Nanjing Massacre Memorial Day, Chinese Netizen Reactions

The Memorial Hall of the Victims in Nanjing Massacre by Japanese Invaders, 2014 December 13 National Nanjing Massacre Memorial Day.

Yesterday was China’s first National Nanjing Massacre Memorial Day. Major media and especially state-media all published content marking the day and its significance. Below is state-broadcaster CCTV News’s contribution that topped Chinese microblogging platform Sina Weibo.

From Sina Weibo:

@央视新闻 [CCTV News]: #Today is National Memorial Day# Today, No Matter Where You Are, Let Us Use the Resharing of Microblog Posts to Pay Our Respects to Our Compatriots! — 77 years ago, starting from 1937 December 13, the Imperial Japanese Army carried our a massacre in Nanjing that last over 40 days! Shooting dead, burying alive, cutting people down. [悲伤] Over 300,000 of our compatriots were murdered, as Imperial Japanese soldiers applauded and wildly laughed. To this day, some in Japan who want to restore [Japanese] power still vainly try to deny history! Today, the Nanjing Massacre once again rings the alarm. Forward/reshare this, and let even more people know the truth! Never forget history!

"On this day that year, they massacred Chinese people while applauding and laughing."

“On this day that year, they massacred Chinese people while applauding and laughing.”

"On this day that year, at the hands of the Imperial Japanese Army, our fellow countrymen were shot dead, buried alive, and cut down..."

“On this day that year, at the hands of the Imperial Japanese Army, our fellow countrymen were shot dead, buried alive, and cut down…”

"On this day that year, the Imperial Japanese Army even went so far as to have competitions in massacring Chinese people."

“On this day that year, the Imperial Japanese Army even went so far as to have competitions in massacring Chinese people.”

"On this day that year, many families were broken and destroyed by the Imperial Japanese Army."

“On this day that year, many families were broken and destroyed by the Imperial Japanese Army.”

"On this day that year, Imperial Japanese soldiers broke into her home, then violently raped and killed her mother and two sisters."

“On this day that year, Imperial Japanese soldiers broke into her home, then violently raped and killed her mother and two sisters.”

"On this day that year, many women were trampled upon then cruelly murdered by the Imperial Japanese Army."

“On this day that year, many women were trampled upon then cruelly murdered by the Imperial Japanese Army.”

"Within the over 40 days, 300,000 Chinese people were murdered by the Imperial Japanese Army!"

“Within the over 40 days, 300,000 Chinese people were murdered by the Imperial Japanese Army!”

"On this day at this moment, far-right groups in Japan still deny history."

“On this day at this moment, far-right groups in Japan still deny history.”

"At this moment, no matter where you are, please pass this part of history onto even more people. Don't let this part of history be silenced. Remember our compatriots! Pray for peace!"

“At this moment, no matter where you are, please pass this part of history onto even more people. Don’t let this part of history be silenced. Remember our compatriots! Pray for peace!”

Comments from Sina Weibo:

贝壳小翘:

What the Japanese people launched against China was not a war but the genocide of a nationality by another nationality. The War of Resistance Against Japan should not be called a humiliation [disgrace, shame], and the government’s propagation of this is wrong. Japan’s invasion of China is Japan’s disgrace/shame, as it was the Japanese who lost their humanity. Vautrin wrote in her diary: Militarily, the occupation of Nanjing may be considered a victory for the Imperial Japanese military, but in terms of morality, it is a defeat, the shame of the Japanese people.

屌丝和泡面:

A strong country is not realized through the resharing of microblog posts.

乌苏里北望:

Only two modes have existed for Japan historically: Invading China and preparing to invade China. Sino-Japanese friendly relations has not existed in the past, does not exist now, and will not exist in the future!

迎春花_笑:

Please stop the promotion of the national humiliation narrative, as no one was our shame. For our happiness, our forefathers chose sacrifice, yet we again and again use so-called “national humiliation” to discount our forefathers’ war. On one hand saying you shouldn’t hold a grudge against Japan because that’s all in the past, and on the other hand shouting to never forget [our country’s] national humiliation. So the Japanese who started the war can bear absolutely no responsibility but the Chinese who were victimized have to bear all the humiliation/disgrace/shame? When will this strange public notion stop?

妙榧:

To solemnly commemorate those who died is not about unburdening ourselves or about advocating nationalistic vengeance but about reminding every single one of us that we are more than just individual selves, our families, and our friends, more than our bloodlines, our social circles, and our native soil, that we are a collective, and that avoiding a repeat of a historical tragedy is our collective responsibility and duty. –National [Nanjing Massacre] Memorial Day

骑马的乌龟:

No matter how much we respect each others’ culture, as before we have not been able to erase the seething history within our blood. There are no ifs in history. For the first National Memorial Day, let us remember [the dead] with the honor of the country that prevailed, and have the hundred years of humiliation be our wake-up call. Let us struggle for the rise of China!

瓶中的丑小鸭:

To forget the massacre is paramount to a second massacre!

沫璐之茧:

What’s the point of posting these things every day? Patriotism is not something you just pay lip-service to. Right now, how many of our countrymen are buying Japanese products? If you love your country, then you should refuse to buy Japanese products, and those in the country’s Product Quality Bureau should be diligent in monitoring the quality of domestic products.

圆圆安vv:

Hearing the national anthem, seeing the national flag being raised and then lowered, I actually teared up… [泪][泪][泪] 1213 never forget national humiliation. [蜡烛][蜡烛][蜡烛]

瞳小曈:

Japanese people, sons of bitches.

和风Jason:

Who should those that died in the Cultural Revolution turn to??? Just who is not facing history?

惊鳄之鱼:

War is the best test of the spirit of a nation’s people. In every war, the very first to be sacrificed are all the people who form the backbone of the nationality. History is solemn and tragic, but the spirit of our people is to never be defeated and never to vanish quietly. This is why Japan attacked China and went eight years without defeating it, whereas Japan was quickly vanquished in 1945 after the Allied counterattack.

圈大哥:

Our countrymen must strive for self-improvement, as falling behind/being backwards will result in being bullied and insulted! Remembering the Nanjing Massacre is not about passing on a resentment/grudge/hate but to have ourselves remember that it was backwardness and weakness that allowed the humiliation of being invaded, massacred, and tyrannized by others. So let us not allow a repeat of history!

西湖赏雪:

Soon there will be Chinese traitors bringing up the civil wars in Chinese history, sparing no effort to whitewash little Japan.

It is worth noting that some of the above highly-upvoted comments were made by accounts with little past activity.

Did we cover them all? Not sure we did, but hopefully we covered enough to perhaps reveal something interesting, amusing, or even exasperating. What did this pattern tell us? About CCTV? About Sina Weibo? About Chinese netizens? About internet comments? If you appreciate our translations and coverage, and wonder what else may have been trending yesterday, please check out our Patreon campaign and see how you can help our work. Cheers.
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  • Rick in China

    I wonder when Tibetans will be able to “ring the alarm”..

    • Alex Dương

      The TGiE and other exile activist groups ring it all the time. The difference is that there’s no evidence for their oft-cited “1.2 million dead” claim.

      • Rick in China

        Sorry, what? I believe the only valid report that one can read and trust on the matter is the ICJ’s report, which was conducted in 1960 on behalf of the UN, and through investigation…..to summarize, as pertaining specifically to some of the atrocities mentioned most in the types of article such as this one, I’ll list 2 of the (many) items ICJ put their mark on as being results of their investigation:

        ARTICLE 3

        The right to life, liberty and security of person was violated by acts of murder, rape and arbitrary imprisonment.

        ARTICLE 5

        Torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment were inflicted on the Tibetans on a large scale.

        They also found that genocide was being perpetrated not based on race/nationality/etc, but within international legal confines of “due to religion”. If you have an issue with the Tibetan issue, I suggest you also make it clear you have an issue with the validity of the ICJ…is it a farse, also? Are their findings “bullshit”? Do you have some better more valid source of a report, or just PRC denials?

        It’s important to note here that when they talk about the “1.2million” number, I’m guessing they’re throwing in all the estimated dead due to starvation during the great leap, and by no means implying that it was all aggressive/military results but also due to forced policies.

        • Alex Dương

          They also found that genocide was being perpetrated not based on
          race/nationality/etc, but within international legal confines of “due to
          religion”.

          Good, so you’re honest enough to admit that even your favored “only valid report” admits that there’s no evidence whatsoever that the Chinese ever murdered 1.2 million Tibetans after 1951. In an article about the Nanjing Massacre, which involved physical genocide, you are talking about Chinese suppression of religion.

          Not exactly apples-to-apples, Rick.

          • Rick in China

            Want to talk about apples to apples? How about intentionally misinterpreting something to fit your narrative?

            you are talking about Chinese suppression of religion.

            Yes, through, as the ICJ (show me a better authority before you ‘counter’ with ‘fact’, please) indicate, GENOCIDE took place – through murder and rape. I never said, nor did anyone or any authority release information that I’ve seen, indicating that 1.2 million people were murdered during that time period..but rather they say things like “resulting in the death of…”. There is a difference between “X people died as a result of” and “X people were murdered” – however, I think you know that, and are just being intellectually dishonest.

          • Alex Dương

            I didn’t intentionally misinterpret anything. You yourself admit that your “only valid report” failed to conclude that the Chinese committed genocide on the basis of race, nationality, or ethnicity. In fact, let’s just put up the whole quote:

            The COMMITTEE found that acts of genocide had been committed in Tibet in an attempt to destroy the Tibetans as a religious group, and that such
            acts are acts of genocide independently of any conventional obligation.

            The COMMITTEE did not find that there was sufficient proof of the destruction of Tibetans as a race, nation or ethnic group as such by methods that can be regarded as genocide in international law.

            I copied that from Tibet Justice, so please spare me your usual bullshit about how I am toeing the CCP line on this issue.

            The wording is really quite interesting when you think about it. Your “only valid report” didn’t even say that the Chinese committed genocide. Rather, they said that they had committed “acts of genocide…in an attempt to destroy the Tibetans as a religious group.”

            That’s all your “only valid report” can say. So your attempt to draw a parallel between Nanjing and Tibet simply doesn’t work. And even if you want to claim that 1.2 million died “as a result of” Chinese actions, you STILL have no evidence for it.

          • Rick in China

            Your argument holds no water. You say:

            In an article about the Nanjing Massacre, which involved physical genocide, you are talking about Chinese suppression of religion.

            Then you say that since the grouping claimed in the only valid report on the subject that has been raised is acts of genocide to destroy the group as a religious group – rather than race/nation/ethnic group, IT’S ALL GOOD. Yep, you got it, Alex. I like how your argument is saying essentially ‘only committed acts of genocide’ (taken under the pretext you’re giving me the fact you’ve got no evidence to support the contrary to this report’s findings) is somehow better than atrocities during Japan’s aggressive invasion.

            Both situations were terrible, disgusting, and wrong in every way, but I don’t see either as being so far from apples-to-apples as you’d have one believe. I find it so incredibly amusing how fervently you defend the Chinese invasion/destruction of Tibet and atrocities committed to the Tibetan people.

            So your attempt to draw a parallel between Nanjing and Tibet simply doesn’t work

            Rape, murder, arbitrary detention – in just 1 of the many breached articles of discovery during the investigation. I suppose that doesn’t constitute “physical” enough for you.

          • Alex Dương

            Then you say that since the grouping claimed in the only valid report on the subject that has been raised is acts of genocide to destroy the group as a religious group – rather than race/nation/ethnic group, IT’S ALL GOOD.

            No. I did not say “it’s all good.” Don’t talk to me about intellectual honesty if you’re seriously going to pull shit like this. What I said is that by the conclusions of your “only valid report,” your attempt to draw a parallel between Nanjing and Tibet was poorly conceived. Very poorly conceived.

            I like how your argument is saying essentially ‘only committed acts of genocide’ (taken under the pretext you’re giving me the fact you’ve got no evidence to support the contrary to this report’s findings) is somehow better than atrocities during Japan’s aggressive invasion.

            You do realize that your own “only valid report” failed to conclude that “there was sufficient proof of the destruction of Tibetans as a race, nation or ethnic group as such by methods that can be regarded as genocide in international law,” right? So why do I have to contradict your “only valid report”? It doesn’t even support what you’re trying to argue, and you don’t realize this.

            I find it so incredibly amusing how fervently you defend the Chinese invasion/destruction of Tibet and atrocities committed to the Tibetan people.

            No, Rick, what I argue against is bullshit masquerading as fact. Your own “only valid report” does not conclude that the Chinese committed genocide in Tibet. It only concludes that “acts of genocide had been committed in Tibet in an attempt to destroy the Tibetans as a religious group.” You know damn well that that’s all it said, so the best you can do is appeal to emotion and claim that I am downplaying the severity of suppressing freedom of religion.

            I always point this out to you every time we discuss this, and you always ignore it, no doubt rolling your eyes and thinking how stupid of a point it is. But I’ll do it again because it’s true: you aren’t renouncing your Canadian citizenship any time soon just because European colonists mistreated the First Nations peoples; so why do you expect the Chinese to pack their bags and leave Tibet when you won’t do the same for your country?

            If you want to argue that Tibet should have the right to self-determination, that isn’t hypocritical because hey, Canada has a process for Quebecois self-determination. Perfectly valid and perfectly consistent. But you want to play loose with history and the facts going back in time, and you won’t win that fight, Rick.

          • Rick in China

            I’ll try this one more time, and the last time, for fuck sake man, let me quote you something that should clarify how stupid you’re being right now:

            GENOCIDE

            According to the Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, which was adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations in December, 1948, human groups against which genocide is recognized as a crime in international law are national, racial, ethnic and religious.

            Read the last part. RELIGIOUS. The report says, very clearly, that genocide was being committed on the basis of religious groups, not national racial or ethnic groups. That is, to say, there are 4 potential groupings which may constitute genocide under international law, and the ICJ report indicates that this genocide occurred under the 4th, religious association.

            It only concludes that “acts of genocide had been committed

            Every time you say only here, I get more and more disgusted with all of the shit you’re spewing in this thread. Your implication that it’s only genocide based on religious association, not ethnic nationality or racial association, is astounding.

            you aren’t renouncing your Canadian citizenship any time soon just because European colonists mistreated the First Nations peoples; so why do you expect the Chinese to pack their bags and leave Tibet when you won’t do the same for your country?

            Oh, talk about apples-to-apples. First, in this thread, I did not mention anything about China ‘leaving Tibet’, although that would be an entirely valid point, thanks for bringing it up. I did, however, indicate that the atrocities that happened should be acknowledged not swept under the rug, much like China officials continually complain about some far right Japanese politicians doing. The rest of this tangent you’re going on has nothing to do with the thread, and it’s a ridiculous path, as you well know, to tread down.

          • Xia

            China never attempted to eradicate Tibetan Buddhism. Just the elimination of a political adversary who was the figurehead of a rebellion. Tibetan Buddhism is still widely practiced today, as it is not the actual target.

          • Rick in China

            Are you aware of the “cultural revolution”? Apparently not. Mao indeed wanted to destroy the religion, and anything else that was part of the superstructure that went against maoist principals. Today’s China is not the same as the China of yesteryear, and saying ‘they still practice Buddhism’ doesn’t prove anything whatsoever about either 1) the intent of the PRC 60 years ago, or 2) the actions taken to implement that intent.

          • Alex Dương

            RELIGIOUS.

            Yeah, I read that. So by your own admission, you’re attempting to argue that the CCP’s suppression of religious freedom in Tibet – “religious genocide” – is comparable to what the IJA did in Nanjing. You would of course have a point if all the IJA did or tried to do was stamp out Chinese religion in Nanjing and replace it with Shinto. And of course, that was not the extent of the IJA’s actions in Nanjing.

            Doesn’t mean I condone suppression of freedom of religion. But that isn’t the same as indiscriminately killing people. Not even close.

            First, in this thread, I did not mention anything about China ‘leaving Tibet’, although that would be an entirely valid point, thanks for bringing it up.

            Why is it valid? You expect them to do something you would not do yourself. That’s hypocrisy. Now, if instead you were to expect them to do something that you would do yourself – such as recognize the right of self-determination – that is fine. That is not hypocritical.

            I did, however, indicate that the atrocities that happened should be acknowledged not swept under the rug, much like China officials continually complain about some far right Japanese politicians doing.

            What atrocities? The 1.2 million dead “as a result of” the CCP? You have no evidence for that. Suppression of freedom of religion? That’s obvious given that the CCP was serious about Communism back then, and its version of Communism was anti-religion.

            Suppression of freedom of religion is a bad thing. But it is not comparable to indiscriminate killing. You disagree, since you said,

            I like how your argument is saying essentially ‘only committed acts of genocide’ (taken under the pretext you’re giving me the fact you’ve got no evidence to support the contrary to this report’s findings) is somehow better than atrocities during Japan’s aggressive invasion.

            but I doubt you would feel that all crimes deserve equal punishments.

            Once again, if your argument is from a view of self-determination, that’s totally fine. No hypocrisy whatsoever. But you prefer trying to argue history, and history is not on your side here. The best you can say is that the CCP suppressed the freedom to practice Tibetan Buddhism. That’s bad, but it’s not quite as passion-inducing as “atrocities and genocide!!!” Unsurprisingly, you opt for the latter in your claims.

          • Rick in China

            I can’t tell if you’re still intentionally reading this wrong.

            Let me make the statement more clear.

            The report says very clearly that they murdered, tortured, raped, pillaged, destroyed, and committed other heinous crimes against people constituting genocide for the purpose of stamping out Buddhism in Tibet.

            Understand? They didn’t just “oppress the religion”, or “try to stamp out the religion”, they physically murdered and killed many people who held belief or practice in the religion. The effect is people were murdered raped etc, not the religion itself being killed but the PEOPLE.

            If you can’t get it this time, I give up trying.

          • Alex Dương

            No, Rick, I’m reading what they actually said and not what you wished they had said. This is what they actually said:

            The evidence established four principal facts in relation to genocide:

            (a) that the Chinese will not permit adherence to and practice of Buddhism in Tibet;

            (b) that they have systematically set out to eradicate this religious belief in Tibet;

            (c) that in pursuit of this design they have killed religious figures because their religious belief and practice was an encouragement and example to others; and

            (d) that they have forcibly transferred large numbers of Tibetan children to a Chinese materialist environment in order to prevent them from having a religious upbringing.

            So when you claim that the CCP committed “atrocities” and “genocide” in Tibet, this is what you’re talking about. Now, I don’t condone any of these actions, but it is such a poor argument to compare this to the Nanjing Massacre. So like I said, I didn’t have to contradict your “only valid report” because it contradicts your own arguments.

          • Rick in China

            *Sigh* No, Alex, you’re taking small snippets and concluding it is the entirety.

            The report clearly states that:

            ARTICLE 3

            The right to life, liberty and security of person was violated by acts of murder, rape and arbitrary imprisonment.

            ARTICLE 5

            Torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment were inflicted on the Tibetans on a large scale.

            Why oh why do I need to paste the same shit multiple times. Are you implying that murder, rape, imprisonment, torture and cruel/inhuman/degrading treatment was committed on the religion, not people? on a LARGE scale? Wtf are you on about?

          • Alex Dương

            OK, so “four principal facts” are now “small snippets.”

          • Alex Dương

            Are you implying that murder, rape, imprisonment, torture and
            cruel/inhuman/degrading treatment was committed on the religion, not
            people? on a LARGE scale? Wtf are you on about?

            I’m not implying anything. I’m stating that the “four principal facts” documented by your “only valid report” make it clear that the “genocide” you refer to was suppression of the freedom to practice Tibetan Buddhism.

            1. “the Chinese will not permit adherence to and practice of Buddhism in Tibet”

            The Chinese intended to suppress freedom of religion.

            2. “they have systematically set out to eradicate this religious belief in Tibet”

            The Chinese actively worked to suppress freedom of religion, and notice how they said “eradicate this religious belief” and not “eradicate the people”?

            3. “in pursuit of this design they have killed religious figures because their religious belief and practice was an encouragement and example to others”

            The Chinese “killed religious figures” because they were religious role models, not because they were Tibetan.

            4. “they have forcibly transferred large numbers of Tibetan children to a
            Chinese materialist environment in order to prevent them from having a
            religious upbringing.”

            You may have wished they had said that the Chinese “killed large numbers of Tibetan children,” but your own “only valid report” stated that there was forced transfer from a religious to a secular environment with the purpose of…suppressing religion.

    • jxr363

      I get your concern, and I understand how people would want to criticize the China government’s harsh ruling of the Tibet region. However, to be fair, Imperial Japan went far and beyond “conquest” and partook in an orgy of rape and violent savagry unlike almost anything else in the 20th century. Hundreds of thousands of women being raped, bayonated, and decapitated and not neccesarily in that order. Children were slaughtered like rat vermin. Even cannibalism occured at some point. While it’s also wrong for China to dwell in the past (propaganda tv shows, excess rhetoric etc,) Japan’s invasion of China and other neighboring nations leading to WWII was a disgusting event in history and I don’t blame China for commemorating it.

      • Rick in China

        orgy of rape and violent savagry unlike almost anything else in the 20th century

        I suppose you don’t pay much attention to the world around you. Atrocities have happened all over the world last century, excluding the main two world wars, and rather than look at raw numbers — if we break it down to percentages — there are so, so many unfortunate communities of people who reaped the results of these type of terrible crimes. Tutsis and hutus, far more recently, may have something to say about your “unlike almost anything”…. or the people of Haiti. *sighs*. Or… (insert one of far too many places)

        • jxr363

          I am well aware of them and their magnitude. (Turks, Armenian genocide, Hutus vs Tutsis, Soviet purges, China under Mao, etc) However, would you say that up to this day, there are prominent politicans of said countries that say that the systematic rape and butchering of women were a “neccesity” for the (blood) lust of occupying soldiers ? This issue exists in Japan and there are members of that country’s government that are too proud to aknowledge that their ancestors were in the wrong. All I’m saying is that I don’t blame the chinese for commemorating the event. It’s hard to “forgive and forget” when many politicians in the country that raped and pillaged your homeland isnt sorry. See for yourself. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-22519384

          • Rick in China

            You’re not even talking about the same thing, now. Yes, there are some politicians (“Far Right”, as they admit in this report) which still deny the truth of the past. That doesn’t mean shit – though, does it? Your statement was that this is “rape and violent savagry unlike almost anything else in the 20th century” – of which it is not. To make that more accurate, you may want to say “on a scale of which” — yes, it is perhaps one of the largest of these types of incidents in terms of total number of people who have suffered as a result, but as for the utter savagery of incidents, shit has happened all over and always has.

          • jxr363

            Was there any other country who’s threat was so large that it warranted a multi year island hopping campaign campaign, relentless firebombing of the capital, and TWO atom bombs to defeat it ? I don’t think so. Just to be clear, look at the contextand the wording of “conquest”. My emphasis was on scale, not on just “mere savagry”. Can we just look past semantics and aknowldge that the sheer scale of the horrors contribute to it’s savagry ?

          • Rick in China

            You’re like a pinball. First, you say:

            violent savagry unlike almost anything else in the 20th century</blockquote

            So I counter by saying that it isn't savagery unlike almost anything in the 20th century, utterly disgusting shit has been happening across the globe for ages, and the last century is no different, you agree for the most part, so you say:

            However, would you say that up to this day, there are prominent politicans of said countries that say that the systematic rape and butchering of women were a “neccesity”

            I agree to the extent that there are some (not many) far right politicians that fall into that bracket, mention that’s not even related to your original statement about the savagery, and that to improve your statement you should add mention of the scale of the atrocities. You reply on an entirely new tangent with:

            Was there any other country who’s threat was so large that it warranted a multi year island hopping campaign campaign, relentless firebombing of the capital, and TWO atom bombs to defeat it ?

            The US>Japan part of the war had little to nothing to do with their attacks/actions in China. I don’t know how you even draw that kind of relationship. US had what, the flying tigers – or whomever – helping out on the side…but their involvement in WW2 was kicked off by Pearl Harbour. That’s all. Is that your 3rd and final tangent?

            We aren’t so far off on our points, just, the way you’ve lodged your argument seems to have almost nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that, yes, murders and rapes happened in Tibet, and yes, they are STILL oppressed – and yes, China continues to promote anti-Japan sentiment and ‘remember the past’, the latter of which is fair, yet refuses to acknowledge their own atrocities committed against others — do you think that sort of hypocrisy is to be defended? Are you seriously fucking defending that?

          • jxr363

            Obviously not. I could talk to you about any detail regarding the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, China’s conflicts of the Uguyr people or the Tibetan people with you for hours. All I pointed out is that Japan’s action had more “savagry” due to the scale of their conquest, which in fact I did mention in my first paragraph. I then took steps to highlight the sense of that scale by telling you what it took to have the Japanese forces give up their dream of becoming an imperial power. Also, dont curse, it makes you look like a child.

          • Rick in China

            You didn’t mention “scale” until I told you to mention it to improve the accuracy of your statement. You also have no rights to make claims of what is more or less “savage”, due to the lack of knowledge around the details of any of these other incidents — why is there a lack of knowledge? Could it be because it’s *completely suppressed* in an effort to *sweep it under the rug*, exactly what China (at a state-wide level. And you, apparently) continually complains the several Japanese far-right politicians are doing, and uses as a basis for launching these sort of anti-Japanese campaigns?

            Don’t tell me what to write or how, quite frankly, it makes you look like you’re trying to dissuade the argument from anything of substance rather than make a valid point – which seems to be in line with your entire thread of pinballing around.

          • jxr363

            I mentioned conquest. It’s reasonable to believe that A huge army commiting decapitations and rape is “more savage” than when it is only one person. Yes ? Many would agree. Alright, no need to look for conflict. You want to discredit a perfectly reasonable point because YOU wanted to be exessively narrow in your interpretation. Let me cite myslef: “While it’s also wrong for China to dwell in the past (propaganda tv shows, excess rhetoric etc,)” There we agree on this, yes ? From one person who lived in China to another, All I’m saying is let the Chinese mourn. Jeez.

          • Rick in China

            While it’s also wrong for China to dwell in the past (propaganda tv shows, excess rhetoric etc,)” There we agree on this, yes ? From one person who lived in China to another, All I’m saying is let the Chinese mourn.

            I’ve nothing against mourning, and I agree with your statement above. So, I go back to the original statement in my thread here, when can the Tibetan people mourn freely? When can they ring their bell of alarm? They’re still occupied, they’re still oppressed, they’re not able to speak freely, move freely, or behave in any way free – in fact, neither can you if you go there..if you can go there.. “As one person who lived in China” you should recognize this.

            I’m not saying it’s wrong to have a memorial day. I’m not saying nanjing shouldn’t be remembered and everyone affected shouldn’t be mourned – of COURSE they should. I’m not saying the shit Japan did while invading China wasn’t absolutely utterly disgusting and terrible, of COURSE it was. I’m saying that China needs to look both directions – as in, how can they make reparations for their own crimes, rather than only expecting others to for their benefit.

          • jxr363

            If you want to discuss China’s current CCP administration and the possibility of establishing a stable democracy in the Chinese mainland, we could. I just think that such a deep and complex topic merits its own separate conversation. Cheers.

          • Mateusz82

            Why should they be sorry? They didn’t do anything. The only people who are actually responsible are either dead, or elderly. Few remain.

            I do blame the Chinese for holding responsible people who committed no crime.

          • jxr363

            I would guess that itwould be like you to see these WWII soldier “shrines that quite a few in Japan frequent, politicans included. “In 1975 a museum was built to commemorate the lives of the pilots and document their “patriotic efforts for peace” Was the Nanjing massacre , bayoneting babies, decapitation contests, raping”comfrot women”, and looting peace ? Was attacking pearl harbor a promotion of “peace” ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiran_Peace_Museum_for_Kamikaze_Pilots

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Yasukuni_Shrine

          • Mateusz82

            I have relative/ancestors who were murdered in World War II by the Nazis in Auschwitz. That doesn’t mean I hold every German person alive today personally responsible (and in fact, I have a friend and colleague who is German). I can quite easily separate the individual Germans who committed the atrocity from the ones who had nothing to do with it.

          • Rick in China

            That’s exactly it. More-so, as my grandfather taught me when I was ~5, “they were doing their jobs, just as I was doing mine. I can’t hate the guy who shot me – because it was his orders, for his family, for his country..even if it did turn out to be very misguided.” (paraphrased of course, can’t remember the exact words, but that’s the impression it left) There were some people heavily responsible for terrible things. Those people should be detested. The majority were just scared people doing things they surely never imagined they’d do – the terror of war fucks people up beyond all reason, and it’s not fair for everyone to sit around decades later indicting people they don’t know anything about. Individuals found guilty of crimes need to be punished. Not everyone who can be somehow grouped in with them through completely irrelevant means, like “same nationality”, or “same country of birth”, or whatever is going on here.

          • Xia

            With that rationalization you could get away with any military atrocity. At the end of WWIII it will again be “they were doing their jobs, just as I was doing mine. I can’t hate the guy who shot me – because it was his orders, for his family, for his country..even if it did turn out to be very misguided.”

          • Probotector

            Yeah, but we’ve all been through this. The mentality in China is to lump people together in groups based on nationality and/or race, both with bad intentions, as well as sometimes with good intentions. Obviously in this case, their intentions are bad, and usually they are, because this mentality is usually a compensating measure for Chinese nationalists’ insecurity, and it doesn’t seem like it’s going to disappear an time soon.

          • Mateusz82

            The irony is that the Chinese who are doing this are just perpetuating the mentality that allowed the atrocity to happen in the first place: The view that everyone of a certain nationality and/or race are all subhuman, and to be viewed as “the other”.

          • Kai

            Some Chinese are guilty of that and some aren’t, just like people elsewhere in the world.

          • Xia

            http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068
            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/39166.stm

            The present tensions is in part a consequence of Japan’s policy of collective amnesia.

          • Mateusz82

            Then the individuals who are practicing collective amnesia are guilty only of that, of denial. Holocaust deniers are right douchebags, but I wouldn’t ask them to apologize for the actual Holocaust itself.

          • Xia

            You are dealing with Japanese politicians who have familial ties with the war-time regime and see themselves in their legacy

            “Abe believes the policy changes validate his deeply held convictions about national sovereignty. In his view, Japan has long been hobbled by the constraints imposed under the U.S. constitution. His views are historical, personal, and strategic. Abe’s grandfather, Nobusuke Kishi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi ), played a major role in Japanese decision making throughout WWII and served as prime minister during the late 1950s and again in 1960. Kishi, who was jailed but never indicted by the United States after Japan’s surrender, subsequently became a severe critic of “victor’s justice.” He openly objected to the constraints imposed under Article IX and sought without success to revise the constitution.”

            http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2014/08/17-japan-defense-policy-revision-pollack

          • Mateusz82

            Are all Japanese politicians the same (including Marutei Tsurunen), with every last one of them guilty of war crimes rationalization? Even moreso, should all Japanese be blamed because of these politicians?

            There are still neo-Nazis, and people who deny the Holocaust. These people should be shamed and confronted (though, that’s not to say they are the same as the perpetrators of the crime itself), but not every single living German today.

          • Xia

            You’re right, as long as no neo-Nazi or someone who denies the Holocaust becomes the German chancellor and pays respect to Hitler’s crew, all is well.

          • Mateusz82

            Not exactly. There’s a huge gap in between someone being a genocidal dictator (with the power to enact genocide), and a right mentsh. Neo-Nazis are douchebags, but they aren’t murderers (well, unless they actually do commit murder… they aren’t murderers just by having racist views).

          • Xia

            So you think it’s alright, if a Neo-nazi is elected chancellor in Germany to right the German “masochistic” view of itself?

          • Mateusz82

            Of course not… who would think that’s alright?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            If these people should be shamed and confronted ONLY, why is that the denial of the Holocaust is illegal in Germany and most European countries? Why did the law makers in Europe think someone who deny the Holocaust should be prosecuted?

          • Mateusz82

            I’m not a European lawmaker, so I can’t speak for them.

            That’s not how democracy works. The government didn’t ask every single Japanese person if they want to prohibit “the denial of war atrocities” or engage in “worshiping of war criminals”, and 100% of the people said (the Japanese equivalent of) “Yeah, totally! I sure love me some war crime.”

            How many Japanese people do you know? I do know several, and none of them support genocidal ideology. Incidentally, you, however, are espousing nationalism and nationalist-based hatred. Good job carrying on the torch that was dropped by Imperial Japan when it capitulated.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            You can’t answer because you have no common sense and have no idea how the victims will feel about the denial of the Holocaust. European lawmakers have common sense so they banned it. Nationalism is not illegal but denying the holocaust you can be put in jail. Shame on you for thinking denying the holocaust is nothing serious.

            A democratic government reflects the choice of the majority of the population, therefore Japan as a whole, is responsible for its laws and government policies.

          • Mateusz82

            Why did you even ask the question, if you weren’t going to listen to the answer? You’re flat out wrong, but have no interest in improving your understanding.

            As someone who has relatives murdered in the Holocaust, I can tell you that you have a profound ignorance regarding what you are talking about. You are hardly in a position to dole out shame.

            You lack the basic understanding of politics. Have you spoken to any Japanese people (face to face, I mean)? You are simply making baseless accusations due to your own hatred and bigotry.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            As someone who has relatives murdered in the Holocaust and you don’t even know the denial of holocaust is illegal, that basically says everything about your knowledge in politics.

            If you get the most basic fact wrong, you have no ground to say someone lack the understanding of anything.

            And I don’t hate Japan or Japanese people, I was saying Chinese people have the reason to hate Japan, just like Vietnamese have the reason to hate China.

        • 42

          We are talking about supposedly “civilized” countries here back in the days of imperial germany and imperial japan, not some african tribal rivalry or conflicts of religious origin.

          Nanking massacre and the holocaust was savagery committed by considerably modern nations at that time and period, with highly disciplined and organized military, but which resorted to extermination of human species without remorse and raping of women in a systematically and almost business like fashion (comfort women). No mister, to emphasize again, this was savagery unlike anything else in the 20th century!

          • Rick in China

            So savagery is relative, when it’s committed by a “modern” nation, it’s more savage than when it’s committed by neighbour on neighbour, by villager upon villager? I see. All I have to say to that is: you’re very uninformed on the affairs of the world.

          • 42

            I am not saying it is more savagery when committed by a modern nation, I am saying it is unlike anything else in the 20th century, you can’t deny that! You also cannot compare rape on such grand scale, to individual rape by perpetrators in your local neighbourhood. Not every massive rape and killings can be compared with each other either. The holocaust is different from the Nanking massacre and so on. If you are arguing about petty punctuations and forms like this on a topic like this, then you are a very very sad man, human being even…..

          • http://everythingbutavegan.blogspot.co.uk/ Everyone Loves Pandas

            Geez you’re so biased. It’s like conversing with a wall.

    • Intranet

      The Chinese are oppressive, but they haven’t gone around killing the Tibetan population. The native Tibetan population has tripled since the 50s. The Japanese invasion involved genocide of executing hundreds of thousands of civilians. There’s a huge difference.

      • jxr363

        Agreed. Not to mention the use of citizens as bayonet practice and disposable sex toys. Imperial Japan commited atrocities that were as brutal as those commited by Spanish Conquistadors during theit conquest campaigns in South America. It’s important to not dwell in the past but it’s also important to aknowledge how brutal these conquest campaigns were, so that they never happen again.

        • Ale Jandro

          Right-Winged Spanish: no, we did not, they died by themselves. Hail October 12th!
          Latinamerican: but you oppressed us for more than 300 years!
          Ouch, it seems that Chinese like to copy the hysterical whining of Latinamericans.

          PD: I don’t deny both massacres but it’s something from the far past…

      • Rick in China

        What? Tripled?

        According to WHOM? Even China official figures don’t indicate any “tripling” – but rather, more like a less-than but close-to double increase. Tibetan groups claim a decrease. There are reasons why, including lots of numbers fudging and lots of ‘guesswork’ as opposed to official counts involved, but where do you get off making some ridiculous statement like “tripled” — as well as, is there a mutual exclusion between population increase and murders/rapes? Are you implying that because, according to PRC figures, there has been an increase in their population, that there wasn’t rapes & murder during the Japanese invasion? Are you denying that Japan invaded Tibet mid-century? Are you suggesting that the ICJ’s report is false, and genocidal acts against Tibetan people by China did indeed, not really happen? Where are you getting your obviously made-up information from?

        • Xia

          The ICJ report was made at the peak of the Cold War. Its only source is the allegations made by Dalai Lama with the undertone of “Communists are evil”. See for yourself how reliable its arguments are: http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/govngo/govngo1.html

        • Intranet

          1. Did you even read the ICJ report? The ICJ report conducted in the 1960s (which admitted it was based only on prima facie evidence made during the height of the Cold War) describes CULTURAL genocide. It was not POPULATION GENOCIDE – aka “real genocide.”
          During the 60s and Cultural Revolution, the Chinese did destroy a lot of Buddhist monasteries – but they did that EVERYWHERE in the country, not just in Tibet. Yes, the Chinese did kill Tibetans during the CIA-backed ARMED UPRISING of 1959, but that was collateral damage from what was basically a civil war. They were not going around slaughtering random civilians like the Japanese did in Nanking. There’s an important distinction there.

          To call Tibet a genocide is ridiculous and really demeans the meaning of that word.

          2. Japan didn’t invade Tibet mid century. What are you talking about? The PRC invaded it to reclaim sovereignty after Tibet declared independence during the Chinese Civil War after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.

          3. The population of Tibet was around 2-3 million according to PRC census. The Tibet government itself claimed its population didn’t exceed 3 million in its appeal to the UN. The Tibet-in-Exile government later made up fictitious population numbers by increasing it to 6 million to fabricate and drum up the number of “deaths” to accuse the Chinese of genocide. The current population of ethnic Tibetans is around 6.5 million according to Census. Which means the ethnic Tibetan population has increased by 2x-3x according to CREDIBLE sources from national census…not your bogus Tibet-in-Exile groups who use fabrications to demonize the CCP at every turn.

          Read here: “A History of Modern Tibet: The calm before the storm, 1951-1955″ By Melvyn C. Goldstein page. 90

          On page 90, the Tibetan government itself states its population as less than 3 million in the 1950s during a UN petition.

          • Rick in China

            1. Yes. I don’t get what you’re even trying to say here. They invaded; murdered; raped; tortured; and oppressed.. they committed genocide with the intention of exterminating Buddhism, saying it’s emancipation — but in fact, was just slavery with a new lord. You call the murders and torture “collateral damage” and “civil war” – I disagree entirely with your terminology….and I’m sure the Tibetan people on the losing end of that stick would, too.

            2. I didn’t mean to say Japan, there, I meant China – obviously. China absolutely invaded Tibet. You call it reclamation, I call it invasion and annexation. Where you draw the line between reclamation and annexation and I do, I suppose, will always side with whatever side of an argument we’re on, because that can go for _ages_. Taiwan should reclaim the mainland from the PRC rebels, for example.

            3. The PRC didn’t have a proper census, they guessed. It’s all bullshit numbers. All of it. Get it? You just choose to believe whatever set fits your narrative, ie. “well it has perhaps in the best case scenario almost tripled since the 50s), so, continue to do so; there’s not much in terms of hard proof at that point because there simply weren’t social mechanics/infrastructure in place to prove what claims are more or less accurate. There still isn’t. Even if we go with that, you haven’t clarified what an increased population means about the oppression and any murder/torture/etc? What’s the relationship? Since the population has increased, there obviously isn’t murder/torture/etc? You were trying to use the correlation as some sort of point but it is completely lost on me. Are you saying the Tibetan population is growing *because* of China’s invasion/reclamation/whatever you choose to call it, and have some sort of evidence to suggest it wouldn’t have grown equally/better without any invasion?

          • Intranet

            1. Now you’re just making things up. The ICJ never says there was systematic murder, rape, torture, etc. The ICJ listed a category of possible events that included some of these elements in the category that also classified other things (such as arbitrary imprisonment). But there was ZERO evidence there was systematic murder, rape, etc. If this was “systematic extermination” as you claim, then there wouldn’t be a Tibet dissent problem today. The region would be depopulated and relocated to “reservations” a la Native Americas. The fact that there are millions of Tibetans today to complain about Chinese rule is pretty much evidence by itself that there was no policy of genocide against Tibetans. There are ~4-6 millions Tibetans and growing – compared to only 2 million Native Americans.

            2. The CCP had a policy throughout the entire country to discourage people from following Buddhism…and this was really only intensely implemented during the chaos of the Cultural Revolution. Tibetans were not treated much differently than other Buddhists groups in the rest of China. Your notion that they were trying to exterminate Buddhism as a whole is silly – they left many Tibetan, Shaolin, Zen, etc Buddhist temples untouched. What they DID destroy were the temples in areas they suspected of rebellion. Most of the CCP actions were the result of suppressing dissent and rebellion, not exterminating religion.

            3. The difference between reclamation and invasion is when no country in the world has accepted Tibet as independent nation (except Britain later because it wanted to take territories themselves as a supplement to British India). No country in the world recognized Tibet as independent. China was split into many different nations during the first Chinese Civil War. The League of Nations didn’t recognize any of them as independent…and they didn’t recognize Tibet either. Of course Taiwan should reclaim the mainland, the ROC has as good of a claim as the PRC.

            3. So you believe the bullsh1t figures from the Tibet in exile sources, which has even less credibility than the CCP? They don’t even have a census to go on.

            The population has increased is evidence that there was NO SYSTEMATIC genocide/murder/etc. Yes, there were isolated incident of murder and execution of suspected rebels/political dissidents – but if the CCP really wanted to wipe out the Tibetans, THERE WOULD BE NO TIBETANS TODAY. The CCP had complete and absolute control of the region for 6 decades now. The Tibetans would be more non-existent than Native Americans if the CCP truly wanted to wipe them out… In reality, there are 2x-3x MORE Tibetans in China than Native Americans in the US.

    • 42

      Trying to compare the atrocities what the imperial japanese did, to what CCP is doing to Tibetans really show how tremendously biased you are, and your ignorance…..

    • bujiebuke

      No nation should have a memorial day if they themselves have committed atrocities.

      – no one

      • Ken Morgan

        Well that means no memorial days for anyone then. As all nations have committed atrocities (except for the Allied nations because when we fire bomb civilians like WWII it’s for FREEDOM)

        • bujiebuke

          that’s precisely my point…

        • Probotector

          Oh please, don’t bring up Dresden really.

          • Ken Morgan

            Why not? because of the double standard when the Allies do it then it is completely acceptable… but when somebody else does it then it is morally reprehensible?

            Kind of like the CIA torture program. The US government was all sanctimonious about other torture around the world. Yet when the CIA does it its A-OK!.

          • mr.wiener

            At least Curtis LeMay was honest about it afterwards.

          • Alex Dương

            So true. What Cheney (and others) have been saying is disgraceful. I’m glad to see that McCain is carrying on an honorable tradition.

          • mr.wiener

            You are well read, you got my reference.
            Respect.

          • Alex Dương

            Haha, thanks. I actually first heard about it from watching “The Fog of War.” With Christmas coming up, I should go check out a book from the library.

      • Rick in China

        There’s a difference between a memorial day and fuelling hatred for another nation or race. I don’t recall the last memorial day I experienced in Canada being full of people calling for the heads of the people of “little Germany”. Laughable.

        • bujiebuke

          Yeah, your diversion game hasn’t worked here for awhile.

          You said, ” wonder when Tibetans will be able to “ring the alarm””

          Your suggesting that the Chinese don’t deserve a remembrance for their victims in a war because their government committed atrocities elsewhere. It’s exactly like some fucktard in Canada saying they shouldn’t have Poppy day because of all the dirty shit they did to the First Nations people.

          Now your saying that the CCP is using a memorial day to fan hatred for their own means, which is true. But it has no relevance to your original post. Your just saving face here… how very mainlander of you ;)

          Also, your continuous comparison of China and Canada in nearly every story is laughably moronic.

          • Rick in China

            You’re not interpreting my suggestion appropriately whatsoever, maybe it’s because you’re an idiot – or maybe it wasn’t clear, so let me clarify:

            China demands certain things of Japan, things to which it has never and will likely never provide to those who have similar gripes against them themselves – such as the Tibetans with their invasion, atrocities, and subsequent oppression. When will they, just as China is now, be allowed to cry out for remembrance from their own homes? Only those in exile can speak freely.

            Clear yet?

            the Chinese don’t deserve a remembrance for their victims in a war

            Absolutely not. Of course they deserve to have a remembrance. These types of events should be remembered. However, while remembering, perhaps it is important to ALSO reflect on the fact that others deserve remembrance as well, and they are currently being oppressed from holding said remembrances….so, while this is all great and fine only to the extent it represents a memorial – why are you against pointing out that while we are remembering Nanjing, we must also pay special attention to the fact there is massive oppression occurring at this very moment and moments before and likely after to which other tragic events in the same area also need remembrance rather than denial?

            Bringing Canadian memorial day into it was simply because that’s the only other memorial day I have experience with. I don’t get what your point in that regard is whatsoever. There was no comparison between the countries, but rather, the memorial days’ intent, practice, and outcome.

          • bujiebuke

            Clear, except no reasonable person with an IQ above 90 would interpret your OP as the same as your first paragraph – get a hold of yourself.

            ” why are you against pointing out that while we are remembering Nanjing, we must also pay special attention to the fact there is massive oppression occurring at this very moment and moments before and likely after to which other tragic events in the same area also need remembrance rather than denial?”

            – where did I write or imply that here or in any other story?? You’ve stooped to a new low if you think for a second that I’m going to defend that line of bullshit. I don’t understand how you expect me or anyone else to believe that’s what you meant to write in your initial half sentence sarcastic garbage.

            “Bringing Canadian memorial day into it was simply because that’s the only other memorial day I have experience with.”

            -Oh please, you frequently make comparisons like, “Oh in Canada we don’t do this or that” or “we have this so none of this happens”. Two countries with nearly opposite geopolitical climates, it’s a banal observation, of COURSE they’re different!

    • Xia

      If you argue that the atrocities committed by the Japanese government were all in the past and you should just get over it today, then you cannot blame the Chinese government today for the atrocities committed by it in the past by the same principle. You either hold both accountable for what they did or neither, or you’d set up a double standard.

      • Rick in China

        That’s the point. Both should be accountable. Japan, at a state and individual level, admits and acknowledges their history — there are a few right wing nuts who stick to their guns..but it is not a majority – and not a supported position by any means. China, however, both at a state and individual level, refuses to acknowledge history – even far more recent ‘atrocities’. I am of the position that, much like you said, both need to be accountable, hence the initial post in the first place.

    • grand

      i suppose when the descendants of european colonizers go back to europe and give the land back to the natives in australia, new zealand, canada and US, you might see that happen.

  • Freddi BuBu

    Just ghastly these images of civilians being lined up for “bayonet practice”……. #japsavages

  • Chinese Government Says

    NEVER FORGET THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED ON THE CHINESE PEOPLE BY FOREIGNERS!

    Never mention the atrocities committed on the Chinese people by us.

    • Xia

      If you keep on nagging that Chinese people is oppressed by their government, you will not make any friend in China. Chinese pride is a weird kind of thing. High level of tolerance for abuses by its own people, especially those in a position of authority, but whenever a foreigner acts high and mighty on something China related, it quickly becomes unbearable.

  • Ruaraidh

    Can’t wait for the Tienanmen Square Massacre Memorial Day.

    • 42

      comparing around 2000 casualties during a demonstration which turned into an violent uproar (where among deaths were also CCP military and police) to 300.000 thousands casualties within one month, with deliberate executions and rape by an invading imperial hostile japanese force, is utterly shameful!

      • Ruaraidh

        Cynically using a historical tragedy to cultivate jingoism and distract a domestic population from authoritarianism and misrule is utterly shameful.

        • NeverMind

          They are learning from the Americans where the massacre of Indians is celebrated as a national holiday of Thanksgiving.

          • seansarto

            I cannot speak for the history of the US but it is apparent that after the Native Americans had negotiated the settlement of European colonies on their land through acts of purchase, many tribes did not forsee the extent of what that colonization meant and became very embittered about the colonists presence. In many Native tribes dialogues of the threat of European “impurities” in their belief systems gave rise to tensions between the colonists and the tribes…The segregation between the peoples became more and more codified…Thus the sentiment that is expressed in Thanksgiving became dubious…Much in the same way that China today sometimes can be resentful of the fact that it was US investment and manufacturing which has been a very prominent aspect of the their current status. I have heard opinions here in China expressed that clearly express a racist idealism in regards to that “foreign” influence on “Chinese” people..But hopefully, when all such talk arises, it is marginalized as a “few crazies”…As it stands today, as an American, I am NOT the one to say that sentiment of Thanksgiving, the sentiment of gratitude, is one NOT to be cherished… I believe that it is..It is a sentiment of strength.. A sentiment akin to all the world’s peoples…and should always be encouraged. It is better to hate the sins and not the sinners..Perhaps none of us can own a sin more than we can own a blessing.

          • Alex Dương

            after the Native Americans had negotiated the settlement of European
            colonies on their land through acts of purchase, many tribes did not
            forsee the extent of what that colonization meant and became very
            embittered about the colonists presence. In many Native tribes dialogues
            of the threat of European “impurities” in their belief systems gave
            rise to tensions between the colonists and the tribes.

            That’s an extremely one-sided way of looking at what happened.

          • http://www.myspace.com/_lovedaddy_ JohnnyMorales

            you are too kind by half. It’s an idiot’s way of looking at things. Quite a bit of the “land taking” was outright theft where previous weak treaties were ignored in favor of settlers who had moved onto territory treaties had said belong to the Native Americans.

            The routine was for the military to move in and evict Native Americans from their own treaty lands as soon enough unproved complaints came in from those settlers illegally on Indian lands.

            Only someone who has made an effort to avoid the details of the century where we nearly exterminated Native Americans can say something so breathtakingly idiotic.

            The reason is the details are kept by OUR OWN MILITARY.

            Oklahoma was promised to the Native Americans as a state of their own, but that promise too was broken.

            Eventually we made a Broadway Musical which was then made into a hit movie called “Oklahoma” which few people seem to realize is a “celebration” of the last great humiliation of the Plains Native Americans.

          • Alex Dương

            Thanks for describing the other side. Hopefully @seansarto:disqus will have a chance to read it.

          • seansarto

            I do not need to delve into the many inaccuracies of historical records…Perhaps you need to and you will find many undiscovered truths await you…Many records of Native American atrocities have been buried to protect them…Just as your populist accounting of the tragedy is promoted to do so…And as I have previously stated: My statements are not the entirety of a history I was not a witness to…Obviously your ego cannot grasp the notion that neither are yours.

          • Alex Dương

            I do not need to delve into the many inaccuracies of historical records…

            Then we have nothing further to discuss, as you have proved that you are ignorant and proud of it.

          • seansarto

            There are no “discussions” with a bigoted mind as yours. It is to my advantage to be released from your considerations.

          • Alex Dương

            I asked you a question. You refused to answer it. And not only that, you pulled the laziest, dumbest trick in the book: do my homework for me.

            The Native Americans were not faultless, and they weren’t angels. But your narrative is complete bullshit, and you know it’s bullshit because you won’t answer my question.

          • seansarto

            If you, yourself, can admit to that both parties involved were not faultless..my narrative is no more BS than it is extremism. Nor is it one-sided, obviously.

          • Alex Dương

            I never had a problem with admitting that neither the Native Americans nor the Americans were “innocent.” I had a problem with your false narrative, which I quote as follows:

            after the Native Americans had negotiated the settlement of European colonies on their land through acts of purchase, many tribes did not
            forsee the extent of what that colonization meant and became very embittered about the colonists presence. In many Native tribes dialogues of the threat of European “impurities” in their belief systems gave rise to tensions between the colonists and the tribes.

            You pinned the tensions and conflicts entirely on the Native Americans. Only now do you admit, grudgingly, that the Americans were “also” at fault.

          • seansarto

            I guess you didn’t read the disclaimer. “I cannot speak for the history of the US…”
            Don’t let your egoism undermine your integrity.

          • Alex Dương

            Then you shouldn’t speak at all.

          • seansarto

            Consider yourself, speaking to yourself.

          • Alex Dương

            That made no sense whatsoever. It’s your right to be ignorant. Take care.

          • seansarto

            Ditto..But I know your “intellectual” BS game, bigot…and learn how to read before you step onto the field.

          • http://www.myspace.com/_lovedaddy_ JohnnyMorales

            Translation – you will believe what you want to believe, and anything contrary to what your gut tells you is true you will declare false, and anyone who points out the sheer idiocy of your position is declared automatically wrong.

            Only in your fantasy land are the records of Native American attacks on European settlers are kept secret for their protection.

            I’m well aware that they TRIED TO FIGHT BACK, and in doing so committed atrocities of their own.

            Indian attacks on settlers are well documented, and NOT hidden as you think they are.

            No one thinks the Native Americans were saints.

            The big difference you dismiss with nonsense legalese excuses is that from the very beginning the native Americans were out-gunned and forced to deal with the Western laws and obey Western rules for which they had no recourse but to submit every time we decided to reinterpret something to diminish their treaty lands.

            What is pathetic is you call the records inaccurate, yet that doesn’t prevent you from resting your opinion on those records. I guess you know some magic that divines the truth hidden within.

            So be it. I really don’t care what you think specifically. You don’t care about the truth. You are an apologist for what we did.

            I am not.

            We should face our history head on the good and the bad, and if it is possible rectify as much as we can any remaining consequences of our bad behavior.

            To be clear, I only replied for the benefit of someone who might be mislead into thinking all Americans are so willfully blind to our history as you are as evidenced by your original ridiculous post.

          • seansarto

            According to the other “extremely one-sided way of looking at what happened”?

          • Alex Dương

            How many of the treaties that the U.S. signed with various Native American tribes were never broken by the U.S.?

          • seansarto

            The Native Americans committed as many atrocities on American settlers as did the American settlers upon them…They allied with other foreign nations against the British colonists also in breach of treaties.

          • Alex Dương

            as did the American settlers upon them…also in breach of treaties

            So you have some intellectual honesty, then. Good.

          • http://www.myspace.com/_lovedaddy_ JohnnyMorales

            That is an outright lie.

            Indians fought on both sides, and after the War the UK reserved lands West of the Appalachians for the Indians who fought with them.

            And your understanding of treaty language is pitifully lacking.

            Finally you conflate what they did in regard to the British with what they did with the USA about 75-100 year further on as we “won the West” demonstrates beyond a doubt that you really don’t have any idea what you are talking about.

          • RKS

            Thanksgiving was not a massacre but a celebration of friendship between the first colonists and their native american allies. Try learning some facts first.

          • Xia

            That’s the televised propagandistic version of Thanksgiving. In fact, it was a religious practice brought from Europe, thanking God for blessings such as military victory or the end of a drought. Try learning some facts first.

          • RKS

            Thanks for proving yourself wrong genius.

            Nowhere in the link you sent does it say the massacre of Indians is celebrated as a national holiday of Thanksgiving. Learn to do research before you challenge someone above your intellect. Or maybe just read your own link first. Or maybe just try again on somebody from your own country.

          • NeverMind

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/23/273864/-The-Thanksgiving-Day-Massacre-Or-would-you-like-Turkey-with-your-genocide

            From the article:

            The next day, the Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony declared:

            “A day of Thanksgiving, thanking God that they had eliminated over 700 men, women and children.” It was signed into law that, “This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots.”

          • Paulos

            Again, just to be clear, that quote is from the late 1630’s. The first Thanksgiving service in North America was held in 1578. The Pilgrim Thanksgiving Feast that is most often commemorated in the US took place in 1621 and was essentially a non-religious harvest festival.

            I’m sure there was much dubious celebration after the Pequot War ended in favor of the colonists and their allied tribes, but that has nothing to do with the national holiday known today as Thanksgiving.

            As a national holiday, Thanksgiving was established in 1789 as basically a day of gratitude for civil liberties, constitutional government, and relative tranquility.

            http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/nmah/thanks.htm

          • RKS

            Daily Kos as a source? Really?

            Wikipedia.

            “The event that Americans commonly call the “First Thanksgiving” was celebrated by the Pilgrims after their first harvest in the New World in 1621.[3] This feast lasted three days, and it was attended by 90 Native Americans (as accounted by attendee Edward Winslow)[4] and 53 Pilgrims.[5] The New England colonists were accustomed to regularly celebrating “thanksgivings”—days of prayer thanking God for blessings such as military victory or the end of a drought.[6]”

          • mr.wiener

            That particular gun isn’t loaded as he isn’t American.

          • Paulos

            I think you’re confusing Thanksgiving with the Columbus Day controversy. In any case I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Native American Heritage Month/Day:

            “As we celebrate the rich traditions of the original peoples of what is now the United States, we cannot forget the long and unfortunate chapters of violence, discrimination, and deprivation they had to endure. For far too long, the heritage we honor today was disrespected and devalued, and Native Americans were told their land, religion, and language were not theirs to keep. We cannot ignore these events or erase their consequences for Native peoples — but as we work together to forge a brighter future, the lessons of our past can help reaffirm the principles that guide our Nation today.” -Barack Obama, 2014

            http://nativeamericanheritagemonth.gov/
            http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/10/31/presidential-proclamation-national-native-american-heritage-month-2014-0

          • NeverMind

            As they say, the winner usually writes the history books…

            “The Thanksgiving Day Massacre…Or, would you like Turkey with your genocide? ”

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/23/273864/-The-Thanksgiving-Day-Massacre-Or-would-you-like-Turkey-with-your-genocide

          • Paulos

            Sorry, but the Pilgrim’s Thanksgiving Feast (1621) was in no way a celebration of victory in the Pequot War (1638) if that’s what you’re implying. Unless of course the Smithsonian is covering up the part where Native Americans generously offered the Pilgrims the gift of time-traveling DeLoreans:

            http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/nmah/thanks.htm

          • Apothis

            Are you always that stupid…or just today?

        • grand

          the majority of chinese like me are not interested in western democracy and we support CCP. the majority of hong kongers didn’t support those pro-democracy demonstrators. western democracy is failing in my view. europe is a mess and america will see more social unrests in the future. the fergurson unrest is just the begining.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            thanks for the update!

          • Dr Sun

            How do you know this ?

            “the majority of chinese like me are not interested in western democracy and we support CCP. the majority of hong kongers didn’t support those pro-democracy demonstrators”

            and you state that “western democracy is failing in my view” How is it failing ?

          • Just me, Banlas

            How is it failing?

            By their never-ending massacres of hundreds of millions of natives in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Philippines, Libya, Africa, Syria, Latin America…all in the faulty name of Western democracy.

          • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

            You can cross Libya off that list. They are doing fine. If anything, they are thriving. Mainly because the people wanted democracy and got it themselves rather than having it imposed by someone else.

          • bujiebuke

            NO

          • Alex Dương

            I remember you now. You actually denied that tens of millions of Chinese died of hunger during the Great Leap Forward, even though such figures are confirmed by the CCP’s own statistics.

          • grand

            CCP never said tens of millions starved to death. chinese who lived throught the period said there were foot shortages but they didn’t see many death. if that many people starved to death, you think they wouldn’t remember?

            the number “30 million death” was proved fake.

            http://www.csstoday.net/xueshuzixun/guoneixinwen/84655.html

            http://news.163.com/14/1206/08/ACP5ODRV00014SEH.html

            by the way, there were reports 7 million americans starved to death during the great depression. i bet you just gonna brush that aside and claim it was pure nonsense.

            http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/19-05-2008/105255-famine-0/

            http://www.infowars.com/researcher-famine-killed-7-million-in-us-during-great-depression/

          • mr.wiener

            foot shortages are a terrible thing. Time to go metric.

          • grand

            spelling nazi!

          • mr.wiener

            Sorry,I couldn’t resist that one *grins*

          • Alex Dương

            chinese who lived throught the period said there were foot shortages but they didn’t see many death. if that many people starved to death, you think they wouldn’t remember?

            Oh, they did remember. Ask Yang Jisheng, ex-Xinhua reporter and CCP member.

          • grand

            lol. did you read my links? it was already proved that he used fake data and numbers by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. i hope you read chinese.

            http://www.csstoday.net/xueshuzixun/guoneixinwen/84655.html

            even the CIA de-classified document show there was no “30 million death”. but of course they CIA would rather let the anti-communist anti-CCP rumor fly than let the truth out.

            http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/89801/DOC_0001098172.pdf

          • Alex Dương
          • grand

            no matter how they spin it, Yang Jisheng was caught using fake numbers and data. sorry, he has no credibility now.

          • Alex Dương

            Who is “they”? The participants at Wuhan University?

          • grand

            “they” are fans of Yang Jisheng and his lies.

            it’s funny that in your article it basically says that Yang is not credible because he is just a methmatician and has no knowledge about historical or demographic research but it can’t refute the data and evidence he showed that proved Yang a liar. and what about yang jisheng? lol! he is a journalist and that makes him an expert on historical or demographic research?

          • Alex Dương

            So the CIA managed to bribe all the participants at Wuhan University? That’s…amazing. So amazing, in fact, that it’s much easier to believe that they just didn’t find Sun’s arguments to be any good.

          • grand

            what are you talking about? who said anything about CIA? “all the participants”? pure fantasy!

            t’s funny that in your article it basically says that Yang is not credible because he is just a mathmatician and “has no expertise about historical or demographic research” but did nothing to refute the data and evidence he showed. yang jisheng is a newspaper reporter and that makes him an expert on historical or demographic research?

          • Alex Dương

            Who said anything about the CIA? You did. You’re the one accusing everyone who provides evidence of the tens of millions of Chinese who died of hunger during the Great Leap Forward of being in cahoots with the CIA.

          • grand

            your so-called “evidence that thens of millions died of huger during the Great Leap Forward” is already proved to be erroneous and full of holes.

          • Alex Dương

            We’re just going in circles now. If you want to place all your faith in Sun Jingxian, that’s your choice.

          • grand

            i will change my mind if Sun can be proved wrong. so far no one has done that. on the other hand, Yang Jisheng got caught faking evidence and ran away from the debate .

          • http://www.myspace.com/_lovedaddy_ JohnnyMorales

            pravda.ru infowars.com

            Alex Dương he’s hopeless LOL

            If he depends on those two websites for information, no wonder he is so misled.

            They both make their money from fear mongering and telling tall tales that only people who believe everything they read on websites they like is fact.

          • Teacher in China

            You need to read “Mao’s Great Famine”. The list of sources he uses runs into the 10s of pages, all direct sources from local government offices in China. The number of deaths is more than 30 million. It is indisputable fact.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            There is no statistics on the number of deaths, all figures of deaths are guesses based on the numbers of population statistics before and after the period. Applying the same method, 7 million people were starved to death during the great recession.

          • Teacher in China

            That’s not entirely true. The book “Mao’s Great Famine” by Frank Dikotter is a definitive and fair look at the entire Great Leap Forward catastrophe. Rather than me summarizing the whole book for you, I suggest you go and read it yourself. I’ve just looked at the book again, and the number he arrives at in the final chapter (NOT based purely on population statistics before and after the period) is a minimum of 45 million.

          • DC

            why do the mainland commies insist they know the opinions of the “majority” of Hong Kongers…

            the CCP must be putting some really good shit in the BS they’ve been feeding you for you to lap it all up and beg for more.

          • mr.wiener

            I find more wistfull thinking than fact in your post.

        • kkw

          Are you talking about 9/11? ;)

      • uh huh

        You can easily compare them, with just a few simple questions:

        “We they in the right to do what they did? Did they have the moral high ground? Did they abuse their authority? Did they go too far?”

        Nope, nope, yep, and yep. In both cases.

        A difference in scale doesn’t mean a difference in kind, you know.

        • ClausRasmussen

          >> A difference in scale doesn’t mean a difference in kind, you know

          Your reasoning is horrible. Take a mere corruption scandal in, say European football: Was they in the right to do what they did ? Did they have the moral high ground ? Did they abuse their authority ? Did they go too far ?

          Answers: Nope, nope, yep, and yep and voila, we have just equaled the Nanjing massacre to something completely different.

          It is called “relativism”. It is the disgusting trademark of a sick liberal mind: You select what you want to compare (and what you want leave out) so it fits your agenda, it is not very different from how ISIS, Al Queda, Boko Haram, Hamaz, etc. argue their case

          • Kai

            As someone who considers himself to have “liberal” values, I don’t think it’s fair to say that sort of thinking is “liberal” thinking. It’s just a fallacy, transitive properties, and something both “liberal” and “conservative” people do, often because it is convenient for the argument at hand.

          • ClausRasmussen

            Relativism, or more specific “value relativism”, is an attempt to make everything equally valid (or invalid). I think you mistake it for the more pedestrian whataboutery (that one error can excuse another error) that is common from all parties in a political discussion

            Value relativism is typical of liberal thinking because it is opposed to the conservative assertion that something (culture, moral, politics) is better than something else. You can find boundless examples of that line of thought in discussions about Islam vs. the West, USA vs. the rest of the World, communism vs. capitalism, multiculturalism vs. nationalism etc.

      • narsfweasels

        “comparing around 2000 casualties ”

        1) Around 2000 murders.

        2) All lives are important, or none are. One death or a thousand deaths is irrelevant if you don’t have the right to take the life

        (where among deaths were also CCP military and
        police)

        1) Soldiers are meant to fight the enemy of the people, when the state turns the enemy of the people into the people, then the state is the real enemy and has lost legitimacy.

        2) These soldiers should have done the right thing – not shot children in the back as they ran away. They could have refused the order and have been summarily dismissed, thrown into jail or executed. Whichever the outcome, it would have been better than shooting children in the back.

        3) This “Oh, soldiers died too” rhetoric has emerged since the 25th Anniversary of the murders, mostly among the propagandists. It’s just another way of attempting to deflect blame.

        • mr.wiener

          I wonder how many soldiers fired to miss? People wonder at the identity of the “tankman”. I wonder as to the identity of the guy driving the lead tank.

          • Brian227

            I wonder at why the PLA stalled for so long at Muxidi Bridge; I wonder why they used tear gas and baton rounds if they were there to crush an uprising with maximum force; I wonder how the 5km drive from there to the square took the time it did if their orders were to mow down any innocents in their way; I wonder about the amount of SAA being expended on the approach as indicated by the noises of gunfire and wonder about who was aiming and at what; I wonder about how, in a city which had ground to a halt as a result of a month of strikes and embargoes, so many petrol bombs were available so quickly.

            I wonder why so few other people wonder about these questions and why so many are outraged I even think to ask.

          • DC

            knowing the CCP, you can bet those identities will never make the light of day

        • Kai

          I worry there is often convenient hypocrisy in these sorts of discussions about scale and “uniqueness”. I’m not accusing you for this because I don’t know off the top of my head that you’ve done this, but I do want to make a point.

          People often object to others likening incidents to the Holocaust. This has happened on cS before as well (one example). They argue that recklessly using “holocaust” to describe other things ends up cheapening the Holocaust and not giving the latter due respect, often invoking the sheer scale and how uniquely methodical the latter was relative to the incident that is being likened to the Holocaust.

          While I also think lives are lives and that “all lives are important or none are”, I can’t deny there is a valid point being made in such an objection.

          Usually, no one is saying some lives are more important than others. That’s a straw man of the other person’s point about the significance of scale.

          Next, bringing up some other tragedy can arguably be considered an attempt to deflect or otherwise shift attention, which is something “Chinese apologists” are often accused of doing as well. If there’s a valid point in Ruaraidh doing so (and I think there is), then people should remember that others have a valid point as well. More importantly, that having a vlid point and shifting attention are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

          All that said, a few other minor points:

          1) Words are powerful. Just like the 300,000 deaths in Nanjing, the 2000 deaths at Tiananmen are a mix of both “casualties” and arguably “murders”.

          1) (the second one) Thiis emotionally appealing but doesn’t reconcile with every country that has martial law.

          2) A lot of soldiers did refuse the order and it was an very small minority who purposefully shot specifically “children” in the back. I think inadvertently generalizing all the soldiers as all setting out to do that is a bit unfair to the facts.

          3) No, it has been part of historical record since the the incident happened, not the 25th anniversary. It’s just overlooked and rarely presented because it doesn’t fit desired narratives.

          A lot of civilians died that night and it’s unfair to characterize them as “children” though children did die. A lot weren’t even students but regular blue collar workers and adult city residents. It’s also unfair to not recognize that substantial violence occurred on both sides because, again, “all lives are important or none t all”. While some might invoke the death of soldiers to deflect blame, I believe most people are trying to point out that it was a chaotic situation and a lot of unintended but panicked, infuriated, and ultimately terrible things happened. There were people who did the wrong thing and people who tried to do the right thing, and people who did what they thought they had to.

          There’s a lot of appeal to emotion fallacies involved in both Nanjing and Tiananmen. Maybe it can’t be avoided, but it would be good to recognize them for what they are in both situations consistently.

          • Rick in China

            A lot of soldiers did refuse the order and it was an very small minority who purposefully shot specifically “children” in the back.

            I thought that all the original regiment of soldiers refused to fire upon the people, because the original regiment was made up of predominantly other Beijingers. The response was for DXP to begin a rotation scheme (immediately) which still exists today – where the PLA soldiers do not operate in their own hometown regions, which is why even today when people join the military, they’re immediately rotated elsewhere – to prevent the whole refusing orders to ‘control’ (read: fire upon) those they feel more kinship with. Is this myth? I thought I read it somewhere credible, and it made complete sense at the time.

          • Kai
          • ClausRasmussen

            >> Is this myth?

            According to the Wiki link Kai gives, there were four armies involved, from good to bad: 38th (Beijing), 40th (North-East of Beijing), 16th (also from North East), and 27th (Hebei)

            The 38th was especially popular among the citizens while the 27th was loathed. They almost got into a fight with each other

            What I think is most interesting is that it was not (just) the common soldiers that disobeyed. It was the officers that commanded the units ! Two generals, a division commander, a chief of staff, and a political commissary were sacked in the aftermath.

            The Wiki page report that CCP as a consequence reshuffled all their commanders (but not the soldiers) to ensure loyalty in the future. Maybe that’s the core of the myth ?

        • kkw

          So you are saying the holocaust is similar to the Palestinians killed by the IDF. Bravo.

      • Ted Roedel

        Westerners can see what is happening, even if the Chinese people cannot… China is in the grip of rising, bellicose nationalism, the same kind that afflicted Imperial Germany exactly one hundred years ago. Your government is manipulating your emotions and preparing you for war against Japan. It’s so obvious, it’s hard for us to believe you can’t see it. And just like Imperial Germany 100 years ago, the Chinese are fooling themselves into thinking that they can win a “splendid little war” against the foreign devils who humiliated them long ago. And just as with Imperial Germany, the war will be destructive beyond belief, waste millions of lives and destroy your national strength. Learn from history!

        • Xia

          1) If there ever were a hot conflict, it will be between China and the US. Japan is just a proxy.
          2) German ambitions brought down the British Empire. If the Chinese were to start a war, it will be a devastation to itself. But enough to break the American hegemony. Russia will be the one laughing in the end.
          3) As if Chinese politicians are that stupid to start a war, they are just using jingoism to rationalize defense spendings. No war is fought without economic gain, and a total war with Japanese is not a lucrative business.

          • Ted Roedel

            The Chinese are playing with fire with their aggressive actions in the East and South China Sea; they may get themselves in a position where they are “honor-bound” to fight (same as Germany did to itself). And like the Germans, yes, the Chinese WILL end up fighting the most powerful navy of the day. Though they would be very foolish to forget how powerful an opponent the Japanese can be (the U.S. has not forgotten, I assure you).
            It is not only the Chinese who are at fault when it comes to the rising tensions. The Japanese are being unnecessarily provocative in their rhetoric, and I think they have a duty to better acknowledge their war crimes. But nothing the Japanese are doing today does anything to threaten war. Not so with the Chinese, as you can see from the behavior of their air force and navy.

          • grand

            most powerful navy? japan? don’t make me laugh. without the US, japan is hopeless.

          • Probotector

            He was referring to the US Navy

        • David

          Is there a mouse in your pocket? Please remember to say this is how YOU see things and don’t speak for all of the people in the west (except for West Hollywood, you can speak for them).

          • Ted Roedel

            Didn’t say everybody in the West, necessarily. There are plenty of Westerners who could benefit from studying history, too.

        • Observer

          Learn from history: Westerners were not always right with their historical/political/economic predictions :P

          • Ted Roedel

            Predicting that a war is going to harder and bloodier than you think, is usually a safe prediction. But rising nationalism in China (deliberately stoked by the CCP, including PR stunts like these new “holidays” aimed at increasing Chinese hatred for the Japanese) has the effect of making people over-confident. This was another one of the fatal mistakes that all the European powers suffered from, before WWI – overconfidence that they could win easily. All the television propaganda in China – the history dramas, the news – all has this effect on the Chinese. I’m not saying that the Chinese are warmongering (though they have come close to committing acts of war against Vietnam): but they are deliberately raising tensions (again, with these anti-Japanese holidays), and in that environment of increased tension, somebody can make a mistake out on the waters, an accidental naval engagement that leads to a sudden escalation of hostilities, until things are out of control. I think we can all agree: it would be utterly stupid for China and the U.S. to repeat the same mistakes of Imperial Germany and Britain one hundred years ago.

          • Xia

            The Chinese government is also strong at keeping the public from going overboard. But this does not exclude the possibility that in case the situation escalates and the CPC fails to respond, a minority may hijack the wave and use it for themselves.

      • Probotector

        Dipshit, he’s bringing up the point that China is always pointing fingers at who wrongs them, but never faces up to their own wrongdoings.

      • firebert5

        Pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger IS “deliberate execution.”

    • 白色纯棉小裤裤

      The June 4th incident deserve a memorial day, but using it as a tool to downplay Japanese atrocities in Nanjing is disrespectful to people died in both incidents.

      • Rick in China

        Nobody is downplaying the atrocities in Nanjing. They’re just saying – if you want to demand recognition for one historical tragedy (especially one to which very few actually deny, a few far right old men in Japan, maybe), stop denying recognition of another historic tragedy (especially one which at a state-wide level is vehemently refuted to have occurred at all), and this goes beyond just TAM, but to many incidents kept quiet.

        • 白色纯棉小裤裤

          So you are saying you should not have a memorial day for any tragedy unless you recognize all of them?

          • Rick in China

            No. I said what I said, not what you paraphrased, so let me try making it easier to understand:

            Downplaying the atrocities in Nanjing would be saying something like “They weren’t that bad, look at June 4th!” — Nobody is saying that.

            Bringing up the point that a gov’t continually harps on about one incident for their own benefit (which are many), whilst refusing to take responsibility (or acknowledge, even) their own atrocities, brings about an air of hypocrisy that surely someone needs to point out. Nobody is saying that the Nanjing issue is any less important as a result, of that point.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            nope, thats exactly what you were saying

            if you want to demand recognition for one historical tragedy , stop denying recognition of another historic tragedy

            that’s equivalent as

            You can’t demand recognition for one historical tragedy if you deny recognition of another historic tragedy

            which is translated to

            You can’t demand recognition for one historical tragedy unless you recognize all historic tragedies

          • Rick in China

            I realize English isn’t your native language, so I’ll give you a break. I will explain the meaning and differences of these to you. You have to realize it’s about criticising for being extremely hypocritical, not identifying rules for observing memorials.

            Advice via “should” is not the same as permission via “can”. The first quote is advice. If you want to behave in this manner, stop behaving in that — it’s a suggestion, for if it is not done in this manner, one comes off as being hypocritical, and people will easily call out your hypocrisy rather than remembering those lost and how. The value of the call for memorial is weakened. To strengthen it, come clean, a cleaner town crier is harder to ignore than one filled up to their eyes with shit, pouring out of every orifice.

            You’re understanding that sound advice as some sort of rule or regulation, ie. can/can’t. If I tell you, you had better smarten up and improve your language skill before bringing it, son…. that’s advice. It’s not saying you can’t spout shit, you absolutely most assuredly can, it just wont have any impact.

            Got it? So, yes, they can demand recognition all they want – and the people deserve a memorial for the dead, but, the longer they deny their own atrocities, it’s going to continue to detract from the attention paid to those to which they are asking for attention.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            So? then it becomes

            You should not demand recognition for one historical tragedy unless you recognize all historic tragedies

            you think that makes any difference?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            And its funny Canada have a remembrance day for 30,000 military casualties, and when China make a memorial day for 300,000 civilians killed in a massacre it becomes ” harps on about one incident for their own benefit”

          • Rick in China

            Canada doesn’t have remembrance day in the news every week talking shit about how terrible German people are. In fact, many Canadians _are_ Germans (by heritage).

            How many Chinese are Japanese (by heritage)? Oh, man, that even just sounds weird. I forgot, nobody can become Chinese, it’s the master nationality.

          • Probotector

            “I forgot, nobody can become Chinese, it’s the master nationality.”

            Classic

          • grand

            that’s a lot of nonsense. first of all germany doesnt deny holocaust and other war crimes while japan claims nanjing massacra never happened. what about the confort women issue? just recently japan is furious about US releasing a flim about it abusing POWs during WW2.

          • Alex Dương

            I forgot, nobody can become Chinese, it’s the master nationality.

            It is fair to say that Chinese nationality laws make it almost impossible to naturalize as Chinese, but let’s be real here, Rick: do you want to become Chinese?

          • Rick in China

            Only in my heart of hearts!

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Sorry but Canada have nothing remotely to do with Germany in terms of war atrocities. You comparison makes no sense.

          • Paulos

            Canada fought in both world wars against Germany.

            Rick is saying that although Canada suffered heavy casualties during those wars, their government doesn’t demonize Germany or German people. To do so would be considered not only racist, but also disrespectful to the memory of those being commemorated.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            War casualties are nothing comparable to those died in a massacre or concentration camps. 30,000 deaths are not heavy casualties either(comparing to the tens of millions of deaths in the Soviet Union and China ). So using Canada as an example does not make any sense.

          • Rick in China

            Oh, you poor tool you. My grandfather had a sorta limp for the entirety of his life after surviving Dieppe and various other battles. A German bullet fragment remained lodged in his femur. There is no hatred against the Germans or the German who shot that bullet – though. In your implication, Jewish people should all hate Germans, yes? Is that what you’re saying, or am I off base?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            As a soldier, you know there is a risk before you go to the battle field, so there is really no hate for battle related injury and death whats so ever, your grandfather has also caused injuries/deaths to Germans as well, assuming he did not suck at shooting.

          • Teacher in China

            “If some germany rightwing politicians and some german kids on the internet are still constantly denying the holocaust, then some Jewish people have the reason to hate germany.”

            No, they have a reason to hate the people making those statements, not the whole country. That’s the concept that you and too many other Chinese people don’t seem to grasp.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            The fact that the country allows those statements to be made said something about the country itself.
            Germany doesn’t allow those statements to be made, Japan does. Thats the difference between the two countries.

          • Teacher in China

            Ok, we should differentiate between two things; first, from your original comment, some German kids on the internet denying the holocaust would not make people hate Germany, and nor should it. The hate would be focused on that specific group or website, or whatever.

            Second, the politicians. I guess if a politician spouted nonsense like that and was not immediately censured or fired, people would be angry. If it happened over and over again and was seemingly encouraged by ALL the leading officials in Germany, then yes, maybe a lot of people around the world would begin hating Germany… but I’m not sure we’re at that point with Japan yet.

            My biggest problem, living as I do in small town Dongbei, is that people too often project all the feelings about Japan and WWII and suspect behaviour by government officials onto each and every Japanese person currently existing, and that’s where I have a huge problem. Don’t judge each and every person because of some sha bi government people. Not saying that you are doing this, just giving you some background as to why I responded to your original comment.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            The government is the representative of a country. Why you think Vietnamese smashed Chinese factories because of some actions taken by the CCP? Of cause it is incorrect, but its also understandable. You know what the majority of the expats on this website say about the Vietnamese riot in which many Chinese nationals are killed? Kill more Chinese, FUCK the CCP, Its the wrong doing of China in south China sea, You get what you deserve, etc. And all rational people like you who suggest one should not hate every people of a nation because of some sha bi government people suddenly disappeared. Such a difference of comments on those two different topics make me think people like you are not arguing because you believe it, its simply because you hate China.

          • Teacher in China

            Go back through my comment history and show me where I have once done that. Good luck finding anything because I haven’t.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I did not say you have done that, but on this website there are plenty of irrational people posting hatred comments against all Chinese for something done by a few Chinese people, if you and other people like you truly believed in what you have said, you should have argued with them. Give me an example where you applied your rationality on behalf of Chinese people.

          • Teacher in China

            Look through my comment history. You’ll see that I have done that numerous times. I’m not one of the people who automatically jumps to the defense of the Chinese at every imagined slight, nor am I a person who would do that for Canadians. Sometimes I don’t comment because I am lazy, but I make sure to at least upvote and downvote according to what I feel is a fair response in any given argument.

            You have a bone to pick with people commenting here, that’s fine. Leave me out of it. I’m not one of the people who deserves it.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Give me one example and I will shut up. Since you made the comment yourself it should not be hard to find.

          • Teacher in China

            Ahhh but that I would leave you with the false impression that I give a shit what you think of me.

            Have a wonderful day.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Then I will just categorize you as another China hater. Any of your further replies to my comments will be considered trolling.
            Have a nice day.

          • Kai

            Christ, dude, can you link to anything @teacher_in_china:disqus has said that marks him as an unrepentent China hater?

            I think you’re projecting a bit too much here, and it seems the basis of you accusing him of such is not so much because you have evidence of him being one but because you accused him of being one without evidence and he has chosen to merely deny instead of disprove your unsubstantiated accusation.

            Prove your accusation first before demanding that he disprove it.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I over reacted because most comments I see here are disgusting and have no compassion at all.
            Imagine on the memorial day of the Holocaust someone jumps out and say “When will there be a memorial day for Gaza bombing”, and on the memorial day of 911 someone says “You should not have a memorial day for 911 unless you stop what you’re doing in Afghanistan and Iraq”
            Yes I am projecting a bit too much, but its nothing close to the majority of other comments on this topic.

          • Kai

            I understand and empathize with your frustration. I think you can see that in many of my comments as well, both past and present. Still, it doesn’t help your argument or cause to recklessly and blindly lash out at random people, especially with accusations that don’t arguably apply to them specifically. The people you are upset with do the very same thing, so it’s better to avoid making the same mistakes as them.

          • Kai

            I like to think I’ve gotten to know @teacher_in_china:disqus enough to know he doesn’t hate China or isn’t one of those stereotypical hypocritical China bashers, so I want to step in here and point that out because it could easily be interpreted that you are accusing him of that and I think that is inaccurate and unfair based on what I know about him versus you.

            Your point however is valid. There are indeed people who are often or at least seem to be inconsistent in when they apply the ideal of separating a government from its people/rest of the country. There are indeed instances where people will say that in some situations involving certain countries but not in other situations involving other countries, betraying their double-standards and biases. That’s a valid point and a phenomenon that I think all rational and reasonable people would be forced to recognize.

            But as a character witness, Teacher in China isn’t the best example of someone who arguably “hates China”.

          • Paulos

            You are mistaken. This is not a discussion about which incidents were worse. This is a discussion about how to appropriately commemorate historical tragedies.

            Many consider Canada to be the embodiment of modern multiculturalism and inclusive citizenship. As such it is an appropriate benchmark in situations where government actions may detract from those principles.

            I hope that helps you make sense of the conversation.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Nope, 30,000 military deaths is NOT a historical tragedy.

    • Marcus Black

      Dude shut your mouth. That’s like saying “Can’t wait for the Native American Massacre Memorial Day” on the memorial day of 9/11. What you and most people don’t realise is that the students during the Tienanmen Square incident were killing and burning police. Any country would have done the same if a bunch of students started burning police. For example, England would have called in the army if the students started burning police during the London student protest. In fact they were going to bring in the military if the police with reinforcements from Scotland and Wales were unable to dissolve the protest. When China does it, its wrong but when America and bitches do it, nobody bats an eye. Double standard at its best. China is certainly not perfect but if you’re going to criticise it, you should hold America and slaves to the same standard.

      • mr.wiener

        Were they burning police before the crack down or in response to it?

        • Rick in China

          Please don’t prod the obviously making-up-or-buying-in bullshit present in that splurge of shit smear upon our screens.

        • Kai

          The popular implication is that civilians retaliated after the soldiers/police first crossed the line but it’s pretty much impossible to determine who first resorted to violence in the confrontations that occurred as police and military converged to clear out the square. The military had their orders and the people tried to stop them. They are necessarily going to come face to face, tensions and emotions are high, people are both defiant and scared, someone is going to make a mistake. We put greater responsibility for the violence on the military because they are trained to know they have command of more force and deadly force at that. They are held to a higher standard than ordinary civilians.

        • Marcus Black

          I’ll break it down for you. Students start acting up, police step in to calm things down because that’s what they are paid to do. Students escalate and start killing police. Government has no choice but to teach these students a lesson and preserve order. China is not the place for riots to break out because many more people will die due to the large population density in cities. An example from the good ol past would be the boxer rebellion. I believe the government did the right thing. Western powers are on standby to exploit any protest in China and turn it into a movement for government change so they can install a puppet that will suck their c*ck and bend over for them to have their way with said country. Before you know it, things progress into a full blown civil war. This has happened in Syria, Libya, Iran and lately Ukraine.

          • mr.wiener

            You know this for a fact or is this speculation? Unfortunately I wouldn’t be prepared to accept th CCP’s narative of this.

          • Lei Feng’s Hat

            Sorry for your break down. There is no way the University students who were assembled at Tiananmen burned police officers.

      • Brian227

        ‘England’ (by which I assume you mean the UK) out the army on the streets of Northern Ireland when people started shooting and throwing bombs at the police. We kept them there for 30 years.

        If you asked a representative sample of people from the community doing the shooting and petrol bombing, I’m sure they’ll be quick to tell you all about the atrocities and genocide committed by ‘de evil Brits’ during that time. It’s getting them to shut up that’s the tricky bit.

    • Observer

      The way you seem to care about the violent death of 300k Chinese people tells a lot about how much you really care about the 2k who died in Tiananmen. Is respect so expensive/difficult to ask for?

      • mr.wiener

        It depends. In some ways the for Tianamin incident the west and the opponents of China uses the bones of dead to make polical soup. With regards to the Nanjing massacre the chinese govt uses the bones of their dead to make nationalistic soup to further their rivalry with Japan and divert the populance’s attention from issues of the ecconomy ,a widening gap between the rich and the poor and corruption.
        I think in both cases a little honesty, introspecton and respect are needed to give the dead some dignity.

    • Balkan

      Those are two different situations and it is very cynical to say what you said.

    • DC

      what’s one got to do with the other?

  • Wenhao

    This is probably going to get a lot of downvotes, but I feel like you shouldn’t let the past prevent you from being happy. It’s fine to acknowledge that something bad happened in the past, but you shouldn’t let it interfere with your happiness and quality of life. On a massive scale, you have Chinese people reading this and becoming preoccupied with these ideas that are put into their head that they have no control over.

    Instead of thinking about stuff that you have no control over and can’t fix, I feel like it would be more productive for Chinese people to think about stuff that they have control over so that they can change the future and improve their quality of life. It seems like Chinese people should either focus on fixing the current problems that China faces, such as pollution, poverty, and lack of good education, instead of focusing on the unchangeable past.

    I understand that we should learn about history and these massacres that happened almost 80 years ago, but if it doesn’t help us very much, we should focus more on how we can help other people and ourselves right now.

    • 42

      We should never forget what happened during the holocaust and nanking massacre. Or do you think we human beings today are not capable of performing such atrocities again? Are you forgetting that till even this day there are groups and organizations like ISIS and muslim fanatics who execute, exterminate and cut peoples head off? Oh no, we should never forget!

    • Kai

      The interesting thing about this is that the Chinese government has and does actually try to present it as impetus for national self-improvement. This is alluded to in a lot of the comments. The whole “century of humiliation” narrative is fundamentally about realizing and remembering that it was Chinese complacency, backwardness, and failure to adapt to the times that resulted in the national weakness that in turn allowed the violations and tragedies it suffered. The moral of the story is that China has to make itself strong to avoid that history from happening again in the future.

      That is definitely thinking about things you have control over and can fix.

      What can’t be controlled are people’s reactions to this, and this is universal around the globe. Even when history is used to remind people of the horrors of what one man can do to another, you will have people whose reactions lean towards resentment and retributive hate. How many people watched Schindler’s List and thought “wow, we must prevent a Holocaust from ever happening again” without also thinking “fucking Nazis”?

  • Irvin

    And people were wondering why aliens haven’t made contact yet, to them we must seem like savage hyenas.

    • David

      Or the aliens only exist at the bottom of a whiskey bottle?

  • guest

    I have nothing against the Chinese remembering their dead, many countires have memorial days for those who died as a result wars or being in active service in those wars but I have to ask why has it taken so long. I have to wonder, given the tone of the translation(s) and that is directly picking on one event and not the whole of the war or the wars by anyone that have plagued China, it just sounds like sneaky low-level propaganda to continue nationalist feelings given Sino-Japanese relations in the last couple of years. To me it plays along with the newly appointed Tibetan “Serfs Emancipation Day” which came the year after the Tibetan riots of 2008.

    • Rick in China

      Serfs Emancipation Day…that’s awesome, US should try that – start a Iraqi Liberation Day in Iraq, maybe ISIS will go away.

    • KenjiAd

      I have to wonder, given the tone of the translation(s) and that is
      directly picking on one event and not the whole of the war or the wars
      by anyone that have plagued China, it just sounds like sneaky low-level propaganda to continue nationalist feelings given Sino-Japanese
      relations in the last couple of years.

      Although CCTV is state-owned, I don’t think the central government is checking everything it writes on weibo. More likely than not, these weibos are written by a staff member(s) who is just trying to build his/her career within the organization. I might be a little cynical here, but I suspect that, on this particular occasion, he or she just chose to write in a highly emotional way, because it would most likely maximize the exposure.

      If you actually read what Xi said in the memorial, I thought he sounded a lot conciliatory toward Japan. He mentioned that, even though China should never forget the past, it also needs to look forward. He specifically mentioned the importance of making distinction between Japanese militarists and ordinary citizens.

      I have no way knowing this, but I always feel that Xi is a very skilled politician who can get get many politically risky tasks (such as anti-corruption campaign) done. So I actually think (certainly hope) that Xi has a long term goal of improving the bilateral relationship with Japan.

      Improving the relationship with Japan carries a lot of political risks of course. I think that the timing of starting this memorial may have something to do with a possible preemptive strike against the party hardliners who would be attacking him if he started negotiating with Japan in economic fronts. With him initiating this memorial event, the hardliners can’t criticize him of being soft on Japan.

      Again I have no way knowing it. All I know, however, is that in China, what appears to be happening and what is really happening are often two completely different things.

      Finally, as a Japanese national myself, even though I was born after the war, I actually feel sorry for what my native country did to China and Chinese people. I wish our government would do more to apologize.

  • guest

    We should have our own “Hate China Day” in America. Remember the national humiliation we suffered from MSG headaches!

    • Observer

      What??

      So is commemorating Pear Harbour a “Hate Japan Day” for the US? Is commemorating the two atomic bombs on Japan a “Hate the USA Day”? Is commemorating the victims of WWII a “Hate Germany Day”?

      Seriously? Man… 300k people, some respect…

  • willze

    Is half of chinasmack followed by losers jealous of China’s progress, wanting to get news about a country they hate? Sure seems that way. And I bet these pathetic idiots are japan war crime apologetics, whitewashers or deniers as well just because they hate China.

    Because only Americans can remember their war history before and after completing Manifest Destiny as well as celebrating Columbus Day, only Australians can celebrate Australia (colonization) Day and commemorate Anzac Day decades before the Stolen Generation, only Europeans can remember their victory/memorial days while they still had authoritarian imperial empires stealing foreign resources, and only Japan can visit their war criminals in Yasakuni Shrine and deny photographic and video evidence, but as soon as China remembers the worst massacre in recorded history everyone changes the subject and says/implies that they shouldn’t. Only to these biased haters.

    • narsfweasels

      This is a useful object lesson in identifying and recognizing the kind of psychological propaganda warfare that the Chinese state is waging on free-thinkers.

      “western”

      Firstly, the “West” as a political and geographical construct is fictional, and a remenant from the Cold War: it doesn’t exist, much in the way that the “East” does not exist. There is no political homogenity amongst these supposed “western” states, and a limited shared cultural heritage.

      However, the propagandist will use the term “western” to force detractors to self identify, and therefore be drawn into an argument.

      “Losers”

      An ad hominem attack, a weak one actually, given the generalisation of “western”. But nonetheless, this one is attempting to force commentators onto the back foot, and assume a defensive argumentitive position.

      “jealous”

      Again, the psychology of this is to force commenters into a more defensive position, having to justify their alleged “jealousy” or completely disprove it, already pushing them into a weaker position.

      “pathetic idiots are japan war crime apologetics or deniers as well just because they hate China.”

      Once more, an attempt to force a defensive response from commenters – something along the lines of “We done condone war crimes, they were terrible…” automatically weakening the position of the speaker.

      All in all, this was a poor comment from the author, but there are present some of the typical psychological cues that are used to undermine free expression and force tacit acceptance of the Chinese position.

      • Xia

        As long as CPC is ruling, do you really think the Cold War has fully ended? It just went underground, but the clash of two systems never stopped and is still on-going.

        • vincent_t

          Nope, with trillion of direct investments made between both countries, and lots of prominent China companies listed on Nasdaq and attracting American investors, and lots of US companies setting up their RND and factories here, it is totally different kind of war, it is anthing but the Cold War

      • Kai
        • Probotector

          …and so do you.

          • Kai

            I probably have at times, but when I point it out, I substantiate my claims. You don’t.

      • 42

        watch out, here comes the 50 cents paranoia police, narsfweasels !

        seems just cant get it into its thick skull that not all people think alike on internet, and actually disagreement on opinions do exists even on this forum. as soon as anything that doesnt sound good to its ears will condemn it hastily as propaganda warfare, utterly and gruesomely pathetic! get a life purleaaaase!

        • narsfweasels

          Another good example:

          The use of the word “paranoia” again expects a defensive reply from the respondent along the lines of “I’m not paranoid, but…” – the repetition of the word gives it a certain strength, as intended by the commentor to sow doubt in the mind of the reader and the respondent.

          In this case, it has been joined to the 50 cent party, which is relatively subtle, but a transparent effort to link “paranoia” with the existence of the 50 Cent Party. Therefore tacit acceptance or defense of this supposed “paranoia” is tacit acceptance or defense of an irrational belief in the existence of paid propagandists, weakening subtly the position of the original poster.

          The remainder of the post is simple ad-hominem, atypically a sign that the poster feels he or she is losing ground, and seeks to provoke an irrational response on the part of the respondent, thereby again weakening their position.

          • 42

            a very common tea-party tactics is to ridicule any comments that makes incredible sense and has sound arguments, but which doesnt fit its biased view. Nevertheless will brand it as brainwashing propaganda activity and cyber warfare, its goal is to emphasize that the comment is wrong and violates human rights as human kinds knows it, thus killing the discussion completely, and actually closes down on free speech, for which it defends so vastly, setting a trap for people to diverse itself from the main topic and ignore completely what has been said, even if the comment make incredibly sense, we have a word for such quasi human beings,its called a troll……

    • David

      Umm a HORRIBLE thing happened in Nanjing, but if you think it is the most horrible massacre in human history, your either using hyperbole or need to study history better. I think what most people object to is not China remembering it, but the hypocrisy of the Chinese government using the memory as a propaganda tool to continue to oppress its own people while distracting it with hatred for others. As far as the hypocrisy of those other countries (many of the example of which I do not agree are a problem but you do), there are many who protest them every year, for the very reasons you don’t like them, in their open democracies (where they are allowed to and not run over by tanks from the soldiers of their own country).

    • Zappa Frank

      zzzzz so boring,..again..

    • mr.wiener

      Is that the sound of one hand deflecting I hear?

    • 42

      Well said! I just recently checked out chinaSMACK more often, and it disgusted me by the idea this forum seems to solemnly exist to bash on China behind their back, even on topics that seemingly nothing to bash about but somehow managing to squeeze out a little bash out of their a-hole crack, and wipe their computer screens all over with it!

      • Kai

        Dude, at least @disqus_LeUGVKUmGm:disqus gave the benefit of the doubt that “half” of us aren’t like that! LoL

        I think you’ll realize that a lot of English forums about China are going to have critics and bashers. It wouldn’t be fair to say the forum exists “solemnly” (solely?) to bash on China, but it will necessarily reflect some of the dynamics of that discussion that does indeed exist about China. I like to think there are more than a few of us who “fight the good fight” by trying to be fair and measured in our discourse, giving credit where it is due, acknowledging valid points, and reeling in those who go too far. Hopefully you’ll join our “side”. ;)

  • Guest

    If you keep on nagging that Chinese people is oppressed by their government, you will not make any friends in China. Chinese pride is a weird kind of thing. High level of tolerance for abuses by its own people, especially those in a position of authority, but whenever a foreigner acts high and mighty on something China related, it quickly becomes unbearable.

  • Xia

    ChinaSmack, It’d be interesting to see which of the comments are made by people with little past activity? Definitely sounds suspicious.

    • Rick in China

      Are you talking about ChinaSmack comments or the translated comments? You can click the red names to see # of posts or recent activity. Looking at the CS posts, there are no seemingly new accounts that have jumped on this topic.

      • Xia

        I mean the translated comments. “It is worth nothing that some of the above highly-upvoted comments were made by accounts with little past activity.”

        • Rick in China

          Absolutely agree – should be some marker of sorts to identify the ones that are seemingly accounts created with ulterior motives as opposed to genuine perspectives from regular users..

    • Kai

      The source link and usernames are all there. The only reason I inserted this bit of editorializing into my translation was because commenters previously expressed they were okay with it. Nonetheless, I still wanted to let readers figure out things on their own, because I think it’ll be a more significant realization that way.

      Also, the main story is that this CCTV post was popular on Weibo. That some of the comments are suspicious is a substory but I don’t want to make the story into “CCTV post has suspicious comments” because that’ll distract from the non-suspicious ones and their own significance.

      Since you asked, check out at least the profiles of the first and third commenter. I still haven’t figured out what’s the right balance between pointing out my own insights versus letting people do it on their own.

      • Xia

        Could it be that some netizens open up proxy accounts to post inflammatory comments and hide their own identity?

        • Kai

          It could be. Our suspicions and speculations ultimately reveal a bit about ourselves as well. These comments and every single upvote could be legit, but I want to register my suspicions. That said, nationalistic/hateful rhetoric is hardly a rarity on the Chinese internet, or any internet frankly. It’s just good to always remind ourselves to be critical of what we see and read.

      • bujiebuke

        You meant to write “worth noting” instead of “worth nothing” right?

        • Kai

          LoL, right. My bad. Sorry about that.

  • Observer

    Criticise the commemoration of the 3000 victims of 9/11: you f***ing terrorist burn in hell!!!

    Criticise the commemoration of the 300 000 victims of Nanjing: Great comment! Support free Tibet! Remember Tiananmen! Down with the CCP! etc. etc…

    There is no doubt that the CCP is biased, and that it has made many Chines biased too, but the sad thing is that most people pointing this out do not realise of their very own bias to begin with…

    No matter who you are, this is an incredible tragedy in human history. Unless you just feel like spitting on the face of your humanity, then please feel some respect and refrain from trolling.

  • Intranet

    @Rick in China
    1. Did you even read the ICJ report? The ICJ report conducted in the 1960s (which admitted was based only on prima facie evidence) describes CULTURAL genocide. It was not POPULATION GENOCIDE – aka “real genocide.”
    During the 60s and Cultural Revolution, the Chinese did destroy a lot of Buddhist monasteries – but they did that EVERYWHERE in the country, not just in Tibet. Yes, the Chinese did kill Tibetans during the CIA-backed ARMED UPRISING of 1959, but that was collateral damage from what was basically a civil war. They were not going around slaughtering random civilians like the Japanese did in Nanking. There’s an important distinction there.

    To call Tibet a genocide is ridiculous and really demeans the meaning of that word.

    2. Japan didn’t invade Tibet mid century. What are you talking about? The PRC invaded it to reclaim sovereignty after Tibet declared independence during the Chinese Civil War after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.

    3. The population of Tibet was around 2-3 million according to PRC census. The Tibet government itself claimed its population didn’t exceed 3 million in its appeal to the UN. The Tibet-in-Exile government later made up fictitious population numbers by increasing it to 6 million to fabricate and drum up the number of “deaths” to accuse the Chinese of genocide. The current population of ethnic Tibetans is around 6.5 million according to Census. Which means the ethnic Tibetan population has increased by 2x-3x according to CREDIBLE sources from national census…not your bogus Tibet-in-Exile groups who use fabrications to demonize the CCP at every turn.

    Read here: “A History of Modern Tibet: The calm before the storm, 1951-1955″ By Melvyn C. Goldstein page. 90

    On page 90, the Tibetan government itself states its population as less than 3 million in the 1950s during a UN petition.

  • Feiniaozy

    What does the memorial day have to do with all your unrelated CCP/Mao/Tibetan shit?

    • YourSupremeCommander

      Cause that’s the ONLY comeback these idiots have.

    • Paulos

      The basic gist of all those comments is that it’s hypocritical to demand transparency from others while obfuscating one’s own improprieties.

      My 2¢: It may seem like a tu quoque, but I don’t think anyone is bringing up these things in order to discredit the Nanjing Massacre (at least I hope not). To me, it seems mostly about wanting to raise awareness about tragedies like the Siege of Changchun that also deserve to be commemorated. What was your interpretation?

  • Aussie D

    And what about The Siege of Changchun (simplified Chinese: 长春围困战; traditional Chinese: 長春圍困戰; pinyin: Chángchūn Wéikùnzhàn) was a siege operation launched by the People’s Liberation Army during the Chinese Civil War against the city of Changchun, defended by the Nationalist forces. The Siege of Changchun was part of the Liaoshen Campaign, and the fall of Changchun marked the end of its first stage.

    Large numbers of civilians starved in the siege; estimates range from 150,000[4] to 330,000.[1] The besieging Communist forces allowed Nationalist soldiers to leave, but forcibly prevented civilians from doing so, hoping to pressure General Zheng Dongguo (Chinese: 鄭洞國; pinyin: Zhèng Dòngguó), leader of the Nationalist forces, into surrender.

    The incident was reported in a book published by the People’s Liberation Army Publishing House in August 1989, two months after the Tiananmen Square incident. White Snow, Red Blood, by Lieutenant Colonel Zhang Zhenglu, stated that 150,000 civilians starved to death during the siege, and that civilians attempting to leave the city were turned back to put pressure on the KMT garrison’s food supply. Lt. Col. Zhang opined that the Chinese Revolution was “not worth the cost”, and praised Lin Biao’s military skills as “superior to Mao Zedong’s”.[4]

    http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%95%BF%E6%98%A5%E5%9B%B4%E5%9B%B0%E6%88%98

  • grand

    that’s already proved to be a lie and anti-CCP propaganda. even the CIA admitted there is no “millions of deaths”.

    http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/89801/DOC_0001098172.pdf

    • Guest

      Propaganda? The only matter of dispute is how many Chinese people actually perished, with estimates ranging from 20 million to 40 million. But if there is one lesson to be learned from history, it has to be that there can be no crime which is too big to be denied by some. You are in good company with the revisionist Japanese right-wing crackpots who claim that there was no massacre in Nanjing, but only a few unfortunate incidents.

    • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

      “If the Party could thrust its hand into the past and say this or that even, it never happened—that, surely, was more terrifying than mere torture and death.”

      -Orwell

  • Kai

    http://www.patreon.com/chinasmack

    Not sure why it doesn’t work for you.

    “Did we cover them all” was my tongue-in-cheek way of pointing out that CCTV has done these sort of “memorial” posts A LOT (click the links for our past coverage of them) this year.

    It was NOT to suggest I didn’t translate certain comments. In fact, I translated comments that I believe come from suspicious user accounts (first and third especially). Despite me having doubts about their legitimacy, I still translated them because they nonetheless reflect something about the Chinese internet and comments/upvoting on Weibo.

    And no, we’re not blackmailing users into joining our crowdfunding campaign in order to get “full” content. However, it remains true that if we cannot sever our reliance on advertisers, they will necessarily impact what sort of content we can cover regardless of their legitimacy as trending content on the Chinese internet.

  • Probotector

    “The sooner mianzi becomes a lost cultural fart, the better.”

    Never gonna happen

    • Alex Dương

      Because it’s part of human nature. Look at you: you couldn’t even take a joke from The Simpsons about the British without feeling offended.

  • Probotector

    Chinese don’t care about hypocrisy. They just care about getting what they want.

  • Kai

    While Xinhua is state media, it still isn’t smart to equate a single editorial from it as representing all of China or even its government.

    Xinhua has published plenty of editorials that conflict with each other. This is because Xinhua is an diversity of people who sometimes create propaganda as ordered by their superiors but most of the time simply create content that their superiors at that moment in time and at that level of attention simply don’t care enough about to object to.

    Xinhua editorials MAY be significant but they are also often no more significant than any other editorial in any other independent media anywhere else in the world.

    I’m just trying to pull you back from the edge here.

  • Karze

    1.2 million Tibetans killed by Chinese and Tibet land stolen by Chinese. Chinese still continue to kill innocent Tibetans. Yet Chinese call their massacre in Tibet “liberation and progress”.

    In fact its not the Japanese but the Mao who was responsible for death of more Chinese than any foreign invaders ever did.

    • Alex Dương

      @rickinchina:disqus , you see, I wasn’t straw manning Tibetan exile activists when I referred to and dismissed the “1.2 million” claim. They ring the bell all the time, and they have no facts to back up the claim.

  • Rozu

    Why can’t people just be allowed to mourn and commemorate without someone point out some other event for them to acknowledge as well. Would you care as much about someone who’s close to you by blood or nationality as people who are not?

    Yes, there are many atrocities brushed away because it doesn’t sit well with those in power, but it has nothing to do with the victims and their remaining children/relatives who just happen to have a PC grievance at this time where they live. We’re all pawns of someone else’s agenda if we only fight with each other.

    If you’re not happy with a particular govt, then instead of rubbing salt in someone else’s grief, become someone who has the power and or gut to directly challenge (like many others) those who perpetrates the attrocities/actions that seems to be more important to you, instead of arguing with those who’re powerless to change or asking them to risk their lives to change a system for you.

  • Paulos

    The Nanjing Massacre was a colossal human tragedy that demands solemn and constructive remembrance. The imagery and catchphrases being propagated by CCTV are neither. They are highly inflammatory and completely obstructive to the healing process.

    *The following images ARE NOT comparisons to other historical incidents. They are intended only as examples of what I feel to be more appropriate decorum:

    http://files.coloribus.com/files/adsarchive/part_805/8055005/file/holocaust-commemoration-remembrance-and-beyond-small-34969.jpg

    http://www.wku.edu/alive/images/we_remember_911.jpg

    • guest

      Well said.

      • Paulos

        Thank you.

    • Xia

      Remember 9/11, reflect on civil rights and pass PATRIOT Act, serve your country in Iraq and Afghanistan…

      • Paulos

        I’m sorry you took offense to my post. It was not intended to antagonize, nor was it written as an invitation to exchange political platitudes. I apologize for the lack of clarity.

        • Xia

          I did not take offense, just barraging you with my usual load of cynicism.

          • Paulos

            Ha, fair enough.

  • Dr Sun

    I wonder when there will be memorial built for the 40 plus million that died (got murdered/starved to death and executed) during the “great leap” and “cultural revolution”.
    I look forward with eager anticipation to the spin CCTV will put on those events in order to blame the Japanese or the U.S

    • YourSupremeCommander

      They blame Dr Sun. End of story.

      • Rafasa Arandas

        Actually, Sun is fairly respected on both sides of the Taiwan strait.

  • FYIADragoon

    Good luck being an actual patriot and refusing Japanese products. Japanese make a ton of the components in Apple products.

    • Alex Dương

      Excellent point.

    • 42

      Majority of components in Apple products are from Koreas Samsung or Taiwanese manufacturers. That leads to the interesting fact that Apple is not innovative at all and steals ideas and just merely put existing technologies together. The same way some Chinese manufacturers are doing, but chinese get loads of critizism for it.

      • FYIADragoon

        That actually depends on whether you’re using a metric based on dollar value of components or actual makeup of the machine. Mine is based on dollar value, and I haven’t checked on how much the i6 uses from Japan, so I suppose I could be off by a little (Apple never makes radical switches of their entire supply chain between machines). Congratulations on being enlightened. Apple is not an innovative company, they are just a “cool” company, as even the original iPhone was just a redesign of the products of previous companies. It was not the first simple to use smartphone.

      • Kai

        Meh, that’s not entirely fair. How to combine and present various ideas or existing technology is innovation as well. A lot of these components are indeed sourced from Korean or Taiwanese manufacturers but often these components are made according to Apple’s specifications and wouldn’t exist in their form or function without Apple being the demand for them.

        While I think Chinese manufacturers don’t get enough credit for their innovations, they can’t really deny that a lot of the criticism they get is indeed warranted. Fair would be to recognize both.

  • Ruaraidh

    From the article: ‘There was no Tiananmen Square massacre, but there was a Beijing massacre.’

    • guest

      Its like the Battle of Bunker Hill,

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill

      The major fighting didn’t take place on the hill, but on an adjacent hill, Breed’s, hill, but Bunker Hill was the objective.

      Its the same with “Tiananmen Square massacre” no massacre occurred inside the square, however, people were killed and wounded around it and on the roads leading to it, it was also the objective of both the troops and the protesters. One with orders to clear it, the other with plans to stay as long as possible.

  • 42

    Great Leap was in the course of 3 years, for which people werent deliberately executed, and there was no massive or systematically rape going on, and no ethnic cleansing activities or genocide took place. Nanking massacre was 300.000 deaths within 1 month.

    Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges…..

  • 白色纯棉小裤裤

    Because there is a Chinese idiom called “疏不间亲” ,

    lets say there are three persons A, B and C, if the relationship between B and C is closer than the relationship between A and B, then A should not say bad things about C to B. If A does so, he is considered impolite and uneducated.

    This rule does not only apply to foreigners, if a Chinese guy says bad things to his friend about his friend’s family member, his friend would also get mad at him.

  • Bluex

    Communist party killed more of their own people than Japanese. Too bad the propaganda only perpetuate the godlike myths of the great leaders at that time while destroying any evidence that may disgrace them.

  • bujiebuke

    The threads in this article have gotten deeper than Kim Kardashian’s ass. I can’t even find the one’s that I wanted to comment on anymore.

    • Kai

      Heh, you just have to press the “load more comments” button until no more will load. Then all of them will be displayed for you to find the ones you’re looking for.

      Alternatively, you can check your personal inbox by clicking the red numbered icon next to your name at the top-right corner of the comments section, if you just want to jump the comments made in reply to you. Granted, you may already be receiving email notifications that you can click through directly for that.

      Disregard my tips if you already knew them and just wanted to humorously liken the amount of comments to Kardashian’s ass.

      • bujiebuke

        Yeah… I was looking for one specific comment (not mine) that I wanted to respond to but didn’t have time earlier. I’m aware of the disqus tools too. I guess I just wanted to take a cheap shot at Kimmy ;)

        Oh btw. I’m really curious which stories you guys had to take down in order to appease some of your advertisers. You can email me if you don’t feel like making it public.

  • Rafasa Arandas

    Sigh…seriously, I hope that at least overseas Chinese people do not grow up to blindly hate Japan…do they?

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