Law enforcers break the law, hurt and kill people.
October 11, around 10pm at night, six Harbin City railway police beat to death Harbin City Sports Academy student, Lin Songling. At the time, the railway police were in plain clothes had a quarrel with the dead victim Lin, who was waiting for some classmates at entrance to Harbin entertainment center Candy bar/nightclub [Box Club / Club of Box]. Then the six police carried the dead victim Lin to a place 80m away from the bar/nightclub, unclothed the dead victim Lin’s shirt and cruelly beat him to death. They also screamed: “Do you still know people? I will see who you know, there will be no problem even if I beat you to death!” Just like this, the life of a 22-year-old young man who has not yet done anything in life was ended!! Regrettable!!!
Comments on NetEase:
A hooligan with a license!!!
Waiting for your resignation.
“Ding” this up. if this is true, punish the police. If it isn’t, then punish the “lou zhu.”
Resign, hmph, resigning after beating someone to is enough to solve the problem? At least go to jail. Today is the second day, the body is still on the streets, it will be very difficult to easily resolve this without punishing them.
Use the truth to speak, send this to more media!
Again China, sad, sad ah, with this kind of country, how do you want your citizens to live?
Only anger!
In the morning, the traffic police sealed off the street crime scene (Xi da zhi jie), so cars had to make a detour. There were a huge group of people at the crime scene, also saw wreathes, the surrounding intersections all had traffic police. I specially listened to the traffic report thinking there would be details, but the host only simply said, “‘Xi da zhi jie’ has traffic…”
Just like this, a 22-year-old life is gone…
Savage police!!!
I am a Harbin person…Harbin police and Harbin’s black society are all “TMD” the same~~~
Harbin police meeting Harbin black society is like meeting their grandfather~~~
Fuck their mother, crap attitudes and crap society~~~
It is true, I passed by this morning, there were some people around looking, wreaths placed in the middle of the road, the police surrounding and maintaining order. The dead victim’s body was placed at the side of the road, hope the police are punished severely no matter who was right or wrong. Six police beating one university student, until death, they are even more black than black society. This really makes us ordinary common people feel unsafe. Can this kind of police protect the ordinary common people?
This type of police were trained through torturing prisoners, in prison they use their shoes to beat prisoner’s faces. Coming out, they still believe hitting people and insulting people is correct. This is occupational inertia. This happens a lot, it is not strange.
The impression police give me:
Hooligan scum = one part entered prison + one part became police + one part friends of police.
I have never expressed what I think on a discussion forum, but I must say something now!! I do not know why the media does not go report this matter, a case involving human life is the most important!!! 6 beasts tore off a youth’s upper body clothes and beat him to death. Where is the justice? Do us ordinary people still have any place to voice ourselves!!! This matter happened right near my home, absolutely true. I hope everything with a heart will “ding” this up, so the child will not have died for nothing!!!
Everyone who has a heart, look at this innocent student!! 22-years old and beaten to death by 6 police because of a quarrel!!! They say they have connections, us ordinary people already understand. The Communist Party protect them even if they beat someone to death, and even if they are punished, it will be a joke. Everyone await for this outcome! Just those six police safely and with no problems! Even if we ordinary people have our arguments, we cannot express them clearly!
Did you see that? Beaten to death. They will say they were temporary hires, hahaha! So terrible, the country is what you six and your friends say it is, hahaha. If Chairman Mao was alive, he would execute all of your families!!! Kill even nine generations of your kin! All speaking lies, can you sleep peacefully at night?
Absolutely true, this group of police normally are no different from hooligans, a lot of people in the vicinity looking on all said this. What more, it took from 10pm last night until this morning before the Harbin public security bureau sent someone here. I saw a person in the morning filming the scene, wondering why no one has been sent here yet, was it because it has been blocked off? It really makes me feel indignant. A young life so easily ended, regret! Poor parents, losing their son forever in a blink of an eye!
Tonight, riding the #55 bus line and only after passing by the scene of the incident did I know something this big happened. On the bus, I heard a passenger mention the three occupations (teacher, doctor, police) that people most respected 30 years ago are now the most corrupt. Hearing this was rather profound. I am waiting to see if television programs and these two day’s newspapers can have news about this.
Because there are six who beat one to death; there was one who killed six!
Comments on Mop:
I am here to see how long it will take for this topic to be harmonized [deleted by the authorities].
I feel the police did not do the right thing, according to the law. But that university student is from the Sports Academy, not much different from some minor hooligan. I am a Harbin person, those Sports Academy students are not fit to be called university students.
One less 22-year-old punk. Nothing better to do than going to a nightclub to play, getting into a conflict, I bet he is not a good guy. Though, I still dislike Northeasterners, they only know how to have damn fights. Our school’s Northeasterners have nothing better to do than have fights. Brainless.
Other than bullying the common people, what else does China’s police know how to do?
Where is Yang Jia?
Give them Sanlu to drink!
This student also was not a “lamp that saves oil” [someone who does not cause trouble]! He went clubbing, went to cause trouble, the problem is not just the police!
Dog eat dog…who wins and who loses.
A university student who drives a luxury car in the middle of night to a nightclub to seduce “MM” is also no one good.
…weird, where is Harbin’s version of a knife murderer…
It is true. Right now all over Harbin people are discussing this incident.
“They also screamed: “Do you still know people? I will see who you know, there will be no problem even if I beat you to death!’” From these words, everyone can see that it was the young man who was looking for trouble at the time…and who provoked who…
But, both sides have fault. If we are going to blame, blame the Northeasterners for their “die but do not bend” attitudes…the result is death…
Actually, if at the time he was not so insolent, the police would not have beaten him to death…
This matter has already become big. Right now, Harbin students are preparing to skip class and go demonstrate!! Yesterday, I already heard of this! I did not think I would see pictures!~
Calling the people’s hero, “Yang Jia.”
Is this China??? No, it cannot be, I believe these things must have happened in the 20th century!! Only in that time period’s society could something like this happen! We are now already a harmonious society, this is impossible! We are now taking big honest steps towards a Communist society!!!
It does not matter who is right or wrong, looking at that mother crying, I think everyone will be moved.
Serves him right. Who told him to open his mouth and say he knew people? American police all often shoot black people to death. Endure it [and do not open your mouth].
Currently, all six policemen have been detained.
UPDATE: Many new posts on BBS forums and a media from Heilongjiang have reported that the dead student, Lin Songling, started the fight with the police officers over car parking. The six police were drunk but initially tried to avoid a fight. However, Lin attacked the six police and threw bricks at them. They responded after this provocation and Lin was beaten to death. Supposedly Lin’s behavior (not afraid of police) is because his family has some “connections.” Many people now feel that Lin was looking for trouble and found it.
UPDATE: For the Heilongjiang television news report that include the surveillance video showing that Lin Songling, the university student, attacked the police and new Chinee netizen reactiosn to this information, please read: Harbin Student Killed By Six Police Started Fight.
See more posts about police in China:
- Nanjing Traffic Officer Dares To Stop A Military Car
- Chongqing Woman Dragged To Death By Porsche For Car Key
- Tangshan Bus Driver Beaten to Death After Dispute
- Internet Police Fine Man 1900 RMB For Downloading Porn
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Harbin Student Killed By Six Police Started Fight 
Government Official Attacks 11-Year-Old Girl 
Young Schoolgirl Beaten, Thrown To Her Death By Teacher 
Beijing University VP Wants To “Insert” In Female Student 
Guangdong Youth Humiliate & Beat Pretty Pregnant Girl 
I’m sensing I’m not getting the fully story here, can ChinaSmack follow-up on this and translate additional news reports and comments that shed light to this incident?
No doubt this is police brutality, but not sure why a 22 year old would get into a pissing match with 6 people and get beaten to death…
Here is what I gather from reading additional posts on this topic from Sohu (the link provided at the top of this page), not sure if entirely true:
- The 22 year old’s family is wealthy, bought him a Mercedes-Benz(?) before he even graduated. He’s supposedly a good basketball player.
- That night, after a birthday party, he went to a nightclub driving his benz but probably because of lack of parking, he parked right at the entrance of the Railway Police building, taking up the police’s spot.
- Couple of police had a fight with him and he lost, but he brought more people from the club or elsewhere, more police came as well and they fought again
- Lin’s friends ran away after losing the fight, but the police kept beating him, and he died…
More to come after I read more posts…
Thank you, SniperWZ.
The fact remains that the bitch-ass Police beat a young man to DEATH. He is dead and they are alive. Young, wealthy or arrogant…doesn’t = death sentence. I hope they all rot.
Yeah, it does seem like they overreacted…
It would really help to know whether he was really beaten -> did they get in a circle around him and kick him till he died, or was it one unlucky hit? (not defending the police)
was it more like a few hits and than he dropped- semi-accidental,
or did he just keep coming back for more -> I’ve also seen police
drag some scary drunks out of clubs before w/w out shirts on
I did not see apparent bruises around his upper body from the photos shown…but no idea, he might have been hit in the head with a blunt instrument, and left to die, he was still in the streets when people found him, seemed like nobody called for an ambulence, why didn’t his friends come back for him? I guess they weren’t real friends…
@Veer Left: Young, wealthy or arrogant…doesn’t = death sentence.
But go looking for trouble with a bunch of drunk cops then it does not matter if you are young, wealthy, or arrogant. There’s a good chance you’ll end up dead.
The last time I checked it is a crime to assault law enforcers, is it not?
So the situation was that the police were off duty at the time drinking or something and they came out to fight? Only police I have seen at clubs tend to be security related
猫(1615):相信大家都看了新闻夜航了吧，视频已经公布了，这回大家就不要吵了。
打人者可是大学生也！像地痞像暴徒，衣服也是自己脱的，这样的人渣死一万次也不嫌少！视频上看pol.ice开始可没有动手打人，只是挨打，后来pol.ice被打伤才正当防卫。从斗殴到致人死亡时间来看，（死者没有任何外伤）据专业人士分析死者在生前服用过大量viper，又喝了酒，才导致疯狂打人，迅速心率衰竭猝死街头。请大家仔细观看视频（新闻夜航播的案发现场监控录像）在说 。如果法鉴鉴定出死者是内伤致人死亡的：从案发现场监控录像来看这几个pol.ice应当定为，防卫过当处置。如果法鉴鉴定出死者是因饮酒或吸毒再加上剧烈运动所引起的自身脏器损伤导致死亡的，那这个案件属于治安案件，不必追究当事人的刑事责任。
扑(1660):大家回复之前，请先把视频看一下，别在这里跟风。被打死的这个先后三次出手攻击对方头部，两边的人一直都在劝架。换成是你，你还忍吗？监控录像上可以看出来，已经有个人头部受伤了。死了的那个够倒霉的了，遇到基层pol.ice了。那些pol.ice也够倒霉的，碰到这么个2B，死活说不听了，还不经打。这下都折了。
Hmm…basically a case of student hooligan meets countryside police and gets roughed up in an unfortunate way
The above post suggest that the 22 year old was drunk and used drugs and picked the fight with the police, who did not at first respond after repeated provocations. I could not translate exactly but it suggested the drugs and alcohol contributed to his death due to a heart condition? Can someone verify? Also there are no visible wounds on the body of the 22 year old, as I noted earlier…
The post above also refers to a video clip of the incident and news reports, can someone provide links so we can all take a look and make our own judgements?
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDY5ODkyNDg=.html
http://v.ku6.com/special/index_3216483.html
扑(1568):其实看到这里
我们唯一能庆幸的是，这件事没发生在我们自己身上
如果你们看过视频。
就能知道换做谁被那小子那样的暴打，身边的人都不能熟视无睹。
那天晚上我也在酒吧，哈尔滨的。只不过不是一家。
Z国没有袭警罪
这是P/L没有示警的原因
P.L显然是喝过酒之后才去的酒吧。
而很多人都知道酒后驾车是违犯五条禁令的
后果可能导致扒皮
而被害人的行为最多违犯治安管理处罚条例治安拘留。
如果国外 PL提前示警，这件事可能就会避免过去了。
我们的制度的确不够完善啊
wow…is the above true? this must be a truly unfortunate incident
Arrogant young juiced-up punk gets beaten to death by drunk North China cops?
Wow, what a surprise.
I lived in Harbin for a year and have no problem believing this story. Some of the most aggro, violent thugs I’ve ever seen.
“Without any doubt, these 6 policemen are temporary workers in the post office”, the China News will be reported like this soon….
@Veer Left RE: “Death sentence”
Are you implying that if you are fighting outside of a club and talking shit about your ‘connections’ and how hooked up you are like a real thug, you didn’t bring the trouble or incite the trouble on yourself? Of course it doesn’t *equal* death sentence, but as with anything, sometimes things go too far and if you are the one who are so arrogant to think nothing will happen to you and prod that incident on like a cocky little bitch then quite frankly, you take that risk and I have absolutely no compassion or pity for people who take on that risk and end up with the shit end of the stick. I do feel bad for that little pricks family, though, who have likely tried to create an angel and ended up with an ass, who is now dead. What a waste.
@ Lord of the Flies RE: “But go looking for trouble with a bunch of drunk cops then it does not matter if you are young, wealthy, or arrogant. There’s a good chance you’ll end up dead.”
Agreed, not just go looking for trouble with a bunch of police (likely didn’t know they were police), but if you hang outside clubs at night talking shit to groups of people you’ll likely get your ass handed to you and sometimes it gets out of hand, police or not.
A stupid boy with an air head.
trying to talk/explain/ to Chinese police= asking for troubles.
trying to talk/explain to DRUNK Chinese police= asking for death.
A P.E. student? P.E. students have a great potential to become police men, and this hot tempered, air headed, and tall boy could be a good one, but… he just died too early.
hey, where is Yang jia? If Yang jia was there, this story would have a different ending.
Why is it we Chinese can never fight fairly one on one? We can only face combat with the backing of many, and a fair fight in China is at least 3-on-1…
Rick, I see it all the time. Especially in China.
“Who are you!?? You are nobody! I can have you beaten!!”
It all equates to…
“My dad knows more cronies than your dad!”
Yes he was stupid, drunk, etc. This doesn’t equate to it being ok to drag him down the street and kill him.
Everyone that is saying that they were Policemen and that he should know better is missing THE crucial point. They were in PLAIN CLOTHES… he was just arguing with some goons and they just so happened to be ABOVE THE LAW, and he paid with his life.
Police should not have to take flack from trouble makers, but they should be controlled. They are officers of the law, not random mafia henchmen.
@Veer
You’re making MAD MAD speculations. This is an example of why your arguments hold no weight – you go off on rants with little or no foundation and come to conclusions that, given the information we actually have (including most of which being rumor), just doesn’t make sense.
Plus, they aren’t “above the law” – as the article states all of the policemen have been detained.
You think some kids fucking with plain clothes police outside a club in LA would turn up alright? They’d get beaten down put in the back of a truck and dropped off in a neighbourhood that would likely leave them robbed or dead. Shit disturbers get their shit disturbed, next on News at 11.
People fucking with plain clothes police in the USA usually DON’T get beaten down.
They get shot dead.
^ Absolutely. Cops are pretty much cops everywhere. Thugs with a uniform.
This young guy picking a fight with (how many?) plain-clothes cops is just plain stupid. He could be dead right by standing his ground and arguing (as is his right) but instead he just wound up dead.
That’s the trouble with certain people in this country, too proud. This idiot could have just wiped his mouth and walked away to live another day, but his pride got the better of him.
Not saying the cops are guilt free. They should be charged of course.
You need more than a little common sense in this country at all times.
Is it more common in the US or China? I thinks China.
The closed circuit video clearly shows he was picking fights with one guy named Qi, who did not respond after repeated provocations, but then the 22 year old had a brick in his hand and then the real fight got started, the 22 year old then had his shirt off somehow and started running away, which then he was chased by somebody (not sure if it’s Qi), I think he was then beaten to death, out of view of the cctv by then.
I think the 6 railway police should have announced themselves as police and restrained the kid, there were 6 of them, could have easily just held him down until the PSB arrived (who had arresting powers). It seemed like they weren’t sure what to do until it went way out of control and they couldn’t hold back anymore…
It will be interesting to see what happens to the six. Murder requires the action and the intent. Clearly, it was murder, no matter what the boy did. If he has rich parents they will put pressure for justice, either by pay out or punishmment.
Murder usually means the death penalty here.
Now, the media has picked it up, the internet is like wildfire.
But, even my gf believes it was the boy’s fault, he deserved it, after she watched the local propoganda TV news coverage.
I’ll follow this one and find out what happens to them.
How reliable are these sources? The police, the victim and the chinese government are going to have vast differences in what happened there. Which do people on the bbs forums believe more?
The update that stated he started the fight is just an example of info that just activated my bullshit alarm.
@pzhang
Video feeds from CCTV, not just bbs posts. Provoking a police then grabbing a weapon (brick) and continuing to provoke…I would have expected the police to jack him up before he had the brick.
@SniperWZ
Your suggestion on what the police should have done makes sense, however, drinking and outside a club with a snot nosed kid acting like a bad ass…combined with the likely not-so-educated but given-some-power police who are used to at least getting face while in uniform…leads me to understand the conclusion. I would be more shocked if the police had done as you suggested than what they actually did.
Can you translate this video also?
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/16661696-1558687200.html
Don’t make foreigners misunderstand,OK?
Yes, I watched it.
Quite clearly the last shot was of him running away and being pursued, while his friends were engaged in fights away from him.
This is the law as we know it in civilized, developed countries:
Murder. Killing another with intent.
Manslaughter. Killing with reckless disregard with no intent.
Defences: self defence – can use reasonable forece in the defence of oneself or another.
Lack of intent, Kamipeli defence (very rare) lack of intenet due to intoxication.
He was pursued and beaten to death by six people.
This is murder.
Whether he was drunk, drugged, bashed someone with a brick is irrelevant. He was young, drunk proud, like a million other drunk students. This is all irrelevant.
Civilians would be charged.
The police should have known better. In civilised countriues they have an extra duty to act professionally at all times.
This is murder and they should all six receive the death penalty if they were all party to the beating when he was unable to defend himself on the ground.
@Robert Black
Clearly you’re not too well versed in many western legal cases involving a violent drunken attack on one or more people resulting in the death of the original attacker (with a weapon, being a brick).
just months ago, one man killed 6 policemen in Shanghai, now 6 policemen killed one man in Haerbin…..
Rubbish, I was a criminal defence lawyer from 1988 to 1998.
The law is simple. (And not what you see on TV or in movies).
If it was a fight, it would have been fine. Then self-defence may protect them or at least they could raise it. But still, you need to show reasonable force. A brick is hardly a knife or a gun. Anyway more like a rock I think, looked too small to be a brick.
Death is serious. He was fleeing the attackers. Therefore it becomes an assault. When he died it was manslaughter (with no intent,)or murder with intent to kill.
They maybe could push for manslaughter but from what the witnesses heard, that defence must fail. Mentioning beating him to death as they were doing it is pretty good evidence to show intent.
Rick… when it comes to getting in or out of problems in China I may have more experience than most. My conjecture is a educated guess born of experience. I’ve seen the Chinese police behave with unnecessary roughness on the drunk, on children, on wai di ren etc… AND with kid gloves on rich middle aged guys who were behaving like enflamed assholes.
If the POLICE can’t deal with a few skinny, snot nosed punks, they really aren’t much use. Use just enough force necessary to detain, handle, and stop the idiot.
As a normal citizen, if I responded with massive overkill of force to every taunt I got in the street or in a nightclub etc,etc. I’d likely be in jail by now. Police have to have patience…
As for his heart exploding in his chest…unlikely. He was 22 years old…not 72. So even if he was on some drugs, he’s not likely to collapse and die. AND IF HE DID, they should have attended to him…not left him in the street.
Cowardice is 2nd only to murder and both are deserving of severe retribution.
@Robert Black
People “hearing” him say “I’m going to kill you!” in a drunken fight outside a club, then having the guy die as a result of some hits (not a severe physical beating from the images showing no significant bruising or excessive pummeling) in a fight which he started including using a weapon (a brick or stone is a weapon, it doesn’t have to be a knife or a gun), is not going to yield MURDER[X]. Manslaughter *maybe*. MURDER? criminal defense lawyer? Are you serious? There is no claim that the officers involved used any kind of deadly weapon (or any weapon for that matter) in retaliation, and the physical evidence of a severe and over the top beating are not present in any of the photos or video I see, the kids nose doesn’t even look broken. The difference as you know between a classification of murder[X] and negligent homicide would be intent on death and I don’t think a witness overhearing “I’m going to kill you” as a reply in a fight outside of a club when attacked and provoked multiple times in a group fight would stand up in court to differentiate between negligent homicide/manslaughter and intentional criminal or premed murder. Mitigating circumstances, justifiable homicide in self-defense, unintentional homicide in terms of not meaning to actually *end the pricks life* are all arguable…and the only hard evidence here being video tape and (we can only see bits) photos of the guys corpse all make it an easy, especially in China vs. the police, victory for the defense. By reading posts it also seems the public wont give much of an outcry for such a conclusion as it seems most people blame the kid for being a social disease rather than victim.
My gf just translated the news for me. In fact, it seems the police are dealing with it as any country and it seems there was one ring leader, 3 railway cops, 3 normal cops, argument about parking.
They are all in jail and the police pathologist and a private pathologist are examining the body.
She is of the opinion that the one guy may receive the death penalty and the five others punished.
@Rick the Little Dick in China
Is that what your students taught you about the law at the kindergarten you teach at?
Or are you an ex cop?
Have another Yanjing, UFC Champ.
@Robert Black
Attempting to belittle me by adding “the little dick” is hardly helping to back up your claims…someone claiming to have been in a professional occupation for a decade. It is becoming of the rest of your amazing social stature – being a teacher in China for a decade+ (whoa, you must be quite old…Act your age.) and making a living bragging about drunken debauchery and prostitution in a $2.50 online book with a target audience of other idiotic teachers who make their way through life on a China teacher’s salary exploiting the darkest parts of society in the developing country they live in.
People like you are nothing more than contributions to the diseased parts of society. I feel bad for your ‘girlfriend’.
@Rick with the little dick
Why not post a sensible comment instead of trying to make yourself seem intelligent.
By girlfriend says she guesses 12cms and a great master de bater.
Thanks for mentioning my novel though:
The Fake Celebrity in China
Bookhabit.com
On a more serious note the youngest age of the murdering cops was 28 and the oldest 31.
You are tough guys killing a 22 year old student with arms barely enough muscle to hurt with a punch.
If you get acquitted you can go to the UFC and make your fortunes, along with Rick with the Little Dick, ex cop now kindergarten teacher.
Oh sorry, I forgot, the UFC requires fighters to fight one to one and kind of be brave, fair and manly.
Hmmmm. Oh those horrible technicalities.
Oh my~~
@Rick with the little dick
A young guy was killed here, murdered, in a disgusting fashion
Yet you have the disrespect, the audacity to play, “I know the law more then you, hehe.”
You fucking piece of shit.
I wanna see his Mother and his Aunt and his Sister beat you to death.
Oh, I want to see it.
You piece of shit.
You have no respect.
I bet you are a Canadian.
I think Rick is in IT, and why so much animosity? He merely pointed out the obvious, the kid started the fight, he continually provoked one of the police and he was killed in the fight, there was no intent to murder by the police, that’s obvious; more like voluntary manslaughter, one of them may get life in prison, it’s hard to justify death penalty even in China for this. And like Rick said, public opinion will be firmly against the kid, the public hates corrupt officials, but it also hates the newly rich who throw their weight around.
Robert Black, how long have you been in China, you never bothered learning the language? I don’t think you should live in an uncvilized country like China, eh, time to make it back to NZ? You sure you still have a valid visa to stay in China? I heard China is trying to get rid of riff raff foreigners who are no longer useful…
one question, officers off duty or on duty?
This is terrible in today’s society. I feel sad for the family and loved one’s of this young man. If this can happen to ordinary Chinese citizen, can you imagine what happens to Ethnic minorities by these same Chinese police and paramilitary force??
One more story about “little emperors” and police brutality. Everyday story in developed countries.
Although, policemen should be sentenced. You can not enforce law if you breaking the law. They were drunk, they pursue guy, then beat him. Six over one…
But, if dead guy had had proper education and had been well mannered this would never happened.
It’s so amazing to me to see so much discussion on this story, and almost no discussion of this sort on similar parking spot shootings elsewhere in the world. It is hard to deny the fact that everyone’s infatuated with China, where people do things the old-fashioned way with their hands rather than with guns.
Did anybody bother to do a search on google on parking space killings?
http://video.nbc4.com/player/?id=280768
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E7D7153FF935A25753C1A961958260
http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/102597/LA0691.htm
Slow down guys…slow down. No need for name calling.
@Tenzin
Are you the tenz I know?
@Amazing
I don’t think people care so much about this single incident so much, but, what it represents – which is the “type” of act that seems to be happening more and more. In fact, I don’t think it’s happening much more frequently, only being heard about more due to internet and media…but that’s an assumption not worth arguing.
Robert Black wrote:
“Rubbish, I was a criminal defence lawyer from 1988 to 1998.
They maybe could push for manslaughter but from what the witnesses heard, that defence must fail. Mentioning beating him to death as they were doing it is pretty good evidence to show intent.”
Wouldn’t the prosecution have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was malice aforethought i.e. no doubt there is actus reus, but for the murder charge to hold, there has to be clear evidence of mens reus too.
I would like to hear your thoughts.
@Breezin through
It is actus reus and mens rea
Action and intention
No malice that is defamation law
The prosecution need to prove intent to kill or reckless disregard.
The police doctor has done the post-mortem and the Mother insisted a private doctor also do one, that is why the body sat there for so long, she wouldn’t allow anyone to move it.
Also, to get more coverage I guess, media wise. Clever.
As he was fleeing and pursued and left the video cam surveillance, the crucial evidence is now the post-mortem.
If he was hit 20 times, or hit repeatedly about the head with a brick, or any weapon was used, this will help to prove murder.
If he has like 5 punches to the head, then the cop was unlucky and I suppose he will get manslaughter.
They kill here for fraud.
There will be no defence of self-defence as he ran away.
One thing you learn as a lawyer is that simple is the way. Keep things simple. Even if Little Dick Rick was a law professor, he still wouldn’t have a fucking clue about true court law. No matter if he read a milion cases.
@Sniper in the wc
zzzzzzzzzzzz
I should add that if someone is heard shouting, something along the lines of, “You know people!? Who you know now? I’ll beat you to death then see who you know!!?”
In any country, that will add to intent for the prosecution.
Please people, have a think, before you post.
@Robert Black RE: “There will be no defence of self-defence as he ran away.”
I suppose a successful defense lawyer would have realized that, uh, since it’s off camera, there’s no proof that he continued to run away once out of the range of the camera. How do you know he didn’t run to find another weapon – turn on the police officer, try to jack him – and get beaten back down in return? You make way too many assumptions, it really defeats your previous claims…or, maybe your illogical and assumptive thinking led to your failure as a lawyer and, as an only alternative, _teaching english_ for a decade+ in China. What a loser. Do you have a big “F A I L U R E” stamp on your forehead?
@ Little Rick what a dick, with a tiny prick, such a prick
As I said think before you post.
It is a little thing called circumstantial evidence.
Good reply though, like that took a day or so of thinking?
I would stay off the pot Mr Canadian.
It was once said, Canadians are like Russians trying to be like Americans.
Oh and bye the way, when I read your posts, the word “loser” just never enters my head, so I guess you got me on that one.
:)
Thanks for mentioning my book again, The Fake Celebrity in China, Bookhabit.com
I see you took the time to download and read the first chapter.
I treat all my fans equally.
Don’t you have a serious kindergarten class to teach tomorrow, subject Law, better get some sleep little boy.
:)
@Robert Black RE: “circumstantial evidence”
Here’s some circumstantial evidence for you:
Based on the following:
1) The dead kid was the original attacker
2) The dead kid showed multiple aggressive attacks
3) The dead kid, previous to death, grabbed an object to hit the police officer with
The ‘circumstantial evidence’ you mention is not evidence at all, in fact, it goes both ways in this case, and supports the idea that the kid was trying to get another, more feasible object to hit back with from around the bend just as easily as he was trying to ‘get away’. The speed at which he ran off camera was faster than the speed at which the chaser ran, which supports the idea that he could have gotten away had that truly been his intention. Your focus on attacking me at a personal level as opposed to focusing on the discussion at hand leads me to believe you are the type who cries himself to sleep at the thought of his own utter failure and aging but single status. Thankfully, I should say, because we can clearly do without more of your DNA in the gene pool…
I find it amusing you refer to me as a “teacher” in attempts to insult me, but in your own book’s summary, ARE A TEACHER. Indication of projectionism, much? “little dick”? *yawn*. Grow up.
@ Rick the little dick, with the tiny prick, who is so slick, just makes us sick, yeah, you got me,
I wasn’t a lawyer at all, I am so ashamed to be so publicly humiliated by a kindergarten teacher, with like loads of time on his hands, loads of time on his own dick.
You should read my novel, the main theme is that little asshole high school wankers with little education and fake degrees come to China, are immediately treated like they are wonderful, fake celebrities, elevated status, whereas in their homne countries, they are just treated like the losers they really are.
They are just commodities, money making machines and the school says, oh Rick you are a great teacher, well, little Rick is only human, so after a while, he begins to believe the words, they become The Fake Celebrities In China, but why stop at teachers, with the backing of the odd Chinese girl they have managed to nail, they go for higher status, why can’t I be an expert lawyer? A brain surgeon?
And all the time they sit at their computer, making their right hand very warm and wet and becoming the Ultimate Fake Celebrities In China. UFC Champions.
Go home, face reality, little worm dick.
If I do I am a lawyer and a novelist.
And you, let me guess, a labourer?
If this little pussy makes you sick check out my novel:
The Fake Celebrity In China at bookhabit.com or just click on my name, or in hard copy at Poseidonbooks.com
And by the way, little Rick, tiny prick, why you defend the pigs so much…oh you were a pig back in Candida?
Well, then fuck off out off this forum, pig, or pig lover.
Ooooh a Candidian Pig, now teaching kindergarten in China, I couldn’t think of anything more disgusting.
Hey little boy Rick, why don’t you share your fascinating story as to how you reached the climax of your life, a kindergarten teacher in China (with a VERY SPECIAL interest in law)?
Come on, don’t be shy, have a try!
Hahaha.
I considered chiming in but frankly, I think between you all, you guys have covered all of the relevant angles that ought to be considered.
I will chime in about one thing though:
Robert Black, dude, you’re spamming. Knock it off. Above this are four straight posts from you and all four are insults against other people, all four do not contribute to the discussion about the actual topic, and they try to advertise for your book.
Now, I’ll readily admit I have enjoyed even vanity press books like your’s (Around the World in 80 Babes) but seriously, you’re becoming a nuisance. Worse still, I think you’re actually trying to be more annoying than normal. I’m not sure if that’s who you are or if you feel that’s going to rile people up to read your book or what, but it sure isn’t earning you any goodwill, man.
If you enjoy this website, either contribute positively to it with your comments or avoid making it an uncomfortable place for others who do. I imagine Fauna is holding herself to some misguided ideal to let you have your say but I’m pretty sure quite a few of us are on the edge of firing off an email to her making a strong case for you abusing the comments and just plain spamming.
Chill, man, or I’m sure there’s some server setting that will just block you from this website so the rest of us can go back to enjoying what Fauna works so hard to provide us entirely free.
Robert Black, how come I can’t find your book(s) on Amazon.com? Isn’t it hard to sell books if you can’t get it listed on the major online site? A failed lawyer and a zero-hit wonder novelist? Aren’t yourself a fake celebrity (or whatever term you mentioned that no one else ever uses) yourself?
I would read your book, but I usually try to read “good” books, you know, written by someone like Peter Hessler, someone who writes well. Sorry, like everyone else, I’ll have to pass on your book before I bother reading it.
By the way, wipe the foam off your mouth, you’re a 40-year old failed kiwi living in China and only one phone call away by a bitter ex-gf to get deported from China. Getting harder and harder to impress local people these days, wouldn’t you say, kiwi, especially since people see right through you…feeling it?
@LoveChinaLongTime
I have to agree China doesn’t seem to have many 1 v 1 battles: more likely to see a group of people surrounding one person here, someone getting thrashed from multiple directions,
Wait… is this THE Robert Black?? The one that wrote ‘A Fake Celebrity in China’??
Wow…dude…as much as you are spamming us to death with irrelevant posts here…your book was awesome…and had a bunch of stories and places that I really saw or that friends had happen to them. Seriously warped but not outlandish given where you situated them.
@Robert black
so what are you doing now in China anyway, if not practicing law on an internet blog forum??
@SniperWZ
I am reveling in the irony of all of his attempts to insult, the fact that he’s continuing with the “you’re a teacher, a fake celebrity” then brags about being a novelist — $2.50 on an anyone-can-publish website. Not only that, but the fact that it has led the argument off-topic continually…he’s very John McCain-y for a kiwi.
I’d also like to note that 3 of his posts are approx 30-40 minutes apart. He’d probably lose his visa had his school known he was posting hate between classes.
That being said, since there’s nothing in all of the above posts relevant to the discussion, I guess there’s not much more to be said.
@ veer left, thanks glad you liked it, it is available hard copy, poseidonbooks.com, they listed it in Amazon and is 23 Aussie dollars, ebook $2.50 US at bookhabit.
You should check out The Control Sickness, my first novel also available at bookhabit.
@ sniper in the wc
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
@ Robert Black:
Dude, do you see that button on the sidebar that says “Advertise Here?” It’s red. Click on it, it would be a better and more professional way for you to advertise your book instead of inundating the comments. Sometimes it takes money to make money.
@Rick, hahahaha, yes, the irony is indeed rich. A failed lawyer and “novelist” who works as a teacher insulting you as a teacher and a fake, must be a serious case of self-loathing. I suspect he was disbarred in NZ due to either incompetence (as demonstrated in his ignorance of the difference between murder and manslaughter) or ethical issues, that’s why he can’t go back, he’s a 40 year old failed writier, back in NZ, he’s a nobody.
I’d compare him to Sarah Palin, a nobody suffering from incoherence and pretensions of greatness (also close to a Great Gatsby type but without the achievement and success), all it takes for someone like that to hang is to hand over the ropes…
@Kai, at $2.50 a copy * 0 copies, there are just not many options for Black to pay for advertising, if you want to bother, you can do a search, he has shamelessly spammed other sites with his desperate efforts to drum up interest in his NY Times Worstseller book.
zzzzzzzz again? hahahaha, don’t fall asleep Robert, or the boogie man (also known as PSB officer) may pick you up and deport you.
@SniperWZ
As I mentioned earlier – I think he’s projecting. Really getting riled up in his storm of isults, I bet you each time he hits “Submit” he…oh man – REVELATION: He is in fact the guy in the posting titled “Caught: Guy Playing Audition, Funny Expressions”!
I also did a google and noticed the spam on boards to push his trash. Reading the advertising paragraph was enough to dismiss it as worthless rants and stories (likely embellished resulting from imaginative alcoholism) to try to reach the crowd who finishes class and goes to the local Laowai haunt to drink 10kuai beers and trade stories about how bad China is, when in fact, not only are they taking part, but contributing to the shit scene they surround themselves with.
@ SniperWZ: Yeah, I noticed.
Here’s my final advice to Mr. Black before I sign off on this topic of him spamming his book:
1. Notice that you’re getting flak for how you’re going around spamming your book and needlessly insulting others…and not because of what your book is about or what you do in your book. That’s a key difference between becoming notorious and just being an antagonizing jackass no one cares for.
2. If you don’t have the means to advertise your book in a more socially acceptable manner, consider a different distribution and marketing method. Try the China Bounder approach. Use a blog to share your stories and thoughts for free. Get people to come to you and discuss on your website, building up the buzz/backlash. A blog is free to start. Monetize by throwing Google AdSense around your website. You might make more money than $2.50 and you don’t need to spam if your content is worthwhile.
3. I think we’ve already spent far too much time giving you attention for your antics. We’re now feeding a troll, you. You started off fine, but somewhere along the line you went off the deep end. The next time I write about your book will be in an email to Fauna requesting that your irrelevant spammy comments to be deleted.
@ everyone else:
Maybe we can try ignoring him rather than flaming him. I think he delights in the attention. Let’s not give it to him.
@Kai
Agreed, and done.
Hurray for the little weiners, certainly too many here to mention.
Here is my advice to all you loser kindergarten teaching heroes out there:
If you are going to make a comment about the law, at least have a law degree.
If you are going to criticise a book, at least have read it, or one whole book in your entire lifetime.
If you are going to criticise another novelist at least have written one yourself.
If I have spent too much time in loserville Chinapat.
You can always tell a loser controlled chat forum when the majority of the posters are young males (so called teachers in China), just check out thatsbeijing.
Adios weiners, reply I guess about 3 times each, the bum boys kai, sniper wc and rick with he little dick.
Make yourselves feel better.
They will go unread though by the great Robert Black.
- Obsession with penis suggests hidden homosexuality, or fears of impotence, deal with it.
- Your law degree is worthless, it’s NZ so nobody recognizes it.
- Won’t read your book, nice try though
- I wrote plenty of fluff in high school, that makes me a novelist, too, compared to you
- You’ve spent too much time getting your face ripped off here and in the real world.
- You can always tell someone is a loser when that person is a 40 something failed lawyer who desperately promotes his $2.50 “book” like a spammer.
- Robert who? Never heard of you and will likely soon forget your name, like most people you’ve encountered.
Robert Black… you aren’t doing yourself any favors by insulting all these people here. I liked your story, but your conduct on here is not appropriate.
In fact,these six policemen are poor guy. They must will be punished seriously,cause the young students’s relatives are who own power and money. Student “Che”’s father is a high official of HeiLongjiang Province.
The died guy’s father is a rich businessman and his uncle is even a high offical of chinese government!! And before die,”Lin” had taken drugs and drunk .And he tried to attack the six policemen with brick. What will you react to that situation? So I think they just do imperfect self-defence,On the other hand ,the northern people‘character is expansive and sometime they are too impetuous to control themselves.And this is the Radio that shows that Lin attack the policemen
first.
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/96FUmzYkkVA/
This is really disgusting – not just the beating to death by police, the fighting, etc – but the cold-hearted netizen comments. What’s wrong with you heartless people?
In China,ordinary people should not fight against the Police.When police officers ask you something,you should answer courteously.
what the fuck is wrong with you chinese people? wether he is a good university student or not, that’s beside the point. the hooligan police don’t have the right to beat someone up. much less kill somebody. communism or not, civilians reign supreme over the military. that’s like a universal rule, man. hey chinese people, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Hello,
I am a 33 year old American and have been monitoring this chat board. If I may, I would like to express my point of view in this situation. In the US, police who are off duty are generally discouraged from taking action unless they are acting at the time in an emergency and immediate action is required. I have been a local police officer for 9 years and I have never shot anyone or used any more force to make an arrest than was necessary. I think the main question that must be asked is if the officers were intoxicated at the time of the incident. In the US, we (police), may not carry our weapon if we are going to be consuming alcohol. If we are caught armed while drinking we are terminated from the force. Lastly, I applaud all of the young Chinese citizens who show the courage to speak out against the government authority when they believe that human rights have been violated. As an American police officer, my first priority is to uphold the constitutional rights of all citizens, even if they use these rights to criticize police. Well done!
@An American Friend
RE: “In the US”
Well, not sure how familiar you are with China or the police force here. Most police officers do not carry guns, nor weapons, nor shoot people. The police did not shoot this kid, or beat him with any sort of equipment or police weaponry (assumption, but nobody has ever mentioned this and they certainly weren’t armed in the video).
That being said – in the US, if you are an off duty police officer and are attacked with a brick at a nightclub, what’s your response? Not specifically you, either, what do you think a common response is? Don’t give me the PR “we would disarm and hold the assailant calmly for on-duty officers to arrive”, we both know that’s not always true. Surely you may be an excellent and honest cop, but to imply that there aren’t cases like this where police are _attacked_ and fight back while they’re off duty and/or drinking during leisure time, and it results in death (possibly accidental, kids body didn’t look bruised up), is deplorable.
If you watched the video, the police in question here, in my opinion, showed ENORMOUS restraint. Imo that kid didn’t deserve _death_, but accidents happen, and situations escalate out of control…it was the result of him being a nuisance and an idiot with so much arrogance and ignorance that it ended his life.
I googled and found the progress on the investigation of 10.11 incident as reported from a government conference in Nov. 18
(I’m not an expert in law so my translation may not be accurate even wrong)
http://news.163.com/08/1118/16/4R1VQN2F0001124J.html
哈尔滨市公安局副局长卢洪喜说，哈尔滨市人民检察院经审查认为，齐新(原哈尔滨铁路公安局直属公安处刑警大队副大队长)、刘力男(原哈尔滨铁路公安局指挥中心民警)涉嫌故意伤害，符合《中华人民共和国刑事诉讼法》第六十条规定的逮捕条件，检察机关于2008年11月14日批准对两人依法实施逮捕，现羁押于市公安局看守所。
卢洪喜说，杨森的行为分别触犯《中华人民共和国刑法》第二百三十四条第二款和第二百三十四条第一款之规定，哈尔滨市人民检察院经审查根据《中华人民共和国刑事诉讼法》第六十条规定，以涉嫌故意伤害罪于11月14日对杨森批准逮捕并依法执行，现羁押于市公安局看守所。
two of the six police officers and one man were accused 故意伤害(deliberate injury? sorry about the translation) and detained since 11/14. and the autopsy report shown that the reason of death was
http://news.163.com/08/1106/18/4Q3A02TO0001124J.html
系头面部受钝性外力作用致蛛网膜下腔出血死亡
man, i really don’t know how to translate this, anyone please help
@An American Friend
Not sure about US, but Chinese police are really not a easy job. According to this Xinhua article
http://news.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2002-09/18/content_565259.htm
in the first 6 month of 2002, there were 229 Chinese police officers died on duty and 2826 injured. China’s police to population ratio is 11 to ten thousands comparing to some western countries’ 35 to ten thousands. They sacrifice their health even lives to help China achieve a relatively low crime rate. There are lots of stories about the hardness being a policeman’s wife since overtime is very normal. There’s no doubt that China today still has many problems in law enforcement, but I give my credit to these beloved officers.
police should play the role of lawman,they are gangdom or police?what a society of china!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To “Rick in China”,
Yes, I agree that the officers in this case did have a right to use force to defend theirselves against this young man. A brick is a weapon and is capable of causing serious injury or death and if the brick was indeed used against the officers than they are even morwe justified in using a higher level of force to subdue the suspect. American police, as you know, are equipped with the most technologically advanced law enforcement tools and weapons currentl available. For example, I carry a .40 caliber Glock hand gun but I also carry several “less lethal” weapons such as a taser gun,OC pepper spray and ASP baton. I was not present at the altercation in Harbin and I do not have enough information to judge the actions of these 6 police officers. However, I can state without a doubt that I would have made every attempt to employ a “less lethal” weapon against the suspect armed with a brick before using lethal force if possible. Perhaps the outcome could have been different if these 6 officers had more force options available to them at the time. Do you agree?
@An American Friend
I agree that if they were on duty and had less lethal options to subdue them the outcome could have been different.
They were off-duty though, you carry your pepper spray off-duty? to a club? As for ASP batons, if they had steel whip weapons I am not so sure it would have been a better result than using their fists. :)
Rick in China,
I do not go to clubs and bars often and I do not drink alcohol but if I did choose to go to those places I would indeed carry my OC pepper spray because I am not allowed to carry a firearm while off duty in those types of establishments but there are no regulations against carrying spray because it cannot cause death or permanent injury. Again, without having all of the facts in this case I am hesitant to make assumptions but this is what I believe probably occured. I think that the cause of death will likely be asphyxiation due to constraint of the victim’s torso. When 6 unarmed men try to subdue one resisting person, the altercation always results in the single individual being pinned down by the others. In law enforcement we call this a “pig pile”. Looking at the post mortem photos of the suspect, I did not observe any obvious indications of severe pysical injury. This would suggest that he was not fatally beaten since we would see evidence of this in the photos. He was likely suffocated while being restrained by the officers. The weight of 6 men is enough to cause death because the suspect cannot breathe whith this amount of weight on him. Again, only an autopsy will reveal the actual cause of death. If the officers were indeed only trying to restrain an intoxicated suspect who was actively resisting, criminal charges would not be warranted since they did not intend to cause death. If we find out that the officers were grossly negligent and continued to use force after the suspect was under control than a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter may be appropriate. What do you think?
@An American Friend
I think your observations are logical and likely – in an earlier post I mentioned the same observations without coming to the conclusion of asphyxiation, I thought maybe he had a heart attack or broke his neck in a fall or something similar. I think your explanation sounds more likely. As far as pepper spray at clubs – sure it’s not illegal, but I doubt the bouncers would let you pack that shit in their establishment :D
Rick in China,
Are you an American? I am curious because your English is excellent and suggest that it is your native language?
People should watch the video first before making any judgement. The university student is a scumbag to the police, displaying arrogant attitude and even hit the police first. I am not saying who’s right or wrong. But One has the responsibility to know the whole situation and not let your emotions effect your judgement.
some people have mation that the time on the video was worng!
the police did hidden sth!
i want to know how did the story end
@ Robert Hack: Your claim of being a lawyer has sure pedded the bullshit-o-meter. I guess that’s why you are in China raping girls.
Your book is garbage. Anybody can read it here for free (because nobody would obviously pay for it) here:
http://www.worthyofpublishing.com/R18.asp?book_ID=1059
Was that book written by your 2-year-old sister?
I hate spoiled Chinese people in China. I’m glad the cops are punks too. As long as people are dissatisfied with the system and the people that control it, the better it will be.
lesson: don’t play big shot when you’re not.
Chinas police can play onsite judges. I almost went to jail for getting hit by another car. All they wanted was money. Police are pigs everywhere.