From Tianya, October 14th 2008:
Yesterday, someone reported that a pupil at the Binhe Road Primary School in Dengfeng City [in Henan province] has been standing outside the classroom to listen to lessons for over 20 days, suspecting that the teacher was punishing the student.
Yesterday afternoon at 2pm, a reporter rushed to Binhe Road Primary School. After hearing the class bell ring, the students entered the classroom one by one. However, under the classroom window for Class 1-3, a little girl carrying a backpack said goodbye to the schoolmates who talk to her. She grabbed the steel bar of the window with both hands and looked into the classroom uninterrupted. After reporter’s inquiry, the little girl is called Guo Xiaoxiao (name changed), from Wangzhuang Village nearby/of Dengfeng City, and 6-years-old this year. She used to attend class in this room but, for reasons unknown, she was kicked out of class. Not wanting to leave the school and still wanting to study, she could only stand under the window to listen to the lessons.
When Xiaoxiao’s father Guo Zhanchao arrived shortly later, seeing his daughter standing outside the window listening to class, he was unable to hold back his sobs. He told the reporter that he pedals three-wheel carts (carrying goods) for a living. Originally, he knew the Binhe Road School Headmaster Zhao. At the start of the school year, unable to find a school that would admit his child, he borrowed and gathered 500 RMB and gave it to Headmaster Zhao. Mr Zhao immediately agreed to admit Guo Xiaoxiao to the school, but later Mr Zhao delayed and delayed until the afternoon of September 10th when Mr Guo’s daughter was finally assigned to Class 1-3. But good things do not last; on September 18th, the daughter who had been attending school for only a few days said to her father while crying that the teacher would no longer let her into class, and that she could only stand outside the window to listen to lessons. Soon after, Guo Zhanchao went almost daily to the school to see the headmaster, but Headmaster Zhao only agreed to return the money and did not plan on arranging Guo Xiaoxiao to attend school.
Guo Zhanchao said with tears, “I suffered my whole life because I don’t have an education, and today can only depend on pedaling a three-wheel cart to raise my family with difficulty. I just want my daughter to learn some knowledge, so she can have a happy life later.”
Mr Zhao, headmaster of Binhe Road Primary School, commented on the incident saying that he is unfairly blamed. He said Guo Zhanchao and him knew each other from before, that he did indeed receive the 500 RMB money that Guo forcefully left in his office, but he later returned the money to Guo. Regarding letting Guo Xiaoxiao’s attend school, he can only feel sorry for their family’s situation, but could not arrange for her to attend school simply because they gave him a gift. Later, he could not do anything against the exclusion of Xiaoxiao. “That was handled in accordance to the relevant regulations of the Department of Education. She is the child of a peasant who migrated to the city for work, not a pupil of this area.”
Comments on Sina:
Everyone has their own duty. The duty of a farmer is to cultivate the fields, his daughter should research how to cultivate fields. Studying is for us city dwellers, hehe.
I cried…I can’t handle seeing little children, especially little girls, suffering the most… Seeing the girl stand by the window looking inside. it was unbearable.
Do you believe that I dare smash this kind of school?!
If you let one of her in today, tomorrow there might be 10 who come. City dwellers basically now all only have one child, but rural people all have 3 or 5. One husband and wife pair from the city occupies one seat in a classroom, but a rural husband and wife pair would occupy 3-5 seats in a classroom. I ask you, do you think this is fair and rational?
Old Mao utilised the farmers’ power to conquer everything under the sky [in this context: China]. He owes the farmers the most, because he separated people into different classes. This policy continues to this day without reform. [referring to the hukou system]
Do not carelessly be sympathetic. She should go to school in the place she is supposed to go to. School is not a homeless shelter.
Peasants, peasants. Pity the lowest class of people!
The child is worth our sympathy. But how come the countryside’s other children are not standing outside the windows to listen to class, is all because of their parents.
Do you have a method of contact? I will pay to let the child go to school!
TMD, what kind of society is this!!!!
Whether or not she can go to school is not the key, the key is why kick the little girl out after letting her go to school for a period of time? and then kick her out? There is some story inside here, was it because they gave too little money!!! Is anyone thinking the same thing?
I did not have to read the content, just looking at the pictures, my tears started running down. I ask the school headmaster and the teachers: Do you even see the girl standing outside the door?
Regardless in which city in China, migrant workers are always the lowest class, the most bullied people. There is [officially] no tuition fee nationwide, but I still have to pay 500-600 RMB a semester for my child to go to school in Puning City [in Jieyang, Guangdong province]. Migrant workers just suffer bullying. This kind of teacher should have been expelled from the teaching corps long ago. This little girl is so sad. Bastard teachers, if she were your child, how would you feel?
First figure out whether the local department of education really has this kind of regulation. If it really does, then find out whether there are schools admitting children of migrant workers. This society does not pity tears. Asking for help is not as good as helping yourself.
The only thing that is a bigger failure than the Chinese football [soccer] team is the Chinese education system. What is it that makes those who have received educations have such cold hearts?
Nobody said peasants are bad. Peasants can stay home and plant fields. Why do they want to come to the cities to be migrant workers? All she needs to do to go to school is go home, no one is stripping her of her right to an education. The reason she cannot go to school is entirely a result of her parents coming to work in the city for their own personal benefits.
Comments on Mop:
I always thought compulsory education was real…[I was] “very foolish, very naive“…
The people suffering the most in China are actually not the migrant workers,
but their children.
This damn system system of China’s…sigh, there is nothing left for me to say…
Beginning from when we are small, we have heard, seen, and been told that socialism is good. But after growing up, we have no idea where socialism is good!!
In China, the education system has never been fair and just, there is not much reason to be so angry.
Just live numbly in this country.
Talk about human rights are all lies.
Americans say we don’t have human rights. Do we still need to refute it?
People always say that the foreigners look down on us Chinese, but now even Chinese look down on their own people, so how can others respect us?
If it were me, standing outside like that while the other students were inside attending class, I do not know how I would feel. Such a little child, and letting her suffer how unfair this society is, it is too pitiful.
Comments on Tianya:
What were the parents thinking? Why did they bring her into this world, to let her suffer, and her young soul suffer mutilation.
Seeing the child’s longing, I can’t stop the tears from flowing down my face. What kind of society is this, that would let such little child suffer such unfairness and discrimination? Where is the “harmony?” [China's government repeatedly emphasizes a "harmonious" society for China.]
It reminds me of the phrase “Chinese and dogs are not allowed to enter!”
I don’t know whether I am qualified to talk about education here. I am not an expert, I am just a normal student at a no-name university, so my view on education may not be mature. It may even be extreme, so please don’t laugh at me, and if I am wrong, I hope everyone can be tolerant.
When we were in primary school, teacher told the students to keep their hands behind their back, their heads held high, and their chest out. We did a we were told and listened to the teacher. Not making mistakes was what makes a good child, so whatever the teacher said, that is what we did; whatever the teacher taught, that is what we learned. If our grades were not bad, and if we tested into a good junior high or a good high school, then we would be deeply grateful to the teacher. When I got to university, in the midst of different events and activities, I finally realised I did not know how to do anything, that I had to think on my own, and it was very difficult to have my own ideas. It was then that I realized that we have already lost our creativity. Who should be blamed? I think the teachers are innocent, and the blame lies on the whole society’s education system.
Look at our graduating students. All of them are the same, there is no personality. When I say personality is not about dressing fashionably or or behaving weird, but about the ways they think about problems, a type of attitude about life. Today’s students are all premature, their way of handling things appears to be smooth and mature. In reality, it is not, because these were all copied from others and not what they came to understand themselves. This can also be called education and learning with Chinese characteristics.
Everyone says China is a strong manufacturing country, but it is not strong country in research and development. I think it is definitely not a problem of technology, but to a great extent it is because our education methods have imprisoned our thinking, and restricted our development. What we students are most skilled at is not thinking but learning, learning other people’s methods. Normally when we are working, we wait for other people to teach, and then become like masters after we have learned. I think China will never become strong relying on these methods.
Maybe what I say is not all fair and sound, but the actual situation is basically like that. Someone said that one’s thinking determines one’s life, that is to say, whatever level of thinking you reach will determine what your life will be like. I really approve of this kind of of saying. Indeed, the type of education a person, a society, and a country receives will directly relate to that country’s rise and fall, success and failure.
Now that society has become like this, who should we blame? The people’s living standard has risen somewhat, but whose standard has risen the most? While we have gained something on the materialistic level, have we not also lost something at the same time? These things, who should we blame?
What would you do? Do you let this one girl go to this school or should the rules be followed because there are reasons for the rules? – Fauna
See also:
- Child Labor In Wuhan, Chinese Argue Good or Bad
- Sister Says Family Poor, Cannot Find Boyfriend, Leaves
- Volunteers Visit Homes of Poor Migrant Worker Children
- Peasant Girl: My Life Is Miserable Because I Am Poor
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Peasant Girl: My Life Is Miserable Because I Am Poor 
Government Official Attacks 11-Year-Old Girl 
Volunteers Visit Homes of Poor Migrant Worker Children 
‘China Does Not Have Any Men Suitable For Me’ 
Child Labor In Wuhan, Chinese Argue Good or Bad 
1) Follow the rules
2) Point out that the rules were put in place by the central government, and that until they see fit to change them…
First, I want to thank you for creating this site. Self-righteous people (especially those with English-language blogs) who can’t read Chinese think Chinese people are brainwashed. It’s very easy to see from this site that they’re are a myriad of issues being discussed amongst Chinese citizens, and that many people are fully aware and critical of the faults of the system, much better than the outsiders who can’t understand Chinese are aware of what is going on. Especially one hypocritical one who lavishes criticism on China’s government while living there but will delete all comments criticizing him on how he sloppily discusses issues on his site under the pretense that it is rude to go to someone’s own site and criticize the site owner.
As for the topic I think all children should be allowed an education, but what the person said is right about the number of migrant children being a burden on schools. China does not yet have the type of socialist education system that America has where everyone does not have to pay. It may one day, and probably will. Maybe even with schoolbuses, who knows? But China first priority is first actually getting the rural workers out from under that poverty (as was announced days ago in the news) so I don’t know when that will be. So while my natural inclination is that yes, send the girl to school, I don’t know how feasible that is. It is a shame though, that after so much development, people can still get shafted of an education in China.
Dana,
Your still a conceited, arrogant, slimely, worthless piece of shit! You may have language skills, bit of a shame you can’t actually employ them for the betterment of your own race. However, i think it is wonderful that foreign devils have more empathy for your own race than you do, sort of reminds me who the master race actually are!!!! RATHER THAN YOUR MISPLACED SENSE OF SUPERIORITY, which is rather sad, given your idiotic rantings! You have a long way to go tiger before you can class yourself as human, getting there, clearly a few thousand years away before your type evolve! So much for 5000 years of culture and history – thank fuck for the industrial reveolution! Oooops your just doing that now – SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi tosser, sorry, i take back what i said about your language skills, given that Chinese (Mandarin – for you educated mouth pieces) is only really only spoken by the Chinese, whereas English is spoken by most of the civilised world – (care to argue that point DANA?) Anyway, all anomisity aside, ie; your a twat, lets engage in an adult way? Are you capable of such things? Perhaps not…. we will see. xxx
Actually, why are we educated, western people even trying to engage a lessor mortal than yourself? I have better things to do with my time… such as deciding which socks to wear today! ANYWAY, YOU AFTER ALL THE NEW MASTER RACE… THE NAZIS WERE PUT TO BED BY US LESSOR MORTALS 6 DECADES AGO! You guys pick up where they left off!
Folks… subscribers, we lessor mortals, we foreign devils and disgusted Chinese… i suggest we start a human flesh search on this sad and pathetic invidual who labels himself DANA and shame the bastard!!!!!!!!!!!! Expose the racist xenophobic shit!!!!!!!
@Dana, which hypocritical blog are you referring to? I’d like to check it out…
Regarding this issue, the children of migrant workers in China are treated worse than the children of illegal immigrants in the US…the underlying problem is that China as a whole is fundamentally not prepared for the massive internal migration and urbanization taking place, the education system, healthcare system, housing, etc etc have not fully caught up to the fact that there are and will be a lot more urban dwellers. The special schools set up for migrant children is not the answer either…
These problems are driven by the fact that economic development has been largely uneven, the growth and opportunities and the jobs are in the large cities, which are still mostly on the East Coast, and that’s where people will go. Without further development in the inland areas, of course rural residents will migrate to the areas with more opportunities.
Wait until the new rural land laws are fully implemented, with the ability to consolidate farm lands through voluntary long-term leases, China can increase agricultural production and reduce required rural labor (not on the same scale as the U.S., at least not yet, some 2% of the US population are farmers, compare that to China, where some publications estimate up to 60-70% of the population are rural, though I doubt all rural residents are farmers). Either create more opportunities and wealth inland and build new cities, or the rural residents will continue to migrate eastward.
and that philanthropy rates are much lower here, due to cultural habits…
I’m sure you’ve been there because for some reason despite its very poorly written “didactic ” posts, it’s still quite big on the blogosphere. It’s initials are PD. Last time I checked the self-importance levels there have gotten to obscene levels. That’s why I like this site. It tells things like it sees them, straight from the horse’s mouth without the filters that people who can’t read Chinese are subjected to. First they look different usually or sound different. Chinese people are obviously going to have a hard time relating things to them. I’m Chinese-American and I even feel closer relating to other Asians, a thing you see in American colleges…an aggregation of the Asians plus other races. Secondly, they need to go to English sources for their readings. It’s not to say those readings are not correct, but they are written to cater to a public who don’t really know China. There’s very little enlightenment.
But I am afraid that people will take the dumb quotes and use them as opinions, regardless of any sarcasm involved. Variety Asia’s blog did.
hello , i found that there is something wrong with your RSS, and i can not subscribe this site.
perhaps you can give me some advices, thanks a lot.
For someone like me – both extremely interested in China and living in China – this website is a godsend. I can speak Chinese, so I frequently converse with the locals here in Shanghai, and there are also many who can speak English, so I am always talking to them about how they feel about their country and culture. But what is more interesting is watching them talk amongst themselves on what are increasingly becoming channels for venting and expression about politics and national affairs in a land where venting and expression about such things is forbidden. My Chinese reading skills are not good enough to read these forums in their original forms yet, so I really would like to thank the owner of this site as well because this is absolutely fascinating and a website I check daily now.
As for this story, like many other stories it highlights something that is unfair in Chinese society. It is difficult to suggest how this could be improved as China has a huge population problem. Perhaps the government could spend a bit of money on educating peasants about the consequences of unprotected sex and what life would be like for them and their children in the event that they do actually have children. That is not to say that all peasant children are from accidents, but a lot probably are and this could possibly cut down on such extreme population problems.
Whenever I read this website, sometimes I think China does not have a good future and sometimes I think it does. It is evident without a shadow of a doubt that the leaders of this country are simply not doing an adequate job, leaving many people behind. Whether someone else could do a better job is not something I could say for certain, but probably yes. These poor people who are being left over seem to be stirring up emotions of sympathy, compassion and disappointment among their fellow Chinese people as can be seen in these posts. And when I see common Chinese being moved by such stories and recognizing the problems in their country I think their is hope.
The internet is still relatively young but I honestly feel has the potential to become a very powerful weapon in the fight for equality, freedom and justice in this country. If Chinese people can rely upon themselves to become free thinking people who can make movements to change this country for good, then I think the Chinese people can become a nation of TRULY great people.
Although I am from Malaysia, please allow me to comment on the issue above. I am an English school teacher teaching in a chinese school. My symphaty goes to the little girl. She should not have been discriminated. Nobody should be denied an education no matter where they are from. China is such a rich country. They should get their pririority right. Over here, our education is free. The school text books are provided free too. Anybody from anywhere can attend the school of their choice
Stupid rule for denying education for the little girl not of her fault. Stupid principal for talking more stupid reason (more corruption?) Stupid Teachers for not even caring? Stupid Government for coming up the crazy rule? Why are they all so stupid and it only seem to happen in China? My sympathy to the common people.
How can the teacher not let the girl come in? Will someone really complain if she comes in and sits down? Shame:(
To add to your point.
How could one be a teacher of small children when he/she does not have a heart for the small girl? What a joke.
Push aside of all rules and law, is it too much to allow the kid into the class room?
This society is SUCK
Shanghai Brit, when you look at everything that the government has to face, it’s doesn’t seem like they’re doing a bad job.
I know people roll their eyes at the “when a country is so big” remark, but it’s one that people should really consider.
All you have to do is look at India for comparison to see if a country run by just by “free-thinking” people could work for a developing country of that size and the diversity of people that China has.
When I see what the government is doing, it seems to be
1) Lift remaining people out of poverty
2) Systemization of public welfare services
This is why two things I care about deeply, animal rights and the entertainment business in China (don’t laugh…the sooner this gets going, the better people will understand and have less prejudices about China) will have to wait. The human rights of being able to have enough money to live on must come first.
Not to say that everything they do is right. Do I think the government spends a little too much on censorship? Yes. Do I think communism creates lots of corruption, yes?
But that above about first caring about trying to lift people out of poverty is the basic idea. This is why piracy will exist in China, despite protests from WTO. It is as of right now too many people’s livelihood. Take that away and you impoverish many.
These people on the internet with their fine, distanced view typing away in leisure are direct products of China’s government systematically trying over the past 20 years ways to create an economy that could allow people to get richer, starting with the special economic zones. It didn’t happen by itself. India tried these, and it didn’t work due to the democracy and differing opinion and it fell apart. Even the owner of this site is a product of this.
So do I wish everyone could get an education in China? Yes. But do I think that this is a symbol of the government not working? No. China is better than it was before. It is unfortunate that this ascension did not come equally to everyone, and that some people are still poor, but they are not worse off than they were ten years ago and I honestly do not believe ten years from now, these migrant workers will be in the same situation.
@Benson
China is not a rich country. Sure they have a massive GDP (which anyone with elementary knowledge of economics knows is not an indication of social welfare), but they also have 1/5th of the worlds population. average this out and China is not rich at all. Its not a case of “they are making so much money”, its more of a case of “they should be making this much”.
Perhaps you could now argue that they shouldn’t have pored money into the Olympics or the space program, realize that building social systems is not juts about throwing some money around. Social enterprises are far more complicated and ties in closely with the overall development of a society. Having a robust and affordable education system like other parts of the world would be a daunting task which not only the current Chinese government cannot do, i doubt any other administrations can do any better no matter how much money they have.
Being from malaysia, you should be aware then the systematic discrimination faced by non-malay populations there in terms of education and employment. although hypocrisy should never really be used as an argument, it does weaken your position.
@Shanghai Brit
In regards to your point about the government leaving people behind and not doing a proper job. Yes the government have left many behind, but the government have also helped many. This is again an issue of population. if it were anywhere else, there might be 1 out of 100 people being left behind and as much as we may think we are conscientious people, we don’t notice 1 person. But in China, this is amplified to 100 out of 100,000 and suddenly the leaders don’t seem to be doing a proper job. Perhaps they arn’t but they are probably also no less competent than any other governments. You say that someone else can do it better? I have to politely disagree with that.
the above being said, i think its absolutely atrocious that such a thing can happen to a child on today’s society and i would like nothing more than giving the principal and the teacher a nun-sandwich in the face. The fact is, theres a shitload of these type of heart wrenching tales from China. the Pom is right in suggesting such stories can serve as an effect impetus for social change and advancement, but rather that simple get all worked up and self righteous about it, it would be much more constructive to get a broader perspective and really think how such situations can be changed for the better.
ffs got pipped by dana :(
oh god and she/he is an animal rights activist too… :((((
@Dana, so which blog is it? I don’t think you’re talking about Pomfret? I like his blog. Just tell me the name so I can start flame wars on there.
@ SniperWZ:
Dana is referring to pekingduck.org.
Thanks Kai, time for flaming action, look for me on that site…
@Dana
I’m genuinely interested in your affinity with other Asians; do you think you could explain to me why exactly you relate more strongly to your idea of what it is to be Asian, or to be of Asian ancestry? (or chinese)
Is it really just that you look different?!
Also, you seem to think there is widespread prejudice towards China. I think you confuse China with the CCP. Many in the west aren’t prejudiced, but critical of the CCP because the west traditionally favours democratic forms of Government. Unfortunately, the CCP has become synonymous with China because it is the only political party in that country, therefore it’s understandable that many Chinese take an attack on the Government as an attack on the very idea of China itself. (which I think explains why many Chinese are far more defensive of any criticism of their governement or its policies than westerners generally are)
Damn！ Poor little girl U__U
I suppose it’s a similar culture…similar background more than anything else. I can’t say why exactly, but I suppose it’s the same reasoning behind why for a mixed country their are so few interracial marriages. I didn’t notice it in high school, but this idea of going together with your same race it is definitely something you see in American colleges. I suppose in high school Asians were too few to really see this occur although during PE the black kids definitely stayed as a group and so did the white kids. Of course, this is not a rule of thumb and I’m not saying that I don’t have friends besides Asians.
Like I said when I posted on that particular website, there is no confusion btw the CCP and China. When I think of China I think of greater China, meaning everything about her culture and how that culture can potentially flourish. Even Indonesian and Malaysian Chinese can contribute to that culture, despite not ever actually going to be part of the PRC.
I’ll give a shortened version of what I posted back then:
Nobody likes their country being criticized by outsiders on a consistent basis.
According to the recent Pew Research Center Poll, Chinese people like the way the country is going. They like how the country is going, and as such, constant criticism of the government’s policies without looking at bright spots is obviously going to agitate people, especially coming from people who think that Chinese people are ignorant enough not to know what the difference between China and the CCP is. Because obviously people can see their governments flaws. Hell, just go outside. But the transformation of China, is also very apparent, more so than in most countries because it happens constantly. And as such, such amenities, such as going online or getting the latest fasions or whatever is not completely taken for granted. There is pride when they see these transformations.
For a further example that relates this better to a non-Chinese, let’s use the US. To say that the Bush administration is well-liked in America would be a farce. The whole world knows that and America has certainly detached itself from this particular administration. But given an administration that they were proud of, I’m not sure Americans would be so docile as to just lay around and take an onslaught of taunts at it. And we’re just talking about America’s government, what about in another country (such as another Asian country) that does not largely ignore what the rest of the world thinks?
I find that people when it comes to China really do sometimes oversimplify things for such a large complex country. The question is not “Are they doing things wrongs” because obviously they are. But are they changing for the better? And I think so.
-They are reducing poverty. Starting from the special economic zones they set up to the recent plan announced to reduce poverty in the rural areas.
- They are starting environmental cleanup. They’ve been doing this for years actually despite what Western papers publish. Mao destroyed the beauty of natural China with his stupid people proliferation policy and they’ve so many environmental laws now.
- They are reducing social stigma for people with Aids, disabilities. People can say the Paralympics was for show, but it was beautiful despite remnants of social stigma, compared to how embarrassing it was that NBC did not stay to cover the paralympics, because the people in the US don’t care, it was an even more incredible gesture. China may not have the money for parking lots with disabled spots everywhere, but they are definitely trying what they can.
Finally, I have to go back to the money issue. When people have money, there are certain natural facets of life that get better. For example, as people get richer, they can own pets. As they bond with their animals, they can actively speak on behalf of animals. Many of the good laws in the US regarding animal rights got passed because of pet-owners, not because lawmakers sat down and thought, wow, we really need pet laws.
So I’ll be patient. I don’t care about the fate of the CCP, but the fate of China I do care about. And I can see that it’s changing for the better. CCP might be trying to make people rich to keep their control on the country (an idea that could be true, but it’s not out of reach that it could be that they are Chinese and want to see China better) but hell, I’ll take that.
So back on topic, it pains me to see this girl standing outside, and my disappointment was great, but to say that the system is not working because of this? I think that’s a very silly gut-reaction that is not taking into mind past, present and future. People who look at China need to not be so near-sighted and just look at the here and now.
Where did you go to high school?
I’m white American and I mingled with everyone….spanish kids, white kids, asian kids, black kids….wasn’t a big deal really.
Also, a lot of people I knew dated outside of their race…..are you from Alabama or something??
I don’t think any sane person can deny the economic advances that have occurred in China, and the social changes or the very minimal environmental ‘awareness’ that have come to pass. Certainly good things have come to China. And by all means, revel in the successes, no-one is denying you that.
You must also understand that no-one heaps undue criticism upon the actions of the CCP (most of the time). Western criticism is directed towards the suppression of political dissidents, gross neglection of the environment etc. No-one will criticise the benefits brought about by the CCP.
And concerning the benefits, I disagree that the CCP is worthy of much praise. They have mainly embraced capitalist reforms; essentially they have begun a process of ‘catching up’ with the modern industrialisation of the west. This has led to greater wealth, and more Chinese than ever before live above $1 a day. But there are still, as you say many, many problems, so why is criticism unfair?
It doesn’t matter whether or not any human is happy with the performance of the CCP, there is always room for criticism. Yet this criticism that is laid against the CCP is always denounced as ‘prejudiced’, why? Not because the criticism is false, or comes from a purely ‘western‘ viewpoint (many Chinese want to see greater democracy for example), but because they think the CCP has been doing ok so far, and that reforms take time etc, etc. This is the committed defence of the CCP that just seems unnecessary. And this is why to many Chinese, perhaps even subconsciously, China is synonymous with the CCP:
“Look how great China is, look how it’s changing, can’t you stop criticising the CCP! ” Lots of Chinese defend the CCP like this. Those of us in the west don’t understand why; how can you tolerate strict censorship for example just because your nation is modernising? If anything, you should be pushing for more change. We understand that protest is difficult in China, therefore we are more surprised when the Chinese become overly defensive of their government.
Why do these perceived benefits brought about by the CCP prevent fair criticism? How much would the economy have to slow down before criticism is again allowed?
In terms of your America example, you’re right, people are liable to defend the actions and policies of a government if they think the government has performed well. There might, however be some criticism if someone thinks the policies, or some policies were bad. (some think Iraq war was good, others bad). In China however, we have the case where some Chinese think economic reforms good, and censorship bad for example, yet they think the good actions somehow balance out the bad, and the CCP shouldn’t be criticised because its been doing so well (this is a reiteration, but the different ways the government is treated in both countries is here, made clear.). You’ll always find Americans in disagreement about the successes of their government, and even personal consideration of a government doesn’t lead to black or white conclusions; but in China, its like there’s an underlying solidarity with the government, regardless of its failures.
You might think of Greater China, you might be able to see your government’s flaws, but that hasn’t convinced me that to you, the CCP isn’t part of Greater China. By all means care about the fate of China, but you can’t expect your desires to come true without saying what they are, through protest and criticism. How can you expect animal rights if you have no effective means of lobbying the government? Sometimes merely hoping the government thinks like you isn’t good enough.
Of course, in terms of this story, lambasting China or indeed the CCP seems a little callous; a society akin to the west indeed won’t emerge overnight, and social change (or at least, universal schooling) does seem to be on the CCPs agenda. (though in a government as secretive as China‘s, who knows how more quickly and efficiently implementing universal schooling could be achieved?)
(As a side note, concerning your strong Chinese identity, I’m willing to guess it was firmly instilled by your Chinese parents. I know a guy from Hong Kong who was adopted at a young age by two British parents. I think I’d be right in saying he’s more British than me, even though I’m %100 British caucasian. At uni I notice the Asians stick together, but they’re always the foreign students, not the students that look Asian but were born in Britain, perhaps the UK is simply different than the US. Incidentally, European foreigners move seemlessly amongst their hosts, but that’s probably to be expected.)
Anyway, I like China, but I know, like everything, it isn’t perfect. What’s wrong with highlighting the flaws? Why don’t you personally like to criticise the CCP or see others do so? Because when a government entirely controls the future and very nature of China, criticism of that government becomes criticism of China itself.
The reason why this child was denied an education in the city is because of the internal Visa system that works in China. Its called the Household Registration System or Hukou as known locally.
Hukou is not used for just registering people for census. It is a internal population migration system. Basically, China’s got a billion plus people and the only way to effectively discriminate and enforce constraints on urban migration is to use Hukou to distribute government education, healthcare, residence and other things.
It is not a perfect system but a very cruel system which the poor and weak will be suffer and be excluded. Many big cities such as Shenzhen, Zhuhai have relax their Hukou to attract more workers as wells as factories.
The only way to gain Hukou in urban areas is money $$$. If you can afford a property, study in tertiary education and apply for residence or if the city has a program to attract talent.
This is a a tragedy that a young girl can’t be enrolled not because she can’t afford it, but deny the right to school in another city. Recently, these migrant children can go to private school or “not registered” by the MOE. (Ministry of Education). But the central government has forced the issues on cities to take over these “Private schools”.
If this internal migration system happened in Europe or in America with (300 million), people will protest in the streets.
Whoa, Dana, I just did a word count of both our ‘essays’, I beat you: my 187 to your 186. I feel almost ashamed. (I’ve realised that if you don’t read it, then quite a considerable amount of utterly meaningless words exist, ah well)
@No links
Don’t worry about Dana reading it. She’s the normal CCP apologist posting the same arguments we’ve seen a billion times before. CCP should be congratulated for pulling people out of poverty and never criticized. Anyway, don’t fall for it, if you’ve been on these blogs long enough you’ve heard this type of argument a million times before, and now that China Smack is getting bigger you’ll see a lot more of these people trying to help their beloved CCP “shape” opinions.
@ Dana:
Rereading the above, I felt I needed to point out that Richard is indeed free to feel it is rude for others to go to his own site and criticize him. He’s also entirely free to censor comments he doesn’t like. Finally, Richard doesn’t have to let anyone comment on his website at all if he doesn’t want to (Think of Roland Soong @ ESWN). I think too many people fail to understand the limits of speech upon personal property (including privately owned websites) simply because it appears “accessible” to them. Don’t forget that Richard quite clearly says his website is a “peculiar hybrid of personal journal, dilettantish punditry, pseudo-philosophy…”
Think of him as owning a house and putting up an McCain political sign in his front yard. There is no reason he should allow others to walk onto his property to remove his McCain sign or place an Obama sign there. Likewise, there’s absolutely no reason why he is obligated to let others scribble on his blog. Anyone is free to disagree with him, but they’re also free to go set up their own blog/website.
Perhaps looking at things that way will help put yourself more at ease.
@ Dana/No Links:
I think it is quite understandable for Asians to flock with Asians (or any race with races similar to themselves). Sure, it isn’t politically correct but humans find comfort in what their brains perceive as familiar. No matter what, external appearances are going to easily factor into that mental equation.
That said, Dana, if you read the translated Chinese comments here, you’ll note that Chinese people use “China” to refer to the Chinese government just as casually as foreigners do. I really think context is the key when evaluating whether or not someone is veering away from a targeted criticism towards a reckless generalization.
This I agree with whole-heartedly mainly because I deeply understand what it is in response to. At the same time, I can understand the frustration of those who do sometimes express disappointment with how things are. Everyone wants things to be better and they want it to be better immediately so they don’t have to feel uncomfortable. With regards to this, I think we need to differentiate between those who are genuinely interested in how to improve things versus those who simply just want things to be their way without honest consideration of how to reasonably do that or why.
No Links, I think, so far demonstrates that he is not the “typical” China-basher that many Chinese have come to immediately reject. At the very least, he isn’t just wildly flailing about condemning “China” or even the government as being categorically evil or anything. So, I think both sides really need to acknowledge and remind themselves that there are good, fair, and earnest individuals on both sides, but that there are also the idiots on both sides who tend to screw things up. It is equally true that there are Chinese who have knee-jerk defenses whenever anything “China” is criticized just as there are knee-jerk offenses from foreigners whenever anything “China” is being discussed. The first step to bridging this gap is to know who you’re talking to and talk to that person with the due respect they ought to be accorded for their rational engagement with you on the actual issues to be discussed.
Just as it is frustrating for Dana to see so many non-Chinese criticize China, seemingly failing to account for the progress that the CCP has made, it is equally frustrating for No Links to see so many Chinese categorically defend “China,” seemingly unable to separate the CCP from the Chinese people or the nation of China. Both of you have legitimate and understandable grievances. Neither of you are wrong. The key is getting more reasonable people (perhaps you two) to have fruitful conversations without it degenerating into categorical tit for tats. Both sides need to know when to dismiss the other side and when to engage the other side. Both sides also need to know when to acknowledge, compromise, reject, or continue rationally discussing the other side’s points.
No Links: Do you understand Dana’s point that Chinese people are often frustrated by non-Chinese criticism of China, understandably taking it personally, and feeling that non-Chinese often fail to acknowledge China’s advances, successes, or progress?
Dana: Do you understand No Link’s point that Non-Chinese people are often frustrated by Chinese seemingly unable to separate the government from the people/nation and consistently responding to all criticism of the Chinese government by changing the subject to “let’s talk about China’s advances/progress?”
LOL, SniperWZ’s going to start a flame war on PKD?????
Good luck dude.
Cuz There is this Sith Lord that tells me that it’s not trivial to get past their Force defenses, soon as you post something negative their Force Erase will delete your post. However, this Sith Lord recommends hacking the site; the Force must be strong within you.
I haven’t noticed Dana comment before (I don’t read the Duck’s comments very much). If what AndyR says is true, then I guess I might’ve just cobbled together far more “utterly meaningless words” than No Links.
If the conclusion one is meant to draw from Dana’s arguments is “none of you should ever criticize China/China’s government” then I agree it might not be worth paying much heed to. If it is meant to temper one from categorically insinuating that China is pure evil (or, you know inherently “tyrannical and villainous” *cough* carryanne *cough*), then that’s okay.
So far, though and personally, I think Dana has made his/her points in a reasonable manner (except for the Peking Duck bit).
I guess I’ll make this short and sweet because I need to study:
No-links, I do criticize the CCP. I have a blog. It’s an entertainment one however (actually, Kai, I linked to your site before) and I absolutely hate SARFT.
My main point was not criticism of the CCP itself, but criticism of people who think Chinese people are not criticizing and are brainwashed, which everyone here such as AndyR is saying, still, after I said all that. They can’t understand Chinese or read the forums yet they think they know China so well and are positive that we overlook CCP’s flaws, when in reality, the only time we say stuff like that is when some person makes dumb, uneducated remarks like “CCP apologetic here, nothing to see, move along”. Amongst Chinese people there is a hell of a lot more criticism than on sites where English speakers are having their little, “Oh, I think I’ll condescend to comment of the nature of China. How poor and unfortunate these Chinese are and they don’t even know.” moments.
Ironically, I think what really finally goaded me about PD was not China but was the staunch anti-Republicanism there. He almost talks about them as if they are sub-human.
Just wondering when this blog will be “harmonized”.
Wait and see.
Ugh, I just read your last comment Kai. That was so disappointing.
1) That you’re so easily influenced by that guy’s one short little comment after all that I put the effort into writing and 2) That “If the conclusion one is meant to draw from Dana’s arguments is “none of you should ever criticize China/China’s government” is what people are reading.
I’m the idiot who spends the better part of an hour commenting, and yet has obviously not made any point I was trying to make.
@ Dana:
Wow, you’re mighty sensitive, aren’t you? Throwing a hissy fit like that…
I read your comments and bothered to write a long response acknowledging and defending your points, but you’re going to casting faux disappointment in me?
Not exactly the best way of getting people to be sympathetic to you and your arguments, Dana.
Bottom line, however, is that I acknowledged there’s two sides to what you might end up representing. I stated that so far and personally, I thought you made your points in a reasonable manner. Before that, I said that if the point of your arguments were to temper discourse of China, that’s good too. Didn’t I say that Chinese people actually criticize the CPP quite a lot amongst themselves?
Did you miss all that? Do you have selective reading? Am I supposed to ignore what other people say and just blindly agree with you? What have I gotten wrong so far? Have I unwittingly become your straw man? Seriously, wtf are you going on about against me?
But hey, are you happy now…sabotaging yourself and the first person on this website to praise you and argue for your points?
Look, Dana, go ahead and make your point if you think I’ve missed it. But, please re-read what I’ve written and be sure you, you know, CORRECT me by citing an explaining just where I’ve gotten it wrong. Surely, “getting” your point doesn’t require me to agree with you wholesale, right?
SniperWZ,
Actually, take 5 min googling and you will see Wordpress sucks ballz, PHP suck ballz…. They all suck major ballz.
Copy and Paste again:
My main point was not criticism of the CCP itself, but criticism of people who think Chinese people are not criticizing and are brainwashed, which everyone here such as AndyR is saying, still, after I said all that. They can’t understand Chinese or read the forums yet they think they know China so well and are positive that we overlook CCP’s flaws, when in reality, the only time we say stuff like that is when some person makes dumb, uneducated remarks like “CCP apologetic here, nothing to see, move along”. Amongst Chinese people there is a hell of a lot more criticism than on sites where English speakers are having their little, “Oh, I think I’ll condescend to comment of the nature of China. How poor and unfortunate these Chinese are and they don’t even know.” moments.
Oh and my problem in second comment was that after saying how reasonable I gave my argument, just after reading AndyR’s “She an CCP apologetic” you seemed to change your mind.
How about this novel idea.
China has enough money to throw World Parties and launch a space program etc,etc…all for the glory of the CHINESE PEOPLE.
Nobody said that the Hukou system is a totally bad system. This was not the debate. My question is why can’t there be some form of program in place where the education of children under 18 is PAID FOR.
Stop burning money retracing the steps of innovators from the 1960’s and just educate your masses.
I am sure that many of you know the answer…
@Veer.
It’s the same reason why the US has Nasa and wars and yet there are still poor people who can’t afford to live anywhere or pay for healthcare.
@ Dana:
Sigh. Can you please show me how the sum total of my statements thus far misunderstand your point? I believe I understood your point, reiterated it, and even defended it.
So why are you “disappointed” with me? Why did you feel a copy and paste was necessary anyway?
I think you read too much into my comment after AndyR. Maybe you and AndyR have a history of bad blood, I don’t know, but I don’t think anything I said suggested I “changed my mind.” What I said was “IF” what he said is true that you’re a CCP apologist (which, in my mind, is someone who irrationally defends the CCP no matter what), then MAYBE I’m giving you too much credit for being reasonable. Then I gave two possibilities and AGAIN stated that my impression thus far was that you’re reasonable.
Wasn’t that a reasonable vote of confidence based upon what I do know of you? I acknowledged the comments of someone who seems to know you longer yet sided with my personal experience. Isn’t that appropriate?
Relax, Dana. I don’t think we should have much beef against each other.
@ Veer Left:
Isn’t providing free and compulsory education tracing the steps of others also? No one is denying that providing such is not just ideal but what they want to do (and I believe they’re working on it), not least of all the Chinese or the Chinese government. That said, we live in a world where there are a lot of things we need or want to do that offer different, even unexpected, pros and cons. At the same time, there is only a set, limited amount of resources to devote to them all. Hard decisions are made and they are not always right. Even as Americans poured money into their nascent space program in the 60s, Americans criticized it as a waste of resources that could have been used to tackle existing social ills, inequities, and other long-standing widespread problems. So why did the Americans do it?
Maybe they thought it was worth it? Maybe the Chinese do. Maybe not everyone agrees but that’s life. What we cannot deny is that many Chinese who are proud with the Olympic Games and Space Program just as there are those who are upset with it. Not everyone is going to be happy, and the bottom line is they probably don’t really care what YOU (a non-Chinese) think just as Americans largely don’t care what non-Americans think about how America spends its resources. Don’t you think it is at least a little silly for you to soap-box and moralize what the Chinese should do with their resources. Don’t you find it incredibly difficult to resolve the reality of the situation that it is their money and their choice?
Why CAN’T the Chinese aspire to reach space at the expense of other things? Seriously, why NOT? How fundamentally different is it from someone who opts to purchase an iPhone instead of donating that money to a homeless shelter? What you feel justified in asking of the Chinese government in this case is simply unrealistic. It is a decision. You can disagree with it, but it is difficult for you to say they can’t make their own decision. Doing so would veritably transgress the very notions of freedom the “West” ostensibly stands for. Freedom includes the choice to do things that others disagree with.
If you really want the Chinese to invest more in social programs instead of image-projects (which have a plethora of hard to quantify benefits), I don’t think you’re going about it the right way. So, ask yourself, what is it that you really want? For China to invest more in social programs or merely to chastise China like a child who doesn’t do what you, the parent, says she should do?
In a way the Space Program and Olympics were good for the SELF-ESTEEM of China….so, I can see some justification for it.
@Kai
Unfortunately Veer Left expressed himself in a condescending way, even though the root of what he’s saying is something I agree with.
I know I’m not Chinese, and I know China has the right to spend its money in any way shape or form it wishes to. However, I don’t think comparing it to the situation in USA in the 60’s is a tenable position. America in the 60’s was a world superpower in nowhere near the same situation that China is in now. They had a lot more “money to burn” than China does now, and they really had something to gain by getting into space first before the Russians.
I think China also had something important to gain by going into space, but I think it could have waited 5-10 (or even more) years until they tried to cure some of their more serious social problems. The idea of education that Veer Left threw out there isn’t a bad one.
Just my opinion, a cracker in China.
You should remember, Chinese mainland is such a magical land. Everything can happen, even this kind of f**king things.
@ Teacher in China:
I agree that Veer Left was being condescending. I also believe the opinion that the resources would be better spent on social programs is not inherently right or wrong. That’s why my point was NOT that China was “right” to spend the money how it did, but rather that China ultimately makes its own decisions.
There is nothing wrong with Veer Left wanting to prompt Chinese people to consider the costs (and opportunity costs) of their decisions, but there are far more constructive ways of engaging the Chinese than what Veer Left did. His condescension ultimately backfires and hurts the cause of promoting more investment in social welfare initiatives. Is that what he wants? If not, then he should take pains to respect the ultimate fact that Chinese make their own decisions. If he wants to be constructive, then he would be wise to influence, not demand.
While it is no excuse for Chinese people to stick their fingers in their ears, it is Veer Left’s sort of self-righteous condescension that deadlocks meaningful discourse between even the well-intentioned on both sides.
I trust you agree with what I’m saying here.
Now, to tangent into a discussion of its own, I think it is arguable whether or not you can say America “really had something to gain by getting into space first before the Russians.”
1. Didn’t the Russians get into space first (Sputnik)?
2. If the Americans had something to gain/lose, then so did the Russians, right?
3. If the Russians, a communist entity also burdened with grave social ills, had something to gain/lose from racing the Americans, then how far removed would the Chinese be for wanting to get into space themselves?
Do you understand what I mean? These are value judgments.
I really do believe arguments that try to “justify” American space program in an effort to “delegitimatize” any other country’s space program is arbitrary and subjective. Moreover, EVEN IF a country’s aspirations for space are purely for “bragging rights,” so what? It isn’t the first time a country on this planet has done something others don’t agree with, right?
I don’t think China’s reasons for pursuing space need to be measured by the same motivations or rationale used by the Americans or the Russians. Maybe they do it “just because.” I think a good amount of people who throw out these criticisms against China hosting the Olympics or having a space program are rather disingenuous.
Again, there’s nothing wrong with having a different opinion, but people need to stop dictating as if China is somehow “uniquely” moronic compared to everyone else for not somehow solving all of its social problems before investing/blowing some money on whatever it damn well feels like. Acting like this just BEGS indignant Chinese to respond by highlighting the undeniable fact that other countries have not sorted all their problems (even grave ones) before indulging in aspirational ventures themselves.
Again, remember, “value judgments.”
God damn it, this is horrible…. I live in nj and i can’t believe what i’m reading…. How could humans be so horrible in this world. All this beautiful child wants is to lean and play with the other kids…. Put yourself in her shoes, how will you feel if it was your kid watching the other kids playing and learning while your kids watch from afar? This totally breaks my heart.
i meant “learn and play”
I live in the US. China is still in the dark ages. If there are too many children in the school, as one comment stated, then BUILD MORE SCHOOLS. Oh, I forgot. China is communist and, therefore, isn’t rational.
I think people don’t know about the compulsory education system in China. 9 years public education is paid for in China. However, the children can only go to school where their parents have their hukou. This guy shouldn’t have brought his daughter into the city where she can’t have a education, but have to find a private one. He should do what most migrant workers do. Leave her with her grandparents or relatives for school. This is not a problem of more spending. This is a problem of sending the children to designated schools.
Everyone deserve education regardless of ethnicity unless they themselve refuse it. Case close no arguments.
Oh, sweet sweet irony.
I wonder if Melanie knows that the Communist system in China has actually expanded educational opportunities to more Chinese people than any system China ever before. It is one of the few things they can legitimately call a success. This doesn’t mean only the communist system can achieve such a feat but you have to give credit where it is due. Too many people in this world are blindly ignorant of what “communism” actually is, especially in relation to China.
Anyway, as Haha mentioned, a lot of people here have the right sympathetic heart but they’re completely ignorant of what the real problem is. This isn’t about communism or the right to education, this is about the realities and logistics of a massive migrating population and how that population affects the infrastructure of social services.
China does provide guaranteed education to all students in China but it is indeed constrained by the hukou system. You may not like it but the current reality is that social services cannot magically expand instantly to accommodate everyone. It sucks but that’s life. Everyone should understand this.
On one hand, asking people to stay in their hometowns provides their children with free education but infringes upon their “freedom of movement.” On the other hand, allowing them freedom of movement affects their “right to education.”
Guys, this is a complex problem. Everyone here identifies with and feels for the kid. How could you not? Just looking at that picture and most people are reminded of their childhood fears of wanting to be accepted. LoL. But seriously, it really isn’t as easy as we all wish it were. We can blame a zillion things for the current situation but that’s just blaming and not solving. Plus, if you’re going to blame, at least blame the right things. Don’t just say “ho ho, its communism.” Try not to embarrass yourself.
@sameal
Our malaysian goverment is not practising systematic discrimination. I do agree that our goverment’s effort to help the malays may seem unfair but the non-malays are not denied any education just because you are a migrant like what happens to the poor little girl.
@Kai
Yes, we’re agreed on your first point. Constructive and friendly criticism is always better than condescending comments.
One issue I really have here Kai is that I still think you’re making an unfair comparison, and you haven’t really addressed that fully in your response. Comparing what China is doing in its space program to what the USA was doing in the 60s isn’t logical. America in the 60s was a completely different place than China is now: it was a LOT more developed first of all, and it was engaged in what many people saw at the time as a life and death struggle with the “evil communists”. The whole space race wasn’t just about getting bragging rights, it was about proving that your system of government and way of life was better than the other one; it was a front of the Cold War.
So, when you wrote
“Even as Americans poured money into their nascent space program in the 60s, Americans criticized it as a waste of resources that could have been used to tackle existing social ills, inequities, and other long-standing widespread problems. So why did the Americans do it?”
in response to Veer Left, I just picked on it as somewhat of an unfair comparison.
Whether or not America really “had something to gain” is I suppose up for debate at this point in history. But it’s not really what we’re talking about is it? As you said it’s all about value judgments. I can look back at America and USSR in the 60s and make a value judgment from my current perspective, a historical one, and say that it was silly. How much have we really gained from the space race, and could that money have been spent in ways to better the living standards of just about everyone in America? Sure. But be careful about making historical value judgments (did I just invent a phrase?) because at the time it was the most important thing in their lives. I’m repeating myself here, sorry.
Now, to the crux: China’s space program. I can, as an outsider and non-Chinese, make a judgment of what I see as the value of their program. It’s called giving an opinion. I’m allowed that. I can also choose how to go about it: 1)I can be a condescending smart-ass 2)I can be full-out insulting and childish 3)I can simply give my opinion and support it with my reasons. Now I think I understand what you mean when you say “value judgments” in a negative way, but I don’t see it as always being negative. I make my judgment on something’s value, then someone else comments on their opinion of its value, then someone else and so on; maybe we can discover some new facts or ideas about what the value really is. In my personal opinion, there was no need for China to race into space at this particular time. They had a huge publicity and spirit-enhancing (not to mention expensive) event already this year in the Olympic Games. Why the rush to do so much so soon? It is my opinion that the money spent on going into space could have been better spent on many other things at this point in time in China’s development.
I think I’ve seen this conversation pop up before – I think it was in the Japanese students thread – the idea of people giving opinions and Chinese people getting their feathers ruffled. I think the way you express it is pretty well done, that somehow people from the West feel the need to get obnoxious about their opinions about China, singling it out as “uniquely moronic” as you said. I agree that’s unfair. Then there are those who “want to stop China from making the same mistakes we made” – I’m sure it’s true in some cases, but it almost sounds like thinly veiled condescension to me – people need to make their own mistakes in order to learn properly, and I think that goes for countries too.
Anyways, I’m rambling a little now. It’s amazing what can happen while procrastinating…
@ Teacher in China
I’m pretty sure the policy makers and engineers in China are very clear in mind that the “national pride” is only a side affect comparing to the military usage of space program. Yes, China indeed has many domestic problems to solve, but developing an independent space program is a necessary part of China’s development. To become a superpower, only a strong economy is far from enough but we also needs a strong military, otherwise China can only be a regional power, like Japan. I support China’s space program just like that I think a good anti-satellite missile program is a must have. In cold war, the world’s stabilization was achieved by the two superpower’s nuclear MAD(mutual assured destroy) and in today’s high-tech warfare the anti-satellite capability is a key for maintaining balance between superpowers. You can’t have such capability (and corresponding soft power projection) without a decent space program. US clearly knows it too, which is the reason why China has been consistently denied to ISS(international space station), and a systematic space industry is the only way to get China there, even it’s expensive. China has to develop in all aspects to become a superpower, in economy also in space tech. The budget China spends on space program is not too much but very limited comparing to China’s economic scale and ambition.
Anyway, as an engineer, I support any kinds of funding from government :)
@ Teacher in China:
LoL, I’m glad I’m not the only one who is verbose.
I’m not sure why comparing China’s freedom to decide how to invest/blow its resources to America’s freedom to do likewise is not logical.
Now, it appears that you’re making a fatal assumption that it is only logical for a country to pursue a space program if they have reached a certain level of economic development. That is likely why you feel it was okay for America but is not okay for China. That is also why I cautioned you to consider the USSR and why they opted to engage in a space-race with the United States. They too have not reached your presumed requisite of economic development, yet they did it anyway. More interestingly, them doing so actually motivated the Americans to do so. Now isn’t that an intricate web?
The bottom line is that you’re holding onto an artificial requisite to justify or legitimize an interest in space. That is rhetorically unsound vis a vis reality. It ignores subjective value and tries to bind (and judge) everyone by some arbitrary objective standard (that you dictate).
Now, doing that is quite natural. It is the foundation for “opinion” after all, but you must recognize that rhetorical flaw in your reasoning. As I said before, so what if China is pursuing space only because it “feels like it?” You can make a value-judgment of it, but you cannot actually argue that it is somehow intrinsically illogical or unreasonable, especially to the subject/decision-maker. You are not in a position of understanding the decision-maker’s set of values. Absent that information, you cannot conclude conclusively (heh) whether or not such a decision is actually illogical or unreasonable to the party you are simultaneously arguing it affects.
Keanu whoa. Might need to read that one over again.
In other words, if you say China is hurting itself by investing money into the space instead of more money into (for example) social programs, that is your opinion based upon your set of values. Is China actually hurting itself? Maybe, or maybe China thinks it is a reasonable trade-off and that their decision’s sum total benefit is more than its sum-total loss. You might have a different interpretation of those benefits and losses, but dammit, those are value-judgments again. See the rhetorical problem?
We have to be careful when we make absolutist statements and judgments. Why? Because if you fail to occasionally check yourself, you end up judging instead of communicating, dictating instead of discussing.
1. Would the space race (or any competitive activity) be utterly meaningless if it were reduced to “bragging rights?”
2. Do you think China’s space program is only about “bragging rights?” Might you be discounting the power of inspiration or “holy shit, we can do it too!”
3. So what about the Cold War? Isn’t China still trying to prove something about its own ideological system of governance versus the liberal democracy that everyone continues to pressure it to adopt? How is that different from the Cold War dichotomy of “evil communism” vs. “evil capitalism?”
Sometimes I wonder if some Americans are touchy about China’s space program because deep down inside it makes them feel less special or something. Geez, get over yourselves, right?
But do you see what I mean? Do you see how many assumptions and value-judgments are present in the very premises you use for your conclusion that China should not be pursuing space right now? More on this below…
BTW, I wasn’t making historical value judgments. I was bringing up the fact that many Americans did not think the space race was worth the investment even at that time. That is historical record, not a judgment made by me standing here in 2008.
That’s fine. Many Chinese, including myself, actually agree with this opinion. The best part is how you expressed your opinion. It is largely non-judgmental and non-condescending, with a stated position and stated reasons (there was already the Olympics and there are other things you feel could’ve yielded better ROI).
No one, least of all me, was denying you an opinion. I’m not sure why you got that impression.
That said, and in the interest of conversation, I do want to point out that you’re again assuming China’s space program exists only for publicity and spirit-enhancing. Did you notice that? So, to repeat, 1) so what if it is, and 2) what if it isn’t? Then what?
Then you might make a new set of opinions trying to rationalize your existing opinion and there’s a good possibility I could poke holes in your opinion regressing into infinity.
I don’t think we need to do that. However, I do think we need to agree on the main points I thought all of this was really about:
1. Try to understand why others make the decisions they do, and be careful about the assumptions you may be making.
2. Feel free to judge/have an opinion but determine what your actual goal is.
3. Express your opinion/judgment in a way that maximizes your chances of accomplishing your goal.
If you goal is to insult/offend/belittle/demean/etc. the other, let it fly. Don’t be surprised by the reaction you’ll probably get. If you goal is to influence the other person to agree with you, then it is YOUR responsibility to figure out how to do that. It is NEVER the other party’s responsibility to simply “get it,” much less “agree.” You’ll probably realize that the methods you use to offend or insult don’t work very well.
Finally, recognize that how you carry yourself through all of that speaks volumes about your assumptions, your values, your thinking process, and who you are as a person. It is unavoidable. That’s life. No one said communicating effectively and influencing others effectively was easy. Heaven knows I struggle with it daily.
@ Teacher in China:
I think USTCer gave a few good examples for what the space program may mean beyond just “bragging rights.” Those are good arguments, and you need to ask yourself if insisting that China scrap “aspirational” programs like the space program until they solve their economic development problems is a tenable position. Wouldn’t such a position boil down to you dictating what China can or cannot do? Wouldn’t it boil down to you expecting that China seek approval from you before making their own decisions and spending their own resources?
I trust you see what I mean. Again, this doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion, but it does mean anyone expressing such opinions ought to ACKNOWLEDGE these potential interpretations of said opinion.
I can tell you that most people can’t be bothered to be so humble. That is a major difference between a those who solve and those who only care to prescribe.
Understand the school has rules to follow, understand the background of the girl’s family. But let this poor girl standing outside the classroom for so long and pretending not seen is just so so wrong. Shame on those teachers and the shitty headmaster!
@ Kai
Jeebus…go away for 5 days and now I have a book to read…and to write… ;)
OK, first, my mistake:
“No one, least of all me, was denying you an opinion. I’m not sure why you got that impression.”
You’re right. With long threads, I sometimes rely on memory instead of rereading everything, you never actually said or even implied it. My mistake. We had been talking about another poster being condescending, etc etc and I went off on that because it’s a pet peeve of mine.
Other stuff:
Yes, the USSR did engage in the space race even though they weren’t up to the standard of what I deemed to be a requisite level of economic and social development; and yes, that influenced the US to do it too. All true. And, before I proceed I’d like to qualify my statement of “bragging rights”. After looking back at it again, I don’t think that quite expresses my thoughts clearly enough. In a way, it was almost solely about “bragging rights” – as in, “we did it first, so our country (and therefore our communist/capitalist system) is better than yours.” Again, my point here is that both of them had really a lot to gain at that time. Those were the only two superpowers in the world at the time, battling it out on every front imaginable, so any victory of any kind (symbolic, military or otherwise) was huge. Thus, the USSR had a lot to gain from “winning” this, so it made sense to them to pursue space exploration even though there were possibly a lot of other things they could have spent their money on.
I still think that in no way is China in the same situation right now. I agree that the idea of “We can do it too!” is an important one and it shouldn’t be discounted completely.
“Wouldn’t such a position boil down to you dictating what China can or cannot do? Wouldn’t it boil down to you expecting that China seek approval from you before making their own decisions and spending their own resources?”
I can see what you mean that some people could interpret it in that way, and this goes back to what we were saying before about how foreigners express opinions about China and how Chinese react to those opinions. It’s certainly possible for anyone to take any statement (especially one posted on the internet, where you can’t rely on any body language or other context to help you understand the real meaning) in the wrong way and lead it down a path the writer never intended. It’s also possible for foreigners to express opinions in the way that, as you said earlier, singles out China as being “uniquely moronic”. Personally, I’ve never said that China can or can’t do anything it wants. They could build a goddamn space station run by highly trained monkeys that uses panda cubs for fuel for all I care….actually, I would care – panda cubs are so cute! I’ve only ever said that I don’t agree with it, and I think you’re blowing it out of proportion to say suddenly that it would lead to me dictating terms to China and China seeking my approval. Are there people (and countries, possibly) out there that do think that way? Probably. Do they have good solid warm-hearted intentions that are just getting misinterpreted? Maybe, maybe not. But there are other people out there who just like weighing in on things without getting anywhere close to dictating the terms of another countries’ development.
I do have one problem with something you said though (but I can’t quote it as fancifully as you can, with colours and sh*t ;):
“You are not in a position of understanding the decision-maker’s set of values. Absent that information, you cannot conclude conclusively (heh) whether or not such a decision is actually illogical or unreasonable to the party you are simultaneously arguing it affects.”
The problem I have with this possibly comes from my culture. In Canada (as well as other parts of the western world) we are pretty open to criticizing the government about just about everything. How often do we ever know the set of values of the government, and the real reasons why they are doing something? I’m not sure of the answer to that question. If we never know the values and reasons, does that mean we can never criticize anything at all? I’m not sure that’s a good idea, since often the criticism itself can often lead to a more open discussion of what those values and/or reasons actually are, thus increasing transparency and discussion of the given topic. I would personally love to know the governments reasoning behind it. If it’s anything like USTCer suggested, it could definitely make me change my mind about the whole thing.
Anyways, that’s seriously all I have time for. I actually read your comments yesterday but haven’t had enough time over these last two days to assimilate and formulate a good response. Damn work, getting in the way of the internet!
Hey, this was fun by the way. Even though it was fun, could you keep the response to less than 1000 words? ;)
@ Teacher in China:
LoL, well, I’m trying not to comment too much on chinaSMACK anymore. Getting old and no longer feel like I can stem the never-ending tide of idiocy. Best for me to stick to the sidelines as the commenter community expands further. Maybe you understand. However, I do enjoy discussions with civil, rational folk like you. Okay, I’ll try to be concise;
Consider what China has to gain from the space program, both at home domestically and on the global/international scale. Then try to put yourself in the shoes of the ruling single-party Communist government, quite possibly the only “communist”, “non-liberal democracy” that commands any acknowledgment and influence (Putin Russia is arguable) in the modern world years after the fall of the “communist” USSR.
Do you think you might be discounting or unable to see what victory (symbolic, military, or otherwise) the Chinese government might have, especially amongst its own populace, the very people who grant the rulers their legitimacy?
This is why I am not surprised when you write:
Notice the “I.” The key oversights in your argument are your value-judgments. You’re still looking at their decisions from the perspective of an outsider with different values, motivations, and goals. My response to you is that it really isn’t that hard to think of what is motivating the Chinese government (or people) to make the decisions they do. Without understanding their motives, it is that much harder to influence them, right?
Oh, I’m not actually accusing you of that, I’m merely playing out the logical consequences of that line of thought. You must admit that it is not just an interpretation but, on some philosophical level, a truth. Is telling others what to do wrong? Not necessarily, but it is by-product of limited beings seeking to control their environment. My main thrust is not that control or even seeking to control is inherently wrong (nay, it is natural), but that there are more or less successful ways of controlling or seeking to control. This is why we agree that condescension doesn’t work well in this situation.
Try using [blockquote] and [/blockquote] but replacing the enclosing brackets with the greater than > and lesser than < marks. The second blockquote closes off what you wanted to quote.
Again, the above is more or less philosophical point-hammering. It again reiterates that we are limited beings who are limited in our understanding of what motivates others to do what they do. Hence, any judgment of another’s decisions and actions are necessarily limited to our own subjective awareness and belief sets.
In reality, we all still go about judging others. I mentioned this to help people understand their limitations in judging others and therefore hopefully adjust how they judge in order to maximize their chances of actually influencing others to the outcome they desire. Someone who disagrees with others, doesn’t give a shit what they think, and chooses to dictate/prescribe/force them into submission will have a harder time than someone who disagrees with others but then first seeks to understand others before influencing them.
So the answer to your question:
Abso-fucking-lutely not. Again, my point was about HOW one criticizes, not whether one does or not. However, I guess you can say I DO think it is better for one to NOT criticize than to criticize BADLY. Why? Because those idiots make everything harder.
I think we’re largely in agreement, brother man, though on the more mundane subject of the US vs USSR vs China space programs, I guess I am a bit more sympathetic to (but not necessarily in full agreement with) the Chinese government blowing the cash pursuing it than you are. Cheers.
Very interesting, you’ve certainly given me a lot to think about. One day when I have more time I may actually sit down and respond ;)
Keep on fighting the good fight!
Please send me some sort of contact information for this child’s father. I’d like to help out if I can.
daikelisi@yahoo.com
Dana,
What a lucky chappie you are, your english is so impresive, evidently you didn’t have to hang around outside a classroom to learn.
I can only imagine and hope that that little girl will have more empathy and a hunanistic approach to life and to her fellow people than you have. At least she will have humility in her life.
Come on, the kid does’t belong to the school district, and the parent tried to bribe their way in unsuccessfully.
Even in US students are not usually accepted outside their school district.
Here, in US primary school enrollment is subject to residency verification:
http://www.google.com/search?q=primary+school+enrollment+residency+verification
We all have someone very close and dear to our hearts (children, brothers and sisters) and we will certainly be parents one day. The fact that the poor girl standing outside the classroom for 20 days in the cold just goes to show who do we have in the schools. Those who are in charge from the school concern up till the officers in the villages, town and province ought to be hang by their toes for as long as the little girl had been standing outside the classroom. Shame on you – Teachers, Principals and government officials !!
sh, what about the parents who keep sending their daughter to the wrong school and leave her there in the cold for 20 days? They are blameless?
Feel free to hate China, just don’t let the facts get in the way.
Even if the parents are wrong…shouldn’t the school do something ? instead of leaving the poor girl stand there for 20 days or more ?
I do not hate China, I think China is great. The problem is with those who are in authority and do nothing about it.
i really don’t mind looking after that child and her education, poor girl, how much money China spend to get the Olympics but they couldn’t see the inner poverty living just next to there trashcans. stupid people!!!
Ah, the classic troll. Take a specific example, generalize then bash everyone in the process.
Agree 100% with igi. The Olympics is just 1 big sham.
The athletes competing often are not the best in the world. Theres way too much cheating. It doesn’t help the local economy in the long run.
The Olympics only does 1 thing, waste money.
Dana…. what can i say to your self rightous arrogance… ??? Maybe.. your still a self rightous Chinese (Oriental) twat with an inferior complex?
The ignorant person that wrote this comment:
“Everyone has their own duty. The duty of a farmer is to cultivate the fields, his daughter should research how to cultivate fields. Studying is for us city dwellers, hehe.”
really shows how educated they are. This person should be the one working in a field, because this person has the mentality that plague and leech off government.
I strongly believe that if a nation is to progress and grow it should be to educate all it’s children. Many will not make it, but that is there choice and they will be the ones working the fields, and the ones that do make it are the ones that will make a strong government and take this country to the next level.
Until the children and people of China are truly allowed to move about the country freely, how can the system be fixed? By blocking this group and that person from living in Shanghai/Beijing/Guangzhou(where the best schools are)we’re dooming the countryside to the vicious cycle of poor schools, poor children, and poor parents. In this time of economic crisis people are being forced to return West, and to what? It’s like “busing” inner city kids in Chicago. You’ve got to give these kids a chance and you can’t do that with excuses and policy restrictions. The poor are on the doorsteps of the rich, ignore them at your own peril.
As a human…let that poor girl study…unless u r not a human…maybe i m not qualified to comment on the education policy of prc but for us in Malaysia…education is for all,even for foreigner…i have a lot of Chinese friend n from what heard from them,i only can said that…u r nothing if not given the chance [to whom it may concern]