From Tianya, “Thoroughly stupefied/stunned, famous domestic doctor does not know how to speak English“:
I did not feel well a couple days ago, so I made an appointment with a well-known doctor of a three-class-A-level hospital of Shanghai. When I was in his clinic, I thought I did not do a good job describing to him how I felt in Chinese, so I started to tell him about my body condition in English. The well-known doctor looked like he did not really understand me, and three graduate students were called to come help translate. It took a good while for them to figure out how I felt, and the doctor gave a prescription according to my description.
The graduate students told me afterward, that where I really needed to go is the Foreign Guest Clinic of Huashan Hospital.
I was extremely stunned.
How could a well-known doctor from Shanghai’s not know how to speak English…
I know that renowned doctors from each country in the world almost all use English to communicate. These days, English is the world’s superior/most advantageus language. Moreover, professional magazines, such as Cancer and Lancet and etc. are all published in English. As a “famous doctor,” I cannot believe he does not understand English. I used many “terms” when I was explaining my condition to him. I thought even if his English is not good, he could at least understand the terms. The truth was that he could not even understand what “syringe” was. I was really astonished.
I don’t know if that well-known doctor hangs out in the bar or the library in his spare time, but I do know that so-called “medicine” needs to be studied in English. Today, English is the leading language of science in the whole world.
Some people say that medicine in Germany or Japan is also good. In fact, many of the German, French, and Japanese medical people in my friends circle have their essays published in English periodicals. Many Germans, especially university professors, such as professors from the University of Tubingen and Frankfurt University, have no problem communicating with me in English. Many Japanese scholars, especially the professors and doctors of the University of Kyoto, speak fluent English, and we always exchange ideas in English. I have also met a French professor. He communicated with me in English, even though he had a tremendously strong accent.
However, in today’s China, even in Shanghai, there are people who have the reputation of “famous doctor” who don’t even speak English. How unbelievable…
I have no idea how they can improve themselves and keep up with the newest trends in the world. However, in Shanghai, the most developed city in China (and also my hometown), well-known doctors who work in the first-class clinic don’t speak English. How unbelievable. If Shanghai is like this, I can’t imagine the medical situation in the inner part of China….
Those who want to be in medicine should at least understand English. This way, they at least will not have problems reading the latest medical magazines. It’s important because medical people deal with people’s lives, not machines.
Not understanding English, not understanding medicine’s latest developments and trends, is basically being irresponsible with people’s lives and health!!!
Comments on Tianya:
Shocked!!
This foreigner can write pretty good Chinese!!
This proves that Chinese really has a market!!
LZ [lou zhu, original topic starter], how many years have been learning Chinese? It is not easy for a foreigner to learn Chinese!
What LZ has said is correct. Western medicine came to China from the West. Its origin is in the West. English is the leading language if one wants to have academic communication and publish academic papers. If one does not even know English, how would one improve their medicine?
F*, you know nothing about doctors.
The real famous Chinese doctors don’t speak English.
The doctors in our Henan (a province) don’t know English,
but there are many presidents or leaders of other countries who come and want to be diagnosed by them.
You SB [stupid cunt]; you are lucky to have been seen at all.
You deserve to be yelled at.
You eat Chinese rice, but fart (speak) like a foreigner. Despicable!!!
Godfather II: I never believed a doctor who doesn’t speak English.
Faint! What you said almost made me pass out! There are so many Indians who work overseas as doctors and not all of them are good doctors. Why should Chinese doctors learn English? I was very upset when I heard that one needs to pass the English exam to work in the government. Don’t people who work in the government serve Chinese people (except some special departments such as Customs)? Will they do their jobs better if they learn English?
Thoroughly stupefied, never thought I would have the opportunity to meet this Tianya celebrity.
LZ, you can choose to only find doctors who speak English to diagnose you!!! However, Chinese psychiatrists who know how to speak English are very very few, you will need to search really really hard!!!
The staff of the Shanghai Mental Disorder Institute neglected their duty of guarding their patients; they again let a patient escape.
Most famous foreign doctors don’t speak Chinese. If you don’t believe me, you can go try and see. But I doubt you can afford it. A famous doctor is not Doremon [a famous Japanese cartoon character that is a robotic cat], who can speak all languages…
Comments on NetEase:
Thoroughly stupefied, famous English doctor does not know how to speak Chinese!!
People who cannot explain things clearly in Chinese, don’t go on Chinese BBS forums.
LZ is a typical foreign-worshipper, foreign dog.
SB, a doctor’s job is to diagnose his patients, not to translate languages. This, In China, is known as different animals being good at different things. You think a doctor needs to know everything? That whatever new medical trends are fashionable? Any doctor that can cure patients is a “good doctor.”
Recommend you go to English-speaking countries to see a doctor. Recommend you relearn Chinese starting from elementary school.
Not knowing English will not affect him feeding himself, but knowing English will affect you curing your sickness. In China, it’s better to learn Chinese.
Actually, everyone who knows English knows that English cannot be compared to Chinese. Next to Chinese, English is basically trash. It won’t be long before Chinese will become the worldwide language. Learning English is f*king useless.
I also want to yell at the LZ. Why mention “Shanghai”? Are you trying to say that Shanghai people don’t have good English? Moreover, you spoke English to him; you must have thought you were cool, huh? But in others eyes you are just abnormal and despised. Plus, you said that a famous doctor did not understand your so-called simple English. Let me ask you one thing, how old is he? An 80 year old man? Had he ever gone to college? When he was young, what was happening in China? People were fighting the Japanese, how could people study? So you need to think about all the reasons why he wouldn’t speak English. You spoke about the doctors from other countries blah blah; when they were young, what were the situations in their countries? Why don’t you think about that? Another thing: why don’t you think about the differences between countries? Some European countries use several languages. Why don’t you say that Chinese only speak one common language, and we cannot beat them on this perspective? Finally, I think that in China many people don’t speak English, and they live just fine, maybe even better than you do. People can live well without English, why do they need to learn English?
It seems that the person who wrote this post is a foreigner. May I ask, if we go to see a doctor in your country, do we Chinese need to demand that the doctor speak Chinese? Want to live in China? Learn Chinese first.
Why don’t you just type the whole story in English? You wrote this sh*t in Chinese for what? You can make yourself clear enough in Chinese, why didn’t you just talk to the doctor in Chinese? Do you have mental problems? Or which nerve has disappeared?
I learned my English all from “OH! YES, YES…” [porn] LZ, do you want me to diagnose you? SB.
[LZ] is purely looking for trouble. Hey, where is yesterday’s post about the traffic police officer who stopped a military car? A lot of people were following that.
A Chinese, living in China, who doesn’t understand Chinese, is himself not being responsible for his own life and health.
LZ is a SB! Are you not Chinese? If you are, why did you speak English! If your are, go have plastic surgery just like Johnson [should be Jackson] ! He changed from a black person to a white person. You? You can change from an yellow person to white person! That way, you can go happily be a foreigner! LZ is a despicable pig!
I am totally shocked. You have enough money to see a famous Shanghai doctor, but you can not speak normal Chinese.
LZ is despicable! Who had told you that a famous doctor needs to know English? What logic is this? The chairman of our People’s Republic do not understand English; do you think he cannot keep up with the world? I think you just ate too much foreign fast food.
SB theory! Obviously a Shanghainese, but while explaiing explaining your condition you had to use English. What does this mean? It means you are a “jia yang gui zi” [fake foreign devil]! Thoroughly stupefied! How could great Chinese people give birth to such a trashy fake foreign devil!!
A Chinese person who can’t express his basic body condition in Chinese. Even if he is not worthy of being a “famous doctor”, but you are not even worthy of being a “human”!!!
LZ’s head was kicked by a donkey. Do you not know how to speak Chinese? I most dislike those type of people who mix a few English words in their Chinese!!! Extremely SB!!!
NetEase also had a poll:
It is necessary for those who study medicine to understand English
1,277 votes (4.79%)
It is not necessary for those who study medicine to understand English
25,379 votes (95.21%)
Total number of voters: 26,656 [as of 4:20pm, 08/10/11]
What do you think?
See also:
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In China, I never believed a doctor who does speak English.
In China, I would never believe a doctor, whether they spoke English or not.
Just glad the cowdung plaster on my fractured hand didn’t cause long term damage, though I did get kicked off some mini-buses for being a ’smelly foreigner’. Hell, I really didn’t smell any worse than the peasants on that rural bus. But I did have to get a shot after some chickens on the bus pecked at my legs. I rejected the traditional ‘root’ medicine for actual medicine. HAHA
@Rich,
It’s unfortunate that you think this way (i.e. Chinese doctors are quacks). Chinese doctors may not have access to the latest high-tech medical devices, but in terms of medical expertise and experience, I think they are among the world’s best (on average). For a broad range of diseases and afflictions, you will get equal if not better treatment in China than anywhere else. This is speaking from a person who have experienced care in both the USA and China (I had my herniated disc operation done in China. It successfully relived my back pain and I have been without any complications after 4 years now).
Bob,
It was more of a comment on the use of outmoded, at least when the incident happened a few years ago, methods and discredited superstition that fell into disrepute in the west more than a century ago when we established ‘modern’ medicine.
I have no doubt there are quality hospitals in China, but they are too far and wide and expensive for the average Chinese to afford. Seeing the hospital in Beijing where a student friend of mine had to go for treatment three years ago, it shocked me that in the capital such an antiquated hospital and methods still existed. There are of course many problems in China, health care among them, that need further development. National arrogance over the promotion and use of useless herbal treatments, along with the wasted resources to ‘train’ these ‘doctors’ doesn’t really help create the modern medical system China needs and deserves. Frankly I couldn’t care less if the Doctor could speak English or not, as long as I had an accurate and honest translator and the Doctor was properly qualified, using clean, modern instruments.
Having been treated in Hong Kong at a major hospital and large medical clinic, I can say not all Doctors there can effectively communicate in English either.
They really don’t care, until they start to treat foreign patients who will pay handsomely as opposed to some random Chinese peasant. Then again, those who do are probably no longer in China
Who cares if the doctor speaks English or not. How is it a requirement? Hell, how many Western doctors can speak Chinese? Does this prevent them from learning valuable things from traditional chinese medicine? No. Sort of stupid of the poster to think this matters if you ask me.
It’s possible that the doctor could READ English just fine, and is able to understand medical journals and such. Writing, listening and speaking may be more difficult for him.
Even at Huashan Hospital in Shanghai a lot of the junior residents have poor English — it is ironically the older attendings and senior consultants who may have studied aboard who have a much grasp of the language. However all of them have been able to at least understand my problems and help me with very complicated procedures including retinopathy and laser surgery to repair holes in my retina.
I feel very confident getting care there and Huashan has been my primary hospital during all of my five years here.
J.
Regarding the Chinese medical system, my impression is that the Chinese use traditional medicine in the same way we in the West use OTC drugs. It’s not necessarily the most effective medication available, but it’s generally considered safe and for use in non-serious cases.
I agree with the other commenters who’ve mentioned the necessity of knowing English to be a well-informed doctor, but it’s not necessarily a critical liability if you can’t speak English. What’s shocking is the cultural imperialism of the first poster, which suggests that he or she is just trying to troll Tianya.
There seemed to be only ONE Chinese response that encompassed the real point that the OP was trying to make. The rest instantly polarized their thinking into black and white positions and prejudiced opinions that didn’t even address the main issue. The real meaning of the argument appeared to fly completely over the majority of their heads.
The question was whether the doctors are doing what is best for the people …. and not just foreigners either. After all, the amount of foreigners in this country is pretty small compared to the rest of the population. Are the doctors not doing a disservice to EVERYONE by not being able to keep up with the research being done in other countries? Why is it that the responders only replied as if this is just an issue of a foreigner unable to communicate his problems to a doctor in order to get the help he needed? Why is it they say it’s only fair because foreign doctors don’t speak Chinese? What has that got do with anything? I’m astounded at their ignorance.
I sometimes wondered whether the inability to see subtle nuances or the whole picture was due to many Chinese people’s inability to understand the English language. Since that message was posted in their own language, I guess I’ve got to reevaluate some of my thoughts about this.
Equally ludicrous was the message one responder left about government officials. Yes, they do need to speak English in order to serve their own people because these aren’t the 1950’s! China has to deal with the rest of the world in many ways if it has any hope for the future. You may not speak English, but that only means someone else needs to communicate in that language for you because that is the language that is in international use. Hey, it would be great if you could all speak better English, but since you can’t, your political and business leaders do that for you …. and reap all the financial benefits for themselves in the meantime. If you’re lucky, maybe they’ll throw a few scraps your way when they’ve satiated their own appetites.
China is developing into a modern country. Guess what? It isn’t happening that way without any outside help. A lot of that help is coming from money that flows in from foreign trade and investment. The way that happens is through communication. I hate to burst your bubble, but the bulk of that communication occurs in English. If you aren’t one of those speaking English, I bet you’re somewhere on the lower rungs of the social ladder and thus aren’t reaping the tremendous financial benefits that others are getting.
I know that makes some people feel bad, but those are the cold, hard facts. A lot of the angry responses seem to be from people who want to make excuses for their own ignorance. We’ve all probably done that at one time or another. When I was a boy in school, I also complained that math was useless and didn’t see the relevance of it. I certainly saw the usefulness of it in my later years. I also didn’t realize how much I didn’t know without it. I guess a person never knows how dark a room is until he opens his eyes and looks for a light switch.
I’m trying to re-learn Chinese now, knowning English is still important in today’s world, but the Chinese language will become as important if not more so in the not so far off future…
Regarding doctors not knowing English in China, that’s normal, why would they need to learn it? People here in the U.S. don’t learn Chinese to learn about traditional Chinese medicine, they don’t need to learn Aramaic or Latin to read the bible…there is something called translation, you translate from one language to another.
@Inst,
“在解释病情的时候觉得自己用中文表达并不是很清楚.于是就用英语说了一下自己的感受”
“I thought I did not do a good job describing to him how I felt in Chinese, so I started to tell him about my body condition in English.”
Yeah, definitely a troll!
Unfortunately, the practice of “don’t feed the trolls” hasn’t quite gotten there yet; you can practically feel the fire and brimstone coming out of most of the replies.
Chinese will not become THE language of the future. As long as Chinese basically don’t try to mix into the societies they move into (which is their right to do or not to do) you can count on the language NOT becoming the world’s next global language. You can dream about it though :P
I DON’T hope you go overseas and your wife needs some surgery and has to sign a form stating that “because you are foreigners we can charge you more”! That’s what my friends had to do in a Chinese hospital. Same crap service but double the price, now that’s professionalism! Who gives a crap if they speak English or not. The sad thing is that many Chinese will say “haha, good, I like that idea because the ‘west’ has done this and that…blah, blah, blah….5000 years distory, blah, blah, blah.
Who cares if the Chinese doctor doesn’t speak English. But to ask “if I go to the USA or the UK will that doctor speak Chinese?” That is just behaving like a baby. Grow up. Why does everything on the net in China have to turn into a bunch of local people (certainly not most) proving they have a low self-image and scream out nationalistic “my language is better than your language” stupidity!!?
Boy am I glad I come from an English speaking country.
At least I am comfortable in the knowledge that I have no need to learn any foreign language as the entire world is trying to learn mine.
Both my parents are doctors in the US. I am also very closely related in the medical field with a lot of experience in US hospitals. I definitely feel it is important to know english to be a well informed doctor. Our doctor friends in China definitely do have the same access to data as we do. Some of the most up to date texts are not translated in several advanced fields (which is something my father is doing right now atm, translating english medical texts to chinese).
Though i understand why people would be angry over this issue, saying that chinese medical care is on par with US is ridiculous. The average hospital in the US is a lot better equipped than a chinese hospital. The imagery technology is much more sophisticated and quality of care tends to be higher.
My grandmother had a small intestine infection last year. It would not have been serious if she had been in the us. My parents saw her ct-scans and immediatly called her hospital in china and told them to operate, because that’s what they would have done in the us. Disregarding their advice, her doctors waited an extra 3 days, which lead to necropsy(death of tissue) in a large portion of her small intestine. This issue can be attributed to a lack of experience, but at the same time it is also due to the fact that the most up to date medical data is in english. Saying anything else is very ignorant. Yes chinese herbal medicine has great history, but not learning a dominant language does not give you a great edge in the field of medicine.
since he is in Shanghai, he’d better learn expressing himself with Chinese, where Shanghainese can be an even better option.
why a shanghainese must know how to speak English.
Do as the Romans do
The point is more about how so-called professionals in China are woefully inadequate when it comes to keeping up with the latest advances. I don’t see how doctors can dismiss the importance of working English by relying on non-doctors to translate medical journals, as domain knowledge is needed…and of course time.
Hmmm…not so simple. Have you ever been in a hospital in China? Was the problem very serious?
I have been in a traffic accident and had an extended stay in a chinese hospital.
While they were very kind and cordial, I will say that the doctors didn’t know very much at ALL. Simple stuff like icing of joints was a total mystery, and when asking for ice, I was told that since I wasn’t a doctor, how could I know the right methods…here, have this herbal pill.
Doctors are obligated to know just one foreign language: LATIN. Books can be translated, articles can be translated. On conferences translation services are available.
Other comments about English (most advantageous, etc) is nothing more than stupidity. Cuban doctors are better than USA’s, and they learn from Russian books.
Maybe, famous doctor knows Russian or Japanese or German. Maybe, Shanghai’s people doesn’t like to learn English as it reminds them on colonial slavery?
What makes doctor famous is hers/his knowledge of medicine, not of English.
hello everyone,
I’ve been living in china for a while, and thus have been in contact with chinese hospitals a few times. (last time yesterday).
I’m wondering why chinese doctors do not speak english.
Obviously, it’s not necessary for their current activity.
BUT, learning another language is part of the culture, as well as geography, history, or litterature (wchich are also not necessary).
So, my question is : why medecine universities do not have english classes ? Is it because of some bad reasons (english-speaking doctors can move out of china?)
I hope the reason is different…
@Veer Left RE: Doctors don’t know shit
I agree that most doctors here don’t know shit. Once, I had a swollen fist one week and after swelling subsided on index/middle knuckles (actually, caused by scrap mentioned in a different post), realized my hand wasn’t swollen but actually had a fracture. Clearly a boxer’s fracture. Went to hospital, had x-rays, realized it was a significant boxer’s fracture and thought they’d suggest to re-break it and/or surgery to straighten and secure with steel plate screwed across the fracture until the bone cemented. Doctor refused, said I wasn’t a bone specialist like him and that by using this melted plastic mesh (suitable for a very minor fracture or stress, perhaps) which was heated then form fitted to my hand it would “naturally” straighten.
Needless to say, my hand is still fucking fractured a year later, and I need to wait until I’m in another country to request a re-break and surgery at some future time…or risk a serious snap if I ever mis-punch and baby knuckle is pressured. Not much we can do in China though, eh, it is how it is.
@krdr RE: “Cuban doctors are better than USA’s”
I don’t know what you’re basing your information on, “Sicko” by Michael Moore? But it’s not entirely correct. In fact, if that is the case (it’d be a big coincidence as your example if it isn’t.) Sicko is about medical and healthcare on whole, not specifically how well doctors perform or how knowledgeable doctors are. I wouldn’t be able to make a good judgment myself without doing significant research on the topic, though, and since I’m from Canada I only have limited comparison – between Chinese and Canadian doctors. I can say hands down, I don’t trust doctors here — and have had enough personal experience with them to prefer self-diagnose to their nonsense. One actually told me I had GOUT based on the fact I had a swollen ankle, and demanded a full line of testing to find out – I scoffed, but allowed it out of convincing from the female I was with that doctors here are ridiculous, and of course…it was just a badly twisted ankle. Another “famous” hospital — that one.
and RE: “is nothing more than stupidity”
Yeah, learning an internationally accepted standard language for communication in an “international” city is definitely STUPID. Very STUPID in fact. Especially from someone in a profession which serves many different patients in that international city every day. Do you believe that if you went to a “famous” hospital in Japan, the doctor would not speak English? How about Hong Kong? How about Taiwan? I’d be shocked if your reply was: “yes, that would be Stupid if they did”
Doctors are at their best in their 40’s and 50’s. I’m not sure there was as many strangers as today 20 years ago. I quite sure that in France or Germany doctors doesn’t speaks English.
If we talk about culture, English and American doctors doesn’t learn foreign languages (not even Hindu or Spanish).
@krdr
Canadian doctors do. :)
@Rick
Yes, I intentionally exaggerated comparation between USA and Cuban doctors. Thankfully, I didn’t get sick in China, but my friend are. Until she payed, no one wanted to speak with her. Then, their English was fluent and care was excellent.
Line: “These days, English is the world’s superior/most advantageus language” is stupid line. English language is “Lingua Franca” of today’s tech driven world, but that doesn’t make English language superior or more advantageous language. That was my point.
I don’t argue the fact that learning foreign language is the must (English especially), I argue being famous doctor means being fluently English speaker.
No. To be famous doctor you should be good doctor. If you have problem with knees or ankles, you would prefer my friend, only serbian speaking and supreme orthopedist, than many of only English speaking USA (even Canadian) doctors.
DKwan has a good point. It’s only speculation but it’s not at all unusual to encounter Chinese who read English at a very advanced level and yet can hardly speak a word. On that topic, it’s also not unusual to meet foreign students who can read advanced Chinese but couldn’t hit a tone if their life depended on it.
@Buhaoyise
Yep, that’s me with Chinese, but more because I have poor tonal hearing and can’t seem to ever get pronunciation correct because I can’t hear it correctly in the first place.
KRDR: If we talk about culture, English and American doctors doesn’t learn foreign languages (not even Hindu or Spanish).
We’re not talking about culture, dude. I agree, Americans should learn Spanish (Hindu? that’s random..). But we’re talking about English as a lingua franca, not as the ‘culture’ of the UK / US. I do believe that German and French doctors speak English on the whole because Germans and (to a lesser extent) French people speak English on the whole.
As for this whole Chinese as a global language, well… Part of the reason English is used widely is because of the history of the British and later the Americans. But part of the reason that it stuck is that learning basic English is not that difficult. People can communicate in English (at a basic level) after much fewer hours than they would need to reach a similar level in many other languages, including of course Chinese. It’s only at the intermediate level and above the English gets tricky. I do think China will become a regional language though, given history and it’s current position in Asia.
@Michelle
Let’s stick to the poster’s theory: “Famous doctor should know English language” for some wrong reasons.
Doctors are at their best in middle-ages. “Famous doctor” finished his uni in 80’s. At that time, they learned Mandarin, Russian, eventually French. Middle aged doctor will never learn English well enough to communicate with ease with foreigners. At the end, it isn’t economical. Why would middle-aged doctor, from 18 million city learn English? For laowai students convenience? There’s just 33 000 of expats in SH. There’s more doctors in SH than foreigners!
Poster said that his Chinese was not good enough, but he expect that middle aged Chinese doctor speaks English well! How many foreign patients doctor have each year? One, two?
That’s why Foreigners Hospitals are invented. So foreigners can go there and speak on their language and be charged, so doctors can pay for English classes.
Question: Do you prefer your doc spent three years specializing on your health problem or learning English?
Whole story are so stupid.
在中国，不懂英语不会说英语很正常。正如在英国或美国或其他任何欧洲、美洲、澳洲等其他国家都有母语和外语之分。虽然在亚洲的一些发达国家英语用的比较多，这是存在于特定的环境中。每个国家的环境起码可以分为五种：很好、好、中等、差、很差。不同的环境接触的事务及知识结构不同、所塑造的个人层面也会不一样，结合环境用哲学的术语就是社会人。
从个人的角度来说，任何人不是全能的。在当今社会，知识总量每3年左右会翻一番，又有多少人能够做到在自己的专业领域做到最好能，放在你本身来讲，对自己的国家、文化、历史、经济、甚至自己本身又能做到何种程度呢！每个人都是独立的存在，不同的人，不同的角度会有不同的感受：或许在某些方面很突出、或许在某些方面存在不足。包容的存在，对自身而言未尝不是一种新的尝试。
从语言角度来说，英语的普及流行只能代表当前的一种趋势。至于50年、100年以后，谁又能保证英语的全球化或者消亡。或许到那时，不得不学习汉语，也未尝不是一种可能。
I think the fallacy lies within the fact that even though one could possibly read or even understand English, specifically English for the trade (i.e. English for doctors, or engineers, or businesspeople, etc.), one does not necessarily have to communicate in it to be a good doctor of WESTERN medicine. I agree with her that it is important to be able to read medical journals b/c despite the dismal state of US healthcare, the US still has some of the most cutting edge medical technology on earth.
People need to stop arguing over inconsequential issue relating to this: Eastern vs. Western medicine, health care vs. medical research – it all comes down to the fact that the man didn’t speak ANY English at all, medical or otherwise. How is it that this doctor is in such a highly rated hospital yet he obviously is not being kept in the loop about the latest medical advances? At that point, it’s no longer about a cranky laowai – Chinese people that go to this Chinese hospital are being cheated b/c the doctor is not up to par w/ the rest of the international medical community.
@Chinaamerican
How can be sure that “famous doctor” is not “in the loop”? There’s no medical magazines in China? There’s no medical seminars in China? There’s no visiting professors in China? Just reading a magazines doesn’t make doctor better doctor. In many countries, new medical procedures must be approved by medical authority. I’m not sure that general practice are developing as fast as web development, so physicians must keep the pace. Good physician should recognize seriousness of illness, should patient go to specialist or not.
Number of conditions that can be treated by physicians didn’t change. Treatment of hard cases are changed. “Famous doctor” are not required to knew anything about breakthroughs in endocrinology of intestinal organs, but he must recognize condition that needs expertize of endocrinologist.
End.
@krdr
I can’t speak for the medical community because I am not sure about the Chinese translated text. In IT, however, not being able to read English at a relatively high proficiency level has a drastic effect on your ability to perform your job well – oral communication not necessary, but read technical terms information and books? VITAL. The center of the IT universe is in the US. Almost all new languages, frameworks, technologies, and analysis happens there – not to say there aren’t phenomenal people all over the world some of which without fantastic language skills, but it’s the center. English is, as a result, the center of IT as a communication language – worldwide.
If the medical profession is anything similar – reading a translated text from English to Chinese will likely introduce some problems. That’s why many good Chinese IT professionals stick to the English text, rather than loose translated Chinese versions which are likely not as accurate – when someone is fuckin with my health, I would pay the extra for someone who has read the text in the language of origin.
That being said – medicine may be different, there are definitely significant medical achievements in many non-english speaking countries and I’m sure a lot of research also, so, this analogy may not be so accurate :)
@krdr
I would echo what Rick has to say. I am sure there are Chinese medical journals but it is not just about reading them, it is also about being published in them (It is a common thing for second rate doctors to get their articles published in journals of different countries in order to pad their resumes/CVs.). It means also being to create some sort of discourse with his colleagues in the medical field, in reference to your comment about visiting professors.
Whether you consider it a sort of cultural imperialism or not, the US is the leader in medical research and I would think that by virtue of being in such a renowned hospital, that doctor should have been able to have at least some vocational grasp of English. Had it been some smaller regional hospital, I would consider the LZ a cantankerous troll but the doctor’s inability to communicate in the lingua franca of his trade has dire consequences for his patients and lowers the standards of the hospital that employs him.
@Rick
IT is not medicine. Medicine has rules and procedures. In Serbia, doctors goes to uni’s then they volunteer, then specializes in the specific field. After that they are doctors. Some of them doesn’t know word of English. After that, Ministry of health organizes obligatory programs of permanent education (seminars, courses, conferences, etc.). Still, some doctors doesn’t learn any word of English. Then, some visiting doctors comes here, he speaks in his/hers mother language, and it is translated by translator. Why? Not all doctors have same knowledge of all foreign languages. It is better to have good translation, than misunderstand some words.
In medicine, blogs with advices: “Put Lemon Acid on Aspirin, and cold will perish” are F O R B I D E N.
Good friend of mine works in Ulm, Germany. Hers laboratory made a breakthrough in threating AIDS. She is from Serbia. Their work was published on German.
@Chinamerican
1)Latin is lingua franca of medicine.
2) Ask USA ambassador in Serbia, did he had complains on non-English speaking Serbian doctors? Some of them still have good reason to leave USA citizens to die on operation table.
More than 60% of doctors in leading health organization in Serbia doesn’t speaks English (they speak Russian, German, French), but they are great doctors, they show great care and great knowledge.
As small country, some conditions can not be threated here. Patients are sent to other countries (on expense of state). Their doctor doesn’t speaks Serbian, but they are threated well.
@krdr RE: “Good friend of mine works in Ulm, Germany. Hers laboratory made a breakthrough in threating AIDS. She is from Serbia. Their work was published on German.”
Citing a specific example of one person who has a published document regarding a massively studied disease in a language other than English doesn’t hold a huge amount of weight, I’m trying to discern: are you implying that the majority of medical journals, papers, research, and treatment analysis are NOT published in English? Furthermore, are you trying to imply that having a solid grasp of the language that original research documents are published in is NOT an enormous benefit in achieving a ranking amongst “famous” or “top” of a particular field of study? We’re talking about generalities, here, not specific examples or exceptions.
I agree with Chinamerican. Also, I’d like to inform you that..now, ALL DOCTORS MUST have a second language. It’s common for many doctors in northern provinces to take Russian as their second language – afterall, most foreigners in say..heilongjian, are russian. English has, though, gained significant ground as their language of choice. Why has this been made a requirement? I would assume it has been made a requirement because….here it is: Most information communicated on an international scale is not communicated in Chinese!
Serbia isn’t exactly ranked as having fantastic medicare, so I would not expect Serbia’s top doctors to speak English or another language. Do you think a hospital in San Diego (USA) would hire a doctor who does not speak Spanish? Only in *exceptional* cases.
Overall, hallow argument.
@Rick and Chinamerica
I retreat.
To be famous doctor speaking English is essential, not how good doctor you are.
@Rick
Serbia isn’t exactly ranked as having fantastic medicare, so I would not expect Serbia’s top doctors to speak English or another language.
So, you’ve been in Serbia? You visiting our doctors? You know that in our elementary schools two languages are must? It is true that Serbian hospitals are not in great conditions, as some of them was bombed by cluster bombs, but that’s other story.
About San Diego: In metro area, there’s 1,3 million people, 300 000 of them are Hispano:
About Shanghai: 19 million in metro area, 33 000 foreigners.
Not a very well structured article. But I think what the writer is trying to promote is the argument that it is intrinsically difficult for non-English speaking Doctors to keep up with the advances in modern medicine.
This entire website is stupid. Leave China alone, do something good with your life. This guy is a doctor, not a translator. He’s already went through alot of stress learning about medicene to help people in HIS country! You were unable to describe how your pain or whatever problem you had felt in Chinese so you described it in english. How stupid can this get? Your in another country that doesnt have english as a first language, you expect every person to understand english? Go die.
A doctor in China usually has an educational background of university or higher. In this case, he should have learnt English for more than ten years during which a lot of exams had been successfully passed. However, it is commonplace that people with such educational backgroud still lack the ability to speak English. So the problem must be rooted in the failure of language education in China instead of the certain doctor being silly.
This Chinese Dr spoke English.
http://newzeelend.wordpress.com/2008/10/05/chinese-doctor-killed-in-new-zealand/
sunset- You are grossly misinformed as to the situation.
In Shanghai at the famous hospitals you may be right, you may have a point and some of the doctors actually speak passable English.
MOST of China does NOT have English speaking doctors….and a LOT of China doesn’t even have doctors with any real base in scientific/modern medicine.
I recently was at the international clinic at the 中日友好医院 in Beijing, where even there the doctors did not speak English. Fine, great, I spoke Chinese to them, because they didn’t speak English, and was charged 1000 RMB for a 20 minute consultation (muscle fatigue in the back with nerve interference, can’t do anything, told me to exercise more) and an x-ray. What really struck me was the ‘holy shit’ look on the nurses’ faces as they reacted to the cashier telling me how much it would be. Basically the same kind of price as what they charge at United Family, except there they truly do speak English.
Before the current economic boom, China looks towards the Russian for many of their modern medicine. The majority of scientific literature is in English. However, Russia and France do have considerable knowledge of modern Medicine.
It is a necessity to have a reading knowledge of English to get by these days with developments of the latest health science. I think China needs to catch up and the old timers probably won’t bother to improve their language skills because in the next decade or so, they probably retire and bugger off to Qingdao.
The caption of the first picture would read.
“Local doctor tells laowai patient that it is important to put the lotus root up the anus after boiling and not before. That way the body heat will not be tempted to escape into the organ of the left daing daing.”
The second picture reads.
“Local Chinese nurse notices after many years of schooling in China’s highest medical universities that the patient is not Chinese and is actually black.”
Third picture,
“Dr, Fang instructs his students how to notice lung cancer in an x-ray, and asks for a smoke from a second year student”
@Terence
You got fucked over. In China – you always pay before you ‘get’, at least, that’s how it should work at hospitals here – certainly every one I know of. Before I, say, pay for medicine, I want to see the package and the latin foundation name of everything I’m getting – usually they write down ridiculous amounts of medicines for a simple ailment and can really gouge you on the prices. After seeing everything they suggest, and looking at the amounts and pricing, sometimes will do a quick lookup on the items I’m not totally familiar with and end up cutting out some often overpriced and unnecessary results from the diagnosis.
Suggest not going ahead and nodding along with the ‘ya i’ll pay that’ and realizing that medicine here is a business more than most other places, and the doctors charge a (usually) very low fee because they can gouge you on their diagnosis.
I agree with Rick in China because I have experienced the same thing exactly.
As with everything in China, one should always expect the unexpected. Don’t be appalled at the realities here. A famous Chinese doctor in China who does NOT speak English isn’t so hard to fathom considering where you are.
Shanghai isn’t as cosmopolitan as it appears. The education system is first and foremost in Chinese. English is not a mandatory language either.
For all your complaints there are similar examples in other countries of doctors who don’t speak English. You just need to look.
Absolutely waste of time discussing this topic. Nuff said
So what if he cant speak english? Does all good doctor needs to be able to speak English?
I agree with Ron ,and what’s more, do as rome does.
These guys are all ok with doctors not knowing Chinese…
until they get hit by a bus in a country like Cambodia, run to the hospital using the few words of English they know trying to explain their condition, and realize no one can understand them.
You believe English will cure your pain and isckness ? Then go look for a English student and not a non English speaking doctor. This is China!
I think within our lifetime the reverse will happen…
“What? You mean to tell me a doctor in the US can’t speak a word of Chinese? How could this be?”
99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 % of American doctors don’t speak Chinese, let alone knowing Medical terms in Chinese.
How arrogant!
ACCORDING TO BITS STATISTIC, NOT ONE MEDICAL DOCTOR IN AMERICA IS CHINESE. when we did rounds in a Chinese hospital last September, the attending there spoke English the entire time, albeit with a bit of accent, but it was very clear what he was saying.
There is no reason why a middle-aged Chinese man should be expected to know English, even if they are a famous doctor. English is extremely difficult to learn for Chinese people and most middle-aged Chinese people understandably don’t know a word of it.
It is perfectly possible I’m sure to become a good doctor reading only Chinese textbooks. If the guy writing this is Chinese, then why couldn’t they just speak Chinese? O r does it make them feel superior to speak English?
With the normal way how English is taught in Chinese schools,
1. it is likely you learn the language for ten years and still can’t use it.
2. you find that it is much easier to read English than to speak it. In China, 哑巴英语(Mute English) is the common case instead of exceptions. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mute_English for more information.)
I know little about the medical area. But AFAIK, even in areas like software development, you can easily see lots of(if not majority of) developers who solely rely on books/articles written or translated by other Chinese. It is true that those good one can read English, but it is not necessarily that they can speak English with you.
One does not need to speak a certain language to be good at any particular trade or skill, including medicine. I don’t think that was the issue being brought up by the Original Poster either. The issue he seemed to imply was whether Chinese doctors are really being the best they can be or maintaining the actual highest level of quality they possibly can without the ability to communicate in English.
Obviously, without English, his ability to study the latest ADVANCES would be limited by the information available in Chinese. Therefore, I think the subsequent poll asks an entirely inappropriate question.
The poll should not ask, “Is it necessary for those who study medicine to understand English?” Better questions would be, “Are doctors who don’t speak English actually reaching their full potential? Are doctors who can’t read English documents maintaining the highest level of quality?”
Don’t get me wrong, Chinese medicine has been around for a long time. Having received treatments via these methods, I can attest that the results can be quite good. However, perhaps the best results could be attained from doctors very knowledgeable with the best methods from both types of medical practices. Can a doctor who doesn’t speak English really be trusted to know the best Western medical procedures? To deny that Western medicine is useful would be ludicrous. Without it, Smallpox would have wiped most of us from the planet already. So are non-English speakers really being responsible? Are they being the best they can be or are they limiting themselves unnecessarily due to laziness? Do they think they are simply “good enough”? Do they care about helping people to the fullest extent or do they just care about making a living?
Comment on NetEase: “The chairman of our People’s Republic [does] not understand English; do you think he cannot keep up with the world?”
Unfortunately, I think that without various assistants and translators, he’d be totally lost. No man (or country) in today’s world is an island. It’s been tried, but always with disastrous results. Your chairman has plenty of people employed who do the things he is not capable of doing himself. I’m sure they appreciate the opportunity for employment though. :)
My first ever visit to a chinese hospital-I was there for a soar throat…(The school I was teaching at made me go) and the doctor, no joking, pulled out a cigarette and we sat around smoking in the office before he checked my throat. I laughed and laughed… years later, I wonder why he didnt break out the baijiu as well. Hahahahahahahah China ROCKS!!
am not a chinese person person nor an english person but in my country we ensure that we have two to three international language. Englsih is complusory in my country due to its global position, Chinese also ia a fine language and nobody who is saying Chinese people to abandon their language and go for Englsih but it crucial to perfect your English a number of things are passing China if u dont watch that. otherwise u will always remain to ape forever but with English and Chinese hand in hand u can be far.