In Wuhan, some black-hearted factory bosses use children as labor to squeeze extreme profits; some of these children toiling day and night for them, shedding countless tears of suffering and hardship.
Carrying the concerns of city residents, “Wang Haofeng Focus” [an independent reporter/photographer] from late September until early October, directed investigations across the Wuhan region focusing on the numerous innocent-faced workers laboring long hours in factories (they are distributed across clothing factories/printing factories/textile factories/zipper factories/etc). In order to speed up production, black-hearted bosses use them like ‘robots’, letting them rest only 6 hours per day, some only get off work at 4 in the morning; Because of serious lack of sleep, some had their fingers “bitten” by machines during production; those who made mistakes during production, are blamed and scolded by the boss; It’s 2 am in the morning, only to find these tired and beaten kids on the side of the road buying “shaobing” [a Chinese sesame bread] for a late-night snack.
A child toiling in a clothing factory said he was born in March 1995. The foreman said he just turned 15.
Asked if the kid made close to a thousand kuai a month, the foreman replied: “Not that much, just a bit”.
At a factory that makes mops, a child is ceaselessly putting rubber covering on the mop stick, he said he has been employed for 1 year already, came from Xishui in Hubei province, and has just turned 15 this year; every day, he has to cover over a thousand mop sticks. Annual salary is 5000 yuan.
Surrounding residents passionately decried, this is clearly a threat to one’s life! There are even 12 and 13 year old among them, and who can save them? Every time there is an inspection, someone will warn the factory beforehand. After the inspection/noise is over, the problem immediately returns.
Everybody knows the country severely cracks down on the illegal act of employing of children for labor. Yet in only a few days, “Wang Haofeng Focus” already uncovered so many working “baby faces.” How many of these child labors are in the Wuhan region is still an unknown number. The hope remains within the related agencies to seriously face the party/the people/the nation in a responsible manner in the future, by investigating thoroughly, to return the kids the happiness of childhood. Return to society a sense of fairness and justice.
"Working long hours in the factory, sometimes workers will hurt their fingers on the machinery."
Late in the night he is still hard at work. This is a printing factory. People in the factory revealed that he is 15, already been working for a year."
"'Mechanic' is an innocent and tender face."
"This little 'technician' is diagnosing a problem with the machine."
"This 15 year old was only recruited recently. His is still lacking skill, and is often scolded by the boss."
"Everyday he puts covers on over a thousand mop sticks. Annual salary is 5000 yuan. Born November 1993. He already been working for a year."
Comments on NetEase:
Everywhere is the same
not just Wuhan
How can it be like this? What have the Ministry of Labor been doing, why are they not taking care of it?
Sorrow, the whole society’s sorrow! Children are the hope of the future, yet they are wasting their youth there [in the factory]! Where the hell did the regulatory departments go?
These bosses, are they still fucking human?
I can’t finish reading this, I want to kill someone!
It is a little better these days. Many years ago, it was even younger, they would come when they were only 11 and 12-years-old .
The children’s parents also have responsibility. Having kids, and not raising them?!!
These kids are only around 10 years old, and already they let them go out to make money. These kind of parents must face the guilt in their conscience.
Only by learning a trade at a young age will they be competitive in the future. I support, I support.
We live in a shameless country.
So pitiful
What the fuck do you guys know. If they don’t work, then do you want then to go on the street and rob? Go steal and rob? They don’t want to go to school, that their own choice, what can you do? Don’t tell me it is the factory that forced them there? Break their legs if they run??? They are on the streets eating a late-night snack thank you very much, open your eyes, and use your brains.
They should be studying in school, isn’t tuition free now? Dammit, “ding” this up, send those bastards [factory bosses] to prison for a couple of years.
Factory bosses are black, the Ministry of Labor is even blacker.
This society still have lots of impoverished places, no choice but to go earn money at a young age. With regards to those black factories who can help regulate them! How long will these factories still exist in society!
Wuhan again! This kind of bosses should be shot on sight!
This is China. If these type of phenomenon did not exist, then it wouldn’t be China anymore.
The author wants relevant departments to inspect, and save the kids. But didn’t say whether regulation is enough. May I ask, after the kids are saved what will they do? They work because of one thing - poverty, after they leave where will they go? No outlet, no escape, they can only look for another place that hires children for labor, and if no one hires child labor, then what will they do? I thought for a while, probably only three options: 1. Repatriation; 2. Wandering around; 3. Starve to death. (First I want to say, I’m not a factory boss or worker) Please think of a solution to solve the fundamental problem, if they have other options, I reckon no family would let their kids leave home and suffer.
It is not only in Wuhan, my hometown of Hunan, my work place in Shenzhen, everywhere there is child labors, and still no one does anything about it.
China’s situation is that the poor are getting poorer, and the rich getting richer
What will regulation do? Unless there are no more poor people in China
Kids family is poor, if you regulate then there will be no place to work
Go home and go to school? There are still a lot of poor people in today’s China.
I think this is good. If these young kids don’t have work, they can only wander in society, to steal and to rob, kill and commit crimes. This would only be a life of regret. Earning some money can at least give them some hope, can help support the family, and they won’t be drifting on the streets, its not a bad thing. I came from the countrysides and am a migrant worker. All you white collars live a full life, don’t understand the sufferings of the poor. If you guys have the wherewithal/ability/heart, then go open a factory to give these kids better jobs. Too bad you guys don’t have that wherewithal/ability/heart, and only know how to complain here, the eventual outcome is these factories being closed down, these kids drift on the streets, and don’t have to work 15 hours a day, then you are content. They are now hungry, have no face to return home to their families, and you guys are now happy. They walk down the path of crime, then you’ll start blaming. These things are all the doing of you bored people, everyday talk about human rights, but actually forcing these kids into a dead end. Wake up people, do something practical.
"2 in the morning, they leave the factory and have a late-night snack at a small roadside booth. Fellow co-workers introduce the middle kid as 14-years-old."
See also:
- Peasant Girl: My life is Miserable Because I Am Poor
- Volunteers Visit Homes of Poor Migrant Worker Children
- Sister Says Family Poor, Cannot Find Boyfriend, Leaves
China supposed to be workers heaven, with “dictate of proletariat”. This is far away from communist ideals
@Maveric
Do you actually believe China’s economy is still a communist one? If so, you’re far mistaken. It’s communist politically - but for decades, has been shifting hard towards capitalism economically…not sure if you’re just poking or actually believe what you said :)
that´s weird,I´ve though being charged with child rape would led to a bullet in your head…
“We live in a shameless country.”
This poster said it right.
What do you expect? China is 150 years behind the curve. New York had child labor and swill milk scandal back in 1858; China is simply going through the same period of transition into a market economy. It took the USA until 1938 to officially outlaw child labor, don’t expect China to do any better.
China’s getting rid of everything that was good about the communist system and keeping all the bad.
@Bob: China *does have child labor laws*.
The kids in the article seem to be 14-15 years old when they start working. In Canada/US it’s not far off - while much of child labor laws allow for state/sometimes even city level restrictions to limit types and hours of work for certain age groups, it’s not a significant difference from Chinese labor laws. The problem here is that the information is not sufficient to determine whether laws are even being broken - although I’d some some are because they seem to want to be tipped off when inspections occur - not that I know specifics on the child labor laws in China either but in Canada a kid can work in some basic functionality when he’s ~13 in many parts of the country if he has parental consent. I think it’s unfair and incorrect to say the laws are ‘150 years behind the curve’, in fact, the economic situation of much of the countryside is largely responsible as well as the enforcement of many laws.
Watching a 15 year old kid work in a crappy environment only breaks my heart to the extent that much of the world is in poverty and can’t focus on education, the fact it happens here in China is no different than the fact it happens in many parts of the world, even in much worse situations than described above, and this is nothing new nor newsworthy in my opinion. My opinion might be jaded through traveling around Africa and other parts of Asia, mind you. Rather than just watch and fake compassion from my living room as many above posters, I often donate (especially whenever I travel) to organizations like http://www.emiratesfoundation.com who really focus their distributed donation and volunteer efforts on improving the lives of children in various countries, often places that have been struck by disease or natural hardship.
There’s a lot of poverty and disgusting abuse of children in China, but having been way out…way out in the countryside, I think it’s safe to say (with exceptions) it’s not as bad as it is in many parts of the world.
EXECUTE THE BOSS!!! EVIL DOG!!
this is nothing to do with government, it is the fking boss!!! execute him
I think it is okay for a child to ‘work’ but the conditions must be safe and reasonable. Another problem in many families is that they totally coddle the child and then when they grow up they are useless and spoiled. It seems in the big cities in China the ‘upper’ class (whatever that means) are raising coddled children, whereas in the countryside it is the opposite. There must be some balance. I worked for my father’s company after classes in middle school sometimes. I hated it and it wasn’t completely safe but I am better for it (I am not from China). Would a father in China, who owns his own company, actually make his child perform some work just to instill some character in the child? Children aren’t going to break but we must make sure they have decent conditions, but that should apply to all workers young or old. The children should be taught and protected by the boss, not taken advantage of.
Thank you, ChinaSmack, for being a light, for revealing these vile diseases. Of course, there are many journalists in China who know about these things. But they choose to honor the lives of the corrupt bosses, private and public, rather than the lives of their victims. Those cowardly journalists care most about their own pockets. But their days are numbered. ChinaSmack is the future of China’s journalists. I proudly tell my friends about this website.
To the ignoramous who says that China is just 150 years behind the US, so every evil that the US did China has the freedom to do - you’re disgusting! By such perverse logic the world is completely hopeless: There will always be an excuse to steal, kill, and destroy. We know who your father is.
Different families has different troubles.SO some children has to work to
support themselves or thier family.The only true method to change this
situation is that the goverment faces this problem and truely sloves it.Because it happens all over our country.But it maybe impossible in the coming years.
I hear voices of reason here and I hear calls for fast execution of the bosses. Poverty is a economic situations that generates child labor, child prostitution through out the under developed world. Although China is no longer so desperately poor like Pakistan, Phillipines, Cambodia, so it is now a matter of enforcement of what are already in the books. It takes power and authority and clean governance to be effective. Will CCP have the will to sweep away this worst form of exploitation and slavery?
A 15 year old in the U.S. will be allowed to work in McDonalds and KFC for a certain number of hours a week provided their grades are acceptable. Employers have to receive a permision from parents and school before they can legally employ teenagers to work. Then teenagers under 15 are not allowed to be near or use hazardous materials such as stoves, sharp objects as knives and machines. Children under 12 are strictly prohibited from working. The main concerns in this situation as reported by Chinasmacks are work safety- use of machinery and unsafe work environment, hours of work and time of the day, type of work and age of the workers. From the video, it appears violations of labor laws have been committed. Furthermore, these jobs are dead end jobs, with no skills offered and no training needed. An enlightened society would provide trade schools for teenagers who are no good at schools, in plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics, electrician which China will need plenty of very soon.
I am saddened and disgusted in seeing children work in unsafe environment and being exploited. I personally also donate yearly a good sum to UNICEF to fight child exploitation. I wish I could do more.
What did the Communist Revolution achieve for working people? Nothing! China is right back where it was in the 1930s - child labor, prostitution, official corruption. What’s the difference?
Child labor is so common in today’s China that I feel bad about buying anything made in China. It makes me sick that I might be supporting this child exploitation.
What has been said is right - I remember waiting to get a work permit when I was in junior high. I had to be 14 to work.
Whereas it is good to work, these conditions are horrifying. As Rick, Ann, and others mentioned, these are dead end jobs and these kids are being used as robots, not people capable of autonomous thinking. I wonder how many of these children are illiterate and have gotten into disfiguring accidents b/c they could not read the warning labels. The government needs to start social programs for these kids from the countryside to get into some kind of vocational apprenticeship so that growth can be sustained. This sort of behaviour widens social and financial gaps even farther and fosters rebellion.
There is a vast difference in the lives of the country side people and the city people. Vastly greater than the US. Of course you cant fully compare the two but since i’ve lived and grew up in both countries it is the only comparison i have.
The issue here is whether these kids should work in a factory or not. Well in the US you can work at a very young age but it’s usually inside a store or at a McDonalds. Not inside a terribly unsafe factory.
These kids should be in school. What i dont really understand is how the school systems work for migrant families. Do they have the ability to go to school? If not, what are the surrounding residents doing about it? I feel that the surrounding residents are only complaining about it nothing more. The child labor problems are much greater than just children working inside factories. It has to do with the enforcement of laws, school systems, government support, social justice and the responsibilities of chinese people to each other.
On the original blog, the reporter also post another article on government crackdown in Oct. 15th. Hubei government promised to provide these children with financial support and education.
http://www.moobol.com/ms/2243/live224387.shtml
However, some of those blackheart factory bosses played hide-n-seek with government and are still employing child labor after the crackdown.
http://www.moobol.com/ms/2281/live228145.shtml
There’s no lack of laws to protect minor labors in China, such as:
“compulsory education law”
http://www.gov.cn/flfg/2006-06/30/content_323302.htm
“labor law”
http://www.laodong66.com/ldfg/gjfg/225755861.html
“Minor protection law”
http://www.gov.cn/flfg/2006-12/29/content_554397.htm
and “regulation on prohibiting minor labor”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/zhengfu/2002-10/16/content_598458.htm
according to it, child labors(under 16 years old) are prohibited.
China nowadays has serious problem in law enforcement and role of media.
No, no, no.
China is a great country.
We have flown in space.
We have show the world what we can do when we buy Russian technology and go into orbit 45 years after the USSR.
Yes, technology is much better, and we have powerful computers, but we are a powerful country.
I am so patriotic.
LIES. If you were so patriotic you’d be writing in (simplified) Chinese.
@Ann
RE: “A 15 year old in the U.S. will be allowed to work in McDonalds and KFC for a certain number of hours a week provided their grades are acceptable. Employers have to receive a permision from parents and school before they can legally employ teenagers to work. Then teenagers under 15 are not allowed to be near or use hazardous materials such as stoves, sharp objects as knives and machines. Children under 12 are strictly prohibited from working.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong. One thing you need to understand is that labor rules are LOCALITY SPECIFIC. For example, kids working out in the countryside may work much younger, as well as operating machinery, as well as get special driver’s license at much younger ages (often 14, sometimes even younger). Being locality specific means that there aren’t many hard rules I can state, however usually a job as a younger teen requires parent’s authorization, and as an older teen requires nothing - especially not school permission.
The teens in the story mentioned above are mid-teens. This is a different country. Who are you to start saying even 13 year olds can’t work here, but 15 year olds can work in the US? I don’t think the problem here is with the teenagers WORKING, but with the conditions granted to them by their boss…as well as possibly underpaying and overworking not abiding to the labor laws in place, maybe not even paying taxes or benefits as legal employees.
I don’t consider a teenager a “child worker”. A child worker, in my mind, is definitely under 12 years old. In some other people’s mind, it may be under 10, regardless - it’s up to China’s current law to determine what is legal and what is not - and the people to support that law or not, but here..the issue is not the age of the teens, it’s the conditions they’re working in.
Rick in China:
I think we are in agreement with the main issue, the age and the condition of work.
I repeat a teenager under 15 cannot be employed, a child under 12 is not at all. That is the rule in U.S. Your example of teenagers working on the farm work without money exchanged for the family farm. That is a very different situation, government assume parents have the best intention for their own children. When money is exchanged between a teenage worker and employer, there has to be laws to protect the young workers, or there will be plenty of exploitation.
In China, given the poverty, a 15 year old can help out with earning an income for the family, but not being paid less or being exposed to harzadous working environment. A 12 year old can help out in family work. American young teenagers are required to mowe lawns, rake leafs, shuffle snow for family and old neighbors in winter, deliver news paper to earn pocket money, wash dishes, walk the family dog. So, it is good teenagers be assigned work as party of learning responsibility. The issue here is about exploitation of Children.
One of major deficiency of Chinese is dignity.
It’s amazing that so many westerners enjoy the benefits of capitalism without truly understanding what it means. Capitalism means free market, period. Any restrictions on the market detracts from capitalism (and in theory reduces the efficiency of the market). Yes that means child labor laws, yes that means unions, yes that means minimum wage. US can get away with it because by abusing human rights earlier on, they have gotten wealthy enough to afford a bit of inefficiency (through taxation and a LOT of borrowing, which one may argue is very poor economics indeed).
So what if China chose a different path. It doesn’t have the credibility or the inclination to borrow over ten trillion dollars to finance government spending, it can’t afford to tax all the productive citizens heavily so it can have a large welfare program. So if you’re a family in a poor region, would you rather have your kid work in a semi-dangerous environment or just starve to death? If you’re a KID in such a family, would you rather take a few risks or see your parents and yourself starve? American kids take risks by playing football or skateboarding in the middle of a highway (yes i know some people who’ve done that) and that’s ok. Chinese kids take risks trying to help their family survive, and that’s absolute wrong. Why?
And on the bosses. It may be that their operation is only profitable with 5000/year salary. You force them to pay more for adult workers, and it may put them out of business. And EVERYOne goes hungry, including the kids you feel so sorry for. Is that what everyone wants?
And EVERYOne goes hungry, including the kids you feel so sorry for. Is that what everyone wants?
YES, WE NEED EUGENICS. THE REAL SOLUTION FOR ANY COMPETITIVE GROUP IS RID ITSELF OF UNCOMPETITVE MEMBER.
TrueCapitalist:
Your name is euphemism for exploitation and slavery. Capitalism was the only model of trade world wide in human history until before the French Revolution when the period of enlightenment came into place, philosophers set forward the belief that all men are created equal; thus changing the governments’ first responsiblity to all citizens in place of responsibility to the privilidged class only. Now, European countries are governed by capitalism and socialism combined to make for functional, compassionate society. In the kind of capitalism you advocate, the vulnerable people in society as the handicapped, the old, the sick and the young would be put out to pasture to die. It is the law of the jungle, the strong devour the weak.
Anyone in good consicence cannot advocate what you justify as the way to develop society. Taking your extreme arguement further, young girls can be sold by their parents as sex toys for pedophiles because the parents are poor and needs to make some money.
This is true Capitalism and free market at work!? Thank goodness your are the very minority in the human species.
@ TrueCapitalist
You can go back to wanking off to a picture of Ayn Rand now.
@Capitalist.
Maybe you should notice that slavery ended in the us over a hundred years ago. Granted many modern western countries are complaining to china about things they have done themselves, but not because they’re jealous of China’s progress. It’s because they have gone through the process and realize how awful it is. People are deterred from dealing with countries that dont give any regard to their own children.
Child labor laws are necessary for a country to push it’s political agenda throughout the world. They are already at a loss because the many human rights that they do not offer. Good things there’s the internet where they can at least complain about things on bbs’s regardless of how factual it actually is.
Also to simplify capitalistic economies with:
“any restrictions on the market detracts from capitalism (and in theory reduces the efficiency of the market). Yes that means child labor laws, yes that means unions, yes that means minimum wage.”
is just a huge generalization. Market systems are theory and are never fully obtained. It’s part of being human and living in a social environment. I wish i learned economics from you. It’d be a 1 day course and no graphs. Just do what you want it’ll be ok.
Ann:
While you do make some valid points, I think you’re confused about utility and selfishness. I personally take pleasure in making others lives better, but that is a choice I made, and not one forced upon me. I personally take pleasure in the welfare of my parents, so when they’re old and feeble I would take it upon myself to house/feed them and give them the luxuries that they’ve afforded me. This isn’t contrary to arguments of capitalism. All men are created equal in capacity, but some have better luck than others. it is not the government’s responsibility to equal out the luck allocation. That would be egalitarianism, and has been shown to be ineffective.
There is a higher purpose, or perhaps more basic purpose, depending on your point of view, than preserving what you think of as a right. The most basic and biological need is the need to survive. So if the only way for a young girl to survive is to submit herself to a pedophile then I would argue that is a legitimate and moral action.
Any biological being in good conscience can not advocate limiting one’s options of pursuit of survival under the guise of protecting their rights. Taking your argument further, forcing workers to work more than 10 hours a day can be outlawed, and that would do away with most of the medical service provider since premeds and residents often work over over 30 hours continuously. And before you ask, yes that is in the compassionate nation of the United States of America.
Is this the kind of compassionate society you envision? thank goodness idealists like you with no understanding of costs and compromise are not running the world
@ pzhang
last i checked, employing people at a wage you consider low is not slavery. And in case you didn’t pick it up in the original story, this isn’t a case of the big and powerful forcing others to do work for low wages. There is no kidnapping involved, and I assume all parties entered into the contract voluntarily. Do you think the parents WANTed their kids to work long and dangerous jobs if there was an alternative? The alternative is starvation. Please don’t go around with a sense of moral superiority while taking away the only means for some people to survive.
Also if you read the news, US’s efforts of pushing it’s political agenda worldwide isn’t doing all that well. The effort was valiant and perhaps commendable, but before you start using “pushing political agenda worldwide” as a justification for anything perhaps you should decide whether pushing your agenda on others is indeed justifiable.
I am not arguing that there shouldn’t be any rules, as I never said the ideal form of economy is a pure form of capitalism. Before you attack others’ positions maybe you should read and understand them first. If you can propose a solution that both preserves human rights and rids the world of poverty at once I’d love to hear it. But until you have a full grasp of the difficulties facing developing governments and subjects alike, you should not judge what others must resort to given limited resources.
@Ann RE: “I repeat a teenager under 15 cannot be employed”
I repeat, Ann, *you are wrong*. You are wrong. You are wrong. Look up the laws, look up the legality of employment, you are wrong. Please do some research before you combat with some more made up examples. I agree we’re on the same topic, but, you’re wrong about the details and claiming to be well versed - and it dilutes your point.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lA606koL3EQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=youngest+american+paid+employment+age#PPA1071,M1
In addition, I believe what TrueCapitalism is trying to state is not being received well because it’s not understood well - in a free market society (which is not what the west currently uses, mind you) people (”handicapped, the old, the sick and the young”) are not “put out to pasture to die.” I suggest you…*sigh*..again, do some research. Mises.org is a very good starting point. In fact I’ve looked up a specific refute to your point, please read Number 9 on the following link…and the rest for your own knowledge:
http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=1469
TrueCapitalist:
I read your posting alright! Here is what you said,
“There is a higher purpose, or perhaps more basic purpose, depending on your point of view, than preserving what you think of as a right. The most basic and biological need is the need to survive. So if the only way for a young girl to survive is to submit herself to a pedophile then I would argue that is a legitimate and moral action.”
“I personally take pleasure in the welfare of my parents, so when they’re old and feeble I would take it upon myself to house/feed them and give them the luxuries that they’ve afforded me. ”
When a society willingly feeds her young girls to pedophiles, then the society is no more than hell on earth. Lucky that your parents had the means to support you in a grand style and you have a fancy education to advocate wealth to be kept in the minority of society to support your old folks. But, what about the peasants who had always been forgotten. The young does not live any better than the last generation and has no hope of imporving one’s lot. As you said, ” All men are created equal in capacity, but some have better luck than others.”. No, we are not created in equal capacity. A man with one leg cannot run as fast as one with two, old folks cannot compete or work as vigorously as the young, rich kids get fancy education and many options in life where poor kids are dealth with poor nutrition, lack of medical care, and little education opportunities. Capacity is very much governed by opportunity and circustance and therefore capacity can be altered given an equal playing field.
Slavery and child labor is not just idealogy, it is realy live and death struggle daily of the poor while you sit in your easy chair in an air-conditioned room spinning theories on how to keep wealth within a small group of powerful individuals in society.
@ Ann:
your argument is flawed for the following reasons:
1. no one is advocating slavery. slavery = forced labor, bought and sold as property, and no pay. none of these criteria are satisfied here
2. who defines child? why is it that 18 is adult and 17 is child? and as others mentioned, some states allow work at 14 with parental consent. Are those state immoral? who are you to determine what a child consists of?
3. I will undoubtedly afford my parents more luxury than they afforded me. I also give very generously to charities. In fact in both absolute and percentage amounts i think i have you beat. I’m not trying to brag, merely stating that helping your fellow man is a level of awareness that must be achieved at an individual level, and not forced by the govt. In extreme, what you’re advocating is the govt take all our money and redistribute evenly. I don’t thin that’s what you want
4. FYI, I grew up w/o certainty that there will be food on the table the next day. I did not grow up in a mansion like you may imagine. Yes I’m wealthy now, but that is because my parents instilled in me the value of education, and I worked hard to earn my scholarships because my parents can’t afford tuition. So perhaps before you think the poor are just naturally helpless and we should, as a society, take up the burden, you should consider other options of helping them help themselves. working would be a good start, as these children are learning to do.
Let me assume you live in U.S. or Canada, but probably U.S. from the time of the day of your postings. What you advocate is that song and dance of a hardcore conservative Republican whose ideology has brought all of America into this economic crisis. Whether you like it or not, it is government regulations and using tax payers’ money for bail outs that would get America back on track as you speak. So, what is so great about TrueCapitalism and TrueCapitalists.
When you justify as a moral decision when parents sell young girls to pedophiles, while totally ommitting the responsibility of governments to prevent such dire situations to take place in the first place, you are the one without morals. Selling young girls to pedophiles is not excusable no matter the circumstance and non-negotiable in a moral society. It is an absolute moral imperative in any civilized society.
Quote: 1. no one is advocating slavery. slavery = forced labor, bought and sold as property, and no pay. none of these criteria are satisfied here
The slavery you defined took place in 1600 to 1850’s approx. There are modern day slavery to be reckoned with through out the world. Just check with UNICEF, and other NGO charity organizations. Slavery in the modern sense no longer requires chains around necks and ankles. Women are kept in slavery in rich men’s homes with threat of violence. Children are forced to work in dangerous conditions in mines and factories such as the children in India. The fact that you want to limit the word slavery to the historical condition only proves your arguement is irrelevant.
Quote: 2. who defines child? why is it that 18 is adult and 17 is child? and as others mentioned, some states allow work at 14 with parental consent. Are those state immoral? who are you to determine what a child consists of?
Obviously you only know how to make money, but has no knowledge of child psychology and child development stages. I do not need to define it here for you . You can read up some child psychology materials available in your local library. 14 with parental consent is the key and working on ones’ own family business or farm, not to work outside for an employer. Paper delivery by children has to have parental consent also and parents are actually the contractor, not the child, meaning parents have the responsibility over the working condition of the child.
Quote: 3) I will undoubtedly afford my parents more luxury than they afforded me. I also give very generously to charities. In fact in both absolute and percentage amounts i think i have you beat.
It matters not how much money you have in the bank and how much luxury you provide for your parents. It is compassion, understanding, that make up for love. A poor man living in a hut who provides no luxury is richer than a man who put his parents in a gilded cage with no compassion, understanding and empathy. I am sure you are much richer than most people, myself included. Your are the epitome of what went wrong in America at the moment and you have the arrogrance to go with it. Greed, Greed, Greed!!! It is only logical to assume that a person with my ideology and conscinece would be contribution generously to charity. I am not here to get hooked to your showing off of who is richer.
Quote: Taking your argument further, forcing workers to work more than 10 hours a day can be outlawed, and that would do away with most of the medical service provider since premeds and residents often work over over 30 hours continuously.
Hourly employees meaning laborers should be paid over time after 8 hrs. I did not advocate outlawing anything except child labor of under age children. Your are taking this out to the stratosphere to make it toxic fuzzy logic. Pre-med and residents in hospitals are adults under medical supervision of a licensed physician. They are not laborers, but there are talks of reducing the hours as it has been found to be not beneficial to patience.
ann:
1. any definition of slavery requires some amount of coercion, be it threat of violence or chains. find me some evidence in the article about the children and their family being forced in any way to enter into the contract besides their own poverty (which the operators of these factories have nothing to do with)
2. your argument with child psychology is severely flawed. anyone with any understanding of psychology would know that different people mature at different rates. some children are developed at 14, some not even at 20. In fact there are mentally slow people who achieve at 30 the maturity of most 15 year olds. by your definition we should make everyone take a psychological evaluation before beginning to work. while we’re on that route let’s make them take an IQ test too, and maybe an EQ, history test? military competency exam before voting for presidents since they’re technically voting for commander-in-chief?
3. i’m not sure what your point is. my point is rather than feeling like a good citizen by posting some messages about moral superiority perhaps think about doing something about it. yes i’m probably wealthier than you, and yes i know i give more than you do. the end result is, regardless of what you think about my conservatism, I do more good for the 3rd world country people that you’re only blabbering your mouth about.
3.5. since it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of ecnomics, please refrain from trying to hypothesize on what is going wrong w/ america. blaming it on me because i’m wealthy and therefore i must be greedy is simply ridiculous. And i was beginning to respect you for the good points you made earlier. Yes we the wealthy must be the problem, we must be greedy. let’s kill me, bill gates, steve jobs, and rid ourselves of microsoft, apple, and everything else that entrepreneurs have made possible. that MUST be the solution
4. for your info, residents (in the medical sense) do NOT get paid over time. the reforms you speak of are on paper only and will not pass any time soon due to inpracticalities. your argument about parents being subcontractors is equally absurd: how do you know the parents in this article did not give consent, and further act as agents/contractors for their children? how do you know what their choices are? between starvation and harsh working conditions, the “right” choice that watches out for their welfare IS to have them work in harsh conditions.
lastly i don’t know where you’re getting that i have no compassion or understanding. I don’t know why me affording my parents luxury because i’m a filial son makes it a gilded cage. It seems like you’re so stuck in your own supposed moral superiority because it allows you to ignore your inferiority in all other regards that you refuse to see my point, and even make up points to argue against. And i absolutely love how you group me in w/ conservative republicans and that is the automatic 3 strikes i need. Yes conservative republicans must all be evil and their opposite, the liberal democrats, must all be good. Let’s go with that for our next form of government
Deng once told Jiang: 精神文明 must go with 物质文明, but Jiang didn’t quite understand, or he just didn’t care at all, and the consequence is what you see these days - pollution, fraud, violence, poison, mining accidents… ALL IN THE NAME OF THE HOLLY MONEY.
Chinese reformers wanted to learn capitalism from developed nations, but they only learnt some superficial stuff, it is now that we finally start to realize there is an underlying foundation that keeps capitalism from becoming predatory, this foundation ensures that interests and conscience can co-exist.
The foundation is called rule of law.
Whoa, Ann just made this super political.
LoL, anyway, I find her saying “Your are taking this out to the stratosphere to make it toxic fuzzy logic” to be incredibly ironic. I think Ann and TrueCapitalist are misunderstanding each other…
…but that’s just me.
Shrug.
@ Peteryang:
Excellent comment.
@Ann
Stop saying stuff like “So, what is so great about TrueCapitalism and TrueCapitalists.” because America is NOT a free market economy. You do not understand economics.
TrueCapitalist:
Slavery, I agree coercion is necessary. Ask any one who is currently running a repressive regime and who are experts in coercion. Human are subject to coercion given the right form and the victims’ vulnerability. McCain under torturne and 9 years of capture by the Vietcongs confessed to agression by U.S. towards N. Vietnam and he being the agent. McCaine was a pilot with military training to not give in to coercion. Children working for underpaid jobs in dangerous conditions have no choice, firstly because they do not have the finacial means nor options to escape, secondly they are still naive, ignorant and submissive to adult authority because of their youth. Poverty of a society is no excuse for enslaving young children. It is up to the government to make sure children are not used as slaves. In this case, salavery defines the working condition, lack of escape and coercion in the form of predators taking advantage of children’s susceptibility to coercion as mentioned above. Chains and shackles are not necessary for enslavement in this day and age any longer. Societies that allow this to happen are without morals. People who do not stand up to this sort of child exploitation are participants of it.
Child development can be earmarked by stages. While it varies from individual to individual, the stretch is not so far off. A 30 year old cannot have the same development as a 15 year old unless there is neurological problems existing. A 30 year old can make risk assessment realistically while a 15 year cannot. (It has been proven by MRI immages that the brain of a 15 year old is still growing and will grow for another 10 more years). The self-awareness of a 15 year old is just developing, but it is still vulnerable to manipulation and coercion. Your explanation is so far from the truth that I advise you to seek some experts opinion.
Paper delivery. Children who deliver newspapers are under the supervision of their parents who act as subcontractors. Perhpas your children never were required to develop the value of pay for work. The reason why parents are subcontractors is because the job is performed at the homes of the parents. Therefore, parents are the ones responsible for the safety of the children while performing the paper delivery. Go ask any family whose children work as delivery boys/girls. I suspect you live in a neighborhood where parents look down on this rite of passage for youngsters. How America has changed!!!
To further along your arguement that selling girls to the sex slave trade is justifiable if parents are poor, I would give you another real life scenario of choices to make under dire situations. The Western philosophy is that in dire situations, children should be saved first, while older folks will have to accept the fate of immenent death. Take for example the Titanic shipwreck., older people volunteered to go down with the ship while children were scooped off to the life crafts. How is it that parents’ decision to sell their daughters to pedophiles so they can survive are acceptable and moral according to your opinion. Does the girl’s psychological and biological survival just as important if not more important? There was a Chinese old folklore often painted and embroidered on screens, that of a daughter-in-law nursing the mother-in-law while the child stood by her side looking longingly to the mother for nurishment. This painting was to promote felial piety in Confuscion tradition. The message is that the live of the mother-in-law out trumps the live of the child, that if the child dies, one can always have another one. But, there is only one mother-in-law! Perhaps this is the basis for your opinion.
Ultimately, a government that fails the vulnerable sectment of society is not worthy of governance. People who condone this child labor practice are greedy, corrupt sociopaths in fancy Italian suits. Bill Gates, Warrn Buffet are people with consicence follwoing the long American tradition of philanthropy, not a two bid immigrant who got rich by seeking financial success in anyway possible, including child labor and selling young girls to the sex trade.
BTW, while I do not wish to mention wealth as you had done, as it is so crass and vulgar, upity social form; I do wish to confirm that I donote to many social and enviromental organizations.
Ann:
1. you keep implying or assuming the children are sold or forced into this, find me 1 sentence that supports this.
2. if you were a government without the means for massive wealth redistribution what would you do? poverty is a motivator for many acts. some of them are not pretty, but are necessary. if you find a way to eliminate poverty please let me and the governments know. i’m sure we’ll all be interested
3. i’d suggest you check or cite the data on MRI. using patently false data in your arguments does not strengthen your argument
4. I love how you make assumptions about my personal beliefs, my family background, and even whether i have children and what they do. Do you find it convenient to your argument to make up things about your opponent and then attack him based on your assumptions?
5. poverty isn’t a matter where the parents can sacrifice themselves for the child. how do you propose the children to survive after the parents sacrificed, or eevn fed themselves to the children? I merely suggest that any action, even selling into servitude, is better than the whole family, including the child, dying
6. For your info, buffett and gates were children of immigrants. I am an immigrant. they give to charities, i give to charities. and this is where wealth comes into play. wealth gives you more means to help others. obviousy bill and warren have done more for the needy than you and i. why do you think it’s irrelevant and vulgar?
ann:
by the way making personal attacks at your opponent instead (or even in addition to) his points, especially based on false assumptions is a really good debate tactic, you should use it more often. i especially like how i am now a “two bid immigrant who got rich by seeking financial success in anyway possible, including child labor and selling young girls to the sex trade.”
This kind of debating makes me question your maturity and brings up certain memories, those from before i was a 2 bid immigrant selling people into slavery, like… perhaps middle school?
Quoting TrueCapitalist: “1. you keep implying or assuming the children are sold or forced into this…..”. Let me say it again, children do not have the ability to make rational decisions because of their under development of their brain. When someone, be it society or parents make the decision for under-age children that put them in danger, that becomes forced or coerced. When children are underpaid for what they do, and when money is exchanged for their service, and the employer benefit more than the family or the child, the labor is sold. Equitable wage for work is a fair exchange between laborer and employer. Inequitable negotiating power and pay is like goods being sold on demand and supply theory. Humans should not weighed by the same standard and policy. Again, you use the old form of slavery to define a modern situation. People do not need to be shackeled to be called slaves in modern day society.
You as an immigrant should understand the fear of illegal immigrants have to getting caught by U.S. Immigration Agents. They are willing to work in poor conditions. This is cocercion and a new form of slavery.
Quoting, “3. i’d suggest you check or cite the data on MRI. using patently false data in your arguments does not strengthen your argument.” Again, the MRI research data was widely discussed in forming social policies towards teenagers. Car insurance rates are calculated according to this factor - teenagers are poor drivers who tend to take stupid risks.
Quoting, “5. poverty isn’t a matter where the parents can sacrifice themselves for the child. how do you propose the children to survive after the parents sacrificed, or eevn fed themselves to the children? I merely suggest that any action, even selling into servitude, is better than the whole family, including the child, dying.”
So, who is responsible for not letting this dire situation happen, when China has money stashed away in the treasury. Your continue to justify the treatment and neglect of the poor becuase it is their fate, or their fault. You attitude is let them eat dirty. I am not blaming the parents here. The fault lies with government and society.
Quoting, “wealth gives you more means to help others. obviousy bill and warren have done more for the needy than you and i. why do you think it’s irrelevant and vulgar?”
To speak of or show off ones wealth as you had done in your posting is crass and vulgar. I do not care to compete or compare on this issue.
Why should some people have so much more. Why not share the wealth through taxation such as the European governments are doing? When all the wealth belong a small minority, the rich say, “I am such a good person. I have the wealth to show off. These poor souls need our help. Just look at them, dirty and have no manners”. Meanwhile they keep denying the poor of a means to improve their lot by paying them less and less. It is an expression of the utmost arrogrance of the rich.
Gates and Buffet are not new immigrants. Their generosity follows the long tradition of philanthropy of Americans rich and ordinary. I do my share and then some since I have a good amount of disposible income. But, may be not after this economic down turn.
I am not advocating communism here. The socialist governments of Europe have succeeded in eliminating poverty and yet are able to maintain the standard of living for all her citizens.
ann: you make some valid points. but there are two sides to most issues.
1. on slavery, i understand your definition of slavery, but it’s a very vague line. in an ideal world the children will be allowed to developed and learn until 18 or 25 or whatever you think the age limit should be, before being asked to shoulder the burdens of the family. In the real world that is not the case. one often does not have the luxury of waiting until they’re fully mature. just like in a war sometimes untrained soldiers are sent into battle, in life sometimes an untrained / immature human is sent to labor for survival. This is not slavery. It’s more accurate described, in the vernacular, as tough shit.
1.5 i’m not an illegal immigrant, but yes i did have quite a bit of trouble getting into the US because they have immigration rules that sometimes deny entry. However i jumped through all the hoops in coming here. Illegal immigrants are, well, illegal. To do something that is specifically prohibited and outlawed and then having to pay the consequences… well that doesn’t seem that wrong. And in case you’re thinking of dire circumstances, US does have a refugee program for people coming in because of political persecution. Until the world becomes 1 big family and national borders are blurred/erased, this is how it has to be.
3. MRI, or magnetic resonance imaging, merely detects activity in a certain part of the brain. It can’t tell how smart you are, or whether you’re emotional/psychologically stable. it can only tell if a certain part of your brain is dead (devoid of all activity). so unless there is some new research in the last 3 years that allows MRI to be used for development psychology, i don’t think your point is valid. In any case i’d love to see the source of your info and perhaps read up on newest developments of medicine.
5. The poor do need to take some responsibility in their own poverty. Even in china, there is considerable upside mobility. Yes some are granted more opportunities than others, but there are very few cases where no opportunities exist. So while it’s sad some are born into poverty, that they remain in poverty until adulthood (and childbearing age) is partially their fault. Now I agree the children shouldn’t be made to suffer because of it.
5.5. your debate seems to imply that the chinese government is exceedingly rich, with tons of money in the treasury. Question: just how much money do you think the chinese government have? The US government is by most considered the wealthiest in the world, and still there are the homeless, the poor, the destitute. Yes it is the government’s responsibilty to ensure order and opportunity, but most large social changes take time. I’m not saying it’s good to have children work in factories, but merely not it’s unavoidable. China is advancing at an incredible pace technologically and economically, but social change can not be accelerated so easily. Yes it may seem easy to just give the poor a dollar, but that doesn’t solve the fundamental problem of opportunity
and on the pros and cons of socialist government and wages, you can read up on that a bit more, but i’m somewhat of an economist (at least trained as such), so here is an overview intended more to inform than persuade.
Generally redistribution, while socially and morally tempting, has economic consequences. There are too many to enumerate, but the easiest and most obvious one is incentive. if you work at a job that pays 40/hr, you know each hour of labor you put in will give you 40 dollars to spend on family, vacation, etc. Now suppose the government comes in and claims 75%. now each additional hour you work only gives you 10 dollars. there are lots of people who would work another hour for 40 that won’t do it for 10, so you lose productivity. Overall the general gist is, think of the economy as a pie. taxation/welfare makes the slices more even, but the pie smaller.
On paying workers: generally they’ll be paid a fair wage. Why? because it’s the only nash equilibrium. assume your labor is worth $5 an hour, and as you claim the wealthy are being mean and paying them $1. all it takes is 1 wealthy man to pay $1.1 an hour, and he will immediately get all the best labor. His competitors will then need to pay at least 1.1, but will want to pay 1.2 for the first pick, and so on. eventually the bidding will raise the wage to 5. on the other hand if you have a govt come in and say minimum wage is 10 bucks, then a lot of the guys who are only worth $5 to the employer will be fired. and now they’re earning 0
@ TrueCapitalist & Ann:
You guys are approaching this issue with very different but wholly understandable perspectives. To be politically incorrect, I’d even say they exemplify stereotypical differences in how men and women interpret information and the world. Apologies if either of you is not the gender I just presumed.