Diaosi: Peking University Releases Report on China’s “Losers”

A male Chinese crowd (of "diaosi") at ChinaJoy.

From NetEase:

Peking University Releases Diaosi Living Conditions Report: Changchun Is Most Diaosi City

On October 29th, Peking University’s Market and Media Research Center released the first national “Diaosi Living Conditions Report/Study, with the report showing: diaosi earn an average of 2919.7 yuan per month [~479 USD], and 72.3% of diaosi are unhappy with their lives. What worries diaosi the most remains their family, with diaosi giving 1076.7 yuan to their parents on average every month. In terms of industries, agricultural industries have the highest diaosi index, whereas the diaosi index in marketing/public relations/media, sports & fitness, and finance/banking/investments/funds/securities industries is relatively low.

The Peking University Market and Media Research Center expressed to The Paper (www.thepaper.cn) that the word “diaosi” originated from the internet, spread until today where it is no longer derogatory, and represents the rise of an internet subculture. The 2013 Diaosi Living Conditions Report is a study jointly conducted by the Peking University Market and Media Research Center and classifieds portal Ganji. The study ran from 2014 September 1 until October 1, collecting a total of 213,795 questionnaire responses covering over 50 large, medium, and small cities, comprehensively reflecting the living conditions of those working at the lowest levels of the workforce.

Level of education not high, essentially without savings

Are you a diaosi? Have you saved up 100,000 yuan? Have you purchased a home for yourself in which you paid/pay the full amount? If your answer is yes, congratulations, you are no longer a diaosi.

The diaosi in this study primarily covers people who have already joined the workforce, have less than 100,000 yuan in personal savings, have not purchased a home or have purchased a home but did/does not pay the full amount [purchase price or mortgage payments].

Male diaosi are generally between 21-25; female between 26-30.

The term diaosi is no longer derogatory, and more and more people are using the word diaosi to characterize their own lives. So then, just what are “diaosi” like?

Male diaosi are generally between 21-25 years of age; female diaosi are between 26-30 years of age; commonly their level of education is not high; most have gone out [left their hometowns] to find work, have yet to find a life partner, and have an average monthly income of 2917.7 yuan. Generally, they do not have any savings.

Monthly income of 2917.7 yuan, half work overtime every week

Among the over 210k people who participated in the questionnaire survey, 62.2% consider themselves diaosi, with their ages primarily distributed between 21-30 years of age, and low-level workers most common in the workforce. Their average monthly wage is 2917.7 yuan, while 2013 official statistical data showed that the average wage in Beijing was 5793 yuan [~950 USD].

Among diaosi, 73.6% are far from their hometowns, their main reason for leaving home was the hope of earning more money, thus changing their own lives and that of their families. Drifting far away from home, the lives of diaosi are simple, keeping their three meals a day within 39 yuan [~6.40 USD] total, with 7.8% of them keeping it within 10 yuan [~1.64 USD], and the monthly rent paid by half of the respondents are 500 yuan [~82 USD] and under.

To make a living away from home, they must rely on themselves, with 41% of diaosi relying on the internet to find work, and most of them changing jobs once every three years.

The study shows that over half of diaosi don’t need to work overtime, but those who have to work overtime nearly every day still make up 21.7% of the whole. Hard work does not necessarily earn a commensurate return, with nearly 60% of diaosi working overtime without getting paid overtime, with the proportion of diaosi who work overtime almost every day without getting paid overtime being the largest, reaching 68.6%.

Diaosi generally spend less than 39 yuan a day on food [~6.40 USD].

Even so, diaosi do not actually consider overtime the biggest source of stress in their work, but instead it is interpersonal relationships and employment uncertainty that torments these low-level workers in the workforce.

Work and making money occupies the majority of their time. Leisure for most diaosi is something of a luxury, with 54.2% of respondents only having 500 yuan a year in travel funds. Compared to going out for fun, diaosi prefer to stay at home, and as such, 65.7% of them choose online shopping as their primarily method of shopping. Social networking and gaming software also become godsends for those who stay at home.

Half of diaosi are single, with 71% giving money to their parents

CCTV once did a famous street interview [in 2012], asking “are you happy?” 52.7% of male diaosi feel they are unhappy, with female diaosi being a little better, but still 48.1% of respondents are not happy. Diaosi between the ages of 25-30 especially are the least happy group among all diaosi. Apart from the pressures of work, they are either struggling as singles or bearing the burden of providing for the elderly above [their parents] and the young below [their children].

Compared to peers still in their hometowns, 50.4% of diaosi who have gone out remain single.

What worries diaosi the most is family, with 33.1% believing their biggest regret/failure to their parents is not being able to care for them in person. Diaosi on average send their parents 1076.7 yuan [~176 USD] every month, and with an average monthly income of 2917.7 yuan, what they give their parents makes up 36.9% of their monthly income. A 71% majority of diaosi give their parents money [for living expenses], with “1-500 yuan” being the highest proportion at 31.2%, then “501-1000 yuan” at 24.4%.

Financially independent diaosi have an awareness of repaying their parents, and those with children also give whatever they can towards the raising of their children, spending [an average of] 2639.7 yuan on their children every month, nearly taking up all of an individual’s [average] income.

Diaosi on average give their parents 36.9% of their monthly income.

The mental and emotional state of diaosi is even more deserving of attention. This huge grassroots-level demographic, just what kind of thoughts and feelings do they have? 37.8% of diaosi believe they have mental disorders, simultaneously have not received proper psychological guidance, with most resorting to sleeping, venting, and drinking to cope, but still 4.4% of respondents choose self-harm/injury to relieve stress.

Diaosi index ranking: Jilin highest, agricultural and forestry industry the most

Through calculations, the study obtained diaosi indices for different cities, provinces, regions, industries, etc.

Changchun is this year’s most diaosi city, while Jilin is the most diaosi province. The average diaosi index of every province was 78.81, with Jilin’s diaosi index being the highest, reaching 86.07, followed by Shanxi at 83.92, and Mongolia following closely behind. In comparison, the diaosi index for the Imperial City and Magical City are both low, with Beijing at 74.89, and Shanghai at 75.11.

In terms of industry, the agricultural and forestry industry was the most diaosi industry, with the highest index rating, reaching 85.6. Second was the supermarket/department store/retail store industry, and ranking third was the pharmaceutical/bioengineering industry. The diaosi index for the marketing/public relations/media, sports and fitness, advertising, and finance/banking/investments/funds/securities industries were relatively low.

(Original title: Peking University Releases First National “Diaosi Living Conditions Report”: Changchun Most Diaosi City)

Comments from NetEase:

READ  Tests for Migrants to Settle in Beijing? Chinese Reactions

网易北京市手机网友 ip:111.197.*.*

Peking University has already become a collection and distribution center for stupid cunts!

网警002 [网易安徽省芜湖市网友]:

Me, monthly income 8k, debt/mortgage of 2 million, I bet I’ll be a slave all my life, not even rising to the level of a diaosi. For 2 million, I’m willing to sell my soul, any takers?

上网真不容易啊 [网易广东省深圳市网友]:

My base pay is 5000, and including commission, I make around 100k a year, yet I still feel I am a diaosi, with overwhelming stress, without a house or car, and not daring to buy a house or car, scrimping and saving wherever I can in my spending, so much that I even think I’ve developed clinical depression.

自古貳樓出煞筆 [网易广东省佛山市手机网友]:

The Imperial City finally goes into open sneering mode…

小鸭子 [网易江西省吉安市手机网友]:

All true, collapsed in tears in the bathroom.

From NetEase:

State-Media Discusses “Diaosi“: This Word Conceals Self-Demeaning, Must Be Criticized and Spurned

The December 2nd People’s Daily [newspaper] focused on the subject of “diaosi“.

In an article titled “The Belittling of Oneself, Can We Give It A Rest?”, the writer definitively writes that the term “diaosi” has already become a label many young people give themselves.

The writer worries that the popularity of the subculture associated with this term has complex social and psychological factors behind it. But the implicit self-denigration in it should be criticized and spurned, as its destructiveness to the psychological health of young people cannot be ignored.

The writer also claims people who consider themselves “diaosi” can be divided into three types: one type are those who belittle themselves on the surface but do not necessarily think little of themselves within; one type are those who belittle themselves and genuinely believe it; the third type are those who actually are stunted [lacking] and don’t care.

“The first type is self-deprecating [being humble], the second type is lacking self-esteem, while the last type is simply in a state of indifference.” The writer believes, “no matter what type, even if the existence of diaosi culture is subjectively intended to manifest courage in the face of the mainstream, or treated as a down-to-earth internet spirit, objectively it still has not made young people more independent/unconventional much less fostered much of a healthy atmosphere/environment in society.

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  • Jazz88

    I think I’ve been using this word a bit wrong. In reality, I think of 屌丝 as people who are a bit arrogant and cocky, despite being dorks/socially incapable. The people described in this report are actually just poor.

    • johndoe

      You’ve mixed up with the word “叼“

  • Free Man

    Wow, 5 comments translated. Wasn’t that too much work?

    • Matt

      5 comments, plus 2 articles spanning 3 pages…

      When’s the last time you translated 3 pages of articles for free?

      • biggj

        Free?? You think these guys do all this for nothing?? If that were the case there would be no advertisements on this page.

        • Kai

          God willing, there won’t be any advertisements on the page soon.

          … and part of the reason is because a lot of the time, we do all this for nothing to very little (meaning far less than the market rate for this level of translation services).

          Stay tuned.

          • Free Man

            Please keep the ads. And dear fellow readers, please click on them. I think thats more than fair. You offer something, you get something. But offering less gets you less and makes people not come again. So take my comment as a encouragement. I like reading stuff about my chinese hommies and gossip with others about them. But if I need chinese news without comments, I watch CCTV News.

          • Kai

            Unfortunately, advertising has been getting in the way of us translating stuff about your Chinese homies. Stay tuned.

          • Zappa Frank

            for nothing? is passion nothing? isn’t because you like to do it?isn’t for our love?

          • Kai

            We’ve been doing this out of passion since the beginning, and providing our passion to all of you in order to feel the love (and often hate) you guys return has costs. These costs have been paid by people who don’t really care about our passion or your love for our passion and are increasingly forcing us to do things we have no passion for. Will you love us then?

          • Zappa Frank

            depends what the things you don’t have passion for will be.. is it the meaning that cs is going to change or what?

          • Kai

            Yes.

        • Matt

          The point is, we the readers aren’t paying for any of it.
          As for this page having advertisements…no comment.

        • Xia

          You forgot server costs.

          • Repatriated

            HAHAHAHA. Like a website is so expensive these days.

          • Boris

            Depends on the costs. There is the server, band limit, cost for hosting the site, giving up free time to maintain and update the site, etc. Also, how much are they making from the advertising? I assume they make it per click and then per sale. Which leads to the question of how many people are actually clicking and then even going on to buy the product.

          • Kai

            A media-heavy website that serves this large of an audience in a reasonable fashion is, especially without any support from a corporation, government, or academic institution.

          • Free Man

            Heavy media? Dude, you just have some images, all the videos run on Youku/Youtube. Whats heavy media in here? Did I miss something? Like a huge MP3/4 collection of songs and movies?

            I am running a couple of websites from small to huge (60 mio hits per day). A website like ChinaSmack is not expensive, or your tech dudes are useless/cheating on you. I could build this website within a week and make it run for less than 100 bucks per month on a server that could handle more traffic than a real news paper would ever hope to get. Without any support at all.

          • Kai

            If you’re telling us the truth, then you’re simply more talented at building and maintaing websites than Fauna, me, or Thomas are. As the guy whose credit card is on file whenever we exceed our allotted bandwidth because Fauna can’t pay for it, I have a pretty good idea of what our costs are. You may be unsympathetic to us but I wish you wouldn’t unfairly bust our balls for not being as talented as you are in certain things.

            Continuing with my appeal to emotion: chinaSMACK is not just a website or a server. It’s about all the familiarity with Chinese internet culture and translation skill its contributors have put into it over the past 6+ years. It’s about all our contributors time and energy, which we take from our ordinary commitments. It’s about putting up with people who misunderstand what we’re doing or even hate on us for it.

            Maybe you can save us a bunch of money on technical costs, but could you get us enough support for everything else we put into cS?

          • Free Man

            How about trying a provider that doesnt charge you for traffic? there are enough of them out there. Keeps costs more stable.

          • Kai

            The concept of “unlimited bandwidth” is a bait and switch in the web hosting industry. It might work for really simple static sites, but anything else and you outgrow your hosting not because of bandwidth but because of server overhead. You run out of server resources long before you run out of “unlimited bandwidth”.

            I don’t know how long you’ve been reading cS but this site STARTED out on an unlimited bandwidth basic hosting account. Soon it was on VPS setups and now a much fancier setup on Internap. This setup comes with a reasonable amount of bandwidth, but every so often, we go over it because something goes viral.

            Even so, we’ve tried really hard to keep things lean, trying to find a compromise between functionality/features and how much server resources are needed to generate a page or handle concurrent connections and database queries. Thomas has done a really admirable job, I think. One of the reasons we switched to Disqus was even because it would lessen our load just a bit, reducing pageviews.

          • Free Man

            Maybe we don’t talk the same language. Bandwidth in my dictionary is the amount of data flowing per time, like 1 MB per second. Unlimited bandwidth indeed is nonsense, there are enough other technical limits and bottle necks like small connections between your server and the client. However, the providers I know limit the bandwidth, so you can’t exceed it. Hear me? You can’t exceed it and therefore you can not get charged for exceeding it (or your provider is a real son of a bitch).

            Your problem rather sounds like a traffic limitation. If the website is like 100KB big and 10 people wanna read it, you spend 1000KB of your available traffic. That’s how “bad” provider make money. Good providers offer unlimited traffic. Then people can read your website as many times as they want and you don’t pay more. Thats what I suggested and its not a bait. Amazon AWS for example charges you for traffic, but not bandwidth. While AWS has nice features for large +fast stuff, I keep my smaller clients on cheap virtual root servers with unlimited traffic, so they can do whatever without my bill exploding. It might be slower (not always, depends on many things), but the costs are stable.

            Never heard of Internap (the company running your server, or at least the IP of this website). But if they charge you for the traffic, then I know another provider I will never use.

          • Kai

            Sorry for the confusion, I guess I have a bad habit of using bandwidth and traffic interchangably. cS uses a CDN, and like AWS, we do get charged for overages in traffic.

            I don’t think your distinction between bad/good providers on the basis of charging for traffic is fair. We’d all like unlimited everything but we have to compromise on what’s available and what sort of availability we want our site to have.

            You can read more about Internap here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internap

            Whether you’ve heard of them or not (the industry is big), they’ve done alright by us so far as a reasonably large company that makes 300 million a year.

            Anyway, my point is, please don’t shit on us unfairly. I don’t think we’ve done anything patently stupid or inexcusable for people feeling the stones to cross the river. We had a lot of growing pains and we tried our best, went through many hosting providers, and our goal throughout it all was to keep the site online and available for our readers, through viral traffic spikes and DDoS attacks. All on our spare time, because we think what we’re doing is interesting and underrepresented.

          • Free Man

            You mistake my comments as shitting on you. If someone shows you your weak spots, don’t take it as shitting on you, even if it hurts.

            You’ve mentioned traffic spikes. You know what a traffic spike means? You were not prepared. It’s nobody’s fault, but yours. Your expectations of what would happen were wrong. You complain about DDoS attacks? Hell, we get one every month or so. That only shows that you are successful enough to piss someone off (that again means you are doing something right).

            Well, you don’t have to like me, or listen to me, not even believing me is necessary. But if this project is not making enough profit to cover the costs and you still have to bring in money, you are doing something entirely wrong.

          • Kai

            There is earnestly trying to help. There is constructive criticism. And then there is shitting on people. Whether or not I’ve misinterpreted you, your multiple comments in this thread and in past comments have consistently struck a tone of being mean-spirited if not simply condescending.

            For example:

            You’ve mentioned traffic spikes. You know what a traffic spike means? You were not prepared. It’s nobody’s fault, but yours.

            First, did we blame anyone? Did we say it was anyone’s “fault”? No. I even called it a “blessing”. You’re also making assumptions of what we should’ve known. Specifically, you’re shitting on Fauna here for affording a basic shared hosting plan to practice her English and never expecting not only growing popularity but also sudden viral traffic spikes. You’re shitting on us for upgrading to what we can afford and it still not being enough at times.

            So yes, it’s our “fault” that we couldn’t predict what was needed, and then couldn’t immediately afford what was needed for exceptional circumstances. We had to learn and bootstrap as we went. We still do.

            You complain about DDoS attacks?

            Yes, because they are worth complaining about. Because they are disruptive and costly in all their malicious pettiness. If much larger sites can complain about them, so can we.

            Well, you don’t have to like me, or listen to me, not even believing me is necessary. But if this project is not making enough profit to cover the costs and you still have to bring in money, you are doing something entirely wrong.

            Maybe, or it just means we prioritized our time and energy towards translating and sharing about Chinese internet culture over making money, over bean-counting. It may just mean we focused on simply keeping this site going over trying to squeeze money out of it for every possible contingency. Perhaps what we care about is just pursuing an interest and doing just enough to keep it sustainable.

            I understand you see yourself as pointing out weak spots to “help” or complaining about our work to “encourage” us. Please consider my feedback of your approach as also being well-intentioned and for your benefit.

          • Xia

            So much discussion coming from too few comments being translated…

            But if we could help to make this site better, I think we all would be glad to do so.

            Even the ones who have made it a habit to troll on Cs. They just want to get a kick out of wacky Chinese troll comments. Trolls grow by looking at each other. ;)

          • Kai

            Heh, I don’t think the bulk of the discussion was really about any initial desire for more comments (it’d be interesting if people speculated why so few were translated, as that might show how well they follow Fauna’s habits and predispositions). Most of it was about how it came across.

            We do hope what you say is true, because we’re pretty much at a do or die point now. A few more things to sort away and be sure of.

          • Free Man

            Is considered, though I think you made it clear you ain’t able to do the same.

          • Free Man

            Wait, you want to turn off the ads, because you think the ads are busting your bandwidth or traffic limits????

          • Kai

            No, we want to turn off ads because advertisers are compromising our editorial independence. Unfortunately, it isn’t as simple as just turning them off, because those ads pay for the site’s expenses, and the site’s expenses are not negligible.

            More on this hopefully soon.

          • Xia

            How are the ads effecting your editorial independence? We could just click on them for your sake.

          • Kai

            We’ll explain how soon, very soon I hope. Thanks for the concern. For now, definitely don’t click on ads for our sake. A site asking people to click on ads to make money is the cardinal sin of online advertising. You should only click on them if they interest you and you want to learn more.

        • Repatriated

          Gonna totally agree with biggj on this one, especially being in the know that, NOTHING is free in China.

          Why do you think napkin dispensers are “unloaded” faster than they can be loaded in any IKEA? Free shit paper? LOL.

          • Rick in China

            They invent methods to counter this, such as, the dispenser for toilets in a public area – but not a roll, rather, a pull down pull down 1 tissue at a time thing. It takes far more effort for the paper-thieves to pull down individual papers, plus, they are not compressed so it ends up just turning into a giant fluffy clump if they try. Counter-paper-thieving methods are one of the higher trending invention targets in China, I’d imagine.

          • Kai

            I hate those dispensers, because it becomes an exercise in accumulating enough individual sheets to make it thick enough so your fingers don’t break through when wiping your butt, with consequences you can imagine.

            It bothers me extra because I’m rather conservative in my toilet paper use in the first place, looking out for my tree buddies by diligently folding my toilet paper and reusing a clean side until I can fold no more. I’m the kind of guy who takes pride in maximizing such efficiency. :D

          • Rick in China

            I hate those dispensers

            I do too. However, I try to think of the alternative: if there are open rolls, people steal them all the time. If my option is the PITA dispensers, but paper available…vs. no paper at all, I’m pro-dispenser!

            I take pride in folding my paper appropriately, also. I’ve found that the most important area for thickness in paper is on the fingertip side, so to maximize folding efficiency, it’s not best to fold in equal sized pieces — but rather fold in a way that leaves extra thickness on one side where the most friction/pressure will be experienced.

          • Kai

            Hah, yeah, I wasn’t remarking about what’s better to counter paper theft. Good pro-tip on the folding too!

          • bujiebuke

            Rick in China is:
            1. Privileged angry white male
            2. lives in China
            3. Loathes Chinese but obfuscate his feelings by pointing to Chinese proclivities.
            4. Works in IT – claims to “bling bling’in it”
            5. Has a clean butthole
            6. Originally from the frozen wasteland called Canada

          • Rick in China

            1-6. Yep. Except for #3, which needs more abstraction.

            And still looks down on you. Because: I’m better, and it’s rough being a diaosi, so I feel some sort of pity for you. Sort of.

          • bujiebuke

            Your contention that your somehow better than me is in the same line of thought as Americans who profess that their country is “#1”. “We’re Amurica, the best country because we say we are and therefore we are”.

            You lead a sad and pathetic life if all you feel is hate and anger towards your own employees and neighbors. I take joy in knowing that you suffer from misery and contempt every minute that your stuck in China. Stay there and seethe.

            It’s unfortunate that people like you tend be the one’s who breed and pass on their twisted sense of self entitlement to little bastards. You are truly a fucking peasant.

          • Lei Feng’s Hat

            “6. Originally from the frozen wasteland called Canada”

            Do you know what’s helping to thaw out the ‘frozen wasteland’? The friction from the knees of untold thousands of Mainland Chinese as they beg to get in…

            Take a wild guess where the Hat is from.

          • bujiebuke

            Doesn’t matter whether it’s frozen or thawed. It’s either a wasteland of ice or mud.

          • hess

            Do me, do me!

          • bujiebuke

            Not enough information :)

          • Kai

            Technically, nothing is free in the world. TINSTAFL and all that. The ad-supported model is “free” in the sense that you’re not paying with any money but with your attention.

  • donscarletti

    The definition seems a bit arbitrary.

    In Beijing where I live or Sydney where I would live if I wasn’t in Beijing, houses cost a lot of money. You simply cannot buy them outright unless you’ve just cashed in a bunch of stock options, you’re a senior player at some financial services company or you’ve got a bunch of inheritance.

    Now, I know a lot of Chinese are only children and their parents may have a second apartment (due to redevelopment) that they can just have outright. But this does not necessarily make someone more successful than another person who has a better income and social position but owes money on their house that they can pay back over time.

    The guy with the good job might pay off his house by 40 and will be a guy with a good job and a house, but the guy with the house will only ever be just a guy with a house.

    • Free Man

      Life is what you make of it. With 20 I was a NEET without hope or self esteem. Within 10 years everything turned around. I worked hard, learned harder and instead of being satisfied with finding a job, I worked hard to replace my supervisor, then his supervisor … today I am the head of my department, got company shares, bonuses and wouldn’t feel insulted by someone calling me rich&arrogant.

      • Ken Morgan

        The question is how many did that and failed. In that not everybody can be a winner and if we were to compare it to a race. Then there still are a small number of winners and a whole load of losers.
        The I did it and so can you neglects to consider these outcomes. The boomers as well saying this is also fallacious as the world is a very different place now.

        • Free Man

          Very true, it’s a slim chance at best and mostly depends on luck IMHO. But if you try, you might make it. If you don’t even try and just give up, you’ve got a 100% chance of of failure.

      • Xia

        Your chance depends on how many people are in the same race. Competing with 10 people for one spot is an easier game than competing with 100 people for one spot.

        • Free Man

          Wrong. The factors are quality and performance. If you deliver the best performance and quality, what does it matter how much competition you have?

          • Xia

            There is no “best”, only “better”. In 100 persons, there is a higher chance that someone is better than you than if you were comparing yourself with 10 people.

            If you were really the best, then you wouldn’t be NEET at 20. Not everyone in any society has a second chance at that age. I don’t think the Chinese society provides that many opportunities for the people at the bottom of its pyramid. People with less qualification will easily get sorted out, when there is bunch of overqualified people rushing at lesser jobs, because even they don’t have better options. And that does not account for all those who get a head-start, because their family knows the right people. The current competition in China is brutal and quick to crush young people’s dreams. (So in a way, the “Chinese dream” may be a daydream only for the average diaosi. A carrot to keep the donkeys running.)

            http://www.jacobyount.com/fierce-competition-in-china-development/

          • Free Man

            In a race there is a winner. The winner is the “best”. So much for your “no best, only better”.

            You seem to think that life is one big race and decided somewhen between 20 and 30. I think that every day is a new race with a new winner. Everywhere. You didn’t get a job in China today? Well, try USA tomorrow. You say chinese can’t get out of China? Tell that to my wife. She got out on her own. No rich family and she never needed me for a visa, either. You don’t need many opportunities either, 1 is enough if you make use of it.

            I am not the best, never claimed that. I claim to be something better than I and everybody else knowing my 20-year-old-me would ever have guessed I could become. I claim that some of those diasi’s might be like me in 10 years, if they keep trying and are lucky. Not all of them. But some. That’s all.

          • How did she get out of China? Did she get a work visa with a Chinese company for a job in Germany?
            The USA is a very difficult place to get into unless you have money.

          • Free Man

            As you said, its hard to get a visa unless you have money. If a company really, really wants to get you, they can make it happen with money. It might not be a green card or residence permission, it might be limitted by time or only work for the company that brings you in. You just need to make them want you.

          • Whatever society you were indoctrinated in has certain expectations. It is up to you to think outside that box instead of making bad decisions because it is expected to do certain things. Why rely on someone else to create the life you want? Most people have no clue what they want or how to think differently, so they fall into the queue.
            I agree with free man that working hard and continuously learning is important. Is it better to spend an hour playing on the internet or working on learning a new skill?

            Accumulating thousands of dollars in student loans, Getting married, buying a house, having babies…
            these are all some of the normal and expected stages of life in the USA, but a majority of people never stop to ask themselves if taking those steps makes the most sense since those joys/burdens are equivalent to a form of slavery. With those “achievements”, You MUST do something now and you can NOT do something else because of these obligations.
            People age and then panic and convince themselves it is now or never. Then they are locked into the Matrix…

          • biggj

            Well if one of your competitors father is the friend of the guy hiring…he may get the job even if your 100x better…that shit happens all the time….quality and performance are key…but its not the end all be all in getting a job. Right place right time also account for getting a good job.

          • Free Man

            Ok, I change my opinion, there are loads of factors. I think the biggest one is plain luck. Performance and quality are definitely important, but still not deciding the game. But race is rather an excuse like (imagine this with a sad, whiny voice) “I didn’t make it, because I am chinese and there is more competition in China than in X”. Or did I get you wrong, Xia?

          • Xia

            Let’s forget whining faces and stay to objective facts. Do people in different countries have equal opportunity or not? You just don’t realize how luck is already on your side the moment you are born in a better off part of the world, where you even have the privilege of doing your best and expecting something in return. That’s not a given.

          • biggj

            Well looking at other people situation will not help your own. Let it be your neighbor or someone from another country. Doing your best in the best country in the world does not mean you will succeed. Sure there will always be people that will do better than you.

          • Free Man

            It doesn’t matter where you are born, some around you will be in a better situation, some will get stuck in shit up to the bottom lip. Even within western countries. Just being born in a western country doesn’t make life that much easier. I couldn’t find a job in my home country with a local company. I started in a taiwanese computer factory. Something like Foxconn I guess. Like many other chinese people, too. Despite the fact, that I am german and from a modern country, where everything is so easy, as you think. You think I had better chances? Bullshit. I just worked harder, kept learning, and got lucky at the end.

          • Kai

            I think Xia is asking for more recognition that there is such a thing as institutional inequality of opportunity that a remark like “it doesn’t matter where you are born” fails to communicate. He’s not discounting hard work.

          • Xia

            When you started at the taiwanese computer factory, did you get paid the same as the locals? Why did the factory hire a foreigner? Just curious.

            At least Germany has free education from kindergarten up to college. Most university courses don’t have NC and accept all applicants with Abitur, which is not really hard to get. Many Azubis have a decent career option, or it used to be so, unthinkable in China to have a career without university degree. Now that’s something!

            btw, ich studiere in Deutschland. ;)

        • Dr.BhimPatel

          wrong.it does not matter how many people you are competing with,what really matters is how many of them are smarter and talented than you among them.i will easily win race with 100 slow runners in a race than one faster runner.

    • Luke the Duke

      Yeah, but being/not being a diaosi isn’t about personal success, it’s about personal circumstances. Otherwise a second generation who’s got everything they could ever want without having worked a day would be a diaosi.

    • Kai

      “Diaosi” are often characterized as those who have little hope of ever making enough to afford a home, in some ways referring to people with little upward mobility or financial security. I think that’s the aspect that this study sought to focus on, because the term can connote many other things.

      I think the criteria that the person paid for their home by themselves separates the people who got a home for “free” (due to land redevelopment) or whose parents helped them get their home (by buying it for them or subsidizing their mortgage).

      • Don’t Believe the Hype

        There doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with self-deprecating humour, especially if it gives some life / solidarity to your circumstances as compared to others who are similarly suffering. I certainly used a lot of this in the form of sarcasm growing up, tho probably had no right to compared to the burden placed on avg mainlanders.
        I’m more curious as to 1. the significance of the “People’s Daily” commenting on the word –guessing the CCP decided its unharmonious and presents a critical view of life in china but was wondering what you thought and 2.how they came up with the statistics on what provinces/industry sectors are more or less 屌丝. I mean i realize they probably didn’t conduct many interviews, but are they just asking ppl if they feel like a diaosi? .

        • Kai

          I don’t think there’s anything wrong with self-deprecating humor either, but I do recognize the point being made by that People’s Daily editorial.

          1. Not sure if the editorial by itself necessarily means the CCP is suddenly paying attention to the popularization of the “diaosi” label and associated “subculture”. Maybe if we see state media putting out more material suggesting a coordinated propaganda campaign to discourage it, it may mean something. But like you, I can easily see how the government might be concerned with it becoming a buzzword people can rally around and evolve into an actual movement. For now though, I haven’t see enough to suggest that. Have you? It’d be interesting.

          2. The article says they had like 210k respondents? There’s no detailed information I see in the article about the methodology of the survey other than it being conducted by PU and Ganji.

          For example, did the survey seek to confirm self-identification as “diaosi”? Did they ask the person if they consider themselves a “diaosi”? And then asked follow-up questions about their savings and home-ownership to confirm that they met the definition of “diaosi” they were using?

          Or did they have a more general survey where self-identification as “diaosi” wasn’t involved? Where they just collected information about people, and then used their definition for “diaosi” to extract just the data of respondents that match before drawing other conclusions from those peoples’ answers to other questions (like food expenses, money to parents, rent, etc.)

          I’m guessing it was more like the former than the latter, so the study itself may suffer from self-selection bias too, but that lends it credibility as a study that is actually about “diaosi”. The latter would be identifying a demographic from a larger pool and simply labeling that demographic “diaosi”. The spirit of the article suggests the former.

          [Edit: Oops, as Luke the Duke JUST pointed out, the article explicitly said the respondents consider themselves “diaosi”. Therefore, it was indeed self-selecting.]

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            Thanks, very informative! I have also not seen anything else on People’s Daily about this word/self-proclaimed cultural identity but haven’t had much time to look either. Will be interesting to see if anything else comes up, as I think it is an interesting, and very natural, reaction to frustrations of daily life, and has a humour to it that i think attracts a broad young, male audience. Maybe they are the start of a new, alternative sub-culture generation.

          • Kai

            The thing is, “diaosi” has been around for quite some time now. Long term readers of cS may remember seeing it crop up a long time ago. It’s very popular among Chinese netizens and the cool thing was that female netizens picked up on it too. They adapted it to themselves so you’d have girls going around calling themselves 女屌丝. I remember even just dressing a certain way could be called 屌丝. I was never quite sure in what way, and the best I could figure out was a style that was kinda relaxed and perhaps slovenly? Not sure.

            Overall, I’d rank 屌丝 among the most significant things to have spread from Chinese internet culture into real-life Chinese society. Despite initially being a pejorative, it was very quickly coopted by netizens into a self-deprecating humorous badge of pride (like you said, solidarity).

          • mr.wiener

            True, but if you are diaosi you can call yourself that, having some over privileged prick sneer it at you….that might be hard to take.

          • Rick in China

            Or being grouped into “diaosi” category when you feel your life is going along reasonably well, also, may be hard to take. This report indicates that, say, a 22 year old who hasn’t completed university and bought a house in cash – and hasn’t gotten married, or any of the above, is an epic failure. It’s ridiculous – by ridiculous people – and the Peking University people involved in this report need a smack upside the head.

          • Kai

            Oh, absolutely. Do you feel like anyone in the above article is sneering at diaosi? I didn’t get that feeling from the report, but there are some Chinese netizens who have made the same joke because of the average income of diaosi comparison to Beijing’s 2013 average income.

          • ClausRasmussen

            >> Therefore, it was indeed self-selecting

            Maybe I’m nitpicking here, but this is not “self-selecting” but “self-describing”.

            Self-selection is when the respondents choose themselves to be part of the survey. Like in internet surveys that are notoriously unreliable

            Self-described is (or can be) taking a randomly selected part of the population and asking them how they would describe themselves

            Statistically, self-selection is really bad while self-describing can be useful to pin down the definition of a term. In this case they had a definition of diaosi (100K savings and a house) and then compared that to how the term was used by the respondents themselves

          • Rick in China

            I’d be curious how many people on this forum purchased their own house outright in cash, maybe we can have a diaosi survey of our own. :D

          • ClausRasmussen

            Haha… we’re all losers then

          • Kai

            Hah, you think people would go for it? Advertisers would salivate over it, but if all goes well, that won’t be an issue soon, and we as members of the community can just be amused by what we as a community look like collectively.

          • Kai

            Oops, you’re absolutely right. They had 210k respondents and only 62% described themselves as diaosi. That would mean they administered the survey without limiting respondents to people who self-identified as diaosi.

            So it sounds like they collected a bunch of responses and had at least one question asking the respondent if they consider themselves diaosi. Then they sorted out all the respondents who consider themselves diaosi.

            A question then: did they sort out the people who consider themselves diaosi but didn’t meet PU’s arbitrary definition of not having 100k in savings, paying for their house in full, etc.? Or did they identify those who consider themselves diaosi as those who didn’t have 100k in savings and aren’t able to pay for their house in full? That difference in methodology would matter.

          • ClausRasmussen

            I find it hard to believe that a full third of randomly chosen participants both had 100K in savings and payed their house in full, so I think they looked at the people who matched their definition and then calculated the percentage that described themselves as diaosi

          • Kai

            Well, it only says a full third DIDN’T self-identify as “diaosi”. It’s unknown whether their findings represent only those who self-identified and met their criteria or if it also includes those who didn’t self-identify but did meet their criteria.

          • ClausRasmussen

            Yes, you’re right. We don’t know how they did it

        • Luke the Duke

          To answer Q2: yes. The report above says this: ‘Among the over 210k people who participated in the questionnaire survey, 62.2% consider themselves diaosi’.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            good catch, sounds like they just straight up asked them and got a yes/no answer. I’m curious if they went further and asked why, but that is neither here nor there

      • Ken Morgan

        Then in this world Diaosi are numerous. As above in the western world house prices are crazy. Job security is non existent (recently I had a company invite me to bid down on a job they were offering expecting me to go below the £16/h limit I have) wages are going down and futures are somewhat uncertain. Social mobility is worse than the 1930s.

        This describes almost all those who came after the boomers. Gen X/Y millennials etc. I don’t think it is coincidence that the crappy 1st world economies for the youth that a lot of people see teaching ESL as a more positive aspect than the zero hours sub min wage jobs which seem to be all many people can get. (Min wage doesn’t exist in the UK as companies simply put the word apprentice or intern in front of a job description or sometimes workscheme employees only which means work but no pay (from the company).

        • Kai

          Yeah, China is hardly the only place in the world where a generation of people are very pessimistic about their futures. It is indeed a pervasive issue among millennials.

          • Zappa Frank

            sincerely that seems strange to me, in all the survey I’ve read about Chinese seemed to be quite optimistic about their future..

          • Rick in China

            The survey says…..

            Pick your targets appropriately! For 5 points.

          • Zappa Frank

            well, you are probably right, especially considering that was a survey of the Chinese government that was saying that Chinese people are happy, optimistic and that 75% of them like the government.

          • Rick in China

            Maybe — but surveys are tricky beasts, it could also be things like how the questions were phrased.. I know the surveys you’re talking about, I think the “happiness” survey was performed by an int’l organisation – not internal to China, and compared around the world. The answers to things like:

            “Do you think the government has done a good job improving the lives of ordinary people?”

            and

            “Are you happy with your life?”

            Can be very different. The first one may be based on relativity — as in, enormous GDP growth, tons of people pulled out of poverty…but the 2nd is less relative, and more subjective from an individual perspective, so while I may answer ‘yes’ to the first, I may answer ‘fuck no, I’m diaosi” to the 2nd.

          • Kai

            It all depends on the survey, and the truth of the matter is that they are, collectively, both optimistic and pessimistic. Sometimes its about which part of the demographic and sometimes its about what aspect of their future or their nation’s future.

          • mr.wiener

            More and more poor people wondering where the things they were promised has good watching vids of fat bastards who have stolen all the pie….I wonder where this is heading?

          • Kai

            Society will inevitably redistribute wealth until a stable equilibirum is reached. Violence is optional.

  • JayJay

    The underclass of the Chinese society… will they ever want to rebel?

    • Xia

      If they get paid for it, sure.

  • Ken Morgan

    Sounds a lot like the debate in the UK. Where the average age of the first time buyer is 39. People shout LOSER! at them but fail to realise the gigantic mill stone of debt around their necks

    • Yeah I recently graduated with a first honors and I can’t even find a job let alone buy a car or a house. Most employers seem to want robots (even in the design industry) so instead I’m focusing on my own startup company.

      • JayJay

        That is the problem. I take it you studied graphic design? If you had done an engineering degree or computer science, or a medical degree, from Oxbridge or a Russell Group Uni, then it will be a lot different.

    • Boris

      People shout loser at first time buyers at 39 in the UK?

      I think it has gotten to the stage where you can’t call anyone loser for not buying their own house in the UK.

      Now, a car, would be a different situation.

      • Ken Morgan

        Cars are incomparable. In the UK 2nd hand cars are dirt cheap, £500 will buy a 6 year old car with 20,000 on the clock. Cars are seen as disposable. The killer is the insurance costs. Even with years of no claims bonus advanced driving certs and a clean licence it still cost me £2000+ a year to insure my car. It’s been driven up relentlessly by the bad stock market and fake insurance claims. I sold my Mazda a few years ago after totting up the running and parking costs and it was eating into £6K a year.

        As a result I ride a motorbike everywhere (CBR6F) as the insurance is only £90 a year and I don’t have to pay for parking. I also loathe being stuck in traffic.In comparison doing the same number of miles costs me about £900 a year. It’s rather more fun too.

        • Boris

          “In the UK 2nd hand cars are dirt cheap, £500 will buy a 6 year old car with 20,000 on the clock.”

          – I have been away from the UK for some time and when I was there last, I didn’t check the prices of cars, but surely you are exaggerating here? If you can provide some sort of proof for this, I’d gladly accept you are stating a fact, but I really find this part of your comment hard to believe.

          • Ken Morgan

            See above, note I didn’t say anything about the cars being mint, but they have MOT (and used to have tax) and could get you from point A to B and are roadworthly/legal.

          • Boris

            I’ve used auto-trader website and could not find a car up to 6 years old with 20k on the clock at £500. All I could find were car rentals.

            I’ve not no issue about 2nd hand cars being cheap in the UK, but you seem to have exaggerated the part I highlighted. The the price, age and the mileage are too low. Now, for this set to be true, at least one of the price, mileage or age would be higher.

            If I am wrong, I am sure you could find something online with someone selling a car that meets such a specification in the UK.

          • Ken Morgan

            Thats strange one of my replies is missing. Believe me or don’t makes little difference. But if you want something cheap auto trader / ebay / dealers are not the places to go for.

            If you want to scrape the bottom of the barrel then insurance buy backs are what you want to be looking for. You are correct that adding a bit of money, having some more miles or a year or two older can vastly increase your selection. For instance gumtree has a £600 car (but says will take 400 min) in Manchester but it has 30 something on it. But it is 2008.

          • Kai

            It’s probably not missing. Once a comments section reaches a certain number of comments, Disqus starts truncating the number of comments it displays at once. This confuses some people, especially when they are revisiting a discussion and it initially appears some comments are missing. You need to scroll to the bottom and click the “load more comments” button until no more will load in order to see every comment. Hope this clears up some confusion.

        • JayJay

          This my friend, is complete Bull… I’ve just been on autotraders with your spec… 0 results…

          Insurance costs are dear, but with no claims bonus discounts, it will be right down after 5 years. I am now paying only £250 a year fully comp.

          • Ken Morgan

            Autotrader is filled with dreamers though. If you watch autotrader long enough you’ll notice the adverts are traps (oh we’ve sold that one but I have this one for a bit more). Or they are reposted forever.
            The reason why 2nd hand cars have no value is few people can be bothered to fix them nor do they want to pay somebody to fix them. Many people cannot even be bothered to change a flat tyre in the UK or don’t even know how to do it.

            On top of this a lot of people simply hire their cars, very few people buy cars outright these days. You see it on TV adverts from only £150 a month etc on hire purchase and choose to hand it back at the end of the agreement.

            Car auctions, hire agreement hand backs, etc suppress the price of good condition cars. The not so good ones have even lower prices. You see the parked up with forsale ones all over and on pistonheads private ads. It won’t be mint it will have dinged panels tons of scratches maybe a cat D or a car C (but certified to go back on the road). But if you’re expecting a super mint condition BMW for £500 you’re sadly mistaken. Most people will walk away from such cars even if the problems are minor. But if you can fix things there is little problem but they are still drivable cars.

            Usable cars which are ugly but need no work to go go for around £1200-£2000

            Insurance varies a lot I live in a cesspool called Notlob high crime, high incidence of rear end shunt fraud means insurance is high. I put something into go compare a few weeks ago as I don’t like to ride in winter anymore. Cheapest quote which came back (10Y NCB) was about £1600. I declined it.

          • Kai

            This calls for a Top Gear used car challenge!

    • JayJay

      Home ownership is already very high in the UK compared to the rest of Europe. In Germany, the norm is to rent, and tenants are better protected, have a more secure tenancy and house prices are lower. The social stigma of not owning a home in the UK mirrors that of China.

      • Ken Morgan

        Germany has lower home ownership because tenants are better protected. In the UK all we have are ASHT assured short hold tenancies which mean you can be booted out with 60 days notice even if you’re a good tenant. There are a couple of scum bag Rachman types who evict if anybody asks for repairs called the Wilsons.

  • Teacher in China

    Alright, Jilin! Way to go! We finally- oh wait….

  • Nilerafter24

    hahaha. I was so expecting that first translated comment that I literally fell off my chair laughing when I saw it. Chinese netizens have made my night again.

  • Xia

    If China’s economy was based on low wages for migrant workers in the last decades, it may transition to being based on low wages for university graduates in the following decades.

    It’s all a number game of supply and demand. More university graduates = oversupply and flooded job market = lower wages.

    • Stefan

      Wages are increasing quickly in China, in tier 1 cities it’s common for people with university degrees to earn more than 10k RMB a month.

      • Zappa Frank

        common? …in shanghai the medium salary is about 4000. considering the prices of the houses…

        • Stefan

          people with university degrees

          • Zappa Frank

            yes, I’m talking about them. known many that live in house at the end of a subway line. sincerely considering the price of the houses in shanghai I think would be really hard for them to buy an apartment (that would be hard even with 10k/month). Above 10k is eventually for people with experience or/and maybe more than a bachelor degree… also from which university is important

          • vincent_t

            I am not quite sure about average, but a fresh grad App developer now cost 15K/month. This is not from any stat report, I am hiring and that is what i’ve seen.

          • Rick in China

            In what city? My company doesn’t pay nearly that much – and hires extremely selectively. Maybe nobody wants to join your co, so you have to pay more to strike interest. :P

          • vincent_t

            15k gross in Shanghai. Should be more or less the same figure for Beijing and Shenzhen. App and Web related developers are in high demand now due to the startup boom in China.

          • Rick in China

            For a fresh grad with no experience?? I’ll ask what we’re paying in SH/BJ/SZ, I really don’t think they shell out that much for *fresh grads* — web/app related devs aren’t anything hard to find by any means.

          • vincent_t

            Fresh grad with no experience would cost about 10K, but fresh grad who hv done some fancy projects would be around 15K.

            “web/app related devs aren’t anything hard to find by any means.”

            No offence, but that statement shows you have no idea in the tech industry and you have no idea what is going on in China now. Lot of foreigners including me (used to) think that China is all about copying and suck big time in innovation. But once you get out the circle of expat friends and local who like to lick expat ass, and look into the Chinese tech startup industry, you will be blown away.

            https://www.techinasia.com/tag/china/

            http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/china-tech-start-up-scene-turning-heads-globally-a-953319.html

            http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/18/technology/china-women-tech/index.html

            Yes 10 years ago they used to copy from US, like taobao (from ebay), tencent (from ICQ), but join some of the startup forum today and look at those projects, I am seeing things on par with Silicon, if not better.

          • RickyBeijing

            I agree and disagree. Innovation can be found, but it is still very much in the minority. 90% of projects are regurgitations of other projects or straight up copies. I work with some guys who make 10-30k with or without a degree, depending on what they do and how well they do it.

            I do agree with “”web/app related devs aren’t anything hard to find by any means.”

            No offence, but that statement shows you have no idea in the tech industry”

          • Rick in China

            NOPE!

            I found out tonight. We don’t pay nearly that, and those I asked think it’s a ridiculous statement.

            I’d rather not mention which company I’m with, but, I can state absolutely clear that……no…….not in Beijing, Shanghai, or Shenzhen, and we have offices at each of those locations do we pay any Angular JS masters straight out of uni anywhere near that, nor anyone with reflexive or mobile OS specific skills, yet we get some of the best. If you really expect to pay 15k/mo out of uni, why the fuck are you hiring in China? They don’t even have a concept of agile.

          • Ken Morgan

            Such stories do happen even in the UK. Guy called Jon went to a low ranked university with a third in history.

            He was hired within 3 weeks of leaving university as business to business sales on 36K now making 76K.

            Certainly a minority though.

          • vincent_t

            It is in Shanghai and Beijing. And they fucking do have a good concept of agile and lean. Yes you may get some of the best but nowadays most of the best are grabbed by Startup giving them high pay and stock option. U are reading the report on your desk and I am in the particular industry talking to companies and having my hand dirty doing hiring. So sure, keep believing in your fucking report.

          • Rick in China

            Ok, care to tell me which university in China teaches anything about Agile?

            I’ll tell you which: none. Zero. New hires from top universities require significant training to be brought up to speed in any good development house. I’m not reading any “reports”, vincent_t, and I have been involved in interviewing and hiring people for more than a decade in this country. However, if you really think new hires are agile masters slash app development powerhouses straight out of university and are worth 15k before proving themselves, then keep throwing money out the window, I couldn’t give a shit.

          • mistertibbs4u

            But the point wasn’t about whether or not you give a shit. The point was whether or not what he was saying was factual, and the only reason I chimed in was because “there was that 15k number again”. Is that some sort of template amount they pay to these guys? Who knows.

            The bottom line is for years, based on relationship alone, many Chinese companies have squandered millions of yuan by making less than stellar decisions and have the resources to do it for years to come.

            The bottom line is while Agile is useful, it’s not a holy grail to only those who implement or understand it will be given the spoils. It also isn’t necessary to make yet another couple of million in this country. You being here for that long, should know at least that much.

          • Rick in China

            I’m not saying anything is a holy grail here – it was just 1 point to identify the fact new grads here don’t have a “way of working”, and need to be brought up to speed – are you telling me the people you hear about getting 15k offers haven’t worked before? They’re new grads? Or as in your examples, they’ve proven themselves to some extent on some sort of project work? There’s a significant difference between the two, no?

          • mistertibbs4u

            Yes, I am in fact the first person they worked for and most haven’t worked for us for more than 6 months. They’re not even doing anything special (minor translation and checking my PHP / Ruby / JSON / Swift code for any mistakes). I personally make it a habit to comb the campus looking for these guys a short time before they graduate.

            My meaning is we don’t even have this tactic to ourselves anymore, as they are being poached before they have a chance to work on anything that would prove substantial to their portfolio or career.

            The code I’m writing is very much public and very base. I am saying this factually. There’s not enough work coming from me to establish a significant difference. But if push came to shove, then yes… 6 months on my team isn’t really “working before”.

            It is possible they are passing some coding interview with flying colors and if they are, well then God bless them.

          • mistertibbs4u

            Amen.

          • mistertibbs4u

            Sorry to tell you that Tencent just hired two of my app guys at 15k per month.

            They also sharked another iOS developer we had for 17k per month to build some news API at one of their subsidiaries. He completed his education at a tier-3 school.

            We THOUGHT we were clever by hiring “fresh out of school” developers, but they were thinking ahead.

            And by the way… not one of the three knows SHIT about Agile.

            YEP!

          • Rick in China

            Poaching employees that have already joined a company and worked in the real world for a bit is far different from hiring straight out of school. I’m not arguing that people get paid in the teens, I’m arguing that newbies who haven’t done shit, are not worth anywhere near that – also, it’s stupid to have a dev house in Shanghai. Our office there is almost all sales/pre-sales.

          • mistertibbs4u

            Again, as much as I like my company, the work they are doing for it isn’t the greatest and latest tech work. The only Swift code we’re generating is minor geolocation scripts and some SQL Lite work. It’s nothing to shake a stick at.

          • donscarletti

            Your developers left because:
            – Your management practices didn’t suit them. You thought you were being agile, they thought you were being arbitrary and disorganised.
            – They did not feel that they were a critical and core part of the team.

          • vincent_t

            People left for money now. We are not arguing if this is right or wrong here but it is what it is now. BAT and the rest of the startups are throwing money to grab & retain any talents available. Nowadays very likely your developers left simply because someone pays much higher, especially from BAT. That’s why this saying become popular now: 防火,防盗,防BAT

          • Zappa Frank

            15k gross salary or net salary? anyway there is of course a big difference according to the request and again also the university is really important. for sure a language degreed from a common university would never see anything like that…

          • donscarletti

            Really?

            The most I’ve paid for a new grad was 7000. That was for a Qinghua graduate that I particularly liked and had another job offer.

            Normally, I don’t like to pay more than 5000. High salary expectations do not correlate to performance.

            Don’t fall for the highball and don’t make the assumption that if someone turns down a job it is because of the salary.

          • Rick in China

            Absolutely in line with what I’m seeing..and the thought process behind it.

          • vincent_t

            I am referring to App developer. salary varies according to the field and also demand and supply. The supply is tight here and everyone is combing campus now. You said 7K? I am quite sure you are not referring to App Developer. Even if it is, trust me, very soon he would be grabbed away by BAT.

          • Dr Sun

            rubbish, you can get a good developer for 2000 a month a outstanding one for 5000, max, there are thousands upon thousands of unemployed IT Grads /workers in China, its the latest loser profession. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese thought this was the best path ( the same in the west), now they all regret it. IT people, are a dim a dozen .
            In Yunnan health care we did in the past employ some foreigners for extremely high salaries 20,000 a month plus, but over the last couple of years we replaced them with more qualified and far better skilled and performing locals,for 1/4 of the price.
            There is no reason to hire foreigners into IT anymore.

          • Probotector

            Perhaps your stats are correct, but you’re being such an arrogant cunt.

            “its the latest loser profession”

            So you look down upon people based on their employment, and by extension their wealth? Why, because you’re a doctor, the pinnacle of a bourgeois profession, so you feel you’re better than everyone else? I thought you said you’re a socialist, so where’s your equality? You’re more like a self-flagellating anti-western hater to me, who mocks anything western in China constantly.

            Look, a person’s job and their wealth does not define them, and as long as it’s a useful occupation that they do honestly, then how are they a loser, for fuck’s sake? Get off your high horse, I said it before to you and I’ll say it again; you’re a nobody, you’re the same as the rest of us, accept it.

          • vincent_t

            1st off, get out of your cocoon and your expat superiority mindset, do your homework before comment.
            1.Alibaba 2014 fresh grad pay: 13K*15 months (and people are complaining of the low pay now)
            Baidu: 15k*14.6months
            Tencent: this i am not sure but should not be far off
            And bear in mind, all these figure are the 1 offered to undergrad who got recruited in campus, not 清北, but also 华五 211 and so on.
            Source: The candidate i hv interviewed, my friends in the BAT and the agent combing the campus for talents.

            2. IT grads is the latest loser profession.
            That shows how much you don’t know what is going on here. So please, go talk to people in the industry and read more news. There is an IT boom here, especially APP industry.

            I am really surprised by how snobbish and ignorant people like you and Rick in China can be, commenting something you don’t know and make it as if you are the SME. But sorry, you can’t be so lucky every time, Mr. Know It All, pfffff.

          • Dr Sun

            done my home work dude, we hired developers for under 5k, so once you join the real world, feel free to post again.

          • vincent_t

            sure, keep making story and live in your cocoon

          • Rick in China

            That’s right. For more senior people – like those with a few years of experience, they should expect to earn around that.. but for newbies right outta university, I don’t imagine many get paid anything close to 10k/month, unless they’re pilots.

        • Teacher in China

          According to this, the average yearly salary is 51,474, which comes to 4289.5 per month, but I don’t see anything stating where these numbers come from.

          Doesn’t seem reasonable to me though. I got some numbers from the BBC for 2013, which apparently came from the Chinese government, that said the urban wage average was 29,547 per year, which comes to 2462/month. Doubt it would have jumped that high, so one of those sources is clearly mistaken….

          • KenjiAd

            It could be a difference between ‘average’ and statistical ‘mean’ or ‘medium.’

            If Bill Gates moved into one of the poorest village, the ‘average’ income of that village would become sky high, while the ‘mean’ and also ‘medium’ would still remain low.

          • Jahar

            congratulations kenji, you nominated yourself to the position of explaining the difference between average income and mean income.

          • da_shan223

            It’s more important to consider the difference between “mean” and “median”. I assume “medium” is a typo and “mean” and “average” are synonyms (with “mean” being the more common word used in statistics).

        • Teacher in China
      • Don’t Believe the Hype

        this is an interesting topic, i did a paper on it once and analyzed it from the perspective of rising export prices and foreign direct investment. The interesting thing was that the high labor supply has kept export prices low, but still some foreign companies are already looking for long-term substitutes in Vietnam and other SE asian countries which still retain low manufacturing wages. But no other country in the developing world can compare with the sheer mass of labor and well-developed logistics of transport as China currently has, so for now things have stayed the same. See here: http://www.economist.com/node/21549956

      • FYIADragoon

        The finance professionals in Lujiazui are the only ones who get over 6k, and Masters Degrees (MSc F obviously) are commonplace there. Walk outside of that area and people are celebrating when they make over 8k after years of work.

        • Stefan

          Engineers with some years of experience can earn around 10k. I’ve met many of them. My friend is also a personal trainer at the gym I’m visiting. She’s 24 and gets 15k a month.

          • hess

            CAN earn around 10k.

          • Stefan

            Have you ever lived in China? Ever been to China?

          • hess

            I lived in Shijiazhuang for two and a half years. Meanwhile you’ve been to China for vacation a few times, right?

          • Stefan

            I’ve lived in China for two years but recently I moved moved back from China. I lived in Shanghai and Beijing and been a lot Shenzhen. Been to most provincial capitals. Half of my friends are Chinese and my girlfriend is Chinese. I’m half Chinese and I can speak Chinese and I know the culture in and out since I partly grew up with it. When I lived in China I were not in any expat or laowai bubble like most foreigner are.

          • hess

            Believe me I were not in any “expat or laowai bubble”, you wont find any in Shijiazhuang. But not that it matters, I highlighted the ‘can’ in your sentence because it is possible to earn 10k a month, but not necessary. Anyway i googled a bit and it seems the salary in shanghai for experienced engineers is indeed what you claimed, my bad. Way more than in Shijiazhuang. Nu lär jag göra mig i ordning och kila innan systemet stänger. Trevlig helg

          • FYIADragoon

            I should have clarified that point: if you are willing to give all of your time without any normal semblance of rest/vacation days, you can crack 13k. PTs make that much because the ones at my gym (WILLS) at least, only have one day off a month. It reminds me of Wall Street IB hours, except for 25% of the pay. My point on over 6k still holds against the engineers, because I mean that as the starting wage. All Chinese in white collar work will eventually pass the 10k mark with years of experience. Financial professionals can break 20k after a decent amount of time.

      • Dr Sun

        in your dreams, maybe

  • Lei Feng’s Hat

    Judging from the sheer number of people clomping along on the streets wearing the ‘perma-scowl’ expression on their face, you’d think the amount of diaosi would be more in the range of 99.9%.

    But, worry not, the Beijing government has long had an advertisement campaign (mostly seen in subway stations) ordering, I mean kindly suggesting to the good citizens to ‘smile more.’

    People should be getting happier any day now…

    • Jahar

      In wuhan we get, “Civilized city, better life.” Too bad they don’t tell people how to act civilized.

      • Zappa Frank

        I’ve just seen the ‘zhongguo meng wo de meng’ but than is not clear what is this meng.. probably to go abroad.

        • Kai

          中国梦,我的梦? 中国梦是我的梦?

          Probably alluding to Xi Jinping’s widely publicized “Chinese Dream” concept.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dream

          • Jahar

            reminds of some kids song i heard, ” i love my family, i love my country, my country is my family” or some such.

      • Dax

        God, I hate Wuhan. I heard you guys got an Ikea, though. Might have to take a day trip to check that out.

        • Jahar

          yeah.. that’s a reason to come to wuhan. shoot me in the fucking face.

          • Dax

            Eh, Ikea, lunch at Subway and dinner at Papa Johns make it worth a 50 kuai train ride.

          • Rick in China

            If you’re eager to get to Ikea, Subway, or Papa Johns – man, I feel bad for you, wherever you live. I have an ikea literally directly across the street from my house – and while I sometimes buy shit there, I really don’t like hanging around there with all the nongs laying around on everything and digging through bins of discounts.

            I do like their super-cheap salmon steaks though.

            That reminds me, I went to pick up something from Ikea just last week! A bathroom thing – while I was getting it from the loading dock place with all the “ANT” people, literally parked 10m away, omw back some maybe 40+ year old bitch ‘fake’ placed an advertisement in the hand-grip door opener latch and I saw her jiggle the handle, try to open the door – had my work bag/etc on the passenger seat. I yelled at her, HEY BITCH GET AWAY FROM MY FUCKING CAR, then called the guards to try to find her (she wandered away into some bushes, no shit). Take care of your shit around Ikea, or anywhere, lots of those kind of little sneak-thieves posing as advertisers I guess.

          • Ale Jandro

            Rick, I read from your comments that you were living in Chengdu. Now I am in Wuhan, is Chengdu better than Wuhan or is another hole in the centre of China? I am considering moving there!

          • Rick in China

            Chengdu is better than Wuhan. Absolutely.

            It’s not a bad place.. my biggest beefs are not that great air quality and lack of ocean. Suggest visiting first, check it out before making a decision…

          • Ale Jandro

            I went there and the only con was the sea (I am from a Spanish coastal city…) but I fell in love with the city!

          • Jahar

            papa john’s in guanggu shut down. I don’t know about the others… where are you anyway? Shiyan? Huangshi?

          • Dax

            Xiangyang.

        • Ale Jandro

          Who does not hate this blackhole full of hubeiren???

      • Kai

        Shanghai had (has?) something similar (even the motto is similar) but there were campaigns to discourage “uncivilized” behaviors and promote “civilized” ones on all sorts of media. Hopefully Wuhan is doing the same and you just haven’t noticed them relative to how much you notice those who haven’t changed their bad habits.

      • Ale Jandro

        You live in Wuhan!!!!!!!!!!! we have foreigners in Wuhan!!!!

    • ClausRasmussen

      >> perma-scowl

      That reminds me of a conversation I had with my Chinese boss. He wanted to know if I enjoyed my stay in Beijing and we also touched the subject of racism. I told him that I hadn’t experienced any, except for a few occasions where I noticed some individuals looking angry at me but then shrugged it of as “they probably always looked like that”. He laughed heartedly as if he knew exactly what I meant, he probably knew the perma-scowl types already :-)

  • Xin Leo Wang

    Some translation on commit is wrong — “全中” means “Bingo” or “All (points) gotten..(I’ve gotten all points mentioned above)” not “All of China”…..

  • Rick in China

    Just in: Peking University report contributors lack logical thinking skills and/or sense.

    Ok. Lets look at this stupid fucking report.

    “Male diaosi are generally between 21-25 years of age; female diaosi are between 26-30 years of age; commonly their level of education is not high”

    What is “high” in this sense – university? BA? So the people who wrote the report all had university degrees by the age of 21?

    “most have gone out [left their hometowns] to find work”

    In Canada, the ones who haven’t left their hometown to find work are typically the ones who are seen as less successful.

    “have yet to find a life partner”

    You’re a loser if you haven’t found a LIFE PARTNER (marriage?) by 21-25? Quite the opposite I’d say. You can’t have a proper life partner until you have a proper life, and by that age, people should still typically be in school, or just starting a fuckin internship.

    and have an average monthly income of 2917.7 yuan.”

    I don’t see any problem with that, at that age, I’d expect people who just graduated to be earning around that for internships – if the internships are paid at all. I think we pay interns only a little more than that at my company. I guess they’re all “diaosi”, even though they’re often extremely intelligent and have a bright future.

    It’s pretty disgusting to have one of the country’s best universities release a report basically mocking the meat of the population who supports the nation’s very existence. Sure, they’re poor – big fucking deal, they weren’t born to mommy & daddy’s with money, or weren’t lucky enough to win the genetic lottery, it’s one thing to make fun of people actively acting like idiots — it’s another to mock almost everyone in a country because they’re struggling to work hard and make enough money to survive when conditions don’t allow for much more.

    • Jahar

      Also, most young people here live with their parents, don’t have to pay for food, utilities, rent. Back home, that’s where most of my pay went. Without those costs, they don’t need a high pay.

      • Kai

        That may be the case for some but I think a lot actually do contribute to their household finances (生活费), so they are paying at least a portion of the food, utilities, rent, etc. That said, living at home still saves a ton of money and that does eventually influence prevailing wages in the market.

    • Kai

      Hrm, I think you might’ve gotten the wrong impression.

      So the people who wrote the report all had university degrees by the age of 21?

      I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. While they don’t specify what is considered a low or high level of education, they’re just reporting that those who self-identified as “diaosi” and met their other criteria commonly had low levels of educational attainment. I’m guessing maybe middle school or high school only.

      In Canada, the ones who haven’t left their hometown to find work are typically the ones who are seen as less successful.

      I don’t know about this, and it wouldn’t be true for plenty of people in the world who live in a major city or metropolitan area that counts as their hometown. For example, my sister hasn’t left LA and she’s not considered unsuccessful. Sure, her technical “hometown” is just a suburb of LA so she technically “left it” but its a difference without distinction.

      I think the sentiment is more that people who haven’t “moved out of their parents’ house” are seen as less successful, or what you’re saying only applies to rural, small town types. Thing is, much of the developed world’s population is clustered in urban cities anyway.

      Also, the significance of this finding by those conducting the survey ties to the persisting Chinese cultural ideal of keeping the family together, of family being in close proximity to take care of each other. China is undergoing urbanization whereas our developed countries have largely already urbanized. So for Chinese people, there’s a lot of people still stuck in the countryside, meaning families are splintering.

      All in all, it just says a lot of people who self-identify as diaosi are migrant workers.

      You’re a loser if you haven’t found a LIFE PARTNER (marriage?) by 21-25? Quite the opposite I’d say.

      Nah, that’s not what they’re saying. They’re just saying a lot of people who self-identify as “diaosi” also report that they’re single. Peking University isn’t calling single people “diaosi”; single people are calling themselves that.

      I don’t see any problem with that, at that age

      Peking U isn’t judging the amount they make either.

      It’s pretty disgusting to have one of the country’s best universities release a report basically mocking the meat of the population who supports the nation’s very existence.

      Pretty sure that’s not how most people are interpreting the report. Some people might think Peking University is silly for conducting a study on the basis of an internet meme, but I don’t think people really think they are mocking anyone. If anything, they are drawing attention to the hardships of “the meat of the population who supports the nation’s very existence”. I don’t think we can fairly accuse PU of mocking anyone.

      • Rick in China

        they’re just reporting that those who self-identified as “diaosi”

        This is the EPITOME of my problem, actually. Who said they are “diaosi”? Every one of the respondants? Or was their “diaosi” status directed by the university’s criteria? If they said “Do you have…. Are you…” etc – then abstracted diaosi status, that’s a very much more asshole-ish statute than saying “Do you think you’re DiaoSi? Do you want to take part in our survey?”

        Come on.

        These assholes didn’t find hundreds of thousands of people who seriously identified as losers. They found people who had a rough life, caught the numbers as university students, found the number of university students who bought their own houses with their own funds (which, universally and unilaterally should be ZERO), and made an arrogant and aggressive publishing making fun of people who work hard for the shit they get in life but don’t get far. FUCK THOSE PEOPLE. Not the hard workers, but the dickface asshole cuntsacks who deserve their faces posted across all blogs and news sites as “don’t fuck these poeple” postcards for women who hold values for basing their careers on looking down upon the many millions who are generally fucked out of an adventurous and experiencing life before they die because of .. well, cuntsacks like these.

        • Kai

          Who said they are “diaosi”?

          Read the article again. They self-identified as “diaosi”. As Luke the Duke pointed out:

          Among the over 210k people who participated in the questionnaire survey, 62.2% consider themselves diaosi,

          The rest of the findings ostensibly reflect trends in that group.

          • Rick in China

            That is very easily obfuscating a reality in words. Once you present a criteria in an article, such as this, then say “do you not own a house, 21 year old?” and if the answer is “yes” – they could be included in this riduculous statistic. Whether they said: “Based on your criteria, I am a diaosi worthless futureless piece of shit with no prospect of a brighter future”, is not clear, so I call hijinks on this whole preposition.

  • FYIADragoon

    Well that’s rough, not sure why they’re pushing the whole relationship angle when most of these guys barely can feed themselves properly on those kinds of wages.

  • monster

    oh, i am such a diaosi!
    no face to go out to shame the party and state.

  • jin

    But usually Chinese parent have a saving account for their children’s future.

    • Xia

      Chinese parents must also think about their own retirement, when there is no social security working out and only one child (in urban areas) to rely on.

  • wnsk

    i am curious about the etymology of this term. the Chinese characters don’t make sense to me–hanging strands? what? or is it just a (poor) phonetic translation of “douche”?

    • shit religion

      Hanging strands, they are stuck, can’t go further maybe?

    • mistertibbs4u

      Back in 2009, most Chinese netizens used a BBC forum from Baidu called “Tieba”. Each board (ba or “吧”) or forum had its own topic. Well, around 2009 the two most famous boards were World of Warcraft ( 魔兽世界吧) and a board for the famous Chinese footballer, Liyi (李毅吧).

      While WoW was famous for fun gaming, Liyi was famous for not being so smart and giving some of the dumbest quotes during his interviews (kind of like George Bush). It became so funny and popular, he actually became a meme, and people would join his board just because it was cool and instead of talk about him, would talk about random stuff.

      The Liyi board (liyi ba or 李毅吧) members started to defend him by calling Liyi “Emperor” (haung di or 皇帝) and calling the Liyi board “Emperor Board” (haung di ba or 皇帝吧). Emperor in Chinese is “Huang Di” so they just started calling his board “Di Ba” (帝吧) or D8 (‘ba’ is 8 in Chinese).

      The greatest board earns the greatest respect and the WoW board felt they were the best. However, the Liyi board was becoming famous with no substance, like a group of Justin Bieber fans. So, the WoW forum members set out to ridicule people who would join such a useless forum.

      At the time of this frustration, the Liyi board was already D吧 and some members were even calling themselves D粉. “Fen” sounds like “fan” in Chinese.. so they were ‘D fans’. However, “fan” in Chinese is 粉丝 (fen si) with 丝 being equivalent to “small piece… a slice of… or plainly, “member of”.

      However, 丝 is not just “members” or “little”… it’s more like “you little” as in “you little bastards”… holding contempt for someone for being insignificant. Kind of like “you little Bieber fans!” So, the WoW members started calling the Liyi board members “D丝” as in “you little stupid D fans”. But it wasn’t hurtful enough, so people started playing with the D part.

      屌 (diao) is the ancient way to say 鸟 (niao) which means bird. Much like in English, bird can also mean “cock”. So in a very subtle and demeaning way, Chinese WoW fans started referring to Liyi fans (people who blindly follow someone just because they’re famous) as “little dickheads” or 屌丝 (diaosi).

      Later, the Chinese netizenry began to hold disdain or contempt for other groups of people, like the newly rich (tuhao) and jerk-off police officers (cheng guan.. #BlackLivesMatter by the way!). However, the group that had the pleasure of becoming permanently associated with the term, were actually the guys who made the term themselves… the gamers, the guys without a great job… the guys who didn’t care about status because honestly they had no opportunity to access it… it was more like “f**k me… I’m a loser”.

      But it was more of a “smart” self-deprecating thing at the time. After the media got hold of it, like many Chinese phrases, they ruined its initial intent and meaning. Then the upper class, who are out of touch with the underground, began using the term in movies and tv shows without knowing the real meaning.

      It’s more of a voluntary claim to having nothing to lose. and is much less of a “loserish” term than it represents today.

      Being a 屌丝 was more akin to being a member of Tyler Durdin’s “Fight Club”… “screw it I’ve got nothing to lose… how can I lose anything, if I’m already a loser”?

      Now it’s a silly shell of it’s fully evolved meaning.

      So while everyone has something to say about the topic… the people who invented it in the first place… tech-saavy, always in the Internet Bar, never holding any extra cash because I don’t have any types… have been pushed completely outside of the conversation.

      And once you realize that, you realize how useless our conversation about the term actually becomes. Just let the people who identify with it use it. Or at least learn to use it correctly.

      Kind of reminds me about that other group of “low” guys… inner city African-Americans who often call each other “nLgga”. We always have a conversation about it, yet we never bother to find out why they use it and its significance in their lives.

      “Nothing to see here… move along folks…”

      By the way, you’re welcome. It took me 25 minutes to compile all of this information from Tieba, Baike and Baidu search engine, and then translate it to English.

      • Kai

        I’ve featured your comment and separately sent you an email. Hope you get it. Cheers.

        • mistertibbs4u

          Thanks! I think we were all dying for an answer ^_^

      • wnsk

        wow very informative hah. thank you very much.

    • sk8erry

      Hanging strands…you are talking about 吊丝 right?It’s actually 屌丝,which literally means pubic hair. As for the origin of this word, check out its wikipedia page: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B1%8C%E4%B8%9D
      It is mostly used as a self-mocking.

  • Jahar

    i think they do that regardless of whether they live there or not. and it still probably works out to be cheaper than living on their own

  • mistertibbs4u

    Diaosi: the word that’s almost as nauseating, annoying and self-demeaning as tu-hao.

    This word is so freaking annoying. You hang out with your Chinese friends, spend anything over 30yuan and all of a sudden you’re a “tu-hao”. Before, it meant newly rich… country wealthy… subtly “money with no class” but now, it simply means “anyone who I feel is doing better than I am”.

    It really needs to come down a few notches on the daily-use meter of many Chinese as it is a term we urban Westerners would call “hatin”

    A: What are you eating today?
    B: Rice and vegetables. How about you?
    A: Guilin niunan mifen (Guilin beef noodles… a mere 10yuan more by the way)
    B: Tuhao!

    I find “tuhao” to be much more annoying than “diaosi” because at least “diaosi” is self-demeaning on all accounts. “Tuhao” expands the self-demeaning to “money shaming” against anyone who spends at least 10 more dollars than you do every day.

    The irony? Some of the people who use this term actually make MORE than you do.

    Go figure.

    • Kai

      Hah, interesting anecdotes. I haven’t really run into that, or at least not so consistently that it becomes annoying. But I do see how it can get annoying if some guy is constantly remarking and possibly insinuating that you’re somehow able to be looser with your money and they may resent you for it.

      • mistertibbs4u

        I totally agree about the money thing. I think people only use it in their inner circles, so that’s why it’s so annoying once you’re in one.

        Like the guy that says “Mei Nv” (pretty girl) every time he sees a pretty girl?

        Four years ago, if you called a girl “mei nv” at a restaurant, bar or the like, you’d be met with a smile and some attention… now, it’s a term that girls literally cringe at whenever they hear it. It also insinuates that you’re a loser, because you still use the term, and possibly you’ve just recently arrived from a smaller town.

        When all’s said and done, I’d say that Chinese Internet slang is one of the fastest evolving colloquial systems on the planet. The problem is most of us digest this slang like two years after it was cool by hearing one of our close friends use it in a manner much less cool that was intended.

        • Kai

          The interesting thing about mei nv and shuai ge was that it ended up being a sort of polite form of address in certain service industries. It caught me by surprise the first time I ran into it a long time ago and I still think it’s rather odd. Instead of genericizing it like I’m sure many local Chinese have, I can’t help but think it comes across as insincere for anyone who isn’t full of themselves about how beautiful or handsome they are.

          Hah, for those in the niches or subcultures where these terms were created or first became regularly used, they definitely look down on the mundanes who adopted it after them, but it’s only when they popularize into the mainstream that their social significance is cemented.

          Did you get my email?

          • mistertibbs4u

            Sure did… just responded now.

  • The luck of the draw. Right place/right time. Where were you born…
    You could be a “superstar”, speak multiple languages, have multiple skills, be a workhorse, but China compensates people on a different scale.

    Minimum Wage in my State is $7.25/hour,(7500 RMB/month) but it is a challenge to find quality (permanent-Long Term) at less than $15/hour+Benefits.

    China has created a huge supply chain and manufacturing base. Will this be compromised if wages rise substantially?
    Even if those wages triple, What country has the systems/people/infrastructure in place to compete with China?
    Will China eventually do what the USA did and rely on internal consumption to maintain increases in wages and standard of living?

  • Xio Gen

    I’m surprised Jilin has the most diaosi. I would think one of the bigger cities like Shanghai, Beijing, or Nanjing would have more by sheer population of shattered dreams.

  • niggaplz

    tfw diaosi

  • niggaplz

    that diaosi feel

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