Kunming Train Station Terrorist Attack, Chinese Reactions

The police at the scene.

From QQ QQ:

Violent Terrorist Attack at Yunnan Kunming Train Station

On the night of March 1, the police cordoned off Kunming Train Station. On the night of March 1, at 9:20pm, more than 10 masked assailants with knives [machetes?] wearing the same outfits hacked innocent people at the square, the booking halls, and other locations at Yunnan Kunming Train Station. Up till 1am on March 2, this violent incident had already caused 29 deaths and 113 injuries among the masses. The police shot down 5 assailants at the scene, while the rest of the assailants have yet to be apprehended. Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Ling Yiguang.

One of the roads to Kunming Train Station is blocked.

This picture is of the 3 warning lines set up by the police on Beijing Road which leads to Kunming Train Station, prohibiting all vehicles from entering.

A passenger at the scene who is still in shock.

This picture is of one of the passengers at the scene still in shock.

A group of riot police is on route to the scene.

A group of riot police on route to the scene.

A scene of mess after the violent attack.

On the night of March 1, scattered luggage outside one of the ticket booking halls of Kunming Train Station (photo taken by cellphone). Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Ling Yiguang.

The police is blocking the scene.

On the night of March 1, the police cordoning off the scene outside Kunming Train Station. Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Ling Yiguang.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Pictures are of the scenes of the violence.

A wounded woman is receiving medical treatment.

On the night of March 1, a wounded woman receiving medical treatment at Kunming City No.1 People’s Hospital (cellphone photo). Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Li Meng.

The wounded are receiving medical treatments.

On March 2, before dawn, the wounded receiving medical treatment at Kunming City No.1 People’s Hospital. Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Ling Yiguang.

A wounded man is receiving medical treatment.

On March 2, before dawn, a wounded man receiving medical treatment at Kunming City No.1 People’s Hospital. Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Ling Yiguang.

A wounded person is receiving emergency medical treatment.

This picture is of a wounded person receiving emergency medical treatment at the hospital.

Kunming Train Station.

This picture is of Kunming Train Station. Photographed by Xinhua News Agency reporter Ling Yiguang.

From QQ:

Kunming Violent Terrorist Attack Engineered by Xinjiang Separatist Forces, Police Kill 4 Arrest 1

Xinhua News Agency Kunming March 2 report — Reporters of this article have learned from the Kunming Municipal Government Information Office that evidence from the scene of the Kunming “3.01” Incident indicates that this was a major violent terrorist incident singlehandedly plotted and organized by Xinjiang separatist forces.

[…]

Comments from QQ (1 & 2):

三哥:

[I] am against any acts of terrorism directing at the common people. No matter what reasons you have, as long as you take on harming innocent people as your method, you are the enemy of humanity, a shameful coward, a criminal that everyone can slay, and a beast… [for which] we will have no interest in listening to any of your stories, care for your appeals, and will be unable to negotiate or compromise with you. The only thing we will do is: to strike you down at the scene, to pursue and wipe you out afterwards. No mercy.

梦里伊人:

Tonight, after I drowsily listened to my husband finish telling me the violent incident of people being cut down, I heard many people wailing in the neighborhood. I don’tt know whether they were related [to the victims]. Afraid and trembling, I then dreamed of being chased by murderers…

纯净的山泉水:

If we want to eradicate such a malignant tumor, it will take the resolve of our country, to track them down, no matter what country their roots are, to resolutely strike them down, that whoever should shield them would be our enemies that must be struck down as well. Then we’ll see who else dare to cause trouble in China. Support our country, severely punish violent extremists.

红叶:

No matter in which country, in which society, in which time, as long as the violent attack is directed at the innocent, to the common people, it is definitely a violent terrorist crime. Show no mercy to those violent terrorist perpetrators who use innocent people as targets.

芶佑指╮卟弃:

Must find out the root cause, to prevent it from ever happening again.

畅所欲言:

So it was indeed the Uyghurs who did this! I am baffled. Under the good circumstances and favorable developmental environment of our country at present, why are you people still making trouble? Why won’t you learn from other countries? Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, with so many examples, have you still not realized? That the result of making trouble is to be scattered and smashed to pieces and to live from hand to mouth [in a precarious state]? And you’re still ungrateful for living in China? Are you just inherently wretched?

正寒:

Without behind the scenes American support, Xinjiang separatists and Tibetan separatists wouldn’t be so bold. We should firmly strike down domestic pro-American forces and pro-American separatists!

阿根廷:

This was probably ordered by Obama during his meeting with the Dalai Lama, so [the Dalai Lama] plotted this operation upon returning.

乐天派:

Killed 29 people, injured over 130 more, just what were the police doing? How about the chengguan? How much times must it have taken to hurt more than 100 people? The police should have arrived in time to stop this.

Maggie:

To these utterly heartless villains, we shouldn’t talk about human rights, or about the law. If they are merely executed, how can everyone’s hate be satisfied? So first extract their blood and store it in the blood bank. Then, remove all their removable organs and donate them to people in need.

From Sina Weibo:

南方都市报: “Witnesses Tell Kunming Violent Terrorist Attack: Even the Old and Children not Spared”: “Seven to eight people holding machetes, regardless the old or the young, they hacked anyone they laid eyes on.” Witness Mr. Tan pointing at the direction of the Booking Hall and said,” even the ower of the book store at the canteen over there was hacked to the ground. These beasts even hack people some more when they saw that they weren’t dead. A child at the age of five or six was carried onto an ambulance by the police, the child’s grandfather, father, and mother were all brutally killed.”

From Sina Weibo: (no longer accessible)

记者联合调查: The hacking incident in Kunming Train Station, a large number of injured people have been taken to the hospital for medical treatment.

The paramedic are giving medical treatment to the wounded at the scene.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Scene of the violent attack.

Comments from Sina Weibo:

三文愚i:

Kunming is sleepless tonight. There are bloodstains everywhere on the floor of [Kunming] City No.1 People’s Hospital. The sound of wailing is endless. Around the Municipal Public Security Bureau, SWAT team are fully equipped with guns and ammunition. Apart from police cars blaring by with their sirens, the entire city is in absolute silence.

Flughafen-Polizei:

Among those passengers rushing to their hard seats and overnight trains, some were the poor rushing towards their livelihoods, probably the backbones [main source of economic income] of their families, who had children and aging parents, who merely because of their misfortune in encountering this group of people, their families are forever ruined, “adding hail upon snow” [making their situation even worse]. Cowards, wimps, scoundrels, this is the truth about terrorists. They have nothing to do with insurgents, they have nothing to do with justice. I support the government in using all inhumane methods in dealing with them, including guilt by association. Let them have a taste of how bitter it is to lose their families.

CHE_vison:

Our hatred/hostility must always only be against those who use violence. If it becomes against certain ethic groups, then we’ve allowed the schemes of these bastards prevail. Don’t blindly reshare/forward and spread panic or untrue information!

黄无敌要变黄美丽噢耶屎-_:

Our faint appeal arrives one step too late to this sinking world.

拾迦姑娘:

While looking at the hot weibo posts, I saw some whitewashing [defending, speaking on behalf of the insurgents [perpetrators], saying that maybe they were forced to this, that the best solution for the weak was to kill. Chilling, so chilling. My life is also disappointing [not going the way I want it], I have also narrowly escaped death, so does this mean I have the right to kill your entire family? Fuck your mother!

卢思浩Kevin:

Has it occurred to anyone that those who were hurt were actually so close to getting back home?

Swiss迪:

In the middle of the night, refreshing weibo in tears, my heart aches so much that I can barely speak. All the swearing in me is lost. Those who unfortunately died, I wish you well in heaven. 蜡烛 Those who are fortunate enough to live on must live on with all determination. Tonight, we are all people of Kunming. Tonight, we are all people of China. 蜡烛

宝宝-Lily宝宝:

Defenseless ordinary common people are the most vulnerable group of the world. They have no power, nor much money. They are only someone’s father, someone’s wife, someone’s child, and someone’s family. Their whole life is ordinary, but they mean a lot to their families and friends. Please don’t aim your weapon at the ordinary common people. Because every ordinary person is the entire world to his/her family.

中国经贸出版社总编辑:

Just several evil people with several knives could cause more than 100 casualties. 27 deaths. Such a sharp asymmetry. If the terrorists had the equipment that they use to terrorize the West, then the casualties would be so much more severe. In this mild multi-ethnic provincial capital Kunming, the general public’s ability to immediately fight back is feeble. A massacre spanning 300 meters, the security measures were inadequate. Every place needs contingent response plans. A public place, with multiple individuals striking swiftly in unison, choosing the most defenseless areas, a surprise attack. The response to stop it must be fast and efficient.

Aunty开:

I have a feeling that in this wake, similar terrorist incidents will happen one after another at train stations, bus stations, and even airports nationwide. Everyone, be on your guard when you’re going out, try your best to avoid going to places of gathering crowds.

From NetEase:

Kunming: Violent Terrorist Attack Plotted and Carried Out By East Turkestan Separatist Terrorists

The Kremlin Press Office issued information saying that Russian President Vladimir Putin has called Chinese Chairman Xi Jinping to express sympathy, saying the incident is hair-raising. Ban Ki-moon, the French Foreign Ministry, the United States State Department and Consulate in China, the Japanese Foreign Ministry and Consulate in China, and other international organizations have condemned the incident, expressing their condolences to the victims.

CCTV: Kunming Police Shoot Dead 4 Attackers, 1 Female Attacker Arrested — According to Kunming police, public security officers shot dead 4 attackers on the scene and arrested 1. The 5 criminal suspects were 3 males and 2 females, with 1 of the female criminal suspects injured and successfully apprehended, and has already been taken to the hospital for emergency medical attention.

Xinhuanet Kunming March 2 report — This reporter learned from the Kunming Municipal Government Press Office that evidence from the scene of the Kunming “3.01” incident show that this was a major terrorist act plotted and organized single-handedly by Xinjiang separatists.

Around 9pm on March 1st, an incident involving masked assailants cutting down people occurred at the Kunming Train Station. As of 6am on the 2nd, it has caused 29 deaths and around 130 wounded. Civil police shot dead 4 culprits on the scene and arrested 1. At present, work in the investigation of this case is continuing apace. Victims have been placed in multiple hospitals where all levels of medical departments have mobilized their resources to treat the injured. All passenger trains for the night at the Kunming Train Station have already departed, and social order is stable in Kunming.

The “3.01” major violent terrorist incident has caused great losses to the safety of the people. Relevant departments express that they will use resolute and vigorous measures to crack down on the criminal activities of violent terrorists, resolutely protecting the safety of the people.

From NetEase:

kepadegougou [网易北京市网友]:

The culprits who orchestrated this incident are devoid of conscience in their slaughter of innocents, their means utterly cruel, their crime outrageous. What’s most important is that they slaughtered innocent civilians. This is not simply a case of causing injury but the attack of thugs. I can only say that if these people cannot be caught [alive], this bunch of beasts must be killed.

幽默走天下 [网易广东省广州市网友]:

No matter who it is, as long as it is hurting the ordinary common people [innocent civilians], this kind of person must be struck down, struck down with extreme prejudice!!!

郭阳华 [网易黑龙江省网友]:

Crack down on Xinjiang thugs!

等待宪政民主的春天 [网易福建省厦门市网友]:

No mercy for those who hurt the innocent!

网易福建省泉州市网友 ip:36.251.*.*:

Strike down terrorists who target civilians!!!!

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  • vincent

    This is just horrible…

  • Commander Jameson

    Very terrible. Best wishes to all those affected by this tragedy.

  • commander

    If the violence at the Kunming Station is confirmed to be commited by Uighr secessionists as the Chinese authorities speculate, the knife-wielding rampage will backfire against the separatist movement in Xinjang as the Chinese government, bolstered by popular support, will definitely tighten its control on the region, possibly deploying more riot police there for possible eradication of defiant separatists.

    What’s the good of killing and wounding innocent people? Just for more exposure to media for shifting attention to Han Chinese’s alleged crackdown of any separatist enterprises ?

    Acts of terrorism, as a consensus built among countries goes, will not be justified under any circumstances, with sinister nature overshadowing any tenable aims or causes.

    The violence begets another bout of violence against them, and creates negative public sentiments.

    There is no gains from mean terrorist attacks.

    • Joe

      Killing innocents create further Han-Uyghur tension which in turn lead to more crackdowns in Xingjiang, this will radicalize more Uyghurs who may otherwise be apathetic, this is what they want to accomplish in the long-term.

      • xiaode

        Yes, agree. That´s the target!
        Killing is not the target in a terrorist attack. To cause hate and fear is the target!

        And by judging the comments above… it worked very well!

    • the ace of books

      See, but what you’re using here is the logic of a non-fanatic. People who commit acts of terrorism obviously feel that they have something to gain, elsewise they wouldn’t be doing it. And no amount of common logic will work against that: if people have gotten to the point where they believe that mass, unaimed violence will gain them what they’re wanting, either through coercion or through fear, then those people are already, by this coin, fanatical in their beliefs, and unsusceptible to reason.

      This is the reason people don’t negotiate with terrorists: that said negotiations are never and will never be based in common logic, but in a logic of fear, power, and disorder.

      • commander

        Running a movement against the central government armed with money and soldiers requires shrewness in planning and swiftness in execution.

        Though radicals in the bottom rank may be steeped in fanaticism under powrtful indoctrination, the leadership in the separatist movement may predict what steps the central government take to round up the saparatist elements and what ramficiations it brings to them–a forcast that necessitates rational reasoning since a single misstep could jeopardize the entire organization.

        In determining whether the secessionist force has any rationality and reasoning, a distinction needs to be drawn between the executors and the top leaders.

        • Kai

          Sometimes shrewdness simply becomes cold calculation. Rationality doesn’t necessarily put life and avoidance of suffering at the highest of one’s values. Rationality may calcuate that some life and suffering is a cost worth bearing for something valued greater. You may have to be smart to lead a movement against a central government, but it doesn’t mean you have to share the same values as others.

          • linette lee

            Do Uyghur people look Chinese? I am just curious. I met some Tibet people here in USA and they look Chinese except they are darker. Or maybe they are always out in the sun back home. Most Asians are darker or lighter only because they don’t wear sunscreen when they are out in the sun.
            Can you tell if that person is Tibet or Uyghur?
            By the way, that one Tibet girl and two guys I’ve met they are nice looking. They are tan but look like Chinese. Not ugly like how Chinese newspaper always photograph them.

          • linette lee

            She reminds me of 鍾欣潼.

            http://i33.tinypic.com/25knfyv.jpg

          • 5000 years of history

            America gives anyone a visa now if they give you one.

          • linette lee

            What you say! You need some slapping? lol.

          • Mighty曹

            The taller man and taller woman are Uyghurs.

          • linette lee

            no, they are all Chinese except for the taller girl.

          • Zappa Frank

            in china to have a certain ethnicity you just need one parent to be one of them.. she may have had just a great grandparent who was uyghurs and she’ll result as to be considered uyghurs.. You should not take some movie-stars as example. Take Rebiya Kadeer, she is uyghurs, take some normal people who live far from han, who are not mixed.. the difference is evident

          • hailexiao

            FYI sunscreen doesn’t prevent tanning; it only prevents sunburn and DNA damage from UV light.

          • Zappa Frank

            try to use a sunscreen on half face and see if there is no difference.. as more as the protection is high as more the difference is big

          • hailexiao

            I’ve actually tried that, and there was no difference in skin tone on the two sides of my face. As for your second sentence…what were you trying to say?

          • Zappa Frank

            that if you use 50 as protection the difference would be bigger.. if you used 5 the difference is almost none..
            if using 50 there is no difference means that there is no sun…

          • ClausRasmussen

            That depend on the type of sunscreen you’re using. There are two types of UV light: Longer wave UVA and the more energetic shorter wave UVB. UVA tans you using existing melanin in the skin, while UVB stimulates the melanin production.

            The UVB light is usually what causes sunburns among white people, so Western sunscreens targets them, but you can also buy sunscreens (sunblockers) that block both and prevents tanning altogether

          • Zappa Frank

            it burns all people with white skin, regardless their ethnicity. Even Asians can get sunburns

          • linette lee

            Truth, You can still get a tan even with sun screen but a lot slower.

        • Dr Sun

          Damn commander, are you the brains behind 911 and the Taliban.

      • Dr Sun

        Ace tell me what is common logic, or common sense, the longer I live the less of it I see.

    • Germandude

      Violence begets violence. The question is: Who started?

    • President Skroob

      I certainly agree that this act is reprehensible.

      I also do not doubt for an instant that you are WumaoDang.

      • commander

        What makes you think so?

  • Guest

    My heart goes out to all the victims. This is just horrible.
    Meanwhile japanese rightwingers that heard this news are once again spreading conspiracy theories and blaming south koreans:

    http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20140302-00000013-rcdc-cn

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      Chucky, is that you?

  • At least the police responded with bullets this time. Far more effective than cardboard boxes and loud words…… when faced with a knife wielding lunatic.

    • Guest23

      My only question is the response time of the authorities and if there were any local security at the station, almost 4 hours rampage, really hope they address this and make sure nothing like this happens again.

      • anon101

        Yeah,, I was shocked by the response time as well.. 3 hours??? what where they doing, waiting for a green light from beijing???

        • Guest23

          Some news updates make it an hour and half to 2 hours delay, not really sure which source is true but the damage control on how the local authorities handled and reacted to the situation is being misdirected to finger pointing at the craze terrorist, they used tear gas without thinking of civilian casualties, some weibo comments even mention that someone should have done something like run the psychos with a car or something.

  • mr.wiener

    “Without behind the scenes American support, Xinjiang separatists and Tibetan separatists wouldn’t be so bold. We should firmly strike down domestic pro-American forces and pro-American separatists!”
    阿根廷:
    “This was probably ordered by Obama during his meeting with the Dalai Lama, so [the Dalai Lama] plotted this operation upon returning.”

    Oh shit a brick.
    At least most other poster weren’t pointing fingers. A horrible crime and whatever their motivation? This just isn’t smart. Slaughtering a bunch of poor people like this we just bring down a wave of repression in Xinjiung. {Edit} ….but maybe this is the intention.

    • the ace of books

      re: those two comments: Some people are more susceptible to swallowing sensationalist hype hook, line, and sinker, and then regurgitating it. Conspiracy theories are easy because they make the big scary world make sense.

      I’m also curious re: your comment about intention. Are you referring to how these folks are unconfirmably-Xinjiang? Because that is a thing I eyeball every time a story like this comes out.

    • Mighty曹

      Normally I find comments like these to be amusing but now it’s just downright ludicrous. If anything, this should bring China and the US closer in their fight against separatists/insurgents through intelligence cooperations.

      • RothschildIsMoney

        Well that comments may sound exaggerated. But it is naive to think US have ZERO involvement in Tibet and Xinjiang independence movement.

        • ScottLoar

          It is typical to ascribe foreign connivance and unseen powers to the very domestic problems created and aggravated by a government and its own people.

          • Germandude

            Looking at his name, what did you expect other than a conspiracy theory?

          • RothschildIsMoney

            No. It just you being politically correct whiner.

          • ScottLoar

            You have learned some useful phrases but use them incorrectly.

            The problems you experience are of your own making, and it is you who need be politically correct. Of this I’m quite sure; it’s part of your job. No, you are not subtle.

          • RothschildIsMoney

            Again. You just don’t like what you hear. Now you want derail this arguments. Instead.of countering the credibility of my previous point. Btw how this is a part of my job? explain.

          • Rick in China

            I don’t see how Scott’s comment here has anything to do with political correctness. China (Government firstly, people secondly) have constantly called out Japan and USA as the source of domestic issues, or fictional issues…gov’t with the intent of diverting the people’s attention away from themselves and the essentially robbing & pillaging here at home, the people generally out of blindness..but these facts have nothing to do with political correctness.

          • RothschildIsMoney

            But these are facts too and have nothing to do with diverting people’s attention. My point is there is a lot of hypocrisy on both sides. People need to examine from variety of sources, weigh up their value, then make conclusion.
            But then this site has a lot of circle jerks. So i guess it is wrong if i happen to defend China. People just can’t have a logical argument.

          • Rick in China

            log·ic
            ˈläjik/
            noun
            1.
            reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity

            What you present is not a logical argument. There is a difference between FACT and SPECULATION. Your name and your comments suggest you buy into an Alex Jones style rothschild NWO skull and bones to control the world via subterfuge and international manipulation.

            While it’s true that there have been exposed subterfuge and conspiracy on the part of the US government, it is PURELY SPECULATION and NOT fact that the US has any involvement in Tibet or Xinjiang independence movements in modern day. If they did, I’m sure of two things: 1) It would be far more successful, organised, and frequent – targeting higher value targets leading to more of a political and societal mess than these type of knife attack rampages by idiots, and 2) It would be, I think, the largest risk the US would be currently engaged in – seeing as if it were proven to be fact (wouldn’t it be somewhere in wikileaks or snowden documents if it were?) US/China relations would WTFPLODE along with likely a large part of the world. The accusations you’re touting as fact are so incredibly dangerous that it is irresponsible of you, absolutely not logical, to go around spouting them as if they are reality without any evidence beyond your conspiracy theory bone headed derived conclusion to back it up.

            Step down son, you are out of your depth.

          • hailexiao

            You’re not wrong in defending China. You’re wrong in accusing US of involvement in the attacks without any evidence whatsoever. Even a ‘cui bono’ analysis would indicate that it would be insanely stupid for the US to be supporting this sort of thing. Conspiracy theories are 100% circle jerk without solid evidence.

          • Kai

            How is he being politically correct and how is he whining?

        • Mighty曹

          I won’t say there is ZERO involvement in supporting Tibet but I just find it ludicrous to link this particular attack to the US.

    • xiaode

      I think that (causing a counter-attack to xinjiang people and thereby create even more hate and fear on all sides) was exactly the intension of this attack.
      Now the Han will put even more pressure on the Xinjiangnese, wich will cause even more support for these kind of people…
      Look at the comments, it already worked…

  • RagnarDanneskjold

    This is all because China doesn’t ban knife ownership by the public. They need tighter knife control to keep knives out of the hands of criminals and terrorists.

    But I’m sure China will step up its knife control efforts in response, at least temporarily. Remember to bring your passport or ID card if you want to buy a knife at the supermarket.

    • No just let ordinary people bare arms. Be it guns, tasers or pepper spray. It is inexcusable that people have to rely on others for their protection and safety….. hello Australia – are you listening yet? I am an adult – let me decide what is best to protect myself and my family. We aren’t all nut cases!

      • mr.wiener

        I like guns, used to have a bunch of nice ones. But I’m glad I gave them all up back during the amnesty because of the nut cases that are out there. Bolt action is fine by me.

        • “Gave” them back…. wasn’t it a tidy profit for most? Guns bought back for far more than their market value?

          • mr.wiener

            Market value. My brother had a semi automatic shotgun, Italian. He wept bitter tears giving [selling] it back, despite the compensation. I just had a crap M1 carbine and an semi auto 22. got next to nothing.

      • Germandude

        I prefer living in a world in which I assume 99% of the people close-by are not maniacs with a weapon.
        If somebody emotionally freaks out, I prefer a 1% chance of him being armed than a 99% one.

    • LaoShu

      That is already in effect in some of the major cities.. Ever tried to get a butchers knife in Beijing lately ? and that was before last night !

    • Mateusz82

      Exactly! If there was a law against owning knives, then criminals won’t own knives. It’s like how if they had a law against murder, no one would commit murder.

  • The FRED FONG

    Im afraid more ‘unrest’ is likely to become more common in China

    • David

      Why do you bring America into this?

      • Nessquick Choco

        he is .. u know ..

  • Probotector

    The opinion of most netizens:

    “[I] am against any acts of terrorism directing at the common people. No matter what reasons you have, as long as you take on harming innocent people as your method, you are the enemy of humanity, a shameful coward, a criminal that everyone can slay, and a beast…”

    “No matter in which country, in which society, in which time, as long as the violent attack is directed at the innocent… it is definitely a violent terrorist crime.”

    “Defenseless ordinary common people are the most vulnerable group of the world…They are only someone’s father, someone’s wife, someone’s child, and someone’s family. Their whole life is ordinary, but they mean a lot to their families and friends. Please don’t aim your weapon at the ordinary common people. Because every ordinary person is the entire world to his/her family.”

    “Cowards, wimps, scoundrels, this is the truth about terrorists. They have nothing to do with insurgents, they have nothing to do with justice.”

    Now think about all the victims of 9/11, 7/7 and the Boston Bombing whom you laughed at and proclaimed “they got what they deserved”.

    • LaoShu

      Excellent comment, but you know if terrorism is against laowai’s it seems to be ok.. Only the “Herrenrasse” of Han’s is to be considered as the chosen one..

      • Dr Sun

        you get the china smack award of the minute, what nonsense you talk.

    • filabusta

      Didn’t you see? Obama and the Dali Lama planned this attack.

      • xiaode

        hahaha… yes, that was a good one…

      • agree you very much.

        • moop

          congratulations, you are the dumbest person in the room.

          • Progressive Dubstep

            double anal for you mr.moop for saying that !

      • Progressive Dubstep

        and who told you to come here? your mum!

      • Dr Sun

        Idiot

      • cantonizi

        You ain’t lying, even since Obumma and the Dumma Lama’s last other meeting 1,000s of monks started playing with matches and they tried to burn many people but burn themselves.

    • mr.wiener

      Well the shoe is on the other foot, though to be fair the kind of people who said “ha ha you deserved it” are probably like the 2 moronic posters who are blame it on America, not the ones you mentioned.

    • Kai

      A hypothetical that could be argued as petty for its timing was brought up at dinner tonight with a group of mainland Chinese friends: how would it feel if, at this moment, children in classrooms across America were clapping and cheering in response to this news?

      There are ignorant people who laugh at the misfortune of others over petty prejudices and politics just as there are hypocrites who have double-standards and make excuses for them when it comes to these things. Seeing some of the idiotc comments by both Chinese and non-Chinese netizens is really demoralizing.

    • the ace of books

      “whom you laughed at”

      Don’t paint all netizens with the same brush. You can see perfectly clearly here that there are diverse opinions coming from a number of different sources and different approaches. People who make asshole remarks are not necessarily the ones who, here, are speaking with compassion – in fact compassion is often anathema to asshole behavior.

      In short: bad logic, no cookie.

      • Probotector

        I’m not tarring them all with the same brush, I’m pointing out that Chinese commentators online often complain at their own country’s misfortune, and yet scoff at the misfortune of others. I know it’s not everyone and I never said it was.

        • Kai

          I suppose you feeling you had to point this behavior out when it unfortunately isn’t really rare with non-Chinese commenters as well might make you seem kinda petty. This is why I worried that the hypothetical I mentioned above could also be seen as petty for its timing.

          • Probotector

            So it’s petty to point out hypocrisy?

          • Kai

            It’s all in the timing and tact.

            If someone you know to have laughed at the misfortune of others is now bemoaning others laughing at their misfortune, then it might be appropriate to point out with as much tact and as little sneering as you can that maybe how they feel now is how others felt when their misfortunes were met with gloating.

            If however you generalize gloating onto Chinese people and now use this incident to sneer at a hypocrisy you generalized onto them, then yeah, that can be petty.

            There’s a difference between responding directly to a hypocrite, and using a tragedy to sneer at a group of people you don’t know because you suspect hypocrisy by some.

            There’s a difference between highlighting an obnoxious gloating comment and criticizing it, and highlighting a bunch of actually fairly normal comments and then suggesting these people are hypocrites without any evidence except that they share an ethnicity with some people who might actually be hypocrites. Guilt by association is, yeah, often petty.

            Was there a way for you to have made your point and observation without seeming so motivated to prove a point? Against an entire nationality? Over past grievances? By individuals? Grievances that just about every nationality has had idiots commit with misleading vividness?

          • Progressive Dubstep

            you want a candy for getting that right? YEAH BUDDY

        • lienlaopei

          yes you are tarring them all with the same brush, unless you can identify each and every one of them practicing double standards is the same person.

        • Progressive Dubstep

          pretty fucking sure every country does except your utopian motherland. Pardon my french but you are truly an typical western asshole who genelize like a instantanenous drop of a beat.

    • Guest23

      Dumb tribal mentality + sadistic and apathetic internet point of view, it’s pretty damn depressing that idiots don’t care what other people think and feel, can say anything they want without impunity.

      • Kai

        I’m all for free speech…and a mainstream majority that reliably provides feedback and shaming for any idiocy borne from that free speech. Unfortunately, given how increasingly easy it is to segregate our echo chambers, jury’s still out on how “reliable” the mainstream majority is.

        • Guest23

          Pretty much like the 4chan vs Reddit on comment moderation, still demoralizing but can tell myself it’s only the loud minority.

      • Progressive Dubstep

        it’s the fucking internet bro, what do you expect.

    • Marcus Black

      Well unlike America, China wasn’t supporting islamists in Afghanistan to wage jihad against the Soviets (who probably would have been better for the country). China wasn’t getting involved in every damn fucking conflict around the world. China wasn’t overthrowing democratically elected governments as happened in Iran(100% proven) and many other countries. China wasn’t going around pissing off Muslims in the middle east. 9/11 happened because America was busy pissing off Muslims in the middle east. That was their retaliation. Or maybe it was all an inside job. You never know these things. The American government is one of the shadiest. They are so shady you don’t even think they are. If you look at China’s past, you will see the government tends to stay away from internal matters of other countries and will instead trade with them. That’s why the Chinese history is so long. Because they have good foreign policies unlike the US of A. China was able to coexist with the Muslim empire when it was at it’s height. Because the Muslims probably respected the Chinese for their good foreign policy. I love them for that too. Don’t bother using the Korean war to counter my argument. China had all the rights in the world to interfere because it was right at her borders. Every country has a right to defend itself from being encircled by the likes of America. America would do the same thing if China orchestrated unrest in Mexican and supported the opposition. And you know what, I would support America 100% in that instance. Obviously China is too diligent. The chickens will always come home to roost… *mocking laughter*

      • Probotector

        “9/11 happened because America was busy pissing off Muslims in the middle east. That was their retaliation”.

        So innocent Americans deserve to die for the imperialism of their government? Or are you going to say they do because they elected that government?

        Although You are right in your general argument that avoiding foreign conflicts brings less trouble for a nation, your examples are factually inaccurate.

        Firstly, “The Muslim Empire”? Who was that? Do you mean the Moors, or the Persians or the Arabs or the Turks? There were several Empires based on Islam throughout history.

        In any case, you can’t say that the Chinese never had any conflict with Islam. What about the Mongol conquests of the middle ages? Now, it’s debatable whether the Mongol conquerors were actually Chinese, though Chinese people claim they were, but the issue at the heart of these attacks comes from Uighur unrest because they feel they are being persecuted and illegitimately governed by China. Like Tibet, Xinjiang/East Turkestan has proclaimed it’s desire more than once for independence from a China which historically conquered them long ago, and has had numerous rebellions since then, so you can’t say that China has always had a good relationship with the Muslim world. Also, you do know that Muslim extremists will attack non-Muslims even if they are no threat to them?

        You cite a foreign policy of non-interference, when isolation is a more apt description, and it’s been this isolation, both political and geographical that had kept China out of conflict for so long. However, this somewhat failed them after the Western imperialists arrived in the 19th century, and China only survives today because of the will of its people to struggle on. Nevertheless, in recent years China has acted more imperialist than anyone, with their insistence on holding on to these separatist territorials that want independence (Tibet Xinjiang and so forth), their designs on island territories in the South China Sea, and their involvement in the plunder of Africa.

        You say “Every country has a right to defend itself from being encircled by the likes of America.” True, but every country in Asia also has the right to defend itself from oppression and exploitation from China, and they mostly rely on American assistance to do that.

        Just thought I’d point all that out, but whatever the events of history may be, none of it has anything to do with my original comment. How can some Chinese people, not all but some, sit there and say “Americans deserve to suffer from terrorism but we don’t”?, when in truth, no one deserves to suffer from it.

        • Marcus Black

          That’s the “beauty” of democracy. You get to vote your leaders to represent you, therefore you are responsible for their actions. Only people who live under an undemocratic government can blame the government. If you vote them into power, you’re just as responsible. Simple as that.

          • Rick in China

            Oh my, so naive, so childish.
            You’re so disconnected, “you” get to vote, so “you” are responsible – do you really think the majority of leaders in elected positions 100% represent their constituents? If that were true, the world would be a far different place. You can’t possibly believe that because we’re given the option to vote between a couple of big party candidates or occasionally random people who have no hope due to being outspent by about a billion dollars, that individuals in a country are responsible for the actions of that leadership, and deserve what happens to them individually because of the foreign policy decisions made at the top, can you?

          • Marcus Black

            Hey that’s what democracy is all about. So much freedom. You can even criticise the president and get away with it hahaha. The represents the government in democracy. It is what it is guy.

          • ex-expat

            Wow…so what if I consistently vote for the party that loses? Am I still responsible, and do I still deserve the consequences?

          • Kai

            @disqus_8wRjmJ1NeI:disqus @rickinchina:disqus @Ryu

            I think everyone involved in this discussion knows there is such a thing as “degrees” of responsibility.

            If you subscribe to a democratic (republican) political system, you are indeed to a degree more responsible for the actions of your elected representatives and government. The very definition and nature of democracy is to promote, uphold, and protect this causal relationship between the government and the governed. The ideal of the system is exactly that everyone is beholden to how the governed are governed. If you don’t like something, you literally have the personal responsibility to mobilize for change. That is enshrined in the very ideology.

            If you subscribe to an autocratic political system, are you likewise to a degree less responsible for the actions of the government that rules over you. There is far less a direct, causal process and institution by which you are are given influence and power over governance. Again, this is by definition and nature.

            To be strict, everyone is ultimately to a degree responsible for the actions committed in their name. If you don’t think those actions represent you, it is ultimately your duty to yourself to stop others from presenting their actions as on your behalf. The notion of social contract is that we are to a degree responsible not only for what we do but also for what we acquiece to, what we allow, and what we tolerate. If people can understand why someone who fails to act can be blameworthy, then you can understand why we are all ultimately responsible for our governments, because it is our action or inaction that controls their existence and representativeness of our will. Democracy makes that responsibility, liability, DUTY much more clear than autocracy, but a ruler is only a ruler because you allow him to rule.

            The issue here is not that there is responsibility in some cases or others, it is about how much responsibility we are accusing others of bearing and how REASONABLE it is in the practical world. It is MORE reasonable to say a citizen of a democractic government bears MORE responsibility for the actions of their elected government than it is to say the subject of an nonelected autocracy because that is an honest recognition of the different natures of the political systems.

            It is howeer NOT reasonable to say that citizen of a democractic government is responsible for knowing and approving of every act and policy conducted in his name because that is dishonestly ignoring the very nature of their political system. That said, saying you voted for the other guy is also not much of an excuse because you subscribed to the political system of majority rule BEFORE you subscribed to supporting any party or any candidate. The system exists with your support and you agreed to support the results of the system’s processes. If you voted for the other guy and this guy does something you disagree with, you know you have recourse. You know you can mobilize opposition, as protected by the system. You know even that you can impeach and remove the guy you didn’t vote for. At the end of the day, you simply can’t wipe your hands entirely clean. Unlike the subject of an autocracy, you are that much less subjugated to the whims of the ruling regime because the system itself put power and thus responsibility in your hands.

            And yet most people understand there’s a difference between the cubicle monkey in the Twin Towers versus the US government’s foreign policy makers. The cubicle monkey citizen may not be entirely absolved of responsibility for the actions of their government, but it is irrational to believe he is the most direct cause of whatever your grievance is. No, to attack that person is not to solve your problem but to use his life as a tool, as a means to an end that MIGHT solve your problem. Terrorism has always been about using the governed to pressure those that govern because the latter is doing something to you that you don’t like.

            The people who wanted to impeach Bush for the Iraq War understood their system and their responsibiity to the system. In many ways, it is even a sort of patriotism, insofar as “America” is equated with a specific political ideology and system.

            Why is that we can joke with mainlanders envying Taiwan living conditions that it’s actually their own fault for going with Mao? Because at some level, people do actually understand that tolerating something means a measure, a degree, of responsibility.

            But not all degrees are equal. Instead of black and whiting it into responsible or not responsible at all, let’s perhaps haggle over what is a reasonable amount of responsibility to assign and feel ashamed of?

            Democracy makes it easier for you to take pride in the accomplishments of your nation. It also makes it easier for you to be blamed for its failures and shortcomings. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Terrorists understand your relationship with your government even if you conveniently forget it. You are the government’s power base, and if you can be shaken, the top will shake as well.

          • Marcus Black

            It’s democracy. hahahahaha. We all want democracy. Democracy democracy democracy. hahaha Your government forces that crap down every other country’s throat. If they resist the US army rolls in to straighten things out and spread democracy. So much freedom. hahaha

          • Progressive Dubstep

            what consequence? it only applies when a political party to do stupid things like creating you.

          • Lwcasu

            “Democracy”? Who said America was a democracy, rather I think the better word would be constitutional republic. Marcus, your ignorance is festering. Not to mention your a troll. You don’t understand American politics if you think we are a democracy, and do you seriously think we all vote?

          • Marcus Black

            Okay then explain why your government tries to force democracy on others? I do know America is not what you would call a democracy, however the elections are democratic in nature. Also you should probably forget about your constitution because your president pretty much sh*t on it day in day out. You haven’t and will not do anything about it.

          • Wodowsan

            There has never been a war between two democracies. There have been wars between monarchies, one party republics, slave states , dictatorships, and oligarchies. All of these other systems of governments have fought wars with democracies and each other, but two free democratic societies have never gone to war against each other. When the local people have an actual say in what their government does, and there is a free press to monitor and critic a government it very difficult for a government to make war on other free democratically elected governments.

        • Progressive Dubstep

          US asked for it

          • mr.wiener

            I’m going to ask you nicely now to tone down some of your comments and stop with some of the insults [you have used in other posts], If you don’t agree with some people…fine, and be sure to explain why. Otherwise you are being disruptive.

          • Progressive Dubstep

            oky, i cool with it

        • Fumanchu

          please correct me if im wrong but didn’t people of like many nationalities die on 9/11, any way I’m sure they were not all from the USA.
          Ghengis Chan (the mongols) were not muslim they were saman.
          In the 400 years since the creation of the USA, the U.S has not had a decade that it not been at war with either itself or another country, you cannot say that of China.
          so looks like you pretty much got it all wrong.

          • Wodowsan

            What decade did China not have internal unrest or a conflict with another nation?

            For the first half of the 20th century you had warlords fighting each other, the Chinese civil war until 1949, in the 1950’s China invaded Tibet, went into Korea, In the 1960’s they were involved in Vietnam, they had artillery duels with the Soviets, A border war with India, the Cultural Revolution. In the 1970’s they were involved in Cambodia, Nepal, and had the Sino-Vietnamese conflict of 1979 were they lost the same number of men in one month the American’s lost in 12 years of fighting in Vietnam. Then there was of course Tiananmen square in 1989, dealings of unrest in Tibet and Uygur, not to mention all the crack downs on local protests through out China due to land being taken from the people, now the military threats to claim the whole of the South China Sea and parts of the East China Sea.

            Not saying America has had a better record, but China is not without blood on its hands too. China for most of its history has been an empire. Empires are not created by people holding hands and singing kumbaya. They are created by armies invading other kingdoms and oppressing any opposition to their rule.

      • mimime

        omg will you marry me ?

      • Eileithyia

        China coexist with Muslim Empire? At it’s height? Who were they? China didn’t even know much about Muslim until the Mongols Empire conquered by China Muslim. China didn’t pissed off muslim, but they pissed off Buddhism in Tibet and other religious groups like Falun Gong. They jail and kill Falun Gong people

        • Progressive Dubstep

          falun gong is a cult ,end of the story.

          • Phil_Hoffman

            Prove it, I bet you cannot. End of story body!!!!

          • Progressive Dubstep

            hello guest, yes i can.

      • Zappa Frank

        china supported Islamists in Afghanistan against CCCP….

        is not something hidden:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Foreign_involvement_and_aid_to_the_mujahideen

        The Chinese People’s Liberation Army trained and supported the Afghan mujahideen during the war. The training camps were moved from Pakistan into China itself. Anti-aircraft missiles, rocket launchers and machine guns, valued at hundreds of millions, were given to the mujahideen by the Chinese. Chinese military advisors and army troops were present with the Mujahidin during training.[127]

        • Marcus Black

          I know. Because Afghanistan is in China’s borders. Also at that time China and Soviets weren’t on the best of terms. Therefore to prevent the Soviets occupying Afghanistan and flanking China on the West they got involved. However unlike America the Mujahideen didn’t turn on them. That say a lot.

          • Zappa Frank

            What is the difference in what America did and what China did in Afghanistan? (I mean during soviet ‘occupation’)..
            CCCP ‘flanking China on the west’ invading Afghanistan? Afghanistan has but a tiny border with China form where is almost impossible to pass from.. besides at the time CCCP had all the other countries (tagikistan, kazakistan, and so on )and was already at the west border of China.
            Mujahideen turned on americans? When? Where? Afghanistan’s mujahideen did something to americans prior the arrive of US army? I think they would likely do the same to china if china moves the army there…

      • Wodowsan

        In the past 50 years China has had shooting conflicts and full out wars with almost every single one of it neighbors, Soviets, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Tibet. They are now threatening all the nations in the South China Sea and East China Sea.

    • dpark

      I’ve heard an American call Africa a country. Therefore all Americans must be dumb.

    • Phil_Hoffman

      Yes, I remember one chinese guy in a minivan in Henan telling me that 7/7 could never happen in China, and that China is VERY safe and in England the security is not good. YET, London pulled off the olympics not only securely, but aside from 7/7 has never had nutters with swords slashing people at a railway station. Bad stuff could happen anywhere, but the Chinese can no longer claim the upper hand. I’m sure they will use this, just like the US did, to impose a new anti terrorism law and curtail freedoms.

      • Progressive Dubstep

        7/7 is different than this case, how much western propaganda did you take before making that stupid comment? China is very safe than England in many aspect. Impose new anti terrorism law and curtail freedoms? do you think the 97% is afriad of the Muslism terrorist? NEIN

        • Phil_Hoffman

          Nothing personal, but the chinese can no longer claim the upper hand. Yes, I AGREE I feel safer walking the streets of China, but things like this and the shenzhen meat cleaver case put things into perspective. A knife is a tool, a weapon,just like any other. Again, resolutely not personal.

    • Progressive Dubstep

      When did Majorty Chinese ever laugh at 7/7 or at the Boston Bombing, I will never laugh at a tragtic. your mentality aint even human.

    • Doge Wallace

      I remember even some Americans laughing about 9/11 ON THE DAY OF 9/11. I was on the west coast, and when I woke up, I went online to a forum and saw people posting pics of the 9/11 attacks, including a black man who had jumped off the building — some *American* thought it would be funny to post the caption, “AHAHAHA LOOK AT THAT NIGGER FALL TO HIS DEATH”. That was just the worst one, but there were other bad ones.

    • Mr.li

      what about 2 millions killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    • Dr Sun

      “Now think about all the victims of 9/11, 7/7 and the Boston Bombing whom you laughed at and proclaimed “they got what they deserved”.

      I must have missed the 3.2 billion posts saying that, can you post the links ?

      • Probotector

        Please, don’t be so pedantic. I’m not talking about the whole populatin am I? It’s obvious I’m talking about the members of the Chinese internet community who said these things during the attacks in the U.S. Go look at the CS stories on the Boston bombing or the death of Bin Laden, and you’ll see what I’m talking about Now, 3.2 billion? Where does that figure come from? Why does everything have to be proven by statistics in order to be believed on the internet?

  • Are there any photos showing them as native Xinjiang? It’s not a bunch of people who finally broke after being butt raped one too many times by local developers or govt officials with respect to their farms/land/houses?

    I am thinking of that South Park episode.. “Some African or hispanic looking guy..”

    • The FRED FONG

      Confucius say…we will never know the truth

    • Wenz

      people generally pissed off at the system don’t get together in a group of ten and stab people…there’s not enough motivation and anger to unite them…

    • the ace of books

      Actually, re: this, I can think of several reasons:

      + (easiest and most logical) the photographer didn’t get close enough/clear enough shots
      + (also pretty logical) they’re being blocked
      + not enough of the terrorists “look Xinjiang enough” – ie, they have enough Han features that they can’t immediately be visually labeled ‘the enemy’
      + the photos you see are cherrypicked for maximum emotional reaction
      + the photos you don’t see are carefully filtered
      + the folks covering the report are getting proceeds and want their photos up, not anyone else’s, even though someone else’s might be more informative
      + blurry cameraphone shots
      + easier to hate what one doesn’t see

      Finally: we-the-public are never going to hear their real reasons for doing this. Like as not they did have a legit grievance of something or things that spun out of control, were badly-handled, or that made them snap. But we won’t know, because it’s not in the nature of the beast to let those things be known.

      • Kai

        I saw an image of ten headshots purported to be the attackers but it was immediately suspect because there was not a single female among them. Other Chinese netizens also quickly dismissed it as false information, suggesting it was related to a past incident or being dishonestly conflated. As far as I know, they only have 5 people to identify and haven’t even figured out who the rest are.

        Joe says he feels CCTV is being careful with their reporting on this, fearing possible rioting or mob violence. After all, it’s not exactly something we haven’t seen before in the wake of such things, in China or elsewhere.

        China’s government and media are in a tough spot regarding reporting of this. On one hand, people are going to accuse them of scapegoating and fostering ethnic nationalism and strife. On the other, if they don’t report what they can, people are going to accuse them of pulling the wool over their people’s eyes yet again. There are so many ways to read into how this is being handled or what is being presented depending on what your preexisting biases are.

  • David

    I read this in the news this morning. Peter, great job getting this translated and posted to CS.

    • Peter Barefoot

      It’s the very least that I can do.

      • mr.wiener

        Thanks mate.

      • the ace of books

        Yeah, thank you. I’d heard of it yesterday but couldn’t find anything, so I appreciate both the breadth and volume of information you were able to provide. Excellent!

  • Taoran

    Terrible story, so much suffering :-(

    User “Flughafen-Polizei” (why this person has a German alias is beyond me) has this to say at the end of his comment: “I support the government in using all inhumane methods in dealing with them, including guilt by association. Let them have a taste of how bitter it is to lose their families.”
    So… this person first strongly condemns hurting the innocent, and in the next sentence suggests killing the (probably) innocent families of the perpetrators? Wow.

    The authorities blame Xinjiang terrorists: “Evidence at the crime scene showed that the Kunming railway station terrorist attack was carried out by Xinjiang separatist forces,”
    Without giving further details on the nature of this “evidence” I’m not buying it just yet. It’s possible that there is a connection to Xinjiang, but let’s wait a bit before jumping to conclusions.

    Oh yeah and “ordered by Obama” and “american support”… haha, good one. Who said Chinese don’t understand sarcasm?

    • filabusta

      Yeah and with such a free and open media we should see the evidence released in the next few days.

    • the ace of books

      “Evidence at the crime scene showed that the Kunming railway station terrorist attack was carried out by Xinjiang separatist forces,”

      The evidence is that they left some sand on the floor and left a bag of raisins behind.

  • David

    Why is there always one comment about harvesting the organs of the guilty people? I mean I am all for the death penalty for a person who has gone through the proper procedures but just kill them, no need to get ghoulish.

    • don mario

      because that is what will happen?

  • FYIADragoon

    A loss of life is tragic regardless of the reasons, BUT……If you actually created a means for the Uighurs, or anyone for that matter, in China to actually have their grievances reasonably addressed in some shape or form, I believe that these attacks wouldn’t be such a regular occurrence. This terrorism stems from desperation and religious corruption.

    DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND THIS AS CONDONING THE ATTACK

    • mr.wiener

      I’m guessing there are outside forces at work here. This is pretty much the first of these incidents inside china , unless you count that sad act bunch of Uygers in the blown up van in Tienanmen a month or two ago. I’m thinking more a long the lines of a bunch of foreign jihaddis who see a growth market in Xinjiang.

      • Nessquick Choco

        ” market ” … can’t describe it better :D :D LOL

      • FYIADragoon

        Separatists have long been active in acts of violence across Xinjiang though. This is one of the few larger scale incidents that I’ve heard of, but this is one of many attacks, if you’re not counting scale. I would say the uptick in scale of the attacks suggests your point of religious extremists having a role though. Ironically enough, these netizens attacking America should actually be encouraging their government to cooperate with America and exchange notes on terrorists if they actually want to stop these groups. I wouldn’t be surprised if the intel exchange between America and Russia didn’t have some role in the safety of the Sochi Games.

      • the ace of books

        “I’m thinking more a long the lines of a bunch of foreign jihaddis who see a growth market in Xinjiang.”

        I don’t know if I’d put it that way. The causes are different, the roots are different, and, in the nationalistic vein, why would they fight for people not their own?

        • mr.wiener

          Same reason they’ve set up shop [or local groups] in The Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Somalia, Chad, Yeman Syria and many other places. Have Islamiic revolution, will travel.

  • mr.wiener

    Still we didn’t get many massacres after port Arthur did we?

  • Guest

    read the top comments by japanese netizens.

  • markus peg

    The “hacked up people” pictures should be in a hide/unhide tag to click to be seen.

    This is a sad story and i agree attacks on innocent civilians regardless of reason or race is despicable.

    Why do some of them blame Obama and the USA? It seems like the USA and or Japan get dragged into every debate. I would like to know how many people voted up such toll like comments.

    • Kai

      Conspiracy theories and theorists are never in short supply on the internet.

      • the ace of books

        I do have to say: not just on the internet. There’s people I’ve met who’d regurgitated to me the worst of these kinds of sentiments – usually in a hurt, unbelieving tone, and then asked me why America is always bullying China.

        • Kai

          I agree, idiocy is not confined to the internet.

    • FYIADragoon

      Because tinfoil hat conspiracies. If this was the CIA’s work, it would have been far more targeted and deadly.

  • Sydney

    Uighurs separatists’ attacks are very likely to become more and more common, the worst thing is that these people are already part of China, absolutely nothing can be done to stop them before they infiltrate the country, there is no border, no checkpoint, no customs, no wall, no fence, … between them and the rest of China.

  • Kai

    Joe, above, seems to be suggesting that this was done with the conscious intent that it would make the situation worse for other Uighurs and therefore radicalize them into ultimately joining and thus strengthening the separatist movement.

  • Joe

    Guns are not hard to find in China at all, if you have the right means you can even get a hunting license, what is impossible to obtain however are bullets for different types of guns.

  • Jobjed

    Muslims in China have generally been at peace with the rest of the empire throughout history, I’m confused as to why there’s been a recent surge in violence between Han and Hui.

    • Joe

      First they are not Hui, also Xingjiang has not been a restive region in the past several decades, nor peaceful even in antiquity.

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        And this is more of an ethnic tention than religious, no?

    • Kai

      Yeah, don’t confuse Hui (回) with Uighurs (维吾尔 wei wu er). Similar sounding but not the same.

    • linette lee

      Muslims can’t live with Buddhists, or Christians, or Jews.

      • FilthySwit

        I’m starting to think that they shouldn’t live at all.

        • linette lee

          I really think China and USA should not get involved with any Muslim countries. Let them be and leave them alone. Don’t send army or have any business companies or have anything to do with them. They need to have their own practice and politics. It’s their countries, their politics, their own people. Stay away from them and let them be then the world will be in peace.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            That is all well and nice, but would China want to give independences to the Uygers? no.

            Will China stop its businesses getting involved in Africa? No.

            Countries have to deal with each other. Usually, the leaders of countries will prefer leaders of other countries that are favourable to them. So USA will support despots and dictators when it suits them. When it doesn’t they’ll condemn them. An example can be used with Saddam or the current leaders of Uzbekistan of the other ‘stan’ countries in that region.

      • mr.wiener

        Fundamentalist muslims are not good at living with other muslims come to that.

        • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

          Fundamentalist muslims, or Extremists (I prefer this term than the former) have this mentality “It is our way or you are a non-believer“ which excludes many Muslims themselves. Shia is of course the obvious one. Then there are the Sufis. They would not consider rappers such as Lupe Fiasco or Lowkey as Muslims. There are large groups of people they would not consider Muslims that are Muslims.

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        “Muslims can’t live with Buddhists, or Christians, or Jews.” – I am going to take this comment as you being shocked by the actions of a group of people who are Muslim rather than something you actually believe.

        Buddists in Burma and Sri Lanka are attacking Muslims. In Burma, it is because they are seen as people who have settled there and not Burmese while in Sri Lanka, the winners of their civil war see it as a way of making the whole country follow one faith.

        I don’t really have to comment on Christians and Israel’s action more than enough can help anyone understand why they get the response from the Palestinians (who are majority Muslim).

        If you want to generalise this issue, we do know that Hui Muslims are assimilated into China by the Uyghers are not and see China as a colonialist. Tibetans also see China in the same vain.

      • don mario

        wrong

    • commandergreen

      Muslims are a problem where ever they are, iin the middle east, in china, in russia, in the UK, in the US everywhere.

      • The same thing was said about Jews a century ago.

    • don mario

      because they are getting massively fucked over and oppressed?? that would be the obvious answer. nobody really knows what was behind this actually.

  • Anus Presley

    Anyone else find it strange, and slightly warped, that many people in those photos look to be going about their business buying tickets e.t.c in the presence of dead bodies?

    • anon101

      i didnt even notice, but now i have looked again,, damn….guess these people really dont give a damn about others…

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        Or they do, but have no time to stand around gawping at dead people when they can’t do much about it.

        Help the injured?
        They might get accused of being one of the attackers (guilty until proven innocent and the suing culture in China).

        So, you can either stop and stare while doing nothing or see what happened and carry on with your life as you alone cannot do anything about it.

  • Zen my Ass

    Whatever the perpetrators aimed to achieve, be it to tighten the bonds between their people or to to push them to take a stand, killing common people will alienate them the sympathy of every decent human being and potential supporter. If as a minority fighting for you rights, you want to be different or better from your oppressor, you should start using different means of communication. If it’s the violence you’re fighting, don’t resort to violence: you’re not going to be any better than your enemy in the end.

  • Mateusz82

    How about gun ownership in countries that aren’t America? What are the rates in the Czech Republic, or Switzerland? Y

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      Different mentality. Americans have the “Shoot first, what are these questions you are asking about?” mentality.
      Switzerland is “I have a gun, you have a gun, we all have a gun, so lets keep them where they are and talk about our problems in a Neutral setting.” I don’t know about the Czechs, but apparently Iceland has more guns per person than the US and they are more like, “Is that your gun, or are you just happy to see me?”

      • Mateusz82

        That’s kinda my point. It’s not as simple as “More guns = more crime”, since there are other factors, such as mentality.

  • Tamil Tiger

    China has itself to blame. It has been suppressing the people of xinjiang and Tibet. Its time for revenge and they should work together.

  • Wodowsan

    I am sorry to hear about innocent people being attacked like this. An unarmed populous is mere sheep for slaughter for the wolves of the world. Best to be a ram than a sheep.

  • Wodowsan

    I remember when I first arrived in China, and being told by Chinese how many of their friends, family members, co-workers, and classmates were happy that 9/11 happened. I am from New York and know people that were there that day, I know families that did lose loved ones in the Twin Towers. I could not believe how callous and heartless too many Chinese could be.

    I also remember too many Neitizens being happy when the Earthquake hit Japan.

    I hope if any good comes out this terrible event is that it generates true understanding among the more Chinese that no matter what nation people are from, most are just simple people wanting to support their families.
    I fear though this lesson will be lost by too many.

    • Insomnicide

      Right now, many westerners hoping to see China balkanized and weakened and many Turkics who want a pan-Turkic state are probably cheering.

      It really depends on the context and the people.

      • Wodowsan

        To be very honest with you, most Americans,do not give China a second thought. I fear too many Americans do not even really know where China is and can not tell the difference between a Chinese, Japanese, and Korean.

        The comments on this site have been mostly by those who seem to have firsthand experience of living and working in China. Most of us are reacting to the prejudices we have encountered in China as non-Chinese.

        I personally do not know of any Americans joyful in this attack. Do you? Most Americans nowadays get their news only from Comedy Central, and most likely do not even know of this event. It is hard for such shows to make this humorous, so it is not reported to their audiences.

        Americans are not obsessed with none-Americans. As the Chinese seem obsessed with Japanese and Americans. There is no chip on their shoulder due to a social complex that they have been “humiliated” by another nation in the past.

        Even when it comes to America losing the Vietnam war there is not a campaign to blame the Vietnamese for humiliating America. The blame of the loss of the Vietnam War is heavily placed on Americans themselves. By losing the war, or for having in engaged in the war at all, it was America that humiliated America, not Vietnam. It is very different attitude here than in China, where it is always blame others for your own shortcomings.

        The majority of Americans do not feel joy in the misery of others, especially the innocent (all I am sure their most be some sick people here too that do.) You forget, many American like “the Banana” and “Blind man’s guide dog” (according to the Chinese state sponsored media’s description of Ambassador Gary Locke) are of Chinese decent.

        “Only liars think everyone is a liar and only bigots think everyone is a bigot too.” – A Joe Saying.

        • Insomnicide

          Actually many Americans do know about China, and they hate China. They still think China is communist in practice, and they oppose everything in China’s affairs. This is coming from personal encounters of Americans.

          Americans aren’t particularly obsessed with none-Americans, that’s true. But bring up a nationality or ethnicity in a conversation and many Americans will find a way to hate them. This is especially true for very exotic/westernised nationalities like Arabs, Chinese, Slavics.

          “Even when it comes to America losing the Vietnam war there is not a campaign to blame the Vietnamese for humiliating America. The blame of the loss of the Vietnam War is heavily placed on Americans themselves.”

          That’s because it was fellow American hippie protesters who halted the Vietnam war. The American army were winning in Vietnam. They had driven the NVA back and held their ground. Vietnamese people had nothing to do with the loss of the war really.

          All in all, you must be delusional if you think Americans are really pure and kind hearted people. Every nationality has it’s arseholes and idiots. America isn’t running low in that department. While there are very kind American people, they are few and far between.

          • Wodowsan

            You are correct that Americans have asses too, all humans do. But there is no whole sale hatred towards the Chinese as you applying. Their is not state sponsored propaganda to hate Chinese as you do have in China to hate Japanese, and Americans at times (depending on the political winds.)
            China may not be the North Korean or Maoist Communism any more, but it is still a communist state. The Party still controls and owns major production and resources. They still own and control the banks, the internet, the education system, the telephone companies, the power companies, the fuel companies. They still own the land under your feet even if you may be allowed to own your apartment for only 70 years. They also still own and control the media, have a Department of Propaganda and wholesale censorship. Other political parties are also illegal. If that is not a communist state, or at least a tyrannical socialist state than I do not know what is.
            You realize that the Party is not China. Disliking or hating the Party doesn’t mean a person dislikes or hates the Chinese. If I hate the Socialist in America, does that mean I hate Americans? If I hate American Nazi’s does it mean I hate Americans?
            If Americans really hated the Chinese, as you are saying, we should be happy the Party is standing on your necks. Why should we care if the Chinese people have no real freedoms, if we hate the Chinese so much?
            I have a feeling your encounters of Americans that you say “hate China” are actually Americans that oppose the Chinese Communist Party.
            Disapproving of Beijing policies does not mean you hate China. That is the same as accusing those that oppose Obama’s policies as racist or those that oppose the Republican Party as anti-American. It is a common tactic of ideologues to try to silence those they cannot oppose with reasonable arguments.
            I do agree with you that the U.S. did not lose Vietnam on the battlefield, and it was lost on the home front., but nether the less the result were the same, the Americans lost the conflict, North Vietnam took the South. I can assure you that the North Vietnamese were very much aware of the anti-war movement in the States at the time and used to win the conflict. Many of their attacks were not orchestrated for military victory but for propaganda purposes to help defeat the Americans on the home front. It was a strategy they used wisely to win the war.
            Your statement that there are very few kind Americans tells me you have never been to America. My experience of those that have visited the States has been just the opposite. I still think you are taking disagreement to the Party’s policies as ant-Chinese. Which it is not. They are not the same thing. Do you actually know any Americans that are happy that these innocent people were murdered?
            Have there been any American editors saying China deserved this? I am sure you will find Americans that may support the separates, and there are many Americans that do support an independence of Tibet, among the few that even know about Tibet. But that is not the same as supporting the actions your own domestic Muslim terrorist have just committed.
            If anything their actions have hurt their cause in the public eye. Which is why the Party is reporting this story. Where so much other domestic unrest in China is not reported.

          • Insomnicide

            I can’t believe you’ve never met racist Americans who hate Chinese people. No, they do not hate the party. They hate the people as a whole. Even Chinese immigrants, even people who just happen to be of Chinese descent.

            I’m referring to that, and i have encountered a few people who do. They don’t hate just the communist party, and even people who do hate the communist party still can hate Chinese people. And they do. They blame the fault of whatever Mao’s failures or the party’s human rights abuses on the common Chinese person. This is not uncommon, especially on the internet where many people have voiced their opinions just like so.

            As for propaganda, don’t believe that America isn’t under propaganda as well. There has been a media-driven movement which constantly antagonizes China. While the government plays the middleman, the masses and the media certainly opposes China’s existence. When people speak of the ‘Axis of Evil’ often China is included in the lineup. In political and social matters regarding China, i’ve heard the most negative comments come from American and Japanese people. There’s very little government propaganda, but media propaganda is still propaganda. And this is all done to further American dominance in the Asia-Pacific region.

            Again, there are kind and open minded Americans but remember that it is a nation of 300,000 and growing so I don’t see why you find it hard to believe there’s bound to be a lot of arseholes. I’d rather meet those kind Americans you speak of, i do. But unfortunately i’ve only met a lot of awful people from America so far. My anecdotal evidence is as good as yours so this argument is pretty pointless.

          • hailexiao

            You must be in a rather…unique part of the USA to experience such hate. Or maybe something is real screwed up about your social circle. Where are you located?

            I’ve encountered plenty of ignorance and hostility (mostly from black & latino people) but very little outright racism or hatred in the US.

          • Wodowsan

            I have honestly never met an American who hates Chinese. I am not saying there aren’t any. but I really do not know anyone that does. I grew up in America. If anything I grew up with most Americans I knew respecting the Chinese for the work ethic , for their culture, and their value of education.

            I do know people who oppose the Communist Party in America, especially Chinese Americans who, they themselves or their family members, had suffered under the Mao Regime or were at Tiananmen Square.

            You sound like someone who hates Americans because they won’t tow the Party line. “They blame the fault of whatever Mao’s failures or the party’s human rights abuses on the common Chinese person.”

            That does not make any sense. They are blaming the Chinese for abusing the Chinese? Again you are mixing the Party with the people. They are blaming the Party for abusing the Chinese people they are not blaming the Chinese for abusing themselves. If they really hated the Chinese people they should celebrate and cheer that Mao’s policies killed and ruined so many Chinese lives, not condemn it. Can you see the illogic in your argument?

            You really need to learn to separate the Party from the Chinese people. I am assuming you are a Party member and it difficult for you to do so. If you really love China, you need to.

            From the way you talk about the few Americans you seemed to have actually met, I fear you hated them before you even talked to them. You seemed filled with preconception about Americans and Japanese. It is clear to me you have never really been to the U.S. or Japan. You dislike these people because they don’t agree with your world view. So you feel they must be horrible people filled with hate like you clearly are.

            I think your reply proves my point. You look at the United States preventing the Chinese from pushing their weight around in Asia as anti-Chinese. It is not anti-Chinese, it is anti-aggression the same as when the Americans put up economic sanctions against the Japanese during their aggressive period in the 1930’s. Would you say we did it only because we were anti-Japanese?

            If Americans are anti-Chinese why didAmerican pilots (the flying tigers) support the Chinese against Japan before Pearl Harbor? Why did we supply and support the Nationalist government at that time if we are anti-Chinese. Why does America support Taiwan? Are you saying Taiwan is not Chinese?

            American fought in Korea because the North invaded the South. IT was again anti-aggression not anti-Korean. How could we be anti-Korean because we fought along side Koreans to fight other Koreans? Once could say the same about the Vietnam war. Although you could honestly say the Korean War and Vietnamese War were anti-Communist.

            One only needs to look at China’s own papers to realize what the Party is doing. The media in America has many different points of view. There really is freedom of press and speech here. (As long as you not making snuff films or child porn.) The internet is not censored at all in America as it is China. We do not have a great fire wall to jump over. You can even watch CCTV in America it is not blocked and satellite TV is not illegal.
            I read the Global Times and the People’s Daily every day. But I can also read the South China Morning Post, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Washington Times, The China Post, Japan Times, Al-Jazeera, the Guardian, Reason magazine, Pravda, Indian Times, and London Times. Sure all papers have their points of view, but they are all different and I can read them all and I usually do on a daily bases. Can the average Chinese get that many different sources of information in Chinese?
            As for TV news, in America we have Al-Jazeera , BBC, CNN, Foxnews, and MSNBC to just name the major 24hour news channels, all with different points of view and as said before you can access CCTV here too in English or Chinese. In China you have on face on all Channels at 7pm telling you the Party line:China is great, the Party is great, and the rest the world is terrible (especially Japan, and America)
            What you call anti-Chinese is once again disagreement with the Parties talking points. If we are not pulling the party line we must be anti-Chinese?

            For your information the “Axis of Evil” was a speech by President Bush right after 9/11 it was: North Korea, Iran, and Iraq. China was not one of them. The Bush family had very close ties with the Chinese.

            The different between my anecdotal evidence and yours is:
            1) I have lived in both countries.
            2) I have Chinese, American, and Japanese friends.
            3) I live in a nation where he government does not decide what the people can see, hear, or read.
            4) I have access to all points of view from many different sources.

            So once again I will ask you, getting back to the point. Have you any proof in the American media, from American politicians, American academics, News paper editorials, interviews of Americans on the Street, or has any Americans actually told you they are happy that innocent Chinese were murdered by these terrorists?
            You never answered the question, your only response is that there are so many Americans there most be those who are happy this happened. Your logic is that since America has over 330 million people we must have alot of assholes? So then logically since China has unofficially up to 1.5 billion, the Chinese must have many more assholes, and the Japanese should have many fewer asshole than both countries. Yes?

            I on the other hand can supply you with Party controlled articles from the Chinese press and comments from Chinese university professors that express glee for 9/11, the Japanese Earthquake, and for the Boston marathon Bombings. I have had Chinese tell me they were happy when they heard about 9/11 and the earthquake in Japan. I am not talking about just loons making claims on the internet.

            You have not shown me anything like that to prove your point that there is even a small minority of Americans that are happy that these innocent people were murdered.
            .

          • Insomnicide

            I want to reason with you but your post just reeks of failure of reading comprehension and ad hominem. Could you please learn to read and stop using personal attacks to prove an anecdotal experience. And the fact that you cannot fathom there would be many Americans that are actually racist towards Chinese people, come on.

          • Wodowsan

            Where am I not comprehending what you are saying?
            You said Americans hate Chinese. Nothing you said to me proves Americans hate Chinese.
            You very first statement that there are Americans happy that Kunming happened, where is your proof of that?
            How is pointing out the illogic of your arguments ad hominems?
            I think you are the one that is not reading me correctly. I had said that am sure there are assholes in America, but I do not personally know any Americans that hate Chinese. The only Americans that might hate Chinese are those of ethnic Asian backgrounds that have long historical conflicts with the Chinese, and may hate Chinese like so many Chinese hate the Japanese. I personally do not know any Americans like that.
            I grew up in New York, a highly populated area in America, and I have never met any Americans who told me they hated Chinese.
            I have met Americans that hate the Communist Party. Any Communist Party, Chinese, Russian, or American. It does not matter what nationality the Communist are. And I do know many Chinese that hate the Chinese Communist Party. The closest I know of anyone who hates the Chinese, are not Americans, but Taiwanese, who see themselves as Taiwanese not Chinese and hate that China keeps claiming that Taiwan is part of China, but they are not Americans.
            I do know people from Hong Kong that hate the mainland Chinese, they hate the way Beijing bullies them and they hate the rudeness of the Chinese “locust” as they call them. But then again they are not Americans.
            I do know people from Vietnam that hate the Chinese, because for centuries the Vietnamese were forced to pay tribute to the Chinese courts, and more recently for China’s “punitive” attack on them in 1979. Then again they are not Americans.
            I do know Philippinos that hate the Chinese, especially those that have been abused and exploited by Chinese families as nannies or housekeepers, and more recently because of the Chinese government’s belligerent attacks in in the Chinese media on their nation, but then again they are not Americans either.
            I honestly do not know any Americans that hate the Chinese. If anything I know Americans that admire Chinese culture, love the food, and have married Chinese, American men and American women of European and African heritage. So I could say I know Americans that love Chinese. I wonder if you know any Chinese that love Americans. I know there are those that do, but I am guessing not in your circle of friends and family.
            I have to admit Nazis or Klansmen in American, I assume most hate Chinese. But then again they hate anyone that is not the same as them and they have no power or influence in America and are despised and hated by most Americans.
            I have personally never met someone in America that has identified themselves as a member of the Klan, or a white supremacy group. I know they do exist, but I have never met one.
            The truth is in the 21st century, America does not have the wholesale racism you want to think we have, so you can justify your own bigotry.
            So no, I do not fathom that there are many Americans that are racists towards Chinese. America is a nation that has had a Chinese as Secretary of Labor, a secretary of Energy, the Ambassador to China and who was also the governor of a State, and representatives in our Congress. If Americans hate Chinese so much, how do Chinese-Americans get elected into positions of power?
            I am sure though if they ran as Communist they would get very few votes from the Americans.
            You still have not presented any proof of your original statement.

          • Insomnicide

            One, my original statement is about foreigners in general or those in western countries.
            Two, i have repeated twice that we are discussing those Americans who are racially prejudiced people of Chinese ethnicity and yet you keep insisting it must be people who only hate the communist party.
            Three, you said if they hate Chinese people then they must love Mao. That my argument is illogical, but no, i am merely repeating their logic. It is they who are illogical. If you have ever talked to one of those idiotic hippies, regardless of nationality. You would know what i’m referring to. They hate Mao and the communist party for the human rights abuses and totalitarian policies yet at the same time view Chinese people as soulless drones of Mao/CCP. I am merely presenting it to you as they have expressed themselves. You think it’s illogical? Well at least we agree on something.

            Now, as for American opinions of Chinese people. Yes, there are many who do like Chinese people. But being a nation of 300,000 there are just as many who dislike them. You don’t need to be a KKK member or neo-Nazi to be racist towards people. And you certainly don’t need to be liked by everyone to be elected a member of the government. There’s a strong resent against blacks in half of the US, and yet Barack Obama has served for two terms as president.

            You keep attacking my arguments using childish antics such as calling me a party member of the CCP or making assumptions that any resentment towards China or Chinese people is only directed towards the CCP. That is not true, while the CCP is the main source of the hate there are many who hate China or Chinese people anyway. Like you said, Philippinos, Vietnamese, Hong Kongese. They hate regardless of CCP’s involvement. And if you search on the internet public opinion of China from Americans, you can see they do not see China positively either. If you can’t imagine the possibility of that, then i can’t help you. But the point still stands, there’s always going to be people who hate. It’s not that much of a shock, and it shouldn’t come off as a surprise there are arseholes like that to you because come on, you lived in New York.

            For my original statement, i’m using the presumption that some where out there, there probably are people living in western countries who couldn’t be happier Han Chinese people are dying. It’s not a jab at Americans in particular, it’s about western perspective on the east in general. There are some very cruel and sadistic people in the world, it’s not new and it’s not impossible. If you want to see for yourself, all you have to do is google anti-China sites and forums.

          • Wodowsan

            If you are talking about hippie backpackers. I would agree that many may not be aware that there are many Chinese that are not mindless drones. that many Chinese are able to see what the party is and the monster Mao was. There are though many that still worship Mao, and believe everything CCTV says. They are drones. But I agree that is not all Chinese, or even most Chinese. Then again why would these people who hate Chinese want to go to China? I still think you are misunderstanding the opposition to Mao, and to the drones that still support him and the Party as hating all Chinese. It really is not the same thing.

            You are still missing how your statements are offensive and a clue to your own bigotry and misconceptions of America and western nations. I still think you trying to justify yours and your government hostile racist attitudes by saying “well everyone is a racist, so it is ok I and my government is.”

            Your words:
            “You don’t need to be a KKK member or neo-Nazi to be racist towards people. And you certainly don’t need to be liked by everyone to be elected a member of the government. There’s a strong resent against blacks in half of the US, and yet Barack Obama has served for two terms as president.”

            This is what I pointed out to you earlier, that the argument that those who oppose Obama must be doing so because he is Black. I am sure some did, but the majority voted against Obama not because he is black, but because they disagree with his politics. How do I know this? Because many of the same people that voted against and hate Obama are supporting Dr. Ben Carson for President for 2016. Both of Dr. Ben Carson’s parents are black. If what you are saying is true they should oppose him even more so than they opposed Obama. If anything, I think many Americans voted for Obama because he is black and didn’t really listen to what he was saying or the fact he had very little experience as a leader. Much like I fear many will vote for Hillary Clinton just because she has two “X” chromosomes. Yet those that will vote against her will be accused of being ant-woman, the funny thing is that most of the people that will vote against Hillary Clinton are major supporters of Margret Thatcher, who was of course a woman. So again it is attack to marginalize those that politically disagree with you. Call them sexist, call them racists, because they do not agree with your politics.

            I think you should re-Google your anti-china and anti-Chinese sites. I think if you take a closer look at them they notice they are not sites put up by Americans or other westerners. They are sites put up by your fellow Asian neighbors who oppose Beijing’s Belligerent rants against what they consider their territorial waters in the South and East China Seas.

            As of other ant-China sites I have seen before they are mostly put up by Chinese in exile that oppose the CCP or Buddhist that oppose China’s invasion of Tibet in 1950 and the constant attacks by Beijing against the Dali Lama. The other big groups that have anti-China sites are Chinese Falun Gung members and the Taiwanese nationalists that oppose the Chinese government always saying they are part of China.

            I understand that many Chinese like to lump all non-Chinese as foreigners. But Asian Pacific nations are not westerners and not Americans. Even though I know their is real anti-Chinese attitudes in many of these nations most recently it has been flamed by the Beijing government flexing their muscles and wanting to bring back the glory of the Chinese Empire. The countries surrounding you are not keen on China becoming a superpower or even a regional power. As I am sure they would not want to see Japan become one too. There is too much bad history for them to trust Japan or China.

            Gen. Võ Nguyên Giáp who fought the French and the Americans in Vietnam once said. “”I for one would rather sniff French shit for five years than eat Chinese shit for the rest of my life.”

            So you are right there are those that hate the Chinese, but I am telling you that it is not a strong emotion in America. I am sure it is not in other western countries too. None of them had suffered as tributary states under the Chinese Dragon like the Asian nations had for over a thousand year. They just do not have the history with China to hate Chinese as you are implying. As for America, if it were not for China there wouldn’t be an America. Columbus wasn’t trying to find America, he was trying to find a trade route to China. No China, no America.
            There is also the fact of Chinese labors building the railroads in America. I am actually surprised you didn’t mention that, because at that time there was clear anti-Chinese sentiment in American. Where other could freely immigrant to America, only the Chinese were barred to do so up to 1920. Now a days it is difficult for everyone to immigrant to America, the Chinese are no longer singled out.

            Although Taiwanese no longer need to apply for visa’s to come to America to visit. I am sure you think Taiwanese are Chinese, so again I do not see the anti-Chinese racism you are so sure exists in America.

            I think if you were able to visit America and have an open mind you will be pleasantly surprised with America and Americans. Most of us are friendly and kind. If you do make it. I would be sure to make you my guest and offer you my hand in friendship.

    • Teacher in China

      That’s something I go through with someone seemingly every week here in small town Dongbei, especially with Japan. I had one kid make a sentence in class the other day “If I ruled the world, I would game over Japan” (I would destroy Japan). Sadly, that’s a typical attitude. Whenever I hear these things, I try to make it clear that they don’t know any real actual Japanese people, nor have they ever met any. I try to explain exactly what you just said – they just want to live, get a good job, support their family, be happy.

      • Wodowsan

        I have adult students like this. I would ask such students:

        “What would you think of an American who tells all Chinese are bad and no good, yet, they have never been to China,they have never talked to someone from China, and have never met a Chinese person? Would I be smart to listen to them?”

        They always replied that I should not listen to them, that are fools or stupid.

        I would then ask them “Have you, or those who tell you
        how bad the Japanese are ever been to Japan? Have you or
        they ever talked to a Japanese person? Have you or they ever even met a Japanese person?”

        They would then reply “No”

        “So then don’t you think that also foolish?”

        They would either not answer or reply “Yes, it is foolish.”

        I think you just need to use the Socratic method with them, Let them see for themselves the illogic in their hate.

        I would always follow up that I did know Japanese. I have Japanese friends. Even though I know there are bad Japanese people, they too have criminals, rapists, corrupt politicians, and murders, I personally have never met a bad Japanese person.
        Although I have never been to Japan. I do know a lot of people who have been and they universally tell me how much they liked and how friendly and nice the Japanese are. Even Chinese friends who been to Japan have told me the same thing.

        Although, I should note. After one time I gave this lesson I was reprimanded afterwards by my Communist Party handler that I should not teach this.

        I asked her “Why? Because the Party wants the people to hate the Japanese?”

        She would not give me a reply and got off my back.

        • Kai

          I like what you did, and agree on the Socratic method, on helping people arrive at the right conclusion on their own. I wish I was better at it.

          Those who are rendered speechless are hopefully demonstrating that they at least were capable of reasoning through it, and those who go further to openly admit their mistake are generally laudable for their humility. The frightening ones are those who refuse to reconsider their judgments believing they know enough, that they are entitled to them, and the people who would indulge them out of shared prejudice.

    • lala lala

      I remember back in 08 earthquake,alots of american think that china deserve it and also on the 2011 disaster on japan there were tweets and youtube comment like pearl harbor karma,whaling pay back
      I too also do see that people not only hate CCP,the whole ordinary chinese
      If you don’t agree on their racist views point on chinese people they start calling you brainwashing and 50 cent for simply not agreeing on their attack rant.

      • mr.wiener

        There are also plenty of reasonable folk on both sides. Western rednecks, Chinese Wu maos, same bullshit just wrapped in a different skin.

        • lala lala

          But the thing is this guy here act like westerns never put up their everyday racist rant on internet

          • mr.wiener

            And I’m sure there are dickheads who rant about the Koreans , the Japanese and the Xinjiangren on the Chinese web pages who talk big and every one else ignores them. I know I do

      • Wodowsan

        I was living in America at that time of the earthquake in China. I remember Americans sending teams and donations to help dig out victims. Again you are talking about loon making comments on the internet, that may not even be American. Many people around the world can use English (unlike Chinese, accept for few non-Chinese use the language.) If they are Americans, they are at best lone loons. Growing up in America I have never had an American tell me they hate the Chinese. I have though met many Chinese who have told me they hate Americans and even more who have told me they hate the Japanese. I also have never met a Japanese that has told me they hate Chinese. I am sure their some, but I have never met one. And I confident I know many more Japanese than you do and know many more Americans and Chinese who have lived, worked, or gone to school in Japan.

        There are a lot of union members in America that are upset about their jobs going to China. But their anger is more towards American corporations, and the American government for allowing that to happen. None have ever told me they hate the Chinese people for working for slave wages. If anything they blame the American companies for taking their jobs overseas and exploiting Chinese and Indian workers That is not mean they hate the Chinese people.

        There are Americans that refuse to buy Chinese products, but not because they hate Chinese, it is because they do not trust the quality or safety of Chinese products, they do not want to support a tyrannical government with their money, andor they want to support American companies and American jobs. Again it does not mean they hate Chinese people.

        The wholesale American racism towards Chinese you are suggesting is not evident in the United States. I strongly recommend you visit the U.S. and see for yourself, and beyond just Chinatown.

        I will ask you the same question: Do you have any proof an American university professor giving a speech, an American media editorial, an American government official, interviews of Americans on the streets, or even an American telling you directly these they were happy with that the Chinese had an earthquake that killed thousands or were are happy those people were murders in Kunming? I do not think so.

        An anonymous comment on internet is not a good measure of any society, unless these racist comments were getting up votes way to the top. As I stated before the problem with English, is that many people around the world speak English, you are writing to me in English now, I am assuming you are not American. Yet how many people around the world speak and write Chinese, that are not Chinese?

        I can show you articles from Chinese government controlled media, speeches from Chinese professors, and I have had Chinese tell me directly, they were happy with the attacks on 9/11, the earthquake in Japan, and the Boston marathon Bombing. Racism is a much bigger problem China than it is in the U.S., and the Party uses it to flame blind nationalism and support for the Party. They use hatred toward other people and other nations to devout the people’s attention from their own domestic problems and the corruption of the Party.

        In the U.S. since we are a nation of many different types of people, it does not mean their isn’t racist in America, but there has been major positive efforts for generations to face the evils of racism and fight it. In China the State promotes racism and hatred.

        On a personal note my son and daughters are all half Chinese. My grandchildren are half Black, a quarter Chinese, and also a quarter White (thanks to me.) None of them have had people in America show them any hatred for being not all white. They though have had Chinese insult them and be racist towards them for not being 100% Chinese. That is the reality. My son goes to a school in Queens that has many Chinese and he says he is picked on for being mixed, not by the black kids or the white kids, only by the Chinese kids.

        My oldest daughter when we lived in Taipei, came home crying many times from school, because the Chinese kids would attack her for being half white. I have to admit my half Chinese children I have told me, because of the way Chinese have treated them, they wish they were not Chinese at all. I breaks my heart when I hear them say that. I want them to be proud of both their heritages.

        Too many Chinese try to accuse others of being racists only to justify there own bigotry. The fact is it is not out there to the extent you are implying, or even wishing it was, so you can feel better about your own racism.

        Of all the Chinese I know who have lived in America, none have every told me that they were treated badly by Americans for being Chinese. They all told me they found Americans, on the most part, to be very kind, and friendly.

        Party members or the children of party members in America have told me how they get angry because many Americans disagree with the Party. They clearly have trouble handling opposing ideas. Which is understand since their families benefit from being Party members, and they are not from a society that allows “sensitive” issues to even be discussed. But opposing the Party is not hating the Chinese people.

        I wait for your proof of the deep seeded American racism towards the Chinese people.

        • lala lala

          WOW you being so defense when i point out american negative side with excuse logic and kept on showing me on american positive view. Anyway like you mention this is the anonymous cyber world,how can i even seriously believe on half of your comment.I just could go on internet, make bullshit claim like ”alots american said to my face that going slaughter chinese” would most people believe that? I did saw video on youtube were japanese girl on microphone shouting ”start killing korean like the nanjing massacre” but i’m not going start generalize japanese behaviour if i did you or whoever would probably use counter tactics excuse and start listing negative chinese side of view

          • Wodowsan

            So no proof of Americans happy about the Earthquake in Japan or in China, or the stabbings in Kunming.

            The thing is you know that that Chinese media, which is sponsored and controlled by the Party, does flame racial hatred. You try to justify this behavior (as if it was a justification) that in America we do the same thing. Something you have no evidence of accept random loon comments on comment pages, who may not even be Americans.

            So now that I have used “Excuse” logic you want to marginalize the truth. Sounds like you are doing what the Party and your likes are always claiming the Japanese are doing.

            I did not ask you to just trust my comments. I asked you to actually go out there and do some research. Find cultural evidence of Americans hating the Chinese and share that evidence with me.

            Are you are saying my comments about the Chinese media, Chinese professors, and government officials, are not true? Are you saying you do not personally know Chinese that hate Americans and the Japanese? We both know that you do, no?

            I am glad to hear you are not condemning all Japanese for the rants of one lone Japanese girl. I do think her saying these things are not justified and are wrong. I am not defending anyone’s racist comments who will condemn whole groups of people, and generations for the actions of a few, or for those now dead and gone. I do not think her actions are correct just because there are Chinese that hate her for being Japanese.
            I do not think we making things better by being part of the problem.

            The whole point of my first comment was that as terrible as Kunming was, and it was, I hope it is at least is a lesson to those Chinese (not all, but too many) that seem so happy when horrible things happen to other innocent people in other nations. Especially in America and today’s Japan. (I can more than understand the hatred of Imperial Japan of 70 years ago.)

            Yet, the two of you are the ones that responded that Americans have the same attitude and are happy that Kunming happened. I responded to the two of you that your comments were not true, there isn’t any sign of Americans being gleeful of this event happening. It is being reported here as a terrorist attack. Terror, not liberation or insurgent attack.
            It is clear that both of you are projecting your own racist attitudes onto others. Thinking that this then justifies your own hate. I guess it is much easier to hate someone that hates you too? I don’t hate you. and most Americans, and all the Americans I know, do not hate the Chinese people.

            There are though many Americans that do hate the CCP, but as I said before the Party is not China or the Chinese people. They are at best only 1%.

            If you Check your history you will find that it was the Americans that first came to China’s aid against the Japanese, with over 20 millions of dollars in aid (this is during the great depression which was a lot of money at the time) and the Flying Tigers. Check the People’s Daily they talk about the Flying Tigers the other day (of course they couldn’t help but twist the story to condemn today’s Japan, putting more fuel on the fire.)

          • lala lala

            sound like you are accusing me that i agree with the chinese government policy and also you making sound like all chinese are nazi that they don’t care about other country or make zero donation when natural disasters hit.

          • Wodowsan wasted some incredibly good comments on you, which is a shame. Re-read his second comment (“I was living in America…”) without being in defense-mode. He gave you an excellent opportunity to learn and mature your mindset, and it’s unfortunate you didn’t take it. It’s not too late.

          • lala lala

            Go read his other comment,he the one acting like american are all pure and would never make fun of other country when they hit by natural disasters and which he so denfense about it. My high school classmates living in america now, told me that lots of american neitizens think that china deserve 08 earthquake also said in his face too. Would you believe that?

          • I believe it’s possible, in the sense that many things are “possible”, but that doesn’t mean it’s significant and relevant. I cannot deny the veracity of your high school classmates’ stories (nor can you validate them), but I can note that such comments would be roundly condemned by the overwhelming majority of Americans as well as mainstream American society. Perhaps those were just bratty American teenage males trying to be edgy and tough, and perhaps Wodowsan’s Chinese acquaintances were also just being pricks looking for attention. I don’t know. But that doesn’t change the validity of Wodowsan’s first comment, which was above all emphasizing the importance of empathy, which is something only a fool could disagree with.

          • lala lala

            So if i disagree with his comment mean that i’m ”commie”

          • What on earth are you talking about? Who aside from you has even mentioned “commie” in this entire thread? Are you one of those trolls who start arguments with random people on the Internet in order to push some irrelevant pet cause agenda?

            Yes, a lot of older Americans do ignorantly refer to Chinese as “commies”, but that’s not the same as celebrating when they die. Just because someone thinks you’re a “commie” doesn’t mean he thinks you should die. -_-

            I could just as easily refer you to all the Chinese who refer to Americans as “imperialists”. There is no difference in that regard.

          • lala lala

            Cause i see lots of comments on internet not only anti ccp they extremely hate whole chinese too.Once you start argue about their offensive mockery comment,they call you name like commies/50 cent even if didn’t mention anything about supporting ccp view.
            I don’t know why you think ”commies” means someone should die. labeling someone commie/50cent/brainwash way simplify their point.

          • Yes, there are a lot of those buffoons on the Internet. Most of them have never stepped foot in China. They do not even remotely coincide with people like Wodowsan and other chinaSMACK users who have actually lived in China.

            In fact, many of those people earnestly believe they are fighting for Chinese’ rights, and they do not have anything against Chinese people; their scorn is reserved solely for the CCP and its supporters. Conversely, many expats in China have through personal experience come to despise or resent Chinese people (or at least Chinese society) and don’t even give a damn about the political aspect or the CCP.

            You’re conflating two entirely different groups. And neither of those two groups represent all Americans. And even for those who do hate the CCP, that doesn’t mean they think all Chinese people should die. -_-

          • lala lala

            I don’t give a damn what they say about ccp even though they claim that they not against ordinary chinese but obvious their comment are

          • lala lala

            Never mind you said his FIRST comment,which i believe same view as yours

          • Guest

            Never mind you said his FIRST comment

          • Wodowsan

            No, I am accusing some Chinese, not all, in hateful speech when innocents are killed in America and in Japan. If you re-read my posts I say “too many.” I never say “all” or even “most” Chinese support this racism. I know from personal experience that most Chinese do not support this blind hatred, but too many do. Those that do are usually supporters of or members of the CCP. They also usually have never had any real actual contact with Americans or Japanese. Of the Chinese who have lived, studied, or work in the United States or Japan, they have never said anything hateful to me about either nation, just the opposite.

            I am accusing the CCP of purposely using its control of the media and the education system to fan the flames of hatred in the Chinese people towards other peoples, especially the Japanese and Americans.

            I am happy to hear you are one of the many Chinese that do not support these CCP policies and attitudes.

            I am though accusing you, due to your comments to me, that you are trying to defend the racism that does exist in China as acceptable by saying that Americans hate the Chinese.

            My response to you both was to challenge your assumption that there is a racist hatred in America towards the Chinese. As an American, born and raised here, I have not seen it. I would go out and guess that most Americans admire the Chinese people, their culture, their food, their art, their scientific contributions to mankind, their work ethic, and respect for education. Their is much Americans can learn from the Chinese.

            Since this American hatred towards Chinese was not evident to me, I asked both of you to present proof of this ingrained societal and government sponsored hatred by Americans towards the Chinese people. Neither of you have presented me anything to prove your initial comments.

            So now your back peddling by accusing me of calling “all” Chinese Nazi’s. When you know that is not what I said. I have only accused the CCP and “too many” Chinese of bigotry.

            For your information the Nazi Party in Germany, and the Tojo regime in Imperial Japan both conducted massive censorship in their countries, their governments controlled all media, they outlawed other political parties, they imprisoned their own citizens that challenged government policies, they heightened nationalism, and inflamed an attitude that their people were superior to other peoples of other nations, they both claimed territories controlled by other nations as historical and culturally theirs, they advocated it was their time, and their right, to be world powers, but the western powers were purposely holding them back and had “humiliated” them in the past. – Sound like any government in today’s world to you?

          • Alex Dương

            > As an American, born and raised here, I have not seen it. Just the opposite towards the Chinese people.

            There are racists in every country. I hope you aren’t so naive as to think that there are no Americans with anti-Chinese or anti-Asian sentiments or that just because you haven’t seen it, it is so rare as to be effectively nonexistent.

            I also think you have this tendency to push some of your pet points a bit too much. I can understand doing this if someone actually says something so that you bring up these points meaningfully in a reply. But in my case, I remember you went on this mini-lecture in one of your replies to me about how the CCP miseducates Chinese people on the role of the KMT during WWII…even though I never said anything that remotely resembled the CCP’s position.

          • Wodowsan

            If you read all my posts I did say I know there are KKK members and Nazi’s in America. I know they exist, but I have personally never met one, they are not among my circle of friends and family. There is now institutional effort to flame hatred in other people as there in in China. If anything their is effort to other extreme where we have cases of reversed discrimination in America.

            Klansmen and Nazis are extremely small minority in 21st century America. There are many more mixed racial families in America than members of these groups. Most American look at these individuals as loons.

            My argument is there is not proof of this ingrained societal and government sponsored hatred by Americans towards the Chinese people. I asked both your comrades to present evidence of this. Neither has.

            You are right, as a educator, where ideas, access to all information, and a need to speak freely are extremely important to me, I do find the CCP’s censorship, propaganda, and strangle hold on education are a pet peeve of mine.
            I have taught university in America, Taiwan, and in China. Only in China was I told that there facts I could not teach.

          • Alex Dương

            I didn’t make myself clear last time, and it seems I’m not making myself clear this time either, so I have no choice but to be much more blunt: you have a tendency to give lectures when they aren’t needed.

            I repeat – you have a tendency to give lectures when they aren’t needed. Another way of saying this is that you “correct” people who didn’t say anything wrong. Going back to my case, I never said the CCP singlehandedly defeated Japan and that the KMT did nothing in between 1937 and 1945. Yet, for whatever reason, you felt the need to “correct” me and lecture about how the KMT fought almost all of the conventional battles, which is something I did not dispute.

            Am I getting through to you? I have no problems if someone says something wrong and then you reply and set the record straight. But something wrong has to be said first; otherwise, your lecture is really misplaced.

          • Wodowsan

            I am very sorry that my style is not brief enough for you.
            I address points made. I attempt to back up my arguments with facts, not just expressing my feelings or emotions. (sorry should I only have said feelings?)
            I am also making my own general comments about my observations and experiences living in the belly of the Dragon , Taiwan, and the U.S. I did not realize I was in court of law and can only reply directly to the questions presented to me by the prosecutor, without any elaborations on my part.
            An occupational hazard of being a teacher is that I do have a tendency of repeating myself in order to be sure everyone is understanding. I again apologize and beg your forgiveness. (no sarcasm intended)
            I do realize you are not the only one reading these post. I do want to make sure I am clear to them also. But I will try to more pithy in the future.

          • Alex Dương

            Wow, I am really not getting through to you. Let me try one more time with a different approach. Do you see anything wrong with the following hypothetical conversation?

            Person 1: The armies of the Republic of China fought almost singlehandedly against the armies of the Empire of Japan for four years.

            Person 2: No, you’re wrong. See, a lot of people in mainland China have this misconception that the Chinese Communist Party did the heavy lifting in World War II. In reality, it was the Nationalists who bore the brunt of the fighting.

            I see something wrong: person 2 is “correcting” person 1, except person 1 didn’t say anything that contradicted the reply from person 2. This is something you do a lot. It doesn’t appear that you are aware that you do this.

            This has nothing to do with not being in a court of law (please, give me a break). But it is related to your job of being a teacher; I have to wonder how good of a teacher you are if this is the way you “teach.”

          • Wodowsan

            What we were discussing at that time was your statement that WWII was not one sided against the Japanese for the Chinese. What I and others were saying was that China would not have fared well against Japan without International support, they were receiving in money, training, supplies, and volunteers. You admitted that fact in your statement.

            I mentioned that your statement was much like how the Party tries to re-write history that they fought the Japanese alone, they don’t even mention the fact that the KMT actually did most of the fighting. I did not say you said that. I said it was similar to your statement.

            The Chinese (KMT or PLA) were not taking on the Japanese alone. So the question you generated in your statement was would the Chinese have faired well if they did? My guess is no.

            Just like I do not think the Americans could have fared well against the Japanese if the Japanese didn’t have so many troops tied down on the Mainland. The Americans may have won the war without China’s support, but it would have been a lot longer and a lot bloodier. Then again if the Japanese could have manned the islands with more men, perhaps we would all be speaking Japanese now.

            Do you get it yet?

          • Alex Dương

            No, no, no, what I agreed with was that without the U.S., Japan would have never left the ROC. What I disagreed with was your contention that the U.S. was responsible for the ROC’s surviving from 1937 to 1941. The ROC did that almost singlehandedly.

            I have to be really blunt now: your comment that my statement is “very much like” what the CCP does is just plain stupid. It is irresponsible and not befitting anyone who claims to be a “teacher” to make comments like that. You are silencing discussion and then proceeding to give lectures that are completely out of place.

            Note that by your own account of the facts, it was not until April 1941 that Lend Lease was extended to the ROC. You really want to say that a policy that began in April 1941 was responsible for the ROC’s survival from August 1937 until April 1941? Give me a break.

            All I said was that the Second Sino-Japanese War wasn’t one-sided because it lasted eight years. And as a consequence, the ROC’s armies ought to be commended for their efforts. Then you come in and say this kind of crap: “oh, see here guys, this is exactly what the CCP does. It tells the Chinese that the CCP’s armies did most of the work when in reality, it was the KMT’s armies who did the fighting.”

            Uh, yeah, I never said anything otherwise. If you understand that, then why can’t you understand that that kind of reply is incredibly ANNOYING to receive and STUPID to write?

          • Wodowsan

            You just said: “You really want to say that a policy that began in April 1941 was responsible for the ROC’s survival from August 1937 until April 1941? Give me a break.”

            The fact is there was aid, sanctions against Japan, and American volunteers helping the KMT much earlier than the 1941 lend lease program. Aid that was extremely important to help the Chinese survive against the Imperial Japanese at very crucial time.

            You disagree with me, fine, but you cannot omit the fact China was receiving aid before 1941. Are you? Sounds like you are. So how is that different than the Party trying to portray events that they alone defeated the Japanese all on their own, or the North Koreans saying they held off the Americans without their mentioning the Chinese?

            How am I silencing you? By my disagreeing with your assumptions? You are the one that is telling me that I cannot respond the way I do to your comments? You are the one calling me “ANNOYING” and “STUPID.” I have not hurled any personal attacks on you. I have only disagreed with you and tried to illustrate my point with facts and examples.
            I think the aid to China prior to 1941 was not enough, resulting in the Chinese losing large swats of territory to the Japanese and resulting to the Rape of Nanjing. I would hardly call the Chinese war effort prior to 1941 as holding their own.

            “In 1935 and 1936, the United States Congress had passed Neutrality Acts to prohibit the U.S. from selling goods to countries at war…Still, the acts were not active unless Roosevelt invoked them, which he did not do in the case of Japan and China. He favored China in the crisis, and by not invoking the 1936 act he could still shuttle aid to the Chinese.” This he did prior to the lend lease program.
            I understand you have this ethnic pride thing of yours to think the Chinese held up against the Japanese prior to 1941, but it is not true, the Chinese were getting their asses kicked. Just as I stated to you before the British were kicking the asses of the Americans prior to the French entering the American Revolution. Washington’s greatness was not having his army destroyed until the French did put their full weight behind the American cause. Even though the Americans did have some important victories against the British on their own: Siege of Boston, Battle of Saratoga, Lexington and Concord, and Battle of Princeton. Yet if out the French we would have lost the war, we still lost New York and Philadelphia to the British and Gen. Cornwallis was kicking our asses in the southern states.
            Can you name one military victory Chiang had against the Japanese prior to 1941? I am sorry to say I cannot think of one. His only victory was keeping what little bit of an army he had intact until the Americans, and others did enter the war against the Japanese.
            So, I am sorry I still disagree with your statement that China was holding it’s own against the Japanese.

          • Alex Dương

            I don’t think those are facts at all. It wasn’t until July 1941 that the U.S. ceased all oil exports to Japan; even if you want to talk about the Export Control Act, that was July 1940. That hardly seems “much earlier” than April 1941. And the Flying Tigers didn’t begin combat in China until December 1941. Again, none of this is meant to minimize the major contributions of the U.S. to the ROC in WWII; but objectively, the dates hardly support your argument that the U.S. was responsible for ROC survival between August 1937 and July 1941. THAT is what I disagree with.

            You silence discussion because you discuss the way Glenn Beck does (or used to, anyway): “oh, I’m not calling you a Communist, but you act just like they do.” I disagree with you; that makes me “very much like” the CCP? Ridiculous. I wasn’t able to make this clear to you politely, so I had no choice but to be more blunt. It doesn’t appear that you at all realize how incredibly annoying it is to have a discussion with someone who does that.

            Going back to the comment that got me a ton of flak from some Europeans, France fell in six weeks to Germany. China didn’t fall in July 1940 at the time of the Export Control Act, in April 1941 at the time when Lend Lease was extended to the ROC, or in July 1941 when all oil exports were restricted. And China had been at war since August 1937 (July if you include the Marco Polo Bridge Incident). So even if I want to be generous and say that the Export Control Act counted as “substantial” aid to the ROC, the ROC held their own from August 1937 to July 1940. That’s almost three full years.

            It’s funny that you talk about “ethnic pride” because that is exactly why I caught so much flak when I compared and contrasted France and China in WWII. The funny thing is that it wasn’t even French people who were accusing me of unfairly treating France: it was a German, an Italian, and a white Canadian. Apparently, it’s OK for Europeans and their North American descendants to trash China, but it isn’t OK for Asians or their North American descendants to bring up a not-so-glamorous part of French history; I didn’t trash France at all.

            Oh, and you want one military victory prior to December 1941? I’ll give you three:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taierzhuang
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changsha_%281939%29
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changsha_%281941%29

            I never disputed that without the U.S., Japan would have never left the ROC. What I am disputing is your contention that the U.S. was responsible for the ROC’s survival between August 1937 and December 1941. The ROC survived for almost 4.5 years before the U.S. entered the war.

            What you don’t understand is that it was because of China that Japan attacked the U.S. Oh, you say, it was the sanctions and embargoes. OK, suppose the war in China had gone as planned in Tokyo: it started in August 1937 and was supposed to have ended in November 1937. If Japan had full control of China by November 1937, why would it have cared if the U.S. stopped exporting? China would have supplied all of their resource needs and more.

            The sanctions and embargoes were only relevant because the war in China DID NOT go as planned.

          • Kai

            Jesus Christ, IIRC, Alex Dương ‘s contention was that he thinks “one-sided” didn’t connote enough credit to how much the Chinese resisted the Japanese while others felt “one-sided” accurately connotes that the Chinese were largely outmatched by the Japanese. Both connotations are reasonable and not mutually exclusive. Alex, AFAIK, has never disagreed that the Chinese were outmatched. All he did was beg for recognition that the Chinese fought like hell. Do you want to disagree with that?

            If not, let’s move onto likening his comments to what the CCP does. Honestly, I’m at a loss for how you find the two connected or similar. It must be really subtle or so generalized as to be functionally irrelevant. But let me try:

            Nevermind the original point in contention reiterated above, you at some point felt Alex was not giving enough credit to international aid for China’s resistance effort. Alex, consistent to recognizing and wanting recognition for how impressive it was for China to have resisted as much as they did, seems to belittle or dismiss international aid during a period that he considers China to have been largely fending for itself. Or as he articulates here:

            Person 1: The armies of the Republic of China fought almost singlehandedly against the armies of the Empire of Japan for four years.

            I can understand arguing over the “almost” above with Alex, about giving due recognition for pre-Lend Lease international assistance. I can’t really understand likening that with the CCP suggesting that it was they and not the KMT who fought most of the war against Japan.

            True, in a way, both Alex and the CCP have diminished certain historical facts, but aren’t the motivations entirely different? Alex is trying to argue how the Chinese put up a respectable fight despite really unfavorable odds. He even says here “almost” single-handedly, thereby not entirely dismissing that there was international help. The CCP is just being outright dishonest. Alex is perhaps downplaying a minor fact, whereas the CCP could be accused of completely falsifying history. I think there’s a massive difference in the “degree” and “motivation” for the diminishment here. Therefore, I agree with Alex that your accusation here seems really awkward and forced.

            Back to the central point. I think you replaced Alex’s contention over “one-sided” with him saying the Chinese “held their own”. You’ve changed his argument for him. You’ve straw-manned him. You’ve projected a less defensible position onto him and are now arguing against that false position.

          • Wodowsan

            Dear Kai and Alex:
            Is there really a difference between “not one–sided” and “Holding their own.”?

            Holding your own means, it is not one-sided. If it is one sided the other side is not holding their own and is on the ropes. I can’t say “on the ropes” because Alex didn’t say “not on the ropes”? – It is called paraphrasing.

            Alex has informed me of three examples of the KMT having military victories against the Japanese prior to 1941, I thank him for that information, as I said before I admitted my ignorance of not knowing any.

            Yet, I still contest that just as the Americans had a few military victories against the British, before the French entered the war the conflict was “one sided” in favor of the British. As the British army wintered in New York City, Washington’s army was freezing to death at Valley Forge. That was after their victories at Saratoga and the Siege of Boston. In reality the Americans were on the run for most of the war, until the French entered in their favor. Much like the KMT was on the run all the way back to Chongqing losing large sections of China to the Japanese. Areas larger than several European nations combined.

            Granted Alex is not to the extreme as the Party in re-writing WWII, but he is challenging the fact that KMT was receiving aid from at least the Americans prior to 1941. It was not nearly enough as I stated before, and I think it not unreasonable to say with that little aid it did help keep the KMT in the fight.

            Since this is all a “What If.” we could surely never know. Unless one of us has a time machine and we can some how prevent the Americans from aiding the Chinese at all. Although Alex is challenging that Chinese received any aid prior to, now he is saying 1940. Let say Alex is right and the Chinese received no aid prior of 1940. I still contest the conflict was one-sided in favor the Japanese.

            Just as think the first year of the war for the Americans was also one-sided in favor of the Japanese. It was not until the battle of Midway that the tide of the war changed, and the American lucked out greatly in the battle. It could have easily gone in favor of the Japanese if they had found the smaller American carrier force first.

            I think it is important to note the Chinese, Americans, British, Australians, Indians, and others were all instrumental in defeating the Imperial Japanese. Not one of the Ally nations did it alone, I am also not confident one of them could have done it alone. The Japanese had the initiative in their favor.

            At least we all seem to at least agree on that. Alex only disagrees that the fight between Japan and China was not one-sided before America entered the war, and the Party (not Alex) hold the position that the Party alone defeated the Japanese. Forget about American’s and other nation’s help, they don’t even give the KMT credit for their contribution.

            So you are both right that Party’s re-writing of history is more extreme than Alex’s positions, I stand corrected.

          • Alex Dương

            I have no problems if you disagree with me on the importance of U.S. aid to the ROC between August 1937 and June 1940. That is totally fine. My sole gripe was that you described these disagreements as indicating that I behave, quote, “very much like” how the CCP pushes its version of history to mainland Chinese.

            I find that style of discussion to be extremely annoying. It’s exactly what Glenn Beck used to do when he was still on air: “oh, I’m not saying Obama’s a fascist, but he behaves just like one.” It’s irresponsible and doesn’t contribute to furthering the discussion.

            If you hadn’t made those types of remarks, I would’ve had no issues with you; I would’ve been glad to discuss the facts and our interpretation of the facts.

          • Wodowsan

            What I was trying to say to you before that those comments were not solely directed towards you. It was my observation of how the Party re-writes their role in the war.

            Perhaps I did give too much of a knee jerk reaction to your initial comment as too much like the way the Party purposely tries to take full credit for defeating the Japanese. I was not meaning to offend you. If I did I do apologize. It was not my attention. It is nice to know that us hashing things out we could reach common ground.

          • Kai

            Yes, of course there is a difference. One is a negative statement and the other is an affirmative statement. The former denies a characterization and the and the latter asserts a characterization. It’s a qualitative difference.

            What I’ve tried to make clear is that the bulk of the disagreement in the previous post and now conitnuing into this one surrounding Alex’s contention with “one-sided” was in how everyone was interpreting that characterization in different but not actually mutually exclusive ways. People just needed to figure out what people were referring to when using that characterization.

            Yet, I still contest that just as the Americans had a few military victories against the British, before the French entered the war the conflict was “one sided” in favor of the British.

            Let say Alex is right and the Chinese received no aid prior of 1940. I still contest the conflict was one-sided in favor the Japanese. I still contest the conflict was one-sided in favor the Japanese.

            With your connotation of “one-sided”, that’s fine, but again, you and Alex need to understand each others’ connotations. I personally think this would’ve all been cleared up if instead of “one-sided”, Alex simply said the Chinese should be given credit for fighting like hell despite their overwhelmingly unfavorable situation and you said the Japanese had overwhelming superiority in so many military aspects over the Chinese. I’m pretty certain Alex would agree with both of these statements and I’d hope you would as well…because I’m pretty sure this is what you guys are ultimately saying.

            Put another way–as a reiteration since I’ve said this before–Alex thinks the fact that the Chinese did not give up and continued fighting for years despite massive consistent losses is a testament to their efforts and will that should be given credit. He thinks “one-sided” doesn’t give this due credit, and instead suggests quick and complete Japanese victory over the entire Chinese side in the war. So, if the KMT didn’t give up and held on for years, doing the bulk of the fighting while begging for international aid, then “one-sided” doesn’t seem appropriate to him.

            Now, you may not think “one-sided” necessarily means quick and complete Japanese victory over the entire Chinese side in the war. For you, perhaps quick victories in individual battles is enough to allow one to use “one-sided” to describe the overall war, Perhaps overall military superiority in technology, training, equipment, etc. on paper is enough to say “one-sided”. This wouldn’t necessarily be an inappropriate use of the characterization either.

            However, both of you are using the characterization differently to refer to different things that, again, are actually not mutually exclusive. You guys just need to stop “contesting” and understand then express acknowledgement of each other’s totally appropriate meanings.

            Do you follow? When you say “I still contest”, you’re giving the impression that you either haven’t understood what Alex means or you don’t care and only care to argue against a straw man of him you’ve conjured up in your head. You’re nearly saying “I don’t care what you mean, this is what I think you mean, and I still contest that you are wrong to think what I think you mean”.

            Can you understand Alex’s frustration?

            The whole aid facet of the discussion came after and was secondary to the original disagreement over the characterization of “one-sided”. Alex has said he’s fine with disagreeing about the significance of pre-Lend Lease aid. The one thing he’s been frustrated with to this day, days after the original argument, is that you don’t seem to get his position and seemingly want to deny him his position with arguments that don’t seem to challenge the position he has in his own mind.

            One more time: Each of you are using “one-sided” in different ways. Does the defintion of the word “one-sided” accomodate his usage? Does it accomodate yours? If so, stop denying or “contesting” each others’ use of the word. I personally think once you guys stop, you’ll realize you guys don’t actually disagree on what you meant to say with that word.

            The only wrinkle to this is if either of you are actually motivated to diminish any facts in order to diminish a side or glorify another. Because you’ve accused Alex of being like the CCP, I suspect you felt Alex was trying to diminish and overstate the Chinese part in the war. I personally never got that feeling. He seemed to be begging for recognition instead of boasting. As a consequence, Alex may feel you are overstating American/international aid in order to diminish the Chinese part in the war, when he already felt people were not giving the Chinese enough credit.

            You know why comments like “you’d all be speaking Japanese if it weren’t for us” are irksome? Because it’s boastful, arrogant, self-aggrandizing. More often than not, the people who throw out these sort of comments are intent on putting down the Chinese, essentially “you owe your existence to us”. It should not be remotely unfathomable that Chinese people who fought for years suffering loss after loss but never giving up would take offense to this. Americans are forced to recognize French Aid in the Revolutionary War, but Americans would be irked as well if French people rubbed it in their noses.

            I personally think Alex has been clear. I don’t think he’s motivated to diminish or deny international help in the Pacific Theater. I think he does feel others are trying to diminish what the Chinese had to go through and/or aren’t giving enough credit, especially when comments like the above aren’t unseen on cS. Unfortunately, you feared he was, perhaps like the CCP, refusing to give enough credit to international help. I don’t think his actual comments supported that fear. I worry you had that fear because you might’ve been overeager to pigeon-hole him as some sort of Chinese nationalist. Perhaps he pigeon-holed those in disagreement with him as haughty foreigners. You guys can own up to this on your own, but I hope by spelling it out, maybe it’ll help you guys understand what may have caused the disconnect when your statements and the meanings behind them by themselves were perfectly valid.

          • Wodowsan

            I made the point several times that I do not think the Americans could have defeated the Japanese without the Chinese. If I said we would all be speaking Japanese, I mean all of us, Americans and Chinese. It was a joint effort of many nations to defeat the Imperial Japanese.

            Again as I stated to Alex, my comments about how the Party re-writes the history was not directly solely to him. I did feel his “not one sided” comment sounded similar but I understand and conceded it is not the same degree.

            I have to disagree with you that “Holding your own” is a negative statement and that “Not one-sided” is a positive meaning. The two statements have the same meaning I think if you check with most native speakers they would agree.

            Think of a two boxers. One is larger, but the other is faster and hits with more powerfully. The Larger boxer is able to go a couple of rounds, but it is only a matter of time the larger boxer will go down. I think many would agree that the fight is one-sided.

            Yet, if the Larger boxer can tag team, have another boxer hold his opponent, or distract him with hits too, The larger boxer who is not as skilled boxer has a chance. That does not mean the person they tag teamed with could beat this better boxer alone. It is a team effort. It may not be fair, two against one, but war is not fair.

            The Party basically says it defeated the better boxer alone, they do not give credit to their tag team partners. In reality they are not even the boxer in the ring that did take the blunt of hits, they were at best some kid on the side lines that would shoot annoying spit balls at the better boxer once and awhile.

            It seems to me (tell me if I am wrong) that Alex is saying “yes” the tag team helped to defeat the better boxer, but the larger boxer was doing just fine without any assistance the first two rounds. In spite the fact he has a large black eye, missing teeth, and is bleeding while his opponent hardly has any bruises. He also ignores the fact in those first two rounds he was getting assistance by the people in his corner with smelling salts, water, and first aid to continue the fight. He is saying that his boxer did not get any aid until the third or fourth round.

            “Not one sided” means like the trench warfare in World War I and the Iraq-Iranian war, where neither side is making head way. The Japanese were clearly making headway in the beginning of the war and the their advancement did not halted until China was getting substantial assistance, even in the first year the Americans had entered the conflict, the Japanese were still making major advances and the conflict was still “one-sided” in favor of the Japanese. The allies were hardly holding their own, they were on the run.

            The advantage the Chinese had, was much the same as the Soviets, they could trade space for time. Which was Chiang’s strategy. He understood that the war was one sided in favor of the Japanese. He’s strategy was the same as Washington’s against the British, Retreat. Better to run away, to fight another day.

            If you are saying that Alex’s meaning of “Not one sided,” meant the Chinese were not throwing in the towel, like the French did against the Germans. I agree. I just think his wording of “not one sided” is not the correct term. I think what he trying to say would be better expressed as: “not defeat”, “defiant”, “stayed in the fight” ,”had audacity”, “were determined.” If this is his meaning would agree with Alex whole heartily. The Chinese, especially the KMT did not give up, as the French did, creating Vichy France with an alliance to the Nazis.

            I hope this illustrates my point that I have been trying to make.

          • Kai

            I have to disagree with you that “Holding your own” is a negative statement and that “Not one-sided” is a positive meaning. The two statements have the same meaning I think if you check with most native speakers they would agree.

            I AM a native speaker. If they had the same meaning, they would be the same expression, yet they aren’t. Different expressions invariably denote and almost always connote different nuances. Even the same expression can connote different things depending on context (see below for elaboration).

            Think of a two boxers. One is larger, but the other is faster and hits with more powerfully. The Larger boxer is able to go a couple of rounds, but it is only a matter of time the larger boxer will go down. I think many would agree that the fight is one-sided.

            Your usage of “one-sided” here isn’t wrong. Neither was his objection to the characterization based on his interpretation.

            That does not mean the person they tag teamed with could beat this better boxer alone. It is a team effort. It may not be fair, two against one, but war is not fair.

            No one is arguing that the person they tag teamed with could beat the better boxer alone. No one is denying that Japan was defeated by a confluence of different nations’ efforts. Why do you keep reiterating something that isn’t relevant to what others are saying?

            The Party basically says it defeated the better boxer alone, they do not give credit to their tag team partners.

            Why are you repeating this yet again when neither Alex nor I have any disagreement with this and have even expressly agreed with you on this characterization of the Party?

            People usually only reiterate things when they feel the other party hasn’t acknowledged it. If we have, multiple times now, why are you reiterating?

            It seems to me (tell me if I am wrong) that Alex is saying “yes” the tag team helped to defeat the better boxer, but the larger boxer was doing just fine without any assistance the first two rounds.

            I was afraid of this. Guess I should trust my instincts more. Okay, that’s how you read Alex. Now, could you go back, review his comments, and quote actual statements he made that would compel people to interpret him this way? Please cite the actual comments by providing their direct links. You can get them from the timestamp next to their name (right-click, copy link location, then paste).

            Personally, I don’t think he said anything that would warrant you reading him so negatively and so specifically, but you are welcome to cite his specific words and explain how your interpretation is not only reasonable but objectively the most accurate. You’re saying HE gave you an impression of something. I’m thinking you projected an impression onto him, with his actual words not being dispositive of what you projected onto him.

            In spite the fact he has a large black eye, missing teeth, and is bleeding while his opponent hardly has any bruises.

            Alex in that situation thought of “one-sided” as meaning a KO in the first round. Even if his boxer is battered to all hell but is stil conscious and willing to keep going in the third round against an opponent with hardly any bruises, he feels the “one-sided” (meaning “first round KO”) is an unfair characterization. For his purpose, that’s understandable.

            You think his boxer being battered to all hell and the other boxer having hardly any bruises fits within describing the bout as “one-sided”. Both Alex and I seem to totally understand your usage of the characterization. Why can’t you understand his interpretation and usage of the characterization?

            He also ignores the fact in those first two rounds he was getting assistance by the people in his corner with smelling salts, water, and first aid to continue the fight. He is saying that his boxer did not get any aid until the third or fourth round.

            Alex is happy to discuss this facet with you, but you’re conflating it with the original issue of the “one-sided” characterization and that’s unproductively muddying up the discussion. Can you please cooperate on arriving at a consensus on the original issue first?

            “Not one sided” means like the trench warfare in World War I and the Iraq-Iranian war, where neither side is making head way.

            “Not one-sided” can mean that TOO. Native speakers inherently understand that expressions take on different nuances and connotations depending on subject and context. You seem oddly insistent that “one-sided” cannot make sense in different ways in different contexts. I’m not sure what to say in response to this.

            The Japanese were clearly making headway in the beginning of the war and the their advancement did not halted until China was getting substantial assistance, even in the first year the Americans had entered the conflict, the Japanese were still making major advances and the conflict was still “one-sided” in favor of the Japanese.

            Why are you still arguing this? Have I not already said your usage of “one-sided” to characterize the Japanese victories and advance is totally valid multiple times now? My whole point is that you being valid doesn’t automatically make Alex’s interpertation invalid.

            The advantage the Chinese had, was much the same as the Soviets, they could trade space for time. Which was Chiang’s strategy. He understood that the war was one sided in favor of the Japanese. He’s strategy was the same as Washington’s against the British, Retreat. Better to run away, to fight another day.

            The reason why Alex finds your responses “annoying” is because of parts like this. Alex will read that and think you are “lecturing” him. Why? Because you’re not saying anything he doesn’t already know and feels you should already know he knows. More importantly, he feels he hasn’t said anything that would make it relevant for you to point this out to him.

            Same here. I’m not sure why you’re explaining Chiang’s strategy to me. 1) I already know it. 2) It’s okay if you didn’t initially think I know it, but how is this relevant to any point I’ve made? 3) If it isn’t, then why are you talking about this to me?

            If you are saying that Alex’s meaning of “Not one sided,” meant the Chinese were not throwing in the towel, like the French did against the Germans. I agree.

            Yes.

            I just think his wording of “not one sided” is not the correct term. I think what he trying to say would be better expressed as: “not defeat”, “defiant”, “stayed in the fight” ,”had audacity”, “were determined.”

            Alex was reacting to another person’s characterization of “one-sided”. It wasn’t a characterization he introduced. He interpreted it one way and argued for why he felt the the characterization as he interpreted it was unfair. Remember what I said above:

            I personally think this would’ve all been cleared up if instead of “one-sided”, Alex simply said the Chinese should be given credit for fighting like hell despite their overwhelmingly unfavorable situation and you said the Japanese had overwhelming superiority in so many military aspects over the Chinese.

            The instigator and bulk of this argument is about the characterization “one-sided”. What baffles me about how this argument continues is that up to now you don’t seem to understand how Alex was interpreting “one-sided” and/or refusing to recognize his interpretation as not only valid within the definition of the expression but more importantly valid within his context.

            What is necessary here is you saying “Okay, Alex, I get why you objected to the characterization of ‘one-sided’. You think it doesn’t reflect the fact that the Chinese fought like hell for a long time. I get it, and insofar as that characterization may not reflect that to other people, I agree with objecting to it.”

            Alex needs to say (though I think he already has): “Okay, Wodowsan, I get that ‘one-sided’ reflects the Japanese making consistent headway and constantly prevailing over the Chinese in so much of the war. I get it, and insofar as that characterization reflects that, I agree with its use.”

            HAPPILY EVER AFTER. You two would spawn beautiful bouncing little babies.

            The Chinese, especially the KMT did not give up, as the French did, creating Vichy France with an alliance to the Nazis.

            Heh, Alex tried to explain his interpretation of “one-sided” using precisely this same point in that previous post. It’s ironic that you’re now using it, bringing you full circle back to something he tried almost at the get-go.

          • Wodowsan

            That is why I used the point about the French. I agree with him on that. I think we are in agreement, accept for his usage of the term one-sided.

            I was telling you Chiang’s strategy not because I do not think you know it, or that I think you are disagreeing with me on the history. I am saying it to illustrate the meaning of one sided. The reason he was using that strategy was because the war was one sided in favor of the Imperial Japanese. If he knew if he went toe to toe with the Japanese he would have been defeated. So as I know you know he traded space for time, because the conflict was “one sided” in favor of the Japanese. Does that make sense?

            It seem we are not in disagreement about the history. We are in disagreement in the meaning of one-sided.
            You are saying that one sided means a knock out in first round. I agree that is a sign of one sided, but it is not the only sign. One boxer refusing to go toe to toe is another, because he knows if he gets too close he will be knocked out.

            It was not that much different than the Long March, which was really the Long Retreat. The Communist fled from the KMT to save the PLA. At that time it was one-sided in favor of the KMT. I am not saying this because I think you don’t know it. I am saying it to illustrate the usage of one sided. Mao knew he could not go toe to toe with the KMT at the time. He knew if they did they would have lost, so you they made the Long March. The same as Washington wintering at Valley Forge.

            If he did the PLA would have been destroyed and Taiwan would still be part of China, but China would be the ROC not the PRC. (I know you know this. I am saying it because I hope it illustrates my point that one sided does not mean only a KO in the first round.)

            I really hope this helps in explaining why I really disagree strongly his use of “Not one-sided.”

          • Kai

            I am saying it to illustrate the meaning of one sided.

            Okay, I understand you’re trying to illustrate what you think the meaning of “one-sided” is…or perhaps what you think it can only be. The reason why I didn’t immediately understand you as doing that is because I feel I not only already understand but have also already demonstrated my understanding of your meaning of “one-sided”.

            I’ve said many times now that your interpretation of “one-sided” is valid. One would think you’d stop trying to explain it to me when I’ve already agreed with you.

            What I’m trying to get you to recognize is that I think Alex Dương ‘s objection to that characterization is not invalid in his context.

            Because I don’t want to continue reiterating my understanding of Alex’s position, I’ll just point you back to his latest comments reiterating his position(s):

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/kunming-train-station-terrorist-attack-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1278573400

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/kunming-train-station-terrorist-attack-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1278799185

            To me, I think it is abundantly clear that he objected to the characterization of “one-sided” because he interprets “one-sided” as the Japanese forcing the Chinese into surrender on their expected timetable:

            …the Second Sino-Japanese War wasn’t one-sided because it lasted eight years. And as a consequence, the ROC’s armies ought to be commended for their efforts.

            If you ask him if your usage of “one-sided” as referring to how much more militarily dominant the Japanese were, or how consistently they defeated and conquered territory, or how the Japanese inflicted far greater losses than vice versa was valid, I believe Alex would agree. I think a lot of what he wanted was for you to understand and demonstrate understanding of HIS usage and context. It’s pretty obvious he cares less about the semantics and more about you understanding his point of objection.

            Peace.

          • Wodowsan

            I think we have understanding.

          • lala lala

            agree on your comment i’m been argue with him about american (not whole) has deep hatred on other nationality too and need show him that ”proof”
            there are that type of hardcore anti government on internet who will also make point mock on ordinary citizens even if told them not supporter of government they against.

          • lala lala

            if you believe i’m defending that there are racist hatred in china,so are you who went defense mode when i point out that american neitizens. In reality most would not express their extreme hatred in public unless he/she is involve in extremist organization like kkk for example

          • lala lala

            seem like my reply not showing

          • lala lala

            if you believe i’m defending that there are racist hatred in china,so are you who went defense mode when i point out that american neitizens are no better. In reality most would not express their extreme hatred in public unless he/she is involve in extremist organization like kkk for example

          • Wodowsan

            ok you win:
            anonymous “American” loons on the internet are filled with hate. So I guess that means it is ok for the Party to fan hatred of Americans and Japanese in the government controlled media and Chinese education system. It is ok for Chinese to insult foreigners on the streets, be happy when natural disasters or terrorist attacks happen to them, and it is ok to burn and destroy Japanese made products and attack your fellow Chinese that sell or buy the products. It is also ok children of mixed parentage to be picked on in school by their Chinese classmates
            .
            Let me ask you. Since you are convinced that Americans are closet racist that won’t scream out their hate in public like the KKK or Nazis, but neither the less hate Chinese in their hearts and minds, why would Americans hate the Chinese people? For what reason would we have all this bottled up hate that you are convinced we do?

            Also it really is amazing that you can see into the hearts and minds of people you have never actually even met. That really is an amazing skill

          • Kai

            Jeebus, you said “too many” and he said “a lot”, neither of which is “all” so neither of you should be trying to diminish the petty racism and bigotry that is present in each respective country in a ego-preserving effort to determine which country or nationality is “better or worse”.

            I’d agree with you Wodowsan that I have more misleading vividness about Chinese bigotry than American bigotry but not for a second would I doubt or demand proof of American bigotry and gloating over the Sichuan Earthquake, the Tibetan Riots, the Xinjiang Riots, the Japanese Earthquake, the Indian Ocean Tsunami, or even domestic Hurricane Katrina, all of which had some really obnoxious idiocy ranging from internet comments to songs being written, performaned, and broadcasted on the radio.

            Hell, I wouldn’t even say its misleading vividness, I happen to think Chinese people are often quite frankly a lot more insensitive about their idiotic prejudices, not unsimilar to other Asians like Koreans and Japanese. It’s fucking embarrassing.

            Still, it is also embarrassing to see you react so defensively to someone suggesting there’s “a lot” of that sort of shit from Americans too. You could see “too many” gloating or “karmic retribution” remarks on “too many” of the American media reports about the Kunming attack just a few days ago.

            http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/03/world/asia/china-railway-attack/
            http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/02/world/asia/china-kunming-attack-families/

            And this is on CNN which is already ostensibly moderated for racism and which regularly closes comment sections on controversial international topics because of the inevitability of garbage remarks by some people (didn’t bother including the links for those cuz you won’t see anything now).

            You really want to go out on a limb and argue that it must’ve been other nationalities? Suggesting it can’t be Americans? Way to throw non-Americans under the bus with that one there.

            You try to justify this behavior (as if it was a justification) that in America we do the same thing. Something you have no evidence of accept random loon comments on comment pages, who may not even be Americans.

            True, pointing out that a certain group of people do something doesn’t justify another group of people doing it. The thing is, why do you think lala lala was trying to justify it? Is it not more likely that he’s being defensive (somewhat needlessly IMO) and reminding everyone that it isn’t unique to China and Chinese people? Where does he say its justified if Americans do it?

            Racism is a much bigger problem in China than it is in the U.S.Did he say it’s worse in America with Americans?

            Did he say it was worse in America with Americans? No, so we’re forced to conclude your defensiveness is manifesting in trying to establish which people are more racist and have more personally vivid racist incidents to recall. Do you really think that’s wise?

            It is clear that both of you are projecting your own racist attitudes onto others. Thinking that this then justifies your own hate.

            I don’t see the other person (EDIT: Oh, it’s Alex, I see him now, but I’ll respond on that thread separately if I feel the need to), only lala lala so with that said, how exactly was he projecting his own racist attitude onto others? By testifying that he’s seen a lot of American say shitty things too after foreign disasters? How exactly again did he think this “then justifies” his own hate? I didn’t get the impression he expressed any hate of his own? It seems more like you’re projecting this feeling of justification onto him, isn’t it?

            Since this American hatred towards Chinese was not evident to me, I asked both of you to present proof of this ingrained societal and government sponsored hatred by Americans towards the Chinese people.

            Moving goalposts. lala lala never argued that there was “ingrained societal and government sponsored hatred by Americans towards the Chinese people” yet you’re now asking him to prove it? No, all he did was say Americans have made gloating remarks too, to which you responded by presenting an entire platform about “ingrained scietal and government-sponsored hatred by Chinese towards Americans and Japanese” in an effort to justify your initial quite simple observation that “too many” Chinese people gloat at the disasters of others, presumably because that makes Chinese gloating that much more heinous than non-Chinese gloating and thus why American gloating either doesn’t exist or isn’t worth bringing up to establish that gloating happens universally?

            When you know that is not what I said.

            Couldn’t he have sighed the same thing about your responses to him?

            For your information the Nazi Party in Germany, and the Tojo regime in Imperial Japan both conducted massive censorship in their countries, their governments controlled all media, they outlawed other political parties, they imprisoned their own citizens that challenged government policies, they heightened nationalism, and inflamed an attitude that their people were superior to other peoples of other nations, they both claimed territories controlled by other nations as historically and culturally theirs, they advocated it was their time, and their right, to be world powers, but they told their people the western powers were purposely holding them back and had “humiliated” them in the past. – Sound like any government in today’s world to you?

            So the guy says Americans have gloated at others’ misfortunes too, and you respond by likening his government to the Nazis? Overwhelming overreaction much?

            A lot of Koreans and observers of Korea have the same critcisms of the Korean government, shall we start likening them to the Nazis too? If you didn’t know, and think it impossible because they’re ostensibly “democratic” and a US ally, do some research? Here: koreabang.com

            Is it comparable to the scale and depth of China? Personally, in some ways, maybe (security law, check out the controversy), but not so much in other ways. However, my point is that you are overzealous in your defense and counterattack against lala lala for having the temerity to point out Americans have gloated at others as well. “What? Americans have gloated too? No way! Doesn’t your government sound like the Nazis?”

            There are “anonymous internet loons” in both (all) countries, so please let’s stop disingenuously marginalizing them for only the US but not others. As a moderator for cS, I’ve seen plenty of obnoxious comments by Americans and just about every nationality. There’s also compelling sociological reasons for why Asians are more shameless about their prejudices compared to a far more multicultural US that has actually gone through civil rights and political correctness movements. Before you misinterpret this statement as me “justifying” Asian racism, this is not an excuse for such behavior but a point to help you better understand what factors feed into racism in order to subsequently fight it.

            So I guess that means it is ok for the Party to fan hatred of Americans and Japanese in the government controlled media and Chinese education system. It is ok for Chinese to insult foreigners on the streets, be happy when natural disasters or terrorist attacks happen to them, and it is ok to burn and destroy Japanese made products and attack your fellow Chinese that sell or buy the products. It is also ok children of mixed parentage to be picked on in school by their Chinese classmates

            Holy cow, melodramatic. Nowhere does lala lala suggest ANY of this. This is ALL projected onto him by you. Where does he ever suggest it is “ok” for any of this?

            Since you are convinced that Americans are closet racist

            Again, where did he suggest this much less suggest he is “convinced”? I’m pretty sure I’m reading the same conversation thread you are but where are you getting these notions about him? Straw man?

            lala’s comment:

            In reality most would not express their extreme hatred in public unless he/she is involve in extremist organization like kkk for example

            …is about his recognition for political correctness in American public society, that people might say terrible things in private, or anonymously on the internet, things they actually believe but are cautious enough not to say in public. This notion isn’t strange. This doesn’t mean @disqus_jxu7OZUeX6:disqus is saying he “can see into the hearts of minds” of other people.

            I think somewhere along the line you built a straw man to take the place of @lala and have since then consistently been responding to this straw man instead of lala himself.

            EDIT: Turns out I’m not the only person who fears you’re strawmanning people when responding to them: http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/kunming-train-station-terrorist-attack-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1278142401

          • Alex Dương

            I don’t understand why you are so insistent on claiming that there is no racism in the U.S. or that it is effectively nonexistent. In the 2010 Congressional elections, the “Evil Chinese Professor” ad aired.

            http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/evil-chinese-professor

            That ad clearly played on (centuries-old) fears of the “yellow peril,” this time with China as the focus. Senate candidate Pete Hoekstra did not learn any lesson from that as he proceeded to use his own “yellow peril”-inspired ad in 2012:

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/pete-hoekstra-ad-china_n_1256791.html

            (Ironically, Hoekstra is an immigrant to the U.S. whereas the actress in that ad is U.S.-born.)

            Lest I be misunderstood, which happens a lot when we discuss, I’m not saying that these ads prove that anti-Chinese sentiment is widespread in the U.S. Not at all. But it is really not credible to say that it doesn’t exist or is so rare that it can be written off as nonexistent.

            I don’t see why it is so disconcerting for you to agree that the U.S. has some racists. That the U.S. has some racists in no way condones that China has some racists too. In fact, one of the points of chinaSMACK is that at the end of the day, we’re all basically the same. You seem to want to deny this and argue that China has racists but the U.S. doesn’t. Why, I have no idea.

          • lala lala

            yeah huh i need that ”proof” you been saying before i can start judging american.

          • lala lala

            yeah huh i need that ”proof” you been saying before i can start judging american

          • Wodowsan

            So you basically need proof that there is no wholesale societal hatred of Chinese in America before you believe they do not hate Chinese as you feel they do?
            I feel sorry for you that you think the worse of your fellowman. I never suspected the hatred in Chinese society towards non-Chinese until I experienced it first hand and began reading the Chinese government’s controlled media.
            Even after I had experienced it I still do not believe that government sponsored hatred towards Americans and Japanese is accepted by most Chinese. I still do not belief most Chinese are narrow minded bigots as you clearly seem to be. I may be wrong, but I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, in spite the large number of racists there are clearly in China. I still do not think that is most Chinese. It is a large minority, but still a minority that unfortunate seems to be running the government there.

          • whuddyasack

            The thing is you know that that Chinese media, which
            is sponsored and controlled by the Party, does flame racial
            hatred.

            Well, that’s a very strong assertion and in the West, you actually need proof before slandering someone for racism. How do you know that “many” Chinese were celebrating 9/11, the Boston Bombing, the Japanese Earthquake, etc, etc? I can assure you, I don’t know a single Chinese with these feelings much less “many”. I know that those who made such gloating and hideous posts were very strongly slammed by the majority and rightly so.

            As for government sponsored hatred, you’re talking about War or Resistance movies I assume. Can’t really think of any anti-American films as of late or even the existence of many. The correct word for anti-Japanese sentiment isn’t racism as Japanese are not a race much less too different from the Chinese, it’s nationalism. Sure, I can understand if you’re talking about Blacks, Whites, Indians vs Chinese as they are separate races. I’d even reluctantly agree if you’re talking about Southeast Asians like Filipinos, Thais, Burmese, Indonesians and Malays vs Chinese assuming you are basing it on physical aspects.

            Nationalism is very unreasonable and having no place in a civilized society. Yes, I’d agree. But no worse than nationalism and actual racism, which happens in the West amongst others. White people make fun of Black’s skin color, big noses (despite having freakin massive noses themselves), behavior, ugliness and low IQ. They make fun of Mexican accents and Arab beards. And they make fun of Asian eyes, short stature and various physical aspects.

            The ONLY physical aspect that Chinese attribute to the Japanese is small size. Everything other grievance is political, historical and character based. You want to know why? Hint, it’s not race.

            BTW no one degrades a Caucasian’s big nose, or an African’s dark skin. They just find those characteristics curious. How did White people’s noses grow so big. Wow. Are Africans dark because they don’t wash their skin? Hmmm….

            See what I mean.

          • mr.wiener

            [facepalm]

          • whuddyasack

            I think you facepalmed on the second last sentence. I was just being cheeky and mimicking the ignorance in “some” Chinese. Not racism, just pure ignorance and quite silly TBH. ;-)

          • whuddyasack

            So no proof of Americans happy about the Earthquake in Japan or in China, or the stabbings in Kunming.

            Here’s the proof you wanted, American reactions to Japanese Tsunami/Earthquake and also losing the World Cup:

            http://www.vice.com/read/tsunami-vs-pearl-harbor

            http://www.japanprobe.com/2011/07/18/ugly-american-racism-japs-pearl-harbor-trending-on-twitter-during-world-cup-match/

            http://skeptikai.com/2012/02/25/toxic-racism-against-japan-part-3/

            “We saw that almost 4 out of 10 Americans agree with the disturbing internet troll known as “Tamtampamela,” who said that the earthquake and tsunami in Japan were a result of God’s intervention.”

            There’s plenty on China and the Chinese.

            http://isitnormal.com/story/i-hate-the-chinese-7166/

            http://thediplomat.com/2012/03/the-risks-of-chinas-students/comment-page-1/#comments

            Actually I’ve noticed that thediplomat is one of the most hawkish sites around, every article related to China is negative and “anti-China” if we defined it the same way some broadly define Chinese “racism”. There is not ONE article that gives a genuine win-win scenario and it’s even more clear with the comments. They also have a bad habit of censoring Chinese comments they deem “offensive” while letting offensive comments against Chinese fly.

            Although if you really did want to find many hateful comments, just go to progressive, liberal sites like “cnn” and “bloomberg”

            At least on the internet, Americans hate Chinese “people”. Not just the Chinese government. That’s just an excuse, the same way Mao’s Cultural Revolution, the 60 million Chinese killed, the oppression of Tibetans and Uighurs (and other ethnic minorities according to the most clueless and hypocritical), the Tienanmen Square Massacre and the horrid, oppressive living conditions are used to bash Chinese people. The obvious lack of feeling for these things is actually quite disgusting TBH.

            Actually, there’s plenty of anti-Chinese sentiment and comments on this site should you choose to look and not ignore it. It’s not hard to find but nowadays I figure it’s best to leave them be ;-P

            P.S. I’m not singling out Americans, I realize that EVERYONE does the same thing and Americans aren’t necessarily the worst.

          • Wodowsan

            As I have stated before accept for loon comments on blogs, there is not institutional or deep seeded racism against Chinese by Americans. Your fist post even states

            “Well some PSYCHOS have taken those facts to their logical conclusion and decided that last week’s tsunami was overdue karma.” You notice they use the word Psychos, I often used the term loon which means the same thing. All societies have their crazies.
            I never denied there were anonymous loons in America. I do though say there is not intuitional racism in America against the Chinese or Japanese as you see in China against Americans, and especially against the Japanese.
            When was the last time in America you had people attacking Chinese restaurants? Or attacking fellow Americans for working or buying Chinese products?
            This Chinese hatred for non-Chinese is promoted by the Party in their control of the Chinese Media and in the education system. And you have many more
            The U.S. has racism, as all countries do, and we have also had a history of state sponsored racism, I do not deny that. Yet for the past 40 years since the civil rights act there has been a very positive effort to stamp out racism in America. We are a nation of many different types of people and have been forced to look into the mirror about this issue. In China where there is little contact with others not are not Han ren, there has not been this effort.
            To make matters worse the Party uses that racism as a tool to consolidate their power and divert the Chinese public from serious domestic problems and short comings of the Party.
            Again all your examples are only internet comments where you do not even know the nationalities of the posters. I noted that some of them were made by self hating Chinese. Does that mean there is institutional society of racism against Chinese in China?
            None of your examples are from university professors (as you have in China against Americans, and Japanese) none are from government officials (like you have in China) none are editorials from main stream media, (as you do in China) none are interviews with average Americans on the street. (Where in China you have had riots against American and Japanese companies in the past.
            Has any American ever told you directly that they hate the Chinese, or Japanese? I have had many Chinese tell me this to my face. Is all your proof to justify your own racism and defend government racism random anonymous posts on the internet?

          • whuddyasack

            Those facebookers were hardly anonymous. You could actually see their faces and names and:

            “we saw that almost 4 out of 10 Americans agree with the disturbing internet troll known as “Tamtampamela”

            But that is what you are basing your comments on. Racism online because this is the most obvious kind. Come on, be honest. If China’s racism was so bad then why don’t we hear of Japanese people being murdered on a daily basis there? Or White, Black, Brown, etc.?

            However in America:
            http://gawker.com/woman-beaten-to-death-over-an-accidental-photobomb-1511161901

            http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-13-asian-teens-bullied_x.htm?csp=34

            http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Attacked-Asian-Students-Fear-Returning-to-Class-78652997.html

            Don’t forget “Japanese” Vincent Chin while you’re at it. Of course there is no institutional racism. For the Blacks, Browns and Muslims i.e. people who react to persecution with great violence. It’s A-Ok to be racist towards Asians like Chinese though, especially the Chinese. Also, Chinese need to live with the fact that they are inherently racist and taught that way since birth. Nevermind out of everyone, they make the most effort to mix with completely different cultures and people. In that same light, there is no institutional racism towards Non-Chinese in China.

            If you read the Chinasmack articles about what American and Japanese disasters you’d noticed that most were generally sympathetic to them and the “loons” that did spit vitriol were in fact shot down. It seems there really is a disconnect between Chinese netizens and the rest of the world. I’ve seen plenty of blogs where Chinese criticized the violent riots and anti-Japanese protests.

            Has any American ever told you directly that they hate the Chinese, or Japanese? I have had many Chinese tell me this to my face. Is all your proof to justify your own racism and defend government racism random anonymous posts on the internet

            I’ll be honest with you since I don’t see the point in lying. No, no American has ever directly told me they hate Chinese/Japanese. I’ve never experienced racism in my entire life but I consider myself fortunate since I know people who do. Many in fact. Just because it never happened to me doesn’t mean I should overlook what others went through. It could have been me after all.

            In the same way, I’ve never met a Chinese that hated “Americans”, and I’ve never met any that hated Japanese people although I’m sure some do hate the latter.

            You say that I am racist, but don’t explain why. Please don’t turn into another POS (yes that was his user ID), I know you’re better than that. I honestly don’t think I am. Now anti-Japanese sentiment as I’ve explained cannot be considered racist. It is nationalistic and jingoistic, but most Chinese wouldn’t make fun of Japanese racially being pretty much the same thing themselves. None are going to use words like “Hey you fookin ugly gorilla looking nigga mothafucka” to Japanese like how Whites address Blacks and vice versa (yes, Blacks are hardly innocent themselves).

            Ethnic minorities

          • whuddyasack

            Actually, I think you mean ethnic minorities in which case you are very wrong. Perhaps there is discrimination and fear of Uighurs but other ethnic minorities, not so much… In fact, most “Han” openly make friends with the minorities, they never question how they are different
            culturally and treat them like their own. In fact, many like the minorities, certainly much more than the true “foreigners”. Quite the opposite of America, where there is racial division and politicians eagerly using this to score political points.

            That said, rural ethnic minorities, especially those in the mountains, are the most disadvantaged group of all. But “Han” are not busy making them feel like lesser human beings or discriminating against them. Most genuinely wish them well but the government needs to step up and in some cases, might have to consider independence or greater autonomy for certain minorities… the same right that is absolutely denied to native Americans and Alaskans.

            http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-05/22/content_16521245.htm

            http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-05/22/content_16521245.htm

            http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/ethnic/2012-12/09/content_15999701.htm

            1000 Tibetan children with heart disease receive free treatment. Yes, those Han Chinese are so evil and want to wipe out them Tibetans…

            That said it’s clear that the many Tibetans and Uighurs do not want to be part of China and don’t consider themselves to be. The right thing to do would of course be to handle this in a civilized way and allow these people to vote if they want to remain a part of China or independent just to be sure that secession is in fact the best solution for them.

            I disagree with the colonization but I also disagree on this supposed Han hatred towards the ethnic minorities, who comprise more than just Uighurs.

            Picture is of Evil Han Nurse and unhappy Tibetan children.

  • linette lee

    Cowards and useless terrorists. Only attack innocent people without weapons. I dare you to to hunt down all those corrupt China officials.

  • linette lee

    I often wonder all these complaints from Tibet and Uyghur people, can they really do that well without China supporting their people? If China cut them off completely and don’t have any business with them, what will happen to them? It’s just like North Koreans complain about China. What happens if China cut them off completely and don’t allow one single Korean refugee into the country or have any business with them? They really can die of starvation really fast. Sometimes these group of people they are more like a burden for China. Imagine if China use military force to seal off and form a border to ban them completely? Maybe this will be less headache for the China gov’t. China should really focus all their energy and money on improving China and the lives of their people especially the rural Chinese.

    • Kai

      At this point, they may very likely blame any problems they continue to suffer on having BEEN subjugated by China. If Chinese people can do that about imperialism, if African-Americans can do that about slavery, if racists and antimulticulturalists can do that about past and existing government policies of multiculturalism, if land-locked countries can blame others for land-locking them, so can the Tibetans and Uighurs. That’s human nature. To an extent, it’s not entirely fallacious. Where we are now is a product of all the history to this point. It’s just that, to another extent, you can’t blame everything on the past and have to start doing SOMETHING with the hand you are dealt with. Fortunately, most people intrinsically understand this even if their complaints are vocal and seemingly incessant to others. Life does go on.

      For example, a lot of Free Tibeters will argue that independence and self-determination is still better than any development China has brought Tibet. A lot of other Tibeters recognize that China has indeed brought development and that TIbet may not necessarily be better off overall independent. There’s a sort of rationality on every side. What isn’t rational is anyone refusing to acknowledge things just because they think doing so weakens their position.

      • linette lee

        But the Tibet guy I’ve met told me China treats them like 2nd class citizens. Is that true? He even used the word “black” like China treat them just like how White folks treated the Black back then in USA. Is that true even right now? I am surprised because China is made up of 50 plus minority groups. How can one group be more superior than another group when they have been living together for such a long time especially when they can all speak the same language Chinese. In Hong Kong even there are mixture of so many people from different background, as long as you are HK citizens and speak the language you are local to the HK people.

        • Dax

          If it were true, they probably wouldn’t have to put it on the side of a tank…

          • linette lee

            藏漢一家親. Well at least the China gov’t is trying to promote Tibet and Han are one family. One family but they will still shoot your a55 if you rebel. lol.

        • Kai

          I don’t know what to tell you other than to suggest taking the time to do some more research into the issue online. There’s a wealth of information and perspectives on the internet that combined will show the sheer complexity of the issue.

          Here’s a good starting point with links to other Wikipedia pages that also flesh out the involved and related issues:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_independence_movement

        • Irvin

          Instead of believing everything you hear like a sheep, why don’t you go to tibet and see for yourself?

          • Dick Leigh

            Because it’s exceptionally hard to go to places like Xinjiang and Tibet and be a tourist. You can’t even backpack now, you need to apply for a visa and provide proof that you’ll be on a “package tour” (the kind that don’t let you have extended private conversations with locals).

          • Rick in China

            Foreign coworker just went to Tibet – about a month and a half ago before the CNY holiday, along with her husband. They seemed to get it all sorted easily and enjoyed their trip. I too was surprised, thought it was harder than it seems it really is.

          • Teacher in China

            I went there back in 2006. It was pretty easy indeed, even managed to not have to join a tour group or anything. Just went as an independent traveler. From what I understand, it can change quite frequently, depending on what the situation is on the ground in Tibet. Maybe I went at a particularly peaceful time.

          • linette lee

            So why don’t you move your a55 there and stay there? lol.

          • ghormax

            I think visiting won’t give you an understanding of the problems, especially not of ethnic minorities.

          • Irvin

            And reading about it and speculating does?

          • ghormax

            I think the only thing that would help is go there and talk with people, live with them for some time, and experience it first hand.

        • Gordon Gogodancer

          myeah…that’s why this problem exist

        • Lord_Helmet

          And you are back to being a moron. You did not last long huh?

      • RothschildIsMoney

        Except, there is no rationality on the separatist side. They wanting an impossibility and they knew it. The only question worth asking here is “Cui bono?”. We need to be conscious that these people are being spoon fed by foreign agency. As it may sound hysterical, but the reality is foreign involvement really does exist.

        People tend to make it sounds more complicated than what actually is. This is not a complex problem. Many NGOs (non-governmental organization) out there funded by those who have national interest or agenda. All these so called “freedom movement” is nothing more than just a geopolitik game.

        • ScottLoar

          Yes, we all know the state cathecism:

          1) The West (that amorphous thing comprised of white people with prejudice) fears China, wants to see it “balkanized”, and wants to stop China’s “peaceful rise” to deserved greatness;
          2) NGOs are really just a cover for foreign especially USA intelligence operations;
          3) Domestic problems of China are most often created and always aggravated by foreigners, especially the USA;
          4) The world is better off without the USA and needs China as example to all the world;
          5) China and the Chinese deserve greatness and will not be denied their destiny no matter which country, especially the USA, stands opposed;
          6) The Chinese harmonious way is superior to all else, especially superior to the decadence and decay of the USA;
          7) The way of the CCP is the saviour of Chinese people and civilization, and must guard against calculations and pollution by The West, especially the USA.

          • RothschildIsMoney

            Stop talking nonsense. You are trying to labeled me with a prejudiced mentality that everything that’s defending China is pro-CCP. You don’t agree with somebody’s argument, so immediately your idea is to waste somebody.

            World politics is driven by competitive self-interest. The US is just same as any other countries who owned power. I don’t trust CCP, so why should i trust US either? Look up at the US history, US is the most notable when it comes to political interventionism around the world. My accusation toward US is not simply based on fallacy. But fact. The Tibetans did indeed get CIA backing during 50’s. You maybe hate to hear that don’t you. But that’s reality.

          • ScottLoar

            No, I never said or implied that “everything that’s defending China is pro-CCP” and if you look at my comments here and elsewhere (just click the moniker and read) you would know so. Your inference is an insult.

            World politics is not always driven by competitive self-interest; in the instance of China most definitely but the US? Why Kosovo for example? If you truly want to understand how the US thinks and what drives its foreign policy considerations you can begin here, , http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2014/03/01/putin-smashes-washingtons-cocoon/

            and begin to understand how Americans in general and the US government in particular see the world, which is quite different from almost any other country. I invite contrary examples.

            Harkingback to the Cold War politics of the 50’s, when China was under the control of a single person and spit venom daily like North Korea today, does not serve your argument.

            The reality is China’s problems are very much of their own making, and blaming others does not convince the bulk of the Chinese population despite one RothschildIsMoney’s insistence.

            Again, China’s state catechism is well known and you needn’t repeat it here; there is nothing new, novel or original in your comments, just repetition of what we read and hear daily from China’s news opinion.

          • RothschildIsMoney

            No, you are in denial. You labeled me and that is an insult too for me.

            If you view it from ethnocentric point of view, then US is no or less as the instance. Because maybe for you the US supposed to be “good guys”. Geopolitik always gray.

            In case of Kosovo, US intervention was not based on altruism. Yugoslavia is a Communist state. Prior of disintegration, war, boycott, and embargo by the US, former Yugoslavia were self-sufficient, their industrial sectors was productive.

            Again, no. You start casting Cold War politics as being binary issues, where one side is always absolutely right and the other always in the wrong.

            I agree that China needs to fix its problems. But my previous comment has nothing to do with this. You misunderstood me.

            If you disagree with me, fine. However, If you think i am a product of state catechism, then you are ignorant.

          • ScottLoar

            Let’s skip through your silly assumptions about me, my thoughts, my readings, my ethnicity and nationality to this:

            “However, If you think i am a product of state catechism, then you are ignorant.”

            I listed 7 points typical of China news opinion, and your comments coincide in general and at times specifically to those points. Of course you are a product of state catechism, otherwise you would have thought these matters through and realized the absurdity of your comments.

            Again, you are not subtle, your background shows.

          • RothschildIsMoney

            But you need to understand how things the way they are, dear. No matter how you insisted, none of your points are valid. You create your own ideal of me based on limited knowledge of yours. This debate is going nowhere. Let’s hope this is my last reply.

      • Butsu

        For Tibetans isn’t it more of a, full religious freedom rather than being ‘free’ from China?

        • Kai

          Which Tibetans? How do you interpret full religious freedom in Tibetan Buddhism? How does religion and politics intersect in Tibetan Buddhism? These are all relevant questions in the whole mess.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      I have read somewhere that while Muslims of other Chinese ethnic groups (such as Hui) are allowed to practise their faith (e.g. fasting) the Uigyers (and Muslims in Xinjiang) are not. For example, government officials might visit some people in their homes or uigyer business owners and offer them fruit or food or tea in the month that Muslims fast. If they do not eat or drink, then trouble will come their way.

      So such policy may be blamed on the Chiense gov’t if true. The rest, of my point kinda follows Kai’s.

    • Rick in China

      Linette, come on, Xinjiang is China’s LARGEST gas producing region and has HUGE oil reserves.

      Xinjiang would be UAE rich if PRC didn’t suck up all their shit to build infrastructure in 1st/2nd tier cities and line corrupt pockets with red maos.

      If ‘your people’ would be oil rich, except another ethnicity claimed all the land your people have occupied since antiquity and continued to suck up the resources and try to oppress your religious and personal freedoms, you wouldn’t be thinking “Oh, gee, glad daddy China is looking after us and bringing us so much modern benefit.”

      • linette lee

        oh….it’s all about resource. I see. I just read the population there is like 50% Uyghur and like 40% Hans. That land has a long history or invasion and ruled by different kingdoms.
        China needs to come up with a better governing system for the people there. Let the Uyghur have their own religious practice.

        • Zappa Frank

          did you also read that the biggest part of han population is just arrived in the last 50 years and that it is basically a colonization?

    • Misiooo

      You are on the same page with Japan back in 1930s: ” How these poor Manchu and Chinese can live if Japan cut them off completely.(…) Sometimes
      these group of people they are more like a burden for Japan.”

  • Dr Sun

    Probably the busiest and worst day of my life, never thought this would happen here in Kunming, 16 hours in surgery with multiple patients, some we could save, many we could not. The injuries were horrendous, major trauma to the major blood vessels in the neck and to the trachea. As a man that has spent my life trying to help, I say I hope these bastards are caught and suffer the full horrors of the Chinese police and legal system.

    • Kai

      And here we assumed your name had no other significance…

      I just saw what is purportedly the face of the first police officer who responded to the incident. Not pretty.

      • Dr Sun

        Kai, I have to say most people here in Kunming are completely stunned, paralyzed by this horror attack upon innocent people by these terrorist killers.The Yunnanese be they Han or one of the many minorities are the nicest and friendliest people I have ever met in the world. I understand that most people in the west think supporting the terrorists against china is a cool, hip and dandy thing, but if they had been in #1 Affiliated Hospital last night and it was their innocent daughter bleeding out on the floor, they may want to think again about their support for terrorists.

        • Kai

          I’d really like to believe most people in the West don’t think its cool to support terrorists as long as its against a country they are prejudiced against just as I’d like to believe people realize that there was a majority of Chinese who did not gloat about the earthquake in Japan and that the Chinese government aligned itself with the US’s War on Terror after 9/11. There’s a lot of forgetting of the the decent majority because of the misleading vividness of the minority. Or at least I’d really like to believe so. Otherwise, all of this selective memory is just seeding future generalized resentment.

          So you’re actually a doctor and were in surgery at a hospital involved?

          • Dr Sun

            yes on all points Kai

    • Mighty曹

      As a doctor whose profession is a commitment to saving lives you cannot allow your emotion to choose sides. But we all know this is impossible.

      • Dr Sun

        My side is that if you choose to murder innocent civilians in cold blood be that in a cinema in the U.S, with a drone strike in Pakistan or in a railway station in China, you should be tried, convicted and punished according to the laws of that country

        • Mighty曹

          That’s everybody’s side. I’m just saying that for someone whose profession is to save lives it’s difficult to choose sides. Tell me, if one or some of the injured or wounded being treated at the hospital happen to be the culprits would you still treat them as patients? Or as terrorists?

        • Fumanchu

          with you on that

  • 5000 years of history

    There is one picture with a dead guy laying flat behind him are two people using the machines buying tickets.

    • Kai

      Heh, life goes on.

    • linette lee

      To Chinese is just another way of population control. Chinese don’t value life like America with their own citizens.

      • lala lala

        if american do value life,people wouldn’t be killing their own citizens over iphone or pair of jordans. If the hkese elites do care about the hk dogs they woundn’t be selling it out it to commies or hk- dog themselves can fight for their city and turn into another kiev.

  • 5000 years of history

    Bush did it!

    • yawei Li

      this is an inside job for sure!

  • Stefan Xu

    Give the Uyghur dominated western part of Xinjiang independence. In that part Han only make up less than 10%. Problem solved.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Xinjiang_nationalities_by_prefecture_2000.png

    • linette lee

      How about just give the whole part of Uyghur independence and treat them like a country. Seal the border. Like the China gov’t mind their own business and their people. Problem solved.

    • Dr Sun

      Give California back to mexico, give the Crimea to Russia, give Kashmir to Pakistan, Give Alaska to Canada, give Northern Ireland to south, give south Korea to the North and give independence to the Geordies in the Uk… any thing else.

      • linette lee

        hahaha lol…yes yes yes…..
        You work in a hospital in China? Is it really true that China hospital management give patients tests and meds patients didn’t need just to collect more money?

        • Dr Sun

          yeah, same as they do everywhere Linette.

    • mr.wiener

      Stefan……just don’t.

  • 5000 years of history

    Try your best to avoid gathering crowds? Where in China is that?

  • Dr Sun

    The Uyghur are trying to assimilate the Han by killing them ?

    I don’t follow your argument

  • FilthySwit

    More religious silliness.

    • SimpsonsGoldenAge

      It’s not all related to religious actually, there’s a wider cultural element that is considered

      • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

        People will see this as a religious one since Muslims are involved when they do not know the wider context of things. Now if this involved Tibet and Buhddist, the reaction from such commentators will be different.

  • Mighty曹

    Fortunately not all Uyghurs support these separatists but, unfortunately, after an attack like this it’s easy for people categorize them all as terrorists. Thus the cycle of ethnic tensions.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      I get mistaken as a Uygur here in China. They either see me in this order Uygur – Indian – Arab – Filipino.

      • Mighty曹

        That’s a wide range of looks. I get mistaken as Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, and sometimes Filipino.

        • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

          I can understand Indian and Arab. They’re in my blood somewhat. But the first and the last…I think it is down to people not meeting as much foreigners.

          I have seen Uyghers and from my sperpective, some of them look like Pakistanis from the north. So that could be the reason. The filipino one I don’t get. I got that in Korea too though.

          I can always overhear the conversation “Is that a xinjiang-ren? Or laowai?” conversation happening. They discuss where I am from. Maybe next time I’ll say “Actually, I am from England!”

          • linette lee

            lol..that is a very wide range of looks. From Uyghers to filipino. It’s okay, don’t feel bad when people can not tell. Here in USA people usually think I am Chinese or Japanese. People mistaken me most of the time as Japanese when I have dark hair without a suntan. When I get a suntan and dye my hair brown many mistaken me as Latina. They didn’t know I am Chinese. They speak to me in Spanish. lol. When I bleach my hair blonde without a suntan some Russians speak to me in Russian in the Chinese Russian neighborhood. They didn’t know I am Chinese.

            It’s like a stereotype. Some people can’t tell so they just go by the stereotype. Like Chinese dark hair light yellow skin. Spanish brown hair tan skin. Russian blonde hair pale skin.

          • Mighty曹

            Some Afghans have that feature too. I’m always fascinated by how people from different regions look.

            Hahaha… if you tell them you’re from England they’ll get very confused.

          • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

            I think there are something like 4 main groups in Afghanistan, with one of the groups in the south and that group basically overlaps the north of Pakistan. I think they are the Pasthuns.

    • yawei Li

      this is an inside job!

  • Kai

    Never?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Tibetan_unrest

    What originally began as an annual observance of Tibetan Uprising Day resulted in street protests by monks, that later descended into rioting, burning, looting, and killing by March 14.[2] The violence was mostly directed at Han and Hui civilians by Tibetans participating in the unrest.[3]

    The mob attacked a mosque, hardly a symbol of the Chinese state. This is what happens when stupidity prevails in mobs who get started on one grievance or another. Tibetan mobs are as falliably human as Chinese mobs angry about the Diaoyu Islands coming across a Japanese car.

    The point though is that making such black and white generalizations is pretty unproductive. There’s legitimate grievances by both Tibetans and Uighurs but also bad apples amongst both when most people of both just want to get by in life, like most Chinese.

  • linette lee

    Yes, that darker guy looks like Tibetan. Very handsome.

  • Shiro24

    I lived in the beautiful Kunming for some time, a city where minorities live in peace with the han. may the victim souls find peace.

  • gaga

    I don’t think people realize this, terrorism simply doesn’t work against a country like China, if the PR is bad, the government simply ban out any media exposures, if it’s worst enough, the people will hate the terrorists more.

    • Eidolon

      Terrorism isn’t about convincing the people you’re terrorizing that you follow a just cause. It isn’t to make you sympathetic.

      Terrorism is about creating terror, en masse, in order to escalate a conflict, dissuade migrants into your region, and ultimately make it costly for the government/people you’re attacking to continue doing what they’re doing.

  • wow such hatred much death so violent

  • securitywhiz@gmail.com

    Moo-slums doing what they do best. China needs to round them ’em up and exterminate them otherwise they will just keep on killing.

    • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

      yes, lets kill people of a certain group. Sounds familier.

  • Thericeking

    Look at the Chinese people still buying tickets on the machine. Are Chinese people this cold?

  • This individual event has run its course – the next question is going to be ‘what is next’? There are more than a few dozen articles about individual attacks with knives around China for the last few years – but until now, they may have not been a voice the sales and distribution of them. If nothing else, this reminds of the ‘black ponder incident’ a few months back:

    http://blog.chinadaily.com.cn/blog-135031-11419.html

    Truth? It has been another blow for the ‘status quo’ of “Harmony” that has lulled too many for too long.

  • Insomnicide

    Multiculturalism simply does not work in old world countries. This is an example of that.

    • Honibaz

      Actually with the current state of mind of people, it doesn’t work well anywhere. If a person of a different culture doesn’t assimilate to mainstream society, there is bound to be social conflict. For example, European countries that receive a large number of Muslim refugees are becoming increasingly intolerant of many of them the refugees relying on welfare and not integrating into their host culture.

  • don mario

    fucking cowardly SCUM. if they have a problem why dont they start stabbing up CCP members and chengguan? oh yea they wont because they are fucking human garbage. well, GOOD WORK GUYS. now your people are going to get fucked over even more than usual, might aswell say bye bye to this ethnic group.

  • anon101

    I lived in china for 5 years, I cant say i remember a single trainstation without a whole load of police and some army guys around as well as secret police.. what were they doing?

    • Foreign Devil

      well they did not get away. . they shot most of them. The amount of casualties is because it is china and people are packed like sardines in train stations. . I’m guessing quite a few of the deaths and injuries must have been from stray police and security bullets. .

  • mr.wiener

    I wish you would make you sarcasm sound less like you believed it.

  • Boris_Da_Bengal_Tiger

    Depends where in Europe, no? UK’s NHS has no need to give extra tests than necessary, as it relies on tax payers. Now, the dental care and costs is another thing. That is partly or mostly private and cost has risen a lot.

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