherwise could not were it awake.

            Like, say, imperialism.

          • Probotector

            Dude. That’s an interesting interpretation, but:

            Bonaparte said “China is a sleeping giant, let her sleep for when she awakes she will move the world.”

            The British Empire did not let China sleep, they (we) attacked her, and had dominance and control there in certain areas colonially for about 100 years (1839, First Opium War, to 1941, Japanese conquest of Hong Kong, where were were truly kicked out of China). There were numerous other nations that also had the same idea in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. You know the history. China put up no effective resistance, although there were attempts of course. China’s awakening only came decades later (with the Communist Revolution in 1949) after prolonged humiliation, abuse and struggle for the people’s very survival. After that, they were powerful… a ‘giant’ and hasn’t let anyone fuck with them since.

          • Alex Dương

            I interpret that quote as a warning: you can have your “fun” now, but it’ll come back to bite you later. Thus, Napoleon was simply cautioning against any imperialism in the first place.

            The British did not heed that warning, and I’d say they did pay for it. They developed Hong Kong, Kowloon, and the New Territories at their expense and had to give all of it back upon the expiration of the NT lease after China “woke up.”

          • vincent_t

            As far as I seen, China is waking up, but not fully awaken yet. Not before they start modernizing their political system and social structure. Imagine what a country of 1.3 billion people, having a culture like Taiwan, if not better can do?

          • vincent_t

            Nah, that was the time China was in deep sleep. If you check the history of China, that 100 years is 1 of most chaotic and weakest period. I would say Napoleon’s metaphor would be more obvious after 20 years than now. Hopefully China will not practice expansionist policy when she awakes.

          • Kai

            Napoleon’s metaphor of a “sleeping giant” was commenting about China’s potential. He believed China could “move the world” if it “woke up” (got its act together, decided it wanted to, etc.). He wasn’t talking about China’s strength at the time, but about what he felt was its potential.

        • Thanks for the link to the quote. You reminded me to go to the library and check out a biography on Napoleon.

          • Alex Dương

            Haha, no problem. I hope the biography is a good read.

        • Nick in Beijing

          Funny that for China to wake up it took political, financial, and military support from the same western colonial powers that China so resents. If it weren’t for the massive support given to China by the international community, then China absolutely would not be where it is today. In fact, if China hadn’t opened up to outside help and influence it probably would have collapsed under it’s own retard weight. .

          Sleeping giant? Pff. yes, the giant kid in the school yard who threatens you for your milk money, then cries about telling his dad when someone bloodies his nose (in accordance with international norms of course).

          • Alex Dương

            Funny that for China to wake up it took political, financial, and military support from the same western colonial powers that China so resents.

            So when did China “wake up” according to you? And what kind of “political, financial, and military support” did the U.K. and France give China?

      • Rick in China

        I think the only way nuclear superpowers could effectively ‘defeat’ each other now, is by allowing them to defeat themselves — through too much hubris or too much aggression, turning the world against them. Russia seems to be on that path now..

        • You are so right. Pride is often a reason for many bad decisions. Emotional decisions are often the worst.
          Which path (Russia’s) are your referring to?

          • Rick in China

            Mostly the going ons in Ukraine.. gov’t officials taunting Obama with silly tweets and such doesn’t help.

      • Mainlander

        Not really. Low birth rates and a rapidly aging population. No threat there. Maybe at one time.

  • Vernon Alarcon Jr.

    If I had latex gloves and a medical mask, I could offer limited assistance. Otherwise, no thanks. Your well-being and life is not that important to me!

  • King Kong

    With all the virus out breaks reported in Asia and around the world I would also run if i saw a person just faint..you never know what they suffering from and why should you risk your life for a stranger?

Personals @ chinaSMACK - Meet people, make friends, find lovers? Don't be so serious!»