Why Are Overseas Chinese Students Not Returning to China?

The life of oversea Chinese students

From Netease:

Over 1.5 Million Oversea Chinese Students Not Returning; Xinhua News Agency: Why Aren’t They Coming Back?

Xinhua Viewpoint: Over 1.5 Million People Go abroad for Study And Don’t Return — As of the end of last year, the cumulative number of Chinese students who study abroad reached 2.64 million, while the number of people who studied abroad and came back is only 1.09 million – the “deficit” between going abroad and returning exceeds 1.5 million people. Since 2003, the “trade deficit” between the number of Chinese students studying abroad and the number of foreign students coming to China is close to or more than 40,000 students every year, with the highest being close to 70,000. Why do so many students not come back?

Xinhua News Agency Beijing October 24th report: Since the Reform and Opening Up, China has experienced a “wave of studying abroad” and “trend of returning to one’s country” that is the largest in scale, covering the most fields, and with the widest scope in history, and has also attracted more and more foreign students to come to China for study. However, behind this are two numbers of talent “deficits” that seem to be more worthy of attention:

As of the end of 2012, the cumulative number of Chinese students who study abroad reached 2.64 million, while the number of people who studied abroad and came back is only 1.09 million – the “deficit” between going abroad and returning exceeds 1.5 million people.

Since 2003, the number of Chinese students studying abroad increased from less than 120,000 to nearly 400,000 every year, while at the same time the number of foreign students coming to China increased from less than 80,000 to less than 330,000 —— The studying abroad “deficit” is close to or more than 40,000 people every year, the highest being close to 70,000 people.

The life of oversea Chinese students

The number of students returning home is increasing, but still “losing blood” when it comes to high-end talent

Since entering the new century, with the significant rise in China’s economic strength and the continuing European and American regional economic downturn, the number of Chinese students studying abroad and returning has increased dramatically, with the most recent five years being especially obvious.

Statistics show that in 2008, students who studied abroad and returned numbered only 69,300, exploded over 100,000 to 108,300 in 2009, thereafter increasing by nearly 40% in the following years with 134,800 in 2010, 186,200 in 2011, and 272,900 in 2012.

However, analysts pointed out that although the returned oversea students increased significantly, when looking at the difference in “quantity” and “quality”, a large proportion are ordinary people who relied on parental financial support to study abroad in recent years. They can hardly be said to be experts in their field much less “distinguished talent”, while the high-end talent who are truly specialized in their fields or have even obtained patents abroad aren’t actually many, and there may even be an increasing trend in such brain drain.

A representative for the Central Talents Task Group Office said that although China has developed from a country relatively deficient in human talent to the number one country in human resources, the numbers for China’s current brain drain is also the highest, with an average retention rate of 87% each for the science and engineering fields.

Europe and the United States Scholars Association Vice President and China Globalization Research Center Director Wang Huiyao believes that among the “going abroad wave” of the 1980s and 90s, the number of intellectual elites financed by the government or by themselves returning to the country are too few, while there is still a large brain drain among the newer generation of students who went abroad relying on skills and their assets.

“In Silicon Valley, the world center of high-technology, 35% of technology chiefs and laboratory directors are Chinese,” Wang Huiyao said.

Analysts pointed out that, although the total figures show that more than 1 million students studying abroad have returned to the country, the “talent deficit” of 1.5 million people is more worrisome.

The life of oversea Chinese students

Foreign students coming China rapidly increasing, but “wave of going abroad tide” still high

In 1950, the New China [PRC] received its the first batch of 33 study abroad students from the eastern European countries. Afterward, owing to the Cold War and reasons such as the country’s relatively weak national power and influence, the number of foreign students coming to China were few until the 1980s.

After entering the new century, China’s increasing power attracted more and more foreign students to study and live in China, increasing every year in the tens of thousands, starting from less than 78,000 people in 2003 and rapidly increasing to 292,000 in 2011. By 2012, China had 328,000 foreign students from 200 countries and territories distributed distributed across 31 provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities in 690 universities, scientific institutes and other educational institutions for learning, of which 28,768 were on Chinese government scholarships. In the four measures of total number of foreign students, number of countries and regions the students came from, number of organizations in our country that received students, and number of students on Chinese government scholarships, new records were established.

The life of oversea Chinese students

However, accompanying the trend of coming to China to study is our own country’s continued and growing “wave of going abroad”

At present, the proportion of high school graduates in our country choosing to go abroad for university is increasing, and there is no lack of outstanding individuals among them. Not long ago, the latest report on top gaokao [college entrance examination] scorers released by the China Alumni Network revealed that once the “top scorers” finish their undergraduate studies domestically in China, there were relatively few who chose to then directly take employment or engage in entrepreneurship in China, with most of them choosing to continue on to study abroad for a master’s or doctoral degree, with conservative estimates that the proportion of national “top scorers” going abroad reaching up to 60%.

Data shows that in 2003 the number of students who went abroad to study was nearly 120,000 people, and has since steadily increased. In 2011, it exceeded 300,000 and reached 340,000. In 2012 it reached a record of nearly 400,000.

Analysts pointed out that from the statistics of those going abroad to study and those coming in to study, our country in fact is in a “deficit”, passive situation. In 2012 the highest “deficit” reached nearly 70,000 people, while the U.S. maintained a “surplus” of over two to three hundred thousand people. “This in fact means that the ‘semi-finished’ human talent produced through the basic education our country has used a large amount of national power [resources] on, they are easily lured away in large numbers and cheaply by other countries and then primarily work for those countries after becoming ‘finished’ talent [uses the metaphor of product manufacturing], while we seldom directly benefit in this aspect, and what more, our current policies do not create the best conditions of entrepreneurship and employment for the top foreign talent that come to study in China.”

A spokesperson for the International Cooperation and Exchange Office of the Ministry of Education pointed out in an interview with media that developed countries have existing advantages with regards to the cultivation/fostering of human talent and related aspects, which is bound to attract intellectual resources to flow towards them. “We should be amply mentally prepared for this.”

The life of oversea Chinese students

How can China become a “hot spot for talent” or “accumulator of talent”?

Analysts believe that the brain drain caused by the ongoing talent “deficit” and especially the loss of high-end talent loss will have an impact on China’s rapidly booming economy, with lack of innovation being one expression. In the 2012 Global Innovation Index that WIPO published, China only ranked 34th among 141 countries.

In order to change this situation, China in recent years had increased efforts in “attracting talent”, such as the implementation of the “Thousand Talents Program“, the construction of incubators in various places targeting study abroad returnees, and strengthening the work of attracting foreign experts, etc.

Wang Huiyao said: “I think the Chinese government is very motivated to solve the problem of brain drain, whether it be with the Thousand Talents Program, the Youth Thousand Talents Program or the Foreign Experts Thousand Talents Program, or the establishment of the talent special zones, this series of programs–including the new Ten Thousand Talents Program that just came out–may be a Chinese characteristic but they nonetheless have a very positive effect on attracting human talent.”

But simultaneously some experts believe that these government-led plans for introducing/attracting [talent] still have room for improvement. Sun Yat-Sen University Hong Kong, Macao, Pearl River Delta Research Center Deputy Director Yuan Chiping said that our country emphasizes the “provision of money and housing” and such material benefits to attract high-end talent while neglecting improvements in the accompanying aspects of entrepreneurial environment and scientific research systems/organizations.

Experts believe that a talent “deficit” for developing countries remains a problem that for the time being cannot be completely solved. Based on maintaining sustained and healthy economic development, conforming with the trend of globalized talent development, improving the environment for the development of talent, and actively creating favorable conditions for students to return home, building an economic model led by knowledge and innovation, are the key for our country to break free from “brain drain” to become a “place that accumulates talent” and a “hot spot for talent”.

(Original title: Piercing The Talent “Deficit” Behind The “Going Abroad Wave” and “Trend of Returning to the Country”)

The life of oversea Chinese students

Comments from

小编你麻痹 [网易山西省太原市网友]:

As long as someone is not using public funds/quota to study abroad, where people want to go is their own freedom.

网易广东省佛山市网友 [光电元器件]:

Young Li wants to emigrate to the United States,
The leader asks him: “Are you unsatisfied with your wages?”
Young Li says: “I am satisfied.”
“Are you unsatisfied with your housing?”
“Satisfied”
“So are you unsatisfied with the internet environment?”
“Also satisfied”
“Satisfied with health care, education, and all that?”
“All satisfied!”
“Since you are satisfied with all of these things, why do you still want to emigrate?”
“Because not being satisfied is allowed there!”

网易广东省珠海市网友(113.76.*.*): (responding to above)

Classic. For example, in news involving the government these days, the comments below are all praise, flattery. What difference is there between this and burying your head in the sand?

网易上海市手机网友(101.80.*.*): (responding to above)

Fenqing once again talking nonsense. The reason for emigration is not about human rights at all, but an admiration for the assimilation in Western civilization [notions of multiculturalism, melting pot] and a pursuit of a Western material life. Immigrants simply are too lazy to even vote, much less drag in issues of human rights. So childish.

网易山西省晋城市网友 [cwxfyjm] : (responding to above)

Voting is the only human right? If so, then you don’t even have that one. Being able to enjoy the welfare that human rights bring, and you still don’t admire it? Retard! Is it not better than having others represent you on your behalf? And what are they doing? Did you have them do these things?

网易浙江省杭州市网友 [插入林允儿的屁眼]: (responding to above)

The third floor [commentator: (101.80.*.*)] is not a fenqing but an insect. HeHe. Brother Xun says, the young can also become insects. Drank too much dead pig water from Jiaxing.

网易上海市手机网友(180.175.*.*): (responding to above)

The fourth floor [referring to cwxfyjm], you are just a dung beetle who has narrow vision, and dung beetles like you are plenty in Western countries, always unsatisfied with society, with no ability themselves, only demanding of others, only venting shit, but not daring to actually rebel/revolt, with courage even smaller than that of foreign devils. It has nothing to do with whether a society is a democracy or not.

网易上海市手机网友(180.175.*.*): (responding to above)

The deep-rooted bad habits of Chinese people in the new era are just like a dung beetle who has narrow vision, and there are plenty of dung beetles of this type in Western countries, always unsatisfied with society, with no ability themselves, yet still demanding of others,, only venting shit, but not daring to actually rebel/revolt, with courage even smaller than that of foreign devils. There are plenty of people like this in every country, and it has nothing to do with whether a society is a democracy or not. Look, isn’t the thinking and conduct of you guys similar? The nature of the citizens determines what a society is like, so Chinese society becoming like this is caused by itself. So don’t whine all day like Lin Daiyu.

有保有压 [网易上海市网友]:

Rivers and mountains are only in my dream,
It has been difficult to be close to the motherland for many years.
But no matter what
It cannot change my Chinese heart. [A patriotic song’s lyrics]

Overseas Chinese will return en masse to build up the country when The People’s Daily, Global Times, etc. enter museums.

网易黑龙江省哈尔滨市网友 ip:113.4.*.*

Attracting top talent needs three points to be addressed: 1, social environment; 2, salary and benefits; 3, development/advancement opportunities; Another point which is also an important reason is that most of the people going abroad are sent by family and relatives with their money, and those who are willing to come back are patriotic, while those who do not come back need to be understood, as all people are concerned with seeking advantages and avoiding disadvantages [self-interested].

90000y [网易云南省昆明市网友]:

Send me [overseas] and I’ll definitely persuade them to come back.

网易浙江省杭州市网友 ip:183.129.*.* :

Reflect on the current domestic situation and you’ll know [why the students don’t come back].

yuezheng2004 [网易广东省深圳市网友]:

Who would be willing to return to Hell from Heaven?

yuzhengmen [网易浙江省杭州市网友]:

Since 2003, the “trade deficit” between the number of Chinese students studying abroad and the number of foreign students coming to China is close to or more than 40,000 students every year, with the highest being close to 70,000. Why do so many students not come back?

没事就骂骂删贴的 [网易加拿大手机网友]:

Among 1.3 billion people, there is of course no lack of talent, but if the most outstanding among this pool of talent leaves, not staying in the mainland after finishing university, then this trend is very discouraging. High-level competition is about the level of the experts/elite talent. The software that 1 billion people in China can’t produce, Bill Gates just needed several days and nights to work out. By the time you’ve learned how, they’ve already made Steve Job’s mobile phone. They will always be designing and we will always be working for them [manual labor] and who will be living the good life in that situation is one anyone can figure out.

为什么会这样子 [网易美国网友]:

Sitting in my school’s library preparing for a test and I saw this piece of news. The pictures in this piece of news indeed reflected a disappointing part of study abroad students’ life, but there are more positive parts that were not shown [referring to a photo slideshow included in the article but not directly related to the Xinhua article itself].
To be honest, I feel really studying for a doctorate in the United States is indeed very hard, but this hardship indicates that I am constantly improving. If a person can easily deal with all kinds of things tomorrow, it only shows that he is marking time [not making headway, not making progress, not overcoming new challenges]. The language barrier is overcome for most after a few years.
No matter where you are, just do your best.
Alas, there is no related facilities in China for the field I am specializing in, and I would be a nobody/useless if I were to go back.

遛弯者 [网易河南省郑州市网友]:

When foreigners call the police, it only takes one hour, while when Chinese call the police…
In China and overseas [Chinese people] are second-class citizens, so why come back?

网易北京市网友 [安石之殇在于宋]:

Xinhua: Why don’t they come back?
Brother: Why come back?

奇星寄寒 [网易广东省惠州市网友]:

Why come back? Are the wages high here [in China]? Are the housing prices low? Is the tax rate low? Is seeing a doctor [getting medical treatment] easy? Is speaking the truth on the internet not censored?

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  • the answer to this one is bleeding obvious, isnt it?

    • Archie

      Ease of ability to purchase good cheeses?

      • Not getting lung cancer at age 8, seas that can be swum in, without risk of pollution etc etc

        • Archie

          哦。

        • moody

          damn right.
          Environment is the key factor (air/water/architetcture/quiet life/less crowded cities/slower pace at work = quality of life), not earnings

          I disagree with most other posts on here that state wages are low here.
          a lot of opportunities exist for Chinese with overseas background.
          and they get better wages offer than 1’800rmb as some seem to think. -most factory workers earn more than that, i really wonder where do some get those kind of figures-
          As for starting your own business, China offer more opportunities but it s damn competitive and challenging.
          And to match this salary, they ‘ll enjoy a low burden tax system, a lower daily life cost and slightly cheaper real estate.
          China is a country where it’s possible to survive with even very low earnings, which is not really possible in old europe for example, where you very quickly find yourself sleeping on the streets.

      • Jahar

        cheeeeeesssseeee

  • Archie

    Chinese students studying abroad are often given very easy path to remain in that country after graduation, and find work and even find paths to permanent residency, citizenship and all the bells and whistles that come with it. There is a strong pulling factor for the students to not return. I think most of us are aware of the push factors that encourage the same.

    So China wants to get foreign students coming here, and they have succeeded. They fund scholarship programs and bend over backwards to get students to come here for study. But then once they graduate, these same students are told to piss off, you can’t stay here. We have no provision in a visa laws for people like you. You must go home and get two years work experience, and even then we’re not sure we really want you here.

    Idiotic.

    • I can relate to the “two years work experience” hoop that people are forced to jump through with varying degrees of difficulty. I have over 6 years experience in web-based application development and a degree in it, but I’ve always worked freelance. The times I’ve tried to get a work visa for anything outside of teaching English, it gets refused because of lack of experience.

      • postman’s dogwalker’s sister’s

        ….ahem…..Forge… cough..cough….it….ahem hem hem.

        ….I know a guy who’s postman’s dogwalker’s sister’s ugly cousin’s separated at birth’s best friend’s salamander who forged all the paperwork to get around that, and he had no degree or experience. Got around Beijing red-tape to do it too.

        • lonetrey / Dan

          One hell of a pet salamander! Where do I buy me one?!

          • postman’s dogwalker’s sister’s

            You can buy them by the dozen on WangFuJing, all skewered and feshly brushed with ganky brown sauce for flavor

    • Cauffiel

      I helped a Chinese guy practice for a student visa interview to the United States a few years ago. He said the process was designed to make sure students would go back to China after graduation. He had to verify that he had ties to China that would compel him to return, such as property or immediate family.

      So I always thought U.S. policy was much like what you describe China’s to be.

      • bprichard

        I think the US is not super keen on the undergraduates staying but clearly want the PhD type students to stay. It’s a matter of what work the student can accomplish after graduation. The US produces plenty of domestic bachelor’s degree holders and doesn’t particularly desire people without specific, high value skills.

        They probably only let so many foreign students in to undergrad programs to help the universities pad their finances with students who pay full price.

        • Cauffiel

          That’s a good point, but in this case, the student was attending an international finance graduate program at a business school in NYC.

          • bprichard

            It’s also possible that would fall under the category of things the US doesn’t need. If the educational visa program is at all aligned with the work visa program (whose objectives are very clear), the goal is to get as many people in the industries that are key to future American prosperity – engineering, medicine, science, technology – as possible. Those are the areas where the US educational system is failing to deliver enough workers.

            However, I’m totally just speculating here, and it’s certainly possible that the educational visa program is up to something else entirely or are incompetent at actually achieving their goals like many a government agency.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            Another interesting thing I found in my research is that often times the US feels the brain drain is negatively affecting our interests overseas. For instance, there was a legitimate concern over the past years that all the educated Afghanis and Iraqis were going abroad, thereby reducing the possibility that the country could develope further

          • DavidisDawei

            Especially if you are a woman there (in Afghanistan)?
            If the Taliban returns, it won’t be so great for their women.

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            good point, i certainly hope they let women leave whenever they wanted, particularly educated ones

          • DavidisDawei

            I think the US needs soccer/football players. If you are a super star, they will bend the rules and make you a citizen immediately and have you at practice next week.

            For the rest, you need to bring money to the table. If you don’t have a skill that Google wants, then you need to bring money.

            I have a “friend” who finished grad school in the USA and asked me for a job to secure a 1 year work visa. Instead, her parents came over to the US from China and the 3 of them were granted work permits by the US government The US government has a program that allows foreigners to live and work here IF they start a business that hires “X” number of people for “Y” period of time (I forget the details). Their contract expired, they fired the people and re-organized the business, but they are still here in a different State now.

          • Kai
          • DavidisDawei

            Hi Kai,
            I don’t recall their specifics, but I browsed your link and it sounds similar to the plan they were on.

            I have noticed where I am now, that quite a few Chinese have bought property and opened businesses.

            A local college has quite a few Chinese students (mostly grad students) and perhaps they are behind this new development?

            A few months ago, I ran into a girl from that school who was with her parents, had a map and looked lost. I asked her if she needed help and she told me they were exploring the area.

            Cheers.

          • Kai

            Yeah, the EB-5 is basically a “green card for economic stimulus” deal. Quite a few countries have similar programs. There’s also some talk about how the US should really up the investment amount requirement, partly because the people who can afford this route have a lot of money and can afford more, so why not milk them for the good of the US economy?

          • DavidisDawei

            The US has always been excellent at recruiting from around the world for whatever holes it needed to fill.

            One of the guys (originally from China?) who started Google and then renounced his US citizenship to avoid taxes…
            this and similar cases have caught some attention. I’m sure the government will look to close those loopholes

          • bprichard

            That was a Facebook guy. I believe he was from Brazil, but I’m unwilling to look it up. He ended up in Asia’s favorite tax haven, Singapore.

          • Cauffiel

            That’s fuckin great! We captured one of the brilliant ones!

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            Bprichard and Cauffiel, you are both right to some degree. I am doing a graduate paper on this very topic at the moment (H1-B visas in particular) and the system is not nearly as rational as it should be. In fact my professor keeps having to stop me when I talk about the subject because he says “stop assuming rationality” in reference to the selection of foreign students or foreigners in general who can stay in the US.
            The fact is that at the interview stage for any student they want to make sure you are not intending to stay illegally. For example they will check how much you have in your account (to check if you can pay for a flight back for one thing) and other basic things to make sure you are not a freeloader or attempting illegal stay after the visa expires.

            As for after graduation it continues to be rather inefficient in terms of who is able to stay on a work visa and who isn’t. For instance, there is currently an 85,000 person cap for ANY foreigners wanting to work in the US and you are selected randomly in a lottery (if your US employer is willing to deal with all the paperwork and costs of bringing you in), and not by your skill level or the job you are applying for but completely randomly. Also, it is rather arduous for an employer to hire you unless they can easily prove to the Department of Labor (DOL) without a doubt that an American cant fill that job instead. And while on the surface that seems great (for americans) in most cases the employer would have done that already (hired an American) but don’t because many foreigners specialize in STEM fields which are a lot of work with not a particularly high level of pay (80-90 K if you are lucky). Most americans don’t want to waste all that time studying minute details of chemistry for a mid-level job.
            Finally those of you thinking that foreigners are often abused so this system is good, well the answer is mostly no but partly yes. There is some abuse but there are so many checks in place for that kind of thing through DOL(supposing you are using the work visa and don’t stay illegally) that abuse is not as common as you might think. Also there are so many fines and such it is a pain for businesses to risk all that for a foreign worker unless he is truly high skilled.
            So anyway, long story short the system isn’t necessarily anti-foreigner or pro-foreigner, it is just anti- take-our-jobs and anti-illegal overstays. Due to our own skewed political system and biases for losing American jobs we will sometimes shoot ourselves in the foot. But for the most part high skilled students have at least a better shot than others obtaining a visa even if it is still through a lottery than a low skilled worker or even a spouse.

          • DavidisDawei

            Are you researching B-1/B-2 Visa as well?

          • Don’t Believe the Hype

            Not as much, no. My focus is on high skilled foreign workers who stay for prolonged terms mostly

      • moom

        The official position is that they don’t want foreign students to stay, but the reality is that they do want them to stay if they are offered a good job. It’s just politics, I think. I was a foreign student and professor in the US, now in Australia, here we are a bit more welcoming, it is quite easy to get permanent residence it seems if you are studying here.

      • don mario

        there is still a difference. foriegner’s are only welcome in china as guest’s, the attitudes and laws both reflect it.

    • linette lee

      IT’s not cheap to study in western countries like USA. They pay full tuition. Extremely expensive. Tuition fee can run up to usd$150,000 or higher. Most get student loans and take years to pay back.
      I think university tuition fee is much higher in western countries. It’s not worth it unless you are planning to stay I think.

      • 二奶头发

        Then they default on the loan or claim they are bankrupt. Result for them….free tuition.

        • linette lee

          claiming bankruptcy means you will have no credit in the future to do anything. Like buying a house or even taking out a loan for a car. Once you claim bankruptcy it affect you financially. Not that easy to default.

          • Marquis_de_Sade

            Actually that is true, but in the UK, you can still live, your credit rating may be shot, but you can still get welfare and a job and so on. Noone can “force” you to repay what you don’t have, you might have some stuff repossessed, that would be the worst of it. Not sure as for the USA.

        • DavidisDawei

          The banksters have made student loans a very profitable stream of income for themselves. They had the US congress collude with them to make it almost impossible to discharge student loan debt, even when declaring bankruptcy; they are with you for life.

          How that applies to someone outside the USA, I don’t know, maybe the Chinese are borrowing from institutions with different rules? I doubt a US bank would give a student loan to a foreigner

          • linette lee

            A lot of loan has co signers.

      • linette lee

        usd$150,000 or higher plus interest. So by the time you pay back all your loan it cost like usd$250,000 or higher.

      • DavidisDawei

        Sounds like a Great deal for the schools and not so good for the others who need financial assistance.
        In the US, most people (and statistics back this up) believe you make more money with post-high school education.
        Some folks choose a trade, but most don’t know what the heck they want to do and go off to college for 4 years and $100K+ of debt. One reason to join the military; let someone else pay for your education!

        • linette lee

          In USA is no joke to join the army. The USA gov’t WILL send you over to Afghanistan. Soldiers died. It’s not worth it to sign up for army to get assist education loan and risk your life.
          Why USA are sending their men and women to die for people in other countries. The middle East folks citizens are happy to watch Americans die fighting for their freedom. Sick. The fxcking USa greedy politicians should go and send all their own children to fight in middle east. Starting with George Bush and his whole family.

          • DavidisDawei

            you are right Lu Xun,

            there is a risk and a trade off with most decisions. I joined because I was an idealistic teenager who grew up on John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, plus the uniform was quite awesome!

            But I grew older and a little wiser and this is why wars are fought by “kids”.

            Sadly, a kid (named Matt) who worked next door to me wanted to joint the United State Marine Corps and I sat down with him to find out why and I tried to discourage his choice for the reasons he gave. I even called in a fellow Marine to speak with him, to let him know he had other options.
            This kid was 6’3″; a big, quiet strapping kid with a nice smile and broad shoulders; the drill instructors would love this kid. He knew what he wanted and no one was going to stop him. He finished boot, went to Hawaii for advance training and deployed to Afghanistan. He was killed the first week there; supposedly bounced out of the HumVee and run over.
            A huge waste. I tell this story to remember a kid who I thought had a very bright future and I’ll never forget him and the dreams he had.

            I agree with you.. most of us are tools used to generate wealth for the elite.

            I think it is similar all around the world.
            While it is possible to make it to this elite “club” in the USA, maybe it is not so different than China’s elite, except the USA is just better at political spin and being politically correct? I don’t know the answer to that question, but I know that EVERYTHING is translated into Dollars and cents, not sense.

            Cheers,

          • Ami

            There is literally no point in complaining about George Bush in 2013.
            Also Afghanistan isn’t in the middle east and Americans aren’t the only ones dying for “freedom”.

          • Garet43

            Excuse me, I will continue to complain about George Bush so long as the negative effects of his decisions (2 trillion dollar Iraq war, financial and environmental deregulation, etc) are still with us. I.e. always.

    • 二奶头发

      I’ve always not liked the marriage visa situation in China. A Waiguoren can marry a chinese person but if he or she wants to live with their spouse in China all they can get is a family visa. That Visa won’t allow you to work in China. It is also very difficult to impossible to get a permanent residence status or Chinese citizenship.

      • chinese

        if u r a Chinese student planning to study in australia don’t.Australian unis have gone downhill in recent times because of cutbacks and funding and rip of international students.not to mention cost of living,rent,public transport woes, increased crime against Asians etc.Better of studying in hong kong or chinese universities.In addition aussies or 屙屎 a bunch of racist redneck bogans!

        • Such a reasoned and well foot noted argument.

      • don mario

        it says it all, laowai are guest’s only. even when you are married.

        • Probotector

          Unwanted guests at that.

    • It’s China. You start your own business and stay. It has that in common with the USA. Easy to be an entrepreneur. Why rely on others to tell you what you can and can’t do? What are we as westerners? All meek little mice?

    • don mario

      hahaha perfectly said.

  • Alexander

    Higher salaries in most cases and easier to get employed abroad than in China.

  • Guest23

    Lots of factors, but most of it comes down to economic opportunities, unless you can have some fairness or even openness to dealing with the bureaucracy of the businessmen and politicians there, you won’t get far ahead and someone will swindle or extort you there.

    Education seems primary the cause and some students seems to either fit in well or like the country their studying to ever come back, the Gaokao *factory* education system for students is a killer for a lot unless you can do backdoor deals to get ahead.

    • Rei Yu Tian

      The average wage for a Chinese college graduate is 1800 yuan. Try surviving on that living in the big cities. And a girlfriend at the same time? Good luck~

      But then again, the ones that study abroad have loaded parents. No worries for them.

      • Which also forces them to live inconveniently far away from the city center and almost always have more than a few roommates.

        • Rei Yu Tian

          “Ant people”

        • No stroking the salami or fingering the fish mouth for them then?!

      • moody

        It’ s a mistake to think/assume that Chinese studying overseas are all loaded.
        It’s actually the kind of BS you often read on many Chinese websites.
        actually a lot are struggling washing dishes at nights in Chinese restaurants or doing small shitty non-declared jobs to pay for their tuitions.

      • Carsten Wendler

        That is a misconception. My girlfriend is Chinese and studied abroad but her parents are definitely not loaded. They are doing ok but they aren’t rich. Fact is, that studying in Germany is free wereas in China (or worse, in the US) she would have paid an unreasonable touition. She saved up money for the plane ticket, visa and to open a bank account and got a student job in a hotel. We are living in China right now but as soon as we have kids we will go back to Germany because of free kindergarden and schools, state funded monthly child support and clean air. If china wants their educated to return they at least have to make an effort to stop exploiting them. There is no reason for my girlfriend to stay in china exept for her family. She now has 2 excellent university degrees and has to work for 3500RMB a month. That is the average rent for a shitty appartment in Shanghai. She made more money working her student job in the hotel. I love China but this is a sad state of afairs :/

        • DavidisDawei

          Hello Carsten,
          Is her family traditional?
          If yes, do you worry her family won’t “allow” her to go with you?
          If they tell her to choose between you and them, who do you think she would choose?

          • Carsten Wendler

            She studied German in Germany where I had just begun to study Chinese (we met through a tandem partner program) and we have already lived together during that time for two years. So I’d say her parents are not very traditional. Although when we went to visit them in Xi’an, we had to sleep in separate beds. Her parents would of course prefer her to stay close, the same as my parents would like me to be closer, but they are not forcing her to do so. I am already very accepted by her family and I can say for sure that they would never try to put her into a position where she had to choose between them and me. Very fortunate, really.

  • OR PICK A NAME

    I have to say that life is so easy in the US, but it is also so boring.

    • bprichard

      If you find life in the US boring, you’re not doing it right. No one is forcing you to live in Barstow or Muncie.

    • Mony Xie

      What do you mean boring? YOU’RE ON THE INTERNET!

  • Cauffiel

    Because talented people in China get ground into dust by power brokers who gain their positions for being born into the right family. That’s fucking why.

    • Brett

      Also, international students get $15 an hour to serve lunch in the school cafeterias. Some of their parents have never even seen that kind of money.

    • Guest23

      Nepotism and the constant promotion of unqualified people into positions they haven’t earned, bit a tearjerker for those who worked their butts off but gets sidelined because you aren’t buddy-buddy with the boss.

    • linette lee

      So true. The only way to get rich in China is by marry rich or born rich. Connection. No one can become rich the way like Mark Zuckerberg. And the rich kids probably don’t need to study in order to get into good school. Mommy daddy buy them their certificates and job positions. It’s just a whole generation of dumb and dumber. Descendents of Mao party members. lol.

      Mao..dumb ugly and stupid.
      http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/09/article-0-19B357D8000005DC-348_634x607.jpg

      • Robert Rou

        No, just no. This is a bad as your Amerika comment. You just don’t treat one of the world’s best this way. No.

        • Cauffiel

          Shut up.

          • TheSOP

            This Rou is going around accussing Weiner of being an Opuim War denialist when he is nothing more than a Mao apologist, disgusting creature.

          • Glad somebody has stood up to him, well said.

          • Probotector

            Well you know he was poisoned, with STDs.

      • linette lee

        If I was one of his wife I would poison him. hahahah..lol.

        • Robert Rou

          This is so very wrong. It is already said that Mao died under suspicious circumstances. All of you deserve to live in caves the rest of your life.

          • lonetrey / Dan

            Deserve to live in caves?

            The only cave I will live in is my Mancave! :D

          • the ace of books

            What’s in this mancave? If I could make an ideal mancave, I’d have all the books I could acquire, and also a neverending river of hot chocolate. With bacon trees.

          • lonetrey / Dan

            Better start buying those Wonka bars if you ever hope to find that chocolate river….

          • the ace of books

            Yeah. Or maybe I’ll wait for that Chocolate Rain to start falling.

          • DavidisDawei

            oh the dream….I remember seeing that movie as a little boy and envying the fat kid drinking from the chocolate river

          • maybeabanana

            MMMMM chocolate bars filled with little bits of bacon…

          • the ace of books

            You want good chocolate, try chocolate with chilis in it. good stuff.

          • mr.wiener

            Be careful. Sometimes a bacon tree is just a ‘hambush.

          • the ace of books

            Oh man, that kind of pun is unporkgivable.

          • the ace of books

            You need to leave a valid email address if you want a response. If you don’t give people a chance to respond to you, how can you expect anyone to explain anything?

          • fhfhfh

            there are no books allowed in a mancave! what you described is a library with a snack bar. a mancave consists of fun things and alcohol

          • Probotector

            Any babes?

          • fhfhfh

            and lots of babes!! in bikinis! and we’ll all be drinking michelob ultra and laughing!!

          • mr.wiener

            My mancave will have comfy leather Chesterfield sofas, a very well stocked bar with beer fridge, cigars , my pipe collection with good tobaccos, some gaming consoles and large screen tvs and books, LOTS of books.
            Women will be allowed to enter, but they must only discus manly subjects inside.

          • I do like your thinking here dear boy, I really do. Cigars, good call, and pipes worthy of sherlock holmes. Leather sofas, fantastic. A place for putting to the world to rights. May I also suggest a few bottles of only the finest single malt?

          • mr.wiener

            Only if it is a good and varied selection,leaning more towards the smokey single malts of Islay.
            But we should not discriminate. There are also a huge world of worthy rums waiting to be tasted. A good rum, a coffee and a fine cigar are an exceptional way to spend an afternoon. sip sip, puff puff, sip sip.

          • you have me sold, only men, no women, and of course victorian dress and a moustache. Islay malts are the best indeed.

          • the ace of books

            Books are fun things, and alcohol is a sometimes food.

            (But chocolate are al always food.)

          • Jahar

            is that another word for ass hole?

          • mr.wiener

            Only if he was referring to the person he was posting to.

          • mr.wiener

            You rock sir.

          • Cauffiel

            Shut up.

        • TheSOP

          Anyone who poisoned that ugly old STD infested pedophile would have been a real Chinese patriot!

        • mr.wiener

          Nancy Astor: If you were my husband, I would give you poison.
          Churchill: If I were your husband I would take it.

          • ElectricTurtle

            Oooo that’s a sick burn.

          • linette lee

            I will give him viagra and nitroglycerin. He needed for sex.

          • mr.wiener

            yelp!

          • Riddler

            my dick just inverted.

        • Riddler

          No need. Just introduce him to Eattot.

      • Cauffiel

        Mao was ugly and a huge asshole, but he was still brilliant. I don’t mean his ideas were great, but wresting control of a nation, and such a one as China…. not something a dumb person could have done.

        • ElectricTurtle

          I think it was mostly that the CCP’s message back then resonated with a population that was (rightly) afraid that Chiang Kai-shek was going to be another Yuan Shikai. It’s unfortunate that the Chinese people couldn’t see through them both, as they ended up running from one evil to another.

          • DavidisDawei

            Turtle – yes, Did the people ever have a choice?
            Maybe none of us ever do (even when we think we do)
            I love George Carlin’s tirade about having 52 choices of ice cream, but only 2 political parties

            Do most leaders really think of their people as people?

            It must have been very difficult for anyone to manage a widely uneducated, agrarian driven country back then…
            with huge external influences of the US and USSR.

        • DavidisDawei

          Sean, I do not remember Mao’s life history, but what struck me when I went to his hometown and walked the museum of his life is how much effort he spent actively developing Africa back in the 1950’s. He saw Africa as the place China would utilize, even more than how the US has utilized China in the last 20 years. He envisioned Africa supplying food, oil and other necessary basic resources.

          • Cauffiel

            Yeah, smart dude.

            How did you know my first name?

          • DavidisDawei

            You have relayed some interesting stories previously – I think we have “chatted” before and You used it at some point?

          • Cauffiel

            Well, holy damn, good memory.

          • KamikaziPilot

            Didn’t you also have your pic as an avatar before too? I remember you’re a bald headed, trollish looking bastard right?

          • Cauffiel

            Partially bald. Dick.

          • KamikaziPilot

            There are no “partially bald”, either you’re bald or not. Anyway you know I’m just messing with you :). Just be glad you’re not a woman and partially bald.

          • Cauffiel

            There is definitely partially bald, but not partially bastard. And I am all bastard.

        • don mario

          good at what he did, but what he did was pretty messed up at best… at worst insane. not what i would call a brilliant person.

      • Germandude

        “The only way to get rich in China is by marry rich or born rich. Connection. No one can become rich the way like Mark Zuckerberg.”

        Not true at all. There are countless examples of Chinese that managed to set up their own companies/products and got rich through that. Not Zuckerberg-rich but still, millionaires.
        No doubt that it’s harder to achieve here than in a country where e.g. copyrights are secured, but still.
        Generalizing like your comment is unfair and doesn’t help those who actually criticize on a higher level than “regular table standard”.

      • TheSOP

        Mao..dumb ugly and stupid…. and a STD infested pedophile who killed millions of Chinese and other Asians. Glad some Chinese are catching on.

      • 二奶头发

        I’m going to disagree on this one. There must be some rags to riches stories in China. It can’t all be born rich / marry rich to be rich.

      • DavidisDawei

        I met a Canadian guy (white) who desperately tried to get his product in front of buyers in China and failed time after time after time. He found a connected Chinese guy and paid him a very high commission and “miraculously” made headway until someone knocked his product off (maybe it was the guy he went to for assistance) –

      • Robert Rou

        Linette, honest question here: How do HK people teach their history?

        • Riddler

          Honestly.

        • linette lee

          HK taught me the opposite of what was taught to you about Mao.
          >.<

    • slob

      I know right. So much attention given to students who are from corrupt as shit families.

      The biggest talent isn’t with them, it’s with the poor as hell kids who actually care about their study so if they pump more money and attention into the rural kids, it would show a hell of a lot more talent given that there are 1.3ish billion people here so odds are it’s in there somewhere, they’re just looking in the wrong place. “Look to the ground to appreciate the height of the sky”. I just made that up. /selfhighfive

      • Cauffiel

        le–gend— wait for it…

        • the ace of books

          …DARY

    • the ace of books

      You have a point, but I’d like to add to it: “ground into dust” is the one optino, and “go into the service of/get used by” is another. China has a long history of talent being recruited by/recruiting itself ot people in positions of power – lookit all the historical philosophers and advisors, and then at all the hundreds and thousands who wanted to become philosophers and advisors. “Talent” in China is considered impressive but not essential for success – after all, if you’re rich you can buy someone to be talented for you.

      • Cauffiel

        Yeah, I can buy that. Thats why Europe has its history in music and art; it was largely commissioned by the ruling classes. But however much it utilizes talent is dwarfed by a more open system.

  • Rei Yu Tian

    A list of reasons;

    1. Better wages
    2. Better opportunities for career paths
    3. Better environment
    4. More purchasing power (Example: 3,000 usd you can live very comfortably in NYC, 3,000 rmb and you’ll struggle in Beijing, and most Chinese graduates don’t even come close to 3,000 rmb a month!)
    5. Better quality goods
    6. Luxury goods cost less
    7. Better housing
    8. A lot less people
    9. Less chance of being run-over by asshole drivers
    10. The ethic of western societies are just plain higher than China’s at the moment.

    Please let me know what you guys think. Discuss away~

    • Guest23

      Pretty much spot on, the quality of life is better than the what it was years ago, but it could be better but you won’t see it.

      • linette lee

        I have this one chinese girlfriend from China and she brags about how big is her house in China in some town. So I ask her why come to USA. She didn’t answer at first but later told me life is better in USA because living environment is better. Like more clean better air. Better law and order so it’s more safe to be a citizen. More opportunity to make more money. She never mentioned about better quality goods or more living space or working environment.
        So I came to the conclusion Chinese want better cleaner living environment, more money making opportunity, and protected human rights. sounds like the rest of the human on this planet.

        • Guest23

          People want change so they can get a better chance at life but the establishment won’t allow it cause of fear but are just too stubborn, that’s just about most of human history,

        • the ace of books

          I think, about the living space/work environment, that those’re sort of common sense. In China it’s cities, cities, and country; most “houses” are apartments, flats, or efficiencies. Compare that even to townhouses in the States, or to, hell, country homes in Europe, and the living space just expands exponentially.

          (I’d also argue that with increased living space and elbow room, stress decreases. Plenty of studies been done that support that.)

          • DavidisDawei

            The photo in a previous story showing the great wall packed full of people was a bit disturbing…I would never get used to such crowding.

          • the ace of books

            It is pretty painful. I couldn’t do their university dorms – 4-6 people in a room? I have a friend who’s told me: all five of his roommates snore.

    • Brett

      Even the students who stay and open a small Chinese food restaurant overseas make more money than they would owning a business or working for a big company back home. Working at McDonald’s in the states would earn them as much money as a city job… Maybe more.

      • Probotector

        Yeah, but that’s due to standards of living. However the correlating cost of living would be equally high, so it’s not like they could necessarily enjoy a higher salary.

      • DavidisDawei

        It never ceases to amaze me, wherever I go, there is at least one Chinese restaurant. I have been in the middle of nowhere and if there is a sizable town, there is a Chinese restaurant. I have a friend in China who doesn’t believe me so wherever I have gone, I take a photo and send it to them –
        Thankfully for me, where I live, they have the best ginger sauce I have ever tasted.
        I thought the food in China would be the same (until my first visit) – haha – what a shock to find out otherwise.
        My first time in a bar was at a Chinese restaurant (they accepted my fake ID), they made the best headhunters. The owner would bring over family from China and have them work in the restaurant- most of them transitioned out of there – but I got to know one guy who came over when he was 15 and he was still there 15 years later; but his English went from nothing to excellent – unfortunately, this was before I ever went to China and didn’t ask him about his journey and that arrangement.

    • ADN MLS

      I would only disagree with the point about purchasing power, which is definitely not 1 to 1. If the exchange rate is ~6RMB:1USD, buying power is, or at least i’ve heard, 3:1. Anecdotal evidence for this: teaching at an international academy in Tianjin, making 10,000RMB a month equates roughly to 20K USD a year, the lifestyle of which (granted, this is in TIanjin) equates to roughly a 60K USD job in the states.

      Also LoL at number 9

      • Rei Yu Tian

        Hello,
        I didn’t mean currency exchange. I guess I should have put it better. Lets say a Calvin Klein shirt cost 80 usd, the person making $3,000 can buy around 38 of them, very reasonable proportion for the income right?

        In china the person making 3,000 rmb has to pay 1,500 rmb for the same shirt. Which means they can only buy 2 of them, so my point was that the cost of goods is not proportional to the income.

        I’ll go fix my original post. Thanks for the point out bro~

        • Cauffiel

          Who the fuck is stupid enough to buy a CK shirt for 80 dollars???? ;-) :-D

          • Rei Yu Tian

            People that don’t wait for sale and buy sticker price~ XD

          • Cauffiel

            Seriously… isn’t CK cheap now? I know it used to be a high end brand in the 90s, but they scaled to Costco and other big box retailers…. last time I saw CK clothes they were under 20 bucks.

          • moody

            well the fake CK shirt cost about 80 RMB so i m pretty sure you can actually buy the same nbre of CK shirts in China.

          • My sentiments exactly.

          • Riddler

            Eattots boyfriend.

        • the ace of books

          Yo, I like your reasoning, but I do have a correction for it:

          In the Zhongguo, a CK shirt’s cost will be a little more in line with the salary – instead of 1,500kuai, it’ll be something more like 200-400 (unless they’re superbly expensive – if you’ve seen shirts that are 1,500kuai, feel free to correct me on this). So you’re using the Chinese salary (3k块) with the US price (80$). With that sort of comparison, your calculations will be off by a bit, since Chinese going abroad will, logically, be able to buy very little. (It’s why foreigners coming to China are able to buy so much, and why they’re cheated so often.)

          I’d say that, as far as I’ve seen, costs in China are fairly proportional to the incomes – it’s jsut that luxury goods are hugely out of reach for 90% of hte population, and the 10% that can get them is as rich as a foreign-salary-converted-to-kuai person.

          • Jahar

            oh man, a pair of levis jeans are like 1000rmb here. polo shirts as well. Western goods aren’t cheaper at all.

          • Kai

            I don’t think Ace said Western goods are cheaper, but that the CK shirt doesn’t cost 1500 RMB but more like 200-400 (I’d say higher, but it depends on the shirt). I think most Western brands have RMB prices that are similar to their USD prices, though arguably even a bit higher sometimes. The point is that Western goods take a bigger chunk out of prevailing wages here in China than they do for Westerners in the West.

            I hope Ace was pointing out that there are alternative to Western brands in China and that’s where there are plenty of goods that are proportional to the incomes. Frankly, there’s a good argument that the cost of many goods is inflated by pricing for the brand and not the actual cost of materials/labor/quality. If you want to buy a shirt, it doesn’t have to be CK, won’t take as huge a chunk of your monthly wages, and it can still be a decent shirt, or even better. It’s all about shopping and your personal preferences.

          • iphoneman

            Just a simple example Iphone 5s, 64Gb, price in the U.S us$ 850, price in China CNY 6200.

          • Kai

            Yeah, I just bought one in China at the China price as a gift because after a ton of research, I still couldn’t be absolutely sure that I could get a fully unlocked one from the States where it would’ve been like 100 bucks cheaper.

          • Riddler

            ‘Unlocked’ hahahahaha!

          • Riddler

            Shit Kai, that last paragpragh? Despite me apparently being a ‘dick/fucker’ i’d love to meet up and reason with you. You are one deep dude. We would disagree yet find vibes.

          • guest

            and it may be from the same manufacturer who makes shirts for CK

          • the ace of books

            Yep, you’ve got my gist. See comment, where I elucidate, but you got my idea.

          • the ace of books

            Balls. Left a long-ass comment, but the system ate it. Going to try to rewrite it:

            Perhaps it’s because I live in Harbin, but I’ve never seen clothing be that expensive. I generally see clothes in the 100-400 range, with a bit above that for coats &c.

            I’ve never shopped ridiculous-high-end, like Gucci or Prada or whatever, but I’ve gone into a Levi’s, just out of curiosity, and the prevailing prices were 300-500. And when I walk into Levi’s and see 400 for a pair of jeans, I’m gone.

            I think the thing here is that, if you live in a first-tier city, you’re going to get a first-tier salary; if you don’t, you’ll have lower. When your salary’s in the range of 10,000+ kuai, you can handle 500-100kuai pieces of clothing. When you’re getting 3000 or 5000 a month, then 400 for a piece of clothing is already crazy talk.

            There’s plenty of shops I do my own shopping at that provide perfectly good clothing at reasonable prices – Giordano, Kama, Yishion, all in the 100-300 range. H&M, I think, is smack in line with the salaries here, and Esprit’s doing pretty okay.

            I figure it’s that when people have brand name recognition, they feel like they can charge higher – but they’re not the ones that’re going to last here. It’s the companies that sell in line with salaries – affordable, decent-quality goods – that’ll be the most successful.

          • Jahar

            Maybe Wuhan is just different, but any real western name brand is going to be costing me 10%(at least) more than back home. Sure you can get cheap crap cheaply, but not the real name brand goods.

          • maybeabanana

            That’s why H&M is so sucessful…but the quality has quickly dropped since and prices raised a bit. I stopped buying their stuff a long time ago. Giordano on the other hand is pretty awesome, I still have a duffle bag 10yrs old. Too bad I can’t buy their pants anymore. They are like the REI here except reasonable.

          • Install grease monkey and lazarus already!

          • DavidisDawei

            I was surprised when I went to China, I wanted to buy a cheap pair of shoes and pants. I buy them in the USA. If I go to a store (not a street vendor) in China, their prices are higher than what I would pay at a box store in the US. (Plus, I find better style and my size easier).

            I don’t wear designer clothing – so perhaps that is priced differently?

          • the ace of books

            Well, I think it depends here you go, and whether it’s a bargaining place.

            Places I can rec that have mostly-Western-sized clothing (which is why I go there): Kama, Yishion, Giordano, Esprit, ?H&M, Uniqlo.

            Places you can bargain: usually underground malls (or street malls, for those who don’t live in Heilongjiang) you can talk the price down. Jeans shouldn’t be more than 200, 300. More than 300, walk away. Ditto shoes. I’ve gotten decent knockoffs for 240 or so, and excellent kick-around shoes for 80. (and that was in Beijing – it’s possible!)

          • DavidisDawei

            Thanks for the info – I did find a pair of dress shoes at a Walmart bargain bin in Jiaxing – (3 foot cube) filled with shoes. Took me 20 minutes to go thru them all (and find a pair), but found a beautiful set for only 5 kuai; they lasted 6 months; used a couple times a week.

      • DavidisDawei

        USD to RMB was close to 9 to 1 my first time in China.
        I went home and tried to open up an account and buy Chinese RMB, but was told it was illegal at THAT time.

        I have listened to discussions on how China is going to announce its gold position for the first time in 2014; and that would signal their official attempt at overthrowing world dependence on the dollar; which would strengthen their currency.There are those who talk about the USD losing world reserve status, then the dollar might not be buying as much.

        I have trouble imagining that will happen so quickly. I have not seen anything else ready to fill those shoes – I could be wrong – the system is rigged anyway

    • Cauffiel

      Pretty good list.

    • moody

      Not sure if i simply am in a disgreeing mood today or what but here goes
      1-Wrong, should use purchasing power, wages only mean very little
      2-Wrong, at the moment, the employment situation is pretty stuck -in old europe at least- , and i beleive it is easyer for a Chinese having studied overseas to land a decent paying job in China that it is for example in Europe.
      3-I definitly agree
      4-Wrong again, once the tax collector has collected his due, you are not left with much in the west.
      As for living in NY, where exactly do you plan to rent ?
      Consider an equivalent location for housing in a major city of China, i’m pretty sure comparatively, you ll be better off in China.
      5-mmmm that’s partialy true.
      6-Fresh out of school don’t really buy luxury goods, or at least not with their money.
      7-….
      8-agree
      9-very good point
      10-True but what of the ethic of it’s people ?
      In China, The Vegi seller might try to screw me a few RMB, the Taxi might rig his meter, the crowd might push me to get into the subway before i can even step down , a business supplier might lie or try to cheat me, but I do feel rather safe in China, the wife can come back late from work and i don t worry, and i ll feel less worried for my kid once he’ll start school and have to come back home on his own.
      here it’s the air and the food that kills you, but the people themself are pretty ok

      • DavidisDawei

        NYC is expensive – I have a friend who lives in a closet (that is what I call it) and pays $2500/month
        I looked at apartments in Shenzhen a couple months ago and a “nice” place is asking around $1000/month.

    • fhfhfh

      from a financial standpoint, it makes sense. university tuition is very high for foreigners in the us. school for many has become more or less an investment, not so much for education in life knowledge. so in order to pay off your school loans or (for the wealthy families) earn income in excess to your investment, it makes sense to work in a country where salary is higher.

      btw, i’m not sure $3000 would afford you to live “very comfortably” in nyc. i hear rent is crazy expensive there.. something like +$1000/mo for a room

    • Germandude

      11. Laws that are applicable and protective for everyone.

    • Jahar

      10 points for Capt. Obvious.

    • Very good ones. Rule of law, another.

    • DavidisDawei

      Clean Drinking water is tops for me in China (and in the USA too)

      The first thing I like to do when I get back to the USA from China is to drink a large Cold glass of water from the faucet (and without having to boil it).

      I was in DaPeng earlier this year and met a guy on the street who I had asked directions from. He took me to the coffee place and bought me a coffee and then bought me lunch. But anyway, I spent a few hours with him and he told me all about what he did. He was an investigative reporter who was there to research the huge rise in cancer cases; that had been linked to drinking water. He was there to meet with local government officials. He was confident this would be addressed and cleaned up as result. I hope he is right.

      Amazingly, some people spend more on water than energy and is something many of us take for granted.

      • maybeabanana

        Because they spent so much on industrialization of material things that they forgot ???

  • Guang Xiang

    Nah, China’s a lot more funnier if they continue to lose talents. Where else would we get floating officials, news article on sexiest man alive 2012, or accidental use of parodied movie posters?

  • Beijinger

    This is a sensationalist fluff piece.

    A lot more people who have studied and lived abroad are returning to China than ever before. This is a non-issue.

    • Jahar

      what does that even mean? More people are also not returning than every before. more people are going abroad than ever before.

  • nqk123

    Money and career are not always the case: environment, laws and orders, society behavior, etc. most people just want to feel safe. many international students remained for those reasons

  • linette lee

    I am glad China is losing talents. People who are talented and intelligent with an open mind will suffer from severe depression living in China system. No room for them to grow or achieve. They need to leave China and live in other countries with gov’t system opposite China. Let those with brain of scientist, engineering, doctors, researchers…etc move to other countries where they can develop their full potential. They need to stay there if they want to achieve.

    • Robert Rou

      Completely ridiculous. The NSA/GCHQ has been doing vast surveillance on all Chinese in western countries for a while now, not because they are terror threats, but because it is the easiest way to harvest their skills and labor. The fact that you mention science, engineering, medicine, and research is completely laughable because not only are they the most valuable skills to society, but many Chinese don’t even realize how completely under threat they are and their life’s work is being stolen right before their eyes.

    • Cauffiel

      Haha, like you, right Linette? ;-)

    • Germandude

      Again, you are arguing with reasons that you have heard/read/seen somewhere. And you are generalizing again. I must assume that you are getting your picture of China through chinaSmack (and its commentators), some high quality documentations from the Discovery Channel, History Channel and the BBC.

      When was the last time you have been to China? And did you ever stay for more than a 12 day vacation?

      See, I think you are a funny person and often give interesting thoughts about social topics such as the “stone monument” topic from the other day.
      Taking your opinions about Chinese society or economy as sth with quality is like me running to the stock exchange, investing into shares of “Guangzhou Golden Baijou” because a bar girl in Shanghai has told me it was the next big thing…

      • Probotector

        Why do you like having avatars of someone giving the finger so much?

        • Germandude

          The answer is my avatar ;-)

          • Probotector

            Okay, that one didn’t even make sense.

          • Germandude

            Ok. Whenever I am discussing, I am having an opinion about the topic. Convince me of your opinion (or share mine) in a normal way, you know, like with reasons, examples etc, and the finger will change (like in the pic below).
            If you think you win a discussion/argument by shouting louder, well then my avatar comes to play.

            Question for you: Why are you asking and is it offending you?

          • Probotector

            No, just noticed it, so I wondered what your penchant for them is. I don’t care about your opinions, say what you will. Why are you angry?

          • Germandude

            I forgot to edit my post above: I don’t mind leaving an argument without being convinced or convincing the other party, as long as the person I discuss with can bring reasons/follows an understandable line of thought, for their opinions. That’s fine as well.

            Why I am angry? Nationality. We tend to be pessimistic and negative.
            Actually, I am a rather friendly and nice guy to hang around with.

            PS: You seem to be one of those guys that I don’t necessarily always agree with, but respect your arguments most of the time.

          • DavidisDawei

            Why I am angry? Nationality. We tend to be pessimistic and negative.

            You must change when you drink beer?
            I was just in Munich during Oktoberfest and the Germans know how to throw a party!

          • Germandude

            I wasn’t 100% sure if Probotector is trying to troll me on this one, that’s why I replied like that.

            In general, Germans are pessimistic and negative. But we can be funny and throw great parties or world cups ;-)

            Have you been somewhere else than Munich? Because Munich is not Germany. It’s the capital city of the transit country between Germany and Austria… lol

          • DavidisDawei

            No, have not explored much of Germany yet; drove from Paris to Frankfurt a couple times; stopped in several towns along the way.

            I diverted to Munich because it was the last night of Octoberfest and I’d never gone. I wandered into one of the beer halls and met some very nice people (photo below) and didn’t see a single fight all day or night.

          • Germandude

            So you had good fun. That’s great.

          • Paul Schoe

            wow David, I am impressed that you blurred out the eyes. Good job, before the pic goes viral.

            (I am Dutch,it is still our ambition to have a bigger party then the Germans after a World Cup, but alas,no reason to do so yet)

          • Germandude

            “it is still our ambition to have a bigger party then the Germans after a World Cup, but alas,no reason to do so yet”

            Never gonna happen ;-)

          • Paul Schoe

            You realize that I had no choice then to vote your remark down!

          • Germandude

            I don’t mind. Downvote this one too.

            Dutch world championship in football is still not gonna happen in my (assumed) lifetime. That means 50 years. If I am wrong, let me know when you are in Holland. I will invite you for a beer. Anything but Heineken though!

          • Paul Schoe

            That’s OK, I easily settle for a Grolsch

          • DavidisDawei

            Hey Paul,

            I went there without any expectation, but because I met these folks, had a night to remember for the rest of my life; very gracious people to take me into their group.

            That would be a tough party to top, but you should have fun trying!

          • In my village…..high five!

      • Germandude

        @ linette lee since I cannot reply to her directly because it says her comment is awaiting moderation:

        I don’t watch discovery channel or porn. Discovery channel and History channel are not quality TV. BBC has good documentaries but is often biased.

        I also don’t go to those bars with drinking girls, just used that as an example.

        So:

        Fact 1 is: You have never been to mainland China
        Fact 2 is: You base all your knowledge and impressions of China on “chewing gum info”. Meaning, sth that others already filtered for you. No own experience.
        Fact 3 is: You don’t know anything about the topic that you commented on and I rightfully pointed that out.

    • KamikaziPilot

      I’ve always thought you were a borderline genius Linette. Please stay in the U.S., don’t defect to China (or Hong Kong).

  • Robert Rou

    Who tried to ban me again???

  • the ace of books

    Awful lot of good comments on this one, and an awful lot of daring, to be able to say them. Netizens know why this phenomenon is occuring, but the fact that they’re able to imply or outright say why is constructive, I think, for Chinese online discussion. The Ace Approves!

    As to the article itself: a lot of this comes down to incentive. In a country where rewards are few, the incentive to come back, or to work and struggle, is very low. Incentive goes up as perceived reachable rewards go up. You wanna work for what you can get. If you can’t get anything, why work for it?

    That’s actually my answer to the “talent” question, too. It’s not that China doesn’t have talent – Chinese people have bags of talent, variously distributed through various individuals. The problem comes when that talent’s not able to manifest itself. When it’s quashed from the beginning, or never allowed to grow. When an “art” class means “the history of some various things”, and when a “writing” class means “you must practice your essay formats”. When creativity is actively discouraged in favour of competition, then “talent” doesn’t have a chance – it wimpers and goes to sit at the back of the class.

    • Germandude

      I see you are a mod now? I hope you allow our discussions to grow and manifest our opinions ;-)

      • the ace of books

        I am indeed a mod now! My fairy modmother came down and bestowed me with modlike powers.

        And I certainly do intend to, yes! I love a good discussion – it’s why I come to cSmack. And yep, manifesting your opinion is perfectly okay, as you as you’re respectful and decent about it!

    • DavidisDawei

      I have a friend in Hangzhou, China who is a game/software developer and he is required to work, work and work. He goes in early and comes home late at night – 6 days and sometimes on Sundays.
      It is OK if you choose to do that, but it is mandatory for him and his compensation is not great for the time invested.

      I used to supervise 400 unionized workers, all making the same wage, but for a percentage of these folks, there was little interest to generate maximum effort/productivity and the union protected them.

      Two extremes…

      • asdfasdf

        that’s actually not limited to China, game companies or software companies always have overtime. Believe me there are lot of companies in Vancouver, BC that operate like sweatshops. Don’t believe the bullshit about it being limited to Asia, horrible working condition is a reality in Vancouver with lower pay than the national average with inflated real estate market (thanks to Chinese capital).

        • DavidisDawei

          wow – heard about the Canadian property bubble, but I’ve only heard good things about Vancouver. You are correct – I would have never imagined sweatshops being there, but like you implied, everything is relative.

          I have friends who are in the software industry in the USA and their working conditions are awesome. They work a lot, but they also play a lot

  • Washington Bullets

    There are lots of reasons for this phenomenon. All the things that people bitch about on this website say enough. China is also attracting talent though from around the world too though.

    If somebody is brilliant, then why should they hold themselves back?

  • RickyBeijing

    There’s actually an incredibly simple answer here.

    Chinese people hold foreigners in higher regard than they do their own. Because of this, a foreigner can come to China and do the exact same job as a Chinese graduate could do, but get paid double, triple, whatever they want for it, and the Chinese company will pay it because they are foreign.

    That’s why…..Now shut the fuck up.

    • KamikaziPilot

      Sad but very true. A lot of Chinese are shamelessly ashamed of who they are.

      • Jahar

        I’m with you on true, but I don’t think it’s sad. Based on the people I’ve worked with here, we have earned the double and triple or whatever we get.

        • KamikaziPilot

          If you’re talking about professionals (engineers, bankers, architects, sales managers, etc.) you’re probably right. After all the reason, they’re probably in China is because they have some skills the Chinese do not. But I think the subject of Ricky’s post are people like english teachers and others who get hired based solely on their white skin without any qualifications whatsoever. In that way China is a sad society and as a result I have little respect for Chinese society in general.

      • Robert Rou

        No you are wrong. We are proud of who we are.

        • Riddler

          Hahahahhaa!

        • KamikaziPilot

          Actions speak louder than words. Of course I’m generalizing, not all Chinese are like this, but far too many of them are, at least compared with other races/ethnic groups.

  • maybeabanana

    I just want to point out that most students that decided to stay pose less benefit for the country itself. Take the US for example, they huddle in the same area and make their own little Chinatown instead of really trying to be American. They definitely don’t vote as often as they should. And if they do vote, they tend to bring their socialistic ideals and vote for government handouts. Even the educated ones bring their bad habits, don’t meddle in other’s affairs, sisconcerning apathy, and other face saving tendencies.

    In the name of selfishness they come. Outside of the box, I am not sure what benefits they bring to the table besides competition to the existing citizens, taking scholarship distribution that is on the school/govt dime. and probably willing to take lower wages for work thus reducing the market expectations. These kids has a sense of wanting equality and freedom for themselves but unwilling to fight for it on their own, or for the country they promised citizenship for. That’s a very general stereotype of FOBs that I have seen, talent or no talent when their mommies and daddies work so hard to get them here.

    • lonetrey / Dan

      I can see what you mean. I really disliked the International Asian cliques in college because it was so obvious and so pronounced. And when I met a genuinely friendly International Asian student, they were always my favorite because of their willingness to network and open up to ideas.

      But what can you do. It’s America, land of the free-to-stick-in-groups.

    • Washington Bullets

      In contrast to your argument, but not necessarily contradicting it, many Chinese whose families have been here for a long time (100 years) seem to lean right on a lot of political issues, fiscally, but not necessarily socially. One reason for this may be that the older generations within their families have seen the way economic freedom has worked for them and has granted them opportunity through their own hard work.

      I grew up in Central Virginia and there were many Chinese-American families that were very much a part of the community and contributed to the social setting in the school system and community meetings, not asking for handouts or excluding the natives, while retaining their language and celebrating Chinese holidays. Very pleasant neighbors I must say. I don’t know if they are an exception to the rule, but their family has also been here for quite a while.

      • maybeabanana

        Yes of course. I have one friend that is ABC and he more white than Chinese and whom has acted more in favor to logic than his cultural background. My cousin for example, who is pretty Americanized, pretty much an ABC went to the best Ivy league still on one sense proObummer. So you will find various outliers of American Chinese. But generally, a lot of the chinese population in a city like NYC is going to be pro socialism and voting in a self serving sense and beyond logic.

        • Washington Bullets

          Isn’t that almost any New Yorker though? :P

          Go to any college campus and attempt to decipher the constant drone of action-less political whining and you’ll see a rainbow of impotent causes and devotees to them.

          • maybeabanana

            Ha, indeed NYC is socialist by nature whether they disagree or not.

          • Washington Bullets

            I do like New York though. I like how New Yorkers don’t get into each other’s business. DC is far enough south for everyone to be that weird southern “fake nice”, while still feeling entitled to tell you all about how they think the world should be run.

          • linette lee

            New yorkers are like that. They seems to be more cold on the outside but I assure you they are just as nice as anyone outside new york. NYC is all hustle and bustle. Everyone is so busy with their own business.

          • linette lee

            I wonder why would anyone complain about Chinese coming to USA and build businesses. So they build businesses everywhere Chinatown but tons of non chinese work and shop there. Isn’t that’s what boost the economy? Creates new jobs, brings in foreign investment and helps make a significant cumulative impact on the Usa economy? And all businesses have to pay tax to usa gov’t. USA gov’t continue to get tax money from businesses. The same thing when people buy properties. Even after you pay off the properties you still have to continue to pay property tax to usa gov’t. A small lot can cost you usd$20,000 just on property tax alone annually. The gov’t want to see people paying property and business tax.$$$$$ They don’t want their lands to be like ghost town no tax to collect.

          • maybeabanana

            Chinatown creates new jobs that are still low wages for the newcomers and usually hiring Chinese. Pay can be under the table, and taxes can be manipulated. There is a lot of Asians but it seems doubtful that there is “significant” impact. If you understood businesses and how much they are heavily taxed AND they are still making a profit, you would know that corners being cut has to come out of somewhere unless the owners are paying the employees fairly. Little supermarkets, and little businesses creating a few cashiers, stock boys, delivery guys is NOT significant by any means in comparison to the population. I’ll give you land tax as some sort of hold and usually most Asians either buy it to develop it or to live if they are wealthy enough to afford the ridiculous price per square feet in NYC for example. Either way, they are dumb enough to submit to owning a house and paying property taxes for the rest of their lives is up to them. They obviously calculated that its somehow beneficial and that they could afford it..even if some really couldn’t. I think you have heard of this Chinese motto: With a big long debt, you have a long life to pay for it. So they are willingly putting themselves in debt just so they can own that house, and to me that is such a sad way to subjugate oneself. Anyway, obviously, NYC is never going to be a ghost town so making that a reason is nill.

          • maybeabanana

            That was back when there isn’t this mountain of laws and regulations. That was also an era of creativity and infrastructure building that needed talents.

      • whuddyasack

        Actually your observations are interesting and not exactly exceptions to the rule. I know plenty of Chinese, including relatives who are very conservative. I’ve also noted that conservative Chinese tend to be older, the younger the Chinese, the more pro-equality, pro-homosexuality, pro-immigration they are. They’re like modern Asian hippies and often criticized for being too “Americanized” or “Westernized” without an identity, the criticisms not always coming from other Chinese. Surprise, surprise.

        There are of course some exceptions, and personally in my case, I find such people great friends and wonderful to be around. My only concern is that they also tend to be naive, and easily taken advantage of. At a time when all other races are too busy fighting, hating and killing themselves and each other in Western societies (refer Muslim, Blacks, Hispanics and Europeans); I fear for their safety.

        The phrase “nice guys finish last” was invented for a reason. People are vicious, and it’s unfortunate that “people-pleasing” Asians don’t realize this.

    • linette lee

      You just made a very ignorant racist remark about Chinese. You are absolutely wrong on this one. What makes you think 2nd generation Chinese are any different than 2nd generation Irish or Italy? They are all Americans. What is America? Who are the Americans? The land built by immigrants around the world. People all around the world have been coming to America for decades for job opportunities to build their family. Of course there will be competition. Competitions bring improvement and prosperity. The driving enforce behind the success of a nation. USA has the most talents of everything. They attract talents. They attract foreign money investment.

      IF you feel the new Chinese immigrants are competing for jobs, well most of them stay within their own community working for other Chinese bosses. The same thing like the Spanish or Russian people and their community. No difference. If you feel you are competing for jobs with the 2nd generation Chinese, what about other 2nd generation americans? You accusation don’t make sense.

      • maybeabanana

        Okay… I think you may have used the wrong word … I think the word you are looking at is bigot. I am refering to the Chinese students that study here and decided to stay, I did not say that it is my only gripe versus the rest of other ethnicities. Same thing for other Asians, Mexicans, Blacks, whites with similar status coming over. I dislike them all equally but anyhow, you seem not to understand the current situation and economy so I’ll break it down for you.
        1. America was created under the constitution with freedom and was a land of the opportune. Look at it now, with increase immigration/population, it is never good for an economy based in banking and debt. Look at the NSA stuff that recently bursted even though spying has been around since 1900s. It is no longer the land of the free and of opportunity.
        Which leads to…back in the days when the states just got started, people coming in, doing business, developing infrastructure… that is all great and dandy. But the US now is saturated, not as bad as China, but we have a huge debt that will increase as more and more people coming in that is taking rather than giving. I’m going to say DUHHHHH, even you said it, they come here for better opportunities.. because their own countries aren’t profitable. So how could they possibly bring in more money but rather send money home? Come on you know the typical Chinese worker, come here work hard as hell and sends all the money home. I’ve worked with a Chilean that sent most of his money home to Chile to support his extended family. Now only a few select talents can benefit the states, but you think the majority are all PHD smarties that’s going to create good competition? I think you don’t know which kind of competition you are even talking about. Creativity, yes. Realistic labor with a college degree, not so much.

        1a. Now as for foreign investments?!?!?!! HAHAHAHAH you got to be kidding me. (If there is any real investments, bet you my bottom dollar it ain’t going to the citizens or anyone else but that 1%) If anything major companies like Apple, Google, etc are all having off shore companies because they are trying to profit and steer away from the taxes to the govt.

        Ever heard of Bitcoins? The reason there is a black/market for them. One of the many reasons is because pretty much a lot of countries are angry at the US and the way our govt has controlled the dollar. They are trying to get away from it and guess what, the govt is taking a huge effort trying to crack down on it. You better look deeper into foreign investments coming in to supposidly benefit the US. People invest because they want a piece of the pie from the US, not put more in without expecting a bigger return.

        2. You seem to think I am racist against the Chinese coming in versus other Russians and Spanish. Like I said above, it’s not and also realize that not everyone has the rights to every and anything. Look at why the Republicans have an issue with Mexicans coming in. There are some pretty legit reasons despite how you want to act all humanitarian and glossing over the real issues.

        Now that it is clear to me you are kind of a clueless socialist, I really want to just treat you like an idiot because you acted out like one. I only bother to give a breath because you seem to stick around long enough and seem like you care. Other wise I really wouldnt need to explain myself to you.

      • maybeabanana

        Oh one last thing, I hope you don’t believe Abe Lincoln free the slaves because he is such a great man. Lincoln freed the slaves because the North can get an increase in army size and also because the South wanted to seperate. The North had to find a way to deter the success of Southern growth in trades while the North was Industrializing. The way to do that as Lincoln has done was to create the sense of freedom and equality when their real aim was to immobilize the success of the south. When America formed, they weren’t expecting this to be a melting pot, otherwise they probably wouldn’t have killed the Indians. They brought in other races like Africans so that they can have slaves for labour, That was more like a slogan to have incentives for other countries to come in and work like slaves for peanuts in trade for opportunity. Thats why you hear ‘gold mountain’ as the Chinese rush in to build the railroad. You really think it was opportunity when in that era there is ACTUAL racisim, sexism and all the other injustice. I hope you learn something today instead of just really ignorantly blurt out stuff you didn’t look too much into.

        • maybeabanana

          Your point is wha???

    • asdfasdf

      You speak the truth but you can’t blame these kids, their parents give them money and sports cars, it’s typical of any rich kid, they are apathetic because they are comfortable.

      You are right about lack of contributing to the country they arrive at, but really they probably spend a lot of money in that economy.

      I do feel that it will take some time for them to naturalize, but you are right in that the benefit they bring to the host country besides money is questionable, especially when they are unwilling to assimilate and not respect the laws and rules of that society.

      • RagnarDanneskjold

        Yes, but you can secretly laugh at the rich idiots who move to America. The U.S. government owns its citizens. They can no longer open bank accounts in many foreign countries because the U.S. government demands that all information be sent to them, and if it isn’t, they will seize that bank’s assets in America. So most banks decided to kick out all their American customers. America also taxes citizens incomes all over the world. Only a couple other countries do that and one is North Korea. America also does not allow you to renounce your citizenship for money reasons. If you renounce your citizenship for money reasons, there is a huge exit tax. If you haven’t paid your taxes, the IRS can come after you forever, even after you’ve left the U.S. Since the U.S. muscles other nations, you would not be safe in many Western or weak countries, since they’d likely cooperate with U.S. law enforcement. The U.S. will also be very butthurt, and will make it very difficult for you to get back into the country if you needed to visit. You might find you somehow got on the terrorist watch list.

        • guest

          To be fair, the American government also spent a lot of resources rescuing citizens that get in trouble overseas.

          Canada is also doing that now, rescuing citizens AND ‘residents’ who got in trouble overseas, e.g. when Lebanon got bombed, even if the citizens and residents haven’t been in Canada for decades, having gone /home/ after getting their papers, our government is stupid, either cut them off or do what the Americans do – charge them taxes.

  • Clive Rowland

    Come back home and listen to your parents tell you its time to get married and have children asap, or stay in the west and do what the hell you like, when you like? Touch call.

  • TheSOP

    Good deal for the USA! We get the best of the best, they come contribute to our economy and society, often intermarrying with local Americans (my buddy is having a baby with a Chinese girl soon, she also came over on an advanced degree). America benifits despite some social rejects like Rou (who couldnt hack it in the US and was some of the dredges sent back) or second generation socially insecure misfits (whatanut). Overall this is good for the US, Chinese know which political/economic system is better, and they are voting with their feet!

    • maybeabanana

      I am all for dating who you want. I like half breeds as much as the next person, and I will not listen to
      people who say date your own race just for the sake of your family etc
      etc. But when it comes to the topic of races, this will have a negative effect on cultural definitions. This will become a homogenized soup of human interaction and evolution that will destroy the uniquenes of each race for the sake of equality. It’ s like a color palette, with all the intermixing, eventually colors will get diluted and you will no longer see a white, a yellow, a black, etc.

      • TheSOP

        I understand your perspective, and what might be good for the US might not apply so much for Korea, Japan, or some Western European countries. But America is a unique nation which will have ethnic demographics that are increasingly diverse and mixed, and as long as the trend towards East Asian immigration continues it will be for Americas benifit… Western Europe’s immigration situation, the quality and compatibility of their immigrants, is a whole different story and if I was a national of one of those countries I would be pissed. Seems they are intent on wiping themselves out.

        • maybeabanana

          You are right about the intent of most people. Going off a tangent here…People have become so lazy, regardless of race, that they don’t realize they are wiping themselves out. Take technology for example, so many are willing to trade in their responsibility and efforts of being an adult for the sake of money in the case of self driving cars (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9243858/90_of_drivers_would_consider_an_autonomous_car_if_it_cut_insurance_rates ). Sure there are benefits but in general, people are so goddamn lazy that they want to automate themselves to death.

    • Robert Rou

      We know exactly who the social rejects of society are.

      • Riddler

        …..

  • connie

    Article poorly written.

  • Free Man

    Maybe they got kids and compared education systems. I wouldn’t want my kids to go to a chinese school. I heard, teachers there tell kids to go and kill themself.

    • mr.wiener

      ……Whereas people in China hear that students in America kill their teachers.
      I think you can get the best of both worlds, A Chinese school until middle school, then get them out to the west and western schooling before the unremitting weight of school work and gou kao can crush the life and creativity out of them.

      • Cauffiel

        Home or private school’s the way to go.

  • Riddler

    Who in their right mind would return to china? Who? But can you guys head towards America please? There’s way too much spitting going on around Mayfair these days. Oh and, stay away from Harrods please? That is a landmark of London and we’d like it to stay that way.

    • DavidisDawei

      I just traveled thru Eastern Europe and there are Chinese Everywhere (not just tourists)…I was chatting with a Croatian woman and she told me there weren’t any until about 15 years ago and now “they’re everywhere”. I asked her how, why, etc, but she didn’t know
      I have seen this everywhere I have gone…the Chinese are always there, even in some remote/unlikely places.
      The Chinese seem to be able to make their way wherever they end up.

  • YourSupremeCommander

    Smog, pollution, unsafe food products, corruption, lawlessness… please add to my list.

  • Peter Pottinger

    lol you’d have to be stupid to want to go back to china

    • linette lee

      It’s stupid for Taiwan, Hk, or western Chinese people to marry into China. Your parents great grand parents worked so hard to get out of China and you marry back in. hhahahahhaha….lol.

      • Peter Pottinger

        i would love to marry a chinese girl .. in canada haha

      • asdfasdf

        I’m disappoint son.

      • whuddyasack

        A fair point. And Chinese from those countries plus Singapore maybe better off where they are at (of course, this being relative and unfortunate things do happen, even in Taiwan, Macau or Hong Kong.

        What about the Chinese in Southeast Asian (aside from Singapore), Middle Eastern, Balkan, East European and African countries? I think they’re better off in China than having to suffer the insufferable to be honest.

  • Take5

    10 years ago you had to be smart or wealthy Chinese student to get a visa, now its about money. Before a student had to show a bank deposit of 100,000, now it’s less than 25,000. The cream of the crop has been thinned out as far as getting into college. if you have the money you can come. If you want a top job you need to be very smart, but even Chinese college students cheat on test, many will do anything to stay here and i don’t blame them.

  • Lu Xun

    Does it have anything to do with China being an utter shithole?

    No, that can’t possibly be it.

    • DavidisDawei

      – How do you find China to be a shit hole?

    • maybeabanana

      Your books suck.

  • Paneraman

    Cause they can’t resist the freedom that PRC does not have

  • Riddler

    :-)

  • Jessija

    I really wish the asians and muslims would leave the UK and go back to their own countries. Please go back.

    • KamikaziPilot

      And I really wish you would be run over by a truck and live but be paralyzed for the rest of your miserable life. I think my wish has a better chance of coming true than yours. Please step in front of a truck.

    • moody

      I really wish moronic parents would stop “creating” given names like Jessija and think it’s “cool”.
      Kids with such “original” names ends up being bullied in school, the trauma caused pushing them to be intolerant little fucks that desearve nothing more than being draged naked through barb wire and broken glass :-D

    • whuddyasack

      Me too. Likewise for the Muslims, Blacks and Whites dumped onto or fleeing into Asian countries and sapping the locals dry with their shoddy work ethics.

      Actually for the Asians already “naturalized” into “Western” society, I’ve read some better suggestions from other Asians for segregation of the races. Works for me, split Asians from the rest of society and let them succeed and do well. Out of sight, out of mind. Then I wouldn’t have to see people like you whining about Asians in whatever country you come from.

      • Germandude

        Hold on. Last time I checked, Chinese actually PREFER working for western companies in China because they offer better salaries and stick with country’s rules as well as their own company’s global politics. That can’t be said about many Chinese companies.

        The shit you propagate is hatred, nationalism and racism. You know, stuff “young-guns” do when they have difficulties to find their path of life. Or simply shit that idiots propagate.

        • whuddyasack

          Interesting point. I don’t disagree that working conditions in Western companies are preferable for the Chinese, but I fail to follow how you came up to that point.

          When I agreed with “Jessika’s” wishes, “that Asians would pack up and leave the UK” what I meant was that I hope that certain “Asians” can finally call a nation able to provide the incentives to stay ‘home’. This is a possibility since modern Japanese, Taiwanese, HKese aren’t people who emigrate.

          The other point was the quality of the immigrants. While Western countries are free to retain and keep the best immigrants to themselves, the immigrants in countries like China are typically of a lower quality. Compare your average gaijin to your average laowai and you get the picture. Mind you, I don’t mean all foreigners, but unfortunately China is afflicted by “guests” who don’t want to be there.

          I respectfully disagree with propagating “hatred, nationalism and racism” since that suggestion was brought up by other Asian (Americans) sick of the violence perpetrated against them.

          I’m merely agreeing with their proposal since I wouldn’t want them to mingle with people who hate them. There’s a disproportionate amount of interracial violence committed against Asians. I believe those supporting that proposal are simply sick of that.

          • Germandude

            For fuck sake, if you want to discuss, educate yourself on the topic.

            0 ZERO – Z E R O of the guys here that you call laowai are permanent immigrants from the west (guys that will never leave the country again). I bet there are not even 1000 cases of Americans, Europeans, Aussies, Kiwis or Africans, that applied for or received a Chinese citizenship in the last 20 years.

            FOREIGNERS HERE ARE GUESTS THAT ARE WELCOMED FOR???? Now you might want to complete this sentence with your propaganda craptalk or you sit down on your ass and start to think why that is.

            The other day, I just checked it, it was 10 days ago, you wrote: “Many aren’t qualified to teach, have criminal records, do shady businesses, commit rapes, murder and assault. ”

            I ridiculed that, please read again:

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/videos/kill-everyone-in-china-on-jimmy-kimmel-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1100492021

            SINCE YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND IT THAT TIME AND POST THE SAME SHIT AGAIN, LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT:

            If a foreigner has a criminal record, most likely, he will not be issued a visa for China. That’s one reason why foreigners need to APPLY for a visa at the Chinese embassies in their home countries. Background checks is the key word.

            If a foreigner in China doesn’t have a job, he will soon have to leave the country or he will be regarded as an illegal.

            If a foreigner loses his job in China and wants to live from welfare in China (trollolololololol), China will put a stamp on his ass and send him home.

            CONTRARY TO THE NICE AND WELCOMING CHINA, the US, Europe, New Zealand, Australia and many other nations, give shelter to people that escape fucking war zones.

            CONTRARY TO THE NICE AND WELCOMING CHINA, most other countries give foreigners social benefits like pensions, doctor visits, education and tons of support to integrate into the new societies.

            CONTRARY TO THE NICE AND WELCOMING CHINA,
            if someone from a western nation goes abroad and becomes a criminal there, the same person will be taken back to his/her home country and goes to jail (or pays a fine for the damages caused), while China doesn’t give a shit of its people and denies retaking criminals.

            So, to sum it up: I don’t give a shit if you are merely agreeing with proposals or not, you are simply either denying reality or ignoring it.

            Consider yourself a bit smarter now than you were before reading this.

            PS: this is the only free lesson I give you without insulting you. If you continue posting further bullshit and put 99.9% of the foreigners into the same bag as the 0.01% to whom it was applicable, I will continue giving you heat for that.

      • hess

        Yeah, what the all are those laowais thinking huh? not sleeping at work?! Shoddy work ethics indeed

  • asdfasdf

    This is like asking North Koreans, why aren’t you going back to your country after your term is up?

  • Cauffiel

    cS generally is not heavily policed unless a thread starts to get out of hand. the moderators seem to read every last comment, but are pretty forgiving until people start talking aggressively.

    oh, and also…. no porn links, intentional or not. mr. wiener had to bleach his eyes last time.

    • mr.wiener

      I’m prick, but I’m not a fucking prick.

  • Chris Granzow XI

    This is the irony about the west. We let in third world immigrants to take “the jobs we don’t want,” but then we also let in highly-skilled/educated immigrants from asia to take the jobs we do want. It seems the real policy is just to let in as many immigrants as possible, regardless of the reasoning…

  • realist

    This article is far too simplistic. Firstly, it is not China’s best talent that makes it overseas; it is usually the jelly-bellies who have rich parents and don’t wanna duke it out against the real talents in China so they go abroad where school and competition is far less intense. That said, some talents do make it out, and that some of them don’t return immediately after graduation does not mean they are not returning. They often choose to continue their education into higher degrees like a PhD, and then even stay in the US to work for a few more years to gain experience. That is when the real talents split from those who work just to stay alive. The former will realize quickly that as a Chinese person, China is the only place they can develop their full potential whereas the latter group will prefer a softer life and stay abroad.

  • KamikaziPilot

    Your pretty cute yourself, mainly because you’re such an airhead :) Of course it would be okay. Yeah I’d go with you. They’d love you in Japan, hell they’d love you everywhere.

  • al in china

    Wow it’s so simple. Clean air, safe food, good health care, descent job, paid overtime, good bosses, low house prices, low car prices, low luxury brand prices. They realize that money is not the only thing! A healthy life style and just enough money!

  • DavidisDawei

    Thanks for the Photo Lu Mang.

    Not something I’ve seen very often; a Chinese restaurant shutting its doors

  • JMorcan

    As an American with a good education and creative mindset, I would love to live in China and do business from a city such as Shanghai. The reason I don’t, perhaps also the underlying reason native Chinese don’t return, has to do with the appalling conditions. I would rather be dirt poor in the States than to earn a fortune in China and have to endure the pollution, dirt and contaminated food, water and medicine.

  • don mario

    this article didn’t address anything. and it tried to say that chinese staying overseas may not be the smartest or most skilled.. wtf? i was expecting to find out the reasons students don;t wanna go home.

  • bert

    China’s a toxic dump. Everyone knows it. If you can live in clean air why come back?

    • Strelnikov

      I wouldn’t go that far; but yes, it’s like growing up in Pittsburgh in the 1940s and getting a chance to live in a nice part of Paris.

  • bert

    Asia for Asians, Africa for Africans but all white nations for everybody, right? Get bent.

  • guiruliu

    It is purely economic from the students viewpoint and Western countries are desperate for the talent, because domestic students are not interested in science and engineering

  • Who would be willing to return to Hell from Heaven?

    Well then.

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