From Mop:
Chinese origin MM’s heart very pained: On my flight, I reproached French people who discriminate against China!
It was on the plane to Paris, three weeks after the Olympic flame was obstructed in Paris.
Next to me was a Westerner, his companions were also all around me. After takeoff, their conversations helped me determine their identities: a group of French tourists returning to their country.
This American airline company’s route to Europe very rarely has Asian flight attendants. So when an Asian stewardess began providing refreshments, everyone was surprised. A French guy sitting near me started his French-style romance, charging the Asian stewardess and saying: “This beautiful young lady is Japanese right?!”
The young lady looked at him and then looked at the five star red flag pin/brooch on her uniform before politely telling him: “No, sir, did you see this? I am Chinese.”
Suddenly without words, his expression cooled, giving people the feeling that he would have continued being enthusiastic had the lady responded that she was Japanese. The stewardess also felt his sudden change, turned her eyes to me, and asked me what I wanted. I used English to reply her.
As soon as the service cart continued forward, that French guy may have felt that what he just did was a little arrogant, and said to me “Sorry, the past few days that flag has been everywhere in France, I truly have had enough! What are they trying to do!”
Without waiting for him to finish, I hurriedly said: “Sorry, sir, I also come from that flag’s country.”
Perhaps he did not expect this, so his expression became a little stiff. He icily looked at me, and then turned to his food before him.
Afterward, as if I did not exist, he and his companions treated this airplane like a Parisian road-side cafe, chatting and drinking, pressing the stewardess call light, opening the window shades of the passenger cabin and allowing the sun to shine in. I controlled my temper, and used my expression and body language to communicate my displeasure, plugging my ears with earplugs in front of them. I need to rest! I politely said to my neighbor: “Can you please close the window shade?”
I truly did not imagine he would answer me like this: “Sorry, young lady, this window seat is mine, the plane ticket was paid with my money, you have no right to request this of me!”
I was stunned for a long time, not knowing what to say! This is the self-proclaimed friendliness, generosity, pursuit of romance and freedom of the French people? So what they were pursuing was their own freedom! I did not want the remainder of my journey to be spent in this kind of atmosphere, and concluded that their inhuman behavior was deliberate against us Chinese. I decided I may not be able to argue with them but at least I can avoid them!
Getting up, I walked to the work room at the back of the passenger cabin, and started a conversation with my distant compatriot. Aside from some small talk, she told me about her work experience. She said that amongst her work assignments, the France route gives her the most headaches because the passengers are too wanton, do not listen to the flight attendants, continue to walk around when the fasten seat belt light is on, that it is common for them to ask for 4-5 things each time they want something, and it is as if they have been wronged if it things are not done this way. Not only this, and perhaps as a result of of smoking, their mouths are very smelly. I said to her that people say Chinese passengers are also very difficult to handle. She said that the route between China and America is 14 hours, the route between America and France is 8 hours, and in comparison, Chinese passenger’s behavior is far better than French people. If French people were to sleep for that long of a time, it would be impossible to enter the passenger cabin [due to bad mouth odor]! She also said that she must admit, America is the country with the best personal hygiene in the world, the passengers basically do not have any mouth odor.
We chatted like this. I told her about what happened with my neighbor. She said, “there are all kinds of people, do not worry, you can come sit in the empty seat in the very last row.”
At this moment, my neighbor and several of his companions also come over! They were probably also tired of sitting. Upon seeing us two Chinese chatting, he provokingly said to another stewardess: “Chinese people are so pitiful, living in a country without freedom, look at the Communist Party’s masterpiece, brainwashing their own citizens, such a large country not allowing other religions to exist…”
At this moment, I could not endure it anymore! I asked him: “Have you been to China?”
“I do not even have the desire to go!”
“Then do not say anything!”
“You have no right to ask this of me!”
“You have even less right to make such personal remarks about what you do not know!”
“Young lady, do not be angry, can you understand why so many young people unscrupulously assemble on other country’s territory, expressing their dissatisfaction with everyone in the country? If this is not having been brainwashed, what could it be?”
“You truly do not understand modern China. Do you know the background these young people grew up in? Let me tell you, they are the 80s generation that were born after China’s reforms. Almost all of them are the only child in their families, whose parents provided them with everything they could. They are a self-confident, self-centered, generation with their own way of thinking, having grown up listening to Western popular music and watching Hollywood movies. They do not feel that they are inferior to others, so when they discover their own motherland being looked down upon by others, without anyone’s incitement or brainwashing, they automatically/voluntarily stood up for the honor of their motherland!”
“Even so, they cannot do whatever they want in other countries? Who welcomed them to come?”
“I think their “page-ant” [probably means march/demonstration] and assembly is legal. Otherwise, the French pol.ice would not allow it.”
“No politics, no politics.” Another flight attendant wanted to break us apart, asking the French guy across from me: “Tell me about the good places in Paris, I want to see museums?”
The French guy’s eyes flashed, and introduced some like the back of his hand before finally saying: “Us French collect precious artwork from various countries in the world, including the home country of these two young ladies–China gave them to us.”
I could not take it anymore, and stared at him: “Why would Chinese people give their own art to your France? They were stolen by your ancestors!”
“Nonsense, us French people would never do this kind of thing!”
“Oh really? Do you know Victor Hugo?”
Surprised, he said: “He is the pride of our people! You also know him?”
I did not understand his surprise, and carefully said: “He previously said in his essay: ‘One day, two robbers came to China and brutally plundered the Old Summer Palace. They killed people, started fires, and committed all sorts of atrocities. The name of these two robbers, one was England, one was France.’ May I ask, who is France? How many Frances are there in the world?”
In the face of my interrogation, he actually said: “Impossible, I am not an uneducated person and I have never known of this kind of thing!”
“Come say that to me after you have gone home and checked the library! A people unwilling to face their own faults has no future. I only admire French people who are like Hugo!”
“A true French person does not buy other country’s luxury goods!” a female companion of the French guy said to me.
Tit for tat, I said: “If you are referring to your LV bags and perfume, why not say this to the English and Americans? You are envying Chinese people! If I am not guessing wrong, a woman like you needs to save for awhile to buy an LV bag. Look at Chinese people, when they buy one, they buy half a dozen or a dozen so of course you are uncomfortable. The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money! If you are a true patriotic French person, why are you flying on an American airline! Go fly your own French airline!”
They started to use French to shout, I was so angry I began to shake, so I pushed aside a path to return to my seat, grabbed my hand luggage, and returned to sit down in the empty seat in the last row all in front of their hateful eyes. At the time, had there been a gun in my hands, I think I would have immediately shot them all! Ignorant arrogant French guys!
That compatriot gave me a paper towel and said to me: “Thank you, without this uniform, I would have been on your side.”
My tears wantonly dripped down, did I win this argument? If I did, why would tears be all over my face? My heart was very chaotic, very pained. For my motherland full of hardships, I pray that she can truly become strong!
Comments from Mop:
野牛与比尔:
When did the 5 Mao start writing novels?
疯草招摇:
Watching politics evolve is like watching the circus,
Just the year before last was the China-France friendship year, but it has become like this now?
What will it be like next year?
Circus and political turmoil, which one does the lou zhu like to watch?
狼族VS天涯:
What you did was very right. I am proud to have a compatriot like you. If I were you, I too would have done what you did. I support the LZ.
felicia2009:
I support~~~absolutely must ding…I do not feel one bit what is so good about foreigners! Especially France.
My geography teacher said, France is an irrational, only knows “romance” country. Not worth mentioning!! Lou zhu, next time it would be better to just pretend you cannot see these people. Ignoring them would be the biggest humiliation!!!
2009伱犯賎錒！？:
Why is our China always disliked, bullied, by people? Why? ~~~ Are our Chinese people bad??
明明白白的痛苦:
No matter if it is true or false, it makes people even more angry!
全面小康:
French people, if you are unlucky enough to encounter them, you can fully understand the French philistine mentality.
Personally speaking, I am more willing to deal with Swiss or Americans.
Jews,
I do not even want to say.
They always think the entire world owes them.
magnichina:
With regards to this MM’s behaviour I express admiration.
I hope all of China’s sons and daughters can be like this! Do not lose your self-respect in the face of foreigners!
splendour83:
Mop friend, most French people are not bad people, only a little mentally retarded.
9NJH:
I am giving my “topic reply virginity” [first time replying to a BBS post] to a beloved person who reveres the motherland. LZ, let me tell you a piece of good news: Our generation will make our motherland strong and powerful, I am sure of it!
厚土黄天:
France, a pompous country~ taught a lesson by Germans twice yet still no progress.
11码:
What he said was not wrong,
Chinese people have indeed been brainwashed.
牛B天天有:
Sigh…France’s appointed president, I still rather like.
This Sarkozy is completely a NB…completely losing all of the French people’s face…letting the world’s people all know that France is also completely insensible and unreasonable country…
w56373511:
First, I will not talk about the authenticity of this post.
French tourists just recently won first place for the world’s most disliked tourist amongst the service industry.
df_llz:
Support. Recently, I have seen many things that have also given me impressions of France that were different from the past. I have decided that after learning French and there is an opportunity, I will refute the French face to face.
Comments from China.com BBS:
红色哨兵:
Our disgrace/shame comes from our elders. I hope it will not happen in the future!
我是你妈二爷:
You stupid cunt. Those studying abroad in France are a bunch of corrupt official’s sons and daughters, including you. Are we Chinese people more wealthy than the French? French people only need to save half a month’s money to buy LV, but Chinese people buying half a dozen each time? If [those Chinese are] not corrupt officials then what could they be? If you are Chinese, then do not buy any French things. Trash begging to be fucked like you must be a French-Chinese [Chinese person with French citizenship]. If you really have the courage, give up your French nationality. Our motherland welcomes you.
我是你妈二爷:
[referring to above comment]
Extremely well-said. Your father being a [corrupt] official within the country [China], yourself outside of the country driving BMW sports cars, going on vacations, being “patriotic”…this kind of life, I would love to just dream about it.
柔士:
France is where freedom originated, so it is normal for French people to enjoy freedom. Lou zhu’s self-esteem in the post was too strong! It would have been better to just treat them as foolish people.
anthonyz:
There is nothing wrong with liking freedom. Also, other people saying that Chinese people have been brainwashed, lied to, and have no rights is not wrong either. You yelling at people on an airplane again confirms that you are ignorant and have been brainwashed, that you have not experienced much outside of the country. Embarrassing!!!
捧场评论:
The most ignorant yet brainwashed idiots are all those double-crossers, those scum and small people who not only do not help their own but build up others with their eyes wide open! A compatriot no matter how wrong is still your compatriot. No matter how civilized an outsider pretends to be they are still an outsider. This should be understood clearly.
守护神@龙:
France is really amusing.
There first lady is a whore.
ssmrh:
Good job~! If all of China’s youth can be more like you, China will become even stronger!
雅木三水:
France did good, extremely good, just great, helping China’s young generation experience the West’s pride and prejudice, helping them wake up and work harder.
sunyang2008:
I can only say that prosperous and powerful China makes ignorant Westerners envious! I support the lou zhu!
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Très bien!
我 是 法国 人，对不起。
我 爱中国人 ！！
I am French, sorry about that. French people can sometimes be really annoying. Some of them have a poor culture, and unfortunately don’t make the difference between the Japanese and the Chinese, and I think it’s really shocking. The two cultures are very different and are both extremely interesting for different reasons.
I don’t think French people do not like the Chinese. It’s just that they do not know the culture, so it leads to a misunderstanding. For those who are interested in it like me, we think it is amazing and we love it!
Sorry again about these stupid French people who spoiled her airplane trip.
Tis why SirBi has to act crazy all the time.
Because SirBi sees thru the bullshit of it all.
The fundamental flaw with the human race VVV is that we all fail at empathy and cannot see the other side, in the overall scheme of things.
There may be a few break-through here and there… ultimately, we are ALL products of the brainwashing of our upbringings and culture, are the results of our humanities.
We are suck.
Tis why I continuing on being a hermit. And flipping the fingers to each and everyone of you. I’m really sick of you all.
Go f*** yourselves.
“ultimately, we are ALL products of the brainwashing of our upbringings and culture”
You said it in a very negative manner, but basically you got to the point.
It’s sad to see that many people don’t even try to look at things from a NPOV…
Hans, i’m sorry to contradict you on a single point : what is a ‘Neutral Point Of View’ ? Even ‘neutrally’ exposing facts is taking a side… for example, on these 3 sentences, which is the neutral one :
- i had a car accident
- someone crashed his car into mine
- i was involved in a car accident ?
I’m sure you would say that the 3rd one is the most neutral… but if the fact is that someone drunk crashed into your car, how would you expose a NPOV ?
I still got no answer to this question…
oh c’mon now, smile a little.
I’m fuckin serious like a 50 foot blue giant blasting shit with my ***************************
“A compatriot no matter how wrong is still your compatriot.”
Really? Is utter loyalty to nationalism the highest moral standard?
I ask these questions not to question the intent of the poster or of the French (I have had my fair share of horrible experiences with the French), but I do agree with one of the posters above that arguing in a place like an airplane is uncalled for and does it really change their opinion about China? And the comment about the LV and being envious…I have no idea where that comes from it just makes you sound immature and shallow (to be blunt).
I’m with you on this one. I remember an American lady using the “My country right or wrong but my country all the same” quote just a year or so ago and it made me flash with anger. Such simpleminded loyalty is what allows a people to commit the worst crimes and engage in the worst actions. Chinese who like to throw around “motherland” this and that would do well to avoid such blind loyalty
It is very important, I think, to keep in mind that loyalty to a country and loyalty to the current regime running it are not necessarily the same thing. Sometimes to be truly loyal to your country you must even fight against the regime in charge.
Oh, and I agree that French people have horrible mouth odor. It is true!
Indeed, I get angry whenever I hear fellow Americans acting as if what we do is right no matter what. Some of the things our government has done are indefensible, so I hate to see people defending them.
But on the other hand, the strange thing about nationalism is that it proves we’re all the same. Almost everyone wants to be part of something bigger than themselves and for many people, their country is that “something.” So it’s not hard to understand that people want to love their country and I don’t hate anyone for that.
But I do wish that people weren’t so quick to judge people based on their country. And that includes claiming that people have an anti-Chinese (or anti-French) bias just because they disagree with them about something.
I’ve been to France. There are many nice people there, including the people who welcomed me into their home while I was there. There are also rude people. I did my best to speak French, but some people looked down on me. There are all kinds of people in France.
And in China, many people are worried about the corruption in the government. We hear all these stories about people being killed just because they wanted justice and it makes people angry. But I don’t hate Chinese people, I worry about them. If the people cannot control their government, the government becomes dangerous. Just look at the times America’s people lost control and how bad that was…
That’s why we worry about the Chinese people. I’m sure they want to solve their own problems in their own way, but it hurts to have people declare that you’re “anti-Chinese” just because you worry about them. That said, it’s probably because people get angry when they see injustice. So Chinese people only see people who are angry and don’t understand that people are upset because they care what happens to them.
OH please,
People worry about us, by telling us that we have no freedoms and a product of brainwashing… good help that is.
> OH please,
> People worry about us, by telling us that we have no freedoms and a product of brainwashing… good help that is.
China has a lot of corrupt officials and there are a lot of people who would rather defend their country than admit that.
But that proves how similar we all are.
Please read the following link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-467265/Parisians-rude-smelly–say-tourist-chiefs.html
LoL, wow, they actually have a name for it?
This actually reminds me of when Americans started a campaign to educate their own tourists/travelers to be more sensitive to foreign cultures/customs to combat the ignorant American image Americans have abroad.
To be honest, this is the first time I’ve personally ever heard of the French being stereotyped as “smelly” but it appears to be well-known by most others. I guess I’ve just never encountered smelly French before or heard others say so, but its pretty damning when your own tourist chiefs think it is prevalent enough to mention it.
“The Japanese embassy has a 24-hour hotline for those suffering from severe culture shock, and provides hospital treatment for anyone in need.”
Jeebus! That’s the second funniest thing I’ve ever heard! “Take me to the hospital! A smelly French dude wouldn’t help me find the cheese and wine store!”
Keep the comments comin’, it’s time to push the “China does not have any suitable men” thread off the top spot!
It’s quite interesting that – despite the fact that the girl writing is angry about French assumptions about China – she immediately identifies herself as Chinese and them as “Westerners”.
Although clearly the French people are wrong to make such predictable generalisations about the air stewardess or the Chinese government, it’s sad that both parties seem intent on dragging up history and national stereotypes (I mean sorry, dental hygiene?!) to start a fight.
It seems that both countries have a lot of work to do to overcome this rather ugly nationalism.
DWR
That story was, well, just that – a story. Authored by bored fenqing or government lackies, such nonsense tales of imagined prejudice against Chinese are designed to whip up nationalistic feelings when China gets a bit touchy over some victimhood-inducing trivia.
In short: pure moonshine.
It is entirely possible this is a fabricated story made to whip up nationalistic fervor. Hell, even the Chinese netizens seem skeptical (look at the first comment, it was hilarious).
However, I wouldn’t say it is “nonsense.” These mundane but nonetheless aggravating exchanges happen quite often between Chinese and non-Chinese.
If we take the story to be true, I actually thought the girl did a good job actually trying to keep her indignation in check early on. When she actually started speaking up, she actually made some good arguments and was doing well right up to the point she started talking about LV and stealing stuff. You NEVER, EVER, in an argument give your opponent such an EASY opportunity to derail you, and she did it. She should never have crossed from using Hugo to refute the French guy’s ridiculous claim that other countries willingly GAVE their art to France to saying “The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money!” Although more true than the French in context of historical artifacts, it is just TOO easy to think of modern Chinese counterfeit goods, brands, etc. She shot herself in the foot there and it was a tragic ending to what was a good run up.
I’m a little amused that the comments here (on chinaSMACK) all jump on the “oh, this is just whiny nationalistic Chinese again” or “this is obviously fake propaganda” bandwagon, as if it is completely unfathomable that Westerners could be so ignorant, offensive, and discriminatory.
Again, no one, including the Chinese, know if this was real or not, but have none of you actually experienced or witnessed such an exchange? I have TONS of times. Hell, I remember some Europeans arguing with a Chinese girl in a McDonald’s on Huai Hai Lu behind Babyface in Shanghai after a night of partying. It was such a buzzkill. I won’t even go into the exchanges that happen outside of the country.
How likely do you think it is that American Airlines allows employees to wear nationalistic flags or symbols on their exterior uniform while on duty, such as the claimed flight attendant with a Red Star commy pin. Are you serious?
I asked my friend who is a FA with Cathay in HK – no possible way with Cathay. Also, she said that if passengers are arguing a male flight attendant will go break it up, not let girls deal with it, especially if it’s involving another man who is behaving so aggressively.
I find it hard to believe it’s not the case, considering how well liked French men are by their American counterparts..on American Airlines nonetheless. Far fetched, and that’s not even getting to the whole “Excuse me, kind sir *bows*, but [insert bullshit argument here]” kind of storytelling.
1. We don’t know what airlines it is. It could be any “American” airline. I don’t recall it specifying “American Airlines.”
2. The context of the story was that this took place 3 weeks after the Olympic torch relay through France and in the big run up to the 2008 Olympic Games. Many Chinese were probably quite enthusiastic about supporting it, so I can very easily imagine a Chinese flight attendant showing her pride either with or without her employer’s explicit blessing. Moreover, I can imagine her employer seeing nothing wrong whatsoever with their flight attendant wearing a FLAG (not some swastika) as a pin just as many Americans took to plastering US flag bumper stickers and wearing US flag pins after 9/11. Don’t be ridiculous.
3.Not all flights have male flight attendants, and it would be LOUSY protocol for the flight attendants PRESENT at the argument to not say something but rather run off to get SOMEONE ELSE to say it just because that someone else is “male.”
4. This argument was heated, but I don’t think it got aggressive. Nothing suggested they were coming to blows.
5. “considering how well liked French men are by their American counterparts.” Are you kidding me, Rick? That statement of “truth” you just made has about as much weight as this entire story ostensibly about a real argument a Chinese girl had with some French people. I have NEVER heard of any widespread and generally accepted notion that “French men” are “liked” by their “American counterparts” unless you’re suggesting American men like French men “on American Airlines” with some homoerotic subtext.
6. I don’t see how inconceivable it is for a flight attendant to use “sir” or “mister” when speaking to a passenger.
Again, no one is precluding the possibility this is a story fabricated for ulterior motives but the propensity for so many non-Chinese here to dismiss it as obviously fake sounds more like people who are either so lacking in self-awareness or simply refuse to accept the fact that non-Chinese can be so ignorant and offensive. What? Is racism, discrimination, and general self-righteousness only applicable to the Chinese?
There are good solid people on both sides, but there are also hypocrites and ignorant idiots also. Is it so hard to conceive of these people meeting each other on a plane and having a little tiff? Please, get over yourselves. You only need look at the vast majority of comments on this website to know that ignorance abounds and people say stupid shit that offends others all the freaking time. The first step towards coexisting peacefully is to at least have the balls to recognize this fact that not everyone on “your” side is as enlightened as you are. Instead of denying their existence, or accusing others of fabricating, focus on the real issue on how to constructively react or deal with such idiots.
1. American airline company != American Airlines, you’re right, however, that being said, it doesn’t really matter. Airlines have pretty similar standards, and I only referenced the fact that I asked an experienced flight attendant her company’s policy, assuming many other airlines would have similar policies, a policy which *MAKES PERFECT SENSE*.
2. “I can imagine her employer seeing nothing wrong whatsoever with their flight attendant wearing a FLAG” Are you kidding? Do you think nationalism in a public domain during a time when there are obviously heated protests and/or events *around the world* is acceptable by employers in an industry which focuses on public displays of customer service between people of many cultural backgrounds and religions? Ridiculous notion, and I don’t think you have thought it through if you really stand behind that.
3. “Not all flights have male flight attendants” I fly internationally maybe 5 or 6 times a year, and haven’t seen a flight without a male flight attendant. I will ask my friend, but again, I am almost sure it is a policy that they have at least one male flight attendant, or if there is not a male flight attendant they will usually have a co-pilot or another male employee of sorts in the cabin (although on China domestic flights usually just chillin at the front). I don’t know how frequently you fly, but I fly *a LOT*, and recognize these things.
4. It’s not about coming to blows. NOT AGGRESSIVE? The girl apparently (although I don’t believe it’s true) was busting out in tears, and from the sounds of it, many of the arguments were standing up rather than sitting down at their respective seats. This kind of behavior on an international flight will be *diffused before it gets to blows*, not handled once they begin, Kai.
5. If you read my statement regarding french men liked by americans, I was implying that an American (esp a male american flight attendant) would have likely taken the Chinese girl’s side in a potential argument against a french guy because most american men HATE french guys. In the context, I thought the sarcasm was pretty obvious, read it again.
6. “Sir” or “Mister” was claimed by the little girl trying to make her arguments, I don’t think so. From the victims perspective they’ll always put on the mask of “oh I was so ridiculously over the top polite, and they were just being ignorant and brute”..yawn. Notice how every sentence she claims she said starts off with some kind of nicety, and every sentence she claims he says starts off with something condescending? Yeah, that’s how it always happens.
Your soapboxing again, ranting about how every side has ‘bad people’ – who says french people are so polite and infallable? I don’t see that argument being made, I CERTAINLY would not be making it. In fact, although I have (very few, but have) french friends, in general I find them quite distasteful.
1. Good, you haven’t been on planes where the flight attendants actually have nameplates that say where they’re from, have you?
2. By your logic, all of those companies who promoted or advertised their Olympic sponsorship not just in China but worldwide were being ridiculous. Rick, I understand what you’re trying to argue, but I’m just telling you it isn’t likely to have been such a big deal that she wore a pin of her country during a time when many Chinese were wearing pins to express their support of their momentous Olympic year. It would have been a faux pas by the employer to say “even a small pin that shows you’re from China is unacceptable.” Can you imagine the discriminatory backlash and negative PR that could bring to the airline? That an American airline won’t even allow one ethnic Chinese flight attendant to represent her pride in her country in what everyone understood to be an important year for them? What’s next? American airlines forbidding Muslim women from wearing hijab (or head scarves)? I dunno man, it sounds reasonable and CONCEIVABLE to me. If you want to be definitive about it, you can find out which American airline it was and then email the airline representative for clarification. I doubt you will and I’m sure you’re going to continue being self-assured in your conclusion, but I’m just saying that element of the story really isn’t as ridiculous or obviously fake as you say it is. Maybe we have different experiences.
3. I fly plenty, Rick. Don’t you remember that I just came back from Hong Kong for CNY? You dodged my point that it is silly for a female flight attendant to not say something herself to try to calm down an argument and instead run off to find a male flight attendant to do it for her. Rick, why CAN’T a female flight attendant ask any passenger to calm down? Why must she think so much and actually go get a guy to do it for her? That’s ridiculous!
4. I thought the girl cried after the argument when she was sitting alone in her new backrow seat. At the risk of sounding sexist, a girl getting emotional over an argument about discrimination isn’t that difficult to imagine. It doesn’t mean anyone was being physically aggressive so as to need a MALE flight attendant to, you know, exercise some muscles and break things up. If you read the story, the arguments were standing up because the girl had moved to the back to chat with the flight attendant and then the French guys joined the conversation later. Dammit, Rick, read the story carefully before talking out of your ass. While you’re at it, read what I said. I never said they should come to blows and then defused. I simply disagreed with you that the French guy was behaving so aggressively. If I recall from the story, the French guy even asked the Chinese girl not to get angry. If the guy wasn’t being aggressive and they were merely just having a heated argument, why should the female flight attendants who were witnessing it HAVE to go find a male flight attendant? Why can’t they THEMSELVES intervene (as one tried) and say, “hey, come on now, no arguing.” READ the story, Rick.
5. Sorry I missed the sarcasm. It wasn’t immediately apparent to me. Either way, did you like my homoerotic twist? We’re creative, aren’t we? ;)
6. Dude, Rick, she said “sir” ONCE in the entire narrative and it was the FIRST exchange the two had. Again, READ THE STORY. You’re projecting. There is very little in the narrative to suggest she was sugar-coating her politeness or courtesy to the French. She even admitted she argued tit-for-tat in the end. Neither did she make any self-references about how polite she was to them. You’re reaching and trying to create a criticism that isn’t supported by the story. She even explicitly said she didn’t let him finish before interrupting him by telling him she’s also Chinese. There were NO airs whatsoever of her portraying them as being rude and condescending IN RESPONSE to her politeness. You’re pulling that out of thin air.
Rick, I’m soapboxing as much as you are. You’re secure in your opinion and general approach to these topics just as I am. You may think there is something noble in being honest with how you feel even if it offends others, just as I think there is something noble in trying to bring everything back to what I think is the middle and common ground. I think you’re too far off to one side and unfair. You think I’m annoying for trying to moderate and bring perspective.
I didn’t say YOU were saying French are infalliable. I said a lot of these comments make me feel that non-Chinese seem all to eager to say this stor MUST BE FAKE because the Chinese are again playing the victim card, stirring up nationalism, trying to brainwash their masses, etc. and the notion of non-Chinese (compared to Chinese) being rude and offensive is so improbable that the former explanation HAS to be true.
I think the propensity of believing this true or false is inherently subjective based upon your own experiences. You conclude it is fake for your reasons, some of which I think are a bit of a stretch. I, on the other hand, can see such an exchange happening because I HAVE seen them happen. Yet, at the same time and to be fair, I account for the fact that there ARE fabricated stories on China’s forums meant to stir up nationalism or whatnot and I MUST acknwoledge that some elements of the story are suspiciously convenient. My position is consistent with the factors I have considered. I’m not concluding anything about this story’s veracity and I explicitly state my skepticism. However, I also explicitly state that I think the elements of this story are reasonably CONCEIVABLE. Why? again, because I’ve seen it so much.
Maybe you haven’t, and maybe that’s why you think it is all inconceivable “nonsense.” That sucks, Rick, but just try to imagine the discrimination you face in China from the Chinese and reverse it. Believe it or not, it happens all the time.
Good point, I’ve never once seen a flight attendant wearing a flag pin – in fact I’d never once seen anyone wearing a flag pin full stop until I ran into someone who had just flown in from Israel where he lived in the West Bank as a settler a few days ago – certainly not in China.
And you know its moonshine how?
Shhhh…he has to live out his fantasy that every prejudice is just propoganda.
LOL!!! so funny.
I would expect to see this on snopes.com if it wasn’t so convoluted.
I have a difficult time believing that some of these things were said in public. If it’s an exaggeration and not a lie, then I can understand her indignation might cause her rant to get a little colored, as I have felt my anger boil over at the arrogance I perceived the japanese had towards me when I first moved to Japan. What I learned was my education was poor and so were those people who slighted me. Most of us just need to cool down and relax a little. Our pride blinds us to the words that would express ourselves in a way that they might see their own folly. And on another note, I have no idea what it must feel like to be Chinese, but I see no reason for anyone to feel ashamed of themselves or their country. Nor do I feel anyone needs to prove themselves better. Those with power should fashion themselves the weak among people. Your wealth doesn’t come from you alone. All that you exploit for your gain was taken from everyone’s combined heritage, planet Earth, and from the harnessed sweat of poorer less fortunate laborers.
I just want to add, if he said half of what she said he said, then he should have been tossed from the plane with his balls lit on fire. Don’t my last post give you the impression that I think Chinese should sit down and take abuse from people like that. (disclosure) My girlfriend is Chinese, so when I hear something like this, it’s like she was being insulted as well, and I want to punch the shit out of that retard. Oh yeah, be cool. Peaceful thoughts.
Except, as you point out, it almost certainly is an exaggeration, if not a down-right fabrication.
Nationalism – politics for the simple-minded and a handy diversion from the larger forces shaping our world.
This seems a little bit fake.
愤青又在挑衅
This post has filled me with epic rage. The next time I jet to Paris for a week of shopping, I will only purchase a limited number of luxury goods. I will limit myself to two bottles of wine per meal. Finally, I will cut cheese consumption by 15%. That will show the rotten stinking French! I will do this for the Chinese peasant, who will be ennobled by my brave act of patriotism.
you are obviously a french retard. LOL!!!
*cough* I call bullshit.
everything you know is all bullshit anyway, who cares?
National Humiliation manifested at a micro level.
I agree with everyone’s questions regarding the validity of this story… It seems like a bunch of stereotypes merged with the nationalist propaganda in chinese text books.
The smelly, arrogant french men. The westerners staring down at the dignified young chinese girl. Come on.
And if this were true, Why should an asshole of a particular identity represent an entire nation. This is absurd.
and the LV handbag comments are just comical:
“a woman like you needs to save for awhile to buy an LV bag. Look at Chinese people, when they buy one, they buy half a dozen or a dozen so of course you are uncomfortable.The most important thing is that the Chinese people did not steal, that they fairly buy and sell, that they paid money!”
No, no. We buy a dozen. of counterfeit goods. of course we do not steal, thats only our counterfeiters.
Oh lord. I think I read a story like this in my 2nd grade textbook once.
perhaps it’s time for you to advance to the 3rd grade now, but on second thought you are still reading stories like this.
Where did she said she bought countfeits? Why shoot all the birds, when only 1 annoy you.Iam a Singaporean, in Singapore we live in peace irregardless of races or religions. Those who only think highly of their own race or themself and pass racist remarks are those with inferior complex who only feel comfortable by degrading others. Just like those kids in the 1st grade arguing ; my house is better, my mom is prettier, my dad is stronger etc… In any races there are good and bad, if not why do you need jails? In China, which is a big country their Govt. evolve with times. and they are doing quite well now, they have the freedom to travel and freedom to do or purchase what they want. Of couse there are restrictions. Like in other countries, each of them have difference sets of laws. If we talk about brainwashs, in all countries all the citizens are brainwashed by the government by propagandas. Only those with higher intelligent will see through .
Laughable.
Self-proclaimed pursuit of romance?? Liberty, Egalite, Fraternite…et la poursuite de romance. If you look closely it’s inscribed on the Arc D’Triomphe. Every Chinese textbook says so!
The Chinese really need to stop getting so turned on by the idea that the French are victimizing them and realize that they are arrogant bastards to *everyone*.
What got is started is really the media.
Take for example during the Tibet event, in Canada, there were only 30 or so Tibetans striking in public, but they recieve 3 days worth of cover story in all newspaper. When the Chinese got enough of that, and decide to protest themselves, they ordered few buses, and were ready to go. But then when the bus company realized who it was for, they cancel the order for no reason a day before the protest (they even claim they do not have a valid reason). The Chinese had to go to another bus company to rent the bus. When they started the protest in Ottawa, there were over few thousands there, yet they only recieved a small print somewhere in the newspaper. When asked why they only recieved such small prints, (I believed it was Global news or something) the newspaper responded that it did not seemed important, while the Tibet, with only 30 people, was a lot more important event. And there were not clips of this protest by the Chinese on the main television news.
Does this seem fair? That is propaganda right there. They only broadcast what is bad about China. It’s such a shameful behavior. I mean during the Tibet times, none of the news ever mentioned what kind of religion existed there. They believed in slavery. Priests are allow to enslave people, yet this part never appeared in any media. They only claimed China attacked Tibet, and took power from the monks (the power to enslave). With such propaganda and brianwashing in the West (worst, they do not realize it), how can there ever be peace? Fairness? Equality? Discrimination-free?
The best thing to do right now, is to change the media. Without brianwashing media, citizens will not hate others, thus no war. Maybe someday, there would be an international media guildline that controls all media, a media that doesn’t discriminate against certain gov. types, races, people, gender, belief, religion, and so on.
*sigh … if only~
The mainstream media reports whatever is sensationalist. Its shallow. But its whats most profitable.
But the Chinese protesting in Canada against Tibetans looking for self-determination. Thats a stretch.
Tibetans are very much an ethnic group of their own, they want to be self-ruled, not be watched under the colonizer. How can anyone protest about territorial issues that did not originally belong to them. Its as strange as seeing The Brittons protesting against Indians voicing their desire for self-determination of India in lets say America.
There are old obsolete practices in every culture, as I remembered, my great grandfather had concubines in DongBei, that was a common chinese practice. But is it still relevant today? Indians used to burn the widow when the husband dies, but is it still practiced.
The idea of cultural pluralism is that one state must not impose its own ideals and culture on another. Whats the difference between this and the much hated western imperalism us chinese always love to disdain.
No, they were protesting about the unfair media bias actually. Not the territorial thingy. That’s why they were so picky on about why they did not get much media attention with few thousands of people compared to 30 or so.
During that time, the media put down China’s face quite a few times. They started to talk about all the bad things in China again (bring back old bad news of China and it’s product to get things heated up). It was really quite unfair. Thus the Chinese got piss as it was so one sided (all against China). It’s totally opposite to the Native Americans. When they protest, they get a very small section, and no one bring back history to get things started, but when it was the Chinese, they made it seemed like China was picking on Tibet. More like bullied. I mean, comparing what Canada and the USA had done to the Natives (send them to special ENGLISH school, killing off their culture and language), it’s the same. Native American barely has any voices here *sigh, I do feel for them.
That’s why they were so picky on about why they did not get much media attention with few thousands of people compared to 30 or so.
To be fair, as proportions of relative world population, a demo by thirty Tibetans absolutely dwarfs one by even 10,000 Han people :p
I mean, comparing what Canada and the USA had done to the Natives (send them to special ENGLISH school, killing off their culture and language)
It seems like a very apt comparison, the Chinese send Tibetans to school where they learn Mandarin, and they’re flooding Xinjiang and Tibet with Han Chinese in an effort to Sinicize the areas under the guise of modernizing them. The difference is that Americans and Canadians are very aware of the way natives were treated, and try to make up for it. Books of North American atrocities during that time fill up libraries, I’d like to see how many books about the dilution of minority cultures there would be in a Chinese library.
Yes I guess you are right, in a country where religion is illegal (considering it’s Karl Marx’s communism), they weren’t worshipping any god(s). On second thought, last time I checked they were wearing robes and such, going into temple with gov aid. Cross that out then.
I guess they were very hard working, thus everyone, from all countries accepted them. Cross that out as well, last time I checked Napel gov was trying to kick them out using violence, which the German news group used those photos and said Napel police were Chinese. And the last time I checked, in India, they were also trying to kick them back into China.
Then I guess China took away a lot of things from them, such as a peaceful life. Cross that out as well. The monks there were scarificing normal citizens back then, before the CCP came in. They used them as slaves so that the monks can worship god 24/7 and eat what their slaves harvest through hard work. They also slave trade. NOW I understand why they don’t like civilization! Cause there would be no more slaves!
And trust me, there is a normal town in Northern Ontario, Canada that had been blocked by Native Americans for 1 WHOLE YEAR! Guess what, the media only reported about the event only twice, when it was first blocked off, and second time, when it’s one year later! The gov. didn’t care about it! They weren’t hearing their voices! To completely block off the town from traffic, trains, and such for 1 year, that’s something big, but why reported only few times?
Canadian gov is doing great jobs for the Native Americans too. Give them tax free on something like alcohol and smokes. Let the native children smoke all they want, drink and such after taking everything from them. Giving only a small part of land back to them. The reason why there isn’t a lot of voices for them is because they did not recieved good education to sue the government and to fight back. Where did the lack of education come from? GOVERNMENT! Coincidence? Not at all. No one wants to be sue when they can brush it off like that.
Tibet was a lot better than the Natives. Their culture WAS NOT DESTROYED! Their language and religion still exist. Only difference is no slavery. And as you can see, most of those who protested back then were religious. NOT COMMON FOLKS. Common folks there was not affected at all, actually, if they were slaves, I bet they wouldn’t mind the CCP coming in back then. Some slaves had limbs cut off by the monks. Yes, lets not civilize Tibet and allow them to continue their way. That would be contradicting.
Yes, Tibetans learn Mandarin in school – but their **parents** send them to those schools to learn Mandarin. Their parents **want** them to learn Mandarin.
My wife has interviewed a Tibetan who lives in Tibet. His parents speak different Tibetan dialects – Mandarin helps that family communicate with each other.
In addition, my wife found out that Tibetans **can** learn Tibetan, and can study in Tibetan, but they don’t do so because they will get better jobs if they have good Tibetan.
The local Tibetan government operates in Tibetan and Mandarin, much in the same way as Wales operates in English and Welsh.
Han Chinese are entering Tibet in exactly the same way that Chinese all over China are travelling to find work. I saw Uighars working in the north-east of China. Dandong, the main border city with North Korea, has a mosque! There is a huge amount of migration all over China. Do you want a return to the days when the CCP tightly controlled the movement of everybody? Do you want less freedom of movement?
How about you get your facts right first? I’m not a supporter of the Chinese regime, but seeing this dis-information going unchallenged makes me angry.
Regarding the next post (can’t reply to it for some reason), I assume Anonymous is refering to the following case: http://www.mccarthy.ca/article_detail.aspx?id=3594
Note it’s not a “normal town”, it’s a remote mineral exploration site with probably no permanent residents anywhere near. The ability of the Native Americans to stop/delay the exploration company and the company’s efforts to then go through the courts for redress go a long way to explain the difference between the current Tibetan situation and “First Nations” in Canada. That said, Canada is on a long road to addressing its misstreatment of minzhuren and the PRC may similarily come to regret its current efforts in years to come.
Anonymous
In your condemnation of Canadian government’s treatment of the aboriginals, you forgot to mention that along with tax-free alcohol and booze, they get a FREE EDUCATION. That’s right, they can go to university for FREE. While I am by no means supporting my government and saying everything is peachy keen with the Native American situation, I just felt the need to point out that one big thing that you so conveniently left out.
Anon: You seem to be making strawman arguments instead of actually responding to what I said. Refuting an idea that you yourself created doesn’t prove anything.
I think one of the primary points that you are missing is that North America is trying to rectify these injustices that we have committed. You can dismiss them with an anecdote about Canadian problems, but there is one issue. We have a free press, as does the UK, and France, and any one of them would be biting at the bit to scoop a story like that. If a denigrating story came out there would be dozens of magazines that are waiting to make that point. We have less to worry about colluding journalists because anyone in any country in the world can break a story.
Ha Ha. Free press in USA? Give me a break! If something is not on State Department line, it can not be published!
There’s a primer: When some guys wanted to organize terrorist attack on Fort Nicks, all press said that they are from Former Yugoslavia. But, guys was Albanians from Kosovo.
American press is very biased toward Serbs. Maybe, millions of dollars given to top USA politician by Albanian diaspora.
Tibet and China have been closely tied together for many centuries. I would say that the situation is more like England and Ireland than India.
And if we take that comparision, the English invaded Ireland and brutally repressed them. The Communists invaded Tibet, and liberated the peasants from an oppressive feudal system. It is interesting that the Dalai Lama advocated democracy after his dictatorship was overthrown.
The Western media are completely blind about Tibet. They have whole-heartedly bought into the Tibetan exiles’ narrative, without bothering to check what the situation in Tibet was before the communists invaded.
Religion in Tibet is much stronger than anywhere else in the rest of China. Religion in Tibet has suffered under the Communist regime, but it did not suffer more than religion in the rest of China. So is this oppression an argument for self-determination, or for a change of regime for the whole of China?
I fully understand how patriotic Chinese feel – in their year of their glory – the Beijing Olympics – they got pissed on by Western media because of Tibet.
It is great that you recognise China’s occupation of Tibet as colonialism, but please look at the rest of the situation. China’s colonial policy does not excuse the lies and slander spread by the Western media.
If you’re going to compare it to England and Ireland, You do realize that such an end for Tibet would help no one?
Uh oh…is this post going to become China vs. Tibet & the World again?
daily entertainment. ignorance is so bliss.
The french are so funny, everybody makes fun of them and no one takes them seriously. I almost feel bad for them.
The same could also be said of the Chinese.
Arrogant French meet Nationalistic Little Chinese Girl = Major Fight.
Ridiculous….
Everyone loves their country but at present times, no country can be great alone.. survive alone, ’cause I believe in ‘GLOBALIZATION’ which makes all of us interdependent on each other, so even it’s China or America or France this kind of arguing is useless and immature rather than patriotic.
P.S I didn’t know that Chinese passengers behave so well in international flights.. ROFL!!
Don’t worry, no one can help others hating them. Perhaps the French were brain-washed to hate Chinese! It is hypocritical to loot and colonize and then point the finger at others.
Q: What similarities bring people of two countries into meaningless confrontation?
A: Nationalism and ignorance.
Haha, I fully agree
Has it ever dawned on either the Frenchman or Chinese woman that both of them have more in common then they would hope to admit?
Though I would say a strong national identify with their country and pride as opposed to nationalism and ignorance.
+1 for USTCer.
Ignorance is what pushes being proud of one’s nationality into nationalism.
Nationalism belongs to ignorance, so it’s more like different types of ignorance at odd with each other.
fake story !
Patriotism is really disease that infects all man on earth. We remain a primitive race until the day we evolve beyond it.
> We remain a primitive race until the day we evolve beyond it.
I believe that’s impossible therefore everything will stay as always.
But well, maybe that’s the way to go, religion, nationalism, etcetera always was and will be an handy tool for the controlling forces.
Patriotism and Nationalism are not the same. See Orwell’s ‘Notes on Nationalism’ for the distinction. Love of country and pride in one’s idenity are fine, holding a fanatical unthinking loyalty to a particular territory (and letting a silly regime use you) is not, particularly when it can only find expression through antagonism to and crude caricature of ‘the Other’.
People are not brainwashed in France !!!
It’s just that there’s a pro-tibet sentiment here that has existed for a long time though I dunno why -_- And recently,there were some crimes and scandals that involved these damned mainlanders !
That’s why France is one of the countries where they have the worst reputation…(hehe, where do they have a good reputation except North Korea ??)
Even if it”s fake, this story shows once again that Mainlanders are just a bunch of peasants who only know the words “ultranationalism” …
But still, the girl was right about Victor Hugo’s essay. But nobody knows about it in France cuz it’s not a major work (it’s only a letter among thousand of others).
If there’s a pro-Tibet sentiment in France but you don’t know why, doesn’t that sound suspiciously like being brainwashed?
LoL, anyway, propaganda is indeed strong in China, but I think Westerners need to be careful when assuming they’re impervious to bias or propaganda themselves. A lot of Westerners have replaced actually being objective and looking at both sides with their belief that their education/society embraces dissent. Just because you were taught that your society promotes free thinking does not automatically mean you or any one person actually thinks freely. A lot of Western self-righteous arrogance and infalliabilty is built upon this critical assumption.
Anyway, regardless of whether French people are familiar with the contents of all of Hugo’s writings, it is embarrassing for a French person to genuinely be shocked when confronted with the notion that his country’s “precious” museum artifacts WEREN’T all warmly gifted to the French by their origin countries. That’s like an American saying the Native Americans bowed before them on Plymouth Rock and said: “Here, take our land, oh civilized ones!”
People are brainwashed in France, as well as in the rest of the world.
All media operates on a set of biases, which mainly go unchallenged.
One of those biases in the Western media is that Tibet is oppressed by the evil Communist government in China.
This idea is unchallenged, and the majority of Westerns do not have easy access to information contradicting it.
Therefore, all Westerners are brainwashed on this topic.
Quite a simple proof.
In the West one can go to almost any book store and find books, newspapers, and magazines with views that support various sides of this issue and have histories written from different persepctives. The the West even if the mainstream media seems biased on an issue, one still has access to info from all sides. China does NOT have that. So, Westerners are brainwashed if they let themselves be, and many choose not to be, Chinese often have no choice on the matter.
What’s the difference between choosing to be brainwashed and not having that choice? Surely, with all the opportunities in the West, it is a sad sign that Westerners are so brainwashed, no?
By your logic, we should be far more critical of Westerners than Chinese.
Um, I’d like to ask: how can we ever know if someone is indulging in the fine art of free-thinking or not?
As far as ‘arrogant’ and ‘infallible’ westerners go, and what we can concretely know about China vs West on this topic: the west holds dearly a system of government that encourages free thinking, China doesn’t. Western media permits opposing and alternative viewpoints, on the other hand, Chinese media is heavily censored to tow the party line. The Chinese gov’t monitors or has a hand in all NGO’s, trade unions, and religious bodies (depending on their ‘threat level’), the west doesn’t.
By these examples I would say Western society encourages free-thinking more than Chinese. And I don’t think it would be wrong for a westerner to consider themselves superior to the extent that their societies’ are significantly more liberal.
By the way, I used objectivity, reason, logic, blah blah, blah to derive these conclusions. I left my lonely cave for the very first time today, saw this site and these comments, and felt the urge to present my impartial views. Thankyou.
Admittedly I wouldn’t know what a non-free thinking Chinese person would look like, but I at least know the views they would have (it would be along party lines), the variety of views in the west, with no official line to follow, makes me wonder exactly what a non-free-thinking westerner would actually look like?
(For the record, I don’t think it’s fair to attribute the word brainwashing to anyone outside of a totalitarian state, I don’t see westerners or Chinese having their cataracts removed by western doctors, only to weep and sing praises over an image of the ‘Dear Leader’, a la North Korea; now THAT’S brainwashing. )
I was justing making an observation, not a judegment.
Obviously those people who have access to the facts but still ignore them are the worst. The fact that the West does have access to all the facts does mean more people will be well informed, though many will still choose not to be, does it not? Do Chinese people have easy, everyday access to information from all sides on the issues? If they read English, have money and no how to get around the Great Chinese Firewall, then maybe, but otherwise, no. When most people do not have access to the facts of important issues, how can their arguments be taken as anything more than recycled retoric?
scrap that about trade unions, I hear some western countries are a little techy when it comes to workers rights…
And Mike fish, as above, how can one know if someone has adequately mulled over all available resources enough for them to have indulged in the art of free-thinking? HOw much research/contemplation etc must they doe and how do we know if they’ve done it?
If someone holds a particular viewpoint, it’s likely the opposing view will have a number of reasonable arguments in its defence, who is the free-thinker and who isn’t?
Coppice, you make a good point about asking when can anyone know when someone else is “indulging” in the art of free thinking or not.
Then you proceed to ASSUME that Westerners do simply because their environment is, on a number of fronts most people agree to, more conducive to dissent and plurality of opinion. Just because an environment makes an option available does not automatically mean the people in that environment exemplify that option. When you get down to it, this is a classic logic error.
That’s why I’ve said that any opinion must be judged by its merits, not by where that opinion comes from. If you have taken any introductory rhetoric class, you will agree with what I am saying. We all know it is common to judge a statement by who says it, involving our judgements about that person’s background, character, etc., but ultimtely such judgements tell usmore about our preconceptions and biases than the de facto validity of the opinion made.
Feeling that one thing is superior to another is not inherently wrong. However, using that feeling about one thing to justify OVERALL contempt is.
I forgot to add:
Personally, I find a Chinese person who exhibits free-thinking to be more admirable than a Westerner who does and obviously far more than a Westerner who doesn’t. While not THAT difficult, we DO accept that access to dissenting opinions and sources of information is indeed more difficult in China than many Western countries with governments that do not manage information as tightly as the Chinese government does. As a result, this Chinese very likely has overcome taller obstacles than his Western counterpart to achieve such self-determined lucid thinking/expression.
Like Chris said above, I do think it is a bigger tragedy to see a Westerner who has much easier access to different perspectives and views yet come across as close-minded to me. Most aggravating of all, whether Chinese or Westerner, are those who are close-minded yet aren’t afraid to open their mouths to negatively influence those around them. They are no different than the hyper-nationalistic Chinese fenqing who incite other idiotic Chinese fenqing into a mob ready to go harass anyone who steps out of a Carrefour.
Coppice, interesting question.
IMHO, free-thinkers are those who don’t think they are freer in thinking than others. Otherwise he is a believer not a free-thinker. And he thinks that the degree of freedom of his thinking is limited by how many thinkers he has learnt from instead of how much facts he has access to. In this sense, there’s no free-thinking at all and thinkers can not be measured by how ‘free’ they think but how much they don’t know.
I just can’t trust your opinion on the quality of this pizza if it’s the only friggin pizza you’ve ever had! Even if it is the best damn pizza ever.
@ Mike Fish:
Heh, let’s run with that analogy:
West:
The Westerner is in a pizza parlour with 20 different pies to choose from, ranging from the mundane to the strange.
China:
The Chinese is in a pizza parlour with 3 different pies to choose from: Cheese, Extra Cheese, Super Extra Cheese Deluxe. Now, all three are kinda different but still fairly similar. There’s a big security guard, you know, a towering guy with really broad shoulders, standing next to him, blocking his view of the pizza parlour with 20 different pizzas across the street, but if the Chinese guy tip-toed, he could catch a glimpse and if he’s nimble, he can get around the guard, cross the street, and sample whatever he wants over there.
What next?
A Westerner in his pizza parlour may have the option to try every type of pizza, but that doesn’t mean he does. He may have always just stuck with Cheese, maybe tried Pepperoni once or twice. The rest, he’s never touched let alone tasted, and doesn’t even bother. He knows what he likes and sticks with it.
That Westerner cannot walk into the Chinese pizza parlour and say to the Chinese person, “I’m a better judge of pizza than you are because my pizza parlour has more pizzas than you, even though I’ve never tasted 18 of them. However, just because I CAN taste 18 of them whereas you’d have to get around this security guard over here, I am AUTOMATICALLY a more enlightened pizza eater.”
People can judge each other’s opinions based upon the sophistication of their views and arguments. We can’t automatically assume Westerners have “better” views and arguments just because the country they come from allows people more information. It is one thing to have more information at your disposal, and another to actually go seek, digest, and incorporate that information into your position.
A lot of the arguments made by “Westerners” here show me they’re fans of Cheese pizza, but they couldn’t describe the quality of those other 19 pies with any amount of familiarity to warrant my trust in their opinion. They may know they have 19 other pies to try, but because they’ve never really tried them, their descriptions of those pies are utterly lacking and unconvincing. How can I trust their opinion versus trusting the opinion of another Westerner who has tried those other 19 pies or even of the other Chinese guy who has outwitted the security guard, slipped over to the Western pizza parlour, and managed to try 8 different slices before running out of money?
Kai… a different world of pizza where it isn’t assumed people are taking their wonderous variety of pizza for granted.
Place A… one pizza parlor.
Place B… twenty pizza parlors.
Person from Place A, having only ever sampled pizza from his home’s one pizza place visits a new pizza parlor and proclaims its pizza the best ever. Is it the best? Maybe. How does he know though? Is he just regurgitating the pizza review from the local rag?
Person from Place B, having sampled pizza from numerous pizza parlors, visits a new pizza parlor and proclaims its pizza the best ever. I’m more inclined to trust him. Granted he might be a retard with taste bud defects and is also simply parroting the local pizza review. However, it is more likely that he is just more experienced and more knowledgeable about pizza.
I’m getting hungry. Time for lunch!
Heh, Mike, both of our pizza analogies aren’t perfect, and I trust we’re both smart enough to understand that different elements of our analogies probably represent different things and we generally “get” each other’s point.
My point, when applied to your analogy, is that Person B from Place B may not have actually sampled pizza from numerous pizza places, despite our assumption that he has simply because he has access to them all.
Likewise, it is entirely possible for a Chinese person to have encountered more perspectives from the foreigners he’s met in China than an American who was surrounded by like-minded Americans his entire life despite the fact that America is supposed to be a wonderful multiethnic melting pot. It is further entirely possible that a Chinese person who has NEVER encountered other perspectives in his life to actually be more tolerant and free-thinking than a foreigner who has constantly encountered other perspectives but has stubbornly rejected all opinions contrary to his own. We sometimes say religious people are like the latter.
Ultimately, again, I trust you agree that the fairest and most proper way to evaluate an opinion is on its own merits, not by who utters that opinion. We judge opinions by who utters them as a shortcut, but taking shortcuts isn’t always the right thing to do.
Agreed?
Yes, I agree, the pizza should be based on its own merits.
Just to make clear that my only real point here is that westerners are more likely to practice free thought than Chinese and you have answered it yourself:
“While not THAT difficult, we DO accept that access to dissenting opinions and sources of information is indeed more difficult in China than many Western countries with governments that do not manage information as tightly as the Chinese government does. As a result, this Chinese very likely has overcome taller obstacles than his Western counterpart to achieve such self-determined lucid thinking/expression.”
If control of information is the reason why it is more difficult for “self-determined lucid
thinking/expression”, it follows that when these controls are removed, that is, when a more liberal society or environment ‘conducive to dissent or plurality of opinion’, emerges, free-thought is easier and thus likely to be more widespread.
Concerning your rhetoric comment, of course that is applicable to exactly how valuable one determines a particular position, or to put it more simply, whether you think ‘west is best’ or not, however, I don’t see its relevance concerning whether or not a Chinese or Westerner is more likely to practice free-thought.
It is certainly not a logical fallacy but quite a reasonable inference to conclude that in a more liberal environment, the individuals are more likely to be more liberal in thought, precisely because they are given more options rather than prescribed specific positions due to certain pressures, and NEED to make a personal, individual choice before they can even be said to hold a position in the first place. In such an environment it is my understanding that an individual will not, cannot, point blindly at those options where he is free to make a choice, he is more likely to look at the choices, surely. He may be unable to cast off religion due to indoctrination or cultural tradition/norms etc, but he may be more ‘open’ (double entendre anyone?) to taking anal sex. *ahem*. Where, for whatever reason, there are more restrictions placed on the freedom to make a choice (which themselves are lacking) in a society, then a truly free choice is less likely to be made. Is that so fallacious?
Again, I’ll repeat that unlike Mike Fish, I didn’t comment on the superiority of the products, values, or ideas that emerge from such an environment, of course they can only be judged on their individual merits. I am not justifying overall contempt at all.
In essence, however, we seem to agree. The Chinese are less likely to practice free-thought than westerners, and this, (you seem to both acknowledge and deny), is due to their specific environments.
Heh, nice answer USTCer.
Although I think we can identify societies that might be more likely to produce free-thinking indviduals. We can never know if a particular individual has come to their conclusions by having used this fabled method of free-thinking.
And even if we somehow conclude someone has thought freely, they will not necessarily come to the same conclusions as us, who have used free-thinking as well. As you point out, the term free-thinknig is a little bit dubious becasue its products are never consistent amongst individuals. Unless we’re God, there will always be limits and influences that lead us to conclude a specific position has merit.
It is silly to point at someone and say ‘I’m more free thinking than you are’, exactly.
Coppice, I want to make this very clear because it is important: I am not simultaneously acknowledging or denying anything whatsoever.
By virtue of having more access to a pluraility of information and perspectives, a Westerner OUGHT to practice free-thought more than a Chinese person who has less access.
He OUGHT to.
But that doesn’t mean he does.
That’s my point.
When you encounter a Westerner who doesn’t, you shouldn’t, for a moment, excuse him for his lack of free-thought just because he comes from a place where he OUGHT to practice free-thought by virtue of having more access to a diversity of information.
Each person necessarily must be judged by the merit of what he himself puts forth.
If I took two anonymous people, one Westerner and one Chinese, neither of which have done anything or said anything, I may certainly SUGGEST that the Westerner MAY be more free-thinking THAN the Chinese and reference the rationalizations we’ve both made here. This doesn’t mean the Westerner is DEFINITELY more free-thinking and the Chinese less so, it just means that is our educated GUESS.
The moment they open their mouths, we have data to evaluate. It may turn out that the Chinese person is actually more free-thinking than the Westerner, right?
So again, my point is that we do not automatically hold a Westerner in higher esteem, give him a free pass, or make excuses for him when he has given us cause to judge him not by the demographic he belongs to but by the very words and thoughts he has communicated.
I most certainly think Westerners ought to be more free-thinking or even “enlightened” and “tolerant” than Chinese people. However, I meet A LOT who are not, and I’m not afraid to take them to task for it, especially if they’re self-righteously and arrogantly lording their presumed superiority over another race/nationality.
Kai, I understand your view, and clearly I suggest that on the whole your average westerner is more likely to be free-thinking than the average Chinese, precisely because those conditions both make it easy for him and in many respects demand it of him etc etc (my other post already attempts to argue this.)
However, you say you don’t acknowledge or deny this, you are interested in what we think a westerner ought to behave like. And I tend to agree with your views here. An individual westerner will not necessarily be more free-thinking than a Chinese counterpart, though he ought to be, and there is certainly no excuse for the westerner, for he simply doesn’t have the obstacles a Chinese individual has.
But then I wonder if the expression ‘free-thinking’ is rightly used here. As it is nigh on impossible, if the person presents a coherent argument, to tell exactly whether or not they are freely thinking. Perhaps it makes more sense to take an UNREASONABLE westerner to task. Not everyone will reach the same conclusions; if you judge the merits of a westerner’s position (or anyone’s for that matter) to be poor then it would be more accurate to stick to criticising the merit of their argument, without adding the claim that they lack free-thought. Even if they are lacking, how can you know?
Well, regardless of what you want to call someone you disagree with, keep up the ‘good fight’! (though I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that ;) )
Hey Coppice, yes, you’re absolutely right that we can actually argue “what is free thinking” ad nauseum and I took it as implicit that it is necessarily subjective. If someone feels another person is not “thinking freely,” it is up to that person to explain and convince observers to agree with him. It can be easier or harder to do so depending on both the persuasiveness of that person’s arguments and the proclivity of the observers to believe him.
For example, a lot of people here immediately claimed this story was fake. A lot of people immediately agreed. Some of the reasons offered included shaky arguments about how unlikely it is for a young Chinese girl to be trilingual, or for flight attendants to wear pins. I personally felt these reasons were far from persuasive, but many others took them and said, “yeah, see!” I think it is highly probable that many people agreed that this was fake NOT because the arguments given were that persuasive but because they themselves were inclined and predisposed to rejecting the implications of this story. This story MAY have made them feel uncomfortable or indignant that a Chinese person dares to be uppity with them or dares to generalize Frence people, whatever, and they wanted excuses to dismiss it.
I’m not saying everyone’s behavior or mental process was like this, but its worth some consideration because the reactions I saw weren’t so different from Chinese hyper-nationalists immediately rejecting and counter-smearing anything “foreigners” or “Westerners” have said or written that put them on the defensive.
Coppice, upon review of the discussions and debates I’ve been having with various commenters on this post, would you say I’m MORE accusing Westerners of not being free-thinking or of not being reasonable?
I think, for example, my argument with Rick in China has consistently been about me explaining why his certainty on the his reasons for this story being fake was unreasonable. I grant, however, that I’ve implied that many Westerners are not exercising free-thinking but rather easily resorting to biased, prejudiced, and racist dismissals of anything Chinese. I do try to explain very thoroughly my reasons for such implications though.
I appreciate and respect the sophistication and civility of the thoughts and questions you have brought up. I suspect we may be quite similar in how we evaluate arguments, and even how we poke holes in them. Cheers.
What is it with this them and us attitude. If people act like idiots ,just smile turn around and start looking for someone more intelligent. Life is too short to waste your time on imbeciles.
Sounds like a good story. A tale…a yarn if you will.
The Frenchy was not entirely wrong but in typical French fashion he has totally gone about it in a wrong way…namely obnoxiously.
This LZ is also a tard… AND I am so heartened by the fact that several Chinese called her on the ‘circumstances’ of her lifestyle, and how they could coincide with her naivety.
The story is FAKE
The young lady says she could understand what the French were saying (even though they were probably speaking fast) and was able to have a conversation with the flight attendant in English (even though the attendant was also Chinese)
Give me a break….. how many Chinese “young ladies” are tri-lingual?
China only has the victim card to play, that’s why the stories get more and more fantastic! The truth is, they want no criticism whatsoever, so they can do even more dastardly things to their own people and those around them.
WTF? Are you seriously basing your entire judgement of this piece on your disbelief that Chinese “young ladies” are unlikely to be tri-lingual?
How do you know she’s not an ethnic Chinese person who has grown up in France and, like many immigrants in France, has kept her mother tongue (Chinese) while learning fluent French in school along with other languages such as English. IIRC, Europeans are often held up as a great example of multilingualism. What kind of asanine comment is this?
Kai,
It is almost impossible that this story is true. What’s the chances of all these things happening in the same time:
1- Perfectly trilingual Chinese young girl (You have to be very good in a language to eavesdrop on a friends slangish conversation).
2- Chinese wearing China flag in American airline, and French guy mistaking her for a Japanese (!! note *French*, *Japanese*, wink wink, only the devil is missing to complete this story.)
3- French people who travel to Asia (ie. not bumpkins) publicly discriminating against Chinese girls. I have yet to see this, all the French I know are very conscious of PC and they wouldn’t pull a show like that in public.
I can continue counting, but right now we are already at 1/1,000,000,000,000 chances against, sincerely do you need more?
Skimming a bit through the text, I just see some lines: “Americans have good mouth odour, French stink” “French have wanton behaviour”, etc. Jesus, what am I doing wasting my time with this load of BS, it is not even clever!
1. What makes you think she is “perfectly trilingual?” She doesn’t say much about eavesdropping other than it helped her determine that they were tourists on their way home. You don’t even need to understand all that much French to guess at that depending on what they were chatting about and combining it other cues like the fact they’re on a plane from somewhere else going back to France. It appears the argument was in English. Why can’t a Chinese person have functional Chinese, French, and English fluency? I know a lot of French-Chinese who do. I know a lot of French who have functional fluency in a combination of French, English, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. I think this is the LAMEST point used to argue that this is fake. There are SO many better arguments.
2. LoL, right, as I’ve said elsewhere, there are some suspiciously conveniently elements. That said, I still do not think it is utterly inconceivable for a Chinese flight attendant to wear a small Chinese flag on her uniform. I don’t find it implausible that the French guy could have missed a small pin, especially if he was enraptured by what he assumed to be a Japanese beauty. Maybe he was looking at her face or ass so much he didn’t notice a small pin. Did none of you see the American flag just about EVERYWHERE on just about EVERYONE after 9/11? I think there probably are rules about wearing pins for flight attendants. I also think its conceivable that she could be breaking/bending those rules and either no one noticed or no one thought it wise to enforce those rules so long as the pin is not functionally intrusive on her work duties. An American airline should certainly be conscious of what bothersome statements it’d be making if it made a big fuss forbidding a small, even possibly barely noticable, flag pin on an ethnic Chinese flight attendant in the big year of China’s Olympics. Think about it.
3. The story doesn’t say where they are flying FROM, only that they’re flying TO France. If anything, the Chinese flight attendant the Chinese girl was talking to referenced an 8 hour flight between America and France.
It isn’t wise to skim and then make arguments based on assumptions of details inconsistent or unsupported by the text you skimmed. Come on, Uln, you’re better than this. I read and liked your China blog credibility post. I know you’re capable of putting together a much more convincing and airtight case than this.
P.S. – I have NO idea where the “Americans have good mouth odor or personal hygeine” comes from. That said, I’ve heard stranger generalizations from Chinese people. Haven’t you?
LOL，I guess I could do better, but I feel a bit stupid wasting my time with that text. I mean, even if it were true (which I seriously doubt), the story in itself is just a bunch of stereotypes and cues to excite patriotic spirits. So thanks to CSmack for sharing,it was cool to read the comments and get a quick general impression. But I can’t justify spending more than 10min with this. BTW, I am amazed at how active you are writing on the internet, you must be a highly effective person. (no sarcasm intended)
LoL, yes, when something fascinates me, it is very easy for me to set aside a lot of other things to participate. Fortunately, my work gives me a lot of flexibility. Now, I hate to give everyone here false hope, but once we reboot CNR, I should waste far less time replying here and far more time posting over there.
In fact, I’m quite aware of how much time I waste engaging in these comment-based debates/arguments, and I laughed when Kaiser Kuo said to me “you’re pretty confrontational” two weekends ago at the SXSW Shanghai event. I think my legal education background predisposes me to being argumentative but, in addition to that, I think there’s also a certain naive idealism that afflicts younger people but erodes with age. I haven’t aged enough to be fully rid of that idealism but I’m sure it’ll happen eventually as, believe it or not, I’m far less active with writing on the internet now than I was when I was even younger.
As a blogger yourself, you’re intimately aware that people who bother to comment/blog/write are not your average person in this world. Even within writers, there are degrees of difference. You wouldn’t equate your cmmenters and trolls on Chinayouren with the commenters on YouTube would you?
I don’t think that this story is true, although I suspect that it has some elements of truth.
However…..
The concept of tri-lingual Chinese **who are travelling overseas** is perfectly acceptable.
In my university classes there was a significant proportion of students who were good enough to qualify as bi-lingual, and this was in two universities out in the sticks.
Several of those students were also very competent in the 2nd language that they were studying – often Japanese.
It is entirely possible, therefore, that a young Chinese person travelling overseas (for what reason?) should be tri-lingual, at least.
I don’t know about tri-lingualism being a barrier, but the story simply doesn’t ring true given modern air travel – flight attendants don’t wear flags (and Chinese flag pins are hard to come by – I’ve never seen one), Chinese-Americans almost never wear such symbols, flight attendants don’t chat with passengers more than necessary, flight attendants don’t criticise other passengers, loud arguments are not allowed on board flights, French hygeine/manners can in no way be said to be worse compared to Chinese. In fact, the original commenters are bang on the money – this is a fabrication.
Also, if you want “balanced media” a good step is to stop pirating it!
Uh, the silver lining to pirating is that it shows that the Chinese are keen to get their hands on media that their government doesn’t allow them. Modern Chinese are more keenly aware of how their government changes, cuts, censors, etc. the media they consume, and proactively go out to actually seek the original versions. Small comfort, but this pursuit of the “truth” or the “original” is a good step towards eventually moving beyond piracy and valuing authenticity.
This silly story is so obviously a complete and utter lie. The poor little Chinese girl abused by the arrogant and rude foreign travelers!
Well mannered Chinese people on a airplane, that is just too silly to even imagine.
I was thinking the same thing – the young lady outraged that the rude frnechman opened the blind on the window! And that the Chinese stewardess, who of course was identified by a flag pin (yeah right) happily told her all about the evil French passengers. She obviuosly never got on a plane with any of her countrymen did she? I’ve seen plenty more Chinese screaming at the stewardesses, spitting (on the plane) and carrying on like nobs than westerners on my flights.
its sad to think people would believe this… and so what if it’s true… it does not mean all french people are rude towards Chinese.
get a life
^ True enough! Hahaha!!
The Chinese are the most ill-mannered people on airplanes.
The fact that ~90% of the Chinese respondents take this to be a true story is pretty remarkable. Sadly it seems like the average mainlander doesn’t care about the truth, he just wants rhetoric and fairy tales to back up the prejudices that were instilled in him from birth. Chinese nationalists won’t be taken seriously in the West until they producing this sort of transparent bullshit.
Except that it wasn’t 90%, it was more like 60%, maybe less – the rest saw through it. Chinese people aren’t stupid, they know how unlikely this story is.
Even if the story above is a fake, she aint too far off from what probably would of happened.
Please, we all know 90 percent of the French in China are a bunch of bummy ass snobs trying to live a pretentious lifestyle in a 3rd world country, working a job they could never dream of having back in France because they are highly unqualified for their current position. What does the French do best, they export ” snob-ism “. If you ever end up at a place with ” free drinks ” u will notice two things, a bunch of Americans, cause they are brokeass right now, and a bunch of French, cause they are cheap. lol That’s just how the French roll, cheap arrogant and annoying. Not all, but majority of the ones in China, yes, because this f’d up society here has allowed their ego’s to run rampant. Being that I have been involved with the service industry for awhile during my time here in China, I will honestly say that 97 percent of our stupid annoying arrogant self centered and dumb complaints come from the French.
Why so much fury? It’s all because that the gvt is trying to misdirect people’s anger towards some foreign country so they won’t focus on domestic issues such as corruption and economy crisis. First Japan, then Korea, and now the poor French.
If someone tells me that he doesnt like China or Chinese people, I’d ask him why, and probably find out that we share the same points of view.
I totally agree with the first Chinese comment: clearly wu mao dang !
Well, since last spring, there is a very simple and good way to expand dramatically the number of viewers on your blog: just write a short piece of France bashing, and if it is well done (I mean very excessive, with all the clichés you can find on French people like hygiene etc. No need to be credible), you are pretty sure that Sina will put it on its front page, then Bingo!
Few months ago, an article on why French ladies don’t shave their legs had this kind of success… Great… We live in a beautiful world!
The French guy had a point about not closing the window shutter. I hate blocking out natural light on daytime flights back to Europe. If it’s overnight, fine. Why plunge yourself in darkness, it’s grim.
I have been on long distance flights and there always drunken dickheads on the flight who can’t control their alcohol or their sad sob behavior. Europeans are getting fatter on the planes as well as their Euros are still worth a little more than dollars these days. So they feel like they can act arrogant and cheeky.
It is no different than a pommie going to Spain or other Euro countries to get wasted and appear on the UK news back home.
There are foreigners who behave badly on planes and on tourist destinations because they think they are king and thump their nose at locals. T
Wealthy Chinese’s’ sons and daughters of corrupt officials and newly rich travelling broad wants to act like little prince and princesses as they do in China, when no body pays slight notice to them, it is normal to scream anti-Western slogans. If you hate the west so much, stop copying everything from the West.
“Well mannered Chinese people on a airplane…blah…blah…blah”
What? And this is not racist? I saw this sentiment expressed a few times in the comments. If people wish to view Chinese people as one, then allow us to have our pride as one. Stop with the hypocrisy of criticizing our nationalism and group mentality while at the same time categorize as if Chinese people are all the same.
what do you think the point of this article was?
the french suck blah blah blah
good point Hammy.
I’m glad someone other than myself noticed.
ok I’m sorry…..
MANY Chinese people are ill-mannered on airplanes.
Better?
Fake. However, it remains real and perpetuate with credibility as long as the majority do not question this ’story’. That aside, its rather obvious that the girl has just as much arrogance as the French and truth be told China constantly plays the victim card. Also, it’s tiring to see individuals who usually don’t give two rats ass about each other all of a sudden say ‘we Chinese’ in every sentence (selective individualism I suppose). Majority of Chinese don’t have confidence, if they did they would just brush things off the shoulder but instead they choose to defend every comment (big or small) and thus re-enforcing themselves as ‘victims’. Also, Nationalism=emotion + ego= Not a smart choice of diplomacy.
Generalizations and bigotry are for simpletons.
hahahahah…lets admit it, french are arrogant,
chinese takes everything too seriously,
French needs to take that rod out of their rear, and chinese needs to smoke some weeeeed.
Done.
Yeah… and how’d they drag this up… sitting around and suddenly… damn, we haven’t bashed the French in a while!
Let’s make this a list of posts of stereotypes…
I heard that French people like to eat frogs so that’s why we call them Frogs!!! hahaha… FROGS!
I heard that we call Chinese people Chinks cause they talk all funny like… chingchangchong! hahaha… Chinks!
REALLY??? Lesson learned!
So what are people that likes to eat fish? Fucked up druggies with no taste in music? Perverted creeps?
SirBi… what does your comment mean? Please explain. I was making fun of steroetypes because they are ridiculous.
Hahah, James pretty much hit the nail on the head there.
French, however, are the only people I know who would, while LIVING IN CHINA and speaking NO CHINESE AT ALL, have the gall to criticize the FRENCH of Chinese people for not being good enough.
Why did Fauna add a photo of a Tibetan Chinese stealing the flame from a Han Chinese to illustrate this article? (photo which is not in the original mop article)?
I think it’s because of the line preceeding it:
The picture doesn’t have much to do with the entire post overall but I warrant it illustrates that line. This post needs more pictures of a French guy and Chinese girl yelling at each other on a plane. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how easy it is to find pictures of that on Google Image Search. Heh.
Don’t you find it ironic that the story talks about french stealing artifacts shortly after the nonsense about the bronze heads, and specifically mentions summer palace, yet claims to have taken place shortly after the torch issues in france – don’t you find it a *little curious* that they try to include every aspect of recent french issues into this nonsensical dramatization of “Oh poor little chinese girl, that big french bully victimized you once again”?
Yeah, I did, and also why I found it really amusing but reassuring that the first comment translated was “When did the 5 Mao start writing novels?” I thought that was awesome.
Personally, I didn’t think it sounded remotely like “victimizing.” It sounded more like smearing the French for being arrogant, self-righteous hypocrites. I’m fine with suspecting it to be a fabrication, as the references in the story seem a bit convenient, but I really do not see the components themselves to be “nonsense” as you’re insisting. Perhaps you’ve just never heard of non-Chinese saying these or similar things before to the Chinese?
I’m not arguing and haven’t argued that this story is definitely true. I’m saying that the things that happened in this story are entirely conceivable, especially since I’ve personally seen and heard so many similar exchanges without needing some anonymous Chinese forum post to tell me so. What do you think?
How many French people have you ever met ?
I don’t see how you can not see it as victimizing, when the little girl is portrayed as standing up to a savage man in a group of other friends while she’s alone against them all, fighting her little heart out, ending up crying after she feels she has made valid points in a failed attempt at besting someone who is so evil and ignorant in his bullying fashion. It’s victimizing. It’s also, as you put it, a smear.
I’m not implying there aren’t many ignorant assholes out there, from every country. I’m saying this *particular story* seems to have too many questionables and inconsistencies to make it feasible, in my mind, to be accurate in how it is written.
@ petit bonheur:
Actually, quite a lot. I have some good friends who are French and we’ve had awesome times together I’ll remember for the rest of my life. That said, I don’t see why this is relevant.
@ Rick in China:
Maybe I’ve seen better victimization pieces? Even so, is my personal characterization of this being a possible smear piece at odds with your overal sentiment? Shouldn’t you be rejoicing that I agree that this piece can be interpreted and suspected as a Chinese propagandist piece meant to cast an unfavorable light on the French?
That’s fine and I’ve already said I’m skeptical like you are. I just don’t think some of the elements you consider questionable or inconsistent to be as questionable or inconsistent as you think they are. What’s wrong with that?
Good point, I had simply assumed that it happened recently, but you are quite correct.
First of all,
French people are arrogant to most people of the world. Not just Chinese!
Second, this is a typical story to stir up Chinese Nationalism. Another story on how Chinese are shamed by foreigners.
Plain and simple, this is about two cultures clashing, and two people who just don’t know how to swallow what little pride is inside of them, and compromise.
Shame on both of you.
Dear Fauna,
I sent you an email. It seems your email server is not functioning well. Could you please take a look? Hope you can read this comment.
Best regards,
Yi
Shorter Meimei:
“I met a French jackass on a plane who made unfair generalizations and stereotypes about Chinese people, so I made unfair generalizations and stereotypes about French people. Aren’t I special? Vive la Chine!”
seems fake to me, it’s just too coincident to have all the talk points in one conversation. I’ve seen too many fairy tales made by conspiracy theorists, either Chinese or foreigners, to incite sympathy or hatred amongst the ignorant mass.
And what’s the torch relay photo doing up there?
To all of the foreigners who are bashing China? Why do you have so much interest in China to be reading these kinds of sites? BTW: I am pro-Vietnam and all of the African countries that were colonized by the French.
I like your ding dong ChinaBounder!
Chinabounder, most of France is now crying after that super harsh comment you just made supporting their ex-colonies. Shows how little you know those places, especially it seems Vietnam. Most of France’s former colonies are the places that love, and even hate, France the most.
Some people might be soley interested in China for the easy bashing.
The girl said about self-confidence, and in the end she cried.
Duh.
There was a good article I read about some of the roots that have lead to mob killings and the genocides that have taken place. A lot of them have to do with inciting some anger by planting a seed (such as this article) and suddenly people are murdering others that would have otherwise just been friends.
China is horrible and a bigot country of unspiritual misguided slaves. They call everyone else slaves, as if they are a country of no law and goverment, when they are the most tightly controlled population on the planet. Every human being is under a form of control, and China is THE TOP political AND humanitary offender. Taunt a US surveillance ship in international waters and call it illegal? Oh… booooooo hoooooo you haven’t had time yet to infiltrate the American government more so you can steal their technology on how to do that AS WELL! Every “modern” military technology has and a stolen direct or indirect derivative of American military technology. Whatever the path is towards peace, China’s government most certainly is not propelling in the positive direction. Suck it China. These pitiful chinese people that try to be patriots are protecting what? Their spies in the US? Their secret nuclear naval bases? Their glories ALL derived from Americans buying their poor labor practices? Heck, if they treated their people right, that labor would have stayed on this side of the ocean. But no, the chinese use the excuse of “american greed” as why its okay that they treat their own people that way, so that those very chinese can learn to hate the US instead of their government for their working conditions. And any chinese that moved beyond labor is just bought off by the commies with a nice life, a life as manufactured as the ones they made for the American foreign exchange students in the 1970’s. China is a joke as a government, and now they are pissed because the US has Obama, and Obama will do everything China wanted, but respectfully and with an honest majority. Too bad so many in the US have had their mind turned to goo because the conservative wackos made it seem like true democracy was some kind of red commie china disgrace.
this woman on the plane claims people don’t know her country. what a joke. we know your country like the world knew the bush administration’s inner workings. a black box of evil, all too obvious by the crap nonsense that comes out of it.
Negative stereotypes of Chinese = bad.
Negative stereotypes of French = good.
Amazing how blind some people are.
oh man when i read this my brain wants to throw up. its like the stories you hear in highschool.
the storyteller always calm and considerate and the oposing party a complete redneck.
chinese people cant deal with critique, they are worse then children.
the girl on the plane was a stiff, selfrigteous bitch.
offended by nothing and making a big deal out of a fly.
by the way, the reaction of some in China to this whole spat with France has a certain ‘jilted lover’ aspect to it. France was supposed to be the “good” Western country (much better than the horrible USA). But I guess it turns out that it really always was a CCTV myth that the rest of the world has such a positive view of the CCP and its policies (in Tibet and elsewhere).
I don’t know why it is so shocking to learn that most of the planet has a low opinion of the Chinese government. But I guess the inability of many to distinguish their country from their government is the root cause of a lot of this.
“She said that amongst her work assignments, the France route gives her the most headaches because the passengers are too wanton, do not listen to the flight attendants, continue to walk around when the fasten seat belt light is on, that it is common for them to ask for 4-5 things each time they want something”
is this a fukin joke?
the chinese are internationally the most hated flight passangers. every stewardess i know sais it.
I think it was singapore airlines who issued an open letter to the chinese government about this.
When you can’t genuinely, publicly criticize your own country, its government, leadership, history, or culture, you focus all your pent up frustration and criticism on foreigners.
That’s kinda true but kinda not, especially given the black and white oversimplification. One fo the great things chinaSMACK shows is that there are actually a lot of popular criticism of the country, government, leadership, history, and even culture amongst netizens in China. Acutally, it really isn’t that different from sentiments elsewhere in the world. The extremes tend to be the most vocal, often drowning out or turning off those in the middle. Just think of the political rhetoric that gets the most play and outrage in American politics or any place’s politics.
I’m not just commenting on China, my previous comment made no mention of a specific country.
Problem is almost all of netizens’ criticism is basically anonymous. Internet based critique and opinion also usually aren’t taken seriously anywhere. Some bloggers are being recognized for their contributions, but most “real” “serious” commentary is in print or television media. How many honest, free newspapers or tv outlets in China can you name? So, Kai, I beg to differ, the freedom of the press and the situation for self-expression in China is very different from many places around the world.
On your last point, do you think Americans lash out at Iran, Russia, or China because they can’t lash out at their own government?
I sound like a broken record but you’re right and you’re wrong. For example, we know that print media is dying and while it won’t ever fully die off, we see a serious migration to the online digital medium. ANONYMOUS internet critique and opinion are rarely taken seriously but there’s plenty of non-anonymous authorities making statements and communicating online. That’s how certain websites or online personalities are accorded more authority and credibility than others.
chinaSMACK itself is taken seriously enough to be notable precisely because it translates comments of ostensibly “genuine” but largely anonymous Chinese netizen comments.
So Mike, ask yourself what is “real” or “serious” commentary? If Jon Stewart made a funny but poignant comment on the internet, is it any less real or serious than the same comment made on TV, JUST because it wasn’t made on TV? How many Americans do you know are skeptical of Fox News or of all the financial news talking heads and shows that kept saying the economy was going to be okay right up to the point it wasn’t? I know you said “most” but I trust you understand and agree with what I’m saying.
What exactly did I say that you’re begging to differ with this response? I never said there are honest, free newspapers or TV outlets in China, did I? I simply said that the extremists tend to be the most vocal AND that there are a lot of honest, free opinions expressed on China’s internet, as shown to us by chinaSMACK, GVO, CDT, etc. Do you disagree with this?
I agree there is alot of free expression by Chinese people on the internet(there is a Chinese internet?) and even occasionally some in print, Southern Weekly for example.
“Anti-Chinese French on a Plane”… a roller coaster thrill ride of terrifying anti-Chinese french rudeness and heinous halitosis… starring Samuel L. Jackson as the little Chinese girl.
*Spolier Alert* She kills them all in amusing, ultra-violent ironic fashions followed by snappy punchlines, such as jamming the frog leg dinner down the one dude’s throat and saying “now you croaked” or tossing one French baddie out the plane door and him getting impaled on the Eifel Tower and saying “Vive la… FUCK YOU… France” or ripping off one of the dude’s heads and saying “Auction this!”
LOL! See, we actually need more witty comments like this.
“C’est la vie” as we say :-)
I wish all the comments in this post could be retro-injected in the orignal Chinese website. Would be interesting to see the netizen reaction for sure.
If that happened, I’d actually be afraid of the Chinese suddenly banding together, discarding their own genuine skepticism of this piece, and instead patriotically opposing the foreigners who dare be skeptical and critical of what is ostensibly something written by a Chinese person about Chinese people being discriminated against.
Then again, I rarely see any non-Chinese person bothering to engage in discourse or debate with the Chinese, whereas I’ve seen far more Chinese bravely venture out of their comfort zones using a foreign language they’re not the most fluent in to express their disagreements with the very people that are criticizing them.
I wonder if Fauna would be willing to translate English comments into Chinese so more Chinese people with no English skills can understand more of what many non-Chinese people think of them, to help Chinese people see a “slice of non-Chinese life.”
Actually, I wonder if she does that already…
Kai,
The debate would not go anywhere period. The Chinese debater would not admit fault of anything. As facts are presented he / she will just get emotional and take out the victim, developing country card. Ultimately the adrenal glands opens up and creates a product called nationalism and next thing you see him / her waving a red flag the size of a Toyota Prado …..and a 5000 years of history card.
The end.
I agree, but it doesn’t mean you don’t try. My point still stands that even if they’re stunted in the “having a rational debate” category, I still see MORE Chinese people trying (if failing) to engage in discourse with non-Chinese in English than I ssee non-Chinese trying to egange in discourse with non-Chinese in Chinese. A lot of non-Chinese just confine themselves to their pockets of like-minded foreigners so they can collectively whine about the Chinese, content to conclude that they already tried but the Chinese are just too stupid and stubborn to listen to the civilized foreigner who knows better.
Harsh, right? But its quite true much of the time. How many foreigners do you know are browsing and participating on Chinese discussion forums, trying to fight the good fight in the trenches of popular opinion where it might actually matter because you’re reaching the Chinese people? Or are most of them commenting on English language blogs with their English speaking compatriots about how stupid the Chinese are?
This kind of forum for exchange between Chinese speakers and English speakers is really the cutting edge of China vs. the World cross-cultural communication. Did anyone out there think that real meaningful deep understanding would happen overnight? The whole friggin world gets America or the UK because generations and generations of every nationality have grown up there and been part of their fabric. China started to have that before the civil war, but after new China and until the last decade particpation by foreigners in China and the intimate experience and understanding that comes with it was nearly impossible. Now it is.
> Harsh, right? But its quite true much of the time. How many foreigners do you know are browsing and participating on Chinese discussion forums, trying to fight the good fight in the trenches of popular opinion where it might actually matter because you’re reaching the Chinese people?
It’s not quite the same, but that’s part of why I come here. As much as I would love to study Chinese, too, I’m already studying Japanese in my free time and I can’t find even half as much good material to study from (”Ni hao Kai-lan” doesn’t cut it). Even with some cross-over between hanzi and kanji, I don’t think I have any hope of being even marginally competent at writing Chinese in the next few years. Unlike China where English is part of their education, the only languages my school was able to offer were French and Spanish. For the record, I took French.
@ Joe #2:
Yes, of course it isn’t quite the same, but I think you understood and agree with my point.
I just think its really ironic that all these “Westerners” fashion themselves to be oh so much more enlightened and open-minded than the Chinese yet all too often their behavior and rhetoric is really not that much better than the Chinese, who at least have the excuse of being largely poor, underdeveloped, and socialized by a more manipulative government. Of course, you have people like FDLR who is both aware of and shameless with his double-standard simply because he doesn’t care. But then you have so many others who spew the same retarded arguments and racist justifications the Chinese do yet think they’re exempt simply because they’re not Chinese, grew up in the West, and hence could not possibly be accused of the same intolerance and immaturity evident in so many Chinese.
Heh, I studied French too.
Kai, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I stay away from that scene completely precisely for that reason.
You need to learn how to debate an issue without coming across as self-righteous. Chinese are more sensitive than most nationalities, but not that much more sensitive.
In the case of this article, both parties had “bravely venture out of their comfort zones using a foreign language they’re not the most fluent in to express their disagreements” since it seems they were arguing in English…
Yep, and that’s a good thing. The Chinese girl first sought solace in whining about the Fench in Chinese with the Chinese flight attendant and then the French started shouting in French after the Chinese girl said it ironic they’re flying on an American airline.
BTW, don’t get me wrong. I’m not insisting that everyone learn each other’s languages just to have opinions. My point isn’t about languages, it’s about sincerity in communication. The Chinese who venture out to argue (however awfully they do so) with Westerners they feel are being unfairly critical of China are usually doing so out of a sincerely intent to communicate. I don’t think the same can be said of most Westerners who bitch and whine about the Chinese on English blogs. Does anyone really think Westerners criticizing the Chinese on English blogs sincerely think by doing so they’re really communicating to the Chinese to help them become better?
“[...] the Chinese suddenly banding together, discarding their own genuine skepticism of this piece, and instead patriotically opposing the foreigners who dare be skeptical and critical of what is ostensibly something written by a Chinese person about Chinese people being discriminated against.”
That’s one, if not the main, reason why foreigners (especially Westerners) don’t debate with Chinese people. The Chinese don’t take criticism, and in the end it’s just boring.
Of course, i’m talking “in general”…
I was quoting Kai’s comment.
Can’t agree more with 我是你妈二爷,there lies great possibility the silly cunt fabricates the story to arouse nationalism or distract reader’s attention with detailed story.
Incidentally,if the story is true, it’s time for us to notice the children top-class of Chinese are beginning to ask for more freedom and protection worldwidely ,just as the Chinese Property Law which is been implemented last year to protect their wealth,this may be dangerous to the CCP’s govern.
China has to be great and maybe greater before all such B….S…stops ! The west (especially france) have to understand that the imperial era is over and gone. France is down the drain ! just wait and see what will China do with all the BS happening lately in France. Who will have the last laugh ???
What do you mean?
Just for you, i hope it’s France…
It sounds like self promotion to me.
The country has shed 20 million jobs, the year has numerous ‘anniversaries’, the amount of tainted capital increased many folds, there is now possible deflation due to excess to be exported products, there are more drivers with red (asshole) plates on the daily. Therefore its a no brainer they (the party) want to direct the people[s] frustration and anger onto anything but them. As for the auction, you didn’t see all this hubub when Mr. Ho from Macau purchased (unlike Cai the buzzcut defaulter) the Horse head at Sotheby did you?
To be fair, the price of the Horse head was significantly less and the auctioner didn’t make a Tibetan political statement out of the auction by using the head as blackmail. Context, buddy, context.
It doesn’t matter if it was cheaper its the principal of not buying the looted item back period. Also, the lawyers were banding together before Berge made that inappropriate remark. Chronology, buddy, chronology.
Refer to my comments in the actual bronze head auction post. I said there is a line where before that, people may be willing to solve a problem with money, but beyond that, they go with principle. What, you’ve never heard of principle giving way to pragmatism sometimes?
The expected and starting pricing for the recent two heads were announced before Berge made his statement and before there was popular opposition to buying the heads at those prices. You said there wasn’t this much hubbub surrounding the horse head, so I’m giving you the context as to why there has been more hubbub this time. You speak of chronology but did you really take it into account with your previous remark? If you did, you wouldn’t need me to point out these things such as the huge increase in price because you’d KNOW how much the horse head was acquired for PREVIOUSLY. Again, context.
Bronze horse head was acquired for $8.84 million now tell me the starting price of the rat and rabbit head then well talk…no need to mention the final price as that was not tangible.
Sure, let’s take a look at this NYT article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/world/asia/03auction.html
Emphases: LoL, awesome aside there, the NYT has its moments.
So, the pig’s head was $1 million.
The horse’s head jumped up to $8.84 million 4 years later.
Two years later, the rat and rabbit head comes out and are valued at 8-10 million EUROS (not dollars) each.
Reference:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-zodiac24
http://www.reuters.com/article/artsNews/idUSTRE51M69520090223
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/16/content_10829310.htm
Stanley Ho paid less than 10 million USD for 2 heads. Berge wanted 10 million USD for ONE head. When it came time for auction, he wanted 10-13 million USD for one head.
Cai made the winning bid at 18 million USD per head to make a statement. Not everyone agrees with it and the consequences of his statement for other Chinese, but that’s what he did.
Is this tangible enough for you?
The tragedy in all of the arguments on chinaSMACK over the bronze head was that not a single person saw fit to actually delve into the 1995 Unidroit Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Objects that both China and France agreed to.
http://www.unidroit.org/…1995culturalproperty-e.htm
Note from Fauna: I edit the link because it was making the comment too wide.
*sigh* Kai. Article 3.
Those items don’t match the previous conditions, therefor:
“(5) Notwithstanding the provisions of the preceding paragraph, any Contracting State may declare that a claim is subject to a time limitation of 75 years or such longer period as is provided in its law. A claim made in another Contracting State for restitution of a cultural object displaced from a monument, archaeological site or public collection in a Contracting State making such a declaration shall also be subject to that time limitation.”
I’ll also add to save thread that there’s a lot of recent posts identifying other good arguments as to why the whole pin thing negates the validity of this bullshit story.
LoL, gotcha, Rick.
First, I’m amused that you sighed at me, co-opting this piece of international law, pretending like you were even remotely aware of its existence, and passing it off as if your previous arguments and position were all legitimized by something I’ve pro-actively offered up to you. Rick, I’m not that stupid.
Second, there a reason why the Unidroit isn’t so popularly referenced or alluded to throughout this entire controversy, and why you should be wary of gifts from your opponent that seemingly benefit you. Had you actually read the entire piece, you would’ve noted this catch-all loop-hole:
The legalese in international law is fraught with these.
Next, you really should’ve read the next part:
Note specifically Items 1a/1b and Item 3.
This is what we call one of those limp-dick international laws that infuriate tax-payers wondering just what the hell their diplomats are actually doing because just about nothing is enforcable and everything has an WRITTEN exception or loophole.
Nonetheless, it was cute watching you go “A-hah! I got you now, Kai!” while you smugly type out “sigh.” Again, Rick, not that easy. I said it was tragic because I was just waiting for someone to fall into that trap in the previous post. I admit I was a little disappointed that so many people thought it was sufficient to just justify their positions with insults against the Chinese.
As for the issue of pins on flight attendant uniforms:
There is Aircrew Sue who cites American airlines having “strict policies” against pins. She said this was “further enforced” after 9/11, most likely because no one wanted their American flight attendant to be targeted while flying abroad.
Rick, as yourself, how can something be “further enforced” if it there is ZERO possibility for any flight attendant to have NOT obeyed those “strict policies” before?
I’m just asking you to acknowledge the very real and reasonable possibility that EVEN if there was a rule, SOMEONE may not have followed it, and that someone could be the flight attendant in this story. I’m asking you to acknowledge that there are FAR BETTER elements of this story that make it suspicious than this ONE detail.
Aside from Aircrew Sue, there was also Mick who claims to have worked for Air New Zealand and a pin was allowed.
If we want to be definitive about this, the story had to have identified the airline so we could at least consult the airline’s policies. Even after that, we still need to acknowledge that the very real possibility exists that the flight attendant may have violated “strict policies”, evaded “further enforcement”, and wore her damn China flag pin.
While we’re going for anecdotal evidence, I can also testify that I have seen plenty of USA flag pins on flight attendents even and especially post-9/11. Are you going to call me a liar?
The pin thing alone is FAR from negating the validity of this story. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to account for the possibility, even plausibility, of a proud Chinese flight attendant wearing a small China flag pin especially during the run up to the Olympics. There are good arguments for suspecting this entire story to be fake, and the pin thing isn’t one of them.
Why was the horse head significantly cheaper? They were both taken at the same time and made of the same stuff…hmm let me guess because these moron made a huge thing out of it and gave it some free press and publicity and up the ante of the original value of it.
Well played lawyers, well played China.
Have you done even cursory research into the auctioning of the zodiac bronze heads? Each time a Chinese person has bought the heads back, the next one was put up at a significantly higher price. The difference this time was it finally went high enough for interested Chinese bidders to make a statement on how ridiculous it is becoming.
It is much more complex than just thinking the price got ridiculous. There is a tide of nationalism at work a lingering feeling of past humiliation wanting to prove to the world and a current increase of economic shift which is distributing the confidence of some Chinese people and China to push its weight around more effectively. Admit it, a few years back prior to Olympics people could care less about this and the people themselves were destroying priceless places to make way for real estate and commericials (look that up on Chinadaily). Funny how they all of a sudden ‘cared’ and gave a bronze rabbit and rats ass about these things.
Yes, it is more complex, but you complicating it in the wrong ways. I’ve mentioned all this before in the other post but there is qualitatively different emotional implications between plowing your own hutongs for the Olympics and being asked to pay X millions to get back something that was stolen from you in one of your nation’s most humiliating and weakest moments. THAT is the complexity and context that would help you understand what happened, instead of the faux complexity you’re alluding to in hopes of justifying your position. As I said in the comments of that post, it is a stupid argument to say these relics belong in Western hands because the Chinese have historically destroyed their artifacts. Which society hasn’t? It’s their decision to do what they wish with their property.
The MAIN confounding issue with the bronze heads here was the confounding “line of ownership.” It’s hard to decide what is fair when Berge (rather YSL) paid good money for them. Arguments about anything else are all built on sand. Most people here have resorted to racist/nationalmistic arguments instead of actually tackling the real legal problems. Why? Because its easier to malign your opponent than to deal with the real contention.
So western society doesnt understand China and China doesnt understand western society. It’s natural, different philosophy, different family make up, different history, different medicine, different language, different culture.
Give it another hundred or 2 hundred years, when there are more Westerners who are born and live in China, who grew up in China surrounded by Chinese culture, we’ll understand each other.
Enough of this silly story
The best description of this “story” that I have heard yet: fenqing porn. Except it isn’t even as believable as porn.
Someone mentioned that this person knew the flight attendant’s nationality from a “pin” or badge.
INCORRECT
Major US airlines with crews flying blocks or routes outside the US have strict policies that political or national designations, badges, garments and other such accessories are strictly prohibited. This was further enforced post 9/11 when crew were asked to remove patriotic stickers from their overnight bags.
This is to avoid crew members being singled out in cases of terrorism, hijack or diversion to a location where individual crew members might be singled out for “special treatment”.
During cabin announcements are allowed to go as far as state the languages that the crew can speak BETWEEN THEM but not give individual names and their capabilities.
Also, it is most unlikely that a crew member would engage in any political discussion or criticism of any individual or group of people on a leg. They would be in serious trouble and the mythical young lady would more than likely be politely asked to return to her seat.
Finally, there’s absolutely no way
NO WAY A CREW MEMBER WOULD BE WEARING A BADGE OR PIN, IT MIGHT PUNCTURE THEIR’S OR SOMEONE ELSE’S LIFE JACKET IN THE EVENT OF A CFIT OR WATER LANDING.
Quote: “The young lady looked at him and then looked at the five star red flag pin/brooch on her uniform before politely telling him: “No, sir, did you see this? I am Chinese”
CASE CLOSED
Word. Lots of people suspected this story was fake, but you’ve nailed it.
Okay, this is preposterous.
Do an image search for flight attendants or flight attendant uniforms on Google or whatever and you’ll see plenty of flight attendants from various airlines wearing pins.
For anyone who has flown, flight attendants know to remove anything that would puncture inflation devices before getting on those inflation devices, just like the passengers. This includes pins, brooches, and sharp jewellery like rings and earrings.
Here, I’ll even link to some photos for you:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/376420@N20/
Go ahead, I’ll wait. If you look closely, not only do many of these uniforms incorporate pins, some of them are flag pins. If you don’t trust this pool of photos on Flickr, go ahead and do a wider search on Google. There are MILLIONS of pictures out there. Are you going to insist that no flight attendants wear pins in the face of both common sense and photographic evidence?
There’s a difference between a personal article displayed on the company uniform and a fuckin flight eagle ‘official’ brooch or a company standard name tag. I only looked through the first 20 or 30 of those photos you linked to, and saw no personal articles displayed on their uniforms.
TALK TO SOME FLIGHT ATTENDANTS. Seriously, they’re not so hard to find, ask around.
To clarify, I just got a very clear answer on this, “Hm..no, but you can wear 2 personal HAIR PINS. Just nothing on UNIFORM.” It may vary from airline to airline, but the personal shit on uniform, I seriously doubt, varies.
I thought you lived in US. You seriously think nobody would say shit if a girl puts a COMMUNIST RED STAR on her uniform and prances around? It would probably make some older passengers furious. You should know how US thinks of commies….and in a situation like this, how *totally unrealistic* that situation becomes. A pin, *MAYBE*, a commy pin? *get over yourself*.
Rick, you’re being willfully ignorant and losing your marbles.
You claim flight attendants can’t wear pins. I prove that they can and do.
You now say they can’t wear flag pins. I’ve proven that they can and do. Look at more pictures, you know I wasn’t referring to the flight wings alone. You’re sticking your head in the ground refusing to accept the evidence before your eyes.
You now fall back to “well, they can’t wear COMMIE pins in America!!!”
Rick, it was a small Chinese national flag, not a fucking swastika. Chinese flags appeared all over the world in 2008 and not just during annoying protests. Whatever your personal ideological distaste for the Chinese flag being associated with communism, it was still a flag that was prominently displayed without political overtones on countless commercial collateral and in countless situation. Why? Because it was 2008, the year of the Beijing Olympics in China. Few people took issue with Chinese people being proud of China by sporting a pin or some other China identifier, just as few people took issue with Americans sporting US Flags post-9/11. It was, in context, entirely understandable, reasonable, and mostly accepted without anyone getting their panties in a twist.
I certainly think some Americans or some people would be opposed to a Chinese person wearing a Chinese flag in front of them, like you apparently. However, there are laws in the United States that empower and protect people who wear such flags as a form of speech and self-expression. As an American yourself, this should be a no-brainer. Yet you’re ranting about reds right now.
There is nothing unrealistic about wearing a Chinese flight attendant wearing a small Chinese flag to show her pride or support of the 2008 Beijing Olympics in 2008. In fact, it is rather plausible, as plausible as the FACT that many American flight attendants sported US flag pins post-9/11 (though I’m certain many stopped after they were made aware of how it might dangerously brand them if they’re doing so on flights outside of America as Aircrew Sue said).
Again, you’re being willfully ignorant, and its kinda sad how you’re now making Americans all out to be such commie-haters that they can’t even accept a Chinese person wearing a flag in her country’s big year. Fuck, why did the Americans go to China or broadcast the Olympics if it would make all Americans as “furious” as you say?
Willfully ignorant? like I said, speak to some REAL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS.
Rick, YES, willfully ignorant.
You’re taking the word of one flight attendant you said you asked over the photographic evidence present on the internet. Which is more likely to be convincing, whether in a court of law or not? The testimony of your own flight attendant friend or the testimony of so many flight attendants who have pictures of themselves wearing pins?
Rick, just take what I’ve said or shown you and consult with your flight attendant friend to see what she says. Maybe she’ll explain more. If she still insists that pins are not allowed on planes, then we’re back at an impasse between her word and these pictures.
Next, Rick, did you see USTCer’s post below? Like many other people, you rushed to conclude and argue that this entire story MUST be fake. I took issue with you initially because I thought your reasons were bad for concluding without a doubt that this was all nonsense. Now, USTC has found the person who wrote it and you have the option to contact her, confront her directly, and accuse her of writing lies. Will you?
Look, there’s still a possibility that she’s a Chinese hyper-nationalist. There’s still a possibility that she’s a hopeless liar. There’s still a possibility that she completely misunderstood or misrepresented the French people she met on her flight. You can ask her if that flight attendant really did wear a “commie flag” while on duty. You can ask her if that flight attendant really said those things about French personal hygiene. You can find the truth now.
You weren’t content to leave open the possibility that this story could be authentic. You insisted it must be fake. I tried to reason with you that you’re jumping to conclusions. You’ve argued with me and treated me as a simpleton who is being ridiculous for doubting the wisdom of your judgement and arguments. USTCer did the hard lifting. Are you reasonable enough to either confront the person who wrote this story or, AT THE VERY LEAST, acknowledge that you may have jumped to conclusions about a lot of things relating to this story?
i would need to disagree with you on this. Philippine airlines flight attendant wear copper pins through out the whole flight :)
It seems that nobody here cares about asking the author whether the story is true. After a brief search I got her blog and the original post:
http://my.backchina.com/space.php?uid=177161&do=blog&id=26179
The author is a mother with two children, currently living in US (not France). I asked her about the article’s authenticity and she opened a new post (in Chinese) to respond to criticism here. She’s not quite happy that the article was translated without notice so I suggest commenting there if you have questions to ask.
BTW, some of her other posts are quite well written and entertaining to read, especially one about her American colleagues.
USTCer… cool. Thanks for the research.
Thanks a lot.
Unfortunately, it seems it impossible to acces to this blog from my computer in Beijing. Harmonized ?
Mike Fish and petit bonheur,
You are welcome! Not sure whether it’s blocked or not in China. I have no problem opening it here in Texas USA.
I was able to open it using a proxy. Wouah ! The comments on this article are just freacking ! Incredible !
By the way, it is quite ironical that, for some reason, it is impossible to read and appreciate the litterature of these “patriots” in their own country…
Awesome, USTCer. The website is inaccessible in China and those in China may need a proxy to view it. Why it is blocked could be for any number of reasons. For those who have researched how China’s “Great Firewall” blocks outside internet content, you’ll find that a lot of innocent websites get blocked just because they share an IP address with another website that Chinese government wanted to block. There’s a lot of collateral damage.
USTCer, I don’t think she was “not quite happy” it was translated. I think someone merely commented to her that THEY felt chinaSMACK should’ve contacted her first before translating though I don’t think chinaSMACK found this article on her blog but rather through reposts of it on BBS forums. She did seem to express being unhappy with the many commenters here who thought she was lying though.
Yes, you seem to be right. I reread the post and find her discontent came mostly from the comments instead of the translation.
Dear all,
I am sorry but as a french working in Asia for a few times now, I have to admit you encounter the wrong french people.
First of all we don’t all smell bad or I would have issue working with client or hanging out with local friends.
Secondly, It’s true that we as people are not really used to follow rules, but it does not mean we are anoying people.
I feel sorry that this girls meet the wrong people, nonetheless most of the french people are friendly.
If I could meet her myself to introduce some french friend then she could realize that it was just a wrong misunderstanding with bad people.
Either this is a fake story and it really broke my hearth knowing that some people can try to destroy the reputation of a country just for pride.
Either this is a true story and I hope the people involved will be able to find nice French people to chat with because this is clearly not representative.
Pierre the Asian French :)
Even though I stopped reading half way through, and amuse me was the roof of the plane was intact after so many arguments?
Sometimes it is hard to believe, but it is very dramatic!
The story is fake. Big time. Thank chinasmack of sharing with us such a nice piece of nationalistic garbage.
Chinese flags are not used by airlines – we had this problem when I was at Air New Zealand and Chinese speaking cabin crew were first recruited. A Chinese flag could not be used because it would alienate Taiwanese and Singaporean passengers. In the end I believe they went with a “Nin Hao/Huanying Nin!” pin.
Otherwise, an entertaining piece of creative writing.
at the end of the day, the chinese are still way too uptight and the french are still annoying and act like a bunch of crybabies…… in reality, the chinese and the french are pretty similar.
I’m borned in France even though I have chinese roots. It’s make me so sad that my two country are in tension since the Tibetain’s manifestation. How? Why? A year ago France was very popular in chinese’s heart, my grandpa also tell me that he was proud that my father came in France. But now I truly don’t know what happened.
I’m living in France, so I read french newspaper, and it’s a true that they are a little biased. They have always seen chinese like if they still in 1989’s revolution. But this is changing.
But I agreed that some commentary from
But I agreed that some commentary from website make me angry, always making pregudice… (chinese and french, but French begin :/). They are rude.
I’m I taking it too seriously? I hope… :D
Ok, let’s live happily. I’ll promote China when I’m in France, and I’ll promote France when I’m in China.
Longue vie à l’amitié Franco-chinoise! (même si ça fait un peu ringart de dire ça… héhé)
And sorry for my bad english…
“The most ignorant yet brainwashed idiots are all those double-crossers, those scum and small people who not only do not help their own but build up others with their eyes wide open! A compatriot no matter how wrong is still your compatriot. No matter how civilized an outsider pretends to be they are still an outsider. This should be understood clearly.”
And there it is for everyone in the outside world (Outside of Chimatron ville). Chinese honestly believe they have it not only figured out but that they are the center of the universe and that everyone needs to follow the “light” of “Chinese Civilization” . They love to pour over abstract facts, especially about a history long since forgotten by the rest of the world (i.e. 8 powers invasion) and gloss over the 100’s of billions of dollars of international investment that fuels their economy, builds more efficient forms of infrastructure, and trains the Chi Mates how to actually get things done.
The fact is that we (the west) have only ourselves to blame for allowing the chi mates to behave the way they do in our countries. This biyatch on the plane only represents what China is today. A bunch of whiney babies with a chip on their shoulders, trying to be number one when they are still only number 3.
We could never act out in China the way they did in other countries during the torch relay in China. We would be beaten, fined, and shipped out. Maybe we need to start thinking about sending the chi mates back home. One thing I can’t stand about all this freedom we have is that we allow ourselves to be insulted even on our own back porch in the name of “freedom of speech”. Maybe its time to emulate the DLR system and bounce these monkeys back to the “motherland”
There is the same proportion of stupid people everywhere, it’s not a problem of nationality, it’s a problem of stupidity !
Usually the most stupid people hide behind a flag (or a sport team) to feel strong.
Oh come off it, FDLR. Selective reading, much? Are you seriously going to cherry-pick ONE comment out of all the translated Chinese netizen comments above calling this girl a stupid cunt or otherwise accusing it of being a fake propaganda piece and pass it off as if it was what all Chinese say/think/feel.
But I’m taking you too seriously, FDLR. You yourself has admitted as much that you behave like a whiny baby with a chip on your shoulder on this website to vent. Okay, you refer to yourself as a “whiny baby” but you’ve admitted doing the very same whining that you accuse the Chinese of. ;)
Heh, I agree, I think Westerners could emulate the Chinese system. I just don’t think they’re willing to give up their smug sense of self-righteousness and moral superiority just yet. If Westerner give up their ideals, they’d suddenly have nothing to feel different and thus superior to the Chinese. ;)
What another load of twoddle, i wouldnt be suprised if this wasnt some sort of sanctioned propagander in itself. In times of insecurity, blindless nationalism in china is on the rise, dont be taken in by this clearly unreliable irrelivant story.
I lived in china for a long time and speak mandarin and have plenty of french freinds who are not the least bit arrogant here. The people i do find arrogant and warped when in their mindset if you do get truely down to what they think are alot of the young chinese.
Ask them if they cheered when 9/11 happened?
I love people here in many ways, but really i find the young soo nationalistically self confident, blinded and narrow minded.
I hope we western peopel stand up for our values, and read betweem the lines a little more.
Dont get taken in by this ridiculous sob story.
Just as i remember the chinese youth protests in Manchester last year similarly mentioned in this article. The chinese students i spoke to didnt even know any what so ever of what western protests were even about. What i do know for sure that those chinese protests in manchester/london were state sanctioned for all chinese to do their “patriotic duty” to get onto the streets.
I to some degree give up on changing chinese peoples minds about anything, if i try to show someone images, books or alternative opinions they would say ” I am not interested in politics” or do not even want to see.
But i do hope westerners remember to look a little bit deeper and to see things for what they really are.
This thread has potential.
Probably not true but that doesn’t really matter. The fact is that the author has tried to paint themselves in a positive light, but has, in the process, used the same childish, blindly nationalistic, prejudice and stereotype enthused discourses that she accuses the French actors of, to argue and defend her own position.
Another point.. what exactly is wrong with;
“chatting and drinking, pressing the stewardess call light, opening the window shades of the passenger cabin”???
Is there some in-flight etiquette I have missed? I didn’t realise that these are things that one shouldn’t do!
Douche Bags come in all shapes and sizes.
Kai,
You are kinda right. The other day one of my colleagues was telling me how unfair it is that “foreigners” make so much more money than Chinese and are “treated better” And how foreigners benefit so much from China’s prosperity. Its that kind of arrogant crap I get tired of every day.
Treated better? China’s money? Did China suddenly become a living breathing being that has a conscious? So does that mean the millions upon millions of Chinese benefitting from western education, exports, and movie deals (Jet Li and Jackie Chan) should not be afforded those “benefits”?
Last time I checked I got paid more because I can do what they cant. And btw, I work for an AMERICAN company who gets screwed not by other western companies, but by local jack asses who hide under their red and yellow starred “masterpiece”
That is why I am ranting today. This hoe can go back to the motherland then, wtf is she doing in france if china is so great STAY THERE.
Alex is right, I give up too. And to the people saying that there are “people like this all over the world” I would counter with there is the LARGEST concentration of brainwashed idiots in the world in CHINA :)
Let the games begin