Taiwan Students Protest China Trade Pact, Occupy Parliament

Students and other protesters hold banners inside Taiwan's legislature in Taipei, March 18, 2014. REUTERS/Stringer

On March 18th, students protesting the KMT’s Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement occupied Taiwan’s Legislative Yuan [aka “parliament” or “legislature”]. Students are concerned about the lack of transparency and secrecy surrounding the cross-strait pact, as well the effect expanded trade ties with Mainland China would have on Taiwan’s economy.

News about the student sit-in at the Legislative Yuan’s main assembly hall has been the top trending topic on Taiwan’s Yahoo News site.

As news about the student sit-in first broke, Taiwanese netizens had mixed reactions to students crashing the Legislative Yuan’s main assembly hall. While there were general calls of support and praise by Taiwanese who fear the cross-strait pact will hurt Taiwan’s economy and democracy, there were also concerns that the protest was being used by pro-DPP forces, and that students were too young to understand Taiwan and China’s economic relationship.

As the student occupation of the Legislative Yuan stretches into its first full week, student leaders of the protest have demanded to meet with President Ma Ying-jeou, make the details of the Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement known to the public, and revise some of the content of the cross-strait pact.

From Apple Daily Taiwan:

Cross-Strait Service and Trade Pact Protests: Students Crash the Legislative Yuan, Occupy Assembly Hall

In protest of the KMT assembly intensifying their push for the Cross-strait Service and Trade Pact (CSSTP) to be be passed into law, hundreds of students separately charged and broke through the main entrance and the Jinan Road side entrance of the Legislative Yuan. Students then made a beeline for the assembly hall, where they then sat on the floor in protest. Because security were caught off guard, the students even burst into the assembly hall’s inner chambers, where they began throwing objects from within and smashed glass, causing considerable chaos at the scene. By approximately 9:30pm, the assembly hall had been stormed, the assembly platform occupied, and protest banners unfurled on the platform and from the second floor of the assembly hall.

To prevent the police from removing them, students used chairs to seal the entrance to the assembly hall, fortifying their position, preventing police from entering the hall. At 9:55pm, they engaged in a clash of pushing and shoving with the police, and even splashed water at the police, with students shouting “give the assembly hall back to the people!”

Hundreds of students breached and occupied the Legislative Yuan assembly hall.

Hundreds of students breached and occupied the Legislative Yuan assembly hall.

Students climbed over the fence of the Legislative Yuan, crashing the assembly hall.

Students climbed over the fence of the Legislative Yuan, crashing the assembly hall.

The Legislative Yuan's speaker’s podium was also overturned by the students.

The Legislative Yuan’s speaker’s podium was also overturned by the students.

Security stationed at the Legislative Yuan were caught off-guard; the assembly hall was breached, then occupied by the students.

Security stationed at the Legislative Yuan were caught off-guard; the assembly hall was breached, then occupied by the students.

Security stationed at the Legislative Yuan were caught off-guard; the assembly hall was breached, then occupied by the students.

Security stationed at the Legislative Yuan were caught off-guard; the assembly hall was breached, then occupied by the students.

Security at the Legislative Yuan were overwhelmed, the assembly hall breached by the students.

Security at the Legislative Yuan were overwhelmed, the assembly hall breached by the students.

Students invaded the assembly hall, tussled with Legislative Yuan security guards.

Students invaded the assembly hall, tussled with Legislative Yuan security guards.

The Legislative Yuan assembly hall was invaded and occupied by the students.

The Legislative Yuan assembly hall was invaded and occupied by the students.

Students used chairs to block off the assembly hall doors.

Students used chairs to block off the assembly hall doors.

Students breach and occupy the assembly hall.

Students breach and occupy the assembly hall.

During the conflict, some students sustained injuries, and fell to the ground.

During the conflict, some students sustained injuries, and fell to the ground.

The attack upon and occupation of the assembly hall is unprecedented in the Legislative Yuan’s history.

The attack upon and occupation of the assembly hall is unprecedented in the Legislative Yuan’s history.

Students occupying the assembly hall quarrel with security at the entrance.

Students occupying the assembly hall quarrel with security at the entrance.

Students use chairs from the assembly hall to block off the entrance.

Students use chairs from the assembly hall to block off the entrance.

Students and security push, shove, and quarrel with each other; one student caught in between sustained injuries. (Zhao Yuanbin, Zhang Liangyi, Hang Dapeng / reporting from Taipei)

Students and security push, shove, and quarrel with each other; one student caught in between sustained injuries. (Zhao Yuanbin, Zhang Liangyi, Hang Dapeng / reporting from Taipei)

Comments from Apple Daily Taiwan:

Ting Chieh Huang:

It’s clearly not just students.

Hung Ching Lam:

There’s no talking/reasoning with those Pro-Green retards who oppose anything to do with China!!!

紀健志: (referring to above comment)

Chen Zhiming, there’s no talking/reasoning with Pro-Ma Yingjeou retards who lick the ass of anything to do with China/CCP!!!

劉宇哲:

Our ruling party uses forceful, uncivilized ways to push through the cross-strait trade pact…
and there are still people who care about a thing like some glass being broken.

Taiwan is truly beyond saving.

Lala Chang:

I hope the people who see this will stop thinking it is just an impulsive protest of students. There are people from all walks of life at the scene of the sit-in. This should be an issue the whole nation pays attention to. Illegal means were used to force the cross-strait trade pact through the first stage, and this truly damages Taiwan’s democracy. The moment this kind of unequal trade pact passes, our days of suffering/hardship will begin. This is simply poisoning the Taiwanese people. The real violence being used is the erroneous and selfish policy decisions of the government!

Eric Cheng:

The children at the scene, these are things that should never have fallen upon you to do…

So I’m moved.

Pyro Tsai:

To tell you the truth, I really want to go and join them right now!

李克昂:

No matter if your reasons are proper, violence is wrong!

Democracy shouldn’t be like this!

TAIPEI, TAIWAN - MARCH 19:  Students and protestors occupy the Taiwanese Parliament to protest against the act by the ruling Kuomintang party to ratify a controversial service and trade agreement with China on March 19, 2014 in Taipei, Taiwan. Over 200 students broke into the Taiwan Parliament and took over the main chamber in protest against the service and trade aggreement.  (Photo by Ashley Pon/Getty Images)

From Yahoo News Taiwan:

Lin Fei-fan: Will Continue Occupying Parliament, Expand Protest

National Taiwan University student [and protest leader] Lin Fei-fan appeared personally to issue a statement this evening (21st) around 6:10pm. He says the Cross-Strait Service and Trade Pact is no longer as simple as a problem with parliament [the Legislative Yuan]. He says Ma Ying-jeou should take responsibility, and Wang Jin-ping too should openly respond to student’s questions. On behalf of the students opposing the “black box” [passage of the] cross-strait pact, Lin Fei-fan announced that tomorrow they will call on the people throughout the nation to stage sit-ins, surrounding KMT party offices everywhere, and exert pressure on legislators. The occupation of the Legislative Yuan will continue to call for support from the public, to enlarge the protest. He says this is directed against the failure of representative democratic politics, and the KMT’s lack of genuine soul-searching.

Comments from Facebook:

薇薇:

Add oil! We support you!

Matt Chiu:

Ask students at the protest what the Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement is, and there’d probably only be a few who could answer. Students who are normally fawning over big rubber ducks, grabbing Japanese chocolate bars, playing video games, obsessively watching My Love from the Star, of course don’t know what the cross-strait service trade agreement is. A bunch of people following others blindly creating a disturbance [for excitement] being used by politicians, who go there to “check in” [on Facebook] to get a free lunch box, and then cry out a political slogan. This is what we call a “student movement?”

Michelle Liao:

Everyone please think back to what happened after Hong Kong and China signed CEPA, and the situation people in Hong Kong are in now. Hong Kong’s mistake must not happen in Taiwan!

徐明濂:

I support the Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement, and oppose students forcibly occupying parliament, turning our national flag upside down, and damaging public property.

Cabrera Lee:

Why not just up the stakes? Dissolve parliament and have them hold new elections. Also, don’t just surround the KMT party headquarters/offices, but the DPP headquarters/offices too! That’s the only way to make things fair~

李昀修:

I support the Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement, oppose “black box” [non-transparency], oppose student violence, and oppose destruction of public property and the occupation of parliament.

Mei Hui Yu:

If anyone dares hurt these children, we mothers and grandmothers will definitely join the cause. I also don’t know what the President is afraid of? Why can’t he explain clearly and make everyone understand [the trade pact], forcing these children to protest like this?

王國忠:

Continue to close the country to trade, continue to suffer from political infighting, and continue to collect 22k NTD salaries; stupid brats, the ones who will suffer in the future will be yourselves!

陳曉方:

Just you wait until A-Liu [a derogatory Taiwanese term for mainland Chinese] comes to Taiwan, then you’ll know what is polluted won’t just be air quality.

taiwanese-students-occupy-legislative-yuan-protest-cross-strait-service-trade-pact-a

藍小若:

People who are against the cross-strait trade pact, dare to protest in the streets.
People who support the cross-strait trade pact, only dare to pat themselves on the back in front of their computer.

Hawk Wang:

If this were a trade pact between America and Taiwan with the same terms, would you sign?

黃承泰:

The black box [secretive, non-transparent] handling of the cross-strait pact is really wrong. But it’s not to be discarded/rejected just because you university students say so! Then what’s the point of having government? Are you really able to represent Taiwan’s twenty-some million people?

Matt Chiu:

Your mouths say you’re against China, against the cross-strait trade pact, but the pants, shoes, and socks you wear on your bodies were all made there. Even the computer mouse under your hand was made there too! Hehe!

郭雅樺:

If the cross-strait trade pact passes, Taiwanese people are doomed! We absolutely must take a stand to the very end! Keep at it!

林裕景:

Mainland investors come to Taiwan and make money, and with that also create job opportunities as well. When it comes to salaries, the government will naturally ensure that they are equitable. If service is bad [from mainland companies], we can just refuse to buy from or use them. It’s always said how Koreans don’t use our mobile phones and we all say over and over again how we love Taiwan, but look at how many people are holding Samsung or Apple phones.

Kenny Chen:

If the protesting students have the guts [spine, principles, sincerity], don’t apply to companies that have investments or factories in mainland China after graduation!

賴彥智:

You motherfucking traitors who support Ma sold out Taiwan!

董至誠:

Go, students! Your elders in society support you. I truly feel sorry that you have to fight for your own futures.

taiwanese-students-occupy-legislative-yuan-protest-cross-strait-service-trade-pact-e

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  • The FRED FONG

    ………….

  • FYIADragoon

    Their demands are valid. They are being used as a tool by the DPP since they aren’t attacking them too, but the KMT needs to feel the heat for their actions. They’ve been given a free ticket to ride for far too long. They should be approaching their agreements with the mainland with a sense of responsibility for the welfare of Taiwan.

    • Insomnicide

      The KMT in the end is still the Chinese Nationalist Party, what can you expect? Their main concern is still the entire region of China, with Taiwan as a ‘special province’ of China that they currently control.

      • Kai

        Nah, dude, the KMT today cannot really be characterized as being particularly concerened with “the entire region of China”, at least not in any sense of them somehow prioritizing the interests of “the entire region of China” over Taiwan. They have vague hopes for a future reunification but otherwise still prioritize Taiwan interests first as they should. They’re not delusional.

        • don mario

          “They’re not delusional.”

          debatable.

          • Kai

            As a whole, I don’t think the KMT is delusional. I won’t rule out there being delusional members with delusional notions. Then again, I’d say the same thing about the DPP.

          • don mario

            i’m not picking on them..i’d say the same about most politicians on the planet to be fair..

          • Kai

            Hah, true.

    • Yeap

      Isn’t a free trade agreement beneficial to one’s economy?. They’re just protesting because the other party is China. If this agreement was, say with any other country, these kids would be out partying to celebrate a great win. Of course, since it’s China(the evil boogie man in the closet), it just becomes a podium for some China/Chinese bashing and to flaunt their own superiority over the Mainland.

      • FYIADragoon

        I’ve already stated that they are obviously being used as tools, but what they are requesting is fair. Using hypothetical scenarios does nothing to discredit this. If they want to prove that interactions with the mainland have not damaged the process of democracy, they could do so by answering the demands.

      • Don’t Believe the Hype

        How did u know about my closet?

      • don mario

        yawn

  • Insomnicide

    While i agree that black box policies are oppressive of the common people’s freedom and democratic rights. This whole event just turned into one big slander against mainland Chinese people with millions of Taiwanese people on various internet media sites such as YouTube or Facebook making stupid comments like “Fuck Chinese people, we are not Chinese” etc. etc. And of course, the occasional non-Chinese, non-Taiwanese person joining in on the shit-flinging.

    • lacompacida

      Taiwanese are Taiwanese. Tibetans are Tibetans. Uighurs are Uighurs. Mongolians are Mongolians. Hans are Hans. There is no tribe or race called Chinese.

      • Insomnicide

        Taiwanese are ethnically Han Chinese.

        • wnsk

          Isn’t “Han” just the name of a past dynasty? All the Cantonese and Hokkien people I know (in Singapore) refer to themselves in their native dialect as “Tang people” rather than “Han.”

          So technically, these designations are political in origin, rather than racial. The impression I have is, even from ancient times, being “Chinese” was defined by your culture, and not skin colour; i.e. if you speak/write Chinese, eat Chinese, wear Chinese, then goddamnit you ARE (seen as) Chinese. And if you don’t practice this culture, then you are seen as foreign or 蛮 (“man” i..e. barbarian.)

          Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Taiwanese and Mainlanders share a common ancestry. But then, so do chimpanzees and humans. Culturally, and in terms of shared (recent) history, the Taiwanese Chinese (and Hong Kong and Singapore Chinese, etc) differ from Mainlanders almost as much as Koreans and Japanese (who, although much of their culture is Chinese-derived, are still seen as unique and culturally different.)

          Personally, I would like to see all Chinese everywhere united, but then somebody would have to go and do a “Qin Shi Huang.” That means burning books and burying scholars. Not nice.

          • Insomnicide

            Han Chinese are named after the Han dynasty because that’s the era when all the Sinic groups were molded into one ethnicity. Cantonese and Hokkien people refer themselves as Tang because they were heavily sinicized during the Tang dynasty, which means most of them descend from settlers during that era and their culture and language are descended from it. But sometimes they refer themselves as Han as well. Depending on who you talk to. It’s political, it’s cultural and it’s ethnic.

            In the ancient times, people can become Chinese if they assimilate into the Chinese civilization but there’s also a genetic lineage. Among modern Chinese, they have a Y-chromosome gene that links them together. So Han Chinese is not just language and culture but also ancestry as well.

            I understand you comparison with chimpanzees and Koreans and Japanese but humans are closer to humans than chimps and Han Chinese are closer to Han Chinese than Koreans or Japanese.

            I guess all Chinese can never be truly united, but realistically it’s possible to get Hong Kongers and Taiwanese back into the family. It will still take quite a bit of work though.

          • Zappa Frank

            genetic thing is highly arguable when it comes Han Chinese.. studies are still on and many contradict each others..

          • Insomnicide

            It’s not absolute, but there’s some obvious facial complexions and genes which are concentrated in the Han Chinese ethnicity.

            And while it’s highly arguable, there’s been a few researches done from different sources that agree on a defining Han Chinese Halogroup.

          • Zappa Frank

            not at all most research that confirm this ‘theory’ have been done by chinese in a nationalistic vision, but since they are the same that before believed chinese were descendent of the peking man it is not that reliable .. on the opposite i can forward you some research that don’t see any clear line in genetic han..

          • Insomnicide

            I had no idea that American National Geographic is apart of the Chinese propaganda team. Please, do tell me more.

          • Zappa Frank

            It is evident that you don’t know too much since you were talking about facials complexions that is not used anymore by any scientist with some value.
            If you can give me your email I can forward you many articles, not of the national geographic, but of science review.
            About the Peking man is well known that Chinese scientists before claimed to be the descendent of the Peking man (you know him right?) following the multiregional theory …to bad later all evidences pointed as true the out of Africa thesis.. Now even some (not all) Chinese anthropologists accept it as the only reasonable one.. People came in china from south east and spread to north, but in the same time there are evidences of a minor north-south immigration and than a mix that created a quite different genetic pool from south to north.. Very strange thing is that the oldest sapiens found in china doesn’t seem to have Mongolic features

          • Insomnicide

            Well we all know now the Peking man is a different species. But these research on the Han genetics are a different story. There are many researches conducted on human genetics, most famous of all is the Human genome project. Surely you’d believe them right? Just post the links to the articles here. And I’ll try and find the papers I got my sources from.

          • Zappa Frank

            NATIVES OR IMMIGRANTS: MODERN HUMAN ORIGIN IN EAST ASIA

            Li Jin and Bing Su

            Cambridge Studies in Biological and Evolutionary
            Anthropology 43

            Bioarchaeology of Southeast Asia

            Evolution and migration history of the Chinese population
            inferred from Chinese Y-chromosome evidence

            Wei Deng Æ Baochen Shi Æ Xiaoli He Æ Zhihua Zhang Jun Xu Æ
            Biao Li Æ Jian Yang Æ Lunjiang Ling Chengping Dai Æ Boqin Qiang Æ Yan Shen
            Runsheng Chen

            A multivariate analysis of measurements recorded in early
            and more modern crania from

            East Asia and Southeast Asia

            Michael Pietrusewsky

            Paternal Population History of East Asia: Sources, Patterns,
            and Microevolutionary Processes Tatiana Karafet,1,3 Liping Xu,4 Ruofu Du,4
            William Wang,5 Shi Feng,5 R. S. Wells,6 Alan J. Redd,1 Stephen L. Zegura,2 and
            Michael F. Hammer1,2

            Brown, P. 1999. The first modern East Asians ?: another look
            at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1. In K. Omoto (ed.)
            Interdisciplinary Perspectives on the Origins of the Japanese, pp. 105-130.
            International Research Center for Japanese Studies: Kyoto.

            Feng Zhang, Bing Su, Ya-ping Zhang and Li Jin Genetic
            studies of human diversity in East Asia

            Large-Scale mtDNA Screening Reveals a Surprising Matrilineal
            Complexity in East Asia and Its Implications to the Peopling of the Region

            Qing-Peng Kong,*,1,2 Chang Sun,1 Hua-Wei Wang,3 Mian
            Zhao,1,2 Wen-Zhi Wang,1,2 Li Zhong,3 Xiao-Dan Hao,1,2 Hui Pan,1,2 Sha-Yan
            Wang,4 Yao-Ting Cheng,1,2 Chun-Ling Zhu,1 Shi-Fang Wu,1 Li-Na Liu,1 Jie-Qiong
            Jin,1 Yong-Gang Yao,5 and Ya-Ping Zhang*,1,2,3

            Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in
            Human Population Expansion Times

            Yali Xue,*,†,‡ Tatiana Zerjal,*,‡ Weidong Bao,‡,§ Suling
            Zhu,‡,§ Qunfang Shu,§ Jiujin Xu,§ Ruofu Du,§ Songbin Fu,† Pu Li,† Matthew E.
            Hurles,* Huanming Yang** and Chris Tyler-Smith*,‡,1

            Population structure and history in East Asia

            Yuan-Chun Ding*, Stephen Wooding†, Henry C. Harpending†,
            Han-Chang Chi‡, Hai-Peng Li*, Yun-Xin Fu§, Jun-Feng Pang*, Yong-Gang Yao*,
            Jing-Gong Xiang Yu*, Robert Moyzis‡, and Ya-ping Zhang*¶

            Trading Genes along the Silk Road: mtDNA Sequences and the
            Origin of Central Asian Populations David Comas,1,2,* Francesc Calafell,1,3,*
            Eva Mateu,1 Anna Pe´rez-Lezaun,1,4 Elena Bosch,1 Rosa Mart´ınez-Arias,1 Jordi
            Clarimon,1 Fiorenzo Facchini,5 Giovanni Fiori,5 Donata Luiselli,5 Davide
            Pettener,5 and Jaume Bertranpetit1

            Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the
            Southwest and Central Asian Corridor Llu´ısQuintana-Murci,1,2,3
            Raphae¨lleChaix,4 R. Spencer Wells,5 Doron M. Behar,6 Hamid Sayar,12 Rosaria
            Scozzari,7 Chiara Rengo,9 Nadia Al-Zahery,9 Ornella Semino,9 A. Silvana
            Santachiara-Benerecetti,9 Alfredo Coppa,8 Qasim Ayub,10 Aisha Mohyuddin,10
            Chris Tyler-Smith,11 S. Qasim Mehdi,10 Antonio Torroni,9 and Ken McElreavey3

            Extended Y Chromosome Investigation Suggests Postglacial
            Migrations of Modern Humans into East Asia via the Northern Route

            Hua Zhong,,1,2,3 Hong Shi,,2 Xue-Bin Qi,2 Zi-Yuan Duan,4
            Ping-Ping Tan,1 Li Jin,5 Bing Su,*,2 and Runlin Z. Ma*,1

            take a look and if you cannot find something I can email to you. use google scholar

        • Eidolon

          But they are politically Taiwanese, and political identity becomes ethnic identity eventually. That’s what happened with Han, and it’s what’s happening with Taiwanese.

          Having said that, the Japanese/Korean analogy is a huge exaggeration. Whatever is shared between the Japanese and the Koreans, they diverged, at the minimum, ~2,000 years ago – before they had written traditions, even.

          The Taiwanese-Chinese split, by contrast, is a lot sooner – around 300 years for the Fujian migrants, and for the KMT migrants, it’s less than 70 years. They know exactly where they came from and who their ancestors were.

          Further, due to KMT enforced education, Taiwanese today speak Mandarin instead of Min Chinese, so there isn’t a linguistic divide between the mainlanders and Taiwan.

          To this end, Taiwan is seen to be politically salvageable by the CCP and those actors within the KMT who believe in Chinese unification. This is a risky situation, gepolitically speaking, because it opens the board up for Crimea-style takeovers.

        • don mario

          do you know the difference of ethnicity and nationality or are you just pretending to be some kind of cute stupid guy?

      • Alex Dương

        Less than 2% of Taiwan is aboriginal. The majority group – the Hoklo – are descended from Fujianese Han Chinese immigrants who intermarried with Taiwanese aboriginals.

        • don mario

          are u trying to say only aboriginals are taiwanese? but they came from somewhere else to. talking nonsense.

          • Alex Dương

            No. Are you trying to say that Hoklos aren’t descended from Fujianese Han Chinese immigrants who intermarried with Taiwanese aboriginals?

          • don mario

            no. i am saying those people are taiwanese.

          • Alex Dương

            So am I. Are you just upset about the FACT that Hoklos have Chinese ancestry?

          • don mario

            i am not upset? you made a statement about aboriginals. so it seemed like you are saying that to be a certain nationality you need to be an aboriginal. if not why did you raise the point that less than 2% of taiwanese are aboriginals?

          • Alex Dương

            Did you read the comment I was replying to? “Taiwanese are Taiwanese. Tibetans are Tibetans. Uighurs are Uighurs.
            Mongolians are Mongolians. Hans are Hans. There is no tribe or race called Chinese.”

            He is implying that Taiwanese and Hans are completely different people. That is wrong; 98% of Taiwanese people are Han or partially Han. This is why I brought up Taiwanese aboriginals; only for them is it true that they are not Han. But they make up less than 2% of Taiwanese people.

            Do you understand now?

          • don mario

            and since when did a taiwanese ever say they were not han?

          • Alex Dương

            You should ask lacompacida this.

      • Wodowsan

        Actually only the “mountain” people are really Taiwanese. the majority of Taiwanese are Han-ren. The Han -ren from Fujian pushed the Taiwanese aborigines into the mountains taking most of the fertile lands on the island.

        Many Taiwanese would rightfully argue that are Taiwanese not Chinese, like Americans are not British.

        Having lived in the ROC and the PRC it is clear to me that culturally and politically Taiwanese are as different from Mainlanders as Americans are from the British. They share a common heritage but they have diverged from each other.
        I just wish the Taiwanese would stop saying they speak Taiwanese not Chinese. It is not Taiwanese it is Mǐn yǔ or Fujianese at least.It would be like saying I speak American. I don’t speak American, I speak English. I read and write English. American-English yes, but it is still English.

        • ScottLoar

          Strictly speaking Taiwanese is commonly understood to be the dialect 閩南語 unlike, for example, the 閩北語 spoken by their close cousins in Southeast Asia, because the two groups represent different periods of migration from different areas of Fukian. Both dialects are mutually intelligible but different as attests any speaker.

          That a native speaker of 閩南語 may on some occasion call it 台灣話 is just a convenience; most Taiwanese do refer to their dialect as 閩南語, and calling it “Taiwanese” in English is the convention.

        • don mario

          400 years being seperated and about 6 of those only actually being under chinese rule will do that…

          they can call it taiwanese, its obviously not the exact same language anymore. just like i can call american english ‘yanky speak’

          • Wodowsan

            Never heard any American, or anyone say. They speak “Yanky speak”

            To say it is not same language would mean they cannot understand each other any more. There are few words different between Taiwan and Fujian like American-English and British-English. But they are still the same languages.

            Before the Japanese were given Taiwan as part of the Peace agreement of first Sino-Japanese war Taiwan was ruled by officials of the Qing Dynasty. I personally visited the Imperial governor’s home which is now a museum. I was told that it was not considered a plum posting.

          • don mario

            lol yea, i was just messing about. but i might start using the term yanky speak, it sounds funny. i didn’t say it wasn;t the same language, i said it wasn’t the exact same. and i made the same comparison to say that i (a brit) could call american english yanky speak if i want to differentiate it.

            yea, i never said taiwan was not ruled by the qing.. but i pointed out that it was not(officially) for very long at all.

  • Tamil Tiger

    These Taiwan students are different from those in the Mainland, they got their own brains. Those in the Mainland student are like dogs, cannot do anything.

    • Brian227

      Sadly, they’re not any different at all. They’ve ignored the DPP’s role in preventing the Legislature debating the pact while ratchetting up their demands on the elected government. What does the pact actually contain that they object to, other than that it’s with the PRC? Why do they think the political consensus across RoC is in favour of it?

      What we have here is a group of youths who couldn’t get their way by democratic methods and are trying to force it through regardless. How can mob rule possibly be a good thing?

    • Alex Dương

      Ironically, they are behaving exactly the way they stereotype mainland Chinese: they are acting like uncivilized brutes. You don’t have to break into the Legislative Yuan and destroy property to make your point; you can protest in the streets, and you should write to your legislator.

      • mr.wiener

        The KMT and President Ma in particular have been oblivious to any criticism of their policies to get closer to china, in particular the legislation to allow Mainland Chinese to open businesses here.
        I feel every generation should do something like this while they are still young and dumb, and it has acted like a lightning rod to 50% or so of Chinese who do not approve of these policies.

        • Alex Dương

          “Youth” shouldn’t be an excuse since presumably, all of these students are eighteen. I understand that the minimum voting age in Taiwan is twenty, but at least in the U.S., these students would be considered “adults.”

          The civilized way of doing this would be, as I said, protesting in the streets and writing to the students’ legislative representatives. Breaking into the Legislative Yuan and destroying public property is not civilized at all, and I don’t find it surprising that the same people who trash the mainland Chinese for being uncouth and unmannered are praising some Taiwanese for bad behavior.

          • mr.wiener

            Why not?
            The old generation of protesters are the one who helped bring about democracy in Taiwan against the KMT when Taiwan was a dictatorship. Compared to a Korean protest this is small beer indeed.
            I won’t do the quote about the tree of liberty needing to be water by the blood of patriots and tyrants, instead I’ll say occasionally the government must listen harder to the voice of all it’s people even if the next election is some years away.

          • Alex Dương

            You shouldn’t handwave bad behavior from adults by saying they’re “young.” If these students really think they’re better than mainland Chinese, they should make their actions consistent. I didn’t say protesting was wrong; I only said protesting doesn’t have to involve breaking into the Legislative Yuan and destroying public property.

            Do you think the Tea Party would’ve been favorably received by as many Americans as it was had they tried to physically force their way into Congress?

          • mr.wiener

            Actually up until last night it’s all been very civilized. The cops are letting people bring them pot noodles and water, the students have said they were sorry for any violence. Many police have gone home because they had caught colds and the students have already cleaned up most of the broken glass.

          • Alex Dương

            That wasn’t mentioned above. I don’t know how objective your statements are, but OK.

          • mr.wiener

            Things got nastier last night [me and the missus stayed up watching the news] when some idjits who reckoned the students at the legislative yuan were to soft core tried to storm the executive yuan.
            Many of these people did NOT look like students, I’m smelling professional troublemakers or even govt types.

          • Razorl

            Give you a hint, some student leader in 6.4 1989 Beijing now join these school boys….

      • Dick Leigh

        The government was the first to act undemocratically by reneging on a promise to hold a public review of the legislation they forced through parliament.

        You don’t quietly write to your leaders for democracy, you have to fight for it. Good on these students!

        • Alex Dương

          I didn’t say don’t protest. I said protest in the streets. Protesting does not require that you break into the Legislative Yuan and destroy public property. That IS uncivilized and brutish. Protesting in the streets need not be.

          • don mario

            they did. for months. so you think passing a shady law in 3 minutes and going against what you have previously agreed on is civilised and gentle do you?

            not to mention the protests were peaceful anyway, fo the most part.

        • don mario

          exactly. what did the people who support this agreement do? jack shit. just a few gangsters showed up and waived around some knives and swords.. yet the students get the bad rep? fuck that.

      • don mario

        they protested for months before they were driven to this by their government bypassing democracy themselves.

    • don mario

      mainland students don’t protest because they will be shot to death and rolled over with tanks.

  • lacompacida

    Great. There is still hope in Taiwan, unlike the other country, with brain washed submissive slaves as youth.

    • yawei Li

      yes, hope the best for taiwan

    • Irvin

      They’re brainwashed enough to go protest against something that would benefit their economy.

  • wnsk

    Four words: 焚书坑儒

  • Wodowsan

    Why would they protest? I was told by a Party member in China that all Taiwanese want to be part of China.

    I told her I lived there for nine years and knew a lot of Taiwanese that do not want to be part of China.The fact that she had never been to Taiwan and never met someone from Taiwan did not deter her from her convictions. I was wrong. She explained to me. She knew what was in the hearts of people she never met.

    • yawei Li

      Party member is a joke

    • firebert5

      You’re still wrong. This is all western propaganda designed to divide the Heavenly Kingdom.

  • Roger Daily

    Are Taiwanese girls good in bed?

    • mr.wiener

      Think Chinese with a veneer of Japanese manners on top.

      • Irvin

        I’m not talking your word for it, I’m gonna find out for myself.

        • mr.wiener

          As well you should.

          • Irvin

            >:) I’m here hoping what you said its true, hearing a girl say “wo yao” in the style of “yamade” does sounds intriguing.

    • Wodowsan

      It depends how good you are in bed.

    • don mario

      on a superficial level they are better looking i’ll say that much.

      any other advantage over chinese girls is up for debate.. but for looks alone they score high!!!!

  • RothschildIsMoney

    This is the typical “everything that have to do with China is always evil” thing. Those people know absolutely nothing about the agreement. It is a basic free market trade agreement.

    Taiwan currently has discriminatory laws against Chinese. As we all know, protectionism is not always the best for the country’s economy. This agreement is about opening investment between the Taiwan & China. Which is actually good for Taiwan’s economy and more job creation. But the DPP is being protectionist and wants to block free market access to Taiwan, this has been shown time and time again to be terrible for Taiwanese middle class.

    In a time where the rest of the world are globalizing and opening up to China, there’s no reason why Taiwan, with all of its advantages with respect to China, should be lagging behind. But hey why would those protester care about the facts – just hate on – racists.

    • mr.wiener

      An old Taiwanese man once told me:
      How would you feel if you opened your door one day and a 300 pound gorilla was outside and said “Hey brother I really like the way you have looked after our house, what’s for dinner?”

      • Alex Dương

        So all mainland Chinese want to move to Taiwan?

        • mr.wiener

          No, Business, as I have already said. Which will be fine for big business , but probably suck for small business. If there is ever to be a union between Taiwan and China it’s going to take a long engagement…not a shotgun wedding.

          • Irvin

            Then the only small business that survives would be the ones that are most efficient and competitive, regardless if it’s local owned or FDI it would be better for the consumers and the limited resource of the world. How is that a bad thing?

          • Rick in China

            You don’t know how business works beyond ideals, do you? The survivors are not necessarily the “most efficient” or “most competitive”, or “most effective” or “best value delivered to customer” or any other ideal metrics which SHOULD launch businesses to the forefront of their markets.. but, often, by who my brother knows, and who their daddy is (corporately speaking), or how ruthless their strategy to push out competitors that are better than them may be.

          • Irvin

            If their competitors ARE better than them then they wouldn’t be pushed out would they?

          • Rick in China

            I’m confused. Did you mean AREN’T? If you meant ARE (as emphasised), then I don’t see the logic in the statement. What I’m saying is “better” as a metric is often not efficiency/competitive/effective/value/etc driven, but rather, circumstantially who has gov’t/big business backers/who doesn’t give a shit about seedy tactics or corporate subterfuge/etc on their side.

          • Irvin

            All I’m saying is let natural selection decide and let the chips fall where they might. If the local business is better as you claimed then they got nothing to worry about.

          • Rick in China

            You have no idea what I said in these posts, do you. That is my *whole point Irvin*, in reality, “better” doesn’t mean “survives”, due to many negative reasons.

          • Irvin

            maybe it’s true, you do seems to have a problem with expressing yourself.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            The fundamental point you are making is not wrong, these are economic theories- e.g. in a simplified example- if you or I lived in a country where all businesses were owned by one or a few companies, then those companies might be successful in the short run but in the long run they will stifle competition, eliminates entrepeneurship and make it harder for smarter people with less money to compete in that industry. This is bad for the overall economy. You could also note how Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg were both able to start new companies, they started out small but, because the entire internet/computer industry was not monopolized, were able to bring new innovative businesses to the table.
            The argument is over state-owned companies versus laissez faire economics. If you believe the former is better that is fine, but most in the west think the latter is better in most circumstances.

          • Irvin

            I just don’t believe in artificially holding back efficiency in favor of the weak.If we still cater our law and regulations to weaker businesses then we may not have the assembly line and cottons threads would still be made by hand.

            Necessity is the father of invention, if the people are truly smarter and have a more efficient business then they wouldn’t need incentive to be successful. Sometimes innovation have to be forced, if we can keep to old ways and be successful maybe new ways would never be conceived.

            Maybe Bill Gates will be selling burgers now if mcdonals didn’t exist.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            I think where we differ is on the idea of “weaker” businesses. You seem to be including “small” business in that definition. Every business starts out small- starbucks, apple, etc., they might seem weak at the beginning but actually they are not.

          • Irvin

            Oh no, I never claimed that small business can’t be strong. What I argue is just the opposite, I’m saying that make it so that small business Have to be strong to compete.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            OK, well i think we might be somewhere on the same page then lol

          • Kai

            Rick in China is saying what is a “better” business (for consumers) is not always the business that survives. For example, a coffee shop may have the best coffee beans, baristas, and service ever but Starbucks can still marginalize them out of business through a variety of methods. One presidential candidate may be better for the people, but if the other one has the means to assassinate him? If the other one has more money? More connections? No one is disagreeing with the idea that competition is generally a good thing, they’re just saying regulation isn’t always a bad thing either.

          • Irvin

            If in your example that the coffee shop does get run over by starbucks then they’re not that competitive in the first place or the people really wanted starbucks after all. Where there’s a demand there would be a supply.

            Because in a free market anyone can enter but only the most efficient and effective can survive. The small local business just afraid they can’t compete.

            I still remember they used to want to charge us for a net browser (netscape). M$ ran them out of business by giving us free internet explorer and we’re better for it that’s all I’m saying.

          • Kai

            I feel like what you’re saying is that you won’t recognize Rick in China’s point as being able to coexist with yours. Free trade ideals only work in systems with perfect information. So long as perfect information is impossible, free trade cannot be guaranteed to always result in the most efficient and effective to survive unless you employ circular reasoning.

            Dude, pretty much everything that needs to be said about this is here:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade

          • Irvin

            So what do you propose? we get rid of free trade? Although free trade cannot guarantee anything (nothing can guarantee anything) it is still the best way we have right now on attaining efficiency.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            the point is there is more than one point of view on free trade, that is all. No one is saying you are wrong, we are just telling you that there are different theories.

          • Irvin

            I’m not saying there isn’t more than one point of view, I’m saying that the point of view that benefit more people and is better in the long run is mine.

          • Alex Dương

            Full disclosure: I was an econ major for my undergrad. I disagree with that sentiment. “Better” is subjective, and people make trade-offs. The hypothetical coffee shop in your example probably charges more for a cup of coffee than Starbucks does. It could be that everyone agrees that it has better coffee. But not everyone would agree that the increase in quality is worth the increase in price. So Starbucks doesn’t “marginalize” it out of business; consumers do.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            Alex, I agree with you, but you must have also studied market failures, in which larger competitions marginalize competition and no longer provide a better service. Starbucks is not a great example, but it could be if it had a full monopoly.
            In theory, this is true. But of course there are always holes and complexities which make every circumstance a little bit different. In some circumstances a better, larger company is better like you say, in others it is a lumbering giant spewing out worthless crap and keeping others from producing a better product.

          • Alex Dương

            I think the best examples of market failure are with public goods and failures to consider externalities. In this context, I don’t think market failures are that common.

          • Kai

            I understand your disagreement; yes, “better” is subjective, and yes, consumers are ultimately deciding the fates. I didn’t however think it would be this hard for Irvin to understand the point that competition is not always fair and thus free trade is not always desirable, which is why China itself has protectionist policies for so many of its industries. Being able to understand why China does that should give people pause for dismissing Taiwanese protectionist worries by lauding the virtues of free trade. I mean, come on, that’s just asking to be accused of playing dumb.

          • Alex Dương

            I agree with you here that free trade is not always desirable. As you mentioned, China has protectionist policies, and as I recall, Taiwan and South Korea both had some degree of protectionism during their “Tiger” days. “Free trade is good” is as much an oversimplification as “they took our jerbs.”

          • Kai

            I’m pretty sure they still do.

          • Alex Dương

            Yes, I think they are both less protectionist than they once were. Neither is considered a “free” economy by Heritage, but at the same time, the level of protectionism in both countries is modest enough that both are “mostly free.”

          • Irvin

            Fair is subjective, what seems fair to the small business maybe be unfair to the larger ones. “free trade is not always desirable” undesirable to who? Everything depends on which side you see it from.

          • Kai

            Yes… and you’ve just answered your own question: “How is that a bad thing?”

          • Irvin

            And protecting small and less efficient business through unfair regulations is just criminal.

          • Kai

            Not for a government beholden to the expressed interests of its constituents.

          • Alex Dương

            Nepotism can get you a job. It can’t magically let you hold on to that job forever if your business isn’t competitive. And pushing out “better” competitors? I’d like an example of this.

          • ScottLoar

            Especially true in Asia where devoid of the separation of government and business (yes,that’s true) which in capitalist countries by common practice and law (look to anti-monopoly laws) follow the principle of comparative advantage, Asian countries use state corporatism to advance their industries. In other words, most Asian countries practice mercantilism, and the exemplar is Japan.

          • Rick in China

            True points, but the separation of government and business in the US is absolutely nonexistent as well. The “revolving door” between big business and government officials (ie one term work for sachs, one term work in financial regulation, oh, look, I think it’s in the best interest of the American economy to change regulation in Sach’s best interest, no conflict of interest here!), massive political donations (I think in many states you can “buy” senators for around $40k USD, surprisingly low, many many examples), and awarding of contracts that is horribly sided towards those who, often via things like superpacs, donate most to the candidates who have the capability of granting those awards. It’s amazing some of the ROI these companies can get – thousands of percent ROI. I can only imagine if it’s that bad in the states, how bad it is here – where I don’t have the same insight to see the individual cases….it certainly *feels* far worse.

          • ScottLoar

            I will not allow disagreement to impinge upon the respect for you I have gained through disagreement (that is not idle flattery), but I was intimate to the buying of a corporation disallowed by various European entities as well as the US government for reason it would enable the buyer an unreasonable share of the market without effective competition, i.e. allow the buyer an advantage that could be defined as “monopoly”.

            No matter popular opinion, the facts are the US does not tolerate monopolies; witness the break-up of one of the most effective and low-cost service providers in US history for well-nigh 100 years, ending in the early 80’s by USA government decision to disallow Bell Telephone’s continuance, and so enter MCI and a host of other service providers who by court-ordered intervention entered into and used Bell Telephone’s own wiring service in Bell’s most profitable markets. In other words, these interlopers gained unfair advantage at Bell’s expense, and by federal court order no less. This ended Bell Telephone’s subsidies of less frequented and more remote markets to the general disadvantage of phone users.

            This post should also answer Alex Duong’s
            (sorry about omission of the hypercritical marks) request for example of “pushing out ‘better’ competitors”.

          • Rick in China

            Oh – there is no disagreement, my point wasn’t related to monopolies, that’s an entirely different issue and on that I’m certain you’re right.

            My point was on gov’t corruption providing enormous benefit to specific companies who lobby and “buy” politicians via what I call the revolving door – ie, change a regulation in my favor to give me an unfair advantage now, because when you’re ready to retire from X position in the government, you’ve got a 7 figure “consulting” gig with my company! Then later – same said official often re-enters political position/appointment as regulator which influences policy towards the industry that their private company belongs to, again allowing for the same kind of policy/regulation manipulation to give them an unfair advantage. Similar to the regulations, the same revolving door applies to the awarding of gov’t contracts, tax breaks, and other benefits which are often applicable to one company more than another, offering unfair advantage. A recent example I heard of like, yesterday:

            Marathon, oil and gas company, given something like 175 million in tax breaks after striking a deal with detroit politicians (mayor I think?). Within the deal they said they would ‘do their best’ to hire locally and ‘intend’ on offering & integrating with the education system to bring new people into the productive technical workforce. They did, they gave away ~150k USD to around 30 something people as scholarships. They increased their workforce by several hundred people. How many were increased as a result of detroit hires? 15. So they hired 15 people and gave 150k USD away in scholarships, in exchange for like 175 million USD in tax breaks. Not a bad return on investment, is it? Companies with lobby do this shit all the time, and it kills their competition who decides not to partake in absolutely duplicitous behaviour, it’s hard for a better company to compete while maintaining integrity and fairness, that’s the sort of direction I was going – nothing about monopolies :)

          • ScottLoar

            We’ll talk one day.

          • Kai

            Many of the protesters seem to recognize the agreement as being beneficial for Taiwanese big conglomerates but worry about local small-medium businesses. The question is, given how small the Tawianese market is, what sort of small-medium Taiwanese businesses are going to be crowded out by what kind of Chinese competitors?

      • Insomnicide

        Considering how many businesses in mainland China are owned by and are profiting Taiwanese people, I’d say it’s pretty fair to give the mainlanders a shake of the sauce bottle.

        • mr.wiener

          True, but the Taiwanese investment primed the pump for China’s industrial boom.

          • ScottLoar

            I would like to argue at some point that besides the anomaly of Wenzhou’s development in the 70’s which really only affected the domestic mainland China market it was Shenzhen’s development by Hong Kong shirt makers in the 70’s that showed the way to mainland China’s prosperity and inspired reforms by Deng Xiaoping who had visited the place. Shenzhen’s development was prompted by quotas on the Hong Kong garment industry who understood that the quotas for mainland China could not be filled by mainland factories and so moved to Shenzhen, literally putting every thread, button, scrap of material and sewing machine in place to manufacture shirts Made in China and so not under Hong Kong’s quota. Shenzhen’s rise, then, is owed to US quotas imposed on Hong Kong shirt makers and not to one Deng Xiaoping’s vision.

          • mr.wiener

            Fair enough.

          • Insomnicide

            Deng Xiaoping was also influenced by the Yangtze delta triangle. The region used to be known as the land of fish and rice in ancient times. The prosperity of the area for thousands of years is owed due to it’s economic freedom and innovation.

          • ScottLoar

            I can’t easily accept so. Since the Ming Dynasty when we have verifiable records Guangdong has been the most prosperous province, then the area 江浙一帶 which under the Qing Dynasty was always suspected of treasonous tendencies (see Treason by the Book, Jonathan Spence, and elsewhere). 魚米之鄉 is by reason of fertility exploited by diligence, and not because of government neglect.

            Of course as a Chinese Deng Xiaoping well understood the wealth of Guangdong and 江浙一帶, but the creation of Shenzhen, a border “nothing” transformed into the wealthiest part of China (I saw Shenzhen nouveau riche [暴發戶] swagger in Shanghai’s 5-star hotels in the early 90’s on the hunt for babes) was wholly the consequence of reasons far beyond and outside native and government disposition. Shenzhen’s wealth, like that of pre-War Shanghai, is owed to reasons far beyond China’s party or local control. This is not unique; I can quote similar examples from history.

          • Insomnicide

            In general the region which encompasses the Yangtze river is very wealthy, especially compared to the rest of China. It’s abundant in resources, filled with fertile soil, less restricted by central government authority in their economic development. I’d say Guandong has a distinct advantage of being the southernmost port and critical checkpoint of maritime trade routes. It is debatable if it’s completely owed to the lack of government control because there are various reasons why they are so prosperous and wealthy. For example compared to other regions, Guangxi which is one of the poorest regions in China despite having little government control over their economic development.

            Also in the Tang dynasty the most prosperous region was Shan’xi, in the Song dynasty the most prosperous region was Henan. The prosperity of regions change with time and circumstances.

          • ScottLoar

            By quoting Shan’xi I well understand you know the history and regions, but let’s return to the point of disagreement. I maintain Shenzhen grew and prospered because of Hong Kong shirt makers’ investment, and unlike you not because of government ignorance. This is an important distinction between us: Government ignorance is the cause of Wenzhou’s rise but not that of Shenzhen.

            I feel as if we are arguing about how many angels can stand on a pinhead. We’d do better by understanding how much we agree rather than recount disagreements.

        • don mario

          oh its fair is it? so how about all the taiwanese pop stars who supported this protest who are now banned from performing in the mainland? china don’t play fair and everything is political. what is fair about that?

          • Insomnicide

            So mainland Chinese people should stay in poverty forever and never try to economically advance themselves or else it’s unfair for Taiwan?

          • don mario

            they should do it on equal terms that are not tied to politics.

          • Insomnicide

            It’s not political, although now the political affairs regarding the two straits have been thrown in. Regardless, China’s economy would tower over Taiwan anyway. The sheer scale and growth of the China will always make China the economic central. Taiwanese money circulating back into the mainland is rather fair considering how much they’ve profited from the mainland and how long the mainland Chinese have been suffering in poverty. Politics or no, they shouldn’t deprive the mainland of economic freedom where they were generously granted.

          • don mario

            “It’s not political”

            2000 missiles say otherwise.

          • Insomnicide

            What does this have to do with economics?

          • don mario

            everything. they are not seperate- in this situation. if you think they are you a naive and ignorant fool.

            if they were then why not take the missiles down and agree to trade on fair terms?

            how many missiles do china have pointed and ready to fire at the rest of the world that they have an economic relationship with?

          • Insomnicide

            Trade on fair terms? Free trade is trade on fair terms.

            China only has missiles pointed at Taiwan and Japan. And China has an economic relationship with just about every country in the world. So there’s nothing do with missiles and economics, stop being so ignorant.

          • don mario

            proves my point doesn’t it.

            if you want to debate whether china does not intend to take over taiwan, using force or otherwise (economic means) then that is another discussion entirely. one i wont be contributing to, so go and waste your time debating that with someone else please.

          • Insomnicide

            It doesn’t prove your point because it doesn’t change anything about economics.

          • don mario

            yes it does. they don’t have missiles pointed at the rest of the world. japan is not threatened that if they declare independence they will get fired on.

            i don’t have anything to prove. china have stated explicitly that they will use force if necessary and use economic means preferably to achieve ‘re’unification. its not a rumour, its not a secret. its a clearly stated intent. if you want to defend your statements find something the ccp have said that proves otherwise.

          • Insomnicide

            Reunification or not, the economic circumstances are the same. Even if China forgets reunification, Chinese economy will still be more powerful and potent than the Taiwanese economy by tenfold. It’s just the natural capabilities and scale of operations of the Chinese economy. There is no fair or unfair to speak of, China will benefit and Taiwan will benefit, that’s the purpose of free trade. Equal footing in economic relations only works with economies on the same scale and ability. Like China and America for example.

          • don mario

            ok well it appears i have wasted my time writing reply’s to someone who hasn’t even bothered to read the agreements(which massively favours china).

            thats pretty funny that you think anyone has fair trade in china actually. does the USA demand a 50% partnership of chinese business in america? how about a limit of how many chinese films can be released per year? how about a ban on any chinese pop stars if they say anything political against the usa?

            china does not play by the rules, we all know this. everyone just looks over it to milk that golden tit while it lasts.

          • Insomnicide

            It’s favouring the bigger economy, it seems you only see it as China trying to cut down Taiwan. Any large economy establishing economic relations with a significantly smaller one will try to make the best of it. China isn’t the first, and surely won’t be the last.

            The USA doesn’t demand a 50% partnership of Chinese businesses in America because there aren’t many Chinese (PRC) businesses in America, and they will not be able to penetrate the US industry as easily as a post-growth stage US global corporate giant could enter China.

            And America hasn’t banned any Chinese popstars because the average American doesn’t even give enough shit about Asian pop music let alone care about what Chinese popstars say. Even if Chinese popstars make any commentary, there’s rarely any that makes blatant anti-US commentary.

            China doesn’t play by the rules, neither do any other great powers. Rules are made by the winners. If a different country was the world power, the rules would be a completely different story.

          • don mario

            what the fuck are you talking about? an agreement that is unbalanced is a good agreement that favours both equally? take a lot at what you are saying or stop trolling me please.

            nonsense in your last part too, if china were the winners why are they letting america stand in their way to take taiwan and start war with japan?

          • Insomnicide

            Yes, favours both equally because it’s creating job opportunities and reviving the stagnate Taiwanese economy.

            China aren’t the winners, yet. You should do a bit of historical research, i’m of course referring America. The rules are decided by America because it’s the world power, both economically and militarily. Rules are very flexible, especially in economics. If America did not make their rules, then some other power would have created very different rules.

            And cry about balance or unfairness elsewhere, they’re doing real world business it’s not Monopoly.

          • don mario

            you should learn to understand NUMBERS.

            and stop typing pure drivel.

          • Guang Xiang

            oh shut the fuck up, it’s painful just seeing your attempt at debating.

          • don mario

            Oh what a surprise! Chinese guy starts swearing and posting drivel at logical criticisms of china. It’s sad, it really is.

          • Guang Xiang

            Well surprise, I’m Taiwanese and so are my parents. It just shows how quick you are to assume situations just cause I used the Pinyin form of my name and how you should not be taken seriously in any civil discussion. But let me explain a bit from my perspective.

            I come here to see both sides of the issues, and what I find so far is you swearing and debating logically (if you could all it that) in the most one sided and aggressive manner. You think real debates start with ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about’ or ‘i’m wasting my time’. Grow up

          • don mario

            if you are taiwanese you should be fucking ashamed of yourself to come on here and slag off a laowai defending your FREE(not for much longer) people. because i am in a small percent of people on here who actually know the ins and outs of this story and didn’t just turn up to insult taiwanese for being xenophobic.

            i’m not surprised though, so don’t try to say that i am. i have lived in taiwan. i know that most taiwanese are ignorant. i have to deal with ignorant taiwanese mongs everytime i want to cross the road and not be dead by the time i reach the other side.

            who said this is a civil discussion? i have explained many times that this is a black and white issue… you are correct, this IS a 100% one sided issue. if you don’t see it that way then congratulations, you are dumber than you look. enjoy your fucked up democracy-less future. i won’t stick around in taiwan to see it.

          • Guang Xiang

            Being Taiwanese means I should stand at the side of Taiwanese with nationalistic fervor? What a joke, asking me to treat you like some savior to the Taiwanese. Arrogance much?

            So living in Taiwan makes you an expert on Taiwanese people? Shit man, that must make me an expert for Americans, Taiwanese, Honkees, and Chinese.

            You know the ins-and-outs of this story? Are you some political guru? Do you really think an issue can be black and white? Get real, you’re just another regular Joe slogging the interweb.

            You are right about one thing, Taiwan is inevitability going to be consumed by China, but we won’t miss you when you leave.

          • don mario

            as a taiwanese you should stand at the side of retaining your hard earned freedom. but i guess you prefer to stand at the side of sucking the commie dick? if you prefer i can treat you as a xenophobic asshole as the rest of the people on here are? would you prefer that? that would be pretty easy for me to do, considering all the shit i faced from taiwanese for being a white guy being with taiwanese girls.

            when did i say it made me an expert? anyone who has been in close proximity to a road in taiwan can come to the same conclusion that your country has a large percentage of ignorant wankers.

            i know the ins and outs of this story.. because i have followed the news mr smarty pants.. this particular article only showed one angle of it, which led people here to only see the -taiwanese are xenophobic against chinese- angle.

            yes, an issue of this importance can, and is black and white. heres another issue that is black and white: taiwanese need to learn how to drive. taiwanese are incredibly shit, dangerous and selfish drivers and they need to sort it out. there is no grey area!

            oh i think you will miss me and all the other laowais who pack up and leave. because you will have to find a new group of people to make ridiculous news storys and gossip about..

          • Guang Xiang

            Judging by your tirade over trivial matters such as being with Taiwanese girls, driving, and what not, I suppose you really got brainwashed by Taiwanese media, which in of itself, is a joke. You have the exact mindset to act more on emotions than your brain. Following the news is the first step to developing a biased complex. And in a media as gossipy as this one, you certainly became quite the example.

            For the record, I have nothing against laowai, especially since I’m technically one too.

            Yea, being in Taiwan, I agree Taiwanese are mostly ignorant, hence the nonsensical decry over big bad China. But your way of absolutes will get you nowhere.

            Finally, I never said I agree with this cross-strait FTA, but alas, you just love to make assumptions.

          • don mario

            call it absolutes if you will, i call it learning from experience and common sense. and no, it will not get me, nor anyone else nowhere. it will get me to stay alive when crossing the street in taiwan.

            it will save me(and has) from being fucked over when doing business with chinese -or taiwanese. you guys are just as shady when it comes to business(i learnt that through experience, not through being emotional).

            and it will stop a democratic country from being swallowed by a massively corrupt 1 party state with one goal in mind.

            that is pure common sense and logical thinking.

            thinking with your emotions is what gets greedy bastards to think about chinese investment money and forget just WHO they are dealing with and WHAT they have done in the past and WHAT they will continue to do in the future. if you have an emotional reaction to this COMMON SENSE then i’m sorry about that, i guess it hits close to home. the truth hurts right?

            interesting logic you have. by showing examples of how taiwanese are xenophobic (and hey, i’m a good laowai, don’t get me started on how those asians from poorer countrys are treated in taiwan) it must mean i am brainwashed by taiwan media? OK THEN.

            actually i would say more taiwanese are backing this trade than not. the only taiwanese from the ones i know who are fully against it are people who have lived and studied in the west.

            you either support taiwan’s freedom of democracy or you support sucking off china’s dick and selling out your own country. there are only 2 choices here…

          • Guang Xiang

            You are so all over the place that I had to structure this piece by piece…

            lol, dat logic: “Learning from experience and common sense will stop a democratic country from being swallowed by China.” You really are naive if you think that’s all it takes.

            lol, nice deflection: I was talking about YOU being an emotionally charged person. The truth hurts right?

            about my ‘interesting logic’, that was sarcasm and I suppose it was not obvious. I was just playing on how you think Taiwanese people are ignorant yet you believe that these protesters know what they are doing and not simply being xenophobic over the issue.

            I am not saying your brainwashed by media to be like Taiwanese; I’m saying you’re affected by the media’s style of tantalizing articles that play on emotions rather than stating the facts. I suggest you stop watching any Taiwanese media.

            And no, local Taiwanese do not support this trade; it hurts the lower class and only helps the elite. And no, people who lived and studied in the west are not against it, but sees it as part of globalization trends. How do I know? Cause I’m one.

            Life must be simple for you when it’s just black and white. For your last paragraph, why can’t there be people who support Taiwan’s freedom but have to accept the inevitable. Add a bit of grey in your life.

          • don mario

            yea you were talking about me, but you were wrong. which i pointed out. you are the one who is actually having an emotional reaction to the strong points i have made. maybe you need to practice you chinese dick sucking a bit better so your feelings wont get hurt by hearing the truth in the future.

            i believe my friends who are against these deals are less ignorant than the average taiwanese.. like i said, they have had time in the west. outside of taiwans islander mindset. the students means well but they are students. they are not yet apart of the system of falling in line. what will really show how people feel is a protest made up by working people.

            try to read what i say please. i have watched minimal taiwanese media. this is a story about china. my opinion was already formed about china before i ever stepped foot in taiwan. i lived in china years before i ever knew the first thing about taiwan. living there has not altered this.

            as to your last paragraph.. the reason you cannot have grey is not down to you. its down to the CCP. you really think this is a grey issue to them? are you really that naive and stupid? well, you have made it obvious that you are so don’t answer that. look pal, i understand you don’t have a backbone and many of your countrymen don’t either. but i do so deal with it.

            and you really proved my point about how ignorant taiwanese can be when you said driving was a trivial issue.

            is it? is it really? when you are driving like a maniac with no concern for anyone other than yourself you are responsible for other drivers and pedestrians lives. the fact that you think it is a trivial matter shows how much of an irresponsible, immature and selfish person you (and much of your countrymen) are. thanks for helping me prove my point there.

          • Guang Xiang

            You know what, we’re done here. Just spend some time to reflect a bit on yourself and look back at the kind of vitriol you write, how you can be less emotional in your behavior, seeing things so black and white with absolutes, stereotyping people and situations, etc.

          • don mario

            how about you spend some time to grow an backbone? and try to control your emotional responses when harsh truths about your country and your peoples responsibility’s are exposed.

          • cantonizi

            Hold them horses, didn’t Obamao make Taiwan the 52 state 5 years ago?
            So why would Taiwan want to be independent for, Obamao says it is illegal anyways?
            And the more missiles aimed at Taiwan means more arms the US will want to sell Taiwan, means lots of US jobs too.

          • don mario

            how are they gonna sell them missiles if they are economically reliant on china? they have banned certain taiwanese pop stars from performing in china due to commenting on these protests. others are keeping their traps shut, why? because they are economically relying on china.. whats gonna happen when china says no, taiwan, don’t buy those missiles or we cut off this this and this..

          • mr.wiener

            Weapons contracts with Taiwan have been stalled for the last 10 years, apparently America thinks good relations with China are worth more than some chump change from Taiwan for F16 parts.

      • Dick Leigh

        Damnit I tried to mouse-over to see the Chinese and it wasn’t working. Thought something was wrong with my computer. :P

      • cantonizi

        It’s more like one day a western man living in a Chinese home for a long while goes answer the door and finds the Chinese husband has come home and says “thanks for raising the family and making the improvements to the house, so who owns what?”

        • mr.wiener

          So Taiwanese are westerners now?
          I’ll have to tell them all, they’ll be so pleased…but probably a little confused.

    • Agreed

      “everything that have to do with China is always evil”

      This pretty much. Where were these protestors when Taiwan was signing free trade agreements with other countries?. IMO, only reason they’re protesting this agreement is because the other party is the China. Everything China does is scrutinized, like the gov’t/people is incapable of anything positive. Seems like innocent until proven guilty applies to everyone but China/Chinese. Really sad to see the human race devolve to such a state. A real shame.

      • don mario

        really sad to see a huge amount of people ignorant to the fact that china intends to unify with taiwan and they will stop at nothing until it is achieved. this is the only acceptable outcome for them.

        really sad to see the human race devolve into such a state where they SUPPORT a one party authoritarian state devouring a free democracy.

    • Zappa Frank

      the difference is pretty much that no other country want to rule other taiwan, they are just scared that this agreement is the begning of something else i guess.

      • xiaode

        yes, I also think so.

        But this mentality / thinking: “everything that have to do with China is always evil” is not just coming from nowhere….

        I am not saying this is completely right / correct behavior, but I can understand a little bit where this is coming from.
        Maybe the Mainland Chinese should think about and reflect how it is possible that so many Chinese people (!!) in Taiwan and HK don´t want to have anything to do with their brothers from the Mainland!

        • Kai

          They do.

          • xiaode

            They do what? Ok, maybe saying they dont want to have anything to do with them is too hard. But, it´s clear that they also oppose them in many ways.

            I know a couple of Taiwanese living in SH, they all consider themselves as Taiwanese… and if I call them Chinese, they tell me they are Taiwanese. (that´s at least my experience)

          • Kai

            Mainland Chinese do think about and reflect how it is possible that so many Chinese people in Taiwan and HK don’t want to have anything to do with them. We couldn’t accuse them of having an inferiority complex without them doing so.

          • ex-expat

            Perhaps, but I think that saying they reflect on it is debatable. What do you think they ultimately conclude?

            My perception is that mainlanders often just attribute Hong Kong and Taiwan’s behavior to being ungrateful and thinking 自己了不起. Perhaps it is because of hubris, or the need to preserve face, or both, but in my experience many people on the mainland think that their system and country are truly better.

            On a side note, I noticed that your comments have been pretty balanced…+1!

          • Kai

            No, it isn’t debatable to say they reflect on it. What’s debatable is the character of someone who is too eager to characterize Chinese people in general as unwilling or incapable of reflecting upon how others see them because it makes it easier to dismiss them as a whole.

            Many mainlanders DO attribute the behavior of many in HK and TW as being ungrateful and thinking too highly of themselves, but there’s too much evidence that mainlanders as a whole don’t think “just” that.

            That’s not just uncharitable, it’s almost malicious feigning of ignorance. When someone knows mainland Chinese have a diversity and depth to their resentment with some HK or TW attitudes, oversimplifying it to the shallowest, nuance-less reason is pretty much willful vilification. And that sucks balls.

            Would it be fair for a Chinese person to say their perception is that foreigners just think they’re better than the Chinese to explain why foreigners are critical of the Chinese at times?

            Your experience that many people on the mainland think their system and country are “truly better” is pretty foreign to me. There’s just so much evidence of mainlanders envying and admiring all the things better in HK/TW that it’s completely impossible to generalize mainlanders as thinking that way.

            The inferiority complex of mainlanders is so obvious it hurts. Inferiority complexes pretty much necessitate someone reflecting upon themselves. They find themselves lacking, and the “complex” part is all the things they do in reaction to what they see in themselves and how others see them.

            Mainlanders can be defensive. They can overcompensate, which is what I think you mistake as hubris. It’s like kids who become bullies to mask their own self-esteem issues. People in HK are richer but.. but… but… WE HAVE THE GREAT WALL, so there! People in TW have less brutish living conditions but… but… but… WE HAVE A HIGHER GDP, so there!

            How can anyone honestly think this is actual hubris? How can anyone not see it for what it is? That mainland Chinese people quite naturally fear and resent others looking down their noses at them for things they largely were born into? That they may be liable to flail about for something, ANYTHING to comfort their sense of self-worth and dignity (which you exoticize as “face)?

            I think it’s intellectually lazy to conclude mainlanders don’t self-reflect instead of proceeding onto recognizing natural defensiveness. Whether any specific individual can be characterized as not self-reflecting is debatable, whether mainlanders as a whole can be characterized as not self-reflecting is not. The very site we are on is evidence that they do.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            Kai that was very well-said, i totally agree with you.
            Also, not to take away from the seriousness of your reply, but i couldn’t help thinking this sentence combination was pretty funny-
            “oversimplifying it to the shallowest, nuance-less reason is pretty much willful vilification. And that sucks balls.”

          • ScottLoar

            Well said.

          • ex-expat

            An unnecessarily rude and belligerent response. I am not sure why you chose to be that way. I never generalized anything. I was just suggesting the possibility that not all of them actually do reflect on the subject.

            There is a ton of foreign worship in China, I never said otherwise. Though I have met enough that, to me at least, genuinely feel that China is by far the best country in the world.

            Surely you would agree that there is significant nationalism, often excessive, on the mainland, of which one of the definitions is “an extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.” But again, I never said they were all like that.

          • Kai

            I agree, I was being very uncharitable because I saw the end of your first comment as a backhanded compliment and took offense.

            Please take my previous response as responding to anyone who generalizes mainland Chinese people as not reflecting on themselves.

        • Insomnicide

          Of course Uncle Toms want nothing to do with their race. Otherwise they wouldn’t be Uncle Toms in the first place.

        • don mario

          its pretty obvious where it comes from. chinas official pollicy on taiwan is that it is their own province, they are going to unify with china and nothing else is acceptable.

      • don mario

        good guess!

    • Brian227

      The DPP have actually backed the pact and have begun distancing themselves from the students since their demands switched to abandonment of it. The main Green beef with it is that it hasn’t been given the promised clause-by-clause review, largely because the DPP delegates swamped the podium and prevented the reading being carried out. Now that another group of students has tried seizing the Executive Yuan and been met with cops prepared for them, I think we’ll see a cross-Party consensus that radicalism has run its course and it’s time to put the toys away.

    • Don’t Believe the Hype

      Of course it is different. You are comparing apples to oranges. Globalization and free trade only work if one of the countries isn’t constantly threatening to invade the other. Think about if you were signing a free trade agreement with the mainland, wouldn’t you be concerned that they still have Fujian military weapons trained on your island and continue to teach that Taiwan is part of China. When did Japan/ Germany or any other country with free trade agreements with Taiwan threaten to take over Taiwan?

      That is like saying the Ukraine and Russia have a free trade pact. It implies both countries actually have a choice.

      • RothschildIsMoney

        No, there are no apples to oranges comparison. China has not threaten to invade Taiwan for about 2 or 3 political cycles already. Today, China-Taiwan relations have been the warmest since the beginning of the Chinese Civil War. Every recent rhetoric has been to reconcile both politically and economically. Every recent development has been heading towards a peaceful direction. China has given up its economic sanction against countries that trade with Taiwan, and has lifted tariffs on hundreds of Taiwanese goods in a trade deal that intentionally benefits Taiwan, such that Taiwan now enjoys a $100 billion trade surplus with China. China has also expressed willingness to accept the status quo, which is something a majority of Taiwanese at this point would like as well.

        • Don’t Believe the Hype

          *which is something a majority of Taiwanese at this point would like as well*
          typical oversimplification of the situation as well as public opinion, have you been reading too much 环球时报? If you want to be convincing, try not to be so one-sided toward the issue. Understand that not all Taiwanese think the same way.

        • don mario

          “China has also expressed willingness to accept the status quo”

          that means less than nothing. are you are actually that naive to believe that china actually plans to do that? seriously? if so you make me chuckle.. even the definition of status quo in china means to move towards unification.

    • MidniteOwl

      Taiwan has every right to do what the fuck it wants. And the people shall decide by their voices, and if needed, by a few rooms in the Parliament.
      Not everything is about money.

      • RothschildIsMoney

        Storming the Parliament and ask for X, Y, Z demands is not what democracy is all about. It is a mob rule. Not just those protesters out there hardly know why they’re out there, but also hardly represent the true majority of people in Taiwan who support the agreement.

        • don mario

          no, democracy is about shadily signing an agreement in 3 minutes right? and then spreading lies and propaganda about the protesters right? then using police brutality to beat them up, shoot water at the FREE press and beat up elderly and females right? and then selling your hard earned democracy out to a brutal 1 party state who have a lot of money right?

          sir you are right! these protestors just don’t respect democracy! lets beat their heads in with riot shields! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY! FREEDOM FOR ALL!

    • Eric

      Hang on a second…to me, as a Taiwanese this is now a typical “everything that have to do with China is always evil” Hell I have plenty of Chinese friends who share the same thoughts as me. The problem with this whole thing today that triggered this unfortunate protest is that Taiwan as a “democratic” country has democratic ways of doing things, such as when passing a bill, law or agreement you’d expect this to be run over and voted on by the parliament and/or the people, yes? But no, what happened here was our great dear Mr Ma decided that he was going to do this as fast as he can and not run through the usual democratic process. This was when eye brows were raised, such as …whats so special about this agreement that he didn’t want the public to see? Do you get where I’m coming from now?

      So it gets worse, luckily the part of the small democracy we have left allowed us to look at the 64 “free trade” deals that he eagerly wanted to pass through parliament without people noticing. Scarily enough I’ll note 2 of the ones that scares a lot of normal Taiwanese everyday people, one was that Mainlanders can immigrate and become a Taiwan or Chinese Taipei *cough Citizen for a “small” fee and when I say small it’s really not much. But the worst part? There is no LIMIT, wait what? no limit? so all these Mainlanders with some money can just immigrate over with no freaking limit? Hang on a second isn’t our country already quite packed as it is? can we not have a limit? While just like other countries let the good ones immigrate that can benefit the country but just not any??!
      I’m not sure about you, but thats a pretty effing nono to me.

      Now second part…..it allows the Mainlanders to invest in a lot of our businesses while that is great and gives us more money to make things…which some would say…one was rather worrying, so what was it?

      Media…news…TV….oh dear lawd…Are you saying the likes of CCTV can now put money and buy off our already KMT controlled news media in Taiwan and possibly turn some or many Taiwan media outlets into China owned companies based in Taiwan? Wow I’m not sure about you again but I can’t wait to see red Army movies on TV everyday!!

      Ok now think about what I just said and think about Taiwan’s history of China calling it a “breakaway” province and clap 2 times and think why the protest started……

      Of course, in all honesty, I’m quite heart broken that there is a number of Taiwanese themselves that support this and think somewhat that it was ok for an agreement like this to be passed without the normal democratic process and that it is ok to have unlimited mainlander immigrate via a small fee and have our news agencies open up to be bought my China. Of course, some of my Taiwanese friends argue that China wouldn’t be interested in moving their citizens to Taiwan or buy their companies anyway…..For me thou, after hearing this they normally get my backhand in return.

      Ta, first post in chinasmacky, long time reader thou.

      • RothschildIsMoney

        No one is evil. But perception does. World is a concrete black & white if we viewed it from ignorant point of perspective. Where like China is not “democracy” and therefore they are always absolutely wrong. This demonization relies on on a very limited and sometimes very simplistic understanding of China.

        About this issue.. The truth is that Ma decided rather than go through the legislature, he would instead approve the ECFA via executive order. In representative democracy system, this actually a legal right to do. BUT, Ma had previously made a promise that the ECFA would be submitted for approval to the legislature, so Ma is going back on its promise. We all know politicians break promises all the time. It is understandable when certain people being upset with it. However, I don’t see the rationale how people can use democracy to justify occupying government buildings as hostage.

        Now, Taiwan have multiple other trade agreements with various countries, this is just one of them. A lot of these young people who protest are naive. They have equated this trade agreement to becoming a part of China, due to the media. It’s over sensationalist. Everyone is constantly posting how they want to cry, or whatever. The level of grudge and animosity is just incomprehensible and irrational. While I recognize that, YES, the agreement makes it one step closer, it will not result in such. It is one drop in the bucket that might lead to it, but there have been various other drops no one has protested. The protest has resulted in many people using this as a outlet to hate China, some of which has been done in a rude fashion. That it doesn’t really have anything to do with the trade agreement.

        I really sympathize with the hate of China, but you can’t ignore China. Being Taiwanese, my family came from China in the 50s, almost everyone’s did if you go back far enough, any portion of you ancestry that is native Taiwanese is realistically negligible. So a matter like this ticks me off, actually.

        • don mario

          No one is evil. But perception does.

          wow. so evil. much perception.

          does.

        • Eric

          So sounds like your family came in the 50s after losing to the CCP, I am the 7th generations to be born in Taiwan but I don’t think any of this matters.

          You keep speaking of hate towards China, I don’t hate China, the topic of this agreement equating to hate of China is a whole other topic in itself. Yes we can’t ignore China I never think any of us wanted to, but can we ignore the fact our Government that was DEMOCRATICALLY voted by the people decided to rush through something this scale that allows unlimited Chinese immigrations and their right to buy/invest in Taiwanese media companies without letting the people that voted them IN THE FIRST PLACE know any of it through a democratic process ?(Actually please go read on the 64 trade agreements if you already haven’t ) I hope you’re not saying because politicians make mistakes so its ok for Ma to break this promise?

          Sure the students rushing into Parliament ain’t a good thing, again that’s another issue in itself but the main issue is simply on my first reply. My statement is clear and my point is this, the protest happened because as you even said Ma broke his promise and try to rush through something undemocratically. IT is not ok and there are consequences and unfortunately police and students are both hurt from this clash but lets brain storm a bit here and think why this protest even started in the first place? I’ll explain below..

          We are an democratic country, yes? the Government who was voted in democratically has to act and do things like one, yes? IF they don’t, there are consequences so BOOHOO cry me a river about these students acting all undemocratic and shit but excuse me, who decided to go all communist on us in the first place to pass an serious agreement in the most undemocratic way possible and then cry about how the students are not acting democratically by storming the parliament? Well guess what, don’t expect people to NOT storm your house if you suddenly decided you want to change and enforce the rules on their land without asking for their opinions first. I’m not saying storming your house or the student storming the parliament might is right or good but there is a reason for every action taken.

          I don’t see how it’s rational also for an democratic elected Government to do things that isn’t democratic either, so I do agree it isn’t rational for students to storm parliament…but they didn’t go irrational first did they…….

          So please stop it with the China hate thingy, its not about that, for a lot of us and for your information I now have over 30 family members live at the protest peacefully with possible 50 others of my Taiwanese friends sitting outside and they all agree it is about transparency that they want from the Government, the people wants to know and wants a say and they ain’t getting any of it, why? Because Mr Ma and his friends still has not said they will review this agreement STILL as of yet, ohhh and people wonder why the protest is still happening, no shit Sherlock.

          • RothschildIsMoney

            Like i said before, there’s nothing undemocratic in the process. In representative democracy system, that is how it works. Google it if you don’t understand what representative democracy system is. The reality is that these students don’t even represent the majority of students, let alone the population of Taiwan. You know why? Because none of the policies made by political parties you can vote for would represent your ideals accurately either. That doesn’t make them illegitimate though. Look, democracy is far from perfect, but that doesn’t mean you get to disrespect it just because you don’t like the results. And I get the feeling that Taiwanese people are only beginning to awaken to that fact.

            This trade pact obviously benefits Taiwan more, but It is pretty clear that what is going on is fanned by DPP politicians with personal gain, not the welfare of ordinary Taiwanese, in mind. The DPP has successfully twisted the facts and students are ready to swallow it, using it as an excuse to vent anti mainland sentiments. The DPP hate China. And they will oppose anything related to China.

            Taiwan cannot afford to ignore China’s economic presence, politics asides. It has paid dearly the past two decades, and will continue to do so if nothing is done.

          • Eric

            You mean…there is nothing wrong with the part where the ruling government breached the legal procedure and violated the constitutional system along the way just to push the treaty pack? Ma speaks of democracy and constitutional legal system all the time while his acts says exactly the opposite,

            While I’m not going to argue about the DPP “Twisting facts”(LOL I’m sure KMT is all transparent and only cares for it’s people and would never hurt them either!) The students knew they were going to get hurt really bad, yet they stayed, Why do i say this? While you sit in your comfy room in front of your PC I have a few cousins and my own brother there now, they just saw a legislative lady get pulled in by riot police from the ground, 4 min later thrown out unconscious. You fucking tell me this is justified?(Go read the news if you have not already seen a video of this) a gang of Police beating up a helpless woman? While you argue about how Taiwan would be so great with china and we cant avoid it this is whats happening to your OWN people because right or wrong they are standing up for something.

            They are protecting the integrity of our country and the integrity of the constitutional democracy in Taiwan and not about saying a BIG fat NO to everything to do with China, get this right please and that’s an whole other topic as well. The student head had said this clearly, they simply just want to know whats in that agreement and asked them to hold back for now.

            Feb,28,1947 is merely 70 years ago, we had enforcing martial laws till 1987, we fought hard to stand where we are yet you don’t seem to understand this, but I can’t blame you because your family weren’t here before the 50s were they.

            Obviously you have your strong views on whats best for Taiwan, and I have mine, thou unsure about you, I’m flying back in the next 2 days to stand for what I believe in, Are you? I think you should go there and start something you believe in and convince people who the agreement pack that is being passed will be so great for your Taiwan.

      • don mario

        say goodbye to your democracy dude! welcome dictator Ma!

        • Eric

          :(

    • Eddie spaghetti

      China is by far and away the larger economy -the Taiwanese feel threatened
      as if there is no limit on Chinese investment China will buy Taiwan- also they are still officially at war. This is not good for Taiwan’s ecomomy if they lose control of it to a hostile force

    • Teacher in China

      I think that’s a little harsh. The protesters claim this has been rushed through undemocratically. If that’s true, then it’s a huge issue and I’m not surprised that they’re angry about it. Free trade can be an contentious issue anyway (I remember loads of people in Canada in the late 80’s protesting the free trade agreement between us and the U.S.), and if it’s done “on the sly”, it makes it seem fishy, especially when the entity involved is the Chinese mainland. Good for them for standing up for something.

      • don mario

        “If that’s true”

        its true.

      • Eric

        Well yes, most other agreements int he past passed through Government, public have the chance to read on it and so on. This one however was rushed through like a VIP agreement, why would the public not raise an eyebrow? Low and behold out of the 64 free trade agreement came the unlimited immigration agreement allowing mainlanders to immigrate to Taiwan ( i am not saying this is a bad thing) But lets say Taiwan has a awesome health care system which I believe we do, and all the sudden there is no cap to immigration of mainlanders to become a citizen and have access to this.If im not wrong, I think a lot of young HK couples who have had their first born would understand this situation.

        Better yet, an agreement that allows the likes of CCTV to invest or buy our already currently government controlled news media agencies. What do you think Teacher? Should the public who democratically voted this current Government to Govern this country have the right to go through this and have a say?

        I cant comment what is bad or good for the country, but IMO, no matter what agreement or what laws/bills are passed the people should know and have their say.

        • Teacher in China

          I totally agree. Although, like you, I don’t know the details. But it seems like all they want is complete transparency on something that seems fishy. That’s understandable.

    • don mario

      everything you said would be acceptable if it wasn’t for the massive red elephant in the room-

      china intends to unify with taiwan. by force if necessary (2000 missiles say hi) preferably not by force. economic integration will do the job just as well. economic reliance on china will put their backs against the wall when it comes down to china putting pressure on them to unify. anyone who has the ability of foresight can see this agreement absolutely sucks ass and has only one outcome.

      if china had an equal stance on taiwan it would be a different matter and you might have a point. but we all know if that was the case these protests would not even be occuring.

  • firebert5

    I don’t really like the argument, “You’re too young to understand.” That may be true in some cases but I think it’s used for too many situations. If someone doesn’t understand something it’s not necessarily that they are too young. It could be they don’t know all the information or that they simply don’t understand. I get that the implication is that they haven’t learned enough to adequately comment or make value judgments, but it rubs me the wrong way nonetheless.

    • Butsu

      Or the fact they are university students and adults, but in this case treated like kids.

    • Irvin

      You’re too young to make a statement about people being too young. lol

      • firebert5

        Man, foiled by unassailable logic again!

        • Irvin

          On a serious note, age does SOMETIMES comes with it wisdom that the young does not have. Some of the things we learn and enlightenment we have just does not occur until we face adversities of which some age just doesn’t face.

          For example a 10 years old can’t really give one any profound insights regarding to love or a 20 years old regarding to life.

          Somethings you just need to experience before you can reflect.

  • Alex Dương

    I definitely think Hongkongers are on average better mannered than mainland Chinese. I’ve visited Guangzhou and Hong Kong, and Hongkongers form lines when getting on and off the subway, for example, while Guangzhou’ers bump into each other to try to get onboard first.

    So my point is that if these people want to claim they’re better, then they should act like it. Nobody’s perfect, but if you’re going to be judgmental and have a holier-than-thou attitude, you’d better keep a closer eye on these things instead of trying to come up with excuses when you goof up.

  • Alex Dương

    The CCP did not “invent” Han as an ethnicity; that is absurd. China has an imperial past, and consistent with that past, it is a multiethnic country.

  • Butsu

    Haha, there’s not only students protesting this. While the majority inside the buildings (they entered the executive yuan yesterday, but has been beaten to a pulp by riot police. They even smacked doctors with batons right in the face). The people outside the buildings are from all over Taiwan, they’ve had famous people holding speeches, people from all ages has been there. Saying this is only a student riot is making it far too simple. Furthermore, its been extremely peacefu upp till yesterday, police and rotesters helping eachother.

    I think also a lot of people are missing a core point. If we overlook sides (KMT and DPP, Taiwan and China) and who supports each side, the protest essentially broke out because that KMT dude forced the law. If it would’ve went as promised, chances are that these protests never would have started.

    It also took Ma 3 days to say anything at all, which probably irked both sides of the political spectrum, he has come off as extremely weak. Adding to that he didn’t bring answers to the table that the protesters wanted. Basically it turned into a “I am right you are wrong.” By this time the whole protest has been trancsending into something bigger. Support for Ma continues to dwindle when he ordered riot police to watercannon and beat sitting protesters yesterday. The beaters had also removed their uniform numbers on their riot gear making them free from repricuasions. This of course caused clashes on both sides.

    And for all the han-race mumbo jumbo. You gotta remember that the majority of han-chinese immigrated to the island Taiwan long before 1949. They’ve been intermixing with aborginies since what 1600? Their ancestora are probably not turning in their grave because they have no connection to mainland at all, despite being the same race.

    • Kai

      There are legitimate questions and concerns about how the government handled the trade agreement. Unfortunately, protests rarely stay on message as more people join in.

      • don mario

        unfortunately most people replying to this story on china smack didn’t even get what the protests were really about and interpreted it as mostly a xenophobic angle.

  • Gordon Gogodancer

    Perhaps it has nothing to do with not feeling Chinese. Maybe they just insist on their HK or Taiwan identity to point out that they indeed are not like mainland Chinese. I’ve met HK and Taiwan people before, i felt like i could have a nice talk with them like equals whereas with mainland people it’s always the Chinese/foreign comparison and talks about nothing but crap clichés and prejudice.

    • Irvin

      Ideals and morals have to be clashed to mature, the american’s got their civil rights movement which helps both the white and the black see a higher virtue but the chinese only got occupation from foreign entities.

      We are what history made us to be.

  • steviewah

    The real concern is that KMT respect the democratic process when passing the legislation. The KMT already has a majority government, so it was beyond me why they didn’t discuss the trade pact as intended. Anything that goes through legislation needs to be transparent and criticized by the people.

    It’s not a bad thing these students are protesting the trade pact, though they may have gone a bit overboard by storming parliament. The last thing I want is Chinese/Taiwanese people to be is like the Herbivore men in Japan – very passive and nonchalant.

    • don mario

      “so it was beyond me why they didn’t discuss the trade pact as intended.”

      because it was shady.

  • Wodowsan

    There are those in Taiwan that would argue that the Mainland belongs to them.

    • Insomnicide

      Well, that would mean they recognize themselves as Chinese first. Which opens up a whole different can of worms.

      • Wodowsan

        That is my point. Many do, but not all do. I though I hamper a guess that most do not think of the Mainland as belong to them anymore.

      • don mario

        so what is that then? the most obvious can of worms of all time? taiwans official name is the rebublic of china -______-

  • Joe

    The great irony (and the great tragedy) in all of this is that in an attempt to uphold democracy, the students chose to occupy the legislature and thereby preventing the democratic process to continue.

    • Irvin

      The world is ironic that way, in defeating a monster we often becomes that monster ourselves.

      • don mario

        even when they were peacefully protesting gangsters were running around with knives and swords to scare people.. who is the monster here.

    • don mario

      not really, as the system had already failed them by the undemocratic actions of the kmt. the protest was peaceful for the most part too, and organised.

  • Wodowsan

    Pointing out the lack of objectivity in the Party. They will not even acknowledge that their are those that disagree with policies.
    I did not argue that Taiwan was not part of China. I merely pointed out that I knew a lot of Taiwanese that disagree with her absolutism.
    I also know many Taiwanese that do see Taiwan as part of China, but most of them do not want to be under the Party rule of CCP.
    I taught a course in an American University. nearly half my students were from the Mainland, the other half were from Taiwan. The Mainlanders were saying that Taiwan was part of China. The Taiwanese students got very upset with them, all saying they were not.
    I asked the Taiwanese if the Mainland became a democracy, with multiply parties and same freedoms that Taiwan now has would they then be in favor of reuniting with China. All the Taiwanese students in the class said “Yes.”
    The Mainlanders were shocked by this answer.

    • Kai

      I wouldn’t take her as fair representation of the Party any more than I would take a Tea Partier as a fair representation of all American “conservatives”. You met an idiot and should recognize that, while being wary of extrapolating too much from a single data point.

      Regarding your last paragraph, I think you’re overreacting to and exoticizing the “appeal to many” fallacy as used by some Chinese people. They’re just generalizing to reinforce a point. I doubt any of them would insist to the bitter end that 1.3 billion people all think the exact same way. That you exaggerate them as genuinely thinking that is pretty silly. These sort of “appeal to many” fallacies are easily understood in context. They’re just trying to impress upon you their disagreement or some difference they perceive between “us vs them”. Non-Chinese people do this all the time; just look at cS’s comment section.

      Don’t get me wrong though, I agree with you that it can be really obnoxious when people use this sort of fallacy. I worry though that you’re generalizing a behavior or mentality onto an identity unfairly.

      • Wodowsan

        She is not the only example. I had Chinese university professor use absolute statements too. Especially when it comes to the “Sensitive Topics” or also know as the “3T’s”
        One would only need to watch a Chinese talk show where the all the talking heads agree with each other. Or the 7pm news on every national channel that often uses the phrases “everyone knows.” “everyone thinks”

        • Kai

          When a non-Chinese person or perhaps a fellow American says “everyone knows…” or “everyone thinks…”, you automatically caveat it and understand what they mean. Extend the same courtesy to the Chinese instead of taking them too literally, and then presenting that as a meaningful criticism about Chinese people.

          • Zappa Frank

            but usually this doesn’t happen on national channel’s news like Wodowsan said (I’ve never watched)..rather it happens in bars or some talk shows and are said by people short in arguments. However i’ll put this on par with the officers, because in the end are still from the same… Chinese people don’t seem to be more acritic than other country’s people reading comments here.. of course they are overprotective when they talk with foreigners, but even here if you have some close friend they can surprise you..

          • Kai

            “Everyone knows” or “everyone thinks” is a context-setting expression. Remember how many “everyone knows” were thrown around by Canadians criticizing the Chinese people driving a BMW to get grocery gift cards?

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/videos/chinese-in-canada-drives-bmw-to-claim-grocery-gift-cards-reactions.html

            It’s appearance and usage in Chinese TV news reflects context-setting, not any notion that the Chinese are irrationally eager to think everyone literally should know and think the same thing.

          • Kai

            I think you guys are reading way too much into a context-setting expression like “everyone knows” or “everyone thinks” as used by Chinese TV news anchors, which doesn’t even happen that much and I’m pretty sure not appreciably more than in Western TV channel news programs.

          • Wodowsan

            No. The criticism is of the absolutism of a one-party system that controls all media and education.
            I would agree with you that this is fault of most ideologues no matter their nationality.
            This problem is more apparent in China due to the fact of the iron fist control of the Party over issues and their inherent intolerance and even oppressive nature to crush opposing ideas.

    • Insomnicide

      So the mainlanders said they were a part of China, they got pissed off at this comment yet would join China if given the chance?

      I mean, China’s a nation, not a government or party. China has been through many governments, just because people didn’t want to live under a certain government doest not automatically mean they’re not apart of the nation. Take the warlord era for example. No one wanted to live under the Beiyang government, however Chinese nationalism was still growing strong. That’s how the KMT managed to fight back and eventually retake the central government.

      • Wodowsan

        I think we are saying the same thing. From my small sample it seems many Taiwanese have no objection and would be happy to reunify with the mainland. They just do not want to be under the CCP.

        They have been watching closely Hong Kong and most Taiwanese are not happy with the One Country two Systems setup there. Beijing is clearly to them encroaching greatly on the freedoms of Hong Kong people.

        I do though know Taiwanese Nationalist that even if China was a free democratic government they still do not want to be part of China. One could argue that Britain is basically a free democratic government but I do not know any Americans (not saying there aren’t any, I just do not know any) that would advocate rejoining the United Kingdom.

        Although some American women seem to want to have the monarchy here for some strange reason, the way they follow the lives of the royals more so than important current events.

        There is a much larger under current among Taiwanese that still see themselves as Chinese. In many ways I actually felt traditional Chinese culture much more so in Taiwan than I did in China. The Shadow of Mao is too looming in China. Too much of Chinese cultures was damaged and destroyed during the cultural revolution where it wasn’t in Taiwan.

        Even “Taiwanese” opera and puppet shows are still the stories of Chinese kings and heros, not Taiwanese kings.

  • Kai

    Let’s put this to rest please. Taiwan is in the vast majority of practical situations considered a de facto country. Only in a very narrow range of POLITICAL frameworks is it not considered one. Of all the things commonly argued about regarding Taiwan, this is the most pointless.

  • Agreed

    Anyone else see a disturbing trend recently?

    Whenever protestors turn violent, it’s always the gov’t/police’s fault. and the protestors are always the victims.

    And how in the world did this event escalate from a trade agreement to the Ma Ying-Jeou selling out Taiwan?

    Taiwan has loads of trade agreements with other countries. So theoretically according to these protestors’ logic, Taiwan has been bought, paid for and shipped to the buyer years ago.

    Next up, I think the protestors are gonna claim the KMT are in cahoots with the CPC.

    IMO, Order of events goes like this :

    sellout—> traitor/spy —->forced to resign.

    What a genius plab, the DPP must been really proud of themselves.

    • Insomnicide

      It’s hilariously ironic that the KMT and CCP who were at each other’s throats half a decade ago over ideologies couldn’t be any more similar today in their ideologies. The CCP has really assumed the KMT’s mantle on the mainland, in more ways than one.

  • Zappa Frank

    Jeremy Lin has a mother also, and she is Chinese, from mainland china. Strange that you point out that in america people says he is chinese (indeed is ethnic Chinese) while Chinese people went so far to even ask him to forfeit his American nationality to play with the Chinese team..
    by the way Jeremy Lin thinks himself is not Chinese? Maybe you are confusing nationality and ethnic group…
    the international community makes difference if you are from China or another country.. just look at the different requirements for a VISA, or you think it is subject to ethnic group?

  • Zappa Frank

    and when exactly mainlanders did go to protest in this way against their own government?

    • Insomnicide

      Tiananmen Square, that’s an old one.
      Anti-Japanese riots, much more recent one.

      • Zappa Frank

        yes, Tiananmen is 30 years ago.. and anti-japs riots were not against their government..

        • don mario

          can you blame them for not protesting when they will be mullered in the streets for protesting anything other than japanese?

          • Zappa Frank

            but that’s my point, mainlander never did anything like that.. for western standards is perfectly licit to protest in that way against YOUR government, even if not necessary legal… to protest in the same way against OTHER countries with an implicit approvement (if not more) of yours is not the same at all.. than there are no double standards in judgments because are two completely different things..

  • Irvin

    If you’re anti religion wouldn’t you go to a church?

  • Irvin

    people most often mistake “smart” with “idealistic”.

  • Zappa Frank

    we can also argue why ‘white’ is a race, while Asians have Koreans/Japanese/Chinese and so on… should be ‘yellow’.. the difference among whites is nor less than among asians

  • whuddyasack

    I wonder why no one has brought this up. Care should be taken and violence should not be condoned so as to prevent a mockery of democracy.

  • Dick Leigh

    Uh what? Taiwan is not China, Taiwanese are not Chinese. They share (mostly) the same language and cultural heritage, that doesn’t make them same people.

    I was born in North America, sound north american and look pretty much white. Does that mean I’m American? No, I’m Canadian and the world assumes I’m American cuz they can’t tell us apart.

    • Insomnicide

      Taiwanese are ethnically Han Chinese, they all migrated from mainland China and contain the same ancestry. Have the same language, culture and lineage does qualify for them to be the same ethnicity. And they are.

      Does Lin sound like a Mexican surname to you? Or Japanese? That’s oversimplifying it, but everything they have is pretty much Chinese as it gets. Except for their mindset perhaps.

      • Tawhaki

        Well then we are all African. The fact is that they have a different history and a democratic government and like having them, and don’t want any more pressure than they already have to give it up

        • Insomnicide

          Their democratic government also came from mainland China. And it still claims to be China’s government.

          • Tawhaki

            It only became a democracy in Taiwan. In China (and during the first 30 years oppressing native Taiwanese people) it was just as corrupt as the CCP. And the majority of native Taiwanese don’t want that claim, they just want an independent Taiwan, but they also don’t want to be bombarded with over 1000 nukes.

          • Insomnicide

            It became a democracy under the Chinese nationalist government. The native Taiwanese had nothing to do with politics until recently.

          • don mario

            under that logic we can all call ourselves african and call every country AFRICA.

          • Tawhaki

            It started to open up under Jiang Jing Guo, but he died in 88. Lee Deng Hui finally actually held and also won the first election in 96, and he is a native Taiwanese. The KMT view him as a traitor, and the green parties view him as an unofficial founder. There were similar big student protests around 1990 by native Taiwanese, there is even a popular movie “girlfriend, boyfriend” which is set during this time and depicts the protests.

          • Insomnicide

            If they became independent during that time, history would be a different story. However, they didn’t. And today, the KMT government is once again the dominant part of the Taiwanese parliament. They cannot claim independence from China until they stop harbouring the Chinese nationalist government.

            But that all has nothing to do with my point or your argument. They are still ethnically Han Chinese physically, culturally and linguistically. A white person can’t just show up in Africa and claim to be black. They’re Han Chinese. Get over it. Stop trying to twist this fact into some kind of political support for Taiwanese independence. Political allegiance won’t change their skin colour, ancestral lineage, language or culture.

          • Tawhaki

            I think there are a lot of native Taiwanese who would be quite happy if they left and went back to the mainland.

            But ethnicity does not equal nationality. There are Hawaiians in the US, Zhuangzu in China, and ethnic Chinese in Malaysia. And when can you define the point when two ethnicities split, anyway? I would argue that there are a lot more differences between Taiwanese (Or even people from Fujian) and Beijingers than there are between Austrians and Bavarians.

          • Do you think that white Americans who refer to themselves as Americans rather than Europeans are disgraceful self-hating morons?

            “A white person can’t just show up in America and claim to be American. They’re European. Get over it. Stop trying to twist this fact into some kind of political support for American independence. Political allegiance won’t change their skin colour, ancestral lineage, language or culture.”

          • Alex Dương

            Do you think that white Americans who refer to themselves as Americans rather than Europeans are disgraceful self-hating morons?

            No. But you don’t seem to get the point. Let’s make the example a bit more realistic: an Asian American who says “I’m not Asian; I’m white” probably has some self-esteem issues related to self-hate. (The same would apply to a white American who says “I’m not white,” but come on, when was the last time you heard that?)

          • “White” is a skin color. “Taiwanese” is not.

            Taiwanese aren’t denying they’re East Asian.

            “Taiwanese” is a nationality, just like “American”, “Canadian”, “Australian”, “Brazilian”, “Mexican”, “Ukrainian”, “Austrian”, “Swiss”, and numerous other nationalities characterized by willful distinction from an ancestrally, linguistically, and culturally similar parent nation.

            Let’s make the example a bit more realistic: an Asian American who says “I’m not Asian; I’m white”

            Come on, when was the last time you heard that? That isn’t any less ridiculous than your disregarded example of a white American who says “I’m not white”.

          • Alex Dương

            “White” is a skin color. “Taiwanese” is not.

            If you know this, then why did you say “A white person can’t just show up in America and claim to be American” when Insomnicide said “A white person can’t just show up in Africa and claim to be black“? (I bolded the relevant words for emphasis.)

            That’s realistic? Come on, when was the last time you heard that? That isn’t any less ridiculous than your rightfully disregarded example of a white American denying whiteness. No one is denying their skin color or “race”.

            Wow, you must’ve grown up in a very tolerant community if you think that way.

            http://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/1q16u3/did_you_ever_go_through_a_self_hating_phase_how/

          • If you know this, then why did you say “A white person can’t just show up in America and claim to be American” when Insomnicide said “A white person can’t just show up in Africa and claim to be black”? (I bolded the relevant words for emphasis.)

            I was making the same point to him that I subsequently made to you. Taiwanese aren’t calling themselves white; they’re calling themselves Taiwanese. That’s not a skin color or a race––it’s a nationality. Therefore, Insomnicide’s example of a white person going to Africa and claiming to be black was utterly irrelevant, which is why I rephrased his scenario to match the actual situation of the Taiwanese, which would correspond to Europeans moving to America and calling themselves Americans.

            With respect to your second point, I don’t have time to read the entire Reddit page, but I skimmed through the comments and did not see any instances of Asian-Americans claiming to be white. I’m well acquainted with the sociological narrative of Asian-American “self-hatred”. Downplaying one’s ancestral culture and assimilating into the mainstream culture is not the same thing as literally pretending you’re a different race. Besides, the inverse phenomenon within the West would be “white guilt”. Those who harbor white guilt often downplay their whiteness by adopting non-white culture, typically African-American (“urban”) or occasionally Asian or Hispanic. But no one would argue that those white people believe that they’re not white.

            I suppose I did grow up in a very tolerant community. Growing up, I assumed the whole country was this way, but the more time I’ve spent on the Internet, the more regretfully I’m inclined to believe otherwise.

          • Alex Dương

            Taiwanese aren’t calling themselves white; they’re calling themselves Taiwanese. That’s not a skin color or a race––it’s a nationality.

            No, I don’t think you followed the discussion. Look at Tawhaki’s comments: he is talking about “native Taiwanese” vs “Chinese.” That isn’t what you’re talking about because when you talk about Taiwanese as a nationality, then it doesn’t matter if you’re a “mainlander” or a “Hoklo.”

            Downplaying one’s ancestral culture and assimilating into the mainstream culture is not the same thing as literally pretending you’re a different race.

            “Yes, I went through a self hating phase. Like many who posted here I grew up in a Midwestern white neighborhood and naturally fell into the white supremacy mindset (it’s a weird thing to write and read that, but it’s literally true).”

            http://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/1q16u3/did_you_ever_go_through_a_self_hating_phase_how/cd89f8x

          • Tawhaki was merely referring to Taiwanese who had already been living on the island before the KMT fled there.

            It’s like white Americans who were born and raised in Hawaii and view themselves as categorically distinct from “mainlanders” who are merely in Hawaii for a short vacation.

            The KMT did oppress Taiwanese (aka, “Chinese”) people who had been living on the island before the arrival of the KMT (usually as communist sympathizers). The opposition to the oppressive KMT of Taiwan-born ethnic-Chinese unwilling citizens of the ROC mirrored the opposition to the oppressive British monarchy of American-born ethnic-English unwilling subjects of the British crown.

            Again, sense of racial shame and inferiority are not the same as masquerading as a different race. People in Taiwan are proud to be Taiwanese. They are not abandoning their languages and culture in favor of European languages and culture. If anything, Taiwan has a far stronger nativist sentiment than the Sovietized PRC.

          • Alex Dương

            Tawhaki was merely referring to Taiwanese who had already been living on the island before the KMT fled there.

            Which means he did not use the label “Taiwanese” the way you did. See, the real problem here is that some people have an agenda and want to say “Taiwanese aren’t Chinese” to score political points. That is true only if you purposefully narrowly define “Chinese” as a citizen of the PRC. Otherwise, if you define it in a cultural, ancestral, or ethnic sense, that is not true.

          • don mario

            and its still pretty corrupt… thus the protests.

          • don mario

            wrong. the kmt were authoritarian in taiwan to begin with. look up 228 and educate yourself before filling up the net with naive rubbish.

          • Insomnicide

            It seems you didn’t study enough history. Chiang Ching Kuo, the son of Chiang Kai Shek opened up the democratic and liberal reformation of Taiwan. And he was the leader of the KMT party.

          • don mario

            i said to begin with. it seems you didn’t study enough of my comment.

          • Insomnicide

            It’s the nationalist government which gave them democracy. Your comment doesn’t change my point.

          • don mario

            yes it does, because what you have written is nonsense. you said their democratic government came from the mainland. it did not. that party came from the mainland but at that point they were not democratic, that happened in taiwan. the kmt came from the mainland.. the democracy came from taiwan.

          • Insomnicide

            Because democratic principles were not a part of the KMT right? Oh wait. The democratic model and government structures was completely transferred over from the mainland. To this day they’re still upholding the philosophy and doctrines on democracy established by Dr Sun Yat Sen. The very democracy that was intended for the Chinese mainland.

            Say what you want, but fact is it was given to Taiwan by the Chinese government and to this day they still operate under that government. Even though there are pro-Taiwanese parties in the parliament now, the dominant party is still the KMT. And the democracy of Taiwan is a legacy of the Republican Chinese government.

          • don mario

            massacre of 10,000 innocent people is democratic to you? strange fucking definition.

          • Insomnicide

            Did the first public elections of presidency kill 10,000 people? No. Stop throwing around strawmans in attempt to undermine the history of democracy’s development in Taiwan.

          • don mario

            thats your definition. not mine. you are the one who said that a democratic government came from china, to taiwan. and killed 10,000 people. in the name of democracy.

          • Insomnicide

            I never said they killed 10,000 people for democracy. You can stop making things up now.

            Regardless of what you personally believe, the fact is that the democratic structure prized by Taiwan today is inherited from the Republican Chinese democratic system set up by Dr Sun Yat Sen for mainland China.

          • Eric

            This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day, thank you for the great laugh, my gosh. Dr Sun Yat sun and democracy HAHAHAHA

      • don mario

        no taiwanese are saying they did not descend from han chinese numbnuts.

    • don mario

      you must be racist! how dare you say you are not american!

    • Alex Dương

      I really dislike comments like “Taiwanese are not Chinese.” You’re playing fast and loose with words because you have an agenda. What do you mean by “Chinese”? A citizen of the PRC? If so, then yes, of course Taiwanese are not “Chinese.”

      But that’s a very restrictive definition of “Chinese.” Under this definition, Singapore isn’t majority Chinese, which if you told any Singaporean, you would be laughed at. Similarly, under this definition, Chinese Canadians aren’t Chinese even though they’re called “Chinese Canadians.”

      • Dick Leigh

        Well, seeing as how I wrote they share the same culture, I don’t even know what you’re complaining about.

        Yes, there is a Chinese culture and people around the world share it, that doesn’t mean they all have to be united and love each other and support ethnic unity.

        I know plenty of Chinese who hate China but love being Chinese. It doesn’t make them self-hating race-traitors.

        • Alex Dương

          You also wrote “Taiwanese are not Chinese.” I was pretty clear about that being my disagreement. It’s true only if you purposefully define Chinese in an unnecessarily restrictive sense.

          I didn’t say everyone with Chinese ancestry over the world has to “be united and love each other and support ethnic unity.” I don’t know where that came from or what point you were trying to make with it.

        • cantonizi

          Most blacks in the US think that they are Amerikans and not Afrikans, even the last black pres of the United States of Afrika says he is not Afrikan like his father.
          Chinese that hates China are Taiwanizi and Hong Kongese.

  • Dick Leigh

    No they won’t… If anything, the Taiwanese and HKese are more culturally chinese than Chinese people.

    China tried to destroy its past with the Cultural Revolution. While Chinese people off the mainland still practise many ceremonies that have been forgotten like the coming of age ceremony, where you get your courtesy name.

    • don mario

      100% they have a more preserved chinese culture than the mainland.

  • Insomnicide

    They’re certainly not native American.

  • བོད་

    This trade pact is beneficial to Taiwan and vital for economic growth.
    These attention craving students and green coalition insects are stirring up
    unneeded trouble.

  • Webster

    I think there’s a general psychosis when it comes to trade agreements (just look at the conspiracies surrounding the TPP in the US).

    I think what they’re mostly upset about, is that this agreement seemed to have been rammed through without proper input from the public (and with little transparency of what the actual implications will be for Taiwan’s economy).

    This always happens every time a FTA is passed.

    If anything, this isn’t about China/Chinese, per say, but about a large economy preying on a smaller economy. It would likely result in the same situation if a FTA with the US was rammed through with the perception that it would be benefiting American businesses at the expense of Taiwanese businesses.

    It has more to do with the perceived balance of power, than race or ethnic tensions.

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/231785.html

  • David

    “During the conflict, some students sustained injuries, and fell to the ground.” and quickly sue somebody.

    • YourSupremeCommander

      Na, this aint Merika.

      • David

        No, it is china where everybody falls to the ground, pretends they are hurt and yells for money. Of course these students were actually beat up. it was a joke.

  • Perseus Wong

    There is nothing in the 2010 China-Taiwan FTA that puts Taiwan at a disadvantage. If anything it opens up the Mainland market for Taiwanese entrepreneurs and expands Taiwan’s private economy.

    This “protest” assumes that Mainlanders may eventually have a controlling interest in Taiwan’s economy since China has the greater purchasing power. But if these students want to safeguard against this, they just need to seek caps on real estate acquisition by mainlanders and deficit spending by the taiwanese government.

    But by destroying the legislature building, it’s ironic the “students” have only succeeded in giving China the satisfaction of seeing the symbol of Taiwan’s sovereignty vandalized. These self absorbed kids may like to see themselves as nationalist heroes. They are really just a bunch of over educated, lawless vandals with no idea or real interest in protecting and expanding Taiwan’s private economy.

    • Insomnicide

      They’ve created their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

    • don mario

      what rubbish. the very fact that this agreement was signed in 3 minutes in a very shady manner shows there is obvious disadvantages. these students were only reacting. they have peacefully protested for months and been ignored, they were forced to this.

    • SonofSpermcube

      Nothing puts Taiwan’s ELITES at a disadvantage. It could put everyone else at one.

  • Irvin

    If your logic holds true then america would never have a black president today.

    • Don’t Believe the Hype

      What do you mean? That the relationship between Taiwan and the Mainland is similar to the civil rights movement in America? But the problem is that the Mainland doesnt have a democracy, so the Taiwanes people cannot use any democratic process or demonstrations to achieve their aims. Also Taiwanese people are separated from the mainland by culture and history, not by race.

      • Eileithyia

        the real problem is not in the trade agreement. The real problem is China still think Taiwan belong to them. Just like Russia still think Ukraine belong to them. Those Taiwanese fear what happen to Ukraine is going to happen to them one day.

        • Tawhaki

          Anything which gives mainland China leverage over Taiwan affects Taiwan’s sovereignty. That’s basically the entire concern. You can’t really compare their situation to anyone else, no other country has a democratic government with a separate autocratic government thinking they are the rightful government.

          • Kai

            Korea?

            What you said is a pillar of the Korean Junche ideology. Self-sufficiency is the requisite for ensuring soverignty. It isn’t working out that well.

            The problem for Taiwan is that so much of its existing economy is already inherently reliant on the mainland. There are very good reasons why Taiwan, despite being one of the Asian Tigers, has fallen relative to South Korea. This simultaneously helps explain why many in Taiwan fear more mainland reliance meaning eventual political subjugation and makes the Taiwanese seem hypocritical.

          • Tawhaki

            South Korea also relies on mainland China for many of the same things, but they also don’t have the Chinese government forcing the entire world to marginalize them. Yes there is hypocrisy, but it is almost entirely the rich and empowered making money off of China and putting Taiwan into this situation, do you think this benefits the small businesses and farms that make up the majority of Taiwan? China has also done well with Taiwanese investment and learning, I don’t really think anyone should see it as China doing a favour to Taiwan. The point is that they are so gigantic and centrally controlled that they have a lot of real power to influence Taiwan even without free trade.
            http://plamc.pixnet.net/blog/post/30348680-%E9%AD%AF%E6%A2%81%E4%BA%A1%E5%9C%8B%E8%A8%98

          • don mario

            i don’t think it is really fair to call taiwanese people hypocrites. all Ma has done the entire time he has been elected is put focus on china. an obvious long term plan for economic reliance. now it is getting closer to the end of his time he doesnt care about his popularity (which is 8%, ridiculously low) and is just going on an all out mission to get china closer and closer so he can be remembered as the guy who fixed the cross straight relationship. i don’t blame the taiwanese for being lied too, but there are plenty of them who are ignorant about the negatives of this situation too.

          • Kai

            Reagan would say the rich and empowered are trickling down that wealth derived from China into rising living standards for everyone in Taiwan.

            I understand the anti-globalization and protect our jobs argument. I just alluded the same thing to a comment by Irvin above. To the extent I think Taiwan needs to be serious about how much of its economy and living standard is dependent upon its ties to China, I of course empathize with the possible impacts upon those who might lose out. I can feel for American manufacturing workers while still thinking globalization is a net good.

            I understand people will fight and protect their own interests. What we are mostly arguing about is how fair and compelling expressed arguments are.

            Taiwan has always been influenced (directly or indirectly) by the mainland. It’s an unavoidable result of history that can’t be changed. As long as Taiwan wants to trade with China, Taiwan is better off with negotiating trade agreements than risking state-sanctioned embargos, boycotts, and trade wars. It’s unfair but Taiwan has to work with the hand it has. The whole world does everyday.

            I agree that no one should see China as doing Taiwan a favor. I also agree that Taiwanese opposition should avoid coming across as wanting their cake and eating it too.

            The valid concerns in this specific issue are whether or not the government has been handling this trade pact in a “black box” in contravention to law, and whether the terms of the pact are deemed acceptable. The problem with this specific issue is that it is being broadened into generalized independence/sovereignty fears. I understand why people have these fears, but it makes it hard for anyone to actually do anything, especially with regards to the original issue (the pact).

          • takasar1

            Taiwan falling behind SK has very little to do with bilateral trade with the mainland

          • Insomnicide

            “no other country has a democratic government with a separate autocratic government thinking they are the rightful government.”
            Except North Korea?
            Except Northern Cyprus?

            And in the past Germany, Vietnam.

        • don mario

          exactly. ‘re’ unifying with taiwan is of far far far far far far higher importance to china than creating a fair economic relationship.

      • Irvin

        I’m saying that making decisions through grudge is counter productive, and you’re wrong, taiwanese people are separate from the mainland only in geography and maybe in thought, but they definitely shared the same culture and history.

        • don mario

          they do not share the same history at all. culture is up for discussion but its beside the point. do you really feel that taiwanese coming from china and having the same culture is enough reason to allow a authoritarian oppressive regime to swallow up a free democracy?(and one that was not easy to gain in the first place)

          • Irvin

            Do you even know the meaning of the word “history”?

          • don mario

            well it certainly seems that you don’t.

      • don mario

        exactly. negotiations with china are one sided. this is a black and white issue, it amazes me how ignorant people are about this.

        • Don’t Believe the Hype

          “negotiations with China are one-sided. this is a black and white issue, it amazes me how ignorant people are about this.”
          you are going to need to actually explain your point. could you elaborate on what we are ignorant of ? How is this a black and white issue? Do you know the history of China-Taiwan relations? Do you not think they might affect trade agreements?

          • don mario

            i was agreeing with you.

            the people who disagree with these students are ignorant of the political ties that go a long with this agreement, on the chinese side of things. they seem to think it is economical only, it is pure ignorance to believe this when the ccp have explicitly stated their intention to unify, even by using economic means.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            oh my bad, sometimes i lose track of where we are on the thread lol

  • Foreign Devil

    Look what free trade with China did for North America. . and most of the western world. . gutted all our factories and jobs. China manipulates their currency and has minimal or no labor, quality and environmental laws. . hardly fair competition. Taiwan is right to be protesting. Especially when their gov tries to shove through these bills in backroom deals with no consultations of the public. Corporations as always are behind this. Their upper management is the elite that profit from this.

    • Alex Dương

      Do you own a smartphone?

      • Foreign Devil

        I don’t happen to own a smartphone. . but yes I do own lots of stuff made in China. . because I know that is where you are going with this. Everything is made in CHina now. .so of course I own shit made in CHina. What does that have to do with my original point? People will always buy cheap.. it is government responsibility to protect their jobs and enforce environmental, quality and labor laws.

        • Alex Dương

          You blame “corporations” for killing jobs and say that these agreements only benefit their executives. The computing device you use to write your comments undoubtedly contains components made in China. Do you really think you’re better off without your computer?

          In any case, if you’re aware that “people will always buy cheap,” then blaming “corporations” makes no sense.

          • Foreign Devil

            because nobody else in the world would make those components if they could not be made in China? I’m not blaming corportations, I’m blaming government for selling out their country to corporate interests.

          • Alex Dương

            Why do you think that? Seems to me that if labor costs exceed some threshold in China, these corporations would consider setting up plants in, say, Vietnam. Or is that equally bad to you because the components still wouldn’t be made domestically in the U.S.?

            You talk about “selling out” and “corporate interests.” The monthly minimum wage in Shenzhen as of February 2014 is 1808 RMB.

            http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rising-wages-may-erode-chinas-low-cost-manufacturing-advantage-1431142

            Divide that by 6.2, and it’s around $292. Take a 40-hour work week, four weeks per month, and that averages to $1.825 per hour. The federal U.S. minimum wage is $7.25 an hour, and many states have higher minimums than that. Plus, manufacturing usually isn’t a minimum wage job.

            You can enjoy your computing devices at the prices you pay because of this. For all your talk, I doubt you’d be willing to buy the same device if it cost even twice as much, which is probably an underestimate if it were made here.

      • hess

        Not all smartphones are made in China though, my LG Optimus G for example is made in Korea. (While my iPhone is obviously made in China).

        • Alex Dương

          While he might be OK with a Korean corporation making its products in Korea, clearly, he is upset (or is claiming to be) that he can’t pay significantly more for an iPhone made in the U.S.

    • Insomnicide

      Free market is hardly fair competition? Did i hear that right?

      • Foreign Devil

        no you didn’t read that right.

        • Insomnicide

          So free trade is good unless it’s with China.

    • Foreign Devil

      By the logic of the people arguing my point. USA should just eliminate minimum wage and organized labor unions, do away with all environmental laws, get rid of quality inspections altogether, AND subsidize production. After all that is done we will be on an even footing to trade with China.

  • Alex Dương

    I never said Taiwanese people weren’t Taiwanese. I said the majority of them are descended from Fujianese Han Chinese immigrants who intermarried with Taiwanese aboriginals; to follow your wording, they’re still “of Chinese descent.”

  • MidniteOwl

    … well, if trade is agricultural… fuck i’m already having a hard time trying to AVOID Chinese food products.

  • YourSupremeCommander

    That girl in the purple is pretty cute.

    • Mighty曹

      Don’t strain your neck!

      • YourSupremeCommander

        Told you! That giant red hat distorts your sense of color bro. I said purple, not blue. P U R P L E

        • Mighty曹

          Told you too, Bruh! Your red eyes impaired your good taste.

    • don mario

      agree with that

  • mr.wiener

    China and Taiwan’s economies are already intertwined. The only thing left to work out is how much fornication you are getting for the fornication you are getting.
    I’ve never been to Canada…how’s the weather?

    • Kai

      Mmmm, fornication.

      • ScottLoar

        Kai, you are yet young. Understand that fornication is not the greatest delight until you get too old to do it.

        Yes, that’s profound.

        • mr.wiener

          The Arabs say, “here are 3 pleasures in life: Eating meat, riding meat and putting meat into meat.

          Not so profound, but hey… neither am I.

          • ScottLoar

            And said Genghis Khan who knew not a little about pillage and rapine, “What pleasure there is in taking another man’s woman, in riding his horses”. I remember that from high school history class in the US.

          • mr.wiener

            I thought it was the quote they ripped off from “Conan the Barbarian”, but it boils down to the same thing.
            “I like long walks around the steppe, what do you like Genghis?”
            “I quite like rape”.

          • ScottLoar

            On reflection I went to one very good USA high school. The librarian had excellent books, my sophomore teacher taught us Romanticism and introduced me to Gonoud’s Faust in preparation to the hippy movement, and the history teacher insisted we learn about China during the Cultural Revolution. I owe them a debt a gratitude for putting up with our adolescence.However, the Spanish professor convinced me I was dumb to languages until military tests showed the truth: He just didn’t like me, a dislike I’ve since been careful never to influence my estimation of a person’s capabilities.

    • don mario

      no thanks to Ma

  • Zappa Frank

    the second part show that even Chinese people consider him to be Chinese, not just americans.. Americans consider him an ethnic Chinese American.. is he not? should he be considered an ethnic Taiwanese American?

    most people cannot even tell the difference between Japanese Koreans and Chinese on first sight.. and than? can you tell the difference between French Germans and Spanish? So what? then they should think that since in China people cannot say the difference than they should feel to be the same?

  • Zappa Frank

    while Asians are well known to have a lot of variables.. dark hairs or dark hairs, sometimes also dark hairs.

  • AnswertheDragon

    Ya dude, and Mongolia should take back china, Germany take back Poland and Japan Vietnam. You guys are So insightful ur like on a totally different level

  • narsfweasels

    “IF this happened in the West, the protestors would have been detained/arrested ages ago.”

    And if this had happened in the PRC, they would already have been shot in the back as they ran away and theirfamiliesplaced on a blacklist until the day they die. Oh, and their children prevented from attending school while their parents serve an extralegal “House Arrest.”

    • don mario

      well its heading to become part of the prc so..

  • Nessquick Choco

    no, they know it will be “slow colonization”

  • ScottLoar

    “Do they honestly think there is anything to gain from isolating itself from the world’s second largest economy?”

    That is a rather foolish question. People, groups, communities, tribe, societies, nations at different times and under similar circumstance isolate themselves from a larger economy to preserve themselves.Look to how the Crow Nation tribal vote splits when the question development of tribal lands or preservation is posed. Look beyond your seemingly self-evident question to reasons far beyond profit.Taiwan’s common antipathy to mainland China is not ignorance of gain. China keeps extending profit and advantage to Taiwan, then can’t quite understand why most people in Taiwan still can’t accept mainland China, so China in a quandary ascribes that antipathy to US intervention, the work of Taiwan independence types, and ignorance. China just doesn’t get it, and obviously you don’t either.

  • Don’t Believe the Hype

    I said most not all, and America or other countries nationalizing a few banks/ companies does not meant they have given up on laissez faire economics.

  • don mario

    its common sense, but so many people wish to stay ignorant.

  • don mario

    because CHINA has declared to take over taiwan. by FORCE if necessary (check out the 2000 missiles aimed at taiwan if you need a fucking refresher) america is kind of preventing that from happening so easily, so economic integration will also work. xenophobia doesn’t even enter in to it, it is purely political.

  • don mario

    because no other country’s have declared to take over taiwan so why would it matter?

    don’t get this twisted up. the people protesting are not aligned to any political party here.

  • don mario

    exactly. the amount of pure ignorance being thrown around from this story is outstanding.

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