Police: Youth in Bus Seat Dispute Liable for Old Man’s Death

Paramedics attempt to save the elderly man who suddenly collapsed on a public bus after an argument with a young man over a bus seat.

Paramedics attempt to save the elderly man who suddenly collapsed on a public bus after an argument with a young man over a bus seat.

The two most-discussed articles on Chinese web portal NetEase currently are both about the story we translated a few days ago about an elderly man who suddenly died after an argument with a young man who did not give up his seat for him on a public bus. Below is one of the articles that relates new developments and information…

From NetEase:

Youth Who Had Conflict With Elderly Person Over Giving Up Bus Seat Found

“The elderly person suddenly collapsed, and never came to again”

Over 50 elderly persons raised signs at public bus stops exhorting:

“Young people have a lot of pressure, please give them your seats if you can”

On September 9th, a nearly 70-year-old elderly person had an argument and physical altercation with a young man over the giving up of a seat on a public bus, after which the elderly person collapsed never to come to again. Just what exactly happened at the time? This paper’s recent reporting attracted attention from all walks of life, with hopes that the young man involved and eyewitness passengers would cooperate with the police to uncover the truth of what happened. Late night on the 10th, the young man turned up.

Yesterday morning, around 50 elderly volunteers of the Sunset Red Volunteer Group appeared at public bus stops to advocate: Please give up your seats for young people if you can, “because young people these days have too much pressure at work and in their lives, are too tired, so let’s give them a bit of time [on the bus] to rest!” Netizens also heatedly debated whether or not young people should give up their seats for the elderly, handicapped, or pregnant. This paper conducted an investigation into the giving up of seats on eight public buses. Text/photos: Zhengzhou Evening News chief reporter Xu Fuying

Developments

Young man involved found

Yesterday at 4pm, this reporter learned from the the Jianshe Road Public Security Sub-Bureau Criminal Investigation Unit that the young man who clashed with the elderly person has been found.

“Multiple police officers without rest studied surveillance footage and ultimately obtained a clear photo of the young person and by following his direction of movement, eventually found him at his school at 10pm on the night of September 10th,” said a police officer involved in the case. Afterward, the young man came to the police station to cooperate with the investigation, and according to his testimony, him and the elderly person indeed had a dispute over a bus seat.

“He is a university student, a non-local, 20 years old, and had boarded the 919 Route public bus at the Jinshui Road and Minhang Road bus stop, originally with the intention of riding the bus to the terminal stop near his school at Zhongyuan Road Third Ring West,” said the police officer. The elderly person probably boarded the bus near the Jianshe Road and Songshan Road intersection, and had the argument with the young man at the Jianshe Road and Wenhuagong Road intersection.

“The two argued and had a physical altercation, got off the bus to have another physical altercation, and then both got back on the bus. Worried that an argument would happen again, passengers urged the young man to get off the bus early before reaching his stop, so the young man got off at near Tongbai Road and Shichang Street,” said the police officer. The exact time the elderly person fainted is still undergoing investigation. “Because the young person and the elderly person had a physical altercation, the young person bears some responsibility for the elderly person’s sudden death. There’s still about five days before we’ll get the autopsy report.”

Yesterday at 5:30pm, this reporter arrived at the Jianshe Road Public Security Sub-Bureau Second Intermediate Criminal Investigation Unit hoping to see the college student, but up till 6:20, the college student was in interrogation with police officers saying he would not be able to meet with reporters.

chinese-elderly-promote-giving-up-seats-for-young-people

Advocacy

Elderly people in their 80s raise signs proposing that seats be given up for young people

Yesterday at 2:30pm, in front of the Wenhuagong Road and Jianshe Road intersection 919 Route public bus stop, three elderly persons over the age of 80 held “The elderly should give up their seats to young people” signs, promoting it to any elderly person passing buy. They were all members of the Zhengzhou Sunset Red Volunteer Group.

Seven years ago, they started this advocacy. “The tragedy on the 9th should not have happened on a Zhengzhou public bus at all, because Zhengzhou public bus riders should be very civilized,” said Liang Yongxiang. These days, young people have a lot of stress in their lives and work. Having to go out early and return home late, it’s extremely tiring. Some have elderly and children to take care of, so their lives aren’t easy, whereas the majority of elderly people are retired and have it relatively easy. We want the elderly to avoid taking the bus during rush hour, and even more to avoid arguing over seats with the young during these times. “Some elderly people who buy groceries and only ride the bus for a stop insist on doing so during rush hour, which is really wrong. Some just ride the public bus in circles [for the air conditioning] because the weather is hot, which is even more wrong. Of course, the majority of elderly people are still the self-disciplined [conscientious].”

Elderly Li Decheng says that if elderly people want the young to respect them, they should first take care of the young. “You should treat young passengers like your own children. Only when everyone respects the elderly and cherishes the young will society be harmonious.”

Yesterday, there were over 50 elderly people who participated in the Sunset Red Volunteer Group’s advocacy activity.

Observations

This reporter rode the Zhengzhou public bus eight times to observe

Yesterday at 11:30am, this reporter followed an old lady in boarding the 60 Route public bus at the Zhongyuan Road and Gongren Road intersection.

Inside the bus, the seats reserved for the elderly, handicapped, and pregnant did not actually have many special-needs passengers seated in them. This reporter noticed a youth in one of the reserved seats, listening to music, who upon seeing the old lady, immediately pulled out his earplugs, got up, and gave the seat to the old lady.

As the bus reached the Jingguang Road intersection, another old lady boarded, and a girl stood up to give up her seat, but the old lady smiled and declined. “I’m only riding for two stops, dear, so you sit, thank you!”

Then, this reporter boarded the 62 Route public bus at Zijingshan Road heading towards Qiche South Road, which had more passengers on board. An old grandfather boarded at the same time as this reporter. When the bus’s pre-recorded prompt to give up one’s seat for the elderly sounded, no one rose to give up their seat. The elderly man stood next to one of the reserved seats, where a young man appeared to be napping, his eyes closed. When the bus reached Hanghai Road and the upcoming stop was announced, this young man immediately got up and got off. Turns out he wasn’t sleeping. It wasn’t until then that the elderly person had a seat to sit in.

At around 1pm, this reporter boarded the 9 Route public bus at Longhai West Road. At this time, there were already no more seats available on the bus. Two grey-haired elderly boarded the bus at the Jianshe Road Bishagang Park stop, and just as they got on, a girl that was sitting in one of the non-reserved seats in the very front row immediately stood up to let one of the elderly sit, while a girl in one of the reserved seats rushed to stand up as well, helping the other elderly person sit down. This reporter rode the bus for nine stops. Every stop where elderly people boarded, there were passengers who gave up their seats. A Mr. Huang who regularly takes this bus says the 9 Route is the “People’s Militia Route”, the bus route with the longest history in Zhengzhou. “The frequency of giving up seats on this bus is very high. I’ve never heard of there being a fight over a seat on this bus route.”

Yesterday, this reporter made eight trips on the 9, 102, 37, and 66 routes. About 90% of the time, young passengers gave up their seat for the elderly.

Investigation

Top three reasons for not giving up one’s seat:

Not feeling well, too tired from work, the elderly person is healthy/robust

According to Yang Yuxiang of the public transportation company, every public bus has pre-recorded prompts to give up seats for the elderly, handicapped, or pregnant on the bus stop announcement system. The company requires the driver to play the prompts upon seeing a special-needs passenger get on board. “Zhengzhou Public Transportation leads the country in the giving up of seats. In 2010, the ‘building a model city’ findings publicized by the National Statistics Bureau Zhengzhou Investigation Team showed: among 14 bus routes observed, there was only one route where the phenomenon of not giving up one’s seat was observed. This was reported throughout the nation at the time. This is one of the things Zhengzhou Public Transportation prides itself on.”

Investigations at the time revealed that around 93% of young people interviewed said they proactively give up their seats when encountering elderly, pregnant, or handicapped people. 70.40% of interviewees have encountered situations where “someone voluntarily gave up their seat but the elderly person gracefully declined with thanks out of consideration for the young person”. Only 18.24% have encountered the elderly asking young people to give up their seat. Simultaneously, over 3000 interviews openly said there have been situations where they didn’t give up their seats, with the top three reasons being: not feeling well, too tired from work, and the elderly person looked physically healthy/robust. “The frequency of giving up seats nowadays would not be lower than in 2010,” said Yang Yuxiang. As of 2008 March, the “Zhengzhou City Municipal Public Transportation Regulations (Draft)” has had a provision that the bus driver can refuse carrying a passenger who does not give up their seat for the elderly, handicapped, or pregnant, and that the municipal public transportation administration department can also fine that passenger 50 yuan. “This is a local statute, and usually difficult to enforce, so giving up seats relies on people’s own initiative/conscientiousness.”

During the interview, one bus driver spoke frankly that what happened on the 919 Route is not unrelated to the high rate of giving up seats in Zhengzhou and the overly high expectations of the elderly.

Grumblings

“南来北往”: When respecting the old and caring for the young, don’t forget those who are not related to you. Only when young people know to respect and treat well the elderly, and the elderly empathize and care for the young, can this society be even more harmonious and beautiful.

“满满星”: Sometimes young people not giving up their seats doesn’t mean they are immoral. They may have a very good personal reason! Some illnesses are not immediately visible on the outside. Do young people who are sick need to carry around their diagnoses in order to sit in their seats with a clear conscience?

“小草”: Respecting the elderly and caring for the young is one of our virtues. When I was 3-months pregnant, it wasn’t obvious to others. That day, I was feel really unwell, and an elderly person stood right next to me. Although she didn’t say anything, I knew she wanted me to give up my seat for her. It’s not that I didn’t want to, but I needed the seat more at the time, and trusted that the elderly person would understand.

“呼啸”: I’m 40 years old this year. Every time I’m sitting in my seat, as long as an elderly person gets on board, I’ll definitely give up my seat for them. I’ve done this for over 20 years now, because we will all be old one day.

Author: Xu Fuying

Comments from NetEase:

dfdx12138 [网易广东省揭阳市网友]:

1. The seats on public transportation are for anyone to sit in.
2. Healthy young people voluntarily giving up their seats for the elderly is a virtue, and worth promoting.
3. Young people are not obligated to give up their seats for the elderly, and not voluntarily giving up their seats is not a crime.
4. Elderly people do not have the right to demand that young people give up their seats.
5. Elderly people hitting people is a crime.
6. When a young person is assaulted, they can use reasonable self-defense under the law.
7. The elderly person hit the young person, the young person did not hit back. The old man suddenly died afterward. The young person should not bear any legal liability for the old man’s death (let me use an example here: an old man sees someone on the street, wondering how this person dares going out when they look so ugly, and so charges up and slaps the person four times. This person silent walks away, but is still on the street. The old man thinks that person has been hit but still won’t go home, gets increasingly angry, and then suddenly dies. Should the person who was hit bear legal responsibility?)

造梦者Dreamer [网易吉林省延边州手机网友]:

No comments? He bear no fucking responsibility. This was an old man who did not deserve respect. So when we get older, we can just do whatever we please?

静静静静的爱 [网易四川省成都市手机网友]:

Poor kid, was slapped four times and now has to bear responsibility, it truly feels like The Injustice of Dou E.

5毛杂碎地上跪 [网易江苏省南京市手机网友]:

The damn old thing that refuses to die actually died from anger, truly fucking deserved it!

网易广东省手机网友 ip:122.13.*.*

He bears responsibility for this? Isn’t this bullshit?

e07caa42111b3468a9fb4413 [网易湖南省常德市手机网友]:

The characters of young people in this modern day and age are indeed somewhat poor. Most of the parents for this generation of [young] people had gone out to work [far away from home, did not have the time to teach/raise their children [were absentee parents], and the education system has completely neglected public morality/ethics education, so internet comments totally reveal this generation of people’s selfishness, unreasonableness, even complete irrationality.

网易上海市手机网友 ip:180.171.*.*

Can’t believe there are this many people supporting the young person. People these days sure are selfish. The young person should have generously given up his seat. Then the conflict wouldn’t have happened. Standing up a little won’t kill you. Every time I’m on the bus and see an elderly person board, some people will avert their eyes pretending to be watching the passing scenery. Seeing this disgusts me. Some elderly people will stay silent, and there are those who will sometimes ask that the seat be given up for them.

网易安徽省蚌埠市手机网友 ip:36.57.*.*

Dusk, a road, a public bus.
People, men, two men, one old, one young, face to face.
Silence, a very long silence.
The two people, like statues, in confrontation, as the sun went down.

“You, get up, I want to sit,” the old man finally broke the silence.
“I will not,” the youth said, without hesitation, word by word.
The old man’s body looked as if it had been hit by these three words.
The old man muttered to himself, then slowly said: “Then what will it take for you to give up your seat?”
“Nothing,” again without the slightest hesitation.
The color in the old man’s face had already changed: “You know, no one has ever dared not give up their seat for me.”
“I don’t know!”

The old man glared at the person in front of him. He was very young, but his eyes, they were forgettable, tranquil like the night, deep like the ocean.
He knew that the youth before him was no ordinary person, but he also knew that he would never allow anyone to not give up their seat for him.
And around them, it was still very quiet, quiet like death.

The setting sun was gradually disappearing under the horizon, and as he looked at the distant setting sun, he felt an indescribable fear.
He laughed bitterly: “You certain you won’t give up your seat for me today?”
“Certain!”
“What if I insist on sitting here?”
“You can try!”
Silence, silence like death.

Suddenly, the air moved, the old man had struck! Smack smack smack smack! Just like that, four slaps landed on the youth’s face! No one saw the four slaps, because these four slaps were too fast, unbelievably fast, horrifically fast. There is probably no one else in under the heavens who could throw slaps so fast.
That youth did not look as if he had tried dodging, nor did he try blocking them. He simply sat there, as before, still and calm.

A little while later, the youth stood up and walked towards the bus door.
I’ve won this battle, the old man thought to himself, completely and thoroughly, and a look of smug self-satisfaction flashed across the old man’s face.
With his back to him, without even turning his head around, the youth said: “Do you really think you beat me?”
The old man’s body body trembled slightly.
“Obviously, I’m about to sit down.”
“Indeed.”
“Then how have I not beaten you?”
“Too bad you overlooked one thing.”

The old man suddenly looked at the youth, as a muscle on his face twitched, as if he had suddenly realized something, but too late.
At this moment, the old one’s body fell, heavily. His heart had stopped beating, never to beat again!
Without looking back, the youth chuckled, saying: “I’m home~!”

The second article merely asks netizens whether or not the young person should be held liable for the old man’s death…

Comments from NetEase:

网易上海市手机网友 ip:140.206.*.*

[He] bears fuck all liability.

一直学习的农民工 [网易北京市手机网友]:

He was hit and instead bears responsibility? What kind of world is this?

时尚的千年老妖 [网易广东省深圳市手机网友]:

He was assaulted and has to pay compensation, is there any justice in this world left?

网易黑龙江省哈尔滨市手机网友 ip:221.207.*.*

What kind of bandit logic is this? [The old man] has a temper problem and it’s blamed on others?

网易湖北省宜昌市手机网友 ip:183.93.*.*

Some elderly people exploit their old age.

szskliuc [网易上海市手机网友]:

I’ve never seen people give up their seats for the elderly in Hong Kong. A lot of countries and places directly mark seats as reserved for the elderly, handicapped, or pregnant, and people normally won’t go sit in them.

117820433 [网易云南省保山市手机网友]:

Allow me to educate everyone. If someone dies, then it becomes a criminal matter. In determining whether or not someone has commit a crime, there are three factors to consider: actus reus + illegality + liability. This young guy’s actions do not constitute an objective element of causation in criminal law, and thus does not constitute a crime at all. However, civil liability depends on the details of the case. But, in our country, even if the elderly person provoked the incident, it is life on one hand and morality on the other. From the perspective of the law, life is more important, so the young guy probably has to pay compensation in the civil case, but it won’t be a lot. It depends on whether or not the old man’s family is willing to settle. If not, then it depends on the judge’s professional integrity.

3022cae0e542e493c95c2a41 [网易天津市手机网友]:

Through this matter, I personally believe this is something caused by a lack of morals in present society, of people thinking they deserve this, should enjoy that, as long as one is happy, not putting oneself in other people’s shoes to consider things, one’s interests/benefit above all else. This problem should be dealt with at the root, so that people can truly become part of society, instead of being just by themselves.

网易河北省保定市手机网友 ip:111.225.*.*

And he’s supposed to be a college student, bullshit, he doesn’t even know to respect the elderly and care for the young! When I as pregnant and rode the public bus, no one gave up their seat for me either. Only after standing for two stops and someone finally got off did I finally get a seat. After a while, a white-haired old lady boarded and again, no one gave up their seat. After watching her sway back and forth standing there as the bus drove, I finally gave up my seat for her. Those healthy and able bodied people should be ashamed of themselves!

xietielong [网易陕西省西安市手机网友]:

Not responsible, not responsible for this kind of karmic retribution.

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  • da_shan223

    Why are not giving-up-a-bus seat issues surfacing more and more in ChinaSmack news? Some sort of eastern Rosa Parks reboot?

    • Ken Morgan

      It’s a similar situation. In China older people for some reason are to be respected and treated as a higher class of person. Just because they happen to be old.

      As with Rosa, some people are starting to question WHY should I give up my seat, consequently the wider question of why is automatic respect given to elders, similar to why should people give up their seats to whites.

      • da_shan223

        mostly joking, ken. it’s not hard for me to fathom why people would give up their seats to the elderly. if we live long enough, i think we will all reach an age where just standing for a length of time is a chore.

    • SongYii

      CS follows popular stories. Better to ask why these issues keep surfacing on chinese news.

  • wk

    this would never happen in Taiwan

    • Tianzi

      True, the kid might stab the old man if this were in Taiwan, or call 50 of his mafia buddies to come beat the old the guy to death.

  • firebert5

    So, the article is not very clear. Did the old man follow the young guy to continue the argument, or the other way around, or did they just happen to need to take the exact same buses (not out of the ordinary in my experience)?

  • AbC

    The comments by: “网易安徽省蚌埠市手机网友 ip:36.57.* ” was classic. Great job with the interpretation as well.

  • mr.wiener

    I honestly don’t see where they are able to charge him. He broke no laws, committed no assault. This is some BS kneejerking by the authorities that will be dropped as soon as this story leaves the interweb radar. He is guilty only of common or garden douchbagginess, which if it was an enforceable offence a large proportion of Chinese would be locked up everyday, not to mention many other people in many other countries.

    • Ken Morgan

      They might be hanging him out to dry because a lot of the CCP power base is contained in the older generations. In western countries the grey vote is the biggest voting power block and western government enact policies to keep their votes. While there is no voting in China old people have free time they gossip and spread malicious words. A Cheguan beating up a bunch of old people also looks REALLY bad. Old people in the UK had a protest and started chucking stuff at the cops. The cops did nothing as beating up old people looks bad.

      Many old aged pick pockets use a similar tactic in the UK, they steal from you when caught claim YOU are robbing them. As a result YOU get beaten up.

      • Slayer

        Lots of wisdom in these words. I live near the federal court in Xuhui and see protests by old people ALL OF THE TIME. They hold up posters that say things regarding to the seizure of their property and forced relocation to the outer ring, essentially breaking up the sense of community they now have. They used to constantly protest for the right for their kids to have a 2nd child (allowing them to be 2nd time grandparents!). These are all old Shanghainese – I find them brave. One time when engaging them I got this:

        “Hello, sir, let me quickly ask you a question.”
        “Sure, Laowai.”
        “Aren’t you afraid of those security guards with the stun gun sticks, maybe they’re going to harm you or take you to a labor camp? He just told you all to leave and warned you of the charge of disobeying police.”
        “Look – I’m 75, do you know how much I’ve endured in my life? There’s nothing they can do with those sticks that is worse than what I have been through. Let them send me to camp, I will break rocks for my rights.”

        Bad. Ass.

    • Jahar

      You speak like a person from a place where law is properly enforced and regulated. Australia, right? I’m sure they can charge him with something nonsensical, and find him guilty of it, whether there’s a law for it or not.

  • lacompacida

    So police will decide who is liable, not the courts ? Great rule by law in China.

    • Rick in China

      This type of thing will go to court. Unless the kid assaulted the old guy AND the assault rendered a provable injury as a result of his assault, it will be a civil case. In China, when the PSB indicates “holds some responsibility” or whatever, it means they will allow the case to pass to the procuratorate for investigation or the civil court with their statements to support the validity of the case.

      I’m guessing this is NOT a criminal ‘responsibility’, but they’re trying for some civil responsibility.. ie. they want some money from the student’s family. Ridiculous, yes, but not quite as direct as police behaving as judges.

      • Kai

        There’s also the issue of the police characterizing the incident as a “physical altercation” as opposed to a unilateral physical assault, presumably AFTER having questioned the young guy.

        • Rick in China

          Right. It leaves it ambiguous whether the old man unilaterally assaulted the younger guy, or whether there was physical blows back’n’forth to any extent – which was more clear in the initial article. “altercation” covers any scenario I suppose, but if the assault was *only* the man hitting the kid, I can’t see how even a civil case would succeed.. if the kid only refused to give up his seat, and took a beating, (and any words spoken are irrelevant) and that was truthfully the only extent of his involvement..the whole thing just seems ridiculous civil or criminal. If he did strike back, then I suppose even if it was in self-defence, there is a little more grounds for some sort of ‘partial’ responsibility.. but that would be tough.

          It’s china, some money will change hands, and it will be the end of it. The sad part is, if this kid is from a poor family and being a student himself, it’s not really justified in my mind since he seems ultimately like, even though he was a fucking asshole, he is going to have his life fucked up in some way because of a cranky old man — permanent damage not equal to the weight of his asshole-ishness.

          • Kai

            The other passengers said the kid didn’t fight back, so we’re left wondering why the police characterized it as an physical altercation that suggests both parties tangled.

            I’m with most people (I think most) in that I can’t see any real basis for much civil liability much less criminal liability based on the information we have so far.

            Unless I missed something, we don’t even have an account of what the young guy said in the whole thing, just that he refused to give up his seat. We’re more or less presuming he said something flippant or rude to have angered the old man into slapping him.

            Also, this part:

            两人发生争执和肢体冲突后,下车又发生肢体冲突,随后两人一起上车

            The two argued and had a physical altercation, got off the bus to have another physical altercation, and then both got back on the bus.

            What was this about? So they argued, actually “took it outside” for a moment, and then BOTH got back on? Heh, and the old guy didn’t grab the seat while the young guy was temporarily out of it?

            I’d be pretty annoyed if the cops are saying “physicaly altercation” when the kid did nothing physical at all. That would strike me as unnecessarily obfuscating the situation, possibly misrepresenting it. I’m hoping they know something we don’t and are trying to be fair.

          • Rick in China

            That’s right. “I can’t see any real basis for much civil liability much less criminal liability based on the information we have so far.” Me either… unless there is more to the ‘altercation’ than we know. Part of my point is that the initial article said it was a 1 sided assault, now it’s labelled an altercation, either the reporting and accounts weren’t giving the full story, or the police are intentionally keeping it ambiguous for some reason. It’s a shitty story. I just hope the kid doesn’t get fucked in the end, even though he deserves a little lesson in kindness himself.

          • Confucius

            The term “肢体冲突” that is translated as “physical altercation” is a common non-descriptive non-committal euphemism for any activity that involves one person touching another used by officials/officers/newspersons. It is rarely used in common day-to-day conversation. It is like saying “alleged” in front of every report of an assault/rape/crime – some people may argue, what’s so alleged about it, but that’s just the term for it.

      • simon

        I told you so.

  • twelveways

    I bought the last carton of milk yesterday, as I was paying for it an old woman asked if they have any more milk, to which the answer was ‘no’.

    Now I am worried that in her search for milk, the old lady might have been run over and I could be responsible for her death.

    Should I go into hiding?

    • Teacher in China

      This seems fun, let me try one :)

      I was on the street the other day when an old man stopped me and asked if I had a light. I gave him one. Later that day, he died of cancer.

      Should I go into hiding?

      • Zack Snyder

        I played with an old man’s cock.

        Should I go into hiding?

      • Paul Schoe

        definitely

    • Slayer

      I held a door in my apartment building open so that an elderly lady neighbor could pass through safely without it swinging shut and smacking into her. She then walked past me and got into the first available taxi outside before I could. That taxi then drove straight to Zhuhai with her as captive, and drove off a pier into the ocean. She’s fucking dead.

      #shouldigointohiding?

  • vonskippy

    Watching China is like watching 4 year olds pretending to be grown ups. Only in China does the guy that GOT assaulted get accused of committing a crime.

    Respect is earned, not automatic. Let me know when you see old people in China doing something nice for young people, and I’ll change my tune, until then, all the righteous old people can take a flying leap.

    • Respect is earned, not automatic – so true!

    • da_shan223

      I don’t know. Let’s a say a wife slaps her husband and the husband grabs her arm leaving a red mark…see what happens in the US when the police arrive.

    • NeverMind

      Similar to some non-Chinese countries where disciplining your own kids is a crime, I guess.

      • hess

        How is punching a young man and then dropping dead in any way related to beating your kids being illegal in other countries?

        • NeverMind

          Similar, in terms of countries having certain peculiar laws or legal rulings. It was in reply to ‘Only in China…’ One could easily say something like ‘Only in America can people get compensated for dropping hot coffee on their own lap. Are all Americans 4 year olds?’ Not that I think they are, just giving an example of how weird things could get in the legal world.

          • donscarletti

            Still drawing a long bow here I’m afraid. Although marginally more topical to mention American compensation cases than discipline cases.

            The point is still, it’s a different set of issues and you are blatantly trying to change the topic in order to harm the discussion.

            Does the American justice system have serious problems? Yes. Are they related to this bus case? No. Are they related to China? No. Was this ever a comparison between China and America? No.

          • Kai

            His intent isn’t really to compare and argue equivalence between issues/problems in different countries, but to criticize the hasty generalization vonskippy made. He’s annoyed by it and is using a different one to highlight it. It’s like responding to a negative generalization a Chinese person makes about Americans by making one about Chinese. It’s attempting to give others a taste of their own medicine.

          • NeverMind

            Thank You, that’s exactly what I wanted to do/say. I am just protesting the blatant generalisations made against the Chinese people by some commenters on this site. I am not a Chinese myself, but look at such comments as being unfair. My reaction is similar even when other nationalities are targeted by haters.

          • donscarletti

            What you said makes it sound much worse. So it’s more about sinking down to other people’s level and doing the exact same thing that one is protesting oneself.

            In the scenario that you proposed, can you really possibly believe Chinese upon hearing themselves generalised and insulted by Americans are going to be filled with the realisation that they are doing such things themselves, abandon nationalist ranting and embrace the world in warm brotherhood?

            This has never been the way humans have responded to being insulted and using such rhetorical techniques serve no purpose but to galvanise those on both sides and fuel the fires of anger and discord.

            When an unfair generalisation is made one should refute it, rather than descend into mud slinging, especially since I suspect NeverMind is no more Chinese than I am American.

          • Kai

            No, sinking down to another person’s level is if you do the same thing for the same reasons. He’s not doing the same thing for the same reason; he’s doing the same thing to criticize that very thing.

            Yes, I can really possibly believe that SOME Chinese will realize their own hasty generalizations if I point it out by turning a hasty generalization back upon them. I’ve done and do it all the time as a tool of rhetoric. It doesn’t work with everyone, at which point you reiterate or try another approach.

            Of course it has been A way humans have responded to being insulted, and such rhetorical techniques serve plenty of purpose. Why else would they exist?

            It seems you’re mixing up “holding up a mirror” with “fighting fire with fire”. I understand you and hess thought NeverMind was trying to compare and argue equivalence, and that’s why you guys think it is “fighting fire with fire”, but like I said, I don’t think that’s what he’s trying to do, especially after this comment, and he’s said so.

            I’m with you on the idiocy of fighting fire with fire. I just don’t think that’s what he intended to do, as his subsequent comments make clear.

            We’ve got tons of unfair generalizations on cS everyday. Let’s all do our part to refute them.

      • rarkmobinson

        Discipline or inflicting physical pain?

  • christina

    Geez louise the guilt he must feel from knowing he had a part in the old man dying is enough. He’s not criminal- selfish, maybe, but if that were a crime the whole world would be in jail at age 2.

    • King Kong

      If the old man was polite when asking for the seat none of this would have happened..i bet any money he would have got worked up from the start and started yelling at this guy to give up his seat..i too would have NOT given up my seat to a rude person no matter their age.

  • Amused

    Ok, I give up. Everything here is about as backwards as it can be. This truly is the “Land that time forgot”(and justice too).

  • LOLs, the English translation of the “Dusk, a road, a public bus.” is sooooo CLASSIC!!!

  • ClausRasmussen

    I am impressed by the Chinese newspaper article. Really throughout investigation by the journalist

  • Charles

    Still wondering – when will China get a decent legal system? Perhaps never.

  • Charles

    Confucius… do you live in China? This is a very accurate way of describing life here. Of course it exaggerates the point – but the point is still valid.

    I don’t know if it is because of the education system or the culture, or what, but I could easily give you 25 examples to prove this point. I’ll start by giving you one – The most basic element of being adult is taking responsibility for your actions.

    I am living in an apartment that I just had checked for formaldehyde contamination – two independent companies confirmed that there is a dangerous level of formaldehyde gas in this apartment (leaving aside for the moment the fact that you can’t trust anyone in China and both of these companies could easily be lying to me.)

    Now here we have at least two examples of blatant childish irresponsibility and stupidity. First the furniture manufacturers are producing poisonous furniture – and according to most people I have spoken to about this – everyone knows this and accepts it!!! The government doesn’t do anything about – the seller who is making people sick and probably causing cancer in many of his costumers doesn’t care about the problem… This leads to another very “Chinese” intellectual problem – the idea that if you can’t see a danger today, there is no danger.

    Then add to this the fact that my landlord thinks it’s totally fine to rent a contaminated apartment! His solution to this problem is a very “intelligent” “just open the windows…”

    I could keep going – but it makes me want to cry. I love China but living here drives you mad… little by little. Just when you have accepted some irrational absurd situation that you would have never accepted in any “first world country” — another one comes along. So you either stick your head in the sand or start becoming racist against Chinese people.

    • Confucius

      Charles, have you only lived in China? Or do you have little experience of the other societies/countries you are placing your relative values on? What you are complaining about – irresponsible behaviour, lack of morality/ethics, no thought for consequences – are all endemic in every society and country, albeit it less media-friendly forms.

      Btw, maturity – that is, ‘like 4 year olds’ – is different from not having even knowledge about something. Many people here in the UK live with mould in the house which causes respiratory problems stemming from line-drying clothes indoors. You can’t just open the windows and let the fresh air in. I don’t say that these people are ‘like 4 year olds’. Perhaps your problem is having a bias against the Chinese and not having enough experience and knowledge to challenge that bias. The latter is difficult to change quickly, but the former you can try to give the Chinese the benefit of the doubt all the time and see if it helps with your sense of irritation and frustration. You may find that the Chinese are neither more or less evil, corrupt, inferior, immature, violent, loud, ignorant, nationalistic or brainwashed as the societies/peoples you compare them to.

      • Charles

        I have only lived in two countries long-term, the US and China. I have traveled to other countries, but I am sure you are right that my thinking is a bit too polar. That said, this doesn’t nullify the points I made. I am sure there are many countries around the world where you can see people doing irresponsible things all day long. China just happens to be one of them. Formaldehyde gas in Chinese furniture (One of many other examples I could list here) is not a knowledge issue – if anything, Chinese people are more aware of this problem than people in other countries.

        As for the UK, I can’t comment on that, as no one I know of from a western country actually uses a clothes line to dry laundry any more. Suffice it to say there are morons in every country – and we can go further and be honest by saying that we will all do moronic things from time to time.

        I like your laundry list of adjectives – evil, corrupt, inferior, immature, violent, loud, ignorant, nationalistic or brainwashed – you may note that I didn’t use any of these terms and there is much that could be said on this point… but I digress again.

        Giving China the “benefit of the doubt” is equivalent to sticking one’s head in the sand. It isn’t OK that my landlord thinks it’s fine to poison me. It isn’t OK that Chinese manufacturers make poison furniture. It isn’t OK that this furniture is then sold, mostly to poor and middle class people (Because the rich can afford to buy insanely expensive real-wood furniture). These are things that ought to infuriate you. This is serious… as are many other examples I could give. We are talking about people’s lives here and not in some BS sentimentalist way, like those who say this young man should feel responsible for the elderly man’s death.

        It seems you want people to look down on China with racism of low expectations. In this regard you are much more bigoted than those you accuse of bias. China knows better. The manufactures, retailers, landlords and government all know better. Granted, I can only speak from my personal experience and my knowledge has limits. But to give these people the benefit of the doubt is much more racist than expecting rational thinking and responsible action.

        You may also note that I am not saying that the US is good and China is bad. I have lot’s of criticism to aim at my own country and a few areas where I really admire China – but I would never say that all countries are the same or that they have all the same problems in equal measure – that’s just silly.

        • Kai

          The point is. “sticking your head in the sand” and ” becoming racist against Chinese people” are not the only two choices you have.

          Those are the choices of perhaps a 4 year old.

          No one is challenging the “valid” point that there are a lot of phenomenon and way of doing things in China that are far less prevalent in certain other “first world countries”. They key to making your peace with it without becoming racist against the Chinese people is to understand the historical and environmental factors that have given rise to such phenomenon, just as history and environment has shaped every society and culture around the world.

          Our founding fathers owned slaves and held racist notions, but how we look at them today is modified by an understanding of the world they lived in. We can disagree with aspects of them but not categorically hate or dismiss them. The same approach should be used with the Chinese or any other people “foreign” to us and the values and norms we were socialized with in our native environment.

          You have to ask yourself if you’re going to allow the annoyances and frustrations you experience in China to overwhelm your personal character’s desire to not be a racist.

          Giving the benefit of the doubt is about giving the person you disagree with the benefit of the doubt that they can be reasoned with to see things your way or reach a mutually acceptable compromise. Giving the benefit of the doubt is also about not broadening your annoyance and frustration with some onto an entire nationality, and being sensitive enough to avoid making remarks that would do so. Giving the benefit of the doubt is finally also about recognizing when you might be developing, holding, or indulging a bias that your rational mind wouldn’t actually tolerate.

          • Tianzi

            “Our founding fathers owned slaves and held racist notions, but how we
            look at them today is modified by an understanding of the world they
            lived in. We can disagree with aspects of them but not categorically
            hate or dismiss them.”

            Sorry, but we certainly can categorically hate or dismiss them, just as we do in regards to Hitler, Stalin and other human rights abusers. There were people in Washington’s own era who were abolitionists, so “the world they lived” was one in which those who “owned slaves and held racist notions” were negatively viewed, just as they would be today.

          • Alex Dương

            There were people in Washington’s own era who were abolitionists, so
            “the world they lived” was one in which those who “owned slaves and held
            racist notions” were negatively viewed, just as they would be today.

            The difference is that today, that “negative view” is a mainstream position whereas back then, it was a minority view.

          • Kai

            Sorry for the confusion, I’m saying people can disagree with aspects of them but at the same time not categorially hate or dismiss them. The “can” means it’s possible for people to do such a thing. I’m not saying people “can’t” categorically hate or dismiss them. They can, and I’m saying they can also not do so.

            My point to Charles was that we’re capable of evaluating things and people within proper context and judge them accordingly. If people can do that with American founding fathers, they can do that with modern Chinese people as well.

  • rarkmobinson

    The young man did not ask for any physical confrontation. He did not start the confrontation. He reacted to a berating and later physical assault by the older man. Why the police are acting like a judge is beyond me.

  • Charles

    Confucius – I think it’s great that you should clarify any mistranslation – but the point still stands, IMO. Why should this young person feel any responsibility at all for the death of this elderly “gentlemen.” It’s absurd on it’s face. Seems to me that Chinese always feel the need to assign blame when something bad happens.

    If you aren’t careful, this country will become as crazy as the US, where people can sue McDonald’s for making hot coffee.

    • Confucius

      I think any moral person would feel some responsibility if they were in the shoes of the boy. I also think that many of the commentators here who argue that boy should not have any responsibility for what happened will just as readily argue this other perspective if they were not coloured by bias. It’s pretty much human to assign a reason (blame) for everything and unlikely to be uniquely Chinese. I think China is probably much more crazy than the US in the sense that there is no standardised pattern of behaviour throughout the continent. Then again, you wouldn’t expect the same pattern of behaviour when you travel across continental Europe, and even in the US you will find the east coast and the west coast having very different attitudes about basic manners.

      • Charles

        Not really – the divide would likely be between the coasts and the central states (“Mid-west”) – and of course between immigrant communities and “American” communities.

        However, your point is well taken.

        My point however, was about the legal craziness not moral opprobrium.

        In any event – I really don’t think that this young man should feel responsible for the death of the older man. He might feel bad that he was less than polite, but that certainly didn’t lead to this man’s death. I am not sure why you see this as biased.

        I agree that it is human to assign blame – but in China there is a strange situation that I have not seen anywhere else (in my limited travels around the world). There seems to be a lack of acceptance that bad things will happen and that in many cases no one is to blame. Also, there is apparently a tendency to blame people who have nothing to do with the situation – for example, we often see stories about poor people pretending to get hit by cars and such (I witnessed this years ago in Anhui).

        We also hear lots of stories of people blaming those who stop to try and help them and this has led to a situation where people are afraid to help each other (This in a country where many people aren’t willing to help others and don’t seem to feel empathy to begin with.)

        The other day when my GF fell down the escalator with a bunch of other people, there were police standing nearby watching. They literally didn’t move a muscle to help anyone and two people appeared to be badly hurt – but I digress…

        One more example of how blame is different in China. Many people are so afraid to get blamed for something they won’t even do simple things for the sake of the public good. A few years ago, I was driving in Dongbei and discovered a bunch cinder blocks scattered across the 201 国道. In all likelihood they had fallen off of a truck. (I could say a lot about this point as well) I saw them early enough so I avoided them, but they were sitting in the middle of the road right after a bend. It was a dangerous situation, as people often drive at 100 KPH or faster on this roads.

        Now, never mind the fact that there were a few men just standing on the side of the road chatting and ignoring this safety hazard, I stopped my car and move the blocks (The great Leifeng that I am). At the time, I was a teacher. When I mentioned this to my students, they told me that I shouldn’t have moved the blocks off the road because if this caused some kind of problem, I could be held responsible!!! I have heard this kind of logic repeated again and again over the years.

        Anyhow, I agree with you that everyone likes to find someone to blame when they have a problem – it’s human nature. However, China has it’s own unique culture of blame. It is very different from anything I have experienced elsewhere.

  • Balkan

    Not getting up for an elderly is not nice, but it is not illegal. Attacking someone physically is. I truly don’t understand the logic of Chinese legal system and which law exactly is being applied in this case.

  • Jahar

    if you just have a rudimentary grasp of the language, you sure your ability to translate this is better than that of the people working at the site?

    And how would thinking it is a legal comment portraying the Chinese more negatively?

    • Slayer

      I think the concern has been that many have expressed regarding legal culpability for grandpa’s death would be a pretty backward and unprecedented line of thinking were the young fellow to be prosecuted.

      I haven’t read the full assessment of grandpa’s health condition, but I’m going to guess he had hypertension. Until they can go back and prove this youngin’ was forcing gramps to eat smoked hunan bacon and fried eggs, drink baijiu, breathe Chinese urban air pollution and/or cigarettes..or whatever other lifestyle habits he had…to say somehow the sitting dude is responsible for this, legally, would be outrageous.

      Government officials in China could really learn a lot from hiring a few PR firms to help guide them in how they frame themselves to the public. I’m certain their propaganda ministers have studied these art forms, but I don’t know that they’re keeping up with the times.

      Remember these situations, boys and girls, what seems like a simple interaction or situation here can balloon pretty fast. I assure you that you don’t want to be the subject of tens of thousands of weibo posts, so instead of slapping that annoying bus driver in the mouth, getting naked on the metro and running from car to car, or shitting on the sidewalk in broad daylight, how about you put a lid on your bullshit so this doesn’t happen to you.

    • Confucius

      “And how would thinking it is a legal comment portraying the Chinese more negatively?”

      It shouldn’t, but the commentators on this thread that took this interpretation clearly found it a negative trait: that the Chinese are so [insert derogatory, disdainful, superior comment here] that they would hold the boy legally responsible for what transpired. You need to read the other comments to see what I am referring to.

      • Jahar

        How are you comparing what what they think to what they dont think? How can you say people wouldn’t be as critical if the situation were different?

        In any situation, a legal authority expressing that someone should bear responsibility for their actions is going to give the impression that they mean it in a legal manner.

        Also, Many of the chinese commenters are also talking about how the person was going to have to pay compensation, but Kai(or whomever) at Chinasmack had nothing to do with their post, and the original chinese. SO did the Chinese readers also misunderstand the original Chinese?

  • Kai

    What?

    “因为年轻人和老人发生了肢体冲突,老人猝死,年轻人应有部分责任,尸检结果还要五天左右出来。”

    What’s being “mistranslated” here? “Deliberately” or otherwise?

    Our “rudimentary” grasp of the language, as well as those of the Chinese netizens, does not interpret that as an ethical/moral comment. It isn’t a legal/judicial comment either, except in the context of being made by a police officer.

    If you’re going to slander us, at least come up with something better. On one side, we get people calling us Chinese nationalists and Han chauvinists. On the other side, we have people accusing us of a conspiracy to negatively portray the Chinese. I weep for humanity yet again.

    • Confucius

      I don’t know if it is deliberate, Kai, perhaps it isn’t and I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, hence the brackets. However, there have been translation errors consistently in the comments and articles you put up which commentators have taken particular negative shine to, but the original Chinese clearly did not have the same meaning or was clearly said in sarcasm or jest. If you were to find your commentators all taking a negative view of a particular comment you translated, surely that would prompt you to check, responsibly, whether your translation was correct. Unlike Fox News – which deliberately misleads by choosing inflammatory words and presenting one-sided views, but is known to be so by those who read widely (although still not ideal because there is a lot of US citizens who seem not to be able to avoid the brainwashing) – your translation takes on a sense of legitimacy because it is supposed to be a direct translation of what Chinese netizens post (and the story itself).

      In Chinasmack’s translation of the story, it sounds as if the policeman is attributing legal responsibility to the young man, while the actual Chinese does not.

      This is Chinasmack’s translation:
      “Because the young person and the elderly person had a physical altercation, the young person bears some responsibility for the elderly person’s sudden death. There’s still about five days before we’ll get the autopsy report.”

      This is what the Chinese actually says:
      “Because the young person and the elderly person had a physical altercation, the old man had a sudden death, the young person should feel some responsibility, the autopsy report will still need about five days to be presented.”

      This is the kind of sleight of hand that you would expect to see in the BBC reporting about the Kiev government vs Putin, not from Chinasmack, so I had given Chinasmack the benefit of the doubt that it was not deliberate. In which case Chinasmack should aim to always translate with a positive overtone unless the negative connotations are clear in the text – this is the reality of publishing Chinese stories to an audience inclined to read anything Chinese negatively (which is again a problem with how you run your forum, not necessarily a universal problem with the internet).

      • Kai

        I don’t know if it is deliberate, Kai, perhaps it isn’t and I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, hence the brackets.

        I’m not convincined. The brackets don’t do much to communicate benefit of the doubt given the rest of your comment.

        However, there have been translation errors consistently in the comments and articles you put up

        You’re claiming there have “consistently” been translation errors, without having a history of actually pointing out those translation errors. Why is this? What if I accuse you of consistently lying without a history of ever accusing you of lying before?

        What you are doing is poisoning the well.

        which commentators have taken particular negative shine to,

        Which you have apparently taken a particularly negative shine to. Or would you care to substantiate the plural?

        but the original Chinese clearly did not have the same meaning or was clearly said in sarcasm or jest.

        And the instances of you pointing these out are…where?

        I don’t recall any consistency of translation errors where the original Chinese “clearly” did not have the same meaning. Please point them out. You have so far not proven the above example as being mistranslated.

        As for sarcasm or jest, we editors make a judgement call as to whether or not we will explicitly point out sarcasm in our translations with an editor’s note. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t, depending on how much faith we have in our readers being able to pick it up. On one hand, we want people to figure it out as Chinese netizens did themselves. Part of interpreting online discourse is trying to understand what people are saying. On the other hand, sometimes it might be too subtle due to translation limitations that we’ll make it clear. Identifying sarcasm and jest is part of the process and appeal of learning things through the discussion of others.

        If you were to find your commentators all taking a negative view of a particular comment you translated, surely that would prompt you to check, responsibly, whether your translation was correct.

        What I found was a lot of our commenters taking a negative view of a particular comment that Chinese netizens ALSO took a negative view to. What I also found was that our translation was indeed correct.

        This makes me finding you accusing it of being incorrect and using lousy arguments to be particularly frustrating.

        your translation takes on a sense of legitimacy because it is supposed to be a direct translation of what Chinese netizens post (and the story itself).

        And our translations are, to the best of our ability.

        This is what the Chinese actually says:
        “Because the young person and the elderly person had a physical altercation, the old man had a sudden death, the young person should feel some responsibility, the autopsy report will still need about five days to be presented.”

        There is no “feel” in the original Chinese.

        “因为年轻人和老人发生了肢体冲突,老人猝死,年轻人应有部分责任,尸检结果还要五天左右出来。”

        Your translation attempts to replicate the original Chinese sentence structure in a way that does not make sense in English grammar, something a person with a “rudimentary grasp of the language” should already understand. You are not understanding the Chinese grammar.

        The closest English analogue to the above statement that keeps everything as one sentence would be:

        “The young person should bear some responsibility for the sudden death of the elderly person because of the physical altercation that occurred between them, and/but there’s still five days before the autopsy report comes out.”

        …which is pretty much what we translated, except we split it into two sentences.

        I think you are grossly misinterpreting how 应有and 部分 are used here by the police officer.

        This is the kind of sleight of hand that you would expect to see in the BBC reporting about the Kiev government vs Putin, not from Chinasmack, so I had given Chinasmack the benefit of the doubt that it was not deliberate.

        No, you didn’t. You started your comment off by calling us dishonestly immoral, having an agenda to publish negative stories and mistranslate them to boot in order to negatively portray Chinese news and commentators. You then suggested our translation ability or dishonesty in translation does not even rise to your rudimentary Chinese language ability, thus allowing you to either criticize us or see through our plot. Finally, you insinuated that your comment may be censored without articulating what part of our comment policy it would run afoul of, but not without again accusing us of a conspiracy to negatively portray the Chinese.

        Don’t be a disingenuous ass. You came at us guns blazing armed with only a “rudimentary grasp of the language” that has led you to falsely accuse us of a mistranslating a line in the original Chinese article that Chinese netizens themselves have also interpreted in the same way we have translated it. The only way you can justify your translation is by inserting words that are not present in the actual Chinese and claiming to have better Chinese than Fauna and I.

        In which case Chinasmack should aim to always translate with a positive overtone unless the negative connotations are clear in the text

        There is no “negative” or “positive” overtone in that statement by the police officer. He said what he said and we translated what he said. We shouldn’t aim to translate “with a positive overtone” unless there is one. Likewise, we don’t translate “with a negative overtone” unless there is one.

        – this is the reality of publishing Chinese stories to an audience inclined to read anything Chinese negatively (which is again a problem with how you run your forum, not necessarily a universal problem with the internet).

        No, if there is a problem, it is with the audience who is inclined to read anything negatively. Our editorial mission is not to use HOW we translate something in order to compensate for possible reader biases. Our editorial mission is to translate trending Chinese internet content with as much fidelity as we can muster.

        You are asking us to intentionally put more a more “positive” spin on our translations in order to prevent a hostile audience from interpreting things negatively. You want propaganda. That is not what we do nor do we think it is what we should do.

        You are also critical of our “forum” because of the prevalence of commenters who are inclined to read anything Chinese negatively. You argue that because we will not silence these people in our forum, we should modify our translations to minimize their ability to interpret things negatively.

        No. I’m sorry, people with biases and prejudices IS a universal problem with the internet because it IS a problem with the world. The internet as a communications tool only makes it easier for you to be exposed to these people. They exist. You want to reduce their population. That’s admirable. You believe this can and should be achieved by feeding them more positive information. We believe this can be achieved with truth, honesty, and a forum for discussion. You want to tell people what to think, whereas we believe in GETTING PEOPLE TO THINK when confronted with WHAT IS.

        Our philosophies are different. There’s nothing inherently wrong in having different philsophical approaches to a problem. You seek control and we hope for enlightenment. Both have worked for different ends throughout history.

        But I will not tolerate you making bullshit claims about our site without defending ourselves.

        • Confucius

          You are wrong on this one, Kai. It’s a shame you don’t see this here despite your usual ability to remove bias in your reasonings and comprehension. I will point out Chinasmack’s mistranslations and negative take on Chinese news in the future as I encounter them. In this instance Chinasmack’s English translation reads as if the policeman is attributing legal responsibility of the old man’s death to the young man. This is not just my personal comprehension of this translation – it is evident from the other commentators here and on the other threads that this is how they read the translation also.

          I don’t appreciate your personal attack on me and do hope that you will refrain from this in the future.

          • Kai

            I’m not wrong, and you can’t merely insist that I am. You have to prove how I am, and you haven’t done so.

            In this instance Chinasmack’s English translation reads as if the policeman is attributing legal responsibility of the old man’s death to the young man. This is not just my personal comprehension of this translation – it is evident from the other commentators here and on the other threads that this is how they read the translation also.

            And it is how countless Chinese netizens have comprehended the original Chinese as well. I’ve said this for the third time now. Why are you ignoring this fact that our translation suggests an understanding that is echoed by countless other native Chinese speakers?

            I don’t appreciate your personal attack on me and do hope that you will refrain from this in the future.

            I will do so when you refrain from your unjustified personal attacks against us. If you don’t want to be called a “disingenuous ass”, don’t mischaracterize your comment as giving us the “benefit of the doubt”. You slandered us full-bore and had the audacity to pretend you tried to be fair to us? That was a dick move by any measure.

          • Kai

            You just posted a comment and asked that it not be published. In it, you articulated your gripes with cS by pointing to someone else’s complaint with cS. [Edit: I forgot to say, I would normally reply to you by email but you’ve doggedly insisted on posting anonymously as a guest, so I have no choice but to reply to your private comment intended for us mods only in a public comment because you use a fake email address.]

            There were at least three past contributors to cS who defended cS in response. While they don’t say everything I would have said, they said a lot.

            The reason I never bothered to respond to Hugh was because it was clear that he is attacking us for having an editorial mission that is not what he thinks it should be. He’s attacking us for failing to do things we don’t promise to do but which he thinks we should do.

            He’s critical of our “negative news focus” not because he doesn’t understand that negative news is what trends, but because he doesn’t like that negative news trends. Our mission statement is to translate what trends, not what certain readers prefer to be trending.

            He’s critical of how puerile some of our translated content is. It’s not that he doesn’t understand that puerile content often trends, it’s that he doesn’t like that puerile content trends. He’s more high-brow than the Chinese netizens that made such content trending. That’s not his fault, but it isn’t our fault either for doing what we promise to do.

            He’s critical of our popularity. This is just like resenting negative or puerile news being popular. This is like resenting someone else for having more friends than you. This is hating Adam Sandler because you don’t find him funny but so many others do. He’s ultimately angry that people are not like him but taking it out on us for finding what is popular with society to be interesting and insightful enough in of itself to translate and share.

            He’s critical that we don’t offer analysis, and that we stick to doing what we promise to do: translating. That’s like being angry that McDonald’s doesn’t offer ribeye steak in truffle butter with a side of organic seasonal greens. It’s not our purpose and we don’t feel it should be our purpose. We don’t want to editorialize and spoon-feed conclusions to our readers in our work. We let people, including ourselves, do that in our comments section where we think it belongs. We’re not here to to prosyletize or propagandize what people should think, we’re here to present what IS, except in English, and let people reconcile it as they will. If they reconcile it in a dumb way, we put our hopes in the comments section.

            As I’ve already suggested, both you and Hugh are ultimately angry that we don’t have the same motivations and philosophy about life as you guys do. I started a group blog with two of the bloggers Hugh recommended to anyone who was only reading cS. I see value in analysis and commentary, but I don’t think that’s what every website should be about. I don’t think analytical editorials is the only way to learn about things. You can learn different things by reading a person’s analysis of a movie AND by watching the movie yourself. cS attempts to do the latter. There are plenty of other sites that do the former. Fauna didn’t and doesn’t have faith in her ability to pontificate her own views, but she did and does have faith in her ability to translate accurately.

            Both you and Huge are judging cS unfairly. We are “irresponsible” because there are people we cannot control who draw the wrong or unfair conclusions from the material we present. You guys are angry at us because there are people who cannot reconcile the information on cS with rationality.

            We aim for neutrality in what trending content we translate and how we translate them. We do not aim to allow commenters to dictate what we translate. I and some other mods balance what commenters are saying as an expression of our personal opinions as fellow members of this community, not as a representation of cS itself (unless it’s to defend cS itself).

            We also aim for a level of transparency unseen by most other English language media about China. We explicitly cite our sources and display the original Chinese text. We literally encourage people to check our work. How can you recognize that and still say you “hope” we make the effort to be “extra vigilant” and “neutral”?

            I accused you of being a “disingenuous ass” and articulated WHY you were being disingenuous. I didn’t just simply accuse you as if I was calling you a name and that’s it. If you don’t like being called a “disingenuous ass”, then you’re free to articulate how what you did was not disingenuous and thus my characterization of you was inappropriate and unfair. Otherwise, admit that you were, ideally apologize for it, and then be more vigilant in what you are accusing us of.

        • Confucius

          This comment is for you mods only and not written for it to be published (although you are of course more than welcome to do so if you feel it is appropriate in some way) – I don’t want to draw attention to a blog from 3 years ago – but this blog essentially summarises what I think about Chinasmack: http://eastasiastudent.net/china/problem-with-chinasmack

          I have only been an irregular reader for the past year but clearly the issues have not changed much. I think you provide an invaluable service to help bridge the large divide in mutual understanding between the Chinese and non-Chinese readers/expats/Western media, but it is only constructive if it is positive not negative. Of course you can always simply be neutral but that will require that you be extra-vigilant about your choice of stories, how you translate the stories, what comments you pick and how you translate them, and balancing what the commentators are saying. I hope you do make that effort – simply accusing me of being a disingenuous ass will not help.

          • Alex Dương

            cS chooses stories that are popular and trending. That’s it. You can verify for yourself that the translated comments were the most upvoted.

      • SongYii

        Oh, please, CNN and MSNBC are at least, if not more, sloppy and dishonest in their reporting as FNC.

    • In written form doesn’t that make it libel not slander?

      • Kai

        Libel is a subset of slander.

        • Or they are both a subset of defamation and not one to the other?

          • Kai

            “Slander” and “libel” are both subsets of “defamation” while “libel” is also a subset of “slander”. Actually, “slander” is often synonymous with “defamation”, but “libel” is definitely a more limited form of both “slander” and/or “defamation”.

  • wnsk

    Moral of the story: Give up your fucking seat to the elderly. Will it kill you to do so?

  • Would a reasonable person expect someone to die as a result of not giving up a seat? Simple test. Apply it.

  • King Kong

    If you lived or visited China you will know how ridiculous their laws are and dealing with the police is like dealing with a 6year child. Most old Chinese I have witnessed are grumpy rude and some time violent..this old man got so worked up that he had a heart attack..nothing more.

  • bjteacup

    I’ve tried to give up my seat to elderly people on the subway and bus in BJ loads of times, and sometimes they take it, but there’s a fine line. Some of them get offended that I thought they were that old and frail… >__<,

  • Diplodocus

    The elderly ride for free in China. Would it kill them not to ride the bus during rush hour when adults go and come out of work and kid go and get off school???

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