7-Month Pregnant Woman Forced Into Labor to Abort Unborn Baby

A Chinese mother lying on a hospital bed with her aborted 7-month-old fetus beside her.

From ifeng & NetEase:

Shaanxi Zhenping County Family Planning Bureau forcibly aborts woman’s 7-month-old fetus

Recently, a forum post said that the Government of Zengjia Town, Zhenping County, Ankang City, Shaanxi Province illegally took a 7-month-pregnant woman into custody, and forcibly induced labor in order to abort her unborn child. The pregnant woman, Feng Jianmei from Ankang City, was unable to pay the fine of 40,000 RMB for breaking the One-Child Policy, and was illegally taken into custody by the local town government, and forced to abort her baby. At 3:00 am June 4th, 36 hours after Feng Jianmei was compelled to accept a labor inducing injection, the dead fetus was taken out of her abdomen. The 7-month fetus was almost fully developed. A week later, photos of Feng Jianmei and her dead fetus were uploaded onto the internet, causing a controversy. Without notifying the family, induced labor was forced upon the unborn child. With regards to this, the Population and Family Planning Bureau of Zhenping County responded on its official website saying that the woman’s pregnancy does not conform to the [One-Child] Policy; however, after repeated persuasion by the county government cadres, the pregnant woman finally agreed to terminate the pregnancy and received the pregnancy termination procedure at 3:40 pm, June 2nd.

A 7-month-old aborted baby placed on a hospital bed beside her mother, her mother having been forced to have an abortion for violating China's One-Child Policy

Feng Jianmei told the reporter that because she could not afford the fine of 40,000 RMB for having a second child, at 9:00 am on June 2nd, she was escorted to a hospital by about 20 to 30 county government employees and at 3:00 pm that day was injected with “poisonous drugs” to induce labor.

Feng Jianmei lying on a hospital bed. For violating China's One-Child Policy, local family planning officials forcibly terminated her 7-month pregnancy and induced labor to remove the dead baby.

She was violently treated on the way to the hospital because she continued to resist and when she was at the hospital, no family members were present to be with her. According to Feng Jianmei, on May 29th, Deng Jiyuan [Feng Jianmei’s husband] had left home and was on his way to Inner Mongolia. On May 30th, the county government began sending people over, in four-man four-hour shifts, to guard her. On June 1st, using the excuse of “going grocery shopping”, she escaped to Deng Jiyuan’s aunt’s place to go into hiding, but was ultimately found later that same evening. The county government employees then used bricks to block the door to prevent her from escaping. The next morning, they escorted her to the hospital.

Jianmei lying on a hospital bed showing the bruises she suffered at the hands of local government officials. For violating China's One-Child Policy, local family planning officials forcibly terminated her 7-month pregnancy and induced labor to remove the dead baby.

Feng Jianmei showing the bruises on her body.

Comments from ifeng:

凤凰网中国网友:微浪1

A 7-and-half-month-old fetus can totally survive. My daughter was born when she was six months and a half. She is now 4 years old, healthy, smart, just a little bit shorter than children of her age. But doctors say she will catch up her height with other children of her age when she is older than 10.

凤凰网河南省郑州市网友:祖国国民

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

凤凰网广东省中山市网友:mast123

If she had money, this life would’ve been saved!

凤凰网广东省深圳市网友:鸡同鸭讲

It is stated in our country’s constitution that a fetus of six months is considered a “person”. This is case of murder.

凤凰网四川省泸州市网友:sbwvfiii

As someone who is already a father, looking at these photos breaks my heart!

凤凰网北京市网友:xiao0612

Ma Yinchu, the former president of Peking University who promoted the One-Child Policy, has 8 children himself.

凤凰网湖北省荆门市网友 荆门反恐精英

We must crack down on those criminals who break the One-Child Policy!

凤凰网湖北省网友:尼玛瓦德拉

My unborn little brother was not only forcibly aborted, our family was still fined. Sigh…

凤凰网天津市网友:劳苦大众劳苦大众

Such a cruel act, no better than the Japanese devils!!!!!!!

凤凰网新疆阿克苏市网友:gaojian799

Buddha, please let them get what they deserve!

Comments from NetEase:

网易广东省深圳市罗湖区网友:

Fuck you, you bunch of apes.

苍狼00119 [网易山东省泰安市网友]:

Because she couldn’t pay the 40,000 yuan fine for having a second child… May I ask, if she had the money, would she have been able to have the child? A 7-month-old life is not worth 40,000 RMB!

瓜白 [网易陕西省西安市网友]:

There are no limits [to what people are capable of] anymore, hehe.

个人关点 [网易福建省漳州市网友]:

Anyone who is human would not be capable of doing this. For money, you guys have sold your consciences.

cs是一种信仰 [网易山东省青岛市网友]:

One word: Beasts.

胖飞飞 [网易浙江省台州市网友]:

As someone who has just become a father, I only want to say they’re worse than animals, CNM!

网易北京市网友:

Utterly heartless.

要有个好身体 [网易北京市网友]:

Intentional homicide!

网易广东省深圳市福田区网友:

One of my friends became a county family planning cadre after graduation and firmly quit after a year, saying he could no longer rob the ordinary common people of their money! Let alone directly forcibly inducing abortions! If any faction leader has any chivalry, please send some people to take out these inhuman bastards!

背影1 [网易广东省网友]:

These sons of bitches.

What do you think?

Help us maintain a vibrant and dynamic discussion section that is accessible and enjoyable to the majority of our readers. Please review our Comment Policy »
  • The Shadow Knows

    No bad “dead baby on the sofa jokes, please

    • mr. wiener

      Agreed….This is just sad.
      China I still love you, but you make it so hard sometimes.
      Despite the publicity on this one the bastards who did this will get away with it, again! Wish there was a special part of Dante’s inferno waiting for them.

      • kw

        i read news that they are currently investigating it..
        hopefully something better will come out of it..

      • hooots

        China is a terrible, heartless, soulless, place. While I lived there you could feel the weight of the sadness of the people in every moment. They feel hopeless. Their only hope is to get out. And if they can, they sure as hell do. RIP all the millions if not billions of people the Chinese government has needlessly killed.

        • mr. wiener

          Hey hooots, long time no see.

          • hooots

            Yeah, I’ve been off chinasmack for a while. I left China and now live in Thailand. Just checking back to see if everything in China was how I left it. It is haha. How’ve you been Sir Sausage?

          • mr. wiener

            I’ve been great. Why the move to the land of smiles?

          • hooots

            Great! I came here because it’s more terrible than China in every way. I love being in a place with sickening food, a rude dishonest humorless culture, unhealthy work environment, and scenery that you wouldn’t wish upon the most corrupt of Chinese government officials. Spread the word: this place sucks.

          • moop

            hoots, try malaysia. nicest people i’ve met

          • hooots

            I’ve heard Saudi Arabia is pretty chill.

          • moop

            all i know is that the people in KL were much more friendly than people in other large cities. my wife ran over someone’s foot with a luggage and the other person apologized to her. but it is hot a hell. pretty secular for a muslim country as well

          • Alan

            I’ve heard Saudi Arabia is pretty chill

            Actually, Saudi people are known for being pretty chilled and laidback, in common with most gulf arabs. Confrontation or screaming at each other in the street (aka china style) is just not the way things are done over there.

        • Northerner

          I moved to Malaysia direct from Shanghai. It was like stepping into the Garden of Eden after 8 years in Dachau. Had the pleasure of lots of work in Thailand. You are quite right, after China it really is a hell hole full of the worst types. So understandable why The Chinese look down upon their S E Asian cousins.

          • ACE

            so many hypocrite western White Trash parasites are staying & yet bad-mouthing Asia. just go back to your already fucked up country and & let your fucking corrupt govt. feed you.WHITE TRASH PARASITES FUCK OFF & STAY OFF from Asia!

          • whiskersthecat

            Oh man, ACE is mad. Mad mad mad. His face is all red because ours is so white. I wonder if his anger is on a scale depending on how foreign the person looks? For example, if my beautiful white skin, flowing golden locks and gorgeous deep blue eyes will set him off more so than your average tanned, brown hair/brown eyes fare? Here’s a bonus bit of Western-ness to really set you over the top, ACE: I have burgundy-red facial hair. Blonde hair and red facial hair?

            And now as per your request, I am going go get off in Asia to the point that I stay getting off.

          • mr. wiener

            Where do you live Ace?

        • HeSaidSheSaid

          Not to sound too heartless, but needlessly? There are far, far, far too many people on the planet already. Everywhere is crowded, the environment is being utterly destroyed, all because of too many people. In this case I believe that they were too late to stop the pregnancy, so, their bad, they should have let this one slide, this is just horrible. But I think China, for all it’s problems, has it’s policy right, (the enforcement of it may be a different story). We are born with an instinct to reproduce to continue the DNA of our species, but logically, we DO NOT need more people on the planet. Can anyone tell me why we need to INCREASE the population on this planet? One or two children is enough.

          • froggy

            good comment, i hate to agree

          • Patrick

            I agree as well, if late term abortions are becoming di rigueur then I think the Chinese should do it by flesh searching the intended government official and abort him (or her) immediately. There really aren’t enough executions in the world really. I think they should come back into style with a vengeance. Kill someone? Immediate execution. Rape, ditto. If we need to immediately cut China’s population down execute anyone who cuts someone else off in traffic – that clears the country instantly of all the assholes with cars. This would also help with China’s pollution problem. If a person gives a crappy hong bao – execution. There’s just so many useful ways to take care of these problems.

          • linette

            and it’s usually the poorest lowest educated people that want a large family like 4 or 5 kids. And they don’t have the financial ability to provide for the kids to begin with. Some even go as far as keep trying until they get a boy. It’s really sad.

          • Strangerland

            I bhate to agree with you, but I have to this time. This is such a moral dilemma. If they let this one slide, the cunning Chinese people would start hiding their pregnant women and appear at late pregnancy, safe in the knowledge that no force abortion for late pregnancy. If they elt this one slide away without paying fine, the other millions of Chinese would start doing the same, and before you know it the policy would be no more. I place the blame on the parents- they know the policy, the know they couldn’t pay or bring the baby safely to another country before giving birth(say HobgKOng or other foreign countries)- yet they still went and made this baby. What are they thinking- pray they would luck out somehow? In the end the tragedy lies on the dead baby- it is the victim between its parents’ selfishness and its heartless Government. RIP, poor baby.

          • Somethin Somethin

            What do you think she was doing for 7 months? She hid out until it was too late(so she thought) and then they caught her. The official decided to split hairs and somebody found out so now he’s in trouble. This shit isn’t some isolated incident, but a case as common as the cold.

          • Garry

            I agree

            Procreation is a pleasant passtime but the results seem to be just another habit.

  • kw

    Sofa!
    what a sad news..

    • JoE

      Sad news indeed. Please die in a fire.

      • Joe

        quite

  • Mao Ze Shenme Dong Dong

    Soup anyone?

    • moop

      i dunno, is it as tasteful as you are?

      • Mao Ze Shenme Dong Dong

        a little bit like pigs feet but the skin smells sweet.

    • mr. wiener

      Coping mechanism perhaps, but a little too soon for bad taste jokes don’t you think?

      • ACE

        @whiskersthecat.

        you’re absolutely right! that’s why you’re a colorful WHITE TRASH & as for the hotdoggie punk,keep us entertain for we will always be above you & that’s the bottom line!

        • whiskersthecat

          I know what you need. Some ACE Bandages! They carry your name, and they’ll help protect that chapped ass that all these laowai have inflicted on you.

          • Garry

            Perhaps he attended one of the orphanages, and the priests got to him…

    • Brett Hunan

      The old “baby soup” cliche, still commonly found on Yahoo! News forums and apparently chinaSMACK.

      Every time I think we have evolved beyond this, I get reminded of the twisted pseudo-reality that is the interwebs.

      • hooots

        Ummm, ask some Chinese people. They tell me it’s true. My friend said a dumpling place near his house used to use human flesh from the morgue that was adjacent to it. His dad loved to go there… even after they found out. Oh, and the placenta…

        • Castro

          Yeah, I had a female Chinese friend tell me that ‘wine’ made from kidnapped dead girls bodies was a reality in rural China. She was a middle-aged, sophisticated, educated Chinese lady.
          Well, that is what she said….

          • anon

            Urban legends exist amongst the Chinese too. Just because they’re Chinese doesn’t mean what they say about Chinese people is beyond skepticism and critical thinking. There are certainly instances of deviancy in China as there are anywhere else, but they’re not statistically significant for you to take them at face value. Rumors of cannibalistic folk practices in China has less statistical significance than claims of Americans all owning guns. Don’t be so gullible. It’s like the English believing any random thing about the “exotic, barbaric, and uncivilized” natives of “dark Africa”.

          • Castro

            Maybe so, but from what I have read widespread cannibalism was commonplace during the great leap backwards and the CR.

          • anon

            Uh, it was about as widespread as any historical instance of starvation and especially mass starvation. No surprise there.

          • Fu ZhiGao

            It pains me to say this, but you can find pictures of baby soup if you look for it.

          • Fu ZhiGao

            No, I take that back. My wife denies having said that. Don’t look (I haven’t and don’t want to). Pardon me for spreading ignorance.

          • Brett Hunan

            Fu ZhiGao

            those pics that floated around years ago were fakes. Unless there are newer ones that you know of.

  • moop

    good to see the netizens upset. i wonder if the ccp caps the value of a life at 4万, or does it change with age?

    • Rick in China

      40k isn’t the “value of a life”, it’s the fine for violating the one child policy – ie if you pay 40k you can legally have your Nth child.

      • moop

        it clearly is the value of a life seeing that if the fee is not paid the life is extinguished.

        • Rick in China

          The fine is almost like a fee in order to provide the baby legal status. I don’t know whether it’s legal for them to force her to terminate the pregnancy, and I guess the legal situation here is whether they used illegal tactics in order to get an agreement, which is a valid investigation. If the baby was born, its life wouldn’t be “extinguished”, the question here is the same one in the US though: at what point is it a baby? I think 7 months *is* definitely a baby, but in China, I’d imagine that it’s not a baby until it is born, and in this case they ‘forced’ it to be born dead.

          • moop

            one of the chinese netizens mentioned in their constitution 6months is considered a person. not sure if that guy is full of shit or not though. maybe they should have given her the option to put the baby on layaway?

          • Winterbitten

            Yet they add 1 year to their age because the consider the time spent in the womb as part of their life….

          • hooots

            Since when does the Chinese government give a flying fuck what’s legal? I’ve never seen it.

          • Dan

            It’s more of a payment into the system to provide for social benefits associated with having a hukou. This policy has resulted in the rapid rise of living standards and it’s not a bad thing at all. It also stopped the population explosion from going further. Look at India for an example of an overpopulated country with no desire to fix it. Sorry here, but the fine exists for a reason, if you can pay it, it’s a full demonstration that you will be able to provide for the kid and not be a drain on society. Sorry, but them’s the breaks.

          • Rick in China

            The question here isn’t so much about why the one child policy exists – that’s pretty clear! I think it’s more-so how they went about enforcing the policy in this case… thoughts on that?

        • Snarl

          I wonder if you can capitalize and amortize that 40k over the life expectancy of the child… GAAP says nothing about this.

          • anon

            Accountant jokes…interesting.

          • jin

            http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-06/14/c_131653703.htm
            its prohibited to abort late in her pregnancy, this was done illegally by 3 dumbass corrupt government.

          • moop

            yes, who wanted to make sure they kept to their birth quotas issued by the ccp.

          • Snarl

            Jokes? I believe you are gravely mistaken. Accountants don’t have a sense of humor.

          • Patrick

            @Snarl That explains a lot, so how long have you been an accountant?

        • Fu ZhiGao

          People have extra kids in rural China. They just don’t get a shenfenzhen for them.

      • Alan

        That is understood, but what about the have nots, as opposed to the have mores?

        Surely even you can agree the system is unjust and in favour of the rich.

        • Nick in Beijing

          The system was designed and is maintained by the rich, for the rich, at the expense of the poor.

          I thought this was common knowledge by now.

          • Alan

            I thought this was common knowledge by now.

            Not saying it is not common knowledge. But to which system are you referring, globally, or just in the PRC?

        • Rick in China

          That’s nonsense.

          The system was designed to, as someone had posted above, alleviate society from taking care of and providing public services for an abundance of poverty stricken children. If a poor person has 10 kids and expects the government to pay for them, and they can’t pay for them, what sort of state do you expect the country to be in over time? India is a great example (as provided above).

          It’s not about “for” the rich and “against” the poor, if you can afford to have multiple kids go nuts, you just pay 40k for their legal documentation and there’s no issue. If you can’t afford 40k, maybe you shouldn’t be having a bunch of kids, no?

          • Alan

            If you can’t afford 40k, maybe you shouldn’t be having a bunch of kids, no?

            Problem is, it just goes to show to the world, that in China money is king, life is cheap.

            Someone dies? mei banfa, pay their family off….

            Want an extra kid? No problem if your an iron rice bowl civil servant/cpc member/official….perhaps even a backhander in a ktv room is good enough.

            Average person on the street who doesn’t have 40k spare, not a chance in hell, but then a society that butchers dogs, can’t be expected to have compassion for an unborn child imho.

          • Joe

            What welfare are you referring to? I may be wrong, but I didnt think there was much welfare available to the poor in China.

          • jin

            http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-06/14/c_131653703.htm
            its prohibited to abort late in her pregnancy, this was done illegally by 3 dumbass corrupt government.

            and china is trying to change itself, the rural areas in china are slowly inproving as well, as their children can go to school for free. and if this law didnt exist, and the people from the rural areas go make 10 childrens x million others, in 50 years people like you alan will still say oooh the chinese live in bad conditions they are rude and blablabla and other crap, if the childrens from the city get proper education, they will change. look at the younger generations, are they the same as the older generation? are the netizens the same as those rude chinese that spit on the ground? poor people wont buy condom and they will keep multiplying if this law wasnt here.

          • Rick in China

            @Alan

            Poor can have a kid, maybe 2. The policy exists in part to prevent poverty stricken from having _lots_ of kids. What happens when poor have a bunch of kids? Look at Africa. Most die. Many grow up in poverty and end up criminals, slaves, selling flowers on the side of the street, exploited, sold into slavery, etc. If you think that’s fine, and poor should be able to have as many kids as they like “to be fair” in an extremely highly populated country like China, I question your analytic logic. Is it really inhumane to say “don’t have more than 1 kid. If you REALLY want to, pay some money into the system which provides public services.” ? I don’t know, I don’t think so, but it seems pretty logical to me.

            That’s a separate issue than this, where they disgustingly forced an abortion, but that issue is more about “how to enforce” the rule than the rule itself.

          • maja

            overpopulation is not a matter of rich, poor or welfare, it is a matter of number of people vs. limited resources and limited resources are not a variable of productivity. let’s say there are maybe 100 million people in china that can pay the fee (could be more, could be less), if each of them have 4 children this rich educated and civilized kids will add to overpopulation exactly as every poor kid from the countryside. still if they want they can because they have the money to pay, how is this not an example of how money can get you through everything?
            the policy is right in principle and, in most cases, in application, but why deny that rich people have a different treatment just because of their money?

            regardless, I’m curious to know if you can get a loan from a bank to pay the fee…

          • Rick in China

            @Maja RE: “it is a matter of number of people vs. limited resources and limited resources are not a variable of productivity”

            Your logic is flawed.
            Poor having more babies than rich is absolutely a direct affect on overpopulation. The effects of overpopulation is a strain on resources, limited resources, and *their* productivity in society suffers because they’ve lost the golden pussy lottery. Growing up poor doesn’t absolutely guarantee that you’re going to end up poor by any means, but it sure as shit means you’re more than likely to. Rich families can afford to give their kids better education, better opportunities, better everything – by themselves – not having to strain the economy, but rather contributing to it as a result of their children..more spending, more cost. If they can afford it – great – it adds to the economy through expenditures. Poor families have nothing to spend on their kids, they grow up without, they don’t buy new anything, they don’t essentially do anything but work to help the family in shitty jobs or potentially criminal jobs, and it has a direct negative effect.

            Rich or poor people do NOT have different treatment *because* of money. It’s a fine. That’s a ridiculous statement. There is a policy in place. If you can pay the fine, whether you’re rich or poor, you don’t suffer consequence. If you can’t, well, you suffer consequence. The fine doesn’t discriminate vs. rich or poor – it exists. That’s like saying “Why does BOSS Orange jeans discriminate against poor people! Only rich can wear!” — um..well, no, everyone can wear them, you just have to pay the f’in fee. Get it?

          • maja

            as I see it the overpopulation matter is linked but not coincident with the poverty problem. maybe you can give me a simple explanation of what overpopulation actually is.
            also, I don’t want to start any argument of rich vs. middle-class vs. poor vs. the banks (etc.) but… and please don’t take it at a personal level, are you seriously making a comparison between OCP and buying jeans?

    • simon

      i think this is very sad news, but what about the flip side? if China doesn’t enforce its 1 child policy vigorously what would be the population of China today? Would it make its rural population even larger and poorer, what’s the repercussion if the rules were lax?

      food for thought (no pun intended).

      • mr. wiener

        There is a right way to do this and a wrong way. The officials flouted the law with an illegal late term abortion, a possible forcably obtained consent and and illegal detention.

        • simon

          i’m not sure what the right way would be to enforce the 1 child policy rule on a woman who is already 7 months pregnant, but if you mean letting the child live than you’re going to have an awful lot of rural people flouting the 1 child policy and hence the government’s dilemma.

          • mr. wiener

            Adoption.. there is a big demand for it in China.

          • simon

            So you offer forced adoption? There really is no right way to deal with this you know, it’s all grey ;)

            and again, this solution will actually make the 1 child policy less effective.

          • Nick in Beijing

            Given the looming population shortage for china in the second half of this century one would imagine they’d ask the people to get crackin’ on them babies.

            Word has it that even if they abolished the one child policy today they’d still be facing underpopulation and immense economic strain by 2060 or so.

          • moop

            the demographic trend is supposed to start as early as 2015, it’s not going to be pretty

          • anon

            They face an aging demographic crisis but allowing continued growth in the population would result in a resource crisis. They long ago decided the former was the lesser of two evils. We can blame Mao or we can blame Chinese people for just being so damn virile but the idea of curbing population is simply a utilitarian one made in the interests of the whole at the expense of the individual.

            simon is right. This is all grey.

            The ideal situation is that there is effective education on why curbing reproduction is necessary and how contraceptives are readily available to control this. China has tried (anyone remember all those amusing and sometimes outrageous propaganda banners and slogans plastered all over the countryside discouraging and even threatening against multiple births?) and continues to do this. Some people still flout it just as we all flout laws at times.

            Then enforcement should be more consistent, with pregnancies to be caught earlier and termination enforced if we can’t stomach such late-term abortions. The problem here is the actual logistics of enforcement. How do you reliably monitor pregnancy with so many people?

            Deterrence and disincentives like fines are problematic. If you allow someone to have a baby after paying the fine, you end up producing more babies in poverty (we’re excepting the wealthy here) which creates its own social problem. They somewhat work as negative reinforcement if the pregnancy is caught early, termination enforced, and the fine is nonetheless applied (as a Chinese netizen mentioned above). They’re punished for attempting to flout the law. But then we could complain that we were going to get an abortion so its unfair to fine us for something we just haven’t yet done and so on.

            The problem with explicitly allowing people to have children if the pregnancy has reached a certain maturity is that you might inadvertently encourage people who insist on having more children to simply hide their pregnancies until the late term. It’s like running the statue of limitations out. What do you do then? Let them have the child but fine them and damn the child to poverty to create a growing poverty class? The rich might not care, but often its the poor who are doing this (for any number of reasons).

            It’s a tough problem with no easy answers, especially because it touches upon something very personal.

          • Rick in China

            RE: “Word has it that even if they abolished the one child policy today they’d still be facing underpopulation and immense economic strain by 2060 or so”

            Yeah, tell that to the 750 million migrant workers and poverty stricken farmers. There’s a definite potential of underpopulation. Education is key, lift the poor out of the ditches and shrink the poor/rich gap, but that’s a lot easier said than done.

          • linette

            simon

            …. awful lot of rural people flouting the 1 child policy and hence the government’s dilemma………

            You can also punish those who break the law other ways. Under no circumstances the authority should exercise physical violence against the family and the mother. Forced abortion should never be allowed. They need consent from the mother.
            Let the baby live and take it away. Give it up for adoption for the more capable childless parents who can raise this child probably.
            They can then punish the mother or the family with community services like hard labor to pay the fine for breaking the law. Fine them heavily so they won’t dare to do it again.

          • linette

            ……They face an aging demographic crisis but…………..

            Then have more young foreigners come inside China to work. Let them come. Make China a more multicutural society. It will be better for the whole country.

            This world is already too overpopulated. IT’s killing the earth. Need to control population.

          • jin

            http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-06/14/c_131653703.htm
            its prohibited to abort late in her pregnancy, this was done illegally by 3 dumbass corrupt government.

            and yeah what rick said
            “Education is key, lift the poor out of the ditches and shrink the poor/rich gap, but that’s a lot easier said than done.”
            this is possible if it was some other country, but not china, reason is the population, if this law didnt exist and every rural family would have 2-6 or even more children, they would keep on multiplying, you can give all their children free education but giving free education ten millions and maybe hundred millions of children is just not possible.

          • Rick in China

            @Linette RE: “Then have more young foreigners come inside China to work. Let them come.”

            Most young foreigners (male) come a LOT in China. Don’t worry about that, we’re coming….we’re coming….we’re….cooommminnnnggg…..

            RE: “They need consent from the mother.
            They can then punish the mother or the family with community services like hard labor to pay the fine for breaking the law.”
            Really? That’s a good solution? Take the mother of a newborn (and another kid) and put her into hard labour. Yep, that’ll be GREAT for the kids. Maybe just sell them off to be flower sellers or thieves….. it’d probably be a better life than having parents sentenced to hard labour during their early years. Forced into adoption or foster/government care is so much better? What if the baby was born with a disability and nobody wanted to adopt? Let it rot, it’s fine, right? Come on. It’s not so easy to say “This is better”, there are so many situations where this is just a horrible case with no real good solution. The mother/father were fucking idiots and selfish peasants who ignorantly thought they could get around rules which are in place for good reason, and their ignorance resulted in the death of a soon to be innocent newborn.

          • linette

            Rick in China
            ….Most young foreigners (male) come a LOT in China………….

            You are such a male whore! This is why that Chinese tv host said that laowai need to go home. China should be opened for more foreigners to come to work, live and pay tax. To support the economy just like other Chinese citizens. For those laowai coming over just to look for China girls to spread their legs those laowai should all go home! I feel so sorry for these lowly educated naive China girls coming from poor families.

          • linette

            Rick in China,

            And I am not saying send the mothers to do hard labor like mine worker or something. I am just saying there should be some punishment to avoid them from breaking the one child policy law. You can fine them or send them to jail. Or maybe community services like cleaning the street or garbage cleaning public bathroom etc…types of hard labor.

          • Rick in China

            @Linette
            Relax. It was a joke. I pay a _lot_ in tax, and am in a committed relationship.
            RE: “labor” you say Jail time? You think that’s better for her kids? Put her in jail, and what…give the babies to whom? That’s not a solution.

    • Ning

      At Interpedia, the value of a chinese infant is at least 12 000 euros… about 8万more than the fine she would have paid. The baby is referred to as “she” so I suppose the mother could have negotiated a higher price. Not to oppose or defend the reality that international adoption is partly human trafficking, but I can only wonder why the thug cadres didn’t maximize their income by extorting an adoption agreement from her? The baby would have lived a happy life and everyones pockets would be filled.

      • anon

        There aren’t that many adoptions, domestically or internationally.

        • linette

          anon

          No true. Many people want to adopt but are given a hard time because of laws.

        • Ning

          There’s LOTS of couples waiting for adoption placement here in Europe, I guess in N.America too, who have already gone through psychological screening, marriage and economic stability assessment and many age out of the system remaining childless. The bigger tragedy are the children who grow up in institutions or on the street without families. I’m not saying this baby should have been adopted, her mother clearly wanted to keep her and poverty=!misery, but it would have been a lot better option than this brutal murder.

  • Rick in China

    Heartless or not, it’s a policy – we can argue about how it’s wrong or whatnot… but the bottom line is it’s totally well known and she tried to get around it without the means to do so – so…the fault is hers.

    We can all talk about the heartlessness or inhumanity of the policy itself, but in this case it’s kinda a side topic, she’s responsible for the dead fetus – not the policy.

    • mr. wiener

      So it is clear cut that the officials in this case acted within the law?
      there seems to be so disagreement about this. It said she was illegaly taken into custody. Her “agreement” would of course be forced, but legal. However it seems to have stirred up some controversy as to exact letter of the law and the zeal of those who enforce it.
      Granted though, bad idea to have a second child if you don’t have $40K rmb handy.

      • mr. wiener

        Rick.
        If you are able to dodge the family planning police until you actually have the 2nd baby I’m assuming you still have to pay the fine? I don’t think they would kill the kid after it’s actually been born, just pull your child support benefits and stuff right?

        • Rick in China

          The child has no legal status. No documents, no rights, nothing… basically becomes a dishwasher or street urchin in that kinda situation. That may change someday, or maybe has recently I don’t know, but it’s how it was..

          • Dan

            Paying the fine means getting a hukou for the kid which means they get a 身份证 and can lead a normal life. No hukou means no school, no welfare or social benefits, nothing. It’s also be impossible to get a real job ever and good luck immigrating without a passport. Seriously, try existing in the US without a SSN and no valid birth certificate… you are basically fucked.

            It’s also not a fine, it’s “社会抚养费” and the amount is set at a local level based on what hukou is being handed out. This should be covering the costs that you are incurring to society for having more kids than you were supposed to have. You violated policy, why should the government have to cover your ass for all those years of school, healthcare and other subsidies? As bad as rural schools are, they are getting better. Double the number of students without doubling the funding and see what happens.

            Being in a position to pay the fine is more or less a sign that you are going to be able to raise the kid successfully. If you’re both only children, you can have two. If you’re a minority it doesn’t matter. Both parents holding a masters degree means two kids as well. Yes, it’s biased towards the rich, but when you’re poor as fuck, you shouldn’t be forced to divide up the meager resources you have to try and raise more kids.

            Also, for those of you familiar with Chinese families.. it wasn’t all that long ago at all that the families were absolutely huge. Hell, I have 8 aunts to remember and another 6 uncles. Once you bring in the extended family.. even more drastic. The only things that stop this trend are either modernization and industrialization which discourages having a ton of kids… and laws to prevent it from happening. Anyone worried about a demographic time bomb… well, a resource starved, crowded, young, angry population is a hell of a lot worse than one that is slowly declining and having more resources available. If anything, it’s the responsible thing to do.

            As cruel as this was, the only thing wrong about it was the way it played out. They couldn’t scrape together a measly 4w and Ankang isn’t all that bad of a place. Not the richest place in the world, but 1.6w a year is the average per person. Sure, this place is a bit in the sticks… so it probably gets cut down a bit. The 4w isn’t some mystery number either. Are you honestly gonna sit back and tell me that if they have zilch in the way of savings, have had 7 months to hit up relatives to help pay and failed… that they would have been able to raise the extra kid? Especially if the first kid was already sucking them dry in resources?

            I liked the accounting comment in there about paying it over time. But this isn’t really all that feasible either. Where’s the reason to keep paying once the kid’s already there? What if something happens and they can’t make a payment? Do you cancel the hukou and kick the kid out of school? Have the kid in secret to avoid paying? Ok, so the kid is what exactly? A farm slave with zero hope of ever being anything else? The penalty, at the very least encourages planning in advance, setting aside resources and not squirting out 10 kids who will all be uneducated with zero shot at moving up in life.

            The excuse is the social costs, the reason however is quality over quantity and preventing a population explosion that has no chance of being supported.

          • tai wai

            why should the government have to cover your ass for all those years of school, healthcare and other subsidies?

            Because that’s how modern, developed countries work.

          • Rick in China

            @tai wai
            Welfare state for the win! Yes. Let the 1.# billion people with 750 million in poverty/migrant workers pump out a ton of kids and lets see how quickly the government runs out of any ability to provide any social services due to insurmountable cost, WOOT! This isn’t Canada with 3# million people, this is China with 1.# BILLION. Solutions apply differently to different countries with different socioeconomic situations, don’t be so small minded.

          • tai wai

            This isn’t Canada with 3# million people, this is China with 1.# BILLION. Solutions apply differently to different countries with different socioeconomic situations, don’t be so small minded.

            So, what you’re saying is, China can not rise to the level a modern, first-world, liberal state? It isn’t possible?

            Isn’t that what the rest of the world wants?

          • Rick in China

            I’m saying it takes a different approach than simply taking an existing country’s methods and slapping it on a country with very different issues and root causes for those issues, and expecting it to happen overnight. You seem to think in a “Why don’t they just…” as if it’s so simple, it shows you’re narrow minded and ignorant of reality.

        • Strangerland

          Well last time I check around, the western developed countries who turn into welfare states also have angry citizens. For example, Brittain with its welfare state gets itself yobs and pregnant teen mothers who chucked out at least 4 babies from 4 different fathers by the time they’re in their 20s, all for the sake of receiving child benefits. Again, it’s not to say that all teens are like that in the welfare countries, but you should have seen the anger and resentment by dutiful citizens who have to shoulder the bills in their taxes. These yobs have kids as much as possible and expect the society to feed, clothe and send their kids to school- without workng themselves.They’re ticking time bombs as well, and the welfare system would just explode when finally it couldn’t cope with the crowds who milk the system dry. And when the system explode, it wouldn’t be able to cover for those who truly needs it. I think China already see the future of these welfare countries, and wisely stay away from providing such communist utopia system that would turn them into previous state in Mao era.

    • Paul

      Rick, your logic is fucked.

      Nazi Germany had a policy to exterminate Jews.

      So was it a Jew’s fault when they were killed? No, it was the fault of the government that created the inhumane policy of killing jews.

      Getting pregnant is not always a choice. Sometimes it just happens.

      This woman did the right thing. These 30 or so workers, like the SS in Germany, heartlessly carried out an inhumane policy to the bitter end.

      • mr. wiener

        What is the “rule” about an argument if you start making comparisons with the nazis and the SS you automatically lose?

        • An anonymous boy…

          Reductio ad Hitlerum; It’s just a logical fallacy as is Rick’s reply: “You’re a fucking idiot Paul” =)

        • donscarletti

          It’s called the “First Corollary to Godwin’s Law”.

          The law itself is that:

          As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

          • mr. wiener

            Anon boy and don.
            Thank you both very much for the answers.

      • Rick in China

        You’re a fucking idiot Paul. Exterminating another human being vs. taking precautions to prevent birth (um there are LOTS in China, readily available.) is a significant jump, and the rest of your nonsense isn’t worth a reply.

        • Paul

          This 7 month old IS a human being.

          • Rick in China

            You can blame the government for having a 1 child policy, and hate how they enforce their open and commonly accepted rules, but this is the WOMAN’S fault. To equate more along the lines of your jew story. Lets say the nazis said “If you’re jewish and you cross this line, your child will be shot” – so a jew intentionally and knowingly of the policy crosses the line thinking they can get away with it – then, their child is shot. Whose fault is it? The rules were clear. The rules were broken. A child is dead as a result. You can say the rule is stupid, the enforcing of the rule is stupid, that’s a separate argument – the child is dead because the jew stepped over the line, next time if you know the rules don’t fucking break them and blame the enforcing of something that is commonly accepted as practice for many legitimate reasons.

        • Strangerland

          I agree, there’s difference in being in your mother’s womb for 7 month versus never been conceived at all. Why can’t this couple use contraceptive? China is big on contraceptives, hell even during Olympic they provide it for hotels because they understand their cunning citizens- imagine these Chinese who scout for foreigners and once they score(pregnant) accuse the foreigners to impregnate them during their love courtship, and want the foreigners to pay them child support and probably even sponsor them to get out from China. No matter how much the foreigner deny the whole deal and accuse the woman to be a prostitute, with DNA testing+lots of manouvers….the story would be about heartless foreign man who wooed a naive lady, and left after the fruit of the affair showing. I bet most foreigners don’t realize this kind of scenario, but the Chinese could develop such scheme.

          A lot of my Chinese friends said that they already aware of westerners’ tendency to be anti-Chinese, even attacking such policy. But according to them, China is damned if they do, damned if they don’t. At least they tried to do the right thing for the sake of the earth resources- westerners won’t be the one who deal with the limited resources, the competition to secure said resources, and they would be yelping when they suddenly have to shoulder the explosion of Chinese(and curse the Chinese again for having too much people!). Easy for you to condemn them, but you’re not the people who have to deal with the population crise, it’s easy to just yapping about sweet ideal life-equality for all- but you’re no different from the Maoist- according to my Chinese friends who had read your posts today. Have to say I agree with them….

      • Ming

        Paul the Nazi killing Jews is not the same..you are comparing apples with oranges. China policy is not about killing ALL Chinese its about controlling population so that everyone who is living in China can get a fair go. The size of livable space and also farming land will not increase but Chinese population is.

        Getting pregnant doesn’t just happen..there are many cheap ways to stop both male and female from getting unwanted pregnancy and China family planning have offices all over china to help people..yes even poor family people.

        The woman did NOT do the right thing..she knew she is carrying an illegal child and she also had a window of 5-6 months to work extra jobs to raise the fine money to keep her child. She and her husband did not do any of this..they just wanted to get away with it.

        You need to keep emotional arguments out of this, and see that each country have their own policy to protect the GENERAL population and not about individual. This policy is not only good for China but also good for planet earth. Human population needs to be a universal concern for everyone..this planet just do not have enough resources or farming land to feed and house everyone at the birth rate we are currently on.

        • linette

          MIng

          I agree with what you said.

          The child will be illegal with no document. What kind of life will this child have in China? The parents are just a bit irresponsible and selfish. But the force abortion is just too brutal.

          • Rick in China

            It’s totally too brutal. The victim here is 100% the child (fetus?) – the problem is the parents are fucking idiots who tried to get away with something, and a (required?) policy that they neglected to follow…whether the policy is right or wrong is arguable, but the fact the parents are responsible for creating the situation which is absolutely not allowed is what resulted in the fetus’ death. Such a sad situation…but it seems most netizens are pointing their finger at the government.. what’s their better reaction…that’s a rough one.

        • Suicidal tendency

          Ming, and same to Rick in China:
          Parents being responsible for their child is different from killing a child because of its parents!

          Rick: Taking back your example: “if you cross that line, I kill your son”.
          I’d like you to consider the child didn’t do anything wrong there, but you will shoot him/her claiming “hey, your mom broke the rule, sorry! [bang!].”

          It’s the same thing here:
          “Hey! Your parents screwed! Sorry, little baby!”

          Having a rule is one thing. Enforcing a rule is another thing. Killing children for their parents fault is yet another thing that’s way beyond common sense of justice!

          It’s a fundamental of justice that you don’t punish someone for someone else’s crime, being friend, family and including child!
          Death penalty for your parent’s giving birth to you? Come on!!

          Beside, I’m sure you can find alternative to killing: have the child adopted by another family and counted as “the” child for that family would be one, it doesn’t increase the population and does not have catastrophic consequences for an innocent newborn. You can still fine his/her biologic parents by the way.

          • Ming

            This woman and her husband already have a child, she broke the law and she also had many options open to her before it come to this.

            1- She could have had protection or taken precaution to not get pregnant
            2- she could have had it abort early to save further emotional stress.
            3- She and her husband could have got extra jobs doing whatever to raise the money to pay the fine so they could legally keep the child.
            4- She could have offer her child up for adoption by offering someone who could pay the fine to pay it and she then give the child away clearly she is not in a financial situation to be having a second child anyway if she can not afford 40,000 RMB.

            I feel so sad for the child but its death and blood is on the hands of this woman and her husband. Government are not there to be emotional they set the law and if you live in their country then you follow it..Its black and white and simple, This is not a new policy and this is not the first time it has happened. Every single person in China knows this and if they still wants to try and cheat the system they live in then do it at their own peril.

          • Notorious

            I agree. I would ask that I trade my life for my child. If population must be controlled, then I would volunteer to leave the world and ask that my husband raise the child. He could always find a new wife and the child gets to live.

          • mr. wiener

            Notorious.
            Not the most practical of solutions. The law is there for a reason and should be obeyed, but late term abortions are meant to be illegal, so the officials did not respect the law either.
            Knowing the consequences of their actions the parents definitely did not act responsibly and paid the price, but in this case the officials acted with too much zeal. There has to be a little more wiggle room here. The child being taken away from them and put up for adoption, there is a demand for orphans in China after all.
            Above all as Linette mention there has to be adequate prevention, such as sterilization and freely available birth control to avoid such grotesque and monsterous scenes as witnessed above. The reversible falopian clips , as mentioned by Rick,seem to be a very good idea, in the unhappy event of a child dying in later life.

          • Notorious

            i’m just saying mr. weiner, since the law is black and white without any wiggle room whatsoever, and the goal is to excercise strict population control, what difference does it make if it’s my life or the baby’s? The number of family members and population remains the same if the mother trades her life so her child could leave. that being said, the whole scenario is simply to point out the ludicrous aspect of the law, and the excuse of population control. if you want to control the population then create INCENTIVES for people not to want to have babies. Maybe a check at some point in their lives to become sterilized, or some type of reward for people who agree to become sterilized when they come of age. Then you will have people flocking to not have babies while the people who don’t want them can have two or three.

          • linette

            I don’t believe in forced abortion. I believe in prevention. And unfortunately yes, I believe in forced temporary or permanent sterilization if needed. It must be done to prevent tragedy like this.

          • mr. wiener

            Your sentiment is commendable Notorious, wanting to give you own life for your child’s, but your logic is ….Well lets just say leaving your husband with 2 kids to look after is not the most practical of solutions.
            Ultimately, as you have mention prevention is much better than cure.

          • red scarf

            Your analysis of the event is much alike blaming Iraqi citizens who have died in the Iraqi invasion for not overthrowing Saddam.

            USA: Oh were only after Saddam and his army not you, if you had overthrow him we wouldn’t had to drop bombs on your country, you only have yourself to blame for being in the way of a bomb.

            Whatever next, What! you can’t pay that overdue book fine because you have no income ok we’ll just sentence you to death.

            Even if they did break the law, officials should know better not to break the law either.

            The old kid polity is outdated it will end in a age heavy China,

            I suggest people watch this youtude.

            “Secret experimental city challenges China one-child policy “success”

            “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9kdQLQYT5w”

          • bomber

            Ming, I seldom reply here but your reasoning is deeply in need of a rethink.

            First of all, your retreat to the legalistic argument blaming the parents is ridiculous. There is no rule of law in China. Making a legalistic argument in this case is quite surprising. Had they had more money and paid the fine, the abortion would have been avoided. In any case, the one-child policy is a statutory crime; there is no victim that can sue for redress. It is a victim-less crime. You could say that the “society” suffers as a result of this pregnancy, but the society cannot sue the couple for damages. It’s also not like a crime like drunk driving which tangibly puts others in immediate danger.

            Additionally, hiding behind the law as stated to exonerate the perpetrators of this crime is equally cowardly and short-sighted. Just because someone puts on a costume and gets a shiny badge or certificate from someone else doesn’t absolve them of personal, moral culpability. The actors have agency.

            Let’s look at your four points and go over them one by one:

            This woman and her husband already have a child, she broke the law and she also had many options open to her before it come to this.

            1- She could have had protection or taken precaution to not get pregnant

            This is true. Still not the child’s fault. Had she waited two months and had the baby and then thrown it in the dumpster, she would have been charged with murder. Playing the normative game of saying “They should have” doesn’t absolve government thugs of the crime they have committed.

            2- she could have had it abort early to save further emotional stress.

            Emotional stress brought on by whom? Perhaps she didn’t want to have an abortion. Perhaps she wanted to have this baby. That’s her right as a human being, regardless of what the law says. If the mafia wanted to come in after the fact and extort money from them – still a crime in my opinion – at least the child would have gotten a chance to live out its life. Again, you are making the magical logical leap that an unborn child is not a human being and can be disposed of in any manner possible.

            3- She and her husband could have got extra jobs doing whatever to raise the money to pay the fine so they could legally keep the child.

            More normative nonsense, why do you assume they didn’t? Perhaps living in the gilded cage that you do prevents you from understanding how hard life can be for the poor peasants living in your own country. Again, the policy is about disincentivizing child birth through heavy monetary and social penalties. I doubt that this girl was under any illusions about the difficulty she would face in having a second child. Again, a baby is dead through no fault of its own nor the fault of its parents. THE GOVERNMENT murdered this child, and no amount of logical gymnastics and appeals to legalism will change that.

            4- She could have offer her child up for adoption by offering someone who could pay the fine to pay it and she then give the child away clearly she is not in a financial situation to be having a second child anyway if she can not afford 40,000 RMB.

            It’s not your business to judge whether or not she has the money to raise this child. It’s in fact none of your business at all. People all over China have children with less money in the bank than this. The only facts that are clear in this case are that she wanted to have a second child and then was forced by thugs to murder it.

            You go on to say how you feel bad about the abortion but since the government said it’s ok to murder a child then it’s OK. Black and white. This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard and it is the essence of cowardly thinking and barbarism that you suggest that because something is law it is inherently “right.” You undermine your own claim to absolutism by basing it on a totally relativistic phenomenon – laws. If government cadres passed a Prima nocta law giving them sexual rights to all newly-wedded females on the night of their honeymoon in order to “maintain good genes and the dominance of the Han race and social stability” would you then go and blame the husbands of those women who resisted this practice and got themselves killed?

          • anon

            bomber,

            I wonder if people are defending how the officials used force on this woman or if they’re just defending the enforcement of the OCP. Would it help if people made that clear?

            We can’t say there is no rule of law in China so its wrong to argue that the law should be followed. Rule of law begins when people following and enforcing the law, right? We can’t on one hand criticize China for not having rule of law and then on the other hand use the lack of rule of law to justify our refusal to observe and respect laws that we personally are against.

            Perhaps the most persuasive argument here is that you don’t punish a child for the crimes of the parent. Perhaps that’s why there’s the arbitrary 6 month gestation limit in the Chinese Constitution (if true)? At some point, the law decides a fetus is a person and enjoys the right of life?

            If this argument boils down to how we define when a fetus is a human life, then I fear a consensus will never be reached about what is wrong with this particular case. Those who defend the OCP and enforcement of it have already decided that an unborn child up to a certain age is deemed abortable for the good of society. If you believe a life is a life and has the right to life the moment it is conceived, then the OCP is completely out of the question. There’s almost no need to argue here because there is no room for debate.

            The situation here is that China does not see having a second baby is her right as a human being. It’s a decision made by people, the will of the majority (or rather, the will of those in power and the assent of those who would not depose them of power) over the will of the minority. If we bring in god or some sort of higher power “right” into this, its just not going to go anywhere. All “rights” are actually granted by man and society, however much we want to dress it up as being from God or whomever/whatever. It’s hard to make the “she has the right” argument here in the context where she doesn’t actually have that right. There is no magical leap here. It’s just a recognition of reality.

            Ming’s 3rd reason does sound silly on the face of things but I don’t think your response is really apt either. It boils down to Ming saying people who know the rules of the game should take responsibility for what they choose and you saying the rules of the game are bullshit. He has to convince you to accept the rules or you have to convince him to throw out the rules. His “appeals to legalism” is entirely consistent with his logical framework, so you criticizing that is ineffective. Remember, you’re resorting to a form of legalism as well, the natural laws and rights of the mother to reproduction and the unborn child to life. You just think your “law” should be above the law of China while Ming thinks otherwise. What can we do about that?

            I like your final paragraph because it is an effective emotional appeal for people to question the law against their own internal sense of right and wrong, fair or unfair, even if it can be accused of being a fallacy. The problem here is that you too have to recognize that a lot more people today don’t see population control as obviously wrong as Droit du seigneur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur & http://www.snopes.com/weddings/customs/droit.asp).

            I think you guys are exaggerating a bit to emphasize where you stand on the issue relative to the other side. I really don’t think Ming or Rick in China are advocates for people getting killed. They’re just arguing that the parents knew the law, that this could be a consequence, and they gambled anyway. I doubt they agree with the particulars of how she was treated, they just don’t think the OCP is inherently wrong and to be disobeyed.

          • bomber

            Anon, you are the consummate slave and I love that you expose your servility and obedience in such a public forum as this.

            I am not a slave. My life has value, regardless of what “society” thinks of it. I own it and it has value to me. That’s enough. As a person who didn’t grow up in the barbarism of social collectivism as you, I am wasting time and keystrokes typing this, yet I continue…

            >>I wonder if people are defending how the officials used force on this woman or if they’re just defending the enforcement of the OCP. Would it help if people made that clear?

            It wouldn’t. This woman is a human being. She had wronged no one. She and her child are the victim. Perhaps you would care to inform me as to who the victim was so I could contact them and dissuade them from pressing charges?

            We can’t say there is no rule of law in China so its wrong to argue that the law should be followed. Rule of law begins when people following and enforcing the law, right? We can’t on one hand criticize China for not having rule of law and then on the other hand use the lack of rule of law to justify our refusal to observe and respect laws that we personally are against.

            This is a hilarious equivocation and a disastrous further appeal to legalism. There is no rule of law. I can assure you of this. Perhaps you require evidence? I suggest you peruse this website and you’ll find ample examples of people arrogantly flouting the law and stamping on the souls of their precious Chinese “Brothers and Sisters.” This is terrorism. The point of arbitrarily enforcing this law is to dissuade others from having a second child. If enforcing this law was a matter of extreme importance, even the wealthy and connected woldn’t be able to flaunt it so recklessly. The wealthy and connected can furnish a few bundles of red maos and avoid this. Some law. So civilized. You should pat yourself on the back and think wistfully of your 5000 years of glorious, non-aggressive, non-imperialist, non-classist, non-racist history.

            Perhaps the most persuasive argument here is that you don’t punish a child for the crimes of the parent. Perhaps that’s why there’s the arbitrary 6 month gestation limit in the Chinese Constitution (if true)? At some point, the law decides a fetus is a person and enjoys the right of life?

            Very well, I’ll show my colors here. You can accuse me of “just having an opinion, and I’m sure at this point I will lose most people on this website. The law has no business deciding when a “fetus” becomes a “person” as technology improves, viability is pushed back, back, back. A fetus is either a person or it isn’t. Kantian relativism has so pervaded all cultures on this earth that you can’t even recognize your own thoughts as not your own. Your mind is the consummate slave of western philosophers, even if it has “Chinese Characteristics.” Abortion is an immoral choice simply because we can’t define when a “fetus” becomes a “person.” If you are familiar with American history, perhaps you are aware of the 3/5 clause in the Constitution. Simply because the law stated that black slaves counted as 3/5 of a person didn’t make that true. If you relied on your own conscience and mind to form moral judgments as opposed to hiding behind the color of the law, we might be able to have a conversation. I doubt we’d be capable of that at this point.

            The situation here is that China does not see having a second baby is her right as a human being. It’s a decision made by people, the will of the majority (or rather, the will of those in power and the assent of those who would not depose them of power) over the will of the minority. If we bring in god or some sort of higher power “right” into this, its just not going to go anywhere. All “rights” are actually granted by man and society, however much we want to dress it up as being from God or whomever/whatever. It’s hard to make the “she has the right” argument here in the context where she doesn’t actually have that right. There is no magical leap here. It’s just a recognition of reality.

            Rights are not granted by man and society. Again, here we have the difference between man and slave, you being the latter. I have rights as a human being aside and apart from what society deems. using your tyranny of the majority and consenting argument, I suppose the Japanese atrocities committed in China were totally justified, then. According to your logic, anything can be justified, including slavery, colonialism, a police state, etc. so long as there is a majority consent of sorts. I suppose North Korea is a democratic nation, as the majority assent to their slavery by not rising up and overthrowing that hilarious and embarrassing excuse for a government. More relativism from your part that only exposes how weal and malleable your own morals are.

            Ming’s 3rd reason does sound silly on the face of things but I don’t think your response is really apt either. It boils down to Ming saying people who know the rules of the game should take responsibility for what they choose and you saying the rules of the game are bullshit. He has to convince you to accept the rules or you have to convince him to throw out the rules. His “appeals to legalism” is entirely consistent with his logical framework, so you criticizing that is ineffective. Remember, you’re resorting to a form of legalism as well, the natural laws and rights of the mother to reproduction and the unborn child to life. You just think your “law” should be above the law of China while Ming thinks otherwise. What can we do about that?

            Whether or not you choose to accept it, there absolutely is a law above all others that exists outside the realm of mankind’s idiocy and foibles. I own myself. I own my mind. I own my body. Would you like to contest any of these points? Of course you wouldn’t. You’d simply remind me that there exists something called a “social contract” which people have to follow. I disagree with this sentiment 100%. Regardless of what the laws on the books say, I still own myself. If I choose to have a child, that is my right. I don’t need society’s approval to procreate, nor will I seek it. Again, one who would, or who would defend one who would is the consummate mind-slave, completely incapable of moral action on their own. As your ego is now invested int his argument, you will never yield, but that’s ok, you’re not meant to.

            I like your final paragraph because it is an effective emotional appeal for people to question the law against their own internal sense of right and wrong, fair or unfair, even if it can be accused of being a fallacy. The problem here is that you too have to recognize that a lot more people today don’t see population control as obviously wrong as Droit du seigneur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur & http://www.snopes.com/weddings/customs/droit.asp).

            You might be shocked to find that I don’t much care for what other people think. I don’t harm anyone in my life. At least I hope I don’t. When the majority of westerners thought it was ok to bring China to it’s knees and force it to concede to “unequal” treaties, was that justified? Was it justified when Japan razed and raped this country because they thought they were genetically superior? democracy is a catchphrase. It simply means authorized use of force by the many against the fewer. Why the need for violence? If democracy is your justification for crimes such as this, I pity you. Democracy is a shibboleth. It is utter dogshit. It’s simply another excuse for the manipulation of the many by the more intelligent and able few.

            Your last paragraph was pretty innocuous. But I will conclude with this. Westerners never needed an OCP. Neither did Japan nor Korea nor Taiwan. Yet China does. It’s a question of culture. The culture is primitive and barbaric and this needs primitive and barbaric means of maintaining itself. First there were the fertility cults of Mao, now there is the selfishness cult of state-capitalism. Yet nowhere is there any balance, any way out. It’s barbarism and slavery all the way down. And the best part is, Chinese people have the gall to get misty-eyed and lovey-dovey about the culture and traditions that keep their minds so firmly rooted in the dirt.

            Cheers!

          • anon

            What the fuck did I just read?

            I didn’t grow up “in the barbarism of social collectivism” and I’m not mainland Chinese, you nimrod. If you took your ass out of your anus and read what I wrote, you’d realize:

            1. I was trying to help people differentiate between what I think Rick and Ming are arguing (defending the legitimacy of the OCP) versus what I think some people may be mistaking them to be arguing (defending the actions of the officials ).

            2. What equivocation? I didn’t say China has rule of law or that it doesn’t NOT have rule of law, I was saying rule of law has to begin somewhere and it is a fallacious argument to “on one hand criticize China for not having rule of law and then on the other hand use the lack of rule of law to justify our refusal to observe and respect laws that we personally are against.” Put the big words down before you hurt yourself, bomber.

            3. You’re an ass. I have repeatedly addressed the issue of what defines a person throughout my comments on this post. I’m not depriving you of the right to define a person as you please, I’m just saying that you’re arguing with people who may not define it the same way as you do so the disagreement between you guys boils down to this lack of common ground from which to build consensus on. I fully recognize that there are people who interpret an unborn baby as sanctified life. In fact, I find the arguments for it very appealing. However, I recognize that the world does not operate so clearly in black and white terms. You can indeed accuse the world of moral relativism (I have! ALL THE TIME!) but to have a worthwhile discussion about the issue requires acknowledging the premises involved by each side…which I’ve been trying to do. You, on the other, seem content to jumping to conclusions without actually reading.

            4. You’re just being unrealistic at this point.

            5. Yeah, unrealistic (from my perspective) but I do actually like your rhetoric. Reminds me of Hongjian.

            6. I think you’re willfully ignoring the point and limits of my comments and broadening them to an absurdity. I still like your rhetoric though. I like the eloquence.

            7. Your last paragraph is just retarded. The interesting thing is that Japan and Korea have the interesting problem of wanting to encourage population growth, which itself is a bundle of philosophical conundrums. Ironically, further, the West deals with scarcity of resource issues all the time. The OCP is fundamentally a scarcity of resource issue. Of course, there are certain pillars of your grand personal philosophy that, as we can see, make it inconducive for you to appreciate the complexities of a reality that may be grey instead of black and white. Such black and white philosophies have a historical tendency to hurt people. Perhaps we should be thankful that you’re likely not in a position of power?

          • jin

            its illegal to force abortion at later stage of pregnancy, and so, what these 3 government dogs did was illegal and they got fired for it.

          • jin

            read this on the internet.
            Feng’s abortion took place late in her pregnancy, a practice that is prohibited by China’s laws on population and family planning.

            and the OCP is only covers about 35 percent of Chinese, mostly those living in urban areas.

          • Nyancat

            lets see now if we can get down to the bottom of this whole mess and how i can ultimately make it the governments fault. Rural people have numerous kids because thru a lack of education they don’t know any better, rural kids don’t have good teachers as pointed out in an earlier article about Cui and most definitely no sex ed, this in turn leads to adults who know little to nothing about taking contraceptive measures, cycle repeats. So yes the government is at fault here for instituting a law that doesn’t have a proper base, it’s like a building with a bad foundation, so the lack of attention given to rural areas and their population have ultimately caused the OCP to crumble. The END.

          • Strangerland

            I think you’re spoilt by your government. But a lot of countries, across Asia, have governments that would not coo their citizen when they behave and be patient about their wrongdoings. “You naughty little boy! DOn’t do this again okay? *Kiss*.” Excuse me, but lots of Asian and non-asian governments would be those stern parents who would hit you ocne you break the rule, no matter what. Yes it’s heartless. Welcome to the rest of the world. As I travel across the world and see a lot of kind of societies, I really do think westerners from developed countries are babied by their cooing parents-their governments- and unaware of how lucky they are. You break the rule, you don;t get the consequence most of the time, but a slap at the wrist once twice thrice…….a lot of non-developed governments would slap you hard if you break the rule and do make you face the consequence, no matter how cruel they seem to be. Yes, they’re cruel and heartless. Welcome to the real world, kids….

          • tai wai

            Excuse me, but lots of Asian and non-asian governments would be those stern parents who would hit you ocne you break the rule, no matter what.

            Government aren’t the people’s parents. They are the people’s servants, and should be reminded of that.

          • Strangerland

            Besides Suicidal Thought, are you trying to say that they should kill the little baby’s parents because it’s their fault, not the baby? Sorry kids, we have to kill your parents because they’re breaking the rule. We just can’t have more people on board. But because you’re not guilty, we’ll let you live and be orphan the rets of your life. Come on, you can’t be serious. I know your knee jerk reaction is to let the baby live! It’s not its fault! We all want to spare this little soul if we could. We all want to develop that perfect system to punish the wrongdoers without moral dilemma. But telling them to break the rule is one thing, enforcing the rule is another thing? You’re not living in the real world buddy. In real world, rules are not made to break. Those who breaks the rule- face the consequence(tragically, the baby also have to bear the consequence of its parents’ mistake). As I said, I notice that in current western countries with governments as proud parents, there seem to be generic situation where the citizens treat rules as if they treat their biological parents’. Yes I break the rule, I’m naughty but you love me anyway~ don’t cha don’t cha? And you’re not going to really really punish me badly right?
            Yup, that kind of tendency. While the other governments in “barbaric” countries still enforce their rules in draconian ways. Again, do I support them? No, not really- who likes these draconian rules and their enforcers anyway. But in real world, everything is gray. You just have to realize that in this kind of dilemmatic situation, not all is black and white, and it’s really difficult to know what we have to do in such tragedy.

          • Strangerland

            Tai Wai, I’m talking about them being parents in metaphor. Ofcourse they’re public servants, but really- we can argue about how to treat the servants and stuff, because with that servant connotation we will have people who think they could do whatever they want to the servant- hence the lack of respect and attitude toward them and their damn rules, but in my case I am talking about government as rule-enforcers. The governments are there to protect its citizens interests, to make sure their country lives in competition with ther countries. They’re just like parents in that sense, you know how parents are. Again, I’m very very emotional about this news and it makes me depressed- I really really hate this pick your side arguments that everyone got roped in, because I really want to pick this little baby’s side instead of its parents or its government….it really depress me. What I don’t want is to have people painting this as black-or-white issue, because it is not. We all are in deep shade of grey this time, and I don’t know if any of you would ever realize that such dilemma would probably exist in the near future in a lot of countries. Given the human population explosion for the last century. This is a no-win situation, anyone can see that. I dread the day this kind of dilemma become a situation in every shores, and then what would become of humanity….? God Bless you all(for those who believes in Him), may we find the light at the end of the tunnel.

        • CT

          Ming wrote: “The woman did NOT do the right thing..she knew she is carrying an illegal child and she also had a window of 5-6 months to work extra jobs to raise the fine money to keep her child. She and her husband did not do any of this..they just wanted to get away with it.”

          Her husband was working and I doubt she herself could be earning much more than RMB 1000 per month. That would take over three years to earn the 40,000, not considering other expenses. The policy is implemented in a way that extorts money from those without any. If it was in any way humane or reasonable, it would allow for the fine to be paid back over time. Instead of kidnapping and beating a woman and injecting her with toxins to kill the baby.

          “The officials asked her to pay fines worth more than $6,000 but when the money wasn’t given, they forced Jianmei to sign an abortion “consent” form. They inked her thumb and pressed it forcibly against the form.

          Toxins were then injected into the brain of her unborn daughter.

          “I could feel the baby jumping around inside me all the time, but then she went still,” the mother recounted to Ling.

          The forced abortion took place on June 3. After enduring painful contractions, she gave birth on June 4 to her deceased child.

          Jiyuan said his wife pulled a knife against herself while thinking about her child. Feeling helpless, he said, “What can I do? I’m just an average worker. I have no power.””

          • Ming

            Bomber,

            This a news story on a public social internet website and i have every right just as everyone else to post my comments so your suggestion its none of my business then its also none of yours what i post about it?

            If the local government have illegally killed this child then of course justice should be carried out on them. You can call these people whatever you like MAFIA, THUGS ETC but all country have law enforcers, do you think the legal systems in USA or any other country is perfect?.

            The death of this 7 month of child is tragic and sad and no one in their right mind would think other wise. But this tragic event would NEVER have taken place if the parents took some responsibility to make sure this didn’t happen.

            Asians in general and yes i include myself in this would try and get away with murder if they could. Its no secret that the biggest market for fake goods and illegal downloads is in Asia. Why i make this point is that its not easy to control 1.4 billion people and try to get them to obey the laws.

            I do not believe the child should have been killed instead she should have been given the chance to give birth and if she still can not pay the fee then put the child up for adoption..i rather see this option then the tragic way it has turned out, either way this woman and her husband should still be charged and punished. Law is there to prevent and discourage as much as punishment for the crime.

          • anon

            CT,

            I think you bring up something very relevant and one that I think many of the Chinese netizens themselves were focusing on, which is that they see the enforcement of this law by local authorities as a corrupt way to fleece the public, that they’re not so much enforcing the law for the good of the public but merely as a way to line their own pockets, as a tax upon the people. This isn’t dissimilar to people accusing American cops of writing traffic tickets to meet quotas or Mexican cops of pulling people over for bribes.

            The question then is how could this be avoided? No fine? Transparency in who gets fined and how the fine money is used? Would there be privacy issues there?

          • Rick in China

            @CT I had to pay a farmer 750rmb to use a wobbly sledge hammer for 2 afternoons to break down several walls in my newest apartment. That seemed to be the “normal” cost after consulting a bunch of others who are doing construction. He had no skills. He just swung a hammer and did some labour-intensive work for a couple of afternoons. The salary situation in China isn’t so ultra-gloom-n-doom as it seems, at least in cities. Often, people here borrow money also, and even farmers have more money than you may think – often a lot more than English teachers in the bank, surprising as it may seem to the ‘western eye’.

      • Ning

        Nazicard fail.
        But the jew-analogy is interesting and brings the whole question to a global level: is it right for a society to control its population, so that natural selection doesn’t have to finish the job?
        What I mean is that in the current dysfunctional jewland a part of the population does not work or pay taxes, but has an average of 8-9 children/family, while the harworking, tax-paying, miluim-serving citizens have small families but receive crap and declining education and healthcare for all their efforts. This situation is a huge extrapolation from the similar problems other countries are facing, and the spilling of surplus populations from 3rd to first world… While the % of net payers globally is shrinking, it seems that the families most ill-equipped for child-rearing are having the most children, and demanding that others foot the bill for their irresponsibility.

        I sort of get Ming’s point of view, it’s a similar argument that I like to make whenever someone is trying to get money from me for the starving children of developing country X: Those starving kids are starving because their parents/fathers made the choice to have sex without counting the acres. Remember Live Aid in the 80′s? http://www.leeds.ac.uk/demographic_entrapment/Ethiopia.htm

        • craash

          Ming: She is a VICTIM. She is a farmer, with her farmer husband living/working on a farm. Farmers are allowed to have 2 children.

          The only thing is, she had permission from the local planning center to have a second child, but forgot to fill out some paperwork.

          She is a victim.

          • Ming

            If this is the case then yes i agree she should be compensated for the illegal acts on her. I was only commenting on the story as it was written.

            I see poor homeless or children with extremely poor families all the time across China and it really does break my heart. I love kids and one day would love to set up a home that could take care as many as i could. Adults must be held accountable for their decisions and actions, yes the child should never be killed but the parents must be punished for acting so recklessly and stupid.

            I am not saying children from poor families do not live a happy and fruitful lives but 90% are not that lucky..the circle of poverty is growing at a alarming rate.

            I rather see no children on the street then a child that is living in such state of poverty. You do not get to choose your parents so society must have some law to protect each other from making bad choices for yourself and further generation.

            No one wants to see this, No ones enjoy reading about these horrors.

          • anon

            Wait, where does it say she is a farmer? I read that she’s from Ankang city? So perhaps she has an urban hukou? I also thought rural Han Chinese were sometimes permitted to have two children, not necessarily allowed.

          • Dan

            Care to give a source for this “permission”? Because everything I have read flatly states that they were denied from the get go and chose to do it anyways.

        • Alan

          and even farmers have more money than you may think – often a lot more than English teachers in the bank, surprising as it may seem to the ‘western eye’.

          @ Rick in China:

          And here we go all around the roundabout again!

          I like your posts, and you seem a decent chap, worlds apart from Elijah, just don’t understand your contempt for english teachers in China, as opposed to experts like yourselves on contracts.

          Sorry mate, but I just don’t buy into what you say. FT’s don’t have to bash down walls for 3 days straight just to earn 750 rmb. Most also have free housing and can leave at the end of their contracts to go back to a country with welfare if they choose….can those same chinese migrant workers, even if they have a million rmb in the bank do the same, and get the same welfare…even a broke ass loser FT who is lucky enough to be born in the UK or Canada, has still won in the lottery of life compared to your average chinese citizen. I know that comes across as arrogant and colonial, but it is just the way it is….

          Nothing personal against you btw, but I don’t see what difference it makes if someone likes teaching english in China, as long as they are a well balanced individual. I am not as rich as you, nor perhaps other chinese, came from a working class family, but I was taught the value of hard work and money, I have some bonds back home, and also some property in trust, but then money is not everything, as we can’t take it with us, nor do I think it should define a person, stuff is just stuff, no desire for ipads/iphones/lv and so on……

          Each to his own, but my path is my own, I respect yours, just asking you respect others chosen routes.

          Sincerely,
          Peace,
          A

          • anon

            Alan, you need to stop obsessing over Elijah. Disagree with him as you will on his comments but constantly bringing him up in outside conversations is neurotic. We all have people we dislike on here but the constant irrelevant snide mentions is obsessive. Just my opinion.

          • Alan

            Alan, you need to stop obsessing over Elijah. Disagree with him as you will on his comments but constantly bringing him up in outside conversations is neurotic.

            @ Anon:

            But what if neurotic and obsessive is the way you live?

            I only sleep 2-3 hours a night, due to insomnia and lack of sleeping pills in China. I also don’t suffer fools gladly.

            Elijah gets his knickers in a twist because I post here, but that is democracy surely?

            He started this whole thing, I won’t back down from him, either way, thanks for your post….

          • Ming

            maybe Alan has the hots for Elijah

          • Rick in China

            Dude. I’m not bashing on *specific English teachers*, really, get over it. I have lots of friends who love it. I use it as a general descriptor for many of which who are NOT the ones who love it – the ones who are here for quick money cheap beer and easy hos, can barely speak the language itself, but since they’re white and from a “native speaking” country can make a quick buck – rather than work at a gas station back home. It by no means encompasses all who teach.
            Separately, re: the financial state, I’d wager the migrant worker who bashed down my walls saves more per month than a higher-per-hour paid teacher on average ;)

          • Rick in China

            By the way, I’m essentially a migrant worker lately, due to being on bail I’m working on my apartment myself – foreman, and doing a lot of “labour” work alongside my laborers. It’s not just to save cash, it’s because I enjoy it. I’m also from a working class family, and while puttying and sanding / doing electrical is far away from software development and management there’s a certain satisfaction to doing a builders job and doing it right. I’ve nothing against the migrant workers, as I have nothing against English teachers who love their jobs…I think you’ve got me wrong :D

            I kinda like bringing stacks of beer and water to supply them with liquid, and chatting while we do things – learning how they do, and showing them how I do, discussing differences, finding out about their normal lives outside of work, and having a laugh together – I’m not some kinda elitist who thinks anyone outside my socioeconomic circle is a piece of shit as you seem to think.

          • Ming

            Most Laowai falls into one of 3 categories

            1- They can not make it back in their own country because either competition is too fierce for work, women and living standards. So they migrate to a poor country to make themselves more important. They come with their higher then thou attitude, grammar Nazi even tho most can only speak one language (English is my 3rd). But of course being white they are more clever then local Chinese.
            2- They come to exploit the cheap work force and hoard what money they can make, and whilst doing so treat the local government and people with contempt.
            3- Old pedophiles – no need to explain this group of people

            I have personally met many laowai teachers and most wont even get pass a interview at a university back in their own country.

            Lets face some facts laowai are the lowest of the social economical group back home but in china they are middle class lol. Just don’t touch my Jaguar with your dirty cheap bikes on the road then we are all good :-).

          • Alan

            @ RIC:

            Forgive me, for I am guilty of the beer part. I also like to play devils advocate and there are not too many wai guo peng you around these parts to have a beer and some banter with, so these boards act as a release valve for me, so to speak. It is nothing personal, just I get a bit wound up after a few beers, lol.

            I use it as a general descriptor for many of which who are NOT the ones who love it – the ones who are here for quick money cheap beer and easy hos, can barely speak the language itself, but since they’re white and from a “native speaking” country can make a quick buck – rather than work at a gas station back home.

            Well you make good points here. I do love it, I love imparting knowledge, I love the curious looks on their faces, I love the look of joy when they find something amusing/interesting. Even though you can’t reach all of them, I do find it rewarding. Cheap beer, thought we had been over this one, yes, I am guilty of that, but only because there aren’t many other options in the town I am in. The one main bar sells small bottles of harbin at 25rmb a pop, is hot, smokey and the sound system sucks. That same 25rmb would get me a crate of beer at home. Plus I consider myself frugal, and think paying what is essentially 2 pounds fifty pence for a beer, in a developing country, insanity. Just my wu mao….again each to their own.

            It by no means encompasses all who teach.

            Agreed, but if you think China is bad, you ain’t seen nothing until you seen the ex-saudi crowd….they are worse than any FT I have seen in China, I shit ye not.

            Separately, re: the financial state, I’d wager the migrant worker who bashed down my walls saves more per month than a higher-per-hour paid teacher on average ;)

            Can you break this down? Not being an arse about it, just generally interested. 750rmb for two afternoons. 150rmb an hour for teaching english….I can’t quite see it myself, anyway, thanks for your responses and a happy weekend man.

            A.

          • Alan

            I guess I have got you wrong, and for that I apologize. Nothing wrong with being from a working class family, that is why I have a lot of hate for Margaret Thatcher, she destroyed whole working class communities in the UK imho.

            It’s not just to save cash, it’s because I enjoy it. I’m also from a working class family, and while puttying and sanding / doing electrical is far away from software development and management there’s a certain satisfaction to doing a builders job and doing it right.

            Never worked as a builder, but while living in Israel worked my balls off with a palestinian guy doing “rennos” to use aussie slang, or just lugging building supplies up flights of stairs in 35 degree desert heat, chipping off skirting board tiles, sweeping up, general labour work. Tough, but enjoyable for as you say, the bonds between workmates, my boss was an Israeli guy married to a english gal, we got on well, and my co worker was an arab, even though we all had different cultures, I’d do it all over again, no doubt.

            I’ve nothing against the migrant workers, as I have nothing against English teachers who love their jobs…I think you’ve got me wrong :D

            Agreed. Again I had my beer and unhappy hat on, as I mentioned, I just like to play devils advocate in that state.

            I kinda like bringing stacks of beer and water to supply them with liquid, and chatting while we do things – learning how they do, and showing them how I do, discussing differences, finding out about their normal lives outside of work, and having a laugh together

            That is good, and rewarding. Also sorry to hear you are on bail. hope that works out.

            Regards,
            A

          • Alan

            @ Ming: I need a strong coffee before I respond to your post, because I can’t quite actually believe you truly believe what you have just posted here.

            1- They can not make it back in their own country because either competition is too fierce for work, women and living standards. So they migrate to a poor country to make themselves more important. They come with their higher then thou attitude, grammar Nazi even tho most can only speak one language (English is my 3rd). But of course being white they are more clever then local Chinese.

            Can’t make it? As I said, welfare state, while it is no fun, noone need be on the streets in the UK….why would someone spend hundreds of pounds on a plane fight, all the hassle of getting a visa and so on, just to come to China….yes being out of work sucks, but living standards, sorry China just cannot compare to the UK, noise, pollution and so on…..and who goes to a country just for it’s women? If I was to do that, I certainly would not come to China which has some of the most cunning and deceptive women on the face of the planet…as Rick says, get over it.

            2- They come to exploit the cheap work force and hoard what money they can make, and whilst doing so treat the local government and people with contempt.

            Oh the old fear of the other line. They come to exploit us, errr, Chinese people exploit Chinese people too, deal with that fact. The gardener at my school is 62, and works 7 days a week, and basically gets ordered about left right and centre by this cadre who deems it his job to make his life a living hell. Berates him at every opportunity. Don’t talk to me about laowais treating the local government and people with contempt. When I had my own training centre, I treated the other two staff members with the highest of respect, something their Chinese boss had never once shown them…..

            Need I mention the amount of times Chinese businessmen try to cheat foreigners? And pay bribes and so on?

            No, even if one laowai cheats and hoards, that is miniscule to what your fellow countrymen do in comparison, worlds apart….

            3- Old pedophiles – no need to explain this group of people

            Prove this last part with statistics, you just cannot.

            I have personally met many laowai teachers and most wont even get pass a interview at a university back in their own country.

            You know this for certain? Don’t blame them, blame the system that does not even check degrees, and yes I do know this to be a fact….but if China becomes more like HK/Macau/Taiwan, then yes, I would agree with you….but as we all know that is never going to happen, not in a million years.

            Lets face some facts laowai are the lowest of the social economical group back home but in china they are middle class lol.

            Yes, we are middle class in China, and we live accordingly. Should we sleep on the streets and only eat rice noodles?

            Just don’t touch my Jaguar with your dirty cheap bikes on the road then we are all good :-).

            Well, I don’t like the traffic here, so I don’t even have a bike. What makes you think some foreigners don’t have cars in China, quite a lot do….

          • mr. wiener

            What group do you fall into Ming ? [just curious] Foreign educated?
            Returned Chinese? Forgive my impertinence, but since you don’t mind pigeon holing laowai I feel it is only fair if you tell us where you fit in to the social stata.
            I promise not to give you jaguar a good keying whilst I’m cycling past on my flying pigeon :)

          • Rick in China

            @Ming/Alan
            RE: Laowai socioeconomic class
            There’s a big difference between long-term laowai/business imports and those Ming may meet at a local laowai bar. There are many very successful, educated, and generally great laowai here… there are also lots who fit into holes mentioned above. Just as Chinese. There are many successful, educated, and generally great locals. There are also shitbags who are as bad or worse than the worse of the laowai. Making these type of comments doesn’t really matter, it’s not saying everyone fits into one or the other, in general every country has both good and bad, and the ‘open window’ in China has allowed every type in, that’s just how it is…live with it, suck it up, and stick with your own group of solid droogs who you can trust and fuck the rest – leave ‘em to each other.

          • Ming

            Alan,

            I have lived in London and are you seriously telling me there is no homeless people and abused children?

            Yes in general western countries have better living standards for MOST people but that was never my point. Most people who have come into china to work move up the social ladder in china because of what the dollar can buy to the RMB.

            As for the women..take a walk down any shanghai street and there is your answer..fat ugly old white guys holding hands with thin slim young Chinese..this happens all over the world but since i am in china and so are you i am just using china as an example.

            Teachers in china, yes i know this from experience not just talking to the teachers but also the students that come from the schools they teach at. Put it this way i wont hire the students they teach to clean my office toilets.

            I rarely see a Laowai driving any other car then a shit bomb or a push bike.I don’t really care either way how successful laowai’s are in china just don’t come with your cheap education and white KKK mentality and expect Chinese to obey and listen to your wisdom.

          • mr. wiener

            Alan.
            I’m starting to get some hostility vibes from Ming, If this were star trek I’d say:
            It’s no use Capt. He’s raised his ” You aren’t Chinese you can’t possibly understand us” shield.
            And he drives a jaguar…I’ll bet he smokes a pipe too….HOLY SHIT BATMAN!! I think Ming is really Yang Rui!!

          • Alan

            @ Ming: Facepalm all the way.

            just don’t come with your cheap education and white KKK mentality

            KKK, as I am british, there is no such organisation in the UK, and even if there was, I would want no part of it. Don’t claim to know me and what I believe.

            and expect Chinese to obey and listen to your wisdom.

            I don’t expect Chinese to obey me, I do expect them to listen to me and respect me as an equal though. Mutual co-operation is NOT a one way street, something you should learn, but can’t////

          • whiskersthecat

            I am confused about why someone in the white KKK (as opposed to the black or yellow KKK?) would come to China? It seems completely contrary to their entire belief system. So strange.

          • mr. wiener

            Whiskers.
            Well Leblanc the racist wall street lawyer did, apparently he was hoping to find people who hated black people as much as he does. From what I understand he was disappointed as most of the people who hated noirs weren’t that gone on blancs either.
            As to the rest of us western rabble we’ve come to china for a variety of reasons. The smart ones who aren’t just chasing tail and getting drunk have stayed and have a love\hate relationship with the place. Being nosy parkers and wanting to export or culture and ideas is what everyone does. But I can’t see mass exodus’ of westerners emptying out Europe and the Americas headed for china anytime soon.
            Ming is an elitist. He looks down on the poor of China , who he has very little affinity with, or even a common culture , but he also resents freeloading westerners who he has lumped together as parasites.
            I’d be reeeeeaaally interested to hear your history and situation Ming.

          • Boris

            Minge
            …the merkinless!
            A close associate of Biggus Rickus.

          • Rick in China

            RE: “A close associate of Biggus Rickus.”
            Your name is….Boris. I don’t even need to touch that one.

          • tai wai

            Lets face some facts laowai are the lowest of the social economical group back home but in china they are middle class lol.

            You jelly? I think you jelly.

            Poor guy. You were born rich enough, but just not white enough. And your culture values white people as much as it does rich people!

            Aw. Are you Buddhist? If so, better luck next life!

          • Ming

            mr. wiener to your question what group I fall into, the group that respect and follow the law of the country he lives in.

            Privately educated in China and aboard all paid for by my parents who worked hard to give their children the life they wanted for themselves.

            I have a mixed of friends from all around the world, I respect people who have their own option and thoughts..clearly some of you laowai’s on this website seems to not understand this concept.

            I never once supported the action of the OCP in this case, i have not and would never say killing a child after 2n or 3rd trimester is acceptable. Before the end of the 3rd trimester its up to the women if she want to have the child of not.

            I believe in women rights i believe in a fair wage for a fair days work. In this case the point is that parents needs to be held accountable.

            Being a victim of your own making and a victim is two different thing..This case and any other cases where Chinese woman are having a second child illegally they making themselves the victims as soon as they fell pregnant and do not have the means to keep it. Skirting the law because you believe you have a high % chance getting away with it is a risk not worth taking with a life.

          • Ming

            # opinion correction for all you spelling Nazis

          • Ming

            Alan, You must live in some fantasy world UK is full of hate groups Nazi and KKK all have members in UK and all commonwealth countries.

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/we-expose-vile-racist-biker-as-british-86445

            This is just one story there are many many..just Google it.

          • mr. wiener

            Ming.
            Much respect to you and especially to your hardworking and selfless parents. No doubt you worked hard while you where studying abroad, hitting the books, keeping your grades up and repaying your parents for the excellent oportunities they gave you their thrift and sacrifice.
            Did you ever[in the time you were OS] hear any ignorant western fool spouting off about any some sterotypes he’s heard and was repeating as gospel truths? You know, stuff like “they all deal drugs, they eat cats, their dicks are tiny etc”. Didn’t that just burn your arse? And with good reason, you’d of had every reason to feel this way..The stupid empty headed arrogant arseholes. Where do they get the audacity to criticise a bunch of hard working people based on a few chance encounters and some stuff they’d seen on the news?
            That’s kinda how I feel when I hear you criticising English teachers.[don't worry, I haven't done that job in years]
            Granted there are drunken culturally deadened skirt chasers, just like I’m sure their are asian gangsters. But to to tar a whole group of people with one steriotype is not only unfair, but stupid too.
            Any disagreement we have about population control , blame and poverty are incedental, but the prejudice you have exposed in yourself is fundamental.
            I wouldn’t want a bunch of vapid foreigners criticising my country either [Like "Pink" did about "mullsying"], but I’d hesitate about stooping to the level you did.

          • Boris

            ‘Your name is… Boris. I don’t even need to touch that one.’
            We’ve already established I’m too old for your tastes.

          • Boris

            ‘Are you a Buddhist?’
            Often referred to as THE PATH OF COMPASSION.
            Take a wild fucking guess about that one!!!!

          • slim

            @ Ming

            You are a fake.

          • Fu ZhiGao

            @Ming

            你别装酷好不好? 只开一辆捷豹还看不起人家。真是傻逼。

          • tai wai

            Privately educated in China and aboard all paid for by my parents who worked hard to give their children the life they wanted for themselves.

            Good for you! You won the vagina lottery.

            Still not white, though.

            Granted there are drunken culturally deadened skirt chasers, just like I’m sure their are asian gangsters. But to to tar a whole group of people with one steriotype is not only unfair, but stupid too.

            See, I LIKE the drunken deadend skirt chasing laowai. I also like the spitting, queue jumping, shouting mainlanders. That’s why I live in the mainland.

            Most of the world considers mainlanders rude, dirty, and low class. Me, I love the 大老粗. Mainland or laowai.

          • donscarletti

            Granted there are drunken culturally deadened skirt chasers, just like I’m sure their are asian gangsters

            Have you ever watched a movie from Hong Kong? I recommend Infernal Affairs (无间道)if you haven’t. Asian gangsters in movies are cooler than gangsters of other races, get better pussy, more money and more nuanced violence.

            Plus, you’re Australian right? Where do you think your Saturday night rave-party treats are coming from? Bikies in the outer suburbs just cook that stuff up in a saucepan?

            Chasing skirt works better when you don’t teach English though, since Chinese women find high-income to be erotic. That said, if you are female, blond, young and moderately attractive, I know at least two guys would would pay really well for your services.

          • mr. wiener

            Don.
            Gangsters are only cool if you believe everything you see in the movies. the realities I’ve seen seem to be less than glamorous.
            I only did weed and acid back in the day anywho.
            Women will still sleep with foreigners regardless of income. Good news if you are black and can fake a rasta accent or European and can fake french or Swedish…Hell even a yank accent will get you laid in Oz.
            We used to say the prerequisite for getting laid in Asia was to have white skin and a pulse , this is still true to varying degrees today.

    • matt

      “the bottom line is it’s totally well known and she tried to get around it without the means to do so – so…the fault is hers”

      We don’t know how the policy has been implemented in her town. She might have had a reasonable expectation that she’d get off with nothing more than a light fine. It’s entirely possible that Zhengjia town rarely enforced the one child policy or they usually only collected small fines. And then the village cadres had to make an example of someone when they got a bad performance review.

      • Whiteboy

        It amazes me how the “one child policy” is so differently enforced in different parts of China.

        For example, my wife is from Guangdong province and she has _6_ siblings. Her father’s brothers all have more than 1 child.

        As far as I know, there never was any issue with hukou and begin “legal”.

        So those who actually live in China, is it always the case of what connections you have?

        • Ming

          I think its a combination of money, connection and LUCK! I know of low income families who have 2-3 children and pretty sure they didn’t pa any fines or fee for them.

        • anon

          Whiteboy,

          The policy was instituted in 1978 or 1979 I think. How old is your wife and her siblings? If over 30, maybe they were exempt. Also, maybe her family fell under any number of exemptions such as rural parents or something. How many brothers and sisters does she have? Is it a case where it was all girls until there was finally a boy?

        • Fu ZhiGao

          Whiteboy:

          anon is right about when the policy was implemented as far as I know. There are also exceptions for recognized minorities in China, as well as people who live in urban areas. Some people also do not legally report their extra children (no shenfenzhen) or have them “adopted” or raised by neighbors (with a shenfenzhen but lie about who the parents are). Some other areas are more lax or less interested in strict policy adherence.

          What part of Guangdong province is your wife from?

      • Sponge Monkey

        Most Laowai falls into one of 3 categories

        @Ming – This was the creme de la posts. Should I make an observation about most Chinese studying abroad (not aboard)?

        I have to stop reading Ming. My skin is starting to turn green and my shirt is getting small.

    • Quinon

      Rick, I fail to understand why there are apologists for this type of government behavior. Yes, a “one child policy” is a legitimate goal to have, but (as far as I can tell) the primary complaint has to do with how it is carried out. You are right that the fetus is not dead because the government wants to encourage parents to only have one child, but you are wrong that the way in which the one child policy has been executed is a side issue. Her decision to violate the one child policy did not magically cause an abortion; a government official forced her to abort her child.

      Look, I hope we can all agree that forced abortions (or sterilizations, for that matter) are extraordinarily repugnant and inhumane. If not, well, then you are a terrible human being.

      The next question is whether the government’s decision to force an abortion is justified. Yes, this woman broke a rule. But instead of just blaming the victim, we also need to look at whether the government response is appropriate. After all, even when someone is “at fault,” the punishment has to fit the crime. If the punishment for jaywalking were the death penalty, I’m sure you would take issue with that. Or if they castrated you for having any sex whatsoever (or masturbating, if that’s your thing). Or if they forcibly removed your stomach for eating vegetables/rice/meat (pick whichever one you actually enjoy). Can we agree on this point as well?

      If so, then can you explain to me why – given that we can agree that forced abortions are revolting, disgusting affronts to bodily integrity, and that punishments must be proportional to the offense committed – violation of the one-child policy justifies a forced abortion? I accept that this woman has violated a legitimate government policy, but what else would you condone? The death penalty for having a second child? Raping her in public “as an example to others”?

      PS Also, as a factual matter, I’m pretty sure the rule in this province is that if you go over quota you pay a fine of 40K, NOT that they abort your fetus. And while she didn’t pay the 40K, I’m pretty sure that the usual punishment for failing to pay a fine is not that they abort your unborn fetus. Which means that the government official decided, within his own discretion, to do this. (You do know why, right? Promotions at the county level hinge heavily on how few children are born in violation of the one-child policy)

      What’s more, the one-child policy has not been _generally_ enforced with compelled abortions in years, so you can’t even say that this poor woman “knew what was coming.”

      • Ming

        The woman is NOT the victim. The VICTIM IS THE DEAD CHILD that happened due to the mother action. She is the killer and she should get jail time for her part in this disgusting situation, i will go so far as to say in my eyes she is a murder. Even after knowing the law she went ahead and broke it anyway..and in this case the result is a dead 7 month child. She is a child murder.

        The more i read about this the more annoyed i am with this scum of a woman and her weak scum of a husband.

        • moop

          Ming, the victim is the dead child and the woman. the woman is not a murderer. late term abortions are illegal in china as where these officials other actions like, oh, i dont know, BEATING HER

        • Brett Hunan

          Ming,

          Just because the baby is a victim, does not mean that the woman is also not a victim. They are both victims of the system.

          The woman is not a murderer. The officials who illegally and forcefully aborted the baby are killers. 20-30 people had to “escort”(drag and beat) her to the hospital. They bricked her door. They had 4 guards watching her around the clock.

          Yes, she got pregnant. No, she decided she did not want to abort the baby. Also, no, she did not have 40,000 RMB to pay for the baby’s registration. Is any of this proof that her husband and herself could not raise the child on their income? Is any of this reason enough that officials decided to inject her with medication to force premature labor?

          I will spare you the economics/statistics/demographics with-regards-to-birth-rate-and-population-growth lectures and end simply with: The mother was not a “child murder[er]“. The officials acted illegally.

          Your droll remarks lead me to believe you are unable to sympathize and might just be a product (or victim) of the “One-child Policy” yourself.

          • Ming

            Brett,

            1- No i am not the only child, my parents had 3 but they paid the legal fees that is by law required.
            2- She is not a victim in anyway..she was not raped she was not forced to get pregnant, she did so on her own free will and knowing full well that it was illegal.
            3- If she did so greedy to have a second child which is illegal, then,
            A- No one had to bricked her up
            B – No one had to force her to abort
            C- There would be no story to tell and no news
            D – Sympathy and legal law has nothing to do with it, just as much as i d not feel sorry for people who knowing kill someone and get the death penalty.
            4- China has every right to make law what they feel is right, like it or not (and you will not please everyone) that’s the law and you live by it or you remove yourself from it.

            You are not educating me in anything, your opinion is based on emotional rubbish. The only justice now if they jail her and her husband and take away their child and placed it into a foster home. This creature deserved all she got and more.

          • moop

            ming, you are losing credibility everytime you type something.

          • Quinon

            This “Ming” guy is either totally beyond help or is trolling us all very effectively.

            I’m going to assume it’s the latter, if only because I don’t want to believe that human beings are capable of such…mental incapacity.

          • mr. wiener

            *Ouch!* You must be lactose intolerant of the milk of human kindness.
            Assuming you are Chinese I’m happy to see from most of the netizins remarks above have you are firmly in the minority.
            With your logic in mind:
            Tibet had it coming.
            The protesters in Tianamen bought it on themselves.
            How dare those Phillipinos live near OUR oil.

            Can’t think of anything else for now. Stick with soy milk in the future:)

          • Appalled@everything

            Ming is an English murder, as well as a logic murder, as well as a sympathy murder, as well as a jerk.

          • anon

            Wow, Ming, I wouldn’t go that far…and that’s really damn far. Your argument for laying such extreme blame on her is based on reductio ad absurdum. A pro-life/anti-abortion advocate would likewise call her a child murderer for aborting regardless of how early she did it. Some Catholics would call her a child murderer if she used contraception!

            I think she’s a victim too. You can say she’s a victim of her own choices but I don’t think that means she’s not a victim. There’s a difference between violating a law to give life to an unborn child and violating the law to commit murder. It’s not so black and white here and that’s why this is so controversial. It makes us question our values and priorities with regards to reproduction, life, social good, etc. because it all comes together in one messy problem.

            Quinon has again made a very well-thought out and logical argument. I’m just not sure Rick is really guilty of being an apologist for the particulars of the government’s enforcement here. I suspect he’s just arguing for the legitimacy of the policy and has a strong belief in personal responsibility for one’s choices.

            Therefore, I think Quinon shouldn’t be asking Rick for what else he would condone since I think that’s going down the wrong hole, I think the question should be: How should the government have handled this that would still respect and not undermine the goals of the OCP?

          • Steeevyo

            Ming i award you the “most terrible person of the internet” trophy.
            Who raised you should be ashamed, you turned out awful.

          • Rick in China

            You’re all bagging on Ming for his apt response (although very abrasive). It’s based on fact, not emotion. I agree with Ming, although it is heartless to say. If I were in a position to help _not_ force the abortion and think of another means, I would..personally..take on that responsibility, for someone I didn’t know, sure.

            That being said, RE: “she decided she did not want to abort the baby” – THAT WAS HER FUCKING CHOICE, and her choice resulted in the death of the would-be baby. If she chose to abide by the law, whether the law is right or wrong, the fetus would not be laying next to her. She CHOSE to break the law and try to sneak past the system, but got busted. She is not the victim, she’s a criminal and a likely not horrible but absolutely ignorant woman for creating this circumstance. Feel all you want for her with your soft hearts, I guess the law doesn’t mean shit – “poor woman, she lost a baby” — no, poor baby – put in a shit situation because of a (potentially unjust) law and stupid fucking parents who decided to try to avoid it. Fuck her, fuck her husband, and I hope they both follow along the lines of Ming’s advice: lock them up and put their kid in a foster home.

            Laws and policies exist for a reason. Break them and suffer the consequences. The gray area and saddest part of all this is the fact it was an unborn child. The argument should be whether 7months is a human life in China (I think it is, but that doesn’t mean China legally does) and whether the forced labour was legal or not, not whether the government should or should not have followed their policy – if 7 months isn’t declared a human being, which would be sad, then that’s that. It’s not like they took a crying newborn and slit its throat.

          • Brett Hunan

            Rick,

            The officials broke the law too. By using capital letters and adding in the word “fucking” doesnt make your argument any stronger, it only makes you appear emotional.

            Yea, she broke the law. Stick her in jail. Stick her husband in jail. Dont kill the baby. If the law stated that if she became pregnant the second time than the government would forcefully abort the baby, this would be a non-issue. From what I know, everything they did to her was illegal as well. Send everyone involved to jail. The parents, the officials, the guards and thugs, doctors and nurses, hospital management…. thats a lot of collateral damage for getting pregnant. …but it would be fair and lawful, right?

          • linette

            I agree with some of the things Ming is saying. He is not totally wrong. Sound very cold but part of it is true. The China officials should be punished for killing the baby and abused the woman. They mishandled this case.

            @Dan
            ….8 aunts to remember and another 6 uncles………….
            Forced sterilization if needed sometimes. Everybody wants to have big family. We don’t want no 8 aunts 10 uncles 35 cousins..nobody has jobs in rural place.

          • linette

            Brett Hunan

            doctors and nurses, hospital management…….in jail?? Why?
            The medical staff didn’t force the woman. The gov’t officials did. They are just providing service. They followed the gov’t official order and the law. Why should they be in jail?
            I am sure they have to provide this type of service all the time.

          • Brett Hunan

            linette

            they didnt follow the law, they followed the officials. Also, I wasnt being serious. I over exaggerated the situation to illustrate that according to Rick, everyone who breaks the law deserves whatever happens to them. While that may be true, you cannot single out the mother and father for causing the baby’s murder. They may have started the peocess, but others finished it.

          • Quinon

            It is easy to support the harsh punishment of “others.” Nobody thinks about all the random things they do for their own convenience every day that “everybody else does” (also true in this case) which they would be bitching and moaning about if there were a penalty even a tenth as harsh as this one. And only the most crass of individuals condones the punishment of one who has “done something wrong” without looking at whether the punishment chosen is the greater wrong.

            Rick, Ming, you clearly have never had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of a corrupt government official. I hope that, if you ever do, your friends and family are not as heartless as you are.

            Go ahead and keep harping on how it is “her fault” if it helps you ignore the actual issues that are being raised here (namely, whether the government should be enforcing the one-child policy in this manner). It is hard to be ignorant when so much evidence is presented before you, but I can’t fault you for trying. You also clearly have no understanding of how government works or how the one-child policy is carried into execution (i.e. promotion quotas applied to loose-cannon local cadres).

            As for Anon’s response: are there other legitimate means of enforcing it? Sure! Jail time and fines come to mind. But even if forced abortions were the “only effective way” of dealing with the problem, that doesn’t mean they are justified. If the only way to effectively enforce an otherwise legitimate policy is by killing innocent bystanders, I fail to see why the fact that “it is the only way” makes it any more permissible. (Case in point: imagine if airport security required a full body cavity search of every passenger as the only way to “ensure that no drugs are being transported internationally.” Permissible goal? Absolutely. Proper means? I’ll let you conclude yourself.)

          • Brett Hunan

            Look, I’m not saying that the woman was not irresponsible. She was. My main point to ming, Rick, and whoever else wants to debate this is that it was illegal to kill the baby. The story says it, the netizens say it, Google says it. There were other options that didnt have to result in the woman laying next to her dead baby.

          • donscarletti

            Ming:

            Wow, great to hear about your parents paying their way around a law and how that makes it morally justified. It’s just shocking that this woman wasn’t of the privileged class that you were, which would make it all right.

            You know what? 40K isn’t much to me either, if my seed ever takes root inside that dry, dusty hole in your mother, I will pay for your new sibling showing the utmost of civil duty.

          • Ming

            Quinon you are so blinded by your own sense of self importance and righteous that you think the sun shines for your ass?

            I never once in any of my comments said that killing the child was the right thing to do..i never once approved of supported the local OCP actions.

            All my comments have been directed toward the parents and they need to be held responsible for what has happened. They created the situation for this to happened. Now if the OCP office did something illegal and corrupt that’s another matter.

            Where ever you live you have to obey the law of that country an if you do not then you pay the price. Its not rocket science you could argue how inhumane the law is in china but that’s neither here or there..that’s like debating how long is a piece of string.

            You are no better then a dedicator (minus the real power of one because you are a nobody and your life matter zero) You jump down on people when they do not agree with you or hold a different view to yours..GROW UP! LIFE IS FULL OF PEOPLE WHO DON’T SHARE YOUR VIEWS.

          • anon

            Quinon,

            I don’t think I ever said forced abortions are “the only effective way”? I feel you’ve misrepresented me.

            My question in my previous comment in this thread was to steer it away from unproductively badgering Rick about what cruelty he would condone in the name of the law and towards us thinking about how this particular situation could’ve been handled in a better, more humane way. Same 7 month pregnancy, same inability to pay the fine, same One Child Policy. How do we handle it? What would be the repercussions of how we handle it?

            Some people say payment plans for the fine, but its conceivable that this may encourage people to go ahead and have children, just another child rearing cost spread out lacking bite or much deterrence effect. Then you’d have arguments about taxing the poor when they’re already struggling to provide for their children.

            Same problem with jail time. So you let them give birth but then lock them up so they can’t take care of or provide for their new child?

            This is an extreme case because of how late the child was aborted. What if you had a mother in her first trimester refusing to abort the baby and unable to pay the fine? Do you just let it go? Just about any sort of punishment would negatively influence the child’s chances in life.

            I don’t think anyone has issues with education and propaganda for population control, but how do we deal with those who don’t subscribe to the social policy? What do we do about negative inducements and reinforcement?

          • Quinon

            Ah, sorry, then I did misrepresent what you were saying. I thought you were suggesting that there was no better alternative.

          • Rick in China

            @Brett RE: “emotional”
            Yes, I am emotional about this story, a fucking baby died. I blame the mother and father for being FUCKING (see, capitals) IDIOTS, and wish they had been a little more considerate of the rules in place when they decided to do something so FUCKING (again) ignorant.

            RE: Brett/Quinon “Stick her in jail. Stick her husband in jail. Dont kill the baby” & “Sure! Jail time and fines come to mind.” Fools. That’d be a great life for a newborn, and their existing child, having their parents in jail. WOOT! Good plan fellas. I’m all for it. Lets put the newborn on the hospital steps and see if anyone picks ‘em up.

            @ Quinon RE: “Rick, Ming, you clearly have never had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of a corrupt government official.” I’m on bail right now. For something that is being misrepresented with pretty much NO evidence aside from the words of a fool and mis-translation of a police officer for 1 word in a police statement. It has led me to a very precarious situation. I’m on the wrong side, Quinon, so please, don’t presume harshness from someone who is on a soapbox far distant from the circumstance is true in every case you internet warrior you.j

            @General
            I don’t agree with late term abortion. I don’t like the idea of abortion altogether. I do believe in a woman’s choice, within reason – maybe 3 months? They should know early whether they want it or not..I *HATE* the idea this was a forced labor. It may be illegal, I don’t know, if it was, the people who put the woman in this situation should face the appropriate charges and situation as well. But why did this situation even happen? It’s the mother/father, they decided to try to get around a well known law and now there’s a dead baby. There are most definitely better ways to solve this situation from MY perspective, but it would potentially have huge impacts on the law in general (which doesn’t apply to me, and I may feel differently if it did.) The question here isn’t about feelings and opinions on right and wrong, it’s about rules and breaking them – the consequence for such action – and who deserves what kind of consequence. Entirely, there’s just a LOT of *WRONG* in this story, and it’s heartbreaking to see the little one laying still.

          • Quinon

            @Rick: Wait a minute, how are you on bail and in China?

          • Brett Hunan

            Rick,

            Aside from saying “Don’t kill the baby”, I exaggerated everything in that paragraph. Again, I dont disagree that the parents were irresponsible. Your assertion that they caused this isnt wrong, but it isnt right either. The fact that the couple got pregnant does not excuse the government for acting outside of the law.

            As for your defending of Ming~ I dont get why you say what he wrote was “FACT NOT EMOTIONS” when he clearly has his own motives to post and part of that is if your parents can bypass the law with money or connections, it is okay.

            A problem here is that Ming can have 2 siblings because his parents can afford the fines, while this woman couldnt. He is biased because his family could, most likely legally, step around the law. Good for him, but that doesnt make this woman a monster.

          • Rick in China

            @Quinon
            Walking home sunday afternoon after a late night and weekend brunch with some friends..hit by a shitty little car who drove off, about 150meters. I chased ‘em down, reached through his window to grab his hands, he’s about my height (185cm) and kinda chubby, no small pup by any means, and he started crying “I’m sorry I’m sorry”…so I ‘pulled out’. Yelled a bit at the ripped up hand/fractured bone on my right, said f’ it and walked off. 3 minutes later he came up behind me and said I hit him and we need to wait for police. Fast forward, being charged with assault. No cameras or anything. At police station, no report – just talking, agreed to go home, signed name/phone # on a piece of paper and nothing else. 2 days later the police guy called for me to come in to make an official statement. Nothing else. A month later, PSB contacted me at my office, said I need to come in for a report. I went in. A week later, put me on bail, said they’re charging me with criminal assault causing injury, the guy claims I fractured his nose – just his word – 3 witnesses questioned, 2 saw nothing, 1 10m away said he saw a laowai hit a chinese guy, but wasn’t clear how many times or circumstance (whole thing lasted about 5 seconds thru his window). Police statement on first day said he refused to go to hospital or file charges – whole thing is just some bullshit hoping to get money..now he wants 40k. But, it wasn’t just about money, he said he wanted me to have some kind of strict criminal sentencing. I actually went to court last month. I’m still on bail – since December 17th, and currently waiting sentence….which may take up to 3 months after the court date….it’s all a bunch of f’ing nonsense, and a little unbelievable, but it is what it is. That’s how I’m on bail “and” in China.

          • Ming

            Brett – that is not what i am saying at all!

            Yes having the money to pay the fines or traveling to another country to have the baby is out of reach for most local Chinese..agreed.

            Government official acted illegally, that i am not a lawyer and will not comment on but i will say its morally wrong and that child should have not been killed.

            All i am stating is that just because you are poor, doesn’t absolute you from your parental responsibilities. If she didn’t know her rights she should make it her duties to find out about her rights, the child was aborted at 7 months that more then enough time for her and hr family to take action.

            In most country if you drive a car without proper child safety seats and gets in an accident and that child is killed the parents are held responsible. Because simply put the parent had put that child in harms way. In this case the parent have clearly put this 7 month child in danger and harms way and had time to change that but they didn’t.

          • Ming

            “Fighting on the internet is like winning the special Olympics..even if you win your still retarded”

            So true.

          • mr. wiener

            My quote I believe. $25 rmb thankyew:)

        • Quinon

          Look, English is clearly not your first language so I’m going to cut you some slack on the fact that you clearly did not read anything else I wrote. But you should really look up “murder” before you argue that she is a “child murder.”

          不过你最好顺便学学一些基本道理。不是做错事就能随便罚,所有事情都要适量。你自己也不是天天守所有规矩吧(例如你过马路是否偶尔不在人行道过?或者上地铁不把包拿出来看?偶尔该排队的时候插队?)要是有一天ZF以你“违反规则”为理由杀了你妈,你愿意吗?你说是你杀的还是ZF杀的?

          而且违反计划生育不带有强迫性流产的后果,你凭什么说是这个女的杀了她自己孩子?你到看过中国的法律没有?

          你这种人还到国外的网站来混,真丢我们中国人的脸。

          • Ming

            This is CHINAsmack not Englishsmack so who gives a shit?
            maybe if you wrote in Chinese i could reply in Chinese?

          • Alan

            Be very wary of replying to ming. His/her appearance on these boards in the current climate of blame everything on the foreigner is highly suspect to me.

        • Nyancat

          you are such a dumb shit i don’t even know where to start, did you ever think that she might have discovered the pregnancy too late? Abortions aren’t free too, there are many factors to be considered here, do proper research before passing judgment on someone else.

          • Rick in China

            Discovered late? In China? Women know they’re pregnant, cat. Especially thin Chinese women, especially ones who already have children, well within a couple months of conception – don’t be so silly in your arguments. Abortion isn’t prohibitively expensive here – a couple hundred yuan at a hospital, maybe more if you go somewhere a little nicer. Before it got to that point, why didn’t these fucktards think of prevention rather than escaping the system?

          • Nyancat

            The menstrual cycle can be affected by various factors rick, hell even some medication can affect it immensly, you should look it up. I’m not pulling these facts out of my ass. An abortion is not expensive? Women don’t walk into a hospital have an abortion and then walk out like nothing happened.
            They would need some rest perhaps in a hospital, medication for sure and so on, I wasn’t emphasizing on the cost of just having an abortion I took the associated costs as well. We haven’t even taken into consideration any complications that might arise as well, I mean who knows right?
            I would think that it is the lack of education about contraception and preventative measures that leads to such situations happening in the first place, for that who do we blame? At least we can both agree on that I hope. Most people think they can get away with it and trust me they usually do, it’s just some unlucky ones that get caught, so majority wins I suppose

          • Nyancat

            Oh let me tell u a story, there is this friend of my wife’s, they’re from Zhuhai and they well off so recently they decided to have a second child, and the wife covered up her baby bump as best she could, finally the people at the FPB get wise to the situation and they start paying her visits.
            They decide to take off and head back to her hometown, and now the baby is like 3 months old and the family planning bureau can’t collect any fine because the baby is registered under the mums houkou or something, while the dad’s one is a Zhuhai houkou.
            There are numerous loopholes in this one child policy and people are going to exploit it, especially when situations are dealt with like this, you don’t poke a caged animal, that only serves to piss it off more, and then IT EATS YOUR FACE! :D

          • Ming

            Name calling now? are we at that level? let me guess your a hit guy who cant make it back in his home town and even the town ugliest woman wont touch you with a 10 foot pole so your in china to try your luck? after all you have millions and millions of poverty desperate Chinese woman who would sleep with?

            Yes i am passing judgements and why should i not?..last time i checked passing comments judgements was not illegal but having a second child without the money to pay the fine was you disgusting piece of human maggot.

            If you do not like the law in china then take your sorry ass back home?

          • Rick in China

            @Nyancat RE: “Women don’t walk into a hospital have an abortion and then walk out like nothing happened.”

            Obviously you’ve never been to an abortion ward in China. It’s like McDonalds. I have. I’m not “pulling facts out my ass”. Guys in hallway waiting for the procedure on their gf/mistress/wife/whatever while playing on their phones. Generally cold tile with no color and cheap plastic seats in the halls, poorly lit similar to the setting for an ex-psychiatric-ward based horror/thriller movie. Maybe waiting 30 minutes. Women walking out of the closed door room walking slowly and generally holding their abdomen, maybe making a visit to the toilet before they leave. They’re uncomfortable. It’s sad to watch. They don’t sit in the hospital for a long time, nor have any medication required afterwards (altho I wouldn’t be surprised if docs try to prescribe some in many cases since it’s a for-profit situation). All in all it’s dismal and sad. I agree that contraception is ideal, and the cheapest way to avoid this sort of nonsense is sterilization if you’re married and have a kid already – why risk getting your life all fucked up and fucking up another potential life? You’re right that education is key, and I would be surprised if anyone in China was not aware/educated on the one-child policy.

          • Nyancat

            @ Rick in China >>>please read my response more carefully, i never insinuated that you were pulling anything out of your ass :( Umm unfortunately you are wrong, I have been thru this situation first hand I don’t want to get into that, it takes a greater toll on Chinese women I believe cause of their more delicate physiques,I wouldn’t write about something I don’t know about and I don’t pull facts out of MY ass (that’s what i wrote) cause sadly I know what goes on. I forgot to mention that there is also a psychological aspect to getting an abortion too that takes time to recover from as well, so let’s just agree to disagree shall we?
            @ Ming yeah as a matter of fact I’m going to think that calling u names is justified because while what you say is that we should follow all laws you would be a fool to think many of these laws can get enforced. In any case the way it was enforced was inhumane and it wad for lack of a better word murder, the daughter wasn’t a fetus , she was almost full term. Go through life with that attitude and see how far it gets you, make sure you don’t break any laws alright.
            As to my situation unfortunately for you I met my wife while I was in Malaysia and I came to China because of her, I now have a beautiful family, I don’t want to get into how awesome I am in all aspects, let’s just say I have never had to ask a girl out that part is usually done by my female partners. I am also not Chinese and I do not have to follow the OCP so there’s that too, I’ll leave as soon as I feel like it. Having to come to China cause I can’t do well anywhere else? Don’t generalize so much, I lived in Dubai, Singapore and Malaysia and they’re much better than China so I’ll leave when I think I have seen enough.

        • Boris

          Ming
          …the merciless!

          • Ming

            No this is not true..I feel lots of sadness for this child i also feel anger for him this should NEVER have happened but it. Whether the local government illegally forced her into the abortion that is not the issue i am raising that’s another matter. She and her husband created the situation for this to happened in the first place they are not innocent bystanders here!

          • anon

            Haha, this was actually great comic relief for me.

          • matt

            @Ming. If forced abortions are illegal, then the parents couldn’t have foreseen the local official’s actions. If the forced abortion wasn’t foreseeable, then the parents can’t be blamed for creating a situation where their child got forcibly aborted.

          • Ming

            Matt, agreed with you she was counting that she could hide it from OCP and that by the time its 7 months she would be in the clear. Well she clearly took a risk and her risk have play out with tragic outcome a death of an Innocent child.

            She took that gamble and was not counting on heartless ruthless officials..that does not mean she is not responsible she is the one that took the risk with her own unborn child life at the end of the day. She created the situation where tragic outcome could have and did occur.

          • Sponge Monkey

            Years ago my wife and I had a discussion about foreigners and their opinions of China. Specifically the over the top ones. I think it was 2008, we were at a restaurant, and some foreigner got into an argument with the waiter, then the manager, and went off on a rant in both English and really poor Chinese. “Chinese this” and “Chinese that” and “you people” and “you all” and “this country”… you get the point. I ended up getting into it with the guy. First I asked if I could help, but he was too “in the zone” and wouldn’t stop berating this manager, and eventually everyone in the restaurant. To this day, I still don’t really know what he was on about, but his buddy gave me a look like “he does this a lot” (kinda rolled his eyes and signaled for me to not bother). I was just about to go back to my table when buddy yelled out something about the Chinese all being criminals or scam artists.

            I made some comment to him, around the lines that “You know, if you’re gonna pick a fight with the whole country, can you not do it when my wife and child are present? You’re embarrassing me.”

            Well, that worked. Buddy turned his attention to me and his friend ended up having to hold him from jumping on me (I’m not a big guy, he would have cleaned the floor with me, thanks idiot’s friend).

            She just reminded of that day. As I sit here translating a certain Chinese person’s comments, she tells me “This is like that day at the restaurant, but now it’s Chinese”…

            I don’t mind constructive criticism and debates, but name calling and generalizations, whether it be a foreigner that does it, or Chinese, it’s embarrassing and provides nothing to the discussion.

            Kinda like this post.

            Doh!

            My wife knows lots of foreigners. Heck, if you’re a close enough friend to the family, Chinese or foreigner, in our house, makes you family. She knows this was an isolated incident but wanted to know how I felt abou

      • Sponge Monkey

        You do understand I wasn’t really serious about the jaywalking thing…

        • mr. wiener

          kinda figured. You are so bleeding heart NICE!! I thought is was nothing but a throwaway line.
          P.S How is the vinal vixen in your avatar?

          • Sponge Monkey

            I dunno. She’s been kinda moody lately and certainly doesn’t put out like she used to. I guess we’re just at that “comfortable” point of the relationship.

  • Ming

    well people in china clearly knows the one child policy law..so why not have your tubes tied after your first child? or have your husband tie his tube so that you do not have to suffer like this? LAW IS LAW is the law is changed and they have done this then yes there should be a out cry and people should protest but everyone in china knows the one child policy and what would happen if you break this law. I do feel sorry for her but she and her husband is the one to blame for this dead child no one else.

    • Rick in China

      Exactly my point above :D A lot of girls also do a less permanent solution, some little clip thing on their tubes that prevents eggs from dropping down, but can be removed in the future if they want to have another child..

      • hooots

        It’s people like you and your apologist attitudes toward the Chinese government that only perpetuate their murderous policies. Their are countless other ways to slow the population explosion in China, the government is just too lazy and corrupt to implement them. Murdering unborn babies is the most senseless and barbaric way to curb the problem. It’s people like you that just defend China to the end to somehow justify your existence there. Get real man. China is about as fucked up a place as you can get outside of North Korea.

        • mr. wiener

          Do you foresee any alternatives?

          • hooots

            Yeah a shifting of focus from “Money over everything.” But, that’s a long way off. Ask a class full of Chinese students if money buys happiness. You’ll hear a unanimous and resounding “Yes!” The whole ‘if you don’t get married, buy a house, and a car, and have a son, then you’re a worthless waste of space’ idea needs to go. An economy and government that isn’t rooted in corruption would be good. If they gave a fuck about the environment that’d be cool. But, all that being said overpopulation is the root cause of all of our problems and previous government policies are mostly to blame for that. In short, China is fucked.

          • anon

            Rick,

            I think that’s the IUD? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iud

            I think they have been used but they were also controversial.

            hooots,

            You’ve completely gone off topic. The policy wasn’t meant to be murderous (unless you consider contraception and abortion inherently murder) but yes, there have been reprehensible enforcement that could be described as murderous. Still, a distinction.

            As for “countless” other ways, perhaps you can list them and we can discuss them. I personally think the Chinese government were not lazy and definitely considered the other options given how difficult the existing policy is to implement and enforce by itself. Absent proof of laziness and corruption involved in this specific issue, I’m not inclined to simply assume they were too lazy and corrupt to implement those other options. Please enlighten us or at least give us an argument with some substance to discuss.

            Give credit where it is due. The Chinese government’s OCP doesn’t just murder unborn babies. It’s an entire generation’s worth of education and propaganda program that includes the wide availability of free to low-cost contraception and post-conception abortion options. Don’t oversimplify it, forced sterilizations and abortions are not the only nor a common method the Chinese government employs to curb the population problem.

            Rick in China is hardly a defender of China. I’m always amused by some of you people who instantly think someone is a China apologist or defender through and through the moment they might actually agree with Chinese people or the Chinese government on something. You’ve been on this site long enough to have read Rick’s other comments, right?

            Finally, you really haven’t traveled much, hooots. There are SO MANY more places that are arguably more fucked up than China beyond just North Korea. You might want to dial down the hysterics a bit.

          • anon

            Sorry, forgot to address your second comment here.

            I’m not sure how “a shifting of focus from ‘Money is everything’” is an alternative to the OCP. This is what I also meant by you going off topic. As much as we like to think our Western developed societies are all so enlightened about money not being the key to happiness, you’re going to have a lot of unhappy people if you took their money away from them. The value of money tends to decrease when you have more of it (as with everything, right?), so is it any surprise that China, a society that has historically been poor where even the rich have only become rich recently and the vast majority still legitimately have concerns of financial stability (where a family member falling ill could wipe out one’s life savings), values money a whole lot? You’re in a “let them have cake” moment.

            You’re now blaming all of China’s social ills on overpopulation and instead of offering alternatives, you resort to blaming past policies. Sure, we can do that, but you’re still just complaining and blaming, not offering alternatives. The OCP is a policy aimed at alleviating some of these problems but arguably has created its own. All true but what do they do about it? Our countries had to live with its past mistakes by making new policies in attempts to correct them. So must China, and it is. The reform and opening up of Deng was a correction to Mao’s Communist policies. So is the OCP to Mao’s policies of encouraging births. Mao’s own policies were to reverse the policies of past “feudal” governments. And so on.

            You’re getting to the point where you’re arguably celebrating China being fucked. People are arguing that Rick is saying the woman is fucked or her own past decisions. You can be said to be arguing that China is fucked for her own past policies. Notice how similar the underlying logic is?

          • Fu ZhiGao

            Ummm, why not have a two-child policy, anon? This ensures population replacement at least and avoids the 老龄化 problem that is looming over the horizon.

            Hong Kong is pretty cramped on space… home to, I believe, the most densely populated urban areas in the world. It’s also part of China. They seem to do pretty well without a one-child policy. Can you explain that?

            When the costs of rearing extra children make sustaining one’s standard of living difficult, many people elect not to have second children.

            Without universal housing anymore, a lack of social benefits in an ostensibly socialist country, along with a shrinking labor force in a country that relies on cheap labor for economic expansion, can you really say that this is the most far-sighted and best thought out policy? Especially when atrocities like this are regularly committed?

          • Fu ZhiGao

            I should have said “a sufficient amount of social/retirement benefits for the elderly”

          • anon

            Fu ZhiGao,

            Probably because the policy was meant to reduce the population instead of strictly to achieve a replacement birthrate? It’s a supply versus demand issue. Someone decided they wanted to scrub the population growth rate and overall population figures? Do we know if they wanted to ensure population replacement when they enacted this? If not, we can’t assume it, right?

            Hong Kong wasn’t part of China when the OCP was enacted. Clearly Hong Kong’s government, before and after the handover doesn’t believe it is facing problems that require such a drastic measure. Hong Kong, as you know, enjoys a different set of historical, social, and economic circumstances, with different access and availability of basic social resources. The OCP, whether we agree with it or not, was made in response to these issues in the mainland so if you want to compare HK to the mainland, we have to acknowledge these differences, right? That said, you actually do have Hong Kongers worried about population issues (remember the housing post recently on chinaSMACK?) but they can, for the moment, mostly blame mainland influx.

            When you can find me saying the OCP is “the most far-sighted and best thought out policy”, then you can ask me such a question. All I’ve said is that there are reasons that many find legitimate for such a policy.

            Finally, I think these sort of atrocities have happened in China far too regularly for my tastes, but I don’t think it is quite fair or accurate to paint this as the face of the OCP. These atrocities should be stopped and avoided and they are legit criticisms of the implementation or enforcement of the OCP but it shouldn’t color a rational evaluation or discussion of the desirability of OCP’s goal of population control.

          • Fu ZhiGao

            anon:

            A twochild policy would still reduce population, though not as quickly, because you need closer to 2.3 children per couple to ensure population replacement. (Remember that people have accidents and die early and that not everyone has children.)

            Hong Kong is a part of China now, the place where resources and overcrowding are the worst, and yet the policy has never been implemented there. Why not? What factors are so different in Hong Kong that the policy should not be implemented? What were the reasons why this policy was adopted in the first place? How is it different in Hong Kong? It just strikes me as very inconsistent. I can’t help but feel that it is because Hong Kong is “developed” and “rich enough” to have more children or that it is because it is urban and there are no farmers.

            I don’t want to call you an apologist for the government, but you really have me puzzled with this statement: “Give credit where it is due. The Chinese government’s OCP doesn’t just murder unborn babies. It’s an entire generation’s worth of education and propaganda program that includes the wide availability of free to low-cost contraception and post-conception abortion options.” Post-conception abortion options? There have probably been many, many women who have been forced into have abortions because of this policy. You can blame the enforcement, I blame the policy. I also think contraceptives are worthless if no one knows how to use them.

            Are you aware that there is basically no sex education in most of China? When I got married in Guangdong province, we got a DVD explaining how to have and enjoy sex. There were two nude people and some diagrams explaining sexual anatomy and function. They also modeled a few different positions and explained what was enjoyable about them. Great stuff. Seems strange that the government is so concerned about population control and yet doesn’t teach sex ed in class, don’t you think? I don’t see too many places offering free or reduced price contraceptives in Shanghai the way Planned Parenthood does in the U.S.

            There was a story a week and a half ago on NetEase that talked about a high school girl that had had several abortions in the past year. When the reporter asked “why” and she said it was because she didn’t know to use contraceptives.
            http://news.longhoo.net/nj/njxw/content/2012-05/26/content_9164977.htm

            Also, I recently met a 19 year old girl from Hunan who didn’t know where babies come from.

            So in the end, I think the policy is crap because (1) a lot of old, poor people are going to have no one take care of them (makes me sad seeing 60-70 year-old beggars in the streets here), (2) messes up the labor pool which is driving China’s growth, and (3) isn’t supported by sex education

            Alternatives could be two-child policies or less hefty fines for additional children and elimination of birth quotas at county levels so that stupid officials wouldn’t force citizens into having abortions. Above, people started talking about a 40,000 fine. From what I am told, the fine is one half-year’s salary in some places. There was another story from ZheJiang about a couple that was fined like 1,300,000 RMB because they made so much.
            http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-05-30/095124504586.shtml

          • Fu ZhiGao

            Sorry, that got a little longer than I expected.

          • anon

            Sorry for the late response, Fu Zhigao, I’ve been busy and absent.

            Yes, I’m aware of mortality rates, but you answered yourself: It wouldn’t have reduced population as quickly.

            Hong Kong has overcrowding and resource issues but of a different nature than what mainland China was/is facing. It also has a different political culture that will inherently influence whether or not an issue like reproductive rights is feasible. India also faces similar population and resource problems but didn’t take the same road China did. There are reasons for this. Don’t forget also that by the time Hong Kong went back under Chinese control, the OCP was already being loosened. One of the reasons why the OCP was not seen as necessary for Hong Kong IS because it is more developed and wealthy in terms of social resources. I wouldn’t say there aren’t farmers in Hong Kong because there’s still plenty of people in such “low-end” occupations and demographic strata but the main thing is social resources (education, healthcare, etc.).

            I don’t see how that statement was an apologist statement whatsoever and you don’t explain how it is either. I simply think it is inaccurate to view the OCP by one small aspect of the enforcement of that policy. My point is that the OCP involves a lot of other aspects that I don’t think are objectionable. Post-conception abortion options include things like Plan B or the morning after pill. If you’re philosophically against that, I can understand, but I think a lot of people accept that as very different from late-term abortions, which I too find revolting. I think there have been “many” women who have suffered forced abortions by local authorities under the pretense of enforcing the OCP, but I’m certain I’m correct in saying that they are still a minority of those who have been affected by the OCP. This doesn’t mean what they’ve suffered is excusable, I’m just saying its inexcusable to not acknowledge facts when discussing something as contentious as this. I also think contraception is useless if no one knows how to use them but the OCP also involves education on contraception use. Is everyone getting the education they need? No, but its unfair to pretend there isn’t education.

            Sex education in China encounters a lot of the same problems as sex education elsewhere. You have people who think the mere teaching about contraception encourages promiscuous behavior. Still, haven’t there been multiple chinaSMACK articles about sex education in China? Do a search. Read the comments. Planned Parenthood gets a lot of shit in America. Schools still allowed parents to opt their children out of sex education classes. China may not have ubiquitous sex education, but its a lot better than it used to be, especially before the OCP. Again, give credit where it is due. If you simply weren’t aware of this, then that’s one thing, and now you know, but to insist on something absolute against the facts is unreasonable.

            Regarding why you think the policy is crap:

            1) Unfortunately, all policies have collateral damage. I empathize with your sympathy for the elderly but North America and Canada are facing the same aging demographic risk. There is no obvious policy that resulted in that problem unlike China’s OCP, but then would you blame their children for being selfish and not having more children? No, there are too many factors involved in why certain populations given certain social economic circumstances have declining birthrates. My objection to the OCP is aspects of its enforcement, but I can understand and even agree with the rationale of the OCP.

            2) This is even more complex. A continuously large population would give China labor benefits in terms of labor cost competitiveness but then what? How far should China depend on cheap labor to drive its national economic growth? Is that growth better than the costs a continuously large population would impose on the nation’s resources?

            3) I disagree with you on this. I agree that sex education isn’t as ubiquitous as we would like but I know for a fact that the OCP IS supported by sex education. I’m not sure how you can say that with a straight face. The larger problem is that education in GENERAL is not as ubiquitous as we’d like in China. People are falling through the cracks. We can whine about that but then we’d be walking right into one of the very reasons for the OCP, to shrink the population so there are more social resources to spread around. You’re complaining about supply while at the same time unwilling to consider constraining demand. The Chinese government made a choice to constrain demand in order to improve supply.

            As already discussed above, a two-child policy is of course an option but it comes with its own pros and cons. It is not all pro. Less hefty fines also has pros and cons. Eliminating quotes as well. Of these three things, I think the geographical quota aspect is the most controversial and in need of rethink. Quotas have their effective uses, but I think they create too many problems in certain situations, and this is one of them.

        • jin

          ok please tell me the countless other ways to slow the population explosion in china. tell me.
          murderous policies??? did you even read? or know the law in china?
          this is not the law, the law prohibit abortion after 6 month pregnancy.
          this is the doing of 3 corrupt officials.
          she knew the law, but she still went for it, her fault.
          the corrupt officials knew the law, but they still forced a abortion on her, officials fault.
          its not the fault of law.
          china is fucked up? look at india, thailand, laos, africa, plenty of other countries out there? they are less fucked up?
          china is still improving, and corruption is getting less.
          wtf do you know about china?
          its people like and your hatred that causes war.

      • Nyancat

        I wonder what the costs associated with that would be, maybe that might shed light on why women don’t do that do that to prevent getting pregnant, anyone here know more about it?

    • Nyancat

      Ming you might want to take into consideration that these people who can’t afford to pay the fine are blue collar workers, China’s rise came on the backs of these folks, but when they come to metropolitan areas they are faced with discrimination in all forms.
      The general populace sees them as ‘migrant workers’ ironic as the houses and everything in the metro areas are built by their blood and sweat, the government takes little action when it comes to educating or providing a decent standard of life to them.
      It’s interesting though that they are able to enforce laws like this, ones that strip away a human’s dignity and basic rights, while your parents might have been able to pay for having multiple children, these folk don’t have that luxury but that doesn’t mean they don’t have that right.
      Don’t compare yourself to them because you have no right to do so, empathize with them if you are even capable of doing that, I got to ask why didn’t you mum get her tubes tied as you suggested should be done. You are nothing but a hypocrite.

      • Ming

        My parents did not tied their tubes because they knew they could afford the fee, if they didn’t they would have tied it like my cousins did to prevent this happening.

        Yes everyone should have legal rights and everyone should be protected by law, if you break that law then you simply pay the price. In this case she didn’t pay the price its the 7 months old child that paid.

        She and her husband should do jail time, tax payers had to foot the bill for this and i rather have my money goes into hospital and other social benefits for people who live by the law.

        • mr. wiener

          I’m assuming your folks were not blue collar workers then and actually had some money…correct?

          • Nyancat

            you’re assumption would be correct mr. wiener, folks like this just don’t see the bigger picture and it’s hard for them to understand the sufferings of the not so fortunate.

          • mr. wiener

            I’ve always been baffled by the mindset that thinks the poor did something to deserve to be that way…
            It’s not exclusive to asia either :(

          • Ming

            You do not know anything about me or my financial situation. I do not have class distinction I believe everyone should be given a fair chance in life and if you work hard you should be rewarded no matter who you are.

            The case here is China has a one child policy, right or wrong hate it or support it. This is the LAW.
            If this child was killed illegally this is a case for lawyers and government officials.

            My arguments and point have always been and remain the same..This woman and her husband broke the law as it stand in China. I know this policy is vague how it is enforced but this is something Chinese government needs to change. They need to take a hard line on this and have clear guidelines and not allow anyone to get away with it. Treat it like you treat drug traffickers or pushers.

          • red scarf

            Ming

            The wife and husband could go for jail for hiding it, if that is against the law with within the legal punishment.

            However, punishment must also be within the bounds of Chinese law, and I do believe at that age of the baby was outside the bounds of the legal punishment, and also had legal rights. wherefore the abortion was in itself an illegal act carried out by an official.

            However you may want to wangle it saying that the mother and father was bad they had escape the punishment limits on what the government could to to her in regards to her child.

            It doesn’t matter if very one knows the one-child polity, the law is the law and the child and the mother had legal rights under Chinese law. If your saying they don’t then you don’t believe the in Chinese constitution because this is what Chinese law falls under.

            If you saying that you do then this is an illegal act and should be punished by law, if it counts as murder “homicide”, then under your logic they should be made an example off and under the legal punishment allowed the officials and the medical team who conducted the abortion should all be put to death.

          • Nyancat

            @Ming You are showing double standards here, you say that everyone should follow the law but in another instance you say that if you can get away with it (via connections) then that’s alright too, it isn’t exactly legal either, what’s it going to be?
            Quite simply say you were in the same situation god forbid, what would you do,or even better say you knew someone and they were going through a similar situation would you say the same thing to them? I highly doubt it.
            Can you imagine the horror of having your child murdered? There is no justification for what happened here.

          • Nyancat

            @ weiner you and me both brother, you and me both. I wonder if it will ever change.

          • Ming

            I was just making a point that most Asians flaunt the laws..no matter how small or large if they try and get away with it if they can. All the proof you need is just try walking or driving on any road in china.

            Second it would never happen to me because i would never allow that to happen to me nor anyone i know would do that. Its nice to sit in your nice houses and have such a good heart but your clearly do not see how many children in china that is abused and living in slums. Second point is that MOST not all rural parents wants lost of kids is because they will financially support them in their old age or help them in the farm when the reach 12y.

            This is off topic but you need a license to drive a car, have a business, where you live and even what you can and can not buy but with another human life any person can pop one out. Law must change. Parents needs to be access if they are parent material and can mentally and physically look after their children.

          • Nyancat

            Never say never Ming, plus now you’re making assumptions that we were all born with silver spoons? How can you make that generalization? Also how are you able to gauge whether or not this couple would be able to take care of their kids? Do you have access to their bank accounts or something? They were asked to pay 40k RMB which is rather excessive, how do you know they were unable to take care of this child, it would seem that they have a child already and he/she is alive which means they are able to take care of their kid.
            I gotta ask you if what they did was alright why did they lose their jobs, because logically it was wrong as hell.

          • elizabeth

            @ Ming

            “I do not have class distinction I believe everyone should be given a fair chance in life and if you work hard you should be rewarded no matter who you are.”

            I believe you are sincere about this. But you have overlooked one very important aspect of the issue. The problem is, there are people who work hard and still do not get anywhere because of lack of social capital. That’s sadly how the world works – connections make a lot of difference, especially in Asian countries, if I may say, the concept of guanxi is very much alive in China.

            Even in countries where meritocracy is supposed to be practiced, more often than not, politics will prevail.

            This has to be fixed before you can safely say that whoever works hard will definitely have a good life.

        • linette

          Ming

          How can it be fair just because you can afford to pay the fee you are allowed to have more than one child? So what is the purpose of this one child policy? It should be one child only for everybody.

          • Alan

            I was just making a point that most Asians flaunt the laws..

            @ Ming: Not in malaysia they don’t.

            Stuff that is acceptable in China, would land you with a fine or worse there. Same in Macau, I almost got fined for jaywalking near Senado Square in Macau, so I know the traffic cops there are no joke….

          • Nyancat

            Ming is far too sure of himself cause he sees the future and how everything turns out, he nor anyone he knows will come to face such a situation, and he supports the one child policy even though he is not an only child, oh the irony.

          • jin

            the mother/father is at fault for breaking the law.
            the officials is at fault for breaking the law.
            (they law prohibit abortion after 6 months)
            and if you can affort the fee, you can probably affort to raise more children, if you cant even affort 40k yuan then how will you raise another child? the child will just be under educated, and become what? the OCP is to controll the poor from having too many child. without this law ten millions and maybe hundred millions poor rural people will have too many children, how will these children get work? how will they live? the might turn into criminals to get some money, and china will never improve.

          • Ming

            Nyancat that’s my parents choice not mine..think before you try to twist words and yes i am 100% sure it wont happen to me because i can travel and live in any part of the world i like. Just booking my ticket to London, Spain and New York to get away from this horrid heat we get at this time of year actually.

            The fine is a tax which goes to basic schooling and medical care, yes its not the best but its still something.

            Alan i said most Asian country not all

          • Sponge Monkey

            @Ming

            I do not have class distinction I believe everyone should be given a fair chance in life and if you work hard you should be rewarded no matter who you are.

            So, you’re saying that anyone who is poor is poor because they don’t work hard?

            According to 2009 estimates, 36% of the population of China is living on less than $2.00 a day.

            America – 15.1% is in the “poverty” class
            Canada – 10.8%
            Japan – 15.7%

            So, what exactly are you trying to prove? China is a lazy country? I didn’t say it.

          • Alan

            So, you’re saying that anyone who is poor is poor because they don’t work hard?

            @ Spongemonkey: He seems affected with the conservative notion of if you are not working, or poor, then you are lazy, and that somehow to magically improve your lot, all you need to do is get off your arse.

            Tell that to the steel and power plant workers in the UK, who Thatcher made redundant in the 80s, as well as the union reps…..

    • yakattack

      Ming I dont think we can just assume that the parents knew all there is to know about this law. Education in the countryside is not the greatest, and getting things done for some families can be difficult, especially dealing with official papers and documents like hukou, even going into town or going to the doctor is a bit of a stretch for some people. It is my understanding that if you first child is a daughter (in the countryside that is) then you can have a second. She may well know other families and other people who have had a daughter and then had a second child, and without checking anything or confirming anything gotten pregnant.

      • Ming

        Sure there are a number of reasons why this happened but the simple fact is that it didn’t have to have happened. She didn’t need to go anywhere a simple phone call to family planning or her local government office and they could have explain it to her.

        For all we know she might be legally entitle to a second child but we can only make comments based on this story as it is written and the information in it.

        Ignorance is not a legal defense in any country

      • Sponge Monkey

        @ Alan – http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=275917

        I’m pretty sure that 570,000 unemployed graduates would disagree with some of the statements posted on here.

  • linette

    I want to throw up. Where is my vomit bucket?

    This is why Chen Guangcheng the “blind lawyer” fought so hard to protect these families and women.

    I can understand the one child policy. It’s necessary to control the population in the rural areas. If not they will be breeding like rabbits. But you can’t just fine them and force abortion on them. They need to preach prevention and provide birth control pills. Have the women undergo permanent sterilization after the first child birth.

    • mr. wiener

      I thought folks in rural areas where allowed to have 2 kids?
      But yes I agree the rest of what you said.

      • Rick in China

        Has nothing to do with rural areas. Here are a couple examples:

        * Minorities can have more than 1 child.
        * If two people get married and are both single children, they can have 2 children.

        • Brett Hunan

          I dont know the specifics of the laws, but I would guess that over 30% of the students at a school I used to teach at in Hunan had siblings.

          • moop

            did they have siblings bret, or were they just cousins that they call brother and sister? i’ve run into that a lot

          • linette

            over 30% of the students at a school I used to teach at in Hunan had siblings……..

            30%??? That is a very high percentage. So all this one child policy is nonsense as long as you pay the China gov’t a fee? So only the rich can get away breaking the one child policy?? Where is my vomit bucket. Isn’t this supposed to reduce and control population? This is nonsense. Why is that every time when I hear about the China gov’t is always bad news. Don’t they do anything right?

            Brett, you are also a teacher? What subject? Do you speak Chinese?

          • Brett Hunan

            @moop
            I always asked and my number represents “real” brothers and sisters.

            @linette
            It did and still does seem very high. But I dont think I am exaggerating. No, I am no longer a teacher. Yes, I speak Chinese.

          • linette

            So now we know that one child policy don’t apply on people with money. So strange.

          • Nyancat

            I think 30% is believable, in Zhuhai almost every family I’ve come into contact with has more than 1 child, both poor and rich families, no distinction between class here, although the family planning folks do try their best to get people to pay the fines. They’re usually not successful at that though.

          • anon

            The OCP hasn’t applied to people with money for a long time now. Or rather, it applies to them all the same, but they can simply afford to pay the consequences or circumvent the consequences. The most common consequence for having additional children was and remains fines. The rich simply paid the fines, or they flew to Hong Kong or somewhere else to have the children and those children would have legal status from abroad.

            Brett, what kind of school did you teach at? Was it a school with wealthy kids? A school with a lot of minorities? A rural school? Lots of migrant workers?

            In my experience, and off the top of my head, I’ve encountered more rural people with siblings (not cousins) than urban residents. Urban residents in some way enjoy a higher standard of living or access to a greater variety of services but may not necessarily actually have more money than rural residents when it comes to paying fines for additional children.

          • Brett Hunan

            anon

            very rural. I think a few families had money, but most couldnt afford the 40,000 rmb fine. Most parents were migrant workers in Guangdong and they were all Han from what I could tell…

          • linette

            Anon

            Are you also a teacher in China? So many foreigners working as teacher. An English teacher?

            Don’t get me started with the China pregnant women flooding Hong Kong emergency room last minute to give birth. They are just disgusting. They do it so they don’t have to pay fine and get the child a HK citizenship which entitled the child to all the gov’t benefits of HK. Free health care, educations, housing, welfare..etc And the China parents don’t pay tax to HK gov’t. We have to pay for them. ridiculous!!! The HK gov’t need to ban them from coming.

          • anon

            Brett,

            Rural families are often exempted from the OCP. Maybe that’s one reason why? It seems to apply mostly to urban couples.

            Linette,

            No, not an English teacher and I’m currently not in China either but I go there often for work. Your complaints about mainland mothers was well covered in past chinaSMACK posts.

          • jin

            @linette

            look for the bucket on the top of your head.

            So only the rich can get away breaking the one child policy??
            Isn’t this supposed to reduce and control population?
            Why is that every time when I hear about the China gov’t is always bad news. Don’t they do anything right?

            1. when are they breaking the OCP law? you can have more children IF you can affort them, can the rural people affort more childrens? how will their uneducated children live later?
            2. its to reduce uneducated poor people in china.
            3. cause the moment the government officials does something wrong, corrupt. it will spread through the internet like wildfire, and the media always want bad news right? they dont like goody goody stories. the headline is almost always BAD NEWS, like huge accidents or mass murder

        • linette

          If two people get married and are both single children, they can have 2 children………..

          But that is just dumb. Aren’t they trying to control population or maybe shrink it a bit. And it’s not fair. Everyone should allow to have one kid no matter what. And do permanent sterilization on the women after first birth.

          • Frank Zappa

            again with the “permanent sterilization”, i guess also “forced”.. it doesn’t sound more human than killing babys.
            and more, what if the child die, or the woman divorce, or go to live in another country?
            To have one child or more is not the point, if in a country all couples would have 1 child, within 40 years every child would have to take care of 2 old people, and also pay the pension for 2 old people.. a country cannot exist in this conditions.. it’s unresonalbe.

          • anon

            linette,

            It’s not really dumb. It was introduced as an exception to the OCP to help alleviate the looming aging demographic problem also mentioned by someone else earlier.

            I think everyone IS allowed to have one kid no matter what.

            Frank Zappa,

            I think the rule is that it’s one child per couple, so if you remarry, you can have another one with your new spouse. I think you’re also allowed to have another child if the first one dies and you’re not bound by the law if you’re in another country obviously.

            The flipside to the aging demographic problem is overpopulation and inadequate resources. One common alternative that people have suggested is that the Chinese government could’ve required spacing out of births instead of forbidding extra births. Of course, this would delay the slowing down of population growth and the consequent population demands for resources when perhaps the government saw a quicker reduction as being more pressing. There’s a give and take with everything.

          • Frank Zappa

            anon,
            my points were what if in case of sterilization after the first child like linette suggested.

          • anon

            Frank, right, forced sterilization would be a big problem in those cases. So there is an argument to be made for temporary/reversible sterilization (or I guess that would long-term persistent but reversible contraception).

        • Alan

          Minorities can have more than 1 child.

          Rick, dude, mate, do not go there, Fauna will throw another hissy fit if the minority stereotyped as knife slashing thieves are brought up again:)

          • Nyancat

            @ Alan I am curious, could you tell me more about this knife slashing minority?

          • mr. wiener

            Alan got smacked down by Fauna for generalizing a bit too much about the minorities from Xinjung. See the article about the Brazilian guy who got beat down for intervening in a robbery.

          • Alan

            Alan got smacked down by Fauna for generalizing a bit too much about the minorities from Xinjung.

            Not exactly Mr W, I called her out on her stereotyping all xinjiang people as being this and that, when it turned out those thieves were in fact han zu.

            If I have got you wrong, apologies, not got my happy hat on this evening.

            Regards
            A

          • anon

            Actually, she didn’t stereotype Xinjiang people at all, but you tried your hardest to accuse her of that and she smacked you for it.

          • Linette

            Alan

            So you got a good chineseSMACK from Fauna. hahaha…..rear end I hope.

          • mr. wiener

            Alan.
            No wuckin’ forries mate, we’re good.

          • Brett Hunan

            Ooh linette you are kind of kinky, huh?

        • Joe

          Rick, I think if you have a daughter first in a rural area you can try for a boy.

        • Shanghairen

          It does have to do with rural or urban. Every county or area has their own population quota. The fine varies from place to place. The fine in cities is highest. In some rural areas you can have a second child if the first one is a girl.

    • Brett Hunan

      The problem with forced sterilization occurs when incidents of only-child families lose their child like in the bus accident last year or the Sichuan and Qinghai earthquakes in 2008 and 2010 (in which, many many children died), respectively.

      I still think education and better quality of life are the best ways to reduce birthrate, as argued against coala banana (aka Maja).

      • Sean

        I thought the problem of forced sterilization occurred with coerced body modification by an unaccountable, state-sponsored mob?

      • anon

        I agree, education and a rising standard of living tends to correlate with lower birth rates (see: many Western European countries). The chicken and egg problem the Chinese government faced was that population growth itself was hindering improvements in education and quality of life because it was spreading available resources too thin.

        • Ming

          This sounds nice..lets get the 7 billion people on this planet to all be educated and living the American way of life. Nice house..shiny new car (up grade every few years to a better model) ha ha where do you think these resources will be coming from?

          Some statistical facts for you
          Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day.
          Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names
          Number of children in the world 2.2 billion
          Number in poverty 1 billion (every second child)
          Worldwide,10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5
          1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation

          Parents needs to be accountable having kids like they are pets. Just because you can breed doesn’t mean you have too.

          • Brett Hunan

            No one said anything about America.
            I havent read everything posted today, but I dont think anyone said the one-child policy is a bad policy. We gave what we think are alternatives to a shitty decision that ended with a dead baby. Education is one of the best answers. If you dont think so, why dont you give solutions instead of statistics?

          • jin

            education is the best answer, but CAN these rural people affort education for their children? their children are already getting free elementary education. free education all the way to university? can the government affort this? free education for 15 fking years for hundreds millions poor people in china?

          • Ming

            Brett, yes and the first step is population control

            1- Control the population and the birth rate
            2- Limit the balance between the aging and young so there is a balance, this can be done by financial rewards or fines
            3- tax increase higher tax rates for higher income earners
            4- Tax savings and liquid assets with a tax free limit
            5- Building better schools and get the education standards to international level.

            Education is not free and you can not just say ..oh we need to educate people..you need money and resources to do it not just money but invest in the educators themselves. No country have the funds to educate 1.4 billion people with a public purse where nearly 80% are living on less then $2 USD a day (in china).

            THE OCP does work and it should be enforced, forced abortion at 6 months is not the right option and punishment must also be handed to the local OCP government. If we had forced sterilization this problem wont have occurred, this couple wouldn’t have had the change to be so selfish and irresponsible

          • Brett Hunan

            You are right ming, it needs to start somewhere. However if we need to wait for the OCP to have an effect than it will be 65 years before the population is a reasonable 700 million and people can start to be educated. Sound like an effective plan to you?

          • Ming

            Brett, how long did you think it took the Egyptians to free the Jewish slaves? How many years did the roman use slave labor?
            How many lives did the Spanish and English killed during their history of conquer?American black slavery – how many years did it take for them to get basic human rights?

            My point is through out human history no one government system is perfect and none ever will. It takes time ..it takes trial and lots of errors. China have changed (too slowly for some and too fast for others) it will keep changing just like any other countries around the world.

            If you are correct in your 65 year assessment then that’s lightning speed. Human Slavery started in around 8000BC and only just ended in the British Empire 1833 French 1777 America 1863 and in some countries including Asia slavery still goes on and get traded like animals.

            Anything worth doing will take time and 1.4 billion people is a massive number of people to educate and support. How do you suppose the government can tax the 80% on $2-3 USD a day? to pay for their education?

            It nice to have dreams and live in a world of fantasy based on your own nice life but reality for most are not that clear cut. The only other solution is all the middle class and rich to denote 50-80% of their assets and money to help educate the poor..are you putting your hands up for this option Brett?

          • elizabeth

            Hi Ming, you seem to know very well what the Chinese government is doing, so I am curious. I still think that adoption is a great option.

            Instead of forced abortion or sterilization, couples who do not observe the rules could be required to give up their child for adoption unless they can prove that they could provide for the child’s education and development. Do you think it will work?

            I also think part of the problem is that China’s rich are not as philanthropic as they should be (not meant to be an insult or criticism). Otherwise, more charities could be set up to take care of needy children’s education…grants and scholarship, etc.

            Maybe the government should also educate the rich to be more generous.

          • Brett Hunan

            Just randomly comparing the OCP and slavery isnt going to win you any points here. In this day and age 65 years is a lifetime, especially when it comes to education and technology. The wold has the education know-how to educate the masses. Of course, the government can choose which areas are in more need of this kind of education.

            Dont think so black and white. There is often a middle ground.

            Whatever right? I mean you arent a lawmaker. Your proposal of waiting until the population is the correct size isnt necessarily going to happen. This isnt 8000bc or even 1950. This is 2012 and China is going to have to (China is trying) get up to speed. That, or stop claiming it will be the major world power blah blah blah. The world is getting smaller but that means our minds need to get bigger.

            Dont be so small-minded.

        • linette

          The immediate solution to control population and fix poverty for now is enforce the one child policy for everyone. One and only one, can’t have more than one fee or no fee rich or poor. Practice temporary or permanent sterilization. Prevention is the key for now. Long term solution the China gov’t needs to spend more money to the rural areas. Build better public transportations, better schools, a better healthcare system and pensions, housing etc. In time, with improved quality of life and higher education, they will have lower birth rate even without the one child policy.

          • anon

            Yeah, but classic example of competing interests (and the opportunity for corruption as well). For example, what about China’s affirmative action policies allowing exemptions for minorities? Don’t do that and then there will be claims of diversity being bred out. I think a rising living standard correlates with lower birth rates but I’m as stymied by how to best achieve this as I think most rational people are.

          • Sponge Monkey

            Woah woah woah… er… forced permanent sterilization?

            I’m pretty sure that would make world news. You’ve made some good points before Linette, and I like you, but this is not one of them. Your solution would have made me childless.

            (My wife is remarried to me, she has an 18 year old son in the army)

    • T in the Jing

      Forced sterilization was tried in India as a population control but failed miserably. Sterilization costs money and could only be implemented on the mother immediately after the birth of a child to ensure they go through with it. Otherwise, who would voluntarily participate in it. Also, who knows what one’s future holds? To that end, new mothers may indeed be able to afford the fine, or another method of having future children if their circumstances change. Therefore, sterilization is not a likely option for most. The one-child policy is as well known in China as is any common knowledge. The only logical argument to control population in this case would be to forfeit the mother’s life for her child’s, thus maintaining the number of Chinese ‘Citizens’ with legal rights. This of course, has flaws too, as does ANY population laws. Laws can not be possibly perfect, but a good law ‘works’. Having lived in China for years and speaking to people here, they support and understand the law somewhat. If only world leaders had balls like the Chinese gov to draw up and enforce tough laws such as those relating to population control and parenting, the world’s children would be born into a more fortunate existence.
      How many unemployed, unskilled, uneducated people in Europe have sprogs like it was a game. Our governments even promote this absurdity by financing the ‘mothers’ and their unlucky sprogs. If anything, one child policy should be global law, and any desire to have more should be only given to the few, the people who have ‘parenting’ skills and means to provide for their children. Seven billion people and counting. What number will it be to cause resource collapse and the next Huge war? So, would you prefer to have one child, or be happy knowing that your child, or their children, may live to see the worst war ever seen on the only planet that CAN harbor human live? Tick, Tock.

    • jin

      vomit bucket is on your head linette.

      the OCP is like wanting a pet in holland, if you want to have a pet, they need to put a chip in your pet, have life insurance on your pet, pay tax over your pet.
      abortion is prohibit after couple months of pregnancy, so these offocials did something illegal.
      preach prevention??? provide birth control pills??? Have the women undergo permanent sterilization?
      1. condoms exist, but it cost money. these rural people wont buy them.
      2. provide birth control pills? to hundreds of millions people? (dont think that something that could work in your country would work in china, just compare the fking population)
      3. maybe they dont want that? maybe they want more children? if they dont want a 2nd child, they could ask for it. (if the government force sterilization, then you will say you want to throw up again.)

      • Ning

        Fit an IUD after giving birth? It’s safe and reversible but long-term. Has a bad rep in the US after bad-quality product scandal in 70′s, but the rest of the world is happily using them. Or this shit, that was earlier mentioned on this platform:

        http://techcitement.com/culture/the-best-birth-control-in-the-world-is-for-men/#.T9yGHMWT4c2

        Birth control pills in China is a damned idea (as a widespread contraceptive) just imagine the hormone levels leaking from their pee into the water ecosystems, demasculating all lifeforms. No more seafood in China if their women all go on the Pill.

        • jin

          lololol couple hundred million pee with hormones a day….

  • 平凡人

    Murderous bastards! Just because she cannot pay the fine? They all should be charged with murder, if not, somoething is damn wrong in this country. Many chinese thinks that abortion is okay, it is murder!

  • Jeff

    Once again I am proud to be living in China

  • Daniel

    hard to believe Chinese people look down on people from most other countries in the world. You are scum of the earth!

    • mr. wiener

      Generalising much? This woman and her 7 month fetus are both Chinese too. Using your logic are they “the scum of the earth” also?

    • moop

      daniel, daniel, daniel….(shakes head)

      • Daniel

        ok ok, muslims, yanks and then the Chinese are the worst people on the planet.

        • moop

          what about internet trolls? where do they rank?

          • mr. wiener

            Trolls rank some where beneath that white tacky coat of slimy stuff you get on the surface of your tongue on the mornings you wake up with a hangover I think.

          • moop

            oh yeah, the beer gnome shits in people’s mouths while they sleep. yeah, trolls are about that level

          • Daniel

            haha way above the aforementioned groups. Internet trolls are not flying planes into buildings nor blowing themselves up on trains. Nor are internet trolls invading countries they have no right invading and slaughtering women and children…think Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq…who is next? If Finland step out of line? Where does your blood lust end?

          • moop

            i dunno daniel, where do you live? i’ll make some phone calls

            muslim terrorists are flying planes into building.

          • Daniel

            c’mon son you can do better that

          • moop

            i didnt finish that.

            muslim terrorists are flying planes into building, not muslims. malaysia has some of the nicest people i have ever met.

          • moop

            damn troll, you must be pretty hungry. i won’t be feeding you anymore today.

        • Castro

          Worst people is too much of a generalization. I say we have a ‘Worst Person’ poll.

          My vote: whomever it is that disfigures a child intentionally so they can be put on the street to beg.

          anyone else care to participate in this poll?

          >>>>>>>>>

          @ Daniel,,, as a ‘Yank’ I thank you for the feedback and rest assured I/we will try harder next time.

  • Jarhead

    Life = 40.000 RMB

  • FYIADragoon

    What’s worse than a dead baby in China?

    • Pong Lenis

      Two dead babies?

  • Egolite

    The Chinese want to be a world power and you do backwards shit like this. How ignorant can you be?

  • Notorious

    A innocent human being was given a death sentence. This saddens me deeply. So innocent and pure, robbed of his life. It’s so unfair.

  • Appalled@everything

    THAT’S FUCKING MURDER!!!!!!!

    I don’t personally have any dispute with a woman’s right to have an abortion for certain reasons, but this.. this… FUCK!!!!!!!

    FUCKING MURDERING BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Dan

      Awww… how cute, someone who’s opinion doesn’t matter. Go back to jesus-land.

  • Pong Lenis

    I love that harmonious society!

  • Ch8

    Savages, rats have more morals than these scumbags may their lives end slow and tragic

  • Notorious

    This story is too intimate and too heartbreaking and I feel sleazy, and like a heartless voyeur, for having peeked at it. Then these monsters add insult to injury laying her deceased infant’s lifeless body beside her, as if she could cradle his poisoned body and will him back to life. I don’t know how these monsters can live with themselves, or even sleep at night after such a duty. It’s truly despicable to end a child. If anything, if you want to get rid of someone, look at all the worthless people walking around causing chaos and control population that way.

    • Appalled@everything

      Excellent comment!

    • anon

      Interesting. Who should decide who is worthless?

  • moop

    the officials responsible have supposively been suspended. and late term abortions are illegal in china

  • cc

    Well i think this is just extremely sad, no one has the right to forcefully take a life, especially that of an unborn child. Policy or no policy its wrong.

  • D. Tective

    Disturbing on oh so many levels.

    1: If she had 40,000RMB, the baby would not have been killed
    2: Against multiple laws, including the constitution
    3: The photos are unbearable to see, why show them?
    4: Apples to oranges, those responsible will be no punishment at all

    • moop

      the ccp hands out birth quotas, these guys are just trying to keep their jobs. the ccp will suspend these cretins with the hopes of everyone blaming them and not the central government. they are both to blame

      • jin

        you know nothing moop, dont make up lies.
        abortion is not allowed in the later state of pregnancy.
        these 3 officials did something wrong.
        the woman did something wrong.
        the end.

    • anon

      chinaSMACK is better than the other translation sites. At least they used the censored/blurred photos. Then again, maybe they should’ve used the originals so we’d see exactly what many Chinese netizens saw themselves.

  • The Enlightened One

    This is truly saddening. They kidnapped a pregnant woman, beat her, forced her to go through such an ordeal alone and then murdered her baby.

    Since they didn’t TELL her family, they didn’t even really give them an last ditch effort to get the money together. I bet they could of raised 40k RMB if given the proper help rather than ripping the unborn baby from her. Sure, she broke the one child policy but this is NOT the way to handle it.

    Anyway, I knew this story would come out on ChinaSmack cause I read it yesterday in the news. It seems like the high-up government officials got really angry (dunno if they were really upset or just to appease the public) but all the government officials that took part in the ordeal were swiftly relieved of their posts. Happy to have heard that in the very least.

    • strophy

      Got a link to the news showing the aftermath of this, that the officials were fired?

    • hooots

      Definitely to appease the public. This happens ALL the time. This just happened to get out on the internet and be especially shocking. The government only cares about it’s image in this case and every other… Take the Wenzhou train wreck for example.

      “Destroy the evidence!” That’s all they care about. The officials might just get suicided.

      • mr. wiener

        We’ll only find out if another pickup full of bodies overturns on the highway :)

      • Appalled@everything

        “Get suicided” – was that a deliberate play on words? I like it.
        Wasn’t a long-term jailed and now released dissident just found dead in his apartment after having only recently been released after serving 22 years in jail? I hear he “got suicided” too.

        • hooots

          Yeah it’s a common term in China. It means the government killed you. It happens all the time. You never know when you might get a little depressed in China and stab yourself 11 times. Yeah check that story out…

  • Small Bean

    It’s so hard to be a cadre member these days…poor little one.

  • Jahar

    I agree it’s wrong and horrible. I also agree that she knew the consequences. I don’t know what they were thinking. This stuff happens all t he time. Did she just think she would be lucky and they would miss her?

    I bet if the punishment was the mother or father’s life, there would be a dramatic decrease in situations such as this arising.

  • h3ll

    this and the 16 bodies news made me lost the faith in the humanity…

    • glowndark

      no need to lose your faith in humanity. the reason this being a nationwide outrage proves that humanity is still there in china to stay, and the reaction of the chinese people in general is more or less the same like the rest of the world as you can see them in the comments by the chinese netizens. God bless the internet with power to fight any in justice in the world as you can see. true that there’s no democracy in china at the moment, but mark my word: there will be soon! internet will watch china with camera dan video recording device planted in cellphones on, china has no power to fight this. These evil and backward-minded officials will be punished : http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/xinhua/2012-06-14/content_6187939.html

      • Nick in Beijing

        What glowndark said is a pretty fair statement. The outrage about stories like this shows that humanity is still worth having faith in.

        Now if upon hearing this story the majority of people reacted with indifference would be grounds to loose faith in the “inherent good” of people.

        • anon

          But don’t we usually say people just pay lip service on the internet and if it happened right in front of their faces they would be indifferent?

          • Sponge Monkey

            Glow is right. Think about ten years ago, there wasn’t even a forum to discuss these issues.

            But don’t we usually say people just pay lip service on the internet and if it happened right in front of their faces they would be indifferent?

            I can think of another country that thought that, and it didn’t quite work out for them. Starts with a T and rhymes with Munisia.

  • Sean

    I’m curious about how gets to pocket the 40K yuan fine.

  • nereis

    If the fetus is considered a person once it reaches 6 months of age, then what these officials have done constitute murder.

    I won’t even go into the various health risks of a 3rd trimester abortion.

    I’d even go as far as to say that these officials’ mothers should have aborted them.

    Long story short, what they have done is morally and professionally wrong. There is no society in the world that sees killing babies as inherently right.

  • Linus

    why do an abortion? Feed tha baby with some of that Yili baby food and let the mercury take its toll.

    • moop

      i’m going to hell for chuckling at that

  • Nick in Beijing

    In all the comments I read that blamed the girl, or issued a share of blame to the girl for trying to “skirt the policy” or some such thing, I didn’t notice anyone touch on a very important point when making considerations about such things in China.

    This girl may have been facing immense pressure from the family to birth another child. I don’t know why, perhaps the first child wasn’t up to family expectations, or maybe it was simply a matter of wanting more progeny.

    that’s not to say that WAS the cause, however it must be considered that given the norm in the Chinese countryside, this girl may have been facing enormous family pressure to get pregnant, or once it was discovered that she was pregnant, immense pressure not to abort. The average level of education in China paired with the lack of individualism among many of it’s citizens and low willpower or little sense of self would have made it next to impossible for an average country girl in China to stand up to the sort of pressure put on women here on a daily basis by family.

    The way I see it the girl was in a catch 22 where aborting the baby or refusing to get pregnant a second time could have resulted in huge consequences within the family that most Western women (or men for that matter) would find difficult to comprehend.

    • anon

      Interesting, you just conjured an entire complicated catch-22 scenario involving presumed generalizations without any evidence to support its relevance to this particular case, and based how you see this case upon it.

      I’m not saying you have no evidence for the generalizations you’re presuming, I”m just saying its a bit of a leap for you to bring all of that into this without there being a hint of them being involved in what we’ve read. Look at how many things you’re hypothesizing here:

      - Pressure from the family.
      - Reasons the family would pressure her.
      - Norms about the Chinese countryside (is she even from the countryside? What does her countryside look like?)
      - Her level of education.
      - Her lack of individualism.
      - Her willpower.
      - Her sense of self worth.
      - Huge consequences.

      All possible, just wish you had something more substantial to presume these things other than your generalized views on what rural Chinese people must be like.

      • Nick in Beijing

        @Anon

        Your request for less generalization is justified I totally agree. As I said when I made the original post I am not saying that was the case. But after four and a half years here and listening to well educated and successful independent women tell me about not being able to stand up to family pressure to to married, caving and marrying a guy introduced by mutual relations, and dealing with babies and marriage that they didn’t want it is an easy assumption for me to make.

        For as often as I’ve watched well educated and independent female Chinese friends struggle against family pressure to do her “duty” and get knocked-up, I have seen it much more commonly among friends, students, and neighbors who were not well educated, and were not so independent minded.

        I think it is reasonable to assume that there might very well have been great pressure from the family with regards to a second pregnancy.

        @ ming – Judging by your prior comments here I am starting to think you’ll simply get upset at any criticism of China, or generalizations about Chinese people. Not concerned.

        • Ming

          Nick, No i am not up-set by criticism of any government specially the Chinese government. I never said i thought what they did to the unborn child was right or legal.

          What gets my goat is KNOW IT ALL foreigners with their high moral stance on how “Chinese” should behave and think and treat each other. They think Chinese are barbaric and backwards and treat their own people with total disregards..” give them an education and better health care, pay them more and have equal social class etc ” The same people who come to china and benefits from the low wage and cheap living cost. These are the people who go and buy wal-mart, zara, h&m etc which is off the back of cheap labor. They are the first to complain when prices goes up and and more then happy to get a “deal”. Put your money where your big mouth is! why don’t you donate 50% of your expats wage to the poor? why don’t you go to Tienanmen square and protest for better living standards and wage in china?.

          Cowards! happy to sit behind a computer screen and complain about a country which you have sponged off and do nothing but make stupid meaningless comments.

          • Sponge Monkey

            Ming, I agree with you on many of your points. I personally don’t believe you can “fix” anything by just screaming “it’s broken”.

            However, by no means do I think that’s everyone on this site. Nor do I really think it’s the intention of most people on the site. Also, when you’re the fly in the soup, it’s pretty easy to generalize about the soup.

            On this thread, I have seen some great discussions. I’ve mostly stuck to reading them as abortion is one topic, I’ve learned, that can go from a friendly discussion to a bar room brawl in 60 seconds.

            The one child policy is perhaps China’s most controversial policy. On one hand, it’s generally agreed that China had to do something about it’s population. On the other hand, foreigners (and even quite a few Chinese) look at it as an infringement of rights.

            I understand your defensiveness (I’m assuming you’re Chinese) and not wanting to listen to people slander the nation. I don’t really see how Nick and Anon’s conversation is that, though. They’re commenting on their observations in China, and trying to understand the general mindset.

          • Sponge Monkey

            By the way, I’m an English teacher.

          • Alan

            why don’t you go to Tienanmen square and protest for better living standards and wage in china?.

            Because the last time your fellow compatriots protested at the square, it is now not mentioned or unknown by the current generation.

            Go and protest at the square, doubt we will ever hear from you again though….

          • Nick in Beijing

            @ Ming –

            “What gets my goat is KNOW IT ALL foreigners with their high moral stance on how “Chinese” should behave and think and treat each other. They think Chinese are barbaric and backwards and treat their own people with total disregards..”

            Sounds pretty butt-hurt over criticism to me. Not to mention racist. You’re a bleeding twat with his party hat on and an axe to grind. What happened? A foreigner stole your girlfriend?

          • Nick in Beijing

            @ Ming again

            — I guess I shouldn’t have replied so quickly before to that comment. It isn’t only you who is a twat. Not everyone in China gets upset at foreigners discussing and debating over social issues in China. In fact I often have lively discussions with friends and students. Too bad that those kind of people are in the firm minority and most Chinese view any foreign discussion about Chinese issues as an affront to Chinese integrity. You’re pathetic.

            Son of the rich, privileged and pampered, can’t comprehend the suffering of your fellow countrymen, arrogant because of the coddled lifestyle you lead. Am I generalizing? Yeah totally. However nothing you’ve said so far separates you from the typical child of the wealthy or powerful in China. Your comments about your jaguar (whether or not you really have one) only reinforce this.

            You’re nothing more than a member of the common nouveau riche of China. An ignorant peasant with money in hand, and you show the foundation upon which all of your arguments are based when you slam me and other foreigners for simply being foreign.

            Your half baked comments about having friends all around the world don’t make up for that either. Anyone can claim that, and I am willing to believe you do in fact have a collection of foreign friends but still doesn’t make up for your sweeping generalizations, so I’ll make some of my own.

            I’m glad you did so, however, because otherwise I may have taken some of your arguments seriously otherwise.

            Funny how so many Chinese fail to realize that when one spends the time to think about, and then attempt to criticize something it is often because they care about the thing they’re criticizing.

            I’ve lived here for nearly four and a half years, and I love my job as a teacher to death. I taught in the U.S., Japan, and now in China. It is my career path (although I would prefer to teach other subjects than what I’m currently teaching) and I have a vested interest in the development of Chinese society and seeing an improvement in the average standard of living of the people of China just like most of the other foreigners who are here long-term do. If China could develop a new school of thought independent of established and developed Western models (in areas such as economics, society, technology and education) that benefited the majority of people as well as many of those Western models do then I’d embrace that new school of thought wholeheartedly. No reservations about it being Chinese or anything. Too bad it hasn’t yet (as evidenced by this latest in China’s long and wide list of cruel injustices against it’s mass of uneducated and entirely powerless and poverty stricken citizens).

    • Ming

      The comments made are based on the story as written on this site, you could also say maybe some alien from outer space come and impregnate her and skip town because he didn’t want the burden of being a stay at home dad? so clearly not her fault right? Chinese government should jump on a space ship and go out there looking for this alien!

      • mr. wiener

        They did launch a rocket with a female takinaut today. Recon she’s out there looking for some deadbeat alien dad? :)

  • eattot

    so sad…
    but 40k?that much?my brother only paid 5k for my nephew.but sure, u need to wait till it’s your turn.
    i was born at home because i was the 3rd kid already.my mother never compromise,so at last they dared to come any more.she told them, either die with me or go away.

    • yakattack

      Why is your name Eattot?

      • Ming

        haha Chinese make up strange names for themselves eg

        REBORN
        KATE (A GUY HAHA)
        TOONS

        just to name a few i have met

      • Sponge Monkey

        Came from a broken billboard. Originally it was “eattot Joes”

        Bad bad bad

        Sorry

        • eattot

          who your?
          why you know my name?

          • Sponge Monkey

            I’m a fan. I just got to know you today through Little Wolf’s story. Please don’t shoot me.

          • mr. wiener

            YOU EAT SHIT AND DIE SPONGE BOB!!

    • linette

      ONE CHILD POLICY DOES NOT EXIST IN CHINA. now I know for sure.
      Now they need to find another way to control population.

    • jin

      @Linette

      dont know if youre dumb or just a troll but.
      The one-child policy actually only covers about 35 percent of Chinese, mostly those living in urban areas.
      and these 3 officials were just corrupt and abusing their powers.

      • Linette

        jin,
        so explain to me exactly what is the law of this one child policy in China. How does it apply? Fee and no fee. Rural and urban. Enlighten me. I am listening.

        • jin

          it does not apply to all chinese, only 35%.
          not every place have to follow this.
          google it? http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=128&catid=4&subcatid=15
          this, the one child policy does work, it does reduce population.
          http://www.china-mike.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/china-fertility-rate-chart.gif

          Ethnic minorities. The policy doesn’t apply to China’s 55 or so ethnic minorities (such as Uighurs, Tibetans, and Kazakhs) who make up about 8% of China’s total population.

          Rural residents. Local officials in rural areas will typically permit a second child, especially if the first one is female (this revision came after massive protests in the early years by farmers who rely on children to help work the land).

          When both parents are only children (neither has any siblings), an allowance is typically made to have two children.

          A notable exception was made after the devastating 8.0 magnitude earthquake in Sichuan province in May 2008. Of the nearly 70,000 people killed, an estimated 10,000 were children. Parents who lost their only child were legally allowed to have another child (similar exceptions are made in the case of deceased or seriously disabled children).

          Penalties (and enforcement) can vary depending on specific situation as well as by province and local municipality. Similarly, the law and penalties have continued to evolve (in general, becoming less draconian over the years).

          However, for the vast majority of people caught breaking the law, the penalties are financial—large fines imposed (which vary by region but are typically several times the average annual income). For those unable or unwilling to pay the fine, more heavy-handed tactics can be applied, such as seizing property and houses, being dismissed from jobs, or having their kids pulled out of school. The system also makes it difficult to hide unregistered children.

          But according to a 2008 Pew Research poll (Global Attitudes Survey in China), today about three-in-four (76%) approve of the policy. China’s increasing wealth and urbanization has contributed greatly to the “natural” societal tendency towards smaller families. The poll support this, showing that approval of the policy is highest among those with higher incomes (85%) and those living in cities (84%).

          Today, China’s current fertility rate (1.54 in 2010) is not far off compared to Hong Kong (1.04) and its wealthier Asian neighbors: Japan (1.20), South Korea (1.22), Taiwan (1.15), Singapore (1.10) [Source: CIA 2010 World Factbook].

          mweh, tired of copy and paste. just read it yourself.
          http://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/society/one-child-policy/

          • mr. wiener

            Good write up and link. Thanks Jin.

          • linette

            thank you Jin. Good read.

      • Dr SUN

        It does not apply to most minorities or rural families, go to Hainan and look at all the 5 to 8 children families, now / today and tell us China has a 1 child policy that anyone follows. LOL

        • jin

          read
          The one-child policy actually only covers about 35 percent of Chinese

      • Sponge Monkey

        Linette is neither dumb nor a troll. She was making an observation.

        I remember when I first came to China and people explained the one child policy. From outside the borders of China, we simply hear “one child policy” and think “that’s it, just one kid.”

        A discussion like this open’s people’s eyes to the fact that actually, as you pointed out, the one child policy is not that simple.

        I read the comments below you made, and it was a lot of good information. Now, quite a few more people know the real one child policy.

  • Mauro

    Why did they place the dead fetus next to the poor women. This is just monstrous.
    First they murder the child then she is made to look at their handy work.

    • Brett Hunan

      It sounds odd, but maybe she requested it

      • anon

        Wow, I didn’t think of that. I too was leaning towards assuming they were just incredibly sinister. That or maybe the people who exposed this story wanted to put it next to her to make the story and photos that much more visceral and shocking to get more public outrage.

        • The Enlightened One

          I think her sister or something placed it there and took a picture to add shock value so that people would get even more pissed off.

          Without the picture it sounds pretty bad but with it, it’s like WOW… this is just horrible, and that was the effect they wanted since they couldn’t get any help from the government…. may as well try with the media and the people… it usually works out better.

    • Dr SUN

      they aborted a fetus, no one murdered any one.

      • Sponge Monkey

        Oh no. I’m getting involved in this conversation.

        they aborted a fetus, no one murdered any one.

        From what I’ve read, the law in China clearly states that after 6 months, it is illegal to abort. Isn’t the reasoning behind this because after 6 months it’s considered life? If that’s the case, then wouldn’t this be murder?

  • matt

    the worst part is that was chinese jesus.

    • Mauro

      What do you mean by that.

  • glenn

    Abortion is horrible, being forced to abort the baby by people not even related to you is one of the worst thing that can happen. For once in my life, I am grateful for my government not doing anything as stupid and inhuman acts nor laws such as this.

    I know that CHINA is trying to curb their population growth but killing an innocent baby just to comply with it is unthinkable and pretty much unacceptable.

    • Dr SUN

      why is abortion horrible ?

      Get a vasectomy or cut your nuts off then and empower women.

      get real dude

  • Sponge Monkey

    I read this story on the internet before it was posted here. It was a difficult read.

    There’s not much to comment about this tragic story that hasn’t already been commented on, except my personal feelings, which is sadness. But there is something that I did find unusual.

    The story

    I’ve this translation 3 times, and unless I’m missing something or there’s a mistake in translation then this is pretty significant, isn’t it?

    “illegally took”, “forcibly induced labor”, “violently treated”.

    The way they reported this, in one sentence saying “after repeated persuasion by the county government cadres, the pregnant woman finally agreed to terminate the pregnancy” and two paragraphs later saying “She was violently treated on the way to the hospital because she continued to resist”. Very obvious.

    Isn’t this the kind of news that usually gets censored, or not reported at all? What’s going on?

    • Sponge Monkey

      Obvious should say “I’ve read”… I don’t know where my words go.

      • anon

        Isn’t this the kind of news that usually gets censored, or not reported at all? What’s going on?

        Too many variables to say any specific kind of news gets censored or not reported. Like raising a child, it takes a village to successfully suppress something. We should be thankful for that.

    • Dr SUN

      LOL, Spong, you must live in a little Utopian bubble in “telletube land” where real life does not exist

  • James

    celestial kingdom!!!

  • Sponge Monkey

    Scrap the one child policy and start giving out the death penalty for jaywalking.

  • 8mismo

    Old school thugs. Killing babies…

  • Unborn child

    It’s very sad…
    One of my friend 3 months pregnant with her second child.
    She is left her job and try to escape to another city till she deliver her baby as she scared if the officials found they will do her force abortion.

  • elizabeth

    The government should facilitate adoption (why is it so difficult for childless couples to adopt kids?), educate couples about family planning and have a proper welfare system going, but not to the extent of encouraging free-loaders. They could, for instance, set a limit for welfare entitlements beyond which the government will not be held responsible for their livelihood or their off springs. Sterilization if fine only if it is voluntary. Whoever insists that money buys entitlement had better not go bankrupt. If they do, they should not change their tune.

    This allows people to make choices but be responsible for their decisions. Win-win for all.

  • Pingback: Sorry Chinese Officials, 7 Month Abortion Apology Is Too Late

  • DeVitaVackra

    This is so macabre, it could have been handled nicely by writing her a bill and letting the debt collection office handle it from there. You know, like, working out a payment plan for her? What is wrong with this banana country if such basic services aren’t available. Should it even be called it a country, is it entitled to, when it is nothing more than a no mans land terrorized by the biggest gang? What is it entitled to when pregnant mothers get beaten up until their baby dies? Haven’t the discussion ended when it has gone this far?

  • The Enlightened One

    I was discussing this with some friends. We all agreed that overpopulation is a key factor in a lot of the problems with China, so perhaps the “one child policy” is important way to resolve many of these problems. But we also all agreed that forced abortion is a stupid way of “killing the chicken to scare the monkey”, if you will. Moreover, it’s inhumane and if China wants to present itself as a leader, these kind of actions simply won’t do.

    One big cause, in rural areas, is the desire for a male offspring to carry the family name. So a lot of couples will try for a second, third and even fourth child, until they get a boy. I hear this still happens in larger cities, quite a lot too, since more and more people move to the urban areas from the villages.

    I have heard a lot of stories of parents throwing a female child into a ditch or river because it simply wasn’t a boy and didn’t want to have to pay the fees to the government or risk trying again (only heard about this in rural areas). Not to mention, Hong Kong hospitals are getting swamped by wealthy Chinese trying to have additional children over there.

    We thought some alternative solutions could be:
    - Introducing classes on sexual education and overpopulation (is there any now?)
    - Giving women birth control and educating them on how to use it after one baby
    - Make an effort to change the cultural stigmata that only men can carry the name
    - Allowing free small medication operations (birth control) for the poor

    In a nation that is has held the Olympics, the World Expo and is building high speed railway systems across the country… there is no excuse why they shouldn’t take more preventive measures to solve this issue. Any other intelligent suggestions to help solve this problem in a more civilized manner?

    • T in the Jing

      Man, the measures are there. People refuse to use them. You know what the Chinese are like. They throw rubbish in front of their own doorsteps and pretend it’s not there. They lie constantly and ignore laws that are there to protect them. It almost seems part of the culture to get away with what you can when no one knows. What chances did that woman have to do the right thing? 7+ months of options is the answer.

    • http://www.bestvpninchina.com Rod

      I’ll tell you what the excuse is…It’s ‘traditional’, so there’s no way to change it. Name any bad habit in China, and someone will tell you it’s traditional. I had some douchebag girl tell me that she was traditional Chinese so she expects her husband to drive a BMW.

  • elizabeth

    How long has the one child policy been around? 30 years? Has it been effective? Has the Chinese government achieved it’s ‘population control’ goals? Are they flogging a dead horse?

    • anon

      Wikipedia is your friend:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_child_policy

      The government says it has been effective and many Chinese support it but there are criticisms for how it is implemented and enforced as well as criticisms of exaggerations in how effective it has been. I think most people would recognize that the policy has indeed lowered birth rates and slowed down population growth or reduced the population size that may have been possible absent such a policy. The controversy is mostly over whether or not these benefits have been worth the costs and it suffers from people putting a different value on different things.

      • elizabeth

        I like the last line. Yes, I am too lazy and thanks for doing the research for me :D

      • elizabeth

        I like this better:

        “Studies by Chinese demographers, funded in part by the UN Fund for Population Activities, showed that combining poverty alleviation and health care with relaxed targets for family planning was more effective at reducing fertility than vigorous enforcement of very ambitious fertility reduction targets.”

        From the same wiki page.

  • Dr SUN

    It’s a tough world, when you are a not a man.

  • Genevieve

    This is not just abortion, this is killing. The mother didn’t want this. This is so horrendous & disgusting. The world is watching China….when are you going to grow up & start acting with kindness? Not just in this situation but in so many situations. China is a backwards F’d up country!

  • Dr SUN

    Note this
    Ma Yinchu, the former president of Peking University who promoted the One-Child Policy, has 8 children himself.

    • Ning

      And he was born 1882. Probably had those children in the early 1900′s, when most were having that many or even more. Many didn’t surive at that era. He started promoting population control at a very old age, drawing conclusions from the overpopulated situation.

  • WTF…

    >”japanese evil”
    but recent chinese ppl are more evil to me….

  • jin

    have seen some stupid and good posts, but this is what i think and also some facts.

    1. OCP covers about 35 percent of Chinese, mostly those living in urban areas.
    2. late-term abortions are prohibited.
    3. she broke the law.
    4. the officials broke the law.
    5. corruption is getting lower every year.
    6. free education to everyone that live in urban areas are not possible due to the number of inhabitants.
    7. fk this im lazy

  • Dr SUN

    Are you all so stupid that you cannot see the photos are Photoshop or do do just so badly want to believe its real ?

    • Rick in China

      I do find it a little unbelievable that anyone would put a dead fetus next to a post-operation woman and take a photo.. my girl’s little brother had a baby last week and we went there for delivery, it was a _lot_ more restricted and the baby wasn’t even able to be seen for about an hour and a half after delivery. I think you may be right with the fraudulence of the photo, but it seems the action/what happened is pretty accurate based on steps and comments taken by the government afterwards.

      • Northerner

        It’s difficult to say whether it is Photoshopped due to the blurring effect. But the Dr’s comment did make me take a second look and it does seem that the baby’s body is not quite where it should be were it really lying on the bed, hovering slightly? Also, as may have been noted earlier the body has been turned over between shots.

        If this is a manipulated image and if the intention was political it is (digitally) up there with the works of Heartfield and Hoch.

        • Brett Hunan

          Okay now you got me interested. The baby appears to be real and appears to be dead. The baby was rolled over between shots, it is in the exact same pose, leaving me to believe the baby was dead at least 1 hr because the joints and elastic tissues have started to go stiff. There appears to be blood on the plastic and it is dripping off the side of the bed. If the pic was PSed than I would say the person who edited the photos did a pretty damn good job.

          What is at the baby’s feet?

          • mr. wiener

            Placenta, the afterbirth.

          • elizabeth

            I thought so too. Thought I was seeing things late in the night. Like something fishy, some sort of set up.

          • Rick in China

            The baby looks real/dead, but that doesn’t mean much – PSing images together is the point. The bed is the same in the photos with the baby and without – at least appears to be, both corner beds of the same type with same tile same dresser same garbage etc, just one has some plastic and a dead fetus. The size of the bed means in the top photos she’s absolutely crunched over on the side almost falling off “passed out” ish, do you think a hospital would put a woman in that sort of uncomfortable position after an operation/procedure and lay a dead fetus next to her for a long time, long enough to either roll/be pushed off of the plastic onto the floor of the room…let alone putting a dead fetus next to a passed out/nearly passed out woman? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Plus, if they did, would they allow some dude to start snapping photos? Does the hospital *want* to get into this mess? Why would they put themselves in the position to be scrutinized so badly….. just doesn’t click for me.

          • mr. wiener

            Chalk it up to cheap chinese healthcare maybe? Her relatives either told the hospital they wanted to take the baby\fetus and bury it themselves , “here have a red envelope *ka-ching!$*”.
            Or for all I know they put the fetus in the bin next to her bed [don't laugh, it's happened before].
            Ditto for the lack of them supervising what happened in her room. lots of patients, small overworked staff?
            Her sis brings the body in in a bag, gets her to move over, puts down some plastic and *hey presto!* internet sensation and some officials going out the door so fast it doesn’t have time to hit them in the arse.
            PS is of course a possibility ,but the scenario I just laid out [lack of care, possibility of money changing hands, lack of resources and overwork]is far more likely….and , well..Chinese.

          • Rick in China

            If they were able to “Ka-ching”, they wouldn’t be in this situation – think a hospital worker will put themselves/hospital in that kinda position for a _tiny_ bit of money? Loss of a job at hospital, being dragged into potential scandal, etc…. well, possibility, but I don’t think it’s so likely.

          • mr. wiener

            $200 rmb not $40k. very do-able.

    • Northerner

      Plus in the first shot her head is at the far end of the pillow and as pointed out she is right at the edge of the bed. In the second shot her head is almost centre of the pillow and her body appears to have move more to the centre of the bed. The fact that she has moved doesn’t mean much under normal circumstances, but she still looks drugged and she somehow appears to have moved her body rather than just her head on the pillow. And all the while someone is repositioning the corpse of the baby in some attempt to ‘art direct’?

  • hacienda

    the chinese elite dropped the ball in this one.
    how did this story leaked out and how come there are survivors.

    • Sponge Monkey

      That was my question to. Not only that, publicly, the central government is making a big deal out of this.

      1) They’ve suspended 3 officials (big deal, they always do that, although this was kinda quick)
      2) They apologized to the woman (again, big deal, but then again, when was the last time you heard the government say sorry?)
      3) They’re allowing her to have legal representation and allowing the lawyer to speak to the press. (He’s not her lawyer yet, and hasn’t been able to see her, so we’ll have to wait on that one, but it’s mentioned)

      What really blew me away, though, was Xinhua quoted the Family Planning Commission of China as saying “What the authorities did … represents a serious violation of national and provincial policies and regulations on population and family planning.”

      Maybe I’m looking too much into this. We’ll see.

Personals @ chinaSMACK - Meet people, make friends, find lovers? Don't be so serious!»