“Taiwan’s Future Is For All Chinese to Decide”, Taiwanese Reactions

The Legislative Yuan assembly hall was invaded and occupied by the students.

Taiwan’s future? PRC Taiwan Affairs: All Chinese people will decide. (Photo courtesy Apple Daily)

From Apple Daily Taiwan:

Taiwan’s Future? PRC Taiwan Affairs Office: To Be Decided By All Chinese People/span>

Several days ago, Mayor of Tainan and DPP party member William Lai said in an interview that “the future of Taiwan shall be collectively decided by the island’s 23 million citizens.” During a routine press conference of the PRC’s Taiwan Affairs Office of the State Council this morning, spokesperson Fan Liqing responded: “Any issue touching upon Chinese sovereignty and territorial integrity must by collectively decided by all Chinese people including our Taiwan compatriots.” Fan also reiterated China’s firm stance against Taiwanese independence.

As Taiwan’s Central News Agency reported, Fan Liqing stated: “Our stance towards DPP policies has been unequivocal and consistent. Our stance against Taiwan Independence and splittist plots is resolute and unwavering.” She also reaffirmed that any Taiwanese person, regardless of their positions in the past, is welcome to visit the Mainland as long as they presently approve of and support the peaceful development of cross-strait relations.

Additionally, in response to recent news that talks regarding the Cross-strait Services and Trade Pact (CSSTA) have broken off, Fan Liqing indicated that this information was “inaccurate” and that the Mainland has not changed its attitude towards the promotion of relevant follow-up agreements to the ECFA [Economic Cooperation Framework Agreement that opened direct channels of trade between Mainland China and Taiwan].

Xinhua News Net reported that in light of Taiwan’s current drafting of the new “cross-strait agreement supervisory ordinances”, Fan Liqing stated in response that if Pro-Taiwanese Independence forces want to use the ordinances to push forward a pro-Taiwanese Independence positions of there being “two states” and “separate countries on each side of the strait” thereby damaging cross-strait talks and the peaceful development of cross-strait relations, the Mainland firmly opposes this. (Mainland News Centre/Foreign News Report)

Comments from Facebook:

張兆宇

How about every province in China becoming independent, and letting all the people of the world decide!

Iktse Ko

When Chinese people can’t even decide anything for themselves, what right do they have to decide the future of the country of Taiwan? The logic of Shina pigs sure is strange!

Saprinna Chung

Fuck your mothers!

Min-Chieh Hsin

Thank you, PRC Taiwan Affairs Office spokesperson.
With one sentence, you’ve united all the people of Taiwan.

Cheng-Yen Yang

Taiwan’s future is for Taiwanese people to decide!!

Eddiemartin Tsang

Now that Hong Kong is already dead, Taiwan has to be even more vigilant in protecting itself. Remember that you are Taiwanese people!

林佳雯

I don’t know why Chinese people always pretending to be such idiots. [“阿不懂” was used to appear more cute.]

Elson Kuo

What about letting China’s future being decided by Taiwanese people?

Tsung-Han Ho

We’ll give you Ma Yingjeou’s future, but the rest we’ll decide on our own, thanks for the advice [“穴穴” was used instead of “謝謝” in order to appear more cute.]

Y.s. Lin

When China’s future can be determined by all Chinese people, we can then talk about Taiwan.

洪廷瑜

It’s none of your fucking business, you garbage CCP government officials who can only lick cock, fuck your mom.

曹孟德

China’s future? That’s up for America to decide. America’s future? That’s up for aliens to decide.

劍神

Go eat shit! [written in Taiwanese]

Kelvin Sun

What about the fate of the Chinese Communist Party, do you dare let all Chinese people decide it in a referendum?

Eugene Au

Right after strangling Hong Kong, they’ve come for Taiwan.

陳姿樺

Taiwan’s nuclear waste, all Taiwanese people decide to put it on the Mainland!”

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  • The boot of China will land firmly on the neck of Taiwan if they start any crazy talk. The rise of Chinese nationalism is gaining steam,,,,be careful out there kids

    • Dr Sun

      Like the boot of America landed firmly on Iraq and Afghanistan, with the same fucked up mess after they run off ?

      • YourSupremeCommander

        Those are A-RABS you are referring to, they will continue to be a fucked up mess even if we send them 1000 Einsteins and 1000 Bill Clintons to run their shit show.

        • Alex Dương

          We shouldn’t be running their show.

        • Insomnicide

          Saudi Arabia seems to be doing fine.

          • mr.wiener

            …until the oil runs out, then it will be run piggy run.

    • nqk123

      not really nationalism, but a sense of loss among many Chinese. it can be dangerous though, i do sense many i got nothing lose mentality during my travel

      • Irvin

        With a lot of bottled up anger no less, some are ticking time bombs waiting to explode.

    • don mario

      the yanky boot will have something to say about that.

  • Honibaz

    Taiwan has suffered a number of invasions in the past by its neighbours, as well as the Dutch. A truly fair way of deciding its future is to allow only the Austronesian speaking Aboriginals to vote.

  • ex-expat

    Great comments.

  • Mihel

    I was pretty surprised by the comments, then I realised they are all from facebook, thus probably not coming from mainland people.

    Why did auhor Aaron Wytze only post comments from fb? It’s making it sound like reaction to this were mostly pro-Taiwan, which I’m sure isn’t the case.

    • Insomnicide

      People hop over the wall a lot of the time. And recently the government lifted the ban on Facebook in Shanghai. But yeah, this came from a Taiwanese page on Facebook.

      • Zappa Frank

        I still cannot see Facebook in SH

        • Butsu

          Think it’s only in designated “trade spots” or something.

        • Insomnicide

          You need to be in the central business districts IIRC.

    • nqk123

      not sure about the older generation, but the young generation want a taiwan nation

      • Mighty曹

        Older generation is definitely more hard core against the mainland. The newer gen may be a bit more open.

        • Insomnicide

          I thought it was the other way around?

          • Mighty曹

            Both of my grandfathers were KMT supporters while my father was leaning toward Mao. lol

          • Insomnicide

            I don’t think KMT supporters are anti-mainland and anti-unification. Well, at least from my experience. The most anti-mainland crowd seems to be from my observation, young adults and teenagers which see Taiwan as neither KMT or CCP connected. A lot of them tend to be pro-Japan too.

          • don mario

            politics aside most of them are anti mainlanders.. in that typical asian racist way.

          • Mighty曹

            Pro-Japan has to be Anti-China. Ultra Nationalists, young and old, are.

          • Aaron Wytze

            I haven’t met a single young person in Taiwan that wants unification.

          • IsurvivedChina

            I would say the same as well!

          • Alphy

            They don’t want CCP governing, they want the unrealistic ROC unification of China.

          • Butsu

            I think you can split it up geographically as well. Older in the North might tend to be more pro unification, but older people in the south might be against it. Then we also have the whole ordeal with “bengshenren” and “waishenren”.

    • Mighty曹

      Don’t be surprised, these are ‘Taiwanese Reactions’.

    • Aaron Wytze

      Mihel, you’re right, this is a certain demographic of people that will have the above viewpoints. It has little to do with FB specifically, and more to do with the comments coming from the Apple Daily Facebook feed, which categorizes comments based on who receives the most ‘likes’. Yahoo Taiwan does not categorize it’s comments in this way, and usually has a much wider variety of opinions to be seen because of this. Apple Daily is the most popular app for receiving news in Taiwan, and it slants more pro-independence, but not necessarily pro-green.

      • Mihel

        So basically comments other than fb feed on this specific story have no way to be sorted based on popularity?

        • Aaron Wytze

          It’s up to the owner of the facebook page to organize it in that fashion. Yahoo Taiwan chooses not to sort their comments based on who receives the most “likes”. In the comments that I have featured for this article, “How about every province in China becoming independent, and letting all the people of the world decide!” was the most popular comment, thus, at the top of my translated commentary. I just want to add, Taiwanese receive their news online in a different way than Mainland Chinese. Which is mostly through facebook feeds, and apps like Apple Daily Taiwan. Yahoo News Taiwan has no app for iOS, (but possibly does for android). I don’t know what other writers at Chinasmack do, but I personally only translate whatever is the most popular comments on a particular news story. I do not generally pick comments that I like over others, and then translate. In all honesty, most of the commentary about this story has been along the lines of “乾你屁事” mind your own fucking business China.

      • Alphy

        I would be interested at seeing comments from this if it was ever posted on Sina. Wumao will have a stroke reading Taiwan response.

    • don mario

      they normally get Taiwanese reactions from Taiwan story’s.

      would love to see a mainland reaction from this.

  • Insomnicide

    “How about every province in China becoming independent, and letting all the people of the world decide!”

    This person should open a history book on Qing dynasty China some time.

    • Dr Sun

      Well all I can say Yunnan independence would be a good thing, but it would fuck the rest you for super cheap water and food, while keeping Yunnan poor.

      • Insomnicide

        I don’t know how that would be a good thing, since the national police force is the only thing keeping Yunnan from turning into one gigantic hellhole of STDs and heroin.

        • David

          Wait, what do you have against STDs and heroin?

    • lacompacida

      That wasn’t during the Qing dynasty. It was after 1911.

      • Insomnicide

        That too actually. Thanks for the reminder.

  • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

    Okay I’m sure when she said ‘all Chinese’ she meant ‘all Chinese with more than two braincells’

    • Zsari Maxim

      Voters with more than two braincells? Where are you gonna find that?

      • lacompacida

        So you are not a voter ?

    • lacompacida

      “All Chinese with more than two braincells” would mean at least a hundred people, but no more than a thousand.

  • Mighty曹

    Taiwanese Nationalists are alive and well.

    • mr.wiener

      Ma Yin Jo inadvertently gave Taiwan independence its greatest gift when he opened the door to hordes of mainland Chinese tourists.

      • Aaron Wytze

        I think the percentage of people who identify themselves as “both Taiwanese and Chinese” has seen a steep drop because of those mainland tourists.

        • Butsu

          Yeah, I visited for two days with my girlfriend not too long ago and what’s the deal with them? We went to the National Palace Museum and it was swamped with mainlanders. The constant pushing, yelling, spitting (inside the fucking museum), taking photos while you’re not allowed, not being able to behave normally. It was like, every bad chinese stereotype gathered in the hundreds. I guess they behave like this because Taiwan is a part of the mainland for them?

          They ruined my overall experience, not to mention my gf’s (she’s from Taipei but never went before). At least I got a little kick out of all the Falun Gong posters plastered infront of the tourist buses.

          • don mario

            yea.. its brutal. why did i put up with the mainland behaviour when i was living in china? i just accepted it as normal..

      • Insomnicide

        I’m still pissed about this. Ma Yingjeou helps bridge the two straits and the first thing that happens is the lowest rung of the mainland society zerg rushing to Taiwan to ruin the relations.

        • Wololoo

          Any more information about this?

          • Guang Xiang

            Basically, the influx of poor-mannered mainland tourists made the Taiwanese realize they want nothing to do with them. Spitting, defacing plants and sites. flooding museums, poor fashion sense, etc.

        • noodles76

          Is there any other rung? How would one differentiate?

          • Alex Dương

            Family problems?

          • noodles76

            Suck on the other nut, my left one is getting sore.

          • Alex Dương

            I didn’t know you had any nuts.

          • noodles76

            See, and that’s your problem right there. Willful ignorance. You’ve been sucking on them long enough and then make a comment like that. It boggles the mind.

          • Alex Dương

            No, willful ignorance is your problem, bud. Along with delusion. China doesn’t handle mental health problems very well. Too bad for you.

          • Kai

            @haysoosnegro:disqus @noodles76:disqus

            noodles said something patently stupid and trollish and therefore deserves censure but…

            *puts on mod hat*

            …let’s not flame each other every chance we get on every post we come across. Arguments and debates are fine but we don’t want huge flamewars without any real point to them.

          • Alex Dương

            Fair enough.

      • Mighty曹

        They’ve been regretting it ever since.

  • WFH

    I’m so confused…I thought Taiwan was a province of China…what’s all this talk about independence?

    • Mighty曹

      That depends on whose map you’re looking at.

    • lacompacida

      Because it is an independent country, according to international law.

      • Zappa Frank

        actually, officialy, almost no one recognize Taiwan as an independent country.

        • narsfweasels

          Irrelevant. With an independent economy, public services, separate passports, government, legislature, judiciary and currency Taiwan is an independent country. Recognition by other states just doesn’t matter.

          • noodles76

            It…actually does matter. And there lies the problem.

          • don mario

            all it needs is a different name to ‘china’ and they would be recognised

    • Insomnicide

      Taiwan was a province of China….was…
      But now it’s dyed it’s hair lime green, gotten a few piercings and a tattoo with profanities plastered all over it’s body.

      • Irvin

        And when china takes it back it would be “was a country”, see where this is going?

    • noodles76

      troll bait much?

    • Alphy

      lol… you are just trolling right?

  • YourSupremeCommander

    The only thing Taiwan is good at is…………………. hmmmm………………
    ……………………………. hmmmmmmmm…………………………….
    hmmmm………………………

    Let me go do some serious reasearch and get back to y’all.

    • Mighty曹

      Tsk tsk tsk…. I’m disappointed in you. Very disappointed. ASUS, MSI, Gigabyte, Acer, D-Link, Foxcom to name a few. And maker the world’s best smart phone, HTC. Oh, and 85C Bakery.

      • noodles76

        Supreme Commander is supremely retarded.

        • Mighty曹

          Supremacy is power. lol

    • lacompacida

      Your ignorance showeth.

    • mr.wiener

      ….Beef noodles, bettle nut girls, clean beaches, Chinese society with a thin veneer of Japanese manners, a lack of spitting/excreta in the streets, No hard “R” Beijing accents, rule of law, no chenguans and no stick up their arse about 5000[plus or minus] years of culture…..
      Also A-Mei and Wu Bai.

      • ex-expat

        I didn’t know you had that in you. Impressive…

        Edit: though I disagree with you in that I much prefer mainland mandarin.

        • mr.wiener

          Heh, all I can hear is : “Arr matey!Arrv got a brraan new combine haaarrvester!”.

          • Boris

            That made me laugh.

            To be honest with you, some regional accents in the UK are like that :P

      • Mighty曹

        Hahaha… how can I forget ‘beef noodles’ and ‘beetle nuts girls’.

    • don mario

      almost everything china is good at but better.. seriously, i cant move back to the mainland after living there.

  • Zappa Frank

    I don’t understand, Chinese people cannot decide anything but all of the sudden can decide for people that consider themselves another country? Maybe Chinese people should start deciding things for themselves first..

    • Wololoo

      The CCP understands every decision they make as decision from the people. So when they say the Chinese people should decide about Taiwan’s faith, they actually mean the CCP (and therefore a dozen people at the top of it).

      • Zappa Frank

        Yes I know, just wanted point out the hypocrisy of Fan Liqing

    • Dr Sun

      Insightful, interesting and to some extent true.
      But if you live in China, are Chinese, have family in China, or have experienced the “Great Leap Backwards”, the ” cultural Purge”, the “Opening up” to the present gangster (CPC) run Harmonious socialist,market economy, with Chinese characteristics” SCAM, you may to be cautious about what you say publically.
      But as all people on this site , who actually live in China, have Chinese family and friends and family know, what is spoken publically does not reflect their true or real thoughts or beliefs.

  • lacompacida

    How about “Mainland’s future is for all mainlanders to decide, not just CCP.”

    • Angie Mac

      There’s a concept

      • Dr Sun

        cant argue with that

  • Tamil Tiger

    China are such hypocrite. China is not even democratic country, so how can Chinese decide anything? Taiwan future should be decided by Taiwanese themselves because they are democratic.

  • Raymond

    “When China’s future can be determined by all Chinese people, we can then talk about Taiwan.”

  • PAUL 442

    I recognize Taiwan and it’s wonderful people as it’s own country. I wish my country (USA) would recognize Taiwan’s sovereignty and provide whatever assistance necessary to keep the big bad bully China in check. China is nothing more a oversized bully. If countries don’t unite together as allies and take a stand, we all will be under Chinese rule within 30 years or so. I might be 45, but I would sign up for duty when needed if our military would reduce the maximum hiring age.

    • Irvin

      The irony here is so thick it isn’t even funny.

      • mr.wiener

        You could cut it with a knife.

        • Irvin

          Chain saw.

    • Alex Dương

      If countries don’t unite together as allies and take a stand, we all will be under Chinese rule within 30 years or so.

      Ignorant fearmongering. The Chinese have certainly been expansionist in the past – just ask the Vietnamese for starters – but they don’t come anywhere near close to how expansionist the Mongols, the British, and the Japanese were in their glory days. In fact, the Chinese have a historical tendency to be isolationist to their detriment.

      • noodles76

        That’s like saying…it’s not cold where you live because it’s colder in other places.

        • Alex Dương

          Yes, I compared the expansionism of Imperial China to the expansionism of Imperial Mongolia, the British Empire, and Imperial Japan. I did not say Imperial China was never expansionist; only that its expansionism really does not compare in the slightest to those of other empires.

          Your point?

      • mr.wiener

        True, but I would suggest that China’s is far less isolationist now then it was in the past.

        • Alex Dương

          Now, yes. But as recently as 1978, “modern China” was still quite isolationist. It comes and goes. China benefits when it is open to foreign ideas and weakens when it thinks it has all the answers.

        • Insomnicide

          Between opening your doors to the west and getting nuked…the former does sound more enticing.

    • noodles76

      Pfftf, under Chinese rule….
      Not likely.

      I want to almost say ‘keep dreaming’ but since the last shitstorm that comment created with more than one idiotic git, I’ll just say….Not likely.

      • Alex Dương

        The dumbass is still you. Words have meanings, and believe it or not, there’s something called “connotation.”

        • noodles76

          Words have meaning huh clever guy? Go learn what the REPUBLIC of CHINA means. Dickhead.
          Keep sucking on my nuts while you think of a reply. Feels good.

          • Alex Dương

            Wow, you’re failing really hard today for multiple reasons. First and foremost, if a country is called the Republic of China, how on Earth does it make sense that this country is not China? It’s the Republic of…wait for it…China.

            Second, you obviously know absolutely nothing about the Taiwanese independence movement. If you told them the Republic of China is Taiwan, they would curse at you. Their goal is to create a new country, possibly called…wait for it…the Republic of Taiwan. Because, you know, China =|= Taiwan.

            You, however, in your infinite stupidity, are trying to say that “the Republic of China” = Taiwan and “the Republic of China” =|= China. Hmm. Really?

          • noodles76

            They could call it the Republic of Eatadick for all it matters. It still does not belong to the current Chinese gov’t as far as most Taiwanese are concerned.

          • Alex Dương

            Except it’s not the Republic of Eatadick. It’s the Republic of China, dumbass. Stop being a bitch and admit that you were being a fucking retard when you seriously tried to argue that the Republic of China is not China. And please, if you’re gonna talk shit, read up on what the Taiwanese Independence Movement is actually about. “ROC = Taiwan” is basically a KMT position.

          • noodles76

            It’s not. Let’s review….same passports? No. Same gov’t? No. Same currency? No. Judicial system? No….the list goes on and on. narsfweasels summed it up pretty well.

            I know that ultra nationalist douchebags don’t get it, especially the retards who take the CCP cock up their ass when they aren’t even Chinese or live in China. There is no hope for braindead fucks like that.

          • Alex Dương

            Why do you have talk about passports, government, currency, and the judicial system? Didn’t you say it was obvious that the Republic of China is not China from the name, “Republic of China”? Why are you backing off, bud? What’s wrong, did it finally become too fucking obvious how retarded it is to argue that the Republic of China is not China from the name alone?

            Because I’m so nice, let me help you out. The Republic of China is not the People’s Republic of China. That’s what you want to say but aren’t saying.

          • IsurvivedChina

            you’re whole argument is flawed. my plates are called china does not mean they belong to China.

          • Tey

            I almost choked on my sweet reading this. Hahaha

          • noodles76

            Fuck off, it ALL belongs to China!!! I can show you a map from 800 years ago that says exactly that. Ignore the fact that it’s drawn in crayon. It’s ALL historically Chinese!

            One day 800 years ago, a Chinese fishing boat landed on what you imperialists call Taiwan. the fishermen landed on the island, took a dump on the streets, spit everywhere, talked loudly and generally embarrassed themselves but that makes Taiwan obviously Chinese. There was even a book written about it by a Taiwanese author 800 years ago so that clearly bolsters the Chinese claim. It was titled…”GTFO”!

          • Alex Dương

            Of course not. But when the “Taiwanese President”‘s official title is President of the Republic of China, you have to be a complete moron (which you are) to argue that Taiwan isn’t a part of the Republic of China.

            http://english.president.gov.tw/

            In Chinese, that’s 中華民國總統府. Again, you recognize the 中國 in that name, right?

          • IsurvivedChina

            You’re stuck on a “word” , get over it!

          • Alex Dương

            You’re an idiot, but please do not get over it. Fix it.

          • James Clark

            Let me sum up your argument here, all semantics by the way. You’re basically saying that Taiwan can be thought of as China because Taiwan isn’t a “country”, the “Republic of China” is the country of which Taiwan is merely a province. Where your argument kind of falls down is where you say “Republic of China is China”, so……what’s China? By your logic, it can’t be defined since there is no country or province officially named “China”. The only real meaning of the word “China” comes from what everyone understands “China” to mean i.e. “The people’s republic of China”. When you say “China” that’s what people think, when you look at a map, that’s what it says. So no, you can’t say that Taiwan is China. The closest you can get is to say that “Taiwan is the Republic of China” which you’re quick to point out isn’t correct. If you say that “Republic of China is China” You are wrong by almost all contemporary understandings of the word “China”.

          • Alex Dương

            Where your argument kind of falls down is where you say “Republic of China is China”, so……what’s China? By your logic, it can’t be defined since there is no country or province officially named “China”.

            What do you mean there is no country officially named “China”? There are two such countries in the world: the People’s Republic of China, and the Republic of China.

            Are you similarly confused with respect to Korea? Because there are two of those in the world right now, too, you know.

            So no, you can’t say that Taiwan is China. The closest you can get is to say that “Taiwan is the Republic of China” which you’re quick to point out isn’t correct. If you say that “Republic of China is China” You are wrong by almost all contemporary understandings of the word “China”.

            Keywords: “contemporary understanding.” Cross-strait politics is complex, and judging from the comments here, the “contemporary understanding” is not an understanding at all. Screaming “Taiwan is not China!” does not reveal any understanding of the issue at all.

            FYI, I never said Taiwan is China. I said it is a province of the Republic of China, and that is simply a fact.

            What point are you trying to make, James? That Taiwan isn’t a part of China? It’s not a part of the People’s Republic of China, but it is a part of the Republic of China. Therefore, it is a part of China.

            Honestly, you ought to know that “contemporary understanding” is really just an appeal to ignorance in this case. Just because most people don’t know any better doesn’t mean that what they think is right. Taiwan is a province of the ROC, and Taiwanese independence seeks to change that. If Taiwan were already independent and not a part of the ROC, then Taiwanese independence would have no reason to exist.

          • James Clark

            Nope, didn’t mention Korea, cross-straight politics or taiwanese independence because none of these things are in any way relevant to the point I’m trying to make. The term “China” on its own, not “people’s republic of China” or “republic of China” is not the official name of any country. Similar to the term “America” in this respect, the contemporary understanding, i.e. the opinion of almost everyone, is that the term refers to what is officially the people’s republic of China, an entity that doesn’t include Taiwan. The fact that the word “china” occurs in the name “republic of China” doesn’t make this incorrect. The country exists politically independent from the country referred to by all outside sources as China. Therefore is not China. Contemporary understanding isn’t an appeal to ignorance at all. It’s literally the only way to define ambiguous terms like “China”. Let me put this another way, if I said that south america was part of america, I would be wrong, since the contemporary understanding of the word “America” refers to the united states. It’s semantics, not reality.

          • Alex Dương

            The term “China” on its own, not “people’s republic of China” or “republic of China” is not the official name of any country.

            And your point here is, what, exactly? How does the lack of a country just called “China” invalidate my argument?

            Similar to the term “America” in this respect, the contemporary understanding, i.e. the opinion of almost everyone, is that the term refers to what is officially the people’s republic of China, an entity that doesn’t include Taiwan. The fact that the word “china” occurs in the name “republic of China” doesn’t make this incorrect.

            Again, you may disagree all you like, but all you’re doing is appealing to ignorance. Taiwan not being a part of the PRC does not mean Taiwan is not a part of the ROC. And since Taiwan is a part of the ROC, it is a part of China, just not the one that “everybody” thinks of.

            Let me put this another way, if I said that south america was part of america, I would be wrong, since the contemporary understanding of the word “America” refers to the united states. It’s semantics, not reality.

            Whether America refers to the U.S. or to a continent / pair of continents is context-specific. That is where your comparison fails. My claim has always been context-specific; I never said Taiwan is a part of China without qualifying which China I was referring to (viz. the ROC).

          • James Clark

            What you said was “ROC is China”, and since the term “China” refers to the people’s republic of China, you would be wrong. There are other examples of this. The democratic republic of Congo is generally referred to as “Congo”, so if you were to say that the neighbouring “republic of Congo” is “Congo”, you would be wrong. The “republic of Ireland” is generally referred to as “Ireland” so if you were to say that “northern Ireland” (a part of the U.K.) is “Ireland” you would also be wrong. Do you get what my point is now? Since terms like “China” are ambiguous (not the officially recognized name of anything), their definition is left up to what “everybody” thinks of. That’s how language works, the accepted definition IS the definition.

            edit: also you don’t need to keep quoting me in your replies, my previous post is right there.

          • Alex Dương

            What you said was “ROC is China”, and since the term “China” refers to the people’s republic of China, you would be wrong.

            No. Officially, there have been two Chinas in the world since 1949. That one is commonly refer to as “just” China and the other Taiwan doesn’t change the fact that…there are two Chinas in the world, and the ROC is one of them.

            You can deny it all you like, but it remains that you are trying to say that I’m wrong by appealing to ignorance (i.e. what I say is not what “everybody else” says). Yeah, well, what “everybody else” says in this case is wrong. What you think of as “Taiwan” actually controls a very small percentage of mainland China: Kinmen and Matsu. Kinmen and Matsu are parts of Fujian Province, Republic of China. They are not a part of Taiwan; indeed, the most hardline of Taiwanese independence supporters have always been willing to “sell out” Kinmen and Matsu to the CCP precisely because those islands and its people are not Taiwanese.

            Your examples are not good. First, Congo by itself can refer to either the Democratic Republic of the Congo or the Republic of the Congo. You are wrong to say that it always refers to the Republic of the Congo; it can be context-specific, and to avoid confusion, people will often attach the respective Congo’s capital next to the name to distinguish between the two (e.g. Congo-Kinshasa and Congo-Brazzaville).

            Second, Northern Ireland actually works against you. Northern Ireland is a part of the U.K. just like Taiwan is a part of the ROC. And just like in the case of Taiwan, identity is very complex in Northern Ireland. It’s a part of the U.K., but depending on the political views of the person, a Northern Irish person may simply say that he’s from Ireland rather than the U.K. For the same reason, some Northern Irish people simply identify as “Irish” even though they are not from the Republic of Ireland; see, for example, Liam Neeson.

            Seriously, as I said, you’re trying to say I’m wrong because of what “everybody else” says. That’s appealing to ignorance, and setting aside that it’s a fallacy, it especially makes no sense to do that in an issue as complex as cross-strait politics.

          • James Clark

            Ok, let me reiterate. You’re saying there are two “Chinas” in the world, there are not, there are two countries with the word “China” in their official names. “China” as a single word, refers to the people’s republic of China. On this you must agree. I was talking not about the official names but about the terms we use to refer to countries, in this, people’s opinion and not “what everyone thinks” but “what everyone SAYS” is important. We’re talking semantics and the meaning of terms here, so it’s really the only recourse you have.

            I’ll concede the point on Congo since the word’s not used on its own often enough due to confusion (they keep changing the names). The fact remains that it most commonly refers to the “Democratic republic of Congo”(not the other one as you said) and you would still be wrong to say that the Republic of Congo is Congo.

            On northern Ireland you’re shooting yourself firmly in the foot with your argument. I will concede that people in northern Ireland will refer to themselves as Irish, similarly my nationality is British but I’ll refer to myself as English to anyone who asks. It doesn’t change the fact that Northern Ireland is not Ireland and in fact, if we apply your logic to taiwan we find that most people there consider themselves, well, not chinese.

            Once again, we’re not discussing cross-straight politics, the use of the word China has nothing to do with the people of either country, they would use the term Zhong guo or something similar. It’s a language question for the benefit of the international community, what do we call that country? Well, we call the people’s republic of China “China” and we call the republic of China “Taiwan”. Now whether or not calling the republic of China “Taiwan” is technically correct makes no difference, that’s what we call it. So in all respects in which the word is used, to say that the Republic of China is “China” is wrong.

            I think what we’re arguing about here is simply what the word “China” means. To you it means countries with the word “China” in the name. I’m saying that when you say the word “China” on it’s own, it never refers to the Republic of China.

            I actually would rather be discussing politics, I hate semantics.

          • Alex Dương

            You’re saying there are two “Chinas” in the world, there are not, there are two countries with the word “China” in their official names. “China” as a single word, refers to the people’s republic of China. On this you must agree.

            Again, this is you trying to say that I am wrong because of what “everybody” thinks or says. There are two Chinas in the world, and it has been that way since 1949. One of them is commonly referred to as simply China and the other Taiwan, sure. But that in no way invalidates the FACT that officially, there are two Chinas.

            The fact remains that it most commonly refers to the “Democratic republic of Congo”(not the other one as you said) and you would still be wrong to say that the Republic of Congo is Congo.

            I don’t see how that “fact” remains after you conceded that Congo on its own is ambiguous. You can use it on its own AFTER you’ve established that you’re referring to the Democratic Republic of the Congo or the Republic of the Congo. But if you haven’t established that first, then Congo on its own is ambiguous.

            On northern Ireland you’re shooting yourself firmly in the foot with your argument. I will concede that people in northern Ireland will refer to themselves as Irish, similarly my nationality is British but I’ll refer to myself as English to anyone who asks. It doesn’t change the fact that Northern Ireland is not Ireland and in fact, if we apply your logic to taiwan we find that most people there consider themselves, well, not chinese.

            Northern Ireland is not the Republic of Ireland. Yet, as you admit, many of its people will simply refer to themselves as Irish. So it’s not correct to say that Ireland on its own refers to just the Republic of Ireland.

            Really, what is your point? That in common practice, China refers to the PRC and Taiwan the ROC? Sure, I never denied that. I am simply pointing out (repeatedly) that appeals to ignorance don’t invalidate facts. Just because “everybody” thinks of the PRC when they see the word “China” on its own doesn’t mean that the ROC has ceased to exist. Just because “everybody” thinks the ROC is Taiwan doesn’t mean that Kinmen and Matsu have come under PRC control.

          • James Clark

            Right, a few times round the circle then. A little tired at this point.

            The part about Ireland you completely misunderstood. What I was trying to say was that what people call themselves in a country and what the country itself is called don’t really have any relationship at all. You would find just as many people in Northern Ireland who refer to themselves as British.
            Oh, and yes, you absolutely can say “Ireland” on its own to refer to the Republic of Ireland.

            As to the rest, neither of us has said anything new for 24 hours, I’d say the debate is over eh?

          • noodles76

            It was over the moment that retard chimed in with a pic of a passport from Taiwan claiming it’s China because the RoC has China in the name. He just didn’t realize it.

          • Alex Dương

            ROC is “a” China. At no point did you ever produce even a remotely sensible argument against that. You went full retard. Never go full retard.

          • Alex Dương

            What I was trying to say was that what people call themselves in a
            country and what the country itself is called don’t really have any
            relationship at all.

            OK. Taiwanese people call themselves Taiwanese. Their country is the Republic of China. Your point?

            Oh, and yes, you absolutely can say “Ireland” on its own to refer to the Republic of Ireland.

            And yet, like you, I have met people from Northern Ireland who when asked where they are from, will simply respond with, “I’m from Ireland.”

            For future reference, appeals to ignorance are usually not the way to go in discussions.

          • James Clark

            My point was that you missed the point. Anyway, “appeals to ignorance” (no quotation marks large enough for this one) aside I’ve never met someone from Northern Ireland who said they were from Ireland. I’ve heard them say they were “irish” which is not quite the same thing. Although in a far away place I could see them saying that to avoid confusion. Saying you’re from the U.K. doesn’t roll off the tongue nicely.

            For future reference, undisguised condescension doesn’t work all that well either.

          • Alex Dương

            My point was that you missed the point.

            So you didn’t have one to begin with. OK.

            I’ve heard them say they were “irish” which is not quite the same thing.

            You’re right; it’s not. But according to you, Ireland refers to the Republic of Ireland, full stop. Yet, you admit that many people who are from Northern Ireland, which is a part of the U.K. and not a part of the RoI, refer to themselves as simply “Irish.” So Ireland is just the RoI, but Irish can refer to people from either the RoI or Northern Ireland.

            Hmm. And you have a problem with my saying that Taiwan is Chinese because it’s a part of the ROC? If you accept that Irish can refer to either the RoI or Northern Ireland, then why is it unacceptable that Chinese can refer to the ROC?

            As for my condescending tone, sorry, bud, but you’ve been trying to prove me “wrong” by arguing that what I’m saying isn’t what “everybody” else says or thinks.

          • James Clark

            You ever hear the saying “You run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole”?

            The wall has a dent and my head hurts.

          • Alex Dương

            Cross-strait politics is a complex issue. Reducing it to a matter of what “everybody” thinks does not aid understanding of the issues.

          • IsurvivedChina

            Alex Du’rong you Drongo, always got to have the last word don’t you! how does your ego sleep at night?

          • Alex Dương

            You can leave and start educating yourself at any time. Or you can keep posting and keep being a dumbass.

          • IsurvivedChina

            Next you’ll be telling me I’m a stupid expat and I have no business being in China and that I should go home, LOL typical responses one would expect from a brainwashed moron.

          • Alex Dương

            Next you’ll be telling me I’m a stupid expat

            I already told you that. You really are stupid. I doubt even a picture would help you understand this any better.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_map.png

          • xiaode

            i thought it was the other way round… that the mainland belongs to the Republic of China…

          • Alex Dương

            Keep sucking on my nuts while you think of a reply. Feels good.

            You know what feels even better? Seeing a dumbass expat try to argue that “the Republic of China” is not China.

          • noodles76

            I don’t have to argue it, they have already spoken and made it pretty f’n clear

            Let me put it this way, where the Republic of China is now, Mainland will never reach.

          • Alex Dương

            Indeed, they have.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_presidential_election,_2012

            Oh wait, what’s that? Republic of China Presidential Election?

            Look, I don’t like you because I think you’re a hypocritical, self-righteous douchebag. You think the same of me. Fine. But use your fucking brain please. Of course Taiwan is not a part of the PRC and is independent of the PRC. That’s obvious. But you have to be a real dumbass to argue that the official name of the country, the Republic of China, is not China.

          • noodles76

            That’s your entire point? That there is China in the name?

            Wow….

            Is the DPRK democratic?

          • Alex Dương

            Hey bud, you were the one trying to tell me that it is obvious from the name “Republic of China” that the Republic of China is not China. You want to be a bitch and forget that, your choice. Next time you want to “call me out,” make sure your brain is turned on first.

          • noodles76

            uh…because they’re not the fucking same?

            The world at large should hope and pray that one day it is the same and the RoC takes over but…it’s not likely to happen. More the shame.

          • Alex Dương

            The world according to noodles:

            中華民國 = 台灣
            中華民國 =|= 中國

            Try telling that to an actual Taiwanese independence supporter and see what the reaction is. The irony here is that by refusing to admit that you were being a dumbass, you are actually pushing the status quo position favored by most of the KMT and soft independence supporters: the ROC is Taiwan; Taiwan is the ROC.

            What does Taiwanese independence seek to accomplish? The creation of an independent state named Taiwan, like 台灣共和國 for example.

            台灣共和國 = 台灣
            台灣共和國 =|= 中國

            See, that makes total sense. But to keep saying that the Republic of China is Taiwan and is not China just shows how fucking retarded you are.

          • noodles76

            Actually, realistic would be the better term. I think we all know, and I will include you in that group, that the RoC is not going to be taking over the Mainland any time soon. If they govern Taiwan or not is up to the Taiwanese.

            EDIT: I should have said KMT not RoC since it is not the goal of all parties in Taiwan to control China again.

          • Alex Dương

            It isn’t going to be taking over, and that’s unfortunate for the Chinese as a whole. But that’s a separate point from what we’re talking about. Fact is, “the ROC is Taiwan” is basically the status quo position. You want to push the status quo, no problem. But you can’t push the status quo and also say “the ROC is not China.” Because it is.

            That’s why the Taiwanese Independence Movement exists; they don’t want Taiwan to be a part of the ROC or the PRC. They don’t want to vote in a ROC election. They don’t want an ROC passport. They want a Republic of Taiwan, where they can vote in a Taiwanese election and carry a Taiwanese passport that doesn’t say ROC on it.

          • noodles76

            The RoC is not fucking China. You initially said it was since it has…China…in the name. remember the passport photo you linked? the RoC is not China as it is generally recognized… though as I said it should be what China (Mainland) aspires to be.

            The original post you replied to said Taiwan is not Chinese. You argued against that with a photo of a passport that said China on it. I basically said, that name means nothing.

            Let’s stop (if we can) being assholes to each other. Your first sentence in the above post I agree with and I expressed that very same sentiment. let’s stop right the fuck there.

          • Alex Dương

            I basically said, that name means nothing.

            You might’ve “basically” said that eventually, but that wasn’t what you said originally.

          • Alex Dương

            Is the DPRK democratic?

            No. But it is one of the two Koreas. Please don’t even think about trying to argue that the DPRK is not a Korea.

          • noodles76

            Oh sweet Jesus…..

          • Alex Dương

            Dude, are you fucking serious? You’re seriously trying to say that the DPRK is not a Korea? Why the fuck does everybody call it North Korea then?

            Also, your contorted “logic” produces the following contradiction:

            The Republic of Korea is Korea.
            The Republic of China is not China.

          • noodles76

            I think I said…Oh sweet Jesus…

          • Alex Dương

            And I think the *cough* connotation of that is “you’re an idiot.”

          • noodles76

            Actually, the ‘connotation’ was that you are still riding my nuts and if I said the sky was blue you would disagree.

            EDIT: I know I’m likely to get a response saying that the sky is not in fact blue that it’s a reflection of…….

            So let me rephrase…
            Actually, the ‘connotation’ was that you are still riding my nuts and if I said that water was wet you would disagree.

          • Alex Dương

            I already told you: I can’t ride what doesn’t exist. No, the DPRK isn’t democratic. Yes, it is a Korea. How fucking dumb do you have to be to seriously try to argue that North Korea is not a Korea?

          • noodles76

            I never fucking said if I thought it was or wasn’t part of Korea. You braindead douchebag.

          • Alex Dương

            No, what you did was ask me whether the DPRK is democratic and then say “oh sweet Jesus” when I pointed out that yes, the DPRK is a Korea. Both of those imply that you wanted to extend your previous dumbass argument that “the ROC is not China” to Korea.

            Now, if you want to back off from extending that stupidity to Korea, good.

          • noodles76

            You…are…unbelievable.

          • noodles76

            I am not arguing one way or the other about North Korea being Korea. Are you mentally impaired?

            Earlier you said…

            Here, let me summon Captain Obvious and point something out for you: the Republic of China contains the word “China” in it.

            and

            But you have to be a real dumbass to argue that the official name of the country, the Republic of China, is not China.

            And later I said,

            Is the DPRK democratic?

            I think an autistic kid could have followed that yet you failed. Big surprise. Instead you went off on some idiotic tirade about about North Korea being Korea.

          • Alex Dương

            So what was the point of your rhetorical question? You can’t take names at face value? Sure. The DPRK is not democratic.

            And? What else? Is that it? That’s all you wanted to say? You weren’t implying that since we can’t take names at face value, the ROC is not China?

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is an independent country, cunt head.

          • Alex Dương
          • noodles76

            What the fuck are you trying to argue here? I said that where the RoC is now, Mainland will never each and you link to democratic elections in the RoC……proving my point?

            Thumbs up!

          • Alex Dương

            I replied to your comment before you edited it.

          • IsurvivedChina

            dude, the fact that you’re quoting Wiki as your source pretty much sums up your high school mentality!

          • Alex Dương

            I already gave you two links to official Taiwanese (i.e. Republic of China) government pages, both of which clearly showed that Taiwan was a part of the Republic of China. The fact that you are trying to diss Wikipedia now shows that you have nothing left to say.

          • IsurvivedChina

            “was” past tense.

          • Alex Dương

            Yeah, it was yesterday when I gave you the links. And you know what? It still is today.

          • IsurvivedChina

            That is what I said exactly, Taiwan is not a part of China, Taiwan is not a communist country!

          • xiaode

            Is China a communist country? Living here for years and no one never told me….

          • bang2tang

            I think PRC is real capitalist…

          • xiaode

            I think timocracy describes the situation best…

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timocracy

            or are we already in a plutocracy ?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

            “A timocracy is a state where only property owners may participate in government. The more extreme forms of timocracy, where power derives entirely from wealth with no regard for social or civic responsibility, may shift in their form and become a plutocracy where the wealthy and powerful use their power to entrench their wealth.”

            fits… or not?

          • Alex Dương

            Are you really this stupid? Do you seriously not realize that there is a difference between the People’s Republic of China and the Republic of China?

            People’s Republic of China – 中華人民共和國
            Republic of China – 中華民國

          • IsurvivedChina

            Well yes I do, one is a vicious communist dictatorship that sends tanks and soldiers to stop students from marching and the other is a progressive society with freely elected presidents – I thought that was obvious!

          • Alex Dương

            I thought it was obvious too. But then every time I said Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China, you went full retard: “no, it’s not! Taiwan isn’t Communist!”

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is independent country, full stop.

          • Alex Dương

            Wrong. Taiwan is a province of the Republic of China, which is an independent country.

          • IsurvivedChina

            you’re stuck on on a word. If Taiwan took the word “China” off its passport would that make it easier for you to accept?

          • Alex Dương

            Again, you know NOTHING about Taiwanese independence. Absent the formation of a new country, Taiwan can’t take the word “China” off its passport because Taiwan isn’t a country. The Republic of China is the country that issues the passports.

          • Tamil Tiger

            No need to see this see that see backside. Taiwan is Taiwan, simple as that.

          • Alex Dương

            The facts hurt, I know.

          • Tamil Tiger

            The fact that Taiwan is independent country hurts you so much, I can understand your feeling. Like a Son not acknowledging hi father. My condolonce goes to you and your family.

          • Alex Dương

            Actually, I don’t think you can understand “my feeling” because

            1. Taiwan is not an independent country. It’s precisely because it isn’t that Taiwanese independence exists.

            and

            2. I have no idea how it feels to have supported a terrorist movement that failed to achieve its goal of a separate Tamil state.

          • Tamil Tiger

            My condolence goes to you and your family again. Taiwan is an independent Country. Too bad your effort didn’t work. Don’t be sad.

          • ex-expat

            What is your position on China/Taiwan?

          • Alex Dương

            Personally, I support ROC reunification of mainland China and Taiwan. Absent that, I recognize the reality of two governments each officially named “China,” one of which is commonly referred to as Taiwan since Taiwan makes up the majority of that government’s territory.

          • ex-expat

            Under CCP or ROC rule?

          • Alex Dương

            Dude, read my first sentence again: “Personally, I support ROC reunification of mainland China and Taiwan.” Here, let me repeat it and bold the relevant part: “Personally, I support ROC reunification of mainland China and Taiwan”

          • ex-expat

            Sorry it’s early morning for me and I read incorrectly, no need to be rude.

          • Alex Dương

            My apologies. I had to deal with not one but two people try to tell me that the Republic of China is actually not China despite having the word China in the name, so my patience is pretty thin.

          • IsurvivedChina

            oh Noodles76, very nice! BOOM! take that Alex Drongo!

    • Xio Gen

      America does recognize Taiwan, but not the ROC. So the President has never said “Taiwan is a sovereign nation-state that we fully recognize.” Businesses recognize it, except Microsoft, who almost caused a trade war when they put Taiwan as a country when choosing time zones. That’s why it says “Country/Region” when you pick your time zone in Windows. Our stuff also says Made in Taiwan.

      • Confucius

        I think you should stop arguing about who recognises Taiwan. The US will recognise whoever provides to most benefit to her plutocratic elite 0.1%. At the moment (and far into the foreseeable future) that would be mainland China. It’s like arguing that Americans recognise that the Russian majority in Crimea have control of Crimea but sees Ukraine as a country that includes Crimea. Better to face reality and work towards Taiwan’s advantage, as an honest broker between East and West, a genuine democracy (albeit evolving still) vs the faux-democracy in India or Japan, or even the US itself (I’m making a distinct between the concepts of democracy and belief-in-democracy, the latter being the US) that could well pose the first opposition party for a democratic China in 20-30 years time (CCP vs ROC), cement the importance of Taiwan despite the overwhelming competition against a bigger population, landmass, economy and power on the other side of a narrow strait. Make Taiwan indispensable, not an obstacle, for the future generations of Taiwanese.

        • David

          Wow, how wise you are to see through all that while the rest of us are so fooled.

        • Tey

          I think you are being a bit too optimistic. With all the lengths the CCCP go through to protect it’s iron grip on power, how can it t be possible even in 20 to 30 years time for the ROC to become an opposition party? The CCCP will destroy it the first chance they get.

          • noodles76

            China had no boats from 1945 on? Where did all the Chinese boats go? Somebody must look into these acts of maritime piracy!!

          • Tey

            I don’t understand you.

          • noodles76

            That…I believe.
            I’ll go slower.

            The CCCP will destroy it the first chance they get.

            In case you can’t put 2 and 2 together…..they’ve had the chance to ‘destroy’ them for a long ass time. They…ain’t all that far away.

          • Tey

            No one could have gotten that out of your rambling not at least the way you worded your sentence as if it is a direct translation from Chinese.

            Anyway you don’t need to destroy something that is clearly not a threat yet. However, the person above predicted in 30 years it may become an opposition party. So maybe then China will crush it.

    • Andrew

      How is China bullying Taiwan? CCP takes the stance that it is the legitimate government of China. Consider the issue of Taiwan a remnant of the Chinese civil war. Taiwan is a province is continuous rebellion. Despite this, the CCP is engine in conversation and is trying to normalize relations. It’s basically negotiating with a province in rebellion to see what it can do to rejoin China.

      Also, like others have said, China doesn’t want to be a world power. They have never expressed a desire to be and have taken no actions to be. They defend their territorial integrity, but that’s not a big deal. Its small skirmishes if anything, it’s China saying they won’t be bullied, not the other way around.

      China doesn’t give a fuck about the rest of the world. Frankly, I’d say China would let the rest of the world burn, so long as China is affected, they won’t lift a finger to stop it. All the CCP cares about is Chinese survival, that is their only goal.

      I’m the opposite of you, I’d defend China’s right to exist, even against my own government. I’d defend the right for the CCP to continue to exist over the US’.

      • mr.wiener

        An interesting …interpretation.

        • David

          a. . . polite comment on his interpretation. but I agree, the world needs screwballs, just to keep things interesting and I like free speech.

        • Andrew

          I’d suggest reading ‘On China’ but Kissinger. He basically makes the same points, and specifically argues that Chinese diplomacy has been what I have mentioned above.

          If Chinese wanted to be a world power, you would assume they would seek to export their ideology, which they do not. A word power seeks to dominate international relations, something China does not has has not done. China exists to protect its own self interests which simply means the Chinese way of life. Chinese foreign policy does not make that he Chinese way is exportable nor so they argue that it should be. Those who value the Chinese way of life are welcome to it, but it is not universal, something western democracies seem to forget.

          Western democracies seem to think that, like the end of history, that they are morally and culturally superior to China and therefore China must change. I disagree with this statement,

          • Tey

            You lost credibility he moment u said China does not want to export their ideology. They do, that is why they are “bribing” Hollywood studios to place Chinese culture into their movies.

            Also, western democracies are at least morally superior to China’s policy. Just ask any government leaders who sent their child overseas just so they can learn to have free speech and grow up in an fair and conducive environment where ideas can be shared without any fear of being held accountable of what they say.

            Please stay in China, ur kids will thank you one day.

          • Andrew

            I don’t believe in free speech. I don’t believe in democracy. So, there’s that. Which also explains why I don’t believe in the End of History thesis.

            Culture is not ideology. Ideology of China would be Market Socialism. America exports ideology (democracy and liberalism). China exports culture (i.e. Chinese way of life), not ideology. Granted, there’s a fine difference, but one is about conduct of character more align to Confucius rather than a religious or political ideology.

          • noodles76

            China exports culture to where?

          • Tey

            To the rest of the world dude.

          • noodles76

            You have piqued my curiosity. Please…give me details. Enlighten me.

          • Tey

            I thought you like to speak in code? Isn’t “the rest of the world” clear enough for you? Should I list down all the countries in the world?

            Just screwin with you. It’s clear the CCCP’s latest agenda is to promise Hollywood riches, in turn, they will help export Chinese culture by placing Chinese cultural elements in their films. The way u’ve been supporting the CCCP’s agenda in this commentary section I thought u shud know better.

          • noodles76

            How fucking retarded are you? Seriously!
            When the fuck have I supported the CCCP?

            Drugs…..can be fun for normal people on occasion but when an ignorant git takes them….you get things like posts from Tey

            EDIT: now seriously….go ahead and tell us what culture China exports and where it’s being exported to. I see above you mentioned one thing, let’s discuss that. Do you have any proof that the CCP is paying movie producers to include Chinese elements in their films? Now, you can say that some movies have been edited to appeal to the Mainland Chinese market and that I won’t disagree with. You can also say that some movies are ‘overly’ sensitive about China. But….none of that means that China is exporting culture. In fact, the opposite would be true. Watching a movie produced in the west, with ‘western’ actors would be the ‘west’ exporting it’s culture…no? Hi. Soft power. China has roughly nil.

          • Alex Dương

            When the fuck have I supported the CCCP?

            Now that’s karma.

          • noodles76

            I think Tey is your twin.

          • Angie Mac

            China does not bully Taiwan.
            Those are friendly missiles pointed at them.

          • noodles76

            Who are you replying to?

          • Zappa Frank

            yeah. when i read someone like you i also have some doubt

          • Tey

            Ok that makes sense. The part abt differences in culture and ideology.

            However, It’s funny, you said you do not believe in free speech but you just posted a good opinion piece which may be branded as blasphemy if free speech is not allowed.

            Another way of saying, you are allowed NOT to believe in Free speech or democracy. People in China or other Autocratic places are NOT allowed to believe in Free Speech or Democracy.

          • noodles76

            You do not seem to understand what blasphemy is.

          • Tey

            Are you saying I can only use it regarding to religion? You are definitely from China. Blasphemy can also be used metaphorically but fine, I’ll change it.

          • noodles76

            Nope. It can also be used in reference to things held sacred. Either way….my earlier point stands. You do not seem to know what the word means.

          • mr.wiener

            I got his meaning. Sorry but I think you are nitpicking a bit.

          • noodles76

            I am. I thought I’d kill some time while waiting for him to explain what culture exactly China exports and to where.

          • Tey

            Maybe the CCCP thought u another meaning, because it clearly also means an impious or disrespectful utterance.

          • noodles76

            Thanks for the protip.

            How about these..
            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blasphemy
            http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blasphemy
            http://www.thefreedictionary.com/blasphemy
            http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/blasphemy
            http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/blasphemy/

            EDIT: You should have stopped sooner. I was just nitpicking before, now you are embarrassing yourself.

            I do not know of those websites are available in Mainland China since I use a VPN that oddly enough, routes through Taiwan.

          • Tey

            Embarrassed myself? The first 2 words in the definition from the first link read impious utterance. Well at least through ur thorough research u actually learned something.

          • noodles76
          • Tey

            Haizz. Again. Impious actually means disrespectful not only to parents but I doubt you will take my word. So, as again, from the first link you posted, look at the synonym section. Class dismissed.

            If you post another reply with links to definition about synonym, u win automatically.

          • noodles76

            You….are…..short bus special aren’t you?

          • mr.wiener

            @Tey and @noodles76
            Girls you are both pretty. At the moment you are splitting hairs and throwing dictionary definitions at each other… which is nearly as pointless as arguing about whether Taiwan belongs to China or China belongs toTaiwan…
            Cease and desist.

          • Tey

            Can I defend myself?

            1st. He is the one throwing dictionary definitions at me

            2nd. My latest post would actually be my last one as I made my point.

            Jesus I am starting to know how Taiwan feels haha

          • mr.wiener

            Yes, but I have to tell you both off so I can look like I’m being fair.
            Now stop chucking biscuits at the troll.

          • noodles76

            I can be trollin…and right at the same time.

          • noodles76

            lolo

          • mr.wiener

            Your initial post also lost it for me when you suggested that in the China vs Taiwan situation , China is the victim.

          • Angie Mac

            You are arguing free speech. Do you not see the irony?

          • Tey

            Precisely!

          • Insomnicide

            China doesn’t bribe Hollywood studios to put Chinese culture into their movies, Hollywood studios want to make a film about Chinese culture and Chinese people so China bribes them not to portray China negatively.

            Hollywood has a fetish for exotic cultures, especially from the far east. The amount of movies they have made centered on China and Japan is insane, the amount of movies they have made centered around Chinese and Japanese characters (usually female, huh) is equally huge.

            China has failed to export it’s ideology. And even exporting it’s culture in the last hundred years. It is the foreign romanticism and oriental-ism from the west which seeks out China.

          • Kai

            There’s Hollywood studios wanting to make films about China/Japan and then there’s Hollywood studios intentionally including Chinese elements in their movies in order to get greater access to the growing Chinese movie market.

            China doesn’t really export ideology in any similar sense to, for example, America. It does try to promote its culture, but its efforts and success are nothing compared to the US, which has reached a point where it does so without even trying.

          • Insomnicide

            Yeah, I can’t decided if it’s hilarious…or crazy that freedom and democracy are now synonymous with USA.

          • Zappa Frank

            nobody blame china for being chinese, but for dictatorship, lack of humans rights, that are universal. Is taiwan less chinese with all those thigs? did somebody blame taiwan for not being culturally western?

          • Andrew

            I don’t care about authoritarianism (see above). As for human rights, I believe ‘lack of human rights’ is grossly overstated in China.

            Is Taiwan less Chinese with Democracy, Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Assembly. No, it’s not. Well, I would say Democracy isn’t a very Chinese institution.

          • Zappa Frank

            Democracy is not a Chinese institution while communist party is?
            Pollution, corruption, laogai, and all the stuff related with a dictatorship are more Chinese?
            sincerely even if they do not speak directly I’ve never heard ANY Chinese that would praise the CCP, you are actually an ultras..

          • mr.wiener

            Kissinger’s ideas on China may be a little dated now, though an excellent read from the master of realpolitic. As to whether state sponsored national socialism capitalism will win against democratic free markets…only time will tell.
            I would suggest that China would have a more secure future if it could somehow find a way to dis~entangle itself from the party controlled crony capitalism regional bully path it seems to be following at the moment.
            This is not to say I am cheer leading for the west however.

          • ex-expat

            Even though the West has it’s problems, you don’t think it’s the best we have at the moment?

          • mr.wiener

            True, but we are not blind to its faults which to my mind is one of its greatest strengths.

          • ex-expat

            Absolutely.

          • Yes!

            I have to point out that Beijing has been aggressively pursuing its policy of exporting its Marxist-Leninism ideology since Mao days in Southeast Asia. China was broadcasting its propaganda into the region from its radio station in Indo-china, while China provided arms and training for communist guerillas fighting in the jungles against the Malaysian government, and had sympathisers in Singapore politics as well as Indonesia. The pro-Beijing Chinese community got slaughtered by Indonesians in a national uprising against China’s attempt to destabilise their government. China’s meddling in SOutheast Asian politics caused grave mistrust between the native Malays and immigrant Chinese which resulted in a bloody racial riots in ’64. These scars have yet to heal even to this day. Mystified that China’s attempts to bring on a China-style socialist government in Southeast Asia failed repeatedly, Deng Xiaopeng visited Singapore, and was shocked to find that the ex-British colony that provided harbor space to imperialist America’s warships, with a majority Chinese population who resisted Chinese big-brother patronage and adopted UK style election system, were much more advanced in terms of city infrastructure, economic and social development compared to his bamboo curtained China. Shortly after that, Deng declared China’s adoption of capitalist principles for China’s economic development. I believe for CPC’s continued survival, China will continue to try to export its ideology on the region, if only to neutralise the influence from the outside world as China’s openness will let in more ideas that can undermine CPC’s power.

          • Alex Dương

            China’s meddling in SOutheast Asian politics caused grave mistrust between the native Malays and immigrant Chinese which resulted in a bloody racial riots in ’64.

            You’re not really this ignorant as to think that the PRC is responsible for race riots in Malaysia, are you?

      • Aaron Wytze

        Keep in rocking in the free world man!

      • Tey

        Jesus! If u r a US citizen then by all means move to China! I’m sure many Chinese will fight for ur spot.

        • Andrew

          I do live in China and am a U.S citizen with. I currently have no plans to live long term in American again.

          • ex-expat

            Lol great use of the English language…very believable.

          • Andrew

            Was typing on the iPad. Made lots of errors. I’ll edit my posts, you know, to show that I’m legit.

          • ex-expat

            算了。你就是一个傻子。你滚吧。

          • noodles76

            Too legit to quit. Right on man. Hammer time motherfuckas1!!!

          • noodles76

            wut? u didnt knew Amrikan? u r stoopid

          • ex-expat

            Lol he got me curious, so I looked at some of his past posts. His English is actually pretty good. I am not sure what to make of it all. Regardless, he is a fucking tool.

            I was actually pretty optimistic about China before I moved there and when I knew nothing about it. Things changed very quickly.

          • Tey

            I am sure America will do fine without you.

          • Andrew

            I’m sure it will. (Not sure the point of your comment).

          • Zappa Frank

            yes, like you can become chinese…

      • noodles76

        Wow you’re more retarded than Alex. Grats. the CCP does not equal China. Taiwan is not a province.

        All the CCP cares about is it’s own survival. they would all let China burn to the fucking ground if it would let them remain in power and rolling in money.

        • Alex Dương

          Can you fucking educate yourself before you act like you know anything about cross-strait politics and Taiwanese independence? Taiwan is a province of the Republic of China. Taiwanese independence seeks to change that.

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is an independent country, dick head.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Republic of China is an independent country.
            There is no country called “Taiwan”

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is my favorite country.

          • Alex Dương

            Wrong. The Republic of China is an independent country.

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is an independent country, dick head.

          • Alex Dương

            OK, Mr. LTTE wannabe, true or false: this is the flag of Taiwan.

            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is an independent country, dick head.

          • Alex Dương

            Answer the question, Mr. LTTE wannabe. True or false? This is the flag of Taiwan.

            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg

          • Tamil Tiger

            Taiwan is an independent country, dick head.

          • Rick in China

            A province with an independent government, passport, monetary system, laws, int’l relationships, language, writing style, ‘culture’?, etc.

            A province to which China forces to bend to China’s demands or they’ll launch some of the rows of missiles pointed directly at them all day, every day.

            A province, indeed.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Do you know the meaning of the term “Republic of China”?

          • Rick in China

            I know that it’s a lie.

            China, like many impoverished countries ran by something other than the people, use the name republic to deceive their own people into thinking they have some sort of freedom. A republic, by definition of the term since it was conceived, indicates rule by the people — not rule by appointed/inherited leaders, but by elected officials. When was the last time you voted?

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I am speechless.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
            please educate yourself.

          • Rick in China

            Oh – I misunderstood what you and what Alex were both saying, and read “republic of China” as people’s republic of China. That’s my mistake.

            However, it’s almost deceptive in this argument and context, knowing full well that the statement saying “Taiwan is not a province of China” implied Taiwan is not a province of *PRC*, not ROC. Mingling references.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            ROC and PRC are both China.

            Just like Korea republic and Democratic People’s Republic of Korea are both Korea.

          • Rick in China

            This I disagree with.

            They are different governments. They both happen to have China in their name, but they are different administrations who were literally at war with each other over the control of this area of the world. If they were “both China”, why would China point missiles at itself?

          • Kai

            He’s not saying they’re the same government.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Why would north Korea point missiles at south Korea?

          • Alex Dương

            You do realize that there is no country in the world officially called Taiwan, yes? That when you say “Taiwan is a country,” you are actually including a very small percentage of mainland China as “Taiwan”?

            Do you all realize that no country in the world conducts diplomatic relations with Taiwan, but 21 U.N. member states recognize “Taiwan” as “China”?

            That’s because there are and have been two Chinas in the world since 1949. Taiwan is a part of one of these two Chinas (the ROC) and not the other (the PRC).

      • Angie Mac

        It was really difficult to get past your first sentence. I kept looking back at it like it was one of those 3D art pieces.

        Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. well…

      • ptptp

        Taiwan is not a renegade province. It’s never been part of the PRC – one can more accurately say that the mainland is a lot of renegade provinces from the ROC. If Taiwan wanted to be part of the PRC, it could have joined peacefully years ago. If the PRC would stop pointing its missiles at the island and threatening invasion if Taiwan formally declares independence, it’s more than likely that the ROC would not exist and the Republic of Taiwan would.

    • Andrew Jacobs

      A good start would be providing the 45 fighter jets that Taiwan wanted to buy from the USA, but China said no way jose…. that would be a great start. We kicked their ass with less machinery.

    • Rick in China

      There already is an invasion of old white dudes in China, you don’t need to officiate it by signing up to the military…

  • IsurvivedChina

    Taiwan is it’s own country and anything else is just here-say!

    • Irvin

      You have any idea how many countries china used to had? Now it’s all part of china. A country is only a country until it’s not.

      • IsurvivedChina

        That’s right, and Taiwan has never been apart of China.

        • Alex Dương

          Then what is the point of the Taiwanese Independence Movement? From what does it seek to be independent?

          • IsurvivedChina

            Taiwan simply wishes to be left alone and to be free from the constant barrage of shitty complaints and ill-gotten justifications that China constantly spews out.

            China has acted like a spoilt child. They (China) pretty much forced all foreign countries who wanted to invest in China to sign the “1 China” Policy which they somehow now use as their excuse to lay claim to lands and waters that are not theirs.

          • Alex Dương

            Taiwan simply wishes to be left alone and to be free from the constant barrage of shitty complaints and ill-gotten justifications that China constantly spews out.

            I don’t think you’ve ever spoken to a single supporter of Taiwanese independence if you think the movement is just about “simply wishing to be left alone.” People who support Taiwanese independence want a country called Taiwan that has nothing to do with China politically. If that were already the case, then the movement would have no reason to exist.

            They (China) pretty much forced all foreign countries who wanted to invest in China to sign the “1 China” Policy which they somehow now use as their excuse to lay claim to lands and waters that are not theirs.

            The lands and waters that you say are not the PRC’s were originally claimed by the ROC. This is how the PRC sees it: the PRC succeeded the ROC, therefore it assumes the claims of the ROC. Can you connect the dots? (Hint: what is the official name of “Taiwan” the country?)

          • IsurvivedChina

            Taiwan will never be apart of China, can you connect those dots!

          • Alex Dương

            It already is a part of China – the Republic of China. Seriously, you know jack shit about the Taiwanese Independence Movement. Why don’t you actually go talk to some Taiwanese independence supporters and ask them why they want independence if they’re already independent from the PRC?

          • IsurvivedChina

            You delusional twat! prove it?

          • Alex Dương

            You’re fucking retarded. You already saw the passport. But if that’s not enough, I’m happy to oblige you.

            Office of the President, ROC (Taiwan)

            You know what ROC stands for, right? Hell, just take a look at the official name of Taiwan’s legislative body. It’s called…wait for it…The Legislative Yuan of Republic of China.

            For someone who talks a lot of shit, you don’t know the FIRST thing about Taiwanese independence .

          • IsurvivedChina

            You last link was great, the first thing you see when you open it is “Taiwan – the Sanctuary of Democracy” nice!

          • Alex Dương

            No, the sanctuary of democracy is referring to the Legislative Yuan.

          • IsurvivedChina

            hahaha whatever, you’re a moron, stfu!

          • Alex Dương

            Dumbass expats like you never cease to crack me up.

          • IsurvivedChina

            and brainwashed morons like you will never be free!

          • Alex Dương

            Dude, stop projecting. When you argue that you’re OK with the KMT pushing the nine-dashed line, but you aren’t OK with the CCP pushing it, that shows that you have no capacity for critical thinking. You can only repeat what partisan outlets tell you.

          • IsurvivedChina

            no dude, it just shows I have chosen the side of truth!

          • Alex Dương

            No, it shows that you’ve chosen ignorance and stupidity. If you’re OK with the KMT pushing the nine-dashed line, then guess what? Those islands that you think aren’t Chinese…are Chinese.

            Do you even know what the full name of the KMT is? Here, take a guess: 中國國民黨. You know what the first two characters mean, right?

          • IsurvivedChina

            USA – know what the last words means…? LOL dude you’re pathetic attempt to justify your claims based on the use of a word is childish! I am out, you win! LOL

          • Alex Dương

            Hey, if you want to tell me that the United States of America is not America, by all means, thanks – I think you just realized how fucking stupid it is to say that the KMT isn’t Chinese.

          • IsurvivedChina

            great talk! keep it up! bye now!

          • Blue

            Now I don’t know much about this, but I know quite a few Taiwanese people, who all feel that they come from an independent country hampered by ties and claims from PRC. Also the name China in their title, to me, is a proud claim to their heritage before exile. Not an admission of ownership. Otherwise we’d be looking at semantic arguments over so many places around the world, such as French Guyana, British Columbia, New England, and a number of other states or provinces. Don’t even get me started on the Virgin Islands!!

          • Alex Dương

            Also the name China in their title, to me, is a proud claim to their heritage before exile.

            Only if you’re a pan-blue (i.e. KMT) supporter. If you’re a pan-green (i.e. DPP / TSU) supporter, having “China” in the official name of your country is something you do not like and want to change.

            Otherwise we’d be looking at semantic arguments over so many places around the world, such as French Guyana, British Columbia, New England,
            and a number of other states or provinces. Don’t even get me started on the Virgin Islands!!

            Setting aside that French Guiana is a part of France and that British Columbia and New England used to be a part of the British Empire, it’s really not semantics at all. Taiwanese independence is not about maintaining the independence of the ROC from the PRC. It is about creating a new country called Taiwan.

          • Blue

            Fair enough. I was a bit pissed when I wrote that and didn’t bother checking Guyana.
            I’ve never heard any Taiwanese person say they’re from ROC, but never asked their stance in this particular situation as I was unaware of it.
            But I do agree with most of the comments, that it’d be preposterous for all Chinese people to decide (I’m supposing in some kind of referendum).
            I can’t remember the exact quote, but my favorite comment was about letting all Chinese decide Taiwan’s fate after the PRC allow all Chinese to choose their government.

          • Alex Dương

            I’ve never heard any Taiwanese person say they’re from ROC, but never
            asked their stance in this particular situation as I was unaware of it.

            You’re very unlikely to hear Taiwanese people say they’re from the ROC; they would have to be very, very, very strongly pro-blue (e.g. Nanjing is the capital of China, not Beijing or Taipei).

            I can’t remember the exact quote, but my favorite comment was about
            letting all Chinese decide Taiwan’s fate after the PRC allow all Chinese
            to choose their government.

            This is basically the KMT’s precondition for Chinese reunification. The irony in the comments here is that I support ROC reunification of mainland China and Taiwan, and I’m basically giving primers on what Taiwanese independence is about; and the people who are arguing against me ostensibly support Taiwanese independence but are using KMT-style talking points.

            That right there tells you how little they know about this topic.

          • Kai

            Hah, no, Fan Liqing’s reiteration of the PRC position is not suggesting a referendum of any sort! It’s just nationalist bullshit meant to sound pleasing to the domestic audience. It is merely saying Taiwan cannot unilaterally decide its own future (meaning formal “independence”) because it is part of China, hence Taiwan can only be independent if the rest of China allows it to be. Effectively (and at least for now), the only Chinese people who can decide that is the non-democratically elected CCP government. But saying “Chinese people” sounds better. It’s all PR speak.

          • Kai

            He said “China” and meant the PRC. I’m guessing he knows Taiwan was part of the ROC, which used to be “China” and could be argued to still be at least a “China” now. If he didn’t, he probably knows now.

            Either way, I think you might be nitpicking his use of a popular modern convention to refer to the PRC as “China” and the ROC as “Taiwan”, and that “Taiwan” has never been under the control of the “China” that is the “PRC”.

          • Alex Dương

            He said “China” and meant the PRC. I’m guessing he knows Taiwan was part of the ROC, which used to be “China” and could be argued to still be at least a “China” now. If he didn’t, he probably knows now.

            I don’t think he knows that now. 48 hours later, he’s still acting as if every time I mention the ROC, I am talking about the PRC.

            Either way, I think you might be nitpicking his use of a popular modern convention to refer to the PRC as “China” and the ROC as “Taiwan”, and that “Taiwan” has never been under the control of the “China” that is the “PRC”.

            I disagree that I am nitpicking here. ISurvivedChina said Taiwan has never been a part of China. As I asked him, if that is true, then what is the point of Taiwanese independence? If they are already independent, then from whom do they seek independence?

            That’s the point I want to make: it’s the fact that Taiwan is a part of “a” China (the Republic of China) that Taiwanese independence seeks to change. A lot of people posting here seem to think that Taiwanese independence is about maintaining the status quo. That is most certainly not what the movement is about; it is very much about changing the status quo.

          • Kai

            I disagree that I am nitpicking here. ISurvivedChina said Taiwan has never been a part of China. As I asked him, if that is true, then what is the point of Taiwanese independence? If they are already independent, then from whom do they seek independence?

            I’m reading the comments from the top on down and I’ve run across your guys’ argument under several separate top-level comments, so I may not be reading the argument as it unfolded in actual chronological order.

            In the way I read it, it initially seemed like you misinterpreted them, but as I read down further, I become less certain that you had no cause to understand them the way you seem to understand them. It doesn’t help that ISurvivedChina seems oblivious to your explanations of ROC vs. PRC and there being “Two Chinas” by just repeating that “Taiwan has never been a communist country!” Not readily being able to separate the concept of “China” from the “PRC” doesn’t reflect well upon someone’s understanding of the Taiwan-China issue.

            …in which I believe I share the same position as you. Sorry if I’m not being fair to you in this argument. I’m very likely not reading the argument as it actually unfolded but I’m trying to be fair.

          • Alex Dương

            No problem. You are being fair; I think you know exactly what I’m saying, but yes, I don’t have to throw invective when I say it.

          • Bob_Barker

            It took me a while to wrap my head around this, what with the semantics and all. Let me try my hand at it.

            First, on the semantics regarding ‘China’. While in common parlance China is used inter-changeably with the PRC, ‘China’ is also commonly used for the territory that is the mainland, regardless of government. Qing Dynasty, still known as China. Yuan dynasty, still China.

            1. The PRC views itself as the legitimate government of China, including the territory that is Taiwan.

            2. The ROC views itself as the legitimate government of China, including the mainland. Even if this isn’t actively pursued anymore, it is my understanding that this is written into the constitution.

            This is part of the reason Taiwan and China can’t be recognized as two different countries. England (or any other country) can’t recognize two governments’ authority over the same territory.

            Taiwan can’t be considered independent at this point. In order to be independent, Taiwan has to be severed from the mainland. Under the ROC constitution, Taiwan is still part of the mainland, with the government in Taipei being a government in exile, holding only a small portion of the territory of the country. That island, is still considered to belong to the bigger whole that is the mainland of China by both the PRC and the ROC. It might seem a semantic argument, but it is relevant to the discussion.

            This is why Taiwanese independence is such a big deal on both sides. It fundamentally changes the underlying concept of the government Taipei. It requires a change to the constitution itself and how the country views itself. It would allow Taiwan to be recognized as well, since they were no longer laying claim to the mainland.

            This isn’t to say that the ROC on Taiwan is not a de facto independent country, but I don’t think Alex has argued that.

          • Alex Dương

            That’s pretty much it. What makes this not so much semantics is that “Taiwan” controls a very small percentage of mainland China – Kinmen and Matsu – as well as the geographically largest of the disputed islands in the South China Sea. These islands were never a part of Taiwan historically, but they are a part of “Taiwan” because of the ROC.

        • Irvin

          Gentlemen, thank you, this is comedy gold and just made my day! :)

    • Tamil Tiger

      Taiwan is an independent country. I never recognise it as part of China, neither does Taiwanese or Chinese.

      • Alex Dương

        I never recognise it as part of China, neither does Taiwanese or Chinese.

        Really? Read what a Taiwanese passport says.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taiwan_ROC_Passport.jpg

        Huh, Republic of “China.” What’s that?

        • noodles76

          Yup, I read it. Did you? REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

          • Alex Dương

            Thanks for making my point for me.

          • noodles76

            lol….you’re functionally retarded aren’t you?

          • Alex Dương

            You drunk, pal? You’re normally stupid, but your last few fails really take the cake. Here, let me summon Captain Obvious and point something out for you: the Republic of China contains the word “China” in it.

            *MIND BLOWN*

            中華民國 contains 中國.

            OMG CONSPIRACY

          • IsurvivedChina

            South America contains the word America but is does not make it North America’s property.

          • Alex Dương

            It doesn’t make it North American. But it is…wait for it…South American.

          • IsurvivedChina

            The passport may contain the word “goglypop”for Taiwanese care, it still doesn’t make it China’s passport – Taiwan passports have much more respect around the world! and its people know that!

          • Alex Dương

            I’m sorry, but Taiwanese passports don’t contain the word “goglypop.” The cover contains the name Republic of China in both English and traditional Chinese (中華民國). If you “survived” China, you ought to be able to recognize the first and last of those characters: 中國. You also ought to know what 中國 means in English.

            Again, you know nothing about the Taiwanese independence movement. It seeks to make a new country called Taiwan, independent of the ROC. You can scream “Taiwan will never be a part of China” all you want, but you won’t change that at present, it is a province of the ROC, and that is exactly what Taiwanese independence supporters are pissed about.

          • IsurvivedChina

            China and the CCP is just shitty that for the first few decades of it’s existence as a communist state – The KMT in Taiwan was it’s recognised form of government. Then Mao went and played pingpong with the American devil and things changed. In the mean time, the people of Taiwan became free, formed a democracy and have elected their own President. How about them apples?

          • Alex Dương

            Congratulations! You just proved that you’re a complete fucking dumbass. So let me get this straight: if the CCP pushes the nine-dashed line, you think it’s bullshit; but if the KMT pushes the nine-dashed line, you’re OK with it?

            FYI, Taiwan doesn’t have a President. Again, this is something Taiwanese independence supporters are unhappy about. Their President, Ma Ying-jeou, is the President of the Republic of China. You know how to talk a lot of shit about China, but you don’t know anything about cross-strait politics.

          • IsurvivedChina

            yawn .. even for a troll you’re retarded!

          • Alex Dương

            No, the retard is you. You’re commenting on Taiwanese independence, and you don’t know a single thing about what the movement stands for. You’ve clearly never spoken to a single Taiwanese person about this, ever.

          • IsurvivedChina

            keep talking – moron!

          • Alex Dương

            Again, the moron here is you. Bro, do you even have any Taiwanese friends in real life? Go talk to one and ask them why Taiwanese independence is even a thing if Taiwan is already independent. Learn something instead of being an ignorant dumbass.

          • IsurvivedChina

            still bitching like a spoilt child, – Taiwan is its own country – get over it!

          • Alex Dương

            The spoiled one here is clearly you. I’m telling you to educate yourself by talking to an actual Taiwanese person about this. You’re here still acting like you know anything when you don’t know shit about Taiwanese independence.

            It’s because Taiwan isn’t its own country that Taiwanese Independence exists as a movement. Connect the fucking dots, dumbass.

          • IsurvivedChina

            Dude, you are obviously mentally retarded if you believe that crap you’re spewing and no amount of evidence is ever going to make you see the truth! Have you spoken to Taiwanese people? Have you asked them?

          • Alex Dương

            No, bud, you’re mentally retarded if you can’t connect these dots. I have already shown you several examples of Taiwan clearly being a part of the Republic of CHINA. That is a fact, and that is what upsets pro-independence Taiwanese. They don’t want to be a part of the Republic of China; they want to be a part of a new country, possibly called the Republic of Taiwan.

            Only dumbasses such as yourself would actually try to argue that

            中華民國 = 台灣
            中華民國 =|= 中國

          • IsurvivedChina

            so you argument hinges on a word! well done keep it up! moron.

          • Alex Dương

            So you don’t want to admit that the Republic of China is China. You want to act like you know what the fuck you’re talking about regarding Taiwanese independence when you don’t know shit about it. Good job!

          • IsurvivedChina

            I don’t have to be a moron to realise that Taiwan is not a communist country – they will never be! Taiwan will never be under the CCP’s control, get over it! Stop acting like a little child and realise you lost an island but gained the mainland – not a bad deal considering.

          • YourSupremeCommander

            Hiow wrong and how dense can you be girl?

          • Alex Dương

            You fucking dumbass. I’ve been referring to the Republic of China for the past 48 hours, and you thought I was referring to the People’s Republic of China? Buddy, if you don’t even know the difference between the PRC and the ROC, you are not qualified to comment here. Go educate yourself.

          • IsurvivedChina

            Oh I am not confused by the use of a word – you’re stuck on it and that is your loss not mine. In the modern day – Taiwan has evolved into a progressive modern society and she wants nothing to do with the Communist ideals that currently cloud China (ideals that are too many to list). They are happy to trade and do business, shit, they’ll even allow tourists from the mainland to visit Taiwan (for which they need a visa and a passport) but the people of Taiwan are free, they know it – it will never embrace communist control!

          • Alex Dương

            This is what I keep saying: “Taiwan is a part of the ROC.” This is how you choose to misread it: “Taiwan is a part of the PRC.” You’re an idiot.

          • noodles76
          • Alex Dương

            Hey, good job, now you know what the Taiwanese Independence Movement is about.

          • noodles76

            And now you know that it’s not China even though it has the word China in it (lol).

          • Alex Dương

            Pfft. Buddy, until today, you didn’t even know what Taiwanese independence was about. Your first comment was this, remember?

            Yup, I read it. Did you? REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

            Apparently that op-ed was your first exposure to Taiwanese independence ideology, and now you act like you knew it all along? You’re a fucking dumbass.

          • Mighty曹

            Not here to settle this argument but…. this is my understanding (I can be wrong):
            ROC was first established in the mainland until Mao drove the KMT out who then took ‘refuge’ on the island of Formsa, which became Taiwan. It was basically a government ‘in exile’ that was recognized by just about the entire world. The commies then called itself the Peoples’ Republic of China (commies just love to use the word People to project popularity).

            Let’s not forget that ROC (Taiwan) was a member of the UN until PRC’s power and influence grew to the point that it could not be ignored. The world, namely the US, started kissing up to the commies and recognized them as the ligit China instead of Taiwan. Then all the political wrangling with names containing ‘China’ began. ROC’s name was even dropped in order to participate in the Olympics under ‘Chinese Taipei’. (Stupid)

            Having ‘China’ in the name doesn’t mean it belongs to the current PRC. It’s just a historic or symbolic name. When I fly China Airlines I’m sure glad it’s not any of the mainland Chinese carriers.

            You guys can draw your conclusion from this. I’m heading out for some drinks!

          • noodles76

            You said it brother, enjoy your drinks!

          • Alex Dương

            You didn’t say anything wrong. noodles was just being a complete dumbass. He didn’t even read that op-ed correctly; the author argued that the Republic of China was not Taiwan, not that the Republic of China was not China.

          • noodles76

            Pretty sure, you missed what he was saying. I don’t want to put words into his mouth so I’ll leave it at that. it’s also possible I am incorrect.

          • Alex Dương

            Nope.

          • Kai

            The problem is that Alex doesn’t mean Taiwan belongs to the PRC while those he’s arguing with insist on interpreting him as saying that. I feel Alex may be nitpicking with their use of “China” to refer to the PRC, but their behavior in refusing to understand Alex’s point is pretty unbecoming. To be fair, Alex is throwing invective too.

          • noodles76

            It’s not Alex nitpicking. the dude flat out posted a pic of a Taiwanese passport that says Republic of China on it thinking it would prove his point. It didn’t. The dumbfuck said more than once …it has China in the name therefore it’s China. Not by a fucking long shot. He got called out on it by more than one person.

          • Alex Dương

            the dude flat out posted a pic of a Taiwanese passport that says Republic of Korea [sic] on it thinking it would prove his point. It didn’t.

            Yeah, I posted a picture of a Taiwanese passport that clearly says “Republic of China” in both English and traditional Chinese on it. You then tried to argue that this doesn’t prove that Taiwan is a part of China because China can only refer to the PRC.

            Uh, no. The ROC is “a” China.

          • noodles76

            Go tell that to the people who live in Taiwan.

          • Alex Dương

            Tell them what? That they’re a part of the ROC? That ROC is “a” China?

          • noodles76

            Yup. Go tell the people in Taiwan that they’re under PRC rule. Don’t half ass it. tell them they are the same as Mainland Chinese.

          • Alex Dương

            Go tell the people in Taiwan that they’re under PRC rule.

            When have I ever said that Taiwan is a part of the PRC? God, you and ISurvivedChina are just fucking dumbasses; sorry Kai, I don’t have any patience for this bullshit anymore.

            I keep saying Taiwan is a part of the ROC, and your brain deliberately changes the “R” to a “P” and the “O” to an “R.”

          • noodles76

            You said they’re part of China because there is China on the passports. China…as the world knows it (and you have to be beyond dense to argue) is mainland China and the PRC.

          • Alex Dương

            “As the world knows it”? What is up with you guys and appeals to ignorance? Your own posts perfectly illustrate how ignorant “as the world knows it” can be, especially on a topic as complex as cross-strait politics.

            Until this past weekend, you had no idea what Taiwanese independence is about. You thought the movement is just about maintaining the status quo. It’s not. It’s about changing the status quo by creating a new country called Taiwan.

            Until this past weekend, you thought the ROC is Taiwan. It’s not. The ROC actually controls a very small percentage of mainland China: Kinmen and Matsu are part of Fujian Province, ROC. Did you actually read that Taipei Times op-ed at all? If you did, you’d see that the author is willing to “sell out” Kinmen and Matsu to the PRC because they are not Taiwanese: “The ROC government may claim sovereignty over Quemoy [Kinmen] and Matsu.
            It has no legitimate claim over Taiwan and the Penghu islands.”

            You pretend to be a mature, sophisticated commenter, but in reality, you are just a simpleton dumbass. I never said that Taiwan is a part of the PRC. Ever. I have consistently said that it is a part of the ROC, therefore it is Chinese. There are two Chinas in the world, it’s been like that since 1949, and what ignoramuses like you think you know but don’t doesn’t change that.

          • Kai

            Uh, it does prove his point. At this point (hah), it is you who is not or is incapable of understanding his point, which isn’t that difficult nor should it be that esoteric for most China watchers.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas

            I said @haysoosnegro:disqus was nitpicking because I felt he should’ve understood that you guys were saying “China” and thinking of the PRC. As others have pointed out, and with whom I agree with, this isn’t odd because that’s how most people use the word “China” these days. Popular convention is that “China” refers to the “PRC”. Alex knows this and acknowledges this without hesitation whatsoever.

            His point however was that Taiwan can’t semantically be its own “independent” country IF there’s an independence movement in it. The reason it is a issue of semantics is because Taiwan is de facto independent by almost all measures but not so de jure. The reason is ALSO because, as Alex explained again and again, that the Taiwanese independence movement is about separating Taiwan from the actual, larger ROC entity that it currently is. What he’s saying is not incorrect whatsoever. You dismissing him is.

            There’s nothing wrong with thinking “China” refers to the PRC. There’s nothing wrong with thinking Taiwan is not part of the “China” that is the PRC, never was, and hoping it never will be. There is however something wrong with failing to recognize the historical and socio-political issues that gave rise to the notion of there being two Chinese states or “two Chinas”.

            If you didn’t know, that’s fine. But dismissing Alex after you’ve been given explanations and references to this fact is insisting on being stubborn and stupid. What’s the profit in your behavior here?

            You and ISC are both failing to understand Alex’s point. It’s difficult for me personally to understand why, not because I’m already familiar with the facts he’s arguing, but because I don’t think Alex is being unclear either. The way you guys are responding suggests either problems with reading comprehension or a failure to read at all. Perhaps even a lack of interest in educating yourself about the actual issue involved. That’s disturbing and Alex’s frustration is not entirely unfounded even if I think he didn’t need to open this can of worms initially with you guys.

            Taiwan is officially the “Republic of China”, a state that was once conventionally known as “China” but no longer. Officially, it still claims to be the soverign state of “China”. In reality, it has pretty much no hope of ever retaking the mainland AND many of its current citizens would like to change the sovereign state of ROC into a sovereign state of “Taiwan”. That’s what the Taiwanese indepdendence movement is about. There is technically no “Taiwan” as a sovereign state, only a name that refers to the ROC.

            The ROC is officially a “China”. For a period of history, it was the ONLY “China”. As that history fades into the past, the world has moved on to accepting the PRC as “China” and the ROC as simply “Taiwan”. However, anyone who is genuinely concerned with the issue of cross-strait relations between the “China” and “Taiwan” must know why the distinction between “ROC” and “PRC” matters a whole fucking lot in how the two governments conduct both domestic and international diplomacy, trade, and politics, especially with each other.

          • Mighty曹

            To be honest I didn’t read the beginning of how this all started. I saw the part about the two Korea’s as a comparison to the two China’s. That was enough to cause a headache.

          • Alex Dương

            Of course a big difference is that North / South Korea are roughly equal in geographic size whereas mainland China is much larger than Taiwan. The comparison to Korea is thus very imperfect. Still, I brought up Korea because I find it absolutely mindbogglingly stupid that people are actually trying to argue that ROC is not “a” China because “everybody” knows it’s not.

            There actually is an argument that Taiwan is not a part of the ROC, and thus not a part of any China, but none of my detractors are aware of it. The sad part is that this argument is explained in a Taipei Times op-ed that noodles linked to but clearly did not read.

          • Mighty曹

            After Kai pointed out exactly what you were arguing about I realized what you’ve been trying to say. I guess,in ‘modern’ time ROC=Taiwan=Country. That’s everyone’s mindset, including mine. But if someone says, “Taiwan is a part of the ROC that originated in the mainland, which WAS China”, that may clarify it more.

            Actually this is a great ‘trivial question’ for a bar bet.

          • Alex Dương

            Oh, you bet this is a good trivia question. I’m very sure that “everybody” does not know that “Taiwan” controls ~0.1% of mainland Chinese territory.

          • Rick in China

            As I said earlier – I misread what you said and mistook your “China” for PRC, not ROC – because, commonly, today, ROC is referred to as “Taiwan” and PRC is referred to as “China”. You of course are factually correct that “China” has been a label for both government/countries at some point in time, however, you’re being a little bit deceptive with how you’re posing your statements – you surely know full well they will be misinterpreted within the context of this article and this thread, and are simply looking to stir the pot.

            So, in summary, I misread earlier – you are right – and to rephrase the misunderstanding, “Taiwan doesn’t ‘belong’ to the PRC.”

            We all happy now?

          • Alex Dương

            If I just said “Taiwan is a part of China” and left it at that, that would be provocative and stirring the pot. But I never just left it at that; I always qualified my comment by emphasizing that I was referring to the Republic of China.

            But yeah, we cool.

          • Kai

            I feel you, I had trouble following how the entire argument unfolded since it spilled over into multiple threads that weren’t necessarily in chronological order.

      • noodles76

        Well, the problem is that the Chinese try to.

  • Tamil Tiger

    Who is this prostitute looking old lady?

    • Irvin

      Someone who survived dongguan.

  • mr.wiener

    …and we are still trying to get over our loss…

    • Mighty曹

      LOL!

  • IsurvivedChina

    Sorry dude, but you’re an idiot, I backed away from that troll because talking to him was like talking to a brick wall! His argument is based solely on the fact that Taiwan belongs to China because it has the “China” on it’s passport. I ridiculous assumption at best.

    • Alex Dương

      Here’s your problem: you are mentally unable to comprehend the reality that there are actually two sovereign Chinas in the world today, and that this has been the case since 1949. Taiwan does not belong to the People’s Republic of China. But it is a province of the Republic of China.

      It is that last fact that motivates Taiwanese independence. They don’t want to be part of a province of the Republic of China. They want to be part of a country called Taiwan, not a country that called the Republic of China.

      You know NOTHING about Taiwanese independence, and you are so damn ignorant you aren’t even willing to talk to a Taiwanese person about it. All you can do is talk shit about things you don’t know.

      • IsurvivedChina

        You basically have just shown how retarded you really are! Good job!

        • Alex Dương

          Man, I always thought you were a bit of a tool, but it wasn’t until this article that I realized that you’re a complete idiot.

          • Guang Xiang

            Welp, if you want a Taiwanese’s opinion, I got to say that Alex got the situation pretty spot-on. The others need to realize that when you’re saying ROC is a part of China, doesn’t mean Taiwan actually belongs to PRC.

          • Alex Dương

            The others need to realize that when you’re saying ROC is a part of China, doesn’t mean Taiwan actually belongs to PRC.

            I actually have to say I’m shocked that I couldn’t get that point across.

          • Guang Xiang

            I think it’s a ‘face’ thing

          • Alex Dương

            Sad but true.

          • IsurvivedChina

            I don’t have to be an idiot to realise that Taiwan is not a communist country!

          • Alex Dương

            But you do have to be (and are) an idiot to keep misunderstanding my comments. I never said Taiwan is a part of the People’s Republic of China. I said it is a part of the Republic of China.

            You are a fraud. You “survived” China, and you don’t even know the difference between the PRC and the ROC?

          • SzMach5

            Alex, I’ve been reading your posts and I kind of get what you’re saying.

            Maybe you should show them a map of the ROC to help clear things up better. Hopefully I linked the right image to this comment.
            While, on the other hand, the PRC would just be a map of current mainland China.

            Link to ROC map:
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg/754px-ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg.png

          • Alex Dương

            You’re right; a map may have helped.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_map.png

            But I also directed ISurvivedChina to two official Taiwanese government web pages, and he still refused to acknowledge that Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China.

          • IsurvivedChina

            Ask any person where he/she is from, and they will tell you “I am from Taiwan” every single time. They will never say “I am from the republic of China” that’s a tittle that harks back to the old days and it has no use in modern day Taiwan. The people of Taiwan have progressed forward from those antiquated ideals – They are free proud and happy to be called Taiwanese!

          • Alex Dương

            You are so ignorant on this issue that you don’t even realize what your statements imply: you’re basically saying there is no need for Taiwanese independence because it is already independent. That is a position that in modern Taiwanese politics has come to be associated with the KMT. Only recently has the DPP shown any sign of accepting it, and the TSU staunchly disagrees with that viewpoint.

            You don’t even know what the KMT, DPP, and TSU stand for, literally and figuratively.

    • Kai

      No, his argument is based on the “China” that Taiwan belongs to being different from the “China” that you think of as the “PRC” but still being a “China”. See my response to him here.

      He’s arguing with you because what you were thinking of when saying “China” was different from what he thinks “China” can refer to. He’s not a troll, he just disagrees with what he interpreted of your comment, and you didn’t seem to help him realize his uncharitable misinterpretation.

      • Alex Dương

        Kai, I must disagree that I made a misinterpretation here. I have consistently made sure to qualify my statement that Taiwan is a part of China by emphasizing that it is a part of the Republic of China. At no point did I ever say “Taiwan is a part of China” and not qualify the statement by defining China as the ROC. ISurvived either cannot understand or refuses to understand that officially, there are two Chinas in the world.

        Of course, one of those Chinas is commonly referred to as “Taiwan” and the other as “China.” Not denying that. But officially, Taiwan’s a part of a China known as the ROC, that is a fact, and that is something that Taiwanese independence seeks to change.

        The last part is the point I want to make: it’s precisely because Taiwan is a part of a China (the ROC) that Taiwanese independence is even a thing. Because if it’s not a part of either China, then what’s the independence about?

        • Kai

          See the response I just made to your other reply to me.

          Again, I don’t see anything wrong with what you’ve said. It makes sense to me just fine. I’ve only questioned if you were bringing it up over a misunderstanding of what ISurvivedChina intended to say, but again, I grant that I may only think that because I’m not able to read the argument as it actually unfolded and am just reading this entire comments section from top-down.

      • IsurvivedChina

        I think his point is just a cover, a justification if you will, to maintain the desire that the CCP has to annex Taiwan. My point is simple, Taiwan has evolved.

        • Kai

          Dude, if you seriously think that is what @haysoosnegro:disqus desires, then you’re more or less proving his criticisms of you correct. You don’t seem to be reading what he’s said and have instead been arguing with some straw man you’ve conjured inside your head. As a result, he’s been fairer to you in the argument between you two than you have been to him.

          If anything, Alex’s fantasy is for the ROC/Taiwan to annex mainland China and replace the CCP government. He’s made this abundantly clear several times now. Nothing he said had anything to do with disagreeing with your “point” that Taiwan has evolved over the years. Be fair and actually spend some time reading what he’s saying and TRYING to understand the point HE’S making. He extended you the same courtesy.

          • Alex Dương

            If anything, Alex’s fantasy is for the ROC/Taiwan to annex mainland China and replace the CCP government.

            Yep. ROC annexation of the mainland is literally fantastical. A slightly more realistic (but sadly, still quite unlikely) scenario is that in the future, the CCP negotiates with the Taiwanese government on what the conditions are for peaceful ROC reunification, or perhaps the creation of a new Chinese state with a different name and a different constitution.

          • Kai

            Hah, yeah, unfortunately, it does look unlikely at this point in time. All hopes are based on political liberalization in mainland China over time but it’s hard to be sure if and on what timetable it may happen to a point where the ROC and PRC can somehow merge peacefully and to the mutual benefit of its people.

            From my perspective, it’s really hard for the Taiwan side. Its bargaining chips (what it can bring to the table that would benefit China) are devaluing as time goes on and China catches up, yet there are very compelling reasons for not thinking reunification is remotely reasonable at this point in time with regards to safeguarding existing interests. I’m afraid Taiwan as a whole may be doomed to eventual irrelevance. I want so badly for it to be a catalyst that makes “China” better, faster.

          • noodles76

            China is losing ground, not catching up. More and more overseas companies are choosing to do business outside of Mainland China due to a number of reasons.

            That said, I agree (and stated earlier) that ‘reunification’ is not likely. especially considering the negative attitudes many Taiwanese have for the PRC and/or Mainland Chinese.

  • IsurvivedChina

    nice reply!

  • Andrew

    Within a generation, Taiwan will normalize relationships with mainland in a similar fashion as Hong Kong, mostly at the behest of the U.S. China will not invade Taiwan, but it will engage in closer Economic cooperation, drawing it into closer contact with the mainland. Eventually, the mainland will basically give Taiwan and option: Either become a two systems/one state enerity like Homg Kong or lose any further Economic development/integration with China.

    Basically, all China needs is a Pro-mainland government to start economic cooperation and the rest will be history.

    • RagnarDanneskjold

      On the other side is demographics: younger Taiwanese favor independence. If they stick to that position as they age, there will never be integration, at least not as the CCP currently favors. In the long-run, Taiwan will fall under China’s sphere of influence whether it is independent or not.

      • Andrew

        Agreed. But, the U.S will not support Taiwan independence. The stance of the U.S Government has been basically an implicit agreement of the two systems/one state.

        The U.S policy is that there is only one China: PRC. If the U.S were to say otherwise, it would be a huge blow to China and would immediately sour Sino-US Relations. Basically, the U.S cannot grant Taiwan independence without reverting to pre-opening up relations with China.

        I imagine the moment U.S supports Taiwan independence the U.S Ambassador is immediately expelled from China.

    • Warren Lauzon

      I don’t think so. Anti-China, or more specifically Anti-CCP sentiment is growing in not only Taiwan, but in Hong Kong as well.

  • David

    My favorite comment:

    “China’s future? That’s up for America to decide. America’s future? That’s up for aliens to decide.”

    I am not sure what kind of acid he dropped, but it is entertaining.

  • David

    OK,that is the punchline but where is the funny part of the joke?

  • David

    Not to mention letting the DECEDENTS of some aboriginal people decide on the fate of millions of people who live there is just silly.

    • Rick in China

      This is happening all over the world – so, the question is, what do you do with, or say to, a people who have no land to call their own, and have been ‘migrated’ out of popular control of the land once theirs?

      • David

        Well, we are going to have to disagree on this. I do not think people have an ‘inherent right’ to any particular land. As an example, In the U.S. the west belonged to Mexico before we took it in 1849. The Mexicans took it from the Spanish 24 years before that. The Spanish took it from the native Americans 300 years before that. The native Americans who lost it took it from other tribes hundreds of years before that. So who has the right to the land? The people who first settled it 20,000 ago are 20,000 years dead. The land changed control hundreds of times in that time. Someday somebody may take it from the Americans who are there now. They will try to defend it and if they can they keep it and if they can’t they lose it. Then they stay and become part of the new society (if allowed) or move on (if allowed) or die. It is not a judgment of right or wrong, this is simply life..

        • Zappa Frank

          else we all come back to Olduvai valley and give back the world to arcaic homo species, like it was 80k years ago.. Too bad they got extinct already..

          • Rick in China

            That’s kind of a ridiculous exaggeration of the point, and doesn’t fit the situation mentioned above at all. I’ve been through the Olduvai (Oldupai) gorge, driving over the course of 4 or so days, and the land is basically unoccupied by much in terms of permanent settlement..the occasional camp at most, and the maasai there are almost exclusively nomadic, going from brush-built set of huts to brush-built set of huts following wherever their goats (or less frequenty cows) can graze. There’s no land dispute. There are certainly occupation/land disputes in other places.

            So basically, according to the logic above, US could (if they choose to) say, “Ok. Iraq and all it’s resources is now ours. Iraqis can try to become refugees elsewhere, otherwise we kill you. We’re occupying this land, therefor, it’s ours – take it from us if you think you can.” And that’s “just life”….. no?

        • Rick in China

          There is *some* reason to that position, and it’s occasionally one I entertain. You’ve answered my question — let me reiterate so I can make sure:

          “so, the question is, what do you do with, or say to, a people who have no land to call their own, and have been ‘migrated’ out of popular control of the land once theirs?”

          Your answer, as I read it is, essentially: “You (maybe) allow them to either stay and join ‘new’ society, move on, or die, and tell them: this is simply life.”

          That sound about right?

          • David

            Well, I think each society works that out themselves without being ‘told’ what is right or wrong, but yes, basically.

  • Aaron Wytze

    I’m with Honibaz on this one. The Taiwanese First Nations people probably saw the Han Chinese people that came from Fujian as invaders. And the word “migration” very safely removes any connotation that the Han were not violent oppressors of the Taiwanese First Nation peoples who lived there many a millennia before the Han arrived.

  • noodles76

    But…but…it says China on their passport!! hurfdurf

    • Alex Dương

      Your comments on this article in the past 24 hours have been by far the stupidest you have ever written, and you’re pretty stupid, so that’s saying something. Bro, you didn’t even read that Taipei Times op-ed correctly: he didn’t say the Republic of China is not China; he said Taiwan is not the Republic of China. Dumbass.

      • noodles76

        Great post. I don’t even think I’ll bother really replying. I’ll just leave it there for all to see.

        • Alex Dương

          Thank you. Finally, you show some sense.

    • Yes!

      North Korea and South Korea have separate passports with “Korea” on them too.

  • Alex Dương

    Taiwanese independence movement aside,…

    This is your problem right here, Brian. You can’t “set aside” the Taiwanese independence movement in a discussion about Taiwan being a part of China (or not).

  • Angie Mac

    This was actually one of the most surprising stories I’ve seen. Not so much the story, but the general replies. My question is (no insult intended); were only the negative comments picked out, or was this the general sentiment?

    It’s rather interesting, the statements that were made a few days later by the bureau.

  • Aaron Wytze

    Taiwan’s “aboriginal situation” is no different than the British coming to Canada, Australia, or America. I suggest this article to bring you up to speed on the history of First Nations people in Taiwan.

    http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/taiwan/first-nations-taiwan-special-report-taiwans-indigeno

    • Confucius

      Aaron, that first paragraph was wrong. Try reading more than one biased account (I use biased here instead of giving the author some benefit of doubt because he clearly chose to use emotive words like “forced” and “bear the brunt of” etc). The author also chose to see invasion where others would find the use of that term very loose. It will be like saying the British invaded North America rather than colonised it etc. You need to first define your concepts me terms then you can hold rational debate. The concept of occupation by the Qing is almost laughable (try reading about what a headache Taiwan was for them). And the concept of colonisation is as foreign to the ‘ancient’ Chinese as the concept of ‘democacy’. Even the biased contrivance of saying that the Taiwanese aboriginals were not consulted in the 1895 treaty of shimonoseki is just ridiculous. The Han settlers were equally not consulted and equally p*ssed off. Seriously, Aaron, basing your views on articles that are biased really doesn’t improve your understanding of both sides, it simply entrenches your own already held views and opinions

      • Aaron Wytze

        Thanks for the advice Confucius. I look forward to your published paper that rebuts and refutes this Professors well-researched paper on the First Nations people of Taiwan.

  • David

    no, please explain using small words.

  • Alex Dương

    Please, don’t overrate your intelligence, Brian. The irony of this discussion is completely lost on you. I support ROC reunification, yet here I am explaining Taiwanese independence to a bunch of seemingly pro-independence people who clearly don’t know the first thing about the movement. You ostensibly support Taiwanese independence, yet everything you say is more-or-less a KMT talking point. You do know that the KMT is not pro-independence, yes?

    See, if you say that “the ROC is Taiwan,” then whether you like it or not, you’re admitting that Taiwan is a part of a Chinese nation called the Republic of China. You can scream “semantics” all you like, but you can’t change that fact.

    Like several other people posting here, you don’t know anything about Taiwanese independence. You think it is just about maintaining the status quo. It isn’t. It is about creating a new country called Taiwan that is not a part of either the Republic of China or the People’s Republic of China. Right now, Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China, therefore it is Chinese, and that is what Taiwanese independence seeks to change.

    Educate yourself before you use KMT talking points to argue for Taiwanese independence.

    • Kai

      I think Brian was just saying what I said above as well, that he understood ISurvivedChina (ISC) as referring to the PRC and that you may be nitpicking semantics. It’s not that your point is invalid, it just seems unnecessary if we interpreted ISC as referring to the PRC.

      As I understand it now, you took issue with ISCarguing that Taiwan is its own country and has never been a part of China, by wanting to make the point that the very exitence of a Taiwanese Independence movement contradicts such statements. The reason for this is of course because the independence movement is all about separating the island of Taiwan from the notion of a “China” nation. ISC doesn’t actually get what you’re getting at and instead thinks you’re advocating that Taiwan is part of or belongs to the PRC. More confusion and angst ensues.

      Have I got this right? If so, I think you introduced a point of argument that ISC was esoteric to what ISC thought he was saying. You were on the wavelength of it being impossible and illogical to think of Taiwan as its own country if there’s a well-known independence movement, because why else would there be one, right? I get that. I don’t think ISC was nearly on the same wavelength. He’s just reiterating the stereotypical position of Taiwan not being part of the PRC and fuck the PRC for thinking Taiwan is part of it. Totally different levels of thought. As you say, he still may not know where you were coming from and is interpreting you unfairly.

      I still however think maybe you should’ve just understood him as meaning the PRC, as saying something commonly said these days, and not tried to make him think about how his statements/beliefs don’t actually quite reconcile with the existence of the Taiwanese independence movement. I get you also feel he’s revealed that he doesn’t actually understand what the Taiwanese independence movement really is, but at the same time, I think a lot of people misunderstand it that way as well. You’re on a different level of rhetoric than he is and thus not connecting.

      • Alex Dương

        As I understand it now, you took issue with ISCarguing that Taiwan is its own country and has never been a part of China, by wanting to make the point that the very exitence of a Taiwanese Independence movement contradicts such statements.

        ISC doesn’t actually get what you’re getting at and instead thinks you’re advocating that Taiwan is part of or belongs to the PRC. More confusion and angst ensues.

        Exactly (and unfortunately to the second part).

        I still however think maybe you should’ve just understood him as meaning the PRC, as saying something commonly said these days, and not tried to make him think about how his statements/beliefs don’t actually quite reconcile with the existence of the Taiwanese independence movement. I get you also feel he’s revealed that he doesn’t actually understand what the Taiwanese independence movement really is, but at the same time, I think a lot of people misunderstand it that way as well. You’re on a different level of rhetoric than he is and thus not connecting.

        I guess I made an ass of myself and others by wrongly assuming mutual knowledge of Taiwanese independence ideology. Still, I think cognitive dissonance is at play here. ISC, noodles, and others know full well that common sense dictates that the Republic of China is, at the very least, “a” China. But they also “know” that “China” is the PRC. This becomes a contradiction to them: how can Taiwan be part of “a” China but not “China”?

        ISC chose to resolve this contradiction by pretending that the ROC does not exist; there’s one China, the PRC, and Taiwan isn’t a part of that one China. noodles chose to resolve this contradiction by arguing that you can’t take names at face value; the DPRK isn’t democratic, therefore the ROC isn’t China.

        Neither chose the easiest, simplest, and factually correct way of resolving the contradiction: officially, there are two Chinas in the world. One may be commonly referred to as simply China and the other Taiwan, but officially, there are still two. Taiwan is a part of one of these two Chinas and not the other.

        • Kai

          Hah, dude, no worries. I sometimes wonder how often I’m (perhaps) unfairly assuming the other person knows certain things that I think are “obvious”, and being critical of them for it. It happens.

  • Kai

    The polls he’s referring to don’t have any Taiwanese identifying themselves as Chinese “nationals”. They have them identifying themselves as both “Taiwanese” and “Chinese” as an “identity” by itself. It’s like Shanghai people identifying themselves as both “Shanghainese” and “Chinese” at the same time.

    Aaron’s point is that he feels the people who answered that way are probably less likely to answer that way now given their impressions of mainland tourists. The word “Chinese” has taken on more negative connotations for them, so they may be more loathe to associate or be associated with the label, regardless of whether or not they actually are of Chinese descent.

  • Kai

    The problem with beef noodles is that just about everyone serves them but it’s not like all of them are good. I had a really hard time finding good beef noodles in Taiwan as well, but when you do find good ones, there’s no denying why it’s something of a national food for Taiwan.

    Agree on beaches. Agree that there are still impolite and uncouth people. I don’t like the Taiwanese accent either (but dislike the “R” accent as well if not more). Agree on the rising self-righteous arrogance of being “Taiwanese not Chinese”. Weather is pretty bad, especially in the summer, but that’s not really something that can be helped. Agree on plenty of littering if you actually open your eyes to it, especially outside the most cosmopolitan areas, but I’d still argue it’s still generally better than the general situation in the mainland.

  • AG

    It all decided by President Xi. Like Mao said, political power is born with military power. This rule also applies to the greatest Democracy of USA. With voting, UK will never give America independence. You have to win by blood and death.
    Democracy my ass.

  • Kai

    I don’t see how, unless “interesting” is code for “more in line with my own position/bias/prejudices”.

  • Mateusz82

    Taiwan’s situation is very different indeed. In Australia, a foreign colonizing force took over the land from the aboriginal people, making the native population essentially second class citizens in their ancestral home. In Taiwan, a foreign colonizing force took over the land from the aboriginal people, making the native population essentially second class citizens in their ancestral home… but the British colonizers were white Europeans, so they should be held responsible for their historic crimes, while the Han Chinese were yellow. Since colonization is only bad when white people do it, no worries.

    • Zappa Frank

      i’ve learnt today that our countries develop is based on slavery while chinese is based on fair commerce.. we really never stop to learn things, it must be that our books, tv and internet are censored and than… wait a minute..

      • Mateusz82

        I guess the Japanese who invaded China must have been white Europeans, since, you know, they’re the only colonizing force. Either that, or the Nanjing Massacre must have been a figment of the imagination, just like the Mongolian conquest of Europe.

        I mean, it’s just crazy to think that tribalism and aggressive expansion are as inherent to one race as another. Much more logical to conclude that white people are always chaotic evil… it’s just their alignment. Like orcs or Drow.

        • Zappa Frank

          hahaha, yes i’m pretty sure that in a D&D vision of the world white people must be chaotic evil, they simply enjoy it. But according to comments i read hear white people must be orcs because are brutish and stupid, no matter if all the things that people in china are using come from whites people’s ideas, they are stupid.

          • bujiebuke

            Depends on which monster manual your referring to, the half-orc was one of the main playable characters in 3.5. The regular orcs were in the monster manual and their alignment was usually chaotic, but not always evil.

            I’d say Chinese people are more chaotic neutral, they just don’t give a damn and do whatever drives their motivation.
            Chinese racial ability: +1 to agility, -1 to constitution. Favoured alignment: chaotic neutral. Favoured god: Corporation

          • Kai

            Hah, this shit is hilarious. How are we defining constitution here? Does their ability to tolerate all sorts of poisons in their food help?

            Not sure if god is corporation. I’d say “money”.

          • bujiebuke

            Constitution in D&D refers to health and toughness. The amount of hit points your char. has is modified by in part by your constitution. There is a perception that Chinese expats in north america appear un-athletic and prone to becoming sick. Never heard about the ability to tolerate all sorts of poisons. Maybe they can get a +1 to survivalist check, but they’re no poison master – that’s a prestige class.

            According to the U.S. Supreme Court, the corporation is indeed a legal living intent who has the right to free speech, namely the ability to support one elected official over another. Compounded to these rulings and an older ruling that a corporation can be renewed infinitely, tells me that this is about as close to godhood as anything can get. Money works too.

          • Kai

            I’m not that familiar with actual D&D rules so pardon my ignorance. I’m also thinking of mainland Chinese people as opposed to Chinese people in the States. I totally get that constitution refers to health and toughness and I’d probably lean towards a lower constitution score for them as well, but argue for some sort of poison resistance or something to reflect the common Chinese netizen joke about how much poison and toxic shit they ingest (for example, that if you cut open a dead Chinese person, you’ll find the periodic table).

            Hah, yeah, I know the criticisms of the legal status of corporations in US law. Your argument for the “godhood” of “corporations” is pretty funny. I just think of Chinese people worshiping money more than companies. Cheers.

  • Dr Sun

    sweet heart they didn’t want you there or even asked you to come rescue them in the first place, you invaded.
    And yes you ran off tail between your legs, well spanked and humiliated.
    Now we are all watching the fruits of your liberation as Jihadists overrun country after in the middle East and Africa.

    Job well done USA World Police

  • David

    interesting. Whatever the real pronunciation, I suppose it goes down to common usage now.

  • Dr Sun

    I bet the thousands of wounded ex UN soldiers and the families of the thousands of dead Americans service men/ women do, honey.

    • Helen Malloy

      Well.. where are they?

  • Rafasa Arandas

    Most Taiwanese people are actually much more pro-China and anti-Japan / USA than some people realize…

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