Japanese Man Executed for Drug Trafficking, Chinese Reactions

Lines of cocaine.

From NetEase:

Death Sentence Carried Out for Japanese Drug Smuggler in China, 5th Person in 4 Years

Global Times Consolidated Report — Japan‘s NHK television channel reported on July 25th that a 50-year-old Japanese man sentenced to death for trafficking narcotics in Dalian, China was executed in China on the morning of the 25th. According to reports, this is the fifth time China has executed a Japanese person since 2010 April.

The report says the executed Japanese person had conspired with another Japanese man, attempting to smuggle drugs out from Dalian, China and into Japan. Chinese judicial organs gave him the death sentence for this. According to disclosures by relevant Japanese government figures, the Dalian Office of the Shenyang Japanese Consulate General received word from the Dalian Intermediate People’s Court informing them that “this Japanese national death row criminal has been executed at Dalian Prison”.

The report says there have already been four Japanese people who have been put to death in Dalian and Shenyang of China since 2010 April, and this is the fifth execution by Chinese authorities since the normalization of relations between China and Japan in 1972.

NHK reported that in regards to this execution, the Dalian Intermediate People’s Court had notified the Dalian Office of the Japanese Consulate earlier this month, indicating that it would carry out the death penalty on a Japanese drug trafficker. The Japanese government, from the angle of protecting Japanese citizens, had gone through the Japanese Consulate in Beijing to convey to Chinese authorities its desire that “the death sentence will not be carried out”. According to information from relevant figures, this death row criminal had recently obtained permission to meet with family on the 24th.

2010 April, the Chinese judicial department carried out the death sentence against Japanese national Mitsunobu Akano, becoming the first Japanese person to have his death sentence carried out by China since the normalization of relations between China and Japan in 1972. 2006 mid-September, Mitsunobu Akano was arrested in Dalian. According to media reports at the time, Mitsunobu Akano had participated in drug smuggling multiple times in Japan. 2006 April, he frequently crossed China’s border, attracting the scrutiny of Chinese police. Including this man, a total of four Japanese persons have been executed. In recent years, there have been a succession of cases involving Japanese people smuggling drugs. In 2008, Japan and China ratified “The Treaty on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters”, but China and Japan at present still do not have a “Criminal Extradition Treaty”.

China takes a strict stance against drug trafficking, with the highest punishment being the death penalty, making no exceptions even for foreigners. However, under this kind of situation, some people still take the risk. 2013 October 31, Japanese Aichi Municipal Assembly member Takuma Sakuragi was arrested by Chinese public security organs at Guangzhou’s Baiyun International Airport for smuggling narcotics. Japan’s Foreign Ministry also recognized that drug trafficking is a serious crime under China’s “Criminal Law”, and so Takuma Sakuragi faced a maximum punishment of being given the death penalty.

Comments from NetEase:

yewj2000 [网易广东省广州市网友]:

It isn’t necessary to emphasize that it was a Japanese person. When it comes to drug trafficking, the person should be killed regardless of where they are from.

老纳是撸奶之王 [网易四川省成都市网友]: (responding to above)

Emphasizing that it is a Japanese person is to show that Japanese people have been bad all along and thus should be killed.

网易广东省佛山市手机网友 ip:121.9.*.* (responding to above)

Second floor [referring to above commenter] truly is retarded. It doesn’t matter what country a person is from, as long as they smuggle drugs, they should be given the death sentence.

natoaf [网易日本网友]:

This has nothing to do with relations and ideological differences between countries… Drug traffickers must be put to death.

网易北京市手机网友 ip:115.100.*.*

I think there should be discrimination in how this is handled, where those smuggling drugs into China should be killed, while keeping one eye open and one eye closed when it comes to those smuggling drugs from China to Japan. 😄

网易广东省手机网友 ip:122.13.*.* (responding to above)

I think with China being so strong and powerful, its people should all produce and sell drugs without using them, and sell the drugs around the world for world domination! Hahahaha!

日本省省委书记 [网易广西南宁市网友]:

The death of Japanese devils deserve no sympathy.

jy11120 [网易日本手机网友]:

There’s no need to bring up nationality because this has nothing to do with nationality. Every country has its own laws. If you clearly know you risk the death penalty and you still break the law, it just means you did so knowingly [intentional crime], and there’s nothing more to say. We can only hope that all people are equal before the law.

网易重庆市手机网友 ip:113.205.*.*

Good! I look forward to Abe also being put to death!

liaoyu72 [网易重庆市网友]:

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  • Teacher in China

    Must have not been giving a cut of the products (or drugs) to the “right people”. Used to see so much drug trafficking going on in Sanlitun when I lived in Beijing back in the day – hard to believe local police never knew what was going on there. Only reason I could ever figure for why no one was getting arrested was that the police or higher ups were involved in the action somehow.
    Anyone living in Beijing know if the trafficking’s still going on these days?

    • JabroniZamboni

      No one knows anything if the bills are paid in China.

    • ex-expat

      SO MANY fucking drugs in Salnitun. There had to be cooperation with the police. I moved away a little over a year ago and it was still the same. I read somewhere that there was a reasonably sized bust recently, but only god knows whether that will actually change anything.

      • JabroniZamboni

        They throw them (the cops) some country boys with a smidgeon of product for the cameras. Hong baos for everyone!

        Same with the Dongguan chickens. They bust them at Chinese new year, when everyone is gone. Hong baos for everyone!

        Once a year they crack down on black taxis. Hong baos for everyone!

        It is all a show. The “black hands” here are in the open. I see this without being involved in anything remotely shady. Common knowledge; the law is what you pay for it to be.

        • Dr Sun

          sad but true

        • Insomnicide

          Well Dongguan is dead now. So someone higher up probably didn’t get their hongbao.

          • JabroniZamboni

            Wouldn’t know. If you want the meanest, cleanest penis…I stay away from chickens.

      • Teacher in China

        I think it’ll be interesting in the coming years to see if there are any real teeth to this anti-corruption campaign Xi is going on right now. Wouldn’t it be interesting if it was legit and this sort of nonsense slowly faded into the background and eventually away almost completely? I’m still a little too cynical to believe it, but hey, I’ve been wrong before.

        • ex-expat

          It would be nice, but I doubt it, unfortunately. This goes back to some posts a few stories ago about whether they are either unwilling or unable to handle stuff like this. If they are unable to handle open drug peddling in the capital city, that is a big fucking problem.

      • Dr Sun

        So many fucking drugs in every town world wide

    • Surfeit

      Dunno about Beijing but SH is alive with drugs! Mostly good product too, and you can buy it rain or shine, day or night, in the back alleys of the French Concession or in the public spectacle of Nanjing lu. Chinese and foreigners dispensing anything you want to get your hands on with no fear of retribution from the ‘5”0’.

      It’s so bent it’s sideways!

    • Poodle Tooth

      So much drug trafficking within a literal stone’s throw of the police station. Like within earshot of it.

      Chinese cops are the best kind of cops: lazy.

  • AbC

    This would be one of the few positives of the Chinese justice system. At least they are not shit scared about upsetting foreign governments and execute criminals regardless of their nationality. Unlike Indonesia which doesn’t have the balls to execute when foreign presidents/prime ministers plead for clemency/leniency.

    • Irvin

      When you have the bigger stick you can afford to be bold.

    • Dr Sun

      If your are so stupid enough to try and smuggle/ be a mule to carry opioids into China, after China’s past experiences then you truly are a moron.

      • Probotector

        Akmal Shaikh blamed it on being duped because he had bi-polar disorder. As a doctor, what’s your opinion on this?

        • donscarletti

          Bipolar disorder is not sufficient to plead insanity in any jurisdiction to my knowledge. This is because there has been no evidence presented that bipolar disorder renders an individual incapable of knowing right from wrong.

          As for being a doctor. Firstly you were the one who brought up Akmal Shaikh’s bipolar disorder in this discussion so if you want to talk medical qualifications, so you should first prove your own. Secondly, insanity and criminal culpability is primarily a legal question, not a medical one.

          Edited:
          Oh, I see that you’re replying to “Dr Sun” who is named after a dead physician so it was a joke. I thought it was a cheap tactic to make a claim and shut out anyone trying to argue against it.

          • Probotector

            I’m not saying he wasn’t culpable, actually, he probably was, but there was a big deal made of this in 2009 or whenever it happened, and many bipolar celebs in the UK were coming to his defence. Dr. Sun has said he’s a surgeon working in China for a non-government organisation. I assume he would have some insight into culpability.

        • Dr Sun

          I have no medical/professional opinion I’m a surgeon not a psychologist or psychiatric physician.

      • JabroniZamboni

        To be fair, he was exporting them.

        • Dr Sun

          Thats makes it ok then, the Customs guys and police should make sure its secure and escort him safely to Japan, hand him over to the Japanese police who can ensure the mules safe passage to the Yakuza boss awaiting its delivery.

          • JabroniZamboni

            Hey man, bills paid are bills paid.

          • Dr Sun

            enough, we don’t need to know how you make a living or pay your bills, you certainly should not post about it online, after all the NSA/FBI ATF, DEA and SS , are all watching you !.

          • JabroniZamboni

            Apparently, it is custom to give the doctor 1000 kwai, hong bao style, before a woman gives birth.

            Do you think that my wife might be a drug mule?

            I certainly hope so.

          • Dr Sun

            You give each female Dr in HK a 1000 rmb for every baby she has a baby ?

            Are they all your babies these Dr’s have ?

            Seems kind of cheap, if I was a female Dr, I don’t think I’d let you impregnate me for just a 1000 Kwai

            or are you saying every resident in HK has by custom has to give every female Dr a 1000 each every time she has a baby ?

          • JabroniZamboni

            I can hardly call anyone a doctor here. I give all my money to Tsingtao.

          • Dr Sun

            pickling your liver and brain first, smart.

      • SongYii

        what drugs were being trafficked by this guy, anyway?

        • Dr Sun

          I have no idea I did not give him or pack the drugs for him, does it really matter which drug ?

          • SongYii

            Yes, from a moral perspective, it matters an awful lot. Perhaps from a legal perspective, it does not matter.

          • Dr Sun

            you like you nightly bowl of crack

            is that your moral defense ?

          • SongYii

            You are antagonistic and very boring, Dr. Sun.

          • Dr Sun

            I know all druggies tell me so.

    • Probotector

      True. China should be admired for this, as this is a genuine example of them being the morally superior.

    • Dick Leigh

      Why is this a positive? The people trafficking the drugs are rarely in any position of power. They’re usually people having a hard time, so they make bad decisions.

      In Canada, drug traffickers aren’t usually arrested, but their product is seized and the person is watched by police. If they traffick again, the police know who’s selling the drugs and they can bust the whole network.

      It’s not worth anyone’s time to go after the “small fries” that don’t influence drug trafficking operations.

      • lonetrey / Dan

        Perhaps the big fish are implementing this very system to setup their own fall guys! *dons a tin foil hat*

      • Zappa Frank

        I agree, reading here and there seems the justice has killed an evil dark prince, while maybe he was just a poor Christ that for some circumstance (that can happen to any one of us) ended up doing the mule…

  • JabroniZamboni

    I’m not a capital punishment kind of guy at all…however, as a foreigner in this country you know the rules; most importantly you know what can happen. This is generally a lawless place, but drugs are one thing you should steer clear from in this country. You reap what you sow.

    Still a pretty stupid thing to kill someone over.

    Corporal punishment > capital punishment.

    Get caught taking a dump on the street: 50 lashes.

    Get caught selling fake food: Angry Fisting.

    Get caught smuggling drugs? : You have to take all of the drugs.

    • AbC

      Isn’t that still capital punishment? Except you are causing death by overdose instead of a bullet to the head. Different method, same result.

      Drug traffickers deserve no sympathy. There should be capital punishment for them all around the world.

      • JabroniZamboni

        I’m more afraid of ingesting a kilo of drugs than a bullet to the head. Capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent right? Corporal punishment seems like a much more effective strategy in this regard.

        I, of course, would not want either of these options to be used in my native country; this is not my native country.

        If getting my ass fisted was a penalty, I would certainly not sell rat, fox, ayi, as pork/mutton. I would not boil shit to make cooking oil. I would not sleep unwashed in a bed of rice noodles before shipping them out after I was done with nap-time.

        • AbC

          I have a feeling that it’d be easier to introduce capital punishment into most countries than ‘ass-fisting’ as a form of punishment.

          • JabroniZamboni

            Only because “ass fisting” would be the best deterrent.

            What is worse? A bullet to the dome or a fist to the poop chute?

            I would never have to cry myself to sleep over a bullet to the head.

          • Probotector

            Well no, you’d be dead?! wft? Some out there people probably like having their asses fisted.

          • JabroniZamboni

            One finger feels groovy. I can’t imagine a fist.

            Let’s continue this thread as a roll call!

          • mr.wiener

            The only time a girlfriend of mine tried the “stink finger” with me (univited in a moment of passion) I screamed and flew off the bed.

          • JabroniZamboni

            The older you get, the more bored you get in the sack imo. I’m doing things now that I would have laughed at myself for doing 10 years ago.

            The finger is best when you are too drunk, and can’t come. The cool thing about Chinese ladies is that they are efficient in ass play. God bless them.

          • mr.wiener

            Some warning is always nice.
            For now when things get boring I can dress up as a Belgian milk maid and my wife can dress up as a German Panzer commander :)

          • JabroniZamboni

            Pffff. Vanilla imo.

          • Dr Sun

            video ????

          • Dr Sun

            take the little blue pill, not the red one. :)

          • JabroniZamboni

            take the oral fast acting jelly and some la jiao for the burning sensation. I love China.

          • Kai

            @mrwiener:disqus too

            Jesus Christ, I’m learning way too much about you guys.

          • mr.wiener

            I hate to have done nothing in my youth to regret in my old age.

          • JabroniZamboni

            It curves slightly to the right and follows the sun like a sunflower.

          • Dr Sun

            that is more than I need to know

          • Probotector

            You’re a bird? Actually, that was a lame joke.

          • mr.wiener

            Actually think more like a cat. In times of extremis every muscle in your body tenses and releases.
            I believe in this case I levitated.

          • Dr Sun

            probably happens in N.korea and Gitmo, if you’re looking for work.

        • Irvin

          You underestimate the amount of punishment a chinese asshole can take.

          • JabroniZamboni

            No, I don’t.:p

      • donscarletti

        It’s better since it removes any need to talk about intent to distribute or not. If its all for personal use, then you can just prove it by personally using it all. If you need all of that to get high, then get high for the court.

        Also, it’s proportionate, so if you get caught with like a huge rucksack full of weed and have to toke it constantly until it’s finished, then you’re not going to die, but you’re never going to want to go near weed again. If you get caught with a large amount of heroin, it will still be an execution, but way more pleasant than the one US uses for murderers. If you get caught with a big brick of cocaine, it’s going to be a pretty messy and nasty way to die.

        • JabroniZamboni

          It would also make for great youku videos.

  • Probotector

    Some good comments above.

    • lacompacida

      If it is a Chinese that was executed in Japan, then nationality is important.

      • Yes!

        That, I’m afraid, has a lot of truth in it.

  • Terminal01

    It’s funny, because it was under Victoria that Britain forced China to accept imports of opium.

    • blitzkrieg

      Ouch!

    • Trisha Tolkien

      Maybe at first but Chinese decided to use it and get addicted on their own, the Queen didn’t demand that.

      • Dr Sun

        no the dealers like the East India co, did it for her.

      • Jing

        Typical white guilt argument. So original. Brits and Jews used Opium to weaken China. You’re too stupid to know that, right? When you have a population of potheads, the country will be weaken. And those faggots will cash-in from the sales. Watch some Chinese movies. NOOB.

  • Raymond

    Smuggling drugs makes a person so unable to change his life around that he has to have his life taken away? What kind of drugs was it anyway? What if it was simply marijuana? Or how about if it was alcohol during the prohibition era? Would it be justified to have bootleggers executed too? Furthermore, he was smuggling drugs out of China and not into China. Isn’t he doing China a favor? Isn’t it a positive given Chinese attitudes that he is introducing drugs to Japan?

    • 白色纯棉小裤裤

      If you carry more than 50g heroin its death penalty.

      Other drugs will be converted to equivalent quantity of heroin based on a set of rules. 1000 g marijuana will be equivalent to 1 g heroin. So in order to be executed, you need to carry 50 kg of marijuana.

    • JabroniZamboni

      Your logic is severely flawed here.

      There is a law in place. The fairness of said law is irrelevant; every person attempting to smuggle is most certainly aware of the repercussions of being detected. If they try to flout said laws, the penalty is just. In every society you must abide by the rules of the land or face the consequences of failing to do so.

      It has nothing to do with being for or against capital punishment.

      Caveat Emptor and such.

      If you knowingly perpetuate an action in which can cause you death, and fail at it, it is only natural that death is the outcome. Life isn’t nice and fair, but play by the rules and generally the problems you have will be minor.

  • Science Patrol

    Apparently many Chinese people do not like Japanese people.

  • SongYii

    Unsettling how vicious they are toward drug use… if there is any country that would benefit from a toke now and then, its China, if for no other reason thn to abate the widespread alcoholism.

    • mr.wiener

      I think he was smugling something a little stronger than ganja.

      • SongYii

        im curious how many chinese nationals are executed for trafficking each year, and what substances, and how much. this japanese guy may have just been made an example of.

        • mr.wiener

          Yes, the article wasn’t very clear on the particulars.

    • JabroniZamboni

      Drugs are everywhere in China.

    • Sydney Ma

      You can buy every types of drugs at any backstreet market here in Guangdong, especially true in Shenzhen, let’s not forget firearms.

      • SongYii

        You buy lots of drugs and guns? :-D

        • Dr Sun

          LOl :)

  • mr.wiener

    I find it hard to feel too sorry for this guy.

    • vonskippy

      Yes it’s much better to applaud Governments when they take away a simple right as to decide what you will or won’t ingest/smoke/etc. After all, the role of the government is to decide what’s best for you and then kill you if you decide to think for yourself – didn’t you read Orwell’s 1984?

      • Probotector

        A lot of people did read that book, and many of them said ‘why not?’

      • AbC

        If it’s a right to sell narcotics that will eventually cause an otherwise ‘normal’ person to commit awful atrocities including murdering/assaulting family members for money to buy these narcotics to satisfy their uncontrollable cravings… then by all means, take away that ‘right’.
        Drug traffickers/producers belong in the same category as child molesters… those who deserve nothing more than a bullet to the head.

        • vonskippy

          Best start lining up Alcoholics to be shot then. It’s not the Governments role to babysit each and every citizen “just in case” they decide to do bad things. Most drug users, just like most car drivers, are neither a danger to themselves or to society – so why does the Government decide to prosecute one set but not the other – way more deaths are caused by cars then by drugs.

          • Yes!

            I’d say more deaths are caused by ciggies. If it were invented today, it’d be banned I suspect.

      • Insomnicide

        Drug users are ADDICTED to the substances they use. They cannot stop themselves. The most effective way to assist them is to intervene. Sometimes that requires an outsider. Of course, ideally it’s the local community, family and friends that come in and help readjust the life of the drug user. However not everyone is in the same circumstances, they don’t have family or their friends are also drug users, their local community is infested with drugs.

        So that’s when an authority figure would step in and attempt to stop their drug abuse. Until we find a better system, it’s left up to the law to stop people from picking up drug abuse as a habit.

        Now you can argue all day long about what is just as addictive and what isn’t. But substances like heroin and meth are universally unacceptable, they cause too much destructive effects on the user. And I’m sure you’d agree that society should work to end abuse of those particular extreme drugs. If they want freedom to do what they want, they already have it. They can do drugs if they want to, but putting their own lives, their own state of sanity and their friends and family at risk is the consequence they’ll receive.

  • Surfeit

    Somebody get in there quick and kung fu chop this man in half! That’ll learn ’em.

  • Insomnicide

    He would have been executed in Japan as well.
    Only the legal processing would take about 10 years to complete.

  • Sydney Ma

    Japanese justice is extremely punitive with drug traffickers as well. And it doesn’t matter whether he is from Japan, China or Foreignland.

  • mr.wiener

    Trapist or lambic ales please, none of that fruity shit you give the tourists.

  • Don’t Believe the Hype

    I see these comments about leaving national differences at the door and I think to myself, is this typical talk in China? In my experience, this has been the exception and not the rule. Hoping I’m wrong and this is changing, but if the shoe was on the other foot I feel like these comments would be very different.

    • donscarletti

      Oh, it’s completely typical talk when they get to kill a Japanese Devil.

      When a devil offends people however, then it is an insult to the entire nation.

  • Dr Sun
    • IsurvivedChina

      With respect Dr Sun, would you care to explain what the American Police have to do with his observation or were just trying to distract us?

  • Foreign Devil

    For those who say anyone caught smuggling drugs should be executed. .. Your tune will change if someone slips some drugs into your luggage, or mail, or your son gets caught.

  • Raymond

    I am only saying that the death penalty is not justified for drug trafficking. Your logic is flawed. If drugs were legal it wouldn’t be called “drug trafficking”. There is no such thing as “alcohol trafficking”. You also said that the legality of alcohol doesn’t make it better or worse than drugs deemed illegal. As this article doesn’t specifically say what types of drugs he was trafficking, it is important to note that marijuana is also considered a schedule one narcotic in the U.S.

    • JabroniZamboni

      1. “there is no such thing as alcohol trafficking”.

      -false

      In america you are prosecuted for the sales of illegal (bootleg or hooch that has not been taxed). This black market industry is thriving. The ATF does battle it. Same with illegal cigarettes.

      2.The type or class of the drug is irrelevant, as we are not talking about America, nor the laws of the US. US policy is not exactly a benchmark that the rest of the world measures itself by. Some critical thinking and understanding of the rest of the world could benefit you.

      3. Your logic is flawed because you are not demonstrating and logic at all.

      Myth busted.

      The justification of the death penalty is justified simply because the law is quite clear. Play with fire, get burned. Natural selection at its finest.

      • Raymond

        “The justification of the death penalty is justified simply because the law is quite clear” Just because a power/law is in place does NOT make the law just.

        • JabroniZamboni

          Please enlighten us to what defines a just law.

          Go on…

        • Yes!

          The law is suitably “just” if society/the community upholds it as “just”. Basic English law.

          In Singapore they have the death penalty for drug trafficking as well. It’s the most effective way to keep out the drug lords and manage drug trafficking to the very bare minimum. It may appear harsh to some peoples, but the society as a whole support it.

  • Dick Leigh

    Typical Chinese Government response: execute the drug mules, turn a blind eye to the guys actually selling the drugs.

    • KSC

      Cut the bullcrap. The law does not distinguish between drug mule or drug peddler. Its about possession. Just as in Malaysia, unfortunately, the drug traffickers are too smart to be caught with it so they employ drug mules who have to pass the checkpoints and get caught. The Chinese are very tough on drugs just as in many countries in South East Asia. But there are always idiots who think they can beat the system. But people whine about human rights or side with the accused claiming the local laws are corrupt. Take the Colby case in Australia. She even became a hero. You have no respect for other people’s laws and you wonder why US have a huge drug problem running all the other countries trying to supply the demand.

  • Probotector

    Let’s take stock of Dr. Sun’s most recent diatribes on CS:

    ⦁ Chinese traditional medicine is superior to Western medicine.

    ⦁ More people have been oppressed, tortured and killed in the name of Christianity, than by any other single group, ever, period.

    ⦁ The days of colonialism are over, but British and American special forces should be sent to Ukraine to secure the downed Malaysian airliner’s crash site and pacify the ‘terrorists’.

    ⦁ Nearly all expat English teachers in China are incompetent, uncommitted and unprofessional, and are only looking to victimise Chinese females (of all ages from childhood to adult) for sex.

    ⦁ It’s the fault of the American upper management of KFC and McDonalds that contaminated food has been served in their Chinese restaurant branches, even though the food items in question would have been processed, manufactured, distributed, stored, prepared and served by Chinese employees from the companies that are responsible for these things.

    ⦁ Any significant social problems in China, be they commonplace or not, are never representative of the Chinese people as a whole, and things are always worse in America.

    ⦁ To speak in broad, general terms about the commonplace/omnipresent problems of Chinese society, is the same as absolute condemnation of all Chinese people.

    ⦁ Anyone who has a negative opinion of China must have never lived here, but was instead only a tourist here for two weeks.

    ⦁ Talking about criminality among the immigrant population of the United Kingdom (even if one has explicitly stated it’s the majority of said population that is criminal) is akin to Nazi propaganda.

    ⦁ Illegal immigration and conquest of a nation by military force are the same.

    There’s no need to reply to or challenge any of the statements he makes, because it’s such a futile endeavour. It’s abundantly clear from the information above that there’s no reasoning with him, as he’s intransigent to the last in his belief in, and espousing of, liberal lunatic leftist views and platitudes, despite their fallacies and inappropriateness. He will not waiver, he will not compromise; his mind is made up. he has a vendetta against Western people and their beliefs, ideas and morals; attacking them at every turn, and defending anything which opposes them or seeks to undermine them. Nevertheless, he’s entitled to his views, no one can change them, so we must accept that they exist, ignore them and move on. Talking to him is really not worth anybody’s time or effort.

    • Germandude

      I have to agree with you that @Dr Sun has been very strange in the last couple of weeks. He was once known as a commenter that managed to post well-balanced comments, criticizing where criticism was needed. And supporting/defending where necessary. Recently, that has completely changed into propaganda statements, stupid generalizations and feeding biased opinions.

      I remember a day a couple of weeks ago where he posted like 10-15 comments which seemed to be pure trolling or, as anther commenter mentioned, his account being hijacked by somebody trying to destroy his rather good image here.

      Personally, I hope the real Dr Sun is returning before its too late.

      Having said that, @Probotector, I also gotta ask what’s wrong with you recently. Now I know you’ve been through some private shit that I feel very sorry for you, hence my condolences earlier on.

      However, you have changed a lot too. Unfortunately, to the worse. Every second of your posts in the last couple of days contains ridiculing “liberal lunatic leftist views and platitudes” or the like. As if being liberal was sth bad that you can use as an insult. The first time I heard somebody making fun of “being liberal” was my politics and history teacher when he talked about the Hippie movement. That guy was 67 years that time and went to a nuthouse a year later.

      As if “being a liberal” is sth bad. Quite contrary, being a liberal is usually a sign of having a wider horizon. I am not arguing the US republic and liberal parties. I am talking generally.

      You, Probotector, have shown multiple times in the last couple of days, that you don’t like liberals. Great. I tolerate that. Hopefully you can for once tolerate that others don’t need to agree with you. And that there is not just black & white, but a much much larger grey area in between. Grow up dude.

      • Probotector

        When I talk about liberals, I’m referring to the kind that want to stifle debate based on what they find ‘offensive’. Being open minded and tolerant is okay. It’s the difference between the modern politically correct liberal and the classical Voltairian liberal.

        Now, you’re telling me to grow up and that you hope I can for once tolerate that others don’t need to agree with me… seriously?! I guess you missed the part where I said:

        “Nevertheless, he’s entitled to his views, no one can change them, so we must accept that they exist, ignore them and move on. ”

        How is that immature? I’m taking the moral high ground.

      • Rick in China

        Ignoring the Sun-is-a-waste-of-time related banter which is all on point and not worth further elaboration, the liberal part – maybe the word isn’t being used the same in different scenarios..

        Personally I’m all about liberal ideals – and would define liberal in this sense as tolerant, open-minded, and adaptive/progressive.. although my comments don’t always reflect that :D

        • Germandude

          Well then maybe I was wrong. I agree with your definition of the word and its meaning. What I think @disqus_5xS38xIeTi:disqus is doing a lot lately is using the word liberal, or calling somebody a liberal, in a bad context. Like if somebody tries to downplay some incident, it’s because he is a liberal. If somebody tries to explain why some Chinese is doing sth odd (to us), that person is a liberal downplayer. And so forth.

          That’s where I see the problem.

          • Rick in China

            Could be totally accurate.. I was just pointing out that for me, personally, I may call someone a libtard or something – with negative connotation – even if I sort of agree with their stance had it been toned down or reworded.. perhaps especially so when I think it’s being taken over-the-top and the person is beyond what I’d consider a reasonable progressive, but rather an extrapolation of the ideal into ridiculousness. I’m not saying that’s what happened in the cases you’re talking about, but maybe, because I’m sure my comments often come off as conservative or ‘far right’ sometimes even though it’s rarely the case that I’m in actuality on the political right of an issue.

  • JabroniZamboni

    It sounds better than it would be. You would most certainly hate weed after that for llife.

  • Xio Gen

    Maybe he should have been extradited to somewhere Japan has an extradition treaty with? Or is that not possible? It’s like Xi wants to provoke Japan.

    • Yes!

      What extradition? The violation occurred in Chinese territory, specifically Dalian, hence he should be subjected to the local law there. This has nothing to do with politics, even if it can be easily politicised.

  • PAUL 442

    Death for drug trafficking is a little harsh and I’m very conservative. What ever happened to 10 to 20 years in the can?

  • Misiooo

    Death penalty for tax evasion.

  • David

    Has anybody else seen this story or seen it in Chinese? http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/07/22/china-pink-women-only-parking-spaces-spark-backlash/?intcmp=obnetwork

    About a shopping mall in Dalian with 20 spaces painted pink reserved for women. The spaces are slightly wider than the other spaces and all the people in the west see is sexism. LMAO

  • Sydney Ma

    You can also eat those “funny looking eggs” sold on the roadside (:

  • Yes!

    Most of the China netizens’ comments up there seem pretty sensible and rational, except for that last one. Not long ago, a Filipino female was also executed for drug trafficking.

    Regardless of nationality, the same death penalty must apply to all drug traffickers.

    USA should adopt this legislation if she seriously want to control the drug problem there, especially that coming from south of the border.

  • Yes!

    What’s missing from the report is whether the locals who manufacture the drugs to sell to traffickers like the said Japanese individual have been rounded up and executed. Or did they pay off the police RMBmillions to enjoy free pass? I’ll bet this drug gang has the backing of someone very high up the CPC tree, even in the Politburo.

  • Yes!

    That’s why China is now investing heavily in Britain since Li Keqiang’s visit. They’re on course to economic colonisation of Britain; matter of time before the Chinese “force” the Brits to do whatever.

    • Dr Sun

      I don’t think the Chinese have to force anything the recent heat wave showed the collapse of civilisation in Britain, children shitting and pissing openly everywhere, on public beaches, in parks in the subway. Adults exposing themselves and conducting sexual acts in public and worst of all eating cold uncooked processed miscellaneous meat products and inorganically grown vegetables (I believe they call it a Salad)

    • Deft

      It will be a long time. The Chinese are starting to invest in the UK, but they have a long way to go before they are our masters.

      Out of 1559 foreign invested projects, the Chinese only had 72 as of 2013. They aren’t even in the top 10 in terms of foreign invested stock.

      The vast majority of foreign investment in the UK comes from The USA and Europe, by a huge huge margin.

      Yes, the UK is targetting Chinese sovereign wealth investment funds to invest in UK infrastructure and economic projects, but they are also targetting other BRIC countries. These are natural areas to grow foreign investment.

      The UK is second only to the USA in terms of foreign direct investment, the scale, scope, breadth and diversity of investment is mindboggling.

      The suggestion that somehow China is going to dominate all the other investors in any near term future is just silly and borne from ignorance.

      http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140403154217/http://www.ukti.gov.uk/download/591580_194620/UKTI%20Inward%20Investment%20Report%202012-13.pdf.html

      http://www.cityam.com/1405852602/uk-foreign-investment-highest-europe-and-second-highest-world

      People really should educate themselves more before running off their mouths, just makes them look stupid.

  • AbC

    I’ll assume that it’s a serious question rather than a rhetorical one making fun of it. It’s suppose to resemble a look of intimidation (fingers pointing to angry eyes). Never occurred to me that it may look like a duck

  • Yes!

    I’m not even sure if they know they’re being a laughing stock. In their universe, wealth is everything, enough of which buys power over and subservience from other “lesser” beings. “Class” can’t buy lunch, but $$$ gets you everywhere. In China, there’s a saying 笑贫不笑娼, which underpins their society’s moral code: it’s better to sell sex than to be poor. One of China’s often-ignored economic drivers is prostitution (local and overseas) and mistressing. Good or bad, this obsession with getting rich is going to put more power into Chinese hands in the future, and unless western and first world countries start getting more productive and less giving on welfare to get the lazy population off the couch, you’re gonna have to get used to an uncultured unsophisticated and uncivilised people ordering you around at your workplace in the not-too-distant future. For the sake of the whites, I pray and hope that day never comes. For first world Asians, we’ll adapt quickly enough, although we’d hate having to kowtow to a backward culture.

    • Alex Dương

      The irony is that the same thing was said about your ancestors not too long ago. Oh well, guess that $64,584 PPP-adjusted GDP per capita got to your head. After all, you have “Chinese ancestry,” don’t you?

      • Yes!

        Nah. You got it wrong mate. The society I described above is the one that we’re seeing now, today, not during my ancestors’ time which was way back when. Most immigrated Chinese have very little or no contact with their ancestors. Those who have tried have often encountered conflicts with the mainlanders; just two very different worlds. Muricans are more fortunate, they don’t seem to suffer the same issues with theirs. Must be uniquely a Chinese thing.

        • Alex Dương

          I don’t think you realize how old your fearmongering is. I caught a lot of flak the last time I told you this, but I’ll say it to you again: you have issues with self-hatred.

          • Yes!

            LOL! Thanks for the link, I burst out laughing although I didn’t finish reading it. Nope mate, I ain’t intentionally fearmongering. If there’s any hint of fear at all, it’s probably my own, of them mainland Chinese wanting to muscle into South China Sea like a neighbourhood thug that they are, muscling in on the world’s advanced economies that have helped built a better of quality of life for many countries, which now look worrisomely close to being affected by China’s “peaceful rise”. Their economic rise is not the problem, the problem is their desire to expand their CHINA influence – CHINA PRIDE – economic, cultural, political – which means spreading their culture (or lack thereof), their mentality, their social norms, habits, their lack of respect for rule of law, and all that, through their people. I have quite some bit of contact with Chinese-owned businesses in my country; they bring their own mainland staff to work on professional passes, but dealings with them are appallingly difficult because they don’t understand or ignore the rule of law in our country. A number of them have been convicted of legal violations, but the process of legal recourse is long and costly. Some ran off when the authorities asked them to report for questioning. This is just one example I may cite here for my disdain for the mainlanders, but their economic clout is undeniable and they know how to use it to influence local politics. So, it’s not implausible that one day we may all have to give up the “universal values” of our first world civilisation and become like them in order to survive. Fear-mongering, no. Worst-case scenario, yes. And nobody can be sure it won’t turn out that way.

          • Alex Dương

            There is no meaningful difference between what you’re saying and what others said 100 years ago. None whatsoever.

            You’re talking about the Chinese, quote, “spreading their culture (or lack thereof), their mentality, their social norms, habits, and all that, through their people.”

            Compare to this to what Alfred Deakin, former Attorney General and Prime Minister of Australia, wrote over 100 years ago: “It is not the bad qualities, but the good qualities of these alien races that make them so dangerous to us. It is their inexhaustible energy, their power of applying themselves to new tasks, their endurance and low standard of living that make them such competitors.”

            What’s the difference? There is none. You are simply rehashing what others have already said long ago.

            What I don’t get is why you have issues with self-hatred. I grew up as a minority; I never lived or went to school in a part of the U.S. that had a substantial Asian population. I got over my self-hating issues in high school. Presumably, you grew up in Singapore, which is majority ethnic Chinese. What’s your excuse?

          • Yes!

            Alex, maybe you have roots in China and you feel that sense of loyalty to the motherland, well, that’s good for you. I have no emotional connection with them. I don’t get why you think it’s “self-hatred”. I don’t think it’s self-hatred, rather it’s the jarring difference in values which I cannot identify with the mainland Chinese, and which I cannot appreciate. I hope you’re not another one of those who think, whoa, you’re Chinese, so am I, wow, we’re brothers, and “we should stand together to debunk all criticism of Chinese”, regardless of whether there’s merit in said criticism? If so, then that’s precisely what’s wrong with Chinese society. Every body value their “面子” few people are willing to speak the truth even if it hurts the other party. So the other party goes on with his merry life doing the same wrong. I have some Chinese friends (yes I do) who frequently cautions me about speaking frankly in a direct manner lest it offends the other Chinaman. I know of one Chinese guy, an ex-PLA man, who hates his wife-to-be’s cousin for her leeching ways; I asked him why don’t you just tell her off. His reply: “No, let someone else teach her the lesson”. I’ve heard this before. This is one characteristic of Chinese relationship which I do not like. This is just one example of Chinese-ness which I abhor. And by the way, my Indian friends who have visited India can’t stand the way Indians back home conduct themselves either. Maybe it’s generational. We’re all post-war babies. And even though the Chinese in Singapore are ethnic Chinese, Singapore Chinese identify themselves first as Singaporeans 新加坡人, not中国人.

          • Alex Dương

            Why is it self-hatred? Hmm, let’s see. You’ve previously talked about how you think the Chinese are genetically inferior insofar as they innately lack creativity and leadership. Immediately after I called you out on that, you claimed your ancestors were from China. Huh, let’s put one and one together; doesn’t that mean everything you said about “them” applied to you as well? No answer, of course; just some nonsense about what my “agenda” was.

            Now, even more hilariously, you’re resurrecting 100-year-old stereotypes about the Chinese and acting as if you’ve come up with some new “criticism.” You haven’t. You merely rehashed what others already said a long, long time ago. You’re completely clueless that these same “criticisms” were once used against your ancestors not that long ago. All you can say is “well, it’s different this time.” No la, it isn’t.

            Of course Chinese Singaporeans don’t identify as 中國人; they aren’t Chinese citizens. Don’t act dumb; you know perfectly well Chinese Singaporeans have no problems identifying as 華人.

          • Yes!

            Whoa, looks like you’re been tracking me. Are you into the “I must bust this guy” mode? Is it that vengeful spirit that characterises the Chinese? Mate, I express what I think, what I feel. I don’t have to be perfect for anyone. If you don’t like what I say, you can choose to ignore. I’m perfectly happy with that.

            You said “Of course Chinese Singaporeans don’t identify as 中國人; they aren’t Chinese citizens. Don’t act dumb; you know perfectly well Chinese Singaporeans have no problems identifying as 華人.”
            How does that equate to me “acting dumb”. Aren’t you quick on the trigger. I said that because I’ve met MANY Chinese mainlanders who often expect me to stand by what they said even though they were in the wrong. Typically, they would say “你是中国人” and then “why are you siding with the other party”. I’m speaking from experience. Maybe you can differentiate easily, but many of your tong bao can’t. Maybe it’s time you meet them.

            I’ve noticed you’re in the habit of attacking me personally which I find quite disconcerting. For a moderator I find that rather unacceptable…. You can disagree if you wish, not everybody thinks the same. When is a Chinese able to learn how to agree to disagree without getting personal? Are you on a mission to persuade other Chinese to love Chinese mainlanders? Is this a “Chinese must love motherland” thing?

          • Alex Dương

            Or maybe it’s very easy to remember someone who talks about Chinese genetic inferiority and then immediately says that he has Chinese ancestry. Nah, that’s too simple, right? Obviously, such remarks are pedestrian and can be heard everyday.

            And please, drop the act. The first thing you do whenever I call you out on your nonsense is to play the “motherland” card. So your cries of “personal attacks” mean nothing to me.

            You’re free to express your views here; nothing you’ve said violates the rules at cS. I’m also free to tell you that if you want to roll with your genetics story, then everything you say about “them” applies equally to YOU, and your “criticism” is nothing new. In fact, it’s very old; you unknowingly rehashed what had already been said over 100 years ago.

            But let’s see if it’s possible to open your mind. How about you explain how Singapore became one of the wealthiest countries in the world despite having a population that is mostly Chinese in origin?

          • Kai

            What the hell?

            He remembers your past comments and brings them up to explain why he feels you evidence a sort of self-hatred, and that’s him “tracking” you with a “vengeful spirit that characterizes the Chinese”? No, that’s just him knowing who he’s talking to.

            Disagreeing with you and being critical of your positions is him thinking you have to be “perfect”? No, he’s just disagreeing and being critical. Just like how you disagree and are critical of mainland Chinese. Are they supposed to come back with a retort that they “don’t have to be perfect for anyone”?

            He said you were acting dumb by not understanding his argument that you, as an ethnic Chinese person, evidence some measure of self-hate in how far your stereotype and disparage other ethnic Chinese AND conveniently forget that your own ancestors suffered the same stereotypes and disparagement. He wasn’t referring to you refusing to toe the line out of shared racial/ethnic identity. He has no problem with that.

            How exactly is he attacking you personally? How is it different from what you’ve done in the past and how you upvote personal attacks against others you disagree with? What is up with this disingenuous hypocrisy? Taking issue with your comments and behavior on cS is not “getting personal”.

            When is a Chinese able to learn how to agree to disagree without getting personal? Are you on a mission to persuade other Chinese to love Chinese mainlanders? Is this a “Chinese must love motherland” thing?

            What is this nonsense? Straw man much? When did Alex’s disagreement over specific things suddenly become him being “on a mission to persuade other Chinese to love Chinese mainlanders”? If I disagree with your dislike for McDonalds, does that mean I want you to “love” it? What the hell?

          • Kai

            Right, and you’re guilty of the same prejudice and bigotry that many Hong Kongers and Taiwanese are (not to mention Shanghainese, etc.) as well as other Chinese diaspora have

            Your mistake is not in having differences in values with many modern mainland Chinese. Your mistake is in thinking and fearmongering that the mainland modern Chinese will always be what they are like now, conveniently forgetting how your own ancestors suffered the same stereotypes and contempt but have become what they are now. If your own can, why can’t the “mainland” Chinese?

            Your mistake is in taking your relative superiority in certain things for granted and believing the target of your prejudice will always be what you deem them to be. That’s arrogance, hubris. Too much of your own “mianzi” is built on categorically disparaging the mainlanders, because deep down in your heart, you know the “truth” is not the stereotypical petty prejudices you happily espouse and upvote on cS. That isn’t the “truth”, that’s what you want to overemphasize and harp on in order to set yourself apart, in order to reinforce your own self-identity and self-worth.

            Disagreement and criticism over differences is one thing, but you cross over into self-righteousness and conceit.

            And that hubris is also a historically tragic “Chinese” mistake.

          • Yes!

            And by the way, Alex, that Alfred Deakin quote. It makes for good debating point, but really, the fact is, the Chinese bring with them not just the good stuff – yeah, hard work, the willingness to “eat bitterness”吃苦, and all that (great for labour work), BUT that’s not all they bring!
            They bring their pooping on our streets (yes it happened, although not as much as in HK), their rudeness and lack of courtesy (maybe nuanced cultural differences but heck, it’s annoying and they don’t want to adopt our cultural norms), their tendency to get into fights, their bullying tendencies ( you know, that My Father is Li Gang mentality, even in Singapore!) and more….and an increased crime rate.

          • Dr Sun

            for a moment I thought you were a descendantt of the founding fathers in the 13 colonies talking about the Irish and Italians, then I saw your descendantt of a Chinese migrant to Singapore.
            Interesting

          • Alex Dương

            It’s completely lost on him that everything he says about the Chinese now was once said about his ancestors who migrated from China to Singapore. Because, hey, it’s different this time.

          • Yes!

            No, it’s you who are completely lost. When the Chinese immigrants came to Singapore, the island was just a fishing village. It was not a modern HongKong-style first world city, it was the boondocks. At that time, the locals and the Chinese immigrants were the same in terms of economic and social development. So there was hardly any jarring differences between both groups of people. The only obvious difference was the colour of the skin.

          • Dr Sun
          • Alex Dương

            So your ancestors came to Singapore back when Alfred Deakin’s words were contemporary and not historical. Singapore isn’t Australia, but that isn’t the point; Deakin’s sentiment applied to all Chinese seeking to move anywhere outside of China.

            And this gets us back to a question I just asked you in another reply: how did Singapore go from fishing village to first world city? Why didn’t these poor Chinese immigrants fuck up Singapore?

          • how did Singapore go from fishing village to first world city? Why didn’t these poor Chinese immigrants fuck up Singapore?

            Your posing of this question perfectly encapsulates how you internalize your misinterpretations of Yes!’s points.

            You can’t help but think that Yes! must be self-hating. It’s inconceivable to you that Yes! could actually just be referring to the PRC. You’re so insistent on believing that Yes! secretly hates himself, his family, and all his fellow Singaporean Chinese, that despite his repeated singling out of PRC citizens, you still subconsciously think that you’ve “tricked” him by asking a question which would only be relevant under the assumption that his true prejudice is toward poor Chinese (华人) immigrants, rather than PRC citizens, be they rich or poor (and more often than not, they’re rich, as Yes!’s comments describe).

          • Alex Dương

            It’s inconceivable to you that Yes! could actually just be referring to the PRC.

            That would not explain the genetics comment. Genes don’t recognize political borders; you yourself made a similar remark yesterday when Teacher in China commented that a Kazakh woman “looked Chinese.”

            As I just wrote to you elsewhere, it truly befuddles me that you are so eager to defend him when he makes literally racist comments and when he (unknowingly) resurrects yellow peril fearmongering. You learned what the yellow peril was in U.S. history, yes? You realize that what he was saying about “them” now is fundamentally no different than what was said then, yes?

            So why, Matt, why do you let these comments slide?

          • Alex Dương

            I read Deakin’s words differently. He was being politically correct in a time where “political correctness” did not yet exist as a term / recognizable practice. He’s not really talking about “good qualities”; he’s saying exactly what you’re saying but with a genteel spin. Fundamentally, there is no difference between what he said and what you are saying; you are both warning of dire consequences if “we” don’t keep “them” out.

            Well, it’s been over 100 years since he made those remarks. Australia today is 12% Asian and 4% Chinese. Australia is also one of the wealthiest countries in the world in per capita terms and one of the most developed. Hmm, those dire warnings sure panned out, didn’t they?

            And of course, we’re not talking enough about your country. How did it come to pass that a country that is majority ethnic Chinese developed to the point of having a PPP-adjusted GDP per capita of nearly $65,000? Shouldn’t these peasants have fucked up Singapore?

          • Yes!

            From this post, I realise you’ve got it all wrong. The Chinese I’m talking about is the not race per se, since you’re saying if Chinese are farked typed peasants how could they transform Singapore into what it is today. I don’t wish to go into a long essay about how Singapore is what it is today and since we’re 65% ethnic Chinese, Singapore should’ve become another wasteland.
            Point 1. Singapore was a British colony, and we inherited the British system of governance, with a very good public administration. (Same as HK). With this system, and under the first PM’s vision and leadership after independence, Singapore grew. The govt also dealt with race issues without prejudice, legislating a number of laws to prevent racial flare-ups, that’s how the country remained stable which enabled its growth. Many Chinese mainlanders might protest at my next sentence – Singapore invited almost all Japanese corporations to invest in the country – (mind you, the Japs not long ago had invaded S’pore and murdered a lot of Chinese) which created an abundance of jobs, until we didn’t have enough workers for them. So we imported them from our neighbour Malaysia.

            Now, the important part: our first PM is a Chinese hakka. China at that time was under Deng. China was trying its damnest best to influence local politics, to establish a communist-Beijing friendly regime at that time. I even read the Red Book which my father brought back from China. The book was banned at that time. Oh I had access to a lot of People’s Daily, with their nice covers of kids with cherubic cheeks and touching stories about bare-foot doctors (not sure if you know). But I digress. How is it that the S’pore Chinese PM chose the western-style of governance to build the country? (This should anser your question above). He’s Chinese, and he’s got 65-75% support from the Chinese. I remember very clearly, my father said he would vote for this PM. Because he set the tone for Singapore – jobs, no corruption, meritocracy, rule of law, transparency. To hell with communism and China, he said. My father was born in China and came here at age 15.

            Fast forward. Singaporeans have grown up under a different political, economic and social system. We are the products of this system. The mainland Chinese grew up under a totally different system, the characteristics of which everybody here knows too well and which I often criticise strongly. I don’t need to detail them. Is it any surprise that we have two DIFFERENT Chinese here? We have enjoyed and come to appreciate the good in our system viz a viz the mainland China system (Just as many Hong Kongers have). The different systems shape the mentality, culture and social norms of its citizens. If you’re in the US doing your studies, you should be able to comprehend this part.

            Another example. We Singaporeans value our multi-racial mix. We get along well and work with Malays and Indians. But the mainland Chinese who have come here, have refused to or avoided them. While we can speak generally 3 languages, the mainland Chinese speak 99% Chinese putonghua. Not even a smattering of English, even though our Singapore “putonghua”, the language that binds the four races, is English. These Chinese mainlanders of whom are many (including the millionaires running away from Xi Jinpin), if they settle down and have children, will not understand the importance of embracing all four races in our lives, work and play. This is not good for the future, the unity of the country. Do we ever have “Love my motherland” studies forced down our throats? Unlike China, No. We have our daily flag-raising ceremonies in school; we respect our flag and we do not go overboard with the “We love our country” thing that many Chinese display. But make no mistake about it.

            So, as you can see, our system, our environment, shape our personalities and individual characteristics. It also affects how we look at each other, regardless of our ancestry or skin. Hope this is not difficult for you to understand?

          • Alex Dương

            So Singapore went from fishing village to first world city because it wisely made good use of its inherited British institutions. This may come as a huge shock to you since you view me as a “motherland” fanatic, but…I agree with this.

            See, if deep down you know the reason why Singapore developed is INSTITUTIONS and not RACE / GENETICS, then why on Earth do you insist on making stupid remarks about genetic inferiority? Why do you resurrect 100-year-old stereotypes of the Chinese if you know INSTITUTIONS are the key? You’ve never answered this question: do you realize that if you choose that route, everything you say about “them” applies equally to you?

            Oh, and I already told you several times before, but you clearly missed it each time: I’m not “in the US doing my studies.” I was born in the US. I grew up here. My loyalty is to the US. I call you out not because of some nonsensical “motherland” fanaticism, but because you should know much better than to make these dumbass comments about genetics and the yellow peril, yet you do it anyway.

          • Yes!

            I understand now where you’re coming from. But hear me out, won’t take long.

            I may appear to have jumped the gun at that time, so let me add: Chinese, given their…um…genes or DNA or cultural traditions and mindset (communist mainland mindset)….are they ABLE to set up the said INSTITUTIONS that would give the country the floor on which to build a great thriving and respected nation? That is what I’ve been getting at. And that’s why I said what I said. The way things are going, with their so-called 4,000 year history of doing and living the same way, I highly doubt it. Even the current political struggles at the highest level hark back to the old internal fights during whatever emperors’ reigns. Different regime, different players, different time, same power s.h.i.t. Nothing there tells me it’s gonna be different next year or next decade. Perhaps, it’s just a Chinese thing?

            Chinese have thrived in many other countries, such as Australia, USA, Singapore…..in sharply different systems. But not in China! (Except for the well-connected, who didn’t work for their millions but leeched off peasants and cronys and the state’s assets).

          • Alex Dương

            Now, see, that’s very different. Had you said that originally, I would have agreed completely. 100%. That is indeed a valid criticism of China. It has no self-hating aspects whatsoever.

            We probably agree on more things than you think. I admire many (but not all) aspects of Singapore, especially its economic freedom. I hope you’ll recognize that I called you out not because of “feelings for the motherland” but because as you wrote those words then, they were literally racist. With these revised words, they are not racist in the slightest.

            If you feel that way about the Chinese today vis-a-vis “them” bringing their culture, habits, and mentality where they go, fine. It’s your right to have that opinion. Just know that you are resurrecting what was already said over a 100 years ago.

          • Yes!

            Well, for the record, I don’t know what was “already said over 100 years ago” and I don’t know who is this Aussie PM guy or what he said.

            As for what I first said about the Chinese genes, I really did’t want to write a thesis here so I just went straight to the point. This is Chinasmack, a fun place mostly. I didn’t think you/anyone would be that serious. But anyway. Thanks for engaging.

          • Alex Dương

            Now you know what “yellow peril” was and is. If you feel that way, fine. But as I see it, what you’re saying is no different than what Deakin said for Australia and what led to the Chinese Exclusion Act in the U.S. in 1882.

          • Now, see, that’s very different. Had you said that originally, I would have agreed completely. 100%. That is indeed a valid criticism of China. It has no self-hating aspects whatsoever.

            That’s what I was trying to tell you the whole time! Sheesh.

            Yes!‘s “clarified intent” was obvious to me at the time he made his original remarks. You’re trying to make it sound like I was acting unethically by defending his original remarks, but the only difference between our situations is that I understood his actual meaning many months ago whereas you apparently didn’t understand his actual meaning until just today.

            Not everything should be taken literally. Sometimes people use hyperbolic figures of speech; that’s just something you have to accept.

          • Alex Dương

            You assumed that was what he meant. When I asked him for clarification back then, he refused. He doubled down and asked me if I had an “agenda” instead of simply saying this was what he meant.

            As I’ve said to you several times now, it really blows my mind that you are so eager to give him the benefit of the doubt / a free pass for some very questionable remarks, to put it extremely mildly. In general, you do not do this; hell, if anything, you do the opposite: you assume the worst in others instead of the best. You once accused me, from my perspective out of nowhere, of thinking that Obama isn’t a “real American.” You didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt, so it is absolutely astonishing to me that you are so willing, so eager to do this for someone who was literally being racist and who is resurrecting yellow peril fearmongering.

          • Kai

            Uh, what? How is that “very different”?

          • Alex Dương

            I read it as “other countries have developed free, prosperous societies; why can’t China? I don’t think they can, but prove me wrong” / “how come Chinese can do better outside of China than inside?” Both of those are very different than “the Chinese can never do it because genes lol.”

          • Kai

            I read this:

            I may appear to have jumped the gun at that time, so let me add: Chinese, given their…um…genes or DNA or cultural traditions and mindset (communist mainland mindset)….are they CAPABLE of setting up the said INSTITUTIONS (add: or system of government) that would give the country the floor on which to build a great thriving and respected nation?

            Hence, it doesn’t look “very different” from what he has said before.

          • Alex Dương

            I think there’s a difference between “I don’t think you can do it, but prove me wrong” and “you can’t do it ever lol.” I also think that had he said this to begin with, the ensuing discussion would have been more productive.

          • Dr Sun

            I have to ask do you know or does anyone know which particular genes/DNA it is that the Chinese have, but no- one else has, which are capable of setting up the said institutions?

          • Alex Dương

            Of course, anyone can set them up. It isn’t easy, but there is no innate genetic restriction preventing anyone from doing it.

          • Dr Sun

            That wasn’t the question, the qustion was can anyone answer this :

            Chinese, given their…um…genes or DNA..are they CAPABLE of setting up the said INSTITUTIONS.

            I just need to which gene(s) are responsible.

          • Alex Dương

            Ask Yes! This is an example of what I mean by the discussion would have been more productive had he said this to begin with. He can’t answer the question, and accordingly, the discussion would progress and become more concrete on what the actual problems are.

          • Kai

            I think you might be interpreting (and representing) his argument/response there more favorably than it actually is. My issue with him is that he has repeatedly said “you can’t do it ever lol”, but now that he’s been pressed repeatedly, he finally talks about “inputs = outputs” (basically, he articulates something akin to Chinese needing to stop being insular and learn from others).

            However, even as he does this, he still couches too much in terms of genetics and absolutism. His language is still very white man’s burden-esque, that it was the British or whatever who civilized the Chinese, who if left to their own devices would forever be mired in relative inferiority…that he still argues is right to be characterized as “genetic”.

            You know me, I’m not one to deny that people need to learn from each other, that good ideas are good regardless of where they are from, but this guy is less “I’m bearish but I’m willing to be pleasantly surprised” and more “I’m bearish and I don’t care what you say because I know what I know and what I know is objective truth”. If you look at his comment history, he’s less interested in productive discussions than he is in simply passing judgement. In many ways, he’s almost (ALMOST!) as bad as Linette.

          • Alex Dương

            I think you might be interpreting (and representing) his argument/response there more favorably than it actually is.

            I said much the same to Matt, and I accept this as a criticism. Yes! finally addressed the comment in greater detail, which I viewed as an “accommodation” of sorts. In turn, I felt I should reciprocate. I think this has led to a discussion that is much better than what we had back then.

          • Kai

            Yeah, I understand. I just feel his accomodation did not warrant the accomodation you reciprocated.

          • Kai

            Holy Christ on a cracker.

            Chinese, given their…um…genes or DNA or cultural traditions and mindset (communist mainland mindset)….are they CAPABLE of setting up the said INSTITUTIONS (add: or system of government) that would give the country the floor on which to build a great thriving and respected nation?

            The implications of your (rhetorical) question here is that the Chinese genetically are incapable of setting up institutions to improve their nation, but OTHER races/ethnicities with OTHER genes are.

            And that’s why I said what I said. The way things are going, with their so-called 4,000 year history of doing and living the same way, I highly doubt it.

            Then how the hell did those other races/ethnicities with their genes do it? For thousands of years, they too were “doing and living the same way”. All that is admirable and relatively superior about other nations were not always there. They didn’t come into existence like that. They have become what they have over time, shaped by countless factors, launched and set back by history and circumstance, achieving what they have now all at different paces.

            You want to say mainland China is behind the curve? Sure, many can accept that. It is far behind so many other countries regardless of how far ahead it is of others. That’s fair. But your entire line of thinking here is riddled with logic fallacies. Every nation and society has at least 4000 years of history just like the Chinese. It isn’t as if you don’t understand the nuances of the whole 5000 year schtick that Chinese have, so why use it as a stupid argumentative point? China is where it is today because of a host of historical reasons both self-inflicted and inflicted by others. Every country is. It’s wrong for China to think the blame lies all in others. It’s wrong for others to think the blame lies all in itself.

            This is something a first-worlder should deeply understand at his core.

            So why are you making stupid arguments?

            Nothing there tells me it’s gonna be different next year or next decade. Perhaps, it’s just a Chinese thing?

            So if some guy says that about Black American society, would you really entertain “it’s just a black thing”? Or let’s lower it down to ethnicity and use “Indonesians”?

          • Yes!

            Kai, sure I understand you won’t like what I’m stating up there. Fine by me. Doesn’t mean I’m stupid or irrational, and doesn’t mean you’re more right than I am. We can argue until the cows come home and we’ll still be at opposite sides.
            Whatever the reasons may be for China being “behind the curve” – internal, external, whatever, 4000 years of evolution is a very very long time, with the whole historical experience of a supposedly “superior” race coded into the memory of the Chinese, yet China only got this far, now struggling to catch up with the others. And often, their own people having to glance sideways to take benchmarks from the first-world civilisations. You may argue all you want, but you cannot convince me that all races are born equal, much as individuals are not born equal – some are more talented than others, some have lower IQ than others, some can sing and dance while others are better at maths. Similarly, idiosyncracies exist with the white men, the yellows, the browns and the blacks.

            I don’t want to have to spend hours debating with you over this, so I’ll just want bring attention to the fact that two cities which were former British colonies – Singapore and Hong Kong – which inherited the British system of governance with a competent public administration and adherence to meritocracy, where the largely Chinese population (Singapore – immigrant population) have built into two of the world’s best-to-live-in cities with first world standards comparable to many of the better cities in Europe and USA. The point Alex Durong wanted to make was that it’s because of presence of such INSTITUTIONS of governance that enabled the population to build an economically stable and prosperous city for its people, and I agree. But imho, that’s not the Whole reason. Since I’m on this subject now, I’ll venture to say that – at the risk of you and the others taking out the knives again – those institutions of governance were left behind by the British, not created by the Chinese. Left on its own volition, without the prior presence of the British, it’s highly unlikely the Chinese population would opt to establish such institutions, because of big brother China. In Hongkong’s case, the British colonial government ruled it until 1997. Singapore became independent in 1965. Our first PM Lee Kuan Yew, also of immigrant Chinese descent, having lived under British rule and seeing how it had put Singapore in better state than any in Red China, preferred the British system of governance. It must be noted that large sections of the local Chines population still had emotional bonds with their old village in the mainland, but economic development was what everybody came for, so they followed this Lee guy and Singapore is what it is today. I want to add that LKY was trained as a lawyer from Cambridge University i.e. someone exposed to the western system. (hence, the rule of law is strong here, albeit a bit too strong in some aspects). This exposure, coupled with actually experiencing the virtues of the British system, helped groom him to make those RIGHT DECISIONS that set Singapore on her trajectory till today. Had it been one of the other politicians who campaigned on Chinese motherland chauvinistic feelings getting into office at that time, where do you think we would be today? Singapore (and Malaysia) had to fight off Beijing-supported communist guerillas in Malaysian jungles as they were attempting a Mao-style revolution to seize power in Malaysia and Singapore. There were communist-supported cells in Singapore instigating for political upheavel to turn Singapore into a vassal state of Red China. Heck, I used to love to attend their Red Guard-style musical productions during that time. Had they succeeded, we’d be a satellite town of China but we’d be economically non-viable nor culturally advanced as we are now, because we don’t have the huge resource-rich hinterland that HK or Shanghai enjoy. Or maybe not. We could’ve become boat people fleeing to Australia. Our neighbours would not have tolerated a Communist Chinese frontier in their midst, especially Indonesia, which massacred a lot of their Chinese because of fears of communism.

            This is getting too long, so let me summarise it in another way. I’m sure some of you will feel offended, and will brand me a racist. No offense intended, I have my reasons to say what I’m going to say.

            Take some mainland Chinese, who have never stepped out of China, only studied in some Tiensin or Beijing University, put him in the Politburo. China will still be China as we know it today. The 4000 year Chinese may throw up some very bright men, but having been on boil inside the Chinese culture all through their developmental years, you cannot expect any different from them past present or future. What you input = output.

            Then send all those Lee Kuan Yews and mainlanders who have been educated at Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, live inside the Singapore system, US, UK, and so on, and put them all into the Politburo. I’ll bet my life, China will be a very different country economically, socially, politically and the culture will be shaped accordingly.

            I know of a number of Cambridge-educated Chinese fellas, now working here in government-sponsored organisations. They’re brilliant, not only academically, but also they know how to look at their own country from outside the China box objectively. They try not to return to China. Because the system there, the environment, is not conducive to their own development. First, they must love the CPC, or else they won’t stand a chance career-wise. Meritocracy is almost non-existent; people who can think outside the China-box i.e. independently, are not welcome there. They must toe the party line. Now, if the party chief or provincial head is an idiot, then the downline have to do idiotic things too. How can bright well-thinking well-educated guys who can solve difficult problems unique to Chinese society by applying rational objective thought do their jobs properly and impact their society if their own survival depend on total obedience to their intellectually-inferior boss whose only claim to deserving the top job is his long-stay loyal cadre membership, currying favour of higher superiors and family network and/or giving of bribes to secure the job? Remember, in China you can’t embarrass your boss, or make him look less competent than you are unless your wish is to be “promoted” to a permanent job in inner Mongolia or Tibet. (Yes this applies everywhere but it’s especially pronounced in China). This is what’s happening in and choking up the China Chinese system. Like me, they can see what’s not going right in their country, and what they don’t like about it. A talented politician like Lee Kuan Yew may be the best talent to turn a China into a behemoth of a civilisation that out-competes, out-militarise and out-grow USA and the rest of the world, but then the 4000-year political and cultural tendencies of the Chinese system and its people might just not give him that chance – others around him, seeing how good he can be and hence a threat to their own political aspirations would’ve conspired to send him to a long stay in jail for “social harmony” crimes or some other hitherto unwritten violations.

            You guys slammed me for being racist. I can understand because probably in your world, racism or rather anti-racism is legislated into your system. It’s almost like any discussion that may remotely sound like “racist attack” is a big no-no and must be taken to task. Reacting sharply to any hint of “racism” becomes second nature to some of you. Nope, it’s not like in my country we go on racist tirades at every opportunity either. If you’ve ever spent some time here, you’d realise we don’t NEED legislation to respect other races living among us. I’m making my statements based on objective observations. I live in a world where I get to experience both the China world because of my ancestral roots, and the western world because of public institutions inherited from the British and a prominently western social, educational, political and economic orientation.

            Let me make another statement, you guys might go on murder rampage after this. Chinese tend to work much harder here, 10 hour days are almost the norm. Our Malays prefer to be, um, a bit less competitive, they prefer an easier lifestyle, hence are economically not as intense as the Chinese. The common caricature is that Malays love to pick up the guitar and just “relax one corner” rather than spend prolonged hours at work. You might go “Fucking RACIST!” On the contrary, these are common “stereotypes”, perceptions, that all Singaporeans can identify with. It’s no disrespect. These are candid observations of tendencies displayed by each culture, born of nature or genetic or whatever reasons. Another killer: Filipinos are much better at making and performing music than, say, Indians. Well, there are thousands of Filipinos working in China pubs as musicians. You don’t get Indian musicians there. We’ve had lots of Filipino bands and performers here, absolutely awesome performers. Is it their cultural attribute or is it just some random coincidence totally unrelated to their culture or genetic orientation? Did I just make another “racist” statement?

          • Alex Dương

            You may argue all you want, but you cannot convince me that all races are born equal, much as individuals are not born equal – some are more talented than others, some have lower IQ than others, some can sing and dance while others are better at maths. Similarly, idiosyncracies exist with the white men, the yellows, the browns and the blacks.

            Individuals are not born equally talented in all aspects, but this hardly means “all races are not born equally.” Hardly. Historically, IQ differences within groups (e.g. white subgroups) have been as large as differences between groups; that shouldn’t be the case under “all races are not born equally” since subgroups are of the same “race.” Also, I’m not sure if you can explain why we seldom see Kenyans winning 100m sprints or Jamaicans winning marathons, even though the majority in both countries are “black.”

          • Kai

            Doesn’t mean I’m stupid or irrational

            It does as long as people think you are stupid or irrational for the things you say.

            and doesn’t mean you’re more right than I am.

            It does in the eyes of those who find what I say more “right” than what you say.

            We can argue until the cows come home and we’ll still be at opposite sides.

            A big reason is because you resist putting some genuine thought into what others are saying or disagreeing with. You’ve repeatedly interpreted disagreement, objection, and criticism as being “personal” thereby excusing yourself from actually considering the validity of those things. Arguments make progress and people reach measures of consensus when both sides discuss in good faith, acknwoledging the points made by the other. Do you do this? No, you don’t. That’s a problem also.

            Whatever the reasons may be for China being “behind the curve” – internal, external, whatever, 4000 years of evolution is a very very long time, with the whole historical experience of a supposedly “superior” race coded into the memory of the Chinese, yet China only got this far, now struggling to catch up with the others.

            Holy crap. You have a conclusion you want to hold onto and categorically dismiss (“whatever the reasons may be…”) anything that would challenge that conclusion. That’s stupid and irrational.

            You may argue all you want, but you cannot convince me that all races are born equal, much as individuals are not born equal – some are more talented than others, some have lower IQ than others, some can sing and dance while others are better at maths. Similarly, idiosyncracies exist with the white men, the yellows, the browns and the blacks.

            Right, individuals are not born equal. Races though? You’ve got to be kidding me…Matt you seriously have no problem with this guy’s speech?

            I don’t want to have to spend hours debating with you over this, so I’ll just want bring attention to the fact that two cities which were former British colonies… […one really long comment that puts even my comments to shame because at least I use paragraphs…]… which massacred a lot of their Chinese because of fears of communism.

            All completely irrelevant to the points I made. I made very specific points. All you did was retate why you think HK and SG are superior to the mainland, which does not address ANY of the points I’ve made against you.

            Then send all those Lee Kuan Yews and mainlanders who have been educated at Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, live inside the Singapore system, US, UK, and so on, and put them all into the Politburo. I’ll bet my life, China will be a very different country economically, socially, politically and the culture will be shaped accordingly.

            No shit, I’ve said the same thing, and do you really not see how this is already happening in China? Did you not see how the PRC went from peasant revolutionaries to technocrats in a generation? What do you think the next generational step is going to be? Where do you think China’s leaders of tomorrow are being educated? You want to criticize the way things are now, fine, there are plenty of good criticisms, but you consistently paint China as unchanging and never changing. That’s just myopic and prejudiced.

            I know of a number of Cambridge-educated Chinese fellas, […] conspired to send him to a long stay in jail for “social harmony” crimes or some other hitherto unwritten violations.

            This was one long rationalization of why you think China will never change premised upon a bunch of logical fallacies. You have yet to adequately respond to Alex’s rebuttal that this rationalization of yours doesn’t address how OTHER nations and societies managed to break their cycles and evolve beyond what they were for so long. All you’re doing here is repeating ad nauseum why you are bearish on mainland Chinese and mainland Chinese society. It’s fine to be bearish, but it’s stupid and irrational to be absolutist.

            If you’ve ever spent some time here, you’d realise we don’t NEED legislation to respect other races living among us.

            You’ve got to be kidding me. Singapore needed legislation to get its residents to respect other races, and it is because of the legislation that Singaporeans today are better at respecting other races than they were BEFORE the legislation. Did you seriously just lie through your teeth suggesting Singapre didn’t need multiracial/cultural legislation? Is that why there’s a Racial Harmony Day? Is that why there’s a national pledge? Is that why the Singaporean government has such tight controls over art and performances involving topics about race and religion?

            Singapore owes much of the relative racial harmony in its society today to the legislation and government efforts of yesterday. Like I said, you take for granted what you have today, conveniently forgetting all that came before in order for it to become what it is.

            I’m making my statements based on objective observations. I live in a world where I get to experience both the China world because of my ancestral roots, and the western world because of public institutions inherited from the British and a prominently western social, educational, political and economic orientation.

            No, living in a cross-cultural society gives you the opportunity to see things more objectively. It doesn’t guarantee it. I’m happy to discuss the objectivity of your observations. The problem is, you aren’t. When your observations are challenged, you either ignore the challenges by changing the subject or simply redeclaring yourself to be “objective”. That doesn’t cut it.

            Let me make another statement, you guys might go on murder rampage after this. […] Did I just make another “racist” statement?

            More irrelevance. Are you really going to boil your position down to “hey, what I said isn’t arguably racist, this is just how we Singaporeans talk”!?

          • Kai

            You understand how mainland Chinese personalities and characteristics were shaped by the system and environment of their times.

            You understand how your own and your ancestor’s personalities and characteristics were shaped by the system and environment of your times.

            So why are you so bearish on mainland Chinese personalities and characteristics continuing the be shaped by the evolving systems and environments of their times or the different systems and environments they move to?

            That’s your problem.

          • Lots (not necessarily most, but “lots”) of Singaporeans have negative opinions of mainlanders. Lots of Koreans, Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, and most Japanese also have negative opinions of mainlanders. Are they all self-hating, as well?

          • Alex Dương

            Again, Matt, I have never understood why you have always been so willing to give Yes! a free pass for these types of remarks. He has clarified them in another post, so let’s make one thing clear. There is a huge difference between the following two remarks:

            1. Many countries have developed prosperous, free societies. Why can’t China do the same?

            2. Chinese people can never be democratic or free. It’s in their genes.

            The first is a completely valid criticism of China. The second is literally racist nonsense. So why, Matt, why do you excuse him when he does that? Instead of faulting him for being literally racist, which you usually do to others, you ignore it and direct your criticism to me for accusing him of having issues with self-hatred, as if that’s much more offensive than saying that an entire nationality is genetically predisposed to be oppressed and poor.

            Seriously, Matt? Now, Yes! has clarified his remarks, as I said, but would he have clarified them if no one had ever called him out on it? No. You always think that he was just joking / being facetious. Again, why do you give him a free pass when you don’t give others free passes for racism? Makes no sense to me.

          • Yes!’s own ethnicity makes a massive difference in the context of those words.

            I sweat nothing over people talking shit about their own in-groups. Americans hating on Americans? I don’t care. Whites demonizing whites? I don’t care. Jews rallying against Israel? I don’t care. Bill Maher making fun of liberals? I don’t care.

            There is a world of difference between the above situations (in which case the speaker knows that it doesn’t literally apply to everyone, because that would include himself, which would be absurd since he’s the one making the criticism in the first place) and an “outside group” member generalizing another “outside group”, in which case there is a far greater potential for unqualified generalization, since the speaker himself does not serve as a reminder of the existence of exceptions to the rule.

            As someone who’s half Jewish, I often get sensitive over viciously hateful remarks about “Israelis” (which is often used as a codeword for “world Jewry” without regard to citizenship). So occasionally I’ll get into a scuffle with someone who demonizes Israelis, and encourage them to stop generalizing. One time, a total Israel-hating lunatic I was arguing with made it apparent that he is in fact himself Jewish. I immediately stopped being concerned about his hatred because I realized that no matter how rabidly and viciously he hates Israel and its supporters, he would never overstep and take his anger out on all Jews, which is something that many non-Jewish anti-Zionists do.

            If some white guy like Probotector or Wodowsan started talking about how Chinese are genetically racially inferior, then yes, of course I would go into fact-checking mode. But I know not to take Yes!’s comment seriously because it’s so obvious that he doesn’t actually think he’s genetically predisposed to the problems that he thinks plague PRC citizens but not Singaporean Chinese.

          • Alex Dương

            I think you mistook a symptom for a cause. I’ll use racial / ethnic humor as an example. Sometimes, I hear people complaining about how they’ll be called racist if they make a joke about other races whereas people from those races joking about themselves aren’t racist. The misunderstanding is thinking that it’s race that lets you make the joke without being pegged as a racist. In reality, it’s UNDERSTANDING that lets you make the joke successfully without being called racist.

            When you UNDERSTAND experiences that people of a given race routinely experience, you can use your understanding of those experiences to make jokes that those people will relate to and thus laugh at. That’s the true cause. Unsurprisingly, people of that given race are most likely to have had those experiences, and they’ll be most likely to pull the jokes off successfully.

            When you don’t understand the experiences, how can you expect your audience to relate to you? You’re making jokes based on your perception of others, not based on an understanding that you share with them. Not surprising that it might go bust.

            This doesn’t mean that people outside of that race can’t successfully pull off the jokes, and it doesn’t mean that people within the race are guaranteed to have had those experiences. I recall you yourself said that never experienced any anti-Asian racism or prejudice when you grew up. I hope you don’t think that your experience is the predominant one because it isn’t.

            Everything I just said applies to this discussion in particular. I see no reason to give people “within the group” free passes and extra scrutiny to people “outside the group”; I don’t assume the best from those “within the group,” and I don’t assume the worst from those “outside the group.” I treat everyone equally and fairly. Ironically, for someone who often calls out others for racism, you yourself are not treating people equally when you do this.

          • We simply have different priorities. I oppose racism on the grounds that it can be dangerous and end up harming innocent victims. By that metric, racial self-hatred is not a concern of mine. Academic discussions about the “costs” of racial self-hatred do not worry me as much as the more tangible dangers of xenophobia, which can manifest in physical violence (e.g., pogroms and gang assaults) and other forms of persecution.

            Besides, all this ignores the fact that Yes!’s comment was never racially self-hateful in the first place. It was simply hyperbolic criticism toward fellow members of a shared in-group, and if anything, it could actually be characterized as xenophobic since he was, indeed, talking about a foreign country, albeit the dynamics of classic racism were obviously not involved.

            Being mindful of context is not racist. It’s just common sense that a Chinese Singaporean who takes pride in Chinese Singaporean society and looks down on PRC citizens is not racist. In a vacuum devoid of context, would his remark technically be considered literally racist? Yes. But life is not a vacuum devoid of context.

          • Alex Dương

            You have different standards for different races. I don’t. I have the same standard for everyone: does the person demonstrate understanding? It may very well be the case that in these types of issues, people of a certain race as a whole are more likely to meet the standard than others. Not denying that. But the bar is set at the same height regardless of race.

            I don’t give Yes! any extra benefit of the doubt that I wouldn’t also give to Probotector or Wodowsan, both of whom I have had disagreements with in the past as well. I treat all of them equally. Nonetheless, I now understand why you were so eager to give Yes! a free pass for his remarks. You call it “context”; I call it misguided. So be it.

          • I have the same standard for every race: I don’t give a damn if they’re hating on themselves. Low self-esteem is not the biggest threat in the world. There is a world of difference between different groups demonizing each other and possibly setting the stage for violence and/or persecution, vs exaggeratedly lamenting their own shortcomings, especially in private company.

            I don’t give Yes! any extra benefit of the doubt that I wouldn’t also give to Probotector or Wodowsan. If I saw Probotector or Wodowsan unreasonably hating on white people, I would think it odd but not care to waste my time correcting them. And if I ever see Yes! unreasonably hating on Indians or Malays, then you can finally get that “Matt schools Yes!” treat you’ve been salivating over.

          • Alex Dương

            I have the same standard for every race: I don’t give a damn if they’re hating on themselves.

            No, you don’t, because that isn’t the full extent of your standard. You said, quote,

            There is a world of difference between the above situations (in which case the speaker knows that it doesn’t literally apply to everyone, because that would include himself, which would be absurd since he’s the one making the criticism in the first place) and an “outside group” member generalizing another “outside group”, in which case there is a far greater potential for unqualified generalization, since the speaker himself does not serve as a reminder of the existence of exceptions to the rule.

            The examples you gave made it clear that you have a different standard for different races: when it’s an “in group” person talking about his “in group,” you give a substantial benefit of the doubt and let many things slide; but when it’s an “outgroup” talking about what is from his perspective an “outgroup,” you’re ready to pounce on the slightest thing.

            Obviously, you feel very strongly that this is the right thing to do, so I’m not changing your mind. Suffice to say that we disagree with each other on this.

          • It’s not that complicated. I simply don’t care if someone’s hating on “his own kind” because there’s minimal danger of it escalating to violence or persecution. White nationalist skinheads are a danger; self-hating minorities are not.

            If I had all the time in the world, then yes, I would nitpick every misstatement I encounter, regardless of circumstance or context. But I don’t have all the time in the world, so I stick to the high-risk situations (like unrelated groups of people hating on each other).

            Also, it’s quite easy to take the moral high ground when, regardless of who you’re debating with, it always results in the same––you defending your own race/ethnicity/nationality. You note that you hold Yes! to the same standard as other non-Chinese (typically white) posters, but that’s hardly a genuine attempt at opposing racism when in both cases, you’re simply defending the Chinese or Asian “cause”. That’s not the same as, say, defending blacks when a troll like “Barack Obama” starts spewing all sorts of anti-black propaganda. When I first started posting on this website and its first sister site, it typically involved defending the general Japanese populace from viciously anti-Japanese Chinese and Korean nationalists. They all assumed that I must be Japanese, as surely there could be no other motive for me to stick up for the Japanese (not the right-wingers, but the population in general) unless I myself was Japanese. I’m sure you’ll think I’m racist for thinking this, but in my opinion, defending another group of people is more noble than merely defending your own. It’s the difference between altruism and self-interest. But I digress.

          • Alex Dương

            If you believe that it’s more noble to defend another group than “your own,” I don’t agree, but I won’t argue against it either. What I will argue about is the idea that authorship matters more than content; that is, you would view the same set of words differently depending on who (you believe) wrote it.

            Authorship is not completely irrelevant. It does matter, but in my opinion, I don’t think it matters as much as content. How valid are the arguments presented? Do they make sense? Is there an obvious hole in the argument?

            I think the problem with your approach is that when you let authorship take priority over content, you no longer fairly read what’s written. You were attributing many positive remarks to Yes! that he himself never made; for example, you consistently referred to him as a “democracy supporter.” Yet, in that “radical Hong Kong activists” article from earlier this year, Yes! openly supported them and their “preference” for the return of British rule and criticized me for saying that these activists should have been advocating self-rule rather than foreign rule. How is that “supporting democracy”?

            In that same discussion, you joined him and criticized me for being tribal. You thought my reference to “self-rule” meant being ruled by Beijing; no, it was obvious that I meant Hongkongers should be choosing which Hongkongers they want to be their leaders and representatives. You gave me NO benefit of the doubt, and it was in that discussion you asked me whether I thought Obama isn’t a real American because he’s half-black.

            This is what I’m talking about when I say your “style” prevents you from reading comments fairly. You attribute positive remarks that were never said to people whose comments you read lightly, and you attribute negative remarks that were never said to people whose comments you read harshly.

          • Kai

            I’m going to agree with Alex on this one.

            Let’s take a look:

            China will never become a democracy. It’s in the Chinese genes, having been under autocracies or dictators since 5000 years ago.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/hong-kong-activists-surround-last-british-governor-reactions.html#comment-1297562895

            It’s in Chinese/Han genes. Look up your history books. How many kingdoms have come and gone?

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/hong-kongers-raise-british-flag-tell-mainlanders-to-get-lost.html#comment-1333504676

            Dream on. China will never be “at the front”. It’s not in Chinese DNA. Chinese are only good followers.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/nyt-china-hindering-mh370-search-chinese-netizen-reactions.html#comment-1344999060

            Hans always like to believe that they are the greatest people “under Heaven”. That’s in their DNA. […] But China’s intrinsic culture and society as a whole do not have the necessary eco-system to put it in front of other civilisations, and never will.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/nyt-china-hindering-mh370-search-chinese-netizen-reactions.html#comment-1345110375

            You can make an argument for hyperbole, because he did eventually hedge.

            When Alex confronted him, this was his flippant response:

            I’m just telling it like it is. If that makes me “look like a racist retard” so be it. Hope it doesn’t bother you. Suffice to say I know enough about the Chinese because I live among them, and my ancestors are Chinese.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/nyt-china-hindering-mh370-search-chinese-netizen-reactions.html#comment-1345143592

            If you want to know where the “self-hate” accusation has basis, it’s the sum total of these comments by Yes! (and I think his penchant for upvoting comments making grossly unfair negative generalizations about mainland Chinese).

            He argues that his remarks reflect what he knows about the Chinese because he lives among them and his ancestors are Chinese. On one hand, he justifies his observations, judgements, and contempt of modern mainland Chinese people by appealing to his identity as “one of them”, and on the other hand separates himself and his ancestors as Singaporean who grew up under a different system and thus have different values. There are ways to argue how both of these things reconcile just fine, but you have to acknowledge there’s some intellectual dishonesty (or cognitive dissonance?) in this behavior.

            You have to put yourself in Alex’s shoes beholding Yes! comments as they came out. Be careful of using Yes!’s later comments to judge how Alex should’ve initially reacted to Yes!

            There’s more.

            Yes!’s next comment, I think, provides clarity on his position relative to what Alex was feeling from his past comments:

            I’m not a self-hating Chinese. I just KNOW the difference between the mainland Chinese and the other Chinese who grow up in more advanced societies. That’s how I am able to see the differences. And don’t you come attacking me personally. If you can’t put up a decent point to debate my post about standard of governance, perhaps you can do yourself a favour and not engage my posts anymore. Just because I’m Chinese doesn’t mean I have to be blind to the deficiencies of mainland China society.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/nyt-china-hindering-mh370-search-chinese-netizen-reactions.html#comment-1345163513

            Yes! is more careful with stating his position here, again, after being confronted by Alex over his past comments. The problem here is that he opens himself up to other criticisms as well. He straw man’s Alex as attacking him personally (as if Alex was doing so without proper context and sufficient premise) and not putting up a decent point to debate his post about standard of governance. Alex wasn’t even debating him about standards of governance. Alex never suggests, much less argues, that Chinese people have to be blind to the deficiencies of mainland society. Straw man.

            I think you’ve been confronted with such straw man arguments before and have recognized them for what they are. You’ve also demonstrated that you don’t take that bullshit lying down either. So I think you should give Alex a bit more credit here in his objections to Yes!.

            I also hope you’ll consider how Yes! may have actually successfully poisoned the well given how you’ve approached Alex’s original accusation of self-hate.

            Moreover, Alex accusing self-hate beause of Yes!’s comments is no more presumptive than Yes!’s presumption of Alex being PRC Chinese simply for taking issue with his earlier comments that can easily be interpreted as bigoted, if not racist.

            I think Alex’s reactions and arguments are reasonable in proper context. The conversation unfolded in a specific way and I don’t think Yes! did a good job of clarifying and making himself blameless.

            Next.

            You know what’s really irksome about Yes?

            When an overseas Chinese criticises mainland Chinese, the mainlander will condemn the overseas guy for being a “traitor”, or some sort of “banana” (yellow on the outside and white on the inside). Mainlanders expect and demand that if you’re ethnic Chinese, regardless of your nationality/citizenship, you have to agree with them or stand by them even when they’re wrong – no, ESPECIALLY when they’re wrong. That has been my personal experience.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/videos/mainland-girl-urinates-on-street-in-hong-kong-chinese-reactions.html#comment-1354779609

            He’s rightfully upset that many mainland Chinese condemn overseas Chinese as “traitors” or “bananas” over criticism of mainland Chinese. Yet when someone criticizes him for making gross generalizations to arguably racist bullshit, he accuses them of being “PRC Chinese”. Surely you see the double-standard hypocrisy in that, right?

            Okay, let’s get back to your comment.

            I sweat nothing over people talking shit about their own in-groups.

            Except it’s clear that Yes! does not see mainland Chinese as his “in-group”, except when (like above), he exploits it as justification for his remarks. I also highly doubt you wouldn’t sweat all shit talked about people ostensibly criticizing their “in-group”. I could be mistaken but didn’t you take issue with Dr. Sun, whom you think to be a white British guy, for his gross generalizations of white ESL teachers recently? Or was that someone else?

            Either way, my point should still stand. There’s self-deprecation and humility as well as self-reflection and secure self-criticism, but there’s also a point when generalizations go too far and become indefensible. This often comes up among white people when white people bemoan “white” racism. Depending on the specifics of the instance, the objections are often justified and valid. Sometimes someone IS going too far in what they say.

            Yes! has repeatedly done this (go too far).

            One time, a total Israel-hating lunatic I was arguing with made it apparent that he is in fact himself Jewish. I immediately stopped being concerned about his hatred because I realized that no matter how rabidly and viciously he hates Israel and its supporters, he would never overstep and take his anger out on all Jews, which is something that many non-Jewish anti-Zionists do.

            Was this guy repeatedly making comments about Israeli genetics and then accusing those who object to such comments as being “Israelis”?

            But I know not to take Yes!’s comment seriously because it’s so obvious that he doesn’t actually think he’s genetically predisposed to the problems that he thinks plague PRC citizens but not Singaporean Chinese.

            It’s obvious he doesn’t think he’s genetically predisposed to the problems that plague PRC citizens but not Singaporean Chinese, but part of the problem itself is that he represents these problems as “genetic”. As long as he does, Alex is right in pointing out how logic dictates that he shares the same genes and would also be afflicted, so his contempt for these genetic problems would therefore be “self-hate”.

            If you want to argue that Yes! doesn’t really mean “genetic”, that’s fine. He eventually argued as much even if he obstinately insists on being allowed to be careless with his words lest anyone who objects is “PRC Chinese”. But surely you follow the logic argument that Alex is making, right? Surely you recognize what gave rise to Alex’s objection in the first place, right?

            I don’t think you’re being fair to Alex here and you’re being wayyyyyy too forgiving of Yes! when I’ve seen you take down others for the same shit he pulls.

          • You’ve made many fair points. I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason for the gulf between our views is that Yes! was quite frankly trolling when he made those “genetics” comments, and no amount of logic or reason can reconcile those original comments with his subsequent “clarifying” comments”. His source material that we are discussing is itself contradictory, and the gulf has manifested based on how we chose (past tense) to deal with that contradiction. I chose (past tense) to ignore his inaner initial remarks in acknowledgement of the more substantive posts he made later, whereas Alex decided to not let him off the hook until he completely recanted his earlier immature remarks, which he never did (as most people on the Internet never do).

            The main reason why I interjected instead of just letting Alex hold Yes!’s feet to the fire, however, is because I simply do not believe Yes! hates himself. As you noted, it’s clear that Yes! does not see mainland Chinese as his “in-group”. Obviously, he’s part of their “genetic in-group” whether he thinks so or not (and it’s evident he is aware of that basic scientific fact), but my overall understanding of the situation is that Yes! is merely exhibiting standard classism (i.e., class discrimination). To him, PRC citizens are in a lower class, and Singaporean Chinese are in a higher class. This makes far more sense to me than accusing a Singaporean chauvinist of being “self-hating”, which is a phrase I think is overused and often employed by those with insecurity issues of their own.

          • Alex Dương

            I agree with you that he is expressing classism and chauvinism, but I maintain my belief that at the time, he unnecessarily conflated his classism / chauvinism with racism by venturing into the realm of genetics.

          • Kai

            I chose (past tense) to ignore his inaner initial remarks in acknowledgement of the more substantive posts he made later, whereas Alex decided to not let him off the hook until he completely recanted his earlier immature remarks, which he never did (as most people on the Internet never do).

            You’ve made what I think to be a reasonably fair representation of the situation. It isn’t just Alex either, because it is also me now (or even possibly more me than Alex now).

            You think his past comments are “trolling”, but I don’t think it is or that it is just his “initial” comments. Trolling for one is inherently dishonest and thus bannable, but prejudice is not, and I’m pretty certain he’s genuine in his prejudices. We don’t ban bias and prejudice; we allow them to be criticized. So long as he remains arguably objectionable, I may object to his comments.

            Two, I understand you’re ignoring his “initial” “trolling” comments for what you think are his more “subsequent” “clarifying” comments. The reason I don’t is because he still makes the former type of comments, happily upvotes similar, and dog-pile those who object to it.

            Never ever under-estimate the cunning of the Chinese mainlander especially when they share a common aim such as making money off someone else; I’d say this trait of theirs is unmatched by any westerner from a first world country.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/videos/mcdonalds-kfc-meat-supplier-exposed-reusing-expired-meat.html#comment-1497499059

            For every one reported pooping on flights, trains and buses, there are probably 1000 more unreported.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/chinese-parents-have-child-poop-on-airplane-seat-reactions.html#comment-1501700117

            To love humans or dogs? Answer is pretty simple: love humans first, then dogs. But if the types of humans you meet mostly are obnoxious and disgusting, like most of the mainlanders, it’s no wonder people love dogs more.

            http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/yulin-dog-meat-festival-controversy-and-conflict-escalates.html#comment-1452222938

            I can’t criticize other people for similar grossly unfair generalizations and expressions of prejudice and bigotry but not criticize him. I don’t even criticize every instance because I more often just ignore him now.

            I hope you understand that this isn’t as simple as me refusing to forgive him moments of putting his foot in his mouth, of indulging in tasteless hyperbole, of being emotional, whatever. This is him consistently. repeatedly, and unapologetically reinforcing a persona of objectionable prejudice and questionable intellect.

            If he had made stupid, even “trollish”, comments in the past but has regretted them and moved onto being a more mature, sophisticated commenter whom I simply don’t agree with on various things, that’d be one thing and there are other cS commenters who have such a history. But that isn’t this thing and he isn’t like those cS commenters.

            He hasn’t done anything to demonstrate he deserves the benefit of the doubt and instead consistently does things to make it even harder to give him the benefit of the doubt.

            I simply do not believe Yes! hates himself.

            I don’t think he hates himself either, but that’s not really the meat of Alex’s original self-hate accusation anyway. Alex pointed out the logical inconsistency in Yes!’s comments and self-representation.

            (and it’s evident he is aware of that basic scientific fact)

            …which makes one question why he’s so eager and insistent on using “genetics/DNA” in his speech. Why insist and double-down, repeatedly as he has done here in this discussion, on the indefensible? How does this behavior encourage giving him the benefit of the doubt, right?

            my overall understanding of the situation is that Yes! is merely exhibiting standard classism (i.e., class discrimination). To him, PRC citizens are in a lower class, and Singaporean Chinese are in a higher class. This makes far more sense to me than accusing a Singaporean chauvinist of being “self-hating”,

            I can nod my head to Yes! “exhibiting standard classism”.

            I’m now more certain that our disagreement is based on my believe that Alex’s accusation of “self-hate” is an internally logically consistent accusation premised upon Yes!’s own comments and self-representations. I’m not agreeing with Alex here because I think Yes! literally hates himself. I’m agreeing with him because I think Alex made a good point that Yes! either doesn’t understand or obstinately refuses to understand in order to avoid conceding to Alex’s point. Granted, many people on the internet don’t like to concede anyway, and that’s their loss. It’s Yes!’s loss too.

            which is a phrase I think is overused and often employed by those with insecurity issues of their own.

            I empathize with what you’re alluding to here, but I don’t think Alex and his application of it fits that bill. He responded reasonably to Yes!’s comments, and Yes! dug that hole for himself. Alex pointed it out, and Yes! kept on digging.

    • JabroniZamboni

      A Chinese person can not call anyone lazy, sorry. Not with an actual nap-time in their daily routine. If you turn off an escalator, the average Chinese person will sleep there.

      The future you speak about is very distant. Many many many many professionals in this country are supremely unqualified to work abroad.

      • Yes!

        “”A Chinese person can not call anyone lazy, sorry. Not with an actual nap-time in their daily routine. If you turn off an escalator, the Chinese person will sleep there.””

        LOL. That’s an old caricature of the Chinese. But not all of them are like that. A respected former politician in my country used to say the same of Mexicans and those with similar culture. Anyway, the number of railway lines and new city centres sprouting up all over China in record time is evidence of the new Chinese worker.

        “”The future you speak about is very distant. Many many many many professionals in this country are supremely unqualified to work abroad.””

        Here’s the scenario of what’s actually happening right now:
        Chinese company invests US$30m in my country. This includes bringing in their whole gang of “managers and executives”. Our govt says, they must be qualified for their jobs. Sure, no problem. They submit testimonials, degrees and exam results from Chinese universities. So they get in to work as “managers and executives”. The reality is this: they may qualify to work as “managers and executives” back in Xiamen or Chengdu, but they absolutely do not have the managerial ability or competence of the same level as, say, a management executive from Western Digital or Toshiba or – to name a local company – Capitaland. So what you said is true, but they’re here. Oh, and I have to mention this as well – if anyone would take the time and effort to investigate their qualifications, 5 out of 10 are fakes. Why so? Many of these Chinese companies are putting their money into foreign countries to escape the reach of the CPC, and many of their “managers and executives” are their relatives and family members.

        • JabroniZamboni

          You said, “you’re gonna have to get used to an uncultured unsophisticated and uncivilised people ordering you around at your workplace in the not-too-distant future”.

          A shell company hell bent on embezzlement through real estate prospecting, will hardly order anyone other than the accountant around. Are jews white?

          China is an economic juggernaut, I have no doubts about this, however they are masters at inefficiency. If this country was efficient, it would be scary for the west. Inefficiency seems almost bred into the masses. From the top to the bottom.

          Until that is rectified, I believe that your scenario is implausible. They will hire qualified people from the countries they do business in, simply to be able to be more profitable. The Chinese love the money more than China. They have no loyalty to it. They will hire whomever makes them more.

          • Dr Sun

            no many are from north Africa, not white at all

          • JabroniZamboni

            Personally, 100% of my email bill goes to Nigeria. They sent me an email raising the price this month.

          • Dr Sun

            can I ask firstly why 100% of your internet bill goes to Nigeria? what does this have to do with Jews and what is a internet bill ?

          • JabroniZamboni

            I don’t know, some dude from Abuja emailed me one day, telling me that a long lost uncle had died. If I paid 200 000$ usd i could unlock his fortunes.

            I didn’t have the money, so they kindly offered to have me pay in installments on my email bill.

            By the time I am 64, I will be rich and inherit this vast fortune. Jews have money. It all sort of ties in.

          • Dr Sun

            LOL :)

          • Yes!

            That is when they’ve gone past that “shell company” stage and gone into full scale operations, which won’t be long from now. With the slowing property business in China, many developers are bringing their mega billions into Australia, Malaysia, UK, USA, Singapore, etc. One “shell company” from China is now a publicly-listed real estate developer entity on our stock exchange. You know our listing requirements are pretty strict. In keeping with regulations, they have a staff of both Chinese mainlanders and locals. You might want to ask the locals how they get ordered around by the mainlanders. Somebody should write a book on “Clash of Working Cultures”.

          • JabroniZamboni

            From a Canadian standpoint (can’t speak for the rest of the world), the government finally seems to be lashing back at the damage caused by these companies.

            People are wise to the Chinese game now. These companies will still exist, and perhaps even succeed; the fact remains that they will hardly be the benchmark, nor be the companies that drive foreign economies outside of Africa.

  • Deft

    Nah, in Victorian times Britain and her Empire was drugged up to the gills. They call the period from the second half of the 19th Century to the beginning of WWI the ‘lost years’ because of the perfectly legal dosing going on. Opiates, Coca derivatives, Cannabis, you name it and it was being prescribed by your Doctor for any common ailment. Good times!

  • ikoihil

    I wonder what the type/quantity was?

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