From Tianya, “Shanghai International Studies University: Japanese students and Chinese students fought violently” (no longer accessible):
At present, the police, including the special police present, have already dispatched 10 police vehicles to maintain order, and the gathered crowd has just dispersed.
On October 20, 2008, about 10 P.M., over ten Japanese students were getting drunk and causing a disturbance in the school square. Their noise could be heard from every corner of the campus, which made the boys living on the 9th floor of the boy’s dormitory extremely upset. To protest against the Japanese, the 9th floor students sprinkled some water on the Japanese, resulting in the ten Japanese directly charging into the dorm to beat the two boys so severely that they had to be sent to the hospital.
After the beating, the 10 Japanese immediately fled the dorm room, and the students who heard the news immediately rushed downstairs to confront the Japanese students. At the time, the situation was chaotic. The police immediately dispatched special police to escort and evacuate over 10 Japanese from the school. Not only was the square swarming with patriotic students, I estimate there were approximately several hundred people. Over 10 police vehicles came one by one to maintain order, with everyone standing around watching each other for about 20 minutes.
Under the direction of several students, the students sang the national anthem, marching to the international guest house [the dormitory for international/foreign/study abroad students] to continue their protest against Japanese people. However, the police blocked off the entrance to the international guest house. At this time, we could see Koreans also hanging up their Korean flag. As the student protests increased, there were some foreigners upstairs in the international guest house (it was too dark to see clearly) throwing glass bottles down, causing the situation to escalate…only after the person in charge of the school immediately put forward that the first three students who knew what happened come forth and communicate with the Japanese did the university students calm down and behave themselves.
Over 2 hours later, the matter finally quiet down…at the time there were people using cameras and video cameras to film, which will probably be uploaded onto the internet soon.
Note: The above translated post was reformatted from the original into separate paragraphs. When this incident happened, many BBS forums quickly deleted every post. Originally, I had decided not to do it because it was impossible to get any information and comments before it was deleted. However, the above original post and following comments from different BBS were available for awhile the next day for me to gather the information. Other netizens and students give more details in the comments. – Fauna.
Comments from Tianya (no longer accessible):
Fuck, throwing a fit on China’s own territory, they must be tired of living…
From the school BBS:
First of all, it happened in Shanghai. Every one knows that Shanghai people can argue until their nose touch but they will not physically fight. Second, in our kind of our humanities school, there are naturally only about two and a half boys, so for them to be surround and fight a Japanese person was not easy as it is!! As such, this situation really let me see things in a new light!!~
What had happened is this: Yesterday, October 20, 2008, I heard a group of Japanese and Koreans being really loud in the sunken school square as I was returning at 10 p.m. However, I did not think much about it, because I am already used to it. I do not know what they are always so happy about but every week there are a few days where this group of little Japanese [小日本 is a little derogatory] are messing around, singing and dancing.
It was getting very late and it was still very noisy even after midnight. It turns out they were brazenly barbecuing on the square downstairs!! The boys on the 9th floor were now unhappy, so they asked them to not be so loud, that people upstairs were resting. But they would not listen and continued making a lot of noise downstairs! One of the chivalrous boys on the 9th floor could not take it anymore, and on behalf of the Chinese people, he threw he threw an angry beer bottle down. The Japanese devils flew off the handle [became pissed], daring to go up our dorms to the 9th floor and beating up our compatriot, and then going back down to continue eating and drinking~!
This definitely pissed off us schoolmates and a group of us furiously went down and surrounded that group of Japanese people…and in the end…
We are peace-loving Chinese people, who definitely do not support violence. However, the arrogance of this group of Japanese was plain to see. I am not saying that all Japanese, but most of them have poor characters, everyday riding their Harley-Davidson motorcycles showing off their engines, hurting my ears every time they pass by, drinking and causing trouble, skipping classes (I have seen their attendance forms. There are 20 students in the class, all the Japanese are absent almost every class, the type who only go to 2 or 3 classes the whole semester), each and every one of the boys wearing eyeliner, they are just not very likable.
The Sichuan earthquake had given me some good feelings with regards to the Japanese, but this incident made once again despise young Japanese scum to the highest degree. I had already read reports about our fellow Chinese students being insulted while studying in Japan, This group of Japanese deserved to suffer in China, so this incident will also let them babies have a taste what it is like to be bullied outside of their country, and besides it was them who were wrong! They absolutely deserved to be beaten!!
I will also politely advise those Japanese kids who went upstairs to attack others: You should have thought carefully about where the fuck you guys were before going upstairs. If you are coming here to study, then be honest students, do not cause trouble, and Japanese people especially should not cause trouble in China.
I had looked upon these international students with welcoming/friendly eyes. I thought no matter if they are Japanese or Korean, them coming to China must be because they love China, because they love Shanghai. It was only until last year that I realized they came to China just for the price difference [because it is cheaper to live in China]!! No matter how expensive Shanghai is, it is not as expensive as their own country. This group of useless children [who waste their family's fortune] go to the bars drinking every day, and our school even has someone who drives a Benz sports car! They have gotten to a point where I can no longer look at them.
Also, the character of those Shanghai International Studies University international students? What character? Running red lights, accosting girls, speeding try to accost girls. When I was at Häagen-Dazs, there was even someone who would try to leave without paying. Last year, there was even someone who was kicked out of school for threatening people!
In contrast, some international students from poor countries have very good character. Their family financial situations are not very good, and the living standards in their countries are bad, so they usually all come on Chinese government scholarships. These students from Nepal, Nigeria and Venezuela are all much better than those from developed countries. One could learn nothing talking with those from developed countries. They can only teach you how to say “FUCK” in different languages! So uninteresting~
I am going to stop complaining here. All in all, I applaud those the two and half boys! Even though the Japanese were being loud, it was not right for us to throw the beer bottles~ But if they beat our schoolmates, you guys surrounding them and beating them up was good! We cannot let us Chinese people be bullied by foreigners in our own country!! Next time something like this happens, call me. MLGBD~ Beat to death those damn little Japanese!!!
PS. I also heard this story from others [hearsay], so some details may not be true, but me hearing them being noisy is true, that the Japanese behave poorly on campus is true, and that two of our schoolmates were beaten is true! ~Damn little Japanese, this business is not finished~
Dog fucked, should they not at least be detained for attacking people?! It is not as if they are embassy members, there have no diplomatic immunity.
Fuck, this bitch school dares to protect the Japanese~~~
Why did the special police [SWAT?] escort the little Japanese who attacked other people out? What kind of logic is this??
Why were the Korean and other international students who participated in causing trouble not held responsible?
Why not give the Chinese students an explanation? Dammit, we can forget about us being bullied outside of our country, but we have to put up with being bullied in our own country too???
There must be a reasonable explanation…
Why!?!?! In our country, at our school, there can actually be such arrogant foreigners???
Dammit, what logic is this?? Are our students so hopeless, or is it a problem with our leadership??
Students~~~Fighting people requires tactics~~~
With hundreds of you surrounding them, of course they have to dispatch the police…
Wait for this to pass, and everyone stay still. Just ten of you is enough to beat those few Japanese. As long as they are in school, there will be opportunities to teach them a lesson. Avoid this getting out of control.
Kill all Japanese pigs! [x12]
Bring attention to what the attackers look like so the entire school can recognize them as being wanted. Anytime those bastards dare show their face, they will be beaten and…
So angry!! So speechless!!
Ten Japanese dare charge into the boys dorm to beat people? What the hell were the other Chinese students present doing? Is this still a boy’s dorm, with everyone else only knowing how to stand by watching Japanese people beat Chinese people…?
Forget about the police, I don’t know what to say about Chinese police protecting foreigners like this.
After 100-200 years, after so many revolutions, after sacrificing millions of people, Chinese people are still second-class citizens on their own land.
If those who were beaten were Han students [Han is the Chinese ethnic majority], this matter would be left unresolved.
I wrote this here to be an proof of what I had predicted.
You motherfucker, would it kill you to not push for national secession at this time?
Why is China’s police so mean to the Chinese, but act like grandsons when encountering foreigners?
You really don’t understand
It is only because they are in China that they throw a fit.
Put them in the United States or Russia,
the Japanese would be as well-behaved as grandsons.
Police comrades, normally I never see you as active as you were last night…I say, could you have simply arrived just a little later?
Those two Chinese students are pretty useless/cowardly. This matter has 80-90% chance of being unresolved…
Seeing that so many schoolmates all posted…I will also write about what I saw and heard…
Last night around 9-10pm, the three of us were in our room watching “Flood.” After watching half of it, the electricity stopped, but was restored quickly. However, I no longer wanted to watch, so I copied the “KONAN #12″ from my PSP to my computer and unexpectedly it required half an hour. Bored, I walked out onto the balcony to take a look.
I saw a group of little Japanese downstairs making noise, even singing “happy birthday” but their English was lousy…
Our room has a flashlight…very powerful…can shine very far…and just as I was about to shine them, someone downstairs on the 4th or 5th floor threw a water bottle at them.
The Japanese people started screaming, “if you have the guts, come down.” A brother on the 9th floor started to fight back. The funniest thing was that the Japanese screamed a four word Japanese phrase, we did not understand, and the 9th floor responded with “fuck your mother’s cunt,” which was also four words.
Then the Japanese people started cursing, “fucking China.”
The brothers upstairs responded, “don’t worry, China still has Taiwan, this is the mainland.” Everyone on the balconies were 囧 jiong…
Then the arguing became more and more intense. Four Japanese guys charged up, supposedly brought up by a traitor who entered school in 07 studying German, wearing red clothes, yellow hair, wears glasses. Whether this information is accurate needs to be confirmed. We all figured that even just one floor of us could easily crush them so we did not think much about it.
Then the 10 something Japanese downstairs charged towards the dorms. At this time, I heard the loud noise of a door being kicked and hit. We realized we need to go up to help our own compatriots.
Very quickly the 9th floor was filled with people.
First were 7-8 little Japanese charged up to the 9th floor, indiscriminately attacking any Chinese they say. They did not even ask if they were the person who was just arguing with them. Downstairs came up two brave Chinese guys, bringing with them two metal tubes. 2 against 8. The security guard came to stop the fight and the little Japanese even started attacking the security guard along with the other Chinese students. The security guard’s clothes were torn.
When the little Japanese saw that more and more of us were coming, they hid into the elevator. Security guard uncle said, “There is nothing we can do in the school. I cannot let you guys fight. If we were out in society fighting, I would definitely help you guys.” After seeing the elevator head down, all of us ran down the stairs to the first floor.
But now there were too many people, and we could not distinguish who was Japanese. At this point, a little Japanese shouted, “Chinese dogs, if you have the guts, come.” I did not see clearly who shouted it, I only knew from which direction it came from. Soon we found the group of Japanese people.
We all surrounded them. At this time, 120 and 110 [emergency medical and police numbers] have all already arrived. 120 took our two injured Chinese schoolmates back to the hospital. 110 protected the Japanese people, keeping us outside.
Just like this, 4-5 police cars came and escorted the little Japanese away. One Japanese who had drank too much was also sent to the hospital.
Throughout all of this we were screaming fuck Japan, fuck your mothers, etc…the entire school was very magnificent…I estimate over 80% of the guys had come downstairs…
Seeing as how they did not even give a single apology, and were so arrogant, students who could not accept the situation shouted, “Rush the international guest house!”
So the big team [crowd] again changed to rushing the international guest house.
People started yelling, fuck Japan, little Japanese, fuck your mother, etc. One by one the lights in the international guest house flickered on.
There were foreigners upstairs taking pictures (this was indeed embarrassing), and people from other countries were sticking their country’s flags on their windows, afraid we would charge up there and accidentally cause them harm.
Then a water bottle flew down.
The crowd moved back to the square behind the fountain.
Then a glass cup flew down and shattered right on my foot. Fortunately, there was no injury. Had it hit my head, I would have gone and caused problems. And then the conflict would only get worse.
Well done, Shanghai students!!
ZF, stop paying so much respect to foreign beasts, this is not the late Qing Dynasty! This is the new China’s territory!! You must do something!!!
Fuck! Embarrassing! If those Japanese dared to do that in our school, they would have long ago been sent to the hospital!
From the school BBS:
Fellow students, hello! I am Hou Wang from the Department of German, and my dorm room is A911. I witnessed the entire incident that moved so many people’s hearts. What fellow student, “Mantou”, had posted above already covers most of it. I just want to add some details:
1. When the little Japanese rushed into our dorm rooms, they actually brought weapons with them, which were cooking pot lids. I thought a bunch of Japanese chefs had rushed up. Because our room A911 is right across from the elevator, that group of Japanese dogs starting hitting our door first. Actually they had hit every door on the left side of 9th floor. They were shouting, “FUCK CHINA” while banging on the doors. Because I was busy playing WOW, I didn’t open the door right away. By the time I had opened the door, the Japanese dogs had already started biting [attacking] people. By the time us brothers were about to beat them up, we were held back by the security guards. Actually, quite a few of us brothers still got in quite a few kicks. Ding! They ran away like wild dogs. (But there was one crazy dog that still did not learn his lesson. Us brothers were not happy, so we chased him down the stairs to the first floor.)
2. When we were in the front of the international guest house, there were actually already many journalists who had arrived. Their are very nimble! But that group of security guards would not open the door. At this moment, a man with a strong northeastern accent rushed over and said to the security guard, “You motherfuckers, open the door!” The security guard wanted to be “niu bi” and loudly replied, “Don’t even think about causing trouble!” The northeastern man was not happy, and pointed at the security guard’s nose yelling “Fuck your mother, are you a Chinese person or not?” The security guard immediately withered. With nothing to say, he could only allow himself to be painfully told off by the northeastern man. The security guard could only tuck tail and run away.
3. When we were singing the national anthem, many Chinese compatriots loudly signed that it was the first time seeing so many clothes-wearing Japanese dogs. I agreed with them. The Japanese dogs have strange values of sex. If it is not abusive, then it is a group of people. I heard they broke the 500 people having sex in one place Guinness world record. You tell me what difference this is with dogs.
4. Regarding the traitor problem. As a student of the Department of German, I feel disgraced, very disgraced. How can there be this kind of schoolmate, living with dogs?
Finally I want to declare that everything written above is the truth, nothing fabricated. There may be some discrepancies with some details, but the main part about the incident is correct.
A bunch of stupid kids. The next time something like this happens, directly go beat them up. Once the police come, nothing can be done.
Do not gather around and stupidly sing the national anthem. Has this country ever loved you? All of the violent machines in this country are only used against you.
This is so Shanghai. If this was in the Northeast, however many little Japanese dared to enter the guy’s dorms vertically would have to come out horizontally!
Are there actually people who are saying good things about that Shanghai group of students??? I think they are just a bunch of trash…they have no brains nor guts. If they had the guts, those few police and security guards would not have been able to hold them back when the fight started. They were holding you back because doing so is what feeds them, it is merely a formality, so if there is a problem in their department later it is easier for them to say they tried, but several men held them back. If several guys rushed hard, I am sure they would not really make it difficult for you…
If you do no have guts but have brains, that is okay too. If you are afraid of being in public, just get 50-60 guys, do not be nervous, and pretend as if there is nothing to trick the little Japanese to come out, go to a remote place, beat them up, and then leave. Do not make a big fuss, the bigger it is, the harder it is to do something, and then you guy will not have a fight. In the end, this way is also easier for the school to deal with, they can pretend it was just an ordinary fight between students.
Now they can only get 200-300 people to go surround the international guest house, and sing the national anthem, and dragging in the country’s glory? Now the matter has risen to the political level, and now the government needs to deal with it, and in the end there will be no outcome. In the public opinion, the little Japanese became the weak and innocent party. Aside from yelling “fuck” to make ourselves feel better, we will not even be able to touch the little Japanese’s fingers [will not get a chance to beat them up]…and we are still being ostentatious? And still think it is a good idea to sing the national anthem?? No ability, embarrassed yourselves, and you still want to make a fool of yourselves…and you blame the JC for not letting you guys enter the international guest house? The JC’s attitude is the same as the government’s attitude. If their brains are functioning normally, of course they wouldn’t let you guys pass.
With this becoming so big…I bet if those little Japanese’s brains are still working, they will definitely and immediately let the embassy handle this, and then return to their country. You think they would come back to school to wait for your guys’ revenge?? Take a shower and go to bed.
I am outraged!! People who deserve the most blame are those few Japanese people, but rather those Chinese students who just stood around enthusiastically watching but didn’t have the courage to do anything! Really fucking embarrassing!!! Not helping their own compatriots who were being beaten by the Japanese, but still pretending to care by singing the national anthem!!! Really pisses me off!!! If this was outside the country and there were no Chinese to help out, then fine, but this was in a campus in China!!! And it was a boy’s dormitory!!! All of the men in that building are fucking not men, only having the ability to shout/argue, really sickens me to death!!! I don’t blame those students who got beat for not being able to fight back, after all they were just students, but that was one entire building of Chinese people!!!
The “FF” [a pun on "angry youth" that means "angry shit"] above, stop “pretending you could have done this better.” When it really happens, you guys would not be much better. Heh heh, as God as my witness, I have seen this kind of thing twice. Han fighting Uighur, Chinese students fought Japanese students, and if you dare make it a big incident, beating those people [Uighurs and Japanese], you will immediately experience the kungfu of our country’s riot police’s. They can beat you so hard that your mom will not recognize you. Those FF who don’t believe me can go try, who does not know how to pretend to be cooll on the internet?
Fuck. What were you guys thinking? Go and beat them first, then talk. In fact, everyone go up!!! I can’t believe you let them run away. An apology [from them] is fucking useless.
Comments on PCPop:
Beat the Japanese dogs to death, then kill the Koreans. There is no excuse for them to be throwing fits on Chinese people’s land.
USA says: Fuck, I will beat whoever I want
Russia says: Fuck, I will beat whoever criticizes me
China says: Hello everyone, whoever hits me, I will condemn and protest.
They actually allowed the little Japanese to attack people and then escape? If this thing happened in my school, the little Japanese would all have to be carried out! This school’s [Shanghai International Studies University] students are too worthless!
This group of dog-fucked [Japanese], better not let me see them. I am an expect of San Da [Chinese boxing].
Comments from Tom:
Useless…a disgrace, such a disgrace…
Rational my ass, rational! They are already bullying us on our doorsteps and you still want to talk about what is wrong with China today? Only know how to protest? What use is protesting?
Throwing stuff from upstairs, they deserved getting beat up.
Seeing so many people saying Shanghai students are bad, that they could not beat Japanese people, is truly lamentable. Honestly, I am glad the majority of college students were rational, otherwise, yesterday’s Japanese international students would have already gone to another world. or the Japanese might already died. You guys want people to die, want to take out the Japanese, but at what cost for our country? There are actually people who are saying that student’s rationality is an embarrassment, truly no longer distinguishing right from wrong.
I am a student from Shanghai International Studies University. Even though others don’t think much of us, as a student in this school, I am clear about what happened. But those Japanese international students, they simply are not here to study. The international students in Shanghai University of Finance and Economics across from us came to China to study. What happened this time can only be said to have intensified long-standing conflicts. Plus, they were too arrogant. We are how old, but they are almost 30, and the police still protected them.
Comments from Mop (no longer accessible):
After seeing the pictures, I had yet another type of thought: There are still a lot of people who just like watching the excitement.
Japanese beating Chinese, Chinese singing the national anthem…fuck…what difference is this from being the “sick man of the east?”
Strongly request that these dog-fucked Japanese people be expelled out of China.
Something like this happens and there are still people here scolding their own compatriots?
Does it feel good letting foreigners see this kind of joke!
If you guys are so “niu bi,” go attack the Japanese embassy!
Those who do not support their own compatriots should avoid making sarcastic remarks.
Always discriminating based upon locality…
…have your brains been flooded with water?
Would China being broken into pieces make you all happy!!!
Shanghaiese are fucking well known for having the softest bones in the whole world.
If this had happened in Shenzhen, in the northeast, anywhere but Shanghai…
…could the little Japanese been able to go up to the 9th floor and severely hurt two people before the running away? Fucking Shanghai trash.
Even if you’re a ‘wai di ren,” just staying there too long will infect you…
Today’s Shanghai is the same as it was back when it was colonized…this is my feeling in Shanghai…
But fortunately next month I can finally leave this fucking place…You NB Shanghainese can go lick foreigner assholes.
Those who were not present can stop damn farting here…I go to that school in Hongkou, and participated in the demonstration, and the police vehicles were blocking the door of the international guest house! If you want to rush the hotel, you have to get pass the police first! Moreover, my room was on the fourth floor. When things broke out on the 9th floor, there were no sounds down there. You think we would not want to help? There are some people who unjustly say if this happened where they are, they would do this or that, would you just go ahead and kill Japanese people and not take legal responsibility? It is easy to say, but when you actually encounter it, would you really go up and take out the little Japanese? I can tell you right now that they are still in the international guest house and those of you with big mouths, if you really have the ability, then you can go ahead and get the little Japanese’ heads!
The current Chinese government treats Chinese people like dogs, and treat foreigners like gods. Whenever something happens, the police will definitely first protect the foreigners. Actually, if they were ruthless/hateful and let 1-2 “niubi” foreigners die, then they would no longer dare to bully/take advantage of Chinese people.
Japanese people bow before the Yasukuni Toilet [pun, "shrine" sounds similar to "toilet" in Chinese] every day, and our shitty government only knows how to “sternly but fairly” protest. One word: Inept!
What a good opportunity (to beat Japanese) you had missed. When the Japanese were going up to the 9th floor, what were all the Chinese students doing? Just do those Japanese in, first vent hatred. Then Japan will protest. Negotiate, cut off relations, war breaks out, Japan is destroyed. Everyone who participated will become national heroes.
You guys could not defeat 10 little Japanese. Fuck, did you all grow up eating shit? You could not call more brothers to come help you? Fuck, what have you guys been doing in school? ~You bunch of cowards. Next time you see these Japanese again, just beat them to death. Dammit, just do it to avenge our past compatriots!~
Can those netizens in this post attacking the Shanghainese please remember, a post that was originally attacking Japanese devils, has become a post attacking Shanghainese people because of you guys. Are you guys trying to help the Japanese change the subject? Is attacking Shanghainese more important than attacking Japanese devils? Must Chinese people always fight themselves? Are Chinese people really this ugly? Will Chinese people never unite?
Damn, if this had happened in the Northeast, even our kindergarten kids could drown them to death in piss!! Those deserve-to-be-fucked-by-dogs Japanese bastards…
For something like this to happen in Shanghai means Shanghai people have made Chinese people lose face. Just scolding you is letting you off easy, you useless things. Do you understand that you Shanghainese are not worthy of making China lose face? Not afraid of the whole country scolding the Shanghainese for being cowards, anyone with any worth just go take out [kill] those Japanese who attacked others. Otherwise, any “Shanghai idiots” thinking about raising their heads can just keep on dreaming!
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I wonder where all this hatred comes from…. These people writing on those BBS, are they representative for an average Chinese person?
These Chinese crowd at the event and the BBS writers proved without any doubt they are no better than their Japanese counterparts. They should shake hands because of being so similar.
Well, at least the Chinese police do the sensible thing and break up the fight. Sounds like most of the people commenting would have preferred a lynching. It’s too bad that things have be like this between the Japanese and the Chinese.
2 words: nanjing massacre…
wanker, something that happened soooooooooooo many years ago haha, you think the west hates germans because of something that happened years ago? grow up you complete fucking toss pot
Dumb dwarf Jap shit. People in the west don’t hate Germans because they apologised for what they did. They don’t build a shrine for Hitler and Goebbels and worship them. The leaders don’t visit such shrines because they don’t exist and they don’t glorify their military past. The continually apologise and seek forgiveness but never forgetting the past. In Germany and several neighbouring countries it is illegal to deny the past; people are actually sent to jail for denying the holocaust. Something you dirty Japs could learn from. Not only do you deny what happened in Nanjing but you also deny that you have done anything wrong.
I think the only dumb shit that needs to grow up is yourself. Then again I only feel sorrow for you because your fucked up little backward country tries to rewrite history. Not only are you ignorant of the true facts, you dare to be so open about shit you don’t even understand. What a fucking knob.
Anon,you’re right ! He’s a stupid worm.
It is so easy to beat up these chinese students, most chinese are weak, they can’t fight, most will probably cry when the japanease rushed up to their rooms.
sad isnt??
Not as easy as being fucking pakis
You’re so funny, let me say a same funny thing, it’s so easy to fuck your shit race’s mothers and sisters, and your brothers are too easy to kick at their ass, I do it everyday in your fucking country :-)
It is funny that they had hard time id each other during such ethnic violence. LOL.
damn japs, where the fuck do they think they are? In the long run, the wonu will become increasingly irrelevant, give it 20 more years, Japan is a has-been, it will go down the toilet and be a third rate power it always was in most of history.
Uh….what is wonu?
Why didn’t the students on the 9th floor as them to keep the noise down instead of throwing water out of the building?
when the Japanese students make noises n annoying the people around the dorm , y the other student call up the police or higher authority to cease the troubles that they had caused instead throwing bottles knowing that anyone who is drunk will get pissed off that way . Brother , when u throw that bottle have u ever thought u can handle the consequences ? when u want to pick a fight make sure u know how to fight first or else let the authority handle the matters . We are civilised people , we should go by the law first , force second .
I see this as bad students beating other student , not as a racist point of view .
I don’t understand why those Japanese students didn’t get the living hell beat out of them. If they acted like that at a U.S. University they would have been carried out under sheets. Even if they got away with it that night, people would get them later.
Chinese are too passive. If I was there I’d beat the living shit out of the turnip heads
Not true. I think this was a show of fortitude on the part of the College. Yeah, this was an obnoxious incident, but you can’t say it was because they were Japanese – they were just bad people. Good thing campus police knew the difference and didn’t get all jingo on their ass. If anything else had gone down, it would be immature.
The Japanes studetns got drunk and were not being considerate of others. The Chinese student who threw the bottle down provoked further the Japanese into a drunken rage. The Chinese student crowd who reacted believing they are under attack and humiliated as a whole nation over-reacted under patriotic fervor and turn a small indicent into a riot ready for murder. The police and the guard did their job in separating the parties and keep the peace. Too bad Chinese students start blaming the police and the guards and those who did not escalate into a bigger riot as weak and as traitors.
This sort of behavior is so reminescent of Red Guards mob behavior, or the Boxing Rebellion. Chinese students behaved more like gangsters than university educated students with the intellect to think rather than testerone fueled bodies screaming for blood of the Japanese albeit their provocative behavior. Ultimately, it was hundreds of Chinese against ten Japanese. It is no wonder the police took charge and save the Japanese from the mob.
This is a very disturbing sign which requires asking some serious questions as to whether Chinese can live peacefully with foreigners without resorting to seeing every drunken incident as national humiliation.
You wouldn’t say that if you understood China’s history. You wouldn’t say that if you studied Nanjing, foreign occupation of China, the unfair treaties. No you don’t know jack shit so stfu.
@ Anon – So, were these Japanese students personally responsible for Nanjing, foreign occupation of China, “unfair” treaties, etc….?
By the way, can you elaborate on some of these “unfair” treaties? I’d also like to know if China willingly agreed to these “unfair” treaties.
Thanks.
@ Fike – So, did Anon actually SAY or WRITE that it was those japs who were responsible for Nanjing, etc.?
FYI, China did not willingly agree to those unequal treaties. It was britain, france, germany, japan, the states, etc. that forced them to sign it.
Thanks
okay, all of that is in the past now.
Do not look into the past but look forward to the future.
If all your excuses of why Chinese beat up the Japanese was based on shit that happened a long time ago than your never going to improve you country. Sure Germany was mainly responsible for the Holocaust but do you see every Jewish person in the world insulting the Germans? No. While they still resent them for that they are still able to look past that and get along well with them.
While I do agree that the Japanese getting drunk and loud in the middle of the night was completely unnecessary the Chinese students should of never thrown that bottle at them because no matter what ethnicity you are when your drunk your drunk and provoking rage in them will cause them to do some crazy shit, so they in turn deserved it.
As for the foreign students…well this is something they’re most definably going to share with their friends and family when they get home so way to China and Japanese students you yet again gave foreigners a reason to label you as crazy.
Ann….you’re 100% right….well said!
Ann, who the fuck made you the expert critic here?
Why does Ann’s well-thought out comment make you angry SniperWZ?
And what are you labelling her as an “expert critic”….I didn’t see her refer to herself like that.
Those talking about losing face for not beating the “Japanese-dogs” are losing face not because of that, but by storming the international dorms. Think of all the students from many different country’s living there, fearing for their safety with no idea of what had just happened. The Japanese are the ones that have lost face, greatly, and the Chinese have saved face for having the will power to not completely beating them to death.
I will be studying in Beijing International University in September, its sad to see the stereotyping and hatred that some possess for foreigners. I was poor growing up in the U.S. and even though that may not be on the same level of poverty as many Chinese I know what its like to go with out, and I know what its like to pull my self from the dirt. No matter where you are from, there are people who behave like these Japanese have, and there are people who behave as they should. They will receive a punishment, maybe not on the same level, but their punishment will be their life.
@SniperWZ- you’re one to talk, I can barely read your post. Irrelevant? Third-rate? Seriously? To put it lightly- who started the portable gaming industry?
@Ann- my sentimients exactly. All the sensible people seem to have been branded “traitors” which makes it all the more difficult to stay rational. Oh, and I love how the people in the other cities are calling for killing too.
SniperWZ, you don’t need to curse and belittle people who don’t agree with you. Just because Ann expresses a different opinion (and, might I add, backs it up with analysis and arguments) doesn’t give you the right to shut her up.
And Ann brings up a lot of good points. I too, as a keen observer of China, am troubled and forced to ask how Chinese will deal with nationalism and anger towards other countries. It’s a tendency that all humans exhibits and I wish something that we would rise above.
@ Gaoshan
Actually, at my university, we would let campus security take care of it. Or maybe we’d bring down some booze and join the party.
@ Sniper
Nationality notwithstanding, you think it’s ok to beat up someone who’s obviously drunk? If so, I think many Chinese people would beg to differ.
they should throw some grenade and C4, just to celebrate the 30 year anniversary of reform.
When the Japanese invaded China and committed the horrible acts and atrocities they did in Nanjing, it was because they honestly believed that the Chinese weren’t human and that they were a necessary evil that had to be destroyed in order for Japan to prosper.
70 years on and the roles have reversed. It’s obvious the Chinese don’t view the Japanese as human (xiao ruben guizi), have a strong hatred for the Japanese (ask a reasonably large percentage of Chinese what they think about the Japanese) and are willing to take something quite trivial and turn it into something ridiculous (i.e. a group of drunk Japanese students who are enticed into a drunken rage by a stupid Chinese student, prompting the drunk Japanese to beat up the Chinese and then a while later 120 people are singing the Chinese national anthem).
I’ve struggled to get used to Chinese people’s attitudes and I am finally used to it. I don’t hate Chinese people, I do like them and I try very hard to accept them for the way they are and I am succeeding more and more these days. I think the actions on both sides of this event were pathetic, but could have been handled in a much better way.
That student who threw the bottle was indeed an idiot. Since when is throwing a bottle at drunk people a clever thing??? If you have a problem with a drunk person call the guards to take care of it, don’t be a stupid hero.
The Japanese people going up to beat up the people who threw the bottles were also idiots, given the situation between China and Japan it was pretty much inevitable what would happen. But you also have to take into account the fact that they were drunk. Now I’ve heard tales of Chinese drunken violence, I come from the UK, the land of drunken violence and have seen my fair share of drunken violence and infact the whole world has its fair share of drunken violence. It’s mostly the drunk people’s responsibility for being drunk, but once they are drunk they seem to lose a lot of common sense and so it’s very easy for them to be manipulated by other people. In a way, you could even blame that idiot who threw the bottle for all the violence caused by these drunk Japanese people. But with that I could be wrong, because I don’t know everything about the situation.
Quite why the students had to sing the Chinese national anthem I really don’t know. China complained during the Olympics that everyone was trying to make it too much about politics, but the simple truth is everything in China is about politics. Given the attitude of this brainwashed youth here in China today, perhaps one day China is going to go and commit the same atrocities that Japan did in China 70 years ago….Then maybe the Chinese will feel better whilst everyone else in the world hates them.
Sorry Chinese people, I do like you and I don’t blame you for your attitudes to the Japanese. But I think the way this situation was handled by the students was very immature and the following comments from people encouraging more violence were also very disturbing. It doesn’t sound like China is the peace loving country I usually think it to be and again I feel disappointed by the attitudes of this countries youth. Once in a while I speak to a person of the Chinese youth and they have their own opinions, free from Chinese political brainwash and I feel that China is developing more and more. But when I see things like this it just disappoints me.
@ ann u make a great point and i can’t agree with you more.
With more and more youngsters getting an overdose of nationlism to their heads, they can’t think straight. All of them should take a step back and asses the situation before diving in head first. 100~ ppl taking on 10 japanese… is a bit excessive don’t you think.
“… If this had happened in the Northeast, even our kindergarten kids could drown them to death in piss…”
Those were some stupid BBS comments but pretty hilarious!
Chinese are amongst the noisiest people on Earth. It’s a little suspicious that these students would take such a high degree of umbrage with the noisemakers. I frequently hear some drunken idiot outside my apartment in Xian howling at the moon for no reason.
And car alarms suddenly bolting me out of a deep slumber? Don’t even get me started!
The story would be a teensy bit more credible if the Chinese were a quiet, softspoken people. Hell, just taking a call on a cell phone is reason enough to increase the decibles to an uncomfortable level for anyone within earshot. So, knowing what the tendancies of these folks already are like, one must view the incident with a grain of salt.
Sounds just like an Asian nationalistic pride pissing contest perpetrated on both sides by a bunch of spoilt, rich kids. Racist kids at that.
“Chinese are amongst the noisiest people on Earth”.
SO TRUE!!!
That was my first reaction when I read this article…I wondered how friggin’ loud do you actually need to be to annoy Chinese people? That seems IMPOSSIBLE to me!
And I am speaking from 3 years experience in China!
The best comparison to this is if a bunch of nazi’s went to an Israeli Dorm and beat people up, because that’s how the japanese treated us in ww2. The hate isnt necessarily against foreigners more because they’re just Japanese.
they are asia’s nazis
^.^
I’ll never believe that Japanese started a fight in the first place. Really, have you ever seen Japanese students fighting? They are the most peaceful of all international students. They were probably drunk and loud, but fighting? I really doubt that. And I don’t believe they went up to chinese students dormitory if it wasn’t a female’s one either ;). The whole story sounds fake. Everyone who was an international student in Shanghai will tell you that.
Yeah, right. A story made up by 300 individuals (+ police) who have witnessed it. Oh please, this is not CNN.
Very sad indeed. I agree with Vic Vic on one point: The Japanese I know are very peaceful people. I think many posters here have forgotten that it was a group of Koreans and Japanese that were partying (many Koreans hate the Japanese more than the Chinese, so go figure). Koreans are known to be quite violent. In dong bei, (North Eastern China) many Koreans or Korean minority people try to pass themselves off as Han Chinese. They even have the fake IDs. They are the violent ones here. They also represent the biggest black society (mafia) group here. I would not focus all the attention on the Japanese students. And the Chinese student who threw the first bottle was the one who truly started it all. Yes Chinese are noisy, and I never hear them complain to other Chinese causing a racket. Nuff said.
“This sort of behavior is so reminescent of Red Guards mob behavior, or the Boxing Rebellion.”
How do equate a few scuffles and a large spectator crowd taking pictures with red guard mobs? lol
Yup.
Nope.
@PZhang: The comparison would have to be “Germans” not “Nazis” – and then it’s still completely fucked. The Japanese students weren’t racially motivated in their beating – they were drunk and pissed off for having water thrown on them (sprinkled, my left nut).
@ gweilo Ryan : yeah, the japs were drunk and deserved to be beat. By the way, if you do like those japies, why don’t you go to those webpages talking about their shits ? Why you’re here reading in this website talking about China ? You’re quite stupid ass.
@pzhang, don’t worry about foreigners trying to understand our perspectives, in the end, we don’t care for it. The ultimate destruction of the wonu will take some time, Han Wudi did not exterminate the Xiongnu for decades, and it was only his descendants who finally completed his task. Enemies of China in the end only meet one fate, from the Nanman, Dongyi, Xirong, Beidi, to the Xiongnu, Mongols, Manchus, no one speaks of them now, except in history class and museums. We’ll have a grand memorial for the Wonu after the task is completed…
dude, its not a nice comment
racist!
We dont hate foreigners, but most of our Chinese hate Japanese, even if young people, maybe because all the stories we heard about how the Japanese hurt Chinese people from the old people , TV and so on…
BTW: the story is true.
So how do “your Chinese” reconcile their ‘hatred’ for Japan while purchasing massive amounts of Japanese electronics?
I have heard so many Chinese people bitch and moan about the Japanese (and, in my opinion, part of this stems from jealousy but Chinese people will never admit this) while owning a sony psp, japanese camera, etc.
If I claimed to hate a country, Japan in this case, I would not buy a Toyota!!
Does this seem strange to anyone else?
Seriously, get the fuck outta here of this website will you. You’re a fucking flamer and chinese-hater. I have read many posts from you, you’re just as fucked up as those japanese people. What the fuck has buying japanese goods to do with this? SERIOUSLY? What the fuck? Huh? Why do you wear MADE IN CHINA clothes and use MADE IN CHINA goods? Huh? Most of the japanese electronics are nowadays produced in china anyway so just STFU, okay?
Almost everyone wears “Made in China” clothes. Really you’d be hard pressed to find anything not made in China. Also you need to calm down. That that person made did not need to be taken so seriously.
I think that despite the beligerance of the Japanese students it doesn’t justify throwing a bottle from the dorm at them. This is provoking a potential fight and the action there becomes tangible instead of just ‘words and rawkus’. Like any situation, if some people are causing rawkus but not harming anyone then its best to confront them in a civilized manner (ask them or ask the security guard to do it for you). However by initiating contact or throwing something that is close to comfort it can create something trivial into a tragedy. I know that if I was drunk and lacked some common sense (at the time) and feel threatened by something ‘real’ thrown at me I would be looking for the ‘thrower’ myself.
Don’t stir shit up if you can’t back it up and its a plain joke to see hundreds of students singing the national anthem and walking towards the International building (after the fight instead of helping their ‘compatriots’ during the attack) The fact that the building has no correlations with the situation makes it a target of emotional hindsight and a target for ’saving’ face in the sake of nationalism.
The security and police did the right thing by blocking the Chinese students. What the Japanese students did was wrong but it makes the Chinese look no better if they took the law upon their own hands and exact vengence that’s beyond their own jurisdiction.
If there was further violence and it got out to the foreign media it would just paint yet another negative picture about China and there’s been enough of that as it is.
Some people let all that pride get to them. Sometimes it takes more courage to back out of a potential explosive situation than to give in to the other side’s provocation. It just makes you no better than they are.
“People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?”
The fact that the building has no correlations with the situation makes it a target of emotional hindsight and a target for ’saving’ face in the sake of nationalism.
I ment to say “should not make it a target of……..” my mistake.
SniperWZ: What you wrote about “in the end, we don’t care for it” shows absolute arrogance and gives you no credibility to debate this matter but rather brands you as a shit stirrer yourself.
sorry to not be on topic, but this comment just strikes me oddly…
@ Sniper
I assume you’re a business professional? You really believe the Japanese economy will become irrelevant within our lifetime? Their debt to assett ratio is better than almost any other nation, their banking system has corrected itself after it’s own fuck-ups in the past decades and are now more secure and conservative than most nations of the world and they’re the most innovative creators alongside only maybe the Germans. They may become irrelevant, (a twenty year prediction is usually as accurate as pissing into a headwind.), but first China will have to start creating instead of just manufacturing other countries innovations. For example, does anyone really see China’s automotive industry overtaking Honda or Toyota on safety foremost, or anything else?
Young people in China grew up watching movies about mindless, evil and bloodthirsty Japanese soilders killing brave, good and innocent Chinese.
Japanese people have every reason to believe that they are a race better than Chinese.
Stop these stupid reasonings, but rather stand in their shoes to understand them.
In the end, we are all fucked!
i dont know about those movies since those movies are typically too bloody not to be banned nowadays, u know? maybe your comment would hold a decade ago?
some older generations watched japanese soldiers kill their family, friends and take away everything they had. not on movies.
@Truth Hurtz, don’t care what you think.
@bb – correct, though investment banking/capital markets is pretty much dead right now;
Japan is a very important part of the global economy today, but its role is replaceable and it’s relevance is already diminishing since the 1990’s. Their financial system is in better shape than the U.S. today, but the long term trend as a closed off society with declining birth rates, Japan is in terminal decline, it is becoming a nation of feeble elderly people. People here have criticized China for being hostile to foreigners, but China is far more accomodating and accepting of foreigners in society than Japan.
I agree with you that to overtake Japan, China will need to innovate more instead of exporting to the U.S. and other countries in exchange for dollars. But don’t worry, I can assure you 95% of the people in China my age and soon in positions of political and economic influence share my thoughts and goals. We’ll openly cooperate with Japan when in our interest but keeping in mind the long term goal of its destruction, call it Project Han Wudi.
I recommend to ban commenting under this post. Let hatred stay in the original forum. People on both/many sides can never find out who’s right/wrong in such a sensitive topic.
I also recommend ChinaSmack bloggers keep away from such stupid topics in future.
I think we need to exit the mass-labor model and become an innovative and technology-driven society before talking about other nations’ doom. It goes like this:
primitive – slavery – feudal – industrialized – technological – ???
To be objective, China has just began industrialization, we are one era behind developed nations, you can love China by helping it progress faster, not prattling on internet.
I love the irony. Some of the commentors state something like “how dare they do this on our territory?” but just a few months ago in places like New Zealand and South Korea the Chinese students were acting quite foolishly on someone else’s territory.
Chinese people, based on my experiences, have NO CONCEPT OF IRONY!!
The student just threw a bottle and 2 student got beaten quite harshly, if the posts are to be believed. What do you expect would happen? Is it surprising or not justified that young students, the most easily excited group of people in the world, got angry because foreign student beat their compatriots. Imagine a similar scenario in US, but make the two sides black and white people instead. It would be very reasonable for everyone to act the same way that these Shanghai Chinese student to act if the white guys beat some black guy senseless in this situation, right? Didn’t the Koreans, mostly young students, act similarly when some Chinese students did their thing in the torch relay through Korea? I seem to remember that everyone who was in the “anti-China” camp then expressed understanding for the Korean reaction.
@USTCer
I think this topic is good, Chinasmack shows the reality of China and Chinese people.
There are many BBS talk about this topic although been deleted. This blog shows “Hot internet stories, pictures, & videos in China. What’s popular, scandalous, or shocking that have the Chinese talking.”
I too think this is just a ordinary scuffle, nothing special, let these students sort out themselfs. too bad if you have to drag this incident to the nanjing massacre department.
It seems like a drunk brawl you’d see on any campus with international students; people taking national sides, reminds me of a football match.
@MJ
Comments under the original posts (and some other posts) cannot reflect the main stream of Chinese thinking otherwise there wouldn’t be police’s action. However unfortunately people with reasoning would rather keep in their usual apathy and fenqing(angry youngth) always have highest volume. I suggest turn the volume down to bearable level. Also, topics like this are among those that can encourage people to have opinions based on believes and emotions rather than solid evidences.
@USTCer, do you work for the government censorship office? Why censor speech?
“Also, topics like this are among those that can encourage people to have opinions based on believes and emotions rather than solid evidences.”
- Really? People act on emotions??? That’s shocking.
@ USTCer:
I have to disagree on principle. The foundation of a healthy marketplace of ideas (and democracy) is that people NOT be apathetic. Of course, I, like others, often tired of what we disagree with, but I think it is important in principle that even the ravings of unreasonable still largely be made available so that people CAN see what others think and MIGHT be motivated to counter.
I agree with MJ that this falls within chinaSMACK’s domain, as it represents something that Chinese people on the internet are indeed talking about. I personally prefer more light-hearted subjects like mummies on the train but if a vein in our forehead didn’t violently explode every once in awhile, we might not be able to appreciate said mummies.
I think the police’s action more closely represents a pragmatic government policy than what mainstream Chinese people think. More or less, while I do think a healthy amount of Chinese recognize that not all Japanese people are inherently evil or guilty of what their past ancestors have done, there is a strong, wide-spread, and long-standing resentment towards the Japanese, in part fueled by what the Japanese have done and by the understandable but sometimes unfair preoccupation of such by the Chinese in education, movies, etc.
The marketplace of ideas and democracy requires people to speak out and argue for their perspectives. If people were not aware of fenqing sentiments, there would not be people calling them out on it, rebutting them, chastising them, criticizing them, or coming up with funny puns like “FF.”
Last I checked, even the Chinese government proclaims to be in pursuit of democratic ideals, right?
Wow, such spelling and grammar mistakes above.
tire, not tired.
add “people” after “unreasonable.”
@SniperWZ RE: “but China is far more accomodating and accepting of foreigners in society than Japan.”
Have you been to Japan? I spent time in Tokyo, and a lot of time in China, and can say without a doubt that I believe Japan is a FAR more accepting [of foreigners] country than China, in general. Shanghai and Hong Kong in many respects may be very much on par, but the majority of China is simply…..not, at all, accomodating or accepting. Anyone who does not look normal gets extra attention – “HELLO!!” and stares, comments in Chinese right infront of your face, in elevator together, little kids yelling “老外” to their smiling parents as they prance down the road…maybe it’s cute for a bit, but being singled out gets tiring, and Chinese are fantastic at singling you out both in your face and behind your back not realizing many foreigners here speak fluent Chinese and will have no shame to reply and make them look ridiculous when they comment right beside you to their friends with a shiteating grin. “Look, he has some stubble, he didn’t shave today, do you think it’s sexy? I think it’s just stupid” *laowai turns around* “Look at your hair, you look like a fuckin rooster, next time you comment about my appearance I’ll punch you in the face, what else you want to say?” >> *dumbfounded and embarassed guy*. Think that happens in Japan? I think not.
Rick, I know what you mean about being singled out….that’s the one of the things I can’t stand about China and is one of the reasons I’m going back to America.
From my experience, Japanese people are MUCH MORE polite to foreigners than Chinese are.
A lot of Chinese people have NEVER BEEN TO JAPAN but consider themselves total experts about Japanese people, culture, history, etc…..and then they have the audacity to say that foreigners (including ones who have lived in China) can’t/don’t understand Chinese culture…..absurd.
@Kai
I have to disagree on the strategy of “rebutting them, chastising them, criticizing them”, if I do so I’m trapped by their tactics. Just like it’s not a wise way to attack drunk people who attack you. I would rather keep away.
Most of all, I feel very sad for China (and Japanese) hasn’t been able to turn the page of war attrocities as we (thanks to our governments and western cultures) in Europe did.
Chinese government doesn’t do much to calm down its people…
Well, it’s indeed kind of useful to maintain the “unity” of its nation (under PCC command that is…) in those socially difficult times.
After 10 years in China, I have yet to meet a Chinese that will not blindling say “i hate japanese!”.
So sad…
@Rick, how many foreigners do you think is encouraged to actually live and work in Japan on a permanent basis? Yeah, go ahead and travel all you want in Japan, but outside the major cities, you may not find a place to stay…
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/national/news/20081010p2a00m0na009000c.html
They will be very courteous to you of course when you’re visiting, and you will always be a gaijin outsider, and expected to leave.
Rick, I think you should try to stay in Japan for a time longer than a week visit, then you will be comparing apples to apples…
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/14169
@ SniperWZ….here’s a passage from that article you posted a link to…please read it:
To give credit to Japan for something- as prejudiced as they can be at times, they can also be very hospitable and respectful and welcoming. I had great friends there, people picking me up on the streets and taking me to restaurants and their homes; people meeting me on airplanes, total strangers and all, and telling me that I was now their son and that I should go and visit them as I would visit their parents.
@ USTCer:
I understand where you’re coming from but i think this boils down to arguments about “freedom.” Everyone has their own line of what is acceptable and unacceptable freedom that should be regulated by society through government. If nothing else, the United States Supreme Court has often dealt with this very issue throughout the years, trying to define the freedom of speech relative to public interests. I personally do not think this website should limit what it sets out to translate unless it chooses to and I happen to feel this topic was fully within chinaSMACK’s domain.
I understand why they posted it and I appreciate it. It may be a tired subject but it is a persistent one for a reason. I think allowing people to argue about it in the comments is also good, because people are exchanging ideas and learning more. True, some will not, but I prefer a more open-society than a closed one. I think Fauna could easily do a better job moderating out the idiots and subsequent idiotic comments but maybe not doing so shows some measure of faith that there are reasonable people out there willing to fight the good fight.
I think it is better to talk and argue than to pretend certain things don’t exist. I’m also not too sure your analogy of the drunk man is applicable to whether or not chinaSMACK should or shouldn’t post about this incident.
Japanese people are racist against black males from what my friends said when going their. And maybe against other asian groups, I’m not sure. But yeah, this topic is stupid. Nothing is going to change unless Japan apologizes or does something very noble.
It’s a shame, because Chinese people were starting to actually really like Japanese people during Sichuan Earthquake (and got pissed at the Koreans for making insensitive remarks) I think that’s the end of the story.
Interesting, does nobody research before speaking.
Firstly, Japanese and blacks receive the highest level of racism in China.
Secondly, Japan is NOW a peace loving country.
Thirdly, the Prime Minister of Japan during 2001, Junichiro Koizumi, did apologise on the 7th of Octoboer 2001 to Chairman Jiang Ze Min and Premier Zhu Rong Ji for crimes commited against the Chinese people during WW2.
Does every Japanese person need to appologise to every Chinese person, the Japanese now are different, the Chinese of now are different, The “Nanjing massacre” was primarily GuoMinDang as the Chinese capital was Nanjing.
Later it was primarily the GuoMinDang that defeated the Japanese and then were in turn defeated by the Communists, so if anything Taiwan should hate the Japanese, which they do not, and China (or Taiwan province and Mainland China depending on beliefs) should love them.
Now back to the main article about the fighting in Shanghai university, Yes the Japanese were bad, they should have shown respect for the other dorm residents, but this doesn’t give the rights for people to throw things.
I believe that it was nothing to do with the fact that they were Japanese at the start, if the were from any other country they would have shown the same nationalistic arrogance/pride, the fact that they later found out it was done by some Japanese students would of just added fuel to the fire and played on the animosity and hatred of the Japanese, hence the fighting was not more intense as they only found out later after the police arrived that they were Japanese (and then for whatever reason broke out in song).
This was a truly embarrassing story for the university and many of its students, both Chinese and otherwise.
Sorry, I should not have said nationalistic arrogance and just used pride.
I hope no offence was taken
@Kai
Our discussion should have nothing to do with freedom of speech. I dare not to mute anyone and I’m not trying to deny certain things’ existence. Maybe you live in an English speaking environment and find this incident interesting/thought-provoking but I saw too many nonsense in Chinese like that in the translated comments and find them annoying.
On what ChinaSMACK’s domain is, I have no objection. This is your blog and some eyeball attractors like this post may not be a bad thing. The analogy of the drunk man has nothing to do with chinaSMACK, just my 2 cents on fenqing.
It was a completely waste of my time reading this article.
@ bb
“For example, does anyone really see China’s automotive industry overtaking Honda or Toyota on safety foremost, or anything else?”
I’ve been reading a lot lately about something called “disruption” that happens in almost every industry. Give Chinese products some time, and what’s seen now as cheap and poorly made will eventually capture bigger and bigger shares of the market as they gain money and thus gain the ability to make their products in a better way, or in a way so unique that people will switch loyalties.
At one time in the not so distant past, Japanese cars/motorcycles were also treated as inferior, but look at them now.
Probably the smallest thing to pick up on in the whole article, but I was snowboarding in the North of Japan and had waited ages to go for a pee – because I was all bundled up in clothes. I rushed into the main building, into the toilets – and I went red with embarrassment (combined with the red of cold, and the red of exertion). I had walked into the ladies toilet by accident.
The girls were combing each others hair, putting on colourful lip balm, and all basically loitering in front of the mirrors in general. I quickly turned on my heels and left. But outside I could see the other toilet was the ladies, and this was indeed a Japanese gents toilet. I remembered this after reading about the students wearing eyeliner.
These 10 Japanese punks should have been more respectful. If they are having a BBQ, keep the noise to minimum.
I think they were asking for trouble in China. They were flaming and fanning. They were being dickheads. Not all Japanese are like that. The ones that usually cause trouble are the ones who don’t have a sense of responsibility, culture and empathy towards other people.
These days, being intoxicated like how Brits go to Southern Europe to get pissed is seen as “cool”. Being rowdy and boisterous is seen as “youthful”. Well, I hope the Public Security beat those foreigners for misbehaving and lock them up.
SniperWZ,
“how many foreigners do you think is encouraged to actually live and work in Japan on a permanent basis?”
I have lived here for over 8 years and I can assure you that there’s not much discrimination. Problems arise only because of language issues. I’ve never been turned away because I was foreign.
“I can assure you 95% of the people in China my age and soon in positions of political and economic influence share my thoughts and goals.”
I’m Chinese. My parents lost family in the war too and I’m embarrassed to hear this kind of talk in this day and age, especially from someone who seems intelligent and bilingual.
There are many Chinese people working hard and honestly in Japan. The Japanese are generally a civilized lot. They have their prejudices & minority hate groups, like everyone else, so please stop embarrassing the Chinese people with your immature mob rhetoric.
Fudge me, do we all have to bow down and cry with apologetic fervor to the Chinese people.
Rick and Dave: Right on, F the Da Lu Ren, what they can go on rampages in Korea, NZ, and Milan and nothing really happens??? You throw a bottle at me and you get your ass whooped that is all there is to it.
Chinese are blind little nationalites who can’t handle the fact that they got their ass whooped deservingly.
@ Sniper: You really think you have the innovation and Han “Wu Di” esque qualifications for world domination. The U.S would bomb you back into the stone age, er similar to what most provinces in China are like in about two seconds. Not to mention the Japanese would route you with ferocity in a matter of months this time around.
I have seen the “strongest Chinese” fighters get their asses whooped by amateur Americans in international competition. Their isn’t even one prominent Chinese in K-1, UFC, or Boxing. Please tell me how you our your descendants (who aren’t that far removed from Han Wudi in terms of intellect) intend to do this?
FCUK DA LU REN. Those Japs kicked your ASSES, and guess what, you DESERVED IT.
Ok… so college students get drunk and cause a fight… big deal. This isnt an issue of Chinese versus Japanese, this is just drunk college students being drunk college students!
Would this be in the news if this was an American school? Probably not. Would this matter much if they are both Chinese? Nope, it’s not the violence that people are outraged about, its the fact that 1 side of the conflict is made up of an ethnic minority that China really hates!
I’m not saying they have no reason to hate them, that is debatable, but race really isnt the issue here.
There’s obviously some really super people in China but, some observations.
1. They are hyper practical to the point they will pull anyone including each other, down when given the chance to go about it without come back. “crabs in a bucket”.
2. Chinese students are quite often in the news in other countries. Do a google news search, the stuff that hasn’t been blocked is frightening. The two students being tortured then murdered by their countrymen in Newcastle, was horrific!
3. The longer you stay in China, the less you will understand. Notice how the newbies get all defensive about the place, then stfu after 2 years, if they survive that long.
4. The moment anyone says “its a bit smoggy outside, no cricket today”, forums fill up with people complaining about Iraq. Hey, i’m not George Bush, email the white house if you wanna say something.
5. America and the allies defeated Japan while supplying China with weapons, aircraft and food. A “thank you big noses” day is long overdue.
@Equallaowaizer
Thank you, for pointing it out. the mental illness in this country is beyond belief. All this complaining about racism and “looking down on China” is so ridiculous.
This country STILL HAS SLAVES and Internment CAMPS!!!!! Give me a break. They have a massive spy network all over the world through threatening their own people. Just reading China Daily about makes my head explode.
I can’t wait till the economic waves ripple through this bitch and factories shut down their Melenine producing, coal burning, child laboring asses
And BTW,
Why do we have to “love China” to live there? Is that regulation I forgot to read? I complain about the US all the time, but that doesn’t mean I want to pack it up and go home.
I bet if you polled a bunch of Chinese in the US they would say there are things that they don’t like as well. Anyway, just ranting along
KEN, it WAS just about a few students having a row over some trivial issues. THEN as usual, (with a billion supporters behind them) the Chinese made it about ‘being a Chinese’. It wasn’t about anger at the offending few Japs, it was about everyone Japanese, and many who aren’t.
Any voice of reason can be shouted down by the mob because anything less than lemming behaviour wouldn’t be Chinese of them and they might become the focal point of the ‘mob’.
I’ve been the focal point of Chinese mobs ( not a joke) and while unpleasant, it’s not the end of the world.
What troubles me most are the comments on the internet towards the Japanese.
Are Chinese egos really that fragile? Is Chinese education really that pathetic that these kids can’t separate a simple fracas from a nationalist rampage? WTF is up Chinos?
Veer Left wrote, “Are Chinese egos really that fragile?”
My response is YES.
First, this is a century old issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q9kYKtvYU0 , but not all of Chinese are Bruce Lee
Second, I second KenfromShanghai. I would even say that police did a good job. Problem with whole story is that in each new post (in forums), story gets more and more details, and hate against Japanese students getting bigger. “From fly to an elephant”.
I found that some of Shanghai people are very special sensitive, due colonial time. They act like modern and open people, but when it comes to Japanese. And Japanese government doesn’t make things better.
Chinese people (some of them) doesn’t want to make “peace on mind” with Japanese people, and that scares me. Every drunk incident will be raised to political one. China can loose good face.
A sad, sad incident.
And another ting, where the hell is the mental healthcare system? even i can be a free roaming nutcase and go about my daily slobbering without fear of ever being diagnosed, detected or treated. Panic not, “its a very safe place”, yes as long as the news doesn’t report any of the stuff the neighbours talk about.
@klimmer
I find that Chinese who have actually lived in Japan often share your view, and I respect that a lot – it shows opening eyes, rather than closed mind.
@fcuk
Extremism dilutes your point and surely shuts a lot of people off, but I don’t think making a point or being heard is ultimately why you enjoy posting here, eh :D
@topic fraction “racism”…off on a major tangent.
Although it may (hopefully) change in the future, hopefully near future, there is significant black/white (not racial) racism and separatism here in China on all levels, as I will try to relate from looking at how Chinese act in bar/social situations..specifically males and based on their friendliness/openness towards others in these social situations.
First, if a group is only Chinese, there is favortism to the majority and separatism with minorities. If a group is minority/chinese with some whites, the group becomes more of a Chinese White. If a group is minority/chinese/whites with some blacks, the group often becomes minority/chinese/white Black (at least, the Chinese men become more friendly with the white people, at a what seems to be attempt to gain acceptance of their racism towards black people). This isn’t an absolute observation by ANY means, but I do find that Chinese guys are very protectionist towards their females when white guys are in the vicinity, but if Black guys are in the vicinity they suddenly become very accepting and promoting of relations with white guys and defensive towards black guys. I go out a lot here, and this isn’t just nonsense, I think many people who go out a lot in popular places can see this kind of narrow minded protectionism and grouping.
Again, a massive generality, but a ‘feeling’ that is clear and present: there is a very quick “turn” against whole groups of people based on news they hear in the world or events they are told about, or popular internet rumors. French PM doesn’t want to go to Olympics ceremony? Hate all things french! Korea hates japan? Love korea! Someone korean insensitive about earthquake? Hate korea! Love, hate, love, hate, become infuriated then full of praise on the flip of a dime, all this might be related directly to people having their opinions and perspectives unheard or opressed throughout most of their lives, and when something can be turned into an event that allows for this kind of banding together…a false cause or what have you, they feel the need to *pounce* and release a lot of pent up expressive angst.
If this happend in Guatemala, those japs would clearly be dead ! haha and the japs know why. QUEMEN A TODOS ESO JAPONESES HIJOS DE PUTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VIVA LA MARA SALVATRUCHA
you ignorant pussy (fcku daluren) go back into your father’s penis
Hey JZ,
You talk tough but I would beat you like those japs beat your comrades, suck it
I’ve been to enough college parties to be familiar with the way these incidents are handled in the USA.
Very simply, the irritated people call the police. The police come by, usually issue an expensive ticket and a court date. Please note the absence of violence.
Despite my native country being horribly screwed up in almost every way, there are some things about it that I miss.
wow, I really enjoy the fighting here.
/grab popcorn
The rhetoric is interesting, and disturbingly confused. Wouldn’t the way to show unity and patriotism be to start by obeying your country’s laws, and the rules laid down by your school? By all means, protest, petition, and press charges until the perpetrators (if that indeed is what they are) have no choice but to go home in shame. All of the macho antics (which failed to amount to anything anyways) only create further problems for their country, by wasting police resources and creating unnecessary controversy, not to mention endangering the lives of innocent bystanders. Even if all of the Chinese students were “unified”, wouldn’t they still be at odds with the Chinese police, who are the only ones who had any business handling the matter? How is that showing Chinese solidarity? Well, not that I expect anyone on online forums to make sense anyways, regardless of what country they come from.
FUCK ALL CHINKS! NEVER BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT POLITE, HIGHLY DEVELOPED AND COOL JAPANESE PEOPLE! THEY CHINKS ONLY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED! IT’S SO FUNNY HOW THEY ARE THOUGHT TO HATE JAPANESE PEOPLE WHEN THEIR OWN CHINK GOVERNMENT HATES THEM! HAHA!
I have a theory…
So, SniperWZ, which of the translated BBS posts is yours? And seriously, 95% of what people think like you? Exactly. And Japan won’t be going down anytime soon. If you think it’s replaceable, well, American lenders thought subprime mortgages were a great idea too.
Of course, I prefer to use Japanese and European products in my daily life and have an American passport. I can see you screaming “Traitor” already.
And @GuateChapin- Lovely sentiment there.
In Japan, how often do you hear regular people on the street refer to Chinese in a negative way? In the US, how often do you hear of Chinese or Japanese refered to in a negative way? In China, how often do you hear Japanese or other foreigners refered to in a negative way? One of the most normal ways in China to refer ro a Japanse person, no matter which part of the country you live in, is ribenguizi, Japanese devil. That’s a fact. Every movie on tv is about fighting the Japanese devils. Why does China have a special ability to hate the Japanese? I know the history well. Better than most. Why have so many other countries learned to deal with the history in a mature fashion yet China often can’t? Koreans, Brits, Americans, Malays, etc. all have just as valid a reason, if not more so, to hate Japan, yet they usually deal with it so much more maturely than China. Why?
fcuk da lu ren, wait and observe the changes, and accept it, don’t die on me like Gerald Segal…
After reading some of the post in ChinaSmack. I would like to leave some comments.
Many of you criticize the Shanghai students of nationalistic reaction. Some even defended the Japanese students by saying they are drunk, and was enraged by someone throwing a water bottle from upper floors. And that’s was that – somehow justifying it.
But that’s simplistic. I believe that the noise pollution created by the Japanese students are not an isolated incident but a near daily affair. Coupled by the fact, that the School authorities probably always protected these students. There were probably numerous complaints against them, to a point that these japanese students thinks they are above the regulations of the school. The Chinese students have probably put up with this for a long time. Asking the securities to handle such cases will come to nod.
Now, coming back. While it can be argued that the Japanese students were pissed off by the bottle throwing. It does not justify them to run up to the 9th floor with weapons, banging every door shouting “Fuck China” along the way, looking for the culprit and beating the shit out anyone who responding to the knock-on-the-door, and expect Chinese students not to response nationlistically.. Serious. Shouting “Fuck China” in itself portray National hatred. Coming from the Japanese.. WTF do you expect.
If the drunk japanese actions can be explained by bottle throwing, so can the Chinese Action by explained by anti-jargons. Which is worst, who got beaten and hospitalised ?
I know many of you are as frustrated as Gordon Chang! You observe the changes and gains China has made this decade and you’re just furious that China only gets stronger every year, much to your chagrin, while the wonu becomes ever more irrelevant. Don’t worry, like many others, I drive a Honda and have an American passport, too, being practical and working towards the destruction of the wonu can exist side by side. Fcuk da lu ren, your presence in China contributes to its growth, so thanks to you as well!
@ Mike
“Koreans, … usually deal with it so much more maturely than China.”
I LOLed.
Don’t be mislead by the “ribenguizi” calling. I have to say most Chinese don’t hate Japanese people, they vote with their money: check out how many Japan made cars on streets and electronic gadgets at homes. Lot’s of Chinese, including me, are quite fond of Japanese pop culture. Even people in older generation had a nice memory of Japanese TV drama like XueYi. However, Japanese’s bad attitude towards WWII brutality really provoke angry from Chinese. I wouldn’t say all Japanese have such attitude, let’s say 10%, but 10% of Chinese who are angry are more than the population of Japan. Western countries had different reasons to hate Japan than some Asian countries based on what Japanese did. Imagine Hitler German occupied England and USA for years and killed millions in WWII and some German officials are still reluctant to admit that such massacre existed, what do you feel? Don’t defend Japanese on this point since it really hurts some Chinese people.
I don’t understand why foreigners have to bear the Chinese making noises but why can’t we?
anyway Japanese students shouldn’t have done that though.
Rick in China:
“Again, a massive generality, but a ‘feeling’ that is clear and present: there is a very quick “turn” against whole groups of people based on news they hear in the world or events they are told about, or popular internet rumors. French PM doesn’t want to go to Olympics ceremony? Hate all things french! Korea hates japan? Love korea! Someone korean insensitive about earthquake? Hate korea! Love, hate, love, hate, become infuriated then full of praise on the flip of a dime, all this might be related directly to people having their opinions and perspectives unheard or opressed throughout most of their lives, and when something can be turned into an event that allows for this kind of banding together…a false cause or what have you, they feel the need to *pounce* and release a lot of pent up expressive angst.”
Your observation and analysis is right on. My supposition is the Chinese culture of togetherness and the political tendencies of victimhood. The togetherness or so called unity make Chinese vulnerable to mass think and behavior. They follow their leaders blindly. By leader it is not some one with balanced view and charisma. It is more like a leader of a mob, whoever can yell the loudest and can stir up the bassiest emotions. Just think of the scenes during the Red Guards era, chanting rampaging randomly through out the country, destroying, and killing. These Chinese youths have a very juvenile social development which results in each individual unable to separate self from the group. It is very much like pack animals following the leader. At least pack animals do it for survival. These Chinese youths do it for hate.
The victimhood which is encouraged by the government of holding grudge against the whole world. Chinese still hate U.S. and Europe for their imperialist attitude over a hundred years ago, never mind when U.S. sent weapons and food to China to fight the Japanese and subsequently liberated China from Japanese occupation. Hong Kong was developed as an important trade center with Chinese talent and hardwork, but under the protection and administration of Britain. Chinese could only see it as a reminder of their humiliation from their defeat by the British during the Opium War. Their list of grudges are long and deep against the world. The Chinese government has been stoking nationalism to maintain their legitimacy. Japan should do the honorable thing to apologize to China for its attrocities committed during their occupation (My family was in Shanghai at the time and had many memories and stories of Japanese attrocity to tell). Unfortunately, they had been let off the hook by U.S. because of the cold war when U.S. needed Japan as a military base to watch over Soviet expansionism. Germany had done more than necessary to apologize for its past. As long as Japan refuses to recognize its brutal past, there is always a tendency to forget only to repeat the same mistake of eventual self-destruction and death by the millions. At present there is already brewing anationalistic sentiment in Japan.
Otherwise, many overseas Chinese do not carry any hositlity towards Japanese. In fact for cultural reasons, it is much easier to make friends with Japanese, than Asian with White and Black, for the reason that we have much in common in language, art, work ethic, social manners of being considerate. People can enrich each other so much more than to claim national, ethnic or racial superiorty, only to blind oneself to new way of doing and seeing.
“My supposition is the Chinese culture of togetherness and the political tendencies of victimhood. The togetherness or so called unity make Chinese vulnerable to mass think and behavior. They follow their leaders blindly. By leader it is not some one with balanced view and charisma. It is more like a leader of a mob, whoever can yell the loudest and can stir up the bassiest emotions.” – Ann
Ann, you are totally right!
I also agree with the statement, “The Chinese government has been stoking nationalism to maintain their legitimacy.”
Right on the money.
@ Frustrated Laowai
I used to live near a Mexican community in Texas. In weekends there were jubilant Mexican music all day long from morning to sunset, which can be heard blocks away. Speaking aloud and making “noises” are part of some cultures. I respect it.
I encourage everyone not making judgment too early to say “Chinese hate what” or “Chinese love what”. China has 1.3 billion people. Even 1% of Chinese protesting something look like that whole country is doing it since others are silent. That’s simply not the case.
@Ann
“They follow their leaders blindly. By leader it is not some one with balanced view and charisma. It is more like a leader of a mob, whoever can yell the loudest and can stir up the bassiest emotions”
I agree with that. Not sure about other east Asian cultures but Chinese culture has such immatureness. In Taiwan(Chinese culture), the democratic advance party is a valid proof of such statement.
THis is ridiculous.
Japan and various Japanese figures have publicly apologized for WW2 atrocities. And more importantly the Japanese (and Americans, Canadians et al) have GIVEN money in humanitarian aid to China, even as China was throwing rocks at it’s embassies and building space rockets. Japan has been pouring money into this countries economy and industrial infrastructure to the point where it begins to look like they believe in the China Dream more than the Chinese (who are mostly out for a quick buck)!
In a country with “State Controlled Media” , what exactly do you know?
VeerLeft:
Check it out on PBS Frontline/World: ….In April 2005, a Japanese junior high school textbook set off a furor in China. The textbook minimized one of the most infamous instances of Japanese war-time atrocities in China—calling the Nanjing Massacre an “incident.”
The former Prime Minister visited the shrine of Japanes War heroes.
Yeah, Japan invested a lot of money in China, so do Europe, America; they all do it for self-interest. Not that there is anything wrong with it, Japan had not come right out to admit their brutality and atrocity during the War.
@ Veer Left
What news do you read? Why are you defending Japanese government? Read the “The lenaga textbook incident” section in following page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
[quota]A number of Japanese cabinet ministers, as well as some high-ranking politicians, have made comments denying the atrocities committed by the Japanese Army in World War II. Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara has claimed “People say that the Japanese made a holocaust but that is not true. It is a story made up by the Chinese. It has tarnished the image of Japan, but it is a lie.”[/quota]
Ok, what gives Chinese people the right to bitch about Japanese textbook historical revisionism when their textbooks are just as bad?
How many of them know about what Mao was really like and what went on during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution?
Mao murdered many more people than Japan did so if China is going to bitch about Japan’s textbooks then they need to take a look at their own as well and stop feeling sorry for themselves!
It’s absurd to upgrade a minor school camp incident into something relating to national emotions.
Seemingly these angry youths could never choose a right outlet the express their feeling of patriotism. The weird nationalism is obviously due to lack of self-confidence and matureness of their psyche.
its ok, the translated forum postings show just how mature chinese people are!
i hope it spreads so everybody around the world can see it.
“its ok, the translated forum postings show just how mature chinese people are!
i hope it spreads so everybody around the world can see it.”
I’m quite sure it reveals more about how you perceive this situation rather than what the Chinese people think.
I don’t understand how this hate accumulated. I mean, if the Japanese students were causing noise, wouldn’t it normal to first ask them to quiet down?
If they refuse or continue you could just ask security to kick them out or something.
I mean, the Japanese kids being loud, drunk, and partying wasn’t a good idea.
(Well, since it is college I expect that they weren’t the only ones doing that anyway)
But the Chinese students provoked them first by throwing water.
Also, it’s pretty bad that what those Japanese students did makes them categorize all Japanese (or even foreign people) to be “bad”.
Individuals do not define the whole.
The problem is the current government is too weak minded and feeble in its response, we’ll need to democratically elect a new nationalist party who can finally execute the plans Chiang Kai-shek described in his memoir, “China’s Destiny”. China’s true potential cannot be achieved by a government that willingly ceded a huge chunk of the Qing Empire and even today toadies up to the wonu.
I don’t understand how 10 Japanese people didn’t get their asses kicked by a school full of Chinese people? Something doesn’t add up here. That’s why I think THIS STORY IS A BUNCH OF BS. All those pictures could’ve been taken from the balcony of somebody’s apartment during some house party that got out of hand for all I know. Anytime we hear anyone talk about this incident, the stories are only coming from a bunch of Chinese people. Why don’t we hear something from some of the Japanese kids or from some of the other foreigners that had to have witnessed the event?
Somebody else mentioned this already, but basically Japan is just a scapegoat for China’s problems. The people in charge created an enemy to distract people from its own shortcomings. However, I’m not saying that the crap Japan pulled back in the day didn’t happen.
Too many Chinese people are starting to sound like a bunch of jealous and spoiled babies every time they pull out the “blame the japanese! We hate them” card.” Unfortunately, most Chinese people are too ignorant or uneducated to see their immaturity. The bottom line is, if China wants to get taken seriously and wants to get back at Japan, they need to start working on competing on the same level. China is currently just a giant factory. China doesn’t create things; it can only copy and manufacture things. What I hate even more is when Chinese people bring up the “5 of the greatest inventions of all time came from China” speech. That stuff is all in the past. Human beings need innovation.
“Somebody else mentioned this already, but basically Japan is just a scapegoat for China’s problems. The people in charge created an enemy to distract people from its own shortcomings. However, I’m not saying that the crap Japan pulled back in the day didn’t happen.
Too many Chinese people are starting to sound like a bunch of jealous and spoiled babies every time they pull out the “blame the japanese! We hate them” card.” Unfortunately, most Chinese people are too ignorant or uneducated to see their immaturity. The bottom line is, if China wants to get taken seriously and wants to get back at Japan, they need to start working on competing on the same level. China is currently just a giant factory. China doesn’t create things; it can only copy and manufacture things.”
- Gemen(r)
I totally agree…..one thing I like about this site is finding other laowai out there who feel the same way as I do about China and the people here.
It’s interesting to see how the majority of Chinese feel one way whilst the majority of the rest of the world feels completely the opposite.
As for the Japanese never apologising about the war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
Have a read of that.
Shanghai Brit:
That is no apology. The Japanese leaders danced around the subject in generality. There was never specific mention of anything. You can call it a white wash, sanitized apology. Any good news reporter or language experts can see the ploy.
On Personal versus Official Japanese Apology: “Were these apologies considered adequate, there would be no perennial debate of whether an official national apology is due. It is instructive to compare the responses of Japan to Germany, who is responsible for the Jewish Holocaust of WW II. Since the late sixties, Germany was not called on to apologize as the German postwar generation is eager to remember, to learn and to prevent recurrence of similar genocides.” – Global Alliance for Preserving WWII history in Asia.
To this date Japan had not paid for any compensation to victims of Japanese atrocity, British, Dutch, Australian, Korean, Philipinos, and Chinese.
They have invested to sell cars, appliances, electronics, but not direct or indirect compensation.
I would highly recommend that everyone on this blog read it and give their opinon as to whether the Japanese actually apologized.
agree with Ann on this point…
@SniperWZ-”you’re just furious that China only gets stronger every year”- yes, the stock market losing most of its value and inflation proceeding at above-normal rates and the housing bubble that’s about to go bust is “getting stronger every year”, is it? In that case, shouldn’t America be even stronger?
“The problem is the current government is too weak minded and feeble in its response, we’ll need to democratically elect a new nationalist party who can finally execute the plans Chiang Kai-shek described in his memoir, “China’s Destiny”.”
You know what, suddenly I don’t mind the current party staying in power after all.
“To this date Japan had not paid for any compensation to victims of Japanese atrocity, British, Dutch, Australian, Korean, Philipinos, and Chinese.
They have invested to sell cars, appliances, electronics, but not direct or indirect compensation.
I would highly recommend that everyone on this blog read it and give their opinon as to whether the Japanese actually apologized.”
Ann makes some valid points here. She’s right. Doesn’t alter the fact that Japan will never apologise or offer compensation. Maybe it’s to do with that Eastern concept of ‘face’. The face thing constantly baffles me.
jamar, it doesn’t matter what you think…since you sound like an ignorant moron who have no clue what’s going on in the world, go to google and search for “credit crisis”; what you just described is true pretty much everywhere in the world right now.
“You know what, suddenly I don’t mind the current party staying in power after all.”
Don’t be a communist supporter.
I want to say a couple of things here, as this is something me and my colleagues have talked about here in China in the last three years.
1) You can’t rightly compare the situation with China/Japan to Germany. No public official (much less the prime minister) in Germany is visiting shrines dedicated to SS officers or other people considered by other countries to be war criminals. Yet that’s what happened for several years in Japan when what’s-his-name visited that shrine (too lazy to look stuff up, sorry). That’s obnoxious, plain and simple. Add to that the textbook controversy, and it’s clear that Chinese have a right to be pissed at Japan.
2) That being said, I have a problem with the teaching of hate. I’ve had personal experience with Chinese teachers and students and it appears that it’s not unusual for students to be taught to hate Japan for what they did. Maybe these are isolated cases by crazed teachers. It’s pretty tough to justify teaching kids to hate. Teaching them not to forget, yes, ok. But not to hate. Intense nationalism and hatred are things that the world needs to hope can go away with each generation, since these are the things that are keeping us all down; we certainly don’t need to be teaching it in school.
3) I realize that this negates my first point, but I’m going to say it anyway since so many people always want to bring up Germany in any discussion about this topic. Having volunteered in a Jewish private school in the past, I can assure you that Jewish children do not get taught to hate Germany. Rather, they learn about what happened, how terrible it was that humans can act this way towards each other; they try to find some good stories that came out of the bad situation; they try to think of ways in which we can prevent this from ever happening again.
This is all just personal experience, take what you will from it.
well, one thing I agree with sniperwz is we should have a government that act truly on people’s will, because right now the native chinese in china like me are third-class citizens.
I dont know if anyone already knew, a train stopped for some japanese tourists to get them on a cop car and escort them straight to the airport because they were about to miss a flight, while a migrant worker was strangled to death probably by the same kind of people who served the foreigners, and this coquetry reached its peak during the olympics, one british journalist wrote about how he received “emperial class” hospitality in Beijing that he didn’t even have to open doors himself.
now don’t get me wrong, I want china to live peacefully with other nations or races, I just want EQUALITY.
目前民族主义的目的不是为了反外，而是为了尊内。虽然现在国人生活水平提高，国力增强，但“崇洋媚外”的心理和几百年前一样，甚至更糟。这种心理就像疾病一样一代一代地遗传下来。
当看到一边是“1291次列车 狂躁民工被绑一夜死在火车上”；一边是“大连火车破例临时停1分钟助日籍旅客赶飞机”；再联想到外国人在中国所受到的“超国民待遇”，足以让一个人心寒！
所以我要赞扬这些“鄙视警察”的大学生，他们的行为虽然不理智但从他们身上所体现出来的精神足以让我为民族主义赞叹。
@ Fat American
“I’ve been to enough college parties to be familiar with the way these incidents are handled in the USA.
Very simply, the irritated people call the police. The police come by, usually issue an expensive ticket and a court date. Please note the absence of violence.”
I can’t decide if you’re being ironic or not, since your comment seems so ridiculous, but I’m going to bite anyway.
Where do you live? Perfectville, USA? Have you really ever been to college? Get any young, macho male (drunk or not) in any country in the world into a situation where they can show off in a fight, and they’ll fight. Plain and simple. To suggest that in the USA this all would have been handled so perfectly and peacefully is totally outrageous.
@ Fuller – True, but Americans don’t get together and sing patriotic songs after a fight at a college party….at least not from my experience.
What’s so hard to understand about face. The west is so self-conscious and image obsessed yet you can’t recognize face?
What’s so hard to understand about face. The west is so self-conscious and image obsessed yet you can’t recognize face?
two different things, no?
We all agree a full water bottle or an empty beer bottle from the 9th floor would kill anyone it hit right? So that pathetic little twat student attempted to murder some Japanese who were celebrating a birthday.
I hope he is arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent for attempted murder.
but don’t you think that these Japanese guy should have given some common courtesy? However, I don’t agree what the Chinese student did though. They should have reported it and let the authority deal with it. This type of shit should be common in your typical college life. Dudes throwing a party next door blasting their music 1 in the morning and your are trying to sleep or get shit done. That’s what frat parties are for. These guys if they want to celebrate, fine with me… but if it’s 1 in the morning take your party to the bar, club… whatever.
^ Yeah but wait.. They’re students.
When I was a student I spent most of my waking hours pursuing the art of debauchery.
What’s wrong with these Chinese kids that they want to go to bed early and study hard? Grow some balls, ffs.
In last century, Germans killed almost 4 millions of my people. They made apology, payed reparations, and no one goes on street raging against Germans for something they do 60 years ago.
Problem is that Japan wont to made apology, to recognize their war crimes. Why is that? They are ashamed, that’s why. As Chinese people, they don’t admit that mistake is made. It is same reason I spent two hours on airport, loosing my plane. Guy that made mistake never said “sorry” to me. He pretended like nothing happened. This is just small example how east Asians deals with stuffs they ashamed off.
Many Japanese that I know feels very uncomfortable about war crimes.
@”Japan will never apologize” crowd.
All these posts saying “Japan has never apologized” “Japan will never apologize” do you people not even read your own censored newspapers? FUCK!
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200508/15/eng20050815_202471.html Of course something this significant gets almost NO attention and an extremely, extremely small bit of coverage. Wait here’s ANOTHER one 2 years later http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japanese-prime-minister-apologizes-to-world-war-iiera-sex-slaves-442000.html They apologize. They apologize a LOT.
“Abe had said previously he would not offer a fresh apology, saying the government expressed its remorse in a 1993 statement on the matter by then Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono.” They have been apologizing since 1993 in various ways, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, HERE:
“Japan has rejected most compensation claims from victims. Instead, a private fund created in 1995 by the Japanese government has provided a way to support former sex slaves without offering official government compensation.
Many women rejected the payments, demanding government compensation and a parliament-approved apology.”
Looks like a bunch of whining and bitching over semantics to me. My grandfather was shot in the leg by a german and lost his ability to walk normally for the remainder of his life with bits of shrapnel lodged in his femur, he held no ill will towards germans, it was a war. How many generations of Japan/ese giving ‘insufficient’ apologies and funds that most of the whining people don’t even pay attention to or have relation to are required? Clearly there’s no answer to that question as no matter what is done it will NEVER be enough.
Seriously, what the hell does China want Japan to do at this point?
Give them all of their land and money and kill themselves?
Even if Japan did that I think China would still bitch about them…or just look for a new enemy to blame all of their problems on.
Re: Japanese Apologies for WW2
- Many Japanese people and members of the Japanese government have been publicly contrite and apologetic for what the nation of Japan has previously done to the Chinese.
- Unfortunately, there are still Japanese who are not contrite, apologetic, or have rationalized away what happened in the past. Some of it is understandable to even many rational, intelligent Chinese but there are also often instances that are insensitive or legitimately outrageous.
- It is understandable for Chinese people to harbor resentment towards the Japanese even if they calmly do understand that not all Japanese are responsible to what happened in the past. There is a lot of history and while everyone needs to work towards putting it behind them, it is foolish to not acknowledge how powerful these sentiments are.
- Every time someone or something in Japan is insensitive towards their past atrocities, there will be people (not just Chinese) who will take offense to it. This unfortunately brings back all the bad memories and feelings of resentment. As a nation, China definitely has certain traumas. While it should not be continuously coddled as a victim (sooner or later it is one’s own responsibility to grow up), it is just blind idiocy to think the Chinese aren’t going to bitch and whine when anyone in Japan does anything that can be interpreted as being insensitive towards China’s past grievances with Japan. No matter how Japan’s former prime minister rationalized paying his respects to the very leaders responsible for massacring Chinese, the Chinese are going to think it is despicable.
- There is a nationalistic movement within Japan to this day comprised of members who feel it is foolish for Japan to continually whip itself for what happened in the past. They feel, after all, that they are not their forefathers, that they did not commit the atrocities their ancestors did, and that they have MUCH to be proud of in modern Japan. All of this is rational and understandable. Many of these people do not deny nor do they feel they are being insensitive to history; they just want to move on and not feel bad for being proud of themselves.
- There is nothing wrong with being proud of yourself, your people, and your country. But there IS something wrong when you start becoming arrogant, looking down upon others, going as far as diminishing them, using racist terms, being racist, and whitewashing historical facts.
Politics is complicated. International politics more so. Politics between the Japanese and Chinese are incredibly frustrating due to legitimate gripes about each other and about what has happened. As with any society, the emotional and idiotic often outnumber and are more vocal than the rational. It is true that given the sheer population of China that even a small percentage seems like a lot. Hopefully, observers can keep that in mind before painting all Chinese with the conclusions of a single experience. It goes without saying that the same goes for the Chinese themselves in how they look at others.
@ Sexy Fat Buddha:
Come on, man, you can’t be serious about insisting that every college kid fitting your conception of what a college kid should be like. What’s wrong if they do want to go to bed early and study hard? Just because you preferred to spend your college years partying or pursuing the art of debauchery doesn’t mean that’s what everyone else should do.
I thought a big part of college for me was learning how to coexist with your peers. Throwing a party, being too loud, and not respecting others after they ask you to quiet down is rude. So is physically escalating a situation by throwing a bottle at someone but we really shouldn’t be judging this incident by trying to excuse either side.
BOTH sides should be held accountable for their own mistakes in judgment. There’s enough blame to go around.
@Kai RE: “No matter how Japan’s former prime minister rationalized paying his respects to the very leaders responsible for massacring Chinese”
The dead, the war criminals being a small number when compared to the majority of the dead buried at the cemetery, can’t possibly be expected to be physically moved in order to allow remembrance of one and not the other. Or do you expect no remembrance towards any of Japan’s military dead?
RE: “There is nothing wrong with being proud of yourself, your people, and your country. But there IS something wrong when you start becoming arrogant, looking down upon others, going as far as diminishing them, using racist terms, being racist, and whitewashing historical facts.”
I can’t figure out if you’re referring to Japanese or Chinese in this statement. :)
I’m an overseas Chinese (Hua Qiao) here in the Philippines and fortunately we don’t experience here at my school. However recently there has also been an extremely big inflow of Korean students and I can say most of them are extremely rude. At the streets they bump into me as if no one was there and they keep on complaining how stupid the country is. They think of themselves high and discriminate against the locals. I also have friends in China and they said the same thing.
If the same thing happened here I doubt the foreigners would get out unscratched. If the Japanese just shouted foul words and I’d probably just do the same thing to be fair. But if there’s already physical violence, well, it’s sushi time :D
I already have experienced discrimination too in Japan so I do my very best to be friendly and accomodating to foreigners because I know how it feels to be out of place. But of course you should also do your part in respecting us.
I would just like to add something more hehe. I also think it’s more because on how the Chinese education system goes. Similar to Korea, there’s always that slight implication to bring hatred towards the Japanese.
I was born and raised here and studied in a Taiwanese School in the Philippines and there are some instances where the teacher would say how evil the Japanese are. We even had an exhibit focusing on JAPANESE ATROCITIES on WW2 with complete sets of PICTURES. If that’s happening on some taiwanese school here in Manila, what more back in China :)
Just want to share it
@Rick
In People’s daily I didn’t find apology for deaths. In Independent article is stated: “Still, his remarks fell short of demands made by victims that Abe clearly acknowledge that the wartime military forced the women into prostitution.”
@ Rick:
By all accounts I’m familiar with, it is not just a cemetery, it is the Yasukuni War Shrine that honors 14 WW2 war criminals.
Come on, man. More importantly, there are less controversial and more diplomatic ways to honor the 2.5 million Japanese that died fighting a war for their country. Case in point:
Japanese prime minister Yasuo Fukuda refuses to visit Second World War shrine.
I hope my fellow Chinese will take note of that, as well as people who seem to think there is no alternative method for remembering the dead.
Furthermore, note even in the same article…
When stuff like that reaches Chinese people’s ears, it just causes problems. I believe those are minority, extreme right-wing views in Japan, and I implore Chinese people to acknowledge that, but it is much harder when a head of state does visits a war shrine.
Things like this need to be viewed in context and the context here dictates that a head of state responsible for representing his nation, his constituency, and paying heed to international diplomacy must consider how his actions may be interpreted. Yes, Yasukuni honors not just the 14 war criminals, but are there no other ways to honor the dead than to visit Yasukuni?
I reiterate that many Japanese have been appropriately contrite and apologetic, but yes, there are those who have not been.
I can’t figure out if you’re referring to Japanese or Chinese in this statement. :)
Obviously both and for anyone of any race/nation.
I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Rebecca MacKinnon in Hong Kong before (fantastic Chinese). This is anther good article that presents a good amount of information surrounding the Yasukuni war shrine issue: Rebecca MacKinnon: Japan’s prime minister visits a war shrine
Singing “national anthem” after two students were beaten by Japanese.What are left in the students’ heads is only shit.
@Kai RE: “14 WW2 war criminals.”
You make my point for me. Reading your link, “The shrine is dedicated to the spirits of about 2.5 million Japanese who have died fighting for the emperor since the mid-1800s. Eighty percent are from World War II. Fourteen were convicted as “class A” war criminals by a special Tokyo war crimes tribunal administered by the allied powers.”
It’s dedicated to ~2.5million dead. 14 are criminals. Acknowledged as criminals who were executed. My point here is that it is part of their religion and belief system, and it’s not possible to separate the 14 from the 2.5 million…sure, there may be “alternatives” as you suggest, but there are also “alternatives” to say, demonstrations interfering in the public’s daily life, should they be stopped?
I’m glad that the new prime minister sacrificed his personal (perhaps..anyways) beliefs and pride in order to try to make further amends to the issue, taking the high road. That being said – I digress – and would like to point to all the “THEY NEVER APOLOGIZED” crowd to actually do some research before they make these kind of claims and spread misinformation inciting further hate.
@ Kai – i was kind of being tongue in cheek with that one…
But really.. these kids spend WAY too much time studying. It’s really not healthy to study ten hours a day.
Its sad that this stuff gets blown up into a nationalistic situation. But I guess its bound to happen with the victim syndrome that still prevails in the Chinese mindset.
This is basically a fight between two groups. Two groups, not two countries.
Not to condone violence but if you can’t beat drunk guys that you threw a beer bottle at then you should not call other people to join in the fight you just lost. If you start a conflict but can’t finish it then you can’t blame anyone but yourself. At least run away so they don’t catch you and beat you up.
Come on. These guys are drunk. Maybe just a little drunk but the sober person is supposed to have the advantage right? If you can’t fight them then run away. How hard is it to run away from drunk people?
@ Sexy Fat Buddha:
What makes you think the students involved were studying 10 hours a day or whatever? Maybe they just wanted a reasonable amount of quiet at that hour of the night and the Japanese kids weren’t respectful of it. There’s no need to characterize the Chinese kids as being nerds or whatever. The bottom line is respect for peace and quiet in an academic setting.
@ Rick in China:
No, I think you’re confusing the issue. Remembering the dead is not the problem. Visiting a WAR SHRINE that has a long-standing and deserved reputation for denying or downplaying the nation of Japan’s past atrocities is the problem and it is not just a problem in the eyes of Chinese alone, but for much of the Asian countries affected in WW2 as well as the United States.
Read the other article I linked:
Notice that the main points of this issue is how such an act is perceived AND how such an act affects the visitor’s OFFICE. Koizumi was not visiting in the capacity of an private individual for his private beliefs in his private time (Shinto is also no longer the state religion in Japan).
He was visiting as the Prime Minister of Japan.
As a HEAD OF STATE, such an act sends strong messages and any head of state must be sensitive to that. It is part of their job description. They are, like it or not, acting on behalf of their country and that country’s people. This is also why George W. Bush catches so much flak for his actions as well. If you can understand the dynamic with George W. Bush, then you ought to be able to understand the dynamic for Koizumi.
It is CORRECT to point out that many Japanese have been appropriately contrite/apologetic about the past, but it is also RELEVANT and LEGITIMATE to point out that Koizumi’s visits to the Yasukuni War Shrine is controversial and sends controversial messages to observers.
Read the rest of the CNN article. To me, the bottom line is that there is no excuse for a Japanese head of state to NOT be aware of the political fallout and backlash from visiting the Yasukuni War Shrine. If they choose to do so, as they are free to do so like Koizumi, they simply have to accept the consequences. Those consequences include enraging a lot of Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, and other interested parties who have the right to remember the past and fear for what an act might symbolize or lead to.
I forgot to add:
It is foolish to argue that a Japanese head of state be allowed to visit a symbolism-laden “war shrine” and that everyone else should just feel fine and dandy about it. The act of visiting Yasukuni is not just about 14 war criminals and whether or not they can be “separated” from the war shrine or not. Yasukuni is much more than that in the eyes of so many people. Trying to say “it is just a cemetery” is paramount to ignoring reality. That’s a terrible rationalization and not what any political figure (who must be pragmatic with reality) can deny. Symbolism is strong in our world. Whether you like it or not, Yasukuni symbolizes something. It is foolish not to be sensitive to that.
Now, I think Koizumi was indeed sensitive to it, but he had his reasons for doing what he did and it was not just about “remembering the dead.” It may not be “we should militarize and invade China” but I do think there were domestic political reasons for his actions, and other people, like the Chinese, have reasonable cause to be sensitive to it.
Rick, you’re so much smarter than playing dumb on this. Don’t let me down, man.
and ME, i don’t speak english…
Idiots. What does this have to do with the shrine??
The idiot Chinese student should be tried with attempted murder and the Japanese with ‘assualt’. Surely a vast , racist mob intent on killing you makes ground for self-defence?
And i just wish the total dickhead that asked for equality in his own homeland could experience being foreign in china.
And a parting shot (thank all that is good and decent SniperWZ left)- “it doesn’t matter what you think” is exactly what started this incident. I hope people learn so that such things don’t happen next time. Oh, and never drink alcohol if you think you might do something you’ll regret later.
On Japanese taking responsibility on the atrocities committed in Asia:
Semantics counts because it reveals the hidden psyche, the unspoken lie, the denial, and hostility. Whether a common convicted murderer is truly remorseful cannot be judged by his professed remorse alone during his death sentence. A simple apology by officials once a great while can not be accepted as sufficient given the extent of killings and butchering by the Japanese. It has to be repeated by heads of the state over and over, in specifics and in deeds. So far the apology has been given in generalities to samll audiences and events. No vicitm has been personally recognized or acknowledged. The number of victims of Japanese brutality also ran in millions. And, there is no equivalent of Holocaust museums for the victims anywhere in the world. Meanwhile, there is a movement in Japan to wipe out this memory, of teaching history without mentioning the Japanese brutality against its neighbors; but instead Japan is presented as the victim of U.S. aggression.
For those who forget history are bound to repeat it. Shame factor is merely an escape for the person who violated social, human conduct a way out, assuming that the violator is already feeling guilty and having the ability to self-correct. Shame is not effective as a control since the violator can always cover up, lie, move on, only to commit the same violation over and over. Open, honest and sincere apology is the only solotion to undo past wrongs. Japan should own up to it in a big way.
This is not a message to provoke hate towards the Japanese. On a person to person level, Japanese are no different than Chinese, whites or black or brown, tall or short, fat or thin, bald or hairy, male or female. I do not condone the idiotic nationalism that is brewing in China currently.
For anyone who are still interested in the incident itself, official inspection report came out:
http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20081023/989226.html
According to it, much of the story online was fake. There’s NO ONE injured. The bottle students throw out of window was not made of class but empty plastic bottle. Inside the dormitory, school security already tried to separate two angry groups. After the incidents, both sides (of students) apologized and they will not receive any punishments from the school.
It looks like that people are too quick to make decisions based on rumor and are too emotional to exaggerate a simple campus fight to national level.
Maybe ChinaSMACK can translate the official report and further news?
Well, how do you know that the “official report” isn’t fake?
Well, that’s better. I was hoping just a little that things didn’t happen *exactly* as the story described it, but the fact that such a report is even believable is evidence of a social and political problem that people on both sides should be trying to resolve.
Oh, well, I was right. Story exaggerated. Or, maybe state media tweaked the story due political reasons.
good job china! Japanese people deserve that. fuck you alll japanese in the world!!! they are the dirtiest people in the world. war crime, occupation…etc they are just fucked up people!
ShittyFaggotyBuddah,
Dude… Just so you know some people can smoke a phat sack of weed, don’t study all that much, and still get better grades than you asshole.
Sorry, I meant ShittyFaggotyButtman
No doubt China tweaked the incident, or minimized the incident which occured between two explosive ethnic groups, Chinese versus Japanese. It would be too big and embarassing an incident to allow the truth out on international press. I happen to believe the student eye witnesses more. Is it not more important to believe the eye witnesses as they are the first persons to be on the scene and might have participated in the mayhem. This is so typical of China to discredt eye witness report. Besides, this story has not been published in international media.
@USTCer
Its sad, but any reasonable being could identify the story as garbage; some rumours readily adopted by the Chinese looking for excuses to vent their anger. It’s amazing how some information as precise as two people being injured (or brutally injured, as one is led to believe) is readily adopted as fact.
Some Historians have argued we should look at the Boxer rebellion not as evidence of China’s all pervasive xenophobia, but as the venting of frustrations by some hard done by peasants during a time of drought. I think that view grossly neglects the extreme nationalism that sticks like a parasite to a very real Chinese national consciousness (or should I say: Han Chinese national consciousness?)
I wonder what would have happened had the police not arrived so swiftly at the scene, and acted in an extremely professional manner…
I’m not blind or stupid so of course I remember the ‘textbook’. I also understand (not agree with) the Japanese trying not to burden the grandchildren of the WWII generation with the gory details. It appears that the Japanese culture bears SHAME a lot harder than most others…
After all… do Shanghainese grandparents tell their grandkids , “Yes , I ratted out lots of ‘artists’ and ‘free-thinkers’ back in the pogrom days!”?? or “I was there in Shanghai stadium cheering for the executions of the unfaithful.”
WHo are the CHinese to tell other people about their own history?? Every time a laowai presents a nugget of information NOT endorsed by the state “historians” version of events, we are told to mind our own business and that we ‘don’t understand China’.
This brings us back to the university arguments turned international incident.
Do you think that every time a Chinese gets in a fracas with a white Canadian that a crowd gathers to beat that Chinese? NO.
So why are we seeking to find reasons for cowardice?
Yes, creating rallies out of this incident (in which nobody was injured) and pitting 100s of Chinese against 10 Japanese is cowardice.
If 10 guys are the problem, get 10 guys to deal with it…(or better yet, follow the security guards advice and go back to sleep).
Veer Left said, “After all… do Shanghainese grandparents tell their grandkids , “Yes , I ratted out lots of ‘artists’ and ‘free-thinkers’ back in the pogrom days!”?? or “I was there in Shanghai stadium cheering for the executions of the unfaithful.”
WHo are the CHinese to tell other people about their own history?? Every time a laowai presents a nugget of information NOT endorsed by the state “historians” version of events, we are told to mind our own business and that we ‘don’t understand China’.”
Dude, I TOTALLY agree!
If something is not state-endorsed here the people just tend to ignore it….the ignorance and doublethink (1984/Orwell) I encounter here in China astound me.
Sigh, being of Chinese descent, I really am embarrassed that I might actually have some genetic relation to these cretins…. At the same time.. I can’t help but feel pity for these idiots… Living under a veil of ignorance for decades.
Somehow I do feel it has very much to do with the emotional maturity and the level of education one receives. People who have less of the two abovementioned attributes have a much higher tendency to resort to mass hysteria and lash out violently.
It’s pretty much the same wherever I’ve lived… Malaysia, Thailand, China, even in places like UK and Australia though to varying degrees. Usually the lower less educated classes would tend to more likely lash out rather than engage in a dialouge to resolve differences.
Sometimes I wish that these “pre-evolution” distant relatives of mine could think of themselves as an individual rather than “aping” what the next mainlander does.
Oh how I weep for humanity…..lol….
@ Veer Left
You are arguing with wrong persons. I suggest you learn/practice Chinese and go to those forums and fight with those fenqing(ultra nationalists). You just assume every Chinese share same thinking and you are very wrong. I have reminded you several times on this blog that there are 1.3 billion Chinese and we are quite diverse in our opinions, so your phrase of “the Chinese what what” really offend some of us. Next time when some Chinese nationalists make you nut, go reasoning with them but please not show your ignorance coming to the conclusion that all Chinese are the same type you imagined.
And, don’t try to defend some Japanese’s deny of WWII brutality, OK? Most Chinese tried to forget that part of history and to look to future. So your offending words can only bring those memories back and infuriate some Chinese.
@ Veer Left
“After all… do Shanghainese grandparents tell their grandkids , “Yes , I ratted out lots of ‘artists’ and ‘free-thinkers’ back in the pogrom days!”?? or “I was there in Shanghai stadium cheering for the executions of the unfaithful.”
WHo are the CHinese to tell other people about their own history?? Every time a laowai presents a nugget of information NOT endorsed by the state “historians” version of events, we are told to mind our own business and that we ‘don’t understand China’.”
I’m with you 100% on that one dude. Seems hypocritical for SOME Chinese to criticize others for whitewashing history.
All this back and forth hatred is just crazy. I don’t understand why the Japanese students were so impolite as to behave like that in their host country but the reaction by many Chinese, the racial slurs, etc are just nutty, irresponsible!
Yeah, it’s like the Japanese guys were wrong in the first place and the Chinese kids wanted to see if they could behave worse than actually resolve the situation.
Like having a stupidity contest and I’d say that the gold medal goes to the Chinese students in this case!
With so much racist and self hating?/pity?/depreciating?/hates-own-race anti-chinese ramblings in the comments, I almost wished that the 10 Japanese students got beaten.
@Veer Left
10v10 only? Yeah, those other students are just going sit calmly down and elect 10 random students to get a final showdown. That’s plausible. lol.
@Ann
“No doubt … tweaked…” Really? Are you really so sure? “So typical of China to discount eye witness…” How many times have you seen internet posts that turned out to be some exaggerated rumors? I will take any formal journalism over BBS “eye witness” reporting.
@Pretender
I completely agree with your first part about people not being skeptical enough to rumors. I don’t agree your implied stance that boxer=bad. Although they are violent and xenophobic, do you think they can ask the imperial forces out in a non-violent way? At that time, China is getting owned on all sides, it is very understandable that they did what they did. If you pretend that the boxers were a legitimate army, then they are not so bad, are they, compare to the just as inhumane invaders and colonizers?
@effezzhang
And I am just as sad that I share genetic relations with someone with no spine. Even if those fenqings are irrational and mob-like, they are still 100 times better than someone who has no backbone. Who said identify oneself to something bigger than oneself is bad and ignorant? Who said individualism is good?
@haha…..Lol…. yup I’m sad as well that I actually share some gene traits with a spineless monkey who can’t even think for himself.
I don’t need another mainlander telling me individualism is good or bad. I decided that individualism is good for myself.
As for people who probably think being chinese is the epitome of humanity.. well that’s up to you…. I can only say, I’m proud to be able to see above and beyond what most chinese or even caucasians can.. so Mr.haha…. until you can really understand the meaining of “spineless” (My definition: too afraid to have a differing opinion compared to the mob)… I suggest that you travel the world abit and try to understand the world better… that is if you have the education and the cash to…. otherwise I can’t fault you for being as “spineless ” as the rest of the “mindless mob”
I’m just glad my ancestors trusted their senses and decided there was more to the world and left the “middle kingdom ” who had their peasantry stuck too far up their “Emperor/ Chairman’s arse”
I’m still a long way from being the person I want to be… but I’m happy that I’m progressing the way I want to be and the only person that I’m accountable to is myself. That my friend, is individualism…
Effezzhang is THE MAN! Great attitude, great post!
Can any english speaking person imagine, a pathetic fight, some of whom were foreigners.
Then an angry mob gathering where they imagines the foreigners to live and singing the national anthem?
Needle dick nationalism at its worst. what is the Chinese saying?
” as 1 we we are nothing but together we are a dragon”
Contemptible cowardly liitle racist scumbags
In my country we would see it as a fight, nothing more.
Get involved if it’s your friends, otherwise who cares?
Plus noboby knows the national anthem beyond the first sentence, and you would look EVEN MORE STUPID singing the same line over and over.
Plus2 have you ever seen a white guy win a fight? LOL
As my wife’s English teacher said,
“一个中国人好，一群中国人怀”
I think that this can be applied to other countries as well (see a Sarah Palin rally in the US).
One thing we have to remember that the Chinese people are going through some democratic birth pangs at the moment. Many people (esp. students) want to be more involved on the issues they care about which is a good thing, but have not learned how to organize themselves as a group in a peaceful and productive way. This is largely the fault of a political system that has out of fear of its own people discouraged independent political organization, coupled with the fact people have no trust in authorities to handle their problems. So in this case, you see a minor incident devolve into a crazy rally for Chinese pride, rather than having concerned students go to the administration as a group to ask for their help in cracking down on late night disturbances. In the heat of the moment, the students don’t call security to handle the issue because they know/think that these people won’t help them.
The Japan/China issue is another side of the same coin. As we all know their are plenty of domestic issues that many onlookers would say are much more important than the Sino-Japanese historical issue. I often ask myself why will Chinese march in the streets over a Japanese textbook, but when their own government fails to protect them (Sanlu milk powder) they wait for the inevitable and ineffective firings of a few officials and their government pay-off to keep quiet? The answer is simple. The Japan issue or other foreign policy issues are designated “free protest” issues for the Chinese people because despite short-term disruptions of the “hexie shehui”, the CCP ultimately comes out clean. Therefore, for those who want to publicly voice their opinions, foreign affairs (Carrefour boycott is another example) becomes a convenient topic. When you dam a river, it has to find another outlet. The Japanese issue is just such an outlet, and coupled with a lack of organization on the part of protesters, constantly devolves into a ridiculous patriotic mob that never really solves the problem (of course, half of the participants probably don’t know what the problem is in the first place)
And I know people are going to say “But people were angry about the Sanlu milk scandal!” Point is in the past few years, many of the most dramatic protests i.e. people in the streets, were the result of foreign affairs issues. Yes, people complained on the Internet, yes people returned the milk in droves, yes “He must have drank Sanlu milk” is still a running joke on the Internet, yes maybe their won’t be a Sanlu company anymore. But when the government authorizes a label on a product that says “This product does not need to be inspected by the government”, who is to blame? I find it funny that when they found 22 other dairy companies had products on the shelves with this same problem, the companies simply gave a discount, and people were like “sweet! cheap dairy products!” (Throwing money at the devil!) And in the end? A few firings and the review of a “food additives” law that will supposedly fix the problem with no popular oversight…I mean c’mon. Mark my words ladies and gentlemen it will happen again, it’s inevitable when you have such a close integration of big business and government. USA has the exact same problem and you see the mess we are in now. Sigh…sorry completely off topic, but this issue irks me to no end.
@AndyR- “I find it funny that when they found 22 other dairy companies had products on the shelves with this same problem, the companies simply gave a discount, and people were like “sweet! cheap dairy products!” (Throwing money at the devil!)”
No, those are the people with no other choice. Those with the means do as some of the people I know do and order from an importer who brings in Meiji dairy products from Japan. It costs over 30 kuai per liter but hey, it beats “thworing money at the devil”.
AnyR:
You have a point! In other words when Chinese are not allowed to bark at the tree with the squirrel having stolen the corn, the dog goes and barks at the wrong tree. When Chinese can’t organize and protest, they beat up others who are totally unrelated to the problem. That’s what is called misdirected anger and Chinese has plenty of it. Nationalism is a convenient way to vent it with the blessing and help of the gov’t mouth piece Xienhua.
Well, the U.S.! I am in agreememt. we need urgent oversight by the Fed. ; and yes, there will be many Salu’s waiting to take its place. It may not be milk production, it will be something else. To make money is glorious, greed is good, greed is right, greed works……(Wall Street, movie with Michael Douglas on immitation of Ivan Boesky.) Both China and U.S. can learn a good less from the current economic debacle.
Most security guards in China are racist criminals, just like the students in this story.
I used to live at SISU
Please, someone explain… Taiwan had an even longer occupation by Japan than the Mainland. Japan was brutal, totalitarian, violent, and oppressive in Taiwan and even though it lucked out in not being the center of the Anti-Japanese war, like China was, for it’s size and population, it suffered, there was genocide, women were raped en masse; all of this lasting far longer than it did in Mainlad China. Of course, there is still major resentment in Taiwan today towards Japan, people still make comments against Japanese, protest againts the Japanese govt, and if a Japanese person walked into the wrong bar or said the wrong thing , they might get beat up. However, do you ever hear of anti-Japanese hystery such as what pops up in China every now and then, happening in Taiwan? Are there any restaurants in Taipei with signs saying “No Japanese Dogs” as there are in Harbin? Do Japanese businesses in Kaoshiung have to board up their stores/ offices or evacuate their staff whenever some idiot politician visits Yasakuni like they’d have to do in Guangzhou? Why do these places deal with this so differently?
Chinese were worse to Taiwanese after Japan left.
The photos show that the incident was at the Shangwai Hongkou campus, not its Songjiang campus where nearly all undergraduate students are.
The only students who live on the Hongkou campus are (i) international students who choose not to live outside, and stay in the SISU “guesthouse” there, (ii) undergraduates at Xianda College, a fee-paying offshoot of SISU for students who haven’t got the grades to make it into SISU “proper” but whose parents are willing to fork out the cash. There are occasional issues with arrogant parents of Xianda students believing they can drive all over the campus to pick their progeny up, and just tell people to get out of the way.
SISU Hongkou campus is a dump, and by no means feels like an actual university. The only interesting thing going on there is GIIT, China’s top interpretation institute, which is tiny and extremely low profile.
@effezzhang
First, never did I say that individualism is all bad and nationalism is all good.
Second, how arrogant are you? “I’m proud to be able to see above and beyond what most chinese or even caucasians can.” Wow! Your ideas are so old, and there is nothing new and independent about it. Individualism has been promoted to death for a long time now, and it’s currently the mainstream or the “mob” view, so nothing rebel and above-the-crowd about your views. Don’t get so high, ok?
My question is, did you really independently examine individualism and collectivism to see that the former is always the best? From the shallowness of your cliche statements, you seem to have just adopted the individualism out of association with the west and therefore “moderness”. Do what you recommend me to do.
@AndyR
I agree with most of your sentiments. However, most people in any kind of public demonstration will have a very shallow view of the concerned issue.
They probably don’t know much outside the slogans that they are repeating endlessly. Another form of “brainwashing”? Why the protests are used on well thought out issues, then good. But it’s just as likely they are not well thought out and become a mob.
@Mike
It’s very true that CCP encouraged the anti-japanese sentiment, but is it not also true that KMT, or Lee Teng Hui specifically, and DDP recently purposefully toned down the sentiment and discouraged focus on offensive Japanese actions out of political reasons. Taiwan needs allies against mainland. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right?
EZhang and Haha, both of you are wrong…
Both collectivism and individualism are doomed to failure. First, individualism is nothing but an illusion. You are merely going with the ebb and flow of society.
Collectivism has already been demonstrated to fail. Try to come up with the machinery that is both consistence and complete to optimally decide as a collective… impossible.
Both collective and individualism is achievable in a hunter and gather, or even sustenance farming society. For in such a society the domination and control of entropy is minimal, thus is workable. F
Our world on the other hand is defined by the controlling and domination of entropy… Which is ultimately an intractable excercise.
To summarize: We are doomed. But it’s not so bad. It’s the natural order of the universe.
@C*Inkunitarseho,
Hogwash, entropy? What the hell are you talking about, big word but meaningless. Individualism is relative and some what abstract in practice. In a crowded densely populated society, it is inevitable that one gets bumped up to another human being sooner or later with more or less the same idea and way of thinking and behaving. However, individualims allows for separateness as a choice in making decision. Individualism is never meant that there is no other like me in this big wide world, rather it means there is a bigger distance between some one like me and me. U.S. and Western culture is more tolerant and supportive of individualism. You have confused collectivism with conformity. Collectivism is about working together and sharing the benefit of what is produced, a economic way of organizing human activity. Corformity is about social norms and behaviors towards each other as a prefered way in the functioning of a society. Conformity is highly valued in some societies for the sake of social harmony as in Japan, China and Korea. The downside is there is tremendous pressure for mass think and action, and intolerance of people who behave differently. Cormformity at times can turn people into highly critical and intolerant individuals of those who make independent choices. The fear factor of rejection by members of the group coerces members into behaving like a mindless mob for good or bad. For those who choose non-conformity/individualism can find themselves ostracised, and at times to the extreme of committing suicide when no escape is possible. The suicide of a very popular Korean actress is the perfect example to the consequence of being an non-conforming member of a highly conforming soiciety.
whats all the fuss? Seems to my the typical ethnic brawl that happens here every friday night gone wrong thats all haha.
however, in all seriousness i an a little concerned with the fact that Chinese are being left in in your discussions. more on that later, first,
@Ann
most of your posts tends to deal with a fairly standard assessment of Chinese nationalism based on state sponsorship. Thats fine. However some of the newer views in academia are starting to move away from this’ top down’ narrative, particularly in light of the effect of the internet on Chinese youth and the rise of the grass root level ‘Cyber Nationalist’, an entity which the government essentially has no control over and is in many cases counterproductive to the state. Also, this traditional view (and by extension yours) has not explained why many (not all of course) younger overseas Chinese (1.5 and 2nd generation) tend to be supportive/defensive not only of China as a nation but the Chinese government as well, despite having grown up in Western/non Chinese societies .
as stated above, my main issue with all the post here is the fact that Chinese themselves have been wholly removed from most of the discussions and assessments on this topic. to me thats rather insulting to their intellect. These are living, breathing THINKING people. Sure they live under a totalitarian system with a powerful propaganda organ and a generally indoctrinating education system, but the important point that i think many of you missed, is that the people KNOW its propaganda (which is much more than i could say for certain sections of my country). Propaganda in China is rather overt, and the people know misinformation exist and therefore has a choice in whether they accept it or not. the curious thing is, they generally do accept government lines. Why is that?
Im from Australia and i find a rather interesting comparison can be made of this episode aand the Cronulla ‘race riots’ against middle eastern peoples (google it. Although, call me a racist if you will but i do challenge the notion that it was wholly racist) of course they are not completely compatible but both were basically mob mentality gone out of control. Yet Cronulla did not bring with is as much politics as this incident did. its as if being under a totalitarian government automatically makes it a much more sinister and serious event.
and finally at @Chua
Warren?? Tim?? is that you?!
@ c*inkunitarseho
You may have a point there in regards to individualism, in a way it can be considered a “movement”, where more and more people adopt such practices to varying degrees.
However that being said, I was never interested in how individualism will benefit society. To me individualism allows me to differentiate myself from the rest of the crowd. Throughout my Uni and career years it has always helped to give me an edge over both local and western students in terms of grades and career progressions.
@Anne
True as a kid, I had a hard time assimilating into my school (somewhere in asia…) given my unortodox way of thinking and the surrounding norms but that was because I never realised that being an individual who decides what’s good or bad for him/herself was a potential path. People rather be the good law abiding and productive citizen… School was tough in some ways, but at the same time it has given me the luxury of forging lifelong friends, real friends.
By my first year in highschool I witnessed how the Asian Financial Crisis struck. I saw how being a productive citizen in Indonesia (close by) didn’t save your family from being pillaged, I many of my firends parents who were mostly decent folk being the first to be laid off. So essentially I could have lived a pretty comfy and set out life in my country of origin but I will always be at the mercy of a mob mentality. I decided to leave. When I was at uni in Australia I noticed that although there were any cliques as there were in Asia, people were more tolerant of differing views. Call it cliche, but cliches do exist for a reason no?
Anyways, I do thank my chinese ancestors to have thought me the value of prudence, but I also have my adopted western countries to thank for for other values. The result??
I’m quite happywith life now… mid 20’s , pretty decent paying job and a nice cozy townhouse, a not so nice 2nd hand mx-5 who competes for my attention with the significant other and a safe buffer of cash to last myself a year or so if unemployment ever hits. I may not be a millionaire, but I’m definitely living a better quality of life than 95% of my ex-schoolmates. And I do feel that there is much potential for me to grow further.
So @ haha, I’m mostly content with my life thank you. I still have many areas that I can improve, but I’ll do it at my own rate. I was simply recommending you travel around the world abit as I feel that somehow, you’ve been deprived of the opportunity of living abroad with different people.
I do sympathise with you because I would have very likely ended up like you, an evolutionary “dead end” if I had chose to “conform” with the acceptable norms and thinking of an asian education system.
Samuel:
I am knowledgeable of the changing environment in terms of access to information and the subsequent better informed Chinese youths and their skepticism of thier government’s propaganda. More importantly is the question who Chinese are so prone to mass movement at the slightest provacation. It seems they are easily stoked to act emotionally, and not enough distance is accorded to filter out rumours etc. before taking acting. I would ascribe it to the frustration of the youths having to survive in a repressive society, in the lack of a healthy place to vent. Perhaps in this case, the internet is a good place for venting without serious consequence. My other question iI have is that while the government is quick to condemn those who do not toll the line, why is it that the Chinese commenters here as a small measurement of Chinese sentiment are also quick to condermn and set blames.
Personally, I think it is the psychological make-up of Chinese living in a repressive society as the factor. They are deprived of the opportunity for self-direction and self-examination. They live in a world of being told what is right or wrong by to their teachers, government, government sponsored news media. To be honest and true, I would also acknowledge that some Chinese have establlished themselves as independent thinkers, e.g. the human rights activists in China. They are the exception.
Corrections who to why, acting to action:
More importantly is the question “why” Chinese are so prone to mass movement at the slightest provacation. It seems they are easily stoked to act emotionally, and not enough distance is accorded to filter out rumours etc. before taking “action’.
@Ann
do these ‘independent thinkers’ think human rights because they are independent, or are they independent (or at least perceived to be) because they think human rights?
Had too much wine for dinner. Your questions sounds too complicated to process at the moment. May be someone else can fill in.
@ Samuel,
Excellent post. I think Ann, and a lot of people here, have forgotten the whole point behind this website offering so many translated comments. We’re supposed to get an idea of what Chinese people (netizens) are thinking and how they think through this.
I fully agree that while we cannot discount the socialization many mainland Chinese go through, they’re not mindless automatons either. Some people are too willing to dismiss all forms of nationalism as being reflexes conditioned by the state as opposed to any genuine reflex on the individual level. Again, this is not to say all the education, propaganda, and environment doesn’t lend itself to reinforcing sometimes blind nationalism, but some people certainly aren’t giving the Chinese enough credit as human beings and individuals capable of free choice.
We can argue that Chinese students abroad may be fulfilling the programming of their earlier years but that’s a simplistic explanation. Could it be that Chinese people actually are proud of their country, despite its existing warts? Is it wrong for Chinese people to still be proud of their country and their current government for whatever they HAVE managed to accomplish? Is it so difficult to understand that Chinese people might feel defensive about their country and government when they feel it being attacked from many different sides? Depending on the “criticisms” or “attacks,” whether rational or legitimate, it is all too human to feel defensive, right?
Anyway, great comment. Note how she dodged your question, though. She’s a wily one.
@ effezhang:
MX-5, eh? Must be a car-guy. TheCarLounge.com much? :)
@ Ann:
Ann, you’re quick on condemning and blaming as well. Do you not recognize your own human proclivities? How intellectually-dishonest can you get, man? Geez.
@ Ann:
Oh, I almost forgot. Why are you enjoying wine at dinner? Weren’t you ranting about people in some countries having too much while others having too little? Shouldn’t you and your bleeding-heart forgo the wine and contribute that money to the Sichuan earthquake victims or other impoverished children slaving away in factories being exploited by unscrupulous, evil bosses?
How dare you sit around idly drinking wine (apparently enough for cloud your thinking so that simple questions to become “complicated”) while poor people in the world suffer further indignities? What happened to all your entreaties about inequality and excesses in the world?
@ Ann:
When you have the conviction to stand behind the bullshit you’re spewing in the vast majority of these comments, please reply to my questions in the Wuhan Child Labor post instead of running away the moment someone calls you out on the nonsense you accuse others of.
There is a difference between the way Chinese deal with criticism towards their government and their poor social condition, and others living in democratic nations. Criticising governments and social conditions is a fair game as it is a form of measure of how the government is performing its job. No head of state can avoid being lampooned, George W., Blair and Brown, Sakorzy, and more. Chinese react similarly to some extremist Muslims upon criticism of their government. The case in point about Muslims is when a Danish cartoonist drew Mohamed with a bomb on his head, or the film producer who made a movie about the mistreatment of Muslim women, many Muslims called for blood. While Chinese had not gone to that extent, their hyper sensitivity to foreign criticism is of the same auto reflex reaction.
Actually Kai, I think some of what Ann is saying here makes sense to me. Hear me out and see what you think.
I’ve just been catching up on this thread, and a lot of what I’m reading about education and the ability to think or be automatons reminds me of a book I read back in university by Paulo Friere.
His ideas about education were that there were two basic types: “banking education” and “problem posing education”.
The former is what I witness in Chinese classes (at least at the high school level, and in my school, which isn’t to say that it goes for everywhere in the country). Basically the student is an empty glass. The teacher pours knowledge into that glass, then the student pours it back out again in the same form on a test/exam.
“Problem posing education” assumes that the student is already a full glass with many ideas of his/her own; the teacher asks the student to think critically and solve problems on his/her own.
WHat Friere wrote is that many of what some people would call “repressive/opressive regimes” don’t want the masses to be able to think critically about the world around them because that leads them the understanding that the world around them could be better…which is a problem for the regime…
What I see in China is NOT automatons who mindlessly follow everything they’re told. I see thinking and feeling people who have never been taught HOW to think on their own, never been taught how to think independantly. So they maybe have it in their nature to accept things a little more readily.
Of course, there are students (and people) who can do it just fine – some people are naturally gifted/intelligent/curious and they want to see and think and analyze, and have ideas of their own. Still, there are others who don’t/can’t/won’t.
You have no idea how hard it it for some of our students to make this leap into creative thinking and problem solving.
This post was maybe a little rambling, mostly because I’m not entirely sure what I think about the topic – I was just reminded of this book so I thought I’d open that up to discussion since I think it’s interesting.
@Ann
Americans didn’t want to buy French products b/c they was against war in Iraq. They were burning French flags, and changed name of French fries. Almost every month, Arab and African people start local wars in Paris against government.
I think you hate your own country more than you love USA.
@Teacher in China
You are right. Students will become what is poured in their head. That’s not Chinese, or oppressive regimes specialty. Every society tries to educate kids in way that it feels proper.
In USA, kids are full of patriotic shit of greatest of all democracy, etc, etc… In UK, kids learns that they are the most civilized of all the nation…. In every society, kids are told myths, and kids believes in that myths. It is the way how culture is passed from generation to generation.
Primer: In CH kids are taught that “CH is poor country, so they must to work and earn”. In Yugoslavia kids are taught that “we are rich country, where everything is fine”.
It is states of France and Germany that stopped centuries of hate. They close the chapter of hostility, and opened chapter of cooperation.
What do you mean by CH? Switzerland or China?
I dislike the way Chinese authority is treating her own people 800 million of them. Authority I mean provincial as well as national. I dislike the Iraq war and many other current issues going on in U.S. This blog is about China, as such I……
@Ann
So, it is OK to compare Chinese people with “blood calling Muslims”, but not with USA or France citizens?
I would ask Fauna to implement audio preview of comments, same as youtube have: http://www.xkcd.com/481/
You know, when I talk to Americans, Britons, French, Germans,… none of them would say anything bad against their country and government, no matter how bad government are. They always think about image of their country.
Smauel:
I am ready to answer about the link between independent thinkg and human rights. Let say it is not a horse and cart situation, rather it is the chicken or the egg.
I don’t know what kind of scenario you were in in saying that Americans, Brits, French, German do not talk poorly of their own countries. Was it an alcohol infused conversation, and what was the context of the conversation?
@Ann
Any situation. So, after being sexist, genocide and rape supporter, with tendencies to corrupt, now I’m alcoholic.
@ Kai
Hmm….. not too active a forumer for cars, however good point.. will be checking Carlounge.com out… Thankies…
That being said I’m an mx-5 fan because I generally like am very much in love with open tops and the mx-5 is not only a pure bred sports vehicle, but it’s also very balanced and fun to drive. I find personally driving a luxury marque or even monstrosities like a Nissan Skyline will put myself in the trying “too hard to look good” group..lol…
So in end…. little, nimble, cheerful….. the motto for old girl (the car that is….)
I wish I could afford the new generation ones though, but with the economic climate looking pretty dull… looks like it’s gonna be a good 3-4 years later…oh well…
Well, since I’ off topic.. loggin out peeps,
Ciao
@ Teacher in China:
Whoa, be very careful before you start going to bat for Ann. You’re reading way too much rational intelligence into what Ann has said and you’re thinking way too kindly about what she’s trying to say. There are far better people representing your thoughts than Ann, including myself.
I have no doubts about how socialization affects the individual, and I have already stated that education, propaganda, etc. will certainly affect how people react to given stimuli. Likewise, there ARE people who are NATURALLY more adept at critical thought (Ann is not one of them, see her comments in other posts). We both agree on this. My point, in support of Samuel, is to be careful of completely dismissing the very real possibility that many Chinese people genuinely love their country or their government and feel genuinely defensive when they encounter criticism from others, particularly people in “the West” whom they feel are disturbingly ignorant about what life in China is like.
These very same people even often criticize their own government and country when talking amongst themselves. Sure, it is annoying that they seemingly congeal together the moment a dissenting voice is non-Chinese, but to categorically assume any defense of China by Chinese people as being a state-programmed response is a bit disingenuous and treats Chinese people like idiots. In many cases, such an accusation by someone says more about the accuser than the Chinese person being accused. It smacks of someone who feels it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else to have a different thought/feeling/position than what the accuser holds dear.
“Like, OMG, how could they possibly love their own China?! Isn’t it, like, OBVIOUS that it is a monolithic, repressive propaganda state with, like, ZERO, hope for its citizens?!? Like, duh!”
People who hold onto this conception of China do a disservice to the Chinese people, treating them like idiots. If there is a problem to be solved (and there are many), the first step is not to MISUNDERSTAND or REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND the actual problem. Too many non-Chinese (like Ann) prefer to ASSUME that all Chinese (if they were, you know, “human”) would agree with every criticism, complaint, and prescription by those seeking to fix China.
To be sure, there are plenty of idiots in China who have failed to think critically but an honest discussion begins when you first give the other side the benefit of the doubt and assume they are as capable of rational thought as you are. When there are disagreements, there ought to be some evaluation before jumping to the “you’re an idiot who can’t think for yourself” conclusion. A difference of opinion alone is not enough. A Chinese person who thinks the CCP, despite all its flaws, have managed to actually help conditions in China improve over the past 20-30 years and is happy about it is NOT necessarily a Communist drone (At that point, you ask them if the misery of the Cultural Revolution was necessary to get China to this point or not, heh). It is a bad start to immediately doubt the sincerity of what the other side says.
Again, there are many valid and legitimate criticisms of problems in China, but assuming right off the bat that any Chinese who is defensive of China to be a robot automaton reciting the propaganda of the central government is a lazy way of assessing the problem of engaging the Chinese in rational discourse regarding the problems China needs to overcome.
Ann is so far from actually understanding this that I BEG you to avoid making her feel like she is saying anything remotely wise and intelligent beyond what has already been said by far more rational and non-hypocritical individuals on this website.
This has gone WAY off topic. Hooray.
Ann
I think you’ve misunderstood my ‘question’ which wasn’t really a question at all but rather a comment to highlight something that i noticed in your reply. basically you commented that there are ‘independent thinkers’ emerging in China because they are speaking about human rights. this ‘link’ as it were, is pretty obvious since it goes against the grain. these human right activists are therefore subversive and as such ‘thinkers’ rather than ‘ignorants’.
this assumption is pretty common even in western societies where liberals are generally perceived to be somehow more intelligent and more independent by the simple virtual of being ‘liberals’ (or ’support for the liberal movement’).
coming back to my point, i think its rather naive to simply say ‘oh he is for human rights, he must be an independent thinker, and this guy is rather patriotic and defensive about his government, he must be brainwashed’. as you’ve stated yourself you are aware of the growning access to foreign information and ideas by Chinese. its entirely possible that such human rights activist were simply inspired by and subsequently conforming to populist liberal ideals of the west, rather than really think about contemporary Chinese society and ways to improve its condition.
there is ‘human rights’, and then there is ‘human rights’ after all.
By simply dismissing any show of support for their government as not thinking independently is a dangerous proposition in that it alienates these people and further exacerbates misunderstandings between cultures.
This is stupid.
At worst, a drunken brawl. Any reason why these Chinese nationalists look for ANY excuse to get into a fist fight? The inability to look dignified and composed is the reason for the perpetual stereotype that China is a nation of barbaric violent fustrated militants. If anything, this was a stupid dorm room fight. Why are these nationalists treating it like the Cultural Revolution? At least have something to fight about. When are they going to learn that patriotism does NOT equal fistfights with people who AREN’T Chinese?
As far as i remember, these individuals who are complaining about foriegners making trouble in their “homelands” forgot about the riots that Chinese students stirred up, where they beat up innocent mothers and grandmothers, elderly and young. Did they forget that?
Why must nationalism “naturally” permutate into violence? If not for the fact that these young nationalists don’t have the proper means to express their nationalism except for the barbaric act of violence?
Its obvious and out in the open for all to see from the report and many others like it, Chinese people look for any opportunity to get ‘one up’ on any other nationality or perceived ethnic group. Once thats over, they turn on each other!
@krdr
“You know, when I talk to Americans, Britons, French, Germans,… none of them would say anything bad against their country and government, no matter how bad government are. They always think about image of their country.”
I can’t speak for the other countries, but man c’mon people have been soooooooo critical of the Bush government for the last…oh….8 years?! And they’ve been critical in a very straight-forward, in your face, frequently insulting manner. That’s the nature of politics in the US and Canada these days. If you’re not critical of something in the government, you’re a social leper.
Maybe you mean that they’re not critical when talking to people of other countries? Again, my experience has been otherwise, especially with US/Bush talk.
Perhaps you should look at the concept of nationalism and the construct of the ‘nation’ itself (an idea invented in the 17th century and began to take foot in China in the early 20th century. Thats right, there were no nations before the 17th century) rather than calling these people stupid.
when has a high dose of nationalism not permutated into unnecessary violence?
above post @stupidbs
zz wtf i didnt change my name..
@Ann,
You didn’t pay attention to what I’m saying. Collectivism: proven to not work! How do you organize A COMPLEX SYSTEM such as a society by regulating everything???
How old are you?
@EFChang:
Individualism works in a hunter-gather society… In our society, no. Your other definition of individualism is total b.s. Again, won’t work in OUR MODERN DAY SOCIETY. You think you are an individual, but you ARE NOT. There are many factors involved here…
The moral of the story is modern society is doomed to fail. We’re trying to control entropy. It’s impossible.
@krdr RE: “You know, when I talk to Americans, Britons, French, Germans,… none of them would say anything bad against their country and government”
You’re nuts, maybe you don’t speak to them in a way or about a topic which this becomes an issue – but uh..trust me, people from western nations LOVE to critique their own governments. I criticize Canada all the time. I acknowledge the good, of which there is a lot, but I am fully willing to criticize all of the bad. Most of my friends are the same about their own countries, it’s not just a “bad bad bad” or “good good good” – but a relatively balanced perspective, averaging of course since individuals have more/less love/distaste for their own nation.
@Fuller You’re right.
@Ann and Rick
I didn’t hear any US citizens to say: We are so shitty country, we have Bush as president, we all are just bunch of stupid guys… It is more like to say: Yeah, he made mistakes, but we are still the greatest country on the world.
Brits are: “That’s our problem”. Italians, if they dislikes government would rather not to talk about it, but did you see Pipo’s goal last Saturday…
Attitude is different.
Maybe, today is a fashion to be against Bush and pro Obama. Maybe, Bush is so bad that people have inner urge to talk about him, but they are still proud citizens of USA.
Rick (you are Canadian, aren’t you?), if you don’t like your Prime Minister, you’ll not tell me that Canada is worst of all countries, or anything what Ann said about China (as I presume, she is Chinese).
@ krdr:
Thanks for illustrating a point I was hoping people could understand. People from anywhere will default to being defensive about their countries. How willing they are to engage in reasonable discussions about their country’s problems is another thing. We like to pick on Chinese youth being really defensive about China, but to be honest, there are just as many ignorant and blindly patriotic (or nationalistic) youth in many other countries, especially the United States. Doesn’t anyone remember those mid-western youth driving around in their trucks harassing Middle-Easterners after 9/11?
I won’t deny that Chinese people on a whole seem to be far more defensive and less willing to engage in reasoned discourse than many other countries. I do wonder if it is like that simply because there are so many more Chinese or if there really is relatively more Chinese people who are simply incapable of discussing China’s faults/shortcomings without resorting to being insecure, defensive, and immature. I’m not sure. We can only be sure that “angry youth” certainly are loud.
I think this really depends on who you meet. I think a good amount of Americans and Westerners who travel abroad are capable of trying to be objective when discussing their own country’s problems but I think most will defend their country the moment the opposing opinion becomes too extreme, when the other side is no longer interested in just discussing the problem and seems intent on trashing a country.
I think a lot of defensive Chinese are this way. For many Chinese, it feels like the West and Westerners are constantly complaining, criticizing, and pointing out why China is not as good as their own countries. It has built up to a point where they will react with the same anger and defensiveness towards ANYONE who makes a comment about China they don’t like, even those who want to have and are capable of having an honest and mutually respectful discussion. Feeling attacked yet again, Chinese (like others) often resort to attacking back, trying to “show” the other side how they are also bad, hoping to remove the moral pedestal they think the other side is standing on.
All of the emotions are quite human, I think. Yes, there’s propaganda and misinformation by the government, but I’m not really sold on the idea that the Chinese reaction is wholly state-programmed. I think most people in the world behave similarly.
There’s no requirement to hate your own country in order to acknowledge and recognize its own faults.
That said, I’m not really sure what you (krdr) are asking Rick or Ann to say.
@Kai
Question is quite simple: If their country is currently headed by dumb guy, should they be ashamed of whole country? Sure, Ann is ashamed of Bush, does it means that she should be ashamed of USA?
@krdr RE: “Rick (you are Canadian, aren’t you?), if you don’t like your Prime Minister, you’ll not tell me that Canada is worst of all countries”
You’re taking it to extremes to make your point, which makes your point invalid. People don’t say “MY COUNTRY IS SO SHITTY”, that was never my point, nor anything I said. Read again:
“Most of my friends are the same about their own countries, it’s not just a “bad bad bad” or “good good good” – but a relatively balanced perspective, averaging of course since individuals have more/less love/distaste for their own nation.”
*sigh* I don’t know how you can take that and compare it to “We are so shitty country, we have Bush as president, we all are just bunch of stupid guys”.
@Kai RE: “but I think most will defend their country the moment the opposing opinion becomes too extreme”
I agree with your points, and don’t think there’s any contradiction between my points. I think it’s rightful to stop people in their tracks when they are intent on being offensive or too extreme. That being said, you also mention that here, it becomes a point where it’s not just an extreme criticism – but any criticism which is met with strong opposition and force, any at all, all too often. That’s the whole point I’m trying to make, but krdr is intent on taking that point and reading it as all-or-nothing as opposed to the whole idea of having a different “line in the sand” with modern foreign nationals being, on average, on a much more lenient to criticism side. (not going to mention the extreme westerners who have never left, like, western Pennsylvania.)
@ Kai
Ok, I admit it, I am actually Ann in disguise trying to add some legitimacy to her arguments ;)
The fact of the matter is that when someone flip flops and has such varying view points they’re bound to hit something useful eventually. This is the part I read (along with other posts from other users) that started me thinking about Friere:
They (Chinese youth) are deprived of the opportunity for self-direction and self-examination. They live in a world of being told what is right or wrong by to their teachers, government, government sponsored news media
Again, from what I see in my situation is that my students in their Chinese classes are not given the opportunity to think for themselves. It’s simply assimilation and regurgitation of facts and old Chinese poems and math formulas. There’s no application; no thinking on a higher level of Bloom’s taxonomy.
At one point in your post you state:
an honest discussion begins when you first give the other side the benefit of the doubt and assume they are as capable of rational thought as you are. When there are disagreements, there ought to be some evaluation before jumping to the “you’re an idiot who can’t think for yourself” conclusion
Now I’m a little rusty on the book I was talking about, but I’m sure that I didn’t imply anywhere that Chinese people were idiots. Just because someone is involved in the “banking education” system doesn’t make them idiots. What I see in my situation are not idiotic students. I see very bright and capable people who simply hit a wall when faced with something involving application, synthesis or evaluation. My interest in this discussion comes from the fact that I think that method of education creates a certain type of people. Now, are Chinese these types of people? I think yes and no. I think they were for sure. I think modern Chinese are changing a lot now, and the education system just hasn’t caught up with that yet.
I think most of your post was directed at Ann though, as I went out of my way to say that I didn’t think Chinese people were automatons…
@krdr
You are right. Students will become what is poured in their head. That’s not Chinese, or oppressive regimes specialty. Every society tries to educate kids in way that it feels proper.In USA, kids are full of patriotic shit of greatest of all democracy, etc, etc… In UK, kids learns that they are the most civilized of all the nation…. In every society, kids are told myths, and kids believes in that myths. It is the way how culture is passed from generation to generation.
I disagree. It’s not done to the same extent in the west (at least not in Canada anyway) as it is here. For example, we have a historical figure by the name of Louis Riel – he’s very controversial as some people think he was a traitor and some think he was a hero. In history class, the teacher lets the student decide what he/she thinks about that Riel. As long as the student can argue his/her point logically, no problem. When we’re studying poetry, we’re not told to memorize a poem and regurgitate it on a test or exam for marks. That’s totally pointless and doesn’t achieve anything. We analyze it, and again the students are allowed to come to conclusions that differ from the teacher as long as they can back up their arguments with sufficient evidence. In math, we’re not just showing that we memorized the formula and can plug different numbers into it and calculate the result, we apply the formulas to different things (forgive me if this one is weak, math isn’t my specialty).
@Rick
Nor I said that was your point. It is Ann’s point. I put two of you in same basket, which I shouldn’t. Receive my apologies.
@Teacher in China
I’m not expert in Canadian educational system, so I’m thankful on your insight. What you’ve missed is:
Every society tries to educate kids in way that it feels proper.
Canada feels that is proper to educate kids in the way you described. I personally think that is good way.
Here, in Europe, every nation have sets of myths. Some countries insist more, some less. In “myths”, I also considered how some nation see themselves. Serbs sees themselves as heroic and clever, Italians as great lovers, cooks and singers. Spaniards as passionate ones.
@ krdr:
No, they should not necessarily be ashamed of their whole country because a “country” is much more than just its government. A person should only be “ashamed of their whole country” if they hate more things about their country than they like about it. So, for example, an American can hate Bush or even problems within America, but they do not necessarily need to hate America as a country or concept. The same can be said for Chinese people in China.
I think we’re thinking the same thing but we’ve misunderstood each other’s English.
@ Rick in China:
As I said above, I think we’re having communication problems with krdr because English is not his native language. I suspect we actually agree but the way he tried explaining certain things led us to misunderstand what point he’s trying to make.
I think we largely agree, especially that different people have different limits. The main problem, I see, with a lot of “defensive” Chinese is an inability to differentiate when one can have a reasoned discussion with a non-Chinese, when ignoring the Westerner is appropriate, and when that foreigner may need to be reminded that their shit stinks too. But as I elaborated above, I believe there are very understandable, very human, reasons for what we typically consider insecure, unreasonable, defensive Chinese behavior. We have to hope that the Chinese as a whole can start rising above it, and feel more secure and confident in having point-driven discussions rather than mutual mud-slinging and whining. I believe as China comes into its place in the world, and with time, this should improve.
@ Teacher in China:
Blasphemy! Ann reminds me of the worst stereotypes of the “Westerners” that piss off the most intellectual and rational Chinese people. She delights in casting blame and judgment without trying to understand the actual problems she thinks she has the answers for.
Anyway, the great irony was her flip-flopping until she was claiming to be arguing for the very principles/points she was originally condemning. Sigh.
The part you quoted me was not directed at you personally. I was just expounding on my point. It was not an accusation against you specifically. The “you” was not personal. I trust you understood my points though. My comment would, of course, be applicable to anyone who thinks Chinese people are categorically brainwashed idiots.
I agree that the Chinese education system and cultural socialization tends to emphasize certain things (like rote memorization) differently than other countries and cultures. There are well-researched notable but general benefits and disadvantages for these various systems, most of which we’ve all heard a zillion times before.
My personal belief is that increased globalization and the ease of communicating with people from different parts of the world (via, say, the internet) is going to affect the socialization of Chinese in profound ways. This isn’t going to make Chinese people turn into “Westerners” with the same “Western” ideology and modes of thought, much less overnight, but it will have an effect. If there’s one thing I think many of the posts here on chinaSMACK evidence is that Chinese people are NOT all brainwashed automatons and they have a wide spectrum of opinions, thoughts, and ideas, many of which do NOT tow the Communist party line.
I think many Westerners PREFER to dumb down the Chinese and think of them as all victims of the evil monolithic propaganda state. It is easier to do this because it isolates a single “enemy” and creates a dynamic where the “enlightened Westerner” is fighting the good fight trying to unshackle the “poor brainwashed Chinese” from some abstract evil and ignorance. This is not to say there is no ignorance or evil, but this is a TERRIBLE dehumanizing platform to build a relationship between the two sides on.
@Kai
Yes, we are on same line about this.
is this Ann person white or chinese?
in any case she’s a real nutter.
@Kai
Agreed completely! :)
@krdr
Ok I see. I just think the way that the Chinese have chosen to educate isn’t applicable anymore. It may have been in the past – from what I understand things have been much the same since people studied and memorized exams to get into the emperor’s court. I also understand that things seem to be changing at the younger age levels. Elementary school teachers are apprently more likely to institute more creative and/or interesting approaches in their classrooms. Hopefully, this continues so that we don’t see people sleeping in politics class anymore… ;)
@Teacher
Not only the China have same problem. Lot of East Europe education systems facing same problems. You can not teach old dogs new tricks, so, to reform the system, new kind of teachers are needed.
Serbia started reform of high education according to Bologna declaration. Reforms failed due strong resist from older professors.
Truth is that reforms in education should never stops. It is continuous process.
Chinese are so immature, give it another 50 years every child will start to sing da national anthem whenever they are bitten by an insect….had a cold…or got scolded by their mother
Meh. The Japs should not cause trouble in a foreign country, yes, but the Chinese cannot draw blood. It is hard to restrain, but it will cause big incident if we were to beat them to death. One we are not willing to make, as we need the Japanese, despite everything, as our friends. We need the Koreans as our friends. We need as many people as possible as our friends.
Nor should we go and sing the National Anthem to wake up the International House. We were troubled by the Japanese from sleep, so we go and wake the rest of the foreigners as well? That is extreme stupidity, and this is university. Lynching people is merely a short term option.
I’m glad that the security knows what TRUE Chinese values are, and that the important people in charge know this as well.
I’m now speechless.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081101.JAPAN01/TPStory/?query=shino+yuasa
Associated Press, with a report from the Guardian
November 1, 2008
Japan’s Defence Minister dismissed his air force chief yesterday for writing an essay that claims the country was not an aggressor in the Second World War and was trapped into getting involved by the United States.
And the armies of Mao Zedong and Kim Il-Sung brought Imperial Japan to its knees
@Kai
Apparently I have a Chinese doppelganger! This was on the latest Chinasmack story as a translated Chinese post:
“When I got to university, in the midst of different events and activities, I finally realised I did not know how to do anything, that I had to think on my own, and it was very difficult to have my own ideas. It was then that I realized that we have already lost our creativity. Who should be blamed? I think the teachers are innocent, and the blame lies on the whole society’s education system.”
@ Teacher in China:
Nah, a lot of Chinese people feel that way. Have you seen the post about Tsinghua university’s website being hacked? More there.
@Kai
Yeah I did see that one. Hilarious! That hacker is my hero.
The difference between your average Chinese person and a civilized one: An amazing ability to over-react.
Have a party at night out of doors and they’ll flip their lid. Me? Well, I don’t sleep too well most nights. If it’s not the students living above me playing some sort of screaming game, then it’s the gate guards talking noisily outside my window while sitting on my electric bicycle and smoking, or the construction workers next door banging away on something at 2:30 in the morning. I’ve offered a non-confrontational “Please be quiet, we’re sleeping. Thank you.” How offen does that work with these inconsiderate Chinese? Rarely.
It is so obvious that these japanese are stupid.
I think the Chinese reaction was stupider.
Maybe China needs to get raped one more time…
Maybe Korea needs to be occupied and colonized by the Japs again, and take Japanese names and provide some comfort women…or maybe just split it up into two harmless entities, oh wait, nevermind…
Well, as I see, behind a riot for drunkness there is a lot of racial hate…I have been living in different countries and now I am living in Japan. In here I am foreigner and I will always be considered like that, but the situation is not different in Europe..A Chinese will be always considered an “almond eyes person” and not an European. We also have a lot of nationalism and in general each countries hate other countries and there’s a lot of ethnic controversy.
And by the way, Chinese are not beloved in Europe, not even in my country, Italy, where we experienced some troubles in Milano, where the local community (frustrated also by the racist attitude of Italian) decided to make a small revolution: they burnt the Italian flags and took out Chines ones screaming “this is not Italy this is Chinese territory!”…….no comment about that.
What I am trying to say is that it’s so stupid to see people blaming other countries people if they misact or misbehave. Why don’t you start to look at the “shit you have under your roof”? I mean, Chinese wake up, you live in a dictatorship, you “remember” what Japanese did to you, but most of your young people don’t know what happened in Tiananmen square in 1989….The Yellow river the Blue River have disappeared because of the increasing pollution, your people is dying for cancer and chemical pollution, your people still kill baby girl and you have too many men….and you blame drunk Japanese people? ahahah…com’on….It’s like when I hear Italian (I am Italian) complaining because there are too many Rumenian and Albanian who kill and rape and robber and bring a lot of violence…and then the 15% of the Italian Parliament are facing trial for corruption and other crimes.
I hate when people speak only because they have been indoctrinated, start to use you brain, start to read not only your national newspaper, start to get INFORMED!!! Ignorance is the worst thing in the world, and powerful people love ignorant people!
About Japanese apologies, why the Chinese government never speak about all the amount of money that receive from Japan to finance many different projects? Chinese apologized for the atrocities they committed in the far past or in the present (for example Cristian North Korean Refuges?)?
What I am saying is, that people should get angry to their own politicians and dictators instead of looking for scapegoats!!!
And about apologies: did Americans ever apologised for the A-bomb in Japan???????? Or for Vietnam war? or for Korea War? (just for those Americans who commented about Japanese apology matter)
Most of your comment was spot on but Korea? Wasn’t it N Korea starting it by invading S Korea and American troops?
I can’t blame America for bombing an enemy in war to stop it.
As for Vietnam, America was in a cold war against Russia. North Viets were using a communist insurgency to take over South Vietnam. Concern was if Vietnam became communist neighbourin countries would also, like Laos, Cambodia became. Russia also got a large Navy Base. America was understandably apprehensive.
Your point may be better if you were arguing Iraq.
The commie dog leadership brainwashed the Chinese people to hate the Japanese… distracting the Chinese people from the real issues at home. Once a common foreign enemy is established, convenient demonisation is easy. Say Nanjing or Yasukuni Shrine and Chinese people foam at the mouth… this is entirely Pavlovian conditioning.
The commie dogs are grandmasters of propaganda, of asserting a national pride ‘us vs them’ BS. Can’t put down last century’s baggage and move on.
@ rape-hahaha:
LoL, oh the irony of your own comment illustrating your own point.
FUCK YOU CHINA..FUCK FUCK FUCK….YOU ARE SO FUCCCCCCCCCCCCCK..DAMNED
If the Chinese want people to take them seriously, they should have lynched the Japs really badly.
200 Chinese versus 10 Japs and the Japs escaped unhurt! WTF???!!!
what are you talking about?
you guys are SOFT how u gonna let those dirty japs kick ur ass in ur own territory? FUCK THEM UP and give them a taste of their own medicine so they won’t fuck around again. If i was there i’d make those fucking japs eat my shit.
Hahaha… the problem is Mikey… you’d probably only try after you had 10:1 odds.
All I have to say is, Chinese are like cockroaches, smash one and the rest of them scatter back into their little dark corners.
China for all its tough talk got their asses handed to them by the “Japs” in WWII and the same would happen today. Why? because the Chinese today are still as stupid as 50 years ago and now they are even more lazy.
I just watched a show on two martial artists traveling the world who went to Shaolin, the “mecca” of fighting. One of the guys beat the pants off of one of the professional monks but they called it a draw. You wanna be taken seriously China? Stop acting like kids, admit your faults, and change them.
Those Japs ransacked a whole dorm while you cried in your PJ’s. If it was 200 vs 200 or even 50 japs vs 200 you would have scurried back into your monkey nests and waved Chinese flags in your underwear covered in peanut butter.
hello, wots your name? ohh.. i have read it .. but could u explain why you put up a such name(fucking mainland ppl)for yourself, and writed it in the alphabetical of mainland China? i don’t understand.. what are you really.. where you originaly coming from? huh? Do you know it yourself? i doubt … seriously
I suggest you go back to school and finish your prime education.. before you start to speak
Chinese Democracy, good lyrics. From reading once quickly I get the impression that it’s written as if Democracy is an entity and is singing to the Chinese gov’t – I don’t know why, but I found it somehow relevant to this thread. Perhaps because the CPC and mob mentality/reasoning here somehow resonates as being similar to me.
Fuck the japs. Should cut jap boys head off with a sword. Any motherfucking jap. Slaughter the motherfuckers. CHINA!
KillTheJaps,
You STFU.
As proud Chinese myself, i really love my country and people.
but what happen is we are all being brainwashed by the government, by the way they taught us how to remember the history. why is there so many hating for the ordinary Japanese people, we should remember it was the old Japanese government to hurt Chinese…
why so many Fucking killing…violence is never the way to deal with the problems. every country all has the goods and bads, there are just a group of the young teenage confusing kids, which did very stupid things…you know everyone all has this young and restless. no one has right to kill another by any reason, please clam down yourself. I will never be proud that we have 100 or 200 Chinese to kill 10 Japanese.
please learn be peace and love, to love the one not just from china, too love every one in this world. that is the hoping for our Chinese future
hope i can really help our young chinese students.
I totally understand how is that feeling, we have been all brainwashed when we grew up.
it is scared me sometimes because it will be so easy that we can be used by the government or any news ….even fake news.
i knew it was very difficult that Chinese can understand what is brainwashed, please try to read news from other countries and accept the criticism from the other people, please do not believe that news on the Chinese news paper, think from outside the box. see thing separately
the education, the society and the government didnt help us at all.
please think by yourself, please love to others
its a two way road, a portion of japanese population hates chinese as much as chinese do to the japs, and there are similar scenarios around the world, former soviet nations loathing russia for example, because they think russia was the invader and trying to override their culture. this is all about ideology and identity, reasoning is a lesser concern if not irrelevant, if one guy in the crowd expressed contrary view, however logically it be, he will immediately be considered as traitor and probably knocked unconscious. thats why nationalism is both a unifying and destructional mechanism.
one thing I absolutely hate though, is the extreme self-pity with alot of chinese, this generates an enormous “demanding” sentiment so overwhelming that it can go as far as ossifying china’s foreign policy. chinese need self respect and confidence, and need to understand that respect is not demanded (like those mobs in the photos) but EARNED, and need to focus on improving china instead of finding fault of other countries, because this is crucial to becoming a great nation.
to peteryang
you are right, i am agree with you.
we are all human, no different, so be proud by your own countries is great , but sometimes it also bring your narrow and destructional thoughts.
should we be proud for that? it is complex questions
for helping people to understand each other and accept the difference, i am not scared to be called traitor or anything.
Just another example of the misguided patriotism of a nation of insecure, undeducated and ill informed morons. China and Chinese people need to grow up! The Olympics are over, time to join the real world.
THIS IS SO FUCKING CRAZY! why the hell would anybody do that?
i didnt even read all of it my badd =]
im a 13 year old dude. hook me upp!
blah blah blah…
all this discussion of patriotism, japanese, koreans, chinese is meaningless. The fact of the matter is those Japs got away, Chinese pussies did nothing except once again get fucked. When will they learn… perhaps never.
all moral discussion is bullshit, follow one law only and that’s the law of human nature.
Chinese cunts please just keep on whoring yourselves out, becuase the world will never get enough of it.
*Sigh* Once again I must put in…THE FINAL WORD
Firstly, yes I agree the Chinese can have a real bruised ego at times. Overweening pride. So yes I agree with all the ones bagging the Chinese in this post.
On the issue of the pussy nature of Shanghai people, I have observed this in my visits to Shanghai as well that a lot of yelling does occur but little fighting. However a couple of points:
1. Who really is “Shanghai-nese”. Most migrated to the big smoke from all parts of China.
2. Shanghai is an environment. Cosmopolitan. Commercial. Rat race. This breeds softness. Who fights that much when there’s so much to do and indulge in? Its like the pyscho Islamic guys who will die for a cause versus the “soft” West. One has nothing to live for, the other is wondering what they’re doing on the weekend.
There is a northern/southern rivalry. I put this down to the elephant and monkey (insert other small animal) theory. Basically if you are big and lumbering, you are more docile because you’re king shit of the jungle but when you get pissed all hell breaks loose. The monkey is smaller and weaker therefore relies on speed, furtiveness and a myriad of loud warning actions to avoid confrontation. The elephant thinks the monkey is a pussy. The monkey thinks the elephant is a giant retard who starts trampling everywhere when it doesnt get its peanuts.
Pretty much describes the whole dynamic of the relationship and difference between north/south people.
This wonderful theory can be applied to both people and countries by the way.
A couple of points:
* Chinese need to avoid the crowd mentality. 10 students vs 500? Come on dudes. Looking at the photos it reminded me of India. Isn’t it weird how all photos of Indian cities has hundreds of Indian dudes looking at you with blank expressions? Anyone, a big no-no.
You need surgical strikes. Think SWAT as opposed to…well Young & Dangerous (Chinese triad movie glorifying mass assemblies of dudes with long hair).
* As with everything in life, a balance is needed. I don’t think Chinese need to be overly defensive for the sake of avenging past humiliation. You lose a good part of your humanity when you become super-macho. Think Kungfu dudes. Gain technical strength but as a defense only. Everyone admires the macho guy, but the iron fist in a velvet glove is the far better approach.
So… don’t just go with the Northern approach which is drink, smoke, swear, keep silent then go ballistic and destroy the restaurant, nor the Southern approach which is the same sequence but without the violence. Personally I think there are weaknesses with both.
The middle way is the best. Chinese have a good comprehension of balance/ ying & yang. Time to apply the theory. Give the belligerents a chance to cool off, failing that, crush them mericilessly quietly and discreetly and resume playing WOW. If you need to see this in practice visit a few nightclubs that have good security staff and you’ll know the approach.
* Some Japs do go out of control in China. They think they’re king shit of turd island. However bear in mind that there are heaps of polite Japs who are some of the nicest people in the world. I think when you are in a country which is docile you need to have some manners and not just start swaggering. I mean, I’m sure these ten Japs wouldn’t like it when the Yanks were running riot through the Jap cities near the military bases, whoring and drinking? Two way street. Don’t shit in a guests’ house.
If those Japanese students had rushed up my dorm and started beating on me, I would have killed them. Snapped their necks like a chicken bone. I’m a violent American, it’s what I do best!
Japs, Chinks … they all look the same ‘cept the japs are infinitely more civilized
and you white ppl with sour cream face can go fuck yourself with all that racist crap. your mother treat me well last night so now you have internet to you ass face
@ puhlease_the_funny_small_ass : if making war to others (it’s not too longtime ago, unlike some stupid people think) and those atrocities and crimes in that war is something considered as “infinitely more civilized”, then your shit brain and your shit race must be “infinitely-more-civilized” too !
@ stupid puhleas_the_fucky_gweilo : China has been “civilized” for more than 2000 years, its history is among the longest ones in this earth. Japs, koreans and other neighbours of China were so “infinitely uncivilized” and lacking of brain that they had to use Chinese culture and words at their languages and cultures. U r so funny with your “infinitely more civilized” short nippo, included your uncivilized monkeys :-)
In 80s chinese students attacked more than 100 african students in Tianjin because they said : “they had too big success with chinese girl”. no excuse, no memory from chinese people, but african people remember.
In 2009 after to make trouble with american, japanese, german and french people in only 10 years, chinese people ask to the world “why people don’t like us ? “.
lol, fucking nips, try that shit at my skool and ull keep on getting rushed till your dead or deported LOL
I must say Chinese people do wake up:
Japanese is not smarter, nor better, nor bigger. Ask any whites, the nips are just more cunning.
So do use counter cunning-intelligent and forget anger, forget violent. BUt dont back down, beat them up when you got the chance and at every opportunity. Why peaceful option, no one will respects you. You are not born to be buddha, who is an Indian for history sake!
u want to be weakling?
no point arguing with ignorant nips, pls make friend with americans and ask them for another demo on nagasaki or hiroshima soon.
Which, by the way, sorry that demo didnt wipe those mouse out …. in time all in due time …. nips will get nipped later!
OK. Now peace!
oh by the way I love to tepanyaki them teriyaki motherfuckee nippees.
WHITE-BUT-RED
Japanese are crazy, yes. I am a chinese descent, 2nd generation overseas actually, and in order to learn my ancestors’ language deeper, study in Beijing this year.
My roommate is a Japanese girl, and through her- I now despise most Japanese. Before this I was neutral but after episodes of disgusting power-struggle where the Japanese girls try to bully me….
They’re simply airhead dramaqueen who thought looks is everything, act cute all the time, but OMG they even open my clothes in front of other people(!) just to check my stomach!
After that, they dare to behave so rude…..slamming doors, punching walls(everytime I make even small noises), but they always gather in my roommate’s bedroom everyday from 6 at evening to midnight……chattering and doing some sumo-competition. I was told to also start slamming doors by my friend(who happen to be non-chinese descent foreigners) but then I told her it’s not my principle, I was raised by both parents who really teach me to never slam or throw anything when angry, and I’m not going to change my attitude now for stupid power-struggle. After all, I think I don’t want to lower myself to these Japanese girls’ standard.
Then they start to look for stupid reason to fight me, and you know what- I end up have 5 Japanese girls surrounding me trying to bully me in their Japanese-style bully act- too bad I don’t speak their language and their ENglish is bad and they couldn’t even say a complete sentence in Chinese.
I end up fighting them off by myself, and then another non-chinese-descent foreigner come to back me up…and they become like granddaughters to her. At least as a girl I can defend myself well the first time, all alone against 5 Japanese girls!
Sigh, I don’t like to say this but…if Japanese men is bad then the Japanese girls are no better. I guess that’s why they deserve each other.
i’d fuck them down in my college.what a shit.
ummm last time I checked didn’t Japanese people come from China? So what’s the big deal?… Maybe I should check my sources.
Why do Chinese use “little Japanese” to call Japanese… Chinese are very short too.
Because the japies are shorter than the short chineses !
I have only one comment, most happenings which appears in the media everyday, they’ve only pictured a tiny bit of corner or talks about a minority group of ppl on earth. mintues ago, i have read some news telling there were some thing going on between a little group of chinese student and few unknown living creature.. and it was happened in China, a country with 13billlion of population.. Such a big news to China.. right?
havent finish yet from previous post..
just want to question some ppl from the top, does this news really tells you guys anything? If you could simply judge a nation’s entire image by just saw a tiding like this one, then regardless where da hell u coming from or what kind of stuff u ppl were made of.. listen up! you are nothing more seriously than a pieace of shit, and unfortunately, theres no way u can change this.. becoz its already doomed hundreds of century ago.
can it end like this? the chinese guy can accept it?
oh man, just do it beat them upside down.
I’m an American teacher at a university in Japan. If you knew how unfortunate Japanese kids are, you probably wouldn’t pick on them. Their parents don’t discipline them or make them study and at least half of them will quit their first job after only a few months! Their universities and your universities in China are aware that they don’t even minimal motivation to study, yet institutions on both sides are sending them to China just to make a profit.
So protest to your university about ignoring the lack of motivation and ability of most Japanese students and inviting them to China as a source of funding.
Few Japanese students have the wisdom or maturity or mental flexibility to be happy or at least, behave appropriately in a different culture.
> Their parents don’t discipline them or make them study
Uh?! That’s quite the opposite from what I heard…
Which region?
We have students from all over. Even most of the ones who go abroad for only three weeks are not excited about the thought of going back again.
There are many myths about studiousness in Japan. Only a handful of elite study really hard in high school. Japanese university teachers feel pressure to pass them as long as they achieve the minimum 1/3 class attendance. There are exceptions and those are the students that universities should try harder to locate as international students.
Right now, Chinese universities make contractual agreements that allow any foreigner from a university in a developed country to attend nearly any university in China as long as the student comes up with the money.
(I paid 23 years ago to attend Beida for a year, but I was studious. Others were not. We were kept in the Shaoyuan foreigners compound away from Chinese students, though – another very different problem.)
replying some1 :
yea..the west do still hate the nazi german..at least ..still poking fun at em…em specifically citizens of german surnames…u nver know whos got nazi deep down inside untill one day xxx…and ..the jap have to repay wut they did in the past…..picture this….imagine if more than 400,000 UK Citizens of one capital city of any age and sex got murdered and/or raped by one other nation… wut would u want to do…this has to be addressed severely n seriously…not just a meaningless apology…
China + Communism = National Socialism
leads to…Patriotism..Xenophobia…Racism…
…not humans
Let’s Nuke the shit of out them
White man + McDonalds + Biased CNN + Oil = American
Let’s start WW3 if you want, you fool.
>< its japan fault 1st!!! their own us big!! kill our pp in china, now here !!! just u cruel japan wait , the ones that r evil heart japanese… God will punish u!!
It’s like a mad dog disease Japanese people have when they set foot on Chinese soil.
Those evil bastards! How dare they enjoy themselves and have a celebration in another country!
The nerve of them!!!
Hating is for the weak and small minded.
Hating is for people who can not control themselves.
Emotions are gifts, learn to control them or they will control you, and whoever controls your emotions is your puppet master.
So dance, and make your master proud.
Chinese people love to hate…it’s part of their culture.
The Japanese have really got balls:
10 Japanese students
take
10 Chinese police vehicles to control.
Admirable!
Well . . . have you ever seen a Chinese police officer in action before? They have absolutely no skills when it comes to apprehending a criminal. Did you see the video of the Shanghai city watch trying to take down that watermelon seller? 20 cops and to no avail . . .
Don’t be silly. The police were there to ensure the safety of the Japs from the angry Chinese. No excuse for their behabviour but reparations and acknowledgment for war crimes are hardly equitable for the damage caused to China by the Japs during WW2.
The Japanese haven’t changed. At all.
Neither have the Chinese.
[quote]
Die xin says:
Wednesday, August 12, 2009 at 5:47 pm
>< its japan fault 1st!!! their own us big!! kill our pp in china, now here !!! just u cruel japan wait , the ones that r evil heart japanese… God will punish u!!
[quote]
Funny, said as if Chinese are better than Japanese. From this website, I say Chinese in China are not better than Japanese.
Let’s Nuke the shit of out them
Lets kill all white people
Just don’t kill us with your sophisticated paper and compasses!!
In 80s chinese students attacked more than 100 african students in Tianjin because they said : “they had too big success with chinese girl”. no excuse, no memory from chinese people, but african people remember.
That isn’t the story, you stupid nigger. They attacked you apes because you were RAPING women. Notice how the coons are better behaved now? You’re welcome.. god knows your men could learn a thing or two about civilization.
Kill all white people?
Stupid name…..
Imagine how Chinese people would react if every time they were being unnecessarily loud (i.e. most of the time) foreigners threw bottles at them.
What if the people outside had been Chinese instead of Japanese and the people who had thrown the bottle had been Japanese?
I think the Chinese reaction would be the same: IT’S ALWAYS JAPAN’S FAULT AND NEVER CHINA’S FAULT NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION IS.
That seems to be the mentality here from my point of view.
BTW, I am not Chinese or Japanese.
The Japanese & Chinese haven’t changed! It’s too dangerous!
WHAT? Come on, you are students! Why not join the Japanse and have an international party together, just like students do everywhere else in the world. These Chinese students behave like grumpy grandmothers complaining about noisy neighbours!! Come one! Complaining about noise on university campus! You chinese are boring. Look how chinese students behave outside china. They never join any international party or meeting. They only stick together with other chinese and stay in their dirty rooms playing computer games and watching movies. Disgusting.
IF I EVER GET MY HANDS ON ONE OF THESE JAPANESE BASTARDS THEYLL PAY FOR EVERY GOD DAMN MOTHER FUCKING SCRAPE ON THE PEOPLE THEY BEAT UP!!!
OK so Japs were loud but wtf toss a beer bottle at em? No wonfer they went after tjose guys. Seems like a very 1 side story too from Tianya fen fen poster
hahahaha,i thought u china dogs like to fight and kill, but when u china bitches came to a real fight,all of u get beaten up like little pussies and den complain abt it like little gals,honestly speaking, all of u china dogs are not welcome anywhere in the world, u faggots are a nation of uncivilised babarians who eat anything which got legs. wat the hell,how u expect people from other countries to treat u idiots with respect when u dont even give a shit when skinning alive a dog, u dun even respect a cute little animal,den u are treated like animals from the rest of the world,japan shld haf jus finish off china during the world war 2, china people are causing many social problems in many parts of the world,sharon stone may be right in her comments that the shichuan earth quake could be cause by bad karma, u reap what u sow baby, and jackie chan hit the jack pot when he say that chinese people need to be controlled, see this china idiots makes me laugh,aft those 2 pussies get beaten up, they gather all their countrymen 2gether and acting patriotic,when 1 on 1 fight, those china dogs will surely wet their pants when they meet a big caucasian hunk like me, heck i could even take on 10 of this china pigs hahahaha
You shouldn’t even boast about being caucasian while you speak to put down chinese people.
I’m not chinese but i took offense at that.
You speak of china’s uncivilized culture and creating all these social problems while your CAUCASIAN race was where all the chaos started.
generally people can live together under a managed order, regardless of race…it’s just people like you who think they can pass judgment on how great their race, when all race has flaws.
you should think twice about trying to sound all “tough”, in the end you just sounded stupid.
congratulations, i guess you share the same idiosyncrasy with those you abhor-”china dogs” I guess your brain activity was surging to below zero when you said that.
This is what happens when lower class mentality individuals (regardless of wealth) are left unguided. All those involved should remember that they are disrespecting their own governments by indulging their ill mannered natures like this. Only governments can decide whether or not to go to war.
Express your nationalism in a more dignified manner. Join the armed forces or a martial arts club, and learn some discipline, instead of behaving like wild dogs.
Don’t trust the “Keyboard Warriors” who post here and are lacking the bravery or “other” departments. They need to get a life offline and their opinions don’t reflect the true opinions of the Chinese, Japanese or any other general population:
Doesn’t this sound like them?:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=keyboard+warrior
FUCK ALL CHINESE…
First off, the fact that nearly all of you actually believed what you read in a Chinese newspaper is laughable. It is common knowledge that the media is state controlled and always slanted in favor of the homeland.
Second, the racism toward Japanese is enlightening. Since you are all too young to have lived through conflicts of the past generation, it is clear that you were taught this hatred by your parents and grandparents. Just as young Jews persist in hatred of Germans, Tibetans in fear of Chinese, Japanese victimized by Koreans – ignorant generations teach their children to paint ALL people of one race with the same brush. Shame on you all.
To understand the anger, one must understand history. I am not Chinese but I feel nothing but contempt towards anything Japanese, for their crimes against humanity. If this story is true, these Japanese need some behavioral lessons. The Chinese should reflect upon themselves as well, are the Chinese Hippocrates, considering the way they act towards their minorities… I know I made a lot of generalities, pardon them.
No, the Chinese are not Hippocrates, the Greek physician who is considered to be the father of medicine.