From Mop:
Chinese origin MM’s heart very pained: On my flight, I reproached French people who discriminate against China!
It was on the plane to Paris, three weeks after the Olympic flame was obstructed in Paris.
Next to me was a Westerner, his companions were also all around me. After takeoff, their conversations helped me determine their identities: a group of French tourists returning to their country.
This American airline company’s route to Europe very rarely has Asian flight attendants. So when an Asian stewardess began providing refreshments, everyone was surprised. A French guy sitting near me started his French-style romance, charging the Asian stewardess and saying: “This beautiful young lady is Japanese right?!”
The young lady looked at him and then looked at the five star red flag pin/brooch on her uniform before politely telling him: “No, sir, did you see this? I am Chinese.”
Suddenly without words, his expression cooled, giving people the feeling that he would have continued being enthusiastic had the lady responded that she was Japanese. The stewardess also felt his sudden change, turned her eyes to me, and asked me what I wanted. I used English to reply her.
As soon as the service cart continued forward, that French guy may have felt that what he just did was a little arrogant, and said to me “Sorry, the past few days that flag has been everywhere in France, I truly have had enough! What are they trying to do!”
Without waiting for him to finish, I hurriedly said: “Sorry, sir, I also come from that flag’s country.”
Perhaps he did not expect this, so his expression became a little stiff. He icily looked at me, and then turned to his food before him.
Afterward, as if I did not exist, he and his companions treated this airplane like a Parisian road-side cafe, chatting and drinking, pressing the stewardess call light, opening the window shades of the passenger cabin and allowing the sun to shine in. I controlled my temper, and used my expression and body language to communicate my displeasure, plugging my ears with earplugs in front of them. I need to rest! I politely said to my neighbor: “Can you please close the window shade?”
I truly did not imagine he would answer me like this: “Sorry, young lady, this window seat is mine, the plane ticket was paid with my money, you have no right to request this of me!”
I was stunned for a long time, not knowing what to say! This is the self-proclaimed friendliness, generosity, pursuit of romance and freedom of the French people? So what they were pursuing was their own freedom! I did not want the remainder of my journey to be spent in this kind of atmosphere, and concluded that their inhuman behavior was deliberate against us Chinese. I decided I may not be able to argue with them but at least I can avoid them!
Getting up, I walked to the work room at the back of the passenger cabin, and started a conversation with my distant compatriot. Aside from some small talk, she told me about her work experience. She said that amongst her work assignments, the France route gives her the most headaches because the passengers are too wanton, do not listen to the flight attendants, continue to walk around when the fasten seat belt light is on, that it is common for them to ask for 4-5 things each time they want something, and it is as if they have been wronged if it things are not done this way. Not only this, and perhaps as a result of of smoking, their mouths are very smelly. I said to her that people say Chinese passengers are also very difficult to handle. She said that the route between China and America is 14 hours, the route between America and France is 8 hours, and in comparison, Chinese passenger’s behavior is far better than French people. If French people were to sleep for that long of a time, it would be impossible to enter the passenger cabin [due to bad mouth odor]! She also said that she must admit, America is the country with the best personal hygiene in the world, the passengers basically do not have any mouth odor.
We chatted like this. I told her about what happened with my neighbor. She said, “there are all kinds of people, do not worry, you can come sit in the empty seat in the very last row.”
At this moment, my neighbor and several of his companions also come over! They were probably also tired of sitting. Upon seeing us two Chinese chatting, he provokingly said to another stewardess: “Chinese people are so pitiful, living in a country without freedom, look at the Communist Party’s masterpiece, brainwashing their own citizens, such a large country not allowing other religions to exist…”
At this moment, I could not endure it anymore! I asked him: “Have you been to China?”
“I do not even have the desire to go!”
“Then do not say anything!”
“You have no right to ask this of me!”
“You have even less right to make such personal remarks about what you do not know!”
“Young lady, do not be angry, can you understand why so many young people unscrupulously assemble on other country’s territory, expressing their dissatisfaction with everyone in the country? If this is not having been brainwashed, what could it be?”
“You truly do not understand modern China. Do you know the background these young people grew up in? Let me tell you, they are the 80s generation that were born after China’s reforms. Almost all of them are the only child in their families, whose parents provided them with everything they could. They are a self-confident, self-centered, generation with their own way of thinking, having grown up listening to Western popular music and watching Hollywood movies. They do not feel that they are inferior to others, so when they discover their own motherland being looked down upon by others, without anyone’s incitement or brainwashing, they automatically/voluntarily stood up for the honor of their motherland!”
“Even so, they cannot do whatever they want in other countries? Who welcomed them to come?”
“I think their “page-ant” [probably means march/demonstration] and assembly is legal. Otherwise, the French pol.ice would not allow it.”
“No politics, no politics.” Another flight attendant wanted to break us apart, asking the French guy across from me: “Tell me about the good places in Paris, I want to see museums?”
The French guy’s eyes flashed, and introduced some like the back of his hand before finally saying: “Us French collect precious artwork from various countries in the world, including the home country of these two young ladies–China gave them to us.”
I could not take it anymore, and stared at him: “Why would Chinese people give their own art to your France? They were stolen by your ancestors!”
“Nonsense, us French people would never do this kind of thing!”
“Oh really? Do you know Victor Hugo?”
Surprised, he said: “He is the pride of our people! You also know him?”
I did not understand his surprise, and carefully said: “He previously said in his essay: ‘One day, two robbers came to China and brutally plundered the Old Summer Palace. They killed people, started fires, and committed all sorts of atrocities. The name of these two robbers, one was England, one was France.’ May I ask, who is France? How many Frances are there in the world?”
In the face of my interrogation, he actually said: “Impossible, I am not an uneducated person and I have never known of this kind of thing!”
“Come say that to me after you have gone home and checked the library! A people unwilling to face their own faults has no future. I only admire French people who are like Hugo!”
“A true French person does not buy other country’s luxury goods!” a female companion of the French guy said to me.
Tit for tat, I said: “If you are referring to your LV bags and perfume, why not say this to the English and Americans? You are envying Chinese people! If I am not guessing wrong, a woman like you needs to save for awhile to buy an LV bag. Look at Chinese people, when they buy one, they buy half a dozen or a dozen so of course you are uncomfortable. The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money! If you are a true patriotic French person, why are you flying on an American airline! Go fly your own French airline!”
They started to use French to shout, I was so angry I began to shake, so I pushed aside a path to return to my seat, grabbed my hand luggage, and returned to sit down in the empty seat in the last row all in front of their hateful eyes. At the time, had there been a gun in my hands, I think I would have immediately shot them all! Ignorant arrogant French guys!
That compatriot gave me a paper towel and said to me: “Thank you, without this uniform, I would have been on your side.”
My tears wantonly dripped down, did I win this argument? If I did, why would tears be all over my face? My heart was very chaotic, very pained. For my motherland full of hardships, I pray that she can truly become strong!
Comments from Mop:
野牛与比尔:
When did the 5 Mao start writing novels?
疯草招摇:
Watching politics evolve is like watching the circus,
Just the year before last was the China-France friendship year, but it has become like this now?
What will it be like next year?
Circus and political turmoil, which one does the lou zhu like to watch?
狼族VS天涯:
What you did was very right. I am proud to have a compatriot like you. If I were you, I too would have done what you did. I support the LZ.
felicia2009:
I support~~~absolutely must ding…I do not feel one bit what is so good about foreigners! Especially France.
My geography teacher said, France is an irrational, only knows “romance” country. Not worth mentioning!! Lou zhu, next time it would be better to just pretend you cannot see these people. Ignoring them would be the biggest humiliation!!!
2009伱犯賎錒！？:
Why is our China always disliked, bullied, by people? Why? ~~~ Are our Chinese people bad??
明明白白的痛苦:
No matter if it is true or false, it makes people even more angry!
全面小康:
French people, if you are unlucky enough to encounter them, you can fully understand the French philistine mentality.
Personally speaking, I am more willing to deal with Swiss or Americans.
Jews,
I do not even want to say.
They always think the entire world owes them.
magnichina:
With regards to this MM’s behaviour I express admiration.
I hope all of China’s sons and daughters can be like this! Do not lose your self-respect in the face of foreigners!
splendour83:
Mop friend, most French people are not bad people, only a little mentally retarded.
9NJH:
I am giving my “topic reply virginity” [first time replying to a BBS post] to a beloved person who reveres the motherland. LZ, let me tell you a piece of good news: Our generation will make our motherland strong and powerful, I am sure of it!
厚土黄天:
France, a pompous country~ taught a lesson by Germans twice yet still no progress.
11码:
What he said was not wrong,
Chinese people have indeed been brainwashed.
牛B天天有:
Sigh…France’s appointed president, I still rather like.
This Sarkozy is completely a NB…completely losing all of the French people’s face…letting the world’s people all know that France is also completely insensible and unreasonable country…
w56373511:
First, I will not talk about the authenticity of this post.
French tourists just recently won first place for the world’s most disliked tourist amongst the service industry.
df_llz:
Support. Recently, I have seen many things that have also given me impressions of France that were different from the past. I have decided that after learning French and there is an opportunity, I will refute the French face to face.
Comments from China.com BBS:
红色哨兵:
Our disgrace/shame comes from our elders. I hope it will not happen in the future!
我是你妈二爷:
You stupid cunt. Those studying abroad in France are a bunch of corrupt official’s sons and daughters, including you. Are we Chinese people more wealthy than the French? French people only need to save half a month’s money to buy LV, but Chinese people buying half a dozen each time? If [those Chinese are] not corrupt officials then what could they be? If you are Chinese, then do not buy any French things. Trash begging to be fucked like you must be a French-Chinese [Chinese person with French citizenship]. If you really have the courage, give up your French nationality. Our motherland welcomes you.
我是你妈二爷:
[referring to above comment]
Extremely well-said. Your father being a [corrupt] official within the country [China], yourself outside of the country driving BMW sports cars, going on vacations, being “patriotic”…this kind of life, I would love to just dream about it.
柔士:
France is where freedom originated, so it is normal for French people to enjoy freedom. Lou zhu’s self-esteem in the post was too strong! It would have been better to just treat them as foolish people.
anthonyz:
There is nothing wrong with liking freedom. Also, other people saying that Chinese people have been brainwashed, lied to, and have no rights is not wrong either. You yelling at people on an airplane again confirms that you are ignorant and have been brainwashed, that you have not experienced much outside of the country. Embarrassing!!!
捧场评论:
The most ignorant yet brainwashed idiots are all those double-crossers, those scum and small people who not only do not help their own but build up others with their eyes wide open! A compatriot no matter how wrong is still your compatriot. No matter how civilized an outsider pretends to be they are still an outsider. This should be understood clearly.
守护神@龙:
France is really amusing.
There first lady is a whore.
ssmrh:
Good job~! If all of China’s youth can be more like you, China will become even stronger!
雅木三水:
France did good, extremely good, just great, helping China’s young generation experience the West’s pride and prejudice, helping them wake up and work harder.
sunyang2008:
I can only say that prosperous and powerful China makes ignorant Westerners envious! I support the lou zhu!
UPDATE: Many people automatically believe this story is fake. Are you sure? Please see the original author’s blog posts: 飞机上的爱国架 and 最弄不明白的是人！
飞机上的爱国架
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Très bien!
我 是 法国 人，对不起。
我 爱中国人 ！！
I am French, sorry about that. French people can sometimes be really annoying. Some of them have a poor culture, and unfortunately don’t make the difference between the Japanese and the Chinese, and I think it’s really shocking. The two cultures are very different and are both extremely interesting for different reasons.
I don’t think French people do not like the Chinese. It’s just that they do not know the culture, so it leads to a misunderstanding. For those who are interested in it like me, we think it is amazing and we love it!
Sorry again about these stupid French people who spoiled her airplane trip.
And then the chinese marched into the sea and drowned themselves…what a start that would be.
Why don’t you go play with your lead lined childrens toys drink your toxic milk and dress your babies in flamable sleepwear. I hate unhygienic chinese, I will never eat their filthy food, YES i have been to China, disgusting country, filthy, food with flies and don’t get me started about bathroom hygiene.
The world doen’t need China, AMERICA might, but they just blow up Beijing when they get pissed off with them asking for their money back…stupid chinese lending to Americans who will destroy your country, slowly over time or quickly through military action. poor stupid chinese
Again we find silly a chinese girl saying insulting things to their gracious hosts, you are a guest and should learn to behave as such, remember China does not have a first lady because China does not know how to produce well mannered ladies, eating with your hands, slurping from food bowls, defeacating whilst standing and numerous other cultural embarrasments, learn your manners, know your place and always remember “NOT A CHINAMANS CHANCE” when your in a foreign country and scurry away home
Tis why SirBi has to act crazy all the time.
Because SirBi sees thru the bullshit of it all.
The fundamental flaw with the human race VVV is that we all fail at empathy and cannot see the other side, in the overall scheme of things.
There may be a few break-through here and there… ultimately, we are ALL products of the brainwashing of our upbringings and culture, are the results of our humanities.
We are suck.
Tis why I continuing on being a hermit. And flipping the fingers to each and everyone of you. I’m really sick of you all.
Go f*** yourselves.
“ultimately, we are ALL products of the brainwashing of our upbringings and culture”
You said it in a very negative manner, but basically you got to the point.
It’s sad to see that many people don’t even try to look at things from a NPOV…
Hans, i’m sorry to contradict you on a single point : what is a ‘Neutral Point Of View’ ? Even ‘neutrally’ exposing facts is taking a side… for example, on these 3 sentences, which is the neutral one :
- i had a car accident
- someone crashed his car into mine
- i was involved in a car accident ?
I’m sure you would say that the 3rd one is the most neutral… but if the fact is that someone drunk crashed into your car, how would you expose a NPOV ?
I still got no answer to this question…
oh c’mon now, smile a little.
I’m fuckin serious like a 50 foot blue giant blasting shit with my ***************************
“A compatriot no matter how wrong is still your compatriot.”
Really? Is utter loyalty to nationalism the highest moral standard?
I ask these questions not to question the intent of the poster or of the French (I have had my fair share of horrible experiences with the French), but I do agree with one of the posters above that arguing in a place like an airplane is uncalled for and does it really change their opinion about China? And the comment about the LV and being envious…I have no idea where that comes from it just makes you sound immature and shallow (to be blunt).
I’m with you on this one. I remember an American lady using the “My country right or wrong but my country all the same” quote just a year or so ago and it made me flash with anger. Such simpleminded loyalty is what allows a people to commit the worst crimes and engage in the worst actions. Chinese who like to throw around “motherland” this and that would do well to avoid such blind loyalty
It is very important, I think, to keep in mind that loyalty to a country and loyalty to the current regime running it are not necessarily the same thing. Sometimes to be truly loyal to your country you must even fight against the regime in charge.
Oh, and I agree that French people have horrible mouth odor. It is true!
Indeed, I get angry whenever I hear fellow Americans acting as if what we do is right no matter what. Some of the things our government has done are indefensible, so I hate to see people defending them.
But on the other hand, the strange thing about nationalism is that it proves we’re all the same. Almost everyone wants to be part of something bigger than themselves and for many people, their country is that “something.” So it’s not hard to understand that people want to love their country and I don’t hate anyone for that.
But I do wish that people weren’t so quick to judge people based on their country. And that includes claiming that people have an anti-Chinese (or anti-French) bias just because they disagree with them about something.
I’ve been to France. There are many nice people there, including the people who welcomed me into their home while I was there. There are also rude people. I did my best to speak French, but some people looked down on me. There are all kinds of people in France.
And in China, many people are worried about the corruption in the government. We hear all these stories about people being killed just because they wanted justice and it makes people angry. But I don’t hate Chinese people, I worry about them. If the people cannot control their government, the government becomes dangerous. Just look at the times America’s people lost control and how bad that was…
That’s why we worry about the Chinese people. I’m sure they want to solve their own problems in their own way, but it hurts to have people declare that you’re “anti-Chinese” just because you worry about them. That said, it’s probably because people get angry when they see injustice. So Chinese people only see people who are angry and don’t understand that people are upset because they care what happens to them.
OH please,
People worry about us, by telling us that we have no freedoms and a product of brainwashing… good help that is.
> OH please,
> People worry about us, by telling us that we have no freedoms and a product of brainwashing… good help that is.
China has a lot of corrupt officials and there are a lot of people who would rather defend their country than admit that.
But that proves how similar we all are.
Please read the following link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-467265/Parisians-rude-smelly–say-tourist-chiefs.html
LoL, wow, they actually have a name for it?
This actually reminds me of when Americans started a campaign to educate their own tourists/travelers to be more sensitive to foreign cultures/customs to combat the ignorant American image Americans have abroad.
To be honest, this is the first time I’ve personally ever heard of the French being stereotyped as “smelly” but it appears to be well-known by most others. I guess I’ve just never encountered smelly French before or heard others say so, but its pretty damning when your own tourist chiefs think it is prevalent enough to mention it.
“The Japanese embassy has a 24-hour hotline for those suffering from severe culture shock, and provides hospital treatment for anyone in need.”
Jeebus! That’s the second funniest thing I’ve ever heard! “Take me to the hospital! A smelly French dude wouldn’t help me find the cheese and wine store!”
Keep the comments comin’, it’s time to push the “China does not have any suitable men” thread off the top spot!
It’s quite interesting that – despite the fact that the girl writing is angry about French assumptions about China – she immediately identifies herself as Chinese and them as “Westerners”.
Although clearly the French people are wrong to make such predictable generalisations about the air stewardess or the Chinese government, it’s sad that both parties seem intent on dragging up history and national stereotypes (I mean sorry, dental hygiene?!) to start a fight.
It seems that both countries have a lot of work to do to overcome this rather ugly nationalism.
DWR
That story was, well, just that – a story. Authored by bored fenqing or government lackies, such nonsense tales of imagined prejudice against Chinese are designed to whip up nationalistic feelings when China gets a bit touchy over some victimhood-inducing trivia.
In short: pure moonshine.
It is entirely possible this is a fabricated story made to whip up nationalistic fervor. Hell, even the Chinese netizens seem skeptical (look at the first comment, it was hilarious).
However, I wouldn’t say it is “nonsense.” These mundane but nonetheless aggravating exchanges happen quite often between Chinese and non-Chinese.
If we take the story to be true, I actually thought the girl did a good job actually trying to keep her indignation in check early on. When she actually started speaking up, she actually made some good arguments and was doing well right up to the point she started talking about LV and stealing stuff. You NEVER, EVER, in an argument give your opponent such an EASY opportunity to derail you, and she did it. She should never have crossed from using Hugo to refute the French guy’s ridiculous claim that other countries willingly GAVE their art to France to saying “The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money!” Although more true than the French in context of historical artifacts, it is just TOO easy to think of modern Chinese counterfeit goods, brands, etc. She shot herself in the foot there and it was a tragic ending to what was a good run up.
I’m a little amused that the comments here (on chinaSMACK) all jump on the “oh, this is just whiny nationalistic Chinese again” or “this is obviously fake propaganda” bandwagon, as if it is completely unfathomable that Westerners could be so ignorant, offensive, and discriminatory.
Again, no one, including the Chinese, know if this was real or not, but have none of you actually experienced or witnessed such an exchange? I have TONS of times. Hell, I remember some Europeans arguing with a Chinese girl in a McDonald’s on Huai Hai Lu behind Babyface in Shanghai after a night of partying. It was such a buzzkill. I won’t even go into the exchanges that happen outside of the country.
How likely do you think it is that American Airlines allows employees to wear nationalistic flags or symbols on their exterior uniform while on duty, such as the claimed flight attendant with a Red Star commy pin. Are you serious?
I asked my friend who is a FA with Cathay in HK – no possible way with Cathay. Also, she said that if passengers are arguing a male flight attendant will go break it up, not let girls deal with it, especially if it’s involving another man who is behaving so aggressively.
I find it hard to believe it’s not the case, considering how well liked French men are by their American counterparts..on American Airlines nonetheless. Far fetched, and that’s not even getting to the whole “Excuse me, kind sir *bows*, but [insert bullshit argument here]” kind of storytelling.
1. We don’t know what airlines it is. It could be any “American” airline. I don’t recall it specifying “American Airlines.”
2. The context of the story was that this took place 3 weeks after the Olympic torch relay through France and in the big run up to the 2008 Olympic Games. Many Chinese were probably quite enthusiastic about supporting it, so I can very easily imagine a Chinese flight attendant showing her pride either with or without her employer’s explicit blessing. Moreover, I can imagine her employer seeing nothing wrong whatsoever with their flight attendant wearing a FLAG (not some swastika) as a pin just as many Americans took to plastering US flag bumper stickers and wearing US flag pins after 9/11. Don’t be ridiculous.
3.Not all flights have male flight attendants, and it would be LOUSY protocol for the flight attendants PRESENT at the argument to not say something but rather run off to get SOMEONE ELSE to say it just because that someone else is “male.”
4. This argument was heated, but I don’t think it got aggressive. Nothing suggested they were coming to blows.
5. “considering how well liked French men are by their American counterparts.” Are you kidding me, Rick? That statement of “truth” you just made has about as much weight as this entire story ostensibly about a real argument a Chinese girl had with some French people. I have NEVER heard of any widespread and generally accepted notion that “French men” are “liked” by their “American counterparts” unless you’re suggesting American men like French men “on American Airlines” with some homoerotic subtext.
6. I don’t see how inconceivable it is for a flight attendant to use “sir” or “mister” when speaking to a passenger.
Again, no one is precluding the possibility this is a story fabricated for ulterior motives but the propensity for so many non-Chinese here to dismiss it as obviously fake sounds more like people who are either so lacking in self-awareness or simply refuse to accept the fact that non-Chinese can be so ignorant and offensive. What? Is racism, discrimination, and general self-righteousness only applicable to the Chinese?
There are good solid people on both sides, but there are also hypocrites and ignorant idiots also. Is it so hard to conceive of these people meeting each other on a plane and having a little tiff? Please, get over yourselves. You only need look at the vast majority of comments on this website to know that ignorance abounds and people say stupid shit that offends others all the freaking time. The first step towards coexisting peacefully is to at least have the balls to recognize this fact that not everyone on “your” side is as enlightened as you are. Instead of denying their existence, or accusing others of fabricating, focus on the real issue on how to constructively react or deal with such idiots.
1. American airline company != American Airlines, you’re right, however, that being said, it doesn’t really matter. Airlines have pretty similar standards, and I only referenced the fact that I asked an experienced flight attendant her company’s policy, assuming many other airlines would have similar policies, a policy which *MAKES PERFECT SENSE*.
2. “I can imagine her employer seeing nothing wrong whatsoever with their flight attendant wearing a FLAG” Are you kidding? Do you think nationalism in a public domain during a time when there are obviously heated protests and/or events *around the world* is acceptable by employers in an industry which focuses on public displays of customer service between people of many cultural backgrounds and religions? Ridiculous notion, and I don’t think you have thought it through if you really stand behind that.
3. “Not all flights have male flight attendants” I fly internationally maybe 5 or 6 times a year, and haven’t seen a flight without a male flight attendant. I will ask my friend, but again, I am almost sure it is a policy that they have at least one male flight attendant, or if there is not a male flight attendant they will usually have a co-pilot or another male employee of sorts in the cabin (although on China domestic flights usually just chillin at the front). I don’t know how frequently you fly, but I fly *a LOT*, and recognize these things.
4. It’s not about coming to blows. NOT AGGRESSIVE? The girl apparently (although I don’t believe it’s true) was busting out in tears, and from the sounds of it, many of the arguments were standing up rather than sitting down at their respective seats. This kind of behavior on an international flight will be *diffused before it gets to blows*, not handled once they begin, Kai.
5. If you read my statement regarding french men liked by americans, I was implying that an American (esp a male american flight attendant) would have likely taken the Chinese girl’s side in a potential argument against a french guy because most american men HATE french guys. In the context, I thought the sarcasm was pretty obvious, read it again.
6. “Sir” or “Mister” was claimed by the little girl trying to make her arguments, I don’t think so. From the victims perspective they’ll always put on the mask of “oh I was so ridiculously over the top polite, and they were just being ignorant and brute”..yawn. Notice how every sentence she claims she said starts off with some kind of nicety, and every sentence she claims he says starts off with something condescending? Yeah, that’s how it always happens.
Your soapboxing again, ranting about how every side has ‘bad people’ – who says french people are so polite and infallable? I don’t see that argument being made, I CERTAINLY would not be making it. In fact, although I have (very few, but have) french friends, in general I find them quite distasteful.
1. Good, you haven’t been on planes where the flight attendants actually have nameplates that say where they’re from, have you?
2. By your logic, all of those companies who promoted or advertised their Olympic sponsorship not just in China but worldwide were being ridiculous. Rick, I understand what you’re trying to argue, but I’m just telling you it isn’t likely to have been such a big deal that she wore a pin of her country during a time when many Chinese were wearing pins to express their support of their momentous Olympic year. It would have been a faux pas by the employer to say “even a small pin that shows you’re from China is unacceptable.” Can you imagine the discriminatory backlash and negative PR that could bring to the airline? That an American airline won’t even allow one ethnic Chinese flight attendant to represent her pride in her country in what everyone understood to be an important year for them? What’s next? American airlines forbidding Muslim women from wearing hijab (or head scarves)? I dunno man, it sounds reasonable and CONCEIVABLE to me. If you want to be definitive about it, you can find out which American airline it was and then email the airline representative for clarification. I doubt you will and I’m sure you’re going to continue being self-assured in your conclusion, but I’m just saying that element of the story really isn’t as ridiculous or obviously fake as you say it is. Maybe we have different experiences.
3. I fly plenty, Rick. Don’t you remember that I just came back from Hong Kong for CNY? You dodged my point that it is silly for a female flight attendant to not say something herself to try to calm down an argument and instead run off to find a male flight attendant to do it for her. Rick, why CAN’T a female flight attendant ask any passenger to calm down? Why must she think so much and actually go get a guy to do it for her? That’s ridiculous!
4. I thought the girl cried after the argument when she was sitting alone in her new backrow seat. At the risk of sounding sexist, a girl getting emotional over an argument about discrimination isn’t that difficult to imagine. It doesn’t mean anyone was being physically aggressive so as to need a MALE flight attendant to, you know, exercise some muscles and break things up. If you read the story, the arguments were standing up because the girl had moved to the back to chat with the flight attendant and then the French guys joined the conversation later. Dammit, Rick, read the story carefully before talking out of your ass. While you’re at it, read what I said. I never said they should come to blows and then defused. I simply disagreed with you that the French guy was behaving so aggressively. If I recall from the story, the French guy even asked the Chinese girl not to get angry. If the guy wasn’t being aggressive and they were merely just having a heated argument, why should the female flight attendants who were witnessing it HAVE to go find a male flight attendant? Why can’t they THEMSELVES intervene (as one tried) and say, “hey, come on now, no arguing.” READ the story, Rick.
5. Sorry I missed the sarcasm. It wasn’t immediately apparent to me. Either way, did you like my homoerotic twist? We’re creative, aren’t we? ;)
6. Dude, Rick, she said “sir” ONCE in the entire narrative and it was the FIRST exchange the two had. Again, READ THE STORY. You’re projecting. There is very little in the narrative to suggest she was sugar-coating her politeness or courtesy to the French. She even admitted she argued tit-for-tat in the end. Neither did she make any self-references about how polite she was to them. You’re reaching and trying to create a criticism that isn’t supported by the story. She even explicitly said she didn’t let him finish before interrupting him by telling him she’s also Chinese. There were NO airs whatsoever of her portraying them as being rude and condescending IN RESPONSE to her politeness. You’re pulling that out of thin air.
Rick, I’m soapboxing as much as you are. You’re secure in your opinion and general approach to these topics just as I am. You may think there is something noble in being honest with how you feel even if it offends others, just as I think there is something noble in trying to bring everything back to what I think is the middle and common ground. I think you’re too far off to one side and unfair. You think I’m annoying for trying to moderate and bring perspective.
I didn’t say YOU were saying French are infalliable. I said a lot of these comments make me feel that non-Chinese seem all to eager to say this stor MUST BE FAKE because the Chinese are again playing the victim card, stirring up nationalism, trying to brainwash their masses, etc. and the notion of non-Chinese (compared to Chinese) being rude and offensive is so improbable that the former explanation HAS to be true.
I think the propensity of believing this true or false is inherently subjective based upon your own experiences. You conclude it is fake for your reasons, some of which I think are a bit of a stretch. I, on the other hand, can see such an exchange happening because I HAVE seen them happen. Yet, at the same time and to be fair, I account for the fact that there ARE fabricated stories on China’s forums meant to stir up nationalism or whatnot and I MUST acknwoledge that some elements of the story are suspiciously convenient. My position is consistent with the factors I have considered. I’m not concluding anything about this story’s veracity and I explicitly state my skepticism. However, I also explicitly state that I think the elements of this story are reasonably CONCEIVABLE. Why? again, because I’ve seen it so much.
Maybe you haven’t, and maybe that’s why you think it is all inconceivable “nonsense.” That sucks, Rick, but just try to imagine the discrimination you face in China from the Chinese and reverse it. Believe it or not, it happens all the time.
Good point, I’ve never once seen a flight attendant wearing a flag pin – in fact I’d never once seen anyone wearing a flag pin full stop until I ran into someone who had just flown in from Israel where he lived in the West Bank as a settler a few days ago – certainly not in China.
And you know its moonshine how?
Shhhh…he has to live out his fantasy that every prejudice is just propoganda.
LOL!!! so funny.
I would expect to see this on snopes.com if it wasn’t so convoluted.
I have a difficult time believing that some of these things were said in public. If it’s an exaggeration and not a lie, then I can understand her indignation might cause her rant to get a little colored, as I have felt my anger boil over at the arrogance I perceived the japanese had towards me when I first moved to Japan. What I learned was my education was poor and so were those people who slighted me. Most of us just need to cool down and relax a little. Our pride blinds us to the words that would express ourselves in a way that they might see their own folly. And on another note, I have no idea what it must feel like to be Chinese, but I see no reason for anyone to feel ashamed of themselves or their country. Nor do I feel anyone needs to prove themselves better. Those with power should fashion themselves the weak among people. Your wealth doesn’t come from you alone. All that you exploit for your gain was taken from everyone’s combined heritage, planet Earth, and from the harnessed sweat of poorer less fortunate laborers.
I just want to add, if he said half of what she said he said, then he should have been tossed from the plane with his balls lit on fire. Don’t my last post give you the impression that I think Chinese should sit down and take abuse from people like that. (disclosure) My girlfriend is Chinese, so when I hear something like this, it’s like she was being insulted as well, and I want to punch the shit out of that retard. Oh yeah, be cool. Peaceful thoughts.
Except, as you point out, it almost certainly is an exaggeration, if not a down-right fabrication.
Nationalism – politics for the simple-minded and a handy diversion from the larger forces shaping our world.
This seems a little bit fake.
愤青又在挑衅
This post has filled me with epic rage. The next time I jet to Paris for a week of shopping, I will only purchase a limited number of luxury goods. I will limit myself to two bottles of wine per meal. Finally, I will cut cheese consumption by 15%. That will show the rotten stinking French! I will do this for the Chinese peasant, who will be ennobled by my brave act of patriotism.
you are obviously a french retard. LOL!!!
*cough* I call bullshit.
everything you know is all bullshit anyway, who cares?
National Humiliation manifested at a micro level.
I agree with everyone’s questions regarding the validity of this story… It seems like a bunch of stereotypes merged with the nationalist propaganda in chinese text books.
The smelly, arrogant french men. The westerners staring down at the dignified young chinese girl. Come on.
And if this were true, Why should an asshole of a particular identity represent an entire nation. This is absurd.
and the LV handbag comments are just comical:
“a woman like you needs to save for awhile to buy an LV bag. Look at Chinese people, when they buy one, they buy half a dozen or a dozen so of course you are uncomfortable.The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money!”
No, no. We buy a dozen. of counterfeit goods. of course we do not steal, thats only our counterfeiters.
Oh lord. I think I read a story like this in my 2nd grade textbook once.
perhaps it’s time for you to advance to the 3rd grade now, but on second thought you are still reading stories like this.
Where did she said she bought countfeits? Why shoot all the birds, when only 1 annoy you.Iam a Singaporean, in Singapore we live in peace irregardless of races or religions. Those who only think highly of their own race or themself and pass racist remarks are those with inferior complex who only feel comfortable by degrading others. Just like those kids in the 1st grade arguing ; my house is better, my mom is prettier, my dad is stronger etc… In any races there are good and bad, if not why do you need jails? In China, which is a big country their Govt. evolve with times. and they are doing quite well now, they have the freedom to travel and freedom to do or purchase what they want. Of couse there are restrictions. Like in other countries, each of them have difference sets of laws. If we talk about brainwashs, in all countries all the citizens are brainwashed by the government by propagandas. Only those with higher intelligent will see through .
Laughable.
Self-proclaimed pursuit of romance?? Liberty, Egalite, Fraternite…et la poursuite de romance. If you look closely it’s inscribed on the Arc D’Triomphe. Every Chinese textbook says so!
The Chinese really need to stop getting so turned on by the idea that the French are victimizing them and realize that they are arrogant bastards to *everyone*.
What got is started is really the media.
Take for example during the Tibet event, in Canada, there were only 30 or so Tibetans striking in public, but they recieve 3 days worth of cover story in all newspaper. When the Chinese got enough of that, and decide to protest themselves, they ordered few buses, and were ready to go. But then when the bus company realized who it was for, they cancel the order for no reason a day before the protest (they even claim they do not have a valid reason). The Chinese had to go to another bus company to rent the bus. When they started the protest in Ottawa, there were over few thousands there, yet they only recieved a small print somewhere in the newspaper. When asked why they only recieved such small prints, (I believed it was Global news or something) the newspaper responded that it did not seemed important, while the Tibet, with only 30 people, was a lot more important event. And there were not clips of this protest by the Chinese on the main television news.
Does this seem fair? That is propaganda right there. They only broadcast what is bad about China. It’s such a shameful behavior. I mean during the Tibet times, none of the news ever mentioned what kind of religion existed there. They believed in slavery. Priests are allow to enslave people, yet this part never appeared in any media. They only claimed China attacked Tibet, and took power from the monks (the power to enslave). With such propaganda and brianwashing in the West (worst, they do not realize it), how can there ever be peace? Fairness? Equality? Discrimination-free?
The best thing to do right now, is to change the media. Without brianwashing media, citizens will not hate others, thus no war. Maybe someday, there would be an international media guildline that controls all media, a media that doesn’t discriminate against certain gov. types, races, people, gender, belief, religion, and so on.
*sigh … if only~
The mainstream media reports whatever is sensationalist. Its shallow. But its whats most profitable.
But the Chinese protesting in Canada against Tibetans looking for self-determination. Thats a stretch.
Tibetans are very much an ethnic group of their own, they want to be self-ruled, not be watched under the colonizer. How can anyone protest about territorial issues that did not originally belong to them. Its as strange as seeing The Brittons protesting against Indians voicing their desire for self-determination of India in lets say America.
There are old obsolete practices in every culture, as I remembered, my great grandfather had concubines in DongBei, that was a common chinese practice. But is it still relevant today? Indians used to burn the widow when the husband dies, but is it still practiced.
The idea of cultural pluralism is that one state must not impose its own ideals and culture on another. Whats the difference between this and the much hated western imperalism us chinese always love to disdain.
No, they were protesting about the unfair media bias actually. Not the territorial thingy. That’s why they were so picky on about why they did not get much media attention with few thousands of people compared to 30 or so.
During that time, the media put down China’s face quite a few times. They started to talk about all the bad things in China again (bring back old bad news of China and it’s product to get things heated up). It was really quite unfair. Thus the Chinese got piss as it was so one sided (all against China). It’s totally opposite to the Native Americans. When they protest, they get a very small section, and no one bring back history to get things started, but when it was the Chinese, they made it seemed like China was picking on Tibet. More like bullied. I mean, comparing what Canada and the USA had done to the Natives (send them to special ENGLISH school, killing off their culture and language), it’s the same. Native American barely has any voices here *sigh, I do feel for them.
That’s why they were so picky on about why they did not get much media attention with few thousands of people compared to 30 or so.
To be fair, as proportions of relative world population, a demo by thirty Tibetans absolutely dwarfs one by even 10,000 Han people :p
I mean, comparing what Canada and the USA had done to the Natives (send them to special ENGLISH school, killing off their culture and language)
It seems like a very apt comparison, the Chinese send Tibetans to school where they learn Mandarin, and they’re flooding Xinjiang and Tibet with Han Chinese in an effort to Sinicize the areas under the guise of modernizing them. The difference is that Americans and Canadians are very aware of the way natives were treated, and try to make up for it. Books of North American atrocities during that time fill up libraries, I’d like to see how many books about the dilution of minority cultures there would be in a Chinese library.
Yes I guess you are right, in a country where religion is illegal (considering it’s Karl Marx’s communism), they weren’t worshipping any god(s). On second thought, last time I checked they were wearing robes and such, going into temple with gov aid. Cross that out then.
I guess they were very hard working, thus everyone, from all countries accepted them. Cross that out as well, last time I checked Napel gov was trying to kick them out using violence, which the German news group used those photos and said Napel police were Chinese. And the last time I checked, in India, they were also trying to kick them back into China.
Then I guess China took away a lot of things from them, such as a peaceful life. Cross that out as well. The monks there were scarificing normal citizens back then, before the CCP came in. They used them as slaves so that the monks can worship god 24/7 and eat what their slaves harvest through hard work. They also slave trade. NOW I understand why they don’t like civilization! Cause there would be no more slaves!
And trust me, there is a normal town in Northern Ontario, Canada that had been blocked by Native Americans for 1 WHOLE YEAR! Guess what, the media only reported about the event only twice, when it was first blocked off, and second time, when it’s one year later! The gov. didn’t care about it! They weren’t hearing their voices! To completely block off the town from traffic, trains, and such for 1 year, that’s something big, but why reported only few times?
Canadian gov is doing great jobs for the Native Americans too. Give them tax free on something like alcohol and smokes. Let the native children smoke all they want, drink and such after taking everything from them. Giving only a small part of land back to them. The reason why there isn’t a lot of voices for them is because they did not recieved good education to sue the government and to fight back. Where did the lack of education come from? GOVERNMENT! Coincidence? Not at all. No one wants to be sue when they can brush it off like that.
Tibet was a lot better than the Natives. Their culture WAS NOT DESTROYED! Their language and religion still exist. Only difference is no slavery. And as you can see, most of those who protested back then were religious. NOT COMMON FOLKS. Common folks there was not affected at all, actually, if they were slaves, I bet they wouldn’t mind the CCP coming in back then. Some slaves had limbs cut off by the monks. Yes, lets not civilize Tibet and allow them to continue their way. That would be contradicting.
Yes, Tibetans learn Mandarin in school – but their **parents** send them to those schools to learn Mandarin. Their parents **want** them to learn Mandarin.
My wife has interviewed a Tibetan who lives in Tibet. His parents speak different Tibetan dialects – Mandarin helps that family communicate with each other.
In addition, my wife found out that Tibetans **can** learn Tibetan, and can study in Tibetan, but they don’t do so because they will get better jobs if they have good Tibetan.
The local Tibetan government operates in Tibetan and Mandarin, much in the same way as Wales operates in English and Welsh.
Han Chinese are entering Tibet in exactly the same way that Chinese all over China are travelling to find work. I saw Uighars working in the north-east of China. Dandong, the main border city with North Korea, has a mosque! There is a huge amount of migration all over China. Do you want a return to the days when the CCP tightly controlled the movement of everybody? Do you want less freedom of movement?
How about you get your facts right first? I’m not a supporter of the Chinese regime, but seeing this dis-information going unchallenged makes me angry.
Regarding the next post (can’t reply to it for some reason), I assume Anonymous is refering to the following case: http://www.mccarthy.ca/article_detail.aspx?id=3594
Note it’s not a “normal town”, it’s a remote mineral exploration site with probably no permanent residents anywhere near. The ability of the Native Americans to stop/delay the exploration company and the company’s efforts to then go through the courts for redress go a long way to explain the difference between the current Tibetan situation and “First Nations” in Canada. That said, Canada is on a long road to addressing its misstreatment of minzhuren and the PRC may similarily come to regret its current efforts in years to come.
Anonymous
In your condemnation of Canadian government’s treatment of the aboriginals, you forgot to mention that along with tax-free alcohol and booze, they get a FREE EDUCATION. That’s right, they can go to university for FREE. While I am by no means supporting my government and saying everything is peachy keen with the Native American situation, I just felt the need to point out that one big thing that you so conveniently left out.
Anon: You seem to be making strawman arguments instead of actually responding to what I said. Refuting an idea that you yourself created doesn’t prove anything.
I think one of the primary points that you are missing is that North America is trying to rectify these injustices that we have committed. You can dismiss them with an anecdote about Canadian problems, but there is one issue. We have a free press, as does the UK, and France, and any one of them would be biting at the bit to scoop a story like that. If a denigrating story came out there would be dozens of magazines that are waiting to make that point. We have less to worry about colluding journalists because anyone in any country in the world can break a story.
Ha Ha. Free press in USA? Give me a break! If something is not on State Department line, it can not be published!
There’s a primer: When some guys wanted to organize terrorist attack on Fort Nicks, all press said that they are from Former Yugoslavia. But, guys was Albanians from Kosovo.
American press is very biased toward Serbs. Maybe, millions of dollars given to top USA politician by Albanian diaspora.
Tibet and China have been closely tied together for many centuries. I would say that the situation is more like England and Ireland than India.
And if we take that comparision, the English invaded Ireland and brutally repressed them. The Communists invaded Tibet, and liberated the peasants from an oppressive feudal system. It is interesting that the Dalai Lama advocated democracy after his dictatorship was overthrown.
The Western media are completely blind about Tibet. They have whole-heartedly bought into the Tibetan exiles’ narrative, without bothering to check what the situation in Tibet was before the communists invaded.
Religion in Tibet is much stronger than anywhere else in the rest of China. Religion in Tibet has suffered under the Communist regime, but it did not suffer more than religion in the rest of China. So is this oppression an argument for self-determination, or for a change of regime for the whole of China?
I fully understand how patriotic Chinese feel – in their year of their glory – the Beijing Olympics – they got pissed on by Western media because of Tibet.
It is great that you recognise China’s occupation of Tibet as colonialism, but please look at the rest of the situation. China’s colonial policy does not excuse the lies and slander spread by the Western media.
If you’re going to compare it to England and Ireland, You do realize that such an end for Tibet would help no one?
Uh oh…is this post going to become China vs. Tibet & the World again?
not more slavery than in china at the same time.
and that’s not an excuse to oppress another people. its the same imperialist mindset that you criticize in western powers.
this stupid girl feels humiliated and emotional about other people talking badly about china when the chinese are doing much worse in tibet? please. that’s exactly the kind of hypocrisy that people hate. much more than any french arrogance.
yes the summer palace was robbed by western countries. and how many temples has china robbed in tibet??? a lie told a hundred times does not make it true. but mao said that and 1.3 billion educated chinese believe it.
Nah, the newspapers were probably not reporting on it because no reporters wanted to go deal with the obnoxious, jingoistic behavior of the Chinese protesters.
Regardless of what the media says, what is going on there in real life? Tibetans wanting changes? Yes. Does the media giving a biased account of things change the fact that the PRC rolled in with guns and took the place over by force? No.
Anyway, I’m not sure what this has to do with the French or girls arguing on planes, but whatever.
daily entertainment. ignorance is so bliss.
The french are so funny, everybody makes fun of them and no one takes them seriously. I almost feel bad for them.
The same could also be said of the Chinese.
Arrogant French meet Nationalistic Little Chinese Girl = Major Fight.
Ridiculous….
Everyone loves their country but at present times, no country can be great alone.. survive alone, ’cause I believe in ‘GLOBALIZATION’ which makes all of us interdependent on each other, so even it’s China or America or France this kind of arguing is useless and immature rather than patriotic.
P.S I didn’t know that Chinese passengers behave so well in international flights.. ROFL!!
Don’t worry, no one can help others hating them. Perhaps the French were brain-washed to hate Chinese! It is hypocritical to loot and colonize and then point the finger at others.
Q: What similarities bring people of two countries into meaningless confrontation?
A: Nationalism and ignorance.
Haha, I fully agree
Has it ever dawned on either the Frenchman or Chinese woman that both of them have more in common then they would hope to admit?
Though I would say a strong national identify with their country and pride as opposed to nationalism and ignorance.
+1 for USTCer.
Ignorance is what pushes being proud of one’s nationality into nationalism.
Nationalism belongs to ignorance, so it’s more like different types of ignorance at odd with each other.
fake story !
Patriotism is really disease that infects all man on earth. We remain a primitive race until the day we evolve beyond it.
> We remain a primitive race until the day we evolve beyond it.
I believe that’s impossible therefore everything will stay as always.
But well, maybe that’s the way to go, religion, nationalism, etcetera always was and will be an handy tool for the controlling forces.
Patriotism and Nationalism are not the same. See Orwell’s ‘Notes on Nationalism’ for the distinction. Love of country and pride in one’s idenity are fine, holding a fanatical unthinking loyalty to a particular territory (and letting a silly regime use you) is not, particularly when it can only find expression through antagonism to and crude caricature of ‘the Other’.
People are not brainwashed in France !!!
It’s just that there’s a pro-tibet sentiment here that has existed for a long time though I dunno why -_- And recently,there were some crimes and scandals that involved these damned mainlanders !
That’s why France is one of the countries where they have the worst reputation…(hehe, where do they have a good reputation except North Korea ??)
Even if it”s fake, this story shows once again that Mainlanders are just a bunch of peasants who only know the words “ultranationalism” …
But still, the girl was right about Victor Hugo’s essay. But nobody knows about it in France cuz it’s not a major work (it’s only a letter among thousand of others).
If there’s a pro-Tibet sentiment in France but you don’t know why, doesn’t that sound suspiciously like being brainwashed?
LoL, anyway, propaganda is indeed strong in China, but I think Westerners need to be careful when assuming they’re impervious to bias or propaganda themselves. A lot of Westerners have replaced actually being objective and looking at both sides with their belief that their education/society embraces dissent. Just because you were taught that your society promotes free thinking does not automatically mean you or any one person actually thinks freely. A lot of Western self-righteous arrogance and infalliabilty is built upon this critical assumption.
Anyway, regardless of whether French people are familiar with the contents of all of Hugo’s writings, it is embarrassing for a French person to genuinely be shocked when confronted with the notion that his country’s “precious” museum artifacts WEREN’T all warmly gifted to the French by their origin countries. That’s like an American saying the Native Americans bowed before them on Plymouth Rock and said: “Here, take our land, oh civilized ones!”
People are brainwashed in France, as well as in the rest of the world.
All media operates on a set of biases, which mainly go unchallenged.
One of those biases in the Western media is that Tibet is oppressed by the evil Communist government in China.
This idea is unchallenged, and the majority of Westerns do not have easy access to information contradicting it.
Therefore, all Westerners are brainwashed on this topic.
Quite a simple proof.
In the West one can go to almost any book store and find books, newspapers, and magazines with views that support various sides of this issue and have histories written from different persepctives. The the West even if the mainstream media seems biased on an issue, one still has access to info from all sides. China does NOT have that. So, Westerners are brainwashed if they let themselves be, and many choose not to be, Chinese often have no choice on the matter.
What’s the difference between choosing to be brainwashed and not having that choice? Surely, with all the opportunities in the West, it is a sad sign that Westerners are so brainwashed, no?
By your logic, we should be far more critical of Westerners than Chinese.
Um, I’d like to ask: how can we ever know if someone is indulging in the fine art of free-thinking or not?
As far as ‘arrogant’ and ‘infallible’ westerners go, and what we can concretely know about China vs West on this topic: the west holds dearly a system of government that encourages free thinking, China doesn’t. Western media permits opposing and alternative viewpoints, on the other hand, Chinese media is heavily censored to tow the party line. The Chinese gov’t monitors or has a hand in all NGO’s, trade unions, and religious bodies (depending on their ‘threat level’), the west doesn’t.
By these examples I would say Western society encourages free-thinking more than Chinese. And I don’t think it would be wrong for a westerner to consider themselves superior to the extent that their societies’ are significantly more liberal.
By the way, I used objectivity, reason, logic, blah blah, blah to derive these conclusions. I left my lonely cave for the very first time today, saw this site and these comments, and felt the urge to present my impartial views. Thankyou.
Admittedly I wouldn’t know what a non-free thinking Chinese person would look like, but I at least know the views they would have (it would be along party lines), the variety of views in the west, with no official line to follow, makes me wonder exactly what a non-free-thinking westerner would actually look like?
(For the record, I don’t think it’s fair to attribute the word brainwashing to anyone outside of a totalitarian state, I don’t see westerners or Chinese having their cataracts removed by western doctors, only to weep and sing praises over an image of the ‘Dear Leader’, a la North Korea; now THAT’S brainwashing. )
I was justing making an observation, not a judegment.
Obviously those people who have access to the facts but still ignore them are the worst. The fact that the West does have access to all the facts does mean more people will be well informed, though many will still choose not to be, does it not? Do Chinese people have easy, everyday access to information from all sides on the issues? If they read English, have money and no how to get around the Great Chinese Firewall, then maybe, but otherwise, no. When most people do not have access to the facts of important issues, how can their arguments be taken as anything more than recycled retoric?
scrap that about trade unions, I hear some western countries are a little techy when it comes to workers rights…
And Mike fish, as above, how can one know if someone has adequately mulled over all available resources enough for them to have indulged in the art of free-thinking? HOw much research/contemplation etc must they doe and how do we know if they’ve done it?
If someone holds a particular viewpoint, it’s likely the opposing view will have a number of reasonable arguments in its defence, who is the free-thinker and who isn’t?
Coppice, you make a good point about asking when can anyone know when someone else is “indulging” in the art of free thinking or not.
Then you proceed to ASSUME that Westerners do simply because their environment is, on a number of fronts most people agree to, more conducive to dissent and plurality of opinion. Just because an environment makes an option available does not automatically mean the people in that environment exemplify that option. When you get down to it, this is a classic logic error.
That’s why I’ve said that any opinion must be judged by its merits, not by where that opinion comes from. If you have taken any introductory rhetoric class, you will agree with what I am saying. We all know it is common to judge a statement by who says it, involving our judgements about that person’s background, character, etc., but ultimtely such judgements tell usmore about our preconceptions and biases than the de facto validity of the opinion made.
Feeling that one thing is superior to another is not inherently wrong. However, using that feeling about one thing to justify OVERALL contempt is.
I forgot to add:
Personally, I find a Chinese person who exhibits free-thinking to be more admirable than a Westerner who does and obviously far more than a Westerner who doesn’t. While not THAT difficult, we DO accept that access to dissenting opinions and sources of information is indeed more difficult in China than many Western countries with governments that do not manage information as tightly as the Chinese government does. As a result, this Chinese very likely has overcome taller obstacles than his Western counterpart to achieve such self-determined lucid thinking/expression.
Like Chris said above, I do think it is a bigger tragedy to see a Westerner who has much easier access to different perspectives and views yet come across as close-minded to me. Most aggravating of all, whether Chinese or Westerner, are those who are close-minded yet aren’t afraid to open their mouths to negatively influence those around them. They are no different than the hyper-nationalistic Chinese fenqing who incite other idiotic Chinese fenqing into a mob ready to go harass anyone who steps out of a Carrefour.
Coppice, interesting question.
IMHO, free-thinkers are those who don’t think they are freer in thinking than others. Otherwise he is a believer not a free-thinker. And he thinks that the degree of freedom of his thinking is limited by how many thinkers he has learnt from instead of how much facts he has access to. In this sense, there’s no free-thinking at all and thinkers can not be measured by how ‘free’ they think but how much they don’t know.
I just can’t trust your opinion on the quality of this pizza if it’s the only friggin pizza you’ve ever had! Even if it is the best damn pizza ever.
@ Mike Fish:
Heh, let’s run with that analogy:
West:
The Westerner is in a pizza parlour with 20 different pies to choose from, ranging from the mundane to the strange.
China:
The Chinese is in a pizza parlour with 3 different pies to choose from: Cheese, Extra Cheese, Super Extra Cheese Deluxe. Now, all three are kinda different but still fairly similar. There’s a big security guard, you know, a towering guy with really broad shoulders, standing next to him, blocking his view of the pizza parlour with 20 different pizzas across the street, but if the Chinese guy tip-toed, he could catch a glimpse and if he’s nimble, he can get around the guard, cross the street, and sample whatever he wants over there.
What next?
A Westerner in his pizza parlour may have the option to try every type of pizza, but that doesn’t mean he does. He may have always just stuck with Cheese, maybe tried Pepperoni once or twice. The rest, he’s never touched let alone tasted, and doesn’t even bother. He knows what he likes and sticks with it.
That Westerner cannot walk into the Chinese pizza parlour and say to the Chinese person, “I’m a better judge of pizza than you are because my pizza parlour has more pizzas than you, even though I’ve never tasted 18 of them. However, just because I CAN taste 18 of them whereas you’d have to get around this security guard over here, I am AUTOMATICALLY a more enlightened pizza eater.”
People can judge each other’s opinions based upon the sophistication of their views and arguments. We can’t automatically assume Westerners have “better” views and arguments just because the country they come from allows people more information. It is one thing to have more information at your disposal, and another to actually go seek, digest, and incorporate that information into your position.
A lot of the arguments made by “Westerners” here show me they’re fans of Cheese pizza, but they couldn’t describe the quality of those other 19 pies with any amount of familiarity to warrant my trust in their opinion. They may know they have 19 other pies to try, but because they’ve never really tried them, their descriptions of those pies are utterly lacking and unconvincing. How can I trust their opinion versus trusting the opinion of another Westerner who has tried those other 19 pies or even of the other Chinese guy who has outwitted the security guard, slipped over to the Western pizza parlour, and managed to try 8 different slices before running out of money?
Kai… a different world of pizza where it isn’t assumed people are taking their wonderous variety of pizza for granted.
Place A… one pizza parlor.
Place B… twenty pizza parlors.
Person from Place A, having only ever sampled pizza from his home’s one pizza place visits a new pizza parlor and proclaims its pizza the best ever. Is it the best? Maybe. How does he know though? Is he just regurgitating the pizza review from the local rag?
Person from Place B, having sampled pizza from numerous pizza parlors, visits a new pizza parlor and proclaims its pizza the best ever. I’m more inclined to trust him. Granted he might be a retard with taste bud defects and is also simply parroting the local pizza review. However, it is more likely that he is just more experienced and more knowledgeable about pizza.
I’m getting hungry. Time for lunch!
Heh, Mike, both of our pizza analogies aren’t perfect, and I trust we’re both smart enough to understand that different elements of our analogies probably represent different things and we generally “get” each other’s point.
My point, when applied to your analogy, is that Person B from Place B may not have actually sampled pizza from numerous pizza places, despite our assumption that he has simply because he has access to them all.
Likewise, it is entirely possible for a Chinese person to have encountered more perspectives from the foreigners he’s met in China than an American who was surrounded by like-minded Americans his entire life despite the fact that America is supposed to be a wonderful multiethnic melting pot. It is further entirely possible that a Chinese person who has NEVER encountered other perspectives in his life to actually be more tolerant and free-thinking than a foreigner who has constantly encountered other perspectives but has stubbornly rejected all opinions contrary to his own. We sometimes say religious people are like the latter.
Ultimately, again, I trust you agree that the fairest and most proper way to evaluate an opinion is on its own merits, not by who utters that opinion. We judge opinions by who utters them as a shortcut, but taking shortcuts isn’t always the right thing to do.
Agreed?
Yes, I agree, the pizza should be based on its own merits.
Just to make clear that my only real point here is that westerners are more likely to practice free thought than Chinese and you have answered it yourself:
“While not THAT difficult, we DO accept that access to dissenting opinions and sources of information is indeed more difficult in China than many Western countries with governments that do not manage information as tightly as the Chinese government does. As a result, this Chinese very likely has overcome taller obstacles than his Western counterpart to achieve such self-determined lucid thinking/expression.”
If control of information is the reason why it is more difficult for “self-determined lucid
thinking/expression”, it follows that when these controls are removed, that is, when a more liberal society or environment ‘conducive to dissent or plurality of opinion’, emerges, free-thought is easier and thus likely to be more widespread.
Concerning your rhetoric comment, of course that is applicable to exactly how valuable one determines a particular position, or to put it more simply, whether you think ‘west is best’ or not, however, I don’t see its relevance concerning whether or not a Chinese or Westerner is more likely to practice free-thought.
It is certainly not a logical fallacy but quite a reasonable inference to conclude that in a more liberal environment, the individuals are more likely to be more liberal in thought, precisely because they are given more options rather than prescribed specific positions due to certain pressures, and NEED to make a personal, individual choice before they can even be said to hold a position in the first place. In such an environment it is my understanding that an individual will not, cannot, point blindly at those options where he is free to make a choice, he is more likely to look at the choices, surely. He may be unable to cast off religion due to indoctrination or cultural tradition/norms etc, but he may be more ‘open’ (double entendre anyone?) to taking anal sex. *ahem*. Where, for whatever reason, there are more restrictions placed on the freedom to make a choice (which themselves are lacking) in a society, then a truly free choice is less likely to be made. Is that so fallacious?
Again, I’ll repeat that unlike Mike Fish, I didn’t comment on the superiority of the products, values, or ideas that emerge from such an environment, of course they can only be judged on their individual merits. I am not justifying overall contempt at all.
In essence, however, we seem to agree. The Chinese are less likely to practice free-thought than westerners, and this, (you seem to both acknowledge and deny), is due to their specific environments.
Heh, nice answer USTCer.
Although I think we can identify societies that might be more likely to produce free-thinking indviduals. We can never know if a particular individual has come to their conclusions by having used this fabled method of free-thinking.
And even if we somehow conclude someone has thought freely, they will not necessarily come to the same conclusions as us, who have used free-thinking as well. As you point out, the term free-thinknig is a little bit dubious becasue its products are never consistent amongst individuals. Unless we’re God, there will always be limits and influences that lead us to conclude a specific position has merit.
It is silly to point at someone and say ‘I’m more free thinking than you are’, exactly.
Coppice, I want to make this very clear because it is important: I am not simultaneously acknowledging or denying anything whatsoever.
By virtue of having more access to a pluraility of information and perspectives, a Westerner OUGHT to practice free-thought more than a Chinese person who has less access.
He OUGHT to.
But that doesn’t mean he does.
That’s my point.
When you encounter a Westerner who doesn’t, you shouldn’t, for a moment, excuse him for his lack of free-thought just because he comes from a place where he OUGHT to practice free-thought by virtue of having more access to a diversity of information.
Each person necessarily must be judged by the merit of what he himself puts forth.
If I took two anonymous people, one Westerner and one Chinese, neither of which have done anything or said anything, I may certainly SUGGEST that the Westerner MAY be more free-thinking THAN the Chinese and reference the rationalizations we’ve both made here. This doesn’t mean the Westerner is DEFINITELY more free-thinking and the Chinese less so, it just means that is our educated GUESS.
The moment they open their mouths, we have data to evaluate. It may turn out that the Chinese person is actually more free-thinking than the Westerner, right?
So again, my point is that we do not automatically hold a Westerner in higher esteem, give him a free pass, or make excuses for him when he has given us cause to judge him not by the demographic he belongs to but by the very words and thoughts he has communicated.
I most certainly think Westerners ought to be more free-thinking or even “enlightened” and “tolerant” than Chinese people. However, I meet A LOT who are not, and I’m not afraid to take them to task for it, especially if they’re self-righteously and arrogantly lording their presumed superiority over another race/nationality.
Kai, I understand your view, and clearly I suggest that on the whole your average westerner is more likely to be free-thinking than the average Chinese, precisely because those conditions both make it easy for him and in many respects demand it of him etc etc (my other post already attempts to argue this.)
However, you say you don’t acknowledge or deny this, you are interested in what we think a westerner ought to behave like. And I tend to agree with your views here. An individual westerner will not necessarily be more free-thinking than a Chinese counterpart, though he ought to be, and there is certainly no excuse for the westerner, for he simply doesn’t have the obstacles a Chinese individual has.
But then I wonder if the expression ‘free-thinking’ is rightly used here. As it is nigh on impossible, if the person presents a coherent argument, to tell exactly whether or not they are freely thinking. Perhaps it makes more sense to take an UNREASONABLE westerner to task. Not everyone will reach the same conclusions; if you judge the merits of a westerner’s position (or anyone’s for that matter) to be poor then it would be more accurate to stick to criticising the merit of their argument, without adding the claim that they lack free-thought. Even if they are lacking, how can you know?
Well, regardless of what you want to call someone you disagree with, keep up the ‘good fight’! (though I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that ;) )
Hey Coppice, yes, you’re absolutely right that we can actually argue “what is free thinking” ad nauseum and I took it as implicit that it is necessarily subjective. If someone feels another person is not “thinking freely,” it is up to that person to explain and convince observers to agree with him. It can be easier or harder to do so depending on both the persuasiveness of that person’s arguments and the proclivity of the observers to believe him.
For example, a lot of people here immediately claimed this story was fake. A lot of people immediately agreed. Some of the reasons offered included shaky arguments about how unlikely it is for a young Chinese girl to be trilingual, or for flight attendants to wear pins. I personally felt these reasons were far from persuasive, but many others took them and said, “yeah, see!” I think it is highly probable that many people agreed that this was fake NOT because the arguments given were that persuasive but because they themselves were inclined and predisposed to rejecting the implications of this story. This story MAY have made them feel uncomfortable or indignant that a Chinese person dares to be uppity with them or dares to generalize Frence people, whatever, and they wanted excuses to dismiss it.
I’m not saying everyone’s behavior or mental process was like this, but its worth some consideration because the reactions I saw weren’t so different from Chinese hyper-nationalists immediately rejecting and counter-smearing anything “foreigners” or “Westerners” have said or written that put them on the defensive.
Coppice, upon review of the discussions and debates I’ve been having with various commenters on this post, would you say I’m MORE accusing Westerners of not being free-thinking or of not being reasonable?
I think, for example, my argument with Rick in China has consistently been about me explaining why his certainty on the his reasons for this story being fake was unreasonable. I grant, however, that I’ve implied that many Westerners are not exercising free-thinking but rather easily resorting to biased, prejudiced, and racist dismissals of anything Chinese. I do try to explain very thoroughly my reasons for such implications though.
I appreciate and respect the sophistication and civility of the thoughts and questions you have brought up. I suspect we may be quite similar in how we evaluate arguments, and even how we poke holes in them. Cheers.
What is it with this them and us attitude. If people act like idiots ,just smile turn around and start looking for someone more intelligent. Life is too short to waste your time on imbeciles.
Sounds like a good story. A tale…a yarn if you will.
The Frenchy was not entirely wrong but in typical French fashion he has totally gone about it in a wrong way…namely obnoxiously.
This LZ is also a tard… AND I am so heartened by the fact that several Chinese called her on the ‘circumstances’ of her lifestyle, and how they could coincide with her naivety.
The story is FAKE
The young lady says she could understand what the French were saying (even though they were probably speaking fast) and was able to have a conversation with the flight attendant in English (even though the attendant was also Chinese)
Give me a break….. how many Chinese “young ladies” are tri-lingual?
China only has the victim card to play, that’s why the stories get more and more fantastic! The truth is, they want no criticism whatsoever, so they can do even more dastardly things to their own people and those around them.
WTF? Are you seriously basing your entire judgement of this piece on your disbelief that Chinese “young ladies” are unlikely to be tri-lingual?
How do you know she’s not an ethnic Chinese person who has grown up in France and, like many immigrants in France, has kept her mother tongue (Chinese) while learning fluent French in school along with other languages such as English. IIRC, Europeans are often held up as a great example of multilingualism. What kind of asanine comment is this?
Kai,
It is almost impossible that this story is true. What’s the chances of all these things happening in the same time:
1- Perfectly trilingual Chinese young girl (You have to be very good in a language to eavesdrop on a friends slangish conversation).
2- Chinese wearing China flag in American airline, and French guy mistaking her for a Japanese (!! note *French*, *Japanese*, wink wink, only the devil is missing to complete this story.)
3- French people who travel to Asia (ie. not bumpkins) publicly discriminating against Chinese girls. I have yet to see this, all the French I know are very conscious of PC and they wouldn’t pull a show like that in public.
I can continue counting, but right now we are already at 1/1,000,000,000,000 chances against, sincerely do you need more?
Skimming a bit through the text, I just see some lines: “Americans have good mouth odour, French stink” “French have wanton behaviour”, etc. Jesus, what am I doing wasting my time with this load of BS, it is not even clever!
1. What makes you think she is “perfectly trilingual?” She doesn’t say much about eavesdropping other than it helped her determine that they were tourists on their way home. You don’t even need to understand all that much French to guess at that depending on what they were chatting about and combining it other cues like the fact they’re on a plane from somewhere else going back to France. It appears the argument was in English. Why can’t a Chinese person have functional Chinese, French, and English fluency? I know a lot of French-Chinese who do. I know a lot of French who have functional fluency in a combination of French, English, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. I think this is the LAMEST point used to argue that this is fake. There are SO many better arguments.
2. LoL, right, as I’ve said elsewhere, there are some suspiciously conveniently elements. That said, I still do not think it is utterly inconceivable for a Chinese flight attendant to wear a small Chinese flag on her uniform. I don’t find it implausible that the French guy could have missed a small pin, especially if he was enraptured by what he assumed to be a Japanese beauty. Maybe he was looking at her face or ass so much he didn’t notice a small pin. Did none of you see the American flag just about EVERYWHERE on just about EVERYONE after 9/11? I think there probably are rules about wearing pins for flight attendants. I also think its conceivable that she could be breaking/bending those rules and either no one noticed or no one thought it wise to enforce those rules so long as the pin is not functionally intrusive on her work duties. An American airline should certainly be conscious of what bothersome statements it’d be making if it made a big fuss forbidding a small, even possibly barely noticable, flag pin on an ethnic Chinese flight attendant in the big year of China’s Olympics. Think about it.
3. The story doesn’t say where they are flying FROM, only that they’re flying TO France. If anything, the Chinese flight attendant the Chinese girl was talking to referenced an 8 hour flight between America and France.
It isn’t wise to skim and then make arguments based on assumptions of details inconsistent or unsupported by the text you skimmed. Come on, Uln, you’re better than this. I read and liked your China blog credibility post. I know you’re capable of putting together a much more convincing and airtight case than this.
P.S. – I have NO idea where the “Americans have good mouth odor or personal hygeine” comes from. That said, I’ve heard stranger generalizations from Chinese people. Haven’t you?
LOL，I guess I could do better, but I feel a bit stupid wasting my time with that text. I mean, even if it were true (which I seriously doubt), the story in itself is just a bunch of stereotypes and cues to excite patriotic spirits. So thanks to CSmack for sharing,it was cool to read the comments and get a quick general impression. But I can’t justify spending more than 10min with this. BTW, I am amazed at how active you are writing on the internet, you must be a highly effective person. (no sarcasm intended)
LoL, yes, when something fascinates me, it is very easy for me to set aside a lot of other things to participate. Fortunately, my work gives me a lot of flexibility. Now, I hate to give everyone here false hope, but once we reboot CNR, I should waste far less time replying here and far more time posting over there.
In fact, I’m quite aware of how much time I waste engaging in these comment-based debates/arguments, and I laughed when Kaiser Kuo said to me “you’re pretty confrontational” two weekends ago at the SXSW Shanghai event. I think my legal education background predisposes me to being argumentative but, in addition to that, I think there’s also a certain naive idealism that afflicts younger people but erodes with age. I haven’t aged enough to be fully rid of that idealism but I’m sure it’ll happen eventually as, believe it or not, I’m far less active with writing on the internet now than I was when I was even younger.
As a blogger yourself, you’re intimately aware that people who bother to comment/blog/write are not your average person in this world. Even within writers, there are degrees of difference. You wouldn’t equate your cmmenters and trolls on Chinayouren with the commenters on YouTube would you?
who cares whether the story actually took place? there are loads of similar stories that do actually take place and the focus should be the comments/ opinions/ attitudes, rather than the story.
I don’t think that this story is true, although I suspect that it has some elements of truth.
However…..
The concept of tri-lingual Chinese **who are travelling overseas** is perfectly acceptable.
In my university classes there was a significant proportion of students who were good enough to qualify as bi-lingual, and this was in two universities out in the sticks.
Several of those students were also very competent in the 2nd language that they were studying – often Japanese.
It is entirely possible, therefore, that a young Chinese person travelling overseas (for what reason?) should be tri-lingual, at least.
I don’t know about tri-lingualism being a barrier, but the story simply doesn’t ring true given modern air travel – flight attendants don’t wear flags (and Chinese flag pins are hard to come by – I’ve never seen one), Chinese-Americans almost never wear such symbols, flight attendants don’t chat with passengers more than necessary, flight attendants don’t criticise other passengers, loud arguments are not allowed on board flights, French hygeine/manners can in no way be said to be worse compared to Chinese. In fact, the original commenters are bang on the money – this is a fabrication.
Also, if you want “balanced media” a good step is to stop pirating it!
Uh, the silver lining to pirating is that it shows that the Chinese are keen to get their hands on media that their government doesn’t allow them. Modern Chinese are more keenly aware of how their government changes, cuts, censors, etc. the media they consume, and proactively go out to actually seek the original versions. Small comfort, but this pursuit of the “truth” or the “original” is a good step towards eventually moving beyond piracy and valuing authenticity.
This silly story is so obviously a complete and utter lie. The poor little Chinese girl abused by the arrogant and rude foreign travelers!
Well mannered Chinese people on a airplane, that is just too silly to even imagine.
I was thinking the same thing – the young lady outraged that the rude frnechman opened the blind on the window! And that the Chinese stewardess, who of course was identified by a flag pin (yeah right) happily told her all about the evil French passengers. She obviuosly never got on a plane with any of her countrymen did she? I’ve seen plenty more Chinese screaming at the stewardesses, spitting (on the plane) and carrying on like nobs than westerners on my flights.
its sad to think people would believe this… and so what if it’s true… it does not mean all french people are rude towards Chinese.
get a life
^ True enough! Hahaha!!
The Chinese are the most ill-mannered people on airplanes.
The fact that ~90% of the Chinese respondents take this to be a true story is pretty remarkable. Sadly it seems like the average mainlander doesn’t care about the truth, he just wants rhetoric and fairy tales to back up the prejudices that were instilled in him from birth. Chinese nationalists won’t be taken seriously in the West until they producing this sort of transparent bullshit.
Except that it wasn’t 90%, it was more like 60%, maybe less – the rest saw through it. Chinese people aren’t stupid, they know how unlikely this story is.
Even if the story above is a fake, she aint too far off from what probably would of happened.
Please, we all know 90 percent of the French in China are a bunch of bummy ass snobs trying to live a pretentious lifestyle in a 3rd world country, working a job they could never dream of having back in France because they are highly unqualified for their current position. What does the French do best, they export ” snob-ism “. If you ever end up at a place with ” free drinks ” u will notice two things, a bunch of Americans, cause they are brokeass right now, and a bunch of French, cause they are cheap. lol That’s just how the French roll, cheap arrogant and annoying. Not all, but majority of the ones in China, yes, because this f’d up society here has allowed their ego’s to run rampant. Being that I have been involved with the service industry for awhile during my time here in China, I will honestly say that 97 percent of our stupid annoying arrogant self centered and dumb complaints come from the French.
Why so much fury? It’s all because that the gvt is trying to misdirect people’s anger towards some foreign country so they won’t focus on domestic issues such as corruption and economy crisis. First Japan, then Korea, and now the poor French.
If someone tells me that he doesnt like China or Chinese people, I’d ask him why, and probably find out that we share the same points of view.
I totally agree with the first Chinese comment: clearly wu mao dang !
Well, since last spring, there is a very simple and good way to expand dramatically the number of viewers on your blog: just write a short piece of France bashing, and if it is well done (I mean very excessive, with all the clichés you can find on French people like hygiene etc. No need to be credible), you are pretty sure that Sina will put it on its front page, then Bingo!
Few months ago, an article on why French ladies don’t shave their legs had this kind of success… Great… We live in a beautiful world!
The French guy had a point about not closing the window shutter. I hate blocking out natural light on daytime flights back to Europe. If it’s overnight, fine. Why plunge yourself in darkness, it’s grim.
I have been on long distance flights and there always drunken dickheads on the flight who can’t control their alcohol or their sad sob behavior. Europeans are getting fatter on the planes as well as their Euros are still worth a little more than dollars these days. So they feel like they can act arrogant and cheeky.
It is no different than a pommie going to Spain or other Euro countries to get wasted and appear on the UK news back home.
There are foreigners who behave badly on planes and on tourist destinations because they think they are king and thump their nose at locals. T
Wealthy Chinese’s’ sons and daughters of corrupt officials and newly rich travelling broad wants to act like little prince and princesses as they do in China, when no body pays slight notice to them, it is normal to scream anti-Western slogans. If you hate the west so much, stop copying everything from the West.
“Well mannered Chinese people on a airplane…blah…blah…blah”
What? And this is not racist? I saw this sentiment expressed a few times in the comments. If people wish to view Chinese people as one, then allow us to have our pride as one. Stop with the hypocrisy of criticizing our nationalism and group mentality while at the same time categorize as if Chinese people are all the same.
what do you think the point of this article was?
the french suck blah blah blah
good point Hammy.
I’m glad someone other than myself noticed.
ok I’m sorry…..
MANY Chinese people are ill-mannered on airplanes.
Better?
Fake. However, it remains real and perpetuate with credibility as long as the majority do not question this ’story’. That aside, its rather obvious that the girl has just as much arrogance as the French and truth be told China constantly plays the victim card. Also, it’s tiring to see individuals who usually don’t give two rats ass about each other all of a sudden say ‘we Chinese’ in every sentence (selective individualism I suppose). Majority of Chinese don’t have confidence, if they did they would just brush things off the shoulder but instead they choose to defend every comment (big or small) and thus re-enforcing themselves as ‘victims’. Also, Nationalism=emotion + ego= Not a smart choice of diplomacy.
Generalizations and bigotry are for simpletons.
hahahahah…lets admit it, french are arrogant,
chinese takes everything too seriously,
French needs to take that rod out of their rear, and chinese needs to smoke some weeeeed.
Done.
Yeah… and how’d they drag this up… sitting around and suddenly… damn, we haven’t bashed the French in a while!
Let’s make this a list of posts of stereotypes…
I heard that French people like to eat frogs so that’s why we call them Frogs!!! hahaha… FROGS!
I heard that we call Chinese people Chinks cause they talk all funny like… chingchangchong! hahaha… Chinks!
REALLY??? Lesson learned!
So what are people that likes to eat fish? Fucked up druggies with no taste in music? Perverted creeps?
SirBi… what does your comment mean? Please explain. I was making fun of steroetypes because they are ridiculous.
Hahah, James pretty much hit the nail on the head there.
French, however, are the only people I know who would, while LIVING IN CHINA and speaking NO CHINESE AT ALL, have the gall to criticize the FRENCH of Chinese people for not being good enough.
Why did Fauna add a photo of a Tibetan Chinese stealing the flame from a Han Chinese to illustrate this article? (photo which is not in the original mop article)?
I think it’s because of the line preceeding it:
The picture doesn’t have much to do with the entire post overall but I warrant it illustrates that line. This post needs more pictures of a French guy and Chinese girl yelling at each other on a plane. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how easy it is to find pictures of that on Google Image Search. Heh.
Don’t you find it ironic that the story talks about french stealing artifacts shortly after the nonsense about the bronze heads, and specifically mentions summer palace, yet claims to have taken place shortly after the torch issues in france – don’t you find it a *little curious* that they try to include every aspect of recent french issues into this nonsensical dramatization of “Oh poor little chinese girl, that big french bully victimized you once again”?
Yeah, I did, and also why I found it really amusing but reassuring that the first comment translated was “When did the 5 Mao start writing novels?” I thought that was awesome.
Personally, I didn’t think it sounded remotely like “victimizing.” It sounded more like smearing the French for being arrogant, self-righteous hypocrites. I’m fine with suspecting it to be a fabrication, as the references in the story seem a bit convenient, but I really do not see the components themselves to be “nonsense” as you’re insisting. Perhaps you’ve just never heard of non-Chinese saying these or similar things before to the Chinese?
I’m not arguing and haven’t argued that this story is definitely true. I’m saying that the things that happened in this story are entirely conceivable, especially since I’ve personally seen and heard so many similar exchanges without needing some anonymous Chinese forum post to tell me so. What do you think?
How many French people have you ever met ?
I don’t see how you can not see it as victimizing, when the little girl is portrayed as standing up to a savage man in a group of other friends while she’s alone against them all, fighting her little heart out, ending up crying after she feels she has made valid points in a failed attempt at besting someone who is so evil and ignorant in his bullying fashion. It’s victimizing. It’s also, as you put it, a smear.
I’m not implying there aren’t many ignorant assholes out there, from every country. I’m saying this *particular story* seems to have too many questionables and inconsistencies to make it feasible, in my mind, to be accurate in how it is written.
@ petit bonheur:
Actually, quite a lot. I have some good friends who are French and we’ve had awesome times together I’ll remember for the rest of my life. That said, I don’t see why this is relevant.
@ Rick in China:
Maybe I’ve seen better victimization pieces? Even so, is my personal characterization of this being a possible smear piece at odds with your overal sentiment? Shouldn’t you be rejoicing that I agree that this piece can be interpreted and suspected as a Chinese propagandist piece meant to cast an unfavorable light on the French?
That’s fine and I’ve already said I’m skeptical like you are. I just don’t think some of the elements you consider questionable or inconsistent to be as questionable or inconsistent as you think they are. What’s wrong with that?
Good point, I had simply assumed that it happened recently, but you are quite correct.
did you know that mao coined the term han chinese in 1950? because there is no such thing, only chinese and non-chinese. but somehow you have to find a clever way to cover up colonization right?
First of all,
French people are arrogant to most people of the world. Not just Chinese!
Second, this is a typical story to stir up Chinese Nationalism. Another story on how Chinese are shamed by foreigners.
Plain and simple, this is about two cultures clashing, and two people who just don’t know how to swallow what little pride is inside of them, and compromise.
Shame on both of you.
Dear Fauna,
I sent you an email. It seems your email server is not functioning well. Could you please take a look? Hope you can read this comment.
Best regards,
Yi
Shorter Meimei:
“I met a French jackass on a plane who made unfair generalizations and stereotypes about Chinese people, so I made unfair generalizations and stereotypes about French people. Aren’t I special? Vive la Chine!”
seems fake to me, it’s just too coincident to have all the talk points in one conversation. I’ve seen too many fairy tales made by conspiracy theorists, either Chinese or foreigners, to incite sympathy or hatred amongst the ignorant mass.
And what’s the torch relay photo doing up there?
To all of the foreigners who are bashing China? Why do you have so much interest in China to be reading these kinds of sites? BTW: I am pro-Vietnam and all of the African countries that were colonized by the French.
I like your ding dong ChinaBounder!
Chinabounder, most of France is now crying after that super harsh comment you just made supporting their ex-colonies. Shows how little you know those places, especially it seems Vietnam. Most of France’s former colonies are the places that love, and even hate, France the most.
Some people might be soley interested in China for the easy bashing.
The girl said about self-confidence, and in the end she cried.
Duh.
There was a good article I read about some of the roots that have lead to mob killings and the genocides that have taken place. A lot of them have to do with inciting some anger by planting a seed (such as this article) and suddenly people are murdering others that would have otherwise just been friends.
China is horrible and a bigot country of unspiritual misguided slaves. They call everyone else slaves, as if they are a country of no law and goverment, when they are the most tightly controlled population on the planet. Every human being is under a form of control, and China is THE TOP political AND humanitary offender. Taunt a US surveillance ship in international waters and call it illegal? Oh… booooooo hoooooo you haven’t had time yet to infiltrate the American government more so you can steal their technology on how to do that AS WELL! Every “modern” military technology has and a stolen direct or indirect derivative of American military technology. Whatever the path is towards peace, China’s government most certainly is not propelling in the positive direction. Suck it China. These pitiful chinese people that try to be patriots are protecting what? Their spies in the US? Their secret nuclear naval bases? Their glories ALL derived from Americans buying their poor labor practices? Heck, if they treated their people right, that labor would have stayed on this side of the ocean. But no, the chinese use the excuse of “american greed” as why its okay that they treat their own people that way, so that those very chinese can learn to hate the US instead of their government for their working conditions. And any chinese that moved beyond labor is just bought off by the commies with a nice life, a life as manufactured as the ones they made for the American foreign exchange students in the 1970’s. China is a joke as a government, and now they are pissed because the US has Obama, and Obama will do everything China wanted, but respectfully and with an honest majority. Too bad so many in the US have had their mind turned to goo because the conservative wackos made it seem like true democracy was some kind of red commie china disgrace.
this woman on the plane claims people don’t know her country. what a joke. we know your country like the world knew the bush administration’s inner workings. a black box of evil, all too obvious by the crap nonsense that comes out of it.
Negative stereotypes of Chinese = bad.
Negative stereotypes of French = good.
Amazing how blind some people are.
oh man when i read this my brain wants to throw up. its like the stories you hear in highschool.
the storyteller always calm and considerate and the oposing party a complete redneck.
chinese people cant deal with critique, they are worse then children.
the girl on the plane was a stiff, selfrigteous bitch.
offended by nothing and making a big deal out of a fly.
by the way, the reaction of some in China to this whole spat with France has a certain ‘jilted lover’ aspect to it. France was supposed to be the “good” Western country (much better than the horrible USA). But I guess it turns out that it really always was a CCTV myth that the rest of the world has such a positive view of the CCP and its policies (in Tibet and elsewhere).
I don’t know why it is so shocking to learn that most of the planet has a low opinion of the Chinese government. But I guess the inability of many to distinguish their country from their government is the root cause of a lot of this.
“She said that amongst her work assignments, the France route gives her the most headaches because the passengers are too wanton, do not listen to the flight attendants, continue to walk around when the fasten seat belt light is on, that it is common for them to ask for 4-5 things each time they want something”
is this a fukin joke?
the chinese are internationally the most hated flight passangers. every stewardess i know sais it.
I think it was singapore airlines who issued an open letter to the chinese government about this.
When you can’t genuinely, publicly criticize your own country, its government, leadership, history, or culture, you focus all your pent up frustration and criticism on foreigners.
That’s kinda true but kinda not, especially given the black and white oversimplification. One fo the great things chinaSMACK shows is that there are actually a lot of popular criticism of the country, government, leadership, history, and even culture amongst netizens in China. Acutally, it really isn’t that different from sentiments elsewhere in the world. The extremes tend to be the most vocal, often drowning out or turning off those in the middle. Just think of the political rhetoric that gets the most play and outrage in American politics or any place’s politics.
I’m not just commenting on China, my previous comment made no mention of a specific country.
Problem is almost all of netizens’ criticism is basically anonymous. Internet based critique and opinion also usually aren’t taken seriously anywhere. Some bloggers are being recognized for their contributions, but most “real” “serious” commentary is in print or television media. How many honest, free newspapers or tv outlets in China can you name? So, Kai, I beg to differ, the freedom of the press and the situation for self-expression in China is very different from many places around the world.
On your last point, do you think Americans lash out at Iran, Russia, or China because they can’t lash out at their own government?
I sound like a broken record but you’re right and you’re wrong. For example, we know that print media is dying and while it won’t ever fully die off, we see a serious migration to the online digital medium. ANONYMOUS internet critique and opinion are rarely taken seriously but there’s plenty of non-anonymous authorities making statements and communicating online. That’s how certain websites or online personalities are accorded more authority and credibility than others.
chinaSMACK itself is taken seriously enough to be notable precisely because it translates comments of ostensibly “genuine” but largely anonymous Chinese netizen comments.
So Mike, ask yourself what is “real” or “serious” commentary? If Jon Stewart made a funny but poignant comment on the internet, is it any less real or serious than the same comment made on TV, JUST because it wasn’t made on TV? How many Americans do you know are skeptical of Fox News or of all the financial news talking heads and shows that kept saying the economy was going to be okay right up to the point it wasn’t? I know you said “most” but I trust you understand and agree with what I’m saying.
What exactly did I say that you’re begging to differ with this response? I never said there are honest, free newspapers or TV outlets in China, did I? I simply said that the extremists tend to be the most vocal AND that there are a lot of honest, free opinions expressed on China’s internet, as shown to us by chinaSMACK, GVO, CDT, etc. Do you disagree with this?
I agree there is alot of free expression by Chinese people on the internet(there is a Chinese internet?) and even occasionally some in print, Southern Weekly for example.
“Anti-Chinese French on a Plane”… a roller coaster thrill ride of terrifying anti-Chinese french rudeness and heinous halitosis… starring Samuel L. Jackson as the little Chinese girl.
*Spolier Alert* She kills them all in amusing, ultra-violent ironic fashions followed by snappy punchlines, such as jamming the frog leg dinner down the one dude’s throat and saying “now you croaked” or tossing one French baddie out the plane door and him getting impaled on the Eifel Tower and saying “Vive la… FUCK YOU… France” or ripping off one of the dude’s heads and saying “Auction this!”
LOL! See, we actually need more witty comments like this.
“C’est la vie” as we say :-)
I wish all the comments in this post could be retro-injected in the orignal Chinese website. Would be interesting to see the netizen reaction for sure.
If that happened, I’d actually be afraid of the Chinese suddenly banding together, discarding their own genuine skepticism of this piece, and instead patriotically opposing the foreigners who dare be skeptical and critical of what is ostensibly something written by a Chinese person about Chinese people being discriminated against.
Then again, I rarely see any non-Chinese person bothering to engage in discourse or debate with the Chinese, whereas I’ve seen far more Chinese bravely venture out of their comfort zones using a foreign language they’re not the most fluent in to express their disagreements with the very people that are criticizing them.
I wonder if Fauna would be willing to translate English comments into Chinese so more Chinese people with no English skills can understand more of what many non-Chinese people think of them, to help Chinese people see a “slice of non-Chinese life.”
Actually, I wonder if she does that already…
Kai,
The debate would not go anywhere period. The Chinese debater would not admit fault of anything. As facts are presented he / she will just get emotional and take out the victim, developing country card. Ultimately the adrenal glands opens up and creates a product called nationalism and next thing you see him / her waving a red flag the size of a Toyota Prado …..and a 5000 years of history card.
The end.
I agree, but it doesn’t mean you don’t try. My point still stands that even if they’re stunted in the “having a rational debate” category, I still see MORE Chinese people trying (if failing) to engage in discourse with non-Chinese in English than I ssee non-Chinese trying to egange in discourse with non-Chinese in Chinese. A lot of non-Chinese just confine themselves to their pockets of like-minded foreigners so they can collectively whine about the Chinese, content to conclude that they already tried but the Chinese are just too stupid and stubborn to listen to the civilized foreigner who knows better.
Harsh, right? But its quite true much of the time. How many foreigners do you know are browsing and participating on Chinese discussion forums, trying to fight the good fight in the trenches of popular opinion where it might actually matter because you’re reaching the Chinese people? Or are most of them commenting on English language blogs with their English speaking compatriots about how stupid the Chinese are?
This kind of forum for exchange between Chinese speakers and English speakers is really the cutting edge of China vs. the World cross-cultural communication. Did anyone out there think that real meaningful deep understanding would happen overnight? The whole friggin world gets America or the UK because generations and generations of every nationality have grown up there and been part of their fabric. China started to have that before the civil war, but after new China and until the last decade particpation by foreigners in China and the intimate experience and understanding that comes with it was nearly impossible. Now it is.
> Harsh, right? But its quite true much of the time. How many foreigners do you know are browsing and participating on Chinese discussion forums, trying to fight the good fight in the trenches of popular opinion where it might actually matter because you’re reaching the Chinese people?
It’s not quite the same, but that’s part of why I come here. As much as I would love to study Chinese, too, I’m already studying Japanese in my free time and I can’t find even half as much good material to study from (“Ni hao Kai-lan” doesn’t cut it). Even with some cross-over between hanzi and kanji, I don’t think I have any hope of being even marginally competent at writing Chinese in the next few years. Unlike China where English is part of their education, the only languages my school was able to offer were French and Spanish. For the record, I took French.
@ Joe #2:
Yes, of course it isn’t quite the same, but I think you understood and agree with my point.
I just think its really ironic that all these “Westerners” fashion themselves to be oh so much more enlightened and open-minded than the Chinese yet all too often their behavior and rhetoric is really not that much better than the Chinese, who at least have the excuse of being largely poor, underdeveloped, and socialized by a more manipulative government. Of course, you have people like FDLR who is both aware of and shameless with his double-standard simply because he doesn’t care. But then you have so many others who spew the same retarded arguments and racist justifications the Chinese do yet think they’re exempt simply because they’re not Chinese, grew up in the West, and hence could not possibly be accused of the same intolerance and immaturity evident in so many Chinese.
Heh, I studied French too.
Kai, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I stay away from that scene completely precisely for that reason.
You need to learn how to debate an issue without coming across as self-righteous. Chinese are more sensitive than most nationalities, but not that much more sensitive.
In the case of this article, both parties had “bravely venture out of their comfort zones using a foreign language they’re not the most fluent in to express their disagreements” since it seems they were arguing in English…
Yep, and that’s a good thing. The Chinese girl first sought solace in whining about the Fench in Chinese with the Chinese flight attendant and then the French started shouting in French after the Chinese girl said it ironic they’re flying on an American airline.
BTW, don’t get me wrong. I’m not insisting that everyone learn each other’s languages just to have opinions. My point isn’t about languages, it’s about sincerity in communication. The Chinese who venture out to argue (however awfully they do so) with Westerners they feel are being unfairly critical of China are usually doing so out of a sincerely intent to communicate. I don’t think the same can be said of most Westerners who bitch and whine about the Chinese on English blogs. Does anyone really think Westerners criticizing the Chinese on English blogs sincerely think by doing so they’re really communicating to the Chinese to help them become better?
“[...] the Chinese suddenly banding together, discarding their own genuine skepticism of this piece, and instead patriotically opposing the foreigners who dare be skeptical and critical of what is ostensibly something written by a Chinese person about Chinese people being discriminated against.”
That’s one, if not the main, reason why foreigners (especially Westerners) don’t debate with Chinese people. The Chinese don’t take criticism, and in the end it’s just boring.
Of course, i’m talking “in general”…
I was quoting Kai’s comment.
Can’t agree more with 我是你妈二爷,there lies great possibility the silly cunt fabricates the story to arouse nationalism or distract reader’s attention with detailed story.
Incidentally,if the story is true, it’s time for us to notice the children top-class of Chinese are beginning to ask for more freedom and protection worldwidely ,just as the Chinese Property Law which is been implemented last year to protect their wealth,this may be dangerous to the CCP’s govern.
China has to be great and maybe greater before all such B….S…stops ! The west (especially france) have to understand that the imperial era is over and gone. France is down the drain ! just wait and see what will China do with all the BS happening lately in France. Who will have the last laugh ???
What do you mean?
Just for you, i hope it’s France…
It sounds like self promotion to me.
The country has shed 20 million jobs, the year has numerous ‘anniversaries’, the amount of tainted capital increased many folds, there is now possible deflation due to excess to be exported products, there are more drivers with red (asshole) plates on the daily. Therefore its a no brainer they (the party) want to direct the people[s] frustration and anger onto anything but them. As for the auction, you didn’t see all this hubub when Mr. Ho from Macau purchased (unlike Cai the buzzcut defaulter) the Horse head at Sotheby did you?
To be fair, the price of the Horse head was significantly less and the auctioner didn’t make a Tibetan political statement out of the auction by using the head as blackmail. Context, buddy, context.
It doesn’t matter if it was cheaper its the principal of not buying the looted item back period. Also, the lawyers were banding together before Berge made that inappropriate remark. Chronology, buddy, chronology.
Refer to my comments in the actual bronze head auction post. I said there is a line where before that, people may be willing to solve a problem with money, but beyond that, they go with principle. What, you’ve never heard of principle giving way to pragmatism sometimes?
The expected and starting pricing for the recent two heads were announced before Berge made his statement and before there was popular opposition to buying the heads at those prices. You said there wasn’t this much hubbub surrounding the horse head, so I’m giving you the context as to why there has been more hubbub this time. You speak of chronology but did you really take it into account with your previous remark? If you did, you wouldn’t need me to point out these things such as the huge increase in price because you’d KNOW how much the horse head was acquired for PREVIOUSLY. Again, context.
Bronze horse head was acquired for $8.84 million now tell me the starting price of the rat and rabbit head then well talk…no need to mention the final price as that was not tangible.
Sure, let’s take a look at this NYT article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/world/asia/03auction.html
Emphases: LoL, awesome aside there, the NYT has its moments.
So, the pig’s head was $1 million.
The horse’s head jumped up to $8.84 million 4 years later.
Two years later, the rat and rabbit head comes out and are valued at 8-10 million EUROS (not dollars) each.
Reference:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-zodiac24
http://www.reuters.com/article/artsNews/idUSTRE51M69520090223
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/16/content_10829310.htm
Stanley Ho paid less than 10 million USD for 2 heads. Berge wanted 10 million USD for ONE head. When it came time for auction, he wanted 10-13 million USD for one head.
Cai made the winning bid at 18 million USD per head to make a statement. Not everyone agrees with it and the consequences of his statement for other Chinese, but that’s what he did.
Is this tangible enough for you?
The tragedy in all of the arguments on chinaSMACK over the bronze head was that not a single person saw fit to actually delve into the 1995 Unidroit Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Objects that both China and France agreed to.
http://www.unidroit.org/…1995culturalproperty-e.htm
Note from Fauna: I edit the link because it was making the comment too wide.
*sigh* Kai. Article 3.
Those items don’t match the previous conditions, therefor:
“(5) Notwithstanding the provisions of the preceding paragraph, any Contracting State may declare that a claim is subject to a time limitation of 75 years or such longer period as is provided in its law. A claim made in another Contracting State for restitution of a cultural object displaced from a monument, archaeological site or public collection in a Contracting State making such a declaration shall also be subject to that time limitation.”
I’ll also add to save thread that there’s a lot of recent posts identifying other good arguments as to why the whole pin thing negates the validity of this bullshit story.
LoL, gotcha, Rick.
First, I’m amused that you sighed at me, co-opting this piece of international law, pretending like you were even remotely aware of its existence, and passing it off as if your previous arguments and position were all legitimized by something I’ve pro-actively offered up to you. Rick, I’m not that stupid.
Second, there a reason why the Unidroit isn’t so popularly referenced or alluded to throughout this entire controversy, and why you should be wary of gifts from your opponent that seemingly benefit you. Had you actually read the entire piece, you would’ve noted this catch-all loop-hole:
The legalese in international law is fraught with these.
Next, you really should’ve read the next part:
Note specifically Items 1a/1b and Item 3.
This is what we call one of those limp-dick international laws that infuriate tax-payers wondering just what the hell their diplomats are actually doing because just about nothing is enforcable and everything has an WRITTEN exception or loophole.
Nonetheless, it was cute watching you go “A-hah! I got you now, Kai!” while you smugly type out “sigh.” Again, Rick, not that easy. I said it was tragic because I was just waiting for someone to fall into that trap in the previous post. I admit I was a little disappointed that so many people thought it was sufficient to just justify their positions with insults against the Chinese.
As for the issue of pins on flight attendant uniforms:
There is Aircrew Sue who cites American airlines having “strict policies” against pins. She said this was “further enforced” after 9/11, most likely because no one wanted their American flight attendant to be targeted while flying abroad.
Rick, as yourself, how can something be “further enforced” if it there is ZERO possibility for any flight attendant to have NOT obeyed those “strict policies” before?
I’m just asking you to acknowledge the very real and reasonable possibility that EVEN if there was a rule, SOMEONE may not have followed it, and that someone could be the flight attendant in this story. I’m asking you to acknowledge that there are FAR BETTER elements of this story that make it suspicious than this ONE detail.
Aside from Aircrew Sue, there was also Mick who claims to have worked for Air New Zealand and a pin was allowed.
If we want to be definitive about this, the story had to have identified the airline so we could at least consult the airline’s policies. Even after that, we still need to acknowledge that the very real possibility exists that the flight attendant may have violated “strict policies”, evaded “further enforcement”, and wore her damn China flag pin.
While we’re going for anecdotal evidence, I can also testify that I have seen plenty of USA flag pins on flight attendents even and especially post-9/11. Are you going to call me a liar?
The pin thing alone is FAR from negating the validity of this story. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to account for the possibility, even plausibility, of a proud Chinese flight attendant wearing a small China flag pin especially during the run up to the Olympics. There are good arguments for suspecting this entire story to be fake, and the pin thing isn’t one of them.
Why was the horse head significantly cheaper? They were both taken at the same time and made of the same stuff…hmm let me guess because these moron made a huge thing out of it and gave it some free press and publicity and up the ante of the original value of it.
Well played lawyers, well played China.
Have you done even cursory research into the auctioning of the zodiac bronze heads? Each time a Chinese person has bought the heads back, the next one was put up at a significantly higher price. The difference this time was it finally went high enough for interested Chinese bidders to make a statement on how ridiculous it is becoming.
It is much more complex than just thinking the price got ridiculous. There is a tide of nationalism at work a lingering feeling of past humiliation wanting to prove to the world and a current increase of economic shift which is distributing the confidence of some Chinese people and China to push its weight around more effectively. Admit it, a few years back prior to Olympics people could care less about this and the people themselves were destroying priceless places to make way for real estate and commericials (look that up on Chinadaily). Funny how they all of a sudden ‘cared’ and gave a bronze rabbit and rats ass about these things.
Yes, it is more complex, but you complicating it in the wrong ways. I’ve mentioned all this before in the other post but there is qualitatively different emotional implications between plowing your own hutongs for the Olympics and being asked to pay X millions to get back something that was stolen from you in one of your nation’s most humiliating and weakest moments. THAT is the complexity and context that would help you understand what happened, instead of the faux complexity you’re alluding to in hopes of justifying your position. As I said in the comments of that post, it is a stupid argument to say these relics belong in Western hands because the Chinese have historically destroyed their artifacts. Which society hasn’t? It’s their decision to do what they wish with their property.
The MAIN confounding issue with the bronze heads here was the confounding “line of ownership.” It’s hard to decide what is fair when Berge (rather YSL) paid good money for them. Arguments about anything else are all built on sand. Most people here have resorted to racist/nationalmistic arguments instead of actually tackling the real legal problems. Why? Because its easier to malign your opponent than to deal with the real contention.
So western society doesnt understand China and China doesnt understand western society. It’s natural, different philosophy, different family make up, different history, different medicine, different language, different culture.
Give it another hundred or 2 hundred years, when there are more Westerners who are born and live in China, who grew up in China surrounded by Chinese culture, we’ll understand each other.
Enough of this silly story
The best description of this “story” that I have heard yet: fenqing porn. Except it isn’t even as believable as porn.
Someone mentioned that this person knew the flight attendant’s nationality from a “pin” or badge.
INCORRECT
Major US airlines with crews flying blocks or routes outside the US have strict policies that political or national designations, badges, garments and other such accessories are strictly prohibited. This was further enforced post 9/11 when crew were asked to remove patriotic stickers from their overnight bags.
This is to avoid crew members being singled out in cases of terrorism, hijack or diversion to a location where individual crew members might be singled out for “special treatment”.
During cabin announcements are allowed to go as far as state the languages that the crew can speak BETWEEN THEM but not give individual names and their capabilities.
Also, it is most unlikely that a crew member would engage in any political discussion or criticism of any individual or group of people on a leg. They would be in serious trouble and the mythical young lady would more than likely be politely asked to return to her seat.
Finally, there’s absolutely no way
NO WAY A CREW MEMBER WOULD BE WEARING A BADGE OR PIN, IT MIGHT PUNCTURE THEIR’S OR SOMEONE ELSE’S LIFE JACKET IN THE EVENT OF A CFIT OR WATER LANDING.
Quote: “The young lady looked at him and then looked at the five star red flag pin/brooch on her uniform before politely telling him: “No, sir, did you see this? I am Chinese”
CASE CLOSED
Word. Lots of people suspected this story was fake, but you’ve nailed it.
Okay, this is preposterous.
Do an image search for flight attendants or flight attendant uniforms on Google or whatever and you’ll see plenty of flight attendants from various airlines wearing pins.
For anyone who has flown, flight attendants know to remove anything that would puncture inflation devices before getting on those inflation devices, just like the passengers. This includes pins, brooches, and sharp jewellery like rings and earrings.
Here, I’ll even link to some photos for you:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/376420@N20/
Go ahead, I’ll wait. If you look closely, not only do many of these uniforms incorporate pins, some of them are flag pins. If you don’t trust this pool of photos on Flickr, go ahead and do a wider search on Google. There are MILLIONS of pictures out there. Are you going to insist that no flight attendants wear pins in the face of both common sense and photographic evidence?
There’s a difference between a personal article displayed on the company uniform and a fuckin flight eagle ‘official’ brooch or a company standard name tag. I only looked through the first 20 or 30 of those photos you linked to, and saw no personal articles displayed on their uniforms.
TALK TO SOME FLIGHT ATTENDANTS. Seriously, they’re not so hard to find, ask around.
To clarify, I just got a very clear answer on this, “Hm..no, but you can wear 2 personal HAIR PINS. Just nothing on UNIFORM.” It may vary from airline to airline, but the personal shit on uniform, I seriously doubt, varies.
I thought you lived in US. You seriously think nobody would say shit if a girl puts a COMMUNIST RED STAR on her uniform and prances around? It would probably make some older passengers furious. You should know how US thinks of commies….and in a situation like this, how *totally unrealistic* that situation becomes. A pin, *MAYBE*, a commy pin? *get over yourself*.
Rick, you’re being willfully ignorant and losing your marbles.
You claim flight attendants can’t wear pins. I prove that they can and do.
You now say they can’t wear flag pins. I’ve proven that they can and do. Look at more pictures, you know I wasn’t referring to the flight wings alone. You’re sticking your head in the ground refusing to accept the evidence before your eyes.
You now fall back to “well, they can’t wear COMMIE pins in America!!!”
Rick, it was a small Chinese national flag, not a fucking swastika. Chinese flags appeared all over the world in 2008 and not just during annoying protests. Whatever your personal ideological distaste for the Chinese flag being associated with communism, it was still a flag that was prominently displayed without political overtones on countless commercial collateral and in countless situation. Why? Because it was 2008, the year of the Beijing Olympics in China. Few people took issue with Chinese people being proud of China by sporting a pin or some other China identifier, just as few people took issue with Americans sporting US Flags post-9/11. It was, in context, entirely understandable, reasonable, and mostly accepted without anyone getting their panties in a twist.
I certainly think some Americans or some people would be opposed to a Chinese person wearing a Chinese flag in front of them, like you apparently. However, there are laws in the United States that empower and protect people who wear such flags as a form of speech and self-expression. As an American yourself, this should be a no-brainer. Yet you’re ranting about reds right now.
There is nothing unrealistic about wearing a Chinese flight attendant wearing a small Chinese flag to show her pride or support of the 2008 Beijing Olympics in 2008. In fact, it is rather plausible, as plausible as the FACT that many American flight attendants sported US flag pins post-9/11 (though I’m certain many stopped after they were made aware of how it might dangerously brand them if they’re doing so on flights outside of America as Aircrew Sue said).
Again, you’re being willfully ignorant, and its kinda sad how you’re now making Americans all out to be such commie-haters that they can’t even accept a Chinese person wearing a flag in her country’s big year. Fuck, why did the Americans go to China or broadcast the Olympics if it would make all Americans as “furious” as you say?
Willfully ignorant? like I said, speak to some REAL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS.
Rick, YES, willfully ignorant.
You’re taking the word of one flight attendant you said you asked over the photographic evidence present on the internet. Which is more likely to be convincing, whether in a court of law or not? The testimony of your own flight attendant friend or the testimony of so many flight attendants who have pictures of themselves wearing pins?
Rick, just take what I’ve said or shown you and consult with your flight attendant friend to see what she says. Maybe she’ll explain more. If she still insists that pins are not allowed on planes, then we’re back at an impasse between her word and these pictures.
Next, Rick, did you see USTCer’s post below? Like many other people, you rushed to conclude and argue that this entire story MUST be fake. I took issue with you initially because I thought your reasons were bad for concluding without a doubt that this was all nonsense. Now, USTC has found the person who wrote it and you have the option to contact her, confront her directly, and accuse her of writing lies. Will you?
Look, there’s still a possibility that she’s a Chinese hyper-nationalist. There’s still a possibility that she’s a hopeless liar. There’s still a possibility that she completely misunderstood or misrepresented the French people she met on her flight. You can ask her if that flight attendant really did wear a “commie flag” while on duty. You can ask her if that flight attendant really said those things about French personal hygiene. You can find the truth now.
You weren’t content to leave open the possibility that this story could be authentic. You insisted it must be fake. I tried to reason with you that you’re jumping to conclusions. You’ve argued with me and treated me as a simpleton who is being ridiculous for doubting the wisdom of your judgement and arguments. USTCer did the hard lifting. Are you reasonable enough to either confront the person who wrote this story or, AT THE VERY LEAST, acknowledge that you may have jumped to conclusions about a lot of things relating to this story?
i would need to disagree with you on this. Philippine airlines flight attendant wear copper pins through out the whole flight :)
It seems that nobody here cares about asking the author whether the story is true. After a brief search I got her blog and the original post:
http://my.backchina.com/space.php?uid=177161&do=blog&id=26179
The author is a mother with two children, currently living in US (not France). I asked her about the article’s authenticity and she opened a new post (in Chinese) to respond to criticism here. She’s not quite happy that the article was translated without notice so I suggest commenting there if you have questions to ask.
BTW, some of her other posts are quite well written and entertaining to read, especially one about her American colleagues.
USTCer… cool. Thanks for the research.
Thanks a lot.
Unfortunately, it seems it impossible to acces to this blog from my computer in Beijing. Harmonized ?
Mike Fish and petit bonheur,
You are welcome! Not sure whether it’s blocked or not in China. I have no problem opening it here in Texas USA.
I was able to open it using a proxy. Wouah ! The comments on this article are just freacking ! Incredible !
By the way, it is quite ironical that, for some reason, it is impossible to read and appreciate the litterature of these “patriots” in their own country…
Awesome, USTCer. The website is inaccessible in China and those in China may need a proxy to view it. Why it is blocked could be for any number of reasons. For those who have researched how China’s “Great Firewall” blocks outside internet content, you’ll find that a lot of innocent websites get blocked just because they share an IP address with another website that Chinese government wanted to block. There’s a lot of collateral damage.
USTCer, I don’t think she was “not quite happy” it was translated. I think someone merely commented to her that THEY felt chinaSMACK should’ve contacted her first before translating though I don’t think chinaSMACK found this article on her blog but rather through reposts of it on BBS forums. She did seem to express being unhappy with the many commenters here who thought she was lying though.
Yes, you seem to be right. I reread the post and find her discontent came mostly from the comments instead of the translation.
Dear all,
I am sorry but as a french working in Asia for a few times now, I have to admit you encounter the wrong french people.
First of all we don’t all smell bad or I would have issue working with client or hanging out with local friends.
Secondly, It’s true that we as people are not really used to follow rules, but it does not mean we are anoying people.
I feel sorry that this girls meet the wrong people, nonetheless most of the french people are friendly.
If I could meet her myself to introduce some french friend then she could realize that it was just a wrong misunderstanding with bad people.
Either this is a fake story and it really broke my hearth knowing that some people can try to destroy the reputation of a country just for pride.
Either this is a true story and I hope the people involved will be able to find nice French people to chat with because this is clearly not representative.
Pierre the Asian French :)
Even though I stopped reading half way through, and amuse me was the roof of the plane was intact after so many arguments?
Sometimes it is hard to believe, but it is very dramatic!
The story is fake. Big time. Thank chinasmack of sharing with us such a nice piece of nationalistic garbage.
Chinese flags are not used by airlines – we had this problem when I was at Air New Zealand and Chinese speaking cabin crew were first recruited. A Chinese flag could not be used because it would alienate Taiwanese and Singaporean passengers. In the end I believe they went with a “Nin Hao/Huanying Nin!” pin.
Otherwise, an entertaining piece of creative writing.
at the end of the day, the chinese are still way too uptight and the french are still annoying and act like a bunch of crybabies…… in reality, the chinese and the french are pretty similar.
I’m borned in France even though I have chinese roots. It’s make me so sad that my two country are in tension since the Tibetain’s manifestation. How? Why? A year ago France was very popular in chinese’s heart, my grandpa also tell me that he was proud that my father came in France. But now I truly don’t know what happened.
I’m living in France, so I read french newspaper, and it’s a true that they are a little biased. They have always seen chinese like if they still in 1989’s revolution. But this is changing.
But I agreed that some commentary from
But I agreed that some commentary from website make me angry, always making pregudice… (chinese and french, but French begin :/). They are rude.
I’m I taking it too seriously? I hope… :D
Ok, let’s live happily. I’ll promote China when I’m in France, and I’ll promote France when I’m in China.
Longue vie à l’amitié Franco-chinoise! (même si ça fait un peu ringart de dire ça… héhé)
And sorry for my bad english…
“The most ignorant yet brainwashed idiots are all those double-crossers, those scum and small people who not only do not help their own but build up others with their eyes wide open! A compatriot no matter how wrong is still your compatriot. No matter how civilized an outsider pretends to be they are still an outsider. This should be understood clearly.”
And there it is for everyone in the outside world (Outside of Chimatron ville). Chinese honestly believe they have it not only figured out but that they are the center of the universe and that everyone needs to follow the “light” of “Chinese Civilization” . They love to pour over abstract facts, especially about a history long since forgotten by the rest of the world (i.e. 8 powers invasion) and gloss over the 100’s of billions of dollars of international investment that fuels their economy, builds more efficient forms of infrastructure, and trains the Chi Mates how to actually get things done.
The fact is that we (the west) have only ourselves to blame for allowing the chi mates to behave the way they do in our countries. This biyatch on the plane only represents what China is today. A bunch of whiney babies with a chip on their shoulders, trying to be number one when they are still only number 3.
We could never act out in China the way they did in other countries during the torch relay in China. We would be beaten, fined, and shipped out. Maybe we need to start thinking about sending the chi mates back home. One thing I can’t stand about all this freedom we have is that we allow ourselves to be insulted even on our own back porch in the name of “freedom of speech”. Maybe its time to emulate the DLR system and bounce these monkeys back to the “motherland”
There is the same proportion of stupid people everywhere, it’s not a problem of nationality, it’s a problem of stupidity !
Usually the most stupid people hide behind a flag (or a sport team) to feel strong.
Oh come off it, FDLR. Selective reading, much? Are you seriously going to cherry-pick ONE comment out of all the translated Chinese netizen comments above calling this girl a stupid cunt or otherwise accusing it of being a fake propaganda piece and pass it off as if it was what all Chinese say/think/feel.
But I’m taking you too seriously, FDLR. You yourself has admitted as much that you behave like a whiny baby with a chip on your shoulder on this website to vent. Okay, you refer to yourself as a “whiny baby” but you’ve admitted doing the very same whining that you accuse the Chinese of. ;)
Heh, I agree, I think Westerners could emulate the Chinese system. I just don’t think they’re willing to give up their smug sense of self-righteousness and moral superiority just yet. If Westerner give up their ideals, they’d suddenly have nothing to feel different and thus superior to the Chinese. ;)
What another load of twoddle, i wouldnt be suprised if this wasnt some sort of sanctioned propagander in itself. In times of insecurity, blindless nationalism in china is on the rise, dont be taken in by this clearly unreliable irrelivant story.
I lived in china for a long time and speak mandarin and have plenty of french freinds who are not the least bit arrogant here. The people i do find arrogant and warped when in their mindset if you do get truely down to what they think are alot of the young chinese.
Ask them if they cheered when 9/11 happened?
I love people here in many ways, but really i find the young soo nationalistically self confident, blinded and narrow minded.
I hope we western peopel stand up for our values, and read betweem the lines a little more.
Dont get taken in by this ridiculous sob story.
Just as i remember the chinese youth protests in Manchester last year similarly mentioned in this article. The chinese students i spoke to didnt even know any what so ever of what western protests were even about. What i do know for sure that those chinese protests in manchester/london were state sanctioned for all chinese to do their “patriotic duty” to get onto the streets.
I to some degree give up on changing chinese peoples minds about anything, if i try to show someone images, books or alternative opinions they would say ” I am not interested in politics” or do not even want to see.
But i do hope westerners remember to look a little bit deeper and to see things for what they really are.
This thread has potential.
Probably not true but that doesn’t really matter. The fact is that the author has tried to paint themselves in a positive light, but has, in the process, used the same childish, blindly nationalistic, prejudice and stereotype enthused discourses that she accuses the French actors of, to argue and defend her own position.
Another point.. what exactly is wrong with;
“chatting and drinking, pressing the stewardess call light, opening the window shades of the passenger cabin”???
Is there some in-flight etiquette I have missed? I didn’t realise that these are things that one shouldn’t do!
Douche Bags come in all shapes and sizes.
Kai,
You are kinda right. The other day one of my colleagues was telling me how unfair it is that “foreigners” make so much more money than Chinese and are “treated better” And how foreigners benefit so much from China’s prosperity. Its that kind of arrogant crap I get tired of every day.
Treated better? China’s money? Did China suddenly become a living breathing being that has a conscious? So does that mean the millions upon millions of Chinese benefitting from western education, exports, and movie deals (Jet Li and Jackie Chan) should not be afforded those “benefits”?
Last time I checked I got paid more because I can do what they cant. And btw, I work for an AMERICAN company who gets screwed not by other western companies, but by local jack asses who hide under their red and yellow starred “masterpiece”
That is why I am ranting today. This hoe can go back to the motherland then, wtf is she doing in france if china is so great STAY THERE.
Alex is right, I give up too. And to the people saying that there are “people like this all over the world” I would counter with there is the LARGEST concentration of brainwashed idiots in the world in CHINA :)
Let the games begin
Hahaha…you call them out on arrogance, and display it at the same time, very cute.
Yeah right, and you the biggest of them. Really, with China’s population, we don’t really need you help on this, but here you are, showing everybody.
These French people in the plane are probably among the sheep who voted Sarkozy.
Mmm.. this is so wrong.
We should write about all the things that bring Chinese and French people together, not about what can set them apart.
Most Chinese people I know are nice, good-tempered, open minded, willing to share. A few are rude, dirty, self-centered.
I could say the same thing about French people I know, or about any other nationalities actually…
Can somebody please also explain to me why Chinese absolutely not fathom that we can understand China? What is so complex that we “can’t possibly” understand? One of my friends who was in China for over twenty years had only this to say to me when I asked her what she thought was the most important thing for me to understand in starting my career in China.
Her reply, “don’t trust Chinese, watch your back, get your money up front” That is all she could tell me after 20 years of being here, a white woman, married to a chinese, two kids, and a pillar of the business and charity community. You know what? She was right.
The funny part is your generalizations about people are the same as the OP.
that’s true the world over
Looks like someone didn’t do their homework with this piece of propaganda. But nevertheless, it achieved it’s goal.
Why are you such an idiot?
Because it takes one to know one.
If you want some real ideas, not your drivel, visit my website.
You could be a propaganda writer for the government for all we know… Can you prove that you’re not? And no, I don’t take anyone’s word for it, I’ve met too many lying Chinese to take any Chinese’ word to be the gospel truth.
To prove anything in a court of law, you need evidences and witnesses.
So if I visit your website I will know you’re telling the truth? Ah…I wasn’t born yesterday…
I am a propaganda writer for the government.
A nice story… but no cigar. If anything, it seems to be geared to phishing out poster’s emotions and feelings. Wonder who is recording all of this data?
Poor Chinese people who are so great :..(
blablablabla..
Baaaad French frogs who are so insignificants
blablabla…
+ put some more racist n fascist generalities about how great you are and how much we suck.
And here you have the recipe for this thread and most of the comments I’ve read.
Damn, is this really a “SMACK” in China???? This is just pathetic..
After all this story and comments, I believe this story is true.
@ kai, you were all right back above there.
Don’t know why people are seeing it throught different point of view.
What about “bad mouth odor”? Ultima ratio for this kind of conversation?
“don’t trust Chinese, watch your back, get your money up front.”
That is pretty much what any Chinese person who actually has your interests at heart will tell you. And yet Chinese still lament that “if foreigners could just understand China they would understand that we’re wonderful peaceful people incapable of doing harm, and there would be no market for the China threat theory.” Sorry to disappoint, but I used to stand up for China, until I could read Chinese well enough to really be able to follow things. Not anymore.
I have had a chance to live in China for a while and it is a great place, and people who say that Chinese have been brainwashed are totally wrong, I mean they just love their country and they are nationalists, why is that such a bad thing.
5 mao, cha-ching
5 mao cha-ching
Tommy, if you go around accusing any Chinese person who says something contrary to your opinion as being Wu Mao Dang, I’m not sure I’m surprised you have “NEVER EVER” met any Chinese willing to have a frank and honest conversation about the flaws/mistakes of their country/people.
Adeel didn’t even say anything incredibly suspicious of being Wu Mao Dang. Come on, man.
Some people do not like Chinese. So what. I am English and I get it all the time… mostly about N.Ireland, iraq and some colonial shit. Americans get it all the time. No doubt the French do also, and Germans and Japanese. Hey! It’s normal. The only people who do not have this experience are people fron insignificant countries – places no one hasdheard of or places too small to bother anyone.
Come on Chinese! Welcome to the party! Now – stop feeling so victimised – grow up a little and take it in your stride.
This is a propaganda article. It’s so easy to bash the french. Pathetic. And what is even more pathetic is that I doubt its even true.
Whatever. Good job ‘brave’person…
wow.. I just commmented. but damn! I kind of read through it again.. This is SO fake!!
–”“Nonsense, us French people would never do this kind of thing!”
“Oh really? Do you know Victor Hugo?”
Surprised, he said: “He is the pride of our people! You also know him?” ” –
Cmon, does anyone think this actually happened? And the flight attendant with the Chinese flag pinned on her uniform!?
What is the real reason for this article? I am sick of this racist/nationalistic BS! Sickening!
“He is the pride of our people”
Come on! Chinese people don’t talk this way about Lu Xun, why would anyone believe that the French talk this way about Hugo?
obviously another propaganda coup by the chinese against the french who had the incident with the olympic torch and this auction.
biiiiiiig coincidence that it is on chinasmack now huh?
chinasmack is also just a bitch of the chinese government.
France is socialist, it is not far from communism, therefore their hatred toward Chinese could only be coming from their xenophobia or racism. No wonder Asians come to America instead of Europe. a little aqua Dior cannot overpower your stinky sweat glands and a beret cannot hide your baldness.
Dude, France is not much more ’socialist’ than any other western country, in fact it is less socialist in many respects than Sweden, Germany, Ireland, and the UK. As for Asians going to the US, it depends what part of Asia you are talking about, Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis still prefer Europe.
Oh yes, socialism. So much worse than the good ol’ US of A where millions of middle-class citizens go bankrupt because of healthcare costs.
Yep, I’d sure like to get rid of our awful national health service. Too socialist for me. If you get ill, it’s your own fault, and no-one but you should pay the bill.
I apologize for all of my comments. I was off my medication and have a very small penis. So, I take it out on Chinese people and the world in general. Also, my mommy doesn’t love me.
This story is obviously bogus, though it is useful to note that opening a window shade on an international flight is an act of inhuman aggression against all Chinese, and I shall certainly refrain from doing so in the future. After all, only an animal would use a window shade to subvert the Chinese state, or warp the hearts and minds of Chinese youth.
A crappy little argument on a plane.
I start to become addicted to this article… Really… The more I read it, the more I believe it’s a fake. From the start. For example, who would be surprised to see an Asian flight attendant on an American airline flight? The United-States, and also France, are a country of ethnic diversity. For most of the people, an Asian ethnic flight attendant on an American Airline would probably be American…
The question about the nationality of the flight attendant is more a “Chinese” question than a “French” question: it is very common in China to ask an unknown person about it’s origin (country, region, laojia…), it is part of the presentation. It is very rare in France. French people usually don’t dare to do so. The “beautiful young lady” also looks much more like a Chinese form of politeness to address to a woman, but not French at all.
So, I would vote for a kind of shanzhai essay…
Having said that, part of the debate was about the behavior of French people in foreign countries. Well, it should not be very good since French people have a so bad reputation… As so do have the German in Europe, and also some American people elsewhere… I think one the problem of French people abroad is their bad command of English language and of American etiquette. The dominant cultural model in the world being the North American model, it is quite difficult for non-American and non-English natives to adapt themselves.
Furthermore, off coursem the policy of Sarkozy – especially toward China is difficult to understand…
On the other hand, some Chinese people – especially young people – are too sensitive to foreign criticism. It is quite interesting that many Chinese people love to talk about politics with foreigner – but not Chinese politics! Sometimes, I was quite amused that some Chinese citizens or Chinese medias were totally ok with the fact they could criticize or mock foreign leaders but that it was very difficult for them to accept that foreigners were mocking or criticizing Chinese leaders…
China is becoming one of the very few superpowers in the world. As a superpower, it would be envied, admired and criticized. People burn American flags in many country in the world; more and more people will burn Chinese flags in the world. The raise of China as a superpower also brings – legitimates – questions and worries in other countries: what kind of future China proposes to the world? On what kind of values China is building its power? Up to now there were no very clear message from China to the world on many aspects: social and moral values, environment issues, international governance… Or there were conflicting messages: peaceful development against the rapid rise of Chinese military capacities, opening to the world but refusal of universalism, the fact that nationalism has been developed as an official doctrine in China, the use of emotion and Chinese mobs inside and outside China as a diplomatic tool, etc. The progress of China, the rise of China, the fact that China is one of the very few superpowers is totally legitimate, but what next?
Last year Olympics’ motto was “One World, One Dream”. We can question the idea of One Dream, which can be considered as a quite totalitarian idea and people may prefer the idea of “One World, multiple Dreams”. But also, what kind of dream is that? It was not explained.
Chinese people – and especially the young generation – should be prepared to accept these questions. It’s very difficult since the change has been so rapid. It is also difficult since the Chinese government itself doesn’t really want to hear these questions. But there are totally legitimate questions.
Accurate analysis, I agree with your points..would like to hear responses to some of your questions from Chinese netizens…
accept the criticism isn’t easy for chinese people, it needs time.but the young generation is the hope of china.
most Chinese people grew up by nationalism education and all medias control by government, during this brainwash process, all the oversea criticisms become personal effective. so it makes much harder to discuss and Chinese can get angry very quick, i was like that before as well.
to young Chinese you must find your own way to understand the criticism and see things separately.
most criticism is toward the government, not to the people. there are too many positive news everywhere, Chinese society needs criticism.
most important thing is you must find your own way to think,listen to yourself not the medias by government.
@ petit bonheur:
If you sincerely want answers from the Chinese to your questions, you really should look into having them translated and posted on Chinese BBS forums.
@ FangYao:
I think what a lot of people fail to appreciate is how this hypernationalism manifests itself most conspicuously amongst the younger generations who are using boundry-breaking media like the internet. The Chinese girl in the story actually alludes to this but very few Westerners actually pay attention to it except for a handful of academics, seasoned diplomats, and long-term expats.
Few people here are asking where this nationalism comes from and why it is more prevalent with certain demographics than others and how those demographics affect the expression of that hyper-nationalism. Is there more nationalism with the youth or their parents? Why? How is nationalism different between the cities and the interior? When is nationalism NOT invoked? When do Chinese people behave in contradiction to the Western generalization that Chinese are all brainwashed and WHY? Is anyone asking these questions? Thinking about them? Considering them?
No, too many people just prefer to take the lazy route and resort to sloppy arguments about Chinese brainwashing and nationalism. Seriously, how different is that from the idiotic Chinese who categorically paint foreigners as all being biased against China, as consipiring to keep China poor and undeveloped? It’s the same damn thing. It’s a fucking mirror. The two sides feed each other’s resentment using the same idiotic argumentative methods, both oh so confident that the other side is 100% wrong and themselves 100% innocent and right.
But I’m talking to a wall, aren’t I? It’s silly for me to beg these things of people who couldn’t care to be fair to each other because its just easier to have knee-jerk reactions and move on to the next stimulating thing the internet has to offer, right?
Sorry, FangYao, this is not directed at you. Your comment just made me think of these things.
Mr. Kai,
FYI, I don’t need to post on BBS to communicate with Chinese people… There is a life outside the web… You should try…
Oooh, burn~
hei kai i think you think too much,what are you talking about here. what is “100% wrong and themselves 100% innocent and right” we are talking about the criticism. nothing is 100% right or wrong in this world….
the reason why we call a lot of people brainwashed, because when comes to discuss and political topic, most Chinese get angry very easy and unreasonable mad. for this kind the action (brainwashed), so what can we do, patch them in the nose…..most of us stop talking and leave them alone….
in the world a lot of great ideas come form argue and debate，allow people to think more critically is better for the society.
@ FangYao:
不好意思让你误会了，我不是说你或指你，只是你的回复让我想起那些，我说的不是关于你的想法或看法。
I’m guessing you’re Chinese but in case you’re not, I just want to make clear that the bulk of my response was not about your thoughts. It was just that what you wrote made me think of these things. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I agree with what you’re saying. I’m just expressing my diappointment with people who think they, their people, their country, their “West” are 100% correct while the other person, other people, other country, or “the Chinese” are 100% wrong. Of course, few people will actually openly say this, but their behavior and absolutist arguments give me that impression. Do you understand what I mean now?
I also fully agree that debating and arguing is good. I also think that there are contructive ways to debate and argue, and then there are bad ways to debate and argue that only make the problem worse. I feel a lot of the debates and arguments here only contribute to the problem instead of helping.
@ petit bonheur:
It was a honest suggestion in concert with Rick in China expressing his desire to hear the responses from Chinese netizens.
I’m quite aware there’s a life outside the internet. I’m also quite aware that a lot of the garbage that gets spewed on the internet doesn’t get spewed in real life. I respond appropriately.
@ Rick in China:
Cute, please go back to the Unidroit.
To whoever posted under my name (obviously a chi mate), you only prove that you are weak chinese piece of shit :)
Don’t worry about it. It’s probably smickno trolling again. I remember he did that to a number of us including Rick and Teacher in China (iirc) awhile back. Next time I checked, Fauna had changed the fake names to smickno.
It wouldn’t be so bad if they were actually funny or even somewhat witty comments. Instead, he comes off like an angry nine year old. :)
In this time and space, that’s a very likely reality, no?
OUCH! Just as racist as the people you whine about, highly amusing.
+1
To whoever posted under my name… maybe it was me and I didn’t realize it… you only prove that I really am a total dick when I’m off my meds or when my mom tells me she doesn’t love me. Maybe if I changed my name and wasn’t such a twat people would listen to what I have to say… although that won’t change the fact that what I say is a giant pile of CRAP.
It seems the person who wrote this article was already themselves coming from a point of prejudice.
“I did not want the remainder of my journey to be spent in this kind of atmosphere, and concluded that their inhuman behavior was deliberate against us Chinese.”
And it goes on and on. Anyway, China is an oppressive state that does brainwash its citizens. It’s a sad fact but a fact nonetheless.
Your a sucker if you have “pride” in your (or any) country. Nationalism is for pigs.
So if an old man falls down, no-one helps him up, but if a girl argues with a foreigner [regardless of whether she is right or wrong] she is called a compatriot and supported.
This is really f****d up.
To OMG,
I posted that before I had my coffee. Let me see if I can come up with something a bit more witty…. eh hem
To the melanine infected, blue ring HS5N1 eating, Shaanxi slave owning, watch your wife drowning, Nanjing little girl bathroom molesting, mugwam, Chi mate… Please do not slander my name with your evil little pagan antagonistic comments you communist heathen.
Send yourself to the countryside for reformation of the mind and make some NIKEs in a sweat shop for me. Confess your crimes.
DLR
Heh, smickno’s from Singapore, not China.
Yeah but he is probably a DLR that defected to Singapore to spread Nationalism. How you doing Kai? Its been a while bro, I missed you. I have been working to hard to rant these days.
Hah, maybe, but I somehow doubt it. If he was a real DLR, his Chinese hyper-nationalism wouldn’t allow himself to develope a Singaporean superiority complex, right?
I’m doing fine, bro, heh. I anticipate getting busier soon myself, so I might soon might not have the time to either give you hell for ranting or remind the newbies here to not take your rants too seriously because you actually walk old Chinese grannies across the street in your spare time. ;)
Bro!!! Stop telling my secrets, somebody may think I don’t absolutely abhor the Chimatrons
I get it, it’s not your fault, your the victim, it’s the meds!
Forgot
/Chi mate
This is ridiculous. The only ones being racist here are the girl and her many supporters. That was one man’s opinion and she attributed it to all of France. Notice how she “imagined” what the man was thinking and feeling? She has NO way of knowing what he was thinking and to me it seems as if the girl was attributing emotions to the man. She was looking for an “icy glare and tone of resentment” and when he looked at her thats what she imaged she saw. Again, a logical argument is avoided here in favor of an emotional plea for emotional support, and people were eager to agree with her even though they were not there. Thats nationalism hard at work, and its dangerous.
Now she wrote a post about it to spread her resentment, giving only her biased and manipulated view, and she knew she easily could garnish a whole throng of online support from Chinese eager to express their nationalism. You’ll not easily find a blog post with 207 comments of hatred and nationalism if a Frenchman were to write of this same experience. Nor would you find a post with nationalistic/racist comments if someone in the West wrote such an emotional and illogical argument. The Chinese will never understand the West if all they do is band together in their opinions and put up walls of isolationism and never even try to see someone elses side. China has many supporters abroad, of which I am one, but I am very tired of supporting a country that, as a whole, will turn on any other country they “feel” dislikes them. Its childish and moreover its dangerous.
Oh the irony.
Funny how you accuse her of blaming an entire country for what one French person did yet you take one post by one Chinese girl (whom none of us are sure is real or not) and blame all of China and the Chinese for it.
Nationalism is a very real problem in China, but as others have said above, there are idiots on both sides.
This story did not originate on this blog. It originated on some Chinese forum where it got much more than 207 comments, some of which were translated above. As you’ll note, there were quite a few Chinese people who were skeptical of the story and even berated the poster.
This blog’s post’s ~207 comments actually come from mostly non-Chinese eager to express their hatred and disgust with the Chinese nationalism they see in this story. Some of these comments are pretty racist in of themselves.
Don’t you find it amusing, hypocritical, or at least ironic that so many Westerners will react to a Chinese story they perceive to be racist by being racist themselves?
Hm.
If you’ve never seen racist, hateful, emotional, and illogical arguments coming from Westerners, you’ve never visited YouTube.
BTW, I love how you lambast the Chinese for “turning on any other country they ‘feel’ dislikes them” while you vocally voice how tired you are of supporting a country that makes YOU “feel” like they dislike you, your country, or your West. Doesn’t it sound like you’re turning on the Chinese? Doesn’t it sound like you’re doing the exact same thing? Congratulations, we’re all pots and kettles.
Now please, get over yourself, and go read YouTube to see just how common hatred and nationalism is. Go see how many people can do no better than to make emotional and illogical arguments, regardless of nationality or affiliation. Disagree with this girl or this story all you want and fight against the idiocy it represents. Just don’t pretend like you or your “kind” are uniformly better.
Some of you don’t fight idiocy where idiocy rears itself, you only fight idiocy when it comes from a Chinese person, as if idiocy was a rule amongst the Chinese whereas idiocy is the exception amongst your own. It isn’t.
Dude, ALL YOUTUBE COMMENTS ARE TRASH, that’s right, even my own – people on Youtube say the wierdest, most stupid stuff on the internet – Chinese and Westerners both.
Touche’ to that Ursilly- pun intended. “With great power comes great responsibility.” As China becomes a world power, they are going to need to learn to take some criticism and quit this racist banter. According to the author, China’s new generation is not bias and has grown up in a free country. However, the advice of another post points to her geography class in which the teacher told them not to “pay attention to an arrogant country like France.”
Wake up “new Chinese generation”! You have grown up in a society in which your government and teachers have manipulated your world views and every lesson you have ever had. That statement above is perfect evidence of this. I live in China. I have taught in classrooms before that did not even have a map of the world and when I brought one in for them to view they could not even point to Europe. It was like children from “The King and I” saying that the world was Siam.
The western world has stolen historical artifacts from China in the past, which are now displayed in foreign museums. Had they not been taken, they would have been destroyed by their own countrymen during the “Great” Cultural Revolution or rural Chinese who thought that they needed to poke the eyes out of statues and murals otherwise the statues and paintings would awake as demons in the night. Maybe when this culture matures a little you can have them back. Until then, the western world respects Chinese history and culture more than their own people.
Have you considered the possibility that some of the young Chinese generation are more open minded than others? That some have had better educations than others?
Jeebus, how do so many of you get off on attacking this girl for generalizations while liberally using them yourselves? Are you guys THAT lacking in self-awareness?
I’m not defending generalizations or stereotyping but I have a question. How long does one need to spend in China before one can form an informed opinion on Chinese behavior? How many Chinese people does one have to meet to understand what a lot of them think?
I have been in China for many years and I have NEVER EVER met a Chinese person that didn’t blindly defend China without even considering if China was right or wrong in any given situation. I think maybe you should consider that it’s not just this girl they are complaining about, it’s the thousands of experiences just like it that came before. What gets me is the fact that according to the Chinese posts above they don’t seem to care if this girl was right, lying or even if it’s real, but they are willing to throw their un-relenting support behind her simply because she is Chinese. Maybe you should consider that the majority of Chinese people have never left China and know nothing more than what the Chinese government allows them to know, yet they generalize pretty much all foreigners. However the people posting here are invariably people who live in China and do know what happens here. This means [in my opinion] that they are more qualified to make generalizations than most Chinese people. But again that’s just my opinion.
Tommy,
i am mainland Chinese, i do not defend for fucking communist stupid government. i appreciate a lot criticisms from those who are really care about china. but if it comes to towards Chinese people i will 100% defend for them. whatever brainwashed or being unreasonable mad they are the victims for the government, most people in their whole life didn’t have any chances to live outside communist society. the government easily push the nationalism ideas to them, control people …… pro-Japanese, free Tibet…it is much more harder for a mainland Chinese person to become open mind…well there are some good examples there, in the future i believe we will see more.
the young generation get much more freedom than before, they can travel around the world, think wisely for the human natural, think more about themselves…
Agreed, I like the idea that as the country’s power grows so does the confidence and the ability to shrug off silly shit like this. I think maybe the mix of ignorance and arrogance is what causes the fury.
I was once asked if I like Chinese food, of course I said yes. Then I was asked if I like rice, I stupidly said that I find plain boiled rice a little boring and the entire room erupted with disgust. In other countries we eat plain boiled carrots but I certainly wouldn’t take it as a national insult if someone said it’s boring. So with all the understanding in the world these situations are still frustrating.
While there’s a correlation between one’s length of experience in China and how “informed” their opinion is, it NEVER means someone’s opinion is more valid just because they’ve been in China or have been in China longer. The validity of any opinion/perspective should be judged by its merits and against the merits of opposing or contradictory opinions/perspectives. A guy who has lived in China’s backwater all his life may know a lot more about peasant life than some university student in the States, but that university student may know a lot more about China’s political history than that one guy.
The problem with informed opinions (or “generalizations” as you’re really implying) is not the generalization itself but with how that generalization is used to justify an offensive position/statement. Consider:
“A lot of Chinese are nationalistic” is different from “A lot of Chinese are nationalistic so they must be brainwashed.”
The former is a generalization, probably an “informed” opinion that comes from one’s personal experiences. The latter is using that generalization to justify another statement that is not necessarily or sufficiently supported by that generalization. Yet, on the face of it, many people accept the latter due to their own pre-conceived notions or biases.
I’m fully aware that many of these people are not complaining about this girl, but by extension using her as a representation of all the other Chinese they feel are hyper-nationalistic and “brainwashed.” It still doesn’t excuse them making the same mistakes they accuse the Chinese of, right?
I’m also quite cerain many of these people have met plenty of Chinese who AREN’T brainwashed or nationalistic. Simply having visited this website makes that statement true. Simply having read so many translated comments of Chinese netizens NOT defending but rather criticizing their own government, country, or people should make that statement true. Yet, too often, these examples, these Chinese do not fit the conception of China and the Chinese they prefer to have in their hearts, sometimes out of a need to feel superior. So these very valid examples that run contrary to their preconceived notions are conveniently discarded. Only by doing so can they make such absolutist, oversimplified, or insensitive comments.
In real life, few of them would unless surrounded by people they know to be like-minded, because they don’t enjoy the same anonymity and freedom from accountability they do online behind a keyboard.
That’s rather tragic and you could just be THAT unlucky, but I know many people who have. As I said above, I wonder why you don’t take into account the veritable translated Chinese comments you see on this website?
Also, consider how you’re approaching these issues with the Chinese. How you approach a topic can influence how the other person will respond. You’re going to have better luck getting a Chinese person’s honest opinion and criticisms about their government/country if you just asked them “How do you feel about China’s progress?” instead of “Why aren’t you upset about how the government denies you democracy and human rights?!?”
I’m not saying you’re of the latter because I don’t know how you interact with the Chinese you say you have. But as a general rule of thumb, this is something everyone should ask themselves. How am I communicating? Am I communicating in a way that puts the Chinese on the defensive? Is that why I have NEVER EVER met a Chinese person who doesn’t blindly defend or doesn’t consider if China is right or wrong? Think about it.
In my personal experience in Shanghai and elsewhere of China, I’ve seen a lot of foreigners ask loaded, biased, leading questions that instantly make the Chinese listener feel like the foreigner is being a self-righteous condescending prick.
And what gets me are so many indignant Westerners categorically ignoring all of the Chinese replies who DO care if the girl was right, lying, or even real and who did NOT throw their un-relenting support beause she is Chinese.
A generalization must be judged by its merits. I will never accept a generalization, especially one used to advance an offensive position, just because that person says he is qualified to do so because he’s been in China. Sloppy is sloppy. Accurate is accurate. Wrong is wrong. Right is right.
What do you think?
to kei, just a silly suggestion, i want to ready what you wrote but it is really too long….my dear too long…
to Tommy,
i knew these situations are frustrating, but china only reform in 30 years. 30 years it wasn’t so long for a country. china was exactly the same like North Korean. the culture revolution broke the whole generation, this hurt very deeply. she need much more time to cure.
for individual person as one power try your best to help people around you ,it is only what can you do
You need to meet more Chinese people Tommy. I have had conversations with a lot of different Chinese people since I’ve been here, and I’ve heard a lot of criticisms of the country.
I think what Kai wrote on his March 11, 2009 at 4:38 pm is dead on. It depends how you are coming into the conversation. Are you being obnoxious or even a little rude right from the start? Maybe that makes them go on the defensive. Maybe they have a hard time accepting criticism from someone who doesn’t live in the country, especially harsh pompous criticism. I’m not saying you’ve been like that, I don’t know you. But I have heard a lot of Westerners speak about China and Chinese people in general with a real pompous air of superiority; if I was Chinese and got spoken to like that, damn straight I would start defending my country.
to guo ji ren
most of you can see how the Chinese government educate the people. as Chinese to develop his own world view, it needs much more time and much more difficult than developed countries.
you guys need show more understandable as well.
think about back what happens in North Korean now, the way government to educate the people is 10 times worse. i feel really sorry for the people there.
in china at least there is changing.
One thing, what is the ‘when did 5 Mao start writing novels?’ comment in reference to?
5 mao dang refers to alleged trolls payed 5 mao (0.5 RMB) per comment by the government to counter attacks against the autorities on the web and help to control the netizens’ opinions.
Always ironic that people say “we have 5000 years history” one minute, then “give us a chance” the next! The West’s problem is that it always gives these people a chance and lets them get away with so many things in our countries, that would be completely impossible in their own.
Do you seriously think that is this fake episode had taken place between a Frenchman and any other country’s citizen, it would even receive a reply if posted on a forum somewhere?
The whole thing is about those bronze heads that were saved from the cultural revolution. China didn’t get them back and lost face, the story is them trying to retain mianzi WITH EACH OTHER, but turned out to be more of a trip to the guillotine!
These are posted all the time on bbs. Chinasmack just posted one, hardly new except maybe for you? In regards to the bronze heads, besides your bizzare rant what evidence do you have it’s even remotely related to the OP?
both countries are shit, what happends when you combine the 2? fight with shit!
so never fight for your country, fight for your people
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-03/09/content_7553590.htm
kai: ‘you take one post by one Chinese girl (whom none of us are sure is real or not)’
oh come on. after everything that has been written above, you can’t still doubt that this is not real? if i was askd to write a transcript of an encounter that nobody would ever believe ever happened, it would look exactly like this story. fenqing porn is about right.
yes indeed, you are talking to a wall. but it is a conversation of your own choosing.
You appear to be the wall I’m having a conversation with, and you’re doing a poor job of following the conversation.
I myself am skeptical of whether this story is true or not. I grant that many here have already concluded it to be fake. I take issue with a number of things here, one of which are the willfully ignorant reasons people have concluded this story is “obviously” fake, such as pins, trilingualism, racial infalliablity, etc.
Even if the story is indeed fake, it doesn’t mean I cannot be critical of the idiotic reasons people use to claim it to be fake. You can say God does not exist because your puppy died. Even if God really doesn’t exist, I can still say you concluding that God doesn’t exist BECAUSE your puppy died is retarded logic.
You’re right with the puppy death analogy, however, this isn’t the case, because you are clearly not thinking logically in your combative stance against anyone who claims this is fake. Ask a flight attendant in person, then stop posting yer nonsense, I have..I really don’t believe you have.
Rick, I’m only combative towards those who are combative towards me. It isn’t as if tommydickfingers politely said something to me and I snapped at him.
I believe I am thinking very logically about this story and in opposition to those who claim this is fake. I’m sure you think your conclusion that this is fake was a logical judgement as well. That’s what a debate is, two sides trying to use logic to prove their side or disprove the other side. You tried to prove this story is obviously “nonsense.” I disagreed with your proofs and tried to prove how your proofs are flawed and not so airtight or obvious as you presented them to be. You’re defending your proofs. I’m defending my refutations.
You’ve talked to one flight attendant who says they do not wear pins. I’ve shown you dozens of pictures of flight attendants wearing pins and further explained how to find more pictures. I think my dozens of pictures of flight attendants wearing pins and flag pins outweighs the testimony of your one flight attendant. What do you think?
I’ll offer you more:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3429364/
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-19554734.html
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) _ For years, United Airlines flight attendant Anne Miller wore a small American flag pin on her uniform as a sign of her patriotism.
Now a new San Francisco supervisor, a retired Air Force office, has told her the pin has to go because it violates the airline’s dress code.
Ms. Miller, who has flown with troops on special tours to Vietnam and the Persian Gulf, has contacted her union to protest. She also has started handing out American flag pins to fellow flight attendants.
Referring to the same AP story as above, from:
http://www.nancypolette.com/LitGuidesText/nothingbutthetruth.htm
Everything I have searched on the internet reaffirms the fact that different airlines have different standards and regulations, that rules are enforced to varying degrees, that pins are often allowed, and that airlines often have flight attendants who can speak a foreign language wear a flag pin of the country that language originates from. Why I am emphasizing documents and photographs on the internet? Because they are accessible to you. I do not think a he-said she-said personal anecdote is strong enough evidence to resolve our disagreement. You can continue saying your flight attendant friend says this or that, and I will continue to show you objective documents on the internet that is freely accesible to both you, I, and others to prove MY side.
Rick, what say you?
hey, what is fengqing porn? Im out of date
Yes… you are out of date!
Cute name chimatron!! Now do you care to explain what fengwqin porn is? Or are you going just sit there covered in peanut butter and a Chinese flag masturbating while you try to defile my name :)
not to hate, not to anger, love your counry, and be sympathetic to the ignorant people…
The story is made up. “Inhuman behaviour” because the frog didn’t want to close his shade. “They all have smelly breath”. Someone claiming to be Chinese but doesn’t sound as if shes ever been to China, have you talked to Chinese people up close? It can be an absolute nightmare. And ofcourse the classic: “You don’t have the right to say anything about China coz you are a foreigner” bull. I don’t like French people much but Jesus,, get a life. The guy (if this ever took place) tried to charm the stewardess a bit and got a cold shoulder,, then he tried to talk to you and he got another one. Do you really expect him to kiss your feet after that for the rest of the flight? If I had paid 7000 kuai for the plane ticket and I wanted to have a drink then I’d be damned if I’d let some pretentious chick tell me what to do.
Kai after reading your ‘debates’ you come off as one pompous, self righteous, dogmatic piece of work. The only person you really agree with or had some sort of understanding is with yourself. At first, it seems like your quite the articulate writer but the ’scripts’ that you write only implies to others of ‘your wrong and I am right’. This doesn’t produce any healthy debates (not to mention burning a lot of bridges) and inclines many to not want to have any verbal exchanges with you. Also, your posts are far too long get to the point and short and sweet.
That’s all.
Fangyao – After reading your posts I can clearly say that you actually do care about the country and produce some very balanced views and reasoning. That said, it is true that the majority of the people are not to be blamed as they are molded by the environ. Like I always say, economically China has leapfrogged these past decades but leapfrogging the minds of society is not so simple.
that’s right, so as the developing country china must pass this leapfrog phase, when people have the food and cloth, the basic needs. other desire will start to develop.
look at the rich mainland Chinese people what they did is exactly what the rich Hongkongnese did 30 years ago.
now some of the rich hongkongnese start to care about more art, the way of the life…not just property, expensive clothes…
there are the different phases of the human developing,china is still young.
Truth Hertz
I think you need to spend more time actually reading this thread. I (sadly, as it’s making my actual work suffer) have, and everything Kai has been saying and writing (verbose though it is) is true. If it seems like he’s being dogmatic, it’s only because time and time again someone else pops on here saying the same damn thing.
Read the comment he wrote at March 11, 2009 at 4:38 pm, it pretty much sums it all up.
I’m not saying I agree with him 100% of the time, and I agree he can come off a BIT pompous, but nearly as pompous as some other people that have posted on here. Give him a break man.
for sure i like kei as well
at least he is one of a few chinese can write and express what he own think here…..
but the other hand the articles is really too long, often i dont understand and miss a lot of points. for the way to express i will prefer read some short and refine.
Thanks, Teacher in China, I appreciate the support.
Turth Hurtz, people calling me pompous is nothing new to me. They’re usually the people who refuse to debate with me on the actual issues and arguments at hand and have resorted to calling me names because they’re upset that someone like me has the audacity to take them to task and hold them to what they say.
I’m not sure what makes me dogmatic in this thread. As I recall, the majority of people (such as Rick in China) were jumping the gun to declare with absolute certainty that this story was completely fake and “nonsense.”
I simply said, “well, wait a minute, the things you’re citing as ‘proving’ that this story is fake are not really that convincing.” I explain why their “evidence” is insufficient to declare this story fake, despite the fact that I had my doubts as well. Yet you’re saying I’m dogmatic just because I disagree with you? Just because I have the fortitude to question what other people declare as truth? Just because I dare to stand up for what I know, what I think, and defend my position?
To me, the people being dogmatic are those who insist this story is fake, offer shoddy evidence or proofs for why, and even after the original writer is offered up by USTCer, refuse to go confront her and accuse her of lying.
Healthy debates revolve around having the maturity to argue the points and issues, not by resorting to calling your opposition names. Rick and I may call each other names, but at least we’re offering something more substantive than just “oh, you’re pompous.” He’s asked his friend. I’ve offered research. You? You’re trying hurt my feelings.
My feelings aren’t that easily hurt. You don’t have to have verbal exchanges with me, but that doesn’t make me wrong or you right. It just means you’re not willing to bother. That’s your perogative. If an issue is complex, I try to account for its complexity. I don’t do short and sweet when it is inaccurate or does the complex issue not justice.
There’s a reason most academic books about all manner of subjects are long: things aren’t usually so simple. You may PREFER them to be, but that doesn’t mean they are. I prefer to be honest and give as much thought to a complex matter as it deserves. I’m sorry you need to hate me for doing so.
Maybe she should have a more open mind like I do and not be so narrow-minded
Fangyao – I agree with you there and the phases along with the desires is both universal and inevitable. Indeed, China is both young and old, old in culture but young as a system (a new system not even past a centennial). A young system that should be open to and takes advice from the more mature systems instead of denouncing most of them. It’s true that some may come across as harsh or non-pleasant to the ear but if looked at it without having a chip on the shoulder many advices actually do make some damn sense.
yes so there comes the problems. old in culture, after culture revolution, mainland china actually dont have so many old culture left( that’s why often oversea Chinese keep more traditional than mainland). young in system, well for the communist government they dont think create a totally new system here, they are combining….
well three are the facts happening, no one can change easly. in the future china has a lot of unpredicted. hopeful we do not repeat history….
Hi Fauna,
It just happens to me that your story does not seem to be very reliable. I feel that your language, in the first place, is too emotive and affected by your emotion.
Could it have been that you have interpreted the French guy’s every words too sensitively, or the air hostess (with the flag thing)? I agree that you must have been outraged if the French guy next to you really said something as pompous and racist as that. It might be because I have had little experience of racial prejudices that made me found this story unbelievable, but dear Fauna, it seems to me those arguments were a little bit well prepared to have been argued at that moment. It was more like reading a novel, than a real-life conversation? That’s a compliment to your well-written story, of course.
Just a comment, not meant to offend your reliability. Still, I would like to confirm that this story of yours is true and told as accurately as possible?
Dear Sophie,
It’s not Fauna’s story… Fauna just provides us with translations in English of Chinese essays on the web.
A great idea and a great job, thanks again Fauna !
hi petit bonheur
So you are fluent in french then? Is this story true to the best of your knowledge?
Sophie, look for USTCer’s comment above. Fauna probably found this story on Mop or China.com and just translated it. She may not have known where the original story came from. USTCer apparently found the original source, the blog of a Chinese mother living in America. He provided the link, so if you want to question whether this story is true or not, you should probably go to her blog and ask her directly. I don’t think petit bonheur can help you since he did not write it nor was the original story written in French.
Hi Sophie,
Like most of the readers (and fan of China Smack) I can’t answer to your question. My guess is that story is mainly fake. Maybe based on a real experience of an argue with a Frenchman, but there are many aspect of the story that are not credible, but who knows? interesting aspect is the discussion on th orginal post on the blog of this lady : she and her blogfriends express a profond and frightening hatred of thee “west” and especially France and seems to mix up patriotism and xenophobia… A kind of Chinese Bushism…
it’s just so easy to say they are like this and they are like and all of them are the same, but if this were true then everybody is like you and me…
R-E-S-P-E-C-T each other doesn’t matter where you coming from…
Why I don’t think this story is true?
As regular visitor of chinaSmack I found that many posted stories are fake. Invented. Even the very first story I ever read here was about stolen identity.
The highlight for me was “Coal mine owner daughter” and story about incident with japanese students. That incident were true, but, each update of story brought more and more details, some very fantastic. Post were like: “Dear brothers, it wasn’t like it was said, Japanese was much worse than…”.
So this story is like that. Maybe there is a some truth here, but this is “I kick their asses, and they were rude to me” story. And poster was all nice with blinking eye lashes. Frenchmen had a bad mouth breath.
People that never met Chinese hate them ’cause they smell. People that never met people with black skin hate them ’cause they smell! Even former good friend of mine (a skinhead) hated them for that reason, although she never met any of them!
There’s that episode with Victor Hugo. She show’em that she have broad education, and they don’t know anything about their history.
But, I could beleive in this part:
At the time, had there been a gun in my hands, I think I would have immediately shot them all! Ignorant arrogant French guys. But she could feel hate in their eyes.
This story is written to induct contemplation from “brothers and sisters”, in time when Frenchmen did some despicable things, which makes objectivity of story very shaky.
There’s a joke in Serbia that goes like this:
In some bar, guy from Montenegro tells a story about fight he had week earlier.
“And, what happened on the end?”, people asked him.
“Police took him like worst scumbag in police car, and I was taken by ambulance staff by hands – like Tzar!”
Story may be true, but truthfulness is questionable.
I just read that and i have no freaking clue what the hell you are talking about. Take an English course Chijrosorus, stop posing as an eastern european, they are white and hate you too.
FKDLR
I’m not East European. I’m South East European. A nice way to say “from Balkan”.
I just read that and i have no freaking clue what the hell you are talking about.
You are yet to attain enlightenment ;) Let’s make it shorter: There’s a pattern in some stories posted here that makes me believe this story is fake.
WTF is “Chijrosorus”?
haha Chijrosorus (pin ying “qi ai jiu suo ra zi”)
is an ancient mythical dinosaur like creature that currently abides in northern China. They are categorized by over sized craniums (with unwashed hair), speaking loundly and smoking constantly. Frequently the Chijrosorus will eject mucus from its mouth in order to ward off other animals.
Their walking style is typically categorized by hands folded behind their backs walking slowing, looking pensive, but really not having a thought in their mind.
The Chijrosorus is an ardent nationalist who’s deepest connviction is sprouted from his/her days denouncing their families during the cultural revolution. Little education and a lot of body oder is a good indication that you have met a Chijrosorus
See also
Chi Mate
Chi Matron
Chino
This site is both entertaining and time-wasting. I have been reading people’s comments for like an hour now. I have been back at this website for like three times. Is ChinaSMACK a site for english speakers, is it a blog site where people deliberately choose EXTREMELY sensitive and comtemporary issues in China. Fantastic and juicy – this is what we call ‘cultural’ gossip; we have moved away from those celebrities gossip. This century is not about dictators or government censoring the world, it’s about the world and all the people who have computers and money to pay for the internet censoring whatever new that they can get to write up their own point of view.
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A STORY WRITTEN IN THIS SITE – WITH MORE OBJECTIVITY. I don’t mind if literally, the author writes several interpretations to a single action by Wen-Jin-Tao.
And everyone who sounds so politically and culturally educated, must you swear? It’s terribly annoying to see people calling each other dickheads. Surely our english profiency are better than that – rather – more controlled.
Surely our english profiency are better than that – rather – more controlled.
i always say that people should check their own grammar before they criticise other people!
As a third party to this nationalist conflict (I’m an American who has traveled to both France and China), I’d like to add two additional facts here:
1) The poster wrote, “This is the self-proclaimed friendliness, generosity, pursuit of romance and freedom of the French people?”
I’m not sure what the reputation of French people is in China, but in the US, the French are broadly viewed as rude and not particularly generous. I have found that French people like to appear serious, and love to debate everything, and this comes across to non-French people as rudeness.
The reaction of this French person and these French people sounds perfectly consistent with experiences I have had — it doesn’t sound like they had anything against China. They would have said the same sorts of thing to an American.
2) Something that Westerners, including myself, find odd about modern Chinese people is that whenever you criticize the Chinese government, Chinese people get offended. When Westerners criticize the government, or the Chinese Communist Party, they usually believe themselves to be defending the Chinese people against their oppressor. So it’s a bit of a shock when people defend a government they did not elect.
I guess Westerners, with our multi-party democracies, are used to argument and criticism about governments, and don’t take anything personally when they’re criticized.
Anyway, that’s my two additions to this conversation.
Mike
Right Mike,
French people are judgenmental, which is very irritating – but romantic of course not !
I’m American also and I agree with Mike 100%.
Of course there is no way to really know, but I don’t even know English people who have conversations worded the way this story is written. It just sounds fake. All French people have “mouth odor?” And all black people have smaller brains too right? I think the young lady’s opinion of “Westerners” is hilariously simple, but she can think whatever she wants. Take it with a grain of salt. I’d be more entertained if she had a post called “whitey sucks” with concrete examples of all the stupid things we really do (and there’s plenty), instead of this rather boring contrivance.
I think all this nationalist jingoism is rather backwards, but so is the inability of some people to take criticism in any way shape or form. That’s the true sign of maturity. In any case, it wasn’t so long ago that China was totally impoverished country recovering from the insanity and death of the cultural revolution, these people are still reeling from the speed of change, its a lot of adjustment.
Let’s give China another 30 years. If they stop putting their protesters in black prisons, torturing Tibetan nuns with electric shocks on their genitals, and don’t do something catastrophic – like emulate aggressive US foreign policy and decimating entire countries (thanks US!) then there’s the prospect that China’s influence on the world could actually be positive. For that to happen though, people will have to act globally and think as world citizens instead of regressing into nationalistic camps and spewing a bunch of insulting garbage at each others’ countries. Forget countries, there’s good people and shit people everywhere!
That’s so much bullshit from the two parties, chinese and french.. If you were really smart, you would simply avoid this kind of useless dicussion.. Seriously, girl, how can you judge 60 million french people like this, this is really funny.. If you can afford 12 LV bags, buy a first class ticket next time and for sure you won’t have people around you if you cannot stand it.
too many comments to read through, I understand your compassion for debating but there is a life outside your room.
on a side note, there is no such thing as “open minded” or “narrow minded”, liberal isn’t necessarily opened minded, nor does conservative mean narrow minded.
the correct way to put these types is using “well-informed” or “poorly-informed” or even “uninformed”.
and the truth is always somewhere in between, seeing is believing, and you will never, ever know the truth unless it happens right in front of you.
I support chinese girl. If more young chinese are like her, there will be hope for china.
I agree with Ameican Mike…see
Mike Elgan says:
Friday, March 13, 2009 at 4:59 am
He is very observant. French people are like that so I guess it is best to not to take it person, and yes there is difference between how Westerners see their gov’ts and how many Chinese view the Chinese gov’t. You can find that in the polls. Most westerners disapprove of their gov’ts, and an overwhelming majority of the the chinese public (like 80%) approve and support the the Chinese gov’t and think that it is doing a good job so far.
5 mao, cha ching
Don’t spend it all in one shop…
Who the hell are the chinese to say anyone sticks or have bad breath? The chinese are renowned for having bad teeth (poor oral hygeine) and for smelling, have u ever had to sit in a train full of nongming the smell of garlic is enough to kill you! And to the Chinese blogger who said France has been defeated twice and still has learnt a lesson look at you own history China has had its ass kicked from so many different foriegn countries throughout the ages (look at Mongolia and the Manchu’s let alone Japan and the western powers) yet somehow u still think your the middle Kingdom! Plus the chinese are horrible incosiderate travellors if youve ever had to endure even a short bus ride in China u already know that.
Chinese people definetly have the WORST BREATH in the world…and I’m speaking in general terms.
Sure, some Chinese people are clean and some Americans are dirty but IN GENERAL Chinese people have NO SENSE of HYGEINE….and then they wonder why people don’t respect them.
Maybe you should meet some real people. Fail.
** THE POST TO END ALL POSTS – THE FINAL WORD ****
Ok little grasshoppers, sit down and listen to my beads of wisdom. I guarantee it will offend all who read my vile yet true words.
1. Yes most Chinese will defend the country and government. They’re not brainwashed. But the commie party is all we have to hold the country together. By most metrics they’ve done a great job. Tibetans will eventually get greater rights, protests will eventually be allowed and hell Falungong will be allowed. Timeframe? When GDP per capita hits around US$20k, and most of the population is too engrossed in the rat race and commercialism to give a shit about overthrowing the government. Minorities will be treated well much in the way you’d treat poor people well….pity. If you need proof, just look at the timeline with American Indians and Aboriginals in Australia. Same shit, different place. The pale faces absolutely massacred them. Stolen generation anybody? You reckon governments in the West would be so altruistic if they are running 300% budget deficits, employment is over 15% and they have a GDP per capita of $5000? Dream on mate. When you are rich you do philanthropy and throw pennies to the street urchins to buy yourself a “halo”. Shit forget countries mate. My neighbour is the worlds’ biggest cunt, got rich and is now wanting to put his name on hospital wings. You reckon when he was starting out he’d buy poor Billy a wheelchair. Dream on. The true philanthropist is one who gives a large percentage of his wealth..not a large figure. Western countries generally give up to 3% of GDP to aid. If I earnt $1000 a week and gave away $30 am I a good guy? Oh, and don’t forget my $30 comes with conditions.
2. Its not fair to stereotype an entire race by the actions of a few. But there is a thing called percentages. If only there was a census created that polled everyone’s behavior in a country! Then when you say that 78% of French are mostly arrogant you’d be stats to back it up! As it stands…both Chinese & French people are arrogant…generally. There are plenty of other people in the East & West that hate em both.
3. Yes a lot of older Chinese particularly from country areas have poor hygiene. I guess if you grew up in poverty you don’t give a shit if you don’t brush your teeth or spit. They’ll die eventually so that’ll be forgotten. A lot of “Westerners” still stink today even though they are relatively affluent though. Lazy and bad habits are universal. It all comes back to which side of the tracks you are from. Even in Western countries, there will be the poorer suburbs. If you come from there and head to the wealthy suburbs people look down on your manners, your accent, you poor sense of dress, your beatup car. Get rich however you can, learn the etiquette and you’ll fit right in. Is this the best direction for the human race? No, but its reality.
4. Why is that people (Westerners) keep harping on about democracy? India’s the world’s biggest democracy and its rooted. Infrastructure is a joke, pork barrel projects everywhere, no consensus and no direction, save for the outstanding individual entrepreneurs. A benevolent dictatorship is better than Lord of the Flys mate. It all comes back to governance KPI’s.
5. Democracy is a falsehood. Your ass is owned by the Tax Department, banks, employer and spouse. In that order. Either accept it or go join the elite. Whoever is in power is just a figurehead. They’ll be some slightly different policies, but all it is a pendulum. Swings to the right, swings to the left. I do that with my balls as I’m pissing, but the aim is to piss it all out. Joe Public is the urinal and the pisser is the financial and business elite. The average working person in a first word country will earn nearly US$2 million in their lifetime. Most will have none of it left at the end. Sad but true.
6. We don’t need a democracy. We need small government. Efficient governance. Fair taxation framework. Fair judiciary. Social safety net. Law and order. And a society that values education over shrewdness, a hard days work over a quick flutter on the stockmarket, a sense of community over looking out for me, myself and I.
This can be achieved under both a democracy or a monocracy (hey! new word. Before you grab out your soap boxes and decry that its autocracy, remember, I’m doing what any modern liberal person does – spinning it baby!). I believe this is what the Commie party is aiming towards and good for them. We need a dose of no-bs can-do in our modern day politics.
Democracy is an idea to reach this, but these are simply performance Key Performance Indiciators (KPIs) that need to be reached irregardless of which form of government is in power. I’ve seen a few posts extolling things like freedom and shit. I agree, grand ideals forged in times of difficulty, but so corrupted and raped these days, clutching it is sad. Remember: fuck the form of government. Measure by KPIs. Classic example Singapore. Pretty autocractic government, but modern, wealthy, efficient = no negative press.
7. Cash is king mate. At the moment, Western people can lecture because they hold the cash. When you are wealthy you can buy nice clothes and other shit. Gives you a halo. When you are poor, fleas are your best friend. Wait it out. The capitalists in the Western countries will be their own undoing. Eventually all will be mortgaged off and they’ll start to look pretty shithouse. Want to see a white person who doesn’t look superior? Just check out some parts of Russia. Sad whats happening to the average Joe over there.
Money makes everyone look good. With wealth comes terribly frivilous decisions such as Cabernet or Pinot. Pate or truffles. French fries or freedom fries.
8. This is a really important point. It is irrefutable that many European countries engaged in plunder, theft, murder and more in the past. On the basis of compound interest, therefore nearly all wealth and current assets and institutions in these countries are the proceeds of crime. Before you go, we French invented perfume and fashion which brings in billions of dolalrs or we British invented the steam engine, I remind you all of this. Many “bright sparks” became revolutions due to the commercial and business friendly nature framework of these countries. However, those institutions and infrastructure were paid for with blood and loot so therefore are illegitimate. It is like a really business savvy drug dealer who goes on to build a huge legitimate empire based on the proceeds of crime? RICO Act? Anyone who has played a strategy game (e.g. Civilisation) will remember that if you cheat early in the game you will be so far ahead of the competition you are set for the rest of the millenium. Similar thing. Compounding theory ladies and gents. Wealth begets wealth. It doesn’t take much to fall behind. I remember in the good old days of playing Civilisation it was just too tempting to do a bit of cheating to resuscitate my losing fortunes. Once you are wealthy to a point, there’s no looking back and you can afford to hand out crumbs to the savages.
Therefore to cleanse yourselves of sin and to regain the moral authority to lecture others on human rights and fairness, I urge you to absolve yourself of all your worldly goods and deposit the proceeds in my Swiss bank account. Then you will achieve true enlightenment my little euro Buddhas.
Of course I doubt this will happen. So what is a Western person to do master you ask? Very simple. Shut up and just enjoy what has been accumulated.
9. When will people just realise that our enemy is not Joe Blow from China, India, USA, UK. Our common enemy are greedy politician and predatory corporations who get rich off the public.
10. Finally a glossary:
Democracy: Multiple parties debating all day to make it seem like they are doing work. Cozy pensions bankrolled by the public. Looks good on the CV.
Human Rights: I can’t be bothered to torture you. It’s easier to sue and bankrupt you.
Freedom of Speech: Can’t be bothered to throw you in jail, making too much money. Too many shows coming up this season, so most people won’t even be listening to you anyway. Say too much and I introduce you to my friend Libel and his cousin Bankruptcy.
LoL, seriously, that was brilliant! Awesome comment. I wish I could +1 more than once.
Excellent analysis. +1 from me.
Attaboy, nice one!
Good words +1
I agree with a lot of what you say; Common-sensical things that get swept away under that thick rug of Western ideology.
But I’m afraid I must take you up on one point. I have been to many ‘developing’ countries, but have never seen a lack of humanity like that of China.
I think that’s why this website gets such strong comments.
Asis, you made a valid point which I cannot refute. There are so many Chinese nowadays who do not give a shit about other people.
This is attributed to an issue of supply & demand. Allow me to explain bluntly. There are so many fucking Chinese who all look like they came from a standard “mould” on a production line that the loss of one million wouldn’t make any difference. Secondly we are a very homogenous race so after a while we lose our uniqueness. Secondly because they all have to compete for jobs (and therefore “food”), a certain sense of detachment sets in. Thirdly, the mass sacrifice of Chinese have occurred many times in history, therefore the taboo does not exist.
I can just hear it…all the Western readers going…fuck he just said what we’ve always thought but were afraid of being too “racist” to say.
I have been to China myself and found myself in that situation though I am Chinese. I have to shake myself inside and remind myself that when I think like that I’m no better than those scumbag colonial criminal cunts.
Where the “Western” countries have gotten ahead is quite simply Christianity. Don’t get me wrong, Confuscius and Buddha espoused similar virtues. Confuscius in particular would be more relevant for Chinese. However communism did kill off a great deal of spirituality in China.
Think of communism as an extreme medicine that was needed at the time to kill an even worse cancer. And before any of you go, well if the Nationalists were in power you would be better off. Lets get one thing straight. The Nationalists would have sold out this country piece by piece. I’d rather live in poverty than as a lackey of a colonial power.
We have a unique opportunity to guide the ship in the right direction. The current generation of youth is still soft which is better than hard and arrogant. What we need now are strong role models who are strong, yet educated. Confident yet reasonable. Ambitious yet with a sense of community. This can only come from the very top. All this can be achieved within 5 years in a very simple, yet daring move….
You need to strike right to the heart of corruption in China. That means a co-ordinated, no holds barred all hell break loose strike all the way down to the very grassroot level of government and purge every single graft taking, belligerent, uneducated, nepotistic offical cunt in every far flung corner of the country. You think all those provinces where the local government takes advantage of the poor have been punished. No, because the offenders would have been sat down by middle management who they go way back with and told over dinner very diplomatically to go easy.
That soft shit is actually what breeds China’s lack of humanity. All we hear are about corrupt officials, there is no motivation to stay honest and noble. You need a federal taskforce that comes in, locates their children abroad, freezes assets and locks them up. They need to be named and shamed. The whole process pays for itself. We have a huge laborforce in China that can be deployed. Secondly, the loot from these officials will pay for all the investigations.
Ironically, China’s top level bureaucrats are very clean. The best thing they can do for their fellow man, their children and their country’s future is to cast aside loyalty, “face” and fuck up every single one of these fuckers, seize their assets and distribute it to the poor and underprivilged. Couple that with an equal playing field for entrepreneurs and after the shitstorm disipates, the average Chinese person will have more confidence in the system, more confidence in investing, in wanting their children to be educated in China instead of abroad and more importantly more humanity.
Lead by example. It is ironic, our extreme sense of humanity to bad friends indirectly feeds our inhumanity to the great suffering of strangers that occurs.
Brilliant! The best thing ever written on Chinasmack… other than my satire “Mean French People on a Plane”. It really could be the final word.
Can’t argue with that.
i agree,my chinese friends say china is the best,they are 60%smarter than other people,thats not true
and some chinese guy invented a triangle saying chinese are scared of backs,blacks scared of whites,and whites scared of chinese
its not true to me and thats just plain racist
i have a white,chinese and black friend who are obviously not scared fo each other
but still,there are many chinese who are nice too
and the chinese government,why do they always ban stuff?even youtubes banned
Relax young lady. So French people are rude…surprise, surprise….where did you go to school? Naive High?
And easy on the talk about shooting them…do you want to get arrested?
French-Chinese– do not exsist.
In france you are french for ever when you got french citizen. So is in Germany and most other European Nations. You can have double citizen but that does not work for China.
If you need proof, just look at the timeline with American Indians and Aboriginals in Australia———
no need..Americans and Aboriginals do exsts. but where are Dzungars? no knowledge about them you loser?
Woah nelly relax. What is this…obscure extinct tribe trivia hour? Have you heard of the Orzacs? Where are Druguns of Macedonia? Or the Whocares?
Clearly you haven’t read my post in its entirety because you are focusing on a minor comment and missing the bigger picture.
My point is that any criticism of China’s human rights’ record will be whitewashed in time as the country becomes wealthier and rewrites history. Just like all the other European countries. So eventually minorities won’t be tortured, just looked down on and discriminated against :). I’m not defending the Chinese government policies, but I don’t think any major country has the right to lecture others when their own history is so evil as well.
There are a few tribes within the “Aboriginals” that were annihiliated by the way. Dzungars were 18th century mate…you’re not a descendant of a Dzungar are you? Tibetans are still around dude. Don’t think their society was so rosy prior to the Chinese.
Hmmm…this story sounds a bit contrived…like, a little too much to be believable, you know?
Exactly what I was thinking. The sort of rubbish put together by extremists who bring together the mass protests we saw outside French organisations in China in 2008.
hm…well, we shouldn’t worry about what other ppl think. For most people, race really doesn’t matter. Ive had ppl come up to me and ask if im Japanese. I told them I’m just a regular Chinese person =). It really doesn’t bother me at all. It’s a compliment though for me =)
Honestly i wont even be bothered arguing with these people. Some people are born assholes. In my line of work i deal with many people day in and day out. You will have better luck talking some sense into a rock. Only thing you need to tell yourself when you hear these kind of people is that thank god you are not like that and to teach your children not to be like that. Arguing with them will only frustrate yourself.
Yeah, the litany of topics in the “conversation” between the girl and the French was just a little too convenient.
I am personally weary of the “other people torture so we can too” defense. Everyone who tortures is an asshole, and everyone who defends torturing is defending assholes whether they accept that fact or not.
But it’s okay, cuz eventually Tibetans and Uighurs won’t be tortured, so let’s just all relax about it — the screams will stop on their own in a couple more decades. Yay.
so french people stink, are arrogant, ignorant, argumentative etc… If this is not cliché, what else is it? when un-educated people whoever they are french or chinese, what happens? Nothing very exciting. You’re as ignorant and narrow minded as these people were…
Whether this story is true or not, I agree with the sentiments of the writer. The funny thing is that any Chinese girl who is fixated with the ‘romance’ of France has usually never been there, nor met a French person. Those who have usually turn to despise them..
However, re. every one of her protestations about her co-passengers’ bad breath, lack of respect for fellow passengers etc…I am looking forward to exactly the same (and worse) from my Chinese co-passengers on tomorrow’s internal flight (as I do about twice a week..)
Bon voyage!
French people adore being equated with Sartre’s existentialist thought while China is an atheist country.
Both engage in culinary delight and admirable culture.
Both countries are “progressive.”
Both consider revolutionary wars to be the true “holy” wars.
They need to allign rather than compete. It can start with the people giving each other a chance.
I’m from chinese descent but I grew up in France. I can say that both cultures suck in a way but also are amazing in another.
Arguments like these start when each side defend their opinion vehemously without even trying to understand the other side. It’s all about ego, no matter which country or social background you come from. This story is totally biased, and do you know how I can tell? Well, it’a all about the good vs the bad, the white vs the black, the victim vs the bully. There is no such thing in the real world. Of course,people know there are different shades of grey, but they tend not to understand it or to accept it, and it’s not all because of ignorance or brainwash, it has also a lot to do with their own pride.
Obviously faked. I sure hope there’s no people dumb engouh to believe it’s true. (i laughed at the “bad odor” part. A eight-year old could see it was forged.)
Another couple of ways you can tell it’s fake: there are PLENTY of Asian American flight attendants on every American airline, and even if they were Chinese they wouldn’t wear a PRC flag button while on duty.
Someone asked in this forum “…why do most people in the world do not like Chinese?”
I am going to try to answer this question honestly although I realise it may induce some very strong disagreements.
I am an Indonesian, but now live in England. In both countries I have seen many Chinese immigrants, both the new comers (usually international students or workers) or the 3rd or 4th generation of Chinese immigrations. I have befriended with some of them, one I have been particularly loved and cared for for the last 11 years.
But in both countries I often see Chinese people only mingle within themselves. Even those who have been living in Indonesia all their lives, for example. They go to Chinese-only schools, and churches with the most Chineses, why?
In England a lot of Chinese students don’t speak very well structured English because they only hang out with other Chinese students.
Me and my other international students friends often wonder why are they like these. If you don’t want to be disliked than maybe try to actually MINGLE with the other nationalities as well?
As for the French – just ignore them. They don’t like anyone, not just the Chinese. I am sure most of you have heard about extreme racism in France suffered buy Lebanese, Arabs, Chinese, Indians living in France. The French dislike Germany and they look down on anything “English”.
French people are truly Narcissist! They only love themselves!
“As for the French – just ignore them. They don’t like anyone, not just the Chinese.”
Is that why I am born of a chinese Father and a french Mother?
I’d just like to say that coming, quite literally, from both ends of the spectrum, there is no such thing as a french-chinese hate, per se. Every bloody country on this planet has a grudge against someone because otherwise they got nothing to talk about at night after dinner.
Sounds familiar? Stop reading this garbage and get back to your lives.
YOU ARE JUST A HATERRRRRRRRRRRR
Hmm, the only way to ‘win’ and argument with people like that is to appear to symmpathise with them. They were obviously trying to rile this girl up and it worked. If you listen to them and say ‘oh you poor thing’ they run out of hate and look stupid. Now they have more reason to mouth off about Chinese. Not all French people are like that. China has its faults, corruption, censorship but it is a great country and some people are just xenophobic.
I can understand why she lost her temper, it is not easy to keep calm. but do not turn it into us vs them as that makes you just as bad as those idiots.
The French, especially in the 1930’s, made exquiste films. Lets try focus on the positive things in every country and not type cast a nation because of some racist pigs.
I must say something regarding this story.
Actually i’m french living in China and i’m tired of hearing all day long : We chinese people hate French people. Well, we are just people. One country is not good or bad. In life everything is not black and white. There is stupid people and some aren’t. It’s not because of their nationality !!!!!!!! If you meet somebody who is cold with you, do not speak with him. And PLEASE don’t say on every sentence where he comes from. I’m just thinking that this kind of writing helps people to be angry and nothing more. And actually it works. Thank you. I tought that your website should be interesting and maybe you was thinking differently. But I was wrong. It’s a shame.
When you are talking about French people having a smelly mouth, it’s another example how stupid you are. It’s like if i met one stupid chinese guy in the street and i would say on my blog that all chinese people are stupid because of him. I know intelligent and capable chinese people as well as stupid and boring ones.
You should more read books instead of spending all your days on internet.
Some other people said that french are racist and all french are stupid because of it. It’s another perfect example of stupid people who are speaking without knowing. Go to France, speak with French. Be open mind, make your own point of view, THINK.
Anyway, hopefully there’s also decent people like Dina who meet my thinking. Sorry for others who had the same idea as me. I do not have so much time to read all comments.
I am a fourth generation Malaysian Chinese and truth be told, am rather disconnected from the land my ancestors came from.
Nevertheless, the rise of China overs the past decade has filled me with much pride.
The first time ever i stepped foot back in China, I felt something stirring in my heart, and it felt like home.
Initially I felt very much like a foreigner, but when I had time to absorb the environment around me, I felt like I was back home.
The time i spent on vacation in China was an experience I would say was eye-opening.
I know for a fact that we Chinese people had a very tough life back in the days,
and who we are today is brought about by the environmental conditioning.
(Of which has not been very kind to the Chinese people. We had a tough life and were very poor. My ancestors were probably nothing more than peasants living from hand to mouth everyday.)
But for all that us Chinese people have been through, I believe I do not stand alone when I say that we have come a long way, YET it is not yet the end of the road.
And though there still is a long way to go, we will rise up as a people of better and stronger spirit.
Both in mind and body.
To my cousins in China,
We on the outside are proud of the motherland.
Let not what we have been through in the past put us down, instead, let it be a stepping stone toward a brighter future.
ps. I have invested heavily in H-shares recently with my strong conviction in the Chinese economic fundamentals.
Not only do I believe in China’s future, I put my money is where my mouth is.
Very nice of you to express your encouragement and support to “your motherland”, 4th generation Chinese living in Malaysia.
If I was that girl I wouldn’t just argue, I would be kicking his balls with my stiletto heels and scrap up his ugly face, and tear off his thin hair.
MAKES ME DISGUSTED!!!
Hmm, yes Violence is the answer, it always is. It is fully justifiable to mutilate someone just because they dare to criticise you or hold opinions that dont accord with your own. Why didnt she just use her kong fu on them to kill them all, the filthy capitalist roaders, how dare they criticise the glorious harmonius Han Empire!!!!
I do agre this stereotyping and western crap about tibet that is years ,years out of date makes me sick i am a westerner,that has lived in china for 10 years + now,my wife is chinese,Back in england now but,i have to stand up for the chinese people ,Many westerners Dont have a clue,you dont know what the people of tibet,china really want Today!,and are hearing this out of date western,media view on it and believing it,go and live in china and then,maybe(myself included) you can at least come to conclusion,we cant judge as we dont live there,since coming back to west i have to say i am dissappointed we used to know better then this,the strange thing is i feeling china is becoming more free then the west,but when i tell people(except for people who have lived in china)this they dont believe it,and give the same crap as the media that they so love,fake or not fake ,this topic does bring up alot of reality,DONt believe everything you read in a newspaper ,tv or even book
You do know that the Summer Palace was sacked in response of the MURDERING and TORTURING of the English-French DIPLOMATIC delegation? Chinese tend to be VERY oblivious of this fact.
So the sacking of the Summer Palace was out of self defence and justifiable?? Are you really that ignorant?
Where did he say it was out of self-defence or justifiable? In the PRC these kinds of historical subtleties (the idea, shock horror, that history might not just be a neatly-structured black-and-white narrative demonstrating Foreigners=wrong China=wronged )are utterly ignored.
Yes it was Justifiable the Chinese authorities in Beijing had just killed (tortured and killed) the British legation in Beijing (no way to treat foriegn diplomats regardless of what u think of their countries actions, also no-one to behave unless u actually want an ass kicking)
very nice chinese fiction, in french we call it a “chinoiserie”.
the only argue than chinese say is : “Have you been to China ?” no more.
I’m living since 8 years in China, the girl prefere to imagine story than understand french (and other) culture. This story in plane is clearly impossible or changed.
In fact, french people was the european people who love china culture the most before Olympic game, remember the years of china in France in 2003, but the china culture and the mainland is completly different.
During olympic flam in Paris, they saw chinese people manifest for dictature the same people who received french nationality (they ask to lost chinese nationality to have it) and some chinese student than university is paid by french worker tax (10000 euro/years by students). It was the first time in 130 years (I meen since “la commune de Paris”) than we saw foreigner people who manifest for a dictature in Paris, and we will remember it.
It’s not than we don’t like Chinese people, they’re just indifferent for us now (we understand now than chinese people from Malaisia are more interesting), we don’t care of them, specialy people who ask politic refuge and then manifest for a dictature, we forget you, you are nobody, forget us, and please, stop to come in France to ask social security.
sorry for my english
zhongguoren de cunzai jiu shi renlei zui da de beiai.
ruguo shangdi shi zhongguoren wo yuanyi ru diyu.
zhongguoren shi yi ge zhanglang minzu.
ruguo shangdi shi wanmei, weisheme hui you zhongguoren de cunzai?
zhongguoren de suzhi feichang cha.
What is wrong with you?? If you hold the Chinese in such low opinion, why did you bother to learn Chinese, hold your website in both traditional and simplified Chinese and decide to have a career singing song in Chinese lyrics? Your speech is racist, ignorant and biggotted. Yet I would never say New Zealanders are racist, ignorant and bigotted. Individuals must be judged on their own merits. You are a sad pathetic person.
as a Westener living in China, I am appalled by how many Westeners are ready to criticize China in this self-righteous fashion without knowing anything about the place, and without even realizing what their own countries did to China only a century ago.
Not knowing their own history eh? Sounds suspiciously similar to the citizens of a certain nation of 1.3billion people…
stupid French asshole thinks the world owns them something! you c**nts raped africa and your colonies around the world for slaves.
Think of your own history before criticizing others
Another innocent muppet, surprised that foreigners aren’t all gentlemen.
PSA to the Chinese:
France isn’t all that romantic
Italy isn’t all that stylish
Japanese don’t eat babies and perv-out 24/7
And last but not least: you can buy noodles in all major cities of Europe, you need not pack a suitcase with noodles when you fly to Italy for a few weeks!
Chinese people and their prickly princess-ness… they make Koreans look like sophisticates by comparison.
Fiskadoro you are right on the money!
I used to ask Chinese girls which country they would like to visit and they all same “France because it’s very romantic”….and that’s all they seem to “know” about France.
hi guys i am from pakistan…..first of all i read all this case…just wanted to say by reading comments.I can say that Chinese people are cute innocent and trustable.I have my friends from china .They are all helpful.By studying in UNI. i can say that nothing wrong with china.But the worlD is trying much MORE to make wrong CHINA.(by showing china negative image).Conversly the world dont want china to be superpower…But my nation will be with you and you will be on top SOON.
Kai wrote
“It is entirely possible this is a fabricated story made to whip up nationalistic fervor. Hell, even the Chinese netizens seem skeptical (look at the first comment, it was hilarious). ”
Absolutely, it was very funny to me
As a French mate with Asian roots, I got the opportunity to live in Shanghai for three years. I lived in other European countries as well and I got the chance to travel quite a lot.
For those who would like to read it, here is my point of view on French people in China (I draw a line between people who left France for travelling the world and them back home, they obviously do not share the same opinions on the world, how strange) and some Chinese youngster’s behaviors.
As commonly acknowledged, French people are definitely not the most humble people on earth. They are proud of their cultural legacy; they often get blind and biased on other cultures and they like to give their opinions on everything (to me, sounds like Chinese people could be French on that basis). On the other hand, they are often more creative than most of their western counterparts, they like to enjoy life; they like to meet people and to share point of views. They can be serious and humorous at the same time. Very reliable as friends, maybe less as a BF/GF. Predominant role of alcohol, cigarettes and drugs in most youngsters’ daily life (can be connected to “enjoying life” experiments).
Most of the French people I met in China were senior expatriates, students, VIE (young workers with low French wages allowing them to leave very well in China) and assimilated (French locally employed people) and tourists. Most of them after staying a while in China have similar thoughts about the country and I never heard anyone saying this “black and white” shit like exposed in the post. They all can spot good and bad points, advantages and disadvantages, mix all that up and get a decent vision of the country. They try to get a bit of China and its culture (when they have time), they try to mix with locals – as far as it is (im)possible in Asia, probably more than most of the Chinese communities I saw in France or Europe. I have no polls on my side but I can bet most of them like China and will spread a positive image of the country after they leave the place.
Another thing is most of the French people differentiate the critics made against their government, against the country and its actions and the feeling of being French, Chinese unfortunately do not.
China suffered all along its history, because of itself, because of westerners, because of Asians. The country is coming out of nowhere and is now flirting with the world economical leadership; Chinese people can and has to be proud of this. Even if I am not a left-wing addict, I believe Leaders of CCP are smart and deserve the people confidence. Then, Chinese people, stop thinking everybody hate you, that’s totally wrong! Most of the western people who never went to China are afraid of you, they sure are, but they do not “hate” China.
On the contrary, if stupid people keep on spreading those kinds of posts, as an example, they will start to hate you, not because of history or rampant racism but just because some are acting like spoiled children who know nothing and those get more attention than the average billions of fine Chinese people. And contrary to the average Chinese thinking, a lot of foreigners care about cultural differences, they make mistake and they fail to learn properly mandarin but they try.
Chinese inherited a great potential from your parents and from the generations who died with nothing to give a brighter future to their children. Young Chinese people did nothing for their country until now, but as things are going, a lot of challenges are lying ahead and they will have the responsibility to tackle them. Time will tell whether they will be able to do it on their own or not.
Ps: I believe Anglo-Americans are definitely better at French bashing than Chinese and if they want to reach their lever, they should train harder;-)
I happened to stumble on a translation of this China Smack page, on anti-CNN.com:
http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/viewthread.php?action=printable&tid=148332
So we can all relive the glorious comments we made… in Chinese!
There’s a link to the Chinese discussion board, but it’s about the story in general and I don’t think anyone deigned to comment on our comments…
Though my Chinese is pretty bad so there may be some feedback somewhere on the site…though sadly, I highly doubt it. Someone (who can read Chinese well) should browse around, and I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
“This is the self-proclaimed friendliness, generosity, pursuit of romance and freedom of the French people?”
Why do people always generalize about other cultures. They see an American who has lots of friends and think, “This is the individualist American everybody has been talking about?” or they see a Uighur man pass them on the street and they think, “Wow – This a the thieving Uigher that didn’t steal my wallet!”
Why are you surprised? Don’t generalize like an idiot. I know I do sometimes, and it always gets me in trouble.
The Chinese government began a massive campaign in 1989 to convince young Chinese people that attacks on the government are attacks on culture. The fact is, both sides need to be open in a debate about what’s going on here – but I rarely find Chinese people who can open their minds, let alone their ears, about the hard truths within their country. Chinese people should be proud of their government – it is probably strong enough to make them go to war for it in the name of defending culture! If I wanted to follow an empty ideology I would find a religion.
And we thought the Cultural Revolution had ended. Guess there are still some Red Guards around.
Christianity is “empty” only to the blind. There are more believers in Jesus Christ in China now than there are Communist Party members. What are they doing? How are they impacting society? Are they loudly spouting ignorant propaganda with the real threat of violence to those who don’t join their political chorus? Or are they quietly leading lives of faith, striving to love their fellow man, no matter how unlovely? The answer is obvious. Communist/socialist ideology isn’t empty, no. It’s filled with selfishness and murderous hate (a readiness to kill those of opposing ideologies).
Stupid Thread.
WTF ?? The girl is just another stupid girl, she can’t win a healthy argument and cries .. hah
Typical of Chinese people.
The girl was defending her country against rude and unprovoked remarks. The details are too emotional to be faked. You only have to look at the protests in Paris to see who the real “brainwashed” ones are.
She has changed what actually happened because she lost face, and is trying to regain her face by parading a faked story infront of the fengqing.
What actually happened was:
french guy: China sucks!
girl: *runs away and cries*
French people have bad mouth odour because of smoking – come on! you are chinese! Look around you! Chainsmoking, oily food and no flouridisation make Chinese people (on average) have repulsive oral hygene. I bet the chinese guys on that plane stank way worse than the french.
KaiSa…you are SO RIGHT!
Chinese people smoke more than anyone other people I’ve ever met and have the WORST breath I have ever smelt!
And I have visited many different countries and met many different people so I am going on my own PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and not just stereotypes.
Chinese people often wonder why no one respects them….then they spit on the floor of the restaurant they are in and start shouting on their phone without any consideration for the other customers.
…and thats saying something.
As a Chinese -American, I would say that the “newly” rich Chinese courted by Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc. all tend to be from the Upper Crust of Mainland China. They buy all brand name apparel, flaunt their wealth wearing non-Chinese/European clothing, sunglasses, shoes; drive German automobiles. As they are the Upper Crust of their home country, they expect everyone to bow to them, and their whims. Unfortunately, simple issues like an airplane seat window turn out to be an exaggerated offense, because it is the Right of the Passenger to decide if they want to accomodate people who Paid for Different seats. If the Chinese girl was so keen on Windows, why didn’t they Switch to window Seating BEFORE at check-in? If they needed a window so badly, instead of snuggling up to their countryman who was a plane salaried staffer, they should have MOVED to a Different seat. Instead, they chose to pout and fume about issues that were not related to Their Own Seat on the flight. If you wonder why people like this cause anti-Chinese attitudes, arrogant expect-the-world-to-change-for -them people like her DO
Darling…well that’s true that those silly boys were very annoying, but I think you just cannot say that ALL French then become annoying people.
It’s just making you the same bad as them.
Because you then stereotyped French people because of there’re a bunch of spoiled boys that ,unfortunately you’ve met. It’s just the same as they stereotyped Chinese people for, let’s said, some political history.
And you know what?
Guess it. He hate you, he stereotypes you, and then you hate him back and stereotypes himself, and so on, so on. Never ending.
That’s what I called “HOW TO SPREAD RACIALISM” Quick, easy, full of pains, and never ending just like a virus.
I’m a chinese by the way..
I think you guys should show your proud being without doing the same stuffs–stereotypes to those freaks..They don’t even worth 4 it!;)
1. Homegirl shouldn’t have thought that all French people are supposed to be educated and civilized in the first place.
2. I can’t stand foreigners that think they understand all of CN’s problems and criticize it.
3. I can’t stand nationalistic CN ppl either. Nationalistic CN ppl are usually just a bunch of brainwashed, party butt-kissers. They most likely cheated their way through college and they’re spoiled.
4. I can’t believe she actually criticizes French ppl’s bad breath and poor hygiene. PPL here in CN aren’t much better.
When a foreigner say some thing not good about China any Chinese would say “if you do not like China why did you came, go back to your country”, but this French guy did not say that, does this make any sense to you?
China is a great country but the problem is Chinese people believe it is “greater” and try their best to show/prove/pretend it the “greatest” every time, everywhere.
Some one said”You can fool someone every time and you can fool and you can fool everyone some time, but YOU CAN NOT FOOL EVERY ONE ALL THE TIME”!
China is for the Han! When you insult our China, you insult our Han race! Now you know the code, now you know why we get upset.
Your such a retard! it is possible to insult China without insulting the Chinese people. Thats like saying if i criticise Isreal im automatically being anti-semitic. Notice how u just say the Han anyway, China isnt just populated by Han, although im sure some of China’s none Han subjects would be more than happy to not be Part of China :)
“now u know the code”… shove your code where the sun dont shine! people are free to say what they want here (unlike China) and if u dont like it, then why dont u go back to where u cam from!!!!
This isnt China where the CCP think they can tell people what to say and how to feel, so dont come around here telling other people what they should and shouldnt do or say, you horrible dirty little Han nationalist bigot! clear off with ya!!!!
Uhhhh Ha-LoooOOOoooo if you even prefer an ergonomic fork to disposable chopsticks, then you’re just a dumb, barbaric westerner with AIDS.
“French people” >>Bad breath and poor hygiene??
LOL
Whoever takes this article seriously is a dumb ass.
Chinese people have the WORST breath in the world!
I know because I’ve lived in China for 3 (non-consecutive) years!
I have a lot of friends from France and they are all very clean.
As long as you view the world as divided by national borders, you miss seeing reality. I see an asian beating a white man, the asian happens to be japanese. Do I stop and ask the asian man’s nationality, or do I rush to his aid in beating the white man?
actually if you are really asian, you will happily walk on by
Bravo my dear I’m sure you did all Asians what’s more Chinese PROUD!
the french. you know we say its hard for a big head to dodge blows. but then again a big head means a big mouth too.only listened to because its source is unnaturally huge,believed because it is intimidating.but if you could only take a moment listen closely,its just another dumb ass goliath
Oh my god it’s been a while since I read a whole load of crap, but I have to admit that you’d be an excellent propaganda story teller. Chinese people and you obviously demonstrate it, display levels of ignorance similar to what was common in Europe during the Middle Ages. Unconditional respect and love for a country that has no respect for human beings in general, nor for ethnic minorities, unskilled workers, is a joke basically, a country so utterly convinced of its legitimacy that it bans its users from using the internet as we all do? That says enough, a banana republic, a powerful one indeed, but still no more than a silly and pathetic puppet show. And people like you disgust me, no intellectual correctness, no critical thinking just blatantly and blindly defending the honor of your “great” china. Grow-up, silly and senseless patriotism it just makes me furious. If you would grant people some freedom: freedom to demonstrate, to express political ideas and dreams of a better future then you would be able to talk, but until then, please close that little rattle snake mouth of yours and go eat some dim sum, and spit in the dirty streets of Shangai, and swallow the disgusting air that floats around your city, convincing yourself about the almighty power of the great republic of china. Don’t quote Victor Hugo you don’t know what you are talking about, ignoramus, let the Ouigours and the Tibetans express their political views and give them back their wealth and freedom and then maybe we will talk about culture, freedom and other topics. Power is not disgusting industries exploiting its own people, power is the freedom to think and express yourself. Concepts that you are strangely enough not familiar with.
Paul…I’m with you 100%
Well said my man.
Seriously Paul, what do you call the millions of people that supported Bush regime invading Iraq and finding NO WMD? Smart? Educated?
You do realize that the only country that ever used WMD is the Americans and the more people died in history for the name of Christ than any other cause.
My friend, you’re brainwashed.
She’s a proud Chinese.
Um you are wrong on that one buddy. Your little “party” is responsible for more deaths in the last 50 years than ALL WARS COMBINED. Please do not rattle off your anti Christian crusades nonsense. That was WRONG, but please don’t try to equate that to even the last 50 years in DALU.
And that chick, is a typical monkey that tries to be superior to “ANGLOS” but is yet still on a plane in France. Stay home if China is so “niu bi”.
It’s pretty strange for someone to try to insinuate that Americans are uneducated and dumb when he automatically equates everyone to be supporters of Bush, the Iraq war, and a Christian. Read a fucking newspaper for once. Generalizations are not a sign of the educated. My friend.
Hey, I was just reading through these posts again. Man I am hilarious!!! Fauna, I should get troll of the year award on Chinasmack. How about it?
cartman says…. FUCK FRANCE… AAAAND CHINA!!!!
As a Chinese American, I understand exactly the feelings you must have felt during your argument. The fact is there is such deep institutionalized racism and prejudices set against China and the Chinese that people in the west (mostly Caucasians) don’t even realize it for what it is. The media certainly doesn’t help. For example, just look how they covered the Olympics, focusing on any negative aspect they could (downplaying or simply ignoring the positives), and often making mountains out of mole holes. Certainly the false pictures and false reporting by the media covering the Tibetan riots incited Chinese from around the world, helping to unite us and make a stance. We were so mad.
This is our problem, we Chinese do not unite enough to make a stance against the racism against us, to make ourselves heard, which is why imo people think they can get away with so much.
When I’ve encountered racism or ignorant remarks in the past, I usually stand up for myself and make a stance, however I’ve found myself always being the lone one, even when there are other Asians around me. That is just a shame and makes me even more mad. We really need to make our voices heard, which is why I am so proud for what you did on that flight.
It’s a pity some people can’t appreciate the quiet people and really need sense knocked into them instead.
“When I’ve encountered racism or ignorant remarks in the past, I usually stand up for myself and make a stance, however I’ve found myself always being the lone one, even when there are other Asians around me.”
What you wrote is absolutely true. The major reason why Asians are powerless in Western nations is because unlike the blacks and jews they don’t give care about being treated like shit by any other race. In fact, as evident by the posters on this board Asians would bash their own cultures just so that they would stand out and above. Sad but true.
I don’t know much about French, but i have lived in China for 3 years and some of the points the french guy made are entirely true.
I have been hassled by chinese travellers in China eastern airlines for pushing my seat back.
And we all know China is probably worst in terms of customer service in all forms
Talking of stealing – Chinese make world class fake of all things from LV, Prada, gucci etc.
I think the younger generation of China may be confident etc but needs to clean up their own house first before throwing stones at french and other people.
It is ironic that this is the typical reaction of defensive Chinese people when they encounter stones being thrown at them by people of other countries.
I dont believe this story is true, even if french people are rude from time to time. Chinese has not always been nice. China has been nice when powerless.
I think its absolutly no reason answer in the same way, that just makes me sick. China has good and bad and so does almost every other country. Nowadays China has more to pick up from the west then west has to pick up from China. We know more…
However i dont believe this story, its made up.
The reason for US and Europe disliking China is simple. Jews own media, books and movies. Your not letting them in to control you so they punish you with writing bad stuff all the time and yes, some people believe that.
Blind Nationalism and Cheap Politics !!!
First sorry to hear about that story…I’m French and I’m ashamed of that kind of people. You did met someone really stupid, narrow-minded that I would slap myself haha.
If I was on that plane, I would take your part even if you said really stupid things too and you generalized about French People…
By being over nationalistic, you blame a whole country for one man stupidity… You should travel more and learn that they are good and bad people everywhere !! I’m living in Beijing and been travelling in China quite a lot and Chinese people can be full of preconceived ideas… Tell their opinion about things they don’t even know (just what they saw from the state owned TV or newspaper). So he was stupid, narrow-minded and clearly a jerk ! But ignore him and ask to change your seat would have been the best…
I’m very proud of my country but not at all of my compatriots unfortunately… You should learn to see the negative points of your country and that will make a change in the future !
Just making it clear my last sentance was a generic term. here your country can be China, USA, France or whatever !! Knowing your weakness and negative side are a strenght and you start doing positive change when you know that
You are always angry?
I understand…who would be happy to be born Chinese?
Chinese, do shut up and toil. Next life you might have the chance to be upgraded to Korean status. Understand that you are already happy to have reached the human status, even though, you are only at the first level.
Living like a Student in Germany,
Living like a Good Old Man in France,
Living like a Monk in Russia
Living like God in India
Living like a cockroach in China.
thus is the life that you deserve….mere mortals.
Okay, I hope you enjoy injecting yourself with silicon so you can get a job. :)
If she did such a good job of debating with those French people, then why was she the one who retreated in tears? Good job?!
She’s the one who’s ranting and raving like a lunatic over nothing. Those French people probably just laughed their asses off at the amusing little Chinese mosquito. They’re probably sitting in some cafe and enjoying their substantial freedom, vacations, and health care system …. not even taking a moment to pity that poor Chinese girl they once met.
Yet another fake article. Anyone who has spend time in China and knows Chinese people well would know that an individual Chinese person would not have the courage nor the ability to stand up and argue something like this alone. Chinese only have this type of courage when they are in a big group of Chinese, then they can should slogans. But an intellectual challenge like this, even the most nationalistic Chinese person would walk away.
This is a fake article
Don’t feel singled out. French people are notoriously rude to everyone. Sometimes I feel they’re especially rude to us Americans, then again, we’re pretty rude to them too. Honestly, a lot of Americans deserve it…
Not all French people are like that though.
Totally fake article, without any doubt. Being French myself, i have no problem admitting that we have our fair share of assholes and rude bastards at home or travelling around, but this imaginary “argument” is so filled with all kind of cliches Chinese have about foreigners in general (and French in particular in this case) that it becomes pretty amusing indeed. No French person, even the rudest idiot, would have used these “arguments” in the conversation, they would have picked others, not necessarily more clever, but definitely not these (the flirting with the air hostess if she is japanese but not chinese is particuarly grotesque). Imagining a French person saying “Victor Hugo is the pride of our people” also makes me laugh out loud! The first comment was the most relevant, when did 5 mao dang start writing novels? fascinating indeed…
“America is the country with the best personal hygiene in the world, the passengers basically do not have any mouth odor.”
Totally true….most Americans do have good hygeine, ESPECIALLY compared to Chinese people who don’t bathe or brush their teeth or put diapers on their babies who they let shit and piss in public places like supermarkets…..so UNSANITARY!
what the hell are you talking about? Majority of Chinese people are clean. They DO brush their teeth and bathe and put diapers on their babies and they usually don’t pee in public. It’s usually the small kids that do it cuz they cant hold it in! THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Since all the places/districts in China are not all the same, it all depends on your living situations. There are very poor parts in China which would mean the people there might not have the best hygiene compared to the city people.
You obviously have not lived in China before but if you did, then you obviously know nothing of the country. So before you insult the Chinese, make sure your information is valid. What you’re talking about does not apply to the majority of modern China but if you are then what you just said makes you look like a total idiot.
YUKI is telling lots of big lies. I live in the richest and one of the most modern cities in China, Shenzhen. And I can tell you that everyday everywhere you go you will see children and adults urinating and defecating in public. This includes on the sidewalk, on the bus and on the subway. I have never ever seen a Chinese child wearing a diaper. Additionally the general level of hygiene here is horrible. I simply cannot imagine how much worse it must be in the poor areas. Yuki, why don’t you stop lying?
Lala, you are one of the Chinese people who I can respect because you can be proud of your culture and heritage and also be honest about social problems.
All you’re doing is pointing out all the bad things about China’s environment and making it seem like a shithole. I bet you would be a fuck ugly person if all I ever talked about was how crappy your teeth are or how much acne you have.
I hate people like you because you just have no pride in your country at all. Go bleach your skin and enlarge your nose if you hate being Chinese so much.
What the hell am I talking about? Well, in English, it’s called REALITY.
The majority of Chinese people are NOT clean according to (1) Most foreigners (2) My own personal experiences in China.
They do NOT brush their teeth. I know this because (1) Most people here have rotten breath (and teeth) (2) I’ve actually discussed this with a lot of Chinese people over the years and they told me it’s NOT common for Chinese people to brush their teeth.
If Chinese people did care about hygeine then why (1) Does everyone have bad breath (2) Virtually no soap in public bathrooms (3) Almost impossible to find deodorant in China (4) Spitting and Littering in the cities is totally common and acceptable
I’ve worked, lived and studied in China for 3.5 (non-consecutive) years. I didn’t read a magazine article about China and make a lot of assumptions or visit some small village for one week…I’ve got enough experience here to qualify my accusations.
Over the course of 3.5 years I’ve lived in Wuhan, Changsha, Tianjin and Tangshan. I’ve also visited Zhengzhou, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Xi an, Qingdao, Kunming, Nanjing, Shijiazhuang and several other cities so I know what I’m talking about.
Yes, Chinese people are HUMAN BEINGS…..so please act like it and stop acting like animals! Spitting, pissing and crapping everywhere is disgusting and unsanitary….being defensive about it or saying, “That NEVER happens in China so you’ve obviously NEVER been here!” is ridiculous and makes YOU look like the true IDIOT.
Ive been to China
When mop asks me if ive been to china,ill and ill say i thought china was a good country until ive been there
noisy,hard matresses,expensive food that is extremely salty,polluted air and water that smells and tastes exactly like the expired cheese with rotten eggs i saw yesterday,dirty streets,bad manners on the streets and there are so many more bad things about china that will make he comment too long.
thats why im going to stay in canada and rather visit a different contry
btw,i just learned that chinese people have small penises a week ago
what happened? gang raped by a bunch of Chiense peasant you were staying with?
Look its the French, they’ve lost two world wars, have huge noses and no sense of humor. You really shouldn’t make fun of less fortunate.
Being of Chinese descent myself living in Australia, when people criticise/insult the country I live in I say to them good on you, you have the right to do so. I wished everyone did this, without opposition. Criticism is reform, silence never changed anything. This is why people dislike China, they don’t like constructive criticism.
A country is nothing more than a border that defines a parcel of OUR planet. Nationalism simply perpetrates discrimination (us versus them attitude), so does symbolism like flags, its a piece of cloth with colours and patterns on it. Flags were intended for identification and nothing more.
What I really don’t understand is the Chinese developed Confucianism which emphasizes morals over laws. Yet they have the same government from 1949, who imposes heavy law enforcement. Maybe somebody will eventually realise this is how they keep control of the populous. One would be forgiven for suggesting China a North Korea with economics (wealth) thrown in. Wealth is not what makes the democracies of the world tick. Politicians get voted in, not paid (although to be honest this is not always the case). Anyway I’ve ranted on long enough, sorry about that.
I only agree with these French people that China always use its advantage as the most populous and the largest country to do/ steal what it like in other countries. What a bad habbit! You guys, Chinese youth should do something to improve your country image in other country’s eyes!
The current faults of China is like a hugeass pimple on the face of every Chinese citizen; we are pretty aware of it. So therefore, when people constantly points out your pimple to you, you’ll probably want to punch someone in the face.
Study the below site for a better picture of who the Dalai Lama is and the interests he represents :
http://www.rense.com/general81/faeeof.htm
On another note the Bon Sect which Dalai Lama is head of, as opposed to the original Theravada Sect (the first true form of Buddhism predating all other sects) from Nepal, is a Tantric sect.
Real Buddhists who are not just out to politically destabilize China should study the scriptures properly and learn for themselves that the Tantric Bon Sect has outlived it’s day and must die out.
Why must Tantra die out? Because the spiritually aggressive nature of Tantrism will not be acceptable as part of the body of teachings by the next Buddha who will be known as Maitreya or the Laughing Buddha, so practitioners of Tantra beware!
“The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money!”
Tell that to the vendors in downtown Los Angeles, CA USA who regularly sell pirated Hollywood movies, Fendi knockoffs and a myriad of other bootleg, rip-off products. These are blatantly produced in sanctioned factories within China. Hate to burst your bubble, but that is criminal – and is a form of stealing.
On another note, I am surprised that an obviously well-read, otherwise intelligent Chinese lady is not familiar with the French. I mean, COME ON! The arrogant, nose-in-the-air, rude behavior towards non-French is considered perfectly acceptable to the French. So don’t feel so special – but I commend you on your comments. Just face up to the fact that there is valid criticism of your homeland, and freedom vs. oppression is always considered superior by Euro and Americans.
I agree with points on both sides of the argument. I will say this those…the chinese have been brainwashed. The french are Arrogant.
I am neither..however, although I have traveled to both countries and have respect for both countries when it comes to luxury i lean towards the french…my wife is chinese, therefore there is also a place for China within my thinking as well. As for Chinese buying LV….not my experience of them buying a dozen or so pieces, I have rarely seen this happen….but I will applaud their ability to counterfeit a dozen or so pieces.
There’s a grey market for Vuitton in China because the firm has models it sells only in France. As a result, the shop across from the Arc of Triumph turns away Chinese clients, or caps their purchases.
LOL. It sounds like they’re both in good company. Both sides think they’re the best and both are rather isolationist as well. From my personal experience, the Chinese are particularly guilty of this fact. It’s one of the reasons why I can’t handle hanging around exchange students from China despite being Chinese myself. ><
As for buying a ton of expensive items all at once, I can tell you that the ones with money will do stuff like that. My mother, my aunts and my cousins have all done this — it's like they just blow all their money at once so they don't have to do it again in the immediate future.
Sounds more like he was French-Canadian rather than just original French flavor.
for those chinese who deny the filth, i have but one thing to say, chinese toilet
After reading this, I feel so ashamed at how that Chinese girl on the plane conducted herself. Getting angry, being cocky and shouting are not ways of educating ignorant people and encouraging integration.
The chinese are full of contradiction. Before they start judging others, they just should look at themeselves. They are one ENORMOUS embarrassment. In the west, their young people cover themeselves with fake designer wares. Dye their hair to look as western as possible and the chinese girls are all shagging up with the worst looking white males. Someone above called Carla Bruni a whore? Just look at the chinese girls in Paris and you know who behaves like whore. If they so proud (which I believe everbody has the right), what are they going to do about the massive immigration to the west? If the young chinese want to be respected they should start by acting in a respectable way.
Pathetic! This artical is so false, no-one would openly say these things even if they thought them, this is just an angry chinese person trying to insight hate between nations. As for the bad mouth odour due to smoking, you do realise that it’s been illegal to smoke in any public place in france and most of europe for at least 2years which means most people don’t smoke anymore but in your perfect country you can still see teachers smoking near children and doctors smoking in hospitals and your mouth odour isn’t great. I’ve flown to lots of countries but to be honest the chinese passangers have been the rudest, you don’t control your children, listen to music without headphones so we all have to endure it and complain when asked to turn it off and generally act like you own the plane. But nice try with your made up story, i’m just sad that most commenters here are so blind that they believe you
Regardless of anything else she says, the girl just throws her credibility away when she starts making unfounded generalisations about the hygene of a whole culture – the literary equivalent to off-balanced hay-makers. It just sounds desperate. Plus, let’s face it, Chinese hygene, well… you see where I’m going with this…
This story is a fake, and it’s very poorly told. It looks like the script of a bad made-for-TV short film. The anti-French clichés are preposterous; that supposed man doesn’t look like any living person. Yes, there are jerks in France, and sometimes some of them fly abroad. But this one is a cardboard dummy.
By the way, what’s with the flight attendant saying “no politics?” Don’t you have the right to discuss anything in a plane, provided you speak calmly and don’t shout?
It was obviously fake by the very fact that they did not mention any stolen Hollywood themes playing in the background, nor did three Chinese stand up, in succession, with lots of beefy meat on their bones and stare valiantly into the horizon with the sun shining on their face and wheat stalks flowing gracefully in the wind.
Haha…I forgot how hilarious this story is. ‘Victor Hugo is the pride of my people’ HOHEHOHEHO!
Bonjour, stop saying bad things about French. You will only hurt their feelings and make them sulk. They are very sulky breed of people… very emotional! Sometimes arrogant too. And Thiery Henry, please that was a blatant handball… you cheat :-p Irish don’t have much luck do they.
Je plaisante!
Sadly i do have to agree with the frenchy, china is a repressed state and should do much much more to question its own values before questioning others
as a chinese person you should get used to this kind of treatment until you can have the guts to demand answers about your countries human rights abuses !
what is up with all this racist bullshit? it seems like idiots always like to use their fucking race as a reason to make a big deal out of nothing; someone makes an innocent comment and the idiots get all upset and defensive
sometimes people think im japanese or korean,so what? what the fuck is the big deal? whoever gets offended by that must either be the biggest idiot alive or was totally brainwashed by the stupid evil communist government
“Look at Chinese people, when they buy one, they buy half a dozen or a dozen so of course you are uncomfortable. The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money!”
How naiive can you be?? China routinely tramples on every Intellectual Property rule in the world, that’s why you can buy 12 bags. Your country has absolutely no respect for business ethics.
I am flabbergasted you would bring up the hygiene of other countries. How many countries do you find children and even adults defecating on the side of busy city streets? China has a long long way to go if it has ambitions of being a truly developed country.
Your ultra-sensitivity is symptomatic of China’s desperate inferiority and victimisation complex.
And might I add, you talk about this generation of Chinese being independent, free-thinkers, free from so-called brainwashing. Well, brainwashing might be an exaggeration, but your ignorance of the role that propaganda plays is breathtaking.
The 1980s certainly saw a period of unprecedented free thinking that basically led to a sort of romantic political liberalism, and we all know where that ended up….. June 4, 1989.
The CCP knew that was a mistake and so in the 1990s very purposefully went about bolstering patriotic education with the Campaign for National Unity. China’s fostering of nationalism was no accident. It was a very intentional strategy designed to replace the vacuum that was left by the failure of Marxism-Leninism. What has developed from that though is a very dangerous brand of popular nationalism that we now see in China today. What the proponents of this nationalism (such as the author of this site) do not realise is that this approach to nationalism is not productive and does nothing for China’s grander strategy on the world stage. You attack the Japanese routinely, what good does this do? Did it ever occur to you that one day the Japanese are going to turn around, sick of trying to apologise and getting nowhere, and will turn militaristic. How would China feel about that?
I don’t think anyone in China is worried about Japanese military now, The Wu. I’m new here, so bear with me, I’m not quite understanding how these discussions tend to turn so angry (and especially at the Chinese by supposedly well-adjusted lao wai). As for the article, I think it was borderline believable, certainly there are anti-Chinese bigots around, just read China Smack. BUT, why did the private Chinese conversation (in English so the French could overhear) so conveniently feature what sounds like a sociological study comparing the behaviors of different nationalities on planes? This is the part which sounds made up–or at least embellished to help make the point.
I would just like to say that I like the French people. There’s actually Chinese in Paris, you know. I also like Chinese people. What I don’t like is when someone cites some event in their life where they were supposedly done wrong by an individual from another country, race, or ethnicity, and this information is dubiously (and melodraumatically) stretched to show “that’s how they ALL are” and so forth. No matter if this terrible event DID happen to you just as you said, that you think this represents some universal truth about “those people”, you sound stupid and bigoted.
The Wu, okay, I don’t know why, but I’ll bite. Your big issue is really intellectual property rights? (so much so, that you insert it into a story about an airplane fight). I like to buy cheap stuff. I like knock-offs they call them in flea markets all over the world. I am not in any way saddened that in this trade, companies selling 4 thousand dollar handbags or watches to rich folk feel ‘ripped off.’ mei guanxi, I don’t care. Music? Movies? In this downloading world, are those things really “owned” anyway? There’s more important things to worry about I think. Like, may I interject? U.S. warmongering, unemployment, crime, racism, lack of universal health coverage, morgage and economic meltdown, and so forth?
I can see why many foreigners look down on us. Only after having lived abroad for a number of years do I realize how unhygienic the Chinese are. Never will I go back to such practices. It’s gross. The Chinese only think of money – they will pursue that regardless of any moral or hygiene considerations. Disgusting attitude.