In Wuhan, some black-hearted factory bosses use children as labor to squeeze extreme profits; some of these children toiling day and night for them, shedding countless tears of suffering and hardship.
Carrying the concerns of city residents, “Wang Haofeng Focus” [an independent reporter/photographer] from late September until early October, directed investigations across the Wuhan region focusing on the numerous innocent-faced workers laboring long hours in factories (they are distributed across clothing factories/printing factories/textile factories/zipper factories/etc). In order to speed up production, black-hearted bosses use them like ‘robots’, letting them rest only 6 hours per day, some only get off work at 4 in the morning; Because of serious lack of sleep, some had their fingers “bitten” by machines during production; those who made mistakes during production, are blamed and scolded by the boss; It’s 2 am in the morning, only to find these tired and beaten kids on the side of the road buying “shaobing” [a Chinese sesame bread] for a late-night snack.
A child toiling in a clothing factory said he was born in March 1995. The foreman said he just turned 15.
Asked if the kid made close to a thousand kuai a month, the foreman replied: “Not that much, just a bit”.
At a factory that makes mops, a child is ceaselessly putting rubber covering on the mop stick, he said he has been employed for 1 year already, came from Xishui in Hubei province, and has just turned 15 this year; every day, he has to cover over a thousand mop sticks. Annual salary is 5000 yuan.
Surrounding residents passionately decried, this is clearly a threat to one’s life! There are even 12 and 13 year old among them, and who can save them? Every time there is an inspection, someone will warn the factory beforehand. After the inspection/noise is over, the problem immediately returns.
Everybody knows the country severely cracks down on the illegal act of employing of children for labor. Yet in only a few days, “Wang Haofeng Focus” already uncovered so many working “baby faces.” How many of these child labors are in the Wuhan region is still an unknown number. The hope remains within the related agencies to seriously face the party/the people/the nation in a responsible manner in the future, by investigating thoroughly, to return the kids the happiness of childhood. Return to society a sense of fairness and justice.
"Working long hours in the factory, sometimes workers will hurt their fingers on the machinery."
Late in the night he is still hard at work. This is a printing factory. People in the factory revealed that he is 15, already been working for a year."
"'Mechanic' is an innocent and tender face."
"This little 'technician' is diagnosing a problem with the machine."
"This 15 year old was only recruited recently. His is still lacking skill, and is often scolded by the boss."
"Everyday he puts covers on over a thousand mop sticks. Annual salary is 5000 yuan. Born November 1993. He already been working for a year."
Comments on NetEase:
Everywhere is the same
not just Wuhan
How can it be like this? What have the Ministry of Labor been doing, why are they not taking care of it?
Sorrow, the whole society’s sorrow! Children are the hope of the future, yet they are wasting their youth there [in the factory]! Where the hell did the regulatory departments go?
These bosses, are they still fucking human?
I can’t finish reading this, I want to kill someone!
It is a little better these days. Many years ago, it was even younger, they would come when they were only 11 and 12-years-old .
The children’s parents also have responsibility. Having kids, and not raising them?!!
These kids are only around 10 years old, and already they let them go out to make money. These kind of parents must face the guilt in their conscience.
Only by learning a trade at a young age will they be competitive in the future. I support, I support.
We live in a shameless country.
So pitiful
What the fuck do you guys know. If they don’t work, then do you want then to go on the street and rob? Go steal and rob? They don’t want to go to school, that their own choice, what can you do? Don’t tell me it is the factory that forced them there? Break their legs if they run??? They are on the streets eating a late-night snack thank you very much, open your eyes, and use your brains.
They should be studying in school, isn’t tuition free now? Dammit, “ding” this up, send those bastards [factory bosses] to prison for a couple of years.
Factory bosses are black, the Ministry of Labor is even blacker.
This society still have lots of impoverished places, no choice but to go earn money at a young age. With regards to those black factories who can help regulate them! How long will these factories still exist in society!
Wuhan again! This kind of bosses should be shot on sight!
This is China. If these type of phenomenon did not exist, then it wouldn’t be China anymore.
The author wants relevant departments to inspect, and save the kids. But didn’t say whether regulation is enough. May I ask, after the kids are saved what will they do? They work because of one thing – poverty, after they leave where will they go? No outlet, no escape, they can only look for another place that hires children for labor, and if no one hires child labor, then what will they do? I thought for a while, probably only three options: 1. Repatriation; 2. Wandering around; 3. Starve to death. (First I want to say, I’m not a factory boss or worker) Please think of a solution to solve the fundamental problem, if they have other options, I reckon no family would let their kids leave home and suffer.
It is not only in Wuhan, my hometown of Hunan, my work place in Shenzhen, everywhere there is child labors, and still no one does anything about it.
China’s situation is that the poor are getting poorer, and the rich getting richer
What will regulation do? Unless there are no more poor people in China
Kids family is poor, if you regulate then there will be no place to work
Go home and go to school? There are still a lot of poor people in today’s China.
I think this is good. If these young kids don’t have work, they can only wander in society, to steal and to rob, kill and commit crimes. This would only be a life of regret. Earning some money can at least give them some hope, can help support the family, and they won’t be drifting on the streets, its not a bad thing. I came from the countrysides and am a migrant worker. All you white collars live a full life, don’t understand the sufferings of the poor. If you guys have the wherewithal/ability/heart, then go open a factory to give these kids better jobs. Too bad you guys don’t have that wherewithal/ability/heart, and only know how to complain here, the eventual outcome is these factories being closed down, these kids drift on the streets, and don’t have to work 15 hours a day, then you are content. They are now hungry, have no face to return home to their families, and you guys are now happy. They walk down the path of crime, then you’ll start blaming. These things are all the doing of you bored people, everyday talk about human rights, but actually forcing these kids into a dead end. Wake up people, do something practical.
"2 in the morning, they leave the factory and have a late-night snack at a small roadside booth. Fellow co-workers introduce the middle kid as 14-years-old."
See also:
- Peasant Girl: My life is Miserable Because I Am Poor
- Volunteers Visit Homes of Poor Migrant Worker Children
- Sister Says Family Poor, Cannot Find Boyfriend, Leaves
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‘Child Prodigy’ Is Expert Mechanic & Driver In Wuhan 
A Little Beggar Child In China 
Spoiled Child Slaps & Chokes Mother In Public For Toy 
Government Official Attacks 11-Year-Old Girl 
Mummies Dancing In Wuhan For Employment 
China supposed to be workers heaven, with “dictate of proletariat”. This is far away from communist ideals
@Maveric
Do you actually believe China’s economy is still a communist one? If so, you’re far mistaken. It’s communist politically – but for decades, has been shifting hard towards capitalism economically…not sure if you’re just poking or actually believe what you said :)
that´s weird,I´ve though being charged with child rape would led to a bullet in your head…
“We live in a shameless country.”
This poster said it right.
What do you expect? China is 150 years behind the curve. New York had child labor and swill milk scandal back in 1858; China is simply going through the same period of transition into a market economy. It took the USA until 1938 to officially outlaw child labor, don’t expect China to do any better.
Bob, you are right. Western countries had similar experiences that many eastern countries are now going through. Often times, people forget this. It’s really hard to look at the pictures without a wave of anger hitting you. Who can you blame for the children putting in this situation, their parents? the government? the bosses? or the children themselves? I wish the government would implement baby step laws like at least decent work hours and better work condition.
China’s getting rid of everything that was good about the communist system and keeping all the bad.
@Bob: China *does have child labor laws*.
The kids in the article seem to be 14-15 years old when they start working. In Canada/US it’s not far off – while much of child labor laws allow for state/sometimes even city level restrictions to limit types and hours of work for certain age groups, it’s not a significant difference from Chinese labor laws. The problem here is that the information is not sufficient to determine whether laws are even being broken – although I’d some some are because they seem to want to be tipped off when inspections occur – not that I know specifics on the child labor laws in China either but in Canada a kid can work in some basic functionality when he’s ~13 in many parts of the country if he has parental consent. I think it’s unfair and incorrect to say the laws are ‘150 years behind the curve’, in fact, the economic situation of much of the countryside is largely responsible as well as the enforcement of many laws.
Watching a 15 year old kid work in a crappy environment only breaks my heart to the extent that much of the world is in poverty and can’t focus on education, the fact it happens here in China is no different than the fact it happens in many parts of the world, even in much worse situations than described above, and this is nothing new nor newsworthy in my opinion. My opinion might be jaded through traveling around Africa and other parts of Asia, mind you. Rather than just watch and fake compassion from my living room as many above posters, I often donate (especially whenever I travel) to organizations like http://www.emiratesfoundation.com who really focus their distributed donation and volunteer efforts on improving the lives of children in various countries, often places that have been struck by disease or natural hardship.
There’s a lot of poverty and disgusting abuse of children in China, but having been way out…way out in the countryside, I think it’s safe to say (with exceptions) it’s not as bad as it is in many parts of the world.
EXECUTE THE BOSS!!! EVIL DOG!!
this is nothing to do with government, it is the fking boss!!! execute him
I think it is okay for a child to ‘work’ but the conditions must be safe and reasonable. Another problem in many families is that they totally coddle the child and then when they grow up they are useless and spoiled. It seems in the big cities in China the ‘upper’ class (whatever that means) are raising coddled children, whereas in the countryside it is the opposite. There must be some balance. I worked for my father’s company after classes in middle school sometimes. I hated it and it wasn’t completely safe but I am better for it (I am not from China). Would a father in China, who owns his own company, actually make his child perform some work just to instill some character in the child? Children aren’t going to break but we must make sure they have decent conditions, but that should apply to all workers young or old. The children should be taught and protected by the boss, not taken advantage of.
Thank you, ChinaSmack, for being a light, for revealing these vile diseases. Of course, there are many journalists in China who know about these things. But they choose to honor the lives of the corrupt bosses, private and public, rather than the lives of their victims. Those cowardly journalists care most about their own pockets. But their days are numbered. ChinaSmack is the future of China’s journalists. I proudly tell my friends about this website.
To the ignoramous who says that China is just 150 years behind the US, so every evil that the US did China has the freedom to do – you’re disgusting! By such perverse logic the world is completely hopeless: There will always be an excuse to steal, kill, and destroy. We know who your father is.
Different families has different troubles.SO some children has to work to
support themselves or thier family.The only true method to change this
situation is that the goverment faces this problem and truely sloves it.Because it happens all over our country.But it maybe impossible in the coming years.
I hear voices of reason here and I hear calls for fast execution of the bosses. Poverty is a economic situations that generates child labor, child prostitution through out the under developed world. Although China is no longer so desperately poor like Pakistan, Phillipines, Cambodia, so it is now a matter of enforcement of what are already in the books. It takes power and authority and clean governance to be effective. Will CCP have the will to sweep away this worst form of exploitation and slavery?
A 15 year old in the U.S. will be allowed to work in McDonalds and KFC for a certain number of hours a week provided their grades are acceptable. Employers have to receive a permision from parents and school before they can legally employ teenagers to work. Then teenagers under 15 are not allowed to be near or use hazardous materials such as stoves, sharp objects as knives and machines. Children under 12 are strictly prohibited from working. The main concerns in this situation as reported by Chinasmacks are work safety- use of machinery and unsafe work environment, hours of work and time of the day, type of work and age of the workers. From the video, it appears violations of labor laws have been committed. Furthermore, these jobs are dead end jobs, with no skills offered and no training needed. An enlightened society would provide trade schools for teenagers who are no good at schools, in plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics, electrician which China will need plenty of very soon.
I am saddened and disgusted in seeing children work in unsafe environment and being exploited. I personally also donate yearly a good sum to UNICEF to fight child exploitation. I wish I could do more.
What did the Communist Revolution achieve for working people? Nothing! China is right back where it was in the 1930s – child labor, prostitution, official corruption. What’s the difference?
Child labor is so common in today’s China that I feel bad about buying anything made in China. It makes me sick that I might be supporting this child exploitation.
What has been said is right – I remember waiting to get a work permit when I was in junior high. I had to be 14 to work.
Whereas it is good to work, these conditions are horrifying. As Rick, Ann, and others mentioned, these are dead end jobs and these kids are being used as robots, not people capable of autonomous thinking. I wonder how many of these children are illiterate and have gotten into disfiguring accidents b/c they could not read the warning labels. The government needs to start social programs for these kids from the countryside to get into some kind of vocational apprenticeship so that growth can be sustained. This sort of behaviour widens social and financial gaps even farther and fosters rebellion.
There is a vast difference in the lives of the country side people and the city people. Vastly greater than the US. Of course you cant fully compare the two but since i’ve lived and grew up in both countries it is the only comparison i have.
The issue here is whether these kids should work in a factory or not. Well in the US you can work at a very young age but it’s usually inside a store or at a McDonalds. Not inside a terribly unsafe factory.
These kids should be in school. What i dont really understand is how the school systems work for migrant families. Do they have the ability to go to school? If not, what are the surrounding residents doing about it? I feel that the surrounding residents are only complaining about it nothing more. The child labor problems are much greater than just children working inside factories. It has to do with the enforcement of laws, school systems, government support, social justice and the responsibilities of chinese people to each other.
On the original blog, the reporter also post another article on government crackdown in Oct. 15th. Hubei government promised to provide these children with financial support and education.
http://www.moobol.com/ms/2243/live224387.shtml
However, some of those blackheart factory bosses played hide-n-seek with government and are still employing child labor after the crackdown.
http://www.moobol.com/ms/2281/live228145.shtml
There’s no lack of laws to protect minor labors in China, such as:
“compulsory education law”
http://www.gov.cn/flfg/2006-06/30/content_323302.htm
“labor law”
http://www.laodong66.com/ldfg/gjfg/225755861.html
“Minor protection law”
http://www.gov.cn/flfg/2006-12/29/content_554397.htm
and “regulation on prohibiting minor labor”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/zhengfu/2002-10/16/content_598458.htm
according to it, child labors(under 16 years old) are prohibited.
China nowadays has serious problem in law enforcement and role of media.
No, no, no.
China is a great country.
We have flown in space.
We have show the world what we can do when we buy Russian technology and go into orbit 45 years after the USSR.
Yes, technology is much better, and we have powerful computers, but we are a powerful country.
I am so patriotic.
LIES. If you were so patriotic you’d be writing in (simplified) Chinese.
@Ann
RE: “A 15 year old in the U.S. will be allowed to work in McDonalds and KFC for a certain number of hours a week provided their grades are acceptable. Employers have to receive a permision from parents and school before they can legally employ teenagers to work. Then teenagers under 15 are not allowed to be near or use hazardous materials such as stoves, sharp objects as knives and machines. Children under 12 are strictly prohibited from working.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong. One thing you need to understand is that labor rules are LOCALITY SPECIFIC. For example, kids working out in the countryside may work much younger, as well as operating machinery, as well as get special driver’s license at much younger ages (often 14, sometimes even younger). Being locality specific means that there aren’t many hard rules I can state, however usually a job as a younger teen requires parent’s authorization, and as an older teen requires nothing – especially not school permission.
The teens in the story mentioned above are mid-teens. This is a different country. Who are you to start saying even 13 year olds can’t work here, but 15 year olds can work in the US? I don’t think the problem here is with the teenagers WORKING, but with the conditions granted to them by their boss…as well as possibly underpaying and overworking not abiding to the labor laws in place, maybe not even paying taxes or benefits as legal employees.
I don’t consider a teenager a “child worker”. A child worker, in my mind, is definitely under 12 years old. In some other people’s mind, it may be under 10, regardless – it’s up to China’s current law to determine what is legal and what is not – and the people to support that law or not, but here..the issue is not the age of the teens, it’s the conditions they’re working in.
Rick in China:
I think we are in agreement with the main issue, the age and the condition of work.
I repeat a teenager under 15 cannot be employed, a child under 12 is not at all. That is the rule in U.S. Your example of teenagers working on the farm work without money exchanged for the family farm. That is a very different situation, government assume parents have the best intention for their own children. When money is exchanged between a teenage worker and employer, there has to be laws to protect the young workers, or there will be plenty of exploitation.
In China, given the poverty, a 15 year old can help out with earning an income for the family, but not being paid less or being exposed to harzadous working environment. A 12 year old can help out in family work. American young teenagers are required to mowe lawns, rake leafs, shuffle snow for family and old neighbors in winter, deliver news paper to earn pocket money, wash dishes, walk the family dog. So, it is good teenagers be assigned work as party of learning responsibility. The issue here is about exploitation of Children.
One of major deficiency of Chinese is dignity.
It’s amazing that so many westerners enjoy the benefits of capitalism without truly understanding what it means. Capitalism means free market, period. Any restrictions on the market detracts from capitalism (and in theory reduces the efficiency of the market). Yes that means child labor laws, yes that means unions, yes that means minimum wage. US can get away with it because by abusing human rights earlier on, they have gotten wealthy enough to afford a bit of inefficiency (through taxation and a LOT of borrowing, which one may argue is very poor economics indeed).
So what if China chose a different path. It doesn’t have the credibility or the inclination to borrow over ten trillion dollars to finance government spending, it can’t afford to tax all the productive citizens heavily so it can have a large welfare program. So if you’re a family in a poor region, would you rather have your kid work in a semi-dangerous environment or just starve to death? If you’re a KID in such a family, would you rather take a few risks or see your parents and yourself starve? American kids take risks by playing football or skateboarding in the middle of a highway (yes i know some people who’ve done that) and that’s ok. Chinese kids take risks trying to help their family survive, and that’s absolute wrong. Why?
And on the bosses. It may be that their operation is only profitable with 5000/year salary. You force them to pay more for adult workers, and it may put them out of business. And EVERYOne goes hungry, including the kids you feel so sorry for. Is that what everyone wants?
And EVERYOne goes hungry, including the kids you feel so sorry for. Is that what everyone wants?
YES, WE NEED EUGENICS. THE REAL SOLUTION FOR ANY COMPETITIVE GROUP IS RID ITSELF OF UNCOMPETITVE MEMBER.
TrueCapitalist:
Your name is euphemism for exploitation and slavery. Capitalism was the only model of trade world wide in human history until before the French Revolution when the period of enlightenment came into place, philosophers set forward the belief that all men are created equal; thus changing the governments’ first responsiblity to all citizens in place of responsibility to the privilidged class only. Now, European countries are governed by capitalism and socialism combined to make for functional, compassionate society. In the kind of capitalism you advocate, the vulnerable people in society as the handicapped, the old, the sick and the young would be put out to pasture to die. It is the law of the jungle, the strong devour the weak.
Anyone in good consicence cannot advocate what you justify as the way to develop society. Taking your extreme arguement further, young girls can be sold by their parents as sex toys for pedophiles because the parents are poor and needs to make some money.
This is true Capitalism and free market at work!? Thank goodness your are the very minority in the human species.
@ TrueCapitalist
You can go back to wanking off to a picture of Ayn Rand now.
@Capitalist.
Maybe you should notice that slavery ended in the us over a hundred years ago. Granted many modern western countries are complaining to china about things they have done themselves, but not because they’re jealous of China’s progress. It’s because they have gone through the process and realize how awful it is. People are deterred from dealing with countries that dont give any regard to their own children.
Child labor laws are necessary for a country to push it’s political agenda throughout the world. They are already at a loss because the many human rights that they do not offer. Good things there’s the internet where they can at least complain about things on bbs’s regardless of how factual it actually is.
Also to simplify capitalistic economies with:
“any restrictions on the market detracts from capitalism (and in theory reduces the efficiency of the market). Yes that means child labor laws, yes that means unions, yes that means minimum wage.”
is just a huge generalization. Market systems are theory and are never fully obtained. It’s part of being human and living in a social environment. I wish i learned economics from you. It’d be a 1 day course and no graphs. Just do what you want it’ll be ok.
Ann:
While you do make some valid points, I think you’re confused about utility and selfishness. I personally take pleasure in making others lives better, but that is a choice I made, and not one forced upon me. I personally take pleasure in the welfare of my parents, so when they’re old and feeble I would take it upon myself to house/feed them and give them the luxuries that they’ve afforded me. This isn’t contrary to arguments of capitalism. All men are created equal in capacity, but some have better luck than others. it is not the government’s responsibility to equal out the luck allocation. That would be egalitarianism, and has been shown to be ineffective.
There is a higher purpose, or perhaps more basic purpose, depending on your point of view, than preserving what you think of as a right. The most basic and biological need is the need to survive. So if the only way for a young girl to survive is to submit herself to a pedophile then I would argue that is a legitimate and moral action.
Any biological being in good conscience can not advocate limiting one’s options of pursuit of survival under the guise of protecting their rights. Taking your argument further, forcing workers to work more than 10 hours a day can be outlawed, and that would do away with most of the medical service provider since premeds and residents often work over over 30 hours continuously. And before you ask, yes that is in the compassionate nation of the United States of America.
Is this the kind of compassionate society you envision? thank goodness idealists like you with no understanding of costs and compromise are not running the world
@ pzhang
last i checked, employing people at a wage you consider low is not slavery. And in case you didn’t pick it up in the original story, this isn’t a case of the big and powerful forcing others to do work for low wages. There is no kidnapping involved, and I assume all parties entered into the contract voluntarily. Do you think the parents WANTed their kids to work long and dangerous jobs if there was an alternative? The alternative is starvation. Please don’t go around with a sense of moral superiority while taking away the only means for some people to survive.
Also if you read the news, US’s efforts of pushing it’s political agenda worldwide isn’t doing all that well. The effort was valiant and perhaps commendable, but before you start using “pushing political agenda worldwide” as a justification for anything perhaps you should decide whether pushing your agenda on others is indeed justifiable.
I am not arguing that there shouldn’t be any rules, as I never said the ideal form of economy is a pure form of capitalism. Before you attack others’ positions maybe you should read and understand them first. If you can propose a solution that both preserves human rights and rids the world of poverty at once I’d love to hear it. But until you have a full grasp of the difficulties facing developing governments and subjects alike, you should not judge what others must resort to given limited resources.
@Ann RE: “I repeat a teenager under 15 cannot be employed”
I repeat, Ann, *you are wrong*. You are wrong. You are wrong. Look up the laws, look up the legality of employment, you are wrong. Please do some research before you combat with some more made up examples. I agree we’re on the same topic, but, you’re wrong about the details and claiming to be well versed – and it dilutes your point.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lA606koL3EQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=youngest+american+paid+employment+age#PPA1071,M1
In addition, I believe what TrueCapitalism is trying to state is not being received well because it’s not understood well – in a free market society (which is not what the west currently uses, mind you) people (”handicapped, the old, the sick and the young”) are not “put out to pasture to die.” I suggest you…*sigh*..again, do some research. Mises.org is a very good starting point. In fact I’ve looked up a specific refute to your point, please read Number 9 on the following link…and the rest for your own knowledge:
http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=1469
TrueCapitalist:
I read your posting alright! Here is what you said,
“There is a higher purpose, or perhaps more basic purpose, depending on your point of view, than preserving what you think of as a right. The most basic and biological need is the need to survive. So if the only way for a young girl to survive is to submit herself to a pedophile then I would argue that is a legitimate and moral action.”
“I personally take pleasure in the welfare of my parents, so when they’re old and feeble I would take it upon myself to house/feed them and give them the luxuries that they’ve afforded me. ”
When a society willingly feeds her young girls to pedophiles, then the society is no more than hell on earth. Lucky that your parents had the means to support you in a grand style and you have a fancy education to advocate wealth to be kept in the minority of society to support your old folks. But, what about the peasants who had always been forgotten. The young does not live any better than the last generation and has no hope of imporving one’s lot. As you said, ” All men are created equal in capacity, but some have better luck than others.”. No, we are not created in equal capacity. A man with one leg cannot run as fast as one with two, old folks cannot compete or work as vigorously as the young, rich kids get fancy education and many options in life where poor kids are dealth with poor nutrition, lack of medical care, and little education opportunities. Capacity is very much governed by opportunity and circustance and therefore capacity can be altered given an equal playing field.
Slavery and child labor is not just idealogy, it is realy live and death struggle daily of the poor while you sit in your easy chair in an air-conditioned room spinning theories on how to keep wealth within a small group of powerful individuals in society.
@ Ann:
your argument is flawed for the following reasons:
1. no one is advocating slavery. slavery = forced labor, bought and sold as property, and no pay. none of these criteria are satisfied here
2. who defines child? why is it that 18 is adult and 17 is child? and as others mentioned, some states allow work at 14 with parental consent. Are those state immoral? who are you to determine what a child consists of?
3. I will undoubtedly afford my parents more luxury than they afforded me. I also give very generously to charities. In fact in both absolute and percentage amounts i think i have you beat. I’m not trying to brag, merely stating that helping your fellow man is a level of awareness that must be achieved at an individual level, and not forced by the govt. In extreme, what you’re advocating is the govt take all our money and redistribute evenly. I don’t thin that’s what you want
4. FYI, I grew up w/o certainty that there will be food on the table the next day. I did not grow up in a mansion like you may imagine. Yes I’m wealthy now, but that is because my parents instilled in me the value of education, and I worked hard to earn my scholarships because my parents can’t afford tuition. So perhaps before you think the poor are just naturally helpless and we should, as a society, take up the burden, you should consider other options of helping them help themselves. working would be a good start, as these children are learning to do.
Let me assume you live in U.S. or Canada, but probably U.S. from the time of the day of your postings. What you advocate is that song and dance of a hardcore conservative Republican whose ideology has brought all of America into this economic crisis. Whether you like it or not, it is government regulations and using tax payers’ money for bail outs that would get America back on track as you speak. So, what is so great about TrueCapitalism and TrueCapitalists.
When you justify as a moral decision when parents sell young girls to pedophiles, while totally ommitting the responsibility of governments to prevent such dire situations to take place in the first place, you are the one without morals. Selling young girls to pedophiles is not excusable no matter the circumstance and non-negotiable in a moral society. It is an absolute moral imperative in any civilized society.
Quote: 1. no one is advocating slavery. slavery = forced labor, bought and sold as property, and no pay. none of these criteria are satisfied here
The slavery you defined took place in 1600 to 1850’s approx. There are modern day slavery to be reckoned with through out the world. Just check with UNICEF, and other NGO charity organizations. Slavery in the modern sense no longer requires chains around necks and ankles. Women are kept in slavery in rich men’s homes with threat of violence. Children are forced to work in dangerous conditions in mines and factories such as the children in India. The fact that you want to limit the word slavery to the historical condition only proves your arguement is irrelevant.
Quote: 2. who defines child? why is it that 18 is adult and 17 is child? and as others mentioned, some states allow work at 14 with parental consent. Are those state immoral? who are you to determine what a child consists of?
Obviously you only know how to make money, but has no knowledge of child psychology and child development stages. I do not need to define it here for you . You can read up some child psychology materials available in your local library. 14 with parental consent is the key and working on ones’ own family business or farm, not to work outside for an employer. Paper delivery by children has to have parental consent also and parents are actually the contractor, not the child, meaning parents have the responsibility over the working condition of the child.
Quote: 3) I will undoubtedly afford my parents more luxury than they afforded me. I also give very generously to charities. In fact in both absolute and percentage amounts i think i have you beat.
It matters not how much money you have in the bank and how much luxury you provide for your parents. It is compassion, understanding, that make up for love. A poor man living in a hut who provides no luxury is richer than a man who put his parents in a gilded cage with no compassion, understanding and empathy. I am sure you are much richer than most people, myself included. Your are the epitome of what went wrong in America at the moment and you have the arrogrance to go with it. Greed, Greed, Greed!!! It is only logical to assume that a person with my ideology and conscinece would be contribution generously to charity. I am not here to get hooked to your showing off of who is richer.
Quote: Taking your argument further, forcing workers to work more than 10 hours a day can be outlawed, and that would do away with most of the medical service provider since premeds and residents often work over over 30 hours continuously.
Hourly employees meaning laborers should be paid over time after 8 hrs. I did not advocate outlawing anything except child labor of under age children. Your are taking this out to the stratosphere to make it toxic fuzzy logic. Pre-med and residents in hospitals are adults under medical supervision of a licensed physician. They are not laborers, but there are talks of reducing the hours as it has been found to be not beneficial to patience.
ann:
1. any definition of slavery requires some amount of coercion, be it threat of violence or chains. find me some evidence in the article about the children and their family being forced in any way to enter into the contract besides their own poverty (which the operators of these factories have nothing to do with)
2. your argument with child psychology is severely flawed. anyone with any understanding of psychology would know that different people mature at different rates. some children are developed at 14, some not even at 20. In fact there are mentally slow people who achieve at 30 the maturity of most 15 year olds. by your definition we should make everyone take a psychological evaluation before beginning to work. while we’re on that route let’s make them take an IQ test too, and maybe an EQ, history test? military competency exam before voting for presidents since they’re technically voting for commander-in-chief?
3. i’m not sure what your point is. my point is rather than feeling like a good citizen by posting some messages about moral superiority perhaps think about doing something about it. yes i’m probably wealthier than you, and yes i know i give more than you do. the end result is, regardless of what you think about my conservatism, I do more good for the 3rd world country people that you’re only blabbering your mouth about.
3.5. since it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of ecnomics, please refrain from trying to hypothesize on what is going wrong w/ america. blaming it on me because i’m wealthy and therefore i must be greedy is simply ridiculous. And i was beginning to respect you for the good points you made earlier. Yes we the wealthy must be the problem, we must be greedy. let’s kill me, bill gates, steve jobs, and rid ourselves of microsoft, apple, and everything else that entrepreneurs have made possible. that MUST be the solution
4. for your info, residents (in the medical sense) do NOT get paid over time. the reforms you speak of are on paper only and will not pass any time soon due to inpracticalities. your argument about parents being subcontractors is equally absurd: how do you know the parents in this article did not give consent, and further act as agents/contractors for their children? how do you know what their choices are? between starvation and harsh working conditions, the “right” choice that watches out for their welfare IS to have them work in harsh conditions.
lastly i don’t know where you’re getting that i have no compassion or understanding. I don’t know why me affording my parents luxury because i’m a filial son makes it a gilded cage. It seems like you’re so stuck in your own supposed moral superiority because it allows you to ignore your inferiority in all other regards that you refuse to see my point, and even make up points to argue against. And i absolutely love how you group me in w/ conservative republicans and that is the automatic 3 strikes i need. Yes conservative republicans must all be evil and their opposite, the liberal democrats, must all be good. Let’s go with that for our next form of government
Deng once told Jiang: 精神文明 must go with 物质文明, but Jiang didn’t quite understand, or he just didn’t care at all, and the consequence is what you see these days – pollution, fraud, violence, poison, mining accidents… ALL IN THE NAME OF THE HOLLY MONEY.
Chinese reformers wanted to learn capitalism from developed nations, but they only learnt some superficial stuff, it is now that we finally start to realize there is an underlying foundation that keeps capitalism from becoming predatory, this foundation ensures that interests and conscience can co-exist.
The foundation is called rule of law.
Whoa, Ann just made this super political.
LoL, anyway, I find her saying “Your are taking this out to the stratosphere to make it toxic fuzzy logic” to be incredibly ironic. I think Ann and TrueCapitalist are misunderstanding each other…
…but that’s just me.
Shrug.
@ Peteryang:
Excellent comment.
@Ann
Stop saying stuff like “So, what is so great about TrueCapitalism and TrueCapitalists.” because America is NOT a free market economy. You do not understand economics.
TrueCapitalist:
Slavery, I agree coercion is necessary. Ask any one who is currently running a repressive regime and who are experts in coercion. Human are subject to coercion given the right form and the victims’ vulnerability. McCain under torturne and 9 years of capture by the Vietcongs confessed to agression by U.S. towards N. Vietnam and he being the agent. McCaine was a pilot with military training to not give in to coercion. Children working for underpaid jobs in dangerous conditions have no choice, firstly because they do not have the finacial means nor options to escape, secondly they are still naive, ignorant and submissive to adult authority because of their youth. Poverty of a society is no excuse for enslaving young children. It is up to the government to make sure children are not used as slaves. In this case, salavery defines the working condition, lack of escape and coercion in the form of predators taking advantage of children’s susceptibility to coercion as mentioned above. Chains and shackles are not necessary for enslavement in this day and age any longer. Societies that allow this to happen are without morals. People who do not stand up to this sort of child exploitation are participants of it.
Child development can be earmarked by stages. While it varies from individual to individual, the stretch is not so far off. A 30 year old cannot have the same development as a 15 year old unless there is neurological problems existing. A 30 year old can make risk assessment realistically while a 15 year cannot. (It has been proven by MRI immages that the brain of a 15 year old is still growing and will grow for another 10 more years). The self-awareness of a 15 year old is just developing, but it is still vulnerable to manipulation and coercion. Your explanation is so far from the truth that I advise you to seek some experts opinion.
Paper delivery. Children who deliver newspapers are under the supervision of their parents who act as subcontractors. Perhpas your children never were required to develop the value of pay for work. The reason why parents are subcontractors is because the job is performed at the homes of the parents. Therefore, parents are the ones responsible for the safety of the children while performing the paper delivery. Go ask any family whose children work as delivery boys/girls. I suspect you live in a neighborhood where parents look down on this rite of passage for youngsters. How America has changed!!!
To further along your arguement that selling girls to the sex slave trade is justifiable if parents are poor, I would give you another real life scenario of choices to make under dire situations. The Western philosophy is that in dire situations, children should be saved first, while older folks will have to accept the fate of immenent death. Take for example the Titanic shipwreck., older people volunteered to go down with the ship while children were scooped off to the life crafts. How is it that parents’ decision to sell their daughters to pedophiles so they can survive are acceptable and moral according to your opinion. Does the girl’s psychological and biological survival just as important if not more important? There was a Chinese old folklore often painted and embroidered on screens, that of a daughter-in-law nursing the mother-in-law while the child stood by her side looking longingly to the mother for nurishment. This painting was to promote felial piety in Confuscion tradition. The message is that the live of the mother-in-law out trumps the live of the child, that if the child dies, one can always have another one. But, there is only one mother-in-law! Perhaps this is the basis for your opinion.
Ultimately, a government that fails the vulnerable sectment of society is not worthy of governance. People who condone this child labor practice are greedy, corrupt sociopaths in fancy Italian suits. Bill Gates, Warrn Buffet are people with consicence follwoing the long American tradition of philanthropy, not a two bid immigrant who got rich by seeking financial success in anyway possible, including child labor and selling young girls to the sex trade.
BTW, while I do not wish to mention wealth as you had done, as it is so crass and vulgar, upity social form; I do wish to confirm that I donote to many social and enviromental organizations.
Ann:
1. you keep implying or assuming the children are sold or forced into this, find me 1 sentence that supports this.
2. if you were a government without the means for massive wealth redistribution what would you do? poverty is a motivator for many acts. some of them are not pretty, but are necessary. if you find a way to eliminate poverty please let me and the governments know. i’m sure we’ll all be interested
3. i’d suggest you check or cite the data on MRI. using patently false data in your arguments does not strengthen your argument
4. I love how you make assumptions about my personal beliefs, my family background, and even whether i have children and what they do. Do you find it convenient to your argument to make up things about your opponent and then attack him based on your assumptions?
5. poverty isn’t a matter where the parents can sacrifice themselves for the child. how do you propose the children to survive after the parents sacrificed, or eevn fed themselves to the children? I merely suggest that any action, even selling into servitude, is better than the whole family, including the child, dying
6. For your info, buffett and gates were children of immigrants. I am an immigrant. they give to charities, i give to charities. and this is where wealth comes into play. wealth gives you more means to help others. obviousy bill and warren have done more for the needy than you and i. why do you think it’s irrelevant and vulgar?
ann:
by the way making personal attacks at your opponent instead (or even in addition to) his points, especially based on false assumptions is a really good debate tactic, you should use it more often. i especially like how i am now a “two bid immigrant who got rich by seeking financial success in anyway possible, including child labor and selling young girls to the sex trade.”
This kind of debating makes me question your maturity and brings up certain memories, those from before i was a 2 bid immigrant selling people into slavery, like… perhaps middle school?
Quoting TrueCapitalist: “1. you keep implying or assuming the children are sold or forced into this…..”. Let me say it again, children do not have the ability to make rational decisions because of their under development of their brain. When someone, be it society or parents make the decision for under-age children that put them in danger, that becomes forced or coerced. When children are underpaid for what they do, and when money is exchanged for their service, and the employer benefit more than the family or the child, the labor is sold. Equitable wage for work is a fair exchange between laborer and employer. Inequitable negotiating power and pay is like goods being sold on demand and supply theory. Humans should not weighed by the same standard and policy. Again, you use the old form of slavery to define a modern situation. People do not need to be shackeled to be called slaves in modern day society.
You as an immigrant should understand the fear of illegal immigrants have to getting caught by U.S. Immigration Agents. They are willing to work in poor conditions. This is cocercion and a new form of slavery.
Quoting, “3. i’d suggest you check or cite the data on MRI. using patently false data in your arguments does not strengthen your argument.” Again, the MRI research data was widely discussed in forming social policies towards teenagers. Car insurance rates are calculated according to this factor – teenagers are poor drivers who tend to take stupid risks.
Quoting, “5. poverty isn’t a matter where the parents can sacrifice themselves for the child. how do you propose the children to survive after the parents sacrificed, or eevn fed themselves to the children? I merely suggest that any action, even selling into servitude, is better than the whole family, including the child, dying.”
So, who is responsible for not letting this dire situation happen, when China has money stashed away in the treasury. Your continue to justify the treatment and neglect of the poor becuase it is their fate, or their fault. You attitude is let them eat dirty. I am not blaming the parents here. The fault lies with government and society.
Quoting, “wealth gives you more means to help others. obviousy bill and warren have done more for the needy than you and i. why do you think it’s irrelevant and vulgar?”
To speak of or show off ones wealth as you had done in your posting is crass and vulgar. I do not care to compete or compare on this issue.
Why should some people have so much more. Why not share the wealth through taxation such as the European governments are doing? When all the wealth belong a small minority, the rich say, “I am such a good person. I have the wealth to show off. These poor souls need our help. Just look at them, dirty and have no manners”. Meanwhile they keep denying the poor of a means to improve their lot by paying them less and less. It is an expression of the utmost arrogrance of the rich.
Gates and Buffet are not new immigrants. Their generosity follows the long tradition of philanthropy of Americans rich and ordinary. I do my share and then some since I have a good amount of disposible income. But, may be not after this economic down turn.
I am not advocating communism here. The socialist governments of Europe have succeeded in eliminating poverty and yet are able to maintain the standard of living for all her citizens.
ann: you make some valid points. but there are two sides to most issues.
1. on slavery, i understand your definition of slavery, but it’s a very vague line. in an ideal world the children will be allowed to developed and learn until 18 or 25 or whatever you think the age limit should be, before being asked to shoulder the burdens of the family. In the real world that is not the case. one often does not have the luxury of waiting until they’re fully mature. just like in a war sometimes untrained soldiers are sent into battle, in life sometimes an untrained / immature human is sent to labor for survival. This is not slavery. It’s more accurate described, in the vernacular, as tough shit.
1.5 i’m not an illegal immigrant, but yes i did have quite a bit of trouble getting into the US because they have immigration rules that sometimes deny entry. However i jumped through all the hoops in coming here. Illegal immigrants are, well, illegal. To do something that is specifically prohibited and outlawed and then having to pay the consequences… well that doesn’t seem that wrong. And in case you’re thinking of dire circumstances, US does have a refugee program for people coming in because of political persecution. Until the world becomes 1 big family and national borders are blurred/erased, this is how it has to be.
3. MRI, or magnetic resonance imaging, merely detects activity in a certain part of the brain. It can’t tell how smart you are, or whether you’re emotional/psychologically stable. it can only tell if a certain part of your brain is dead (devoid of all activity). so unless there is some new research in the last 3 years that allows MRI to be used for development psychology, i don’t think your point is valid. In any case i’d love to see the source of your info and perhaps read up on newest developments of medicine.
5. The poor do need to take some responsibility in their own poverty. Even in china, there is considerable upside mobility. Yes some are granted more opportunities than others, but there are very few cases where no opportunities exist. So while it’s sad some are born into poverty, that they remain in poverty until adulthood (and childbearing age) is partially their fault. Now I agree the children shouldn’t be made to suffer because of it.
5.5. your debate seems to imply that the chinese government is exceedingly rich, with tons of money in the treasury. Question: just how much money do you think the chinese government have? The US government is by most considered the wealthiest in the world, and still there are the homeless, the poor, the destitute. Yes it is the government’s responsibilty to ensure order and opportunity, but most large social changes take time. I’m not saying it’s good to have children work in factories, but merely not it’s unavoidable. China is advancing at an incredible pace technologically and economically, but social change can not be accelerated so easily. Yes it may seem easy to just give the poor a dollar, but that doesn’t solve the fundamental problem of opportunity
and on the pros and cons of socialist government and wages, you can read up on that a bit more, but i’m somewhat of an economist (at least trained as such), so here is an overview intended more to inform than persuade.
Generally redistribution, while socially and morally tempting, has economic consequences. There are too many to enumerate, but the easiest and most obvious one is incentive. if you work at a job that pays 40/hr, you know each hour of labor you put in will give you 40 dollars to spend on family, vacation, etc. Now suppose the government comes in and claims 75%. now each additional hour you work only gives you 10 dollars. there are lots of people who would work another hour for 40 that won’t do it for 10, so you lose productivity. Overall the general gist is, think of the economy as a pie. taxation/welfare makes the slices more even, but the pie smaller.
On paying workers: generally they’ll be paid a fair wage. Why? because it’s the only nash equilibrium. assume your labor is worth $5 an hour, and as you claim the wealthy are being mean and paying them $1. all it takes is 1 wealthy man to pay $1.1 an hour, and he will immediately get all the best labor. His competitors will then need to pay at least 1.1, but will want to pay 1.2 for the first pick, and so on. eventually the bidding will raise the wage to 5. on the other hand if you have a govt come in and say minimum wage is 10 bucks, then a lot of the guys who are only worth $5 to the employer will be fired. and now they’re earning 0
@ TrueCapitalist & Ann:
You guys are approaching this issue with very different but wholly understandable perspectives. To be politically incorrect, I’d even say they exemplify stereotypical differences in how men and women interpret information and the world. Apologies if either of you is not the gender I just presumed.
I’m going to avoid trying to label each person’s arguments but I do see TrueCapitalist’s argument being very much about absolutes whereas Ann’s have very relativist tones. I think it might be interesting for either of you to consider that when responding to each other.
The funny thing is that I think both of you are actually more in agreement than disagreement about how to operate in this world but your professed theory and interpretations are foreign to each other. It’s like two vastly different ways of describing the same thing.
…
Holy shit, it has become an economics class.
BTW, I’m always amused by Americans who envy European socialism, unaware as they are that many Europeans hate the higher rates of unemployment and (arguably) lower productivity that such socialism entails. That said, the United States is FAR from a capitalist system, itself very socialist. The easiest generalization is to present the American model vs. the European model as two systems that straddle the middle but are on opposite sides…kinda like the Democrats and Republicans IN PRACTICE (not theory, so unless you understand this, please don’t jump on it, Ann).
I think Ann is preoccupied with “oh, the poor helpless suffering children” and forgetting that these kids are compelled to do what they must to, as TrueCapitalist argues, survive and even help support the families they left behind but still love. I really do not think anyone fails to understand an empathize or sympathize with how much it sucks to be these poor kids.
Yet, wasn’t it Ann that argued that not all men are born equal? Life is incredibly unfair and there is no perfect system that will assure perfect equality (closer to Euro-socialism) or perfect equality of opportunity (closer to what America professes to strive in offering). While TrueCapitalist saying it is partly the poor’s fault for being poor sounds incredibly heartless, I think we should think of it as: We cannot change the fact that we were born into poverty or in situations of less opportunity but we CAN control to the best of our ability to do whatever we can to improve our lot and situation. If we fail to do so, then yes, part of the reason we are poor is because we couldn’t change ourselves or our situations.
This does not mean society shouldn’t try to help people out, its just a simple logic exercise. You either understand this or you don’t. I really hope I didn’t just open up a philosophical can of worms…
Kai:
I absolutely agree with your statement -
“This does not mean society shouldn’t try to help people out, its just a simple logic exercise.
I never at any time suggest or demand that all people should be able to own cars, live in fancy houses, afford a high price education. Making under-age children work in dangerous conditions is the most basic violation of protection required in any civilized society for children. China is no longer the destitute country it once of and not the sick man in Asia. Is it unreasonable to expect more out of the government on this issue?
As far as Socialism goes, there are many forms yet in Europe. The most successful in terms of citizens satisfaction are found in Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I travel to Europe often and have colleagues there with whom we socialize. I have heard conversations about paying too much tax and welfare mothers. In the end, when they compare themselves to U.S. and see that their less fortunately relatives are well care for by the government, they agree it is the price they have to pay. Denmark happens to have one with the highest standard of living in the world. We all wish to be able to keep more money in our pockets, myself included. I believe China can do better in terms of protecting children. I believe children from upper class city dwellers families have too much and peasant children have nothing. All civilized societies allow children to go to school for free. China managed it during the Communist era, but decide to abandon the policy altogether to get rich quick. The same happened to bare-foot doctors. It was one of the success stories of a poor nation in terms of healthcare for the masses. Now, China has no healthcare for the majority unless one has money. Even Fidel Castro is able to offer one of the best socialized healthcare in the world for his people. Sadly, I believe CCP threw away the baby with the bath water in her quest for quick economic development. Personally i wonder what is the long term impact on the forgotten people in China. Will their struggle against poverty may some day ferment into anger, frustration, melcontenment and social chaos. That was the way it was through centuries of Chinese history.
@ Ann:
Actually, I think China still very much is the destitute country. Remember that one Chinese leader that said some must get rich first? 10 brownie points if you remember who it is. China has very big social problems (not to mention all the economic and political problems that are interconnected), not least of which is having an enormous population. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect the Chinese government to do more to protect children from exploitative labor practices, but I do think it is unreasonable to expect the government to not have any problems with it given the context of the situation.
That situational context is partly what TrueCapitalist is trying to convey to you. There is heart-rending poverty in China and life is cheap. Corruption is rampant and part of the reason is not just sheer greed but also abject fear of poverty leading to people securing for one’s own what they can through even questionable means.
All of this is worthy of contempt insofar as they are selfish and inhuman towards others. Bosses who mistreat child laborers, government officials who turn a blind eye, etc. all deserve to be called the worst of names in hopes of shaming them to do what most actually know to be right or fair in their hearts but have desensitized themselves to or rationalized away. And while we work on negative reinforcement, we have to figure out how we can generate more wealth and the mechanisms for putting that wealth to good use towards whatever philanthropic goals that wealth is assigned to.
Maybe it is opening more schools or hiring more teachers to provide better education. Maybe it is fostering investment and development so that parents have better work opportunities that allow their children to go to school instead of having to help their basic social unit (family) survive. Maybe it is for socialization programs that teach people to avoid graft, corruption, and breaking the law. There is so much to do and everything has different pros and cons, not to mention tons of people with different ideas and agendas, especially in the political system.
I believe children from upper class city dwellers families have too much and peasant children have nothing
Be that it may, but now we’re going back to the political and philosophical conundrum of who ought to decide what for whom. Can you honestly say you feel 100% comfortable with others dictating your wealth? Or do you think it is an inherent right of your individuality to choose how you will use what is your’s? There are hundreds of millions of people on this planet who will look at your mere ability to go online and type out a response to me as you having far too much compared to themselves. How are you going to solve the problem of them demanding that you, even you, give your money and lower your lifestyle so that they may live more comfortably?
Those are the tough questions.
All civilized societies allow children to go to school for free.
I think you’re taking what you have for granted. That comment sounds a lot like Americans cavorting around the world damning developing nations for not providing the same rights and privileges to their citizens that Americans enjoy through sheer virtue of being the world’s richest nation. Ann, I’m not saying no one wants better for these people but when resources are limited, many people, governments, countries must make compromises. Those compromises may not always be good and there will be gross inefficiencies, but that’s life. Americans put up with George W. Bush because they subscribe to the principles of their bi-partisan republic with democratic characteristics. They made a huge compromise to uphold a political ideology…just as millions starved upholding the “Communist” ideology during the Great Leap Forward.
I sympathize with your frustrations with the world but I have a feeling you’re quick to be prescriptive with regards to these issues. The danger of not acknowledging and understanding the unique problems of (for example) the Chinese situation is crossing the line from wanting them to improve to condemning them for not being able to improve at the rate you desire. When the later happens, it is like overusing negative reinforcement when raising children or interacting with peers. You become so annoying, even self-righteous, that others no longer think you honestly give a shit about them.
China managed it during the Communist era, but decide to abandon the policy altogether to get rich quick. The same happened to bare-foot doctors. It was one of the success stories of a poor nation in terms of healthcare for the masses.
I think you need to follow Chinese news more closely. Education is largely free for children in China. But, I think the point you are missing here with TrueCapitalist is that even if there is free education, many of these children and families must forgo that education for immediate survival, hence going to work. This is why he keeps presenting this as either working or dying. It is not as easy as saying “well, make education free and then there won’t be child labor anymore.”
Bare-foot doctors? You’re kidding me, right? The Communists hurt the standards of health-care in China far more than they helped it, simply by scaring every intellectual out of the country by “struggling against” any who wasn’t fast enough to high-tail it out of here back when Mao took over. I would be pretty damn sure you’d scoff at the idea of seeing the average bare-foot doctor you’re referring to. Health-care for the masses maybe, but I’m not sure it was good health-care. Being able to purchase the morning-after pill for less than 20 kuai in China has probably done far more for the Chinese society’s economic and health situation than the bare-foot doctors ever did.
Okay, at this point, I feel I’ve followed you off-topic far enough. I feel you want for China what America’s wealth provides for Americans (or European wealth provides for Europe). That isn’t going to happen until China has equivalent wealth and means. I’m afraid you don’t quite understand those facts of life. I’ll stop here.
Socialism ideally should allow for the establishment of powerful trade unions which should protect worker’s rights.
Also, the state should create several regulatory agencies to deal with child protection, employment protection and the police should be in charge of public safety as well as the well being of minors.
EXCUSES, EXCUSES, that’s all I am getting, Chine is not as rich as America. Who say protecting children from exploitive Mafia type bosses is not a reachable goal for a country as tightly run as China. CCP puts out plenty of spies on its own people who are activists with a social conscience. I am saddened to see how Chinese are willing to excuse and accept this sort of practice as incurable and inevitable. They have defined China for me for the next thousand years. China is a nation of quick compromisers on evil because they are the ones who have escaped. Child labor is evil, tofu school builders are evil, corrupt officials are evil, mobster like police are evil and government that tolerates such condition is evil.
Ann is a Falun Gong shill just to let everyone know. You can read it in the grade school logic that’s employed, whereby things are viewed in black and white terms (evil), and the many generalizations used.
@ Kai
What tags do you use for emphasizing and quote etc in comments?
@ Ann
“Who say protecting children from exploitive Mafia type bosses is not a reachable goal for a country as tightly run as China. CCP puts out plenty of spies on its own people who are activists with a social conscience”
That’s probably the ideal CCP wants but not reality otherwise there wouldn’t be any problems in law enforcement. I agree with Kai. There are no easy solutions to this problem without a huge shift of living standard of poor families. You can “clean up” things like child labor with a Great Leap type movement but bad things will come back, just like the reoccurring of prostitution after China’s reform in 80s.
So sad. Why don”t people think about what the cost is when they want the deal from China? Out of sight, out of mind I guess.
@ USTCer:
I use the italics and bold tags usually. [i] and [b] – replace brackets with uh…those “greater/lesser than” signs used in HTML. You know what I mean? I noticed “blockquote” works too after someone else used them in one of these recent comment threads. I might start using those.
I suggest ignoring Ann from here on out. She’s gone off the deep end and is now like Mario with a invincibility star. I’m willing to accept that she is indeed from China but I reckon she’s been out of China for far too long. Even complete foreigners have a much better grasp of China’s difficulties than she does and have written far more well-reasoned, intelligent, rational commentary/critiques than she has.
Did you notice how she was bitching and whining about people calling the arrogant Jiaotong girl names, arguing incessantly for everyone to look under the “superficial” surface and consider the “deeper” reasons behind why that Jiaotong girl is an idiot? Yet, here, she’d rather ignore all of the deeper, fundamental, structural issues of poverty and socio-economics and instead just call everyone names, categorically accuse everyone of being evil.
Everyone has their hypocritical moments, but Ann had the fastest turnaround time I’ve seen in awhile. Wow, such quickness.
Bottom line, I’ve come to feel that she embarrasses both her Chinese roots and her American sensibilities. I’m not saying all of her underlying concepts/thoughts are completely wrong, but she certainly exhibits a poor ability to engage in reasoned discourse. Most people have the ability to read new/opposing information, understand it, and then reconcile such information with their pre-existing belief set before again opening their mouths. I’m afraid Ann is not quite content to heed anything but that which fits into her preconceptions.
I’m not sure if I should be disappointed or just amused.
Kai:
I am gettin it! People like you operate from a flexible moral code, or perhaps an absent moral grouding. Everything is compromisable, and subject to tinkering, excuses and gestures. I operate from a solid moral principal, on child exploitaton and others, that morals is the absolute foundation for social legal and personal behaviors. All civilized societies in modern era do not condone child exploitation. UN has charters that forbids it. NGO’s work towards eliminating it.
In your frame of arguement and that of TrueCapitalist, girls as young as 6 sold to brothels is an acceptable trade by the destitute parents’. Boy soldiers with the promise of two meals by militias in Africa is an acceptable child employment strategy. Isn’t there a deinition of child exploitation that is forbidden in your book of morals?
@Kai
Ann believes it is okay for poor people to steal from their employers “because they need to eat” but it is wrong for poor people to work to earn their money.
And she says I have a flexible moral code?
HAH.
Quoting Kai:
“Ann believes it is okay for poor people to steal from their employers “because they need to eat” but it is wrong for poor people to work to earn their money. ”
I did not say it is okay for poor people to steal, rather it is a common phoenomenon as a result of destitution in poor countries. With China’s recent economic development, you are using an aged old arguement that no longer fits China perfectly. If China wants to join the civilized world, China and the Chinese who are not living the poverty will have to own up to the responsiblity of making China a society of conscience, and not graft and exploitation. Would’nt you think this is a moral imperative and an achievable goal? But, you and the others who think alike on this issue as yet to answer my question, “When it is not permisslble to use children for exploitation? Do you have a bottom line, an absolute moral standing on this issue?
Hu Jia is a hero who stands for a high standard on moral issues. He deservedly was honored with the Sahkarov Humanitarian Prize.
@ Ann:
No, you raised hell when people tried to explain how poverty compels poor people to work in conditions you personally find unacceptable but then you made excuses for poor people stealing because they have to eat.
No one here WANTS children to work in conditions we find unacceptable. People are only explaining why this phenomenon exists. You have failed to differentiate between your own inane rants and what people are actually discussing.
Some questions for you:
1. What age old argument am I using? Let’s see if you’re actually reading or if you’re just really good at using the straw man fallacy.
2. Who here is suggesting that China be a society of graft and exploitation? Please provide appropriate citations and context.
3. Everyone here thinks alleviating poverty and improving Chinese society is a moral imperative and achievable goal. We just think you’re an idiot who has no idea of how to “achieve” that goal other than stomping your feet and insisting that it all magically “change.”
Ann, your problem is that you’re arguing in your own head. You’re not actually listening to other people. Instead, you’ve conjured up some enemy and are raging against that enemy, oblivious to what the hell is actually being said. That is the straw man fallacy. Look it up.
As for you feeling compelled to bring up Hu Jia, I’m beginning to think you have a martyr complex. I think most of us here disagree with the government locking up Hu Jia, but I think you have some misconceptions about who he is and what he has actually accomplished. Please go ahead and read this: Hu Jia wins Sakharov Prize for Freedom. Again, doesn’t justify what the government has done but it does suggest Hu Jia may not be as mind-blowingly heroic as you apparently think he is. There’s a line between being a force for good and becoming narcissistic. Forget what the Chinese government thinks but take into account what his peers think, as they have far more experience and knowledge of what he’s done than you or I.
Quoting the Hu Jia winning the Sakharov peace prize:
“But my friends, one of whom works at the United Nations, challenged me about what Hu has actually done aside from draw attention to himself and get himself arrested.”
This written by a Chinese source and the writer never revealed the identity of his friends who work at U.N. This is not the protocol of a bonifide reporter would be allowed to use, quoting without naming the source.
I would dispute the truthfulness of this story. Neverthless, I would say it is a very piece of propaganda to seed doubt about Hu Jia. I would not think the European Parliament would let themselves be the laughing ass of the whole world in rewarding the prize to a nobody. They must have made the decision after the vetting process and checking the facts. It is amazing how clever the Chinese propaganda engine is.
Ann, please respond to #1, 2, and 3. Don’t be a baby and try to ignore them hoping you won’t have to own up to your own offensive mistakes.
Re: Hu Jia
HAH, I knew you’d pull some kind of bullshit like that.
You’ve missed the point of Richard’s post (another one about Hu Jia here – please read before responding). The point is not to vilify Hu Jia but merely to ask everyone to introspect and ask themselves if Hu Jia has really ACCOMPLISHED much for the causes he promotes AND if he deserved the prize MORE SO than others who have also made significant contributions and promotion for human rights.
If you want to an idiot about it, fine, let’s see you produce names, citations, or references to what Hu Jia has accomplished. Since you have several times now upheld Hu Jia as an exemplary “moral individual,” please SUBSTANTIATE your confident appraisal of him. While you’re at it, remind yourself that no one here thinks Hu Jia is evil or anything, nor is anyone saying he hasn’t done good things, just that maybe what he has done is not exactly the most deserving of such a prestigious prize.
So, come on, Ann, please SHOW US why you think Hu Jia is so deserving. To win a prize involves QUALIFYING for it, right? So the burden of proof for why he deserves it is upon you, as his ardent supporter who thinks it is somehow categorically wrong to ask whether or not he deserved the prize above others or wonder about just how much he’s actually accomplished.
You’re the one who is demanding names and proof, right? Don’t be a hypocrite and shirk out of this.
By the way, it is atrociously revealing of your discrimination that you somehow tried to dismiss Richard’s post as a “Chinese source.” Oh god, SO WHAT IF HE IS WRITING FROM CHINA? Hu Jia is FROM CHINA TOO. HE WROTE FROM CHINA TOO! GASP! I bet you even thought Richard was, you know, Chinese, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you knew he’s actually not Chinese and only meant to call him into doubt for writing FROM China. See how generous I am?
Now, stop trying to dismiss others based upon whether they are Chinese or not and actually address the points in their arguments. In Richard’s case, please tell us why you think it Hu Jia was more deserving of the prize than others. Please tell us why it is somehow wrong to question if his actual human right’s accomplishments are not as impressive as others. LEARN TO ADDRESS THE POINTS.
Holy shit, you’re such an idiot. Richard’s blog is often criticized to high hell for being so critical of the Chinese government and you’re sitting there accusing him of being part of the Chinese propaganda apparatus? ARE YOU SERIOUS?
他妈的脑残得要死！没见过你这么SB的牛B！
Oh, wait, my favorite line:
I would not think the European Parliament would let themselves be the laughing ass of the whole world in rewarding the prize to a nobody. They must have made the decision after the vetting process and checking the facts.
That’s some amazing blind-faith you have there, Ann. Do political motivations mean nothing to you? You know, those same political motivations that let the American government (Congress included) become the laughing ass of the whole world in invading Iraq to overthrow Saddamn Hussein (something you’ve professed to be upset about). The American government must have made the decision after the vetting process and checking the facts…
RIGHT?
You’re so blatantly self-righteous, discriminatory, and hypocritical it is embarrassing that we’re the same species and I could spawn minions with you (presuming you’re really a woman).
The Iraq War has been considered by most Americans as a Bush’s military adventure. We had not trusted Bush’s international policy, I personally as well from the very beginning. In terms of the Sakharov prize, there is nothing to be gained and a whole lot to lose in terms of Chinese EU relations. I don’t see any ulterior hidden motive here as China had asserted. Besides, it is only a symbolism, although an honorable one. One does not have to consider the consequence of the act so seriously. China is the only country that objected vehemently the selection of receipient of the prize – Hu Jia. One wonders why the majority of the world approves Hu Jia to be the worthwhile recepient if he is such a deceipt.
.
Bush cannot wage war without funding from Congress. Or do you not understand basic fundamentals of American government? Congress represents the people. YOU, in part, FAILED to stop Congress from waging the Iraq War. That is the ESSENCE of DEMOCRACY, where EVERY citizen is responsible for the country’s government.
No one said Hu Jia is a deceit. Stop with the straw man fallacies already.
Let me ask you again, is it wrong to question whether or not Hu Jia deserves the prize more than other human rights activists who may have accomplished much more?
A simple “yes” or “no” would be sufficient.
Stop being spineless and get your principles straight before you open your mouth or lay hand to keyboard.
Well its hard to judge isnt it? It is wrong for the factory to exploit these children’s desire to work due to poverty, but to stop them from hiring them would also mean that their family will lose a source of income. What they need to do is set up a legislation where there is some sort of basic salary for these kids and also some sort of working hours to allow them time to go to school to improve their future.
Hmmm, went to look at the comments on Netease, the page has been removed…
To all,
there are only $100, and your parents take $99, how many leave there?
they need bread b/4 they go to school.
what do they do after they graduate? as a whole, there are still needs many unskilled workers? right?
if could, we go back to see what Mao had done for China, we will see there is no child labors.
what i understand about the Ding says ” let someone richer first” is meaning “make someone poorer first”.
Mychina,
your post:
1. does not address any relevant issue, in fact it
2. does not address any issue whatsoever or make any kind of argument
3. has so many grammar errors that it makes my head hurt to read it
please, before you next post, can you:
1. read the article
2. read the previous comments
3. think of a point you’d like to make
4. get a second grader to proof read your post for grammar and spelling
thanks a bunch
@ MyChina:
Mao: Everyone will be equal, equally poor.
Deng: Let some get richer first, but yes, some will still be poor.
@ TrueCapitalist:
You must’ve be kicking yourself after hitting that submit button, huh? ;)
This is sooo fucking stupid keeping all this children in those places the companys and bosses have to be fucking dicks what the fuck is wrong with them they fucking morons. so sad so sad
You are right. I am poor at grammar and spelling, but it is better than before. I am still working on my grammar and spelling.
If you are “TrueCapitalist”, then you only look on the costs and profits; there is no child-labor, there is only labor.
if we compare with USA today, we are still poor. what we feel we are getting rich is only when we compare with our past. if this is true, then we are not equally “poor”, when we compare with the begin of the new china.
sorry for the G & S.
i think if these kids stop working there wont be anyone to give food to there poor parents, im pretty sure they too wanted to go school and study like the rest of the kids, think a little, if you stop them there work, then you should prepare to give them food and there needs as well otherwise these kids become prostitutes and robbers in the near future.
i cant fucking believe this shit
theses mother fuckers need to have there balls re-attached
stupid bitches
hi everybody i hate china!
Anything to make my Ipod cost less!
Why the hell does the WORLD care what happens in China?
It’s their fucking country let them run it the way they want.