“Green Dam Youth Escort” (绿坝·花季护航) is a new software program that China’s government requires to be installed on all new computers sold after 2009 July 1. This program allows parents, people, and the government block internet content on each computer. Of course, they say it is to protect children, but very few netizens believe this.
If you are not familiar with this news yet, you can find a lot of English information from these websites:
- Wall Street Journal: China Squeezes PC Makers
- China Journal: China’s New Required PC Filtering Software – The Official Notice
- Shanghaiist: The Great Firewall in the Real World: The Green Dam Youth Escort
- Global Voices Online: China: A leaking dam?
- EastSouthWestNorth: User Reviews of Green Dam Software
- Danwei: Filtering software: parents worried about their children
- Shanghaiist: Chinese gov’t: Green Dam and Youth Escort are your friends
- Danwei: Is the Green Dam filter experimenting on computer users?
- China Journal: “Green Dam” Creator Seeks To Reassure That He’s Not Out To Censor China’s Web
The official website for Green Dam Youth Escort is www.lssw365.net.
A menu screen in Green Dam Youth Escort:
Here are some netizen comments:
Comments from Tianya:
angel_satan:
Developing and maintaining this kind of no-technology software can be done by 2-3 software programmers within 3 months time, yet this will cost 40 million every year!
timhe:
Have you “Green Dam” today?
rosebys:
Because ZF is a little afraid, from push-ups…to 70 km/h…they want to control the internet, and pat every netizen’s head while they are at it.
俊俊的海:
Shameless action, using taxpayers’ money to manipulate this society…
妹川酷紫:
Purchased for over 40 million to purchase but with one year free. Simply unbelievable, a decision with such wide-reaching implications made just by tapping one’s head [without serious thought]. This is the most pointless of the “pointless”. I suggest that the Central Commission For Discipline Inspection inspect the software company for trade/transaction problems [corruption].
They say this is for children, but those buying computers are not all children, right? Even adults are forced to install this “highway robber”? Isn’t this stripping other people of their right to choose, treating all computer purchasers in the country like children? This is ridiculous, things that cannot advance with the times are all done by these kind of people. Thought is something that should not be monopolized.
悠游魂:
I bet it is the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (MIIT) minister’s son’s software company, but blatantly embezzling taxpayers’ money like this is indeed too ridiculous.
gracemary:
Are they really unable to imagine the reaction this will cause when it comes out…or are they that crazy about money [greedy]?
杨过同学:
Ministry of Health Notice: All new computers are required to wear condoms.
Ministry of Health Notice: All new computers are required to wear condoms.
Ministry of Health Notice: All new computers are required to wear condoms.
hwz5200:
These should have been released during April Fool’s Day.
This is not the way to support domestic software. These bastards are banging their heads with bricks again.
Without government support, I bet within a few years these two companies, Green Dam company and Escort company, will collapse.
chen890123:
Computers that cannot go on pornographic websites, who would buy them?
cn1831:
Ridiculous to the point that even the “wu mao dang” does not dare make an appearance?
I am so not used to not seeing the “wu mao dang”.
麦德基:
Even the “wu mao dang” have physiological needs sometimes, and need to visit pornographic websites and watch some pornographic videos and such.
耗子也需要爱:
Fuck the entire MIIT,
that bunch of SB,
all piss drinkers.If they have the money, why not go help the poor?
Even this kind of trash software can be sold for that much!
Comments from Mop:
鱼在水中:
Since it is “youth escort” [child protection software], it should be installed on children’s computers. But since it must be installed on all computers, then “youth” is just an excuse.
eoxu006:
Fuck TM B, if you have the ability [daring/guts/will], try welding this software into the motherboard BIOS! If you go this far, then I will accept it!
三米:
Actually, without using this kind of “software” our internet environment is already clean enough~
MD, trying to search a foreign thing but stubbornly cannot search it…yet it is not available within the country…so isn’t this simply fear of us hearing or seeing certain things…?Someone above said it right, might as well just take taxpayers’ money and give it to someone to build a jail!
星星好多:
As long as parents properly guide children, help raise children’s internet usage consciousness, so they self-regulate their consumption of bad information, then this would be starting from the root. This [software] is not a long-term solution, and honestly this software has absolutely no use, although it may work for those who do not know how to use computers.
昊宇乐吧:
Honestly, the intent of the software is good and cannot be criticized, but the country using several tens of millions to install it, isn’t that a little ridiculous? Is taxpayer money to be split by a few companies and individuals like this? This truly is unacceptable…pissed off.
蓝色畅想real:
Those who are saying this is good are probably parents already, so I want to say to you guys: Can you guys first learn how to use the computer, okay? We are all taxpayers. Using our money to buy this piece of trash (there are free ones that are much better than this), and forcing all computers to be installed with it, if this isn’t a monopoly or dark secret then what is it? When you buy a computer for your child, do you not use it yourself? Even if you exit the program after using it, the back end can still automatically monitor the system operation, infringing upon the people’s privacy. If you want to restrict your child, there should be methods better than this, aren’t there? Moreover, this kind of thing is obviously just a tool for making money [in an improper way], only curing the symptoms and not the disease.
鹰之影:
Piece of trash, have you guys considered how children really think? Why they love playing video games so much? Why they are curious about certain things? Have you never been like this before? These kind of restrictions will only increase children’s rebelliousness!!!
Francis_Li:
This software does not have one bit of technological content at all…China should learn from Holland, allowing children to see everything bad, and once they get tired of it, they will stop looking at them on their own.
唐南山:
This matter infringes upon the freedom of speech, is a crime against the people, and shows contempt for the Chinese people’s freedom. Resolutely oppose!
濯足万米流:
You guys would not be so innocent/naive as to believe this software’s true purpose is to protect children, right?
It is very obvious that it is for monitoring and controlling all Chinese people.
Here is a Mop photoshop:
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Do they have this software in English?
That crap is built on a weird font library. All text elements broke into gibberish symbols on any version of English Windows (was so on my English Win7).
Only “strings” on the main menu is readable, but they are drawn on the interface as pictures…
Damn piece of shit, they can’t even do the UI right. Absolutely no tech-content.
Made in China… what do you expect?
It’s probably non-unicode. Easily fixed by setting the language dealing with non-unicode programs to Chinese in the language settings. This will work for ANY English or other language windows versions.
Don’t worry too much, someone will make a crack for this software.
This crap defies verbal description, it is as if the national websites maintenance move has not aroused enough resentment against the censor, and now this crap.
And to be honest, this crap can’t do much technically, major antivirus or antispyware programs identify it as malicious software, and Comodo won’t even let it install, but psychologically it exerts massive fear amongst the public that the gov is constantly trying to monitor you.
Fuck this crap all day long.
And will the gov pressure antivirus software developers into “cooperation mode”??? will 360-Safe be instructed not to interfere?? Show is coming, grab your popcorn.
This is why China will never be a ‘great’ country. Fuck China.
It’s as if the GFC is not enough…
It’s very interesting to note that software companies in the West have been scratching their head for decades to figure out how to block pornography or other inappropriate content effectively. And China could develop that software in a few months and ready to roll it out nationwide.
2 things to watch out for:
1) If the government could force the PC manufacturers to force install it in the motherboard flash ROM (like a few netizen commented), then we could only see the increase of illegal import of motherboard from Hong Kong or Taiwan market.
2) Once you have installed the program, could someone try to monitor the packets the software receives and sends out? And the destination? Because i feel like it’s a very lame excuse that the government actually want to know what are you doing on the internet. For example, putting up hate comments, or any “anti-revolutionary” actions. By that time, you wonder why suddenly the police shows up at your doorstep.
Do you seriously think that this is technological breakthrough? That’s ridiculous. This is not new technology. It’s been around for years. Now it just uses the MITT’s army of people to control your thoughts.
still don’t see much of a difference between the great firewall of china and this program.
i beg to ask how many trojans does the chinese government already have installed on our computers? at least they’re doing it publicly. kudos to the prc IMO.
I suppose that’s why they don’t have any anti-virus software.
But this will block proxy use as well, and can be constantly updated. Also supposed to be in the system back-up section, so you can’t get rid of it.
it’s maybe a good way to switch to Mac… haha
Switch to Linux yeah …
Everyday I thank my lucky stars I wasn’t born in this country. The Chinese might be angry about a century of humiliation but its your own government holding you back now.
Simple fix when purchasing new computer…. format C:\
I’m amazed by the amount of effort the government puts forth in attempting to stop pornography (not to suggest that mandating the installation of this software does not have other, yet more unsavory purposes), especially considering how disinterested they are in stopping prostitution (creating laws that no one will ever enforce does not constitute interest).
But it does pave the way for the year of Linux on the desktop.
Exactly! They should start by cleaning up their own behavior.
This crap doesn’t surprise me at all. China is a sinking ship.
Hopefully, one day, the spineless jellyfish will wake up and rebel against this piece of shit thing that they call “government”.
Chinese people tend to think that foreigners hate China, when if fact it’s their social and political system that we deeply hate and fear. We do not believe in Chinese democracy with Chinese characteristic, we do not believe in the “Harmonious” Society project, we do not believe in the win win approach.
All of it, just a bunch of childish lies that the Chinese people gobble blindly on a daily basis. Only making us laugh and shake our head in disbelief.
The more China will “rise” the more the fear will increase in the west. From “friend” to foe.
Nobody except some BS third world countries run by dictators that sucks up on Chinese money wants to see China spreading its sphere of influence in the world.
Nobody.
So, somehow, it’s a good thing that the government increases the pressure on its citizen. It’s precipitating these changes, indirectly. Chinese People are finally waking up to the fact that they live in a Golden Cage.
These changes can only come from the Chinese people. And one day it will happen. We will see it in our lifetime.
I beg to differ, what makes you think all Chinese like the government?? Chinese netizens are constantly making fun of the propaganda CCP trots out, and no one cares about harmonious society and stuff, go ask any Chinese on the street if he is interested in craps like this and you will get a solid NO. Also, Anonymous nationalist trolls freaking out =/= all Chinese, America too has ultra-right repooblicans who support the nazi bush-cheney band yes??
You are pretty delusional might I say, as a veteran forum troll I can say that people unsatisfied with the government outnumber their counterpart by a large margin (or at least on the web), you just need to do more investigation instead of concluding from one or two cases.
(or at least on the web) = 1/3 of the population speaking for 1.3 billion people?
Do you really think the government gives a shit about your pampered ass, living in an ivory tower?
You are just part of the controllable herd. What they worry about is, the 2/3 living in the backyard of prosperity.
Testing one two, anybody here?
bad idea…looks like nobody did spellcheck again:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8094026.stm
Soon, everyone need to be careful what you say about the gov in this forum…BIG BROTHER is watching you..
First, lame excuse for using this to protect the children..the ultimate aim of this software is to silent the netizen and human flesh search.. it is getting out of hand and exposing a lot of government corrupt practices and officials.. can’t imagine spent taxpayer 40 millions just to protect themselves
There are actions being taken against the decision, I don’t imagine it will actually be implemented anytime soon, if ever.
Called it. :D
http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/17/green_dam_more_than_just_a_net_nann.php
LOL… I was right. The chinese gov is indeed trying to silent the netizen..damn what will they think of next..here are some of the banned words from Green Dam.
1. Chinese Government – kabooomm your PC will explode
2. Corrupt – alarm sound.. next thing a knock on your door
3. Google – alarm again.. this time, your entire family info will be sent to the chinese authority
“I can say that people unsatisfied with the government outnumber their counterpart by a large margin”
Then they should display a little intestinal fortitude and begin demanding their constitutional rights.
and have their asses handed to the gov.
Do you know what happened on June 4, 1989?
A: The Chinese have lost their humanity and became selfish automatons powered by greed?
u r a real piece of work, or piece of shit I should say. What the fuck do u mean the Chinese have lost their humanity? Dehumanizing an entire race of people leads to racism, hate crimes and genocidal wars. Get the fuck out of China if u hate Chinese so much. What the fuck is up with all these Chinese hating foreigners in China? Yes, China has many problems but look where it came from; China has already made great strides. If u people really want to see democracy and human rights flourish in China, u wouldn’t be spewing these hate speech and caricature an entire race of people. No Chinese or anyone for that matter in his/her right mind would say such things about westerners. But there seems to be a huge number of westerners who think they are entitled to openly attack, insult, and dehumanize the Chinese while maintaining their moral high ground of being champions of democracy, human rights. If u really care, speak from a place of compassion and understanding, not racial hatred.
heh, you’ve been trolled. But in all seriousness get your head out of your ass. There is no “china” or “chinese” hate conspiracy except in your own self-righteous asshat.
So I can spew any racist hateful nonsense and just excuse it away by saying it is in the name of good fun or trolling? Can I say X people are ignorant arrogant vile low lifes as long as I say it in a tongue in cheek way? Does that make sense to you? There are some types of speech that are unacceptable no matter what and you know it.
I didn’t say shit about conspiracy so i donno what u r talking about u assclown.
I see lots of hate speech targeted at Chinese on this forum and many other expat oriented forums. It seems to be a favorite pastime among expats. That’s a fact. I can totally understand gripes about the CCP but I cannot understand or accept racist hate speech.
Are you retarded?
Talk about completely missing the point…
what’s your point dipshit.
chill out bud, getting you mad is exactly what he wants.
just ignore him.
I try to ignore these assclowns but they pop up everywhere. In my gym, at clubs, at work, online. Bottomline is, I just don’t think it’s funny or witty. It’s just not acceptable. They should apply thier own standards on themselves.
Props for using assclown in a sentence.
Q: Do you know what happened on June 4, 1989?
A: The Chinese have lost their humanity and became selfish automatons powered by greed?
It seems clear that you have some trouble following the thread of comments. So I’ve decided to follow your advice and speak from a place of compassion and understanding. Here’s a step-by-step guide about my previous comment, just for you:
Step one – Read the following text:
Excerpt from Free Speech in the founding and in modern liberalism
The old ideal is of “a closed world, where life is predetermined and animal-like”. The Fanny Hill view is “an open encounter of the total person in the world. Growth and spontaneity and expression are the goals.” It means people are free “to choose for themselves.” The older view offers “warm blankets and cocoons for those who want to lose their humanity”.
Far from injuring society, obscenity and pornography are, according to this version of liberalism, important vehicles for liberating society from its puritanical constricted past.”
Step two: Stop wondering why you still don’t get it and jump to step three.
Step three – Go fuck yourself.
Step four – Go back to step one.
Bottom line is you are an aggressive, overreacting, neurotic and emotionally unstable imbecile.
I get stuck into China too.
From my perspective; it’s not because I think I am better than the Chinese, it’s because I think any system where people are not encouraged to think freely and critically is worthy of condemnation.
I think foreigners get frustrated that the Chinese don’t want to fight against it too. Not only that; but vehemently and angrily defend it. That’s why this hope eventually falls into therapeutic yet destructive mockery.
Did it ever occur to you that I might be Chinese?
Uh oh, cognitive dissonance strikes again in your pea brain!
Can you handle it? Bozo Jingo?
Chill out, dude..if you’ve been in the forum long enough, you will know there are a few individuals that are always cynical about every comments people made here.. we term these folks as “LOSERS”.. see this is the only way they feel good and MAN about themselves by being an A-holes in the cover of a forum..
Forgiveness is divine
Hey psycho, it’s real big of you to be the peace maker and call me a loser. The Grudge has a condescending attitude towards the Chinese in his posts. That’s not cool and you seem to condone his attitude by backing him up. Well there is a term for cunts like you, HYPOCRITE.
You are a foreigner and consider yourself as such. You gave away your identity in one of your posts you lying sack of shit.
Well I remember you can buy alcohol at 5 in china. ROFL. If that kid was rich he can also call prostitute for 200rmb. Viva la china!
200 RMB! That’s high class.
Let them eat cake!
I have always been the one saying that at the very least having more of an authoritarian government made things move faster. For better or worse. This allows China to institute policies that are needed but maybe not popular with the masses (odd and even cars during the Olympics, imagine the US government trying to do that in New York). That being said I think this kind of complete lack of thought and incredible waste of money for something that will most likely only be used on school computers or cracked in a week is asinine to the extreme. This really shows the other side of authoritarian rule. I want to see a good old fashioned flesh hunt for the guy who approved/masterminded this. 100 bucks says he downloads AV porn like the rest of us.
At the least he visits his college-aged mistress, barber shop, Sauna, or KTV for special services.
What a blessing it would be for China if the nasty side of authoritarian governments was merely good intentions gone awry.
I am willing to bet a dollar there is no Mac version.
LOL, you all think some rural peasant living on a few hundred yuan every month is going to give a fuck all about something that only affects the Chinese middle-class (who’ll probably find a way to crack it within a few weeks after its release)? This shit is not going to bring down the CCP, folks. Nothing will so long as the peasants, who make up 2/3rds of China, live slightly better every year than the previous year.
@rage
i know what you mean, but don’t let it out on the grudge. he’s a retard. i mean, c’mon, he asks then answers questions to himself. i wonder if he does that in F2F conversation….
@rick
could you post some sources please? that would be dope diggity
“Jordan says:
Friday, June 12, 2009 at 12:32 am
Do you know what happened on June 4, 1989?”
I answered the question asked by Jordan.
Who’s the retard Sky? Are you suffering from stupidity induced attention deficit disorder like Rage?
you answered Jordan’s question by saying “the Chinese have lost their humanity and became selfish automatons powered by greed.” I followed that exchange and what you’ve said is offensive, racist and off limits. Your spineless jellyfish remark isn’t appreciated either. It always amuses me to no end how foreigners think they are so much more enlightened and better than asians and open their big fat mouth and pass random condescending judgments on asians. Many foreigners live in a neo-colonial fantasy land. You need an attitude adjustment.
Dear Rage,
I have absolutely no intent to be condescending toward the “Chinese”, as you say. For some obscure reasons, you seem to be willing to persist to read more than there is into my comments.
This all started when YOU TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD my comment and quickly jumped to conclusion, calling me names (dipshit, cunt, or whatever insult your creative Cro-Magnon brain could come up with) and masterfully played the victimhood card, out of the blue.
I’m sorry to say, but you are the one that sounds like an uneducated white trash complaining about the “assclowns” coming to his country, “popping” at the gym, etc (you could have added : stealing jobs and women to complete the stereotype).
Psycho is not condoning my words, he actually understood them, as opposed to you, clearly.
And still, you persist… One comment after the other, you sound like a broken record. How about next time you ask me politely to precise my thoughts, without insulting me at the same time? Then you might expect a more polite and less incisive answer.
But the good news is, magnanimous as I am, I’m willing to accept your apologies.
The Grudge
XX
Rage…i am not condoning anybody words or comments here.. the point is, this is a forum.. everyone is entitled to give their own opinions be it cynical,good or bad comments.
Point here is
1. If you want to put your point across to others, try convincing them, and not by calling people stupid, assholes, clown etc… unless you are George Bush
2. Why do you think your opinion or points are always right and the rest of the world are Wrong…please, you are definitely not George Bush..
3. If you think Chinese are treated unfairly (which I 100% agreed), do something about it and not bitch around in the forum.
We are living in a mysterious country,there are so many thing we cannot understand.
Q: Do you know what happened on June 4, 1989?
A: The Chinese have lost their humanity and became selfish automatons powered by greed?
It seems clear that you have some trouble following the thread of comments.
unfortunately, due to the nature of the overall retardness of this thread, i was incorrect in my statement of you asking and answering questions yourself.
however, for flame’s sake, i still stand by my statement that you’re a retard.
fair enough ? :)
apparently Green dam just another pirated software from the US. http://in.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idINIndia-40309820090613
Just wait until they successfully copy sony rootkit and other DRM software and install it on every computer Wa hahahaha
“Our China”‘, what you’ve described is how many foreigners feel but let me give you a different perspective. Remember those fearless students on June 4, 1989? Do you have the guts to stop tanks with nothing but your convinction? thousands died and the memory of the tragic event has been largely wiped out of the consciousness of most Chinese. CCP wields an iron fist and is all about propaganda. Many Chinese are discontent with CCP but CCP is using economic development to keep people occupied with making a better life and to pacify political discontent. Many Chinese feel they are willing to take what they can get right now, economic development, and with time and a growing middle class, they will have their democracy and all that jazz. Even premier Wen said on CNN that China will go the democracy route. Granted, the current power structure within CCP probably wouldn’t want to let go without a fight, at least it’s an encouraging sign. At any rate, I think it is a sensable thing to go for economic development first, raise the standard of living and then tackle the political problem.
CCP has many faults and if you want to point that out, go ahead. But to give u a little perspective, let me ask u this: what kind of reaction would you expect from Americans if a foreigner goes and lives in America and complains all day long about the injustices, stupidity and depravity of American government and American society? Not a friendly welcome I would imagine. Why is it that so many westerners feel they have the right to speak with impunity and a lack of cultural sensitivity or political correctness with it comes to Asia? U can give me ur reason but may I suggest the mental disorder of anachronistic colonial superiority as a cause?
And to your point about foreigners being frustrated and turning their criticisms into destructive mockery, often attacking the chinese people themselves might i add, you are right these type of speech is destructive and condescending. Just how do u people expect us Chinese to take the insults? It may be theraputic to you, venting ur anger at the beknighted backwards chinese for not receiving ur enlightened views (what r ur views exactly other than criticisms about how China isn’t like the west?) as the gospel truth and failing to recognize ur wisdom, but not to the Chinese. In fact, the double standards, the hypocricy, the arrogance and idiocy are enraging.
I hope that has been an education to y’all n cut that holier than thou bullshit.
You are an angry guy. Perhaps you need special massage.
Don’t worry about China. In 30 years the current generation will take over. Things will get a lot better.
massage is for whimps.
Here hoping for a better, democratic China.
1. The foreign superiority argument
It’s like Susan Boyle and Quasimodo. Yeah, neither are handsome… but Susan Boyle is a hell of a lot better looking when compared with Quasi.
And also, China is currently copying the very countries that we are from. If Quasimodo starts trying to dress up like Susan and move away from the whole ‘hunchback’ look, you’re damn right she’s going to feel somewhat superior. That’s a natural reaction.
2. The ‘give us time’ argument
I understand your point about conextualising. I understand this type of Faustian deal the Chinese have made with the government ‘we will 忍受 your methods as long as you promise to continue growing our middle class’. And it is true that this government has bought 20 million people out of poverty.
But this is a deal that the Chinese have made, not foreign people. Just because the Chinese are willing to turn a blind eye, it does not mean that I will (and I guess, others).
3. The ‘why do you always criticise’ argument
Firstly, countries always criticise each other. The only difference is that China is so outrageously different to the rest of the world that it polarises itself, creating a dichotomy with ‘foreigners’. Also, the mix of the face culture combined with a hyper-nationalist education system means that Chinese people do not react objectively to criticism.
I have a lot of foreign friends that I made at university in my own country. They do indeed spend a large amount of time criticizing my country and using me as a flag to throw darts at. When they are valid, I laugh and agree, when not I tell them that I don’t agree and why.
In my experience Chinese people react to criticism with indignance and attack. They use irreverent and bellicose language to talk about foreign countries and try to accuse us of having equal problems (refer to Susan/Quasimodo point).
When Bush was president, most Americans admitted that he was a bit of an idiot when I mentioned it (I’m not American).. but can you imagine the reaction if I said to a Chinese person that Hu is a bit of an idiot or some other criticism leveled at the government？
There are ways that China can be defended as, of course, their are valid counter-criticisms. However, these are not ones made by the Chinese, who are usually too brainwashed by their education system to argue rationally and intellectually about the subject matter.
Summary:
For whatever reasons there appears to foreign eyes to be a lack of humanity that is specific to this country. The legacy of a dark era, perhaps. The future is much brighter and I am sure that China will be much better in 30 years or so. For now though, it is infuriating to foreigners who are faced with a very potent mix of mainstream hyper-nationalism and relative backward (although changing everyday) behaviour.
I think that the best way to counteract these attitudes is by intellectual engagement. Point out the inconsistencies. But the worst thing, the absolute worst thing a Chinese person can do, is start shouting obscenities and making nationalistic rants.
What nationalistic rants? I don’t give a rats ass about CCP, pardon my French, and I don’t have secret hopes of Chinese world domination.
All I want is for u foreigners to see the Chinese as flesh and blood human beings just like yourselves and adress to them or about them with equal courtesy and respect, like you would to anyone else.
Your prejudice and lack of self awareness are typical. Think about your statements and investigate your assumptions.
To be honest.. the ‘nationalistic rants’ bit wasn’t aimed at you.
I feel like you didn’t actually read my message. Just a ‘yeah, yeah, yeah’ reaction.
I was trying to explain to you why it happens and why it won’t stop. You’re not going to win over anybody with sloppy unconvincing comments like that.
As long as mainland Chinese people are suffering from the legacy of brainwashing, and a continuing system of governmental control on free thought, it will attract the scorn of foreigners. Simple as.
wow, u guys all talk alike! Chinese are brainwashed and are incapble of free thinking…Chinese have no humanity and are selfish greed driven automatons…Chinese deserve scorn from foreigners as long as CCP is in power…foreigners’ superiority complex is natural n justified b/c Chinese are “copying” foreigners; u set the western model up as the ideal and criticize China for not measuring up on the one hand and then assume a condescending stance when China does try to learn from the west.
If you don’t see anything wrong with these ideas, you are hopeless and you don’t take western ideals seriously.
Rage… most of the things in that comment are gross distortions of my own words or in some cases, not my own words at all.
Instead of providing a proper intellectual response and addressing the issues I have raised you are twisting words to fit with what appears to be a hissy fit about China being criticised by foreigners.
Like I have told you, there is room for a good discussion here, in which you reveal foreign arrogance and the forms of brainwashing that we are also subject to. But that’s not what you’re doing. You’re just in a little huff on the internet and endorsing many of the negative stereotypes that foreign people have of the Chinese (I am guessing you are Chinese yourself).
I took you up on your point in order to challenge my own opinions. I am afraid though Rage, this discussion has had entirely the opposite effect.
“CCP has many faults and if you want to point that out, go ahead. But to give u a little perspective, let me ask u this: what kind of reaction would you expect from Americans if a foreigner goes and lives in America and complains all day long about the injustices, stupidity and depravity of American government and American society? Not a friendly welcome I would imagine.”
Why not? Especially if they have facts or personal experience to back it up (people living in the Canadian or Mexican border area usually do). Don’t push your assumptions on everyone else.
(and for the record, I’m Chinese too- I’ve never found myself quite as pissy about such a thing as you have. I mean, really, “anachronistic colonial superiority”?)
Ya really. Anachronistic colonial superiority complex. Think about what that means, go out and observe. I’ve met many nice reasonable foreigners in China/HK/TW and I’ve met lots more bonifide jerks. Usually, it’s the older foreigners who have legitimate business here that are more reasonable and respectful. Usually, it’s the 20 year olds who are here for their great asian adventure that are rude and disrespectful. I think it’s because foreigners who have achieved something in their lives don’t need to use their special status as foreigners to feel good about themselves.
Even “Our China” said so himself: it’s only natural for foreigners to feel superior because China is copying the west playing catch up.
Maybe it’s because you are a nice boy and don’t go out much. Maybe you are a white washed ABC and all your foreigner friends don’t think of you as a regular Chinese person. I don’t know. Go out, pay attention and observe.
As for my hypothetical, allow me to make a distinction. Criticizing the government is one thing and crticizing a race of people is another. We can be reasonable about policy issues, political philosophy and whatnot and get a spirited debate going. That’s fine. What I object to is how many foreigners mix their political speech with racial hate speech. What about the western ideals of liberalism and equality? If foreigners can’t even see the Chinese as flesh and blood human beings and address to them or about them with a modicum of courtesy and respect, what’s a reasonable self respecting Chinese person to think?
Ah, I think I know what’s going on now. Such an antagonistic attitude is naturally going to get people on the defensive, then you take that defensiveness to be the “anachronistic colonial superiority” you speak of. Even with me- to straight-up call me “white-washed” and to tell me to “go out, pay attention, and observe”? I’ve been doing that all my life and haven’t found the attitude you speak of, not quite as bad as you make it out to be. Complaints, sure, but never insults as you have.
People are complaining about other people complaining again. Maybe you are all right . There are good foreigners and bad foreigners. There are good Chinese and bad Chinese. Maybe you only meet different people.
Our China is also Asis. He is just using a different name.
My comments were reactions to what I perceive to be racist comments posted.
Never thought the phrase white-washed is denigrating but okay, if u don’t like the phrase I can take it back. How about maybe you have been assimilated into N. American culture and speak/read/think in mostly English and hang out with mostly white/foreigner/non-Chinese friends? Would that be an accurate description? Do your white friends think of you as a regular Chinese person or one of them? I’m not trying to antagonize you on this because I have some ABC friends who are like that.
Like Fauna said, maybe u r lucky n met only nice foreigners. Or maybe u’ve seen some stuff but u don’t think they are that big of a deal.
In any case, I am reacting out of my personal experiences with some foreigners of questionable character and to the offensive racist comments on this forum and others.
Again, I will repeat my points:
1. Foreigners shouldn’t confuse their political speech with racist hate speech. There is a line that they shouldn’t cross.
2. Foreigners’ general superior attitude is unappreciated by the Chinese, except maybe you jamar. I’ll let you speak for urself.
In short, I cannot accept anything short of equal courtesy and respect from foreigners and I do not tolerate racist speech. Is my standard too high for you?
OK, I’ll explain myself. What I see in the “white-washed” comment is the implication that I assimilate into N.American culture in order to “fit in” with foreign people. I don’t have many “white” friends, mostly acquaintances, and as such, I don’t really fit into what anyone would think of as “American”. I won’t actively try to run from the associated ideas and mannerisms, but I won’t actively try to “white-wash” myself in such a manner either. Maybe it’s that the people that would act in such a manner wouldn’t really associate with someone like me.
Is this really happening? Oh,I feel so wordless about our “mother china”! Where is this country going? Protecting the kids? Is this some kinda joke? You can buy porn on the streets!
Do not buy stock computers! Build your own!
Stupid!
Didn’t China completely dominate a programming competition held recently?
It would be oversimplifying things but quite surprising that they have some of the best programmers in the world and yet come out with garbage software like this.
Seems to me more like this is a money grab by the people who pitched this to the government than as anything useful.
I’m not sure where I stand yet on if this was copied code or not but I think Chinese and western definitions of ‘copying’ are different as well.
@Our China, Here is a point by point, blow by blow rebuttal, as requested:
1. The foreign superiority argument
“China is currently copying the very countries that we are from. If Quasimodo starts trying to dress up like Susan and move away from the whole ‘hunchback’ look, you’re damn right she’s going to feel somewhat superior. That’s a natural reaction.”
You are saying it’s natural for foreigners to develop a superiority complex because China is playing catch up copying the West. Are you justifying foreigners’ condescending superiority complex? China along with the rest of the world has accepted the Western model by and large because of Western technological, militiary, and therefore political and cultural dominance in the past hundred years. Does this fact give westerners an automatic superior status? Your merit rests with your individual achievements.
2. The ‘give us time’ argument
“I understand this type of Faustian deal the Chinese have made with the government…it is true that this government has bought 20 million people out of poverty. But this is a deal that the Chinese have made, not foreign people. Just because the Chinese are willing to turn a blind eye, it does not mean that I will (and I guess, others).”
Good, you don’t have to turn a blind eye. You have a problem with the Chinese political system, speak out.
3. The ‘why do you always criticise’ argument
“The only difference is that China is so outrageously different to the rest of the world that it polarises itself, creating a dichotomy with ‘foreigners’. Also, the mix of the face culture combined with a hyper-nationalist education system means that Chinese people do not react objectively to criticism.”
Since you understand the face culture, why employ abrasive insults? How about a little cultural sensitivity? China is so different because it’s not the West. So it’s China’s fault for being different? You may precise your comment. Regarding the nationalistic educational system, it’s the same in every country. Frankly, I do not find everyday Chinese to be hyper nationalistic, depending on what you mean by hyper nationalistic. Chinese nationalism does not have imperialistic tendencies. Chinese nationalism focuses on the shame and humiliation around the two world wars and encourages the Chinese people to improve and better themselves so we wouldn’t suffer the same fate again.
“I have a lot of foreign friends that I made at university in my own country. They do indeed spend a large amount of time criticizing my country and using me as a flag to throw darts at. When they are valid, I laugh and agree, when not I tell them that I don’t agree and why.”
Again, if everyone keeps their arguments on point, about policy, politics, then we can have a meaningful debate. There can be no meaningful debate when foreigners start to dehumanize the Chinese people. You guys are not stupid, why don’t u get it.
“In my experience Chinese people react to criticism with indignance and attack. They use irreverent and bellicose language to talk about foreign countries and try to accuse us of having equal problems (refer to Susan/Quasimodo point).”
Couple of things. There is the face culture as you mentioned. CCP is good at wrapping itself with China and the Chinese people, just like Bush and the conservative right wing nutjobs in the States. Regular Chinese folks criticize their government all the time and envy TW for its democracy, however dysfunctional it may be. Maybe they felt your criticisms were targeted at the Chinese people. Were you? More likely, it’s the face culture and they just don’t want foreigners to tell them how lousy their government is, eventhough they gripe about the same things themselves.
“There are ways that China can be defended as, of course, their are valid counter-criticisms. However, these are not ones made by the Chinese, who are usually too brainwashed by their education system to argue rationally and intellectually about the subject matter.”
Over generalization and ugly prejudice. All Chinese people are incapable of ratinal intellectual argument? What kind of horse shit is this? It’s the same as saying all westerners are ignorant arrogant fucks. Of course many westerners ARE ignorant arrogant fucks, no doubt about it, but not all and probably not most.
“For whatever reasons there appears to foreign eyes to be a lack of humanity that is specific to this country. The legacy of a dark era, perhaps.”
A lack of humanity?? you need to rethink your word choice and apologize as this is so offensive that I’m at a loss for words.
“For now though, it is infuriating to foreigners who are faced with a very potent mix of mainstream hyper-nationalism and relative backward (although changing everyday) behaviour.”
What do you want the Chinese to do? Act all inferior and say yes white masters, we are learning from you and we hope one day we will be just like you? Parts of China are backward because China was poor. China even skipped industrial revolution and jumped right into modernity. China is playing catch up and it’s doing so at an unprecedently pace in human history. Chinese nationalism gives the Chinese self respect and confidence while trying their best to catch up with the west. Do u want the Chinese to act all meek and inferior b/c of their current state of backwardness?
If you talk to regular Chinese people and if they open up to you, you’d find many of them having the same complaints and wishing for the same things for China as you do. Don’t dehumanize us. We are human beings just like you. Don’t get carried away in your self righteous rage over China’s problems and start attacking the Chinese people themselves.
We all share a common humanity and we should treat each other with equal courtesy and respect.
Rage
That response was much better.
I didn’t ask you for a blow by blow rebuttal.. I don’t have time for one of those! But it was much better to see something informed rather than just a torrent or offensive words. Like a completely different person.
1. I wasn’t saying that it gives foreigners the right, I was just saying that the combination of extremely strong patriotism for a system that forcibly controls its people at the same time as copying the West, serves to fuel this fire of embitterment that you speak of. It’s like China wants to accept the money making aspects from the West, but not democratic and freedom based principles. That’s like eating the chips on the plate but leaving the vegetables.
2. Foreign people do speak out, and it is met with anger. You are contradicting yourself with the 2 sentences; ’speak out’ and ‘how about some cultural sensitivity’. Regretfully, in China, those 2 things are mutually exclusive.
3. I don’t agree with you that China is not an imperialistic country. China maintains an imperial power of regions that quite obviously do not wish to be considered Chinese (let’s not get into that).
So yes… that said, The national identity of China gains its moral high ground by playing the victim to foreign superpowers. The passive non-aggressor, so-to-speak. Unlike Western countries they are unlikely to invade and impose their own systems on foreign regions.. and that’s good. Vietnam, Iraq, these would be things that I would be reminding Western people of if they got self righteous about their countries.
4. ‘Regular Chinese people envy Taiwan’. Eh? What? I haven’t heard this said… EVER (I am guessing that you live in a rich Chinese city)! What I have heard.. often.. is people saying that if Taiwanese people wanted independence the mainland should invade.
5. Re: The brainwashing point.
You twist my words on this. I said ‘usually’ and you changed it to ‘all’.
However, I DO think that the Chinese education system brainwashes the youth and won’t apologise for it. They are taught to read and repeat rather than read and think. They are also given a CCP friendly account of history. In my view it is one of the most important reasons why MOST Chinese people cannot have an honest and frank discussion about the country and culture.
6. Do u want the Chinese to act all meek and inferior b/c of their current state of backwardness?
No. I just want Chinese people to not be brainwashed. See above point about education system.
You conflate your angle at times in the above. Sometimes you appear to be saying that Western people should be patient and give China a break because of its unique position, this implies that foreigners do hold a position of superiority.
For the record, I DO think that foreign people should be patient with Chinese people and treat them with the same respect they treat everyone else… and I personally do. ALWAYS. The problem is, Rage, is that if I treat Chinese people equally then I implicitly have to criticise them, as I would anyone else. If you want me to NOT criticise Chinese culture I will therefore be condescending to them by treating the place with kiddie gloves.
For example, if I was in a foreign restaurant and someone started cutting their nails next to me, I would ask them to not do it and tell them that I think it is disgusting. If I am going to be sensitive to China’s cultural differences, then it follows that I should ignore it. But then, Rage, I’m sure you will understand that this suppression must then be followed by a release. When we leave the restaurant I am going to say something funny yet nasty, because in order to be sensitive I have to let it out somehow. You understand?
Foreign people need to let off steam with each other in order to maintain this cultural sensitivity. It’s the very price of the ’sensitivity’ and patience that you are calling for.
What you see on this website are foreigners speaking out and letting off steam as they would with their foreign friends.
Ps. Please don’t misunderstand me. I said that Chinese people APPEAR inhuman to FOREIGN EYES. It was an objective reference to a common perception made by foreign people. I did not say that I think Chinese people are inhuman.
Rage, as someone who isn’t above sprinkling some “idiots” and expletives in my arguments, I have to say that I wasn’t too keen on the expletive:point ratio of your initial comments. That said, I do fully understand and identify with where you’re coming from and your frustrations.
As for Asis/Our China, you can review his past comments on this website. I’ve already once criticized him for taking the attitude that he and those who share his frustrations (which are understandable, if not always defensible) are somehow entitled to use this website to “let off steam” and vent their frustrations, regardless of how offensive it may be to many Chinese and non-Chinese alike. Along with this sense of entitlement comes a certain proclivity to attack those that would question, criticize, or threaten that entitlement. He will, perhaps, deny this, but I welcome you to review the record for yourself. I will, also, state that Asis/Our China is NOT without his points, but I find a lot of his argumentation to be intellectually dishonest and riddled with fallacies. I share your impression of him being rather condescending (though he’ll accuse me of such as well).
As I first said, I do hope you’ll try to tone down the language (you know, improve the ratio). Feel free to add some spice, but make sure it’s all for slamming home a good solid point. I do think this website can be a good place for good hearty discussions of policy, politics, etc. and I definitely don’t think it should be reserved as some perpetual therepy session for jaded foreigners (FDLR excluded, but only because he’s usually so ridiculous no one can take him seriously, and because I personally think he secretly loves China).
I don’t condone offending the Chinese, and I spend everyday of my life here respecting the social norms and generally being a productive expat by bridging the cultural gaps with my accrued knowledge of the culture and the language. Were you to speak with any of the Chinese people that I interact with on a daily basis you will get glowing reports.
My point is, this is a website designed for English speakers, no? Can I not then assume that if a Chinese person is reading it, it is because they want to know what Foreign people REALLY think. I expect to be able to relax here and speak openly. If people are offended, I am happy to talk to them about my ideas and how they have come about.
The one thing the internet does is allow people anonymity to be open and free. This provides us with a rare opportunity to see what people REALLY think. It’s inherently honest. Do you guys really want foreigners to stop telling the truth of their impression of China on a website for expats? Or do you want to change that impression? If it’s the former then that’s silly and if it’s the latter, you need them to be honest so that you can do that.
I am one of the more open commenters on this website who is happy to maturely bash out issues and attempt to defend my position. There are indeed a lot of ignorant, racist foreigners who dislike China without thinking, that’s true, but I’m not one of them. If you respect nothing else of my opinions, you should respect that. (There are also the absolute inverse; foreigners who orientalise this place and deliberately ignore the negative aspects).
Kai, I should also note that ‘attacking’ as you call it, is when you are aggressive and call people names (except for my indulgent deviation when I called you a ‘pedantic bastard’). I don’t do that. You however, do. And yes, however condescending I may come across, it can’t be half as bad as you, with your dictionary definitions and your regular ‘lol’ reactions to people’s comments.
On another note, Fauna’s recent disclosure makes no difference as I have been entirely consistent. All that he/she has done is demonstrate that if she/he does not like what a commenter is saying, is willing to break the tacit trust bond that exists between commenter and moderator. That should be a point of concern to everybody who writes here.
Asis/Our China:
I don’t think we have much of a choice but to take your word on your real life interactions. That said, my reservations with you are not about what you may be like in real life without the benefit of anonymity but about how you behave, what you defend, and what you argue for online behind the keyboard and veil of anonymity. You’ll notice that I use my real name and picture with whatever I post online, because I do indeed stand by what I say. This is not to say I don’t regret saying certain things or have never made a mistake, but I take responsibility for them. I don’t need to say “oh, but in real life I’m really a good guy and Chinese people love me.”
This is a website designed for English readers to better understand how similar Chinese netizens are to them. Judging by the interviews Fauna’s given, she implicitly accepts that most foreigners are just going to spew their usual bile here, but she continues because what she does actually helps at least some people better understand the inherent humanity between Chinese and non-Chinese. I seriously don’t think she intended this website to be a open-therepy session for jaded foreigners to wantonly bitch and insult her people.
No, in my experience, I notice you being happy to call anyone offended brainwashed and nationalistic, or being politically correct and liberal, in addition to any number of other fallacious attacks I’ve repeatedly quoted you on (see previous comments).
It sounds like all those glowing reports of you above are of your facade, your fake persona, the one you use so you don’t get your ass kicked in China. And your real personality and true self is what we see on your comments here, right? That if you come off as condescending and offensive, it is because you really are…just not in real life where you might get punched, right?
I think we all agree that Fauna can’t really control what people use her website for, but again I don’t think this was a website for expats to vent their bile. I think this was a website for expats to get closer to Chinese netizens in the interest of greater understanding, not greater hatred.
We are being honest. You’re being honest and we’re being honest about your honesty. We attack your honesty just as you attack our honesty. Our difference is that we think you started the cycle of condescension here. You can’t be the fire that accuses others of fighting fire with fire. You can’t be the kettle calling the pot black. There’s a difference between provocation and reaction. You go to bat defending those who provoke and attacking those who react. If you attacked both, you’d have a moral soapbox to stand on, but you don’t. You accuse me of one-sidedness as well, but if you review the record of my comments here, you can actually find many comments of me attacking provokers, whether foreign or Chinese. You? I haven’t seen any, but I welcome you to offer me some proof of you doing so if you think my assessment of your comment history on chinaSMACK is wrong.
Open? Not sure about that. Maturely? Yes, you don’t sprinkle the expletives for effect, but in my book, maturely arguing is a function of logical arguments that don’t depend on fallacies. I find many of your arguments to be riddled with fallacies and your general argumentative stance to be evasive when you encounter a point made against you that you find disadvantageous to acknowledge. However, I do agree that you are willing to bash out issues (just those that you think help you while avoiding those that don’t) and you do attempt to defend your position (which is, indeed, a good thing).
Yes, I agree you’re not a foreigner who dislikes China without thinking.
That inverse is a pretty rare creature in my experience. Are you sure that’s not just a convenience excuse for you to dismiss any other foreigners who disagree with your opinions and behaviors?
Fauna still hasn’t set you straight on this? You attack me when I attack others. I attack others ALSO when others attack others. IT IS THE SAME THING. That you persist in thinking you’re NOT doing the same thing is precisely why you’re so self-righteously hypocritical (and condescending)! I ADMIT to calling people names when they say something I find patently absurd or offensive. You? YOU DON’T. You think your shit doesn’t stink when it stinks just like the rest of us.
LoL.
Yeah, we’ve heard that one before from many other trolls (not that you’re one, despite you accusing me of such yet me proving how you fit the definiton better). As someone who actually uses my real name to comment and respects people who have the balls to stand behind what they think and say, I think it is a GOOD thing that people who try to sock-puppet and create multiple personas on a website are exposed. There’s a “tacit trust bond” that exists in any community that who you are speaking to is a unique individual, not another person’s alter-ego. That you’re willing to engage in such antics and then try to moralize to Fauna and everyone else about it is the true point of concern for everyone who writes here.
“you use a fake name so you don’t get your ass kicked in China”
And you wonder why I call your writing style ‘trollish’ when you pepper your comments with childish and antaganistic statements like this?
Grow up Kai.
1. My argument is about what you say anonymously
This is China, Kai. A government that doesn’t like criticism and a people who are known to enjoy a good flesh search. Yes, I appreciate anonymity. Silly thing to say.
2. “I don’t hide my identity”
Yeah, that’s because your opinions are bland and diluted and not likely to attract an angry Chinese mob. You deliberately evade the issues that lead to Western condescension (although, you have been a bit better in your recent posts – must be my influence).
Anyway, what do you think would have happened if your discussion with Joe Mazeski took place, face to face in a bar or something? I assume that name or not, you don’t go around calling people names like you do on this website. Otherwise (to revert to your childish language) you would get your arse kicked on a daily basis by foreigners.
My point is that this medium benefits frank conversation.. just admit it and stop trying to challenge every point I make because you are in a huff with me.
3. “What she (Fauna) does actually helps at least some people better understand the inherent humanity”
Fauna can pretend she is doing good (for ‘her’ motherland) if she likes, but really the site largely serves to endorse the negative perceptions that foreigners have of mainland China. Ultimately it is good though; because of the face culture here. Foreign people are often kept away from the ‘truth’ by Chinese people who are worried about disgracing a country they feel an inordinate amount of social pressure to protect. This site exposes it.
4. Argument filled with fallacies
Well, if you’re referring to the observations that I make about China that are based on what can be seen on a daily basis here and shared with by the great majority of foreigners from all over the world but ignored by you… okay. I’d hate for you to have to remove your ‘on-the-fence’ blinkers for a minute.
5. Fauna and the ‘complaining about people complaining’ point.
This a statement of fact (except I would state that I am not ‘complaining’, i am discussing). Well done, YES, that’s what I am doing. This is discussion forum, for God’s sake! What a strange reason for a moderator to breach protocol. It’s a silly and meaningless point. That’s why I am ignoring it.
The point is that this is the second time that Fauna has waded in against me. Last time it was also aimed at you, but this time was more specific. She is choosing the commenters she doesn’t like and using her position to undermine them. That’s abuse of power. I happen to know for a fact that there are others who have two names on this site, but she has not exposed them. She chose me.
Finally and most importantly, I am not saying that this site should be called ChinaBash. I began my ‘attack’ on you, because I felt you were deliberatly avoiding the negative aspects of China, condescending and being rude to people in the process.
The fact that you have tried to turn my post; where I am stipulating that I DON’T advocate racism, DON’T think that this site should be for blind racism, and DON’T treat Chinese people any differently to anyone else, into a boring rant about how I don’t have ‘balls’ and am scared of getting my ‘ass kicked’, is very typical of your childish and trollish writing style.
Childish and antagonistic statements like this?
Do you really need me to prove how you’re no better than me? You calling my writing trollish is a joke, yet another example of your insipid self-righteous hypocrisy.
Gasp…”China…” Fear fear fear! So again, on one hand you argue for the righteousness of honesty, and on the other, you’re afraid to stand behind it. Gotcha.
In general, well-thought out, respectful opinions don’t attract angry mobs. Inflammatory, offensive opinions do. You call it bland, I call it appropriate. This is Asis/Our China’s modus operandi: Opinions he disagrees with are accused of being brainwashed and nationalistic. Opinions he can’t fault are accused of being bland and diluted. So, that leaves only opinions he agrees with (generally opinions of condescension towards the Chinese) as being opinions he likes. Fantastic.
I don’t think regularly acknowledging how understandable Western frustration or condescension can be is in any way me evading. Please quote me before you make a silly argument like that. My disagreement with you historically has never been about how understandable your Western condescension is, but about how inappropriate and offensive it is. Instead of acknowledging it just as I acknowledge the issues that lead to your condescension, you insist on trying to justify it.
I’d probably punch him in the face the moment he falsely accused me of being a racist. I actually do go around calling idiots “idiots.” The thing is, most people don’t behave like idiots offline. We’ve gone over this before. Just like you, you embrace your condescension online in the spirit of “therepeutic honesty” but you maintain that you’re a good ol’ boy in real life where the Chinese around you have “glowing reports” about you. Likewise, the vast majority of commenters who behave like idiots on chinaSMACK don’t in real life. If they did and said something as patently offensive and disrespectful as they do on here, you can be sure I’d call them out on it.
LoL, aren’t you accusing me of the same thing I’ve accused you before? Yes, yes you are.
Spoken like a true divider. Hey, you’re free to form your own interpretations and aspirations for what purpose this website serves. I’ll form mine. It is, however, a shame that you cannot see beyond the surface of all the phenomenon shown on this website, recognizing it all as fairly universal. All you see is what you want to see, evidence that you’re better and they (Chinese) are as every bit worse as you feel them to be. It is truly sad that you can’t identify on a social level the same underlying good, bad, and ugly inherent in all of these phenomenon that all humanity shares. Very shallow of you, Asis.
No, I’m referring to arguments filled with falacies. You might want to look up the definition of each word in that sentence, or stop being disingeneuous.
I think her point was showing how you’re doing the same thing you accuse others of, you know, admitting to your own hypocrisy? I don’t think she was complainig about discussion. She was complaining about going around in circles pretending we’re not complaining about each other.
She’s waded in against a lot of people. Don’t feel too special. I prefer to think it is because you’re nauseatingly self-righteous and hypocritical, but I won’t put words in her mouth (those were my words).
Probably because of the above reason.
It is her website, that’s her privilege and right. I don’t tolerate sock-puppetry on CNR either, and believe me, I’m far more ruthless in exposing them. It isn’t abuse of power. You creating multiple names to deceive others is abuse of trust, especially when you engage in such antics to discuss contentious issues with other commenters of the community.
Who are these other people you “happen to know for a fact” using two names? I know there’s a Ms. J or Evalin or something, but her comments are harmless (often nonsensical…to us mere mortals of course). You, however, come across as every bit of a prick as I must come across to some. I’m not surprised when Fauna comes out and chides us. The difference between you and I is that I take responsibility, yet you’re now developing some sort of victim persecution complex. Have you ever considered that you’re every bit as annoying to some as I am to others? Maybe she felt compelled to pick on you this time because I, unlike you, didn’t create a new name. If I were her, I’d certainly find someone who is self-righteously and hypocrtically condescending towards Chinese to be much more annoying than just someone random idiot who spews off some bile and doesn’t try to justify it.
And as I said before, I don’t think the record shows me deliberately avoiding the negative aspects of China whatsoever. Furthermore, as I’ve said many times now, I fully admit to being condescending and rude to people who are being condescending and rude to others. One major reason I call you a self-righteous hypocrite is precisely because you defend those people’s right to be condescending and rude so long as you agree with their sentiments, and attack others for being condescending and rude only when they disagree with your sentiments. HYPOCRISY. You want people to be allowed to be rude to the Chinese but you forbid others to be rude to these rude people.
Sorry, that’s just wrong. You’re misrepresenting my objection to you. I have no objection with you NOT advocating racism, etc. I have an objection with you being self-righteous and hypocritical. Intentionally misrepresenting other people’s positions is what is really typical of childish and trollish writing. I am very clear about what I disagree with you on and no where do I try to twist your position on racism. I welcome you to try arguing it though. Go ahead and quote me. Show us where I’ve done anything but object to your self-righteous hypocrisy.
“it can’t be half as bad as you”
My god. You are actually a child.
I’m out Kai. You’ll have to find someone else to wind up.
srsposting ITT.
Grow up, guys. Whatever the hell your point is, nobody has respect for people who these long-ass responses. Kai, I can just imagine the nerd rage in your eyes as you bang this shit out on your keyboard at work.
Listen, NOBODY CARES about your opinion.
I think it is funny that you do not care but you are so angry. I also do not think they will care about your opinion about their opinion. This is life. Life is funny.
I’m not actually angry – I’m just accustomed to websites that ban this kind of aspie behavior, or at least ridicule people who take themselves too seriously until they leave.
It’s just I’ve had to click through so damn many of these long-ass pointless arguments full of personal attacks on a website I really like, I felt like saying something. They always involve Kai, and nobody ever agrees on anything. It seems like a collossal waste of time for everyone involved.
But I usually come here to waste time, so whatever.
If you do not like reading the comments, you can consider subscribe to RSS. I like BBS because of comments. Sometimes there are many stupid comments but sometimes there are many good ones. I think this is normal and I think this is important.
hey frank you’re a dickward
Ha. I like being inhuman. I’m sick of being human. Sharing humanness with you all suck big donkey balls. Therefore, fuk it.
YOU PEOPLE sssssssssuck.
Just get over man. Some people just hate you. WHo cares.
Fauna, have a look at this, you’ll love it:
http://www.hecaitou.net/?p=5770
1984: Read the book or watch the movie, people.
Big brother is watching you.
Whoa this site is full of some truly self-important windbags.
Holy shit, get a grip.
LMAO, finally some critical analysis of users here.
no shit. the only thing I hate about this website is the few people who take it really really seriously and shit up every topic with their well-reasoned arguments. Bunch of English teachers at work raging out on the “expat” blogs… arrggh. If Kai and anyone who engages in an argument with him were banned this whole page would be a lot better.
Strangely enough, I agree.
I started off criticising Kai for doing this and ended up doing it myself! A warning to all. It’s easy to get sucked in and ultimately.. batty.
唉
你这种人最恶心
错就认错吧
别继续装逼了
“唉
你这种人最恶心
错就认错吧
别继续装逼了”
Why are you commenting in Chinese Fauna? Are you afraid that the “foreigners” will understand this comment, exposing your partisanship for the entire world to see?
What a beautiful example of cowardice and hypocrisy it is. Us versus “them”, the clan, the gang, the insiders, the fucking brainwashed robotic herd…
Stomp, stomp, Confucius, stomp stomp, click, bzzzz, 5000 years of glory, stomp, Evil Western world, click, I heart China, click, stomp, stomp…
It’s not about being right or wrong or even admitting it. The people are entitled to have their opinion and exposing someone like you did with Our China/Asis is just disrespectful. In my opinion, what you did was way more outrageous than any views he could or did share on this forum. Your action was a blatant display of immaturity and partisanship.
I’m seriously wondering if you are ready to handle such a public forum Fauna.
If you don’t want the people to express their views under the guise of anonymity, then stop moaning about it and put in place a mandatory registration process required to comment on your blog – even better – ask the readers to send you a copy of their passport or their I.D. This way you can expose them even more easily.
The internet and its anonymity is truly a blessing in this age of renewed worldwide oppression, right winged mentality and political correctness (Political correctness which by the way is also known to be the lowest common denominator form of thinking ). This anonymity is the last bastion of freedom for a person who wishes to express himself honestly without social or moral constraints.
While the herd is more than happy to joyfully embrace the end of critical and rational thinking, others speak out and generate meaningful discussion.
Jingoistic apologists and failed journalists like Kai (Chinese, doing business in China and promoting China to the world on their blogs) have nothing to lose by not hiding their true identity. Others do.
You’d be very surprised sometimes at what kind of people are behind what some perceive as trollish inflammatory comments. Doctors, lawyers, respected business man, the clerk at the shop, your neighbor… Who knows?
And most importantly, who cares? It’s irrelevant.
What matters is to engage people in dialogue. Not determining who’s right or wrong.
Many “Foreigners” living in China or doing business there have a very different view about many different things related to China and the Chinese society. But because they are strongly opinionated doesn’t mean that they are automatically “wrong” or “right” as some people likes to think.
Life is gray, not black and white.
I write Chinese because I want to. So what? He can read Chinese. Why are you telling me to write English? Are you my master?
I think he is zhuang bi. That is my opinion. I am entitled to my opinion. It is not about right or wrong. It is about my opinion. Other people can argue better about right or wrong. Why can you have your opinion but I cannot?
You say people you disagree with are brainwashed herd and jingoist apologists and failed journalists. You say people you agree with are only “strongly opinionated” and doctors, lawyers, respected business man, etc. Do you not think this comment expose your “partisanship”? Do you not think this is a “beautiful example” of your “cowardice and hypocrisy”?
开玩笑
你这种人想跟我讲道德。。。
Life is funny.
@The Grudge-
OK, now maybe you should step back a little. It’s not your site, it’s Fauna’s. If (she? sorry, I’m not sure) sees fit to comment in Chinese because (she?) believes it will be understood, then so be it.
“Why are you telling me to write English? Are you my master?”
Please, I’m not commanding you to do anything. I’m just questioning the timing of such a comment, and why usually only insults are written in Chinese. That’s all.
“You say people you disagree with are brainwashed herd and jingoist apologists and failed journalists. You say people you agree with are only “strongly opinionated” and doctors, lawyers, respected business man, etc.”
Please show me where I said that? You are merely reformulating what I’ve said and now changing totally the meaning of it. I did not say that I agree with one group or the other. That wasn’t the point of my comment, at all.
I’m actually saying the opposite and advocating open mindedness and tolerance toward divergent points of view while pointing to the fact that sometimes some of the inflammatory comments are not necessarily written by trolls.
As a side note, for all the Chinese readers, please watch the movie called: 1984 (nineteen eighty-four).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four_(film)
Spread the word and educate yourself about what we’ve been through already in the “western world”.
Watch this movie, and you might understand why we look at China with such derision. For us China and its society is a bad B science fiction movie scenario gone bad…
And it’s not even funny.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
im sorry but this post is just too funny XD XD
thanks mate you made my day
oh, also you are a douschebag. ciao!
what! they made a movie for that book? I wonder if they made an Animal Farm movie. THAT would actually have entertainment value, that justified the outrages movie ticket prices.
apparently there are animal farm movies. one cartoon and one live action, western media never cease to amaze me…
But seriously though, 1984 is put on a pedestal because of it’s readability rather than it’s value. A better and more plausible book in this category would be Friedrich Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom. However, its message is a bit one sided and it predictions remain to be seen. (that’s is if future isn’t altas shrugged). ….The world is a lot more complicated than our high school English and civics class made it out to be.
C’ mon, why bother, just give each one of us a brainwash and install a chip in our brain, don’t you think its an easier way to control us? SB!
We are smart enough to protect ourselves. Thank our goverment a lot. Do not waste money that was taken from your people.Your people are not that idiot like you thought of.
I give The People’s Republic of China a few more decades before it falls.
wake up chinese..
This seemed like the best place to post this link:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/internet_adds_12th_website
If you want to see the “feature” story on the onion from the beginning, go here first, then read the four related stories.
http://www.theonion.com/content/columnists/well_ive_sold_the_paper_to?utm_source=most_pop_dugg