WARNING: Photos below may be graphic.
From KDS:
Kittens abused/mutilated to death, bodies laid before the mother
On the 11th within a Kunming Panlong District neighborhood, the four kittens of an adopted stray cat were abused to death. According to the family that adopted the stray cat, on the morning of the 11th when they heard the cat’s tragic cries, they rushed downstairs to discover this stray cat’s four kittens abused to death, and even placed in front of the mother cat. The kittens’ bodies were covered with bullet holes, with blood all over. One of the kittens had its neck tied with a rope and elongated, its chest cut open, heart exposed, while the other three kittens’ heads were stepped on. According to this journalist’s observation, the bullet holes on the kitten’s bodies were caused by a metal toy gun. It is reckoned that during the night of the 10th, someone used a toy gun to beat the kitten black and blue, so that it was unable to escape, before continuing to abuse/mutilate it to death, and intentionally put them beside the mother cat.
The KDS post did not include the year and month: 2006 April.
These NetEase & Xinhua news articles includes some more information:
The poor mother cat kept licking the kittens, hoping it would revive the kittens. Crying, the women who adopted the cat were unable to speak, hoping that the cat abuser can be found.
Comments from KDS:
次苏盖赤佬:
**, YP are truly perverse!
There will be retribution!
有卵泡么驴:
屁屁黑pipihei:
Deviant, [whoever did this] definitely are not psychologically normal, and putting them in front of the mother cat! Are they still human? ***!!!
古老肉:
pal:
This kind of person will be reborn for his next life in North Korea’s countryside.
阿:
How were these photographs taken? Could they have been taken by the cat abuser? Photographing this scene is very difficult.
雷氏菊花露:
There will be retribution in this life, the kittens’ souls will haunt them!
6in1:
****!!! How can there be someone like this!!! Eating pigs, cows, even dogs is one thing, but how could one intentionally destroy life!!!
爱拼才会赢:
Those who do not have love for little animals will likewise not have love for humans. This kind of person will grow up to become a murderer.
猪肉浦好切:
YP thinking is indeed perverted and frightening~
飞呀泡泡:
I logged in especially to curse this beast~ deserves a bad death~
寂寞捕手:
I regret coming in.
firefox_3:
I reckon it was because the cat disturbed the peace, so the nearby residents bear the most suspicion.
今晚我做饭:
Is this something a person can do??? Picking on a life that is many times weaker and smaller is very satisfying? Truly CN NB inhuman! In America this kind of person would go to prison!
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Kitten Killers Return 
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Spoiled Child Slaps & Chokes Mother In Public For Toy 
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Yunnan Girl Savagely Abused By Aunt While Parents Work 
Wow that is pretty horrific. And I have to agree with the guy who said that in America the person who did this would go to prison. Rightly so IMHO
whoever did this deserves a horrific death and rot in hell.
why dont they give cats justice??
maybe china is following the trend of america
Torturing and murdering little animals is one of the classic signs of being a sociopathic murderer. I hope they catch the bastard and lock him/her up before they do something like that to a human.
where’s the power of Chinese netizen detectives?? find who the killers are and employ some heiguis to r*pe their asses.
isn’t this where serial killers start?
That’s fucking sucks. WTF?
i m speechless,only god knows,the person deserves slow poisoning
are there not many rivers and sacks around?
to bad for Karma..
I’m getting tearful as well as I am a cat own myself! Even though the mother cat isn’t human I can see the crying. Those demons who’ve commit such acts are no better than the Japanese Imperial army in WW2!
at Lu
yeah! and you should have added not better than the red guards in the cultural revolution.
“Chinese college students do have many mental problems in the face of an increasingly competitive society,” she told China Daily yesterday.”
Lu Shizhen, president of the youth development academy at the China Youth University of Political Sciences
“According to the website for the Beijing municipal health bureau, the number of Chinese students with serious psychological problems has seen a rapid growth in recent years, with conditions including obsessive compulsive disorder, clinical depression, anxiety and hostility.”
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-05/25/content_7937615.htm
having ocd in china, that really sucks….
Booooo! Boooo! Sobs! Sobs!
Inhumane Cat Killer! Boooooo!
How can a Chinese person do something so vile? He’s not human! He deserves to die! Doesn’t he care about cats and their feelings?
Oh wait…
http://www.grrafix.com/i-photo-story-3.html
I do admit Meat is Murder.
However, killing for food is far from killing and torturing for pleasure.
The nature of the first is to eat, perhaps even taking pleasure in it. But the pleasure is not derived from the suffering of other beings.
The nature of the latter one is sadistic.
Judging from the article, the cat were given a slash across the throat, a coup de grâce. Its the best they could given those conditions.
How about skinning them while they are still alive like mentioned in the article I’ve linked to?
Does that count?
As long as Chinese people don’t give a flying fuck about cats, they can kill them for pleasure or for food, not much difference in my opinion. Animals are just toys in their eyes.
How about the bus trips in Northen China in Harbin, where they feed live live stock to the tigers? Is a Chicken less valuable than a cat? The behavior is the same, having fun with “animals”, the crowds is happy, the crowd giggle, the herd is a bunch of backwards fucktards.
I really wonder who are the animals there…
Fucking brainless lemmings.
http://www.travelchinatour.com/jim-china-travel-blog/travelogue-by-cities/harbin-siberian-tiger-park.html
I’ve watched animals play with, kill, and consume other animals on the Serengeti – is it sadistic? I wouldn’t say I “enjoyed” it as much as reveled in the raw power and ferocity found in nature. I think the ‘concept’ behind feeding siberian tigers at the tiger park is to watch their power in doing what they naturally do – kill and consume other animals. Those tigers are pretty fat, anyways, not exactly the same breed as wild tigers. Plus, they kill easy pray, it’s not nearly as awe inspiring as I’m sure watching one hunt in wild would be.
There’s a HUGE difference between watching nature (or even *staging* natural events) for the experience of an observer, than fucking murdering and torturing helpless kittens, and going so far as to leave them infront of their mother to let her experience a different kind of pain. I can’t believe you have such ill logic and jaded morality to even begin this kind of argument.
That’s a very sad photo-essay on grrafix.com. Thanks for the link, although it’s very graphic for anyone with delicate sensibilities.
DWR
Almost forgot, it’s even funnier with a cow!
Giggles giggles! Take a pic uncle Chong (V sign and puffy cheeks in front of the bloody carcass)!
http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/241460.htm
Lee Chak Lam, of Hong Kong, and his travel-mates Lau Chi Shan and Poon Pin Shan, of Shanghai, pooled their money with three strangers they met at the park to purchase a sheep.
“It was killed in a second,” says a wide-eyed Lee. He believes it was money well spent.
Sounds like great fun to me.
Now shut the fuck up about a bunch of fucking dead kittens, and clean your fucking house. It’s fucking dirty and it stinks!
I’m not defending killing for the joy of killing, I think its atrocious as well.
But sadistic behavior such as these is not an indigenous chinese concept. I believe Michael Vick is still in jail. So I don’t see why pointing the finger at 1.3 billion people all together is justified.
I curse you family.
I am ashamed of living in Kunming when I hear things like this but it happens everywhere. People just couldn’t give a rats ass about animals here in China.
I hope this guy gets caught but sadly I can’t see how that should happen unless he tells someone about it and it somehow gets out. Torturing and killing small animals is the first step for psycopaths and serial killers which is another reason to get this guy and -well,, string him up might be too harsh- but at least teach him a lesson he won’t forget. Check out the biographies of notorious serial killers,, an incredible high amount of them started out burning cats alive, gutting puppies and whatever they could get their filthy hands on. I wrote an article on Richard Kuklinski once,, nasty fella indeed.
Is the story from April 2006 or recent?
I don’t know if it is a Chinese gene to abuse cats. We have these psychotic serial cat killers in Singapore too and they were all Chinese. Recently a kitten had its body cut off, leaving behind its limps and head. In another case, the psychopath cut open a pregnant cat’s stomach and took the foetus.
Culling of cats is state sanctioned. An old psycho personally sent 300 cats to their deaths and was interviewed by the newspapers.
And get this! It is against the law to keep cats in your home in Singapore.
I guess if they find out that you have a cat in your house in Singapore, they will cane you on the balls until death ensues right?
Death penalty maybe? A cat in a house, what a serious offense.
Get a fucking life and welcome to 2009, fucktards of this world.
Well think of it this way, cats are much easier to abuse than dogs. Sickos like this whom abused little critters at night when no one notice probably doesn’t have much guts to take any risk anyways. So they find the easier target,killing little kittens to satisfy their weak hollow shell.
While i agree there are serial cat killers in singapore but i also seen alot kind souls who feeds stray cats too.
Culling of cats? state sanctioned?
The only culling i seen is birds like crows and very very very rarely stray dogs. Strays cats are more likely to be sterilised (those with a hole mark on one of their ears) which is done by the SPCA.
Ya and get this! Its against the law to keep cats in HDB flats (no1 would bother to enforce this here)but its permitted to keep in landed/ private properties.
It’s pretty obvious you don’t know what’s going on in your own country.
Nope i live in a different singapore from you.
U just write statements with no hint of any in-depth informantion about the country.
Sorry but you do give me the impression u r the typical singaporean ‘fenqing’ (difference from the chinese is that they are blindly anti-singapore).
It’s pretty obvious you dont WANT to know wats going on in your own country
“he has been trapping stray cats since the 1990s, using his own cages and those provided by the Agri-Food and Veterinary Authority (AVA).
He then hands the cats over to AVA to be put down.
‘I stopped counting after I trapped around 300 cats,’ said Mr Tan,”
http://www.tnp.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,192753,00.html
Moron, which part of the above article do you not understand?
You said:
“The only culling i seen is birds like crows and very very very rarely stray dogs. Strays cats are more likely to be sterilised (those with a hole mark on one of their ears) which is done by the SPCA.”
My reply:
“Some 5,000 dogs were put down last year via lethal injections delivered by the AVA and SPCA. Cats culled double the number of dogs.”
Source: Sundays Times. http://www.catwelfare.org/drupal/node/968
I guess 5,000 dogs and 10,000 cats being put down is “very very very rarely” to you.
“The AVA stopped its cat sterilisation programme in 2003 after five years as it was still getting 5,000 complaints a year about strays.”
Source: Sundays Times. http://www.catwelfare.org/drupal/node/968
You are certainly living in a different Singapore from me. You are 6 years behind time, LOL.
How? Want to be spoon fed more proof, and more “in-depth” analysis like why the HDB ban on cats even though rarely enforced is preventing cats from getting a home?
Or want to be typical Singaporean, die die can’t admit it when proven wrong because of “face”, and have to resort to fist fights?
Oh yes, Mr Tan help to cull cats, he is wacko physco cat killer. He cuts their throats and then.. wait he send them to be put down in a humane method? No no this is SG, the govt culls animals by hang them on hooks and cut off their head wit a hunting knife.
Culling is state approved here in this evil, tight ass country and…wat? other countries govt also cull their local animals population? Wait, its differnt here,the state loves culling animals, 5k dogs and 10k cats a year and .. No no we dont import them, our country may be small but we will never run out strays. But there are some kind morons who feed and sterilising stray cats with their money.
No problem, we stop our sterilise program so people thinks we dont sterilise anymore. In fact, the local population contributes most of the strays by abandoning their pets, lol they pay for the animals and we get to kill them. Also we have ban people from owning cats in their home! Everyday we sent 5000 officals out to search for them.
Yours truly,
Singapore AVA Henchman
Dear overseas chinese,
U are so right, only singaporeans need to be spoon feed.
When u post statements in foreign forums where probably no1 knows much or lived in SG they knows wat are u trying to put across. I am such a ‘frog in the well’.
Sorry for making u lose face and getting into a fistfight at a war of words in a forum. In fact, i just recieved a laywer letter. I got into a barfight where i actually punch some wimpy fellow singaporean with my real fist on his face. ‘Sob’ he sueing me for manslaughter and insulting his 18 generation of ancestors. Wat can i say? Singapore Boleh!
Btw a friendly reminder, Jet Li + very rich folks + govt officals have been spotted play live GTA on the street of singapore. Be careful when u walk on the roads. 30 roadkills = 1month jailtime, tat is ‘peanuts’ to them. Their GTA game will reset 1month later.
What gibberish are you writing? Stick to the topic. LOL.
FUCK THAT”S FUCKED> (@ GRUDGE LINK).
HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU DO THAT???
That’s just nasty. Although…that is pretty much what happens when it comes to eating meat.
We are all *Satan’s children. Believe it.
*Satan: Multi-dimensional infinite being in control of our reality. No joke.
SATAN’s SIGNS ARE EVERYWHERE> I NO JOKING.
SATAN IS REAL.
SWEET SWEET LUCIFER!
did the Columbine shooter used to do this in their youth? God, I hope there won’t be school shooting 10 years down the road…
There would be shootings in schools right now but they don’t have any guns…
Never understood that to the tell the truth… if they just let people in china buy guns there would not be any overpopulation problem anymore…
welcome to china.
nothing new to see here.
This is the most cruelty action to animals. It makes me question if we humans are any different in terms of values from animals. This behavior is everywhere, not only in China.
My condolensces go the owner of the cat. I hope that she still has faith in people knowing that there are many people out there who thinks this type of action is criminal.
I hate to agree wholeheartedly with Grudge, but as a foreigner wo has lived all ove the world (the past 2 in China), I must admit that on the whole there is a definite disconnect between most Chinese people and animals in general. If I had to guess it is primarily a result of a social structure where the genral population feels powerless, pwerless to choose their jobs, their universities, even their spouses. When I asked a group of university students if they would marry someone they loved even if their parents did not want them to, 90% said they would not marry the person they love. As a professor of sociology and psychology, the general lack of concern for animals and the subsequent cruelty to animals is primarily the result of the need to feel that some aspect of one’s life has control. Since they cannot control the government, or teachers, or parents, the only remaining avenue to display their power and ability to control is by torturing the weak – the lowly animals that cannot defend themselves. You need to look at your society and the cause of this type of behavior as the rate is increasing.
Uh… I like the Freud stuff too but aren’t we getting a little too creative, here? You ever been in a slaughter house? Ever fished? Hunted? I fully condemn the actions of the cat murderer, but when it comes to what happens at Chinese meat markets, I’m more akin to believe that the outrage here is the product of the sheltered nature of modern, urban man, who buys his meat from grocery stores and never has to see it cut from the body of an animal, much less kill said animal, than anything particularly wrong with China.
Blood sports like bullfighting, dogfighting, and cockfighting were popular all the way up to the modern age, and in some parts of Europe, they still are. Growing up on a farm probably desensitizes you to a lot of the stuff that goes on behind that piece of steak you just had for dinner. Backwards? Sure, if you consider being a farmer backwards. But unless you’re a vegetarian, I should like to hear less self-righteous pomposity towards people who work in these industries so that your pampered ass can go out and buy meat by the pound.
Saying that “it’s 2009″ really misses the point. It’s groups like PETA that brought us to where we are today, with respect to animal rights. Until China develops its own version of PETA (or PETA expands there in force), it’s unlikely to change.
It’s China. There is little to no respect for human life here, animals don’t have a chance.
Wow,
We have a serial killer in the making.
China needs to create a psychological institution or China is going to mentally crack, if it haven’t already.
Now, I need to walk around outside knowing, that this sick pervert is around.
Never leave home without protection folks.
What is really funny to me, is how this guy probably a big coward in real life. He probably has no life a takes it out on kittens.
Some of you people that are trying to justify him are dumbasses…
He clearly did this act to watch something die with pleasure. To me, it doesn’t matter if it was a kitten or a pig. Killing someone’s babies and putting them in front of them is horrid. Not even animals do that.
Humans are not animals and this act proves it.
Oh and I hate how people talk about slaughter houses. I lived on a farm and saw slaughter houses. The goal is food and the kill the animal as fast as possible. The butcher doesn’t just sit there, eat popcorn and enjoy the murdering baby animals.
Screw this guy, I hope I meet him.
You say him… remember the high heeled kitten crushed from Guangdong? Some women are fucked up too…
Sadistic is the word… however, dangerous is a much more serious word.
The women who adopted the cat should be VERY worried for their own safety.
This is some Friday the 13th shit…
5,000 years of “civilization” at it’s best.
The best part about it are all the apologists here doing their best to deflect the responsibility of the matter by bringing up farms and slaughter-houses.
Farms and slaughter-houses, as a general rule, do not murder animals for pleasure. They do it for food. That’s nature.
Killing animals for fun is not nature. It’s sick. Anyone who fails to understand this is part of the problem.
Why can’t “glorious” China and her 5,000 years of “civilization” rise above this kind of behavior? Why can’t those who take another life for pleasure be punished?
Michael Vick (the former star QB for my favorite football team) was paid over $100 million USD to play football. You know what happened to him after the American public found out that he watched dogs fight for fun?
He went to prison. You know what job he’s doing now? He’s a construction worker, making $10 USD an hour, hoping someday to get a second chance.
Where are you, “glorious” China? You’ve been around for 5,000 years and you still can’t seem to find basic respect for human life. You can’t even snap out of your apathy long enough to punish those in your government or your community who trounce law and life openly.
But what can should we expect? You don’t even have basic human rights in China. How the fuck could we expect animals to have them.
China, this is why you will never be a world power. This is why you are 5,000 years old and are still nothing more than a “developing country.”
Apologists unite. Come one, come all. But the facts remain. What is said can never be unsaid, what is done can never be undone. The truth speaks for itself.
And speaks out another Mac-Book College Liberal who thinks Liberalism is the epitome of human psyche, morality, and thought.
Typical response from someone who cannot grasp the basic concept of human rights, or the inhumanity that comes along with torturing the innocent for pleasure.
Anyone else?
Strange how one persons actions reflect the total of a society…
Strange how no one praises the Chinese family for adopting a stray pregnant cat, something that everyone knows is a lot of trouble to maintain and obviously from the kindness of their hearts.
And also strange how one example of a famous star can be used, when there is no famous star in this story, and even in America there is common animal and human abuse that is never resolved.
And also pretty strange is the fact that in America I never heard of any stories like this, yet in China a story like this is one of the most popular internet stories out there.
Are you sure your comment is the full picture? Or do you just hate without unbiased reason?
If you live in China, please GTFO.
(1)It’s not one person’s actions, Relative Truth. This kind of shit makes the news rounds every day here in China.
(2)The kind lady and her family are the minority here, not the majority. I’ve been in Shanghai for 2 years, my wife is Chinese.
If my wife, who was born and raised in China, can recognize and admit this problem, why can’t you? Why can’t others like you recognize this problem?
It’s because people like you are the problem. Rather than admit your problem, you deflect the issue, distort it, attack others who speak out against such inhumanity, yet offer no explanation or reconciliation to the fact at hand.
(3)I used a “famous star” as an example to show that, in the U.S., even the rich and famous are prosecuted for cruelty to animals.
The Chinese government burns dogs every day to control the “pet population.” People in rural provinces murder dogs wholesale because they are afraid the dog carries diseases. This is fact. Dispute it.
There is a gap between Americans and Chinese when it comes to respecting all life.
Yes, there are Americans who harm animals. But there are also laws to punish them for doing it. Someone, somewhere, cared enough for these animals to make a law, and to make sure that law carried weight.
Where is China?
(4)I live in China. Lived here for awhile. Living in a country doesn’t mean I have to be blind to the flaws. You guys can excuse the inhumanity all you want, you can harmonize every news story and spin it in every direction you want.
It doesn’t change the fact that, now, in China, there is no respect for life. Not for human life, not for life of any kind.
Get some fucking rights, make some fucking laws to protect those rights, have mercy and consideration for lifeforms lower on the evolotionary scale than yourself, and then you can deign to open your mouth about being a “great civilization.”
Until then, STFU.
Jeremiah,
1. Relative Truth’s comment about how one person’s actions are being used to generalize an entire society is not a denial of this “shit” making the rounds in the news every day in China. It’s about how unfair it is to generalize an entire society based upon a single person’s or a minority’s actions. Relative Truth is rightfully taking offense to you broadening this incident to justify your extended contempt for China as a whole. I’m pretty sure you understood the point Relative Truth (RT from here on out) was making, and I don’t think it was right of you to frame it as if RT was denying that this shit happens too often for all of our tastes.
2a. I don’t think you living in Shanghai for 2 years and having a Chinese wife substantiates your claim that this kind lady and her family are a minority and not the majority. If I claim the opposite, that the majority of Chinese people fully grasp and enjoy the concept of “pets” and generally recognize that dogs and cats are widely kept as pets for companionship, would me saying that I’m Chinese and have lived in China longer than you be sufficient to prove that my claim is more correct than your’s?
2b. Your wife recognizing and admitting that there is a problem of animal abuse in China does not mean she believes the majority of Chinese people are evil animal abusers, or that only a minority of Chinese people appreciate cats, dogs, and pets. It just means she acknowledges that there is an animal abuse problem in China, that it’s disheartening in its prevalence.
2c. What is the basis for you to suggesting that RT doesn’t recognize and admit that there is animal abuse in China? There is nothing in RT’s post that suggests this. You’re projecting a false attribute to RT and then attacking RT for it. This is a straw man fallacy. If I was RT, I’d find that insinuation as extremely insulting and very intellectually dishonest.
2d. RT isn’t deflecting the issue, distorting it, or attacking against those who speak out against inhumanity. RT is taking issue with people who distort this incident into wholesale condemnation of China, who are being unfair, who are being selective in what they see and don’t see. I very much believe that if you kept your condemnations to those directly responsible for this heinous act instead of indulging in making petty snipes at China’s “5000 years of civilization” and a Christmas list of grievances against Chinese society, RT wouldn’t have felt a need to say something in response to you.
2e. What explanation or reconciliation do you think RT owes you, especially since RT isn’t doing what you’re trying to pin on him/her?
3a. RT’s comment about Michael Vick was to state the fact that animal and human abuse happens all over the world. I assume RT felt compelled to remind you/everyone of this because RT feels there are too many people whose comments insinuate that this problem is unique to China. It isn’t unique to China. We don’t have any sociological studies at hand to refer to, but I wouldn’t be surprised that the SCALE of this problem in China is similar to other countries at similar levels of socio-economic development.
3b. I’ll go ahead and disagree with RT on never hearing these stories in the States. I hear plenty of them. Just awhile ago a YouTube video went viral over some American kid abusing kittens.
3c. There’s a deeper level to the fact that these animal abuse stories are so popular on China’s internet. It demonstrates that a whole lot of people in China find such behavior appalling and worthy of public censure. I imagine this alone lends credence to the claim that Chinese people like this women are NOT the minority, but very likely the majority. How else would you explain the overwhelmingly negative reactions of the Chinese people? Public censure is a social feedback mechanism, especially when actual justice (finding the person responsible) is unlikely. It helps socialize people as negative reinforcement against undesirable behaviors. Torturing little animals like this is definitely frowned upon in China and by the Chinese. That these stories routinely crop up shows how individual Chinese come together to to publicly condemn such behavior, just as Westerners have animal rights groups like PETA who use Facebook or whatever means to get the word out, to mobilize people to condemn.
3d. Why would you challenge RT to dispute animal cullings in China? Did RT say anything to suggest that he/she doesn’t think such things happen? Again, you’re using straw man arguments to demonize RT just because RT took issue to your comments.
3e. Animal cullings happen all around the world. This too is fact. I think we all agree that the Chinese have, in many incidents, not used methods you prefer or consider humane enough. There are reasons for this and I don’t think the implication that the Chinese are just evil uncouth bastards is the most reasonable. Many things in China happen as they do because they’re making do with what they have (this sometimes includes with what education and intelligence they have). It’s one thing to want these less than stellar examples to improve, but it’s another thing to be unfair to them given their background or circumstances.
3f. You write “There is a gap between Americans and Chinese when it comes to respecting all life.” Who are you writing this for? The Chinese? Do you think RT or the Chinese need to be reminded of this? In my experience, I think the vast majority of Chinese already understand this gap very well. So who are you writing it for? This kind of comment gives me the impression that you felt compelled to remind everyone of American superiority or Chinese inferiority (take your pick, or both with 10% off). Can you understand how people can take legitimate offense to this kind of comment?
3g. You ask where is China in enacting laws to protect animals. There actually are efforts to draft and enact such laws. Yes, I understand you wish they were already enacted and enforced. I think we all wish that. However, you do understand that things don’t happen overnight and setbacks happen. How long did it take for America’s existing civil rights laws to be drafted and enacted? Decades, some say even longer. Progress is made and setbacks happen, that’s just how this world is. China’s had a ton of setbacks, many self-inflicted. Don’t you think they’re far more conscious and embarrassed about them than you are?
4a. No one is asking you to blind yourself to China’s flaws. While not very mature, I do think RT’s suggestion that you “GTFO” is more an expression of his disagreement and disgust with your comments.
4b. I think you’re twisting the meaning behind catch-phrases like “5000 years of civilization” or “great civilization.” For one thing, it isn’t as if only Chinese people use these catch-phrases. For another, these catch-phrases aren’t used to imply that China is “great” in the sense of how wonderful it is, but how legitimately impressive it is that a reasonably continuous Chinese social identity has persisted and survived for so many years. Is there something wrong with taking a measure of pride in this? The vast majority of Chinese people are keenly aware of how chaotic their history has been, yet they’re still here. That’s kinda cool, don’t you think? Please don’t try to to make Chinese people who are proud of these things seem like they’re arrogantly proclaiming some false superiority. It is more of “wow, look at how much we’ve fucked up but we’re still here.” You’re conflating things together and misrepresenting what the significance of these catch-phrases. That’s not cool.
It is very disappointing that people use these examples to vent racist or borderline racist sentiments. While some people at least try to understand the possible causes, influences, circumstances that lead to such deviant and abhorrent behavior, others seem content to just attribute it to “oh, they’re Chinese, of course.”
“We don’t have any sociological studies at hand to refer to, but I wouldn’t be surprised that the SCALE of this problem in China is similar to other countries at similar levels of socio-economic development.”
Deflecting… And very predictable commenting pattern, again and again.
“Relative Truth is rightfully taking offense to you broadening this incident to justify your extended contempt for China as a whole.”
We tend to judge countries on the average or the sum, not on every single individuals, that’s just how it works, sorry (look at the U.S, not everybody is George Bush). And the sum coming out of China is pretty awful.
It’s a never ending story of human and natural catastrophes or conflicts. I mean, for God’s sake look around you and tell me another country where you can witness a daily outpouring of bad news and conflicts on such a large scale?
Unless there is a major conspiracy going on worldwide to control the negative news coming from this country, it seems that an awful lot of atrocities comes from China. That’s just a fact.
Negative image, worldwide. Instead of being apologists, why don’t people try to fix the issues or do something about it? Always, it’s just an endless verbal diarrhea of excuses and justifications.
Get the fuck over your 5000+ years of history and wake up. Who gives a shit if you were a (pseudo) nation for millenniums if it doesn’t make you better today?
NOBODY CARES! And it’s actually just reinforcing our idea that it’s meaningless and futile, especially since we can judge the current outcome of all this greatness (NOT).
Every generation is a new nation on its own. Just look at the 90’s generation (good luck with that by the way). What’s the point of having 5000 years of history if you rewrite the books anyways?
Isn’t the epitome of absurdity? A nation so proud of his past, that erases it and rewrite it.
Hilarious, and very sad at the same time.
Note: I’m not attacking you personally Kai, because I think you are moderate and generally speaking a good and rational commenter (I’m not, but I assume it). This is just a reminder to all the Feng Qing out there.
The Grudge,
I don’t think putting things into context is deflecting. In fact, it’s a very good way to highlight how an argument that is being made and which may sound persuasive is actually quite weak because its premise depends on divorcing something from its proper context. If these problems in China are shared by those similar to China, then it would be wrong to suggest or insinuate that these problems are unique to China. Putting things into context is just excusing what is happening or deflecting attention, it is pushing us beyond settling for the easy and ignorant answer and looking for the real answers.
I understand that proclivity. Do you understand why people would take offense to those judgements just as, say, Americans would take offense to being categorically associated with, blamed, insulted for the actions of Bush? We tend to generalize, I understand, but isn’t it a good idea to be understanding of those who get annoyed with generalizations paired with the Jeremiah’s tone of contempt? I think both reactions are things all humans do, so if we’re to accept the liberties Jeremiah takes, we should accept the reactions to those liberties.
Frankly, I find a daily outpouring of bad news to be the status quo for all countries, but that’s more of a media observation. Specific to what you’re trying to drive at, don’t you think the large scale of China might be a part of it? Yes, part of it is because China’s a pretty hard place to live in, but with regards to scale, China IS a huge country with a massive population. Have you ever seen the news in India? It is likewise pretty demoralizing, also “a never ending story of human and natural catastrophes or conflicts.” China is overwhelming to you in part because you’re paying attention to it. If you paid attention to all of the really shitty stuff that happens in say America or the UK, I think most people would still feel rather overwhelmed by how much shit happens. The world isn’t pretty, and it’s all the less so if you set out to look for the bad. chinaSMACK contributes to making that bad stand out.
Again, mind you, I’m not excusing or downplaying the shit that happens in China. I very much agree that its overwhelming. I am, however, trying impart a more reasonable frame of reference, a broader context. Why? Because like RT, I don’t really appreciate people going around insinuating that this is uniquely Chinese or having airs about them that really shitty stuff like this doesn’t happen elsewhere or in “the West”. It does, maybe not on the scale of China, but they’re not as big as China nor are their circumstances comparable. Do you understand my point?
Instead of being critics, why don’t people try to fix the issues or do something about it? Always, it’s just an endless verbal diarrhea of criticisms and complaints.
First, what makes you think apologists AREN’T trying to fix the issues and doing things about these problems? Likewise, you could say the same about critics. The logic fallacy in your statement is that you assume anyone who takes offense to the verbal abuse hurled their way are trying to excuse or justify. That’s just not true and its a dangerous assumption. Dangerous because it enables people to horribly malign and misrepresent the sincerity of others.
There are good ways to communicate and bad ways. Just look at my past comment history for examples of both. The vast majority of negative reactions stem from a feeling of being unfairly treated. Now, I do think many Chinese people aren’t too sophisticated in the art of rhetoric and critical debate, but I think likewise for many non-Chinese people as well. Foreign arrogance and contempt is just as real as Chinese knee-jerk defensiveness. It’s just that not everyone from either side is guilty of them while some are. I find it really strange that so many foreigners cannot identify with a lot of the Chinese defensiveness and I think it is because part of them doesn’t quite see the Chinese as equivalent to themselves: human. Have these foreigners who see Chinese defensiveness as some strange alien reaction never felt wrongly persecuted? Have they never felt annoyed with being criticized? Have they never felt like the criticisms they were getting were going overboard or getting piled on too thick? Have they never just gotten tired of it all?
I’m not excusing Chinese defensiveness and I’m most of all not excusing piss poor rhetoric or defenses. I’m just saying, geez, try to put yourself in their shoes. For a moment, stop viewing the dynamic as you vs. “the Chinese person” and view it as you vs. another person. Then consider if there’s a way to communicate in another way that might be more conducive to bringing about the change you want to see. Of course, it’d also help to be reasonable and realistic with the changes and timelines you have in mind. These things take time, and again, things progress and get setback for all sorts of reasons. Just think of the ongoing story of gay marriage in America, as it plays out in the states and federal level. It doesn’t happen over night. By all means, keep fighting (for good, not fighting for the sake of pissing each other off), but be mindful of these things. It’ll temper your frustrations and very likely bring about more mutual understanding, trust, and cooperation.
LoL, it’s kinda mean to deprive the Chinese of what little they can feel a measure of pride for. TRY to let something as small and inconsequential as this go, especially when they’re not using it to advance an argument. If they do, go ahead and take them to task if its used in a fallacious way, but try to keep it to that. If you have to, pity them for having so little to be proud of, but ideally be understanding. As many people have mentioned on chinaSMACK before, the Chinese are really quite conscious of how far they’ve yet to go compared to developed nations and they readily own up to it and admonish themselves for it. Yes, they’re a bit more insecure about it in the presence of foreigners, but most people want to feel respected. Leave them some dignity. It wasn’t necessary for Jeremiah to bring it up and lambast the Chinese for it, because no one brought it up or tried using it as an excuse or justification or irrelevant Chinese chest-thumping here.
If it helps, just imagine the resentment many critical Europeans have over Americans’ self-image of themselves or of just about everyone critical of French arrogance. Hey, the French do have some amazing food. They do have certain things to be rightfully proud of. The Chinese have 5000 years. Take it to task if and only when it’s being improperly invoked. An example would be if some Chinese guy invoked it as if it somehow and conclusively proves that Chinese are a superior race to any other race. This happens, but seriously, very rarely.
People don’t value about the age of their society or culture necessarily on how that age reflects how much “better” they are today. They value it for many other reasons. As I offered above, it is a testament to the fact that they’ve survived, especially when you sociological tend to view the world as a very harsh place. Jews cherish the age of their culture as well, and they cherish that they’ve survived what they perceive as ages of persecution at the hands of a variety of oppressors and enemies. Europeans cherish the age of their cultures too, or do you think they all feel shame that young 200 something America managed to achieve superpower status and cultural hegemony so quickly?
The age of one’s culture and civilization has significance beyond the present state of things. The Roman Empire is still great for how long it lasted despite the fact that it doesn’t exist today. Age and existence can be appreciated in of themselves.
Did you catch yourself straying into finding more things to express contempt of the Chinese for? Just here, you’ve branched into the 90’s generation and revisionism. To imagine, we started off with some psycho torturing kittens.
Your tangent really proves my point, that all too often foreigners tend to pile on their grievances and ridicule and this very quickly annoys the Chinese. Are you really unable to identify?
Indulging you in your tangent, I think many nations are guilty of this. I think many PEOPLE are guilty of it. It’s a very tempting thing to do if you have the power to do it, and people do it all the time. I think understanding how human such a proclivity is tempers how hypocritical we might sound when we bring it up. After all, the truth of a criticism is somewhat separate from how annoying hypocrisy is, right?
That said, your statement is a bit inaccurate. To be accurate, the government(s) of China has selectively rewritten the past, leaving what is advantageous to them and covering up or changing what isn’t. The little “5000 years of history” piece of trivia made the cut.
I appreciate the disclaimer at the bottom. I understand and very genuinely identify with your angst and eye-rolling disgust concerning a lot of the things or attitudes you mentioned. I understand you feel you mention these things to remind, temper, or bring down the fenqing a notch. I’m sure you understand my responses here are in the same vein, but directed to another set of things or attitudes that cause a lot of angst and eye-rolling disgust. I think its important for us to recognize the legitimacy of our respective gripes and restrain ourselves from thinking that acknowledging so somehow weakens, invalidates, or diminishes our own gripes.
how can you say the majority of the Chinese act this way? My parents are Chinese and they are no way like this. If you have read the comments, you will see that the Chinese are sensitive about the killings of animals for pleasure. You are just acting like your culture is superior to the Chinese culture.
This is animal cruelty! There should be laws against such things…Poor kittens.
There is no laws in China to protect animals.. the best thing to hope for is some rich chinese kid driving an EVO and run down these bastards…
Once again, too many people blur the issue because they do not want to “lose face” (one of the most destructive social concepts ever invented). If you cannot look at the growing number of cases like this and the growing severity, you are doomed to implode. I taught at a university in Beijing, mind you this is the capital, and I personally witnessed and/or found a sick stray cat having its head prodded by the feet of 3 university girls, a stray dog with 3 legs being chased down an alley for amusement, an old stray dog being led up the stairs of a five story building in hopes of food but only receiving ridicule and humiliation as it was just a means to watch it struggle, a stray dog hit by a car and left on the street to die, 3 family pets released on the streets in the middle of winter because they were too much of a burden during the travel time of spring festival, a stray dog with its throat cut from ear to ear being gawked at while it died, and 3 children with parents present throwing broken glass at a cat hiding in a tree. Now, I stopped and intervened in those cases. Anyone who wouldn’t has a serious disconnect from a morality code. The problem in China is not that people do not feel bad for these animals, it is that most Chinese have been raised to not care because in China it is always soomeone else’s responsibility. Before you disagree, ask yourself how many times you have seen a husband or boyfriend raise his hand in anger to strike his wife or girlfriend, and no one in China stops him??? Of course, there is no reason to stop him, it is someone else’s responsibility. It does not matter if it is morally wrong. And, don’t even start with the “who are you to say what is right and wrong” speech. Hitting a woman is wrong, torturing an animal is wrong, killing an animal (unless for sustenance) is wrong.
When say “too many people”, who exactly are you referring to and for what?
“Face” is largely analogous to the concept of “honor” in other societies. I trust you weren’t trying to imply it was a “destructive social concept” that only the Chinese “invented”?
Thank you for sharing your other stories. I think we all agree those are lamentable. I do think the wariness of getting involved in Chinese society is also lamentable. Do you have any thoughts on how this wariness was fostered in China and what could be done to change it?
“Face” is largely analogous to the concept of “honor” in other societies.????
Seriously, are you really comparing the “Face” concept to honor?
Do you know anything about honor? Can you make the distinction between blatant lies to cover up something and deceive others because of your infinite vanity versus the concept of personal integrity and devotion to a cause?
I’ll help you a bit and explain you how the “face” concept translates into the west.
“Face”: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; Disposed to lie, cheat, defraud, or deceive in order to save the “face”. An excessively high opinion of oneself. Holding or characterized by an unduly high opinion of oneself. Excessive pride in one’s social appearance or accomplishments.
The “Face” concept is fucking retarded and borrows from the most primal and animal instincts that we human have to deal with and control on a daily basis. The only difference? It’s incensed and defended on the base that it’s a “cultural” trait of the Chinese people.
Maybe you mean honor like in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
Coming from another bunch of caveman’s from 10000 B.C.
You can’t be serious. Time for a serious update of the moral code in China. As stated before, welcome to 2009.
You’re right. I should’ve been more careful in how I used the word “honor”. I think a better word that is less easily mixed up would be “reputation.” I think VeerLeft’s simple definition is pretty good too.
That said, I don’t agree with much of your violent reaction (nor do I find your “face as translated in the West” explanation to be very accurate) but I acknowledge my poor word choice probably caused it. I do however think you have a point with “face” being paraded as a uniquely Chinese cultural trait and I do want to state very clearly that I’m not a fan of “face” either before you start attacking me as if I am. I just don’t think “face”, insofar as it largely represents a person basically caring about one’s reputation or public image, is uniquely Chinese.
I just realized that there are usages of “face” or 脸 and 面子 that aren’t well explained by English words like “reputation” or “public image” also. However, my earlier “honor” can work for these usages. I know this is a bit of a translation/semantic issue but bear with me. For example:
“你要给他面子” which is “You need to give him face.”
You can’t really translate “face” here with “reputation” or “public image.” However, you could translate it as “You need to honor him.”
“Honor”, of course, is still a bit weird in a archaic way, but it does work as a verb. A better translation may be: “You need to give him respect” or “You need to give him deference.”
Try these also:
“你很丢脸”
“你很没面子”
“你没面子了”
How would you translate each of these into English?
Face is not the same as honor.
Face ~ reputation, and is the classic feature of a shame culture (as opposed to a guilt culture). In shame cultures, it’s the appearance of your actions that matter, rather than the underlying substance. In guilt cultures, it’s the opposite. The basic assumptions are fundamentally different: shame cultures base the value of actions on their interpretation(s) by society, while guilt cultures base the value of actions on their interpretation(s) by the self.
Thus, in a shame culture there is no incentive to behaving morally if others aren’t watching, because morality is only defined with respect to other people’s opinions. By contrast, in a guilt culture there IS incentive to behaving morally if others aren’t watching, because morality is defined with respect to the self and/or some higher power that is all-seeing.
Of course, in practice most cultures have a combination of shame and guilt, but some cultures do indeed lean towards shame over guilt, and vice versa. I’d say that East Asian societies in general are more shame-based than they are guilt-based, hence the constant pressure to hide, deny, and deceive.
Well said Yin.
Tom sum it all: Guilt means that there is at least a shadow of compassion and understanding towards others, in relation with one’s action. While shame, is purely an egoistical and primitive reaction.
The outcome of both psychological path is pretty clear.
Thanks, but I should point out that I disagree with you on the matter of how *edible* animals are treated in China vs. the West. I think there is a central hypocrisy there that many people are missing, and which makes the issue not so black-and-white. Read my posts below for more.
Face is public image.
Loss of face is embarrassment.
Even though its for the sake of argument thats horrible. How can you witness and hold all those things in. The imagery must be stuck in your head. I feel for you. Nevertheless, you must be pretty jaded and focus on that now. Come back to the blue sky and sunny meadows :)
@JEremy Vick
You’re right, China is making progress.
See the fun the “Celestial Ones” used to have with humans not long ago. Now they only use defenseless animals. In another hundred years, they will be as civilized as you are.
“Photos of death by 1000 cuts”
http://turandot.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Event.php?ID=10
wow, you must be one depressed sadistic **** to enjoy looking this stuff up then making snide comments. I feel sorry for you too and not in a condescending way.
I hope you can enjoy life again.
A footnote to my previous post – all of the afforementioned examples happened within 9 months on the same campus. Ridiculous and shameful.
cmfeirs, if there are just few millions more of you in China, China will certainly be a very great and powerful nation…
I think that it is not a coincidence that this happened on a university campus. Students here often feel tormented and enslaved. This is an extension of student life IMHO.
Add sexual repression to this and you have a very dangerous kind of mix.
its so sad that you have to witness it too. How’s the mental imagery going for you these days. Jaded enough?
Such a waste of food, how dare someone be so decadent when there are children going hungry in Guangzhou!
It seems to me that there is a legitimate difference between killing an animal for food and taking pleasure in suffering. That is the central difference between the story posted here and comments about restaurants.
To be honest, the grrafix.com link (above) is no different from choosing fish or lobsters at a restaurant, and you don’t see people making a fuss about that in the West.
This story, however, is quite different. I’m no bleeding heart liberal, but I used to work for a charity (http://www.scottishspca.org/) which looked after abused and abandoned animals. It is truly disgusting what some people will do to animals (dogs, horses, even stick insects and polecats).
Trying to be objective, one can only hope that the authorities can arrest and detain the person responsible before they commit more or worse atrocities. Any violence against the perpetrator/s is equally unjustified.
DWR
cmfeirs,Jeremiah, great posts, I think you pretty much covered it up. Anyone else who tries to blur the line in indeed in denial, and refusing to take responsibility for what is a major social problem, and therefore, it affects us all.
And yes, that’s also how serial murderers start, classic pattern.
Are we truly the only ones to think that chinese society is one huge kettle of pent-up frustration and anger that is on just on the verge of blowing up ?! How little time have you spent in China to not see that already ?!? Seriously… !
And about the farms, and food arguments — totally moot. Indeed killing for fun and for food are completely different. I really think there’s nothing more to say here.
If anyone tries to defend this act in the name of “objectivity”, you’re really just veering towards sociopathy/psychopathy without knowing it.
It really just comes down to no one taking responsibility. It’s the cause of 90% of this country’s problems. And until it changes (and taking responsibility means YOU take responsibility first), China will stay in the mess it put ITSELF in for the past century, at least.
You can have all the “hardware” you want (buildings, roads, currency reserves), but if the “software” (sense of personal responsibility, social empathy, basic morals and manners) isn’t working, all that hardware will be for absolutely naught. And you can’t just keep building hardware forever without putting some proper software in there, either.
do you still enjoy life’s simple pleasures?
yes. and your point is…. ?
this reminds me of my dog. I have a house in China where my grandparents live, and we had a baby golden retriever. One morning, my grand mom found it dead in the yard, and there was a bowl of rice outside the yard’s gate. They mixed sleeping pills or something into that bowl of rice, and when my dog was eating it, they grabbed it and beat it up. This happened to my other dog in china, but it was bigger so the pills took longer to take effect and it was saved, since my grandparents were doctors (not vet) i miss that baby dog, only got it for 2 weeks and it was killed my dog eating bastard in china.
Re: killing for food
Killing for food IS killing for pleasure in today’s world, because last I checked, you didn’t need to eat meat. You eat it for pleasure -> you kill animals for pleasure. It’s simple logic, yet people ignore it wholeheartedly in their self-righteous pontifications.
Re: no difference between this case and slaughter-houses
There IS a psychological difference between torturing/slaughtering animals and taking pleasure in that torture/slaughter versus killing animals for culinary pleasure, but that difference lies not in the moral quality of the situation but in what it says about the person’s state of mind. In the former case, it is the act of sadism that brings pleasure, which bespeaks of a disturbed mind. This disturbance threatens society because it could easily transform into psychopathic behavior. In the latter case, the blood and the brutality goes on behind closed doors, where the average meat eater never sees it. Therefore, we can be reasonably secure that there is no sadistic intent.
But that’s it. Beyond this discrepancy it’s all killing for pleasure. Don’t pretend that you don’t pay higher prices for steak than you do for lettuce. Don’t pretend this voting-by-wallet has no effect on the number of animals being raised and killed. If you don’t like what you see in Chinese meat markets you should think about your culinary habits, first and foremost, because there is no easy way out of the logic that you support killing animals for pleasure.
Just the same, it is interesting to note that lists of animal intelligence place pigs above either dogs or cats; yet, pigs are food and are slaughtered on a daily basis, but kill a dog or cat for food and you’re suddenly barbaric and backwards.
You got all those hits and comments for that? Miaow it happens all over the world. Anyway, they’ll only end up at kebabs on Tongren Lu which you’ve probably eaten anyway. Like we need a load more cats dude. Fuck ‘em. Don’t slay China on cat maltreatment if thats all you got, muthafucka. At least we don’t go spraying teenage schools with AK47’s, assholes. Screw the cats, people took their revenge out on the owners, not the pussy.
40 years ago the Red Guards were doing this to people. I guess this is further proof that China is moving towards a more harmonious society because of the Party’s great leadership.
As if things were much better in the imperial days.
It’s possible to blame the Party for many things, but it’s not possible to pretend that the state of Chinese morality was great before the Party came into power.
except some of them ate their victims afterwards. ironically…there was no cat-eating here.
Yin, I at least agree with you on the latest post, this has SO nothing to do with communism (if anything, that’s probably what they wanted to correct when they came up with it).
But as for killing to eat = pleasure, sorry, but that’s a very thin thread. “you don’t need meat” is debatable. If you don’t, then you need some good supplements, and a lot of those come from meat by-products anyways, soo… not much change there. (and while we’re at it, is it ok to eat fish ?!)
For the pig part, I don’t eat pork meat exactly for the reason you stated. And everyday I try hard to limit my meat consumption, and if I have some, that’s what i’ll finish first because I’m well aware that an animal died for it to end up on my plate.
This is all part of the complete consciousness that we should aim for. Obviously this escapes most of us, though.
Y, I think animal rights vegetarians would disagree with you that we need any meat, and that supplements can almost always be synthesized or, if not, taken from animals without killing them (ie milk, unfertilized eggs, etc.) The real question then becomes one of moral philosophy, in particular having to do with the proper relationship between our treatment of an organism and the nature of that organism. The point I’m making is that people are happy to condemn others for not having the same perception of what’s proper, even as they violate their own definition of what’s proper themselves.
This is really two separate points. The first point is that biases and inconsistencies hamper the usefulness of ethical arguments. Not only is meat eating legal in the West, but so is hunting. Hunting is basically killing animals for pleasure (and is characterized as such – a sport). On what ground, then, do Westerners condemn what other cultures do?
This must be made clear by those who criticize animal rights in China, because it’s not as simple as “China treats animals bad. The West treats animals good.” Rather, there are nuances, and each nuance must be examined to see whether they hold. One such nuance is the distinction between “pets” and “food animals,” which differ from country to country. In parts of China, dogs and cats are seen as legitimate “food animals.” To criticize such practices on an ethical level, Westerners must be ready to argue that dogs and cats are special in ways that pigs and cows are not. Moreover, they must be ready to accept that such arguments could be culturally subjective, in which case they have limited ethical value.
The second point is that there IS wiggle room in the proper delineation of what’s acceptable and what’s not acceptable when it comes to animal rights. While we might all condemn the torture and murder of kittens, it is simply not true that cases are always so clear-cut. Even within Western society, the differences are pronounced, and we are reminded of this each time PETA starts a new campaign. Given this fact, how much currency should actually be placed in the association between civilization and animal rights? How many people here buy into the idea that vegetarians are more civilized? If not, then isn’t it the case that people’s personal stance with regards to animal rights is not necessarily determinant of their level of civilization?
Ultimately, I think there is some real ground for controversy in the debate over how we should treat different species of animals. Cases like this one, which is clear-cut, do not speak to the nuances inherent in the general subject, and it is not helpful to conflate issues like whether Chinese people eat cats & the state of rural dog culling technology with the psychopathic killing of pet kittens.
I’m just curious. Does anyone here take pleasure in seeing the reaction of the cat owner?
Sad but who the heck cares? Chinese don’t need pets in the first place unless they know how to train them and properly take care of them. I hope at least some poor people were able to make a meal out of those things.
After living a long time in Kunming I could tell you that this kind of shit happening is not too unusual. It’s a big city full of nongmin.
@Kai you sure write a lot of pompous bull-s**t.
I remember visiting the Shanghai zoo a number of years ago and seeing a small dog in the cage with several tigers. The dog was obviously “nervous.” When I asked why a dog was kept in a cage with tigers, I was told that the tigers were well-fed and the dog was not in danger. I was never given a reason for this sick “joke.”
Cruelty, lack of compassion, sadism, are key elements in Chinese history and culture.
Kai, people criticize China’s constant bragging about their little 5,000-year old history because one would think that after 5.000 years, the Chinese would be a little more evolved in social behavior and decent humanity. If it took 5,000 years for China to get to this point in their history, how long will it take them to reach the social level of New Zealand?
If Kai wants to continue to try and “apologize” away these facts, well, we understand – for those “wannabe Chinese,” you do what you have to.
lolly, given that all your “facts” have already been called to question by the pompous bullshit I’ve written before, all that’s left to say is: you’re an idiot.
Kai, you’re the idiot. You are the classic example of an apologist.
Try ONCE to make a post about China’s lack or morality WITHOUT bringing up what goes on in “countries of a similar socio-economic development.”
You can’t. Because you’re an apologist. Rather than condemn these actions and admit that Chinese people have a long way to go, and leave it at that, you feel the need to hurry up and throw and a bunch of other names into the hat to try and diminish or deflect the original point, which is China’s continuing problem in regards to the respect of all life.
China has this problem. We’re not talking about India, or any other country. We’re talking about China. Stick to the topic. If you can.
China does not have basic human rights. Fact. China has no laws in place to protect animals. Fact. China is running a form of government that has, historically, been proven to fail in the end. Fact.
Dispute this without deflecting the issue. Dispute this without putting the names of other countries in your mouth. If you can.
Now to address your off-topic bullshit, which you should’ve never brought up… you mentioned how it took decades for minorities to get civil liberties in the U.S. LAUGHABLE. You’re right. It took decades. It certainly did. But we now have a minority in office, running our country. And we voted him in freely. He didn’t have to put himself into power through bloodshed, like your glorious communist party.
The U.S. gained all that it has in less than 200 years. She became the greatest country the world has ever known, and her people are strong and they’re free.
China’s had 5,000 years to get it right. Where is she now? How much longer until she succeeds?
Answer me, if you can. Sadly, the truth is, you cannot answer these questions, Kai. You can’t, because you’re of the same ilk as those who’ve turned Mao Zedong into sweet “grandpa Mao,” because of your insane cult of personality bullshit. The killer from Hunan. The man responsible for killing more Chinese than every other nation combined.
Imagine if Germans so distorted the facts of their own history that Hitler came to be known as “grandpa Hitler?” Can you now understand how laughably, sadly, unbelievabley patehtic that is?
No. you can’t. Because you’re an apologist.
I’ll say it again. China has a long way to go. It doesn’t matter what you say, what you do, how hard you apologize or whine or cry, it can never change this fact. Try to face it and to deal with it, instead of deflecting the issue and noting what other countries are doing. China is not other countries. It is far from it.
I’ll leave you with this thought, my friend. A true patriot will shine light on the darkest corner of his country, and he will magnify it for all to see, so that he may change it and make it better.
A true patriot will not hide this dark corner, and pretend that it does not exist. He will not justify it’s existence. He will not say, “There are dark corners in my neighbor’s house too. Therefore dark corners are natural, and should be spoken of no more.”
Understand this, something you have never understood before. People do not exist to serve the government. A government exists to serve it’s people. If a government does not serve it’s people, it is the job of every true patriot to replace this government with one that works. Not to stand by idly, apologizing for it’s mistakes, and deflecting attention away from it’s atrocities.
P.S. The Grudge, Yannick, cmfeirs, lolly; all great posts.
Jeremiah, you’re a fucking tool.
First of all, I’m far from one to ‘defend China’ or be an apologist, as many of my posts can attest to, however:
Look at the Chinese posts. Ask anyone around you. Don’t sit on the “China” bandwagon based on your speculative observations, but ASK PEOPLE YOU KNOW how they react to this story, ask people you know what they think about killing/culling of animals. I have asked people in my office what they think, everyone loves animals. Some attest to the fact some ‘outdoor’ animals left to the streets carry disease – which *is understandable* – but there is a defined difference between potentially diseased homeless animals, animals people consume which are bred for food, and house pets. I don’t know what kind of people YOU know that you’ve spoken with to derrive your ridiculously jaded opinion, but you’re fuckin dreaming.
Certainly there are quite a few bad people here who abuse animals here. There are also quite a few who abuse animals in any country. Clearly you don’t read much news. Google “serial cat murderer”.
It’s not “accepted”. Look at the outpour of anger and sadness in the comments that CHINESE people have posted. Do you see a SINGLE comment that acknowledges the murder in a way like “big deal” or “who cares”? I didn’t. I don’t know where you get your information, but the information *presented here* and information *in my personal life* contradicts your bullshit entirely. If you’re hanging out with people who consider animal abuse fine, maybe *you’re* the fucked up one who needs to check yourself, not “China”.
Certainly the country has a long way to go in many regards. I agree that there should be more defined laws and groups to protect animal rights and register pets rather than let them be pushed by shadow-economy style pet ‘pushers’ and such, and I believe that the country *is moving* towards that right now. Notice the forced pet registrations going on in some cities? GOOD. Then they can control the pet population, and force people to take care and responsibility for their animals – as well as intrinsically bring some respect to them as being acknowledged by the government as requiring some sort of registration and legitimization.
Going off on the “China has had 5000 years to get it right” bullshit is ridiculous. First of all, I’m the first one to crack the “5000 years my ass, you still shit in troughs” comment. That doesn’t mean much. The “claims” made vs. the reality that most civilizations have really only modernized in the last recent century or two for ANY culture really make that an irrelevent argument. Consider this, it was only recently africans all over the world were segmented off as a lesser species of man, given lesser rights than others..animals were treated better in recent US history than them, every country has to go through their own steps, allow China to go through theirs.
I’m not saying don’t critique, critique away, just don’t critique from a soap box and fling the “don’t say I have problems to avoid your own” argument back when someone else calls you on your shit too. Every country has a long way to go in many ways, China just perhaps farther than others in many. That being said, get over yourself, and stop trying to make it like everyone in China is a fucking animal torturer when the evidence is clearly not pointing to that fact.
LoL! Jeremiah Jeremiah Jeremiah…
1. Rick already said a bunch.
2. Pretty much every single point you tried making was already addressed in my previous responses.
3. I love the very likely notion that you register that I disagree with you, look at my photograph, and then make assumptions about who I am, where I’m from, my “ilk”, my “cult of personality”, etc. And yet you’re sooo far off the mark.
4. Keep going at it, Jeremiah. You’ll take comfort in the people who agree with you, as there ARE plenty who do. I will, however, just continue to pity you and those cohorts just as I take pity on the fenqing. You guys really are more alike than different, and I hope you’ll learn that someday…but I guess not today.
Dick in China – You’re a doucebag. You cannot debate the points I’ve made, so you resort to the same deflection that Kai did.
“every country has to go through their own steps, allow China to go through theirs.”
We’re not talking about other countries. We’re talking about China. And until China develops basic human rights, and rights for animals, I will continue to sit on my “soap-box.”
The only reason you guys are getting pissed and calling me names is because you know what I’m saying is true. When China isn’t burning animals, beating dogs to death with sticks, or torturing cats, then we’ll talk again.
Kai
Congratulations. You took my challenge of making a post minus your defelcetions and apologist bullshit.
And we were left with… an amazingly short-winded response bereft of your typical long-winded apologist drivel. Thanks for that.
Jeremiah, refusing to acknowledge other people’s rebuttals to your “points” is not the same as them not debating them. For example, I responded to each of your “points” above and instead of addressing my points, you simply saw fit to repeat your accusation that anyone who disagrees with you must be an apologist and then soap-box the same “points” others already responded to. This is what we call intellectual dishonesty. You’re not here to actually have a reasoned discussion as you’re here to slam the Chinese and anyone who would beckon that you exercise reason. You’re an extremist, someone who sees things as black or white, us vs. them, either with you or against you. That’s too bad. It’s also too bad that there are many people in this world who walk the same path you do.
I, and I’m sure Rick as well, know you’re talking about China. The problem is you don’t know or refuse to acknowledge what WE’RE (RT, RIC, myself) talking about. Have you considered for a moment that we’re not trying to justify, excuse, deflect the problems in China but that we find your attitude, arguments, rhetoric, etc. to be inappropriate and distasteful? Why is that we have all openly acknowledged that there are problems in China but are still taking issue with you? If you say there are problems and we say there are problems, then the issue in contention is NOT whether there are problems, but about something else. You keep trying to make us seem like we’re denying, deflecting, etc. when that’s not the case. Again, straw man fallacy.
You have spent more time repeating the same accusations without substantiation in this thread than you’ve actually discussed the points. Your argumentation is absurd. Case in point: “You’re just mad at me because I’m right! Nyah!” What are you, in kindergarten?
I’ve said before that there is legitimacy in both of our grievances. It’s unfortunate that you want to persist in your self-righteous arrogance.
Kai, Rick, you’re wasting your time giving him/her serious responses. He’s too far gone. Why bother having a discussion with someone who’s ready to bite at your leg without even thinking thoroughly?
poor thing, yeah, I understand what you mean. To be honest, I have very few delusions about changing Jeremiah’s opinion/prejudices. I don’t think we write to convince or change him, but to just make sure anyone who cares to read hears another voice. I know if I go to a website or into a group, hear only one narrative, and start thinking everyone there thinks that way, I’ll very likely leave demoralized if I don’t share that narrative.
chinaSMACK has already been overrun by racists and I don’t bother responding to all of them because I draw a line somewhere expecting others to easily dismiss the really dumb racist comments. However misguided and biased I think Jeremiah is, he’s far more dangerous and worth a written rebuttal because of the superficial eloquence and persuasiveness of his comments. It’s easy to nod your head in agreement with all the grandiose things he’s saying until you start questioning just what exactly he’s basing all these comments on.
I take him to task not because I expect him to change, but because I’d rather others reading this know that not everyone here on chinaSMACK thinks like him. Furthermore, a lot of people may feel that what he says is wrong, but not know how to explain why. This is normal, everyone has their own talents. If I may humbly share my own educational training and minor talent for argument and debate, I hope doing so can help others articulate their own feelings better when they might encounter people like Jeremiah elsewhere. One of the great things about Western education is the emphasis on encouraging critical thinking and debate. We’re taught to question and voice our disagreements to better understand not just the issue in contention but also ourselves.
Wow, little hotties!!! Wish he had the balls to do some upskirt shots…
Who is to say it was not the photographer who killed the kittens to get the photo? Some people do any cruelty to get sensational photos.
Good Post Jeremiah, it’s a waste of time to argue with some of the “people” here!
Rick(whatever)/Kai,
Hopefully one day you guys will be able to find excuses for those who cut you open & toss your bodies infront of your family as well!
P.S. Rick, you can go back and fuck yourself, just don’t fuck around here!
Not Found, I’m curious to hear what evidence you have to suggest that we’re finding excuses for people animal torture. Finding Jeremiah’s attitude objectionable has nothing to do with our acceptance of animal abuse.
Seems like you’ve got a real fanclub here, Kai. Other than you and your boy Rick, I don’t see to much support being thrown your way.
You ever think that maybe the rest of the world isn’t viewing China through the same harmony-tinted glasses you are?
Or is it because every time someone posts something negative about China, you have to run to the rescue with some shit about how “other countries” are just the same way, were the same way, etc…
Just admit this shit is fucked up and move on. The only intellectually dishonesty I see going on is from your end.
But I guess this is just civilization with “chinese characteristics.” Right? Keep swimming upstream river crab, hopefully you’ll get there some day.
Wow, are you really trying the “I’ve got more people agreeing with me so I’m right and you’re wrong” argument?
Do you read? I wrote this earlier:
I think more of the world sees China as you do than as I do. This however doesn’t mean your view of China is more accurate, much less correct. It’s a matter of exposure to information and individual consideration.
You say I view China with “harmony-tinted” glasses. I say you view China with “self-righteous arrogance”. Shrug.
Why do you feel entitled to posting something negative about China and feel this entitlement includes precluding others from reacting to what you post? If you want to share your opinion, please have the decency to allow others their own. It’s evident that we both think each other’s arguments are “shit”. Fun.
Where haven’t I admitted that the torturing and mutilation of four kittens is fucked up? I have repeatedly declared that I find this fucked up. Do you read?
The fact that I respond to your comments point by point and you don’t is a testament to where the intellectual dishonest is going on. Just take a look at my first response to your diatribe. Point by point, I believe I responded very civily and took great pains to not only explain my disagreement, but point out where we agree. Did you ever respond? No, I think you just called me an apologist (as you initially threatened anyone who dared disgree with you) and tried unilaterally declaring victory.
Yo, i’m down with Kai.
Dude, keeps things balanced. Yeah, there is problem with animal cruelty. However, I don’t think saying all Chinese are animal abusers is fair.
Although, I really enjoy reading both sides of the fence. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.
But, Kai is cool man. I love all you guys.
I feel it has nothing to do with support. More that you’re posting such sad shit on these boards where there may be people who will actually take you seriously and I feel sorry for those who you might actually hold sway over.
Kai, evertime there is a post about sth wrong in our country, when people expressing their anger/ sadness torwards those issue, you have to hurry up and try to defend it, i don’t need to show you “the envidence” because you left it everywhere on this site, you just enjoying arguing with tons of people here with your long “articals”, trying to find problems from other peoples’ comments other than really expressing your feelings to any news. Being a chinese myself, reading about such sick things happening here, I’d rather to admit its wrong, we do have a long way to go in everywhere, sitting here to defend it makes us has a even longer way to go…
为什么要承认根本不存在的指控？这个网站上一部分评论的人就是不坏好意，是所谓的China-basher，一提到中国负面的消息就像打了枪药，兴奋的不得了，为了诽谤中国而诽谤，不惜以偏概全，混淆事实。即便你承认了那些是你的错，这些人也不会停止，而是变本加厉地继续诽谤，更何况他们指控的并不是事实。
谦虚是中华文化的优良传统，所谓谦虚使人进步，但这种传统只能对有理智的人用，对这些失去理智的反华的粪粪，最好的办法是以牙还牙以眼还眼。外国人对中国的误解已经相当深了，其中一个很重要的原因是我们面对他们的非议的不作为和不辩解。要消除误解只有一个办法，就是针锋相对的激烈辩论，讲出自己的看法。
更何况，Kai并不是“为谁而辩护”，他只是抒发己见，无论是对人还是对事的看法。他是一个斗士，是在为自己内心的真理而战，不屈不挠，不知疲倦，而且他思维清晰逻辑明确论据充分，从这点说，我很佩服他。
最近在看当年明月的《明朝那些事儿》，如果Kai生在明朝，一定是个勇于直言极谏的言官，哈哈。
http://baike.baidu.com/view/391619.htm
说得好！我支持Kai
承认不存在的指控？血淋淋地事实放在眼前，我们还要继续骗自己？有的时候我们是不是高估了自己，总是觉得别人要故意污蔑我们国家，以为别人吃饱了都没事做整天就在那里想尽办法反华，如果我们国家没有问题，就不会给别人理由来抨击。
给你举个例子吧：
你想承认自己是虐猫犯，我真是一点意见都没有。但我不是，我周围的亲朋好友也不是。所以如果有人看到一个06年4月发生的虐猫案就不怀好意地推而广之为多数中国人现在都是虐猫犯，而且言语中充满了种族歧视的话，我真的是非常反感。我不是高估了我自己，因为我确实没有虐待过猫。多数人有谴责少数道德沦丧者的权利，但没有为他们承担罪行后果的义务，对吧。
你说恰恰是反的，确实有人想故意污蔑中国人，而且吃饱了没事干天天发表种族歧视言论，嗨的很，你如果浏览ChinaSMACK久了你就看出来了。批评CCP和政府，我是一点意见都没有，很可能还帮你添油加醋，但这种恶意污蔑一个族群一棒子打死一群人的做法我是相当有意见。
另外，“如果我们国家没有问题，就不会给别人理由来抨击”，这个论述的成立性仅仅局限于理论。因为攻击的人会把以前的问题当做现在攻击的借口，把其他方面的问题当做这个攻击的借口，把个别的问题当做全面攻击的借口，正所谓欲加之罪何患无辞也，很多时候想要攻击的动机是在先的，寻找要攻击的借口是之后的。接受批评也是要区别对待的，恶意的中伤则要给与还击，何况你来我往的辩论始终是没有坏处的，通过辩论认识到自己的缺陷往往比闷头承认得到的启迪要深刻的多。
Not Found, you’re still not differentiating between blind defensiveness and reasonable objection to unfair condemnation. EVERYONE here agrees China needs to keep improving and progressing. SOME of us just find the self-righteous arrogance and hypocrisy of OTHERS to be intolerable. There’s a difference. You’re confusing the issues, man.
承认的不是谁是虐猫犯，是这样的事情常在我们国家发生，今天拿出来说的也许已经发生了一段时间，但是相同的事情还在发生着，只是因为不在网上，不代表我们就能眼不见为净。我们国家在很多方面的确需要改进，评论的人也只是对事而不是对人，只是某些人听到一些不同的意见就像被踩了尾巴，整天追着不放，不能同化别人就誓不罢休，已经完全失去了在这里评论的意义。
@ Not Found
“相同的事情还在发生着，只是因为不在网上，不代表我们就能眼不见为净”
确实如此，这些行为应该被谴责，犯罪的人应该被查出来，也许没有法律可以制裁他，但是应该受到道德的谴责。但是对于我们多数人来说，应该站在谴责的一方而不是站在被谴责的一方。接受批评并不代表应该容忍恶意中伤，对吧。
“（恕删）…已经完全失去了在这里评论的意义”
我LOL了。ChinaSMACK文章的评论区不是最高法院的辩论现场，也不能解决任何实质问题，反而是各种异灵怪兽撒野拉粪的游乐场，你对这里讨论的期望太高，也把这里很多人的素质想象的太高了，其实，操英文的脑残比比皆是。
Not Found,
你这就错了。就是因为有人（比如我自己）觉得某些人评论的不只对事而对人才在反抗。也许你只没感到这点。
该承认的都承认了，这谁还没承认中国还必须改进？大家写了那么多，你应该能指出来这些人吧？
没找到，我从来没有把在这里评论的人的素质想的很高，也没对这里的讨论有何期望，某些人早已向我证明了这些事实。
Not Found, 看来我们已经达成了局部的共识，虽然我说的“某些人”和你说的“某些人”应该不一样。希望你留住热情，保持队形，一如既往地为ChinaSMACK的盖楼事业添砖加瓦, lol.
Well, some of these commenter on here are freaking assholes. I fully support Kai in his effort, especially all his arguments are sound and logical.
It’s basically like every instances on here is: Post on some stupid human crap…ChINKS ARE EVIL FUCKS…blah blah. It gets old.
I definitely do no condone any of the sadist kitten mudering actions. And I see some of their points. However, like Kai and Yin mentioned, dudes needs to put this in context (versus just one-sided judgment against the Chinese people without regard for anything. I.E fucking chinks suxxors bitches die woot).
*I know China has problems.
**I should just ignore.
Not Found, that’s just not true. Within these comments in this post itself is all the evidence necessary to demonstrate how untrue it is. Look at all the comments expressing sadness and anger towards this horrifying act. Am I taking issue with them? NO. I take issue with those who try to use this example to wrongfully and unfairly condemn the rest of China and Chinese people in one fell swoop. That’s crossing a line.
I challenge you to find something I’ve said above that suggests I don’t think animal torture is wrong. You won’t find any, because I have always believed and have openly agreed that animal tortue is wrong. What is ALSO wrong is the wholesale condemnation of the Chinese by people like Jeremiah and lolly. I’m arguing with them NOT because I think animal tortue is not wrong or that I’m not willing to admit animal tortue is wrong. I’m arguing with them because of the conclusions they’re drawing about the Chinese through this one incident. You’re confusing the two, possibly purposefully.
Here’s one big thing neither Jeremiah, lolly, or you have yet to address:
Who do you think MORE represents Chinese society? The douchebag who did this to these kittnes? Or the utterly shocked and horrified reactions of the women who adopted the stray cats and all the Chinese netizens who have come upon this news story?
Second question:
Given that Jeremiah believes the kitten abuser represents Chinese society. Do you agree with him?
If you don’t agree with him, then you might just finally understand what it is RT, Rick in China, Yin, and other people here who have either commented against Jeremiah, Lolly, etc. or voted against them are taking issue with.
You just proved what i said, enjoy your arguement, I’m sure you will find the ” pleasure”, just not from me!
“I’m arguing with them because of the conclusions they’re drawing about the Chinese through this one incident. “-Kai
We had more than this one incident, we actually have too many “accidents” happened here, its time to make a change.
Uh, it’s time for you to start answering the questions above.
Go find your pleasure somewhere else, its time for me to ignore u.
I feel like so many of these people waste their time and lives. On you go into the group of sad jaded mofos who have grudges to bear and nothing better, positive or productive to do
*sadface*
Wow!
Kai says: ” lolly you’re an idiot.”
Rick in China says: “Jeremiah, you’re a fucking tool.”
” . . . [Jeremiah} you’re* the fucked up one."
The senseless killing of four kittens again focuses the spotlight on the character of Chinese society.
In the final analysis, name calling doesn't answer the questions:
Is China becoming a more humane society (after 5,000 years)?
Is China, as a "political power," contributing to world peace?
Disregard China relationship with the countries below so it does not distort the answer:
[Sudan, Myanmar, Pakistan, North Korea, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Iran]
Is China, as an economic “giant,” a responsible world player in product safety?
[Disregard the export safety scandals below so that they do not distort the answer] “poison” toothpaste, “poison” milk, toxic toys, “poison” candy, flammable children’s clothing, etc.
Is China currenty practicing less censorship?
Are Chinese becoming more tolerant, less xenophobic, less racist?
Simple answers to these current issues, instead of name calling, will give an indication if China is truly progressing in its 5,000 year culture.
lolly, calling you an idiot is pretty much a deserved response to calling my comments pompous bullshit. I think we’re at least even here.
The senseless killing of four kittens does focus the spotlight on Chinese society. The issue here is that different people see different things. RT, RIC, and apparently I happen to see certain things we feel you, Jeremiah, and others don’t see or refuse to see. You see the animal abuser as representative of Chinese society. We, on the other hand, see the horrified responses of the Chinese hearing this news as MORE representative of Chinese society.
Is China becoming a more humane society after 5000 years? If you’ve studied Chinese history, you’d probably agree with me in saying “why yes, it is.” No one here is denying that it isn’t as humane as we’d all like it to be, but to divorce the current state of Chinese society with what led up to this point is illogical and unfair.
Is China contributing to world peace? This is a pretty silly question because it can’t objectively be answered without considering geopolitical circumstances. I personally think China isn’t actively trying to destabalize the world but rather doing what any country would do and DOES do: look out for its own interests. Please keep in mind that challenging the dominance of your country or your ideology is NOT destabilizing world peace. Please keep in mind that the competition of ideas is very much part and parcel of “Western” ideology too, just in case you’ve forgotten.
Is China a responsible world player in product safety? I think they’re doing what they can with what they have. Shoddy product quality has been a common phenomenon with any developing country. Singling out China for this is kinda silly. You can’t expect a previously agrarian society of unskilled and largely uneducated workforce to magically understand first-world safety standards over night. The Chinese do not exist to cater to your every whim and desire. They’ve got worries and priorities of their own, just like Mexicans, Filipinos, Sri Lankans, etc. The reason why this question is also silly is because we can easily turn it around and ask how America, as THE economic giant, a responsible player in financial responsibility?
Yet again (because I expect it), this isn’t deflecting, this is putting things in their rightful context. Your arguments and condemnations all depend on divorcing context from the equation. Why? This is not a realistic way of examining problems and working towards solutions. This is, however, an intellectually lazy way to vent your contempt and even racism.
Is China currently practicing less censorship? Resoundingly yes. While this inevitably fluctuates, Chinese today enjoy far more access to information and discourse than ever before. You should go talk to Rebecca MacKinnon and other people who know better than you.
Are Chinese becoming more tolerant, less xenophobic, less racist? As a whole? Yes. The opening up of China since Mao first closed it off has exposed the Chinese to far more foreigners and foreign sources of information and ideas than, again, ever before. If you’re upset that they’re not starry eyed all the time when they see foreigners, it’s probably because NOT EVERYTHING FOREIGN is good and positive. Is there still tolerance, xenophobia, and racism? Yes, just as there is ignorance and hate. But given your comments and those you seem to be siding with here, would my impression of you being intolerant and racist be any less legitimate than your impression of the Chinese?
Likewise, you’d do well addressing my arguments instead of calling it “pompous bullshit”. Insofar as you refuse to hold yourself to the same expectations you demand of others, you deserve being called an idiot. The fact that you don’t HAVE answers to the above questions suggests that you’re not very informed about China. The fact that you think SIMPLE answers should suffice suggests that you’ll never be.
Go ahead, call me pompous or an apologist. I’m used to it and every time I laugh because it really is the best comeback people like you can muster.
Why does Kai take out a personal vendetta against anyone who disagrees with him? Just let it go, dude. You waste way too much of your energy this way.
Interesting, between the tone of the comments between myself and Jeremiah or lolly, you think I’M the one who has a personal vendetta? Why do you want me to let it go instead of them?
Hold up.
I’m not a Kai fanboy. But, I will say, DUDE HAS A POINT. He is not just disagreeing to disagree. As someone that has studied Chinese history and philosophy, China HAS made a lot of great changes in it’s 5000 year history. Now, im not saying China is perfect. There were many set backs. Also, there are many problems to be faced as China develops. I think they mainly deal with balancing the development of human rights with economic development. Its a hard job. However, not all Chinese people are evil. That is just wrong to say…
We can’t just look at a blog post and then say, “Hey all Chinese people are like that.” We can say that there maybe a problem with this kind of incidents happening in China, but we should use proof.
It’s like saying all police officers are racist after the Obama comment. Its stupid generalization. Although, racial profiling happens a LOT in the states. Most Americans know that not all cops are racist.
Hahaha! Hahaha!
I can’t help but laugh at your responses. :)
Your logic is elegant; your prose is beautiful.
It would be very interesting to look at and study you.
I wonder how do you tie your shoes in the morning?
For some reason, I imagine you (like Andy in “Little Britain”) a little overweight and confined to a wheelchair. I understand your frustration.
Anyway, Kai, take care of yourself and don’t let the “gang of four” (The Grudge, Yannick, cmfeirs, lolly) diminish your fervent desire to be a Chinese. If you wish hard, in your next life, you will come back a Chinese citizen but maybe a Uyghur minority.
I know you all are smart people, but some of you are being intentionally daft.
Five thousand years of history? So what. China is no younger or older than any other civilization in the world. The US wasn’t built out of a vacuum. It was built by Europeans. Europeans sure the hell don’t have a two hundred year history. Every step of Western society can be traced to some previous influence, all the way back to the Greeks and before. It’s just that Europeans changed the name of their countries every few hundred years or so, so you can’t claim some imaginary continuity bullshit but really, who cares? China wasn’t always called China, either. During the Qin it was called Qin. During the Han, Han. During the Tang, Tang. Ming, Ming. Qing, Qing. It’s only the particulars of Chinese historicity that has China claiming all past dynasties as part of the same lineage. They were really different countries all along, so in that respect, China is 60 years old.
But a pro tip for those Europeans out there feeling self-righteous about themselves: Europe’s “good behavior” is also about 60 years old. Before that Europeans were stone cold killers, proud racists, and professional environment wreckers. Not that the rest of the world was any better (except on the last point), but there certainly wasn’t this liberal-humanist bullshit that people like Jeremiah is trumpeting nowadays. Slaves were kept in the US all the way up to 1865, which was only 40 years before China abolished it herself. Stray dogs were rounded up and drowned in a large metal cage (”animal control”) as recent as the early 1900s. Animal rights? Get real. All of this is a pretty recent phenomenon, to which end, we might as well ask, *in general*: so why did it take humanity 100,000 years before they started coming up with all this stuff?
Bottom line: the modern world is a fluke. A deviation from the long, cold, apathetic history of human existence. There was little sustained moral progress in any part of the world for most of the last ten thousand years. Hell, the Greeks and the Warring States Chinese in 300 BC were better than the Medieval Europeans and Age of Fragmentation Chinese in 500 AD. In the post-World War II haze, liberal humanism has radically changed the way people (or at least some people) think about the world and themselves. But this has been a process largely limited to the West and its immediate allies. Elsewhere, the world continues to be a cold, dark place.
It’s perfectly fair to say that China still has a long way to go, but that assumes something: that “there” is, in fact, the destination, as opposed to simply a momentary respite before the brutality of history resumes.
Excellent and very refreshing comment. This is what I call putting things in perspective. True objectivity.
I tend to think that reality is overrated anyways.
A little bird told me that the brutality of history is about to resume…
Excellent comment. While I personally want to be a bit more optimistic, I really respect the cynicism and pessimism (or we could say realism).
When we say China has a long way to go, I think we’re obviously defining the destination as whatever China is being measured against, usually “the West” or the “first-world” or America, Europe, Japan, Taiwan, etc.
Interestingly, I think there are somewhat two schools of thought when it comes to “human progress” that is somewhat divided between “Asians” and “Westerners”. One school of thought is that there can be absolute progress. The other school is that humanity is cyclical, that we tend to fuck ourselves over time and time again, rise and fall over and over again. I reckon Yin and The Grudge fall into the latter?
Again, seriously, great comment! In its own way, FUCKING BRILLIANT comment!
lol kai and rick u guyz r dum
check wikipedia u fools, wut lolly and jeremiah are saying is true
This is sad beyond belief :( The only thing that made me feel some comfort was seeing the compassion of the ladies in the picture, and the compassion of the comments here for the animals’ suffering. Hoping the person who did this will understand some day.
My brain hurts…
this kind of pedantic argument is not my forte.
I do want to say this,
Jeremiah, you were right about the famous rich dude in America getting his shit handed to him. That is a big problem in China. At least, that is my feeling.
The rest of it? I mean… common… I know China’s kind of ugly, and it’s been known to fuck up fairly often… But some dude killing four kittens and it becoming a popular news story on the internet is not exactly grounds to condemn the nation. Just… relax, calm down. Give China a break.
You guys have good points on the bad aspects of China, some of them I agree with. BUT, this is not an time or place to bring those up. This kid is not the government, not China, and not anything. He’s a piece of shit that needs execution. We need to feel pissed off that this happened. Absolutely. But can you blame China for it? Blame Mao Ze Dong for it? That is just a bit extreme.
You know, I have a dog in China. Saved it’s life when my Chinese room-mate dropped it off at my house sick with Distemper cause he never got it shots. My room-mate is from the country side, and I love him, but I swear to god if I didn’t also love that dog he would have chopped that dog up for dinner. He also spits on my floor in my house. But he’s still a awesome dude. Just has different… priorities than me.
Why am I saying this? Well, I guess what I really want to say is that I’ve lived in China as a foreigner for a bit now, and I’ve gotten a stick up my ass about a lot of things. It’s a different country with different problems. Maybe you can call that “Culture Shock”. But I got over it. My room mate wants to cook my dog and spit on my floor and smack at the dinner table? What ever, I am not going to call him a horrible person because of it.
Maybe you guys* need to get over your culture shock. Go find something you love about this country again. Something tells me you are in sore need of it.
*Anyone who finds a connection with China being fuck all and a stupid sadist killing 4 kittens.
In the grand scheme of things, believe it or not… There is a connection.
And to be honest, an intellectual joust from time to time is more than welcomed, whatever the occasion might be.
In this world of prefab answers and mind-set, it’s refreshing, challenging and stimulating.
The Grudge
XXX
“Exposing the ugly and the nasty for the world to see and ponder at since… 2010, the year we made contact.”
I appreciate the comments thus far. Most are enlightening and intriguing. however, I think what most people are missing is the underlying question. If most chinese are offended by such behavior, and I agree most feel some mpathy towards these animals, then why is it nothing more than a news story? Where is the investigation? Where is the voice of the Chinese demanding changes to the laws that address the issue? Where is the government official giving a press conference condemning the act and assuring the citizens that he/she will do evrything possible to make sure it does not happen again? I believe the point others were making by bringing up governmental policies and certain sociological patterns in Chinese behavior was to try to address WHy it happened and WHY nothing is changing. I have heard others tell me for many years in China, especially the younger generation that i teach, that China is “progressing”. But, you fail to understand that without a true and free analysis into one’s history and one’s past you can never progress. How can man progress towards something if he doesn’t know where he has been? And you cannot deny that fact. I have 18 year old students who do not even know why taiwan is seperate from China. they don’t even know Tianamen protests occurred. It is not about denial anymore, it is an outright and blatant erasure of one’s history. You can decry the arrogance of foreigners all you want. But, we do not hide our history, be it the cruelty of slavery, the oppression of women, or the horrors of colonialism. We accept those tragedies so that we CAN progress. I think that is the issue that others try to raise when they insert other arguments not directly correlated to the abuse of animals.
“Every generation is a new nation on its own.”
You’ve seen the light cmfeirs!
Again, because you have unreasonable expectations that do not account for the circumstances/context of the situation. Nevermind that animal abuse cases are very rarely investigated and solved throughout the rest of the world, the simple fact here is that it just isn’t deemed a priority here just as it often isn’t elsewhere. A lot of it has to do with lazy good-for-nothing cops who do nothing but sip tea and smoke cigarettes at a desk all day, but a lot of it also has to do with the fact that the laws aren’t clear on this and there’s rarely enough evidence to go on (amongst tons of other things).
So the next thing is, why aren’t there laws yet? The best way to understand that is ask yourself: why did animal rights laws take so long to enact in other countries? Because the populace, for a long time, had other things they felt were more important to legislate. Likewise with China. It’s a developing country! This is what Yin’s comment above really touches upon. What is going to preoccupy your mind more, having enough money to send your kid to school or making sure stray animals have laws and police investigators? Certain things progress at different rates and you can’t understand why without looking at the context/circumstances of the situation. You can’t take a snapshot of a moment in time and judge it in a vacuum.
Is there progress in animal rights activism in China? I’d definitely say so! The internet alone has been a huge force in bringing Chinese people together to publically censure the mistreatment of animals. You have schoolgirls organizing people to go down to Guangdong to intercept shipment of cats used for food! Did this stuff happen 10, 20, 30 years ago? No! THIS IS PROGRESS! Again, it isn’t at the speed WE’D like it to be, but it is progress NONETHELESS. As Rick said above, let China go through its steps. The West went through their’s and China, through its horrible luck and self-inflicted catastrophes, needs to go through their’s.
You’re veering off the topic and into a criticism of the Chinese government’s revisionism, which is a criticism we all share here. There isn’t even a need for you to admonish us to not deny the fact.
The interesting thing here is that you’re guilty of the same problem. The reason you conclude there is no progress and look down upon the Chinese for such is because you haven’t engaged in a true and free analysis of Chinese history and China’s past. So I ask you as well: How can man (you) progress if he doesn’t know where he has been? This all ties back into the lack of context we’re seeing in comments like Jeremiah’s and lolly’s.
This is naive. The West does hide its history. It has done so, does so, and will do so. Some of what is hidden is uncovered, scrutinized, accepted, condemned, and then taught so that people can learn and progress from them. That process sometimes happens quickly, sometimes slowly. Sometimes it happens in the same era, sometimes it happens in an era much later. If Europeans and Americans can only come to reject slavery hundreds of years after they practiced it, I’m sure you can give China and the Chinese government some more time to reverse their stance on things like Tiananmen.
Likewise, it isn’t as China hasn’t accepted, learned from, and progressed from the horrors of its own history. Despite still being less than their Western counterparts, the lot of women in China has improved dramatically over the past 100 years. There’s no more foot-binding, right? Disastrous communist economic ideology has largely given way to ruthless and imperfect capitalism, right? Yadda yadda yadda…
This is exactly what I meant when I said some of you people are selective in what you see and don’t see. This is exactly what I meant when I said some of you divorce context from the issues. Progress occurs not when people demand, criticize, and condemn, but when people seek to understand the situation, causes, issues and offer realistic, reasonable, and CONSIDERED solutions and suggestions.
KAI’s COMMENTS:
“Why aren’t there laws yet? The best way to understand that is ask yourself: why did animal rights laws take so long to enact in other countries?”
“Let China go through its steps. The West went through their’s.”
“If Europeans and Americans can only come to reject slavery hundreds of years after they practiced it, I’m sure you can give China and the Chinese government some more time to reverse their stance on things like Tiananmen.”
“I personally think China isn’t actively trying to destabalize the world but rather doing what any country would do and DOES do: look out for its own interests.”
“I don’t really appreciate people going around insinuating that this is uniquely Chinese or having airs about them that really shitty stuff like this doesn’t happen elsewhere”
Kai, can you really not see what you’re doing? This is your security blanket. Everytime a news article comes up about inhumane actions in China, you immediately whip out your “it happens in the west too!”
Dude, this is not about the WEST! Okay? This is about China. Every time you bring up the West, it’s a conscious or sub-conscious ploy on your part to somehow diminish the inhumanity of the situation. You devalue your own argument every time you make this kind of argument.
Are you really so blind? Can you really not see what you’re doing?
You’re afraid to look at your country for what it is. You need a security blanket when you pull back the curtain, because even you, an ardent apologist, are appalled by what you see.
Don’t hold China up to the west. Most especially, do not hold China up to the U.S. You defeat yourself this way. You always claim, “China needs time, China needs time. Other countries have had time, give China time.”
China’s had roughly 5,000 years. The U.S. has had roughly 200. The U.S. got it done. China didn’t.
In the future, please don’t use the U.S. or the west as your litmus. You shoot yourself in the foot every time you do it.
A final thought. You claim the outrage that Chinese people feel towards this news article is indicative of the majority of China’s population. If that were so, we wouldn’t be here now discussing the issue in english on a pre-dominantly english speaking website. We’d be discussing it on an official (chinese) website for animal protection, which had the power of law behind it to support the moral convictions you claim to possess.
P.S. Your “less censorship” argument was hilarious. Chinese people are exposed to more information than ever before simply because your government hasn’t found a way to successfully regulate the internet. Yet.
When your government isn’t rewriting the history books about Tianamen Square (now called the Tianamen “accident”), they’re butchering protestors in Tibet and Xingjiang, all in the name of harmony and good-will. Meanwhile, places like facebook, tweeter, youtube, etc… are getting blacklisted because they refuse to report your communist government’s “version” of the news.
And in place of these sites you’re getting shit like Green Dam put in, a tool to monitor and regulate every facet of your internet life.
Let’s not even touch base on CCTV, the People’s Daily, or your local news broadcasts, all of which are directly controlled by your communist government.
No sir, Kai, your “less censorship” argument doesn’t fly with me. Not by a damn sight. Not when your government arrests 80 year old women and subjects them to re-education labor camps after they “applied” to that same government for the right to protest at the pre-designated olympic sites.
Jeremiah,
No, everytime someone starts damning the entirety of China and Chinese people over a news article about some inhuman thing that happened as if such things are uniquely Chinese, I remind them that it isn’t so and ask them to blame the true culprits instead of the race, country, or culture as a whole.
See above. How can I diminish the inhumanity of the situation when I openly agree it is inhuman? The ploy here is you confusing my disagreement with you wrongly attributing this to all China and Chinese with defending the inhumanity of abusing kittens. How many times do I have to say this? The fact that I have repeatedly said it and you repeatedly try to confuse the two is precisely the intellectual dishonesty you are accused of.
Everytime you engage in this deception is an insult to our intelligence. Moreover, you repeatedly deceiving yourself with straw man versions of me is an insult to your own intelligence. Dude, READ. Better yet, go back, re-read my first response to you, and address each of those points. It is suspicious why you keep avoiding it and instead keep going on these tired, repetitive attacks.
I think it is obvious that I feel the same way about you.
Yawn, the “you’re an apologist and this accusation alone is sufficient to win me this argument!” tactic again.
Ha, and you’re still making assumptions about “my” country. Seriously, tell me what it is that makes you think China is “my” country? Is it because I look Chinese in my Gravatar? Talk about jumping to conclusions!
Wait, aren’t YOU the one who is holding up China to the West and the US? Aren’t you the one who is damning China and the Chinese because they’re not up to the standards of the West and the Americans?
Curious, eh?
I thought you told me not to hold China up to the West and “most especially” not the US? Aren’t you doing exactly that?
Look, you need to read the earlier comments made by myself, Rick, Yin, etc. You act as if the United States was primordial goo 200 some years ago and managed to evolve to where they are now all on their own. Then you falsely compare this to the Chinese primordial goo that hasn’t evolved to American levels despite having a ~4800 year head start. This is laughable and it is completely divorced from any understanding of not just history but logic as well. Seriously, I’ll give you another chance, try rethinking that 5000 vs. 200 year argument.
What? What does discussing this issue in English on a pre-dominantly English language website have anything to do with the fact that the fact that Chinese people feel outrage towards this phenomenon? What does our discussion here have anything to do with Chinese websites for animal protection? They exist, but that doesn’t mean we necessarily have to be on there. Do you read Chinese, Jeremiah? If you do, you can run a search and find tons of pro-animal rights Chinese websites and activists. Seriously, this entire paragraph is just mind-boggling.
“My” government again, eh? It’s funny how you seem eager for the Chinese government to regulate the internet. You seem vested in proving yourself right about the Chinese instead of actually hoping and fighting for progress and improvement. Your attitude here is basically “Well, any progress you’ve made is just because you haven’t fucked up yet…but you will! Why? Because you’re CHINESE!”
Real smooth.
Oh, “my” government again! Actually, the common English translation is “incident” not “accident.” Also, it’s “Twitter” not “Tweeter”, and they’re not blacklisted because they “refuse to report ['my'] communist government’s ‘version’ of the news. It’s because they’re trying to control the information propagated by other sources that they may find objectionable. It very much is censorship, Jeremiah, but it is apparent that I’m more informed about these things you speak of than yourself and not just because I know the actual names and what’s going on. You really need to do more research with more sources before making your conclusions, Jeremiah. The ignorance and deficiency of critical thinking you bring to the table when you invoke these factoids is embarrassing.
Reading appears to task that you’re not particularly suited for, so here’s a video from The Guardian, made by a journalist I had coffee with just this past Sunday. It is an example of an understanding and presentation of an incident you mentioned that is far more respectable than your own: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jul/20/urumqi-protests-han-uighur
Remember what I said about that “Christmas list of grievances”? Yeah. I love how this started from condemning some sick psycho animal torturer and snowballed into condemnation about anything you can think of in order to justify your contempt for China and the Chinese.
Your agenda here is to argue for why the Chinese don’t have your respect and likely don’t deserve anyone else’s. My disagreement with you is with your agenda, self-righteousness, categorical contempt, and lousy arguments (Not Found, lolly, are you paying attention? If so, I’d appreciate if you stop thinking I’m denying the inhumanity of animal abuse.).
And again, “my” communist govenrment?
You really don’t get it, do you? It’s all or nothing, black or white, for you, isn’t it? You don’t demand progress, you demand magical transformations. 40-50 years ago, the censorship in China was so bad, people couldn’t even IMAGINE applying to protest they were so scared. Nowadays, it is still far from what we want, but at least they’re daring. At least Chinese people aren’t keeping mum looking over their shoulder afraid of their neighbors reporting them for counter-revolutionary thought. Chinese today enjoy unprecedented freedom in the history of the PRC with regards to voicing discontent and disagreement with the government. My statement is true. Your reference to the pre-designated Olympic protest cite is factual, but your use of that as proof that the state of censorship as a whole has not improved “by a damn sight” is WRONG.
Here’s another example of the fallacy you are using: American civil rights has not improved, not by a damn sight. Not when the American government keeps prisoners in Gitmo, subjecting them to waterboarding, and suspension of their constitutionally guaranteed rights after they have been suspected of involvement with terrorist activities and a change of “definition.”
I’m using this American example not to deflect attention from what is going on in China. I’m using it to demonstrate the fallacy in your argument. I’m using it to demonstrate how your conclusions aren’t sufficiently supported by your premises.
Jeremiah, have you noticed that I go through your comments point by point, answering and refuting them point by point? You don’t go back to these points to defend yourself, you just kinda try to find more criticisms and examples to throw at us. To this point, I still don’t think you get what we’re really objecting to. This isn’t about China’s problems, which we both agree are many and horrible. This is about YOU and the attitude YOU represent.
Don’t blure the line, Kai. You don’t know dick about me or my personal life. I didn’t say China is bad and that the whole world should shit on it.
I said you’ve got a long fucking way to go, and every incident of animal abuse, trounced civil liberties, and government genocide confirm this.
My wife (who is Chinese), my friends (who are Chinese) and my colleagues (who are Chinese) can all recognize this without trying to sugar-coat it. Why can’t you?
As for saying China is “your country,” do you really want me to break it down for you?
1.) I can’t see your retard avatar, gravatar, or whatever the fuck you want to call it.
2.) It’s clear you were not born or raised in China. You are of Han descent, but were most likely born in the U.S. or educated there for a substantial period of time.
Growing up you felt alienated, and spent most of your time hanging out with asian cliques in school, because you felt isolated or seperated, or felt that all the big bad white kids in school looked at you like the Chinese nerd who only had friends when it was test time.
Your chinese language skills probably suck, your written skills probably suck worse. You came to China to get back in touch with your roots. Problem is, in your heart of hearts, you are ashamed of your mother land. That’s why you can’t be objective with your criticism.
Being from the U.S., you must know americans are born to hate themselves. We are raised being reminded every moment of the mistakes we’ve made in the past. How we murdered poor indians and stole their land, how we built our great country on the backs of slaves. How our women suffered and had to fight for their rights to vote. How we went to Vietnam in an unjustified war and killed too many innocent people on both sides.
And while we are born to hate ourselves, so too are we born to love. Because we see the past so clearly, we so clearly understand just how far we have truly come.
You don’t have that objectivity Kai. Some people in China do. Most don’t. That’s why you struggle. After 5,000 years you still struggle to catch up.
Like all countries, China has the potential for greatness. Unfortunately, her road will be far harder than it has to be, as long as there are people like you at the wheel.
Jeremiah,
Likewise, you don’t know dick about me or my personal life either, but weren’t you the one who came out guns ablaze talking about “my” government and what I’m up to?
Let’s take a look at some of your previous comments:
5,000 years of “civilization” at it’s best.
China, this is why you will never be a world power. This is why you are 5,000 years old and are still nothing more than a “developing country.”
The kind lady and her family are the minority here, not the majority.
The U.S. gained all that it has in less than 200 years. She became the greatest country the world has ever known, and her people are strong and they’re free. China’s had 5,000 years to get it right. Where is she now? How much longer until she succeeds?
etc. etc. etc.
I think I rightfully identified your attitude as contempt for China.
And we’ve been saying the same thing AND we’ve been telling you that we’ve been saying the same thing. You’re not asking for us to agree that China has a long way to go, you’re asking us to tolerate your self-righteous arrogance and contempt.
You’re back to square one. Where are we trying to sugar-coat it?
Yes.
You mean you can’t see the little photo of me that’s attached to every one of my comments here? That’s not likely, unless you’ve turned off all images in your browser, which would preclude you from seeing this post.
Oh, so you’re FINALLY acknowledging that you might have made a mistake in assuming I’m Chinese and that the PRC government is “my” government?”
LoL, nice, ad hominem attacks. Way to bring out the big guns and justify everything you’ve been saying.
LoL, I’m going to have to interrupt you with: “You don’t know dick about me or my personal life.” Funny how you get all touchy about it but do it to others. Double-standards, right?
Cue dramatic music. Dude, you have a really romanticized notion of yourself.
LoL!
Dude, you’re all over the place. I’m now the person driving the development of China? What am I, Jeremiah? Am I Chinese? Am I just of Han descent? Am I born here or in America? Did I study in America? Is the CCP my government? Just what’s going on? You seem to think you know a lot about me and my personal life, but can’t seem to make up your mind about the particulars! Oh my!
BTW, it’s amusing (though wholly expected) to see that you evaded all the previous points with a casual “don’t blur the line”. So convenient that one is.
dude, you seriously need to go watch some uncensored Disney movies and enjoy them.
btw Jeremiah, if what you say is true, I feel sorry for your wife and friends. You’re being a closet assho. Not to mention one negative lousy fucktard, unless of course you’re a regular miss sunshine outside this place.
Also, what if we insinuate you as a rice chasing loser….nevermind we all can figure out shit on your personal life from the things you say too.
Good question. However, when I was living in the inner city in America. A black guy was shot down. There was no investigation or news story. In fact, is took 40 minutes for the police to come, because it was a “bad” area of the city. Can I say? Why don’t Americans care? Why doesn’t the government do something? Is it a reflection of the inhumanity of Americans? See, it’s not fair to generalize.
Granted, I will say that history in China is a bit tainted. However, young people are learning more and more about China’s history. Including me…
Oh and American history classes need a lot of improvement. Black History, Asian History and a lot of other history is not taught equally across the states. How about the real tragedies like human testing, MK ULTRA, Shit in hamburgers and many other things that Americans don’t know about?
What im saying is that condemning all Chinese impulsively is not right.
1.) Which “inner-city” were you living in? I doubt you’ve ever stepped foot inside the U.S. before.
2.) For a country that just freely voted in a black president, I find it more and more amusing that Chinese continue to use “racism” as a crutch in their support of the racism and inequality currently hapening within mainland China.
When you:
a.) have the right to vote for your own leaders, and b.) vote in a minority
THEN we can have a discussion about the U.S. and China’s differences/similarities in race relations.
Until then… you have no foundation for your arguments.
One more thing… for all of you who fail to understand it. There is animal cruelty in the U.S. But we also have laws to protect those animals, and laws to punish those who would harm them.
We have racism in the U.S. But the U.S. government does not open fire and shoot minorities in the face when they protest it’s laws or policies. And they do not whitewash, erase, change, or censor news about the fact afterwards.
In addition, though racism may still have a small presence within the United States, the United States is in no way bound by these flawed beliefs.
The U.S. is the only country in world history to freely vote in a minority as it’s leader. I’d say our track record with minorities is leaps and bounds beyond that of the P.R.C.
Regards,
~J
Jeremiah,
For the fact that he’s referring to, I don’t think whether he has stepped in the U.S. before is relevant. An American doesn’t need to have stepped in China to know that police brutality in China is wrong. Likewise, a New Yorker doesn’t need to have lived in Los Angeles to criticize LAPD for having had too many incidents of racially motivated police brutality.
Chinese people are not using racism in America as a crutch to support racism and inequality in mainland China. They mostly invoke it when some American person comes around and pretend as if racism is unique to Chinese culture and oh-so-tolerant America is blemish-free. On the contrary, racial issues persist to this day in America, or have you not been following up with the Henry Louis Gates Jr. story? Or this one?
Again, this is not about deflecting attention, it’s about intolerant attitudes. The Chinese people who usually invoke this defense do so not because they’re trying to justify racism in China, it’s because they find your self-righteous attitude unpalatable. Often, it is because of how you breach the subject that triggers this defensiveness. Other times, this defensiveness springs to action without cause simply because the Chinese person fears and assumes you’re yet another self-righteous foreigner out to bash them.
Am I making myself clear? This is about your attitude and method of communication with Chinese people. This is not a denial of the validity of valid criticisms. Stop conflating the two. Finding you annoying does not make you right. It most likely means you’re just annoying.
This is bullshit, equivalent to “you can’t talk shit about us unless you’re one of us.” Would you buy the ultimatum that you have to:
a. Have experienced life in China as a Chinese person;
b. Had your adopted stray cat’s kittens mutilated;
BEFORE you can comment about how representative it is of Chinese society as a whole?
Seriously, you’ve got some fucked up double-standards in who is allowed to comment on what.
We know this. What you fail to understand is that China hasn’t progressed to that point and why 5000 years of history is irrelevant to why it hasn’t yet.
Not now, but such things used to happen in the States. That it doesn’t now (largely) is a testament to the different extent of development between China and the US, one you consistently dismiss when convenient to your argument to do so.
Many Americans would disagree with you on the precense of racism in the United States being “small”. What would you say to them?
I’m pretty sure it isn’t technically true that the U.S. is the ONLY country in world history to have freely voted in a minority as it’s leader. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that the American track record with minorities is better than China’s current track record. If there is someone, could you point out who it is and what they said that led you to that conclusion?
Jeremiah, You’ve wasted enough time to debate with him , can’t you see he is the person just enjoying arguing with people, he can’t accept any opoinon which is different than his,he wants to show he is the only real god that whatever he says is the only truth. He enjoys the feeling to make people mad ,you don’t need to give him that pleasure to fullfill his sick desire.
Hah, you are a rice chaser… *shakes fist*
Btw, having claims of chinese friends and wife doesnt mean shit.
Exactly man. Although we shouldn’t be discussing it because it is not relevant to the topic of discussion…but wait, what are we talking about? A Saddist Chinese kitten killer or Chinese kitten killers or All Chinese People? I’m confused.
Exactly right. It’s all relative. MKULTRA, Tuskegee, CIA slanging drugs, American wars.
Well…my views HAS ALWAYS been that…China is fucked. But is America really the positive good force image that it always tries to project. Or is America the invisible empire? Does it really matter?
Note: When I say America. I simply mean the evil side of America. There is a lot of good. But seriously, America does have very dark side. Perhaps I’m just tripping? Naw, it’s all connected…THE SYSTEM…THE CONTROL GRID!
1984!!!!!!!!!!! EVERWHERE.
ABUSER=A HORNY MALE CAT WHO WANT TO TRIGGER HEAT IN CAT MOM.
ok, chinese ASSHOLES [or whoever you are from] try to do that to my litter and i swear that your kid’s sexual organs will pop out their eyes!
Shame to admit, when I was a kid,I and many of my friends are quite enjoy the prosess of torture insects, but never abuse vertabrates… When I was a teenager,I always like to fight with others…
Maybe crulty is part of human nature? Especially small kids. Or just I and my friends are abnormals.
[quote]For the fact that he’s referring to, I don’t think whether he has stepped in the U.S. before is relevant.[/quote]
It’s always relevant when someone lies, Kai. Even in China.
[quote]Chinese people are not using racism in America as a crutch to support racism and inequality in mainland China.[/quote]
“The John” was.
[quote]The Chinese people who usually invoke this defense do so not because they’re trying to justify racism in China, it’s because they find your self-righteous attitude unpalatable.[/quote]
The same way many people here find your self-righteous attitude unpalatable?
[quote]Seriously, you’ve got some fucked up double-standards in who is allowed to comment on what.[/quote]
I didn’t tell him he wasn’t allowed to comment. I simply ask that people who aren’t allowed to vote for their leaders, and who have no history of freely electing minorities into positions of power, please kindly refrain from making charges of racism towards others.
[quote]What you fail to understand is that China hasn’t progressed to that point and 5000 years of history is irrelevant to why it hasn’t yet.[/quote]
Time is never irrelevant when we’re discussing why someone hasn’t reached a certain stage of development, Kai. Indeed, it’s primarily a discussion of time. For both people and countries, development is measured by time, circumstance, and progress.
We cannot discount time just because you wish to.
[quote]Not now, but such things used to happen in the States. That it doesn’t now (largely) is a testament to the different extent of development between China and the US, one you consistently dismiss when convenient to your argument to do so.[/quote]
1.) The key-word is used to, Einstein.
2.)I’ve not ignored the differences in development at all. It’s that point precisely that I wanted to make. The U.S.’s progress vs. China’s, and the amount of time it has taken for each to reach their respective place, or lack thereof, in modern civilization.
[quote]Many Americans would disagree with you on the precense[sic] of racism in the United States being “small”. What would you say to them?[/quote]
I would say to them check the vote numbers on our current president, and check the numbers on his approval rating versus our last president. And rejoice in the fact that in the U.S. we don’t TALK about progress, we show it.
[quote]I’m pretty sure it isn’t technically true that the U.S. is the ONLY country in world history to have freely voted in a minority as it’s leader.[/quote]
Dispute my statements with facts, Kai. Isn’t that what you demand of me? Do it yourself, then, hypocrite.
[quote]I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that the American track record with minorities is better than China’s current track record.[/quote]
I am. The U.S.’s track record is light years beyond China’s when it comes to minorities.
If you don’t believe me, check your precious facts. The U.S. hasn’t mowed down any minorities in a hail of machine-gun fire recently, like say, China has. What, with those pesky Xinjiang (and Tibetans) and all.
[quote]If there is someone, could you point out who it is.[/quote]
Yes. Its me.
[quote]Oh, so you’re FINALLY acknowledging that you might have made a mistake in assuming I’m Chinese and that the PRC government is “my” government?”[/quote]
Kai, I never thought you were a chinese passport holder. Your grasp of the english language is testament enough to that.
I did you a favor when I called you Chinese, and referred to the PRC as your government. It is what you want, after all.
Your blood is Han. Your brain is Han. Your logic, your reasoning, your deflection, your very nature is Han. Your identity crisis is typical of a foreign-born Han.
I honestly just did you a favor and referred to you as Chinese. I thought that, at least, would give you some sort of comfort. I thought it would stroke your fragile ego, it would help to avoid shattering your unsure sense of self for everyone here to see.
[quote]Dude, you’re all over the place. I’m now the person driving the development of China? What am I, Jeremiah? Am I Chinese? Am I just of Han descent? Am I born here or in America? Did I study in America? Is the CCP my government? Just what’s going on? You seem to think you know a lot about me and my personal life, but can’t seem to make up your mind about the particulars! Oh my![/quote]
See my response above. I can’t pin-point who you are, because YOU can’t pin-point who you are.
Are you American? Are you Chinese? You tell me, Kai. It’s not my problem. It’s yours. I can give my answer straight out.
You’re an american. It’s what your passport says.
But you, yourself, you aren’t sure. You’re confused, Kai. Don’t act like it’s anyone else’s problem but your own. And don’t call anyone else out for failing to realize what you yourself have not realized.
In the end, we all agree on the same thing. China has light years to go in her endless struggle to catch up.
Is it possible? Will she ever get there? Probably not. I think we all hope so. But as long as there are people like you, Kai, people to apologize and deflect the problems, then China will be where she’s always been. In the middle. Zhongguo.
Jeremiah,
He wasn’t lying. If you recall, he wrote:
Have you seriously never heard of minorities being the victims of violence that don’t get reported or investigated? Have you seriously never heard of cops in America taking their sweet time to the scene of a crime in the inner cities? If so, you probably aren’t very informed about America. Doesn’t Dave Chappel run an entire skit based upon phenomenon similar to this?
Also, you’ve been evading The John’s point. He followed that up with:
The John wasn’t lying. He was referring to a real phenomnon, apparently one that happened in the place he lived. This phenomenon definitely occurs in America just as it occurs in China and other countries. Even if you’ve never heard of it yourself, it’s pretty outrageous that you’re accusing him of lying.
No, he wasn’t. He was admonishing you for making unjustified broad generalizations off individual incidents. Please quote within context what he said that suggests he was justifying Chinese racism with American racism.
Sure, and unlike you, I recognize and understand it.
Oh, so “you’re not allowed to comment unless you meet this irrelevant qualifications of mine?”
Dude, he was using an example of racism in America to show you the idiocy of making generalizations based off of individual incidents. He was saying that even though in that incident, the cops failed to respond in time, follow up on investigation, or the media didn’t give a shit, he wouldn’t use that example to generalize all cops and media or Americans. He’s saying that to show you how wrong it is of you to broaden this kitten abuser into a representation of all of China and Chinese society.
I didn’t say time is irrelevant, I said your gripes with “5000 years of history” is irrelevant. In fact, my arguments against you have all very much stressed how time is important. The thing is, you’re holding up America’s 200 some years as if they achieved everything in a bubble and you hold up China’s 5000 years without any consideration of what has happened in China during those 5000 years and how it led up to where they are now.
I used to think you were just being intellectually dishonest when you use these little catch-phrases. Now I think you’re just stupid.
See above.
Please go read those CNN articles I previously linked to you.
I do dispute your statements with facts, Jeremiah. You just ignore and then evade them. The sentence you’re referring to is factual in two ways: 1) America ISN’T technically the first nation to freely elect a minority leader. 2) “Pretty sure” IS a factual representation of my suspicions at the time.
Nations that have had ethnic minority leaders include Canada, the UK, Spain, USSR, etc. Here’s a paper on the subject from Stanford University.
Sorry, I wrote that sentence incorrectly. It should’ve read: “I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that the American track record with minorities ISN’T better than China’s current track record.” I imagined if you’ve been following along the conversation, you would’ve known what I meant to write. Given context, it doesn’t really make sense for me to have said that, would it?
Please go talk to Tania Branigan of The Guardian. I’d love for you to offer up some facts of Uighurs and Tibetans being “mowed down” in “a hail of machine-gun fire.” I’ll help you out a bit. You can find a collection of media reports on Urumqi here.
Strange, I thought your repeated insistence of the CCP Chinese government evidence that you HAVE thought that. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise. How could I not be a Chinese passport holder but have the CCP as “my” government? Just admit you made a stupid assumption, thank you.
Ah, yet another example of you thinking you know dick about me and my personal life.
WOW, more incorrect assumptions! I love how you keep trying and trying to peg me as this or that. It seems like your whole argument against me rests upon me being Chinese.
Oh brother…
One minute you’re declaring my blood as Han and me being a foreign-born Han and the next minute you’re flip-flopping back to “I can’t pin-point who you are.” Which is it, Jeremiah? Do you know who or what I am or don’t you? Earlier, you were pin-pointing me as an apologist, now you say you can’t pin-point me? Like I said, you’re all over the place.
Given how much time and energy you’ve dedicated to speculating about my nationality and ethnicity, it certainly sounds like it’s your problem.
Hm, okay Mr. Freud. Instead of responding to the points outlined in my first response to you, you’ve again just tried going on the attack again, writing 8 paragraphs talking to yourself about what you think my identity is and how I feel about my identity.
Are you SERIOUS?
No, we don’t agree that China has light years to go in her endless struggle to catch up. However, this statement is telling, and I dare say, evidence of what I accused you of: categorical contempt for the Chinese. I agree that China has a long ways to go but I don’t think nor do I damn China to an “endless struggle” to catch up. You certainly believe it will be an endless struggle, don’t you Jeremiah? Why? Because they’re CHINESE?
It doesn’t really sound like you hope so, what with “endless struggle” and “probably not” and all the other comments you’ve made.
Yawn. Can you please come up with a different false insult to throw at me next time? I’m getting bored of this one.
Jeremiah, now you are making me annoyed. I HAVE lived in the states. How would I even know about MK Ultra? Chinese don’t learn that locally bro. I lived in a terrible part of Chicago. It did happen and it was screwed up. But, people like you will swear that you country is perfect. Your justification: It’s better than China. What im saying is… WHY are you asking China to face up, when you can’t do it yourself. If we all can, then why are we arguing.
Jeremiah, if you stop abusing Kai, maybe he’ll show you how to quote stuff properly (hint: I think you have to use angle brackets)
Also, I want to say that Kai, has been very rational in his posts. It seems that you you dudes go over board and then don’t back yourselves up. If Chinese are what you describe, then why are you staying here. No seriously why? According to you, Chinese has a looooooooong and horrible struggle ahead. So, why stay here?
To quote Kai: “Oh brother…”
Hey! This sh*t is starting to get ridiculous.
A new topic is needed.
Some of us like to watch a train wreck happening.
Jeremiah, thank God your ‘chinese’ wife’s and supposed ‘chinese friends’ english skills are limited with your incessant negative bitching.
They probably just nod, admit and agree so they dont have to hear anymore.
He seems like the type who likely snaked his wife from the countryside with promises of a passport as opposed to personality, and teaches English hence the inability to move out of the country he so apparently hates. It’s unfortunate, that kind of folk, quite a sad situation to realize your life is a failure, and end up stewing in a pot of hate for the fact your situation forces you to be somewhere you don’t want to be.
He *definitely* reminds me of a staunch republican.
Does anyone else find it extremely ironic that Jeremiah repeatedly proclaims the greatness of American free speech, repeatedly expresses contempt for China’s lack of free speech…and then immediately denies Chinese people the right to compare themselves to America, criticize America, or talk about America until they meet some arbitrary requirement of his?
And he has the gall to accuse others of hypocrisy? Amazing.
Jeremiah, look, I really think you should go back to the beginning, take a deep breath, and review how this entire thing started and unfolded. Right from your initial comment, you shat upon the entire Chinese people and pre-emptively labeled anyone who disagrees with your shitting to be “apologists.” Do you really think that’s engaging in reasoned discourse? Do you really think your attitude and behavior reflects positively on American ideals and values?
Jeremiah’s been banned from posting further comments.
No, he has not.
maybe his wife finally tires of his bullshit and did something about it.
Peace, liberty and justice for all woohooo!!!!
This just confirms the culprit is a miscreant and a very very poor excuse for a human being. This person is wasting our planets oxygen and taking up space. What a brave mother cat, and also very sad to see at the same time.
hey sometimes I’m just “tripping” out. I really believe people should be allowed to say what they want. I’m accusing you of doing the thing I’m doing.
that’s what you believe it’s cool.
In defense of Jeremaih and others, what many of you fail to understand and why many arguments on this site lead off topic is not a general disgust and contempt for Chinese people but rather the fear that China is not on the PATH to developing and understanding human rights. Kai, you argue that a developing country needs time to progress to catch up, as you put it, to the west. I think what others are trying to convey is that China does not appear to be following that same path and has no desire to. Although you ridicule others for immature postings and illogical arguments, you also show them in your own posts. Your constant response that “let’s look at this incident for what it is, do not condemn the Chinese as they need time to advance as all civilized societies have done” (and yes, I did paraphrase). However, my argument, and I believe the argument of others, is that there is no guarantee that China will ever develop human rights much less animal rights on any large scale. There is no straight line in sociopsycholigical development. Look at some Muslim cultures who have developed a society complete with the public stoning of women and the accusations that rape is a woman’s fault. The fact is the women in those societies, althought perhaps not after it has happened to them, BELIEVE that system to be true and fair. there is no gaurantee China’s development will include any advance in human rights or animal protection. We all, including myself, like to believe that it is a necessary and predictable attachment that comes with economic development. But sadly, it is not. I, and I hope fellow posters, were examining tangents to help explore not only that possibility, but perhaps remedies to guarantee that it is attached to economic development. And just for fun Kai, I would guess you were from the UK, probably born in Shanghai and raised there until maybe 8-10 before either moving to the UK with parents or being sent there to study. Attended an average college in the UK with a non-specialized liberal arts degree. Not that it matters, I just can’t help myself after all the hooha.
cmfeirs,
I disagree. There are people who DO fear this for China and then there are people who DO have a general disgust and contempt for Chinese people. We evaluate each person’s own words to figure out who is who. Now, you’re free to arrive at a different conclusion than me, but my impression of Jeremiah still stands based upon everything I have earlier quoted and responded to. Can you understand or at least accept this?
I know some people feel China is not following the same path and has no desire to. Ironically, these people blast China for following the same path when it does (environmentally destructive industrialization anyone?). I understand further that some people do this not necessarily because they’re hypocrites but because they sincerely wish that China can accomplish the same things without the same ills GIVEN that they have an example to learn from. I understand all this and identify with it very emphatically.
That said, isn’t there something inherently narcisstic and self-rigtheous to expect or demand China follow or desire the same path as their own?
I think so.
And I have absolutely no problem with people quoting them and explaining why they’re immature and illogical. I’m waiting for you to do that.
I don’t think this is a complete sentence. Did you leave something out? By itself, I don’t see how my “constant response” (as you paraphrase it) is immature or illogical.
I don’t think I ever said there IS a guarantee. I’ve said there is clear evidence within China amongst the Chinese that they DO desire greater human rights and even animal rights. This website itself has plenty of testimony to this. This is a good thing, but while desire is necessary for something to be realized, desire alone doesn’t automatically realize things. You’re also forgetting my admonishment that people take a step back and consider what China has gone through, all the setbacks it has experienced in its history.
Different nations and people achieve things at different rates precisely because they’re all dealing with different circumstances. It is more logical and mature to judge a country against its own circumstances than it is to judge it against another country divorced of any consideration of circumstances. The 5000 years preceding today’s China are different from the 5000 years preceding America. Do you understand? Do you agree? If you do, then you shouldn’t be accusing me of thinking something so simple as there being a guarantee.
I absolutely agree! Why do you think I keep admonishing Jeremiah for not acknowledging that progress is subject to setbacks?
Do you think Muslim society will forever be this way? Or do you think they’ll eventually develop beyond this, as much of the West has? Remember, it wasn’t that long ago that the West itself publicly shamed women or blamed women for rape. In fact, many feminists would argue that such things still persist albeit in a different form (i.e. raped women are still stigmatized). The thing is that the West moved beyond it, and who knows how the West will develop in the future.
Development is a continual process. Don’t you think it says something about you when you assert that Muslim society “developed” a society etc. etc.? There are no set end-goals in the development of a society just as there are no set end-goals in evolution. Both are processes that are shaped by their environments. You’re right, Chinese society may pursue an entire divergent path of development than the West, but isn’t it inherently narcissistic and self-righteous to think the West’s path is the “RIGHT” or “PROPER” one?
Now, I happen to think there are many things RIGHT and PROPER about the West, things I’d like to see Chinese society adopt and pursue themselves. In fact, they do. But I still think Jeremiah’s bitching is not out of some fear for the future, but some contempt for China not having gotten where he wants it to be NOW. What do you think?
I agree it is not a necessary attachment with economic development, but I am of the belief there is strong correlation if not causation between them. I’m not the only one, right?
I don’t think Jeremiah’s comments here can be characterized that way. Do you?
What is this obsession with figuring out my background? To oblige you, you’re wrong on all counts.
Finally, cmfeirs, I’ve mentioned this many times before, but please note that I go out of my way to RESPOND and address your points/questions. I think it would be conducive and respectful of you do do the same should you choose to respond. I ask you questions above, I’d like for you to quote and answer them, as doing so will establish clearly what we agree upon so we can actually move the conversation forward. In my experience, intellectual dishonesty is most evident in people who ignore the other person’s points and questions in order to pontifcate further (not saying you, but Jeremiah fits the bill). Thanks.
@Antwerpren
It seems someone has been sucking on Lacan’s teat. That shit is poisonous and will not help you understand the controversy cmfeirs very clearly elucidated.
Clear writing requires clear thinking.
There is no room for pedantry, obscurantism or pomposity.
The topic is China not a Freudian analysis of language as subjective perception.
The topic is Chinese-Western discourse, and language is its medium of exchange.
If you have problems with Lacan’s statements, argue agaisnt his statements, don’t make ad hominem attacks. Why are you so insecure?
My point in quoting Lacan was to show how the discursive space between Kai and Jeremiah may be unnecessary, and how both Kai and Jeremiah may regret that their discourse became so polarized. Yet, through the escalating violence of their argument, they became trapped in their own positions and became prey to the forces they set in motion.
Wow!
I’m not sure how “discursive space” applies to China and I really don’t care.
Your introducing Freudian (a la Lucan) analysis to this post provides no clarification to the issues Kai and Jeremiah were debating.
If Kai and Jeremiah don’t reply then take your psych-babble to another blog.
Stuff like this happens in America too:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/15/tyler-hayes-weinman-charg_n_215653.html
Charles… I know a cow with that name. He would be silly enough to put his real name on the blog too
KAI:
“The Delphie Oracle said I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing.”
-Socrates
RICK IN CHINA:
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split.”
-Robert E. Howard
FOR THOSE WHO INSULTED ME PERSONALLY, AS WELL AS MY WIFE:
“He who strikes the first blow admits he’s lost the argument.”
-Ancient Chinese Proverb
FOR THE HONEST, NON-APOLOGISTS:
“Whoso would be a man, must be a non-conformist.”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Dude, you’re such a joke. I can quote you committing the very sins of each and every one of those quotes, BEFORE the very people you accuse of doing so.
Example 1: Socrates.
And you would know, right?
Example 2: Ancient Chinese Proverb
Not only do you know the “facts” and “truth”, you pre-emptively strike anyone who questions the your “facts” and “truth” as apologists. Who struck first, Jeremiah?
Should I continue?
It almost feels like someone running into a wall and then saying that YOU are stupid.
It looks like I gave you too much credit. You sorry sack of shit. You have to resort to proverbs/quotes to defend yourself after you fail to even hold a discussion. Why aren’t you regurgitating the same hate from post to post?
How the fuck did this happen? One minute people were talking about how evil this animal abuser is, and another minute we are having a 10-page long debate? WTF?
Jeremiah, I hereby solemnly swear that I am NOT a CCP apologist. To prove this I shall say this: CHINA IS FUCKED UP. IT IS A VERY FUCKED UP PLACE AND I’M DEFINITELY VERY GLAD THAT I DON’T LIVE THERE ANYMORE!
Understand? Good, cause now you can go fuck yourself
Whoever did this probably did not like kittens.
MIRACLE DOG SURVIVES SIX-STORY PLUNGE IN BROOKLYN
“A heartless [black] Brooklyn teen was busted today for cruelly tossing a 1-year-old pooch off a six-story housing project roof — a fall the dog miraculously survived after shattering all of its legs and suffering internal injuries, authorities said.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07312009/news/regionalnews/brooklyn/miracle_dog_survives_six_story_plunge_in_182380.htm
The above took place in “civilized” New York. Chinese have no monopoly on cruelty to animals. A famous black athlete was recently sent to prison for killing his dogs that could not fight anymore. Mexicans are often arrested in the US for cock fighting. The cruel, barbaric experiments done on animals in the name of “science” by “civilized” American whites needs no comment.
Yes, China has problems and Chinese must solve them. But remember, China is just one generation away from Third World status. Give China two more generations and many flaws will be eliminated. I’m not so sure about Africa and the Muslim world.
I came here via a link at Kai’s blog. I’m gon get my first dog next month. So excited. And rest assured I won’t slash his throat open.
The problem with China is civil progress, that’s for sure, such as the need for legislation, the volunteer culture, establishment of NGOs, more civil courage to fight injustice and so on and so forth that are not encouraged by today’s social structure, and I don’t think, neither does anybody who can read, that Kai et al. are arguing against that. But I think Kai chose the wrong audience. Long, rational conversations only work with moderate people who don’t automatically sentence to death an entire country and its history whenever horrible things come up. People who start discussions by immediately jumping back 5,000 years, CCP propagandists and Jeremiah alike, should be ignored.
Seriously, reading this blog gives me an impression that some people want to kick random Chinese pedestrians in the nuts every single day simply because they’re evil Chinese.
And man are expat blogs hugely different, seeing personal attacks have flooded this place.
BTW, if I remember correctly, an incident several years ago where a woman killed kittens with her high heels was one of the very first cases of national renrou sousuo.
It caused outrage that swept the Chinese online community and those human flesh engines helped find the woman in the end. Before the incident, renrou sousuo was mainly used to say find out the name of a game somebody played or an anime they watched when they were young. I used it sometimes, on Tianya or game forums.
That incident was seminal for the growth of renrou sousuo.
Another animal abuse story for China
After the success of closing crushworld.net …animal lovers may be interested to know another crush site is operating in China. I hope negative publicity will get it closed too.
http://www.crushheaven.com
Like their predecessor they torture rabbits and cats for entertainment. See their private video section:
password 333026
Some of the images are distressing.
A censored clip is on Youtube here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjQk9cJpJkw
Advert for the work (found searching email addy on google)
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you sick mother fuckers
people make me sick honest to god, get a real fucking job
this is sick
I’m gonna catch these people and do the same thing to them that they did to those poor kittens. That poor Mama kitten. :(
:’((((((((((((((((( I would kill that bestard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wowww, wtf?! people are sooo damn messed uppp!
Whoever posted this pictures is one sick indivual.. Who in their right mind would post such disgusting pictures unless they are infact the one who did these horrid things to the animals.. How else does this person have the best and most graphic pictures.. You people found your kitten killer, he/she is the one who made this page, if you all continue to comment it gives him/her more ammo to do it again and again. This page should be removed and you all should look into this persons background.. In my opinion, your all stupid for even believing that the one who posted this site isn’t the one doing the abuse.. get a life and stop killing animals, that is for the one who made this webpage.. Sickos
wtf that i sad pooor babys i hope the owner dies and his family who does this and its so sad that the mother was acctually licking it to wake up
The news on this site is made up isn’t it?
In either case, prefer a quick and clean culling though. And without bullet holes or feet applied to it. Meat from animals which suffered before death doesn’t cook or taste as well. Do it humanely and don’t waste food pls.
Also don’t upset the mother cat. Thats the least respect you can give for something that provides food for you. Personally prefer leopard foetus though, pets are for the lower end connoisseurs who can’t make the distinction.
I believe in Karma, and if ya do something bad, something bad will happen to you. So I hope this dude gets life in prison if they even know what he looks like. Or he just gets himself bad luck!
I cried so hard when I read this, and saw the pictures… those poor, poor little kittens, and the mother cat… It is so sad, I don’t know how I will ever get this out of my mind, something just has to be done!