Executed Briton Akmal-Shaikh
Please see our earlier post: British Drug Smuggler’s Death Sentence, Netizen Reactions
From Mop:
170 years later, Lin Zexu once again forbids England’s opium!
The highest court has authorised Akmal Shaik’s execution!
The English government’s secret entreaties are useless!
Akmal has been executed by lethal injection!
170 years ago Lin Zexu clearly saw the harm that opium was doing to Guangzhou, searched out all the opium dens, gathered together large amounts of first hand testimonies, and in the nineteenth year of the reign of Daoguang (March 1839) arrived in Guangzhou. On March 19th, Lin Zexu and other officials including Deng Yanzheng summoned thirteen rows of foreign businessmen, and let it be known to them that they were hereby ordered to hand over all of their drugs, and were to never again sell opium, even saying: “As long as there is opium, I will not return, I swear that I won’t stop until the job is finished.”
But the foreign merchants refused to hand over their wares, and after a long struggle, the merchants’ grip was loosened, and all of the opium, approximately 20,000 boxes or 2,370,000 jin, was confiscated. On the twenty second of the fourth month (June 3) it was all burnt on the beach in front of Humen in front of a crowd. In the eighteenth year of the reign of Daoguang, on the fifteenth day of the eleventh month, Lin Zexu was appointed imperial chancellor, and that year, 1839, was the most important year in the history of the banning of opium, and could be said to be Lin Zexu’s most brilliant.
Sometimes Lin Zexu once write a rhyming couplet in his office: “海纳百川有容乃大，壁立千仞无欲则刚”. This couplet’s imagery is vivid, and has a profound message. The first line sternly warns that one should listen to suggestions from all corners, and only then can something be done properly, and an unbeatable position can be assumed. The second is more tempered, when being a government official one must do away with personal wants, and only then can one be unmovable like a mountain, and stand tall. Lin Zexu promoted this kind of energy, commanded respect, and sets an example for his descendants.
And today, 170 years later, an Englishman has once again poured salt in our wounds!!!!!!!!!
Early in the morning of September 12, 2007, Akmal Shaikh of England, on a flight originating from Dushanbe, Turkmenistan, carried 4030 grams of “viper” on an international flight bound for Urumqi’s international airport, in Xinjiang. Upon going through border inspection, our customs officials discovered said “viper” in his carry-on luggage. After inspection, it was discovered to be of 84.2% purity.
Dammit, if you don’t die Akmal, whose soul will we use to honour Lin Zexu’s magnificent deeds?
China isn’t the China of hundreds of years ago!
Almost 200 years later the British government once again is acting out the same part!
But they have forgotten… China isn’t that desolate country any more!
When we banned opium in the past, our country’s power disappeared like the sun at night, when the guns were pointed at our heads, we were as nervous as dogs.
When we ban opium now, our country has the same position on drugs, but the guns of yesteryear are gone, but everyone’s whining.
Comments from Mop:
好想爆管理员的菊花:
Nowadays only we can sell drugs, you foreigners want to come here to sell yours and steal our business? Do you wanna die?
70mph:
Before, Lin Zexu burnt a whole heap of opium, the Brits started a war; today we’ve executed one of them, they can only whine in the background.
whatsoever啦:
That was just an act perpetrated by a single person, why do you have to overstate its significance? Do you want to see the world in chaos? I support the Chinese government’s judgment, and Lin Zexu was a great hero, but there isn’t much connection between the two.
sy_active:
I’d like to know the specific details [of the case]. Why did the English government feel it could meddle [in the case]?
lyg-boy:
What’s the big hype about this… people are executed by firing squad every day… we shouldn’t be attaching great significance to this execution.
a23696:
WHAT IS LZ TALKING ABOUT? COMPARING OUR GLORIOUS MODERN HARMONIOUS SOCIETY WITH THE CORRUPT QING DYNASTY!? YOU SCHEMING BASTARD!
我曾经是传奇:
Drug dealers should be killed, drug users also.
lilalai:
History is always complicated. We’ve gone through hundreds of years of history, and we’re at the same place we were 170 years ago! Old Mao said it best: “Imperialism doesn’t die in our hearts!”
Anonymous user 538851:
Prime Minister Brown, do you think that China is stuck in the times of the Opium war? You are an example of an undeveloped life form, an alien that has undergone genetic mutation, a high school student with the development of a kindergartener, a mongoloid inborn frog head, an abandoned infant at the top of Everest, the turd blocking the toilet, a dark descendant of Africa, hermaphrodite gorilla, a hippo squashed by Noah’s ark, the erupting mouth of a new volcano, the shameless sound of a barking horn, an Eskimo’s disgrace, a superman living with cockroaches, a rotting vegetable, a person made of rubbish who smells, the etymological source of the word “spurned”.
Don’t do drugs. For mind altering experiences, try chinaSMACK personals instead.
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2012 Movie Insults China, Chinese Netizen Reactions 
Chinese Netizen Reactions To Jet Li Becoming Singaporean 
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I support this action. But it is just small show. In Beijing – capital of China, face of China, in Sanlitun, and some other areas, in some nightclubs you can always find a lot of africans selling drugs. Everybody knows about it, but local police does nothing. So it was just a show, nothing to be proud of.
A friend in China was in a city in Sichuan, I think, before he was in the same city as me. He said that there the cheif of police was involved in the drug taking, and the parties were all pretty wild.
Getting caught with drugs in China is about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and knowing the wrong people. But that’s the same as many things in China – you get away with it until it is in somebody’s interests that you don’t.
“Old Laowai”
do you have all your faculties right? Or are you sufferring of some mental illness?
In China, business of drugs is forbidden. Do you think you are better than policemen working in BeiJing SanLintun?
If you are a drug consumer or dealer, it s time for you to quit. Don t try to disturb people with your “racist informations”.
I always walking in Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou main streets, and big pubs gates… people (or person) who always offering me “H-Shish, MArijuana, Extasy,.. and whatever, are not african at all. Look more chinese-muslim, chinese-southern,..and sometimes european french speaking.
Maybe some black nigerians tried to involve into that deals.
So when you claim that killing of that “bretton dealer” is just a show ‘coz african still free in beijing, … you may lost already some mental abilities!
PS: please reduce your drug consumption and you will be less racist.
Hardlifeinchina, You must be Chinese right??, Because old laowai is right, Everything in China is just for show, when so many Africans and Xinjiang get away with selling drugs
Old Laiwai is right. Many blacks are in Guangzhou and Donguan selling all that shit. But you are right too. There are many Xianjiang muslims doing the same. Its always one or the other.
“…Do you think you are better than policemen working in BeiJing SanLintun…?
I would have to say that a fresh dog turd is better than policemen ‘working’ anywhere in China.
No, no, let me correct that for you-
a fresh dog turd is better than a policeman anywhere.
At least the dog turd can fertilize the grass. You have to kill the cop first.
“…Do you think you are better than policemen working in BeiJing SanLintun…?
I would have to say that a fresh dog turd is better than policemen ‘working’ anywhere in China.
Funny first time…not so funny the second time
Dude lived in Beijing for two years, you need to see the optometrist, theyre as african as you are blind mate.
Hmm – nothing racy about speaking the truth:
I was living almost 10 yrs in Beijing, and starting from 2003 I noticed a pretty huge stronghold of black guys in Beijing “Whaaazzz up, ma friend? ‘anna buy soooom sh’it? ‘asch-isch?”.
Dude, I am not a racist at all – but Beijing nearly made me one..
Sad but true.
If seeing a handful of black guys selling drugs was “nearly” enough to make you a racist, it’s already too late.
Dude, u really know nothing about Africans. Do u know how many Africans executed by the Chinese government each year on drug related cases? I’m sure u don’t. They never make it public, but if u ae friends with any African, ask them and they’d tell u. Most African governments don’t give a crap about their ppl and just cuz one briton was killed, they want to make a big noise. I support the Chinese drug law and execution process of the offenders. I hope this can make those guys have a change of mind. Yes, i’m African and i’m nto proud of our tarnished reputation in China, but i must also speak the truth.
Dude, selling drugs in China = cruising for a Darwin Award. It’s like walking down the street screaming “I hate niggas” in South Los Angeles, or wearing drag to a biker bar in Kansas. It’s just asking for it.
LOL, sad but true. It was either the Africans or Uighurs, at least in Shanghai.
Keep in mind though, this would not be a show or anything other than a routine drug dealer execution had the Western government not made a big stink about it.
The Western government knows this too: China does not play to political correctness especially those coming from external pressures, and acts largely in its self interest. By spilling this out to the open rather than negotiating behind the doors the British government only ensured this drug mule’s execution. Anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to conclude this.
The question is really for the British government: Why would Gordan Brown choose this time to bash China knowing that such public interference would certainly kill the drug mule? Does he really care about Shaikh? The answer is NO: he and rest of the British nation don’t give a shit about Shaikh (who lived in Poland for the last 15 yrs). Brown, much like the Chinese government, is hoping that nationalism generated through his idiotic pleadings would help his currently crappy political stance. The funny thing is it may have backfired: many brits actually think the drug mule deserves to die.
The OP is well-off target there – good to see some of the netziens pointing that out.
There wasn’t anything secret about the British government’s entreaties – they did it all publicly to make it look as if they were doing something. I suspect that the British government knows that China doesn’t execute foreigners lightly, and that the case against this guy must have been extremely strong.
We don’t have all the facts to this case, but there are lots of people, especially outside China, who are criticising this execution. The British government had its hands tied – had it pointed out the obvious, it would have been turned on by the British media.
Its a shame that many Chinese can’t see the British governments actions for what they were – just lip-service paid to appease the media and the guy’s family.
That last translated comment is pretty hilarious. So was a23696’s comment.
What the Chinese netizens failed to realize(except for the OP and user 538851)is that:
Akmal Shaik is actually a foreign operations officer entrusted by the MI-5 to infiltrate the strong and unified chinese society. His objective was to poison and weaken and moral fiber and ethical integrity of the glorious Chinese society with his imperialist made mind altering substances. The parliament and the crown thought this would be a good strategy, since you know, it work perfectly years back.
And the real reason they are doing this is because they are pissed, the imperialists pigs are still pissed since Hong Kong has been returned to its motherland, they are still sour about that.
But thanks the incorruptible and glorious People’s judicial system, this vast western conspiracy was stopped.
It has nothing to do with drug trafficking is a highly profitable trade, and there are drug traffickers of every nationality every where.
I’m sorry did Akmel shaik give you the other suitcase? comments like that make me nostalgic for all those blistering hot intellectual minds I encountered while I was over there. Besides we got bigger fish to fry that the peoples republic of crap.
赞！ i thought that “mongoloid frog head” was right on the money
You don’t mean that the guy printed on RMB100 bank note is mongoloid frog head, do you? ^_^
Yup, it was a doozy wasn’t it! If you find some of the insults confusing, trust me, the original is just as strange.
And a223696 was trying to be funny I think. Glad you found it hilarious, humour doesn’t always translate well!
I think that weird paragraph derived from lines of the movie “Fit Lover”.
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=567582051
Well to be more accurate, from what I’ve seen on Canadian, American and British news websites with comments sections, most ordinary people supported this execution. The British government of course had to complain because it would’ve been trashed by the media, political opponents, and activists for doing nothing.
The controversy behind the execution was not the fact that Akmal Shaikh was British, but rather that he was clearly mentally ill. He had a long history of erratic behaviour and dellusional beliefs, and all psychiatrists who looked at the evidence concluded he was bipolar. Anyone at all familiar with that illness would know that a sufferer is incapable of rational thinking, especially during a “manic” episode.
Most civilised countries make legal allowances for mental illness, and at least officially, China does too. Unfortunately, however, it seems that Akmal’s mental health was ignored during the trial, and as a result, a mentally ill man was executed. This is a disgrace. Sadly, the Chinese coverage of the issue has conveniently ignored the mental health angle, and has instead decided to focus on pathetic comparisons with a rather insignificant conflict fought over 150 years ago.
Wow, way to twist the truth (aka: lie), Edward. His family claimed he had a mental illness and a single psychiatrist POST-arrest, said he had bipolar disorder after spending 15 minutes with him.
What’s strange is that he had NO documents of having a mental illness beforehand. He was NEVER diagnosed with having a mental illness before his arrest. If he did, his fate just may have ended differently. Why didn’t his family EVER take him to a psychiatrist to assess him for mental illness if they believed he had the problems that he did?
Anyone can claim and act out a mental illness when facing execution. That’s why there’s a very high bar in even developed countries for claiming you have a mental illness during a trial, or else anyone can just act their way into a lesser sentence.
Dest, I merely claimed that the psychiatrists who analysed the EVIDENCE presented by the British government concluded he was bipolar. You’re right when you say that Akmal never underwent an official check, as the Chinese court denied him this right. Exactly why they chose to do this is a mystery.
In the UK, one can only be diagnosed with mental illness if one voluntarily chooses to go to a doctor. (That is, provided the illness is not considered to be a risk to others). One can only assume that Akmal chose not to go to a doctor, and being an adult, couldn’t be forced to do so by his family. This is all under the assumption he had a close relationship with his family – which we don’t know for sure.
You have to admit that Akmal had a history of bizarre and delusional behaviour. Surely this entitled him to a psychiatric examination? When the death sentence is being considered, I would consider this a pretty basic right – especially for a man like Akmal.
No, it’s not a mystery at all why they denied the mental assessment. Anyone can act insane and get a lesser sentence in the face of execution. Chinese law requires previous actual evidence of mental illness before conducting a mental assessment.
He had none. His family fought for him a lot in the media, telling them about all the crazy things he did, yet he was never diagnosed a mental illness before. I find that ridiculous. The fact that he recorded some song and thought he was going to become a star is worth jack. There are MANY people like that in the world, and they aren’t mentally ill.
For that matter, I have not read anything about psychiatrists analyzing any “evidence” and diagnosing a bipolar disorder. I have only read about a single psychiatrist talking to him for 15 minutes AFTER he was arrested. How psychiatrists could formulate a diagnosis without even being with the patient is beyond me.
In any case, he went to China, violated their laws, and failed their mental assessment eligibility requirements.
“Chinese law requires previous actual evidence of mental illness before conducting a mental assessment.”
Do you realize how stupid this comment is? If previous evidence of insanity is necessary before a mental assessment is carried out, then there will never be previous evidence of insanity. Duh!
“You’re right when you say that Akmal never underwent an official check, as the Chinese court denied him this right. Exactly why they chose to do this is a mystery.|
Oh, and actually, I was referring to the fact that in his entire lifetime, he was never diagnosed with a mental illness. It doesn’t matter why not. I suggest you read up on the insanity defence in other countries. Very few people are even able to use it in cases in the US, and of that fraction, few are successful with it, and of THAT fraction, the vast majority were previously diagnosed with a mental illness.
To criticize China over this is simply complete ignorance of the reality of laws around the world.
The evidence I’m talking about does include the song you incorrectly dismissed as “jack”, but also a long history of delusional behaviour. You seem to be familiar with the case, so I’m sure you’ve read about his decision a few years ago to travel to Poland, while bankrupt, to set up a commercial airline. Having been made homeless, he began to bombard the British embassy, and indeed embassies from around the world, with 100+ page long rants written in 70point font about fictitious encounters with celebrities and politicians, conversations he’d had with angels, and his destiny to become a global superstar that would usher in world peace. This was, of course, prior to his decision to fly to Kyrgyzstan, of all places, to realise this dream.
During Akmal’s opening court appearance, he denied being mentally ill, and subsequently launched into a rambling, incoherant speech that lasted 50 minutes. According to his family members, some of the judges broke into laughter during the more ‘amusing’ sections.
The Chinese judges were presented with Akmal’s personal history, and were of course present during his court room performances. Now, I’m reluctant to argue with you, clearly an authority on world legal systems, but I can’t help but feeling that the evidence presented warranted a simple mental health evaluation. When dealing with a case where execution is a possibility, I believe that all avenues must be explored. You, on the other hand, seem to be quite content with the idea of putting a man to death to avoid a niggling bureaucratic procedure. I’d be interested to see if you had the same attitude if it was you administering the lethal injection, and not just while barking on an internet forum.
Well, if it were up to me, I would ask for a mental health assessment only because the punishment is execution, but I don’t write Chinese law. The fact is he was punished under Chinese law, and they correctly interpreted the case under their law. It’s too bad for him, but he most probably could’ve been saved if somebody had done something about his alleged mental issues.
In the UK they listen to a different drummer…
“Oh, and actually, I was referring to the fact that in his entire lifetime, he was never diagnosed with a mental illness.”
So, in your estimation, this means that he could not have a mental illness? If a cancer patient is not diagnosed with cancer, does he not have cancer?
Clearly mental ill my ass. Think with that little head of your rather than repeating the same ol’ propaganda lines for once:
If he were so mentally ill why didn’t his ever so caring relatives and his ever so “civilised” nation took care of him BEFORE he wondered to foreign countries and became a drug mule?
Moreover, 4KG is a lot of heroin which could be sold at a very high street value. Drug dealers on the other hand are not nearly as stupid as drug users who tend to become heads of the most powerful and “civilised” nations. If Shaikh were such a retard as people like you love to claim, why would the drug dealers even trust him to carry over the drugs? Why wouldn’t the drug dealer find someone more competent to make sure that the investment pays off?
Finally, the British government knows exactly what will happen to this guy. Since when has China ever caved to external pressure well? The moment this goes public you know that China WILL execute this guy just so that its government will not be seen as caving to the Brits selling drugs to China, again. The Brit politicians KNOW this, but are acting like your average trolls on Chinasmack to elicit a response from China on an issue which the Brit government knows it has nothing on.
hold the fuck on. A drug dealer picking someone “intelligent” to be their mule? What planet do you live on? A mules greatest asset is generally his willingness to be one. A mental deficency would certainly qualify. Desperation being a close second. This guy had both.
Nice argument guys. Informative and polite. Wish there was more stuff like this on Chinasmack.
Akmal-Shaikh was born in Pakistan, he should have never been given citizenship to England.. The only mockery was the fact that he was considered english, just like all the other so called asylum seekers living in London…
As for his death, you do the crime you do the time.. His time just happened to have run out. All those organisations trying to save one person, all the aid could of been diverted to his home country of pakistan and would of done much more good.
Akmal-Shaikh was living a failed and miserable lie, he was declared bankrupt a few years ago, so this coon thinks he can sell drugs to the chinese to make ends meet.. Well you cant and now you are dead. Good riddance and Amen.
Fuck off you scum filth. I’d rather take a loony drug smuggler as my compatriot than shit like you. Kill yourself now, you waste of flesh.
what’s the matter with you? Kennon is right.
If you think Akmal-Shaikh was doing anyone of us a favour than you better re-assess yourself because it looks like your a waste of flesh.
The only one with a problem Old Comrade Kim is you!!! If you don’t like what i have to say, then thats your problem, because i am not going to lose any sleep over it. The company you choose is your decision i do not care, at least i am still alive and not stupid enough to be caught with drugs in my possession.
The only waste of flesh was Akmal-Shaikh, can you honestly say you would befriend someone who profited directly from the illegal drugs trade? Think of the pain and suffering he would of spread throughout this world, directly or indirectly who cares. The world was a better place when he died and if you are too bitter to realise that, you need your to asses yourself and wonder if you are one who really is the waste of flesh.
Also thanks for the back up Keith, i may of been a tad to extreme in the message, but it was just how i felt at the time. Anyway you are right Buddy, one less drug dealer in the world.
Before Gordon Brown, condemns chinese government for the execution, he should condemn the late Akmal-Shaik’s family, to let such man travelling so far without any psychiatrist by his side.
Actually his place could be an hospital not a plane travelling to china.
His bag could be full of medicines and not contains 4kgs of drugs.
Well, human life is sacred. Is it any drug dealer having respect of other’s life?
Other countries need take example of punishment from the BeiJing staying government.
Especially African governments.
The british government should shut up. The Chinese have executed a criminal and that’s good. How about the British killing and bitting up innocent children in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are the British actually capturing children, putting them on trial, and then beating them up and killing them? Is that their policy there? Sorry, I hadn’t heard about that before…
Odd you would think that because the British and American government had no problems killing innocent civilians during the Iraq war.
My point wasn’t that they didn’t kill innocent people. My point was that they didn’t put in the news that they intend on setting up a mock trial and then executing the innocent children in Iraq and Afghanistan. Odd you wouldn’t understand that when I clearly stated it already.
Mock trials? Is that like the one where the Blackwater guys just got acquitted for killing the whole Iraqi village? Now that’s a real outrage because the Iraqis are actually pissed, but oddly enough the non-brown people in the Western worlds don’t really care. To protect their own regardless of justice, that has been the standard policy of the western nations.
The trial with this drug mule was hardly a mock trial. He was caught was with 4g of heroin which is enough to kill oh, about 20,000 people. The whole argument that he was a mental case didn’t even surface until the very end, and this insane defense has been propagated by all the china-bashers as the truth although NOWHERE could anyone find any truth evidence of him being crazy.
Which are you talking about? The one from 2007? The guys who were recently had charges dismissed because the prosecutors wrongly used their words against them? I’m assuming that’s it since it was recently in the news.
First of all, I’m not excusing this topic as null just because you exaggerated it quite a bit. Unless an Iraqi village consists of 17 people in the middle of a Baghdad square, then you’re a bit wrong on that little fact. Of course it doesn’t change the fact that those guys deserve to be locked up for life or, if you want to be “eye for an eye” about it, killed. I’m sure half that company haven’t been the most well-behaved group over there. However…
You’re wrong if you think westerners don’t care. Or, well, the “white people” you’re talking about since you so brazenly added “non-brown people”. I know, it’s common to associate everything with race when one is narrow-minded. The same type to exaggerate something just to sensationalize it to prove some point that’s exaggerated in itself.
Anyway, that’s not important. What I said above was that no, it is not British policy or military rules of engagement, as Georges suggested, to capture, beat up, and kill innocent children in Iraq and Afghanistan. You then came in, got confused and mentioned Blackwater, a private security company that’s contracted by the US to help provide security there. Yes, they’re shitty at it. I don’t know anyone here, except for retarded extreme right-wing nut jobs, agrees with them even being hired in the first place. I seriously think you just made up the racist part where you said white westerners don’t care about them killing “an entire village of Iraqis” because you couldn’t think of anything else to say to express yourself. Or do you actually, honest to god, seriously, really and truly, honestly believe this to be a racial conspiracy on the government level (including Obama…the [brown] US president?) to go in and mercilessly shoot up civilians in a square? Like they told them this is their mission in their job description? Just curious.
“…it is not British policy or military rules of engagement, as Georges suggested, to capture, beat up, and kill innocent children in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Maybe just US policy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSH040l36aI
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6475572260720170661#
It was another case of China making decisions today for some pathetic historical retribution. Akmal was a British citizen so the British government was obliged to fight for a fair trial, as it would do for any citizen. The Chinese government made absolutely no effort to give the man a psychological evaluation (which would have concluded his mental state once and for all), and gave their standard bitchy, throw-the-toys-out-of-the-pram “no-one has the right to comment on Chinese affairs.” The Chinese government knows that they can stir up some nationalistic hubris inside China, and now feels confident enough to ignore genuine international outrage. It’s just a shame that the British government didn’t actually do anything real to signify that this isn’t acceptable in a mutually dependent global relationship.
Chinese law doesn’t allow for psychiatric evaluations unless there are prior evidence of mental illness, like someone pointed out earlier, the incarcerated have a lot of incentive to pretend to be crazy. China’s judiciary probably doesn’t want to set a precedence where anyone could asks for a psychiatrist with no other evidence. If an Chinese person is in the same circumstances he would also be denied psychiatric evaluation and executed, should the Briton receive preferential treatment by virtue of being the citizen of another country?
I have never been to the U.K. but reading some of the blogs about this case it seems drug abuse is a big problem in Britain(I could be way off here), are British people naturally more inclined to do drugs or is it possibly related to the lax enforcement and punishment there?
I recall when Michael Fay was arrested and caned in Singapore for graffiti, many people in the United States
were also outraged and called Singaporean laws barbaric, but Singapore is graffiti free while if you visit the downtown area of any major city in the U.S. it would be hard to not to find them. Barbaric? maybe so, effective? yes.
As for history, you may be right, fact he is British and he was smuggling drugs probably triggered memories of humiliating past. Even though one have really nothing to do with the other, it would be hard to find a Chinese person who did not mentally connect some dots. I don’t know whether or not this was on the judge’s mind when he issued the sentence, but the law did not give any leeway here.
Foreign druggies, snort your stash before venturing into China, abandon all powder, ye who enter!
Domestic addicts, support your local poppy farmers and drug dealers, buy domestic!
Drug abuse in the uk is widespread, but on different levels. Many people engage in soft drugs, but hard drugs like heroin or cocaine? I think something like 160 people died in the uk from cocaine abuse in 2008 – roughly comparable to the number who died from adult cot death. Our perception of drugs here is probably less important than our views on capital punishment and ‘fair play’.
I have to say I am surprised by that number, but I wonder how many people died while growing, trafficking, and distributing these drugs soft and hard.
Now I’m confused.
It seems that just about every Chinese person that committs a crime in China has a mental problem.
Or that just me?
I missed those Michael Fay days when Singapore stuck to its stand. Sadly, that was in the 90s. Nowadays, foreigners are routinely given lenient sentences for criminal offences. If Akmal Shaik did the same in Singapore today, the government would find some way to let him go to avoid trouble.
P.S. Graffiti is now legalised in Singapore but you can only do it at selected areas.
They still executed Nguyen Tuong Van anyway.
A Singapore version of Akmal. Seems nobody remembers it here.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/nguy-d03.shtml
Psychic evaluation or not the guy had illegal drugs in his possession, if he was so mentally unstable, then he shouldn’t of gone on such a lengthy trip.. The man was responsible for his own luggage, he was responsible for buying his ticket and he was well enough to get on the plane to china! Mentally unstable i think not, he had no other business in china other then distributing drugs, he knew why he was there… What would a psychic evaluation prove? just so he could escape the death penalty, play the sick card… They should of shot the poor bastard once he landed and the whole situation wouldn’t of been so long winded.
Once again England is tarnished by the brush of asylum seeking residents, it has no real representation of English nationals and thus i see no reason why this man was entitled to any help at all, his real citizenship status is in Pakistani (they should of intervened not England)
“if he was so mentally unstable, then he shouldn’t of gone on such a lengthy trip”
That argument doesn’t work well since a mentally unstable person can’t be expected to realize that he is so and thus stop himself from going on a trip.
“The man was responsible for his own luggage, he was responsible for buying his ticket and he was well enough to get on the plane to china! Mentally unstable i think not,”
Even though someone may be mentally unstable, they could be perfectly capable of performing all of those functions. Trust me, I’ve known quite a few mentally unstable people in my time, and half of them you’d never know it to look at them.
He was a Pakistani (a country that produces alot of heroine) and not British.
Fit enough to own a passport/buy a plane ticket = Fit enough to be executed.
fwiw, i dont agree with the death penalty.
cho-co-late??????
I bet no-one’s gonna get this joke….. :(
You know, momma always said…
‘Crazy like a fox” as the saying goes. There are quite a few walking the streets all over the globe these days.
Let’s get high. Let’s get high!
I wake up in the AM. I get high.
I get high all day till I pass out.
I get high everyday.
Do you think I have mental illness? Naw, I don’t.
I may be crazy but I never got it checked officially. Maybe I should you know, just in case.
His punishment seemed a little harsh to me.. Haha damn
I would say that 9 out of 10 British friends that I spoke with are in agreement with the Chinese government.
It is the law of China and he should have obeyed it! I wish more governments were as resolute!
Drugs and the pushers and users are a cancer on the world!
Well said old chap… and to add to your statistic I agree that he deserve all he got.
Why exactly should “human rights” apply to Pakis? If they’re not blowing up British buses and girls schools, they’re smuggling smack and fucking their cousins.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm
“It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins”
“British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population – they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.”
Most real British people would love to see them sent back to the shithole they came from but if you say that in public you get called a Nazi.
Do you post just for the attention or to continually drive home the point you’re subhuman?
You seem to be the type who would screw your first cousin if she were hot.
I would screw his first cousin if she was hot.
Pusan, i think it would be more fairer to say, that there could be a immigration crises with all the foreign residents here in Britain. Your stats are valid but your argument isn’t, but you are right British people cannot say anything out publicly that would denounce a minority group, but if we want something done about a immigration crises then we need to go down the correct channels. If you are allowed the vote, then vote BNP, that is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim. And as for human rights, if we like the rules of the land, im afraid all that can be done is to complain to the PM… Nothing else you can do.
if we don’t like the rules of the land, im afraid all that can be done is to complain to the PM… Nothing else you can do.
Inbreeding and drug smuggling? They must be trying to emulate European royal families and various modern intelligence agencies.
They’ll never make it to the Hall of Fame in this business though.
lol… The anglo-saxon drug dealer during the previous century and a (probably) Muslim english drug smugger… they comparing them? I dont see the common ground aside from citizenship. yea, glory of the past again….
I oppose death penalty in general and in any country.
Excellent comments Edward, unfortunately those of us who think this man should have at least been allowed a fair trial and an evaluation are in the minority amidst a screaming mob that wants blood. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
From everything I have read the trial lasted 30 minutes and he was not allowed to present evidence on his behalf. One of the common arguments I have seen at other sites is that because Akmal declared himself as not having a history with mental health problems or his family having a history then their is no need for it to be considered. This is usually followed by their next point being that he is a drug smuggler who would say anything to protect his own hide. I suppose if he would say anything to protect his own hide then that would include him claiming to be mentally unstable, which according to China, he did not. Further, the mentally ill aren’t usually trusted to evaluate their own mental health.
So many are making this an issue about China and the UK, or about what happened 100+ years ago. This is about a system that felt 30 minutes was enough time to contemplate killing a mentally unstable man and not about wounded pride or redemption. The Chinese courts and the commenters here who are judging him without due process are making a lot of assumptions. Your assumptions may very well be right, but shouldn’t a man be given a trial and it be actually determined that all these assumptions are indeed true before you kill him?
You repeated bring up the length of the trial as if somehow this is evidence for foul play or rushed judgement. The facts of the case – that he travelled to China carrying an obscene amount of dangerous and highly addictive drug – is not in dispute. The only argument here is his supposed mental disorder, which absent documented proof did not warrant psychiatric examination under Chinese law. The End. Should the tax payer’s money to wasted on further debates or technicalities to assuage social guilt of the priviledged who blab the “criminals as victims of circumstances” fairy tale?
We internet warriors are making alot of assumptions, but that comes with the territory of couching behind a screen, the people who decide the case, as far as anyone knows, did examine these assumptions and followed the law. It is the British government that is asking for extrajudicial considerations.
Should the tax payer’s money to wasted on further debates or technicalities to assuage social guilt of the priviledged who blab the “criminals as victims of circumstances” fairy tale? (/quote)
To be honest, yes. It’s important for a that it’s proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the offender is guilty of the crime he is being punished for. That’s the essence of “innocent until proven guilty”
…and besides, “bipolar disorder” was the best they could do!? It wouldn’t be a mitigating factor even in the US, where we have the fairest system money can buy!
I support this execution and petition the Chinese government to extend capital punishment to Christian missionaries, instead of deporting them. China would be a better place.
Why do western countries have so many drug addicts? Because the don’t act against them, dealers sit a couple of years and when they get out – guess what they do again.
There is no effort at all to stop them!
Brits and the Americans spread the Afghan opium around the world, its a big business.
The 4 Kg Opium the Brit brought could have killed thousands of people. I have a lot of respect of the Chinese government to kill him. I wish my government would also act like this!
Without getting into a debate about capital punishment itself, feeling that drug dealers should be executed is one thing, feeling that suspected drug dealers should be executed without a proper trial is another. There is enough circumstantial evidence regarding his mental health and his claims of being duped to at least have given him a trial.
If a mentally unstable man thought he was traveling to China to be a pop singer and was completely unaware that his suitcase had heroin in it, do you really think he should have been killed? Shouldn’t this at least have been considered at a fair trial? You have respect for the Chinese government for killing a man without giving him a fair trial? Shame on you.
Could’ve killed 1000s, true. ButI doubt the 4kg would’ve killed 1000s. It’s not in the financial interests of dealers to kill their customers.
Your argument is disingenuous, simple minded and lacks nuance.
In the real world, junkies die for many different reasons – overdose, impure product, HIV. All of which are the function of an unregulated trade.
Drug abuse is better seen as a medical problem, with methadone projects, needle exchanges and health education. Take the profit out of this horrible trade.
Yes, the colonial history of the UK is not very good regarding opium. But you guys got Hong Kong out of it :) Swings and roundabouts, my friend.
i think what he meant was the it would have destroyed the lives of hundreds of ppl.
Slightly good point, but the punishment/nonpunishment of dealers has zero causality with our number of addicts.
I’m actually impressed, the comments here have been fairly intelligent :) it changes my view to know that Chinese law requires a history of mental health to declare a person incapable. I don’t think most English people support the execution (I’m English, in England so I have some experience…) but what I personally don’t like is the idea that he was executed without due care and attention. Remember, if he was not executed, were we calling for a pardon or release? No. He probably would have spent the rest of his life in a Chinese jail or a British psychiatric ward. The key difference is that we would have seen a man obviously in mental distress treated with dignity and humanity.
IF he was mentally disabled, he was not gonna have a dignified and humane lifetime in any prison system in the world.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/half-of-those-who-die-in-police-custody-have-mental-illness-748230.html
http://www.miwatch.org/2009/09/loathsome_prison_conditions_fo.html
But we’re talking about bipolar disorder here. It was the best defense they could put up, even for PR? Again, bipolar disorder wouldn’t be a mitigating factor in “western” courts either… without a very pricey attorner.
To all of you who think that he was given an unfair trial with only 30mins to give evidence. You have to remember that he got media attention for over 2 weeks before his verdict was given in court. Additionally he got visits from family to give their side of the story and also a British representative speaking on numerous occasions with their “evidence” that this DRUG DEALER was indeed mentally ill but with no success. I’m sure China had more than enough time to digest all this information and come up with a verdict. Rushed verdict? Pleeeeeeeeeeease.
This man was given more than just 30mins to try and have his fate changed. In this case he was just another liar trying to wiggle out of the system and didn’t.
Media attention is not the same as being able to present evidence at your own trial which he was not allowed to do. How does media attention play into this? I cannot be sure that the judges in this case tried this case by watching media coverage and I certainly would hope they wouldn’t do that.
We are to assume that after a 30 minute trial the Chinese courts had enough time to digest all this information? Or we are to assume all the judges spent their free time digesting 2 weeks of media coverage? Your assuming an awful lot to be “sure” of this.
I never said I assumed they made their decision by “watching media coverage” read my post you idiot. I said it was in the media for over 2 weeks so I’m referring to the time line.
You’d be stupid to think that they’d walk in and sit down totally ignorant of what was going on before sitting in the court room with the culprit. You’re the one who’s assuming a lot from my comment.
You never clarified your reason for mentioning the media coverage in your original post. I was left to assume, at least I can admit it.
Thanks for resorting to namecalling and I have my own opinions regarding your intellect. I think you’d be pretty stupid to assume a court that wouldn’t even allow a psychiatric evaluation of a clearly disturbed man would be ignorant free and fair.
Stick to namecalling, you clearly don’t have the courage to admit when your wrong or argue objectively.
Now I may not be a big-shot, fancy city lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that a fair trial is supposed to be approached from square one. That is to say it is the job of the courts to blank out any media circus that may be swelling around the case, to ignore the baying mobs outside and online and step by step examine the case in a fair and impartial way. The timeline before the case ought to be in no way related to the trial itself.
However there ought to be a reasonable portion of blame placed on the UK’s handling of this case. It was irresponsible to approach this issue in the way that they did by having MPs publicly denounce China. This is not the way to get results. Anyone that has been here for any length of time would realise that the best way to deal with this situation would have been the subtlest way possible. If I were to be cynical I might suggest that the Uk was more interested in headlines and media support than it was in saving this man.
Exactly. There are no rules of evidence in PR. So his family could’ve said anything… and the best they could come up with was BD?
Again, even if he had it, not a mitigating factor.
When you are in any country, you have to obey the laws of that country and suffer the consequences if you fail to obey the law. I agree with him being found guilty, I only disagree with the fact that China refused a mental health examination.
as others said earlier, and me jsut restating what they had said; this guy deserved the execution. heck it was already humane by lethal injection since china’s usually does nothing by firing squad.
the brits of course have to complain and lodge protest it’s one of their citizens and any country should defend their citizens, or else face mass hysteria from the media and public outcry.
as far as beijing’s concern of drug trade, i don’t mean to be stereotypical but everyone knows its the africans who are doing this in sanlitun. the last time i went to poacher’s alley who always comes up to me, the africans see if i want to score weed. i personally don’t care for the stuff since it makes the penis soft when i try to glide it into my pillow with a hole in it.
as far as the original post by the chinese guy about this issue, he made it too dramatic and over-extended the bridge to bring a gap of back then to now seem logical which has no point at all except the historical value of drug trade. other than that nothing else.
I oppose the death penalty on principle, but it’s hard to say that this guy isn’t deserving.
Having over four kilos of opium, he was clearly out to sell it. If the Chinese government hadn’t executed him, one of the rival drug gangs probably would have. Furthermore, mental illness was never much of an excuse to me. Unless you can show that it’s treatable, the fact that he’s mentally ill only makes him an uncontrollable danger to society. It’s unfair to everyone else to let such a person walk free. Prisons exist to protect us, not merely to dispense justice.
He was a drug mule, not a drug dealer. Homeless dudes with dreams of recording a pop song to promote world peace are not drug dealers; they are easily duped pawns…or maybe just plain desperate.
If the law was followed, so be it. Kill the rooster to frighten the monkey and all that. Too bad the people who enabled Mr. Shaikh will never be caught and likely another 4KG of heroin crossed the border while everyone was debating this topic.
wow… this guy took it way too seriously. It was just one stupid man sneaking in a shit load of heroin. I highly doubt the British government was in on all this. Calm down a bit geez.
Somebody asked me, do i have experience about China? Buddy, i live here 5 years, and i know, if you have enough money you can make everything. maybe you dont like it, but it is true. The reason why africans are still selling drugs is very simple, they just pay fees to local police, and it is also the true.
And this executed guy was not British by his nationality, just got passport. But UK tried everything to protect this citizen. If you will get in same troubles in any European country, do you think your China will help you? Lol
Translation:
Someone questioned whether I really lived in China because sometimes I just open my mouth and nonsense comes out. I bring up a non sequitur followed by a vaguely racist statement that is tangential to the point I am trying to make.
I confuse myself about citizenship and passport, before taking pride in how hard my government failed to interfere in another country’s business. I raise rhetorical question on whether or not Chinese government would fail equally as hard in analagous situation. Finally I laugh out loud as proof of my mental retardation in case I am caught with drugs in the the future.
Dayum, that’s hella hardcore.
heheh, thanks, and “hella” sounds nostalgic, guess you can take the man out of norcal but not the other way around.
Now that I think about it, it’s kind of silly and he is probably not even from Britain, -_-; problem is thinking while interneting is a difficult multitasker, unlike reading and shi*****.
…oh what the hell, I mean shitting.
Well, since you do know the final retailers arround beijing(or at least the obvious ones), but you still haven’t try to check how many of them are executed by the shooting squad or the most important “HOW do THEY GET THEIR PRODUCTS IN THE COUNTRY”…
Then I think we don’t have much to whine about the Chinese judiciary trial proceadure and the final veredict at this point in time.
By the way “WHICHONE” I can’t agree more with every approach you have made about this issue so far.
Go to Yunnan and walk around in the countryside a bit, you’ll see drugs production like you wouldn’t believe. Hell, why do you think they used to call it ‘China White’?
Money talks, bs walks in any nation. Drug dealers are well protected for a reason.
But you are stupid if you think UK did everything it could to save this man. By bringing this case out and bashing China in public the UK government only ensured that this guy would be dead. If Brown really wanted to save him it would be quite simple to do so behind the doors.
If anything, this whole episode just spells it out to people that the British government would rather score political points rather than saving a man’s life. But let’s be REALLY honest here, no one gives a shit about Shaikh.
I support this action. China takes a serious stand against drug smugglers which is commendable. It is too common that those sentenced to death suddenly have diminished mental capacity therefore should be spared punishment.
He didn’t have “suddenly have diminished mental capacity”. If you bothered to actually look into the story before you decided to talk out your backside you would have known he has been mentally ill for years. But thanks for sharing your uninformed opinion, it carries a lot of weight.
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2009_12_18_akmal_shaikh_new_evidence
I have worked on the peripheries of Chinese civil law, but I will admit that I know little of Chinese criminal law. That said:
1) No psychiatric examination was allowed, although there was good cause to believe one necessary.
2) A system which does not allow for previously un-diagnosed mental illness to entered as a defence (with the appropriate safeguards against fakery) is not one which defends the human rights of the mentally ill.
3) Application of the death penalty in this case may have been correct under Chinese law, but this law does not respect human rights as I recognise it.
I have little to say for Akhmal Shaikh except that he was either an insane man who was duped, or a criminal who knew what he was getting himself into, and that we will never know which of those he was.
I personally favour a liberal approach to drugs, and abolition of the death penalty, but I recognise that these opinions are not held by others, or reflected in the law of other countries.
So long as you have international organized crime syndicates working together with the drug producing countries eg Myanmar (Golden triangle), Columbia, Afghanistan with the distribution gangs e.g. Italian Mafia, Bikie gangs in US/Can, Nigerians, Chinese triads and Yakuza, its going to be tough to eradicate the drug problem from society.
Customs and border protection agencies in all countries look out for people who recently come from a trip from Vietnam, Myanmar (Golden triangle), Columbia or Afghanistan as they are all high risk countries and always people attempting to bring in drugs from those countries.
you guy’s are all a bunch of corny wankers.
If he did suffer from a disorder it would make him normal by the locals’ standards; therefore not a valid reason to get him off the hook.
Viper use in developed and developing countries are two different things.
People in developed ones are *supposed* to piss away their money, health and power.
People in developing ones are supposed to hustle and become a unstoppable, inevitable force of change.
Empires crumble.
So yeah right on lin zexu, keep viper out of guangzhou again. And Akmal, 爆他的菊花！
It’s that part of you that feels bad for a crazy guy, feels outrages at a legal system, and sort of likes doing drugs yourself – that’s what China has no business messing with right now. Check back in 30 years.
Many Africans get executed in China, the problem here is that England doesn’t allow death penalty, while the people that were executed before(quite often actually) come from countries that don’t give a crap about them and allow death penalty….
One person dying in hands of the chinese law is nothing, but this way of ignoring the petitions of an european country in favor of the human rights… THIS will be the case that will change the future of chinese law against foreigners.
So everybody beware..don’t let anybody slip 50g of heroin in your bag when you come to China…. or you know the consequences…
@Hopfrog
What would you have done if they caught your family members with 4KG(!!) opium? Of course you would have told any story to get them out, right?
The family could not produce one piece of evidence that the guy was retarded. So what do you expect?
@cnut flapz
“But you guys got Hong Kong out of it”
I don’t own HK, I am European btw.”
Even if it would have only killed one person, I’d prefer a drug trader to a person making a stupid mistake in trying hard drugs. I know people who died because of this s**t. No traders, no opium, no problem… it is really that simple!
But my main point is that the organizers of this whole thing (that are Americans and Britons) make Billions in the drug trade
(!!) and China is making an important stand!
@SadButTrue, If one of my family members was a sane person who was fully aware of what they were doing then I would let them live with the consequences. The family was not trying to prove that the guy was “retarded” they were trying to prove he was mentally ill. Your not really making any point.
China has a painful history with drugs and China making an “important stand” against drug dealers may or may not be what has happened here. The man was mentally ill and by not even administering an evaluation, China did not appear to even consider that he was mentally ill and may have been duped.
You will find many interesting results on Google, have a go!
e.g. :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan
“It was alleged by the Soviets on multiple occasions that American CIA agents were helping smuggle opium out of Afghanistan, either into the West, in order to raise money for the Afghan resistance or into the Soviet Union in order to weaken it through drug addiction. According to Alfred McCoy, the CIA supported various Afghan drug lords, for instance Gulbuddin Hekmatyar.”
HI I AM BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKKKK!
China is only trying to protect its poeple and finding a way of saying: you LAOWAIS do not think you can come here here and shit all over the place, THIS IS NOT EUROPE OR AMERICA.
Why do you Laowais think you can do anything in another country without consequences?
He was bipolar, not retarded. Fuck him.
Him being guilty? Yes, agreed. Even if unknowingly.
However, the constant references to the Opium War? It’s amazing how much of a chip on the shoulder some of these guys have on something that happened so long ago. I don’t think I could be so passionate about something that I’m unattached to and no one I’ve ever met had experienced.
People make mental connections between these events but it’s not always about wounded ego, I think an analogous case is that every time France refuse to support U.S. military action somewhere it’s brought up France got their ass handed to them during WWII and should be eternally grateful to America for defeating the Germans. I’ll bet some dudes in Middle east are thinking man how long are they going to keep bringing that up?
While they are thinking, they are probably also impressed by thoughtful and considered tactics like dumping wine in the streets, temporarily renaming french fries, narrow minded commentators boycotting French goods etc…
I don’t know why dudes in the Middle East would be asking that…I mean, about France and all…however, I see your point. Either way, I actually get annoyed at the France thing as well as the historical references that date back even further. So I still say it’s a bit ignorant.
There is no particular reason for choosing some person in the Middle East, I didn’t want to say a person in U.S. France, or China and landed in Middle East.
I’d probably guess the French are more tired of hearing it haha
Prime Minister Brown probably intervened to maintin the British Muslim vote. His thoughts are probaly the same as most Brits; ‘Play big boys games, then accept big boys rules’
It’s funny that the bars and clubs I’ve been to in China have lots of open drug use and sales in them. Nobody there is getting arrested, least executed. This is another game of international politics playing out.
If England (and Europe) is so unhappy by China’s actions, they can protest it by not buying Chinese products. Hit them in the wallet. :)
Drug dealers should boycott China.
WTF ! , Think about it people , I’m sure there are some border check points where stuff can go through easily , but the amounts available for sale around major cities totally surpass’s that supply , so who recruits the foreigners ?
As usual chinese commenters are fanatically nationalistic and full of a sense of victimhood and post-colonial bitterness. They need to get over themselves, and they need to get over the past, and start behaving like a grown-up country.
Well said old chap! as a frequent traveller of China, I read what you are commenting on almost every day in the English version of ‘The China Daily!’
I like the Chinese but they really do have to get the past out of the way, in order to see clearly the good road that lays ahead of them.
bc
A bit of demographic nit-picking. It is young people who are increasingly nationalistic: they are the ones who post on BBS. Older Chinese people are much less so, since many of them experienced the great leap forward and the cultural revolution. Both major episodes in Chinese history costing millions of lives and which get scant mention in school text books today…..a paragraph or two.
One the one hand, young people are totally focussed on getting a decent job amidst massive competition, then an apartment and the big one….marriage.
Ant people who fail in this quest, turn to the China is Angry line, as it is an easier way of explaining their crap situation than examining internal factors. The latter would involve a major critique of the economy, some ways of thinking and govt.
Word.
Easy to moan about Nanking or the Opium Wars than think about the here and now.
Maybe the penny will drop one day.
Come the revoultion, brothers.
Heh, it must be easy to dismiss the conservatives in China as “nationalistic”, “fenqing”, or “50 cent’ers”.
Sure, the unemployed angry virgin fenqing image may sound fitting for the bitter liberals who missed out on the economic boom, but why the heck would your average successful professional living in the big cities want the clueless laowais to tell them what to do? Then you get the Chinese overseas who can see through the whole deal: the racist foreign neocons/liberals want to change yet another nation so that the liberals can feel a sense of accomplishment and the neocons can benefit from the chaos financially.
Remember the people who went to the pro-China protests during the Olympics in Europe, the US, Canada, and AU? How do you explain them? Insecure Chinese immigrants who are brainwashed by the Chinese government although many of them are successful 2nd generation immigrants who can’t even understand Chinese? Or sexually repressed loser exchange students who are smart and savvy enough to get into the best universities around the world? How about Chinese people around the world simply sick of what they perceive as a racist holier-than-thou attitude and total hypocrisy when it comes to the way the West deals with China? You can call them nationalists, fenwai, brainwashed, or whatever, but the truth is that more and more people are starting to think this way, for good reasons too.
Just wondering, do you tell to the African Americans that they should get over themselves about the past too? How about the Jews? Israel’s handling of Gaza is hardly “mature”. Do you tell jews that they should forget the past and grow up too?
I get it, people from Western nations abide by something called Political Correctness, but why doesn’t PC apply to China?
The point most people with this “forget the past” idea are simply stating that “it happened a long, long time ago. It doesn’t affect any of use today.” Naturally, in some cases it actually DOES affect people still (the Israel thing you mentioned is an example). However, if something bad happened in the past and you weren’t alive for another 100 years to experience it…then why are you acting like it happened to you yesterday? The point being…none of these guys talking about the Opium war even existed during that time. Their grandfather’s didn’t even exist at that time. In fact, this case doesn’t even relate to it at all. This British citizen did not transport the drugs there working for the British government. He didn’t wage a war and kill tons of people to force them to buy it. That’s why Opium War does not equal British Citizen Being Involved in Drug Smuggling. They only equated it to the Opium war because he was British and it involved drugs.
First all, it’s not you who can determine whether others should be affected by something in the past or not. To do so is exactly why others will you arrogant.
Second, I have no problem with people wanting others to “move on”, but the selective nature of the criticisms telling others to “move on The same people who are telling China to “move on” about its political past clearly have problems telling the likes of Israel and African Americans that they should move on as well. Conversely, they have no problem with telling Tibetans and Uighurs that they should NOT move on.
Why is this?
I’m talking about being affected first-hand. If you had personally been enslaved by someone, for example. If it’s been a hundred or two hundred years, then you’re not being affected by it. Sure, it’s not something you FORGET about. It’s just that there’s no actual need or reason to try to draw a direct correlation between the distant past and current things. This is true for most situations in which someone does refer to the distant past (not all, of course), and in this case referring to this man smuggling drugs into China merits no comparison to a time when a foreign government saw it fit to attack with military and force open a market to sell their drugs by government policy. That’s the point. Now, had the English government sent him to do their bidding, then we’d have a case.
Anyway, the point is, the Opium War was bad and an embarrassing part of history for China and Britain both, but this incident has absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s like claiming the Iraqis have something to do with 9/11 based just on the fact that they’re Muslims.
OK, so you’re comparing the Chinese to the Jews (and implicitly the holocaust) and African Americans (and implicitly with slavery) – this tells me all I need to know about your massively inflated sense of victimhood.
Going on about western nations is a non-sequiter. If you must know I think Israel needs to grow up too, and their treatment of palestinians is certainly disgraceful – but you jsut raise that as a smoke screen anyway.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. “Poor poor china, beaten in a war nearly 200 years ago by nasty pig dog foreigners. Thus we are justified in treating Tibet in exactly the same way if not worse” – no, the state of China is just a massive hypocrite and so are its fanatical apologists.
“Poor China, so abused. Can’t people see that we are justified in doing these awful things, because western nations commit them too?” – stop seeing everything through your post colonial lens and decide what is right and wrong yourself, without reference to your hypocritical sense of injustice and without reference to what other nations do. That’s growing up.
bc,
I don’t agree with everything LOLZ says, but I don’t agree with your response here.
You responded to the translated comments in this post by characterizing their authors as “fanatacally nationalistic and full of a sense of victimhood and post-colonial bitterness”, “as usual”. You then said they “need to get over themselves, and they need to get over the past, and start behaving like a grown-up country.”
LOLZ responded to you by asking you if you’d say the same thing to African Americans and Jews and then made a comment about political correctness. I don’t think it takes a genius to figure out that he is accusing you of being a hypocrite or, at the very least, accusing many Westerners (or maybe just Americans) of being hypocritical.
Now, you’re calling China a “massive hypocrite” as well, in addition to dismissing those who disagree with you as being “fanatical apologists”. There’s more, but I’ll get back to that later.
First, I agree with you that a lot of Chinese commenters need to start behaving more maturely, or “like a grown-up country”, though what defines “grown-up” may be a subjective trap (cough, Hongjiang, cough). But yeah, I think some Chinese people and the Chinese government often trots out some embarrassingly stupid and infantile arguments.
But I see this:
…as you evading the thrust of LOLZ response to you. You criticized Chinese commenters, and he’s criticizing you back, alluding to the hypocrisy of Western commenters like yourself. You then return the favor. This is name-calling. Both of you are simultaneously right and wrong, depending on who you apply the criticism to.
LOLZ isn’t denying that Chinese commenters can be immature, or that they have a sense of victimhood. I don’t see him saying their victimhood justifies their treatment of others either. That’s you putting words in his mouth. He’s simply pissed off, feeling that some people selectively apply the “get over the past” admonishment. He’s suggesting that people selectively trot out that admonishment depending on the target, hypocritically using it against some people but not other people on the basis of what is politically correct.
That’s a reasonable point and criticism, is it not? Just as your point and criticism is reasonable when applied to the right target? His criticism is just as true as your’s is, just as both of your criticisms are not true when applied to those innocent of it. You found inspiration in the translated comments to apply your criticism, LOLZ found inspiration in your comment to apply his.
Is it difficult to acknowledge and agree on this?
Next, you’re misrepresenting the point behind LOLZ question as to whether you’d say the same to African Americans and Jews. His comparison is not about magnitude of victimhood, his comparison is about how those who feel victimized are respectively treated. He’s not saying the Chinese have suffered a Holocaust or institutional slavery (arguable on this one), as you misrepresent, he’s saying your criticisms of the Chinese can also be applied to African Americans and Jews…and so he’s “wondering” if you would treat them as you are treating the Chinese, if you would demand the same things as you demand of the Chinese.
He’s asking you to deny what he assumes to be your hypocrisy. Do you feel the same way toward African Americans and Jews as you do towards the Chinese? All three of these groups arguably display some engrained sense of victimhood whether you feel it is justified or not. When you tell one to shut up, stop wallowing in their victimhood, get over the past, and grow up, you’re definitely going to get someone asking what your criteria is for dispensing such advice.
So what is it?
Instead of offering it, which might actually disarm LOLZ, you accuse him of having a “massively inflated
sense of victimhood” which doesn’t advance the discussion or disprove his accusation. You merely repeated your initial gripe. On the other hand, him thinking you’re a hypocrite doesn’t substantiate your accusation that he has a sense of victimhood.
Going on about Western nations is NOT a non sequitur except in the minds of those who want to artificially limit the target of discussion and criticism to China and the Chinese only. This is a blog populated by people of different backgrounds and nationalities. When one nationality/ethnicity starts criticizing another nationality/ethnicity, you’re going to get people crying foul and demanding fairness over hypocrisy. Get used to this just as Chinese people need to get used to the fact that, yes, they’re going to get criticized on the world stage. When you attack someone, someone’s going to question your attacks or attack you back. This is how society works, right?
So you think Israel needs to grow up. How about African Americans? If you think they need to grow up too, how easy it would’ve been for you to shut LOLZ up, if you just said so? You would’ve proven that you’re not a hypocrite and he’d be forced to simply disagree with you. Instead, you press on, trying to pin something on him that he didn’t deny.
You accuse his accusation of your hypocrisy as a smoke-screen. A smoke-screen for what? For admitting that some Chinese people wallow in their sense of victimhood? An attempt to deflect attention from your target of choice in a discussion between different nationalities/ethnicities? What?
Rather, we can argue that your response is a smoke-screen for defending your consistency in admonishing people with victimhood complexes to grow up. LOLZ took issue with you and turned the spotlight back onto you, you felt uncomfortable, and you’re turning the spotlight back onto him not by proving him wrong but by accusing him of putting the spotlight on you at all. You’re both defensive. EVERYONE is defensive in these situations.
I don’t think LOLZ said two wrongs make a right, did he? I don’t think he said China and the Chinese are justified in “treating Tibet in exactly the same way if not worse”, did he? I don’t think he ever asked why people can’t see that Chinese are justified in doing these awful things BECAUSE western nations do them too, did he?
You’re putting words in his mouth, trying to advance a hypocrisy argument against him as he advanced against you. How was his response, the one you’re replying to, seeing anything through “post colonial lens”? He is his response NOT deciding “what is right and wrong” by himself? He, himself, by himself decided that he didn’t like what you’re saying, what you may represent, that it was wrong, that hypocrisy is wrong, that hypocrisy on the basis of political correctly is worthy of criticism and contempt. He decided this by himself, without reference to any hypocritical sense of injustice or what other nations do.
He accused you of being a hypocrite. You accused him back, albeit by planting words of hypocrisy in his mouth. Now what?
I said I’d get back to your “fanatical apologists” characterization. How would you like it if all Chinese dismissed Western commenters as “self-righteous hypocrites?” I indulge in that myself at times, in the same exasperation as you. Sometimes we have to, to comfort ourselves when we can’t make any headway in a disagreement, but you do see how uttering that is a discussing-ender, right? What made you think LOLZ is a fanatical apologist? Is it what he stands for or what you think he stands for? How is that different from him assuming you’re a hypocrite by questioning whether you’d say the same things to African Americans and Jews?
What is your goal? Is it to help China grow up or is it to have the freedom to tell China to grow up as you please? One is somewhat benevolent, the other inherently selfish.
Well, I apologise for allowing my comment to become so polarised and emotional, you are right to say I shouldn’t throw characterise people as fanatical nationalists unless I am sure. However, I don’t think jews or african americans really come into it at all, which was the point I was trying to make. First, LOLZ can’t accuse me of “hypocrisy” because I haven’t made clear what my position is on jews and African Americans. If Jews and African Americans go around constantly defending everything they do not on its self-evident ethical basis but rather based on some revenge or sense of victimhood from the past then that would be just as worthy of being called out.
I don’t see that there is any hypocrisy charge to be answered there, it is just a diversion. You might be able to accuse western states of hypocrisy on similar issues, but you can accuse most any state of hypocrisy on similar matters. I didn’t hang out a sign saying “I’m an acolyte of the West” after all.
bc,
No, African Americans and Jews don’t come into what you were trying to say, the point you were trying to make: China needs to grow up.
But they do come into what he was trying to say, the point he was trying to make: People who say things like you say them selectively, against some but not others.
Yeah, he changed the subject, shifted the spotlight onto you, but you do see how silly it is to think you can demand that he sit there and play by your rules and artificial limits on who can be targeted in a discussion or criticism, right?
And his point is relevant to the greater discussion involving non-Chinese on Chinese issues: Hypocrisy is freaking annoying. No one likes being criticized for something they see the person criticizing as also being guilty of.
The key here is not jumping to the fallacious conclusion that the person accusing hypocrisy is trying to justify their wrong. Yes, some people may do this, but be sure they say something to that effect. The vast majority of the time, they’re just seeking some understanding instead of what they feel is unfair and hypocritical judgement. Indulge in the latter and both sides are going to have their dirty laundry dragged out.
It shouldn’t be a contest of seeing who is worse, but so often that’s what it is because the participants, more often than not, make unreasonable comments because they derive a measure of validation by disassociating from a negative and associating that with someone else. The hypocrisy arguments come out all the time when this happens.
LOLZ accuses you of hypocrisy because he assumes you’re like many other people who have proven themselves to be hypocrites JUST AS you assume he’s a fanatical apologist who is gearing up to justify/excuse Chinese wrongs with victimhood. Technically, he asked you what your position is on Jews and African Americans. He gave you a chance to respond, though I agree he commented as if he already knew the answer. Yet, you still had the chance to set him straight and you did, in part, with your response about what you think of Israel. However, like I said, you gave him more ammo by not simply disappointing his assumption. You committed the same sin as him.
Look, I make the same mistakes too. It’s very easy to typecast people who disagree with you on contentious issues or over controversial statements. I’m not addressing you because I’m not prone to the same mistakes, I’m addressing this phenomenon because I see it as a major roadblock towards some actual meaningful, intelligent, and properly nuanced discussion about China and the issues that involve China.
I think you would’ve shut LOLZ up if you just stated “Actually, yes, I’d say the same damn thing to African Americans and Jews if they wrote something like the above, if they abused and invoked their historical victimhood in such a way. Let me try to explain why I think that is the case here…”
Of course, that’s predicated on whether you’d actually say the same damn thing. Only you know that for sure. But again, as you’ve typecasted LOLZ, he’s typecasting you. His response, in question form, was testing you, which, admittedly, is smarter than him immediately accusing you. He has a hunch and he’s seeing if you’ll prove it right.
The hyporisy charge is there because it’s one way for the accuser to determine where the discussion is going to go next. If you deny it, then you’re dismissed as a self-righteous hypocrite out not to help anyone but only to express your own contempt. If you acknowledge it, then you’re showing that you might actually have principles you care about and work towards that aren’t limited by race, ethnicity, or nationality. You’re implicitly saying you’re falliable too and you two are on the same level. Everyone wants to feel they’re being talked to on the same level, instead of being talked down to.
It isn’t a diversion. It’s an all too common litmus test, even when people don’t consciously administer it as one. The people who think it is a diversion are usually those who selfishly want to artificially limit the blame and culpability of some ill onto their desired target. One thinks “fuck, we’re talking about YOU, not ME!” except the other person is sick of hearing the one talking shit about them. When you reach that point, the discussion is already over, and it has already degenerated into mud-slinging and smearing each other. Was that the original goal of starting the conversation?
That’s why I asked the final question I did in my last response to you.
Yes, we’re all hypocrites in one way or another and likely in mostly the same ways. Same for our countries and whatever group we identify with or are associated with. I think LOLZ implicitly understands your frustration with victimhood being exploited, but you should understand his frustration with hypocrisy as well. You guys, hell, we all need to start from certain basic understandings like these.
Unless our goal is just to spew contempt and protect our freedom to do so. For some, that’s the case.
Alot of the commenter here are hypocritical that they refuse to acknowledge that other side of the issue, which is, you westerners are just like us. Just look at the typical net commenters from the west and the east, not so different now are they (ex: look at the dogs fighting comments).
Oh wait, that’s right, it is okay for the West to subtly reinforce negative stereotypes in every damn thing they do to the point where “hating” on chinese people is nothing (LOL). Of course you guys so superior.
I hate America. The End.
Whether he had broke Chinese law or not, only officially took a half hour by a group of Chinese judges to determine. What do people really know about these judges are? I’m not going to belabor the point, but those who are really interested in the state of jurisprudence within the PRC, should research how someone is named to be a judge, and what academic qualifications are required, and what constitutes the trial process. The results that you find will be frightening. Many of these “judges” have absolutely no legal training, the majority don’t even have any sort of degree (much less one in law) and the bulk of them pass rulings on the cases presented to them in accordance with CCP expectations; that is, they rubber stamp the party’s determination as to whether someone is innocent or guilty. This is essentially what is meant when Chinese scholars discuss the PRC’s legal system as a rule by law (the law is used by a select few to control the masses, they themselves are never subject to it) rather than a rule of law (the law is applied equally to and for all).
The problem is, absent a reliable legal infrastructure, there is no real way of comparison to that other nations. One cannot assume that a “fair trail” within the PRC means the same as the accepted process of other nations. Thus, whether he broke Chinese law or not, is really debatable, even as it is immaterial. Here’s why; if one really looks upon the statement made by the Chinese spokeswoman, it really didn’t have anything to do with the man’s guilt, innocence, or frankly, even the smuggling of drugs. The statements made by the Chinese official (from Yahoo):
Quote: “…But in Beijing officials remained defiant. “China has fully protected the defendant’s litigation rights,” foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told reporters. “We express our strong dissatisfaction and opposition to Britain’s accusations. We hope the British side will face this case squarely and not create new obstacles for China-Britain relations,” she added.”
Notice what wasn’t said; litigation rights and legal rights are separate and distinct from one another; they are not interchangeable and I suspect that the PRC is fully aware of this. The problem here is that this viewpoint can thus affect and be applied to the entirety of all Chinese living in China. The point made here is, that the Brits just wanted to free one delusional man back into their care, while the Chinese government’s problem isn’t so much of the drugs, but the road towards ensuring fair and legal rights in trials for ALL Chinese litigants; and THAT it is NOT willing to do. Hence, the Brit got the same justice that any Chinese in China can expect from their legal system. I know that many of the respondents here could care less about one nutty Brit, but how about the tens of thousands of Chinese condemned to death, and executed each year from this system? I find it amazing that the Chinese government was thus able to con even it’s own people into thinking that this was a national sovereignty issue; defending their honor against the evil white man, who had notoriously brought opium into China so long ago? LOL… I can’t believe how people can be so gullible.
Lest anyone thinks that this is an issue of westerner trying to be above the law, the issue of white men or woman (North American, European, Australian, etc) being incarcerated for drug offenses in other countries is not rare. Frankly, it has been going on so much that they actually made a movie called Midnight Express back in 1978. Nowadays, plenty of hapless Anglos grace the lock ups of Thailand, Brazil, Malaysia, Turkey, Mexico… so the idea isn’t all that novel. If you do the crime, you should do the time, and sometimes that means death. People can accept that. What is hard to swallow here is the Chinese pretense of a fair trial. The people who should remain most frightened by this of course, are us Chinese.
Very well said. You mentioned in the last paragraph about the westerners frequenting the jail cells of other nations for drug-related charges. I know it’s a TV show, but based on true stories…if you’ve ever seen “locked up abroad”, you’ll realize there’s no shortage of westerners being put in jail for drug smuggling and having to do their time. At least some years worth of it. From what I understand, there isn’t a whole lot of effort to “save” these people from it by their governments either. Of course, they weren’t being put on death row, either.
What’s the point of a legal system anyway? Is it to emulate other legal systems or is it to curb crime?
If China’s legal system is successful to curb drug usage, crime rates, etc. then it’s doing its job right. The last time I checked China has a low drug usage and violent crime rate per population comparing to many advanced developed nations, and definitely most developing nations.
Looking at how often criminals in the western nations get away with their crimes and their ill gotten wealth (hidden in Swiss accounts, of course), before you argue that China should learn more from the Western justice systems, shouldn’t you at least explore how effective the said justice systems are?
LOLZ, you’ve made a lot of good points elsewhere but I’m afraid you shot yourself in the foot here.
Yes, the point of a legal system is, in part, to curb crime, NOT emulating other legal systems. Good point.
The problem with your argument here is that you’re actually suggesting that China’s legal system is successfully curbing crime when there are too many high-profile and widely-known examples of it NOT doing so. I’m not saying the system hasn’t worked in some way or even effectively in certain types of crime, but this argument just isn’t persuasive enough and you should’ve left it at “meant to curb crime, not emulate others”.
Drug usage rates and crime rates are like almost all statistics in China, notoriously unreliable because the government controls the gathering of them. Even absent that fact, there are the confounding factors of them not being reported for one reason or another, like being settled under the table, thrown out or expunged through connections, etc.
It’s also really hard to point at how often “criminals in western nations get away with their crimes and their ill gotten wealth” when so many foreigners and ESPECIALLY so many Chinese will instantly think of corrupt businessmen, coal mine bosses, organized crime lords, and (get ready for it) government officials doing the exact same.
Of course, what you highlight about crimes and criminals in the West isn’t made untrue by the sad facts of crimes and criminals in China, but I just don’t think this was a good avenue of argument for you to have walked down. You’ve put yourself in an easily compromised position, rhetorically, and those who disagree with you are liable to exploit this to fallaciously discredit you and then the rest of your arguments, many of which are sound and reasonable.
Are you a lawyer kai? if not you ought to be!
I was a soldier in Hong kong in the 1960s. Triads and drug dealer were quite active there. I do believe some were executed, I cannot remember any ‘Hue and cry’ from mainland China or anybody else, a long time ago however.
LOLZ
Legal system curbing crime. Lets look at corruption and public officials in China. There are approximately 1,200 statutes on the books in China at present. Do they curb corruption. Pigs bum. Corruption chews up at least 5% of GDP. If you are outside China, do a google news search.
LOLZ asked: “What’s the point of a legal system anyway? Is it to emulate other legal systems or is it to curb crime?”
Therein (in the above comment) is illustrative of what many Chinese don’t understand. They claim that the “Chinese system doesn’t need to emulate other systems so long as it curbs crime.” I actually agree with this precept wholeheartedly.
However, the Chinese system was never intended to curb crime; it was created purely to curb dissent and public unrest. The court system in the PRC is but one of many tools of public control that the CCP regularly uses.
Again, if this one foreigner got himself a fair trial, then everyone else in China would start demanding one too. And THAT, they CAN’T allow. If judges became independent and trial really were fair, the CCP would easily crumble under the weight of its own corruption. In other words, applying the law in the way that it was meant to be applied, is actually a threat to the survival of the Party.
Frankly, Chinese law is actually fairly straight forward and reasonable, even when compared to the western model. However, the application of it through the Chinese court system renders law moot, Chinese or otherwise. Law itself becomes meaningless as the judge’s final decisions are almost always directed by the needs of the CCP.
So, in essence, the Chinese legal system is a de facto extension or end point of the CCP’s political decision making process. It has nothing to do with law or crime prevention at all.
ralphrepo you have made great points with your original comment but I think your cynicism and disdain towards the state of Chinese law and the CCP in general is frankly so overwhelming it borders on the unreasonable.
No doubt the communist party is interested in self preservation, but it should not be too difficult to imagine that the vehicles of such preservation involves keeping the people content. To say “Chinese system was never intended to curb crime” is specious and hardly logical. The interest of the public is not diametrically opposed to a monolithic communist cabal as you suggest, rather it is in the long term interest of the CCP leadership to combat corruption within its (extremely large) ranks and crimes within the society, and one of the ways it can achieve this is through an independent judiciary.
Moreover I don’t think a lenient treatment for a foreigner will become the lighting rod of public demand for judicial reform that you seem to think, you underestimate the public’s existing desire for equitable rule of law and the effort of a many who labor for reform in the constitution of China not the least of which was the inclusion of private property rights a few years back – a sure sign as any of inevitable change to come.
You accurately pointed out the pathetic under qualification of many jurists in China today, but again where you see a orwellian plot to control the public, I see the result of cultural revolution where many subjects in universities were prohibited and the great majority of students chose a few apolitical degrees which did not include law. If the CCP really had absolute control of the courts, I would think the most prudent and party-preserving option would have been to quietly acquiesce to British government requests and lock Akmal Shaikh up instead of executing him.
—-
it’s like 4 in the morning here and I’ve had way more corndogs and beer tonight than anyone should, so if there stuff that don’t make sense, just skip it and pretend it isn’t there, I know I will tomorrow.
Ah, finally someone with an informed opinion that can disagree without the miasma of nationalism and ad hominem reactions. I sincerely thank you for your comments.
Political cynicism only comes about after prolonged and repeated exposure to an inertial state of affairs. The court system in the PRC really fails to have the independence that is needed to render fair judgment. I agree with your assessment that academically, the entire legal profession was chilled as a secondary effect post Cultural Revolution. I recognize too, the small changes that have taken place with infusion of recently graduated, but academically qualified lawyers and some jurists. This alone holds tremendous promise.
However, where it matters, the hands of the court remain tied to party concerns. An example would be the Sichuan earthquake redress issue; thousands of grieving parents remain hounded by police, and even their lawyers have been threatened, or told to “back off” by the state. The crime likely committed (as least there is wide public perception within China of this) was the embezzlement of construction funds; less costly or likely substandard building supplies being substituted, which likely had a serious impact in the total number of school children deaths across the entire earthquake affected region. How such a matter can avoid prosecution, much less to be not exhaustively investigated, is beyond me. But my guess is, the party says so, so that’s the why and how, and the courts will duly comply. The pervasive avoidance of such cases, along with court avoidance in the milk scandal case too, is public knowledge.
My original statement of the “Chinese system was never intended to curb crime” you deride as being specious and hardly logical. Forgive me, but IMHO, that is exactly the extant state of affairs, and it can be partially explained by your other statement, that “The interest of the public is not diametrically opposed to a monolithic communist cabal…” with which I agree. There are many instances in which the needs of the party and of the people become coincidental (like overlapping subsets), so that both have common and vested interest in certain matters. It is only when the public interest diverges from or opposes party thought or state process, that the real intent of the court system then becomes apparent, because in court, the party never loses. Hence, would it be really that unreasonably cynical to assume that the system’s primary purpose is protect the party rather than to curb crime? I think not. Should we, as rational and reasonable men who hold to ideals of fairness, regard such a system with disdain? I would certainly think so.
I wholly agree with your assessment that a long term solution and the party’s best interest lies in having an independent judiciary and in fighting corruption; but there in lies the rub. The party can only control the masses through its network of thuggery, influence, and fear. Hence, an independent court system would obviously threaten the party as we know it. A recent example of this is the showy public trials now ongoing in Chongqing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/6357024/China-corruption-trial-exposes-capital-of-graft.html
This particular case is emblematic of what the party has become, and that situation is suspected to be have been replicated in just about every major Chinese city. Thus, instead of being outsiders railing against the corruption and excess of the controlling powers (like the Qing and KMT that came before it), the party has literally become the corrupt controlling power. If the CCP was ever indicted under US federal law (as unlikely as that would ever be, but used here as an illustration), they would be prosecuted under the Racketeering, Influence & Corrupt Organization statutes that were designed to fight the crimes of mafia syndicates. China suffered during the Qing and Nationalist rule by its prolonged failure to reign in corruption, and now the CCP is likely to fall on that same sword. Its hands are in so deep and the lines of influence extend pervasively so far from top to bottom that severance of crime ties would be impossible without some sort of wide spread amnesty structure. Given the Chinese public penchant for flesh engine searches and massed anger, the CCP has gotten itself onto the tiger’s back and doesn’t quite know how to get off. One the one hand, it knows what it must do, on the other it knows that it can’t afford to, else it may harbinger the demise of the CCP as we know it. I think for this reason alone, the CCP was reluctant to release the man back to British hands, even for “humanitarian reasons” (which plays better abroad than domestically). The Party rightly read that the people would have been likewise offended had the foreigner been let off scot free. But that left it a Hobson’s choice didn’t it? So it was thus forced into the political corner of having to execute the man, since it shows that they were treating him the same as ever other Chinese.
Lastly, back to your original remark of my being cynical, it may be interesting for you to read this last bit from the above link:
“…Outside the Number Five courtroom, however, not everyone in the crowd is so optimistic. Yu Jingqing, a 72-year-old grandmother who lives nearby, expressed doubts that the ties between the government and the gangs have really been broken. ‘Look at Wen Qiang. He is the godfather, so why is he being put on trial outside the city? He will probably get off. Why was his brother not arrested. What about his son. What about his properties. Is he moving his wealth overseas? There are still plenty of criminals out there’”
So pass the corndogs and I’ll have a chilled one too if you can spare it. All this talk salty political talk is making me thirsty.
Cheers.
I don’t condone execution as an appropriate method of punishment in any country, However, it is the law in China and drug traffickers must understand that if they’re caught then there are consequences to be faced.
This guy wasn’t stupid. He knew the consequences of crossing a border carrying drugs and he got caught. Would the sentence been any different in some other Asian countries? I think not. Why should China be an exception? I have to, together with the great majority of British people, agree with the Chinese government’s decision on this matter.
One British was executed and it made a NEWS. Thousands of Chinese are executed every year; they make no news. What a Hippocratic human society.
It’s because when stuff like that happen in China their government does well to keep it secret from the rest of the world.
Like the Holocaust for example. It took years before the World Powers finally realized that a mass extermination was taking place in Europe. Why? because Hitler was so good at keeping it hidden from the rest of the world.
Except that China actually admits to enough of an annual execution rate that it’s already more than the entire world’s combined. And those are the ones that are admitted to…
I wonder if a chinese commit the same crime in UK, will the chinese government intervene? I guess not…
That’s because Westerners value human life more than Chinese. And our governments work harder for our people that your government.
China executes a lot but it also has the largest population. I think Singapore has the highest execution per population and most comes from drug mules actually.
Hippocratic? I think you mean hypocritical?
Um, if it makes no news, how do you know it happens.
Names, dates and places are welcome!
A lot of people have been saying that the court was right not to allow a psychiatric examination without prior evidence of a mental disorder as this would allow criminal to falsely plead insanity after the fact. This makes no sense:
1) Psychiatrists are not easily fooled.
2) Even if you believe that a criminal could fake insanity, what do you believe would stop them doing it before the crime so they could have their defence ready for the trial?
3) Insane people confess to crimes which they did not commit all the time. Are you saying that, where no prior evidence of mental problems exists, the court should not submit such a person to a psychiatric exam to see whether their plea is genuine?
4) It is quite possible for mental problems to remain undetected for a long time, or for them to suddenly appear following, for example, a head injury or shocking/traumatic experience. Are you saying that where such a problem appears, and the person concerned commits a crime without their condition first being properly diagnosed, that there should be no examination to see whether they were mentally disturbed or not?
I was one of the people who said the court acted in accordance to law when they made their decision to not turn over the death sentence.
1. Could be one way or another…so, okay.
2. I do not claim to have some keen insight into the criminal mind, but common sense reasons why criminals would not take prior insanities include:
– They do not believe they will be caught, or they would rather not think about it. This is not as absurd as it sounds, we are all marching towards death from the moment of birth yet many if not most do not contemplate death because it is dreadful. Drug dealers do not rationally think about the day when they are caught.
– They are not exemplars of those who demonstrate keen foresight, probably very few bothered to consult actuarial tables on average life expectancies of a drug dealer or employed reason to examine their career outlook, or else likely a different profession would have been chosen.
– Practicality. It takes more than a visit to some drive-through psychiatrist to establish a credible history of mental illness. Drug dealer’s boss probably does not look kindly to a lackey who regularly goes to a psychiatrist, might terminate lackey’s position. Severance package is usually a bullet. Moreover, suppose illness is firmly established, there is a good chance psychiatrist might try to detain and ship said lackey to an asylum or ward. “Just kidding!” probably would not convince or amuse the psychiatrist.
3. Akmal Shaikh did not confess to the crime. So this is sort of besides the point.
4. His supposed lifelong mental illness was not a sudden condition, nor was it mentioned at the first trial and only brought up during appeals. A person with a sudden or temporary insane episode can plead insanity at trial court for psychiatric examination but not after losing the case and wants to try again. The appellate court did not see evidence of life long illness as claimed by the attorneys enter into evidence, therefore no psychiatrist.
1) So you don’t actually believe that they are easy to fool.
2) This is a point of law we are arguing. You are saying that not allowing psychiatric exam after the fact prevents false insanity claims, but on a point of act this is wrong.
3) Once again, this is a point of law. From this it can clearly be seen how allowing testing for insanity after the fact is actually desirable under many circumstances, and therefore why denying it in this case is wrong.
4) But the decision of the court of first instance is not final, and should be overturned if there is evidence that it was it was in error. From this and the above points it is clear that not only was this case potentially unjust, but if this reasoning is followed in future it will lead to further injustice. You seem to be assuming that an insane person will recognise his insanity, a moments reflection should tell you that this is very often not the case. It is the duty of the court to protect such people.
I believe you and ralphrepo have convinced me, to the extent that although the law was carried out in this case, the law itself is deeply flawed and in need of reform.
He probably should have received psychiatric evaluations if not on merits of evidence then at least out of a utilitarian calculus of public welfare for future considerations. I am however still dubious of Akmal Shaikh’s mental illness. If he wanted to plead affirmative defense like insanity he should not wait to appellate court after he lost a negative defense at trial, seems like trying to have two bites at the proverbial apple.
In any case, thanks for the comments.
whichone Re drug dealers bosses and psychiatry. Lets look at the record. Tony Soprano probably dealt drugs, definitely went to a psych, and he lasted 6 seasons. Tony Montana/Scarface definitely sold drugs by the container load, and he lasted almost three hours in the directors cut.
As for “we are marching towards death from the moment of birth”, yes I agree. Evidence. Well the young juvenile males in Columbia employed by the cartels to whack people (about $200US per job), visit their deceased friends in the cemetary every Sunday. They smoke dope and have conversations with their departed amigos. Why: They know they will be joining them soon enough. They understand the actuarial stats: dead before you turn eighteen.
They understand the actuarial stats: dead before you turn eighteen.
Man that is depressing.
as for everything else, heh.
Point 1-
The nationalism in the youth is frieghting.Exactly what the Western powers want which is to stoke a new Cold War which will provide unlimted military funding in the U.S. and drive U.S. manufacturers back home as well.
Point 2- When we we stop the Anti-British Opium War crap. The truth is Opium was already very popular and grown everywhere in the South of China. The British just imported the “High End” for a niche market. You don’t think Chinese could learn how to grow opium?
The foriegn Devil concept was used to consolidate the governments drug trafficking and kick out the competition.
Typical Chinese mob mentality. Blood thirsty animals. Whether or not the guy was genuinely mentally ill becomes a moot point if the government don’t even allow a proper analysis in the first place. That’s the real misjustice. Give the people what they want though. Foreign blood, hyped up nationalism in the name of ‘our beloved motherland’, and a sense of misplaced pride at the government flexing it’s muscles in the face of an old colonialist. This country is fucking doomed, and the hilarious thing is, its ignorant masses can’t see it coming.
@shanghairocks, you’re a fucktard.
This a good day for China. This lets other nations, foreigners and the world know that they are not immune to the laws of China. China is a World Power and it’s about time that us foreigners are in the same check as the Chinese. This shows that we are equal and not above the laws. Total Props!
Total Props? Don’t you get it, man? They kill one foreigner, but behind the scenes the same system kills tens of thousands of Chinese every year with the same sham courtroom process. In other words, what you’re cheering on is the system that indiscriminately kills lots of Chinese people. Total props… NOT.
The Brits can be commended for freeing the convicted Lockerbie bomber on humanitarian grounds or was it the Scots, there was some talk about a business deal with the Libyans though. British Law also charged a former Israeli minister for crimes against humanity and issued a warrant of arrest.
china and chinese are always right,so guys chill and forget about these noise makers”””’
should we forget the past? of course not, the chinese murdered one of every six tibetans, and they are still killing Tibetans and minorities in the streets of their homeland. as chinese remember Japanese and the British, we Tibetans will never forget chinese ethnic cleansing policies. very soon, we are going to kick out china from tibet like they did Japanese and Mongols.
I am against the death penalty first of all.
I don’t belive this guy had a mental illness. He carried the dope, bought the plane ticket and had plenty of financial motive to do so. He got greedy and messed up in the wrong country. His history says it all: a risktaker with little or no morals, a man who ran away from responsibility any chance he got. His history didn’t say anything about mental illness on the other hand.
The one area China messed up was by not commuting his sentence to let’s say 20 years in prison. Executing other countries’ citizens is always problematic, the guy would probably not survive 20 years anyway and none of this would ever have been a case. Just like they do in Thailand, Lao, Vietnam,, apart from the 1-2 cases a year where the idiots claim they thought the 10 kilos in their bag, put there by an unknown man, was in fact just baking powder.
Yes putting him in prison would work if the Chinese could extract finance from the other countries (Origin of Akmal Shaikh) to put up the cost. Otherwise it’s just eating the country’s tax payers money.
China has its own laws on drugs. So does alot of other countries which does use the death penalty for drugs. It reminds me of another case which involved an Vietnamese Aussie who was executed by Singapore.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Tuong_Nguyen
Sure, there will be community outcry, chest beating by leaders and media attention.
The real question is would this case change anything?
It is still business as usual between Singapore and Australia.
Everyone knows the “mental illness” thing is a shaky last ditch defense, but do people in China know it’s common to use it in other countries? Or do they assume this kind “cheap trick” is only applied when outsiders deal with China?
What’s important is that EVERYONE IS TAKING THIS OUT OF CONTEXT. Only sad, insecure boys spending their entire days online will try to link this to “historical shame” or some such bullshit.
All 1st world countries will try to extract a citizen convicted of a crime in another country, even if they believe he or she is guilty. It is standard procedure to use any diplomatic and legal means to do so. In Canada, we tried to pull out Canadians whenever they get in trouble no matter what it is they did or which country they did it in. Even when Canadians dont’ sympathize with the person. This isn’t some kind of insult to whatever country, nor is it a prideful gesture in assuming superiority. It’s simply standard practice.
I agree with the Chinese court’s ruling. But the Opium wars, past imperialism, China’s rise etc. has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CASE.
Right. Thank you. I think they don’t realize that even if the person is pulled out of the country after being arrested, they are generally still put on trial and punished in their own country as long as the law broken is also one in their own country. So, had they removed the guy from China, they’d still put him on trial, I’m sure.
if it doesn’t do with this case then fine, then you should tell the Gordon and his people to stop whining maybe those Chinese youth wouldn’t bring up this issue right?
…But of course this British guy and his case is USED as a rallying point for the self-loathing, inferiority complex having nationalist youth. SO, ‘off with his head’ right Emperor Hu?
Shit hasn’t changed for a thousand years STILL!
However, the guy was still a douchebag…
Has anyone yet compared the case of the British Government protest to the Chinese regarding Akmal Shaikh’s execution and yet they will soon hand over by extradition to the Americans a man with a known lifelong mental condition, the Computer ‘Hacker’ Gary McKinon. (He Hacked into the Pentagon systems) He faces a lifelong prison sentence; or do the Americans just want him for his expertise?
Gary’s mother did.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241213/Gary-mcKinnons-mother-blast-hypocrite-Brown-appeals-save-drug-smugglers-life.html
Drug smugglers always have ready-made excuses when they get caught. He knew what the penalty for smuggling drugs into China was, but nevertheless arrived in China with 4,030 grams of hard drugs in his luggage. Maybe he was suicidal.
You get death for 50 grams here; the guy got caught with 80 times that amount. He got the same deal a citizen gets.
The media say he was just being a nice guy carrying somebody else’s suitcase across national border; sorry but it’s been common sense since customs services were invented to thoroughly check anything you’re asked to run past them. Nor was the lad on his first trip abroad.
He would also have known that any alien anywhere is subject to the the laws of the host country, just like any other pedestrian sharing his sidewalk of the moment. Lemme know if that changes so I can take out Saudi citizenship and have four wives in Paris or New York.
It’s also kinda fun to see all the media using the same photo of a mug with a happy-go-lucky half-crazy grin on it. We all have a thousand faces. I’m sure some of his look more single-minded.
A deeper issue is that the guy is nominally a subject of a kingdom that once forced China at gunpoint to _legalize_ the sale of opium (from which we make heroin nowadays). That still hits a really raw nerve here: it took the Communists four full years to eradicate drug addiction in 1953 and start undoing the net population decline of 40 million people since the infamous Opium Wars that started in 1839 (more cosmetically called “Open Door Policy”).
For an idea of how seriously raw that nerve is, the last pair of crackpot aliens who got death in China were an Italian and a Japanese who bungled an attempt to assassinate the head of state in 1951.
Four years to eradicate drug addiction is remarkable and shouldn’t be seen as something that “took a long time”. However, drug addictions exist with or without legalization. There’s quite a bit of Chinese drug addicts now even though it’s illegal.
1839 was a long, long time ago. Really long time ago.
Not entirely sure how the “Opium War” raw nerve relates to the assassination attempt, though.
@Arthur. This is just for your information. I think if you become a Saudi citizen you could expect to have as many as four wives as long as you are married over there. Subsequently, if you were to travel to Paris, London, and New York etc. your marriage to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th wife would not be legally recognised in that country. I think the respective authorities would either recognise your 1st wife, or under the circumstances, they would only allow you to nominate one woman as your legal spouse. The other three wives would not be recognised according to French, British nor US jurisdiction; but of course, under the law of Sha’ria, your marriage to the other women would still be recognised according to Islam. Your concurrent marriage to other women would still hold as legally binding in Saudi Arabia or in any other Islamic state.
Some folks think 150 years ago is a long time ago. If you’re American, heck, it’s about 60% of your country’s lifespan.
For China, it’s 3.3% of 5,000 years.
And you can still read the fear of the Yellow Hordes between the lines of much Western media coverage of China when the hordes were Mongol, not Han: even though on paper it qualifies the Beijing-based Yuan Dynasty, the Yuan were Mongols, not Han.
It doesn’t matter how old your country is. Seriously. Time travels the same speed for a 5,000 year old country as it does a 1 year old country.
The idea of it being a “long time ago” is what percentage of your own personal lifespan? Or the lifespan of this generation that’s on the blogs complaining about this Opium War that is not only unrelated in any real sense, but also nothing that they, or anyone that they know has ever experienced. Because it was around 170 years ago. They don’t have to forget the Opium War has ever happened, but they definitely need to stop acting like it happened yesterday and is actually still England’s policy or even relevant to anyone’s policy now.
Jones, if you’re American, it’s 60% of your nation’s lifespan; if you’re Chinese is 3.3% of 5,000 years.
They have the Opium Wars wired into, and alive inside, their DNA.
Jones, if you’re American, 1839 to 2010 is about 70% of your nation’s lifespan; if you’re Chinese is 3.3% of 5,000 years.
They have the Opium Wars wired into, and alive inside, their DNA.
You’re missing the point. The age of the nation has no relevance to the amount of time since the event happened. And, besides, the PRC is only 60 years old(since you’re judging the age of America from when it gained independence rather than during it’s past as colonies under Britain’s control…and the other parts under the control of other European nations).
But it doesn’t matter if China is 170 years old or 500,000 eons old. The age has nothing to do with how long ago it happened or how relevant it is to current events.
You want China to get up to your speed in a New York minute: um, about 80 km. from where I live, there is one, maybe two, DF-5A ICBMs targeting New York. The warheads aren’t even mounted. They’re stored at a separate facility according to the Federation of American Scientists. Shows how much they care.
You wanna go back to Plymouth Rock? OK, so let’s say 50%. No, don’t go back to Columbus: he only made it to the Caribbean Islands and Colombia.
I can’t give you a whole E-learning course on Culture but it’s what you have in your bones, made from the soil that has fed, flooded, quaked and emotionally stirred your family for millennia. Culture is there, in your eyes, heart and mind like air in your lungs at every instant.
Culture is what has always faithfully sewn China back together every time it’s been occupied and/or dismembered.
The USA and China are two distinct cases. The current republic may only be 60 years of age, but it was built upon a past; the USA is a transplanted orphan of European culture grafted onto a culture it destroyed (well, there are a few million Native Americans left). You have started a new lineage and it will remain vulnerable for many centuries to come.
I have no long-term worries for China, Iraq or Afghanistan: they are past masters of damage control thanks to numerous invasions.
I do however worry for the USA.
“You want China to get up to your speed in a New York minute: um, about 80 km. from where I live, there is one, maybe two, DF-5A ICBMs targeting New York. The warheads aren’t even mounted. They’re stored at a separate facility according to the Federation of American Scientists. Shows how much they care.”
What in the world are you talking about? I seriously have no idea what you mean by this or why you’re talking about nuclear missiles.
“Culture is what has always faithfully sewn China back together every time it’s been occupied and/or dismembered.”
Chinese culture as it was 170 years ago is a bit different than it is today. It’s the same everywhere. However, this still has nothing to do with the age of a nation as defined by established government or territory, or does it have anything to do with relevance of the Opium War to this topic.
“The USA and China are two distinct cases. The current republic may only be 60 years of age, but it was built upon a past; the USA is a transplanted orphan of European culture grafted onto a culture it destroyed (well, there are a few million Native Americans left). You have started a new lineage and it will remain vulnerable for many centuries to come.”
The US is younger as far as history of the very first establishment of the, for lack of a better word, “civilized” colonies. But if you’re talking about the age of the nation represented by it’s government, then the US is a bit older. But, again, this has nothing to do with Opium War’s relevance to the topic.
“I have no long-term worries for China, Iraq or Afghanistan: they are past masters of damage control thanks to numerous invasions.”
I don’t worry about China having the ability to continue developing. The Chinese have been through hell and back for most of their recorded existence, especially in the past 200 years. Even more so in the past 70 or so years. Iraq and Afghanistan are a bit different. It was a sudden regime change installed by a foreign country. They’re a lot less developed as well and have a long way to go before they have any social cohesion like a country such as the US or China or whatever.
What about the US do you worry about?
Anyway, we were talking about the length of time since the Opium War and how it could possibly be relative to this guy’s drug smuggling apart from a broad and, honestly, ignorant reference to his nationality and the fact that it’s drugs he was arrested for. To me, it’s like if a Japanese guy went nuts and shot up some place in the US and killed several people, and then everyone starts claiming how it’s the return of Pearl Harbor.
1st of all, stop with the 5000years shit. The country in it’s current guise is 60 years MAX. Just because people have lived on a certain half acre of hell for 5000 years doesn’t mean that they are exclusive in that claim or that it is any older than anywhere else on EARTH. Nor does it give them the right to preach to us like we were infants (or for them to behave like infants).
Back on track now…
Congratulations to the British on pursuing this case, if they hadn’t then the Chinese would take it to the next step and start busting or framing all kinds of people for lesser reasons. They’d then say “but you didn’t protest about the crazy guy”. The whole thing is about YOUR rights, what tiny bit if nothing there are of them.
Stu, where do you get your right to preach to them?
Any alien in your country is subject to its laws (unless an accredited diplomat).
The authorities prosecuted the guy according to national law; all death sentences are subject to automatic appellate review to ensure due process. The appeals court confirmed the sentence. Trials are faster in China because you appear before three judges; this approach is used by the US military as well. Three judges reach agreement faster than 12 legally incompetent jurors.
There is discussion of making trials even faster by introducing plea bargaining, but the majority of legal opinion here argues it is too open to abuse. Crime, while still very low by Western standards, has been rising relatively dramatically thanx to transition to a market economy.
He got that right from freedom of speech and information.
Ah Jones! Isn’t it more a sense of economic, military, moral and political superiority?
Do forgive the Chinese for running their own country their own way and solving their own problems likewise.
Dear Arthur,
What in the hell are you talking about?
Thanks,
Jones
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Jones says:
Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 2:25 pm
He got that right from freedom of speech and information.
Reply
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Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou says:
Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Ah Jones! Isn’t it more a sense of economic, military, moral and political superiority?
Do forgive the Chinese for running their own country their own way and solving their own problems likewise.
Reply
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Jones says:
Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Dear Arthur,
What in the hell are you talking about?
Thanks,
Jones
From your clever comeback, maybe, Mr. Jones?
What? I’m not trying to insult you or anything, but I have to ask: is English your first language? The reason I ask is…if it isn’t, then I might be able to see what you’re trying to say through the nonsense it appears to be when I’m taking your word when you say you’re from Brooklyn. If this isn’t a case of broken English…then…I have no idea what you’re on.
This guy was NOT BRITISH. He was a Pakistani with a British passport.
I don’t know if the guy was nutters, personally I think that it was a case of him being an unwitting drug mule for someone else. Someone he thought of as a friend. More than likely he hadn’t a clue what was in that luggage.
I suppose that there was someone in the arrival hall of the airport waiting to see if he got off and when he didn’t went and called the dealer in Tajikistan or wherever that the guy was caught. Akmal (the mule) told the police that someone will be coming in after him and gave a name, but that person never showed up (because he was tipped off).
Akmal took the fall and was put to death. Now in the USA, they would not put you to death for that much heroin, but the DEA would put him in prison for a very long time, and frankly, I’d rather be put to death than be in a cage with strangers, killers, rapists and psychopaths, eating awful food and living in a room the size of a closet watching your bunkmate deficate everyday for the next 20 years. I’d rather die.
Senor B.W.
You write: “frankly, I’d rather be put to death than be in a cage with strangers, killers, rapists… for the next 20 years. I’d rather die.”
There is a Life after life.
I don’t know if I would have the courage to survive a 20 year sentence.
I do know that if you read the (auto)biographies of Nasser, Mandela, Zhou Enlai and more who have left their mark on world history, prison only broke them so that they could reach the next higher level of courage.
Still others, like Castro and Stalin, found the same transformational virtues in Christian boarding schools.
REPLY TO MR. JONES
“However, this still has nothing to do…with relevance of the Opium War to this topic”
See last reply
“What about the US do you worry about?”
Same as other folks: It’s overextended and dragging the rest of the world down with it. Nobody intelligent wants to see it disappear but they do hope for way less unilateral action, disdain for international law and predatory corporate behavior and trade policies.
“(How could) the length of time since the Opium War…possibly be relative to this guy’s drug smuggling apart from a…reference to his nationality and…drugs he was arrested for. To me, it’s like if a Japanese guy went nuts …in the US and killed several people, and then everyone starts claiming how it’s the return of Pearl Harbor.
You answered that yourself: what ever made you think of Pearl Harbor 70 years ago except the magic word “Japanese”? In this particular case, the magic word was “British”.
Length of time plays second fiddle to the power of the impression: the Declaration of Independence may mean more to you than your next door neighbour yet one is centuries old and (presumably) miles away while the other is handy and present.
“See last reply”
I did see the last reply…which is why I told you that it had nothing to do with the Opium War’s relevance to the UK-passport holding Pakistani carrying drugs into China in 2009 without either of the two countries being at war or having a policy of shipping drugs to China.
“You answered that yourself: what ever made you think of Pearl Harbor 70 years ago except the magic word “Japanese”? In this particular case, the magic word was “British”.”
Not actually. I explained how that would be ludicrous. I’m not, and I definitely don’t expect anyone except the old people who were alive during that time to even try to relate the two in any bit of seriousness. Only a fool would do that. Common sense is all a person needs to realize that there’s no relation between the two incidents.
Another example would be, say, any sort of “discrimination against foreigners/non-Han people” post, and then we all start bleating about the Boxer Rebellion and praising whatever generals were instrumental in stopping the Chinese from hurting our people. In fact, the Opium War and the Boxer Rebellion weren’t too terribly far apart from each other. However, how many of Boxer Rebellion comments have you seen here? I haven’t seen any. Because that shit doesn’t relate to anything here. That’s why the “remember the Opium War” is a bit stupid.
“Length of time plays second fiddle to the power of the impression: the Declaration of Independence may mean more to you than your next door neighbour yet one is centuries old and (presumably) miles away while the other is handy and present.”
Ok, again dude, I’m not getting what you’re saying here. It makes no real sense at all. I know you are saying that the Declaration of Independence is more important than my neighbor, but my neighbor is close and the Declaration is old…but what if the Declaration was in my yard and therefore closer than my neighbor? What if my “neighbor” was a grave of a Spanish explorer who died before the idea of declaring independence in the colonies was ever thought of? What in the world does the old declaration and my neighbor and their degrees of importance or whatever this analogy is supposed to mean…what does it have to do with the guy that was executed and how does it show that it connects him with the Opium War? Seriously.
Me again.
Did some math concerning the heroin.
He was caught with nine pounds of heroin. A pound is 453 grams. 453g (X) 9= 4077 grams of heroin.
Looking on the internet, an average dosage of needle heroin is .008 or 8/1000th of a gram. Using that figure one would divide the weight of the heroin smuggled divided per usage.
4077 grams/.008 dosage = 509,625 individual dosages. Over a half million. That is enough heroin to dose 20% of the population of Urumqi.
This isn’t a few joints we are talking about. The guy got caught smuggling a weapon of mass destruction.
Me again.
Did some math concerning the heroin.
He was caught with nine pounds of heroin. A pound is 453 grams. 453g (X) 9= 4077 grams of heroin.
Looking on the internet, an average dosage of needle heroin is .008 or 8/1000th of a gram. Using that figure one would divide the weight of the heroin smuggled divided per usage.
4077 grams/.008 dosage = 509,625 individual dosages. Over a half million. That is enough heroin to dose 20% of the population of Urumqi.
This isn’t a few joints we are talking about. The guy got caught smuggling a weapon of mass destruction.
@ Joe Banks. Obviously, Akmal Shaikh was duped into carrying 4Kg of heroin, which would ultimately be distributed amongst local drug dealers or drug users in (Urumqi) Xinjiang Province. According to the official media, Akmal Shaikh was duped by an international drugs gang based in Poland. However, I am still perplexed as to how this heroin would have landed in the hands of local drug dealers or drug users. I mean, do you suppose that Shaikh already had prior instructions to meet with a local drug dealer in Urumqi? Surely, the plan would be to intercept Akmal Shaikh with his briefcase at some point during his visit, in which case, there must be a local contact in Urumqi?
Last but not least, I think most people are quite familiar with the fact that drugs trafficking is quite common in major urban centres in China; especially with regards to Blacks selling dope to Western expatriates in nightclubs, street corners, and other seedy places. However, the example of Akmal Shaikh is different to common drugs trafficking, because the amount he carried was enough to kill 2,800 people – hence, the death penalty in this case. That’s not to say that common drug dealers are above the law, but the amount of drugs trafficking in their case is probably a lot less than 40Kg. I would imagine that anybody who’s caught dealing illicit drugs less than 40Kg is still liable to criminal prosecution, but in their case the penalty would be imprisonment and/or a fine as opposed to the death penalty.
It would be interesting to get other people’s opinion about this.
If the British government had applied pressure earlier, this guy would be back home in a mental hospital by now. But the pressure was applied too late, so it became a matter of face for the Chinese government not to give him a mental health evaluation.
Only foreigners have a chance of getting justice from the courts in China. And only if their government handles the situation correctly.
The bloke was mentally ill. The Chinese murdered him without giving him the examination he was supposed to have under their law. About right for an uncivilised country such as China. I wonder if any country with the death penalty can really call themselves civilised.
RonF, He was indeed crazy, or at least stupid, to cross national borders with 4 kg. of heroin and/or accepting to carry luggage across said borders without inspecting the contents. The other explanation, of course, is greed. I don’t know the guy; perhaps neither do you: we can only speculate.
As said earlier, before the first court of instance, his only plea was that he didn’t know what he was carrying. The insanity plea was first injected at appellate level, where it is inadmissible because the job of an appeals court is to confirm the defendant got due process. It did.
The death penalty kicks in here at 50 grams.
He had 4,000 grams.
Ignorance of the law does not pass for an excuse in most countries, including yours.
Arthur,
Are you saying the trafficking of narcotic drugs is also a capital crime in the US? You seemed to suggest the threshold to receive the death penalty is 50 grams or more of illicit drugs in the US. Which country are you referring to in respect of the 50 grams limit: China or USA?
Hugo,
Actually, aliens here are often at a disadvantage in legal disputes but yes, officers go out of their way to be nice because they feel we are guests and they have a duty to represent China as an hospitable country.
On justice, um, it’s an imperfect system anywhere. In a market economy, judges, officers and lawyers do what they can. Decades ago, money didn’t talk much above the level of a hard-to-negotiate whisper; now it’s a tedious imperious loudmouth, just like in my hometown Brooklyn.
Arthur,
Have you ever been arrested? Involved in a police incident? If so please elaborate and tell me how you know Chinese police are so fucking hospitable to foreigners????
It is not drug dealer that should have mental disease test. It is supporters of drug dealers who need mental disease test for support criminal.
Why would china have to give a cheese-burger fuck if he’s british,indian or eskimo..You move weight,get caught,get murdered in a fashionable style of execution.
Some dude got caught for moving Kg’s of marijuana through beijing airport,last year or so..muthfacka faced the fuckin death sentence. It wasnt that hard
So what makes this claimed-to-be-phsycho drugmule different,Its not about race,people..Its the law of the land
Abide by it,you won’t feel the fury of them chinese dragons lol
You make Lin Zexu out to be a hero, when he actually was one of the triggers that caused China to be so weak over the past 150 years. Wasn’t he also banished shortly afterwards?
The majority of the British people support this decision. They laugh at the fact that their Prime Minister went at length to beg another country to free a criminal. What Gordon Brown did disgraced the UK and people have had enough of his rubbish
the majority of the UK ‘dont ‘ support the decision actually. so we have no idea where you got that info from mr chinese. “blatantly obvious” the man was clinically nuts, (1) the man was 53 and thought he could goto china and be a popstar (2)carrying 4000grams of heroin into china for some gang lol (3)the prime minister only asked for a ’simple’ medical assessement, the chinks could have waited 1 or 2 weeks for that, but like homosexuals, the disabled, the chinese will execute anyone who defy them, and everyone knows that his execution was already set, and the chinks wont budge ‘for fear of loss of face’ or some shit. The man only has himself to blame, but this just shows the rest of the world ‘yet again’ how the chinese dont have a fricking clue about mental illness, because they just believe in herbs and shit. He should said he was gay, coz your government think that homosexual is mental illness haha. the yanks dropped the atom bomb on the wrong dam country, should have wiped out china, dirty rats
I don’t know where you live Mao, or if you are Chinese,British or Pakistani for that matter, but in this case it does matter, perhaps you will say, then we can half guess the reason for your awful post?
Where I live in the South West of England 99% are adament that Akman got his due reward. We in England are sick of people who come to us under various pretext and only claim to be British when they need welfare or international help. Akman ran a small business in London, he should have stuck to it where he was safe.
I also think your email is most offensive to any nationality, whatever their point of view. You should put your argument without lowering to ‘youtube speak.’ then people may listen!
Like I said earlier, the lad argued before the court of first instance he was only carrying a bag of unknown contents for a friend: judges hear that sob story often. The appeal is a bad time to invent the insanity plea. It is possible, but if the appeals court finds no grounds to substantiate any insanity, it can deny the motion.
Moreover, since over a year or so ago in China, every death sentence automatically goes up before the Supreme Court for confirmation.
Will somebody please tell me some day as soon as that guarantee is extended to folks on death row in the USA.
As for homosexuality, there was a gay pride thingie in Shanghai not long ago. Not my thing at all, but live & let live. Theoretically at least, they’re an endangered species, so let’s be nice to them.
Too bad, “mao” that you have such weird ideas about China: I’ve lived here for seven years now and, um, even if I were a rabid soul-saving Jehovah’s Witness or Seventh Day Adventist, I’d still think you were in an alternate dimension of spacetime.
My only advice to you is to NEVER travel or, if you are still in your early teens, to keep BOTH hands on the keyboard at all times lest you get overexcited by distractions of the sort that prevail at that age.
I lived in China for 2 years and I have to say you guys need a spliff or somthing your all fucked in the head and your government sucks ass. As for this guy who got executed,as an Englishman I think it was right he was executed. Your country, your rules. Your ideas that the English don’t agree with this are wrong, but what can you expect from people who still shit in A HOLE IN THE FLOOR!
And the only crazy thing is why would u try to sell smeck to the chinese in urumqi? They cant afford it man, of all the places to sell smack? to a bunch of fucking sand jockeys that can only pay in camel turd.
Funny, Lin Zexu’s tirade against opium trafficking reminded me of Andrew Jackson’s “den of vipers” tirade against banksters.
I doubt it would be very hard to show a nexus between the two either. Nor is it very likely the plutocrats have given up the trade.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7009998324250484369#
http://www.amazon.com/Big-White-Lie-Cocaine-Epidemic/dp/156025064X
…
The links to that crime trail are everywhere…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszATUJ4IRE
http://www.madcowprod.com/04182006.html
…but that’s enough for this forum…
I was right. I found a nexus in about 5 minutes of research.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/14/drug-money-saved-banks-la_n_391337.html
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3610stop_brit_assault_usa.html
Of course there is also former Assistant Secretary of HUD/whistleblower Catherine Austin Fitts, who makes points about the nexus in just about all her talks…
I am bipolar. I know it is wrong to deal in drugs. I know what would happen if I tried to do that. I feel sad for the man’s family but I do not believe his mental problems excused his behaviour. If you visit another country you agree to respect their laws.
The Chinese race does not, I repeat, does not value life in any manner whatsoever.
I feel very bad for Akmal. As someone who suffers depression, I believe that he should have been given a chance. It is not right to execute someone like that. There are much worse people that deserve execution.
Yeah I agree. It should be for the kind of people who carry 4kg of heroine and then drop the “Oh I’m insane, that’s why I’m in this situation” statement. Oh wait…………………
Lol. So u think drug is not available in China? How much u need?
why would a brown person go to china anyway? white ppl only really go there to get laid.
“WHAT IS LZ TALKING ABOUT? COMPARING OUR GLORIOUS MODERN HARMONIOUS SOCIETY WITH THE CORRUPT QING DYNASTY!? YOU SCHEMING BASTARD!”
Wait a minute: What is the Chinese equivalent of all caps, given that the characters don’t have majuscule and miniscule forms. Or was that comment originally in English.
MOP, you produced an online article full of lies, but you are Chinese so this is expected. FIRST= 170 years ago Lin Zexu clearly saw the harm that opium was doing to Guangzhou, this is a total fabrication, the person you mentioned and other corrupt Chinese were earning a fortune from the opium trade but kept demanding more. When refused their greed got the better of them and they became a MOB of angry pencils. The opium trade in China was a result of local demand. Britain and the world at that time did not understand the true nature of Opium, when Britain wanted to trade with pencils in China, the constant demand they met was for “OPIUM” or are you suggesting traders brought opium to China and held people down forced them to ingest it and buy it? What an idiot you really are. As usual the Chinese choose to distort and lie about history e.g the worlds version of history is fake and only China tells the truth, have you any idea how much the educated world laughs at and tolerates these constant lies?
LASTLY. The person executed whas not representing the British government when he tried to smuggle opium, why do you dishonest cowards try to suggest that?. British trade in China now has created countless thousand of jobs for unemployed Chinese that would usually be riding around on bikes on dusty unmanaged roads. The smuggler was not truly British he was a “Pakistanie” that had obtained a British passport. Do you honestly think if China executed a real British citizen that Britain would not right now be seriously punishing your corrupt government? I get so disappointed when I read articles online by pencils that choose the Chinese standard path of telling lies. If you want to join the global family you need to all start learning to tell the truth., or you will be rejected. Now, all of you try and continue on your path of reform or investment and help at civilising you will be withdrawn within the next few years.
Mike: Nice one! but what’s the bet your comment may be removed?