Two days ago, there was a fire on the #9 bus in Chengdu. There were many people who died because they could not get out. Some of the pictures and videos below are graphic.
EastSouthWestNorth has a lot of information already here, here, and here.
A video of people breaking the glass windows on the bus to help rescue the people inside:
A video of the bus and victims after the fire was extinguished:
From Mop:
Chengdu Public Bus Spontaneous Combustion, 10-second Rescue Video!
There was someone who filmed a precious 10 second video of people being rescued for yesterday’s (5 June) Chengdu public bus fire. However, within this video, netizens discovered an object similar to a window-smashing hammer right next to the person shooting the video.
As a result, many netizens commented that though this video is very precious, they criticize the person shooting the video for not taking that hammer and being more useful going to help save people…
Two survivors:
Comments from Mop:
妈妈让我擦她是爱我:
Seeing this news and these photographs I cried.
A moment of silence. I hope the dead can rest in peace and the injured can continue living.
Public buses having severely overloading and quality problems has already become a common problem.
I often see public buses emitting black smoke, the entire vehicle shaking non-stop. Some buses seem to have been used for over 10 years.I hope this can attract national attention. The key point is the administration of buses these days. Just think if there were more buses during rush hour, if there were more fire prevention devices on the buses, if overloading was strictly prohibited, if better buses were purchased, then this kind of thing could be avoided. At the very least, there would be fewer dead.
杨过，没我好:
It is always like this. If something does not happen, then no one will pay attention to it. There are so too many things that need to be done. If you work in a job providing service, you are not just earning money for yourself, you are also responsible for the people’s interests and even their lives.
Those looking for jobs should think about this. If you do not have the mentality to do your job properly, then do not do these kind of jobs, lest you regret it after something [bad] happens!
我日复一日淫:
Fuck!! Something like this . Were there casualties? How come I cannot see any ambulance personnel? So many people just rubbernecking.
巴鸡大头没:
Why can’t every day have something that makes everyone happy? :’(
土狗要复仇:
Airplanes are crashing, buses are exploding, even taking a nap at home meets 512 [Sichuan Earthquake]. If this continues on, I am going to go crazy~~~
深深的波动:
How did it spontaneously combust?
Who would dare to ride [the public bus] again?How come 120 [medical rescue] did not arrive? So many onlookers.
That poor girl lying on the street, and there were even two B guys around taking photos with their mobile phones. Fuck your entire families, what are you taking pictures of! Imagine if it were you lying there and there were a lot of people around taking pictures of you, how would you feel? Fuck.
风雨一身轻:
I better bring a hammer with me when I ride the public bus in the future, so I can be prepared to break a window at any time.
我们都是自动的:
MLGB~
Why are the injured just lying on the side~
Where are the ambulances?
Why did not a single person cover up this naked girl with some clothes~
紫禁城℡亮亮:
China’s go-vern-ment will not provide detailed reports of these kind of things!
曲折幽幽:
Fuck, I do not even know what to say. 25 people’s lives, my god, burned alive. What the hell was the Chengdu’s public bus driver doing? I have never seen anything like this before. These are all TMD imbeciles, the country has raised a bunch of imbeciles…
Comments from Tianya:
言之无罪:
The ordinary people’s lives are not worth anything. Inner-city traffic is indeed very disorderly, too much overloading [too many people on buses], and this is not the first time a public bus has spontaneously combusted.
XqsMe:
If people do not crowd onto public buses, it could be noon and there will still be people waiting for buses to go to work!
lleezix:
The Airbus A330 can seat over 200 people. Chengdu’s public buses with less than 20 square feet? 100 people!
吾言吾歌:
Could it be a terrorist attack? CCAV never reports the truth.
Just seeing these has given me an obsessive-compulsive disorder. Anytime an accident happens, I think it is a terrorist attack.
小名是兔子:
Everyone says Chengdu people need to prepare three things whenever they go out: beer bottle, thermometer, and metal hammer. The beer bottle is for earthquakes, the thermometer is for flu. The metal hammer is for when the public bus door does not open and used to escape. Sigh, Chengdu once again becomes famous. Is human life worth so little?
国军正规部队:
Those people who steal the life-saving hammers should be condemned, and at the same time strongly request that the leaders of relevant departments step down, and take legal liability. Drag a few out to be scapegoats , this is the consistent characteristic of the ZGZF, and use them to quiet down this storm!
30071153:
Beginning from when I received a call from a friend in the morning I have been paying attention to this incident. The figures I see now, 25 dead, 76 injured, means this vehicle had over 100 people in it? Is that correct?
Some reports say only 7-10 people escaped, which is to say that when the fire started there were still 90 people inside the car, but seeing the burned vehicle, it is very difficult to believe that there are still people alive after that fire. The pictures I saw are those too super terrifying photos. Can an official please come out to answer this? Very confused, does anyone else feel the same, or am I the only person who does not understand? Thanks!
I hope the injured can recover quickly! May the dead rest in peace!
yyjj987:
Such a small vehicle actually having over 100 people, just trying to move inside would be difficult, so trying to escape would be even more difficult than difficult.~
Since the government promotes using public transportation, they should at least increase the frequency of buses during rush hour~~almost much every day the driver keeps letting passengers on the bus even when it is obvious that they cannot get on~ but if there were more buses then a lot of problems would be solved~~~
女人不抽雪茄:
Our apathy is becoming used to an accident happening before we change things! Our tragedy is having an accident happen, and still turning a blind eye to it!
snowea2004:
Life is innocently lost like this, but I wish this can be exchanged for a chance to reform, and use these blood and tears as a lesson so that problems like this will no longer happen. May the deceased rest in peace!
UPDATE: A news report on Sohu and NetEase says a man intentionally spilled/knocked over something that others say had a flammable smell before the fire.
Related Posts:
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- Only days after a spontaneous fire on a public bus in Chengdu that burned many alive, another Chinese bus in Shenzhen also suddenly bursts into flames. Pictures » 57 comments
- Chinese netizens are furious over news reports of a woman in Chengdu, China who set herself on fire to protest the government evicting and demolishing her home. » 43 comments
- 2008 September 12, several Northeastern Chinese men caught on video hitting & kicking a woman bus driver in Wuhan, where another bus beating happened in 2006. » 57 comments
- Chinese netizens are stunned by a beautiful young post-90s generation girl working as a lowly ticket seller on a public bus in Shanghai. Most are older aunties. » 71 comments
Chengdu Bus #8 False Alarm Amuses Netizens 
Shenzhen Bus Bursts Into Flames Days After Chengdu Fire 
Woman Sets Self On Fire To Protest Demolition Of Home 
Wuhan Female Bus Driver Violently Beaten By Passengers 
Young Post-90s Pretty Girl Sells Bus Tickets In Shanghai 
woo first!
RIP to the dead, and glad I switched to bike. Amongst other things, we need a thorough inspection of all public transportation vehicles across the country, especially those used during peak hours.
Also I suspect this was a terrorist attack, natural ignition could not have spread so quickly.
This video is horrifying. I’m speechless. My thoughts are with these people.
Really a terrible tragedy.
I think it’s about time that the Chinese people realize that there’s been terrorism in their country for the last 2-3 years.
The government can try to cover it up as much as they want, the truth will surface one day. All it will take is one massive incident to happen in a big city such as Shanghai or Beijing.
Do you think you could warn people before (re)posting gruesome images like that?
I agree, perhaps a warning at the top of the page or summery that graphic images are part of the report.
I am horrified to see those victims just laying on the ground like that, and yet there are clearly lots of fire service crew around, where are the ambulances?
I clicked through the other links but couldn’t find what was the cause of the fire, does anyone know what the cause was?
Did find this interesting though from the eye witness account:
Q. Did the bus driver get out?
A. He got out and got into a small vehicle and left. I did not see him helping to put the fire out.
compeltely agree. i understand you are trying to inform about current issues in china, but this is not rotten.com
Lying on the ground is best until the ambulance arrives. Touching a burn victim can get them infected as their skin is burned off.
That’s some downright terrifying stuff, my heart goes out to everyone that’s been affected by this. I wish so many people didn’t just gawk & take photos, while I realize they couldn’t have done a ton to help, they shouldn’t have just rubbernecked.
Also, where are the emergency services?
There are few if any real emergencies services in China. There is no public EMS in most places and hospitals usually only have private ambulance services for not so immediate emergencies. In China, if there is an accident, you are really just expected to get yourself to the hospital. Few passersby help because of lack of knowledge and fear of any blame or responsibility being laid on them.
>Also, where are the emergency services?
Did you even look at the photos?
Ah, reading what I said over again I see that I accidentally used “emergency services” when what I should have said was something along the lines of medical services for the victims. Thank you for noticing the error on my part! :)
Took the bus to work today. The driver still insisted that even though the bus was full to the brim people should move back and make room. People never learn I guess. Didn’t see any hammers either. I remember the 2 Kunming busbombs last year. Damn lucky a real fire didn’t break out in either of them or there would have been a high amount of casualties too.
Next time the driver wants more people on the bus than is safe I wanna shout “Remember than bus in Chengdu mate?” but I am sure the Chinese people wil scold me for not being “patriotic” again not getting what it is all about.
“Also, where are the emergency services?”
They are too busy fucking xiao jie at the local KTV spot to bother with such a mundane event.
As Chinese people like to say when asked about the problems of China: We have too many people, who cares if a couple of them die?
Burn China Burn!
Wow… let’s all stand around and take pictures while all the people are burning to death…
Are you trolling or did you not see the video of people helping others off the bus….
1: do never fart in the bus
2: do never bunr cigaretes in the bus
3: say “fuck off” to your boss when you took later the bus
4: look how old the bus is before stping in
5: dont play with fire in the bus.
6: be sure your mobile will not explode in the bus.
7: ..
7: ..
Don’t do business in China or be Chinese.
dude, Chengdu is Sichuan.
The two men beside the girl are not taking pictures…
They are probably calling the girl’s family or friends, while the girl is giving them the telephone numbers.
It’s better to leave the burn uncovered. You don’t want to get the wound infected.
burned people have their skin melted away. the flesh and nervs are open. aside that people can die/get heart atack because of shok when someone touch this wound. therefor it is dangerous to cover the wound even if it will not be infected until the new skin is formed. aside that the new skin will take the structure of the material wich was used to cover..
That second video with the glass breaking hammer. We have those in the buses here aswell but they are alway chained onto the bus to prevent theft so it wasn’t like he could just grab it and run out.
Yeah, stuff like this really breaks my heart see. Especially, when the driver ran away like that. That will haunt him for the rest of his life. I still dont believe that a poorly built bus just blew up like that. There must be another reason.
If it’s of any comfort to you, one of the news articles linked to in this topic states:
“The bus driver escaped the fire and took part in the rescue,” said a vendor near the bus station.
Was that before or after the incident was “harmonized” by the state news agency?
Others have noted eyewitnesses (as mentioned above as well) saying the bus driver got out and into a small car and drove away. He likely knew, no matter what the cause, he would be deemed responsible and sent to hard labour camp for a decade or given death sentence (roughly same, just labour camp takes longer). Fleeing is probably the better option, given guilt or innocence is irrelevant in China after the police get hold of you!!
Taking part in the rescue in the form of pressing the OPEN DOOR button before jumping out the window? What a hero.
knowing Chinese drivers he was properly the first off the bus. Most buses in China never get inspected and are often filled with danger. The companies never repair fuel leaks.I hope that the bus company directors get the China death penalty for their lack of providing safe buses.
It is probably useful to report this event and stress the bad behaviour of some people taking photos instead of helping. However, by publishing those horrible photos, the ChinaSMACK website does not respect any privacy and proves to be the same as the vultures making benefits of other people distress and pain. Please report this event in a smart way and do not encourage people to behave like this, thinking about the nice photos they will pucblish on Internet and look people die with no shame.
Fauna,
Please ignore comments like this. I don’t want to see “smart” reporting; I want to see what is actually posted in the forums. This site is not vulture-ish or (as others have claimed) smuttish, it’s just real. Thank you for refraining from giving us the watered down version of the story!
Agreed Shoeshine,
I am not here to see the news, I am here to see how Chinese people are reacting to the news and what is being posted in Chinese forums.
It should also be added that these are the same videos that are broadcast on local and national Chinese television. The Chinese have less of an aversion to real blood going out on the public boobtube than most westerners do.
I think Christian’s heart in the right place but may just be new to this website. chinaSMACK goes out of its way to translate and convey what Chinese netizens are seeing from any particular topic/issue as honestly as possible. As a result, they don’t actively or intentionally censor the news. Therefore, it can be rather “in your face” much of the time. I think a lot of the older visitors of this website know this, but a lot of the newer visitors or those who randomly find their way here might not, so it is understandable that they might not understand the approach that is taken. Just try to understand that there’s a method to the madness behind this website though it’ll offend some people’s sensibilities just as it proves valuable or interesting to others’.
Fucking sick to see those fucking rubbernecks doing nothing but watching people dying !! That’s the prime reason why we tibetan people hate chinese! Fuck most of the chinese people like fucking coldblood animals!!!!!!!!!
The wounded girl lays on the ground while onlookers continue watching the burning bus. They only notice her as she is almost run over by a motorcycle.
This country is too busy killing dogs and cats , they don’t have time to help people, to make the country a better place, is it so shocking to see everyone just stad there and watching while people on the bus are getting burned? No, its more than normal in China!
Did you guys read or watch the same videos I did? I happened to notice quite a few people trying their best to help, on proportion to what can be expected from similar situations around the world. There were more than a few people who noticed smoke, chased the bus trying to stop it, who found objects to break the windows with in order to extricate people, who called 110, who pulled people out of the wreckage, etc. etc. etc. I mean, have any of you seen the footage around the WTC during 9/11? The vast majority of people in any footage were either stunned or utterly confused, and it is always a small minority that actually seems to have their wits about them to be heroes. That’s kinda the reason why the concept of “hero” exists, someone who does what the average person does not, and the average person tends to NOT know what to do or NOT react quick/calmly enough in situations like these. It is amazing how some of you will see only what you want to see.
I agree with Kai on this one. Although there is an absolute plethora of evidence to suggest that mainland China has a culture of looking but not helping, there’s little of that in this clip.
Many people can quite clearly be seen running over to help.
In other cultures I think somebody would have come to the aid of the woman on the floor a bit quicker… or at least just have asked her if she is okay.
Wow, even when you agree, you had to find SOMETHING to separate yourself from the “Chinese.”
You know, a decent person would look at this news and think it is a horrible horrible human tragedy. They might be critical of the negligence or malevolence involved in causing or contributing to this tragedy. They might be proud of those individuals who risked injury and death to do what they could to help.
But, it takes a really inhuman person to look at this, mumble some acknowledgment of what they didn’t expect, and then find something, ANYTHING, to turn this entire thing into some superiority issue of differences between cultures. Empathy…
Tut… Oh Kai…
You could start a fight in an empty chat room!
I DON’T consider it ‘decent’ to think that this is a horrible tragedy, I consider it HUMAN to think that this is a horrible tragedy, and that’s why I felt it to be a given and not worth mentioning.
You either misunderstand my position on the mainland Chinese on a grandiose scale or are continuing your plight to defame my character. I don’t care which one it is, just put a sock in it.
Absolutely. She could use some comforting. But that’s hard to find in China.
While I agree that the people around the bus did generally a good job of helping for what they could have done, surely it was *hot* around the bus and scary for those who may expect explosion..I think it’s ridiculous for you to use the WTC during 9/11 as a means to create analogy between heroics. There’s more than a little difference between a jetliner crashing into a monolithic building which subsequently collapses and buries thousands, and smoke coming out of a bus.
Rick, I understand the difference you feel compelled to emphasize, but I’m sure you agree with the point I’m making: The vast majority of people in emergency situations are not heroes and more often than not, don’t do anything except be stupefied.
Rick, you should know I’m well aware of differences in scale. Do you need me to bring up other examples that substantiate my point or are you willing to accept that insofar as I’m communicating a point, your objection of “ridiculous” is splitting hairs. Remember, the point is about bystanders, not about scale. I wasn’t suggesting a bus fire in Chengdu China is comparable to the Twin Towers crashing down. I was suggesting that both cases saw the majority of people behaving similarly. There were heroes and there were bystanders. Are you really trying to pick a fight over this?
Well, I think that in most situations, people suffer from the bystander effect. In this case, I will say that some people were heroic for trying to help. This should be one of the stories where we can all agree that there ARE people in China that don’t just stand around and take pictures. For this case, I would like to ask, what would all of you pointing te finger do? I am honest. I would be stunned if a bus right next to me blew up. It would probably take me a few minutes to regain myself and push forward to help. However, I WOULD help because I have been a situation where someone needed help and I did something. But, I feel alot of people pointing fingers on here may not do the same…. Im not defending the bystanders, just making a point. I hope all the supermen on this post will do something. If that is the case, than you guys have a point.
i’m glad i found this site. it really shows what chinese are like. yikes! something is definitely wrong in china. for having a so-called 5000 year old culture the people seem just like africans or muslims.
I think this site needs a bullshit filter for ignorant comments such as richard’s. That’s the statement you come up with after watching those poor people in the video?
If you read one of the links at the top of this page it gives a witness statement of someone who was trying to stop the bus because there was thick smoke coming from it 2 km before it caught fire, some people even going as far as blocking the bus with their scooter but the bus driver just cursed at them and kept going. He also stated that the bus driver left the scene without even trying to help those poor people trapped in the bus. He is responsible for all those deaths and the also for the suffering the injured are going to go through for the rest of their lives.
I see some people trying to help break windows or do something, but I can’t believe how many people are just standing around taking video’s or just staring not even trying to help those people? What’s even worse are the people standing next to the woman who collapsed and don’t even try to help her or at least comfort her, it disgusts me.
Wow, richard… Just wow…
Richard, your comparo-meter needs recalibration.
African is a region.
Muslim is a religion.
Chinese is a nationality.
Chimate is a lifestyle choice.
Nicely put
While I like your sentiments I’d like to add, it might be argued that being Chinese is both a nationality and a religion, since they’re ‘taught’ to worship the state.
Absoultely!
nice spelling :P
I am not sure whether anyone here has noticed yet, but shanghaiist carries a short piece “Deadly Chengdu bus fire an act of arson?”, with a link to a China Daily article. Curiouser and curiouser.
Sorry, forgot the link:
http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/08/chengdu_bus_incident_an_act_of_arso.php
doubt it. I think it was likely a result of negligent maintenance.
I will be silent no longer. This kind of thing is a CHINA issue. This is about attitude, not race.
Here are the reasons.
1) Chinese maintenance and crap replacement parts.
Sounds like a cracked fuel line and the pump just keeps pushing the fuel out because the ignition switch is still on. WHich leads us to point #2…
2) Lack of education about the machine that you use. (the attitude here is “I am the driver, why should I know anything about the bus?”)
All the bus driver had to do was turn off the bus and the fuel supply would have stopped. In a city bus, everything (gastank, engine, battery etc) is beneath the passenger compartment. The people inside literally cooked as more and more fuel was added to the fire. Diesel fuel doesn’t burn that easy compared to gasoline…all it would have taken was the power to get cut off.
3) The payment system for bus drivers. In a lot of regions in China the driver is paid a percentage of fares (like a taxi driver). This means that more customers= more money. THis is why you get buses that are always ahead of schedule, serious overcrowding, buses drag racing off of the lights to reach the next stop and general lunatic behaviour from 4 and 5 ton vehicles.
This wouldn’t be such a problem if it weren’t for…
#4) Selfishness. Me, MINE, MMMMMMMMEEEE first. This driver clearly wasn’t trying to hear whatever people tried to tell him.
You could always MAKE him listen…BUT that would require backbone, balls,etc…
Issue #5) Majority of people here lack balls. Nobody will stop the man from beating his wife, lest they become involved. Nobody will help the old woman that fell down lest they are held liable for her hospital bills. IN THIS CASE, nobody on the bus could stop the driver from being a retard? a) too many people on board b) stop when other vehicles are trying to tell you that something is drastically wrong etc.
I could go on, but by now I am sure that you have realized that it is the unique blend of stupidity that lets this easily preventable accident happen in China.
Sadly, what you just posted makes a lot of sense.
Sadly, what you just posted is entirely conjecture.
The news has reported that the diesel fuel in the tank was largely untouched and not what fueled the fire. Of course, given that the “facts” reported in China’s media are too often (but not always) unreliable, we can always distrust that bit of information. However, we’re all then left with news information we don’t trust and the speculation of someone who wasn’t there and hasn’t a shred of evidence (VeerLeft).
Veer Left’s hypothesis is indeed about attitude and not race. However, it is also more about his perception of an attitude in China than any legitimate observation of evidence or facts pertinent to this case. In fact, his specious reasoning doesn’t even have the benefit of circumstantial evidence. Whatever your proclivity to agree with it in general, be careful with projecting it as factual to this case.
Nothing personal, VeerLeft, but you know you’re overstepping the bounds of rationality here.
Oh, cut the bull, will you!
About conjecture: On technical details, we all are left to speculate, what with variety of apparently conflicting accounts. That includes you. What do you actually KNOW that makes your conjectures superior to any other? Fuel tank, flammable liquids on board, whatever…
The point of Veer Left comment is really going to the root of WHY a perfectly avoidable tragedy happened. Avoidable, and all commonplace in China, too. Specious reasoning, hey? With lot of waffle following… It is you who does not offer a single word to refute VL’s hypothesis. Try again.
But before we go on about this issue, I strongly recommend that all readers peruse Lost Laowai’s post on this: “Crazy bus fire in Chengdu”
http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/warnings/crazy-bus-fire-in-chengdu/
and then go to Humanaught for “Living without trust”
http://www.thehumanaught.com/blog/china-expat-life/living-without-trust/
The latter especially addresses what Veer Left is on about. And I recommend that everyone interested reads ALL comments, to both posts.
“overstepping the bounds of rationality”, my ass!
Neddy, I’m sorry you find something disagreeable with what I pointed out. However, I believe you’re jumping ahead of yourself. What conjecture have I offered? None. I merely pointed out that what VeerLeft posted above, as the likely causes for this incident, is conjecture. I didn’t offer an explanation and state it to be what happened, so how could I think my conjecture is superior to others? You’re putting words in my mouth.
Uh, I don’t have to refute what isn’t proven to be true. Dude, I even offered links to the definition of “conjecture” and “specious” and you still get it wrong.
Look, I fully understand why VeerLeft suspects what he suspects. I’m just tempering his enthusiasm to declare his suspicious as factually applicable, relevant, and of causation to this incident absent evidence. I called his reasoning “specious” because while his conjecture is PLAUSIBLE, it is NOT proven to be true. Hell, that’s what “conjecture” means: a hypothesis unsupported by the facts. Just as you admit, none of us have the facts. However, VeerLeft is declaring an explanation with 5 reasons, and I’m simply pointing out how it is inappropriate to be so certain of his explanation as he is applying it to this specific instance. What’s wrong with that?
Having personally met Ryan, I’d wager he’d agree with me that while VeerLeft’s arguments above are reasonable criticisms about negligent attitudes exhibited by too many Chinese people in China, they are indeed overstepping the bounds of rationality when applied to or suggested as explaining the cause of the bus 9 fire. Go ahead and call up Ryan. I’m quite confident he can see what I am objecting to.
Now, for the sake of discussion, there are a few things VeerLeft suggests that I do think can be rejiggered to be more applicable to Bus 9:
Instead of what Veer Left hypothesized as a cracked fuel line, let’s go with something we CAN be more certain of: lack of maintaining and replacing safety equipment. The glass-breaking hammer on the bus was missing. It should have been noticed and replaced immediately. It wasn’t. This is negligent and very likely contributed to more unnecessary deaths.
Instead of basing the argument on an unsupported assumption that it was broken fuel line and then framing #2 as a criticism of the driver not knowing about the fuel system, we can more safely accuse the driver of not knowing how to manually override and open the bus doors when the system fails. I believe all bus doors can be manually opened. The driver, of all people, should have known how to do this.
The most applicable criticism worth salvaging from what VeerLeft said in this part is that negligent overloading of the bus. Insofar as we take the ESWN translated interview as fact, the lunatic behavior may indeed be pinned on the bus driver as contributing to his negligence.
This is a reasonable gripe, it just isn’t reasonably linked to why or how the bus caught fire in the first place. Remember, VeerLeft set out to explain why this happened and what he considers to be similar things like this having happened so often. Hence, conjecture.
This is again conjecture because VeerLeft has no idea nor evidence as to whether or not the people on the bus noticed people trying to stop the bus or whether or not they then actually tried to get the bus driver to stop. He’s assuming that they wanted the driver to stop but didn’t have the balls to enforce their will. He’s painting a picture of what happened on the bus using his preconceptions instead of any direct evidence. This is definitely conjecture.
I’m not begrudging VeerLeft of his suspicions. I’m begrudging him of presenting his suspicions as anything other than conjecture. Hell, I happen to agree with a lot of his complaints and generalizations about Chinese attitudes, but I’m not the one remotely using them in building a hypothetical explanation unsupported by the information we have available of what happened with Bus 9. As I said before, his conjecture about the fuel lines is devoid of evidence and contrary to official reports. Anything built upon that assumption is likewise suspect. The rest of his “reasons” are also by definition conjecture.
Now, I could be mistaken, but I’m actually going to go out on a limb here and say I think VeerLeft is actually intelligent and honest enough to acknowledge that what he wrote is indeed “conjecture.” Admitting so does not detract from his general criticisms of Chinese negligent attitudes.
As I said:
So, please calm down and carefully read what I’m saying before you get incredulous. If you want to argue with me, be sure you know what I’m saying and be sure you have something that actually disproves what I’m saying. Until then, VeerLeft’s hypothesis of what happened is, as I said, conjecture.
There was actually only one thing I found disagreeable: The twaddle you tried to serve in a guise of a reasoned discourse:
You disagreed with a comment, dished out a couple of dictionary links, and declared The Truth According to Kai. And since you also asserted, all by yourself, that the dissed comment was a conjecture, you then didn’t “have to refute what isn’t proven to be true”. How convenient, and let’s take your word for it, right?
Now consider: If you had given your real objections up front, instead of having them dragged out of you, this unnecessary interlude would never have happened. As it is, you magnanimously shared your beef with us, eventually, and had it answered. From what I have read below, there is hardly a shred of the alleged conjecture left intact. And if you can’t, or won’t, see that, don’t tell me; it’s your rationality you may wish to ponder, dude, instead of patronising others left, right and centre.
Neddy,
Can you try rephrasing that? I’m not sure I understand. How is calling something for what it is “the truth according to Kai”? What is the truth according to you? That it is NOT conjecture?
I explained and proved what I asserted, that it is conjecture. What you were demanding was that I refute VeerLeft’s hypothesis of what happened. I don’t need to refute it because there’s no reason to do so. There’s no reason to do so because there is no evidence. If there was evidence that could lend support to his conjecture, and I disagree with his interpretation of that evidence, then yes, I would have to refute it with contrary argumentation. However, that isn’t the case. If you disagree with me calling VeerLeft’s hypothesis “conjecture”, you need to explain why it is wrong to say it is “conjecture.”
The dictionary links were for those who may not understand what “conjecture” means since it is not exactly an every-day word. Likewise with “specious.”
Uh, what were my “real objections?” My real objection WAS stated up front, that what VeerLeft was proposing as explanatory was conjecture. The interlude you indulged in was because you did not understand what “conjecture” was and needed me to spell it out for you. Had you checked the dictionary and rubbed two brain cells together, you wouldn’t have had to waste my time.
What beef? That conjecture is conjecture? I think you’re reading too much into my objection.
I haven’t read below yet, but I’m sure I will. You can see my responses there though I’m pretty certain my characterization of what VeerLeft said above as “conjecture” still stands. I’m also pretty certain you do not understand the meaning of “conjecture” even to this point.
Uh huh. I’ve noticed that “patronising” and “condescending” gets thrown around a lot by people who are likewise “patronising” and “condescending”, just to different targets and for different reasons. You’ll excuse me if I don’t take such hypocritical insults too seriously.
Seriously guys, just post up your education stats and lets end this jibberish debate…
Here’s a dictionary link for you, Kai:
http://www.dictionary.com/patronising bastard
LoL, bite me, Asis. If you have a worthwhile argument to make, make it. Don’t continue to waste our time trying to insult me. It didn’t work before, and it won’t work again. If someone makes a good persuasive point, I’ve always been man enough to acknowledge it. You, not so much.
What does ‘acknowledge’ mean?
Ask bert, pug, Fat American, or any of the other people who actually try to engage in reasoned discourse, whom I’ve had fruitful and respectful discussions with. Expand your field of vision beyond the fruits of your own labors.
Sorry, I forgot. I’ve always been amused with the hypocrisy inherent in someone who is so repeatedly condescending towards the Chinese (that would be, you) being annoyed with other people being condescending towards that condescension. Asis, the vast majority of your arguments with and attacks against me are premised upon you not liking the fact that I call out people for being offensively and illegitimately condescending towards the Chinese. As I said before, you would love nothing more than to be indulged in your condescension towards the Chinese without rebuke or censure. Not only is that hypocritical, that’s just plain fucked up.
who elected you to be the watchdog of the chinese people?
The same people who elected you to be my watchdog.
The tragic thing is that the fire really took off after the bystanders broke all the windows, thereby letting all that oxygen in.
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OK. Kai, I am offering a hypothesis, not evidence.
However, some of what I say is NOT up for debate (unless you are a person who worked in the automotive field in China, as I have at both the repair/modification level and the manufacturing level).
I am not being condescending. I am well aware of how vehicles catch fire. There are a limited number of ways that this can happen. Trust me, the seats didn’t just burn everyone from an errant cigarette or a lighter etc. The only source of combustible that could do that is the FUEL TANK. (the authorities have no way of knowing how much fuel is in the tank before and after. Your point about the tank being intact is irrelevant… the fuel is PUMPED out!!!) Ignorance of the system is the drivers problem… (yes, even you could be a bus driver here).
I would like to blame the bus driver, but not about the doors. Overcrowding , yes…but the FOLDING doors can’t open once the people are mashed up against them in a panic.
The payment system is also NOT conjecture. This is the way that it worked when I was in Sichuan, Hainan and apparently in small towns all over zhejiang and many others provinces.
I expect that the official story will be along the lines of a cigarette lighter exploded when someones cellphone rang, but those with ANY knowledge of CHINA and the AUTOMOBILE will know better.
Thank you.
VeerLeft,
Neddy’s objection to me was that I reminded people that your post was conjecture insofar as it is applied as explanatory for what happened on Bus 9. As you have agreed, you are offering a hypothesis without evidence. This is conjecture.
Now, I realize the “Sadly what you posted…” line might be interpreted as confrontational. I hope you’ll recognize that I was merely echoing The John above for effect. You and I have been on chinaSMACK long enough together to have a good feel for each other. Had The John’s comment not existed, I certainly would not have used those same words. I would’ve simply said, “That’s all conjecture.” The John’s comment indicated that some people might take your conjecture as fact. I just wanted to clarify that it is not.
No one nor any news reports or investigations are saying that the seats burned everyone from an errant cigarette or lighter. The news reports are reporting that passengers smelled a flammable liquid spilled on the bus prior to the fire. Have you seen these reports? I believe links are provided above and they have been widely reported in the media and on other English China blogs (example: Shanghaiist).
You’re suggesting that the fuel tank fueled the fire. This is contrary to media reports you should have seen. Example: Xinhua via CDT:
It is conjecture to say the only source of combustible is the fuel tank. It is debatable when you insist on it contrary to information and evidence presented elsewhere.
Where did I disagree with you on this? Please don’t misrepresent my position.
So we agree on overcrowding and we agree that the driver should’ve done more. Where is our disagreement here?
Read my comment carefully. My objection was with your conjecture insofar as it is applied as explanatory for the Bus 9 fire. I fully agree that so long as the payment system encourages negligent attitudes toward operating procedures, it is a contributory factor. I also quite clearly stated that points like these certainly support your argument about negligent Chinese attitudes, but I’m cautioning against directly linking it to the cause of the Bus 9 fire absent evidence.
No one is begrudging you of distrusting official reports (I even stated this myself) and postulating a conspiracy theory, so long as you acknowledge that it is conjecture. You’ve acknowledged it. All is good in the universe.
Neddy: How could there not be a shred of conjecture left when VeerLeft himself acknowledges his statements as a hypothesis without evidence? That’s the very definition of conjecture. Go look it up before responding.
Just my 2 cents. Sorry, Kai. I wasn’t saying he was 100% right. Especially, the over generalizations of calling people selfish. However, I did think that there was a possibility of neglect on the drivers parts. Especially, because he ran away. (according to eye witnesses). I didn’t take any offence from either of you.
Also, the conjecture of the fuel tank does make sense. That doesn’t that it is right.
Yes, I agree it is plausible. I was just surprised he’d run with it when it was in contradiction to the news reports I thought he should’ve already saw (referenced above). Whatever my disagreements with VeerLeft (he’s one of the angsty ones here), he’s generally not one of those here who run around just spouting off nonsense.
Word, The John, I wasn’t trying to offend you either. I definitely think the driver was at least negligent, and if the interview on ESWN is to be believed, a massive jackass. Either way, I think he failed to do what a driver of a bus should’ve done in such a situation.
Well, Kai, It just seems you always trying to find the reasons why such thing happen to china, the excuse for people doing things wrong here. Sometimes, maybe we can just admit things are fucked up here and wish those tragedies never happened and most of all, we can’t always just wait for heroes to show up to save, but i guess that’s what the crowds are waiting for there…
Not Found, where in this thread am I “trying to find the reasons” why this happened? I think VeerLeft was doing that, not me. Where have I tried to excuse people for doing things wrong here? Please cite.
I’ve repeatedly acknowledged and even proposed that things are fucked up here. I also wish these tragedies never happen and I also agree that we can’t always just wait for heroes to show up.
You’ve either misunderstood my position or you’re deliberately misrepresenting it. That sucks. Please do not make false accusations of me. If you want to accuse me of something, be sure you can prove it.
I have to side with Kai on this one. He is one of the more reasonable minded on here. Sometimes a bit strong… But, I like that. I don’t see Kai as a blind chinese supporter loyalist. But, he does provide food for thought. More people on here need to look at both sides of the coin.
Dude, as much as I hate the monkeys sometimes, that was hard to stomach, and really sad.
Hey, I am not fighting with Kai on this at all, just stating the unique combination of problems that could lead to this kind of ridiculous occurence. If my tone seemed a bit harsh it is because I am pissed at seeing this kind of thing.
BTW, I’ll bet that they smelled flammable liquid on the bus. It was RIGHT BENEATH THEM! 107 liters… who knows how many there were prior to the wires/fuses finally melting so that the engine/pumps stopped? This statistic mean NOTHING. if they can still find the gas line, I’m sure that the blaze will have been most intense there, even if it started further away (for instance where some fuel hit a hot pipe, frayed wires etc. etc.
One of the most horrifying and upsetting things I’ve ever seen. I had to stop the video.
Those who tried to help passengers escape are commendable.
If people don’t ask questions about what happened then measures can’t be taken to help prevent the same thing happening in the future.
Cant someone from outside break the windows? What’s wrong with the people? They just stood there watched it happen and took a bunch pics with their cell phones? What’s going on with this country?
This is from ESWN :
China says deadly bus fire was deliberately set July 3, 2009.
A Chinese bus fire that killed 27 people and injured dozens last month was deliberately set by a man who committed suicide, state media said Friday. The air-conditioned bus caught fire during the morning rush hour in the southwestern city of Chengdu and was destroyed within minutes. Besides those killed, more than 70 people were injured, some seriously.
Police say a 62-year-old unemployed man set the fire after carrying a bucket of gasoline onto the bus, the state-run China Daily reported. The newspaper said the man, Zhang Yunliang, was burned to death at the rear of the bus. The official Xinhua News Agency said Zhang intended to kill himself. “Judging from the way the body lied on the floor and the direction it faced, Zhang did not intend to escape after setting the fire,” it said. The China Daily said Zhang had been threatening to commit suicide because he was dependent on his daughter for financial support. It did not say why he wanted to do it in a public place.
Xinhua reported at the time of the June 5 fire that the death toll was worsened by overcrowding aboard the bus and the lack of functioning safety exits. Most of the bus windows were sealed and had to be broken by people outside.
(Cat898) Suspicious points about the “arson” on the Chengdu bus
1. The most powerful evidence is the final letter to the family. Why not publish it for everybody to see? What is there to hide? The letter had been received on June 9. Why was nothing said about it until now?
2. Even if suicidal tendencies were exhibited in the letter and telephone call to the family, it does not explain why he chose this particular method of suicide. All sorts of pessimistic people think about committing suicide every day, but how many really actually do it? Do they all have to be reported to the police?
3. Is the retrieval of the cigarette lighter evidence? Eight out of the ten men smoke cigarettes and carry lighters. What kind of evidence is this?
4. Why is there no clear explanation about how come the door on the bus did not open? “What is the causal relationship between “the suspect carried gasoline onto the bus” and “the door on the bus did not open”?
5. Why didn’t the gasoline burst into flames as soon as it was lit? Why was there only smoke for a certain period of time first? Is there such a kind of strange gasoline in the world?
6. If he poured the gasoline on the floor first before he set it on fire, then everybody in the car should detect a strong smell of gasoline and ask for the bus to stop. How come none of the survivors have said so?
The dead person cannot reply. By blaming a dead person, the bus company can avoid the huge medical bills incurred by the injured passengers. This is the best answer for the bus company, and the officials can also avoid being held accountable for inadequate supervision.