Shanghai Bund 2014 New Year’s Eve Crowd Trampling Incident

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From Sina Weibo:

@人民日报 [The People’s Daily]: #Shanghai New Year’s Eve Trampling# New Year Tragedy! Trampling Accident Happens at Shanghai Bund During New Year’s Eve, 35 Dead 43 Injured — Around 11:35pm on 2014 December 31, a massive crowding and trampling occurred at the Chen Yi Square on Shanghai’s Bund in Huangpu district. As of 5am, it has resulted in 35 deaths and 43 injured. Most of those injured are students and have already been rushed to the hospital for care. The cause of the accident is currently being investigated. @上海发布 A moment of silence for those lives that will not be entering into the new year. [蜡烛]

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Comments from Sina Weibo:

糖Xiao雨:

The comments are fucking still arguing over whether it is a problem with the Shanghainese population or the non-local population. Ridiculous. Just like how the moment something [negative] happens in certain places, it’s blamed on temporary workers. If it weren’t for the non-local population driving the economy, how could you all be so cocky?

小晖晖不要作死要学习:

Those criticizing 35 and the police, can you use your brains more? Shanghai’s public security is good, there are only so many police, they were all sent out to maintain order, the armed police formed human walls, and they all stood out there for at least six hours. It’s not like there was a regulation that people had to go to the Bund for New Year’s. This kind of stuff are all accidents. Why rush to argue over the reason why? Wouldn’t it be better to remind your friends around you to be mindful of their safety and think more about your emergency response in dangerous situations?

手机用户2911230835:

Who was the one who tossed out the fake USD and caused these deaths? Human flesh it.

闲人旋旋的幸福生活:

The most important thing is why did someone design coupons to look like USD and incite the people’s commotion…? What was a beautiful New Year’s was ruined by the counterfeit USD showered down from a building above. Just how many families, just how many parents, just how many people are crying… We should also reflect on why everyone would become so excited and irrational over the fake USD showered down from the sky…?

BH8AHU:

From personal experience, let me share what to do when encountering similar situations: 1. Avoid going against the tide, as one person or a few simply cannot go against the tide of people. If you go against the tide, you’ll be pushed down, so you should go with the flow, gradually move towards the outside, and once you’re outside and against a building’s wall it becomes much safer; 2. You absolutely must watch your feet, as sewer grating, gutters, bags, and garbage can all cause you to fall and it is very difficult to get back up in a tide of people; 3. If you have multiple people with you, have the strong ones link arms on the outside encircling the weaker ones inside, and move with the tide together.

成米多:

Chen Yi Square, just how sad Chen Yi’s spirit in the sky must be knowing this, thinking of how the number of casualties suffered by our military back when fighting the [Japanese] devils were no more than this.

永随凉风boy:

Sigh, as it is often said, our people’s characters sure is low/poor. I saw a report last year, that when receiving emergency supplies after an earthquake in Japan, the people all conscientiously lined up. I know I’m going to be flamed for saying this but this is precisely the problem. Improving the economy is easy, but remodeling our countrymen’s character is extremely hard. Back when I was in school and studying, Lu Xun liked talking about our countrymen’s deep-rooted bad habits, but those after no longer talked about this issue. Indeed, it was Lu Xun who saw things clearly.

BetterMan圜圜:

@超級夶夶夶儍寶__沈尛姐 Everyone please directly look at her microblog… [leads to a user that was accused of tossing fake USD that allegedly caused the stampede]

人民日报:

#Shanghai New Year’s Eve Trampling# Witness: There Were People Tossing “USD” At The Scene — According to ThePaper, “USD” was thrown around at the time and location of the incident, that “there was money floating down from a building above, with a lot a lot of money sprinkling down, all ‘USD’.” This lasted for “about 3 minutes”. The witness says the place where the money was being thrown was from the top of the Bund 18. These so-called USD were all vouchers for a nightclub that were printed with the design of 100 USD bills.

Kenny红:

The upstairs of the Bund [buildings] are gathering places for the nouveau riche and wealthy yuppies, who imbibe famous wins in the high-end restaurants and bars as they watched the bustling Shanghai nightscape, while the ordinary common people can only brave the cold winds below, just to see the New Year’s countdown. May the departed rest in peace!

The M18 nightclub vouchers with 100 USD design that allegedly incited the trampling incident.

The M18 nightclub vouchers with 100 USD design that allegedly incited the trampling incident.

From Sina Weibo:

@陈宗鹤先生: Shanghai Bund Trampling Accident Video of The Scene — This video from Southern Metropolis is so far the closest one to the scene of the incident available, as well as the one most capable of restoring the truth of the situation at the time. Basically, it had nothing to do with the showering of money [at Bund 18]. I believe the description of the person involved, that the trampling arose from some people wanting to squeeze up to get a better view of the light show and countdown (it was only 15 minutes until the countdown to midnight), while others wanted to come down. There is no conspiracy theory, the only reason for the accident: Too many people.

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The captions:

  1. On the night of 2014 December 31, thousands to tens of thousands of city residents headed to Shanghai’s Bund for the countdown to 2015.
  2. 11:30pm, the crowd has squeezed into a mass.
  3. 11:34pm, someone has fallen down from the crowding at the bottom of the stairs.
  4. 11:40pm, several young people began leading everyone in chanting: Move back! More and more people join in the rallying cry, and the downward flow of people gradually lessens.
  5. 11:50pm, after people at the top of the stairs dispersed a bit and some space was made, people began helping up those who had fallen from top to bottom.
  6. 11:55pm, all those who had fallen but were not injured had gotten up, but those who are all lying on the ground were no longer alive.
  7. As of 5am on 2015 January 1, the accident has caused a total of 35 deaths and 43 injured. The cause of the accident is currently being investigated.

Comments from Sina Weibo:

熙兮Tiana:

“Move back” is probably 2015’s first positive slogan. I’m genuinely moved.

妮蔻119:

It was quite moving seeing the students collectively shouting for people to move back in the video. The people at the scene were also trying their best to help, but the tragedy nevertheless happened.

傅月琳:

Those young people who shouted for people to move back, I truly thank them. If it weren’t for so many people shouting together, who knows how many more people would’ve perished.

水泽节–元宝主子:

Those young guys who shouted to move back are boundlessly virtuous.

北京厨子小号:

Video of the scene has arrived, and it has fuck all to do with the scattering of money. In such a noisy scene, with all the screaming girls, can you discern which are screams of excitement and which are screams of sadness? I thank those guys who yelled for everyone to move back. They averted an even bigger disaster.

莲峰警长:

If it weren’t for those few young guys in the video chanting “move back”, I believe the number of casualties would be even higher.

甲状腺依旧亢奋:

This video also refutes the accusation that there weren’t any police at the scene at the time.

顾顾顾顾Gux:

Regardless of what the truth is, those guys who spontaneously shouted for everyone to move back truly is touching.

将减肥进行到底OMG:

Move back… a moving example of positive energy.

蛇精病Zooooo:

I’m touched by those young people shouting move back.

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This story remains the #1 trending topic and #hashtag# on Chinese microblogging social network Sina Weibo, read/viewed over 640 million times at time of translation…

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From Sina Weibo:

#Shanghai Bund Trampling Accident#

Introduction: On the early morning of the 1st, a trampling accident occurred during the New Year’s festivities at the Bund in Shanghai, resulting in 36 deaths, 25 of whom were female, and 48 injured. After the accident occurred, people nearby spontaneously linked hands and arms to block the tide of people, to give space to the injured and open a path for ambulances. All of Shanghai’s New Year’s festivities for the 1st have been canceled. Shanghai police circulate that the “trampling caused by USD being thrown into the air” story that was spread were actually vouchers, did not cause the crowding, and moreover happened after the trampling incident.

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  • Paul Shanahan

    RIP to the fallen.

    Can we, just for once, not let this descend into a Chinese-bashing, foreigner-bashing thread. There is a time and place for that and this really isn’t it. We had the Hillsborough disaster just 25 years ago in the UK and I remember it well.

    Very tragic.

    • Rick in China

      just 25 years ago

      Fuck off. Don’t dictate how the thread goes Paul Shanahan, this is a forum for people to chatter and hold discussion and bash freely.

      • Paul Shanahan

        I’m not trying to.

        But I don’t think it reflects particularly well on the expat community in China if we can’t have a moment to respect the dignity of those who have died. We have had our own similar tragedies – that’s all I am saying.

        • Rick in China

          This isn’t the place to “RIP” and stay silent. This is a place to discuss the reasons and suppositions around the tragedy. Nobody will deny it’s a tragedy. Lots of people died. Lots… and for ridiculous reasons I’m sure. However, if you want to try to squelch comments by essentially saying “only give your regards.” You surely realize that 1) many articles here which have created interesting and deep conservations started with a posting about a serious aggressive and intentional tragedy, and 2) the purpose of a forum is not for mourning but for acknowledging the world around us and in which we live and to discuss and understand it better….. yet you deem this the article to state a bullshit “RIP only, please.” sofa post. So many articles involving much grosser acts of death – murder, rapemurder, theftmurder, whatever….death. This was an incident that seems like nobody was particularly attempting to CREATE death, but death happened – it’s far more of an accident than many such articles.

          EDIT: Oh and also, as for the “dignity” of those who died, while I don’t want to make gross assumptions I will because I’m an asshole and through conversation with my wife we reached the same conclusions (maybe she’s an asshole too), this absolutely expectable situation given the circumstance of people who go to these type of events and cause these type of problems (ie buy beatsticks and sprayfoam and intentionally go into massive crowds to probably cause shit) the victims were also, more than likely, involved at the heart of the scene, and it’s very unlikely upstanding citizens just out to have a good night without causing trouble were in the centre of the millions of people event. Should you believe otherwise and automatically state that everyone who died demands respect, I’d say that perhaps that’s not the case, and while it’s a pretty shitty thing to say, there’s a good chance that many who died or who were injured in this mess were at the heart of the starting of the given mess, and if that happens to be the case, good fucking riddance.

          • Paul Shanahan

            “2) the purpose of a forum is not for mourning but for acknowledging the
            world around us and in which we live and to discuss and understand it
            better”

            I agree. I am not trying to be mawkishly sentimental, nor was my first comment aimed at your first comment (they were both posted around the same time). But I think it does deserve a bit of sympathy and sensitivity and any one of us could have been among the 36 (I’m sure I am not the only one who had considered spending New Year’s Eve on the Bund).

          • Rick in China

            There’s a difference between going somewhere popular and getting involved in a fucked up situation. If you’ve been in China longer than a hooker’s queef you’d quickly realize that when crowds in enormity gather it’s a good idea to get on the rim of the crowds, because shit happens, and when shit happens, unless you’re a shit starter, you don’t want to be in the shit. Thanks.

          • Paul Shanahan

            “there’s a good chance that many who died or who were injured in this mess were at the heart of the starting of the given mess”

            Now I know you’re just here to troll.

            What about, say, the various concertgoers who have been crushed to death at festivals/big shows in the US and Europe? Are we to assume that some of them were guilty or deserved it in some way?

          • Rick in China

            I really don’t see how that’s trolling at all.

          • Paul Shanahan

            It is a presumption of guilt (aren’t we, generally, above that?) based on nothing more than your odd experience with some Chinese people. And what seems to be a bizarre assertion that people who go “to these types of events” (New Year Celebrations of the kind that were happening in most major cities around the world?) deserve something bad to happen to them.

            If that isn’t good old trolling I don’t know what it is. Maybe just plain stupidity.

          • Rick in China

            Sorry, Paul, how many similar events as to that in question have you personally experienced in China? How long have you been here? How, exactly, do you proclaim that other’s presumptions are not based on such experiences, but rather, suppose to tell others how to comment on a forum discussing the topic?

          • Paul Shanahan

            In China five years. I have done New Years Eve on Hong Kong waterfront, which admittedly is probably better organised and controlled than in Shanghai, and have been travelling and at busy places on the Mainland during holidays plenty of times. Not experienced any of these weird foam spray incidents you’re talking about, despite going to nightclubs, KTVs etc. I have spent most of my time in HK, Beijing and Shanghai, though. Maybe things are different in the ‘interior’, if that’s where you are, I don’t know.

            Isn’t the presumption of innocence until we have some more information just a given? A cornerstone of our respective societies and legal systems? Frankly, I would be extremely surprised if many (if any) of the 36 who got crushed to death were culpable in any way.

          • Rick in China

            Oh, my friend. I would like to exemplify exactly what I said and what you’ve said.

            You’ve been in China 5 years…no new goat.

            You’ve not experienced “weird foam spray incidents”. But, you’ve been to ‘nightclubs’ and ‘KTV’s, etc…

            I’d evaluate your China experience as nil. A foreign cunt who lived in an expat/central area and has NO IDEA how things really happen. Ok, so in all your great amazing 5 years your experience, relatively, of the day, is “I have done New Years Eve on Hong Kong waterfront” and you really want anyone to expect your words to sway some sentiment?

            Your lil happy experience on HK waterfront gives insight into situations on Shianghai Bund? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHShit I need to change my pants.

          • Paul Shanahan

            You seem quite angry, Rick.

            Bad China day?

          • Rick in China

            GREAT Day my friend.

            Also not currently in China.

            I’l be back soon to suck the fumes and plan my family’s escape.

          • Paul Shanahan

            Good for you.

            Sounds like you’ve had your fill of the place, and people.

            God speed (not that I am religious).

          • Rick in China

            ‘and people’ – are part of my life.

            I want to take that part with me, nil, I must take my family with me, hence the lack of ease when departing a place where business monetary and social ties exist.

            If I were a single man with personal business interests in terms of personal growth and position, maybe I’d suck it up – likely I’d suck it up, but if you’ve a child, you’ll very quickly (I’d hope) change your tune, and in terms of this particular thread, reflect, and every time you take the side of tyranny and destruction (from environmental/social perspective inclusive) please, take heed, because one day….should you be lucky, you’ll change your tune.

          • Paul Shanahan

            I don’t see where I have taken “the side of tyranny and destruction”. I did suggest not treating anyone as guilty parties (which is a reasonable position) until we really know what went on. Information is scant. Maybe some more illuminating video or accounts from the tragedy will emerge. Hopefully it does and provides some closure and some lessons about how this sort of thing can be avoided. I would hope we just want the same things. Whether that will happen, of course, may be unlikely.

          • mr.wiener

            Rick in your case I’m reminded of some of those strange fish that live deep in the depths of the ocean under tremendous pressure. Occasionally they send down one of the bathescope thingies and they collect some of the fish, and as they rise up to the surface and the pressure gradually eases…they explode.
            Good luck with your move to the Sweden of the Americas. I predict you will either settle down and life will be an endless relief, or you will be back to China within a year…good luck either way my angry friend.

          • Zappa Frank

            I think the spray Rick talked about was maybe something typical of Sichuan. Even here in chongqing for Christmas eve was full of people with spray, plastic hammers to fight eachothers and oddly some masks like for the Venetian carnival… Was really a place not so safe, fights were not rare. Same for the new year. I didn’t see the same things on Shanghai or nantong during Christmas or the new year. Still what happened in Shanghai I don’t think has relation with that

          • Dolph Grunt

            You’re in Chongqing? I was there for Chinese New Year two years ago. Man were there A LOT of drunks! I got shot at by some freaks with fireworks.

            Besides that though, it was a pretty good time. I don’t know what it would be like to live there.

          • Zappa Frank

            actually not bad. People are friendly. Sure is different and less international than Shanghai, you need to speak a bit of Chinese to survive and so on…

          • redgirls

            It has not that much to do with trolling, But you have replied to Paul with a venom in your own post, which his post did not actually deserve.
            We all have days when we cant find any good,. In the words of Jim Morrison “I’ll never wake up in a good mood again.
            I’m tired of these shity boots”….
            But give a thought to these poor souls they may have been sick of their own shity boots…

          • 42

            You Sir, are a very disturbed man, you should take your pills regularly and on time as the prescription says, before doing anything else….

          • takasar1

            you seem to have talent for trolling. i’d ask if you have nothing better to do but….

      • Pharenheit

        You are the worst. At least you have some self awareness and realize your own assholery, you get points for that. But honestly, go suck a t*rd and die.

      • Alex Dương

        Rick, you seem very angry lately. It seems like you’re moving; I can only imagine how much extra stress there is when you move from another country. But there’s no reason to take it out on other people.

        • Rick in China

          When I was about to post it – and reread it – I found it a really amusing phrase, so sent’er up. Not actually ‘angry’, and I’m sure Paul is a perfectly fine person, his intentions noble, but it was worth it for me

      • Apothis

        Did somebody tell you that you were in charge? That would require leadership skills and a level of intelligence that you don’t posses. Please just go back to your unhappy life.

      • Ike

        My God I hope you or your family suffer the same fate that killed these people. Miserable cunt. Double for your wife.

        • Probotector

          That’s got to be the most twattish trolling I’ve ever seen; insighting and wishing for the death of innocents because you don’t like what someone posted on he internet. Now, I’m not agreeing with everything he says, but how does his family deserve that? Grow the hell up.

          • mr.wiener

            Agreed.

      • 42

        Someone put this guy Rick on a leesh, he is barfing like a stray dog with rabies

      • biggj

        ..

        • Rick in China

          No kidding, and it’s AWESOME! In reading the replies I had more laughs than during any movie I can remember recently…

      • 42

        Paul Shanahan have the right and can freely dictate how this thread goes as much as you can freely bash this forum. Bummer huh when freedom of speech doesn’t goes your way and direction, but that’s how freedom of speech works, now suck it up!

    • Matt

      Indeed, I remember this incident occurring in Germany just a few years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster

      Crowds are a bizarre phenomenon, almost “sentient” in the sense that they seem to have a mind of their own, independent of any of their human constituents. Any of us could have been in that crowd (it was a tourist area, after all) and met the same fate.

      • Germandude

        One of the few comments in this article that actually stick with the topic. During the Loveparade in Duisburg, a pretty similar stampede phenomenon occured. Some people panicked close-by a tunnel through which the crowd walked. Reasons unknown. Some people turned and wanted to walk against the stream and made people fall from stairs into the masses which were bottlenecked through the bridge. Then, the panick increased and lead to a stampede with multiple deaths.

        Looking at the Shanghai incident, one can see many similarities. Too many people gathered into too little space. Movement in one direction and an occurance (being the fake money throwing or not) lead to a quick change of direction of an ever increasing group of people. Just imagine the noise and how a message of what has happened in front of you can change and lead to a disaster.

        RIP to the victims.

    • bujiebuke

      People who assume Rick in China is just another expat who’s become cynical and tired of the China life are wrong.

      He is a poster child of a privileged white male who believes that he’s innately superior than any other “race/minority”. People similar to him go off to some poor/underdeveloped country and force the local population to suffer his superiority complex. Not surprisingly, he marries a local women who convinces herself that she is also somehow different and in a mentally twisted way relates to dickyricky.

      People who have been reading Rick in China’s post for some time now, I want you to recognize this “human” garbage in people you may already know in your life. You don’t have to go to China to find these shit smears, look no further than your typical Amurican middle management/old college professor/IT loser/obese engineer to see that they’re married to a Chinese women but curiously rant and rave about how terrible Chinese are. His Chinese wife will also exhibit verbal hostility towards “other Chinese” who are not of her province or are considered “below” her. Look for their feces covered grin as they go on a vitriolic diatribe anything related to Chinese and think back to Rick in China’s posts. Avoid these people and keep them from infesting your personal and professional life at all cost.

      • KamikaziPilot

        Haha, I don’t know Rick well enough to be comfortable judging him in this way but I think you hit the nail on the head in describing a certain segment of the expat population and also those stateside. I definitely have met people like this in real life and the part about hostility against “other Chinese” is especially true. Probably trying to cover up their insecurities by making themselves feel superior to others in any way possible. It’s really sad and most people with any kind of social skills can figure this out.

        • Dr Sun

          you nailed him

        • bujiebuke

          I don’t think we need to have every facet of his life to validate what I wrote, you only need to have read his writings in the past few years in order to understand the type of person he is. Also, he has acknowledged some of what I wrote to be true.

          I think you are correct that most people can figure out the insecurities of angry expats and their mentally distorted Chinese wife. However, do you think most people would hold that against them, as in disavowing friendship or give them a free pass by excusing that sort of behavior as an oddity?

          • KamikaziPilot

            I’ve been reading this forum for about 3, maybe 4 years myself and I’ve seen much worse than Rick. I can think of 3 semi-regular posters offhand who more accurately fit your description. Sometimes he has valid points, but he is combative fairly often. As far as most people holding this characteristic against a couple, well I can’t speak for everyone but I will say that the ones most likely to overlook this disgusting trait would be expats with similar traits and native, naive Chinese people who have no clue as to the racial dynamics of such relationships. As for me it’s a definite deal breaker. They also hate me because I see right through their charade.

        • Probotector

          “Probably trying to cover up their insecurities by making themselves feel superior to others in any way possible.”

          Weird how this is a trait of Chinese and Asian culture in general.

          It’s really sad you don’t have the social skills to figure this out

          • Rick in China

            Haha, glad you caught that! I love the hypocrisy in this thread, I don’t even know where to start posting…. I was going over some of the replies tonight with my buddy while we were waiting on a pool table, laughing hysterically, so many people got so outraged and up in arms — the same group of people as always mind you — and started on so much rants about me. So much vitriol and hatred for me as a (RL)person, while at the same time calling me an angry/sad/etc person or whatever, one of the most awesome threads I can recall in recent history!

          • KamikaziPilot

            Total straw argument. I never said or implied that this wasn’t a trait that was prevalent in Asian culture. In fact, I have posted numerous times that I think the abundance of Chinese nationalism is a way of coping with their inferiority complexes towards foreign elements. Either you never read those posts or you conveniently forgot about them. Also, just because it’s a trait that is prevalent in China, doesn’t take away from bujiebuke’s characterization of the types of couples he’s describing.

        • Rick in China

          I’d like to point out that discerning readers, and/or moderately intelligent people, are able to make the distinction between an actual flesh and blood person – their attributes and personalities – and an online persona which may represent some facet of their views. I do find it super, super amusing to read people like bukake above spout off as if they know something about me – it’s one of the types of posting that make me laugh hardest IRL, when I read the diatribes saying I’m this or that way…it’s aweeeeesome.

          • KamikaziPilot

            I think it goes without saying that someone’s online persona is just a window into their mindset, not a complete picture. Different posters chose to reveal different amounts of information about themselves too. Unless they do know you in real life then it’ll be hard to figure out the differences between your online persona and real life persona. Even in real life, it’s hard to know a person completely unless they’re really close to you. I’d assume online people have less of a filter but might also be more prone to exaggeration to backup their views. All speculation though, as I’ve never met a person I talked to in an online forum in real life, so kind of hard to compare someone’s online persona with their real life persona since I’ve never had the opportunity to do so.

      • takasar1

        personally i dont even think he has ever been to china. he reminds me of a bloated middle age white collar hack who got dumped by some chinese girl, had his chinese-made computer crash on him and then went off to create some alter-ego and fabricate some ‘stories’ for him to rave about behind the safety of a keyboard. people who don’t really believe what they say, but say it regardless to generate controversy, proably the most fun he will have this month….

        gives him someone to talk to i guess, aside from his ‘wife’.

        • Probotector

          Why is the word wife in inverted commas? Are you implying she’s a whore or something because you don’t like someone else’s opinion? As for your assumption, no, you retard, the guy runs a business in Shanghai, or used to. I’m not sure of the nature of the business, but that’s irrelevant. He has a wealthy Chinese wife and a daughter with her. Hardly, the ‘loser’ image you’re guessing at in order to cover your insecurity. Why must every expat who criticises China be labelled this way? Is it to make yo feel better about your own inadequacies?

          • Rick in China

            Chengdu.. it’s amusing, all these people trying to diss my real life without really knowing more than what can be summarised in 2 lines, all because I criticised some shit :D Shows who the really ‘sad’ people are, I suppose!

          • Ale Jandro

            Life goes on…anyway keep up.

          • biggj

            “way she goes man”

          • biggj

            I think he means to say she doesn’t exist….which im sure she does, if you a white guy in china and not come back with a wife or at least chlamydia then you are doing something wrong. :)

          • takasar1

            interesting, your moral compass seems to be slightly faulty, you object to the term “whore” yet you infer that i am mentally backwards/different….. and no, i’m not calling her a whore, i am simply doubting ‘her’ entire existence. of course he does/is, if you can reasonably believe that then you ought to know that you are currently speaking to the grandson of mao, who also happens to be abe lincoln’s descendant, related to the queen and nephew of bernanke. oh, did i mention i am a vietnam veteran ?? the fact of the matter is that i’ve seen expats, i had to work with them for a long time and i’ve seen the broken, dead-broke, dispirited, angry, frustrated types far more often than the happy, wealthy types. going by law of averages here. the only way to properely verify is to see bank details, lifestyle proof and so on, but who in the hell would be sad enough, or care enough, to demand all that. he sounds far more like type A than B. insecurity is it? are you implying that i am a sad, broke, lonely man or something just because you don’t like my opinion? if we’re throwing around that word then why are you so insecure with my opinion? has my astute analysis and ample brainpower laid open your similar insecurities also? have i touched a nerve?

            i visit this site about once a fortnight on average and everytime im here, that douche is going on in the same manner, rarely veering from script, as is his right might i add. likewise, it is my right to tell him how much of a deluded dumbass he is, often talking about shit he knows nothing off. if you want to be his knight in shining and probotect him, by all means, you have the right.

      • Living in china

        The problem is that when Rick and other foreigners move to china, they are coming from a country where drivers actually stop at stop signs. Yield to pedestrians that have right of way. Don’t drive on the sidewalk and honk furiously at the pedestrians who are walking there. Where people wait patiently in line without pushing to the front (even in highly populated cities, so don’t use that excuse). Where people don’t allow their children to piss and shit in the street. Where people don’t scream at each other at the top of their lungs in public places for no reason. And on and on and on we could go.

        Then people like rick travel to other poorer countries with similar population density problems, and notice that their behaviour is far better than mainland Chinese. So pop density isn’t an excuse. Under development isn’t an excuse. Ethnicity isn’t an excuse (Taiwan and HK people behave properly).
        It really is the Chinese mainland CULTURE that is the problem.
        So people like rick vent about the terrible behaviour of mainland chinese people. Makes sense to me.

        • Alex Dương

          The real problem is staying too long in a country you don’t like.

          • Living in china

            I agree with you to a certain extent. Maybe Rick is one of those people staying in China too long as a choice.
            But a lot of people work for a business that asks them to move to China for a few years. Not permanently, just a few years. Those people are making a dramatic sacrifice (dealing with the terrible behaviour of mainland chinese people for a few years in order to climb the ladder at their place of employment).
            For those people, venting about the atrocious behaviours of mainland Chinese people on forums like this is a coping mechanism to help them deal with living in China without losing their minds.
            I personally don’t see it as a big deal. Mainland chinese people DO behave terribly. (Notice I am stressing just MAINLAND Chinese…)
            Mainland Chinese people should be focusing on changing those terrible behaviours as opposed to trying to silent the people that speak the truth about them.

          • Alex Dương

            I have no problems with people venting about bad behavior. I encountered it the last time I visited my grandparents in China. My point is that temporary “dramatic sacrifice” to climb the corporate ladder or not, these people made a VOLUNTARY CHOICE to come from wealthy developed countries like Canada (in Rick’s case) to China. If they cannot tolerate the living conditions, they really should leave. A promotion, for example, isn’t worth living in a place you hate for however many years.

          • Living In china

            I think lots of people would gladly live somewhere they hate for two years for a substantial promotion.
            If venting on a message board helps get them through it, all the power to them. (To a point of course. Racial slurs and other extremes are crossing many lines). If rick really crosses those lines, then I am not defending that behaviour.

          • Alex Dương

            You gave two years as an example. Rick mocked Paul for “only” having lived five years in China, implying that he’s lived in China for even longer. I think at this point, he’s long past where he should’ve left already.

          • Rick in China

            Come now, Alex. Surely you don’t think I am in a position of being unable to tolerate the living conditions. My family has quite fabulous living conditions. We’re leaving primarily due to the pollution and social services issues.

            Complaining about people behaving poorly and being unable to tolerate the living conditions are far different things. I don’t see why I’m expected to shut up and not critique nonsense, or face being labelled an angry sad laowai who needs to leave? That’s kind of amusing to think about – those who put themselves in said positions just show the forum how unreasonable and stupid they are.

          • Alex Dương

            I would absolutely consider pollution / environment to be a part of living conditions. Social services should count too, depending on which exact services you have in mind. And if you find yourself constantly in the midst of “people behaving poorly” in your daily life, once again, that sounds like a part of living conditions to me.

            What are you considering living conditions? Your apartment / home? Car? Clothes?

            I don’t see why I’m expected to shut up and not critique nonsense, or
            face being labelled an angry sad laowai who needs to leave?

            I’m glad you brought up the l-word because I think that is very relevant here. You always hated being called that, and you saw it as racism. But here’s the thing, Rick: did you ever seriously, honestly intend to die of natural causes (e.g. old age) in China? Because if you never intended to do that and always thought about moving elsewhere eventually (i.e. while you’re still relatively young), then while I understand that you did not like being “othered,” are you really surprised that it happened to you?

            How many Chinese people emigrated to Canada, made it their permanent home, and never moved back? Tons. Chinese Canadians make up ~4% of Canada’s population. How many white Canadians, North Americans more generally, or Western Europeans more generally still emigrated to China, made it their permanent home, and never moved back? I have no idea, but there’s no way it’s anywhere close to 4% or even .4%.

            You come from a country where the indigenous people make up ~2% of the population and everybody else is descended from immigrants. My country is the same. Now, you’ve been living in a country that is NOT like that; China isn’t a country of immigrants. And not only is it hard to become a naturalized Chinese citizen, but very few people want to do it anyway.

            So really, are you surprised that you’re “othered” as a 老外 in such a country? You shouldn’t be.

          • Rick in China

            What are you considering living conditions? Your apartment / home? Car? Clothes?

            Material objects of course. We also eat well, have a good circle of people to hang out with and do things with, our apartment is well filtered (air, water) and being inside is fine. We can afford what we need, there’s not a sense of ‘struggle’. I don’t mind much of anything actually and enjoy much in China, I really mostly detest the pollution. The social services thing is because of my concern for baby growing up well – I’d rather her not be exposed to some of the ‘social negatives’ which I can certainly deal with, and taking them as normalcy. I’ll say this again: I wouldn’t be in a hurry to leave if I was single or didn’t have a child, and the reason we’re not already in OZ on LTA is because my wife can’t physically leave the country due to unresolved legal issues.

            RE: the laowai ish. I don’t even get what that part of your rant is attempting to say, so I’ll leave it alone.

          • Alex Dương

            I’ll say this again: I wouldn’t be in a hurry to leave if I was single or didn’t have a child, and the reason we’re not already in OZ on LTA is because my wife can’t physically leave the country due to unresolved legal issues.

            RE: the laowai ish. I don’t even get what that part of your rant is attempting to say, so I’ll leave it alone.

            You hate being called that, but I don’t see how it’s inaccurate unless you seriously, honestly intended to die of old age in China. If living in China was always going to be a temporary thing, why get mad at being called a foreigner?

          • Rick in China

            It’s not so much the use of the word, but often the implied association and intention that goes along with it. It’s often used perfectly harmlessly and I don’t ‘take offense’. But – it’s also often used in a very negative way by people who have no concept of that which they’re commenting about, and to those people, I take offense.

          • Alex Dương

            If you dislike the “implied association and intention,” perhaps you should not thumb your nose at “fucking peasants” the way you do? Of course I am not saying you can’t “call them like it is,” but how are you behaving any differently than these particular people (who call you “laowai” in a “very negative way”) behave towards you?

        • bujiebuke

          I don’t think you’ve been on this site long enough to have read his posts and understand my conclusion.

          You see, your points are all valid when it comes to a a sub-population in China, but to say that is something all Chinese do or tolerate is dishonest. As for Rick, his vitriolic writing has a casual racist undertone that often discredits some valid points he has made in the past. He works/owns a company in China presumably with favorable tax breaks and cheap labor. This is at the expense of the very peasants that he rants and raves about. He literally is a modern day colonial slave master.

          You also bring on the point of population density,a counter- argument many Chinese use when it comes to defending some of these behavior. While I also think this is a weak and indefensible position to take, your comparisons are equally tenuous.

          Show me a country with an equal population density under similar economic development that’s climbed out of a disastrous economic planning that doesn’t have similar social problems.

          What’s left to conclude from your writing is that it’s OK for RIck and others to call all Chinese “a bunch of niggers”.

          Edit
          ——-

          Don’t force me to link endless youtube videos of Americans literally stampeding each other during Black Friday so they can get that 70% discount on their lcd tv.

          • biggj

            “What’s left to conclude from your writing is that it’s OK for RIck and others to call all Chinese “a bunch of niggers”.”

            That’s classic man. haha

          • bujiebuke

            I hope that most people reading my post will understand that my use of the “N” word was not meant to be derogatory towards African Americans, rather trying to make a point of what Rick et al. are really about.

          • biggj

            For sure man, I knew exactly what you meant. Still funny as hell.

            Another thing, I’m no “Dick Tracy” but Living in china and Rick in china I think are the same person? The writing is similar and the use of CAPITALIZED words are the same. Not that I have anything against the guy, If he’s pissed well he’s pissed, If he don’t like china well….I don’t know what to tell ya. But in his defence living in completely different culture for long periods of time get make you testy.

            I’ve stayed in china for over a year in one sitting and at the end of my vacation I was kind of pissed at certain things. I come and go from china all the time, mostly 1 or 2 month stays. And it’s awesome, I love it.Once I leave I end up missing the place. China is actually a great place for a country boy like myself. You just have to keep an open mind and go with it.

            China is kind of like a magic mushroom trip. If you try to fight it, you’re not going to have a good time. If you just appreciate it for what it is and have a open mind….you’ll have a good time and see some weird shit along the way.

          • bujiebuke

            Rick’s MO is to force anyone who disagrees with him to defend a position that they were never arguing about in the first place. I don’t see that with “living” but maybe they are the same… I dunno.

            I agree with you 100% with the rest. I go to China no more than 3 weeks at a time and at the end I always feel relieved to go back to the states. There were times when people on the streets really tested my patients, I got ripped off by a shady tour guide, I’ve been charged the foreign tax plenty of times when I went to buy something and once I thought my life was in danger when some dick decided to trail me for several blocks. Never once did I think that ALL mainlanders behaved this way. There were some genuinely nice aunties – like the time I dropped my wallet on the train and an elderly women picked it up and gave it to me. I swear that is what happened and I was shocked and also happy.

            I think your right on that tourist have to keep an open mind and accept that some things will be fucked… for awhile anyways.

          • Rick in China

            I don’t know why the presumption is I have a terrible life and hate China. It’s quite the opposite really. Because I critique some stupid ChinaSmack stories or specific shithole aspects of the country doesn’t mean anything about either, and people who jump to that sort of conclusion obviously aren’t very smart.

            The primary reasons I’m making an exit plan are: pollution, healthcare, education. They are 3 reasons for my daughter. I like dealing with some of the bullshit sometimes, it makes life interesting, stories to tell etc, but these people who read some sort of critique then go off on a rampage, I hope they’re also just playing and aren’t actually upset…because if they were, and this bled into their personal lives as they seem to think it does with me, that’d be a sad thing indeed and I wish those poor souls better futures. :D

          • biggj

            Yeah I hear ya, China is no place to raise a kid. Not when you have better options. The pollution the kicker for me. Healthcare is not bad if you go to the right place, some hospitals have like a VIP sections to get in fast and see better doctors who speak clear english, mainly tailored to foreigners and rich people.And education..well it would be good for your kid to learn chinese but thats about all.

            Well thats’ just it, you say something bad about china, no wait, a foreigner say something bad about china and the first response is ” He’s a white loser from (name an english speaking country) who cant find a job or a woman and teaches english because that is all he can do and you should just leave” Any time you say something bad about china or chinese people, one way or another this will be brought up. Not that it matters but it’s just funny.

          • Alex Dương

            Any time you say something bad about china or chinese people, one way or another this will be brought up.

            I think it is fair to bring up that for these people, moving to and living in China was a choice that they made as adults voluntarily. We aren’t talking about twelve-year-old kids who are moving with their parents and thus really have no say in the matter.

            Do you feel any sympathy for 20something college grads who moan about their student loans? I don’t, and I think it’s the same thing here: these 20somethings CHOSE to attend an expensive college or university. They weren’t forced to do it. When you make a choice as an adult, you live with any consequences that arise from your choice. Doesn’t mean you can’t complain; you just have to remember that it was your choice.

          • biggj

            But talking about negative things when it come to china or chinese does not mean they hate it or should leave. I talk shit all the time about china and chinese, and I love the place and most of the people lol. But it’s usually things that directly affects me. People on here will talk about kids pissing the street or chinese don’t brush their teeth or something”just examples”.But what I don’t understand is how these things affect you…like a kid pissing in the street will not ruin my day or upset me, If the kid is pissing on my leg, sure I might be pissed about that.A lot of the things people complain about on here has not been affecting them personally in anyway. It’s just might be different than their own country and it outrages them for some reason. And I talk of these things to, but im not outraged by it like some people, Things like that they take personally for some reason and they hate china for it.

            Anyway, back to your response. Sure it’s your choice and you choose your particular path.Most people take the victim mentality like it’s china fault they failed or hate the place. As long as you give an honest effort to change your situation, complaining is not that bad. And I mean mentally these people would be under a lot of stress which might make them sound like dicks.

          • Kai

            But talking about negative things when it come to china or chinese does not mean they hate it or should leave.

            We see this sort of selective critical thinking too often. How often have we seen commenters make presumptions about Chinese people or netizens on the basis of certain complaints (like about foreigners taking their wimmin’)? The same thing is happening to Rick. The same thing is happening when certain people are accused of being “apologists” or denigrated as “liberals”. None of it is logically defensible, so the hypocrisy is widepread in how people are critical about it when they are affected but not when they themselves use it or it is used against people they are not sympathetic to.

            Now, don’t get me wrong, that’s very human and thus “normal”, but it’s something that shouldn’t be lost on people observing all of this.

            There are plenty of people who talk about negative things when it comes to China, but not all of them are seen as hating China or advised to leave. There must be something more to their behavior and speech that is giving others the impression that they hate China and should extricate themselves from a situation they seem to “excessively” (in subjective frequency or intensity) gripe about.

            This doesn’t mean there aren’t people who are too quick to straw-man or pigeonhole others because there are. @bujiebuke:disqus’s speculations about what Rick is like offline is a good example. That’s a stupid thing to do as well and it reflects poorly on the person doing it in its own right.

            We’ve seen a pretty big spectrum of “reasonableness” in those criticizing Rick and those “backing him up”. We need more people observing this fact and less people blindly being partisan.

          • Rick in China

            There must be something more to their behavior and speech that is giving others the impression that they hate China

            Absolutely correct. I sometimes intentionally write combatively. I’d like to think that my points often have a very valid basis, and would they be worded differently, would be more easily accepted by a wider audience – however, there are several people with whom I know will ignore the point at hand and focus on the ‘feeling’ they get, likely out of their own personality faults, get riled up and emotional and flip out in a post as a result.. if taking advantage of that for my own amusement is trolling: guilty. But I think trolling is posting with the sole intention of creating that type of reaction – I don’t do that, I post with the intention of making a point, and the fact it riles up several people I don’t particularly like who seem to completely ignore the point I’m trying to make in their ragesponses against my character is just an amusing side-benefit, not the goal itself. I’m very confident some others, at least, find amusement in many of my posts and the ragesponses that spawn as a result as well..otherwise the most vitriolic of my posts wouldn’t receive any votes, no?

          • Kai

            The people you are thinking of who “focus on the ‘feeling’ they get” are not the only ones who are guilty of this. You are arguably guilty of the same thing, as are many of your “defenders” here, as are many people in general. I already recognized this in bringing up strawmanning and pigeonholing.

            Yes, being conscious of what sets people off and intentionally setting people off for your own amusement is the very definition of “trolling”. Your trolling doesn’t get a pass if you profess to have additional intentions. By exaggerated example, my murder of someone is no longer a murder just because I also wanted to make a political statement.

            Everyone posts with the intention of making a point. That distinction is immaterial.

            You yourself can be accused of making “ragesponses” against other people’s character ignoring their points because you are riled up by something or another they said. Like I said, some self-awareness would go a long way here.

            I understand you find comfort in knowing your deliberately inflammatory behavior has supporters from partisans who share your sentiments and/or prejudices. I personally don’t think pandering to the peanut gallery and getting kudos from the like-minded is an achievement or point to boast about. I care more about WHO is upvoting me than how many upvotes I get. An endorsement from someone I respect is much more reaffirming than one from someone I don’t respect, and if someone I find patently objectionable is upvoting me, I sometimes worry about what I said.

            It is not hard to find people who will enjoy your type of trolling against targets they share your prejudice against. I have a lot of upvotes too. Both of us have a lot of downvotes. These things mean something but not everything. At the end of the day, we have a comment policy and you’ve been violating it. Worse, you’ve abused our leniency and goodwill by repeatedly boasting about it. That’s just not cool.

            Please do not troll your fellow commenters. Please do not consciously say things you know will distract others from whatever point you profess to be making just because it “amuses” you. If the Golden Rule doesn’t work on you, then please just respect that it is not acceptable under this site’s policy. Thank you for your understanding.

          • Rick in China

            You’re so pompous it’s puke-in-mouth worthy, sometimes.

            First of all, I’ll repeat, I don’t post with the goal of riling people up, I’m posting irregardless that my post will rile those particular people up, and it absolutely does amuse me. There’s a difference between that and trolling.

            In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic

            Throwing in a bit of venom in a response that is absolutely on-topic and makes a valid point isn’t what I consider straight up trolling, Kai. You may label it as such and you’re free to do so, but quite frankly, I don’t give much of a shit about that, and if you want to keep ranting on about ‘policy’ – you’re free to do so as a mod, you can take that as far as you wish at your discretion. I, however, will post as long as I have the ability to do so in a manner which I choose. Thus far, I haven’t been the one constantly launching into personal attacks rather than discuss points. You’ll note that almost every one in the gaggle of boxtrolls continually rants on about my family/personal life/whatever with an almost sick obsession….some people may get personally offended, I find amusement in it, at least I admit to it — I’m sure some of them aren’t as stupid as they seem, and aren’t actually all riled up, and actually know what their replies will sow upon the thread, they just don’t admit it — or as you keep repeating, aren’t “self-aware”, and rarely get chastised for it in the same manner as the ‘other side’.

            Your murder analogy is silly and you know it. A more apt one would be when your target is a military base and you drop bombs, if those bombs blow up enemy combatants next door – it wasn’t the goal, but, shit, it’s acceptable collateral damage from the bomber’s perspective. So – I’ve come to drop bombs.

          • Kai

            They crux of trolling is the being conscious of the cause and effect of your speech. You are conscious of it and you have on multiple occassions now boasted that you say things deliberately and intentionally to piss people off. As you say, you’ve come to “drop bombs” and are wed to it. That’s against our comment policy. It is trolling and your conscious disregard for the unnecessary crap it causes simply because you selfishly find it funny is excessively disruptive. You are abusing your fellow commenters and the overall community for your own entertainment. We have to look out for the interests of the larger community.

          • Rick the Banned

            This’ll be my last post, apparently – since throughout this thread I’ve apparently broken Kai’s interpretation of policy and been banned. Oh, what shall I do!

            Good luck with your gaggle of boxtrolls, I’m sure they’ll find someone else to obsess over and personally attack while you do little to nothing to silence that kind of behaviour. May your circle jerk antics continue to bolster your self-agrandaising behaviour.

            – Rick in China the Banned

          • bujiebuke

            Your being overly dramatic now. I received the same finger wagging as you did. Even if you did get kicked, you’ll be back here in a month or so and we both know it.

          • Guang Xiang

            At least they have the sense to back out rather than attempt to save face by saying all your antics were for shits and giggles (a common tactic when backed into a corner).

            Welp, I’ve always thought you were okay till this thread. Probably don’t warrant a ban, but I guess you’re too vocal. I could think of more deserving posters *cough* probotector *cough* but I guess they’re more likely to scurry.

          • bujiebuke

            I really do need to interject here before another one of Rick’s web of lies gets interpreted as truth.

            Rick, you are the one who brings your personal life/family into your posts as a base that your an expert in China or whatever you happen to be trolling at the time. As I am here to discredit you, it’s fair game that I use whatever you wrote in the past. To clarify, when I do bring up your “family” it has always been about your alleged wife’s hugely successful business or that you work/own an IT company. You have used these points as a way to claim expert knowledge. You’ve been forced by me to revise some of your loose claims. That’s far from being considered an “obsession” even in the loosest definition.

          • Teacher in China

            I would have banned you just for using “irregardless”.. ;)

          • jaded

            Bilepukes rant about rick was way off. Complete diarrhea, But I do hate apologists who use the 1.3 billion excuse for behaviour below a beetle.

          • biggj

            But like racism, it sometime only noticed one way. We can tell rick ” if you dont like it here than leave, no one is forcing you here.” Rick’s a white guy in china, so it’s acceptable, If anything rick is the bad guy for making someone say that….now if I said” If you don’t like Canada just leave, no one is forcing you here” to a black or indian or chinese guy…..It’s would be a shit storm. I would be racist and god only knows what else and have white guilt poured all over me.

          • Alex Dương

            Personally, if a Chinese immigrant were bitching about how much the U.S. sucked, how much he hated the people he lived with, then I would tell him “if you don’t like it here, then leave; no one forced you here,” and I would not consider it racist if a white person said the same thing.

          • biggj

            Well to normal, reasonable people sure it’s not but how many people are normal and reasonable? Not the majority. It would almost certainly be taking out of context by a lot of people. It’s gotten to the point where you can’t say anything negative to another race with it being taken as being a ” What? it is because you don’t like________<–"insert race here"…unless it's white than it's ok.

          • Alex Dương

            I see your point. As I mentioned in that Shanxi police article, here in the States, it has recently gotten to the point where every police shooting of a black male is a sign of deeply ingrained racism. Some cases (e.g. Eric Garner, Tamir Rice) are problematic, but there are other cases where the suspects aimed firearms at police officers and people STILL protested.

            So yes, I know what you mean. But even so, that some or even many people use double standards against whites doesn’t mean the statement – if you don’t like it, then leave – can’t be used for whites. If you feel that a 福二代 in Canada is bitching way too much about the country and its people and you honestly feel that if he doesn’t like it, he should leave; then I think it’s OK for people to feel the same way about Rick and others.

          • biggj

            I agree completely agree. If someone is complaining about a country they live in then anyone should be able to suggest to them to leave the place they hate. Makes perfect sense. I guess the race thing is on my mind because everytime I watch the news it just more race bullshit.Which is interesting but it gets old. I’m just overloaded with it now.And it’s making white guilt people act crazy……well crazier.. haha

          • KamikaziPilot

            Where are those pics from and what’s the context? Seems like a photo op to me and it seems silly.

          • biggj

            I googled the thing on the kids shirt and came up with this website.

            http://www.lifelineexpedition.co.uk/

            Seems be a nut job religious group devoted to apologizing for slavery.

          • Zappa Frank

            do they have other camps to apologize to Indians? to apologize for the crusaders?

          • biggj

            I’m sure they do.What a bunch of nut jobs they are. Why should anyone feel guilty and apologize for something they themselves never did. That just fucking retarded.

          • Zappa Frank

            later another camp to apologize to their brains.

          • KamikaziPilot

            Yes retarded but did you remember the killings at Virginia Tech by that Korean guy, well Korean American, he immigrated at a young age. Even S. Korean government officials were saying things like “all Koreans are so sorry”. This group mentality is just ingrained in certain cultures, I don’t know what anyone can do to make them think otherwise.

          • biggj

            Yeah I don’t understand either, I’m not apologizing for anyone else actions, ever. I won’t be a dick about it but im not apologizing for it. Even if that was my son that killed those people I would not apologize. I would feel bad it happened and I would show sympathy to them and try to help them, but im not taking the blame for anothers actions.

          • vincent_t

            the point that you brought up about son killing someone and father would not apologize is an interesting topic.
            Now i don’t know if that is your culture or just yourself, but i am sure in Chinese and East Asia culture, the society will take the parents morally wrong too if the son commits serious crime, as the society thinks that the parents did not educate and up-bring their their kid properly. Which to some extend, I’d quite agree with this concept. Study does show that most of the convicts actually had bad childhood or irresponsible and non-supportive parents. (sorry sir, no link but I am sure you can get the data by just google)

          • biggj

            But my point is you are responsible for your own actions. Bad childhood or not. Some people are just crazy. The parents are not at fault for that. Like people who molest kids or go on some crazy murdering spree I don’t think they were taught that in most cases but still though…..blame should not be placed on the parents. It’s going to be anyway…but for them to apologize for their kids action is kind of crazy. Kind of like a store owner selling a lighter to someone who is legal age and have that person burn a house down and expect the store owner to apologize….hold on…some cases I can see apologizing for your immediate family….or your kids…im some cases…but not for something someone of the same race of nationality did.

          • Zappa Frank

            Also something that we read sometimes here, when a Chinese does something stupid/bad netizens often come out with something like “bring shame on china” and so on. I think it exists in every community in some degree. Is a big version of “what will the neighbor think of us…”

          • KamikaziPilot

            Agree, it exists in every culture to some extent but definitely more prevalent in Asian culture due to collective culture. Also works the other way around, remember all the pride they had when Yao Ming made it to the NBA. One man represented the whole 1.3 billion people country. I can’t imagine the pressure he faced.

          • tomoe723

            It’s not Asian.. it’s human nature. It’s started all the way back to the Jews. It’s tradition in every religion.

          • KamikaziPilot

            It’s cultural, and Asian cultures definitely have more of a collective culture as compared to Western culture, which is more individualist. If an American did something similar in China or Japan to what the VaTech shooter did, you wouldn’t have Americans, and especially American government officials apologizing for what he did just because they shared the same nationality. At least not to the extent Koreans apologized for the VaTech shooter, despite the fact that all he shared was the same racial background as them (he was an American citizen, I think)

          • Zappa Frank

            jews? Why?

          • jaded

            Something oxymoronic, they have a collectivist culture, yet by the same token they’re the most self-centred race on the planet?

          • KamikaziPilot

            Not sure if they’re the MOST self centered race on the planet but I get what you’re saying. Then again, I also believe at least in the West, there are a lot of self-centered people too, but they seem to do a better job at hiding it than Chinese. Also differences in social and economic development definitely plays a role in seemingly only looking out for themselves. I often find myself being appalled at the behavior of the average Chinese person, but then I look at my country (America) and I can’t say we are much better. There are many things I can list about each society that I would consider uncivilized behavior but it’ll be a really long discussion. At the end of the day I try my best to judge each person individually, as hard as that may be.

          • tomoe723

            It’s not retarded, it’s being humble. Your ancestors did so many wrongdoings, and you think it’ll wash away in the next generation? You must be so full of yourself to deny that responsibility. You should try putting yourself on the other end of the stick and see how many generations it’ll take for you to forget the injustice done.

          • biggj

            It does not mean i’m full of myself, I’ll be the first to apologize for something I did…but never for someone else just because we share the same skin color or nationality that happened 100’s of years ago. Now this does not mean I don’t feel bad for what happened. It’s extremely shitty. But for me to apologize for it……would mean I was at fault somehow, and i’m not. I would not defend the actions either or deny it. I would be against it 100 % But i will not be made to think I should have a guilty conscious for something I had no control over or part of.

          • biggj

            So who do you apologize for? Or are you the victim?

          • KamikaziPilot

            If we were all apologizing for everything our ancestors have ever done we’d have no time to live our lives, since we’d spend all our time apologizing, and that goes for all races. More importantly, like Biggie said, how would you be at fault for something you didn’t do or have any part of doing?

          • Kai

            I think most people typically apologize for others as an expression of “we’re not all like that” because on some level, they’re keenly aware that there are people who will associate them to the thing being apologized for. This is the case for the Virginia Tech shootings. It’s the case when a friend apologizing on behalf of another friend in their group.

            What’s key is for the person hearing the apology to implicitly understand that it’s usually an expression of disassociation prompted by the very real phenomenon of unfair association, aka generalizing, and not any actual assumption of personal guilt or culpability.

          • KamikaziPilot

            Yes I realize that but then by apologizing you set a precedent whereas in the future you’d have to apologize for future incidents by people of your same group and if you don’t you could be unfairly associated with them. I’d prefer not to apologize and if I’m unfairly associated with a member of my group who committed a crime, I’d just tell people I’m not guilty of anything since I didn’t have anything to do with it. If people don’t accept that explanation then it’s on them. I know different people have different mindsets but I still wouldn’t apologize out of principle, not to mention it isn’t practical to keep apologizing for things people in your group have done. Also, like you’re implying, I wouldn’t want the person hearing the apology to misinterpret it as an admission of guilt.

          • Kai

            I completely understand your sentiment and position. I’m just trying to present what I think to be very reasonable and human reasons why people do the things they do.

            For the most part, I think people apologize or not depending on context and situation. Part of it is also reading your audience and knowing whether or not such an apology of disassociation would help or hurt them, you, and your own. Generally, these apologies are made with good intentions, though arguably self-serving ones.

            As with anything, so much of it also depends on context and execution, so I don’t think the simple act of having done it necessarily sets a precedent that results in ironclad expectations by others in the future. I like to think most people intuitively understand the limitations and intentions involved. Cheers.

          • jaded

            right on!

          • jaded

            hate morons like that, who upon ascertaining your nationality/background associate you with wrong doings committed by your nationality like your co-responsible!

          • Zappa Frank

            I guess If you own a land your family stole killing the previous owners than maybe you are at fault if you don’t give it back… Is the only thing the I can think in line with her meaning. But even in that case is easy to say, far less to apply..and in the end maybe not even rightful as it may seem

          • KamikaziPilot

            Yes, easy to say but far harder to apply. Besides, land all over the world has been stolen, stolen back, stolen by someone else, etc. Laws change, governments change. At the end of the day a lot of times the “rightful”: owner is just whoever has the power of the current law behind them, or whoever is more powerful, no matter the history.

          • vincent_t

            Did you ever apologize for your ancestor? Or did you ever even bother to find out what you ancestor has did wrong?
            If not, please stop your preaching and go apologize for whatever your ancestors did while I get my popcorn and watch you.

          • Zappa Frank

            do you practice what you preach?

          • takasar1

            i agree entirely with the sentiment. just caught this topic stream and didn’t really know where to interject, lol. caucasians have killed far more caucasions than black people. and black people have killed far more of each other than white people have. not to excuse racism and discrimination but, shit happens, has happened and always will. generational guilt is the dumbest thing i can think off.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHXwY1_n_cY

          • KamikaziPilot

            I saw the website and yeah, they’re nuts. I guess you can really find pictures of anything if you look in the right place. I kind of feel bad for that boy though, hope he doesn’t become mentally unstable later.

          • biggj

            Yah this is the boy today. hahaha

          • Byrnzie28

            Depends what they’re complaining about. Just because you may happen to criticize some backwards, ignorant scumbags with no manners, and no class, in a particular instance, doesn’t mean that you’re ‘complaining about the country’. There’s a big difference. Not too difficult to work out.
            It’s the same as being critical of a government, i.e, the U.S government, and then being told that ‘you hate America’.
            It’s actually fucking retarded.

          • Kai

            Dude… the presumptions people make about you are in the same vein as those you make about others. Everyone is going by what they can see mixed with their own reasonable to unreasonable extrapolations (aka prejudices). Given that, you aren’t very smart either. Some self-awareness would really go a long way here.

            What’s worrisome is that a lot of your subsequent comments express a sort of glee and relish in pissing other people off. A troll is defined by someone who intentionally posts inflammatory things and delights in inflaming others. You’re meeting that definition.

            We’ve been very patient with you because you aren’t always like this and of those who tend to intentionally post inflammatory things for shits and giggles, you at least stick to one name. But lately you’ve been very vocal in proudly declaring how personally satisfying it is to you to intentionally piss your fellow commenters off, and that personal satisfaction is all that is necessary for you to do so. A lot of these people have been assholes making retarded presumptions about you in return, but mind that it is “in return”.

            Our comment policy reads:

            Please be civil, considerate, and respectful towards each other…

            We don’t expect people to adhere to this 100%. We’re lenient. We understand people get emotional and have strong feelings, and we’re fine with letting people express themselves and get the response that’s coming their way. But there is a problem when the behavior becomes persistent and the person responsible is vocally unapologetic about it and expresses delight in it.

            As someone who has repeatedly defended you against some of your critics, I hope you will take this to heart and, moving forward, adjust your online persona and/or behavior on cS accordingly.

          • vincent_t

            Rick, by making comments like this: http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictures/excrement-tanker-explodes-covering-everyone-in-human-waste.html#comment-1762528310
            frequently, I would say you deserve all the presumptions people made on you. Yes i only provided 1 sample, but we both know how you write and I can’t care less to dig out more.
            I am not here to pick on you nor asking for another fight. All I want to say is that, people only know you through your comments here and let’s be honest, quite some of you comments do show lots of anger and deep hatred towards China. I don’t see why people would think of you otherwise.

          • Probotector

            Let’s be PC so you don’t call me racist as well. “THE ‘N’ WORD(!!!)” doesn’t refer to Chinese, as I mentioned before, and it certainly doesn’t just refer to African Americans, you dolt.

          • hess

            Or you know, African Africans.

          • Probotector

            Right, or afro-carribeans/jamaicans/haitians/australian aboriginies/th generations of ethnically black peole who are borin in European and other western countries etc etc. Clearly the guy can’t think further than the riots in Furguson to identify what a black person is.

          • Rick in China

            I refute the fact I said what you ‘quoted’ me as saying, or anything like that, and consider your attempt of character assassination a direct implication of the type of person you are. Good day, Sir!

          • bujiebuke

            I will reply to you here.

            You accuse me writing that you use the N word, this is false. It was the misinterpretation of others, Bigj got it, I don’t understand how you could misread it. You’ve also accused me of writing that you hacked into the accounts of ChinaSmack members. This is also false, in fact I refuted the person who actually did write that about you. This leads me to believe that you prefer arguing with the persona you’ve built in your head rather than me.

            You wrote that I’d rather make personal attacks rather than address “real issues”, this is also false, and also your own calling card. I reserve my vitriol for scum like you and a few others. Otherwise, you can read my pasts posts and find they are reasonable and address the story at hand. As for yourself, we only need to see a few threads down to find you referring to members as monkeys – how is this not a personal attack?

            Obfuscation is your one-trick-pony, when things don’t go your way, you accuse anyone who disagrees with you to defend a position that they never agreed with in the first place.

            I don’t care to go through pages and pages of Chinasmack to show your race-laced tirades. Either you have forgotten what you wrote or you simply won’t acknowledge it. The latter makes you an even worse human being.

            The difference between literal and figurative words are lost on you and a few others here. I’ve already addressed the N word, now I’ll explain why I called you a modern day colonialist. You, Rick, go to China (3rd/2nd world country at the time) for work reasons. You have in the past claimed to own this company (although you’ve been inconsistent about this), therefore it is reasonable to assume that you also hire Chinese. What people don’t appreciate, is that the tax breaks and other incentives that China gives to foreign companies is at the expense of the marginalized population whom you enjoy calling “fucking peasants”. Therefore, calling you a modern day colonialist is very appropriate in this context. Of course, I’m not surprised that you don’t understand this point.

          • biggj

            Man, you should have just said” White trailer trash honkies” instead of “a bunch of niggers”…no one would have batted an eye.

          • Alex Dương

            You mean white nongs, right? xD

          • bujiebuke

            I’ve heard that used on Chinasmack before, but honestly I’ve never heard it coming out of someone’s mouth.

          • biggj

            It doesn’t roll off the tongue as nice as nigger, chink, spic or cracker ass pasty bitch ass mother fucker. hahah

          • bujiebuke

            Your right, but then the effect would be lost. Notice the people who nit on that specific word rather than the context it was used for.

          • Rick in China

            You accuse me writing that you use the N word, this is false.

            Um, “RIck and others to call all Chinese “a bunch of niggers”.” In quotes. Implying I actually say that, or said that.

            You’ve also accused me of writing that you hacked into the accounts of ChinaSmack members.

            Huh? I don’t recall accusing you of saying anything about ‘hacking accounts’ whatsoever. If you did accuse me of that I’d find it amusing, though. Just like I find most of your worthless diatribe amusing, which is why I continue to reply even though it’s nothing more than weak attempts at character assassination and often does nothing to further any valuable conversation.

            You, Rick, go to China (3rd/2nd world country at the time) for work reasons. You have in the past claimed to own this company (although you’ve been inconsistent about this)

            Your worthless presumptions and storybook about what you think, incorrectly, my life is or motivations behind any actions, just goes to show how your whole imagined persona of who I am, and draw that up to rant against without foundation, is ludicrous and invalid. I’ll bite, and clarify these two points though, so maybe you’ll shut up about it: My wife owns 3 businesses. I don’t. I actually do own a company in HK but it’s mostly a shell at this point, worthless. I work for a foreign company in the software industry, that’s it. My wife’s businesses are entirely domestic companies. Perhaps I have referred to “we” when mentioning businesses since we’re married, but your whole ‘tax breaks’ nonsense — no idea where you dreamed that shit up, and no idea why you feel the need to call me, literally, a fucking slaver as a result. Next, you’re presuming I came to China for work reasons. That’s entirely false. I sold my business in Canada many moons ago and came here on a whim – literally to the other side of the world to start an adventure hopscotching my way back home, it just so happens I really enjoyed it here and met someone – so decided to stay, it was only after a year into my China adventure that I decided to look for a “real” job – ie. something in my actual career field, not some random teaching gigs or whatever. So, to clarify, I did not come here for employment, but rather decided to stay and sought employment once I made that decision. Clear? Indulged a little? So, so wrong. Hopefully you begin to realize that, and start to reconsider how you write shit yourself..because it repeatedly just makes you look absolutely foolish, although there are a handful of fools who eat that shit up so maybe it’s the case you get off on garnering their support for railing against the persona that is Rick in China. Keep fuelling my amusement meter if you must though! Rant on.

          • bujiebuke

            You accuse me of “character assassination” and yet up until now you’ve revealed that Rick in China is more of an alter ego rather than the real you. You therefore acknowledge that your feces laden rants in the past were nothing more than childish trolling. How is this character assassination?

            You did in fact accuse me of writing some shit when in fact it was someone else. Regardless of whether you remember it or not, it does not absolve the fact that you are the one who’s created a false persona of me. You either have poor memory or you’re being extremely dishonest right now.

            This whole thing about your business or your wife’s business… I don’t care to flip pages and dig up what you wrote months and months ago. On several occasions you’ve written it as “my IT business, we only hire blah blah blah”. Now your trying to lead us to believe that when you wrote “My” it really referred to your wife’s non-IT business, give me a break.

            I still contend your a modern day colonialist. Large businesses in China draw a great deal of wealth out of the population and give back very little. You admit to being in that upper shit crust and therefore that characterization of you still fits. Even if you continue to hide behind your wife’s business, it does not absolve you of being part of that deplorable PRC social structure.

          • jaded

            haha Rick’s right! your rants are hilarious! Complete anti capitalist, rebel without a clue rubbish! He’ s a member of the PRC social structre? haha I’m laughing as I read this!

          • Surfeit

            They’re racist because you dropped the ‘n bomb’.

            So much smarts.

          • Living in china

            This is the problem though….
            It’s not that when I cross the street, one time out of 100 somebody ignores traffic laws and cuts me off/almost hits me. It’s the VAST majority of the time. It’s not ‘every once in a while’ that someone tries cutting inline in front of me. It’s AT LEAST half the time I get in a line up. It’s not ‘once or twice’ I hear someone screaming into their phone in a public place disrupting everyone around them. It’s numerous times EVERY DAY!!!!
            And what’s worse, I rarely if ever hear Mainland chinese people criticize these behaviours. It’s usually the opposite. They defend them as ‘Chinese behaviours’. I would like to stress again that this is not an ethnic thing. Hk, Taiwan, and Chinese immigrants in other countries DO NOT behave this way, and actually seem quite appalled by mainlanders behaviour.

            And I’ve been to dozens of cities in south east Asia and South America that have huge

          • bujiebuke

            I write this again in case you didn’t read my entire post. What your pointing out are VALID issues and it’s something people need to work on and I’M NOT one of those people who defend them as “Chinese behavior”.

            I also agree that it has nothing to do with ethnicity or race for that matter, not sure why you keep bringing this point up.

            You point to south east asia and south america…

            You either have not read or been to these places or you forgot to finish your thought. South east asian countries are also one of the worst in terms of government corruption and lawlessness. Look at Thailand where the police turn the other way while European pedophiles have their way with children. Do you think talking loudly on the cell phone or jaywalking is worse than condoning pedophilia??

            How about the Philipines where the government embezzles millions in foreign aid for flood victims. I invite you to google rio de janeiro where there are literally floating unidentified human corpses and dead animals literally in the same place as the olympic sailing event is scheduled to be.

            These countries have yet to undergo a society transformation moved by new technology and money, certainly not by the same magnitude.

            Again, your contention that all mainland Chinese have these bad behaviors is false and your comparison to other “south east asia and south american” countries is untrue and irrelevant.

          • Living in china

            We’re comparing china (2nd biggest economy in the world) to some of the poorest countries in the world.
            Of course they have more problems and corruption etc.

            A country not having enough money to properly combat things like child prostitution is a VERY different problem than the majority of mainland chinese behaving in a terribly rude, selfish, and often dangerous manner.
            The problems I outlined above are not mere exceptions of Chinese behaviour. They are the rule. Of course not ALL chinese people behave this way. Just most. And I VERY rarely (if ever) hear mainland chinese people acknowledge these behaviours as a negative.
            They call out foreigners who point out the terrible behaviours, as opposed to reflecting on them and find ways to improve their society.
            It’s very frustrating for foreigners to not only see this terrible behaviour, but to also hear chinese people DEFEND it. If many many mainland chinese people said “yes, we still have some problems and we’re working on them”, I’d have a very different outlook on the situation.

          • KenjiAd

            I was born and raised in Japan, a country where it would be a mortal sin to bother other people in public (like talking loud), not follow the rules/etiquette (crossing the street while the traffic light is red), or just act selfish in general.

            Now after spending three years here in China, I concede that I myself often behave like a typical Chinese person; such as honking people away when I am driving.

            Although the sample size is definitely statistically insignificant (one), my example is consistent with the idea that it is actually not “Chinese mainlanders” who behave badly, but people living here, whatever their cultural background might be, tend to became a bit uncivilized. Not just me. I see “laowais” riding an e-bike, completely ignoring the traffic light all the time.

            Since humans always behave to maximize the cost-benefit balance sheet, one would have to conclude that, at least in the current Chinese society, there is a serious penalty for behaving in a civil manner, the penalty whose extent would outweigh the benefit of behaving properly.

          • Teacher in China

            I have become a crazy-ass jaywalker, that’s for sure.

          • Probotector

            Dude, stop arguing with this prick, you’ll get nowhere. He’s an Anti-Western white liberal of the lowest order. No argument or evidence you present will make him stop defending and apologising for China to his dying breath You seem like a fair-mined guy who’s simply talking about what he sees, without bias.

          • Teacher in China

            One thing I forgot, and you bring it up again here – I have NEVER heard anyone defend those behaviours. Every single Chinese person I have ever met (and that’s a lot after 10 years here) are horribly embarrassed by most or all of these behaviours. Possibly people are defending them to you because you are pointing them out too aggressively or consistently? Or your Chinese friends are just weird….

          • Dolph Grunt

            I don’t think they defend the behavior. I do think they’re rather apathetic to it, though.

          • Teacher in China

            Yeah, I suppose I can get behind that statement to a certain extent. But I think that people here more often have the attitude of “It sucks, but what can I do to change it?” rather than “It sucks, but who cares?”

          • bujiebuke

            Your issue now is that all of the Chinese people you’ve encountered thus far defend bad behavior that you consistently see at the place you live. I’m not surprised that some would defend it, but to say ALL, I would invite you to look back and reflect on that point.

            Even if true, I would offer you an alternative viewpoint. Your Chinese friends whom you have these conversations with may actually agree with you. However, there actual response may reflect on a point of view that a “foreigner shouldn’t tell them what to do”.

          • Jahar

            Criminals are criminals, and they are everywhere. It’s the behavior of people who are not that he is talking about.

          • Teacher in China

            By your own words, you cannot say that these things happen all the time or are characteristic of all Chinese people. If you only get cut “half the time” you get in a line up, then that means half of the time no one does it. If it’s only numerous times that people speak so loudly, how many people does that exclude? Etc, etc., etc. You’re talking about a country with 1.4 billion people – generalizing is ridiculous.

          • Living in china

            Sorry, my last post got cut off by accident.
            I’ve been to dozens of countries in South Asia and South America with huge populations and developing economies. I’m not saying their behaviour is perfect. Nowhere on earth is perfect. But people behave much more politely and orderly than mainland china. They don’t behave terribly and then fall back on lame excuses. They just simply behave better.
            If people like Rick are really using the ‘N’ word and other racial slurs, then I of course don’t condone that.
            But venting about the specific behaviours of Chinese people is a coping mechanism.
            I think mainland chinese should focus on improving this r behaviour, instead of silencing those that correctly criticize them.

          • bujiebuke

            Again my contention is not that he’s venting the observed bad behavior, it’s the racial overtones and acidic language which he often uses to describe all mainlanders.

            I’ve never read him using the N word per se, but he often does describe people as “fucking peasants” in tragic stories even worse than this one or in one example, wrote something similar to “two down, a few more million to go” in a story where a few people died because of a disagreement.

            I don’t want to endlessly debate over which country is more civilized, it’s subjective and pointless at the same time, especially in this context. I’ll just leave it at that.

          • Rick in China

            I’d like to clarify these obvious lies by bukake: I don’t call people ‘n’ words, or other racial slurs – I refer to particular people as ‘fucking peasants’ only in the case that they’re in a news story or whatever and I group them into the uncouth uneducated rude ignorant segment of the population which I deem as deserving the ‘fucking peasants’ monicker, and never refer to any particular race in such a general term..even though I’m sure he has trained his monkey brain into believing that’s the case. I point out problems, and people think I “hate China”, or I complain about people being idiots, and I’m an “angry person” IRL, get used to that kinda bullshit from a select group of 4-5 people on ChinaSmack, I suppose. :D

          • fury

            Not a big deal. I am chinese. Chinese people are much more critical towards themselves then you imagine.We wont be angry about what u blame(if it is true). But dont touch some red-lines(history and politics)

          • Surfeit

            I can’t believe the bashing you have on this page. It’s solely because people disagree with your views, and has nothing to do with your actual character. For Kai to publicly bring you up on comment policy is also a load of cockwash; Your poignant contributions are being completely overlooked.

          • Rick in China

            There’s an unhealthy obsession. You see – I make a point, and while I still hold to my point being a valid one – in this case one along the lines of discussions will flow freely on a forum – this isn’t a remembrance wall.. I do occasionally word it in a way that I know will make the same gaggle of boxtrolls heads’ explode. If that’s me trolling, Kai can define it that way, I don’t care much about that — because pretty much anything I say will result in ‘trolling’ from the perspective of having a few of the boxtrolls rant on and on in response, talking about my wife and family and speculating all sorts of things about me personally.. then, upon pointing out the hypocrisy in what many of those said posters are doing, get a finger wagging and ‘reflect, reflect!’ when in fact I’m perfectly aware of the entirety of the situation and accept it as it is :D

            On we go! Do not go gentle into that good night, rage, rage!

          • Apothis

            A little raging is good, a lot of raging is bad. Stop making excuses for your deep-seeded anger and get some help.

          • hess

            “This is at the expense of the very peasants that he rants and raves about.” I thought he was in IT? Not manufacturing?

          • Rick in China

            That’s correct. I also don’t think “everyone” is a peasant, that’s a ludicrous misrepresentation by bukaki ju. I think people who behave poorly/rudely, are uneducated, ignorant, disgusting, etc — they’re fucking peasants. It has nothing to do with race, and is not entirely based on socioeconomic status however that has some influence.

          • bujiebuke

            He doesn’t need to be in manufacturing to fit that mold. This is a paragraph that I wrote to Rick, I’m pasting it here to respond to you.

            ——
            The difference between literal and figurative words are lost on you and a few others here. I’ve already addressed the N word, now I’ll explain why I called you a modern day colonialist. You, Rick, go to China (3rd/2nd world country at the time) for work reasons. You have in the past claimed to own this company (although you’ve been inconsistent about this), therefore it is reasonable to assume that you also hire Chinese. What people don’t appreciate, is that the tax breaks and other incentives that China gives to foreign companies is at the expense of the marginalized population whom you enjoy calling “fucking peasants”. Therefore, calling you a modern day colonialist is very appropriate in this context. Of course, I’m not surprised that you don’t understand this point.

          • Probotector

            ‘nigger’ refers to black people you dumb, liberal, white-guilt apologist fuck. Here we go with the racism label, so, criticising China is racist but laowai et al is not racist, yeah right. Please, bukaki ju, or whatever the hell your name is, just fuck off with your anti-American, anti-Western vitriol. You’re just as bad as you claim Rick is. Do you get together with you liberal hipster friends and your Chinese ‘friends’ (who probably laugh at you behind your back and to your face) an just rag on expats who don’t tow your line of thinking or whom dare to complain?

            “You see, your points are all valid when it comes to a a sub-population in China, but to say that is something all Chinese do or tolerate is dishonest. ”

            No, liviniginchina’s points refer to events and issues that are omnipresent all over the country, and are tolerated just the same.

            “Show me a country with an equal population density under similar economic development that’s climbed out of a disastrous economic planning that doesn’t have similar social problems.”

            That’s because there doesn’t exist one. India is at a similar level, but they never had to “climb out of a disastrous economic planning”, so your argument is meaningless. As livinginchina mentioned, it is a cultural thing, where selfishness, greed and saving face reign supreme. Also, China’s been developing for over 30 years, that’s longer than I’ve been alive. How long exactly does it to a society to get it’s act together?

            “He literally is a modern day colonial slave master.”

            My God, you’re insane! So Rick keeps slaves? What?? wft is wrong with you? Clearly you are so brainwashed by liberalism that you actually have such thoughts running through your head. Just what is it that you do in China that makes you so self-righteous?

          • hess

            Why would you use liberal as an insult?

          • Probotector

            Because it’s a shameful dishonest ideology.

          • hess

            Either you think more freedom to the individual is shameful and dishonest or you have no idea what liberalism actually is.

          • Rick in China

            bukaki ju

            HAHAHAHA, I’ll keep that one for later! It’s fun to watch that guy crater, I bet he’s cratering IRL – he seems to think everything on here represents the entirety of a person IRL, so I’d be shocked if that wasn’t a projection of the real case with himself… definitely LOLWorthy

          • bujiebuke

            I have abstained from responding to you because I think your a toad, a low life henchman of Rick and a few others. This makes you several magnitudes worse. I say this because you only seem capable of engaging in arguments when others have already paved the way. Otherwise, you hide in the shadows until someone writes something that might agree with.

            Everything that you’ve accused me of being is dead wrong. I am not a liberal, and even if I were, it would not discredit anything that I wrote. Accusing someone of being liberal or conservative because you don’t agree with the argument is a distraction at best. It is a weak counter-argument tactic for people who lack critical thinking skills.

            Your problem isn’t that you’ve only been alive for less than 30 years, it’s that you’ve failed to enrich yourself in knowledge in that time. The Meiji restoration for example took over 40 years to accomplish. Your also demanding a rapid change in social order/behavior which will likely take much longer.

            I feel as I’ve wasted a good deal of text on you. Since you’ve made a point to guess my identity, I will return the favor in kind. British people are known to be intelligent, artful and sophisticated. Look no further for this evidence than by watching the Peep show, sherlock, etc – it’s brilliant stuff. For all that dazzling brilliance, then there are people like you. Where there is light, there are pond scum such as yourself. You are the equivalent hillbilly with your jacked-up teeth low class writing skills.

          • Probotector

            I’m not sure what relevance bringing my nationality into this has to do with anything. “British people are known to be intelligent, artful and sophisticated. Look no further… then there are people like you…” Yeah, thanks for the culture lesson, but that’s true of any nationality, so take your head out your ass.

            I identify you as a liberal because of your line of argumentation and choice of words. Jumping to accuse someone of racism, using words like ‘colonial slave master’ and ‘hillbilly’ and thinking that nigger refers only to African-Americans, indicates that you’re so hung up on white racism, that it’s all you can see, and you can never get passed it, because you’re so brainwashed by the indoctrination of socialist liberalism that is so prevalent in all western nations now, especially your own. Then, you claim I have ‘no critical thinking skills’ and I ‘hide in the shadows’ waiting to jump on some argumentative bandwagon because I’ve ‘failed to enrich myself with knowledge’ and (gotta love this one) ‘jacked-up teeth low class writing skills’. Pot kettle and black come to mind here, since you can’t come up with an argument beyond white racism, making assumptions about others and stereotyping. See my comments to see points and arguments I’ve raised ‘independently’.

            You try so hard to be this social justice warrior, yet your intention isn’t equality, but just to demonise America and other western nations/westerners whenever they say something critical of (in this case) China. This evokes the point about China not getting their act together. China may have made great strides economically in the last 30 years or so, but they’ve made no effort to enforce social development laws that would enrich their society, nor have they tried to educate their people on such things. Don’t tell me, with all the economic resources China has available, that effort can’t be put into this. Yet, there you are again, white knighting for them, because white racism is the only problem n Earth, right? Just stop apologising for them when they’re clearly in the wrong.

            Moreover, you were making grossly outlandish assumptions about the guy, twisting or rejecting reality to concoct some wild scenario in your mind of who Rick is and how he lives his life, so that it fits your narrative of a white racist. Again, these are tropes and characteristics of a socialist, ‘progressive’ liberal westerner who has no other possible line of thinking. The irony, or hypocrisy, depending how you look at it, is that you crusade against (white) racism, yet defend a society(Chinese society) that contains some of the most nonchalant, unrepentant racism, bigotry and xenophobia imaginable. I gotta love your arrogance though; believing that because a person disagrees with you, they MUST, unequivocally MUST be a racist immature dumb ignoramus, because you, bukake, are the true pinnacle and shining light of truth and justice, yes?. Grow the hell up.

          • bujiebuke

            I find it ironic and amusing that your telling me to grow up when the evidence based on your own posts reveals that you are actually the juvenile. You’ve done nothing more than upvote Rick’s posts, occasionally festoon the forum with your one sentence insults against people trying to clarify their position or offer their own point of view. If that’s not childish, then I don’t really know what is.

            I’m not surprised that you think I’m all about white racism, you’ve already pigeonholed me as some liberal apologist contrary to what I’ve posted in the past. If you have read my position in the past, I’m for a change in government, I’m for minority rights, I’m against blatant land grabbing, and I abhor behaviors a sub-population in China exhibit. Not surprisingly, you ignore these posts to try to fit a pre-formed mold in your head about me. This is also childish behavior, and one indicative of a deeper behavioral issue on your part.

            As for Rick specifically, I’ve already explained myself exhaustively elsewhere. My assumptions and accusations against him have been based on his present and previous posts. I have already forced him to admit to being a troll. If you seem to have conveniently missed that fact, I invite you to read it over, or you know, don’t.

            I cannot express myself in words how hard I laugh every time you accuse me of being a “liberal white apologist”. The only rebuke you have to offer is that 1. I’m an apologist of one form or another, and 2. twist my avatar name to your favorite night cap drink.

            I still maintain that your a toady henchmen of Rick and a few others because, well… the evidence based on your posts is there.

          • Rick in China

            You’re only showing how little you actually know. “He literally is a modern day colonial slave master.” — Hm? You don’t have any clue what I do, and I don’t own any businesses – my wife does — as for my company, the salaries are not a whole lot different than they would be in many other places. I love your rants though. You’re so caught up in trying to make me look bad that you make yourself look like a butthurt douchebag piece of shit on a verbal rampage and it’s fantastic to read!

          • BrandeX

            “Chiggers”?

          • jaded

            nongers? Nong Miggers?

        • 42

          This is really utter nonsense, the things you mentioned supposedly happen in China and not in other dense populated countries, is because that China has a bigger population who are uneducated. I don’t believe that in the big modernized cities with people and famillies who are high educated that they let their children poop on streets.

          That’s why democracy wont work in China as of now because for democracy to work you need almost all of your people to have a basic education and wealth.

          The honking of pedestrians is just a safety measure as also like flashing the big light, in prevention that pedestrians walk out on the street suddenly without looking carefully. However this is due to traffic rules and not the people and culture itself. In some western countries its against the law to honk the car without any reason. It’s not because people in the west are well mannered, their behaviour is influenced and steered by the law. If China has a law that says you can honk the car only in emergency situation, than they will follow this rule aswell.

          Education is the key word here my friend.

          Also expats are guests in a foreign country, it is polite to say you adjust to the country you live in, no matter what you are acustomed to, its called respect.

          In a country such dense it is survival of the fittest, hence pushing in front of rows is therefore maybe a logical behaviour and reaction of their inner subconscious mind. You have to have an understanding of the underlying social structure to know why people behave like they do.

          As in this trampling incident in shanghai the fault lies not with the people, the fault lies with authorities and crowd control.

        • Rick in China

          Don’t try to make sense of it Living in china, you see – you’ll outrage the peons who choose to vent anger at me rather than discuss a topic and make good arguments. They’re weak, and will immediately turn on you for attempting to be sensible. Careful!

          • 42

            You seems to have really no sense of idea that people rather vent their anger on you is because of your attitude. In any other circumstances these people can discuss on this forum very fine and in a civil manner. But ofcourse, according to you its probably always somebody else its fault. It’s the world against you! The Kim Jung Un syndrom! Or even worse, you seem to enjoy this attention, therefore you can be classified as a troll and we all took the bait.

          • Rick in China

            I don’t even know why I’m spending any time replying to you. You’re just the newest in the gaggle of boxtrolls making a mission out of trying to jump in on anything I write, it’s the same few people every time.. do you guys gather up and circle jerk while chanting “WE GOT HIM THIS TIME HOHOHO!” or something?

        • Dr Sun

          Lets analyze this and put it in perspective :

          1.”they are coming from a country where drivers actually stop at stop signs. Yield to pedestrians that have right of way”

          lets take the USA as an example ,4,280 pedestrians died in traffic crashes in 2010, a 4% increase from the number reported in 2009. In 2012, 4,743 pedestrians died in traffic crashes — a 6-percent increase from the number reported in 2011. In 2012, 4,743 pedestrians were killed and an estimated 76,000 were injured in traffic crashes in the United States.

          “On average, a pedestrian was killed every two hours and injured every seven minutes in traffic crashes. Fourteen percent of all traffic fatalities and an estimated 3 percent of those injured in traffic crashes were pedestrians” (NHTSA,Traffic Safety Facts: Pedestrians, April 2014)

          2.”Where people wait patiently in line without pushing to the front (even
          in highly populated cities, so don’t use that excuse)”

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xL8rE9DT4g

          3. “Where people don’t allow their children to piss and shit in the street.”

          “In many places, public urination is punishable by fines, though attitudes vary widely by country. It is often more accepted in Europe”

          Relieved in Europe at the Wayback Machine (archived March 20, 2012)

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBqhtctdOE0

          4.”Where people don’t scream at each other at the top of their lungs in public places for no reason”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jOCgKUwXiI

          5. Then people like rick travel to other poorer countries with similar population density problems, and notice that their behaviour is far better than mainland Chinese.

          http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/pictures/6-foreigners-urinate-on-shanghai-freeway-chinese-netizen-reactions.html

      • Probotector

        “privileged white male”? lol we know what propaganda you subscribe to then if you believe that’s a real thing. Go on then, get back to apologising.

        Also, a lot of supposition there for a man and his wife whom you’ve never met.

      • Teacher in China

        Wow, we are giving Rick waaaaaay too much attention here…. My interactions with him since the site began have been mostly positive. He does seem angry sometimes, but hey, he’s human. And if his anger leads him to post some inflammatory stuff sometimes, so what? It gives everyone else something to post about, at least. Lay off the guy already and move on to something more interesting (no offense, Rick).

        • bujiebuke

          I thought it was ridiculous and disingenuous of him to silence Paul for stating something a human being would normally feel after reading this story. He accusing Paul of steering the conversation in one way while ironically trying to steer it in the direction of his own liking.

          What type of person does this?

          • Teacher in China

            And that’s ok. That’s the kind of thing that leads to fruitful discussion (i.e., should we ever just “shut up and respect the dead”, or is everything fair game when we discuss life in China? We didn’t need to turn it into a “Rick: A Life in Disqus Comments” thread…

          • bujiebuke

            Hahaha, I see your point. The thing is, if you continued to read the exchange between Paul and Rick, you’ll notice that Rick was continuously being disparaging and hostile towards Paul for no reason at all. Some people here give him a free pass at calling members “fucking monkey” and other disparaging monikers, but I’m just not one of those.

            I want you to look for something that Rick does when he gets called out in the future. He often back peddles and profess that he was trolling and your just being mean/racist. Look for it.

          • Teacher in China

            Yeah, I scanned it. To be honest, he’s no worse than about 1/3 of the other people on here who tend to get angry and insulted easily and start tossing around swears, insults, and threats. That’s the internet for you.

            I would say that I will look out for Rick’s backpeddling, but I’d be a liar…I just can’t be arsed to care enough about petty online personal attacks. Nothing personal to those that do care or anything. When I’m bored (as I have been the last few days), it fills the time reading them, but I can’t really say I care that much.

        • Dolph Grunt

          No freaking kidding. It’s somewhat entertaining to read at first, but then it starts to get annoying, especially when one of these “war threads” turns into six pages. The Rick obsession seems somewhat unhealthy.

        • Rick in China

          I think it’s hilarious man, please, no need to calm them. It’s a grand source of amusement, only because I know I’m often writing with a grin – and I imagine their (it’s always exactly the same few people…..and they go on, and on, and on) replies are often written with raging scowls…that in of itself feeds me well Yum!

      • Dr Sun

        I think your treating Rick unfairly,you have to remember he is from a country which considers smoking and drinking apar with satanism and that if there 50 people living within a 200 mile radius of you, its a first tier city. He from what i can gather did do a 2 week vacation here once, never got laid and is pissed about that ,later it seems(is alluded to) that he did return with a Filipino wife to set up a sweat shop/slave labour IT business, however I not sure he returned at all.

        • bujiebuke

          Did you read the part where he mentioned that he threw someone down because he got sprayed with water at a KTV? That’s your classic hillbilly response right there. Go off to a country without realizing there’s a celebration going on and when a local tries to get you to partake you beat the shit out of him. What a douche….

          • Dr Sun

            the guy got off lightly, back home rick would have “caped his ass” and everyone else in the room ( men women, children and babies) with a 50+ round volley from his fully auto MAG9, double tapped any wounded with his .50 desert eagle, then pleaded self defense or stand my ground.

        • Kai

          You guys are totally distracting from any valid objections to and criticisms of Rick’s behavior with all of this baseless petty ad hominem. You guys are not going to adapt well to upcoming changes in our moderation policies.

          • Dr Sun

            I look forward to reading and following this new policy.
            Its not going to kept secret is it ?

          • Kai

            No, of course not. We’d like people to be conscious of it, voluntarily adhere to it, and not be surprised by enforcement of it.

          • bujiebuke

            Kai, I read some of your posts and agree with most of your points. My issue with Rick and others is that their posts have a casual racist undertone or at other times, a morbid satisfaction in stories where people tragically died. They never ever acknowledge this fact and will dispute it by calling me a bigot (ironic) or childishly obfuscate the issue by twisting my avatar name. How many times have they “countered” my points by calling me a liberal or China apologist? It seems to me that what define a “China apologist” as anyone who brings up a critical counter argument.

            I invite you to look at his post somewhere here where he back peddles and claims to have actually been trolling all along to get a good laugh. I doubt this was his original intention as he went to great lengths to verbally assault Paul earlier. In any case, it just goes to show the type of person that I’ve characterized him to be is not inaccurate.

            I don’t think I’ve been ever out of line except perhaps when I’m unjustly attacked or someone else is being bullied. Even in such instances, I thought it was appropriate to return an equal amount of fire that they themselves where delivering. One thing I have never done is to make a direct racial slur at anyone. In any case, I will look forward to reading the new policies when they’re made available. My only wish is that the mods continue to maintain neutrality when it comes time to enforcing such policies.

          • Kai

            I empathize with your criticisms, and I think you already know that from reading my comments.

            I do not however thing it is sympathetic for you to go beyond a valid objection into blindly speculating about other aspects of Rick’s life and person trying to pigeonhole him into some sort of negative stereotype. That’s the same thing others are doing by accusing people of being “apologists”.

            That’s the same thing as suggesting that a male Chinese netizen who complains about Chinese women dating foreign men is a skinny virgin with a small dick and bad breath. For all we know, that guy is a fucking Chinese man god with a member the size and length of the Great Wall, and he simply has prejudicial views.

            It is a fallacy to attack a person’s supposed qualities in an effort to dismiss or detract from their expressed view. It’s ad hominem. There is plenty of valid criticism for what Rick or others do, but the moment you go beyond that, trying to escalate it beyond the actual issue, you weaken your position.

            I understand it can be “satisfying” to put down someone in such ways, but while your mistake in doing so doesn’t absolve them of theirs, you nonetheless squandered your moral high ground. People who sympathize with your objection now have to waste time distancing themselves from your excesses.

            Moderators will of course continue to enforce the comment policy fairly and evenly without favoritism or bias to any “side”. As a fellow commenter, I hope you recognize and appreciate that I don’t let my sympathies prevent me from recognizing when someone is doing something indefensible. In this case, I’ve made it very clear to Rick that his intentional trolling and subsequent boasting of it is not acceptable, and I’m making it clear to you that these petty ad hominems aren’t cool either. Thanks for your understanding and support.

          • bujiebuke

            Your absolutely correct in this case, my argument was Ad Hominem. I add that I only reserve such words for people who consistently make deplorable remarks that would not be anywhere near appropriate if they had said the same thing out loud in public. I think it’s one thing to vent their anger and frustration but another to just broadly claim that all 1 billion people in a country do reprehensible these things.

            I have already replied to Rick but I think it’s worth echoing my remark here. He is the one who uses his personal life/family as evidence of whatever he was trolling or arguing at the time. I have always limited my attacks against him to his alleged IT business or his wife’s enterprise. In that scope, I think it’s perfectly fair to use it as a means to discredit him. This may seem like a nuance, but I think it’s absolutely important to distinguish between what I just wrote and something like, “I think your wife is a fat hairy wompa”.

          • Kai

            I understand the distinctions you want to impress upon me or anyone else. The bottom line I hope you still recognize is that there is a difference between criticizing a specific act versus going beyond into making negative speculations about the person as a whole.

          • bujiebuke

            Acknowledged

      • Apothis

        Dead nuts on bujiebuke. You pegged him completely.

      • Zhegezhege

        I’ve been reading your comments and WOW, what a creep you are.

        • bujiebuke

          “I’ve been reading your comments and WOW, what a creep you are.”

          No irony here… none.

      • jaded

        That’s a bit over the top without knowing the man personally. People are more vitriolic online, as indeed you are with that last rant.

    • David

      Well, that only lasted for your comment. The very next comment made the ENTIRE post about other dumb shit stuff.

  • Rick in China

    My wife sent me news of the incident as soon as it was out – and she said something along the lines of, lots of “angry people” who use events like this — and Christmas, to go out and cause shit. You’ll note that at events like this, and Christmas, there are huge crowds who get these blow-up ‘beatsticks’ and foam spray and go out into enormous crowds spraying and beating each-other en-masse. Perhaps a sense of ‘letting out aggression’ under the guise of playful fun for most. When I first arrived in China over a decade ago, my first Chinese X-mas I had experienced this and thought it was FUCKING INSANE. Later, at a Christmas event, at a KTV, left the room to go to the washroom and some guy jumped around a bend and sprayed me with foam — coming from Canada, someone I don’t know in a strange place jumping around a bend and spraying something at me, I had grabbed him and thrown him down like a bundle of sticks (aka thrown a faggot down, by definition). I later had it explained to me that it’s normal fun here.

    The problem is – when the crowds get too large, when the population gets too anonymous, and when there are so many angry young people without any ways to vent out frustrations, shit like this is BOUND to happen. I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more often.

    • Kai

      Did you watch the video above?

      • Rick in China

        Seems that the new info indicates that it was just some weird accident of compressed crowds, but doesn’t negate my point in general :D

        • Kai

          I think what people find questionable is that you had the new info in front of you in this article and yet you seemngly ignored it in order to make your “point”.

          • mistertibbs4u

            Nice burn.

  • This could’ve happened anywhere with large crowds. That’s why didn’t go in front of Taipei 101 this year.

    May the victims RIP.

  • Irvin

    Chinese is like hydra, for every one that dies, another ten takes it’s place. So don’t worry, just the circle of life at work here.

    • Rick in China

      just the circle JERK of life at work here.

      • Irvin

        Or you can think it’s GOD jerking off if you’re the religious type.

    • Balkan

      If your family had been there, I doubt you would be saying what you’re saying.

      • Irvin

        That makes sense, if a bit obvious. Of course I would feel more for people I know than strangers on the street. Not exactly rocket science.

    • Nilerafter24

      It’s very terrible I laughed at this.lol

      But seriously…. too soon. way too soon.

      • Irvin

        This is the internet, nothing is too soon or too late, it arrived exactly when it meant to.

        • 42

          Thats why China censors the internet, now you know, because of doucehbags like you, thanks alot for spoiling it for everyone!

          • Kai

            Irvin keeps his comment history private, but would seeing him make this comment give you a better understanding of him?

          • Irvin

            And here I thought it was because of some people yelling they want to orgy with 10 chinese men.

    • 42

      I rather have ten chinese than one of you. So, good riddence!

      • Irvin

        So you’re into orgy huh? good riddance to your ass, I hope it can take it.

        • biggj

          ..

          • Dr Sun

            “this must be the gayest remark of 2015”

            we are only 4 days in, i’m sure it will get worse

          • guest

            Nice legs

          • Irvin

            42 was one of the survivor and now he’s back for seconds……..or 10th.

        • 42

          this must be the gayest remark of 2015. a case of, afraid to admit it fulfills your sad homosexual fantasies? sure sounds like it. watch out! looks like someone is getting out of the closet, big time!

          • Irvin

            “我要打十个!!” you’re really brave like ipman, challenging 10 at a time. Don’t forget the lub.

  • monster

    wakakaka!
    die in such a way is a huge pity and shame.
    i do not let people get too close to me, it’s a good habit.

    • biggj

      “wakakaka!”

      What is that? a laugh? a wookie cry? Bruce Lee move? Really though, what does that mean? Just curious.

      • bujiebuke

        seriously man?? You’ve never seen the Muppets with Kermit the frog, Miss Piggy, Fozzie Bear and others?

        • biggj

          Sure, but it’s a laugh…why would you laugh? I could be missing some kind of joke,or or some chinese internet thing that mean something different. I’m not smartest guy around…Seems funny one would laugh at this.

          • bujiebuke

            oh… I thought you literally didn’t know what “wakakaka” (it’s really wakawakwak). Yeah I’m not sure where he’s going with that either.

          • Zappa Frank

            Is not a he, is a she, she is Eattot, I think this explain everything

          • bujiebuke

            I had no idea…

          • Boris

            I didn’t read it properly first. I thought it was imitating the Pac-Man sound.

            It made me think the person (called monster here) ate anyone who got close.

  • UserID01

    Man, incidents like these are why I never, ever wanted to be at Times Square when the ball drops or at Rockefeller Center when the tree is lit. Too many people in one small space is just too dangerous for me. I’m not a tall person, so it would be easy for me to be overlooked in a large crowd of people. My condolences to the friends and family of the trampling victims. What terrible news on the new year.

    • biggj

      Your right, and all it would take is something to stupid to cause a stampede, Like if someone yelled “He’s got a gun!!!” or something like that. if you really wanted to cause something liek this, throwing money from a building would be one of the better ways, I don’t think people meant to hurt anyone if it was the fake money that caused it. Imagine if you throw a wads of 100’s off building at any new years gathering…outcome could be the same.

      • UserID01

        You’re totally right. Hell, it doesn’t even have to be that serious, someone could just accidentally step on someone else’s foot and start a fight, and then a bunch of people are brawling. I don’t want to get an inadvertent elbow to the face because some guy twelve feet away stepped on another guy’s foot.

    • Kai

      When I was younger, I might’ve found such crowds exciting and amusing to be in, but at my age, when I see a crowd, I just turn around and head another direction. Can’t be bothered.

      • UserID01

        My former boss told me he went to the New Year’s ball drop back in the 70s, when the crowd wasn’t as frighteningly enormous, and even then he ended up climbing up a lamp post just to see where he could get the hell out. I never, ever want to be in a position like that.

  • MidniteOwl

    A horrible way to die. May they have peace. In birth and death, we are all the same.

  • Angus

    Paul, if you peruse a number of articles on this site, you will be able to view Rick’s decline from a rational individual into a bitter China-hater. As someone who lived in China for over a decade, I can totally empathize with his ire, frustration, and cynicism, yet his views on China must be taken with a pinch of salt, as he is biased to the point of moronicness (is that a word, probably not?) He criticises you for spending the majority of your time in cities not emblematic of his perception of the “real’ China, yet the tragedy referenced is in such a city, so his rhetoric seems irrelevant. Whether there are parties liable for blame is, frankly, irrelevant, and I join you in paying my respects to the people, and their loved ones, affected by this terrible tragedy.

    • Probotector

      morony

  • biggj

    Crowds like that are dangerous. It is a real shame people had to die trying to celebrate new years. Most people who have been to china have probably been to this area. It’s not a very big area…for as many people that were there. There was good chance of something bad happening. Not just shanghai, anywhere in the world famous for new years celebrations. I personally hate being stuck crowds like that. It would be like wanting to get a chinese public transportation like a subway or bus at rush hour to have a good time. It’s probably not going to happen.

  • Foreign Devil

    Hard to comprehend. . even after watching the video. . you just see people packed like sardines and jostling around. . like you would see at any urban concert or average day in the Shanghai metro. I’m not sure why people where pushing forward. . only can think they saw it as a game to push everyone in front of them. . kind of like “mosh pit”.

    • Kai

      This was centered around a flight of stairs. Those below were trying to get to the platform above (Chen Yi Square) while those above were trying to get down. The crowd built up to a size where people on the outer edges are both trapping those in the middle and unable to tell what’s happening in the middle. The steps made it easier for those in the middle to trip and fall over, where they can easily be trampled on because the sudden empty space they leave is quickly compressed. It’s like a denser but less intentionally violent mosh pit.

  • Foreign Devil

    On a related note. .have you guys hard just how many incidents have happened in Chinese schools of kids getting crushed by domino effect in school stairwells? Way too many.

  • Dolph Grunt

    Can’t wait for Shanghai Disneyland!!!

    • Kai

      If the build it bigger than the one in Hong Kong, they MIGHT be able to handle the likely larger capacities (doubt it). The one in Hong Kong is really small.

  • Kai

    I guess you guys have never been involved in such public events and antics. Various places throughout the world hold these sort of activities involving water, tomatoes, etc. It’s enjoyable to most but there’s always a few incidents where some girl feels she’s being groped or someone suddenly no longer thinks its all fun and games and gets angry. One of my earliest memories of these sort of things was Spring Break in Palm Springs and a lot of water guns and Super Soakers. It was pretty amusing except for bits of racism.

  • Kai

    I have no idea if that’s a real thing or not. Supposedly 35 is the “magic number” where any higher and officials must be held responsible, so a lot of incidents cap the deaths at 35. I’ve only heard of it as a rumor and never from any credible source, and the fact that the death toll was eventually updated to 36 kinda casts more doubt on it.

  • Amused

    And now on a page about people getting stomped to death by close friends and strangers…
    Without further ado, ladies and gents, children of all ages, we present to you a DEATHMATCH!!! “The Chinese Apologist Men” shall do battle most deadly with the dreaded “Been-Too-Long-In-Foreign-Country-Most-Irate Men”!!! 12 rounds of pugilistic magnificence the likes of which you’ve never seen(or maybe you have, but shut up and I’ll mail you a dollar)!!!
    Let’s get ready to RUUUUUMBLE!!!!!

    • mr.wiener

      Save me a ringside seat :)

    • Rick in China

      Hope I caused you as much amusement as I caused myself ;) riled the gaggle of boxtrolls up RILL good.

  • 42

    Disgusting that some commentators on this forum even dare to blame this incident on the people in the crowd who are just trying to have some fun on a new years eve day.

    The fault of this trampling incident in shanghai lies not with the people, the fault lies with the authorities and proper crowd control.

    • Probotector

      “The fault lies with the authorities and proper crowd control”

      How so? Can’t people control themselves, to an extent? What do you want? horse mounted militia men in riot gear with batons knocking people down? A crowd of this magnitude, in a country where pushing and shoving and a lack of regard for safety is common practice, will not be static and peaceful, and it is tragic that people died, but don’t tell me that no one in the crowd was to blame for this happening, please.

      • 42

        Hongkong which is another chinese place have smaller streets and thus denser population, but have superb crowd control. These situations happen in Hongkong often at special events where huge flocks of crowd come together in a small place. Police and authorities lay down a route for people to walk through, guiding them, and reroute them if it gets too crowded, this is basic crowd control measures with immense mass of people, a skill and strategy which the chinese mainland authorities seems yet to learn and master. Don’t tell me that without crowd control people will behave in an orderly fashion by themselves, that is unlikely in any country for that matter.

        • Probotector

          Granted, but the cause of disturbance in the crowd still rests with the people in said crowd.

          • 42

            In such crowds of such magnitudes every sudden movement will become a ripple effect, even a small push or bump at the center amidst the crowd will create a wave and stronger domino like effect to the rest of the crowd on the outer rims. So something that is merely laws of physics of cause and effect, can be blamed on people? I don’t think so. People have no control of such force amidst a crowd.

          • Paul Shanahan

            We don’t yet actually know what happened (unfortunately, of course, that might never come to light, but we will see…).

            But it’s worth remembering that at the Camp Randall Crush (US, 1993), Roskilde festival crush (Denmark) in 2000 and the Hillsborough disaster (UK) (to name just three) the crowd were very quickly blamed by many amateur ‘commentators’ and some media (who later had to apologise) only to be absolved when proper inquiries were made. That is the point I was attempting to make to your friend Rick in China.

        • Rick in China

          but have superb crowd control

          And crowds of people who are typically sophisticated and well behaved..

    • Dolph Grunt

      I don’t disagree with your point about the authorities and proper crowd control, but I just can’t get over the mentality or reasoning behind being there in the first place. I know if I had (and I have in the past) seen a crowd even a tenth that size I would have changed my plans real quick.

  • Rick in China

    I’m actually OK living in China – I’m moving for my daughter’s wellbeing. I don’t understand why I can’t criticize some negative aspects of China without being labelled as someone who can’t stand it or has some sort of problem/problems/terrible life/etc. We have a pretty high quality life in China, and while we’d likely have to sell a couple apartments in order to buy something in either Vancouver or Bris/melb/sydney, absolutely aren’t hurting in any way financially should we go back. It’s not hard to rebuild a life anywhere in the world in my situation/career state. Just some FYI since you seem interested. :D

    • Kai

      I don’t understand why I can’t criticize some negative aspects of China without being labelled as someone who can’t stand it or has some sort of problem/problems/terrible life/etc.

      Actually, you do. Some people label you based on the impression they’ve formed from your comment history. Others have done so because they are too quick to pigeonhole you. You’ve labeled others based on the same spectrum of basis. You’ve seen others do it to yet others as well. Sometimes it’s fair, sometimes it isn’t, and often it is subjectively “fair” to some but “unfair” to others.

      Given that there are many on cS who “criticize some negative aspects of China” without being labeled in the same way you have by the same people, there must be something more than the simple act of “criticizing some negative aspect of China”. Maybe there is a pattern, a persistency, or a persona involved that lends credence to how you are labeled.

      “I don’t understand why…” was likely just a turn of phrase and not intended to be interpreted literally, but as someone who laughed about others’ hypocrisy, you’re remarkably lacking self-awareness of your own.

  • Sin

    This happens all the time in other countries too….. This is not uniquely a Chinese problem at all.

    • Dr Sun

      duke obviously has never been on the metro in Tokyo, a train in India, a ferry in the Philippines, a bus in Thailand or to Walmart on black Friday.

  • djamie

    I was on the Bund that night, passing by the first staircase about 45 minutes before the fatal crush (swept past because couldn’t control where I walked), getting up the second staircase at around 11 and standing about 200m away when it happened. Because of the amount of people I didn’t know anyone had died until the morning – indeed I was muttering about crappy bus services on my walk home – but deaths didn’t surprise me. There were three or four areas that were not prepared right and I had to use my fat body to hold myself as best I could: getting off the escalators from Nanjing Dong Lu; dealing with Nanjing Dong Lu/Bund move because the roads weren’t open to pedestrians; and the staircases up to the waterfront (the first one was already out of control when i went by). The police on the ground did try their best.

    Nobody there wanted to die. Indeed, the people there were the epitome of why young Chinese are seen as more polite than the older generation. Quite simply the area around that first staircase was out of control. It was wrong, just wrong.

    If I analysed I would say that the traffic should never have been going through, and the pedestrian barriers on Nanjing Dong Lu should have been removed, because big crowds need the space. But my feeling about that night is something I cannot explain, just a feeling that it was not right at all. I’ve spoken to my family about it, but factually, because the feeling isn’t right in myself.

  • Rick in China

    Just to clarify, my initial post was a little trollish – I don’t have anything against Paul and thought that my phraseology was hilarious, for me, and there certainly was no real anger behind anything I have written. I think I wrote it with a grin on my face. Maybe the humor is lost to many, but it was self-serving, and I knew it’d blow up into a bunch of tirades by specific people….which is why I call it a little trollish. It absolutely did that – and that’s why I went thru the replies with my buddy while we laughed hard the other night.

    • bujiebuke

      No, it’s because you’ve been called out now and in response your back peddling by insisting that you are actually nothing more than a troll. More over, your response have been inconsistent from “I enjoy your tirade, keep them coming” to “Fuck you! You dun know wut your talking about, this is a conspiracy against me”.

      You’ve discredited yourself on this forum plenty of times, except now there are people calling you out and you don’t like it.

      I hope that you keep your vitriol confined to this site or virtual space. Please don’t take your bigotry and hate out on your employees. They shouldn’t have to put up with a wank job of an employer like you.

      EDIT
      ——-
      These are your exact words to Paul: “A foreign cunt who lived in an expat/central area and has NO IDEA how things really happen”

      Explain to me how this doesn’t come off as holding “ill will” in your words?

  • KoreanWho

    So a bunch of people see 100 dollar bills which turned out to be just advertisement ends up killing

  • bB

    Please forgive my ignorance. But I am trying to understand how this happened because I care. I googled and saw a short stair on the “Shanghai Bund” which might be the location of this tragedy. But all of the other photos show police clearing a street intersection, with apparent bodies laying in the street. So I am confused. If the tragedy happened on the stairs, why are all the photos of the street intersection? Thank you!

    • elizabeth

      The flight of stairs is only about 20 m away from the traffic junction and there were many who died or were injured. The photos probably show different spots where people fell. There are photos of bodies on the stairs in the video. Those at the junction probably got trampled on while trying to catch the ‘notes’ thrown from a building.

      • bB

        Thank you for clarifying for me. :)

    • Kai

      They were moved there.

  • David

    A sad sad story. How about think of this instead of petty name calling back and forth for 100 posts?

  • Kai

    The public “event” was Christmas. That was the context of merriment and “antics” of celebration that the girls in your story seemed to have been operating in. Now, I personally don’t think they should’ve even jokingly attacked random people passing by with inflatable bats expecting them to know they’re just playing around in the “spirit” of the holiday, but that sounds like what they were doing.

    Since this seemed to have happened a year later, I’m presuming there’s some sort of tradition or trend in Chengdu where people celebrate a holiday or event by going around with inflatable bats jokingly attacking people. I’ve never personally experienced that in Chengdu but I know such phenomena exists in the world. People unfamiliar with it might misunderstand it or simply find it unamusing, but it isn’t without understandable context. That’s what I’m trying to say.

    It also hardly seems fair to damn all mainlanders based on a minority phenomenon in specifically Chengdu.

    • Zappa Frank

      I think is a Sichuan phenomenon because was the same in chongqing. Apparently fights weren’t uncommon because when you play with bats with strangers is to be expected. Still never seen before anywhere else in China.

      • Paul Shanahan

        I hear the Sichuanese can be pretty retarded in many aspects.

        • Zappa Frank

          Well my wife is sichuanese hahaha.. Is not that they are retarded, is just a less developed area, with all the consequences. They have many good points.

      • Kai

        Yeah, it might be. I haven’t personally seen it elsewhere in China either. Those bats are designed for this kind of silliness. The thing is, people need to be careful when they target people who may not be clued in that it’s all just fun and games. If you see someone else with an inflatable bat, then it’s probably safe to go bonk them cuz they know what’s going on, but random strangers can be risky, even if it is with an obvious toy and obviously without any real intent to injure or harass.

  • Kai

    A new contributor just did it. I just haven’t gotten around to formatting it because I’m trying to get back up to speed. Thanks for the patience.

  • Kai

    No, not a “Chinese tradition” but the accounts given suggest they seem to be a phenomenon that has happened multiple times involving young people in Chengdu for the holidays. It is therefore not remotely absurd to wonder if it is a local thing that not everyone is clued into resulting in the misunderstandings testified to.

    Why isn’t my Spring Break example relevant? Like the above posters, I wasn’t aware of it being a local phenomenon, involving young people doing something that was ultimately of little harm to complete strangers, in the context of a specific period of time (Christmas vs. Spring Break). Some of the “victims” will catch on with what was happening and forgive it as youthful merriment, while others misunderstand and end up with a bad experience and memory. It happens. It isn’t unique to Chengdu, mainlanders, or anything.

    • Cynic-Al

      Walking down an empty street and being assaulted doesn’t sound like a public event to me. I’m sure if one got out their guidebook there wouldn’t be any mention of the ‘famous’ Chengdu Christmas surprise attack beatings festival. I’ll concede that it may be an isolated phenomenon. I don’t think Chinese would take kindly to such a thing, either.

      As for your Spring Break example. Palm Springs is famous for two things: golf and Spring Break. If you went there during Spring Break, the weather was around 30 degrees, and you would have been aware of the large number of college-aged kids in the area. Also, you probably would have noticed people holding water guns, as opposed to JC’s example. Finally, why would anyone go to P.S. during Spring Break if they weren’t a college student? That’s something you could have/should have researched.

      I do agree people will react differently. I’m sure the blow up bats didn’t hurt, and a little water on a sunny day never hurt anyone. And, I never claimed it was unique to mainlanders or Chengdu people.

      • Kai

        The context is that they were walking down a relatively empty street on Christmas evening. Some girls seemed to have been chilling under an overpass and upon noticing some (I’m guessing) other young people pass by, they ran out giggling with inflated bats to bonk them.

        I don’t think they were lying in wait with the malicious intent to ambush and do harm. I speculate they merely saw some people who they figured they could have some holiday fun with, not appreciating the possibility that these strangers wouldn’t immediately understand their actions was just for fun. We have to wonder, would they would’ve done the same thing if it was some old Chinese couple?

        It’s isolated in that it doesn’t seem to be a widespread phenomenon. It’s not isolated in that it seems to have happened multiple times to different people involving similar circumstances a year apart. I don’t think it is absurd to wonder if this is a “thing” with SOME young people at that time of the year, that they get these inflatable bats and go around jokingly bonking people as some sort of holiday merriment.

        I honestly had no idea Palm Springs was known for its Spring Break. Where I’m from, the destination of choice and repute always seemed to be Tijuana or Cancun something. I was in Palm Springs with family. This was when I was a kid and not of the partying college age. My dad for some reason used to love Palm Springs. He doesn’t golf, do spas, or anything stereotypically associated with Palm Springs. He simply liked the weather, swimming in the hotel pool, and buffet brunches. Oh, I guess we’d take that cable car thing too. I don’t think it’s reasonable to have expected or prescribed that my then middle-aged parents should’ve done reseach to know that local college kids shoot random people on the streets with water guns.

        But here’s the thing, we caught on what was going on. Yeah, we noticed a lot of water guns and college kids. We noticed that aside from some mean-spiritedness directed at us by some, most people were just goofing around. We ended up buying water guns and joined in. While it was still dangerous for people to be shooting waterguns at people DRIVING, we weren’t of the temperment to get really angry about it and damn all Palm Springers much less Americans for it.

        I understand you aren’t claiming it was unique to mainlanders or Chengdu people, but surely you read JC’s

        Bunch of fucking idiots, these mainlanders.

        Imagine if I summed up my experience in Palm Springs as “bunch of fucking idiots, these Americans.” I don’t think that’s fair.

  • Xia

    If you don’t look at the text and just look at the pictures, you’d think it’s Hong Kong Occupy all again.

  • Chris

    although i’m not surprised that this has happened in China, it’s not specifically because of any ‘Chinese fault’ and doesn’t particularly feed into any larger comments about the failings of Chinese society (although i’m sure commenters will disagree with me). these things do happen all around the world.
    it’s just really sad and unfortunate. R.I.P.

  • Boris

    The train thing happens on the Underground in London.
    My own experience is, on lifts, people do wait when it is packed. At least where I am living in China, that is the case. Buses are a bit different. Where I live, it isn’t always packed. But when I go to the city, the buses are and usually the driver will open the doors at his own discretion if he believes the bus to be packed.

  • takasar1

    you’re an idiot. read “the thirty years war” by petyr (littlefinger) baelish

    • Dr Sun

      why ?

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