Hong Kong Activists Surround Last British Governor, Reactions

Patten's car is surrounded.

From NetEase:

The Last Governor of Hong Kong Governor Surrounded by Crowd Holding Colonial Flags During Visit to Hong Kong

2014 March 20, China Hong Kong, Chris Patten, the last Governor of Hong Kong and current Chancellor of Oxford University attended an event co-hosted by Oxford University and the Hong Kong Maritime Museum. While entering the venue, Patten and a dozen or so Hong Kong citizens were surrounded by “Hong Kong People First” members.

A sign put on Patten's car.

These people were holding British national flags and the colonial flag of Hong Kong, as well as playing the British national anthem on their mobile phones, expressing their desire that Hong Kong return to under Britain’s rule.

Patten is facing the crowd.

Patten only shook hands with them, did not respond to their questions, and left under the escort of security guards and the police. When asked by a reporter whether someone who opposes [the Chinese] central government could be elected Chief Executive, Patten expressed refusal to play the role of a football/soccer commentator, commenting on all the affairs of Hong Kong, stressing that his views on Basic Law, “One Country, Two Systems“, Hong Kong Self-Rule, and Liberal Democracy hadn’t changed, and will never change.

Comments from NetEase:

网易河南省郑州市手机网友 ip:61.52.*.*:

Return to Britain? No problem. The people can leave, but Hong Kong stays.

网易黑龙江省哈尔滨市手机网友 ip:113.0.*.*:

Hong Kongers are being a little out of line. Enough is enough. You have already been given a lot of freedom [compared to mainland]…

自由光明 [网易广东省深圳市网友]: (responding to above)

Can something given be called freedom at all? Is this how freedom is defined?

网易江苏省宿迁市手机网友 ip:58.241.*.*: (responding to above)

If you don’t want to stay in China, get the fuck out. Stop bitching about, grass mud horse. How does China have a stupid cunt like you? Grass mud horse. I hope you die.

自由光明 [网易广东省深圳市网友]: (responding to above)

Is China yours? Who the fuck are you? So many people are clamoring for freedom on your behalf and yet you just want to be a dog??

网易法国手机网友 ip:176.179.*.*:

Is it that noble being a colony of Britain?

网易山东省青岛市手机网友 ip:112.224.*.*: (responding to above)

In your opinion, who are more happy? The people of North Korea? Or the people living in the commonwealth countries of Britain such as Canada, Australia, etc.? Why would they do this? Shouldn’t the Heavenly Kingdom self-reflect?

goodboyjz [网易新疆伊犁州伊宁市网友]:

I sympathize with the people of Hong Kong have my sympathy who have an understanding of their current situation after going through the governance of two countries, but Hong Kong is our country’s inherent territory. The return of Hong Kong also proves that it is an inseparable part of China, so you can leave, but Hong Kong must stay. If I must make a verdict, I just want to say: ”Take me with you.”

网易河北省唐山市网友 ip:120.4.*.*:

This is public opinion/will. A just cause has many helpers while an unjust one finds few followers.

网易河北省唐山市手机网友 ip:110.231.*.*:

They are all scumbags.

网易河北省保定市网友 ip:27.187.*.*:

So weird. When the UK ruled over Hong Kong, Hong Kongers had neither freedom nor democracy and even the Governor of Hong Kong was appointed directly by Britain… He he he.

要有爱要和谐 [网易北京市网友]: (responding to above)

Putin: Please respect the choice of the people of Crimea!!!

Comments from Sina:

我最深的爱恋 [广东深圳]:

Those who don’t like it can emigrate into Britain. The land of Hong Kong belongs to our China.

顾建平 [北京]:

Them doing this is a bit low/contemptible.

xoxoxoxxooo [江苏苏州]:

I feel these people are so low/contemptible. You have them be free and they’d rather be slaves.

Leonhart [北京]:

If you think [Britain] is good, then just emigrate! Talk about low/contemptible.

刘芳菲 [北京]:

Slave nature?

不想堵车的美人鱼 [辽宁沈阳]:

Instead of being masters, they insist on being other people’s slaves.

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  • Rick in China

    Wow, this dude beat me to it! “Can something given be called freedom at all? Is this how freedom is defined?” ON THE BALL SON.

    I was already cmd-c’in, and buddy made me cmd-c again :D

    That being said, the phraseology is wrong – it’s not what has been given, but what should have been said was, “Hey! Mainland hasn’t taken ALL of HK freedom away yet! They still have some…”

    • Kay

      I think this comment is responding to the comment above it: that hk has already been “given” enough freedom, at least more than the mainland. And this saying really beats me to it too, but I’ll say that it simply points out the nature of freedom: freedom should never be given to anyone but rather it should be born with us, and if it’s given it should only be given by God, not by anyone else. Begging for another master, another ruler to give more freedom to the hk people is not the right way to go. Although I hate to see the history overthrown, I’ll say: fight for independence, fight for a pure democracy that you want, that’s a battle worth fighting; don’t do all of this just for another ruler, no matter how great he is. That’s just pathetic.

  • PRC citizens who cheered on the Crimean referendum should surely support the same for Hong Kong…

    • Irvin

      Unique? It’s was a british colonly, you know how many colonly british had?

      • There are a lot of countries. Therefore, no country is unique, and no country is worth preserving.

        • Vox-Populi

          ” Therefore, no country is unique”

          Heard of culture before?

          “and no country is worth preserving”

          Well, we should nuke every country then.

          • I’m afraid you need to replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector.

    • wnsk

      What would be the point?

      Do you truly believe that the majority (or even a significantly large percentage) of Hongkongers want self-rule or British rule over Chinese rule? And does Britain even want Hongkong?

      • I don’t know, but I’m inclined to believe it’s a reasonable possibility. Britain surely hasn’t even contemplated the idea, but I’m inclined to believed there’s a reasonable possibility they wouldn’t turn such an offer down. Besides, I don’t really think this is as much about Britain as it is about Hong Kong being governed as a full-fledged democracy that fully respects the civil rights and preferred way of life of its citizens. Hong Kong has been allowed, as promised, a high degree of autonomy since the handover, but Hong Kongers are justified in wondering whether things might significantly regress once the “One Country, Two Systems” principle expires in 2047.

        • Vox-Populi

          I am hoping that China will democratize before 2047. Things might go better that way.

        • steviewah

          Oh, I’m sure they’ve contemplated the idea. Maybe not publicly, but internally, I’m sure they have. Up to the 1997 handover of HK, Britain was begging China to extend the lease of HK for another I think 50 years (not sure the actual length, memory eludes me!). Plus the only reason Britain introduced more liberty to HK was to give China one final middle finger before the handover. They knew they couldn’t hang on the HK anymore, so they begun drafting laws to give HKers more rights leading up to their final years of rule. So that is one of the main reasons why I shudder when I see HKers waving the colonial flags, Britain didn’t give liberty to HKers because of British benevolence, it was out of spite.

          • Probotector

            One can grant liberty out of spite? How dastardly cruel!

    • Vox-Populi

      Compare the culture of Guandong, China with Hong Kong. They are largely similar in many ways, much like Taiwan and Fujian, China.

      • Well, I happen to think China should be like the EU, so…

        • Vox-Populi

          That means China should join with Japan, Mongolia, Koreas (North and South), Vietnam then?

          • No, I mean nations should roughly exist on the basis of language, meaning Guangdong and Fujian would be like France and Italy.

          • Vox-Populi

            Interesting idea actually.. I think EU is comprised of countries whose cultures are largely similar to one another though..

          • Well…the Europeans certainly don’t see it that way.

            There’s quite a bit of difference amongst them. Until just a few decades ago, they were pretty much comparable to how Eastern Asia is today.

            Here are some examples of their differences in culture:
            .

  • ptptp

    Why does Hong Kong belong more to people who live thousands of miles away than to those who live there?

    • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

      It doesn’t. The people just identify more with the ones that live thousands of miles away.

      Which I have trouble wrapping my head around since I can’t recall a single Hong Konger ever poppin’ down to the pub for a pint.

      • Wave_R1der

        It’s funny, considering that they speak Mandarin and follow many Chinese culture and its customs, yet they still identify themselves as British.

        Some people in Britain may be flattered by it, but maybe there are more who would think “Bah, bunch of British wannabes. Go back to China you Chinks”.

    • Indeed, Hong Kong belongs to those who live there––the Hong Kongers. And the Hong Kongers have voiced a desire to be governed by the likes of Chris Patten (who also lives there). The Beijing regime does not live there.

      • Irvin

        Except HK isn’t govern by beijing, it’s govern by the person they themselves voted into office.

        • FYIADragoon

          Choices for the elections are managed by the men in Beijing. Is that really getting to vote for who you want?

        • hailexiao

          They = electoral college consisting of business oligarchs who owe more to mainland ties than to the domestic HK economy.

      • wnsk

        Is all Hong Kong up in arms? Or is it just a small group of activists?

        Singaporeans are never made to forget that when the Japanese invaded our island, the British just upped and fled. It’s why we wanted the British out, after the war.

        • Yes, but you have the luxury of being an independent country. Many Chinese-Malaysians are extremely dissatisfied with the Malaysian government. It’s not unlikely that if Singapore were forcefully reintegrated back into Malaysia, some Singaporeans might oppose this.

        • hailexiao

          By ‘upped and fled’ you mean surrendered and kept in hellhole POW camps/forced to labor in conquered territories?

        • Can’t remember my username

          “the British just upped and fled. It’s why we wanted the British out, after the war.”

          Well apart from the 5,000 primarily British, Indian, and Australian soldiers killed or wounded and the 80,000 taken prisoner (with many dying in captivity) and the sinking of the battleship HMS Prince of Wales and battlecruiser Repulse that were sent to join the battle, I suppose you could say ‘the British just upped and fled’.

          • wnsk

            …Okay I take that back. That was unfair.

            But I think you know the point I’m trying to make. Chinese soldiers would feel more motivated to fight (and die) for Chinese soil than British soldiers would. It’s only natural.

          • Can’t remember my username

            No worries.. But that’s an interesting point you raise. One would think so, but it comes back to things like leadership, morale, training, situation and cause, although cause can be tricky, it certainly doesn’t have to be ideological and it could be something as basic as fighting for those alongside.

            In China’s case,for example, there was a marked difference between the PLA achievements in the Korean War compared to Vietnam in 1979 and the KMT abandonment of Nanjing compared to the KMT’s determined defence of Shanghai and Chongqing in WWII.

            The British defence at Arnhem and Kohima, for example, would suggest that the British can be motivated to fight against overwhelming odds and die anywhere. The Germans and Russians during WWII could both also provide excellent examples.

    • Vox-Populi

      Probably the “white people are the nicest and the best” syndrome. That thinking is kinda big around asia.

      • Kay

        That’s sad. I am from mainland and personally I admit that I see white people as superior, and that has caused tremendous suffer to myself as a international student here. I don’t know where and when this idea/bias crept in, but certainly it’s held by many asians, not to mention certain HK people like the ones we see in this news. I only speak English when I visit HK, don’t know if I’m ashamed or afraid. This is just my personal case though.

        • mr.wiener

          In the west people have a culture that puts more emphasis on confidence in self than as a collective. I have little doubt you are the equal, if not better than many white people.

  • don mario

    so many hurt national feelings from chinese netizens!

    • Irvin

      can you blame them?

  • The FRED FONG

    White men throughout Asia….are respected for good reason (unless they are an English teacher)

    • Marcus Black

      You consider dealing drugs and then proceeding to ransacking a palace after you get caught a “good” reason to be respected?

      • Irvin

        Maybe people hated that palace and love drugs? lol

      • hailexiao

        Given how the Qing Empire treated its own subjects, “dealing drugs and proceeding to ransacking [sic] a palace” isn’t all that bad. It also got a lot better over the next century.

    • mr.wiener

      ……..or FILTH.

  • Marcus Black

    Given the means by which Britain obtained Hong Kong (Drug dealing and bitch slapping China), I think you Hong Kongers should just shut the f*ck up and drink some tea. Now I myself love Britain but I find it strange that you yearn for British rule even though they not only sold drugs to your people but also decided to bitch slap your leaders when they got caught doing it. To add insult to injury they also ransacked your sacred palace. Do you have no racial / ethical pride? I would understand having close ties with Britain but going back to British rule is kind of an insult to your ethnicity.

    Doesn’t matter how much you hate China, at least it’s Chinese ruling Chinese instead of foreigners ruling Chinese. Besides China isn’t as bad as people make it to be. In fact I found China to be more “free” than Britain. At least in China I can point my long range laser pointer at tall buildings without the f*cking police confiscating it even though I wasn’t pointing it in the air at planes or on drivers. It’s a damn nanny state here. Rarely did I see the police in Shanghai (except for the metro) which when compared to London where you have police in damn near every corner. You start to question what “freedom” really is and whether such a thing even exists. To end on a good note, shut the f*ck up about the lack of “freedom” in China and get out if you don’t like it. (For Americans) Why don’t you first fix the problem that is your police shooting a guy in the back and killing him for f*cking camping on a hilltop. It is…………….ehmmm………….what it is. hahahhaa.

    • Yes, what the world truly needs is more racialism and ethnocentrism.

      I suppose you think white Americans should rather be governed by anyone so long as he’s white rather than Obama, because it’s not about the quality of governance, but rather the race or ethnicity of the governor that truly matters.

      This isn’t about how Britain obtained Hong Kong. The past is history. It’s about what’s better for Hong Kong now and in the future. I’m sure Hong Kongers would be perfectly content with governing themselves like Singapore, but that’s obviously not an option and neither is transference to Britain. This is ultimately about the principals and values by which Hong Kong is governed. No need to make this so damn personal and vindictive.

      • wnsk

        Ironic then, that Singapore would do anything to be in HK’s position (i.e. be backed by a large and powerful country like China.) From the beginning, Singapore did not want to be separate from Malaysia. It was ousted. Self-rule was thrust upon them.

        So I say, the Hongkongers are lucky, and should learn to make use of this great advantage rather than make senseless and useless lamentations.

        • I’m not so sure Singapore would be so eager to hand their autonomy over to the PRC. After all, nothing is stopping Singapore from formally requesting China to annex it. Neither is anything stopping Singaporeans from starting a grassroots movement to request annexation by China (or Malaysia for that matter, which would probably gladly take it back).

          Lots of Singaporeans have expressed great discontent with the influx of mainland immigrants. I’m not so sure Singaporeans would want to be swallowed up by the PRC.

          • wnsk

            No, I’m just using China as an example. China has no claim over us. It’s just that Singapore is deeply conscious of its own vulnerability, and is always insecure; Singapore would be envious of Hongkong’s position (even though the average Singaporean would not consciously admit it.)

          • hailexiao

            On the other hand, Hong Kong might be envious of Singapore’s position: a sovereign country with control over its own foreign policy, a leadership only answerable to its own people, and an economy less dominated by rent-seeking oligarchs.

          • Alex Dương

            That’s the thing, though; I don’t think Chinese netizen reactions would be so negative if these activists pushed for independence and a sovereign Hong Kong like Singapore.

          • China needn’t a claim over Singapore to annex it if Singaporeans truly wanted it. I guarantee you China would be more than happy to annex your island. I think you underestimate people’s appreciation for independence.

            All the dozens of micro states and tiny island nations would not exist if not for the support of their citizens in favor of independence.

          • wnsk

            I enjoy and value (our) independence, there’s just this nagging doubt inside me about whether it’s BEST for us (or Hongkong.) (Annexation of S’pore by China is not an option; too complicated for me to get into why.)

            Anyway, I just think these Hongkongers should put more thought into this. The feeling I get from them right now is that they are just rushing in with their emotions, and being short-sighted. Like what you mentioned below, being jittery about the expiry of the “1 country, 2 systems” thing — that’s still like 30+ years down the road.

    • Mateusz82

      Being given freedom by people of a different ethnicity, isn’t necessarily worse than being ruled by fear and brutality by people who look like you, though the PRC uses ethnic nationalism (appealing to racial pride) that would make the British National Party envious.

      Incidentally, by your own “logic”, you have no right to criticize living in Britain unless you are white.

      Either you’re an ignorant racist, or a troll.

      • Marcus Black

        I think my point pretty much flew over your head. You don’t have to be white to be British. Besides “white” is a vague term. I am sure you would feel the same way mainlanders feel if your country of origin was ruled by former drug dealers who don’t even have respect for you. I see now why some say slaves themselves play a vital part in perpetuating their own bondage. Once you get trapped in the slavish servitude mentality, it becomes had to break free. Freedom means different things to different people and it is practically compromised the moment governments are established. Government makes laws that’s most of the time in their interest and the interest of the wealthy. No point going in circles. It just is…. what it is.

        • Wololoo

          Have a look at the highest officials in China: all criminal billionaires who worship Mao (a child fucker and rapist).

          It is a fact, that European colonies are better off nowadays, than they would be without learning proper government principles. The chaos came, when the colony powers left the countries and (african) dictators came to power.

          • Vox-Populi

            When Europeans colonize a country, what you’ll get is slavery, all treasuries absorbed to the Colonists, racial discrimination and generally lack of personal freedoms.

            Saying that a colonized africa is better than the independant one would be a huge insult towards the africans.

          • Wololoo

            The white guilt is strong in you.
            I am a German with black parents and I am so happy being here and not from the shithole my ancestors come from.

          • I didn’t realize Chinese-Indonesians can harbor white guilt.

          • Vox-Populi

            Whoah, how did you know I am a Chinese Indonesian?

          • I work for the NSA.

          • Vox-Populi

            Stop spying me.. I did nothing wrong, I swear! ._.

          • Don’t worry, we spy on everyone. No need for alarm, sir.

          • Vox-Populi

            It’s a fact. Don’t you know what has the Belgian government done to DRC (Democratic Republic of Congo) before? In the name of profit?

          • Identitet14

            Did you know what the arab slave traders did to Congo just before King Leopol colonized it? Infact alot of history books I read will even compare time periods of the Congo population with 10 years before King Leopolds colonization and after it has been under King Leopolds rule for some time forgetting that in that time period of 10 years before King Leopolds colonization of Belgium the arab slave traders launched the largest expedition for catching slaves ever, leaving behind them wastelands of burned down villages and bodies. Don’t get me wrong King Leopolds rule of Congo was bad but it has been exaggerated and the Europe of his time was outraged and his rule of Congo because it was not a belgian colony but the kings colony was ended when the parliament intervened. Now I fail to see japanese colonization of Korea any better then european, infact I will be so blunt and say that europeans have never been more vicious then other races infact the opposite, just more capable and thus able to expand their empires. Remember that it was whites who ended slave trade(most of whom was NOT conducted by whites contradictory to anti white anti colonialist propaganda).

          • Wololoo

            It was the personal colony of the king, not the belgium government.
            I mainly referred to colonies of good countries like Germany or Great Britain, which on any colored map are outstanding.

            It is a fact, that especially the German law system is really good, so that countries like e.g. China or Japan even adopted it voluntary.

          • Dick Leigh

            Canada disagrees with you.

          • Zappa Frank

            as matter of the fact many African countries live worse than under colonial rules….

          • Rick in China

            Wololoo
            RE: “when the colony powers left the countries”

            This is true in many cases, and a lot of the dictatorships are horrible. However, some of the problems were caused *by* the method which the colonial nations governed. The most prominent example would be Rwanda I suppose. I’ve visited the genocide museum and listened to many stories, and think I have a *sort of* grasp of what happened and why.. however to sum it up really briefly: a false separation between branded individuals was created, with ectomorphic and mesomorphics who also had lighter skin typically being branded as ‘tutsi’ and endomorphic darker skinned individuals being branded as ‘hutu’. That’s the story they’re telling in Rwanda at least, I think western scholars sometimes disagree (they also have reason to give another history).

            The tutsi’s essentially were given favour, even though they were the minority by far, and the hutus were basically treated as 3rd class people with far less opportunity and far more oppression / lack of rights. The result is, when the belgians left, the hutus were like “ok fuck this shit” and rioted slaughtering all the tutsis they could.

            The belgian gov’t has since erected some sort of memorial and pledged a lot of money to helping Rwanda as a result of this mess, so I suppose there *is* some admittance of guilt to how that shit all went down.. it’s literally set in stone.

            In the end, now, is Rwanda better than pre-colonial days? I’d say yes, VERY likely. However, there was a genocide in-between then and now, and the colonial gov’t is arguably the primary reason for that. Good trade-off? Maybe not.

        • Identitet14

          You do have to be white to be british. Why are white countries for everyone while you other races are allowed to keep your countries homogenous. Disgusting hypocrite, Europe is for europeans.

      • Probotector

        “Incidentally, by your own “logic”, you have no right to criticize living in Britain unless you are white.”

        Interesting point.

    • Germandude

      Great post. It’s a joyful read and I’d like to thank you personally for giving my breakfast an entertaining jewel which made my coffee tasting twice as good as usual.

      People tend to forget what human rights are all about and you clearly pointed that out to us readers.”I can point my long range laser pointer at tall buildings without the f*cking police confiscating it”

      No other than Jeanne d’Árc herself fought for people’s most valuable right. Being allowed to point laser pointers at tall buildings. You can clearly see the protests in multiple countries in the world where people are standing up for their right of the usage of laser pointers, while restricting governments (tyrants, one-party nazi states etc) are withholding that right from its people. China, the bastion of laser-pointers and freedom stands strong in the wind against countries like the UK (no laser pointers allowed) and the US (even the death penalty for laser-pointer usage is still practiced).

      Furthermore, I loved how you, as a foreigner in China, clearly experienced the other freedoms in China, without seeing much police. Obviously, Shanghai is representative of the whole country and your experiences you made there grant people that haven’t been to China a look into the bastion of freedom.
      No wonder, China is known for its great freedom of expression, multiple-party political system (HKG, TW and mainland being one country with 3 diff. governments), and the general high living standards and freedom of the population.
      Americans and British can only enviously look towards China and hopefully, one day, will have the guts to stand up against their governments and make the positive changes that China long ago successfully made.

      0/10 Your post is so stupid, I know 4 year olds that wouldn’t argue the usage of laser pointers being a measurefor freedom.The police you see in the US and the UK is most likely needed to keep criminals off the street because they think their freedom allows them to limit other people’s freedom.
      In fact, your post was so retarded, the only suggestion I have for you: Go immigrate to China since you have the choice. Why aren’t you?

      • mr.wiener

        Power to the pointers.

      • grand

        another simpleton intoxicated by the “freedom” propaganda. democracy means nothing when all the major political parties are controlled by the rich. does “campaign contributions” ring any bells? you think the politicians really working for your best interest?

        • Vox-Populi

          Yeah. Just go look at America. Democracy yes, but a miserable one.

          • grand

            don’t forget india, the largest democracy that is now going nowhere, the riots that is going on in thailand, and the mess that is the phillipines. the list goes on.

          • Vox-Populi

            People always assume that democracy is the best system in the entire world. Little do they know, like every system, it can be cheated.

          • maybeabanana

            Hey hey, maybe a republic would be more suitable.

          • Vox-Populi

            I may sound stupid for this, but what is a republic, and how does it work?

          • maybeabanana

            Im not a word smith so i shall qoute others who are more elegantly than i: “I pledge alligence, to the republic of the United states of america.” “In a republic, each individual is allowed power over themselves. This allows individuals to have more power compared to a democracy, where a group has power. Republics promote individualism, which benefit weaker and minority groups from the majority” “However, any form of government can be corrupted and when large parties force out smaller ones and corporations have too much lobbying power it becomes an oligarchy dressed up as a republic.”

          • Vox-Populi

            “However, any form of government can be corrupted and when large parties force out smaller ones and corporations have too much lobbying power it becomes an oligarchy dressed up as a republic.”

            That is USA.

            Which means it depends on the person who govern the country, as well as how easily can the system be corrupted. You can try mixing the system (like what China does, which helped them escape from the misery of 100% pure communism), but still, you won’t get a perfect system.

            Although China is strong and successful, there are many things they have to correct on, such as media censorship (I love China, but I still think this is stupid, to be honest). If China went republic or democratic, they will have their full potential unlocked, and maybe their economy might accelerate further. You might call me crazy, but a democratic/republic China might be more powerful than USA within one or two decades, if the government is a good one of course.

          • Vox-Populi

            Thank you :)

        • Germandude

          Yes, @disqus_CwdytuVMpZ:disqus . Intoxicated by the “freedom” propaganda. As mentioned to @disqus_8wRjmJ1NeI:disqus in my comment above: Living in the shadow of those in power in the west is better than in China.
          Like Obama or not. Like Mr. Schroeder (best example of an average guy becoming a president) or not. The simple examples of those becoming people in charge, shows how democracy beats a one-party system in which you, grand, are controlled not to disturb the status quo. You won’t even have the chance to make your voice heard without fearing serious oppression up to the death penalty.
          Or do you think “average Mr. Zhou” is controlling the CCP’s campaigns.
          +1 for ignorance and stupidity. Mr. Simpleton.

          • Brian227

            How many of the political elites in Germany, the UK, USE, etc. have any hands-on experience of life as lived by the very lowest economic orders? How many, thanks to the Cultural Revolution and ’sending educated youths to the countryside’, in China?

            Isn’t Gerhardt Schroeder the one who went to work for a Russian gas company after retiral?

          • grand

            what a load of nonsense. people like west because of its relative economic prosperity, not because your so-called democracy. your so-called democracy is merely a tool that is used to serve the interests of a few. your common folks have no power to set government policy or the direction of your country is going, the corporate elites who controls your politicians do. it doesn’t matter who you choose in the elections, you opinion is meaningless to your politicians.

            and what exactly is the freedom you so love to brag about? the freedom to choose which politicians to screw with your life? looool!

            the fact is 85% of chinese are happy with the direction their country is going, comparing to 19% in france, 26% in the UK, 31% in US, and 57% in germany. says plenty about your democracy.

            http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/3/

          • Zappa Frank

            This is what you like to believe because you have no choice.. so accuse other people to be dirty because if we are all dirty we are all equals..
            our countries may not do all that we say and for sure there are elites (lobbies) that force some hands… but still we live in a country with by far more rights, to express ourselves, to live without fear of pissing off goverments and yes we do have a strong influence also on the politic, not as much as we should, but by far more than Chinese that are happy about their government because have no choice

          • grand

            haven’t you been reading the comments made by the chinese netizens criticizing the government? were they all thrown in to jails? no. do the government often listen to them and heed their concerns? yes. chinese government do care very much what the people think and do respond to their demands, they do change for the better.

            your comment that “happy because they have no choice” doesn’t make sense. you are either happy or not happy. people weren’t happy under bush, they are not happy under obama. it’s quite clear, both choice are bad, as they both serve the interests of a few not the common folks.

          • Zappa Frank

            Oh, so they can criticized their government anonymously from internet? That’s great!
            Yes Chinese government care so much about citizens, even Chinese people don’t believe it but you do..
            Happy because they do not know any alternative and never experienced freedom, you don’t miss something you don’t know…

          • grand

            not only on the internet but also thousands of protests each year in china.

            75% people agrees the government is doing a good job. i think it’s quite obvious that the chinese do agree with the government.

          • Germandude

            Now if I am coming from a country in which 40 years ago tens of millions starved to death, I am surely more happy about the development of my country when things improve.
            When I am already having a great standard of living but things slowly stabilize themselves, decrease slightly in some areas while improving on others (too complex to explain consumerism here now), the outcome is happiness results as in your example.

            Now how many of those US, UK, GER guys in your statistics, you think, would like to change with the 85% of the Chinese that are happy with the direction their country is going?

            Or, to make it easier for you to understand (I have my doubts): While some people are happy about having STH to eat, others get unhappy because they got picky on WHAT to eat.

            The starting point is a completely different one.

            No need to further discuss. You either don’t get it or you want to troll.

          • grand

            first of all, that “tens of millions starved to death” is highly exaggerated. it’s simply not true and was used to demonize the communists. it was already refuted by the chinese who were from that era.

            however, there was a famine. who caused it? one crucial factor is US sanctions and embargo on china’s involvement in korean war.

            http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FD01Ad04.html

            i fail to see you point. does this have any relevance to the fact that chinese government has a higher appoval rating than any western governments, and the fact that clearly china is doing a great job at improving the living standards of its citizens while west is clearly stagnating and is even dropping in standard of living?

          • Germandude

            Come back to me when you have read and understood basic human concepts. Start with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

            If you correctly figured out where the average Chinese and the average “western” stands in the pyramide; and then, when you understand the correlation between “going up the pyramide and an increase in unhappiness the higher you are”; well, then come back and we can talk again.

            ‘Til then, goodbye. Waste someone else’s time…

          • grand

            i’ve been to europe so you can’t fool me. with the high price level the europeans have to endure, i fail to see how they are happier. everything is so much more expensive in europe. you can pretty much live a better life in china with 5000 RMB per month in a small city than europeans with 3000 euro per month. i would image life is even harder now with youth unemployment over 40% in many parts of europe.

            obviously a few countries like norway, germany , the netherlands etc are doing a little better than the rest. but most are suffering. though they have much cleaner air and water than china i’ll give you that.

          • Germandude

            Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I said you shall waste someone else’s time.
            Again, your foolish argumentation about price levels (what about income levels?) just shows me that you are lacking any kind of general understanding.

          • Alex Dương

            first of all, that “tens of millions starved to death” is highly exaggerated. it’s simply not true and was used to demonize the communists. it was already refuted by the chinese who were from that era.

            It’s not exaggerated at all.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Jisheng

            The claim that the CCP murdered 1.2 million Tibetans after 1959 is a complete fabrication. But the claim that tens of millions of Chinese died of hunger during the Great Leap Forward is a fact.

          • grand

            the figure was disproved by chinese who were from that era. there were death but more like millions, no where near “tens of millions” as the US and taiwan’s ROC nationalist government was propagating.

            it’s funny how they would blame it all on the CCP. sure the communist government’s failed economic policy was partly to lame but clearly china also faced natural disasters at that time. not to mention US’s food embargo. this is why china still has a policy of food self-sufficiency in place today.

          • Alex Dương

            Yang Jisheng lived through the Great Leap Forward and interviewed others who survived that period. Tens of millions of Chinese died of hunger in those years; that is a fact.

          • grand

            no, that is not a fact. that was a figure made up by the anti-communists ROC government in taiwan at that time to demonize the communists and was accepted by the US because they are also anti-communists and had an agenda.

            at that time china only had 500 million or so people you are saying neary 10% dead from hunger and people wouldn’t notice? people from that era has already refuted the claim and puts the number in millions at the most.

          • Alex Dương

            Since you seem to trust the CCP so much, the official statistics from the PRC itself put the death toll from the Great Leap Forward at 15 million.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

            Yang Jisheng estimated 36 million deaths due to the famine itself, and as you know but won’t admit, Yang is not American or from the ROC. He is in fact a member of the CCP and a former journalist for Xinhua.

          • grand

            this is my last reply to you, as i hate to have to repeat myself. you only quote a number from this one chinese person, the rest being western historians, while nearly all other chinese from that era already refuted the number as nonsense.

            most people in china agree that the number is in millions not tens of millions. you are going to tell them, who are the vast majority and lived though the era, are wrong about their own real life experience and, you are right by reading the opinion of a few western scholars?

          • Alex Dương

            The CCP’s statistics put the death toll at 15 million. Since you trust the CCP so much, this conversation is over: your own source betrays you.

          • grand

            my last reply: chinese government NEVER said such thing.

            as to your pointing to census data, the article i posted already explained census statistics of china back then was flimsy and mainly based on estimation that do not reflect reality. the fact is that china’s population was growing very fast from 1950 to 1980 from less than 500 million to over 1 billion. use your own brain please.

            based on account by people who lived though that era, the number “30 million” is pure fatasy and has already been refuted. they simply didin’t see or know that many people die from starvation.

          • Alex Dương

            You posted two blog entries. It is as if you are citing your own comments as “sources.” Ridiculous.

            If you don’t trust “Western sources,” that is your right. I’ll give you Chinese sources besides Yang Jisheng:

            1. Jiang Zhenhua and Nan Li, 17 million
            2. Shanghai University, 34.71 million
            3. Yu Luting, 40 million
            4. Cao Shuji, 32.5 million

            http://www.gmw.cn/01wzb/2005-11/13/content_330275.htm

          • xiaode

            “i fail to see you point. does this have any relevance to the fact that chinese government has a higher appoval rating than any western governments, and the fact that clearly china is doing a great job at improving the living standards of its citizens while west is clearly stagnating and is even dropping in standard of living?”

            “haven’t you been reading the comments made by the chinese netizens criticizing the government? were they all thrown in to jails? no. do the government often listen to them and heed their concerns? yes. chinese government do care very much what the people think and do respond to their demands, they do change for the better.”

            Let me ask: did you only get 2x 5mao for these 2 glorious comments or did they give you some extra coins for these ones?

            You definitely made my day…

          • BiffyClanger

            Its more complicated than that. Most Chinese people approve of Central government and Central government only. If the survey was done for local government you will likely see a very different picture. The division of interests between central and local (中央,地方) has deep roots in Chinese political structure, history and culture. Most historical plays from the Song dynasty onwards will feature some sob story about local government abuse and some upright official higher up delivering justice.

          • grand

            the survey is conducted not by the government but by the US survey company PEW. they surveyed cities and villages across china.

            i agree with you that china has a bad corruption problem that needs solving, and the situation is gradually improving.

      • Marcus Black

        You simply miss the point. You ignore the meal on the table in order to pick the bread crumbs falling on the floor. The laser pointer is used as an example. Also I know Shanghai doesn’t represent the whole of China, however given it’s rivals the capital and can be compared with London, one would expect the police to be everywhere if it lacks so much freedom and the government is too tyrannical. No point endlessly arguing over the highly subjective issue of “freedom”. Enjoy your “freedom”.

        • Lord_Helmet

          Germandude is now your owner, how does it feel?

        • Germandude

          ” You ignore the meal on the table in order to pick the bread crumbs falling on the floor”
          Let’s see. A shop owner in London and a shop owner in Shanghai. Who is better off? You know, actually owning his place and being protected by the laws, applicable to everyone.
          I am not arguing that “the meal on the table” is not majorly consumed by those in powers. I am arguing that the “bread crumbs” left behind are bigger in the west than in China.
          And eating those crumbs and sitting at the table is better/safer in the west than in China.

          But again: Why not immigrating to China if it’s better there, Marcus?

          • cantonizi

            Blacks should stay in Germany or the UK and not go to or immigrate to China.
            Why all the blacks come from Germany, what about the US?

          • Germandude

            Congratulations @cantonizi:disqus . You have successfully mastered stage one: hitting the keyboard and write words.
            Stage 2 will be to insert sense into the gibberish you just typed.
            Is it your first day out of kindergarden and you think you can play ball with the big guys?

          • nickhz

            well done

          • mr.wiener

            You talk of equality in some posts,yet in this post you are a knuckle dragging racist…what gives?

        • Dick Leigh

          Why yes, there is a lot of freedom in China ESPECIALLY for foreigners because the police won’t touch us with a ten foot pole and most people will bend over backwards to help us because of the novelty factor of dealing with waiguo pengyou.

          • Marcus Black

            No guy. I have a friend who has lived in Shanghai her whole life and she has never told me about being harassed by the police. We had many political discussions. The police didn’t knock down her door and threw her in jail for not liking the CCP. These are all bullsh*t exaggerations.

          • nickhz

            because it didn’t happen to the one person you know in shanghai means it doesn’t happen. it is not an exaggeration, in the 2.5 years i have been here i have seen crazy stuff. like a forced demolition of a housing area with families outside crying. businesses being torn down by fake police because they didn’t bribe the right person. just because your one friend didn’t have that happen doesnt mean it doesn’t happen. try looking outside of shanghai if you want to see what china is really like

          • Dick Leigh

            Wow, so if you two are so confident in the freedom that China has to offer why don’t you try protesting about something? Heck, even try organizing a pro-China march and see how long it takes for it to get shut down by the police.

      • Probotector

        I agree his example of a laser pointer isn’t the best, but he does have a point that in China people effectively have more personal freedom to go about their business than in the UK because of draconian anti-terrorism and health and safety laws. However, Chinese people getting to do what they want without repercussions speaks more about the laziness and indifference of law enforcement in China rather than genuine freedom per se. Nevertheless, anyone in China, be they Chinese or not, will suffer less harassment from the cops than in the UK. Take employment for example, in China, a foreigner can get a basic job (most likely as a teacher) no sweat, but to get any kind of job in the UK, you need to provide an enhanced criminal records bureau certificate, which proves that you’ve never fallen afoul of the law even for minor offences like speeding or a police caution. Basically, you are presumed guilty until you can prove your innocence.

        • Germandude

          Come on mate. Do you really want to argue now about which country is more protective of its average citizen’s rights?

          Last time I checked, you could sue the government, the companies, the authorities in Europe. And you either got a good deal to make way or you simply didn’t.
          Now since when is it common that the average Chinese citizen stands a chance in front of court against any official? In fact, since when is it common that people consider even doing so without fearing heavy penalities?

          With no means do I say that the western system is perfect (it’s far away from that). However, putting that on one level such as Marcus and grand did, is simply ridiculous. In fact, that’s challenging intelligence…

          I thought you were smarter than that.

          • Probotector

            Well it varies depending on what aspects of both societies you’re talking about. I will agree with you about the legal system in China, but I wasn’t referring to that. Both Marcus and I were referring to the frequency of being stopped and harassed by the cops, which in the UK you get more frequently partly because they have arrest targets to meet, and partly because they are balancing the different demographics that they stop and search so as not to seem overly biased towards one particular demographic group. In China I’ve never even spoken to a cop let alone been stopped and questioned/searched by one. Again, like I said before, the cops here are negligent, but the reality of it is still that they give you less hassle. If you’re asking me if I really want to argue now about which country is more protective of its average citizen’s rights, well I’d have to say both countries are polar opposites in everything they are about (the British are far more pedantic, the Chinese are far more negligent) but both societies are as bad as each other.

        • Rick in China

          Fallacies in your statements:
          1) To get a work visa/residence permit in China, ie. work legally, you also need to provide a criminal record check from your home country.
          2) “personal freedom” – there is no evidence to support this whatsoever. Teenagers getting arrested for weibo posts that the government finds critical? Personal freedom for the win. Chengguan harassing people on the street with carts for selling watermelon? Banning outdoor BBQ? I don’t want to bother continuing down this line, because personal freedom….is absolutely not something that China is known to support.
          3) In China, you are *literally* presumed guilty until you can prove your innocence, unlike in your silly example. If you are charged with a crime, the assessment of the crime is out of your hands and basically they have it on *lock* unless you can pull massive evidence down in your favour as well as convince the court to rule in your favour, which I believe the statistic is something like 90something percent to convict all who are charged in China as guilty. The few who aren’t rammed through the guilty until innocent system, probably had to bribe their way out.

          I have a feeling you’re basing your idea of ‘freedom’ on the fact that previously foreigners could get a travel or bs ‘business’ visa, and work part time teaching English at some cheat-their-customers “English school”. Both of which are illegal, btw. What other ‘freedoms’ you’re referring to, I’ve no idea.

          • Probotector

            When you apply for a Z visa you you need to state whether or not you’ve been convicted of a crime in your country. I suppose this is checked out, but when you apply for a residence permit although they might check to see if you’ve run afoul of the law in China, you don’t have to declare anything yourself or be interviewed etc. However, my ‘silly example’ is accurate for how it is in the UK, and doing this shouldn’t be a prerequisite to getting a job in your own country (unless you work with kids or the vulnerable or sensitive information etc.). In China, yes, because as a foreigner, to get the privilege to come here you should prove yourself trustworthy. As a teacher however, I’ve never had to prove I’m clean in order to work with kids. In the UK one is presumed a potential child abuser when applying for a teaching position, until proven otherwise.

            The stuff you mentioned about abuse of freedom in China is true, (although many street peddlers seem to operate unhindered) but there are other times, such as littering or doing other foul things in public, not observing safety procedures, selling stuff on the street without a licence, destruction of property (see anti-Japan protests), slacking off at work or in school and cheating your way through your education, or simply not turning up to work clean shaven and all suited and booted, which hold no consequences in China, but would carry severe disciplinary or criminal consequences in the UK and elsewhere. It really depends on what aspects of Chinese society you’re referring to.

            I’ll agree with your third point, as I never said you’re not presumed guilty in China when it comes to criminality.

          • Rick in China

            What you’re describing is freedom _to break the law_ and get away with it. All the examples you cite in China are illegal (except showing up to work looking a mess, which isn’t a crime in any country that I know of..), just not heavily policed – although I’ve heard of people getting fines for littering on Nanjing Lu in Shanghai. Do you really think having to prove yourself as not having a criminal record involving sexual abuse in order to work with kids as a bad thing, and related to FREEDOM? Damn…horrible examples. Also, for Z visa, the new visa laws require all new visa applicants (not renewals) to provide a document from your home country stating no criminal or court record, although depending where you’re applying (city/state) some PSBs may not have fully implemented the requirement as of yet.

          • Probotector

            No, only street peddling without a licence and destruction of property were things that I mentioned that are illegal. everything else, “littering or doing other foul things in public, not observing safety procedures… slacking off at work or in school and cheating your way through your education, or simply not turning up to work clean shaven and all suited and booted” is legal in China, even if they are officially ‘not allowed’, but they are things you cannot do in the UK without losing your job and/or being prosecuted for.

            If however these examples are too ‘horrible’ for you then how about these. It’ a crime in the UK to ride a bicycle or motorcycle (driver and passengers) without a helmet. The same goes for car seat belts. It’s not in China. In the UK if you own a TV (even if you don’t watch it, say if you use it for video games or watching movies only) you have to buy a licence every year that costs £112 annually, and you’ll be fined £10 000 if you don’t pay. This is not the case in China. If a policeman hears you utter a swear word in the UK you’ll be threatened with arrest, and arrested if you do it again. In China you won’t. It’s illegal to smoke anywhere in public in the UK (except outside), In China it’s not, even if there’s a no smoking policy, it’s still not a crime. In China there’s no age restriction to buy alcohol or cigarettes, in the UK you have to be 18, so if a bunch of teens want to light up or have a beer in China they can. Now, some of these things may not be allowed, as such, in China, but they are not illegal, and even if they are, they’re not enforced. In the UK all laws are enforced, no matter how petty. So I ask again, which is a more free society for someone to simply go about their business unhindered?

            Regarding “Do you really think having to prove yourself as not having a criminal record involving sexual abuse in order to work with kids as a bad thing, and related to FREEDOM?”

            Yes it is. Why should I be presumed suspect or guilty just because I want a job. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? If you are a convicted sex offender, you are disqualified from such jobs anyway, and your employer or prospective employer can find that out on their own. What I was referring to originally to Germandude is that in the UK, the ECRB check is something you have to provide to your prospective employer and applies for virtually all jobs these days, not just for ones where you work with kids, and includes a check on all instances of falling afoul of the law, not just sex offences, but any convictions, police cautions, any arrests (even if you weren’t charged) and traffic offences. If you have any one of these, your chances of getting a job are at risk. Now tell me, if hypothetically I want a job in a call centre, what does it matter that I got a speeding ticket once or was arrested without charge for D&D? When it comes to employment, a person should be judged on what they have done in the job, not what they might do because modern society is too paranoid to trust anyone.

            As for the new Z visa laws, that’s news to me, but fair enough.

          • Rick in China

            *sigh* I will explain this all one last time, because obviously it’s not getting through, and the fact you think all of these things you are trying to strap to “freedom” as OK in modern society makes me think you’re a douchebag IRL, there is no other explanation.

            1) Both littering and “doing foul things in public” are illegal in China. Littering carries a penalty. Like I’ve said, I’ve heard of people getting fined. However, people litter rampantly, and it’s basically unenforced. Foul things..well, depends what you define as foul, you can be arrested for pissing or shitting in public (as an adult) in China

            2) Not observing safety procedures. This depends – if we’re talking about while at work or something, obviously you have to observe safety procedures, and in most cases in no country is this illegal, but rather ends in fines for you or your company and often getting fired. Is this impeding your freedom? Not observing safety procedures? At work? In public? Fuck no, if you’re endangering other people’s lives by being wreckless YOU SHOULD BE LOCKED UP for being a cunt.

            3) “cheating your way through your education” Yes. Illegal. WTF.

            I see none of the above which you claim as being part of personal freedom, as being part of personal freedom in any way whatsoever, and all things that SHOULD be prevented otherwise I have dick heads in public making my life worse. The point of laws regulations and restrictions in society, is so that people don’t fuck with other people – part of FREEDOM includes not being free to fuck with other people’s ability to enjoy the same public services / space as you through your actions, otherwise what you want is not personal freedom, but freedom for YOU to do what YOU want irregardless of other people in the vicinity, and that is why I’m a little bit outraged at your examples as being tied to something as important as personal freedom…they absolutely are not.

            5) Seat belts – um.. penalties for not wearing a seat belt in China are the same as penalties for not wearing a seat belt in the UK. In fact, police in China are often on street corners and sometimes you’ll see them waltz up and down traffic in the evening near those corners with flashlights – looking specifically for seat belt violators. I’m guessing you don’t drive – so I don’t expect you to know this, just another example of your ‘facts’ being fallacy.

            …skip skip skip, written too much, last important point:
            6) You are not a parent. There’s no fucking way. I’d guess you’re likely on the other end of the spectrum – someone with a record of sorts in the UK hence have a massive bitterness against the fact you can’t get away with being a pedo and getting a job in a school? What the fuck is up with that? As a parent, I would absolutely expect schools to do significant checks on potential employees before they allow them to be in any sort of position of authority over my child. It’s ridiculous to think otherwise. This isn’t “restricting personal freedom” – anything regarding EMPLOYMENT isn’t restricting your freedom, it’s saying I’m not going to hire you if you have a fucked up past because this job demands some semblance of trust in the person being hired. That makes perfect sense, and as an employer I would have that standard irregardless of whether it was the law or not – and in the UK, I’m guessing it is a *standard* by employers, not a *law* enforced by the gov’t. Yes? No? Doesn’t matter, fucked up argument to make.

          • Probotector

            First, how is cheating in school illegal? Immoral and punishable yes, but it’s not criminal. “WTF?” back at you.

            “The point of laws regulations and restrictions in society, is so that people don’t fuck with other people – part of FREEDOM includes not being free to fuck with other people’s ability to enjoy the same public services / space as you through your actions, otherwise what you want is not personal freedom, but freedom for YOU to do what YOU want irregardless of other people in the vicinity, and that is why I’m a little bit outraged at your examples as being tied to something as important as personal freedom…they absolutely are not.”

            I agree, as that wasn’t my point. The point is in England, you’ll be more heavily punished for these things. I agree that these things are reprehensible, but if the penalties for them are not enforced in China, then people are still ‘free’ to do them, regardless as to whether you (or I) consider it wrong.

            “…skip skip skip, written too much,”
            Does that mean you couldn’t think of an argument against the other things I mentioned, meaning you either don’t know about them or can’t think of any reason why they wouldn’t be a violation of personal freedom? Tell me, how is it the mark of a free society that I will be fined if I don’t pay to watch TV, or can be arrested for saying ‘fuck’? Perhaps you should reflect on your own words from another post you made, as “someone who is passionately arguing about countries they have no fucking idea about in a ‘matter of fact’ way” when talking about the UK.

            “You are not a parent. There’s no fucking way. I’d guess you’re likely on the other end of the spectrum – someone with a record of sorts in the UK hence have a massive bitterness against the fact you can’t get away with being a pedo and getting a job in a school? What the fuck is up with that?”

            Seriously, don’t try to psychoanalyse or make assumptions about someone’s life when you don’t know them, as all you have to go on are limited comments from the internet, because usually you’ll be wrong. Indeed, that wasn’t my point at all. With the stuff about criminal records, my point isn’t about whether employers should have access to someone’s criminal record, and they can find that out any time they want through freedom of information. My beef is that someone WHO HAS NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG has to go through the motions of proving their innocence before they can get a job. I agree that if you have a record that it should count against you, and would be useful information to protect the innocent an the vulnerable.

            Look, I’ve seen your other posts on here and I often agree with what you say about China, and I agreed with everything you said about China in your first reply to me Don’t get me wrong, I understand how fucked up China is, but the UK is hardly better, and if you lived there/grew up there you would understand what these issues are.

          • Rick in China

            RE: “First, how is cheating in school illegal? Immoral and punishable yes, but it’s not criminal. “WTF?” back at you.”

            BOOM: http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20140212134833693

            (Here’s the 2009 one mentioned in the Guardian, lots of jailtime for these cheats/families/officials http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/apr/03/china-jails-exam-cheats)

            Is it “illegal” in the UK? A crime with stiff sentence?

            Your last reply was a little more coherent in terms of making sense than the others, which, I took, as “freedom means I can do: list of bad shit” – when I don’t consider any of those as being valid metrics for individual freedom (nor do any think tank freedom indexes published that I could find), and I agree that sometimes going through extra hoops is a pain in the ass, and I also agree that sometimes it seems very bureaucratic and without cause, but I also don’t think that employers requiring a criminal record check is akin to countries providing legal freedoms to their citizens — more of a societal standard by which private companies or organisations choose to do extra due diligence to ensure they are getting what you, as a candidate, are presenting..

          • nickhz

            so you are saying… the innocent should not have to do something as simple as going to get a background check to get a visa to another country? and by not doing so, letting those who are not innocent slip by?

          • Probotector

            First of all I was referring to these checks for UK citizens in the UK, and no, I’m saying a background check should be done on the employer’s own time and expense.

          • nickhz

            agree to disagree. have a good day

          • nickhz

            was he seriously arguing that he shouldn’t have to provide a criminal check? using innocent until proven guilty? what an idiot, he was proven guilty… and now thinks he should be able to hide it? i know it was just an example and im not saying dude is a sex offender btw

          • Rick in China

            I have less of a problem with the complaint than with relating it to personal freedom :D

          • Probotector

            Don’t try to jump to conclusions, I’m not defending criminality. I’m saying why should an innocent person go through the motions of proving their innocence to an employer in their own country (the UK in this case), which is time consuming and costly, when the employer can simply run a background check themselves (which they do anyway). If you had scrolled down you would have seen that I already made this clarification to Rick before you made the above post.

          • nickhz

            because an employer can’t “simply” do a background check. For your privacy protection, a complete stranger can’t just ask for a criminal check on anyone they choose. That would be a complete lack of privacy.

          • nickhz

            since july of last year you must provide a criminal background check to get a z visa. if you have a z visa already you can keep renewing it, in which case you don’t need to get a criminal check. but if at anytime frim now on you need a new z visa ie. your previous company won’t transfer it, you will have to go to your home country to get a criminal check

    • hailexiao

      It’s the quality of the rule that matters, not who is doing the ruling. Although British Hong Kong does have rather odious beginnings, by the end it was better administrated and gave its people more rights than the mainland. Recent history is always more relevant than distant history in judging a government because it sets a trend that continues into the future and is closer to the present. I’d rather live in a country that started out as a reactionary totalitarian shithole and later became a thriving liberal democracy than vice versa.

      Racial pride is the bane of a just and benevolent society. Fuck racial pride. I owe my loyalty to my society and to my government, not to my ethnicity.

      • mr.wiener

        Indeed, look at the history of Australia.

      • Marcus Black

        All the colonies only contribute to making Britain richer and London more advanced. At the end of the day a colony is a colony. You are a colony not because they respect or want the best for you or even like you, but because it’s in their interest. Oh by the way I used racial and ethnicity loosely because China is mostly homogeneous so don’t take it too literally.

        • How does that apply to the UK any more than it does to the PRC? Hong Kong is only making China richer and Beijing more advanced. The PRC holds onto Hong Kong not because they respect or want the best for Hong Kongers or even like Hong Kongers (many mainlanders despise Hong Kongers), but because it’s in their interest.

          You clearly are making this about race and ethnicity because there is no other basis for why a free Hong Kong under the UK should be a “colony” and a repressed Hong Kong under the PRC shouldn’t be considered the same.

          I do not think racial or ethnic purity is something civilized countries should strive for in the modern era.

          • Vox-Populi

            It’s the same thing if Hong Kong is part of UK. UK will not hesitate to take advantage of Hong Kong reintergration to make themselves richer and beat the Chinese Economy. Also, they can use Hong Kong to build military bases and help with the containment of China too.

      • Wave_R1der

        If your government is shit, would you still owe your loyalty to your society and government?

      • Marcus Black

        One of the most disrespectful thing about British rule is the blatant sign of racial superiority over the colonies. Do you know about the “No Dogs and Chinese Allowed” sign? That just tells you how the ruling class in Britain think of their subjects. Not only are they on your land, but they also now ban you from going to certain places. This racism against citizens of the colony hasn’t gone away. It just hidden in a closet and frequently manifests itself in subliminal ways. They must learn to properly rule themselves rather than depend on Britain to do it for them. I know some of these things are in the past, but for one to better understand the present, you must first look at the past. We all know the majority of Britons think the Chinese are dogs deep down. I personally dislike monarchism because its no different to the CCP. In fact the CCP is more democratic. Don’t bother using the “Queen has no power” argument. She is in control of the army, therefore she has power. I have had too many arguments with loyalists over this simple fact.

        I love Britain and would even defend it if the cause is just (It wasnt dragged into a war from following orders of the former colony America), however I think its too much of a nanny state and the wealth gap is ever increasing. In Britain rights are for the rich. They can pressure the government to pass laws in their favour. Us peasants have little to no rights.

    • DavidisDawei

      I understand what you are trying to say Marcus.
      The police in China don’t bust your balls over bullshit like they do in the States (and the UK, I suppose from what you’re saying)
      I used to roller blade to work until they passed an ordinance that forbid people from rollerblading downtown. I found out about this after a bicycle cop stopped me and told me I was breaking the law.
      The mantra used to be “Protect and Serve”, used to be plastered on the sides of all police cars….Now what does it say? Law Enforcement?
      That bicycle cop told me, Hey Man , I don’t make the laws, I enforce them.
      I told him “Chicken Shit”, when all I hear from them is “I was only following orders”
      But that is what we have today in the US of A.

      • Vox-Populi

        That rollerblading law is really unnecessary :
        As if people will purposefully rollerblade to a person, like a human weapon or something.

        • Rick in China

          More likely some wreckless rollerblader bumped out infront of a car, got hit, and caused a big ruckus.

    • Mighty曹

      lt’s not a fair assessment of what the Brits did on the onset of of the colonial days. Fast the fuck forward 100 years and talk about how life has improved under modern British rule on its way to being one of the most prospered city state on the planet. By your logic, should all the blacks in America go back to Africa because they were so badly treated just 100 years earlier?

      When the knife attack was taking place at the Kumming railway station where the fuck were the police? I’ll rather see policemen at every corner and feel safe than not being able to fuck around with a laser pointer.

      • Vox-Populi

        When China deploy more policemen on Kunming, people complained that China is tightening the grip on Uyghur people. If they pulled out the policemen for the sake of giving a better impression that they’re not opressing the Uyghurs, there will be more attacks.

        Kunming wasn’t a dangerous place until the knife attacks, so police are kinda little around the place. But the policemen in UK are a probable sign of growing paranoia and opression to the public.

        • Mighty曹

          So they’re in a Catch-22 that needs some serious solution. It’s just odd that security is so lax at a major transportation hub. On the other hand, whenever there was a Falun Gong demonstration undercover police always outnumbered members. Clearly, they had great plannings in place.

      • maybeabanana

        dudeeee havent you seen the movies…the police is always there late. the police are a law enforcer not public protection. how about their pact on not crossing the blue code of silence. their cars used to say public protection, now we are the enemy and they enforces the laws. thugs in uniform. giving up freedom for security with a veil of safety will bring all of us in shackles. think about why the govt is prepping their training with military tanks and weaponry … for what?? bc they bought too much?? throwing our tax money in wars or … are they prepping to use it against their own people. why? bc we the people are tired of bending over in taxes, legislation, net neutrality, and the spying.

        • Mighty曹

          What???

          • maybeabanana

            Police is not a sign of your protection.

          • Mighty曹

            I get angry and voice my opinion whenever there’s a case of police harassment, brutality or the use of excessive force but it doesn’t mean this occurs every day on a regular basis like you make it seems.

            Can you honestly tell me that you’d rather live in a society under lawlessness over one with “thugs in uniforms, giving up freedom for security, etc.”? Unless you’re the one doing the killing and the raping your answer is ‘no’.

          • maybeabanana

            Talk about Californians wanting to be a nanny state to protect people from peoples own stupidity. As if injustice and crimes had really been thwarted. If the police were effective..boston bombing anyone? Cops dont prevent unforseeable acts of terrorism and crazies…unless u want a minority report where any margin of error can put innocents in jail.
            but hey heres an idea, you want more security with bars to the windows and freebie meals and shelter…try maximum security. Then you “feel safe”.

            I dont want my country to turn into a full fledge gestapo stazi lookalike under the guise of protection and safety.

            I dont want to be under driving check points which has already happened. Involuntary dna sampling anyone? Come on..its all for your protection.

            I have not seen as much idiotic energy compliance rules for the state of CA and NY. All the engineers do is bypass it. Regulations just dont work. It all comes out of the expenses of people while big corps make money. Pro feinstein and meat head govt can go —–. Liberty and constitutional rights are the basics and all you cowards just want your safety and paychecks.

            Yeah I rather live in a society where people rely on themselves and of their own independence than giving up many of my rights to the govt and the masses dumass.

          • Mighty曹

            My question was about the lack of police presence at the Kumming Railway Station. There are armed police -undercover and uniformed – who patrol major transit hubs to deal with crimes like robbery, pick pockets, etc.. Don’t be confused that the cops’ duties are to prevent terrorist attacks? Besides, “unforeseen” (your own word) events are obviously not preventable yet you blame the cops for the ‘Boston Bombing’?

            Tell me what freedom or rights have been taken away from you? Show me evidence that this country is in the state as you’ve described. Check points? The only ones I know are for sobriety. If you don’t think we need those to prevent drunk drivers from killing innocent people have fun explaining that to a MADD mother who has lost a son or daughter. If anything, we should have more of these check points. Yes it may be an inconvenience but if it helps prevents a drunk driver getting behind the wheel I feel safer to be on the streets.

            Your idea of ‘security’ is life in prison shows what warped thinking goes through your mind. An individual whose paranoia and delusion makes him think that the establishment, government and private corporations, are out to suppress your rights and freedoms and butt fuck you financially. Domestic lunatics like you pose more of a threat to society than any foreign elements.

            Oh yeah, Oklahoma bombing, anyone?

          • maybeabanana

            Man, im going to give you the benefit of a doubt that you arnt really that stupid and you just got your red horse blinders on. I used the boston marathon to tell you that police cant prevent and ensure safety because you said you’d feel safer if theres one every corner. If they are so capable, they wouldnt have a stereotype huh? Even the chinese cops and their segways.

            I reccommemd some wiki on cia contra, historical drug wars and some not so recent affairs with checkpoints on swabbing for tissue samples. Bc right now you sound like a perfect govt shill or just a completely good sheep. My idea off security is based on independent reliance rather than your idea of having someone else protect you which is why the maximum security came to mind.

            As for OK bombing, how is that even related to having police protection? Infact if you read tim’s statement on why he did it, it implies another issue.

            You want to call me warp and paranoid while shit trickles in your face and you wouldnt smell it. How about no right to bear arms bc guns are banned? Amongst other political and corporate “regulations” coming down you would probably be okay with paying for more shit bc a service provider says it wants to charge more for this and that. How about having you pay for nsa’s spying? Im sure you’ll welcome it. Enjoy your nsa tapping into everthing thats digital and whats left of peoples privacy.

          • Mighty曹

            Give me the benefit of doubt but, in your defense, I can’t even call you stupid because I can’t imply the obvious to someone whose mind is incapable of logical reasoning.

            Repeat: Police is not to prevent terrorist attacks. (Can’t you get this in your head?) Police is for civic law enforcement. I feel safer to see uniformed police on the street as a deterrent to muggings or break-ins to my car so that I don’t need to carry my Glock illegally each time I leave my house. Yes, I DO have right to bear arms, just not as a concealed weapon. I also have my own provisions for ‘self defense’ that’s within the boundary of the laws. If you call people like me ‘cowards’ for relying on the police for our safety then it’s only fair for me to call you a deranged anarchist who rely on conspiracy theories to sustain your existence.

            What was Timothy McVeigh’s motive other than being anti authority as you, who thought the government was just murdering innocent people? Right, perfect example.

            If I’m smelling the shit that’s trickling down my face because of the conditions that you described in which I’m living in then I have to admit the shit tastes damn good. I want more! You need to get out more. I picture you to be a bitter anti-social recluse who gets drunk in the room and ramble nonsense like, “dude, have you seen the movies… the police is always there late”. LOL! Watch some porn instead.

            Btw, my stocks in big corps are doing extremely well for the 1st Qtr, 2014. Thank you!

          • Mighty曹

            NOT a comment. This is a photo that does not require moderation.

          • Rick in China

            ALEX JONES RADIO 101, get on it son!

          • Mighty曹

            Hahahahaha ALEX JONES???? I hope you threw that name up to be funny. But seeing that you’re not one of humor I regret to tell you what I think of any nutcases and followers like him. As they say about conspiracy theorists: Delusional, Paranoid, and schizotypy. All that stress leads to premature aging, son.

          • Rick in China

            I was referring to maybeabanana’s rant – it’s almost exactly what you’ll hear on Alex Jones’ show.

          • Mighty曹

            Oh…. I thought you’re a believer of that clown. SORRY RICK!

          • Rick in China

            F U C K no. Although I do like to listen to him rant on occasion, it’s amusing.

          • Mighty曹

            My bad! I always knew you’re too smart for that.
            I can’t listen to him as I get too edgy but I did watch Jesse Ventura’s ‘Conspiracy Theory’ show for pure entertainment.

      • whuddyasack

        An excellent point. I’ve never liked the “Sins of the father argument”. Sadly, it’s a very common argument used by certain people when referring to the Chinese because it applies to and only to Chinese. IMO, people should be consistent, and they should open their minds and evaluate things based on the pros and cons rather than give in to knee-jerk reactions.

        • Zappa Frank

          used referring to Chinese? about what?
          it is often used also by Chinese.. opium war, 8 armies, Nanjing and so on..

          • whuddyasack

            Not really, most of those events are actually brought up by Westerners in Western media and it’s very rare that Chinese media talks about the Opium War, the 8 Armies, etc. Chinese media does mention Nanjing but usually it is used within the context, an explanation of why they are reacting the way they do in contrast to Western media, who are neither Japanese or Chinese and narrow-mindedly using it to define every interaction between C and J.

            When it comes to the general public, most Chinese aren’t low enough hate on Westerners based on history the same way the other uses “Xinjiang”, “Tibet”, “Japan”, “Tienanmen Square”, “Mao’s Great Famine” and some other vague history to hate on Chinese people. That’s the difference.

          • Zappa Frank

            to tell the truth I’ve never seen all those kind of things on western media, except maybe during history programs or when is because an event happened in Tibet or Xinjiang, than it is said something to give an overview… either about describing relation between C and J I think they talked about Nanjing just when it was in the topic, for the rest I did not see that much interest about other kind of relation between C and J.. as matter of the fact even here on CS (from weibo or whatever) when there are J and C in topic 99% Chinese bring out Nanjing issue.. On the other side I still have to find a Chinese that don’t accuse whites of something done at least 100 years ago or more.. even here on CS..

          • Mighty曹

            I think that Chinese in general have adopted the ‘forgive but not forget’ mentality with the Westerners. Even my mother, who has traveled throughout Europe and Asia, refuses to set foot in Japan because of how her parents taught her to ‘hate’ Japanese. Chinese will never forgive Japan.

          • whuddyasack

            That’s why I said context. To be honest, I don’t think your observation is close to reality. 99% of C netizens did not bring up Nanjing issue during the Japanese pageant topic, they didn’t bring it up during the Japanese safety topic, nor did they bring it up during the topic where a Chinese mother was relating the experience of raising her child in Japan.

            As for the Western side of things, to be honest it isn’t like these things are hidden,it’s actually quite easy to find such references on articles related to China and it’s especially virulent in the comments section or discussion boards. The references are always provocative, and always unwarranted. One just has to browse Japan/China based websites like Shanghaiist, Chinadaily, JapanDailyPress, JProbe and JToday to see this.

            The last three aren’t actually Japanese sites since there are practically ZERO Japanese posting there regularly and barely any Chinese. However, they are teeming with White trolls and instigators.

            Now if a Chinese person made similar comments regarding French, Greeks, Chechens, Turks, Cypriots, Russians, Poles, Romanians, etc. they’d be asked to shut their mouths because it isn’t any of their business.

            See what’s wrong with this picture?

            Is it really that difficult to admit that most Chinese couldn’t care less about the Opium Wars, Holocaust, Witch pogroms, 8-Nation Alliance, etc.? No Chinese holds a grudge on Westerners because of their past even though it directly affected them. Meanwhile many Westerners use the “sins of the father” concept on Chinese when it doesn’t even affect them.

            Refer Mao’s great famine, 1989, China’s civil war, One Senkaku/Diaoyu, Child Policy, Xinjiang, Tibet and so many more.

          • Zappa Frank

            On comments translated here we can see that every time there is a topic about japan the rage and the Nanjing thing comes out. But we can also talk about the many tv series with the same topic.. than to say Chinese do not bring the ‘fault of your fathers’ on Japs is in my view really hard to believe.
            About the western articles, I’ve never seen anything like that, it may be that you are a bit oversensitive, because apparently you look for articles and media that talk exactly about it…is like to look for stormfront forum and complain that ‘whites’ (this generic expression that create a group never existed and that never recognized themselves as such before recent time) are racists. they are not representative. Most of westerner don’t even care about the relations between china and japan and probably don’t know what happened in Nanjing..
            In which way the 8-nation alliance affect Chinese people now? in no way reasonably, but this again come out really often in many conversations..
            Sins of fathers that you mentioned, used by westeners is not used with Chinese, but with the party, because the party is still the same that did those many things and since it never recognized any of those most western people believe it is an unreliable party that can do again the same things if had a chance..

          • whuddyasack

            Frankly my Frank, I have nothing against you but you need to know when you are beaten. You need to learn that I am rarely ever wrong and if I am, I’d admit it. To be honest, I’;m quite fond of you even if the feelings are not mutual ;-P

            It’s not about Stormfront or Chimpout or any other similar hate sites. Note I never visit or read articles from any of those sites since White nationalists/supremacists aka rednecks/bush pigs are the least interesting, lowest common denominator in my eyes. They are free to bellow and spew whatever vitriol they like in their own boards. I think they don’t understand what “keeping to themselves” means unfortunately.

            Either way, while Chinese don’t really care about Europeans, woe betide any Chinese for even being the least bit proud of themselves. All Chinese and only Chinese be damned for the sins of their fathers.

            There is a reason why I used the word “context” when talking about the Chinese bringing up Nanjing massacre. No need to worry about the Opium War, 8-Nations or some other obscure massacre that 99.999999% of Chinese have forgotten or don’t care about. Point being most Chinese couldn’t give a rat-you know-what about how Portugal was whooped by the Ming, or how the Europeans occupied Shanghai nor would they blame every European for it.

            every time there is a topic about japan the rage and the Nanjing thing comes out.

            Are you sure about that? Keep in mind the word CONTEXT please.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/miss-japan-beauty-pageant-winner-chinese-netizen-reactions.html

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/pictures/japanese-schoolgirls-energy-wave-attacks-chinese-reactions.html

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/stories/chinas-gdp-surpasses-japan-to-become-2-chinese-netizen-reactions.html

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/nhk-morning-news-ratings-up-thanks-to-big-breasted-beauty.html

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/videos/japanese-soccer-boy-football-prodigy-chinese-reactions.html

            Now let’s try to recall these articles:

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/xinjiang-netizens-react-to-kunming-knife-attack-public-backlash.html

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/netizens-compares-lost-chinese-territory-to-the-crisis-in-crimea.html

            Or this:

            http://shanghaiist.com/2014/03/25/watch_mh370_relatives_express_anger.php#comment-1301652351

            And read the comments/user name. 1989? Seriously?

            Nothing screams “Sins of the father” like the Non-Chinese accusing all Hans as evil because of what happened during the Cultural Revolution, pollution, corrupt officials, 1989, Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. I think you get the drift.

          • Mighty曹

            Awesome post!

          • whuddyasack

            Cheers, I know I’m good but coming from the great and MIGHTY 曹操 that’s a compliment!

            You are kind of a big deal, you know!!

          • Mighty曹

            Thanks! You make my ancestor 曹操 very proud. lol!

          • Zappa Frank

            I find amusing that you think this is a competition, but even more that you declare yourself winner as if you are in the same time competitor and judge. I think by my side I’ve showed already many times that I can admit when i’m wrong too.. and sorry but in this case really I don’t agree with you.
            About japans you find out some topics so trivial that even Chinese forgot to complain about japs and take them as example. I think are not a valuable examples, the grudge that Chinese have against Japanese is under anyone’s eyes, do riots remind you something? because even if the question were about the islands soon it came out even more the questions of Nanjing and so on.. or do islands by themselves justified those riots? I don’t doubt that Chinese can be civil and friendly with Japanese, but sincerely I have a lot of doubts that they don’t think ‘sins of your fathers’ when it’s about what happened during the 2WW, many Chinese even admit it, apparently you don’t.
            The other point, white people (this mysterious race that apparently is recognized only by who is not part of it) in your opinion use ‘the sins of your father’ against the poor Han Chinese.. but again you don’t show any evidences, just some links to trivial websites.. even your example are loose, because are not about what people say that Chinese DID and than bring those things on them now, but it is about what Chinese people DO now.. because pollution is now, Tibet is now, Xinjiang is now, corruption is now, and so on.. never heard anyone complaining about what Chinese people did in the past (and most of things they did to themselves anyway) to judge Chinese people now.. Of course you can find someone that say something like that, but to make of this an example of what ‘whites’ people think is fantasy… How do you know what ‘whites’ people think? do you know how many of ‘whites’ cultures? usually this gross generalizations of ‘whites’ as americans or in case some English people but mostly reduced to some rednecks (whose culture is different from mine almost as the Chinese one) is pretty common here..
            About the ‘sins of your fathers’ on Europeans I suggest you to read what Insomnicide wrote me, that we should apologize for what has been done.. why should I apologize if I don’t have any sin? the same goes for Japan, don’t Chinese ask to apologize?

          • whuddyasack

            I find amusing that you think this is a competition, but even more that you declare yourself winner as if you are in the same time competitor and judge.

            That was a tongue in cheek comment. In my experience, competition is very rare in this part of the web. Just kidding, don’t take this literally. Although I really am that good. Not joking now.

            Yes, feel free to disagree with me. But your disagreement is due mainly to personal ties and bias, hypersensitivity and defensiveness. This time you really are incorrect when you say:

            every time there is a topic about japan the rage and the Nanjing thing comes out.

            …as I’ve proven with my “trivial” links.

            the grudge that Chinese have against Japanese is under anyone’s eyes, do riots remind you something?

            Yes, I admit there is resentment but I also think it’s very different from the standard primal “vengefulness” that Caucasians feel at them Arabs, Blacks, Jews, Asians etc. That is why I use the word “context”.

            Most Chinese bring up the massacres when they feel that the Japanese are doing something to them, like broadcasting that Nanjing didn’t happen or taking “their” Islands however misguided that might be. I think Japan has the stronger claim. It is mostly aimed at Japanese governments or right wingers and political/historical in nature, not racial. China-bashers bring up the China’s shortcomings to put China and the “Chinese” down while looking like baboons in the process.

            As for the Riots, everyone riots. Some riot to the death over even more trivial matters like sports, see Russians, Poles, Canadians. The point is if you did read the Chinese internet and blogs, you’d know that many actually condemned the violence and expressed shame over their over-nationalistic compatriots. When there was gloating over Japan’s disasters, people actually stood up to silence the gloaters. Meanwhile, in CSmack, when a Westerner commits a crime, so many rush to defend the scumbag bellowing hateful vitriol and using the Sins of the Father argument, the vitriol being supported by many.

            pollution is now, Tibet is now, Xinjiang is now, corruption is now, and so on

            So is the Cultural Revolution, 1989 Tienanmen Massacre, foot binding, Korean War, Vietnam War, 2005 and 2012 riots isn’t it? Oh but of course it’s not.

            Btw, some Chinese would label all “Whites” together but I won’t. I understand that there’s differences between French, Italians, Russians, Brits, Americans, Kiwis, etc. When I use “redneck”, I’m not referring to you but a specific kind. By White people, I’m only referring to a group of Caucasians that call themselves that. And I’m not referring to skin color so it’s not racist. Many Europeans can have skins darker than the Chinese after all.

            I don’t think most of ‘whites’ even care

            I can’t speak for Europe much, but in my experience Americans, Canadians, Kiwis, Australians do care more than China cares for them (with the “possible” exception of America, but who doesn’t?). That’s why whenever a dispute between Japan and China is brought up, such threads would typically receive thousands of comments from Non-Japanese and Non-Chinese using the “Sins of the Father” argument to blame the “victim”…

            why should I apologize if I don’t have any sin?

            You don’t have to and almost no Chinese expects you to. I’d never want you to apologize for something you weren’t personally responsible for either, I think you’re major fault is “too much contrition” over what your ancestors did in WW2. It’s a complement to you but you shouldn’t beat on yourself too hard.

          • Mighty曹

            There is a Chinese equivalent to ‘Sins of fathers’. It’s along the line of “Children (of guilty parents) are innocent”.

          • Zappa Frank

            there is also an invite to turn the other cheek, and a golden rule in the bible, that doesn’t change that 99.9999999999999999999999% never followed them..

          • Mighty曹

            Oh well.

          • Insomnicide

            Because westerners who always claim western governments are transparent and charitable have yet to apologize or even recognize the opium war and the eight nation alliance as a horrible catastrophe. In fact, even today many anti-Chinese westerners actually use the opium war and the eight nation alliance to mock the Chinese people.

          • Zappa Frank

            never heard before any westener use the oppium war to mock chinese.. governments don’t have to apologize about anything..they were other people and in many cases also other countries (asburgic empire does’t not exist anymore, the italian kingdom either), ask them to apologize for something done more than 100 – 150 years ago by other people is absurd… should we apologize with france for for what happened during the roman empire? anyway you show my point perfectly

          • Insomnicide

            I’ve heard people use “something something like a chink without his opium” as an insult. And people mockingly say China will be defeated by shipments of opium.

            Anyway, the difference is the two nations in these conflicts still exist. And even if they don’t apologize, they should at least recognize the events as atrocities. Especially the mass rapes, mass murders and looting done by troops of the eight nation alliance which are completely overlooked while slavery in America or the American war against the British which are even older events are still commonly denounced as evil acts. It’s not really about the sins of the father, but rather recognition and understanding which is severely lacking.

          • Zappa Frank

            I don’t think there are people that do not recognize those acts as ‘evil’, but sincerely I think the magnitude is a bit overestimated, make it seems like all whites people went to china killing and raping.. What happened was bad but it was not all of the sudden.How many people got killed by the alliance? Because apparently most civilians people were killed by the boxers.. who started to kill people? again the boxers.. I agree that they felt like to do something to contrast the foreigner influence, but if you attack you cannot later complain to be defeated.
            However can you divided by nation? because apparently you like to make a huge mass of ‘whites’ people, but to ask French to apologize for what Russians did or the opposite for example is absurd.. in that case is well documented that both French and Russians did some atrocities, but for instance Japanese did not rape (in that case), Italians were just a symbolic presence, in the beginning we had just some sailors.. (and considering the skills of our armies I don’t think that would make a difference), we didn’t even get the compensation money just to say how much significance was our presence. Austrians? what did they do?
            And there are a lot of countries of white people that did not even join this war, and did not have any colony anywhere.. so I think is strange to always generically accuse ‘whites’ people..is like to accuse east Asian people for something done by some of them.
            As Italian I think we should just apologize to Ethiopia and Libia, and by the way we even gave back many goods looted during the colonial period.

          • Insomnicide

            I have not laid blame to all ‘white’ people. I’ve specifically stated westerners. Specifically the colonial powers. It is documented as far as we know that the ‘white’ American troops behaved quite well in contrast to their allies. And while the Japanese army did stop their soldiers from conducting rape, they didn’t stop soldiers rounding up Chinese civilians and killing them.

            Mainly, the British, French, Russian and German troops who not only raped, murdered and robbed thousands of innocent civilians who were uninvolved in the Boxers movement. But even the Boxers themselves, who only fought to protect their country from what they deemed a immediate threat. And the most ironic of all is that the colonial powers who ravaged their way through Beijing demanded financial compensation from China. This all goes unrecognised and according to some sources from those nations, some people even consider this event a proud and glorious moment in their nation’s history.

            To this day many people from those nations still believe that there’s no ‘scars’ between their country and China. That Chinese citizens harbouring resentment towards their nation or government is just straight up xenophobia or unjust racism.

          • Zappa Frank

            westeners are, with the exception of east Europe, all whites’ countries. When you say westerner you talk about, for instance, even Spanish, Greeks, Norvegians, and many other that never did anything to china.

            reparation had been paid in this way:

            Share of reparations[110]CountryShare %Russia30.00Germany20.00France15.75Britain11.25Japan7.70US7.00

            According to what I’ve read doesn’t seem that americans behaved better than others.. at the same time it was said also that Russians sent Siberian people and English sent indian people (just to say that it was not a white thing only).. there are some report from le Figaro Pierre Loti, Les Dernièrs jours de Pékin, Calmann-Lévy, Parigi 1901, pagine 75-76.

            I translate it: ‘Japanese arrived, small heroes whose I would not talk bad about, but that kill and destroy like barbarians of the old time. Even less I would like to talk bad about our friends Russians, but they sent some Cossacks from a tartar region, some Siberians half-mongols that still interpret the war in an Asian way (sic).Than arrived the knights of India for the British and Americans with their mercenaries.. there was nothing left when in the exciting of revenge, arrived French, Austrians, Germans and Italians’.

            Of course is just and episode, that doesn’t say French, Austrians, Germans and Italians did not do anything, also because as Alfred von Waldersee a german field marshal said, anyone claimed to be innocent and that others did atrocities while all were involved. Therefore I would not bet too much about americans behavior..

          • Insomnicide

            I’ve already specified that is the western colonial powers which attacked China. I never once said that is this the fault of all ‘white’ people or anything along those lines, and I’ve already clarified twice.

            As for the Americans behaving better than others, some first hand accounts from the period state the Americans restrained themselves from the raping and murdering, some American marines even tried to stop the other armies from committing atrocities. Now that may or may not be Americans trying to whitewash and justify their involvement in the invasion but it is a fact that America did not pursue an active intrusion into Chinese affairs and held a significantly less aggressive/hostile stance towards China in comparison with the other western powers.

            There are commonly references to the French, Russians and Germans being the most involved in the atrocities. Perhaps it’s other nations trying to push all the blame onto them, but they had stationed a high number of troops in China and they were very loosely disciplined and controlled so it’s not unlikely.

        • Mighty曹

          It’s just not fair to dwell on the negative events in the early stage of history to overlook all the positive transformations that have taken place since.

          • whuddyasack

            Couldn’t agree more. It’s short-sighted and makes said person look vengeful and unreasonable.

          • Mighty曹

            By holding a grudge a person is only placing the hardship upon himself. Forgive but not necessarily forget he can relieve that burden and move on to greater things. (I sound so philosophical). :D

          • whuddyasack

            That’s what I was thinking. Soooo deep bro.

          • Mighty曹

            Unfortunately, I learned this the hard way from personal experience. But it’s for the better, Bro.

          • whuddyasack

            That’s good to hear. Fortunately, I’ve never been in an experience where I was forced to forgive someone in particular. Or maybe I’m lying to myself. Maybe I don’t really know what a grudge is. I’d typically try to stay away from those I’m not too fond of ;-)

            As a side note, It would be nice if disqus allowed private messaging.

          • Mighty曹

            Good for you to not have to go through that phase. Looks like you choose wisely to stay away from ‘trouble’. haha..

            Yeah, Disqus is seriously lacking that feature. menk27@gmail

          • whuddyasack

            I always do. I have some innate street wisdom. ;-)

            Thanks Mighty. I’ve recorded that email address. Feel free to edit/delete it from this blog now. Cheers.

          • Mighty曹

            Awesome! Street wisdom has helped me overcome many adversities keeps me from getting scammed. LOL!

          • whuddyasack

            Haha yeah it’s awesome. I’m not sure why but it comes naturally for me. I think I must’ve inherited some survival skills from my grandmother. I figured if there was one thing she’d pass down to me, this would be it ;-)

            My survival senses are tingling. Watch out for spammers. Sowution viz raymovink email link!!

            Yeah, but thanks for that and sorry for getting you into trouble by making you post it.

          • Mighty曹

            Sounds like you got an awesome cool grandma. Mine were too down to earth and trusting. Not good.

          • whuddyasack

            I only wished I knew her better. She was awesome yet her only flaw was that she left this world too soon. If there is anything non-renewable on Earth, it has to be good people.

          • Mighty曹

            Awww…. :(

          • whuddyasack

            It’s OK my friend. She’s in Heaven now, the place where good people go ;0

          • Mighty曹

            I love my grand parents too. They never got angry at me. lol Yeah, they’re all in the better place where good people go.

    • Probotector

      Yeah, there’s certainly more personal freedom in China to go about your business than in the UK, one of the reasons I left actually. You can be arrested for anything over there these days, including dropping your garbage, swearing and my personal favourite, witnessing an arrest.

    • whuddyasack

      Do you have no racial / cultural pride? I would understand having close ties with Britain but going back to British rule is kind of an insult to
      your ethnicity.

      Unfortunately, that is the root of the problem. This issue isn’t just specific to the Hongers, Chinese in general are not nearly as race-focused and tribalistic as the ooga-boogas of this world. Many were taught from an early age not to treat the other differently, and that’s why you have very few deragatory terms in Chinese focusing on the differences of that other.

      Other races choose to flaunt and boast about their race to those that are indifferent, they obsessively pretend to be this “superior” being when they are anything but, often reacting with uncivilized violence to prove a moot point. An emphasis on race explains the clannishness of the European, African, Muslim expats, especially the latter who refuse to mingle with your typical natives, refuse to learn the native language but seek to form enclaves wherever they go.

      The end result is that more passive and civilized people (i.e. the Chinese) get taken advantaged of no matter where they are. The result is people like these activists thinking those who have been historically brutal towards them and would cowardly leave them to fend for themselves (ref. embarrassing defeat and fleeing of British and Canadian forces) to save their own skin. Instead people who would never see or treat them as equal are considered heroes by many. These activists are wearing the rose-colored glasses of rose-colored glasses.

      • Shepard

        Pretty sure I’ve seen plenty of Chinese refuse to mingle with Americans (as well as Koreans, Arabs, Mexicans, and every other nationality).

    • Dick Leigh

      This is the most racist comment I’ve read on this website. o_O

  • RothschildIsMoney

    Like one of the commenter said, they can return to Britain as they wish, but in reality HK is part of China. Those people can whining all they want, but nothing will change if they think HK under Britain’s rule is the solution. At the end of the day, HK’s economy depends on China, and that will be the final say on all matters. Ultimately, HK people need China to put food on their table. They just, understandably, venting a strawman anger.

    • BigpimpingBalla

      exactly, chinese gov’t got hong kong on lock

    • Vox-Populi

      They thought the British would be nicer and give people more freedom to those Hong Kongers. But we will never know the ulterior motive of UK.

      • carlstar

        and non will ever know the ulterior motive of the ccp.
        Wanting to leave China and go back to the UK isn’t about the physical act of doing so. They want their freedoms and rights, be they under another nation or independently. If China let HK do as they wanted then HK would be a lot happier but of course we can’t have that. Someone might say something that someone else doesn’t like.

        • nita

          Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about? What “freedoms and rights” did HK get when it was ruled by British law and leaders that Britain appointed, and HK could choose neither the law nor the leaders for itself democratically?

          If HK wanted independence from China, I would totally be for that. But wanting another country half a world away to rule over them is just pathetic.

          • moeimoei

            couldn’t said it better myself…UK flag waving, playing UK national anthem really made me threw up in my mouth…especially someone who celebrates July 4 whole heartedly…

          • Rick in China

            I’d say you’re the one who has no idea what you’re talking about. HK is routinely one of the most free places on earth (both economically and as far as individual freedoms), and that development was under rule as a British colony. Do you know anyone from HK? Have you ever been to HK? Do you really want a list of “freedoms” in HK as measured by freedom index metrics? I’m guessing the answer to these questions is No, No, and No, in which case I’d hope you stfu.

            The point of these protests is not to say “we want to be under the rule of XYZ”, it’s to say, “we were happier then, didn’t feel like our way of ilfe was under threat by the leadership”. Obviously independence is ideal. HK became great under UK rule. The argument now is not “give us new masters” as you imply, but “stop fucking changing shit or we’ll fight to return to how it was.” Get it? *sigh*

          • nita

            Actually, you need to STFU because you’re talking out of your ass. Being able to decide the laws that govern you and the people that govern you are the essence of freedom and democracy. Every other “freedom” is illusory if there is no democracy. Why do you think so many former British colonies wanted independence? Hard to believe that in this day and age, there are still people trying to justify colonialism and think no democracy is A okay.

            It does not matter that China is worse (which it absolutely is). Doesn’t change the fact that trying to defend and justify colonialism is disgusting and an insult to all those who have suffered under colonialism throughout the centuries.

          • Rick in China

            Chidlish. Learn to read. Read some history. GO THERE. Do something beyond projecting phrases like “talking out of your ass”, which you’re clearly doing.

            Historically, since 1946, Britain began decolonisation. Hong Kong gained more and more freedom over the next 50 years. In 1990, in preparation for the handover, the Hong Kong basic law was enacted to *ensure* freedom of the people was maintained when joining the PRC. Basically Britain wanted to ensure HK citizens would maintain their progressive reforms, equality, freedoms, and ultimately lead towards self governing after being transitioned into the PRC’s ‘control’. Since 1997, FREEDOMS in HK have deteriorated not increased, and PRC continues to scheme to undermine HK’s independence. People are crying out for a return to colonial rule not because “they want a ruler”, but the UK was, for that 50 years, granting freedoms and progressive reform enabling the people to be able to ultimately self-govern. Many ex-british colonies are ATOP the freedom index charts. Canada only fully became legally free from Britain in like, the early 80s. It wasn’t exactly ‘under the thumb’ of GB previous to that. You have no fuckin idea what ou’re talking about, no facts to back up your points, and I maintain my guess that you have never been to or investigated Hong Kong to a point that you’re worth any more text, so I’ll leave you with this:

            IT DOES MATTER THAT CHINA IS WORSE. It went from progressing towards independence (as all of Britain’s ex colonies, since the 1946 decolonisation agreement), because rather than progressing in the RIGHT direction, they’re now deteriorating in the WRONG direction.

          • nita

            Take your own advice and learn to read before speaking because you sound dumb as hell. Or maybe this is is just a Gish Gallop attempt, because the amount of lies you have just spewed is amazing.

            Do you have any idea how condescending you sound? How AWESOME for the colonists that the UK started “giving” them more freedoms? They should be so grateful for being given these freedoms from their colonial rulers!

            Freedom is AN INALIENABLE RIGHT. So is the right to self-determination. These freedoms ARE NOT FOR ANYONE TO “GIVE” ANOTHER.

            Another feeble attempt to justify colonialism. The UK did not suddenly “give” ex-colonies their independence out of the goodness of their hearts. Nice attempt at re-writing history there. Ex-colonies got their independence because they fought for it and demanded it.

          • Rick in China

            Cite a single fact or any historical knowledge in relation to the discussion – cite any understanding of Hong Kong whatsoever, and your RHETORIC may have some credence, until then – it’s just drivel from a drivelous netard.

          • nita

            You have no argument except to call the concepts of inalienable rights and self determination “drivel.” Keep arguing that people did not fight and die for their independence, and that it was instead their colonial rulers who were so magnanimous as to “shepherd” and “guide” these ignorant people toward the ways of self governance. Keep arguing that. Truly disgusting.

            I love how you use Canada as an example of the glories of colonialism, while conveniently leaving out the suffering, destruction and exploitation left in the wake of colonialism in Africa, Latin America, and Asia. I have no time nor desire to give you “historical facts” about these things; if you don’t know about them, then you truly are an ignorant dumbass.

          • Rick in China

            I cite historical fact and evidence. You spout rhetoric, again and again, and again. Please, like I said in the last post, SHOW SOME SEMBLANCE OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HK, even just fuckin wikipedia it FFS, you obviously know nothing about the area, so you try to lay insults as a fall back plan. Useless for me to continue this conversation.

          • nita

            What are your “historical facts” supposed to prove exactly? That HK should be grateful for the UK annexing them in the mid 1800s to further the opium trade, and over a century later (in 1990, as you so proudly state lol), UK decided to allow HK to vote for a small number of its government positions. LOL. Yes, the generosity of colonialism is truly awe-inspiring.

          • Rick in China

            “What are your “historical facts” supposed to prove exactly?”

            Proof that any further argument with you would be pointless. Done.

          • nita

            Proof that you have no argument. Of course you’re done.

          • Alex Dương

            He was trying to argue that a colony where the people had no right to elect their leaders was a bastion of freedom. George Orwell would’ve been proud of his doublespeak.

            Was British Hong Kong freer (relative) than the PRC from 1949 to 1997? Yeah, of course. But was it free (absolute)? It had and still has substantial economic freedom, but its people never had universal suffrage under the Crown.

          • Zappa Frank

            True, but at the end of the game chinese people were by far more free in HK than in China.. Of course HK has never been an example of freedom, but i guess the chiense people there were really happy and lucky to have had a limited freedom i/o no freedom at all.. Than, yes, in the end HK and its people were lucky to be a colony.

          • Alex Dương

            Yes, as I said, it is obvious that British Hong Kong was freer (relative) than the PRC from 1949 to 1997 in terms of both economic and political freedom. I don’t think anyone here really disagrees with that.

            The issue is that Rick has been aggressively arguing that British Hong Kong was free (absolute). That is just absurd. A colony is by definition not free. He actually knows this; he’s just too arrogant to admit that his argument is crap.

          • BiffyClanger

            “Freedom is AN INALIENABLE RIGHT”

            No its not. It is a product of a particular economic and social order unleashed by industrial revolution and high levels of urbanisation. 99% of human history and about 60%-70% of the world’s current population don’t enjoy that ‘right’.

          • Probotector

            Freedom is derived from a human being’s ability to think independently, making their own choices and determining their own destiny, the so called ‘free will’. This is inherent in our biological make up, it has nothing to do with the industrial revolution or urbanisation. There have been many attempts to improve individual people’s rights and freedoms over the centuries, long before industrialisation and urbanisation ever took place.

            The antithesis of freedom is oppression, and this is derived from certain people’s desire to dominate over others, but it’s not part of human nature. This is the reason that “99% of human history and about 60%-70% of the world’s current population don’t enjoy that ‘right'”.

          • BiffyClanger

            Actually so called ‘free will’ has always been determined by evolution of culture and politics. One cannot be absolutely free and it is the interplay of those parameters that defines what we mean by freedom. It still stands that our ability to maintain what we now popularly regard as freedoms such as right to property, freedom from certain forms of oppression are the result of massive amount of wealth created by the Industrial revolution and Urbanisation and it is the distribution and ownership of this wealth, otherwise can be conceived as a build up of individual’s potential to modify the material process around us that gives us political agency to resist larger institutions that is the bedrock of our so called ‘freedom’. It just so happens that 99% of human history and 60-70% of the world today do not own enough wealth to enable individuals to acquire enough agency to become stakeholders in this market economy based on consumerism.

          • nita

            Just because they don’t enjoy that right currently doesn’t mean they don’t have that right.

          • Teacher in China

            Nice one Rick. Very well put. If I were in HK now as a citizen, I’d be worried for sure, especially considering all the roughing up of people from the “free” press have been getting. Seems like the writing is on the wall there… deteriorating, indeed…

          • Alex Dương

            Hong Kong was, and still is, one of the freest economies in the world, if not the freest. But to call a colony where the people had no right to vote for their leaders and representatives a bastion of “individual freedom” is a joke.

          • Rick in China

            Hong Kong has had elections for decades – just not at the senior appointed official level. Hong Kong has had democratic principals in the governorSHIP of HK, with direct elections starting in 1990, and as far as the metrics used in measuring individual freedom by any think tank that puts effort in that area of study, HK has indeed been a bastion of personal freedom, especially in relation to so many other nations – including the PRC. It’s not a joke, Alex, it’s a fact, and I’d expect you to do some research before you spout broad claims without any evidence to back them up.

          • Alex Dương

            “Just not at the senior appointed official level.” OK, then, thanks for confirming my point: universal suffrage did not exist in British Hong Kong.

          • Rick in China

            Rather than cobble together any reasonable reply to the real point – individual freedoms and their existence / progressions under British colonialism over decades, cling to the last little string of an argument you can make. Atta’boy.

          • Alex Dương

            Oh, the irony: you’re talking up how great British colonial rule was in Hong Kong and dismissing universal suffrage as a “little string.” And you fancy yourself a champion of “freedom,” of course. The blind lead the blind, I suppose.

          • Rick in China

            I talk up the progressive reforms leading towards universal suffrage in Hong Kong, and dismiss your attempt to sway the argument off track by creating a litmus test as a means to determining freedoms in Hong Kong, rather than looking at individual freedom as a gradient by which many metrics can be used to determining more or less freedom. I dismiss your attempt to pick a molecule of salt out of the ocean and say “Look, obviously it’s not water.” Done with you.

          • Alex Dương

            Your replies are just anger-filled fluff because I dared to call you out on your absurd claim that a colony was a bastion of individual freedom.

            Did British Hong Kong allow greater personal freedom than the PRC did from 1949 to 1997? Yeah, of course. But considering how unfree the PRC was and still is, that hardly means that British Hong Kong was a model of personal freedom.

            It was a model of ECONOMIC freedom, yes, but personal freedom, no. But thanks for “discussing” with me. I had thought you had no interest ever since that time you pathetically tried to tell me that I shouldn’t refer to Akihito as an Emperor because Japan hasn’t been an Empire since 1945. I would’ve thought that a Canuck would know what a figurehead is, but I guess not.

          • cantonizi

            Yeah and some Afrikan countries became great under UK rule too.
            Blacks in the US like in 12 years a slave wanted to go back but they said no and now it’s the United States of Afrika and they love being ruled by a black pres.
            HKongers will never be happy again until the white master comes back so the HKongers can lick their behinds like good little dogs they are.

          • Dick Leigh

            Freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, the right to equality, the right to life, the presumption of innocence, the right to privacy, the right to join and organize labour movements, the right to vote, the right to own property and the right to no arbitrary arrest, detention, imprisonment, search or seizure.

            None of these rights or freedoms exist on the mainland.

          • cantonizi

            And the happiest man in the world lives on $1.00 dollar a day and owns a goat in a desert somewhere in the UAE, where there is non of what is on your list.
            And he has no rights that many in China has.

          • Dick Leigh

            Oh really? I’m gonna have to call you out on this and request some research from you because western democracies are routinely listed as being the happiest nations.

            Ever hear of Scandinavia? You know, the region where Sweden, Denmark and Norway are located. Guess what, all three are among the top 5 happiest countries (with Denmark #1 this year).

          • linette lee

            So move yourself back into China and stay there. It’s funny how much BS you spilling here and yet you yourself won’t even move back and stay inside China. You pussy. All talk and no action.

    • Joshua Justice

      what exactly does HK owe China for? most of the economic growth coming from mainland tourists are driven to name brand retail stores, thus producing only low wage jobs.

      • RothschildIsMoney

        More than half of HK imports/exports are with China. Think of it like this – how would the economy of New York City fare if it decided to estrange itself from the rest of the US?
        This is not 1960’s. China now has more leverage to HK than vice versa.

      • Insomnicide

        Even before the handover, water, food, electricity, manufactured goods all came to HK from mainland China.

    • BigCAD

      See Singapore for why your opinion matters little.

    • China_girlz_r_easy

      HK belongs to people of HK. The right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in international law.

      Just like the people of Scotland, Quebec, Tibet, Catalonia, Crimea, etc should have the right to choose their own sovereignty.

      • poop

        Nope. HK still belongs to China. (:

  • NightKnight

    The essence of HK’s success is the rule of law and free trade, not democracy, HK was fortunate enough led by some of the greatest libertarians including Sir John James Cowperthwaite.

    Inevitably democracy will end up askying for more welfare and that leads to less immigrants and more government intervention and regulations, which is the exactly opposite of what’s HK stand for, look at the recent regulation on baby formula, it’s simply because some of the HKers don’t want to pay more for something is high in demand, and the HK government is so chickenshit that can’t defend the true spirit of HK. for that matter, HK would be better off if it’s still governed by bad ass British libertarians.

    • Irvin

      I agree, if the HKers weren’t so short sighted and bare with it a few months the market will adapt itself and alot of money could have been made from selling baby formula to the mainland.

    • maybeabanana

      I agree with the economic flourishment when HK was some what self regulated and to that was what a bit of libertarianism can do. Given the current orwellian grips tightening further and further, I think it’s foolish to assume better rulings under the british govt, to spite their dislike towards the mainland. Censoring ” obscene” contents on the internetzzz is what HKers want? And to what Marcus Black had said, it seems like HKers are not paying attention or sweeping some shit under the rug.

      • Vox-Populi

        People are fooled into thinking that countries like UK and the US are the best, through films, media (careful selection of news regarding the state of the country), games, etc. Like these Hong Kongers.

        If they are exposed to the reality of these countries, they may change their mind.

        • maybeabanana

          Yip, the most valueble lessons history can teach us are the repeated cycles of debt, war and rise of the power that be to enslave and manipulate us exactly like the matrix. But noooo people like Matt below wants to say let history be bygone because it is the past. I think HKers are more openminded but are still hopped on a high of british love. They should take zee blinders off and learn them some real brutal history.

          • Vox-Populi

            Like a person said: those who failed to learn history are doomed to repeat it.

            Besides, it seems that Hong Kongers are not aware that UK can take advantage of Hong Kong to beat China, such as building military bases for further containment.

            If Hong Kongers are fine with that, I can consider them “Class A British-Wannabe Retards”.

          • maybeabanana

            the only insult i got is their love for soccer a by godly bs ouch im hurt sport to occupy their minds from world news

          • Vox-Populi

            Well, it’s nothing special. Everyone around the world are more interested in the news of a celebrity or sports (to be honest, whenever a news popped up regarding a celebrity, such as breakups, I just rolled my eyes up and said “who gives a shit?”) than the affair of the world.

            As a result, people grow more ignorant of their country and thus it’s easier to be controlled by the government.

            I’m not saying that you have to learn the affair of the country so much that you’ll go insane from it. Strike a balance between those two you know..

          • maybeabanana

            thats their magic at work. they know people are dipshits and adhd. ooo sparkly. look over here..op! now over there.
            “The love of material ease has been, in the mass of men and permanently speaking, always greater than the love of liberty. Nine hundred and ninety nine women out of a thousand are more interested in the cut of a dress than in the independence of their sex; nine hundred and ninety nine men out of a thousand are more interested in drinking a glass of beer than in questioning the tax that is laid on it; how many children are not willing to trade the liberty to play for the promise of a new cap or a new dress? That it is which begets the complicated mechanism of society; that it is which, by multiplying the concerns of government, multiplies the strength of government and the corresponding weakness of the people; this it is which begets indifference to public concern, thus making the corruption of government easy.
            As to the essence of Commerce and Manufacture, it is this: to establish bonds between every corner of the earths surface and every other corner, to multiply the needs of mankind, and the desire for material possession and enjoyment.”-voltairine

          • maybeabanana

            also both of my girlfriends choose to be ignorant of it.they have no interest whatsoever. one other one acknowlwedge the issue but dont want to think about it.

        • cantonizi

          Chinese New Yorkers spit on those Hong Kongers and hope they all go to the UK or OZ.
          HKers are lower than blacks here.

    • hailexiao

      Agreed. The problem with HK economy is that it isn’t libertarian enough, especially the real estate sector. The rent seeking oligarchs who own the real estate and the HK government wants to prevent new construction so rental costs are much higher than if development was free.

    • Joshua Justice

      is milk formula not more expensive because of mainlanders coming and buying everything? If the mainland wanted to do something about it, they would wipe out the taxes, then the prices would be the same in the mainland

  • bujiebuke

    Hong Kong has experienced an influx of migrant workers for hundreds of years. How can anyone legitimately claim that they have more of a right to live there over mainlanders? They have a very weak claim since they don’t have the ability to defend their sovereignty.

    Their yearning to go back to British rule, as opposed to complete secession to form an independent country is pathetic and backwards. I cannot image why anyone would want to go back to their “white master” in light of all the efforts made to decolonize Africa and parts of Asia and to end the oppression caused by apartheid.

    People in Hong Kong have squandered a great economic opportunity in capitalizing the demand for infant formula and other household goods. They have failed to make use of the incoming workforce to increase production, and instead kicking them away and calling them “locusts”. You have only yourselves and your xenophobic attitudes to blame for being short sided.

    • Irvin

      Like I said many times, they are selfish morons. I should know, I went to school with them, while some of them are antiquate in their academic achievements. Almost all of them lacks ideals and conviction. They are quite simple minded if you get to know them.

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        Simple minded?
        That is majority of the people in the world.

        • Alex Dương

          Would you include yourself in that? I mean, you’re the one who throws a hissy fit when the Chinese practice “colonialism” in their border regions, but when the Russians do the same, you matter-of-factly tell me that the regions where the Russians did that are supposed to be Russian.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            Did I say that? I think you mistaken what I said.

            And I would include myself and you in that. You really are a simple minded person trying to mascarade as if you aren’t.

          • Alex Dương

            I’m not the one upvoting garbage comments like “the Chinese can never be democratic; it’s in their genes.” You are. But if you want to include us both in your characterization, fine.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            I upvote a lot of comments, I even upvote some comments which I partly agree with. That would be one of them.

            I would prefer to see downvotes too. So I am not happy about Discuss removing that. Pointless really haveing a downvote option then if it is kept private.

            But the Mainland Chinese, as they are, cannot be democratic. It isn’t a genes thing. I’d put it down to culture amongst other things. I’d say the same about other parts of the world too. We see it in the Arab world. I would say even India, Pakistan and Bangladesh suffer to an extent, even though they are ‘democracies’.

            Anyway, you don’t seem to think yourself as a simple minded. Do you want to say why you think you aren’t?

          • Alex Dương

            Well, then, no wonder you are supporting these activists: you think some cultures are incompatible with democracy. I think that’s sad, but if that’s your opinion, so be it.

            I am simple minded but not in the same way that you are. I try to be consistent in my views, and that isn’t necessarily always a good thing: as Thoreau said, “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

            You, on the other hand, are too anti-Chinese in your views. This has the result of you not being able to see the bigger picture. You think that Crimea is a model for Xinjiang and Tibet, and you’re right, but for the wrong reason: all China has to do is keep encouraging Han migration to those regions. Then, if and when they are majority Han, people like you can only say, “You need to look who makes up most of Xinjiang. They are majority Mandarin speakers.”

            In the context of China and democracy, again, your anti-Chinese views blind you. Taiwan is 98% ethnically Chinese. It has had five free Presidential elections since 1996. Taiwanese culture is not the same as mainland Chinese culture, but at the same time, there is a large overlap. So if Chinese culture is so incompatible with democracy, then it would seem to be a puzzle why Taiwan successfully democratized.

            In short, your prejudice makes you simple minded.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            You think I am anti-Chinese?

            Again, you really are more simple minded than you think. If you said anti-CCP, then yeah, you would have been correct.

            I never said or thought Crimea is a model for Xinjiang and Tibet. That is something you have jumped to.

            In the context of China, you said my Anti-Chinese blinds me (no mention of anti-Arab, or Anti-Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi there) and then you go on to talk about Taiwan. They are enthnically Chinese, yes. But they are not Mainland China. They have a different enducation system, different governing systems, land size, allies, idealogies, etc. I did say culture amongst other things, so sure they share festivals, supersitions, and the culture would be similar (you could say 95%) but also there are differences. Again, it would be like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. These 3 were one nation, they share a culture but there are differences. We can see the similarities very easily. But people on the inside can see their differences more clearly.

            So, Alex, you can throw the anti-Chinese insult at me, but the only truth is you are the one who is PRO-Chinese and blind to everything else. You see things that aren’t there in people’s word. You can see from the reply just now how you have taken what I said out of context to fit your narative.

            In short, you calling me anti-Chinese would be me saying you are a wumao. All your posts are Pro-China and insupport of the Chinese Government, the CCP. So you are PRO-CCP China.

          • Alex Dương

            Don’t hide your anti-Chinese prejudice with an excuse like “I am anti-CCP.” If you think that the mainland Chinese can “never” be democratic for whatever “reason,” you can’t claim to just be “anti-CCP.” You’re anti-Chinese.

            And it’s really funny that you ask me why I didn’t talk about your comments toward Arabs and South Asians. What did you want me to say that I didn’t already say? It’s no wonder you support these activists: like them, you want to be ruled by foreigners instead of ruling yourself. And seriously, are you trying to cover your prejudice by being MORE prejudiced? That’s…sad, to say the least.

            If you think I’m “pro-PRC,” then you don’t read my comments, just like “Yes!” I said these activists should be pushing for self-rule. You deliberately chose to misinterpret that as “these activists should submit to Beijing.” If you have an anti-Chinese agenda, hey, that’s your right. And it’s my right to call you out on it.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            I have mentioned this before. You have taken my words to fit your narative.

            You said:
            “Don’t hide your anti-Chinese prejudice with an excuse like “I am anti-CCP.” If you think that the mainland Chinese can “never” be democratic for whatever “reason,” you can’t claim to just be “anti-CCP.” You’re anti-Chinese.”

            I said:
            “the Mainland Chinese, as they are, cannot be democratic. It isn’t a genes thing. I’d put it down to culture amongst other things.”

            Question:
            Where did I say ‘the mainland Chinese can “never” be democratic’?

            You said:
            “And it’s really funny that you ask me why I didn’t talk about your comments toward Arabs and South Asians. What did you want me to say that I didn’t already say? It’s no wonder you support these activists: like them, you want to be ruled by foreigners instead of ruling yourself. And seriously, are you trying to cover your prejudice by being MORE prejudiced? That’s…sad, to say the least.”

            I said:
            “In the context of China, you said my Anti-Chinese blinds me (no mention of anti-Arab, or Anti-Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi there) and then you go on to talk about Taiwan.”

            I picked up on you accusing me of being anti-Chinese as it suits your narrative or agenda. But you conveiently left out the others as they didn’t. Now you are saying I am trying to cover it by being more prejudice to again suit your narrative and angenda.

            You said:
            “If you think I’m “pro-PRC,” then you don’t read my comments, just like “Yes!” I said these activists should be pushing for self-rule. You deliberately chose to misinterpret that as “these activists should submit to Beijing.” If you have an anti-Chinese agenda, hey, that’s your right. And it’s my right to call you out on it.”

            Well you are pro-China. You deliberatly missed anything that is anti-antyhing else to suit your agenda of calling me anti-Chinese. Then I have picked up on it, you try to play tricks. You claim I have ‘deliberately chose to misinterpret’ things, I have not. But you have with my words. They are here and people can decide for themselves. And if you think I have an anti-Chinese agenda, you can call me out on it. I can all bullshit on it too. As that is what it is. I am anti-CCP. I admit that. You can’t even admit to your pro-China bias.

            You see them asking for return to Brits rule as an insult. Others have called them slaves (you have too) or in your own words “What they did is quite sad and pathetic” or “they just want a different master” (basically calling them slaves). They do have the right to call for what they want or demonstrate in the streets. That is their ‘freedom’, which if China has its way (China as in CCP, the government) then those ‘freedoms’ will be gone by the time HK does fully integrate into China.

          • Alex Dương

            Oh, this game – you must use my exact words; if you don’t, then that is not what I said. I won’t play that game, Boris. You agreed with a garbage comment that said the Chinese can never be democratic because it’s in their “genes.” When called out on that, you backtracked a bit but continued to in effect say, “it isn’t the genes, but overall, he’s right.” And you claim this isn’t anti-Chinese. Nonsense.

            Yes, I am saying that you are covering your prejudice by being even more prejudiced. And I am also saying that is pretty damn sad, especially since you in effect also said, “see, I’m not prejudiced; I’ll even say the same thing about South Asia.”

            I can actually respect those angry Mongolian commenters in the other article because they don’t mince their words: they outright say that they hate China and Chinese people. You try to cover your prejudice by using the “I am anti-CCP” excuse and by appealing to your other prejudices, which is pathetic.

            But you’re right about one thing, though, Boris: I am pro-China, not pro-CCP. It says a lot that you define yourself first as “anti-CCP” and me as “pro-China.” It means you don’t see these as equivalent, and combined with your opinion that the mainland Chinese can’t be democratic, it proves my point: you are anti-Chinese. That’s your choice and your right.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            “Oh, this game – you must use my exact words; if you don’t, then that is not what I said. I won’t play that game, Boris.” – Fine. Use my words out of context or to suit you agenda.

            “You agreed with a garbage comment that said the Chinese can never be democratic because it’s in their “genes.”” – Fine. I did upvote it. I made a mistake in upvoting a comment I didn’t agree with 100% and I explained what I do. I do upvote comments I partly agree with. It’s up to you to accept it or not. You claim I am trying to cover by being more prejudices. If I told you my background, it may astonish you. But that would be irrelevent, there really cannot be trust online as we will never meet in person. For all I know, you could be working for the CCP or be the so called Wumao I have heard so much about.

            “But you’re right about one thing, though, Boris: I am pro-China, not pro-CCP. It says a lot that you define yourself first as “anti-CCP” and me as “pro-China.”” – Pro-China would be the same as Pro-Chinese government. Pro-Chinese would be a different thing, I did make sure to use Pro-China than Pro-Chinese. I thought you, who doesn’t think he is simple minded would know that. Obviously, I need to be more word specific. You are Pro-CCP. You can try to deny it, but thats what you are. But then you are the one who said who will not use my exact words and what are you doing here? Typical, one rule for you and another for me.

            Btw, I’m not the one mistaking Taiwanese (or Taiwan Chinese, if you prefer) people for Mainland China Chinese people. I am not the one calling HK people who prefered Brit rule to CCP rule slaves. You are. You are the one who has done those. You called Chinese people (by your definention) slaves.

            Again, good try. I’ll be more specific this time. You are Pro-China CCP commenter on here. That can easily be seen from your set of comments in ChinaSmack.

          • Alex Dương

            If I told you my background, it may astonish you.

            I think you said elsewhere that you have South Asian ancestry. That is why I said it’s sad that you feel that South Asia is also incompatible with democracy, but it isn’t surprising that you agree with these activists. You literally feel exactly the way they do. It’s no wonder that when Kate called them pathetic, you felt personally offended and called her a “fucking idiot.” It was as if she had called you pathetic.

            Pro-China would be the same as Pro-Chinese government.

            OK, this is a pretty terrible excuse. If you wanted to call me “pro-Chinese government,” you should’ve called me “pro-CCP” instead of “pro-China.” After all, your excuse is that you are just “anti-CCP.” Why not call me the opposite of you?

            That you didn’t suggests that you rightly separated “pro-China” from “pro-CCP.” You only conflate the two now because you realize that your attempt at labeling me completely backfired on you and failed miserably.

            You will not find a single comment of mine that is pro-CCP. Not one. By contrast, I can find you upvoting total bullshit like “the Chinese can never be democratic because of their genes” and then watch you lamely try to excuse yourself with “I am just anti-CCP, not anti-Chinese.”

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            “OK, this is a pretty terrible excuse. If you wanted to call me “pro-Chinese government,” you should’ve called me “pro-CCP” instead of “pro-China.” After all, your excuse is that you are just “anti-CCP.” Why not call me the opposite of you?” – I don’t know how good your English is. It seems to be compentent enough. I thought you would understand me, epseically considering the context we were talking about (HKers being slaves or UK or China – relates to the governments). I guess, I do need to be extra specific with you. There has been no attempt to ‘conflate’ this. Again, good try.

            “You will not find a single comment of mine that is pro-CCP. Not one. By contrast, I can find you upvoting total bullshit like “the Chinese can never be democratic because of their genes” and then watch you lamely try to excuse yourself with “I am just anti-CCP, not anti-Chinese.”” – To be honest, I don’t follow people here. I reply to people. You found one comment I upvoted. I explained, so I will not repeat it.

            You called HKers slaves for wanting British rule over the CCP rule. You may have said independence would have been preferable, I don’t know. I don’t follow you. I do know that you called them slaves. I could say, that comment is in support of the CCP. So, that comment is Pro-CCP, if we play by your rules. So there is one.

            Anyway, I will counter your points when and if a new one arrises. IF not, then I will not respond on here. I think we have covered all the points.

            You say I am anti-Chinese.
            I say you are Pro-China (being Pro-Chinese Government, which is the CCP, so we are just being exact).

            If nothing else to add, thats it.

          • Alex Dương

            I don’t know how good your English is. It seems to be compentent enough.

            I’m American. English is my native language. You might be British, but trust me when I say this isn’t American arrogance: my command of English is vastly superior to yours.

            If you wanted to say I was pro-CCP, that’s what you should’ve said, especially since you claimed to be anti-CCP. This is called “parallelism.” Or did you forget that?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallelism_%28grammar%29

            But don’t worry, Boris; you got it right the first time. I am pro-China. Whereas you are desperately trying to pretend that you aren’t anti-Chinese, I have no shame in saying that I am pro-China.

            You may have said independence would have been preferable, I don’t know.

            I said that in a post that you replied to, remember?

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/hong-kong-activists-surround-last-british-governor-reactions.html#comment-1298215766

            And I didn’t just say it to you; I’ve said it repeatedly, as in at least five times. If you think submission to the U.K. is preferable to independence, you are free to think that. But you are not free to pretend that I didn’t say independence is preferable and then even more dishonestly, try to claim that this signals pro-CCP sentiment.

            I do know that you called them slaves. I could say, that comment is in support of the CCP.

            Saying that these activists have a slave mentality because they are asking to be ruled by the British instead of ruling themselves is in support of the CCP. Right. I suppose you also want to tell me 2+2=5?

            If this is the best you can come up with, I hope you have the decency to retract your claim. I doubt it, but please feel free to surprise me!

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            “I’m American. English is my native language. You might be British, but trust me when I say this isn’t American arrogance: my command of English is vastly superior to yours.” –

            “If you wanted to say I was pro-CCP, that’s what you should’ve said, especially since you claimed to be anti-CCP. This is called “parallelism.” Or did you forget that?” –

            Your English well may be superior to mine. I assume you, with such superior knowledge would have known Pro-China in a context of who the HKers would want to ‘rule’ them would realise it. But no, and yet you still want to carry on with this charade.

            Again, if you are no longer going to bring up a new point, I will not carry on going over the same thing.

            “Saying that these activists have a slave mentality because they are asking to be ruled by the British instead of ruling themselves is in support of the CCP. Right. I suppose you also want to tell me 2+2=5?” –

            Did you, in ALL your posts distinguish between normal HKers and protesters?

            Your comment about Independence “It’s extremely pathetic. If they had any self-esteem, they’d be pushing for independence, not voluntary submission to colonialism.” You’ll notice I said “We have to disagree then.” Do you know which part I disagree with? Let me tell you, this bit “It’s extremely pathetic.” I didn’t even expand my comment on it, but I guess you think I disagree with all of it. But like I said, I don’t follow you. I have responded to before to you, doesn’t mean I follow you. I’ve responded to plenty of people before.

            Also, you did know that China pretty much said (or I should rephrase that and say their leader at the time when UK and China started talking about HK in the 80s) ‘I could just walk in there and take it over.’ China didn’t even want the Governor (I think it was) of HK to participate in the talks. I assume you did know this. I’ve mentioned in other posts, asking for Independence or return to Brit rule is unlikely (if not impossible) so even I know that doing this is more of a show of visual displeasure than anything else. I am pretty sure they know asking for Independence would be pretty much useless with no way of protecting themselves. It is why I don’t find their protest or them asking for return to Brit rule pathetic. But you do.

            Pretty much, well try in trying to paint me as anti-Chinese. Or prejudice. Doesn’t really matter. I just think these people have the right to show their displeasure instead of being called pathetic by the likes of you.

            “If this is the best you can come up with, I hope you have the decency to retract your claim. I doubt it, but please feel free to surprise me!” –

            I’ll retract the comment of calling you Pro-CCP when you have the decency to appologise for calling me anti-Chinese (which in my eyes is the same as calling me racist). I doub’t you will.

            Anyway, Alex. I will not reply to another post along this comment thread. I am done with you.

          • Alex Dương

            Did you, in ALL your posts distinguish between normal HKers and protesters?

            Yes, I did. Again, by contrast, you lumped all mainland Chinese together when you agreed that they cannot be democratic. It seems you are just angry that I caught you red handed being prejudiced against Chinese whereas you are flailing with all your might to try to prove that I’m pro-CCP but coming up empty handed. Too bad, Boris.

            No surprises, then. You had a chance to call me pro-CCP from the start; you blew it and called me pro-China instead, thinking that was an insult. It isn’t. You realized that but too late, so now you’re desperately trying to argue that pro-China is the same as pro-CCP. It isn’t. I’m much more anti-CCP than you are, and unlike you, I have no anti-Chinese prejudice. Better luck next time, sahib.

            PS: One last thing. Use your brain for just one moment, please. What would a pro-CCP person actually say if he read a comment like “the Chinese can never be democratic”? Why would he point to the ROC’s 1996 Presidential Election? Why wouldn’t he instead say something like, “you’re right; we don’t want your ‘democracy’!”

            Hey, if you’re upset that I rightly called you anti-Chinese, maybe you need to look within yourself first.

          • Zappa Frank

            maybe you are talking about me… I don’t have any other words to say about it, I guess if you don’t understand the difference is because you simply don’t want to..

          • Alex Dương

            No, you and Boris expressed similar sentiments. One can oppose what China is doing in Xinjiang. One can also support what Russia did in Crimea. Supporting both, however, is not internally consistent.

          • Zappa Frank

            Where did I ever said I support what Russian did in Crimea expelling all tartars?

          • Alex Dương

            You said you opposed that, but then you also said “that is in the past. Now, in the present, the Russians are the majority.” Thus, while you condemn the past to appease your conscience, you condone the present, which occurred because of the past. This is what I found to be inconsistent.

            We disagree. No problem. What’s your opinion of these activists?

          • Zappa Frank

            According to what i’ve read tartars were also slave merchants, and used to sell russian people to the ottomans. would you blame them for the invasion? May i ask you if you think tartars as Asians people, east Asians like mongols? because they were not according to pictures for the old war of crimea..
            about activists I think they are scared about what can happen to them in future, they don’t want to be slave of England, and if my memory is correct in the beginning most of Chinese in HK approved the idea to back to china, or better, do not be a colony anymore, however in recent time we cannot say that England ruled over them and I think they are scared to lose autonomy and privileges .. Somehow is a normal fear of changes.

          • Alex Dương

            Tatars aren’t East Asians like Mongols. They’re a Turkic people like Kazakhs and Uzbeks. And slavery used to be common in the past; that hardly justifies anything to do with the Crimean Tatars. In a nutshell, my reading of many comments in that Chinasmack article (including yours) was that many supported the referendum in Crimea because they saw it as a model for Xinjiang, Tibet, and so forth. I don’t think these people realized that it is a model but in a bad way: if you want to “legitimize” your rule over a region, just flood that region with your majority ethnic group.

            I agree that the activism shown here is mostly a fear-driven response to uncertainty. My opinion is that it is better to push for self-rule than voluntary subjugation. This has nothing to do with race; I did not say Hongkongers should only elect Chinese Hongkongers. But they should elect a Hongkonger, not beg to be ruled by London.

  • Irvin

    And thinking to himself: “yeah… they’re my bitches”

  • Irvin

    More in line of selfish morons. The brits will never take back HK and they’re too dumb to adapt and make better of their new situation.

    • Vox-Populi

      I bet many Brits will be confused by these protesters.

      Basically, they wanted to go back to a country whose economy is already failing instead of remaining with China, whose economy is colossal, and growing (albeit slowing down).

      They throw away their logics and reasonable thoughts away for the sake of “identity”. Hell, even if they’re part of Britain, people will still refer Hong Kongers as Chinese, like it or not.

  • Irvin

    They’re just frustrated and don’t know any better.

    • Vox-Populi

      When China becomes a democracy, they will surely shut up.

      • Yes!

        China will never become a democracy. It’s in the Chinese genes, having been under autocracies or dictators since 5000 years ago.

        • Alex Dương
        • Kate

          In that case, HK shouldn’t be demanding freedom and democracy since their genetics dictate they are incapable of having such a society (in case you didn’t know, more than 90% of HKers are Han Chinese)

        • whuddyasack

          The genetic argument hahahaha. Autocracies and dictators as well as certain deeds/actions aren’t determined by genetics the way genetics determine that a White or Black person smells a whole lot worse than Chinese/Asians in the same environment. There are no “apocrine glands” to verify your statement.

        • Kai

          …which was pretty much true of all the ancestors of people in democracies now. If things could change for them, why not the Chinese?

        • Insomnicide

          Just like how it’s in the genes of western Europeans to enslave other races or in the genes of Germanics to conduct genocide?

      • Irvin

        There’s more than one way to govern ourselves, democracy isn’t always the answer and certainly not the most efficient, if it was then companies and the military would’ve adopted a democratic system to run it.

  • Are Argentinians traitors to Spain?

    • Alex Dương

      Yes. But at least their forebears fought for independence. In this case, the Hong Kong activists in question are nostalgically pining for colonial rule. For all the faults of the PRC and its management of Hong Kong post-1997, pining for colonial rule as opposed to pushing for independence isn’t even treachery; it’s just submission.

      I think Lee Kuan Yew once said something to the effect of, “the British never gave me democracy.” They never gave Hongkongers democracy either.

      • I just don’t see how being governed by the UK is any more submissive than being governed by the PRC, especially when UK society generally permits greater individual freedom than PRC society . Maybe it’s just because I’m multiracial and I don’t give a damn what race my government is, but I guess you would sympathize with white Americans who hate the fact that their president is black.

        • Alex Dương

          The U.K.’s faults do not change that personal freedom there is greater than it is in the PRC. But there is a huge sense of irony in extolling personal freedom in the U.K. when we are talking about COLONIAL RULE.

          Also, I don’t see how some white Americans disliking President Obama because he’s half-black has anything to do with my point.

          • I’m not sure by what basis other than race could consensual UK governance be considered “colonialism” and imposed PRC governance not.

            I think most Hong Kongers would ideally prefer British-style civil society and legal institutions while maintaining independence ala Singapore. In this regard, they are no different from Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Sri Lanka, Andorra, San Marino, and countless other tiny countries that insist on remaining distinct from their culturally and racially similar neighbors.

          • Alex Dương

            Consensual UK governance, wow, that is quite a euphemism for “I want to be ruled by foreigners instead of electing my fellow citizens to be my executive leader and legislative representatives.”

            “I think most Hong Kongers would ideally prefer British-style civil society and legal institutions while maintaining independence ala Singapore.”

            Then maybe these Hong Kong activists should be pushing for that instead of pining for the “good ol’ days” of British colonial rule, where they were not independent and of course still had no democracy, don’t you think?

          • What you don’t seem to get is that to Hong Kongers, the Beijingers ARE foreigners. Sure, they’re not as foreign the British, but by your logic, the Portuguese should consent to being ruled by the French, and the Dutch should consent to being ruled by the Germans. Hell, if the Vietnamese still used chữ nôm and if tiếng Việt were part of the Sino-Tibetan family, then maybe you’d argue that the Vietnamese shouldn’t object to being ruled by the PRC. It’s already well known that southern Chinese share about as much if not more in common genetically with the northern Vietnamese than their northern countrymen anyway, so it’s not as far of a stretch as you might think.

            From here in Southern California, those on the other side of the continent in Washington D.C. may as well be foreigners. I frankly would rather be governed as part of Singapore or Norway. Does that make me a traitor? Maybe, but I’ve never liked the idea of nationalism anyway, so maybe that explains the disconnect.

          • Alex Dương

            What you don’t seem to get is that when I said one of their “fellow citizens,” I was referring to other Hongkongers, not mainlanders. I don’t see how my logic at all leads to the conclusion that the Portuguese should be ruled by the French. That seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. Quite frankly, I think you’re bad at analogies.

          • Yes!

            And of course, by “fellow citizens” you mean those handpicked by your Beijing masters, don’t you? What’s the diff then? At least Hongkongers get a better deal from other masters!

          • Alex Dương

            If you want to have a discussion with me, please don’t use straw mans. I meant exactly what I said: “I was referring to other Hongkongers, not mainlanders.” If you have an axe to grind, grind it somewhere else.

          • Yes!

            COLONIAL RULE is just a word. It’s probably better than being under CCP rule in every political, economic and social aspects.

          • Alex Dương

            Why are we always comparing British colonial rule to CCP oversight? This entire choice is wrongly framed.

      • Vox-Populi

        Yeah, I agree with you. Try asking Indians if they wanted to go back to the British rule. Many would say “HELL NO”.

        Besides, I believe that the majority wanted Hong Kong to be part of China. Perhaps they just don’t want to be rule by a communist government. If China becomes a democracy, Hong Kongers would surely stop this I-wanna-be-a-part-of-Britain protest. I believe Taiwanese people think like that too.

        • If Hong Kong and Taiwan could join up as one country, that would be pretty awesome. Add Macau and Singapore into the mix and you’ve got a kick-ass trillion-dollar economy nearly on par with South Korea.

  • Irvin

    Their ancestors will be turning in their grave since majority of them are from the mainland.

  • Wave_R1der

    I believe that they have a poor education in Chinese history.

    • Kay

      I believe they didn’t have that education. Even if they had they probably feel ashamed of it.

  • Vox-Populi

    These people should ask the Indians how good is the British rule in India..

    • carlstar

      India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are independent countries now. What is Hong Kong. Independent?

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        HK isn’t a independent country. You’d think people like Vox would know that.

    • Yes!

      Hongkongers had been under British rule once before, and after having tasted CCP rule since 1997, looks like they still prefer British rule. The verdict is in the pudding. So please don’t talk about Indians.

      • Alex Dương

        Yes, a couple of activists means a seven million Hongkongers “still prefer British rule.”

  • Vox-Populi

    Yeah. Like one netizen says: if you don’t like it, then GTFO to Britain..

  • Vox-Populi

    Yeah. They should just paint themselves white and make babies with the whites then. Otherwise, this is a huge insult to us Chinese.

    No matter how hard they tried to be a British, they will always be considered as Chinese.

  • Vox-Populi

    When China democratize, those Hong Kongers will surely shut up. But if they still want to be part of the UK, I will falcon punch them as a way to certify they are idiots.

  • Vox-Populi

    How about Guangdong?

  • Misiooo

    HK people are schizophrenic. They are civilized and Chinese at the same time.

  • Mighty曹

    Children feel more attached to and love their birthfather.

  • steviewah

    I love HK in so many ways, but it’s pathetic to be waving a colonial flag. The British never gave HK democracy with their over 100 years of rule and only controlled the land to open trade. I support HK in fighting for greater liberty, but never by asking to be ruled by another nation. Nobody respects followers.

    • Vox-Populi

      HK people didn’t realize that they could be taken advantage of when it is being held back to the UK..

      • Yes!

        Taken advantage of? In what aspect? Hongkong under British rule became the richest “country” in Asia (after Japan) for many years after WW2. It is only in very recent few years that Singapore overtook Hongkong. But Hongkong is still a financial powerhouse, a vibrant economy, with social development that is envied by many other countries. Li Ka Shing is the richest man in Asia, and he didn’t get there by collecting bribes.

    • Yes!

      Get off it. The Hongkongers lived a life with far greater social and economic freedom, far greater social, civil and economic progress and development than any Chinese who have ever lived on the mainland (except for your corrupt CCP high officials who of course enjoy greater wealth through no meritorious work but by being part of the network), and this is more than enough for the Hongkongers to appreciate being under British governance. To many people around the world, who rules do not matter. They all want the same social and economic freedoms and opportunities, a good progressive society with equal opportunities to enjoy a good quality of life for themselves and their next generation. China is a 20th century society steeped in a 5000 year culture with social norms of 5000 years ago. Heck, you have people taking poops on the street sidewalks and in trains, for heaven’s sake!

      And if your CCP government can implement a political, economic and social system like the British (or any other similar standard of government, not just British), then you will not hear any of your mainland or Hongkong comrades crying out to become citizens of other countries.

  • Insomnicide

    The Chinese ethnicity was born on the landmass known as China. If Hong Kongers are Chinese, then their parents or grandparents, etc. would have came to HK from the mainland China they despise so much. Rather than respect their roots, they seek to emulate and worship the foreign perfidious opportunistic colonialists who enslaved their ancestors, polluted their society with drugs and human trafficking and indoctrinated them to turn against their own kin.

    That’s just sad. These people are perpetually in denial over their own origins and discriminate zealously against their own kind who due to unfortunate circumstances are less wealthy than they are.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      Are they in denial?

      I don’t think they are. They do see that the CCP is a worse ‘master’ than their former ‘masters’.

  • Probotector

    Surely this isn’t about ownership of territory, but what’s best for the people that inhabit it.

  • carlstar

    These countries then didn’t get absorbed into another. HK gave up one for China. Lost freedoms and choice that they still want. Maybe they should be given a vote on independence. China supported that with Crimea so surely China doesn’t believe in double standards.

    • Alex Dương

      Actually, China supported “Ukrainian territorial integrity.”

      • carlstar

        That is twaddle. It has not condemned it because it wants to be friends with Russia. It is doing what we call fence sitting. Another words China in this situation it fails to do which ever side you want it to fail on. It has a veto in the UN. It can’t just do nothing, especially in a case that China always harps on about.

        • Alex Dương

          So did China support the Crimean referendum or did it sit on the fence? Because you can’t do both.

  • carlstar

    People ask for one thing but in China if you do that you are a traitor? Why does everyone in China have to love China no matter what? If there is no one to see things differently or want something else then there would be nothing and no progress. Why is change and desire for more or something different wrong in China?

    China comes across as the most fanatical place in the world and a fanatic is the most dangerous thing you can come across. Unwilling and unable to change and even unwilling and unable to think about it.

    • Probotector

      Because saving face trumps all other concerns.

    • Markus Peg

      Loving your country and loving your government are two separate things that the Chinese mix into one thing.

      • Insomnicide

        You mean non-Chinese mix into one thing. If any Chinese person claims to love their country, they’ll be hounded to death by non-Chinese as a brainwashed idiot or Wumao CCP drone.

    • Kai

      Way to misrepresent the situation.

      • carlstar

        How so? People are saying you are with us or against us.
        I read the article and i read the comments of the people.

        What axe do you have to grind here? Are you one of the “get out if you don’t love the country people?” “get out if you have an opinion that differs”
        Is that you Kai? Do you believe that there is only one way to do everything?

        • Kai

          Okay, what is the “one thing” these HK protesters are asking for?

          For what reason specifically are people in China calling anyone here “traitors”?

          What evidence do you have that “everyone in China” has to “love China no matter what”?

          Is accosting the former Governor of Hong Kong waving colonial flags and all the symbolism they know is attached to doing so while blaring the UK national anthem on their cell phones really the best way to communicate to others that all they want is “change and desire for more or something different”?

          What exactly justifies your accusation that “change and desire for more or something different” is “wrong” in China?

          How is “unwilling and unable to change and even unwilling and unable to think about it” remotely an accurate characterization of a China that has been willing and able to think about change and actually do so?

          Do you think it is fair to dismiss change that isn’t to your liking or isn’t at the rate you prefer as “unwilling and unable”?

          I don’t think you represented the article or comments above accurately at all. Hence, I remarked that you misrepresented the situation.

  • RothschildIsMoney

    HK would never have been beholden to the mainland so long as they followed communist economic policies.

    Are you implying mainland China is still communist?

  • Brian227

    Two points: firstly, the mainland never adopted UK economic policies, if the two were the same the UK wouldn’t have such an unbalanced situation; secondly, Hong Kong’s development and everything that made it what it is were directly linked to its role as a conduit to the resources of China. Now that it’s no longer in a privileged position for access, it’s unique status is in question and heading in the direction of being a prestige-piece rather than an essential node for trade and finance.

    The longer Hong Kongers stay in denial about their changed place in the world and in the PRC’s calculations, the harder the crash will be when reality bites home.

  • Yes!

    Quote: “Return to Britain? No problem. The people can leave, but Hong Kong stays.”

    This is just one example of the many similar thoughts that show the retardedness of the mainlanders. Should the hongkong people leave, hongkong will no longer be the economically vibrant, successful and dynamic place that we all know. What’s left will be the patriotic ones making their homes on a piece of rock.

    Quote: “Instead of being masters, they insist on being other people’s slaves.”

    Same retarded mentality of mainlanders spewing the same old retarded communist line. They do not know what freedom is because they have never lived in a society such as hongkong. They do not know what being a master is like; they think they are the masters on the mainland. This is so laughable, so ignorant of the fact that they themselves are the slaves of the CCP.

    Just think of the 65,000 odd filthy rich Chinese mainlanders dying to take up Canadian citizenship, who now threaten to take legal action against the Canadian government to reverse their recent policy change to stop accepting PRC Chinese immgrants. Wonder how all those patriotic mainlanders think of these comrades who are dying to trade their “masters’ lives” to become “slaves” in Canada? LOL!

    • Alex Dương

      “Should the hongkong people leave, hongkong will no longer be the
      economically vibrant, successful and dynamic place that we all know.”

      Oh, you’re saying Hong Kong is still economically vibrant, successful, and dynamic? I guess the proof really is in the pudding: Hongkongers prefer to stay in Hong Kong rather than leave for the U.K.

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        A friend of mine, they moved to Canada when HK was handed back. There was a fear of the Red Army moving in and taking over. What we are seeing is the CCP slowly, but surely, taking over and removing certain things. We can see the media in HK has changed. became less critical of CCP and Mainland China.

        A lot of people, at least those who could have dual nationality in HK due to this fear.

    • Kai

      I think you’re too eager to express contempt.

      Quote 1 doesn’t show retardedness. It shows that these mainlanders don’t think Hong Kong is defined by these protesters so if they want to go, they can go. A parent isn’t retarded when he tells his misbehaving teenage son he can leave but he isn’t taking the car.

      We have no reasonable idea that these specific protesters and anti-China critics are what make Hong Kong economically vibrant, successful, and dynamic. Neither do the mainlanders.

      Quote 2 is hardly an “old retarded communist line” nor does it show a “retarded mentality” unique to mainlanders at all. It’s a pretty common line used by all advocates for self-determination (don’t forget democracy) when people are faced with the prospect of having to give up some material comfort for some ideal or principle. It’s a a common sentiment pretty much everywhere imperialism and colonialism has touched. It’s the same thing Irish and Scottish freedom fighters accused the Irish and Scottish nobility that were collaborationists.

      I think it’s pretty obvious what the people saying this mean in the context of reacting to this protest. It is only laughable if you intentionally assume them stupid for convenience of contempt. But in that case, you’re not observing anything, you’re just dishonestly fabricating pretext.

  • Renjick

    LOL at the mainlander comments. It’s like listening to rednecks in the US.

  • Kate

    This is pathetic. It’s one thing to want independence but it’s another to want a different master. These idiots think they’re so much better than mainland Chinese when in reality, majority of the people in Western countries see them as the same. No one considers them British nor should they. Their culture is nothing like the UK and most are not fluent in English. Even if they were under British rule, no one would ever consider them British. Just fucking pathetic.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      No, it isn’t pathetic. You are because you are an fucking idiot who doesn’t know why they are doing this. They are seeing their freedoms and rights infrienged, starting with the media. Their culture is nothing like the UK, true, but it isn’t the exact same as mainland China. Have you ever been to both places?

      They rather have the Brits than the CCP. And let’s be honest, of the two evils, the former is better than the latter.

      • Kate

        Wrong. I do see why they’re doing this but I still think it’s stupid. If they were smart they would be demanding independence, not asking to be slaves to another country. Also, while I have not been to either countries I have met students from both places at my university and they are nothing alike. The students from HK are more similar to the mainland Chinese students than to the ones from UK.

        • carlstar

          Gain independence from China. You know what China would do to HK if they did that? China doesn’t even respect its neighbours borders. Also a few thousand troops would just march in and take over. That is the Chinese way against places that have little or no military. At least with UK they would have a military backing them, even if it would be unable to help.

          • Kate

            Fine, independence isn’t very realistic but it doesn’t make it any less pathetic to beg for colonial rule. The British has never considered HKers British and they have never gave them the rights and freedom people in Britain had

          • carlstar

            Do you not understand the point here? There is no chance a nation could be born next to China of today.

            There is only one reason one would join another group. That is for protection. Can you understand the basics of how things work? If you have something and someone wants it you must protect it or get it from elsewhere.

            By saying “at least…” is in no way confirming and suggesting that one does it. It is a term that is used to say that even with this option something else could happen but if you then kept reading, i then stated that “even if it would be unable to help” again to suggest that it is damned if it does

          • Kate

            They can form alliances/pacts with other countries for protection. There are countries that do not have armies. There are other options besides being a colony. Besides I doubt Britain would fight to get HK back at the moment. Not because they can’t win (their technology is far superior to China’s) but because everyone’s economy is too dependent on one another. No one is going to risk their own country’s economy for HK at the moment unless provoked

          • linette lee

            HK has it’s own HK gov’t system. Our HK gov’t listens to their people and answer to their needs. Our democratic rules work best for HK and the people of HK. HK has more freedom than most countries in the world including UK. Hong Kong is a melting pot of eastern and western cultures. It’s traditional and modern. It is unique so our system is unique so can’t be compared.

          • Kai

            You know what China would do if HK reverted back to British rule? I’m sure it’s not intentional but some of you guys make returning to British rule sound more realistic and acceptable than independence. Utterly baffling.

          • carlstar

            Utterly baffling? This is in no way suggesting going back to how it was. I state over and over that going back is a failed idea and mission. It is up there with getting back with the girl that cheated on you or something similar. As a Mod you should be able to realise that conversation about points is not a direct and absolute way of doing things, it is a debate on a certain criteria, such as what was mentioned. There are consequences to actions and those that refuse to look, think and talk about actions are just going to blindly follow and do terrible things and in the end they will use the argument of “oh i didn’t know it was like that….”.

            There is no point to join Britain and I am not suggesting it at all and it would be a backwards move. It is just the independence for a place that is that close to China and with no military. What is the point? It would last about a day so what can you do? Perhaps HK should seek support from Taiwan, Japan, India, Australia, America or the UN instead then.

            As you are Mod and should be moderating, I am very disappointed with your blatant misdirection.

          • Kai

            I don’t really follow your attempt at moral blackmail. Mods are responsible for upholding our stated comment policy. That policy doesn’t include mods not expressing an opinion or reaction, or even misunderstanding what others are saying.

            You expressed astonishment that Kate thinks these HK protesters would be more sympathetic if they advocated for independence instead of seemingly begging to return to British rule. Your response rhetorically asking her if she knew what would happen was interpreted by me as missing her point about how sympathetic seeking independence is relative to seeking a return to one’s historical colonial rulers.

            What may be unfair to you specifically is that I’m responding to both you and other comments, comments that I feel are dismissing the suggestion that seeking independence would be more sympathetic and defending the HK protesters for wanting a return to British rule. When these comments exclaim how unrealistic seeking independence is, I can’t help but think their defense of seeking a return to British rule means these commenters think that is more realistic.

            What was my attempt to be fair to you and these other commenters was me explicitly qualifying that “I’m sure it’s not intentional…”.

            I get your point that China could militarily occupy HK easily (they already do). I just cannot see how British backup or anyone else’s backup would make HK seccession any more viable. HK would still be easily occupied by China and in the unrealistic event that the British or anyone else could magically teleport a military force around HK that could deter Chinese military occupation, HK would probably be vaporized.

            What you see as marginally improving HK’s odds of militarily ensuring its seccession looks more like a sure-fire way to prompt Beijing to ensure that if they can’t have HK, no one will.

        • Joe

          On a practical level HK independence is impossible, due to lack of fresh water and food to sustain over 7 million inhabitants. Even throughout the colonial era HK relied on the mainland for food and water supplies. This is why HK had to subject to another country, it is not self-sustainable by itself.

          • Kate

            So basically when it comes down to it, HK needs China. I understand their frustration with being under Chinese rule;but, instead of looking for ways to make this work, they’re just crawling back to a country that only considered them their subjects and not citizens (I could be wrong about this so feel free to correct me). Pretty sure the people of colonies were not considered citizens

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            Really?

            “ I understand their frustration with being under Chinese rule;but, instead of looking for ways to make this work, they’re just crawling back to a country that only considered them their subjects and not citizens” – Yes, because the CCP really want the HKers to think for themselves and be free to criticize the CCP and will not interfere with the HKers education and will not revise history books.

            You called the HKers idiots and then come out with that gem.

          • Alex Dương

            Hmm, I have to disagree here. Singapore is independent, and it too must import all of its water and food.

        • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

          You think it is stupid. I don’t. We disagree. It isn’t like they are asking to be ‘slaves’ as you put it anyway.

          HK students will of course be more similar to Chinese than UK. Students from Pakistan and India are similar and more alike but have their differences too. Something they themselves can spot.

          • Rick in China

            I think when you read “while I have not been to either countries” you should realise nothing you say matters, and educating someone who is passionately arguing about countries they have no fucking idea about in a ‘matter of fact’ way is like educating a parrot. No matter what you say, the parrot will just keep repeating.

          • Kate

            I don’t see how whether I have been to these places have to do with anything. You can easily live in a foreign country for 5 years and know shit about their government. I mean hell, most people in the US shouldn’t even be allowed to vote since a large number of US born citizens barely know anything about the government. When asked about why they choose the presidential candidate that they did, many answer with generic answers such as “he said he’ll bring change” or “he said he’ll cut down spending” or other phases they hear.
            As for the whole parrot comment, it could just as easily be argued that these people are just repeating what they hear in the news and what their friends and family members say. If anything it’s more of a mob mentality. It still amuses me that they think they’re superior to mainland Chinese and don’t consider themselves Chinese when most are of the same ethnic group.

          • Rick in China

            It’s not a liltmus test you’re right. It’s not a you’ve been or not been therefor understand the issue. However – it’s absolutely an indicator, and people who rant about what people in another place should do – and have admittedly no experience in the place they’re ranting about, it is a litmus test for nonsense. Talk about a country you know about aside from observance of people who are from the country in yours, and perhaps you’ll make some sense.

      • Alex Dương

        It’s extremely pathetic. If they had any self-esteem, they’d be pushing for independence, not voluntary submission to colonialism.

        • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

          We have to disagree then.

    • Zappa Frank

      majority see them as mainland Chinese? I have some doubts about it..

      • Kate

        From my experience, majority of the people (atleast in the US) don’t believe people living in HK or mainland China are any different. They might say HK is more developed than most cities in China but as far as people go, their opinion on them are pretty much the same.

    • whuddyasack

      True. Not only the British, even Canadians see them as just another Asian, specifically “Chinese”. Hence Vancouver is known as “Hongcouver” by many. The reality is that in general, the British aren’t going to accept them with open arms and they are only fooling themselves if they think otherwise. As much as I like Hong Kong and the UK, what these activists are doing is actually borderline neurotic. Perhaps China isn’t a developed, civilized, open country to them but they are still getting a much better deal than how they would be treated in similar developing countries. There they would be targeted for their “race” like we saw in Indonesia or perhaps in the Philippines. This intra-racial racist hate is nothing short of deplorable.

  • whitewalker

    Say what you want about the UK, but when thousands of Chinese fled to HK after 1949,the British didn’t ignore them,call them “Illegals” or try to drive them back. Instead, they looked at the squalid shacks they were living in, and said “We have to do something about this”, and started a massive program of construction, building decent housing for everyone, each resettlement block with a school on the roof. For those postwar years, the standard of living for just about everyone was constantly rising. Life was good, and tomorrow was bright.
    Look at things now-living is a struggle for many . I think a lot of these “protests” are just nostalgia for the real or imagined “good old days”, and how life once was in HK. I don’t know of another city with so many web pages and Facebook pages devoted to photos of how things looked years ago (I belong to a lot of them myself). Go on ebay-ordinary slides of street scenes in HK taken 40-50 years ago can go for hundreds of dollars, after heavy bidding. People don’t really want the British back-they just want the city they grew up in back.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      OR they prefer the rule of the Brits than Beijing, as Beijing is slowly, but surely taking away their freedoms, starting with Media and Businesses.

      • Kai

        Many do, but they’ll find new things to bitch about under British rule. They did before. They will again. If there was ever an example proving Chinese people have a misguided crutch on “benevolent rule”, this would be it.

        • Alex Dương

          I’m reminded of Jackie Chan’s “Chinese need to be controlled” comment five years ago. These activists probably rallied against that then, but their preference suggests that they actually agree with Chan: they just want a different master.

        • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

          People always bitch about things.
          That isn’t something new, in any era.
          The difference is, right now they can actually bitch about it in public.

    • Kate

      People always look at history with rose color glasses

  • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

    I don’t think you can say ‘nobody’ but majority want to be independent.

    The difference between India and HK is that HK is basically changed ownership.

  • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

    OR that they realise there are now differences between themselves and mainland Chinese. E.g. taking a shit in the middle of the street in public.

    Or do you think Chinese from places like Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, etc. the same?

  • Alex Dương

    Why do people like you and Matt think race is at all relevant here?

  • Alex Dương

    Yeah, who is the “one” saying that? “Yes!” is. I’m pointing out that he isn’t being consistent. I think you confused him for me.

  • Guest

    The true nature of what’s happening in Taiwan is actually very similar with “Anti-locust” movement in HK which got covered on CS occasionally, HKers and Taiwanese are frightened of “the big red China”, and kind of blaming everything on everything related or suspiciously related to Mainland China, even good things like tourists, shopping, this time, free-trade agreement, which indeed, one of a kind very very good deal to Taiwan, but still, they are panic, “the red communists um,,, Mao’ red guards shit gonna occupy Taiwan if we pass the agreement…“.

    Taiwan has fallen behind, the former four Asian tigers, Taiwan’s GDP per capita is the lowest, surpassed by Korea years ago, just look at the Korean drama, music along with Korean products are thriving in China. And keep this in mind, 70% of Taiwanese and Korean exports overlap…

    The key to defending yourself, your lifestyle and your belief is staying strong and moving forwards, kill this agreement is apparently not helping.

    • Insomnicide

      Communism setting China back is why the fourt Asian tigers even exist in the first place. If it weren’t not for communism, mainland China would already have conquered HK, Taiwan, Japan, Korea economically.

    • cantonizi

      Anti locust in HK means something almost the same in BC Canada, but one thing different is that the locusts are the sly Hong Kongers.
      So funny, England don’t even want them in the UK.

    • Kate

      I don’t get why they choose to make the Chinese citizens as their enemies. Hate the government all you want, but the people aren’t the ones controlling your lives. Yes, I get that most of their manners (or lack of) leave a lot to be desired but I feel thats almost expected when they have been underdeveloped and in chaos for so long. I mean, how many of the pre-90s or 80s generation had a stable childhood and formal education?

  • Rick in China

    Individual freedom as defined by the index of freedom in the world largely includes: “freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual economic choice, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, violence and crimes,freedom of movement, homosexual rights and women’s rights” amongst some other detailed statistics, which boil down to:

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/ch3-an-index-of-freedom-in-the-world.pdf
    0=least freedom, 10=most freedom
    CN: 5.1 individual freedom, 6.44 economic freedom, 5.76 total freedom index
    UK: 8.4 individual freedom, 7.78 economic freedom, 8.08 total freedom index

    It should be noted that Hong Kong is continually ranked one of if not the most free country, largely economic and somewhat based on individual freedoms (i’ll call it a country here for argument sake). In this case 7.8 / 9.02 / 8.39.

    I think I’ll take standard think tank results with metrics broken down and clear definition of how they’re measuring freedoms, which makes sense, as opposed to the ridiculous anecdotes in this thread which typically say “well I can do XXX without gettin’ hassled maaan”.

  • Kai

    HK didn’t even have a British-styled government; what it had was British government. Therefore, I’d want a British-styled government over a Chinese-styled government, but I wouldn’t want British government.

    The problem here is that these protesters may want British-styled government but they’re intentionally being inflammatory by expressing a desire for British government. They shouldn’t be surprised by the ire they’re getting.

    The problem with people who bring up “all the success under this so-called british ‘rule’ in the 50 years” is that they’re conveniently forgetting everything that was bad and undesirable about it and allowing their spite to make them unreasonable and offensive. It’s like people who wax nostalgic about the past. They’re just thinking of certain things and they bring these things up to express dissatisfaction with the present. They’re not being objective.

    Frankly, independence is much more realistic an option than returning to British rule. What do you think would piss off your girlfriend more? Dumping her or dumping her for an ex? Same principle. Agitating for a return to British rule is adding insult to injury (and I’m sure these protesters intend it to be so).

    HK did well under the British government precisely because it was an access point to mainland China. It was used as an intermediary. This is unique to HK’s circumstance not to HK itself, nor to British governance itself. British governance did not make HK great. HK’s role as a middleman between the world and China was what made it great. Don’t get this confused. You’re ascribing too much of what made HK great to the British when it is more of a confluence of historical circumstance.

    The situation in HK right now is better than people feared and worse than people hoped. It would be unfair to say Beijing hasn’t interfered with HK, but it is also unfair to say Beijing hasn’t exercised considerable restraint in meddling with all the things it takes for granted in meddling on the mainland. The problem here are indeed generalization, and exaggerations. People are staking out positions refusing to acknowledge valid points on both sides.

    For example, your second to last paragraph. Of course people in China consider HK Chinese. Why did they want HK back in the first place? Why are they offended by HKers who spurn them? You’re generalizing the resentment some mainlanders feel towards HK protesters into “people living in China”, making it a justification for HKers to intentionally piss off Chinese by spurning their association with “Chinese”.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      Frankly, independence is much more realistic an option than returning to British rule. – To be honest, neither are. It is helpful for the CCP that mainland Chinese are ‘flooding’ the place. It is a easier way to control the population when they are your own.

      • Kai

        Yes, of course neither are, but insfoar as I felt people were inadvertently suggesting one is more realistic than the other, I weighed in on what I think.

        • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

          I do wonder, if the people of HK were given the vote on whether to be returned to China or stay under British rule, which of the two would they have chosen back in , what was it, 1997?

          To the few HKers I know, I do know they would prefer the Brits to the current CCP rulers.

          • Insomnicide

            You should watch some old Hong Kong films. Before the handover, pretty much all the movies were very patriotic to the Chinese nation and Han nationalist. The English were commonly cast as villains.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            I did. Though those were more 80s movies. I’m not sure how the 90s were like. Maybe you can give me a list of how many shown the Brits badly or a figure chart or something.

            The Brits did treat plenty of people poorly until a little more recently. You don’t have to sell that point to me. My family has had personal experience of it.

          • Insomnicide

            Many Shaw brothers movies, Bruce Lee movies, Stephen Chow movies, Jet Li movies etc. etc.

            Any movie set in the Qing dynasty usually had the British as the villains.

          • wnsk

            The Qing dynasty officials were often cast as villains too. The old movies were better in that they gave a somewhat more balanced view. As in, the English were villains, but so were some Chinese. The Japanese were villains but they had a sense of honour.

            The newer movies are so repugnantly one-dimensional (Ip Man, for example), they make me puke.

          • Insomnicide

            I guess storytelling has left the HK cinema as now nothing comes out of Hong Kong except cheap vulgar comedies, ultra violent crime films or sex films.

          • Kai

            Yeah, that’d be a fun thought experiement. The confounding factors are that so much of how HK was developed and governed in the years leading up to the Handover was influenced by the British knowing they’d have to hand it over. How would British government of HK been different if it weren’t shaped by this decision/deadline? To what extent did the Brits make things “better” in HK precisely because they wanted to shape their legacy, doing something they wouldn’t have done if they didn’t already resolve to hand HK back?

            All of that would be relevant, as is the fact that even when HK wasn’t ruled particularly benevolently by the Brits, when there was racism, classism, explotive imperialist corruption, etc. life may still have been “better” or more stable than the corresponding time in mainland China.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            You ask some good questions but ignore the changes that were happening in the UK and the Western world. It could just as well be down to the fact that soceity has/had changed. People were starting to deal with racism and elitism. They had to change with the times. A lot of things were changing in the UK during the 80s/90s. And it wasn’t just racism, other things such as more and more people came out of the closet. Things were changing. We don’t know how much of the change back hom affected the change in overseas territories.

            For example, my driving instructor lived in Brick Lane in London. As a kid in the 80s, he use to see National Front march through the street. In the late 80s, early 90s gangs formed to keep the NF out. Now, no NF or BNP member would do that without police protection and even then would get the shit beaten out of them due to the area changing to a more Asian one (Bangladeshi). That’s a change in the UK. How such changes affected Brits rule of HK along with the handover will not really be known unless we actually see some documents relating to such things.

            You and I can’t say for sure. I do think though, the fact that people (that I know in HK) were willing to immigrate, become dual nationals or gain another nationalit due to the fear of the CCP does show that they may have prefered Brits to the CCP. Then again, I can only go on the HKers I know and that is just a handful.

          • Kai

            Sorry, I didn’t mean to ignore those changes and I’ve said as much in a previous cS discussion (forgot with whom, some UK nationalist) about this HK handover history, that attitudes about imperialism/colonialism had changed in the UK itself, and that was one important reason why history has played out the way it has. The truth is a confluence of many things.

            I agree that many preferred the Brits to the CCP. They include those who took up UK citizenship, emigrated elsewhere, and even many who stayed in HK though the former have more credit for voting with their feet. There is absolutely no profit in denying that there were HKers who at that time preferred the Brits to the CCP. I’d frankly be surprised if there were any significant number of HKers who preferred to the CCP to the Brits. Those who supported the return of HK to China I think were more in support of the idea that HK is part of “China” and “China” should be made whole, not so much in support of “HK belongs to the CCP”.

            HKers therefore can be characterized as supporting the handover but not ecstatic about coming under CCP governance. Likewise, those who are protesting CCP governance (not necessarily these protesters above) shouldn’t be conflated as protesting HK being a part of China and thus somehow “traitors” (at least not to the abstract idea of a Chinese nation, although perhaps to the CCP government, which isn’t above such fallacies). These protesters above I think are somewhat crossing over the line, or at least not doing themselves any favors in being clear about their complaints. I’m pretty sure they’re educated enough to know it’s hard to wave a colonial flag and blare the UK national anthem without coming across to others as turning their back not just on the CCP but on the notion of a Chinese nation.

            But as many HKers have hedged, this group of protesters are radicals and not mainstream. It’s always the bad apples who make things more difficult for everyone else.

  • Insomnicide

    It’s not simply government styles, but also context and history. This government they’re asking for is also the same government that flooded their land with opium, paved the way for new forms of corruption, kidnapped and sold many Chinese people into slavery and last but not least created the HKer’s inferiority complex.

    • Yes!

      The first time I visited what I think was Hong Kong, and that was 20 years ago, the place was no way like what you described? I didn’t see any opium flooded the place, I didn’t see Chinese slaves, and I remember the Hongkongers I met were confident, assertive, widely-travelled, even slightly arrogant. Hong Kong was the number one financial centre of Asia at that time, their economy way ahead of Singapore’s. So what inferiority complex are you on about? Have you confused Hongkongers with the mainlanders?

      • Person.Boi

        You know why China is so poor right? They sent Britain lots of good things in the 1800s like gold and silver and so to make the trade even they sent China opium. After smoking it for a good while, people realised that opium is actually quite harmful and so tossed it off ships into the ocean.

        What did Britain do? Declare war on China for dumping its “goods” and strip away Hong Kong. All the things he mentioned occurred at that time around 1900 which is about 100 years ago, a bit more than 20 years when you visited aye?

  • Luck Of Fire

    Let the people choose!

  • YourSupremeCommander

    Yeah, the Nazis conquered half of Europe fair and square too, so WTF?
    You really are this dense aren’t you?

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      They also lost it :P

    • Alan Dale Brown

      He’s just pointing out hypocrisy; I don’t think he really believes in that logic.

    • Probotector

      They conquered more than half, more like three quarters.

  • Alex Dương

    Correction: the U.K. won Hong Kong Island and Kowloon “fair and square.” The New Territories, which comprise over 85% of “Hong Kong,” were leased for 99 years. During those 99 years, the British developed all three regions of Hong Kong as one entity. Thus, it was not possible for the British to only return the New Territories. So yes, while on paper, the U.K. had the “right” to keep Hong Kong Island and Kowloon in perpetuity, that was infeasible in practice.

  • Insomnicide

    One thing the CCP and Mao did right is remove the crazy religious orgy China was in. They had Confucians, Taoists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. etc. all fighting over their gods. And the southernmost Chinese, especially Guangdong and Hong Kong are insanely superstitious. One famous example is actor Jackie Chan being warned by his relatives not to ever change his haircut or else bad luck will follow.

    • don mario

      so how about hong kong and taiwan? are they completely fucked up from not being removed from the religious orgy?

  • Insomnicide

    If pouring opium into a country is fair and square well….

    And Britain drafted with China the lend-lease agreement. Which stated that Britain will occupy Hong Kong as a port for the time period of 100 years. Afterward Britain will return Hong Kong peacefully back to China.

    It seems that you are unaware of historical context.

  • Hong Kongers and Macanese speak Cantonese. Taiwanese and Singaporeans ancestrally speak Hokkien and use Mandarin as a lingua franca. Combined, they’d create a relatively balanced linguistic community similar to Belgium (French=Cantonese, Flemish=Hokkien; English=Mandarin), rather than the grossly disproportionate Mandarin dominance of the PRC.

    FYI, Taiwanese and Mainlanders aren’t different races.

  • Eidolon

    Western observers are, I believe, basically mistaken in trying to draw an analogy between HK and the ‘love of democracy and freedom,’ because the fact of the matter is, HK was never democratic under the British, and it’s not their freedoms that have been mainly taken away by CCP rule.

    Instead, I believe, the HKers’ cognitive dissonance is easier to explain through other lens: class segregation and socioeconomic well-being, which comprise, ironically, a stereotypically modern Chinese mindset.

    The main losses in HK after the switch over to CCP rule, and what triggered the widespread protests against the ‘mainland locusts’, is the breaking down of class segregation – in the form of HKers being forced to mingle with the ‘locusts’ who cut in lines and shit on the streets – and lowered socioeconomic well-being, both due to the CCP’s decision to make Shenzen, rather than HK, the economic center of the Pearl Delta, and because of the overcrowding caused by mainlanders flooding into HK trying to take advantage of the city’s welfare policies.

    In dealing with these losses, HK’s reactions to the mainland flood is practically a mirror of another Chinese city – Shanghai, and to a lesser degree the typical rural-urban divide that has prompted exaggerations of ‘apartheid’ in Western media when they view the migrant worker situation in mainland China.

    To this end, my personal opinion is that the hue and cry in HK is not a fundamental clash of civilizations effect, but is rather simply the expression of the age-old disdain for people from lower classes than they, and simultaneously the obsession with socioeconomic well-being over other measures. Both are, ultimately, stereotypically Chinese, though obviously not limited to Chinese.

    Within this irony exists the humor I attach to much of the ideological bantering, for no one, in the case of identical reactions against migrant workers in Shanghai, would ever say that this is a case of Shanghai people fighting for their freedom, democracy, rule of law, etc. Indeed, observers have been quite astute in understanding that it’s mainly about class discrimination and socioeconomic differences in those cases. It is the same here: even were the PRC a democracy, even were freedoms equally granted across the PRC, just the fact that this is poor people moving into areas formerly occupied by rich people is bound to cause mass protests.

    And at the end of the day, granting independence to every city that feels the need to maintain its urban rich life-style over the rural country folk has never been practical.

    • Unfolding Universe

      Indeed..

    • Honibaz

      You seem to understand the mindset of an elitist Hong Konger very well. If they were at the same socio-economic class as Mainlanders, then antagonism towards the mainland would be much weaker. Fortunately the city still has reasonable people who spend their time on something more productive than hating on Mainlanders and the CPC.

  • cantonizi

    Hong Kongers got the balls now ‘cos the US has sent activists and freedom loving shit disturbers there to back them at all protests and anti China events.
    Do these HKongers know that Britain changed the immigration law in 1997 not to allow Hong Kongers colonial rights that Indians, Jamaicans and Afrikans got?

    • mr.wiener

      Ahh……De’ ‘mericans are out to get yous hmm?
      It must be wonderful to have the same answer to everything.

  • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

    Are HKers and Mainland Chinese the same race/ethnic group? IF so, then it wouldn’t be under racism but still considered discriminatory.

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