From Mop, “Friend Was Raped, Who Can Tell Me What To Do?“:
I have a good friend, a girl, who is to be married on October 1st. However, just before her wedding, this unfortunate incident occurred:
The night before the Mid-Autumn Festival, when everyone was basking in the festive mood, my friend was raped. The vicious man even used his phone to take pictures of my friend after she was violated. My friend tried to take his phone to delete the pictures but was unsuccessful – she was even beaten really badly.
The same night, she told me what happened over SMS and my first thought was to call the police. However, there is a lot to consider:
- She is getting married in October, if this incident is made public, it is very possible that it will affect her future.
- The police chiefs of nearby police stations in the area are either colleagues or friends of her future father-in-law; if she reports this incident, her father-in-law will definitely find out. Whether or not her public servant father-in-law (who is a very traditional man) can accept a “shamed” daughter-in-law is unknown. Indeed, gossip can be malicious.
- She is afraid of hurting her husband and how the incident will cast a shadow on their relationship.
If we don’t call the police, the criminal remains above the law and this will also be a worry:
- It is very possible that this criminal will continue harming other girls, and nobody would want their loved ones to be the next victim.
- The criminal has pictures of my friend. Maybe in the future when her life is stable these pictures might surface and be used for extortion – after experiencing such trauma and finally being able to move on with life, nobody would want to get hurt a second time.
- If she remains silent about this incident, she will always remember this incident everytime she looks at her husband – even if she is the victim.
Dear Moppers, please don’t take this incident lightly as an unhappy love affair; because it truly is unfortunate. This didn’t happen to your loved ones so of course it’s easy to take it lightly.
Please think about how to handle the situation to alleviate her pain~~ All of you who visit Mop please don’t be perverts!
This story was first posted on Mop about a week ago. There are over 1800 comments on Mop. Here are some:
Call the police
The person involved is the writer of this post. She plays around and then spins a yarn on Mop to gain sympathy and even tries to be righteous, bitch!
If she doesn’t call the police, it’ll be even worse when her father-in-law finds out!
Call the police, and she must be honest with her husband. If he doesn’t accept you, it means that he doesn’t love you as much as you think he does. If he comforts you and accepts you, then you really can be with him for life.
Must discuss this with her husband
Let her husband decide, it’s better to explain now than it is later. The husband then discusses it with his father. Let them decide if they want to call the police.
I’ve already said, not reporting this can lead to a situation.
He might want your money after you get married.
Preposition you with sexual favours
It’s possible that when you give him the money he will rape you again.
You might satisfy him this time but he might want more money in the future.
Rape again.
An endless cycle; until you call the police or one of you drops dead.
My understanding so far…
Must call the police, don’t hesitate.
Just have to consider that she is a woman, must definitely call the police or she will be helping the rapist escape punishment.
If her husband loves her, he will definitely understand her and love her.
If he doesn’t love her then she might as well not get married.
Don’t bear this by yourself and let it become a lifetime burden.
Hire a contract killer
Being reasonable in this society is useless.
You can only survive by being more ruthless than others.
To be honest, when I see posts like this I can’t be bothered to comment. A large number of women and their various inattentions in daily life have given lechers ample opportunity. If they really care about themselves, their family, they should learn how to protect themselves. Since this has happened already, I believe the most viable option is to discuss it with her boyfriend, and the call the police. Don’t be afraid, because true colours are revealed in difficult times, if you remain silent, you won’t be able to face other repercussions in the future. A man who truly loves you will bear this burden with you, and let that criminal face the consequences he deserves.
Life is just like rape, since you can’t fight it, you might as well enjoy it. lz, what do you think?
If there’s too much consideration, it’s simple, was she a virgin before the rape?
If calling the police is a must, then you’ve already delayed enough.
If not, why bother calling the police.
1: Call the police and ask the black society for help (What’s important is to find the pictures)
2: Break up with the boyfriend! (The boyfriend and his family don’t want to live with the shadow of her incident). Also, how was she raped? Please choose:
A: She ran into a bad person after finishing work at night! (Worth sympathising)
B: Was she raped by someone she knew? (That’s not good)
Let her think it through, Writer
Lots of rich men’s wives still go for male prostitutes, just take your friend as a prostitute.
She fucked a guy for free, so…
I don’t think it’s wrong.
Use violence to deal with violence, it might not be any use to call the police…
It might cause more trouble.
After all, the police in real life aren’t as responsible as the ones you see on television
I’d rather you really tried to resist
What I’m trying to say is, a man who truly loves you does not care about your virginity, but you women will never understand.
Ask someone from the black society to get rid of the rapist…
She can hide if no pictures were taken
But if pictures were really taken I suggest she call the police immediately, or else two days later it will be all over the internet.
Call the police!
If you call the police, you might lose your husband, and everything in the future. If you believe you can hide this for your entire life and not call the police, can you really do that? The pictures are in someone’s hands, you won’t know when he’ll come looking for you!
I suggest not to call the police, even if you do call the police there isn’t much you can do, you’d also be kicking up a fuss. To the police, these trivial cases aren’t important because even if they solve the case they won’t get much credit.
Call the police. Traditional values will be the death of you.
The main thing is her husband’s attitude, if he is understanding then it’s alright to call the police.
The family should be secondary. She was raped, the wrongdoer was the rapist, it’s unavoidable and I think it is understandable.
If I was her father-in-law I’d let her call the police.
She should first tell her future husband because what he thinks is important. Good job, Writer!
1. Calm down, don’t call the police, look for evidence (if any) and retain it.
2. Tell your husband, because of no alternative reasons, postpone the wedding to avoid her husband accusing her of lying to him.
3. Call the police when the rapist surfaces again, or you could directly seek him out with the help of others, beat him to a pulp, and then call the police to catch him.
4. Be honest with your husband, see what he thinks and then decide if you get married.
Get married first.
The rapist is a stranger, so it will be hard to find him in a short time. Never tell your husband, bear the pain yourself, don’t let your husband be affected by your incident during the happiest time of his life. Find some other way to find the bastard and use violence to deal with violence!
You didn’t call the police immediately after it happened so forget about calling the police.
The days will pass.
It’s no big deal even if your luck is good.
I’m guessing you can’t convince your friend either.
Sad, I’m so sad.
Why is it always women who get hurt~~~
Physically
Psychologically
Customary values dictate that women are victims.
Believe me~ If you call the police, not only will you not catch the bastard, you will also expose your personal tragedy, and at that time you will be paying double the price for your actions.
Looks like only the black society can handle this, if you’ve got money, anything can be done!
If she totally doesn’t know the rapist, then don’t call the police. Even if she calls the police they won’t be able to find him, so what’s the point? It happened so long ago already.
Call the police. It’s better to be honest than to live a lie for the rest of your life. It is also a test for her man.
Secretly hire a contract killer, ask for a professional, don’t leave any traces, don’t have an aftermath, finish the job neatly, happiness for life!
Prepare to break off your engagement~~! Call the police, if the guy doesn’t understand then don’t get married~! This involves your life, think over it carefully.
Simple. If there weren’t any threats from the guy then forget it. If he didn’t threaten you it’s no use calling the police.
Get married, get pregnant and then call the police.
You were forced to make a mistake once, don’t make another mistake. Call the police, be honest.
Looking forward to seeing these pictures on the net…
The original topic was later updated with the following:
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. My friend has chosen to forget and let go. She is determined to walk out of the darkness of this incident. I admire her strength and courage.
At the same time, I would like for everyone to take the high road and not discuss this incident further.
Images: These images were found on Google.cn and are not directly related to the original post.
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WTF??? There is something seriously wrong with Chinese society and the Chinese police force for that matter when 1 out of 5 people recommend secret society hit-men over the police in resolving this matter. I don’t think she made the right choice, I’m in the U.S. where rape is taken rather seriously, if she lets that f*$ker get away, then he is free to commit more rapes in the future. If her father in law is tied to the police force, then all the better in capturing the rapist…
@SniperWZ
I understand your reasoning, however, I don’t think you’re being very compassionate to the state of mind or life of a rape victim – especially one in China where there is a significant cultural divide regarding family, honor, and shame. I’ll leave it at that. It’s an unfortunate situation, and not one so easy as “just tell them!” to deal with.
Poor girl.
上帝保佑她！
But if I were her, I would not call the police…I dont want my bf or husband know the truth.
(I am a woman)
Is it just me or is there something seriously wrong with the comments above? Why didn’t 90% ask anything about the wellbeing of the girl? Some of them even had the nerve to point out it’s her own fault! I have always known that there is a strong sexist/chauvinist streak in China, but this still takes the cake.
If I were her, I’d go to the fiance tell him the story. And then probably hire a hit man.
“Hire a hit man” is so ridiculous, it screams “I spend too much time watching movies and reading the internet and would likely just cry myself to sleep were I in those shoes.”
Given how wonderful some people are, the fiance’s family would probably take a hit out on the person who posted this to hush it all up.
@rick in china…..
its not out of the question. Human life obviously isn’t worth that much in China.
I don’t believe it’d be that hard to hire one, if you had the financial means to do so.
besides they don’t have to be professional hit man, lots of desperate people out there that are willing to do just about anything to make a buck.
@Will
Rather than repeat my post, I’ll just point to it. (points)
@will
Great – what a way to go, encourage people to take the law into their own hands, and make the already weak legal system even weaker, when it should be stronger to override the idiocies ingrained within the culture.
I, sir, applaud your perspicacity. You, sir, are a buffoon.
Derrick…..Christmas turkey’s are not quite so full of shit as you. Using my keen perspicacity, I tend to agree with Will. Some governments will never change. China, being the most obvious culprit, most certainly will never change. Perhaps it IS time to “take out” some key individuals that stand in the way of progress and changing times. Perhaps it is time for the oppressed to “take the law into their own hands” as you so eloquently put it and make a change for the better. I wouldn’t expect you liberals to understand, but I’m certain the pissed off oppressed of China certainly do. Rise up, oppressed people of China and take up the mantle of a united super-power. You know you don’t have to live under tyranny if all 1 billion+ of you stand as one. You all know how full of shit your government is, do something about it. Stop being sheep and grow a pair.
If she knows him, call the po-po… if not, he probably wouldn’t be found, so it might be in her best interest to forget it.
And if she was really worried about it, she could just do what the rest of China does. Hire a bunch of migrant workers to beat him near death.
Bryan,
Many thanks for your response.
Sorry to bug you though, but please remind a liberal like me just how well showing them you have balls worked in Iraq and Afghanistan. I’m sure the Israelis and Pakistanis will also attest to the benefits of having a pair.
Suddam Hussein has been taken out. Didn’t seem to do much, now did it?
Besides, it’s usually those who are most violent in their suggestions that actually can’t grow the testicles required to do the dirty work themselves. If I offered you a grand, could you kill someone? If you can, then you probably deserve to be taken out.
Oh, by the way, I may be full of shit but at least I know something about China, and I can assure you that significantly less than 1 billion people feel oppressed. Sad, but true.
You, sir, like will, are also a buffoon, and an epitome of the disliked American.
If I offered you a grand, could you kill someone? If you can, then you probably deserve to be taken out.
Sorry, that wasn’t so clear. I had intended to suggest that if you think murder is a good way of doing things, then you probably should have your head read.
Besides, what sort of logic enabled you to link together oppression with a rapist? Killing a rapist will not bring down the CCP. (…and yes, it’s called sarcasm.)
I personally would prefer to see the rapist castrated and forced to eat his own balls. Much better deterrent to getting shot.
And if she was really worried about it, she could just do what the rest of China does. Hire a bunch of migrant workers to beat him near death.
Kieran…and how exactly would that resolve the problem? She’d still be seen as tainted goods, and she’s the victim here! I think the bigger problem is with the society, that the rapist is considered only worthy of being murdered but the victim would be treated with contempt for the rest of her life.
WTF?!!!
If her fiance left her, ’cause she was raped, she shouldn’t engage with him in first place. Husband must be supportive. Also, rappers are rape in series. If she don’t call police and rapper stay free, he will rape again.
If my daughter in law got raped, I will be ashamed! Being police chief and let her to be raped!
Also, rapers are often someone who is familiar to victim, so they rape victim again and again.
It is hard for me to tell, but that girl deserved to be raped.
BTW, are we sure that story is true?
It is hard for me to tell, but that girl deserved to be raped.
…and on what basis do you draw that startling conclusion?
…and why would you feel shame if she’s raped? I know that she would be upset at the ordeal…oh, but you won’t actually care about the wellbeing of the victim. That’s just not done, now is it?
What is the whole story about this incident? Why was she alone with this guy?
What is the whole story about this incident? Why was she alone with this guy?
Brilliant question. You do realise that most rapes occur between adults that know each other well? Oh, but don’t blame the guy for committing a crime and humiliating a woman. Blame the girl for being *gasp* alone with a man in this day or age (when nothing in the above story demonstrated this).
Damned dark age peasants. Should either lock their daughters up or be men enough to chaperon her everywhere. Or invest in chastity belts.
@Derrick
Her father-in-low is friend with police officers of nearby station. If I had that kind of friends, I would try to protect my future daughter-in-low, or, after this crime, to find who committed it.
It is hard for me to tell, but that girl deserved to be raped
All studies about rape claims that biggest problem is silence of victims. When criminal for first time feel power to force woman on sex, he will use the force any time when he want to have sex. He become more violently and fall in spiral of violence.
If girl doesn’t call police, criminal will rape again. Maybe her. But other girls for sure. She protects THE criminal.
If she feel ashamed for being raped, or her future family, or her surrounding feels ashamed, something is wrong there
Rape… yeah right. Most likely it’s a ‘last wild hen party before I settle down’, then things get out of control (drunk?) and she banged a guy at the party. However she knows someone knew about it… so to protect her virginal bride-to-be image, she claims to have been raped, never mind it’s purely consensual when she was riding him like a pony.
Many false rape accusations made by women follow the same line of thought. Further investigations by the police etc will expose her lies, but nevertheless she will go scot-free or at most receive a wrist slap because she possess a vagina – the pussy pass.
Oh yeah, no man should get married in this day and age. Listen to Tom Leykis. Read the essay. Have your fun with women while taking care not to make them pregnant.
Especially you Chinese folks, don’t get suckered into settling down, or continuing the family line, or producing a grandson for your parents. Don’t let them shame you or pressure you when you decide to stay single.
Tom Leykis radio:
http://www.971freefm.com/pages/4096.php
Don’t marry essay:
http://www.dont-marry.com/
@krdr
Thanks for reply, apologies for length.
1) Ok, so her future father in law knows cops. But the whole problem with her is that she’s not sure she wants her f-i-l to know, because there is every chance he’d be enough of a dickhead to say no to spoiled goods. Knowing the psyche, I’d imagine that anyone who’s big enough to know the policemen as friends would want ’something better’ for his son.
2)
If girl doesn’t call police, criminal will rape again. Maybe her. But other girls for sure. She protects THE criminal.
I agree completely with your sentiment that the rapist will strike again if left alone.
BUT – think about it – is it really her protecting the criminal? Do you think that if she felt that she won’t be held in contempt by her father in law or husband, she wouldn’t have gone to the police already? She may have causal responsibility if she doesn’t report the crime and he strikes again. But Chinese society as a whole, for allowing these views, can be held MORALLY responsible. Social pressure is silencing her, allowing the perpetrator to walk free.
3) Rape is about power. Your rhetoric about ‘protecting’ women is also about power, because it assumes that a. women are not powerful enough to defend themselves, and implies (although I hope not) b. that women should not have to take responsibility for their own safety, because men can do it.
Can you see that male power over women is also being exerted here, and that if people agree with your point of view and start ‘protecting’ their women we are really subtly reinforcing the mindset that men ultimately are responsible for the fate of women? It’s precisely this concept of superiority that leads to things like rape.
@Derick
For points 1) and two 2) Yes, it is cultural thing, and silence should be brake. In Serbia, raped women made an NGO to support each other and change a perception of raped persons in our culture.
3) So, you wouldn’t protect your daughter in law?
Two r’s in Derrick, dammit!
:P
Sorry, happens all the time.
That’s the thing – would an NGO like that thrive in China? Or even function? I have little hope.
3) It’s not about would or wouldn’t that I’m complaining about. It’s more about the potential ramifications. That said, if something like this remotely looks like happening to one of my female relatives/girlfriends/spouse/whatever, I will probably attack the perpetrator with a broken beer bottle. The issue here is that not everyone has a father in law in close contact with the law.
Yes, DerRick, and my name is Dragan, but everyone says Dragon.
:P
3) I think you got all my points with that beer bottle…
Family must to support each other. If I cannot share secrets with my wife, something is wrong. Marriage should be about trust.
DragAn,
Good to hear back. It’s odd, isn’t it – regardless of how we feel about the law, at the end we’d still not trust it. That said, by using a beer bottle I am only able to defend her that particular time. It would be better in the long run if she is able to defend herself – you can’t protect her everytime. You’d definitely don’t want her to be stigmatised after being attacked, either.
But don’t you think the whole problem is that she doesn’t feel supported by her family?
@Derrick
But don’t you think the whole problem is that she doesn’t feel supported by her family?
Yes. Her’s old and new family. It is sad that people talk lot about traditional and family values, but traditional family is often sick place to be, with lot of rules. Not just in China, but everywhere. Non supportive or all-demanding family is unhealthy for children.
PS:
I have problem writing your name ‘cose of Derek Warwick, one of best drivers ever
Dragan,
My thoughts exactly. If the ideal family worked well she wouldn’t be in trouble in the first place.
PS:
Derek is fine. I think the spelling mistake bothered me more :p
Derek Warwick – had to wikipedia him, as he was before my time. Genius but flawed. I like the sound of that.
@Derrick
Respectively, isn’t genius a flaw in of itself? Most members of mensa aren’t employed..or at least not as gainfully as they should be had genius been a jumping board to executive roles in society :)
Derrick chill. I just wanted to know the story. I mean anyone can just post a story a say “My friend was raped! What should she do?” I just wanted more details. Believe it or not women can be just as stupid as men.
Getting advice for a friend about a serious incident online from strangers seems a bit weird itself.
The weirdest thing is to type sms on Chinese instead to call. That’s why I think this story is not true 100%
@Rick
The first time I read your reply I was completely lost. Then I realised you were talking about the race car driver.
Anyway, I can see where you’re coming from – but I confess that I don’t see it in quite the Greek tragedy way. From what I’ve read, Warwick made some dodgy decisions with his career – so his genius wasn’t directly responsible for his downfall. Besides, surely there is a better way of measuring worth than through % conversion into executive roles? I’d consider genius wasted if they ended up in a suit, actually :p
As well, it’s not like all geniuses are unemployable – take Wolfram – invented Mathematica and probably one of the heaviest punchers in the industry.
@dave
I’m chilled, I promise. I would have thought the rather juvenile ending may have given it away.
@Dragan
I agree with what you’re saying – but still, the reaction on the boards are pretty tasteless.
The raping discussion reflects a deep part of Chinese value system: losing face vs. justice. I recommend you make the connection between it and the “SanLu stone gate” and think the similarity
Sanlu: the girl who were raped
Milk dealer: criminal
Customers and probably other dairy companies: potential victim
Marriage: Olympics
Father-in-law: Hebei government
SanLu was informed that milk was tainted(raped) months ago. Because SanLu worried that his father-in-law(HB gov) and herself may lose face in the marriage(O game) so she was trying to cover it up. The result? More victims(babies and brands) are fucked and our future generation is fucked.
Other political/commercial scandal in China usually take similar track. You can call it “local protectionism” but it’s rather the dark side of “fear-to-lose-face” culture.
Please call the police.
Chinese are pussies. Call the cops. Don’t wait for the wedding, do it now!
In lieu of her family situation, I would say that she should disclose this to her fiance. If they love each other, they should be able to share this burden. Ultimately, it is her decision whether or not to report it to the police and whether or not her husband is supportive of her, she should go to the police. Regardless of what circumstances this happened under, there is a violent man out on the streets and at least one known victim.
She is not only a victim of rape but a potential victim of extortion. If she comes out about it now, she will at least protect herself from further trouble from the criminal later.
What really disturbs me is that there is potentially a lot more to this than is posted – most women are raped by people they know. What if this man were a friend of her fiance’s or her fiance’s family? What if it was a close friend of her family’s? What if it was an acquaintance w/ a high standing in the community? Just by some of the asshole responses, you can tell she may be accused of slander.
USTCer
You seem to have oversimplified the situation at hand in relation to the two seperate incidences (SanLu milk powder and the violation of this girl).
Milk Powder- I find it debatable that they (SanLu) are merely some victim trying to maintain the face of the Chinese goverment, but even if I was to buy that story, the physical victims of the tainted milk was babies and misguided parents. Apart from face lost by themselves(which would be well justified, btw) as well as the government, SanLu had everything to gain and nothing to lose by maintaining regular production of their standard formula. On shaky grounds, that could stand as a ‘face vs justice’ scenario.
Rape – Here, a woman is beaten, physically and mentally violated. She is obviously the victim. Yes, to report the crime would be to lose face and to not report will result in to forsake justice (unless you take the vigilante approach). However, the issue is much more complicated than that. If she was to report the crime, not only will she lose face and must deal with some construct of shame imposed upon her by her society, but she must also deal with the very real negative consequence of doing so. If she was to report the crime to the police, the ‘justice’ that will be obtained will not be comparable to the further suffering she must go through.
The various options has its merits and its weaknesses, I do agree. However, at the end of the day, we should not look at a situation like this as an opportunity to fix a societal issue. Rather, we must have sympathy towards the victim, and offer solutions aimed at giving peace.
I agree with the author, I repect her decision and admire her courage. I can only imagine that it will not be an easy thing to live past.
Now I hope you understand my viewpoint, I just want to say this. Craig, you are a dick. Instead of slandering the Chinese people, grow a heart. Weep for the cause of those oppressed, and stop taking your freedom for granted.
Ed:
“SanLu had everything to gain and nothing to lose by maintaining regular production of their standard formula”
I disagree with this. They will lose trust from customers as they already had.
It sounds strange to me that we should have sympathy towards victim in rape who doesn’t report to police while we condemn corrupted companies that cover up product quality issues. My point is, even as victim, she is responsible in helping police put criminal in prison or there will be more victims like her.
USTcer,
“The raping discussion reflects a deep part of Chinese value system: losing face vs. justice.”
Is this just “Chinese value system” thinking? I am pretty sure that up until the popularity of feminism in the US and other ‘western’ nations this kind of thinking also existed.
Not sure about US, even I have being living here for a while. I know the same “culture of shame”(耻的文化) also exist as a part of other Confucianism influenced cultures such as Japan. However, the difference is, face losers in Japan commit Seppuku while in China we always try to tell the lost face is others.
@dave, USTCer
Don’t you think this whole thing with shame is part of a greater problem with the way women are fundamentally viewed in society?
From my perspective, only when men feel as though they own or hold some sort of power over women would they feel shame when the women were the victims.
Shame culture was VERY much ingrained as a part of every patriarchal or at least male-dominated culture. It’s not a Chinese phenomenon, but it is certainly more common in China today. That the Chinese have always had a fairly low opinion of women as autonomous, reasonable human beings compounds the problem.
…and I very seriously doubt the Japs do seppuku anymore.
@Craig
Go forth and propagate with yourself.
USTCer
Please refer to my whole statement. I said-
Apart from face lost by themselves(which would be well justified, btw) as well as the government, SanLu had everything to gain and nothing to lose by maintaining regular production of their standard formula.
I think a victim deserves sympathy FIRST. Seeking to convict someone of crime for the purpose of adding that next straw on the camels back is noble, but a decision that must be made soley by the victim, as it is the victim alone who must bare the cost.
@USTCer
It sounds strange to me that we should have sympathy towards victim in rape who doesn’t report to police
I can’t seem to get over this line.
The victim wasn’t the person responsible. She was harmed. What she does afterwards is her business. The whole problem is that she doesn’t feel empowered enough to report the crime.
@Derrick
As one who has read the entire text of A New Kind Of Science, the big fat bible sitting in my book drawer atm, I can say Wolfram is not only not employable, but an arrogant thief. He stole a lot of previous science and tagged it his own. Informatica & Mathematica are fantastic in their fields, however, HE WORKS FOR HIMSELF. Cellular automaton and great software algorithms does not equate to employable, my friend, there is a serious social aspect missing…there’s a reason he ilterally *disappeared* into hiding for what, 15 years?
I know some insanely genius people, but the thing they all share in common – they do not work well with others. The problem with genius is that it does not agree with other people in many cases, including other ‘genius’ individuals.
@Ed
Yes. Sound thinking.
@USTCer
No. Are you high?
@ Rick
:D
I must have touched a sore point. I’m sorry, but your anger – it’s kind of funny.
Genius in itself is not the issue here. Not being able to work with others is the problem. That does not stem from the genius. That stems from a person not being emotionally developed enough to deal with people who may not be as smart. This may be a causal consequence of being a genius but is not a necessary result, and is most certainly not intrinsic to being really intelligent.
…and I have to say, there has to be more to this world than judging people on the basis of their employability (sic?). If it weren’t for truly unsociable people on this planet – such as Beethoven (grumpy bastard), Jackson Pollack (wife beater) and Wagner (Jew-hater) some of the most beautiful things in our lives won’t exist. Just my 2c.
If you hate him that much, though, why do you have his book in the first place? I didn’t know anything about his thievery – so I’m asking this in all earnestness – where and whom did he steal from? Got a link?
Ed’s response to this post has been one of the more insightful, balanced, and respectable comments so far. Some of you guys are really are taking this one incident to champion agendas and that’s unfortunate (however understandable).
I also agree with Ed that USTCer likening rape to the Sanlu milk scandal to be inaccurate at best and inappropriate at worst. I do not want to derail this post into a Sanlu discussion but Sanlu is about as close to a victim insofar as this woman was close to being the rapist. Elements of foresight, reasonable consideration of consequences, and access to recourse are very different between Sanlu and a rape victim.
Now, I understand trying to liken a victim who refuses to help put away a criminal with a company who tries to cover up its mistakes, and I agree any inaction resulting in more people getting hurt is abominable, but like Ed said, the comparison is an oversimplification. For example, the woman cannot know for certain the rapist will rape again whereas Sanlu knew the very product it had on the shelves and was being fed to babies were in the process of mortally damaging them. The rape victim can at least hope it won’t ever happen again, Sanlu knowingly ignored its corporate responsibility to society, watching innocents get harmed, silencing others, and making profits. Yeah, we can say the rape victim in this case may be “profiting” from her silence by securing her marriage/husband from the possibility of losing him due to the “shame” of being raped should it have been revealed, but that’s a bit of a heartless stretch. The world is not so black and white.
Framing this issue as “justice vs. losing face” is also a bit unfair. I won’t doubt that there are cultural differences in how rape is viewed and how the characters of a rape are viewed by society as a whole but tons of rape victims deal with the fear and consequences of reporting rape, not just the Chinese. The emotions are usually very complex in such situations and many victims DO feel shame and are disinclined to report. Some people do not want to admit or let others know that they were taken advantaged of, that they were victimized, or they feel helplessly that somehow they were partly responsible for it. Again, it isn’t so black and white as “rape = report the crime.”
@ Derrick:
From my perspective, only when men feel as though they own or hold some sort of power over women would they feel shame when the women were the victims.
I respect your idealism but I think you’re advancing your agenda at the expense of reality. Some feminists might agree with you here, but I’m also certain some would be righteously pissed off feeling you’re somehow suggesting women should be responsible for safeguarding themselves from rape (as opposed to men safeguarding themselves from raping women).
At the end of the day, the vast overwhelming majority of human society (whether because of persistent socialization or whatever) expects that 1) men have the potential and means to dominate women and 2) men who care about women are partially responsible for protecting those women, preventing other men from hurting them.
This is a strongly held view by BOTH men and women. You are right that this evidences an unequal perception of male-female societal roles but we can’t simply pretend it doesn’t exist simply because we prescribe to new-age concepts of gender equality. Remember, even more new-age than the feminist doctrine of absolute gender equality is a respect for differences between the gender while respecting relative equality in areas where such physiological differences do not matter. Yes, exceptions will always exist, but so will the common differences between the genders in the majority.
In acknowledging this, you may begin to understand just how difficult it is to find the appropriate solution for this one woman’s problem. To broaden her plight into some social agenda risks disrespecting both her and her personal incident. Should she do something that would result in very real disadvantage to her personally to advance your agenda? Should she sacrifice herself for your conception of the greater good? Sure, but that’s pretty communist, right?
As I said, not so simple.
For the record, I do agree that we should work towards fostering a social environment that not only prevents rapists from coming to be, but also adequately supports the victims of rape from being stigmatized. Unfortunately, “rape” itself is a very complex phenomenon and often the only way to avoid being stigmatized is to never let anyone know.
@ Kai
I was wondering when you’d show up – I’ve been trolling for a while and I see that you have a reputation.
No discussion is complete without a conservative male surfacing to pay lip service to my ‘idealism’ and then going on to prove my points. I’m not being unrealistic – I’m being farsighted. Wonder how it is that the strongest advocate for that point of view is always a person who stands to gain most from it?
In the above, I am merely pointing out that in trying to resolve the issue in the ways already prescribed and in holding onto our expectations that men can and should protect women, we are merely sowing the seeds for potential problems. You can’t follow a woman 24/7 – because that is the only plausible situation under which you could possibly protect her from all situations. Eventually, one day, she would be in a situation where she has to fend for herself. Secondly, by protecting someone you are implying that you have possession over them. If you are merely reinforcing being in a state of power over women, and that decreases your respect for them.
Instead of thinking “we need to protect women” we need to think “we need to respect the sanctity of that person”. Person – not a woman, or a man. A human being.
I am not advocating an agenda. I’m merely trying to point out how insanely prejudiced and stupid some of the comments I have read above are. This is to me an intellectual discussion rather than a political debate. I’m not seeking to convert anyone.
Women who agree with your point of view are fools and deserve all the oppression they get. We are all adults and we need to take responsibility for ourselves. How could anyone with an iota of dignity and self respect seek to reinforce a system that treats them as chattel, subtle as it may be?
@ Derrick:
Whoa, I have a reputation? LoL, that’s awesome. I know I’ve come to post a lot here (mainly because I got sick of GVO), but I didn’t think I’d have a reputation where people would actually “wonder” when I’d show up. I’m not sure if I should be flattered or ashamed of myself! Though, I do admit feeling a bit left out after 50-some comments though. ;)
Alright, first things first, let’s get rid of the “conservative vs. liberal” labels. For one thing, they’re increasingly difficult to define these days, and for another, using them on the basis of a single issue is more a logical fallacy than a reasonable description of another person’s ideological stance.
Unrealistic vs. farsighted: If I’m asking you to take into account reality, my point is precisely for you to deal with the immediate considerations and consequences, because, yes, you are being farsighted. Spin it however you want (and I don’t largely disagree with your “vision,” but the point remains that in your fervor to frame the issue as “what could be,” you may be insensitive to “what is.”
Are you going to argue with me on this or can you acknowledge the point without trying to redefine the discussion back to that far-sighted “could be?”
Wonder how it is that the strongest advocate for that point of view is always a person who stands to gain most from it?
You’re going to have to elaborate on that because it sounds like an insinuation.
In the above, I am merely…
Yes, and in the above, I acknowledge and paid my respects with my agreement to your ideals and hopes for a better, more supportive, more empowering society that reduces or eliminates the stigmatization of rape victims.
I’m not sure if you actually understand the fundamental points I’ve tried to make or if you’re projecting onto me what YOU think I am saying. I’ll even say I may not have done a good job of communicating but I do want to make sure we both check ourselves here.
I like your portrayal of “protecting” something as implicitly “possessing” something. My response to that is: “not so simple, not so black and white.” Are you going to argue with me on this philosophical matter?
Would your views change if another woman intervened here and fought off this victim’s aggressor? Would you assail that woman for “possessing” the victim merely because she believed she should and then chose to intervene to protect the victim?
I feel you’re so lost in the dynamics of male-female dichotomy and gender-politics that you’re twisting unavoidable realities. Why must protecting someone necessarily imply possession? That’s a very stark, extremist line to be drawing. Why can’t someone protect another simply because of very human virtues like EMPATHY, you know, that “gee, I wouldn’t want that to happen to me without someone coming to save my ass so I’m going to go do something about it” feeling?
If a dog ran up and bit the the rapist’s nuts off, would you then argue that the dog was exercising and perpetuating a dog’s dominance over humans? Do you see how close your characterization of this is to being outright blind to the complexity of it all? I do believe this is not what you intend but you DO sound dangerously close to advocating that we should leave everyone to their own devices and that any intervention implies not just dominance over another but now disrespect to their autonomy.
Come on, man…
No one here disagrees with “we need to respect the sanctity of that person.” If you kept your comments to that level, no one would take issue with you, least of all me. But you’ve gone further than that and that is what I’ve responded to. Please don’t try to shift and malign my comments into some sort of attack against a broad unassailable maxim like “we need to respect people.”
I like intellectual discussions and a good political debate is one too, though to be honest, I don’t think these comments were a political debate in the first place. Agendas are not necessarily political though, but when I say you sound like you’re advancing an agenda, that is indeed how I’ve interpreted you. No, correction: it is what I’m afraid you’re heading towards.
That said, I know you’re not intentionally shifting this discussion from “what should this woman do” out of intentional insensitivity, but rather because this has prompted all of us to consider the larger issues at hand. That’s fine and I think that’s how good intellectual discussions often begin. I do take issue with some of what you’ve gone out on a limb to say, and so far you’ve only denounced me for what you’ve projected onto me, instead of actually rebutting or reasonably challenging any points I’ve made.
Case in point:
Women who agree with your point of view are fools and deserve all the oppression they get.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? What exactly is “my” point of view, Derrick? Brownie points for using the word “chattel,” Derrick, but insofar as what you’ve just said in that last paragraph is applicable to the translated story above, I question your humanity. You haven’t offered her a solution to her problem, you’re trying to prescribe a paradigm shift to what you perceive as a greater societal problem. That’s fine, but even that paradigm shift of your’s is woefully imperfect precisely because of how oversimplified and, again, idealistic it is.
We are limited, imperfect, and ultimately unequal creatures, Derrick, who necessarily must delicately coexist in an ever-changing society that affects us all. You understand half of that, which leads you to your broad idealistic prescriptions of “what should be.” The half you’re missing is that we can never ever (so long as we’re not omniscient and omnipotent) possibly divorce our responsibilities TO EACH OTHER. The very premise of coexistence with concepts of relationships, family, and even “society” is an inherent acknowledgment and acceptance of our responsibilities to each other.
Being “responsible for ourselves” is a massive gradient of gray defined by what we can REASONABLY be responsible for. I seriously doubt you’re going to accuse that woman of being responsible for being raped, because you faulting anyone for feeling bad that someone (even a man) was not able to help a fellow person by stopping or preventing the rape from happening would not only be unrealistic but also patently inhuman.
If your female friend, future-wife, daughter, etc. was raped, are you going to sit there and think “we are all adults and we need to take responsibility for ourselves” or are you going to think “MOTHERFUCKER, HE DID WHAT TO HER?!?” and wish you could’ve stopped it?
You need to be clear about what you’re raging against and I think you’re blurring the lines, saying things that are too broad.
No one here is reinforcing a system of subjugating women. You’re merely accusing any male desire to prevent/stop rape as a desire to do such. I know you think the former it is an inseparable byproduct of the latter, but is it really inseparable? You make it sound that way, as if any desire automatically means a desire to subjugate. Why can’t it just be empathy? Why can’t men feel responsible for protecting those who are weaker in vulnerable situations just as a woman comforts a man in his moments of failure and despair? Why can’t we, as humans capable of empathy, want to protect those who were or are incapable of protecting them? Are we unable to see when we are faced with a helpless situation and yearn for the assistance of others?
There is a far better argument here in criticizing the stigmatization of rape victims in Chinese society leading to victims fearing that they’ll be discarded and disrespected because of something they had little control over, thus further compounding their losses and forcing them to make tough decisions and sacrifices. However, this is also prevalent in non-Chinese societies as well.
I do not agree with many of the sentiments evident in both the original translated Chinese netizen comments or some of the comments made here on chinaSMACK, but I also feel your continued response to this matter as “anyone who dares think men should be involved is explicitly or subtly reinforcing a system that treats women as possessions” is misguided.
If you think I’ve misinterpreted you, I welcome your clarifications, preferably without you trying to label me as a some sort of “conservative male” with the “point of view” who “stands to gain the most” from the continuation of some systematic subjugation of women. If you’re going to do the latter, please make sure you make a damn good argument with some actual evidence.
I am sorry. You win.
I cbf reading all that.
Where’s Rick in China? Maybe he can step up to the plate.
…and yes, it’s a reputation you have :p
Aw, shit, I did it again and wrote too much:
Cliff’s Notes:
1. Kai not happy with Derrick implying/insinuating he is a “conservative male” who “stands to gain the most” from a “point of view” that “reinforces a system” that treats women as “possessions to be protected.”
2. Kai feels Derrick is wrongly attacking and oversimplifying anyone who feels males could’ve done something about the rape as “reinforcing a system that treats women as chattel.” Kai suggests that such feelings are reasonable, human feelings of empathy.
3. Kai feels it is natural and “good” that people in society feel responsible for each other and would like to protect each other. Kai feels the opposite would be most frightening. Kai wants to believe Derrick is not actually arguing against the former, but feels a lot of what he has said sounds awfully like he is.
Ok, that’s a bit freaky. Notes in 2 minutes?
I’m impressed.
1) Isn’t insinuation the point of these sites? I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I had actually just meant to point out what you are saying could be seen in a different way.
2) Nope – no attacking there – I am saying that there is a potential slippery slide there.
3) Empathy is one thing. But let me ask you this – would you expect a girl to protect you? Chances are, you’d say there is either no need as guys don’t get attacked as often, or girls aren’t as capable. In other words, the line between empathy and power is blurred and I think people err on the wrong side.
Anyway, good of you to summarise. Thankyou.
Yeah, I’m prolific. My curse.
1. Uh, insinuation may be part of political debate but I thought we both liked intellectual discussions. In the latter, we should avoid insinuations and stick to sound arguments with veritable premises…which is what I asked you to do if you’re going to accuse me of what you did.
2. I understand. In turn, I’ve said there’s a potentially slippery slope in what you’ve prescribed, and many of your comments have thus far slid down that slope.
3. If I’m getting my ass kicked, much less raped (!!!), you can be damn sure I expect a girl to come help me (and my ass)! Yes, everyone has pride (and pride also afflicts many women rape victims who do not speak out), but that response was the first thing I thought of. It was not “no need as guys don’t get attacked as often” (if anything, men get into physical conflicts more than women, and die more often, in part explaining the higher birth rates of men to replace higher male mortality) or “girls aren’t as capable.” Maybe you didn’t phrase your question in a way that would’ve resulted in the reaction you wanted to illicit from me, but do take my word for it.
To address the point you were trying to make, I still think you’re trying too hard to paint any empathy as a subconscious exertion of dominance/control/power. That’s where you’re venturing into idealism and venturing out of reality, which was my first point against you.
If you can, I do encourage you to read what I originally wrote as my position (like any good position) are in the details and nuances. There’s a bit of redundancy in my writing, but I’m confident in what I say precisely because my nuances account for most common knee-jerk rebuttals. It’d be nice if we could establish what we agree upon rather than go in circles arguing about what you’re projecting onto me.
Hmm, I think we are both projecting onto each other. But, I promise you that I’ll read what you have written properly. Not today though.
<i?Maybe you didn’t phrase your question in a way that would’ve resulted in the reaction you wanted to illicit from me, but do take my word for it.
Just oversimplifying because I am getting lazy, is all.
I am sure if you want we can continue this discussion on Facebook or email :p
@Ed
Ok. I admit the linking to Sanlu’s scandal was not fully appropriate.
@derrick
“That the Chinese have always had a fairly low opinion of women as autonomous, reasonable human beings compounds the problem.”
Do you exaggerate the problem? At least we don’t have such opinion in sports – Chinese women players outranked men in many games. In China, women don’t need to change their last names after marriage.
@Derrick
While it’s off topic from the above few posts.. I don’t hate Wolfram, in fact I respect him a great deal. I enjoyed reading ANKOS and to me, at the time, it was definitely enlightening. CEO was a physics prof @ courant and during a discussion (in which I was acting like a fanboy I’m sure) opened my eyes to a lot of Wolfram’s thievery, I (cbf :D) will let you do the research if it’s of any interest…which I doubt it really is.
In mentioning genius being a flaw in of itself was not to say directly that genius _is_ a flaw, but, indirectly, often carries with it a burden of anti-socialism which..well, regardless of what you ‘create’, can lead to social suicide and unhappiness. It’s not just employability, and that was just a representation of one of the negative facets which often go along with the territory.
@ Derrick:
I quoted your words as much as possible to avoid projecting on to you. As I already said, I’m pretty confident you’re not actually so extreme, even if your words have come across that way. Moreover, you’ve acknowledged that you’ve oversimplified and, to me, that balances out the comments you made that I took issue with.
I know what you’re getting at, I simply thought you were getting really black and white, and thus overstepped the lines of what is reasonable, rational, realistic, and sensitive. At the end of the day, this girl was raped and is being forced by the realities of society to make tough decisions between right and wrong, good and bad, advantageous and disadvantageous. That sucks. It is important to acknowledge that.
@ USTCer:
Opting to not change your last name after marriage is not limited to China. All you need to do is look to Hong Kong and Taiwan to know that “not changing your last name” is not necessarily a ubiquitous Chinese custom much less invention. There’s no need to make such silly assertions here. More importantly, I’m not sure how that and the fact that female Chinese athletes performed better than their male counterparts actually addresses what Derrick said. Chinese society (along with the vast majority of human civilization) has traditionally valued the male over the female. Is there a need to argue this or would our time be better spent changing it?
@Kai
I was not saying that female was valued fairly like male in this society. I was not saying no change needs to be made to better it neither. However, the fact that in old times Chinese women had to change their family names after marriage but no need now is a symbol of China’s change. At least, we don’t have fundamental limitation like the “women were man’s ribs” BS in bibles.
@ USTCer:
You’re again trying to throw in some sort of accusation against “the West.” Yes, “the West” has a Biblical story where woman came from the rib of man. In “China” we had Confucius telling women that they were obligated to obey their husbands just as a son obeys father, student obeys teacher, and the people their emperor. It was the hierarchical order of things, and ultimately for the social stability of the country, right? Giving your man shit was paramount to inciting chaos! Yikes.
So, please, come on, misogyny has been around for time immemorial, probably since the day men noticed they’re usually physically stronger than women. Isn’t it a bit petty always trying find an excuse to make “the West” sound worse than China? Doing so isn’t going to prove the Chinese are better or the Westerners are worse. It only proves how utterly petty you can be.
Gee, “don’t be so CNN,” right?
They should enlist the help of triads to take care of the matter…but that’s only an option available to the rich and powerful
Firstly it doesn’t matter if she is a “good girl” or not. If there is no consent, it is rape.
Why would it jeopardize her marriage? I don’t get it. If she was raped, she is a victim.
@ EJ:
It would jeopardize her marriage because of the notion of “spoiled goods.” It sucks, but its a real phenomenon, not just in China, but around the world. Not many people are comfortable with their future wives or daughters-in-law having been raped. She is the victim indeed, and few question that, but the stigmitization of rape victims is a complex thing.
Umm..She should report the rape. It doesn’t matter if it occurred months ago or yesterday, she should report it. This Chinese thing about not bringing embarrassment on your future family. What a load of crap. Even if the police doesn’t catch this guy, at least his profile will be known to law enforcement. It might prevent future crimes by this sadistic man. For those of you who says she should keep this private, think about having a daughter. Would you want your daughter to keep this thing private. Shit like this doesn’t go away. It will effect her emotionally for the rest of her life.
By the way, she’s marrying the guy, and not the parents. If her future husband can’t handle this news, then he’s not good enough for her.
I am an American, married to a Chinese woman, living in China. I think the most important thing is that the woman should tell her husband, because otherwise dark secrets will be the norm of this relationship. Better he should reject her and she is alone, then live a marraige founded upon a lie.
I simply do not trust police in any country, especially China. They would not solve the problem. However, if she didn’t go to them, she would have a tough time explaining why she didn’t go to the police if the pictures come out
The pictures are crucial. Nothing could be worse than the secret coming out through the pictures. If the husband were a man, and were a clever one at that, he would find a rational way to get the pictures back, even if it meant paying for them. Violence could be employed to reach that end, but not for violence. To that effect, maybe the mafia-related responses have a good point. You know what? Maybe hiring those secret detective agencies to track down the perp might work, that’s slightly less gangsta.
That first picture… it’s definitely the band milk@coffee, right?
This whole idea of “shame” in the traditional sense is quite outdated. Not that it was valid before, but nothing should hold innocent people back from attaining justice. We need to change the mentality of people so that they value women’s rights over face.
Hi Chan,
Yes, it is milk@coffee. I wrote it as the alt description.
Seems like lots of dumb guys answering this post. I’d like to know about rape reporting stats in china – how often does it go unreported in china and why, or am I dreaming that there’s even a figure out there for this? Have any social science people done a study?
And I’m interested in the whole Chinese marriage thing to. Like some people have said stuff like …if the husband really loves her, or if they really love eachother, then he should support her and their love will overcome all etc.
But it seems that in some parts of china (and the rest of the world too!) marriage is not always an act of love where two people come together because they mutually love and adore eachother. Sometimes it can be a financial security thing, or a way to step up in the world. So, in this case, I don’t think love is relevant.
She needs to call the police and come clean with her husband. She will also need alot of medical help as God knows whether that guy has a disease or not. If she doesnt do anything, this will start eating her from the inside out. Who can gurantee that man would not blackmail her in the future?
Maybe this is cultural difference… but if she can’t look to her fiance/husband to help her in this desperate time of emotional support/need, who can she trust? Rape happens because we live in a messed up world. We need the unconditional love from our friends and family to get us through difficult times. If she can’t look to her future husband for help, then she’s entering a very oppressive, unfortunate marriage.
I would like to apologize right now for the length of this post. I realize many of you do not have time and/or inclination to read the entire thing.
Please trust that this is actually me being brief, but my first priority is to avoid oversimplified generalizations and ultimately that denies me brevity.
@Bryan: There is no ‘posse comitus act’ protecting Chinese citizens… when they “rise up” they get squashed by PLA tanks.
Add onto that the heavy censorship which prevents nearly all attempts at organization, and you can begin to understand how 1.3 billion people can be made so docile.
And that’s not even to mention the years of what was effectively brainwashing at the hands of the CCP and the mental health issues their legacy leaves behind.
Every year since 1990 there has been a rally in Hong Kong on June 4th, yet it has been mentioned in mainland China only once, in 2007, when it was described as a memorial for the earthquake victims. The massacre seems to have been completely excised from Chinese memory and I bet many mainlanders would be shocked to learn the truth.
@Kai: I may not always agree with your positions or your assumptions, but I do respect and admire the thoughtful and concise manner with which you present yourself.
@comments about genius: I have an IQ of around 140. (Anywhere from 137 to 151 depending on my level of intoxication at the time of the test.) I do not say this to boast, simply to qualify the following:
I do not have many people in my life that I would consider friends. This is not because I can’t get along with others, it is simply because the things that occupy my mind are boring or bothersome to so many people and I do not go out of my way to force myself upon them.
As for employability, I also struggle with it. They say “it is a fine line between genius and insanity” and this is largely true. Because I refuse to accept the things which I can not change I am consumed with (for example) trying to figure out how to stop George Bush from fucking over the entire free world, so much so that I just can’t care whether or not the fucking fries are done.
To put it more succinctly, I am very aware of exactly how terrible life on this planet can be, and even though I am powerless to change the world I remain overwhelmed by such considerations.
@protection of women: I think those two have been arguing the opposite sides of the same coin. The idea that a particular man is responsible for the protection of a particular woman is very different from coming across a stranger in danger and feeling obliged to help.
That is the difference between being a samaritan and a husband/brother/uncle/whathaveyou. One aspect is based on a (somewhat misogynist) concept of… well, not quite ownership but at least stewardship. (”That is MY woman and none shall defile her.”)
The other is based on either empathetic concerns for all people and/or selfish rationalizations. (”I must help, because simply by my proximity I am made responsible.” or “I must help because I would want someone to help me.”)
@LZ It is very difficult to ascertain the true circumstances of this incident. Not enough information is provided. Many unscrupulous women use claims of rape to justify infidelity and in this case I feel that it is possible that what began as consensual sex was only later called rape to protect the woman against the possibility of pictures (dated just a few weeks before the wedding) turning up.
However, what is clear, is that saving “face” is far more important, as always, than doing what’s right. The woman, the future husband, the father-in-law, hell the entire society as a whole would rather shun or blame the rape victims and ignore the problem instead of admitting that such things can happen to anyone, any time, in “harmonious” China.
As for the police… what exactly could they do now? It has been so long that the likelihood of semen and/or injuries being evident is almost nil. That makes this another case of “he said/she said” which would almost certainly result in more damage to the woman’s reputation than the man’s.
It’s not fair, and it’s not okay. And it doesn’t matter how many years it took Western countries to improve treatment of rape victims, this is something that all Chinese, hell all people, should care about.
Whoa, someone said I was “concise.”
*mashes Print Screen button*
@Kai:
Concise: free from all superfluous detail While your posts are often long, you rarely belabor your point. You move through the issues in a very logical way, raising relevant details for your readers’ attention and moving on.
I especially enjoy the way you remain humble and gracious, pointing out similarities as often as differences. Most people can’t pull it off.
(What is the state of philosophy in China today? You seem unconcerned with class warfare, so I couldn’t call it diamat. I’d guess the Socratic Elenctic style, with a good bit of Confucian rhetoric for flavor. Or a very good business communications class. :p So which is it?)
@ jayman:
Holy shit, any more ego-stroking and my head is going to explode!
Either we operate on a similar wavelength or you’re pulling my chain because I’m pretty certain my posts (especially those I don’t proof-read) are potpourri mixtures of stream-of-consciousness and eclectic asides. While I personally think everything I write is me subconsciously establishing nuance to my position (you know, to preempt those who would dare find fault with my arguments), others feel I’m belaboring my point, being repetitive, and rambling. I can empathize.
That said, I try to remain humble and gracious but I’m pretty certain quite a few fellow commentators here would disagree given my penchant for trying to rip apart or verbally overwhelm those I find, quite simply, “idiotic” (which is subjective).
Now that I’ve tried to “graciously” accept and appreciate your compliments, I hope you’ll stop complimenting me because I’m one of those people who squirm when being praised.
Also, I can’t pinpoint any specific foundation for my “rhetorical style.” Therefore, I suppose your labels are probably as good as any.
@Kai
Fair enough. Next post I’ll be sure to throw a few insults against you to make you feel more secure.
this post is pure BS. the girl ask for help in deciding a good 80-90% suggests her to call the cops. but rather she does the opposite.
what does that tell you? it tells you that the girl already made her decision even before the post was created… she was just looking to validate her decision.
losing face etc etc. i can understand it all. but this is still deception. its not so different as sleeping with another man before your wedding night the only difference is (if im the guy) i can understand if its an unfortunate event such as this rather than an intentional one.
at least get some counseling, hire a private detective may be, pay the triads to take care of the situation.
Chinese Police in generals are worse compared to their counterparts elsewhere…and probably just as corrupt as their counterparts.
The girl definitely needs counseling. But the high road would tell the future hubby. However, if the girl needs financial assistance (poor family,) I understood her predictment(sp?) especially given the arcane and ludicous one(or two)-child policy currently implemented in China.
I begin to wonder what happened to human decency and common sense in China and this will get worse as China continues to prosper…then again, the chinese approach is life isn’t worth that much in China anyway…
Well, the sad fact is, proof is hard to obtain if there is no witness or forensic evidence.
So involviong the police now is to late, it should be done immediatly to be effective.
The only choices open, is as she has done, and move on.
Alternatively….
If she knows the person that did it, in some way can identify him, The hit man solution looks like an option, and additionally, very cheap in china, I would though suggest a good beating, and a male rape to be effective, Possibly regular intervals. with future indication, so he will always be looking over his shoulder, this is better than death, he can suffer for long time.
I know and understand why she made her decision and why she doesnt want it discussed again.
But I feel she chosen poorly, verginity is very highly valued in china so chances are she was a virgin before the rape. I’m sure her husband figured out on the wedding night that she wasnt a virgin.
She shouldnt worry about her soon to be father inlaw,hes not the one she’s marrying should sit down with her fiancee and tell him what happened get it out in the open.If he loves her he’ll understand it wasnt her fault and be willing to help her through the pain,no matter how much she wants to put it behind her a rape victim never gets over the trama.Her husband needs to know coz it will eat her inside and not having someone to turn to will end up ending the marrige.I realize she’s proberbly marride by now but seriously need to think about telling him.Not telling could make things worse,and whose to say the pics wont show up later?
Somehing needs to be changed in a culture who blames the innocent victim.
But who knows, she could have done it by her own free will. He takes pictures and are afraid that they end up on Internet.
The sad thing with many girls is that you can never trust them. If they report rape, incest etc. it can be anything from purely made up stuff to the real deal.