A woman drowned, trapped alone in her car, after she accidentally reversed off a ferry and fell into Shanghai’s Huangpu River on January 30th. Her husband and 18-year-old son were not in the car at the time and were forced to watch from the boat as workers and bystanders stopped them from jumping into the water.
Video also on Tudou.
Here are some news reports on Eastday and SMG (both Chinese).
Many Chinese netizens wondered why the news report did not mention the police/rescue boat that was clearly next to the sinking car, as seen in the video, but apparently did not do anything.
Comments from KDS:
zjzy1314:
Why not go to the back and open the door?
The back had not been submerged, it could have been opened.
The driver was scared stiffthus stuck inside waiting to die.
gali_429:
The boat next to it, what the heck is it doing…
ozawa:
Isn’t there a boat next to it
hanguowang:
Wasn’t the marine police boat just right there? Why didn’t they use a rope to stall it?
byron_r:
The rescue effort was a complete mess.
hide217:
What the hell were the marine police doing??? So close, my god!
tfwuliwuzuo;
CN! Are the people on the boat to the right watching a show!? Her husband is also an idiot. In this kind of situation, even if there were a hundred people holding me, I would at least have struggled a little. Just standing there watching, he was too calm.
benty:
Not a single rescue effort, such a failure.
Look at when the American plane crash landed in the river and how fast the rescue was.
zjzy1314:
Exactly, if was in Harmonious Country [China], the plane would eventually sink and everyone would drown.
CameronDoo:
I have smashed the window of a VW Santana with my bare hands before.
In this kind of situation, with it being one’s own wife, one should have even more adrenaline…
carl_1127:
On television, they said the pier workers were holding back the father and son, and the boat in the video should be the rescuers. However, they did not go rescue because they were afraid of their own danger, because when a 1.4 ton car sinks, it will suck nearby things down with it, so maybe this is the reason why the people nearby did not go down to rescue. But those rescuers were also too late, it was simply like watching a show [by then].
A_VIKING:
Watching the video made me very angry! TMD, for there to be casualties even in this kind of situation is simply unacceptable. The patrol boat by the side was at most only 20 meters away, and according to the video, the entire incident lasted at least 1 minute and 25 seconds (in reality, it was longer), which was completely enough for a rescue!
I pay my respects to the woman who died an unjust death!
Strongly request investigating the incompetent rescuers’ responsibility!
joceee:
After watching, I was first angry, then I felt like there was nothing that could be done…life is truly fragile, especially in China.
jojohsu:
Sigh, if I were present, I probably would have rushed in with a life preserver around me.
Otherwise, I might see this scene every time I close my eyes for the rest of my life.
tfwuliwuzuo:
If foreigners see this video, our harmonious country will be attacked/slandered yet again.
gaomingnet:
I imagine she was knocked unconscious, the car increasing speed backwards, and her head hitting the steering wheel, or maybe she was stuck by the airbag?
maomaoch:
Her man does not love this woman, or at least it is not the “willing to sacrifice one’s life” kind of love, how sad.
lilylilyli05:
We cannot completely blame the nearby rescue boat. Last year, this place also had something similar happen. A mother with three children fell into the river. They too were not rescued. There’s a limit to people’s reactions during critical moments, and everything else is just what the bystanders say. Without experiencing it oneself, one has no way of appreciating the situation at the time. I also am not very clear about the details of the situation. Let us just pay our respects to the deceased, and hope that she can rest in peace.
hotdogps:
Bastards! Such bastards! Fuck!
zytzyt:
You guys have hypothesized this much, yet I bet even if you broke the window, it would not be certain that she could get out. Actually, just looking at how women ride bicycles says it all.
PS: When men riding bicycles suddenly encounter people, they basically brake and put their feet down to stop.
Women yell and shake the handles, before finally falling on the ground.Of course, I still need to despise a bit that nearby rescue boat for just watching the show.
One KDS member also linked to this video on how to get out of a sinking car:
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- 4 Girls Fall To Death To Escape Dorm Fire
- Mother Run Over By Cement Truck In Fuzhou
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…That is just messed up. The boat is clearly there & It didn’t do anything? At least learn from the “Miracle of the Hudson” where tons of help appeared & rescued everyone in speedy time. Maybe I don’t know anything and the man on the boat was trying to help by waving his hands. I’m going to look for some survival tips in this situation to make me feel better.
EVeryone is stupid and cowardly.
1. The woman is insanely dumb. How do you reverse off a barge?? How do you NOT realize that you just reversed off a barge?? Get the fuck outta the car!!!
2. The ferry attendant is liable for extreme negligence. How is it possible for some little wussy car to back itself off of your BARGE!!!!!!
3. The Son and Husband are ridiculously neutered. Fucking Sheeple!
4. The people that held them back should be put in jail.
5. The harbour police boat personnel need firing!!!! WTF is their role?
My question is this. Since we’ve established that there are some real Chinese men alive (there are… I know a few)…the next logical question in light of such ridiculous occurences would be; what percentage??
Where is the decisive action and intestinal fortitude that defines the male gender in all mammals!??! Doesn’t even have to be your mother, just help!!!
I blame the liability system that discourages trying to help lest you be unsuccessful.
It is very difficult to watch this knowing someone is inside the car and no one came to her rescue, if I was the husband, I won’t have a drowned wife, let me tell you that much! Well, maybe the husband didn’t know how to swim. Anyhow, I’m sure there got to be someone that was watching know how to swim, how could they just stood there and watch and not do anything? Where are the heroes?
I guess that is the difference between eastern and western culture. Very sad!
This is outrageous.
But Jordan you are bringing a very good point, based on my direct entourage in China, very few people actually know how to swim, it’s not so common as it is in the West. My wife included. So it’s not totally unreasonable to think that maybe sadly, nobody at the scene was feeling up to the task to jump into the muddy water to rescue her. Very sad, but quite possible.
But I can tell you one thing, anybody trying to restrain me in such circumstances, trying to save my own wife, would have ended up at the very bottom of the river himself.
And this video about how to escape from a sinking Car was very instructive.
A lot of people don’t seem to realize that you cannot open the door of a sinking car — the pressure differential seals the door closed until the pressure is equalized. The pressure is equalized slightly after the car is totally filled with water. You might be able to roll down a window and escape through that, but I can’t name a single car that lets you roll down the windows from the outside.
So even if the son and husband had been able to jump in, they probably still couldn’t save her life. Poor woman.
there is the major difference between NEW YORKERS and SHANGHAIERS
at the hudson crash there where 4 boats helping within 7 mintues.
shanghai?? one boat and one lazy dude thinking… um.. thats not my duty.
If you broke the window the pressure differential would guarantee you get pulled in, even worse if the driver was unconscious. A lot of posters visualizing themselves as heroes here but hindsight doesn’t reflect reality. It’s obvious the fault lies with the rescue operation.
Judging by the stance of the dude on the Police boat, I would not be surprised at all if he was not even aware that there was somebody inside the car.
He might have just witnessed a freaked out guy watching is expensive car sink.
That’s just a theory of course. But after many years in China, it looks to me like a typical case of confusion and organizational chaos.
If the Policeman was indeed aware of the situation, then I hope he fries in Hell for eternity, and everybody that did not try to save her (if they could).
If your car is ever sinking like this, the first thing you should do is stay calm. I know, its easy to say and much harder to do but you can’t do anything if panic takes over.
Secondly, no doors will open. Don’t try to open them. You will waste what little time you have.
You should go to the back seat of the car because it is the side that will sink last and break a window. Then exit quickly through the broken window.
Why did the ferry apparently have NO REAR SAFETY BARRIER or gate?
If the car is floating on the surface with all the windows closed, the best way for the rescuer to enter is through a window. Rear window entry probably offers the best opportunity. A hammer or center punch can be used to break tempered glass.
Rescuers trying to enter the vehicle through open windows must be aware of the suction through the windows while the car is filling as the windows disappear below the surface.
In addition to the above recommendations which were developed as a result of the Michigan study, the following is information that we advocate to the public as well as our Water Rescue Technician students:
It only takes approximately 6 inches of water to float a small vehicle enough that the driver will lose total control. Anytime high water signage is posted, these signs need to be heeded by the public and avoided whenever possible. Larger size vehicles will float in as little as 2 feet of water.
Before a vehicle is driven over ice, there should be at least 7 1/2 to 8 inches of solid ice in order to support a small car. However, even with 7 1/2 to 8 inches, pressure ridges can fracture and weaken ice. Schools of milling fish can also send warmer bottom water toward the surface, which will contribute to weak ice. Other factors include currents beneath the ice, pipes running from houses, etc.
During a moving water incident (i.e. flash floods), once the car begins to float, as soon as two wheels off the road surface, the driver will lose all control over the vehicle.
It has been mentioned on Tudou that the car was in the water for 18 minutes before sinking. There must have been hundreds of people watching by then, not one of them grabbed a life ring, vest or boat.
Cowardice! case closed.
How do you know no one grabbed a life vest and does the Tudou video contain the whole event? Post a link to the vid.
More viral marketing from VW …
The rear door was well above water for over a minute. She could have climbed to the rear and easily opened either rear door.
lol all the chinese people are comparing this to the “miracle on the hudson” (the plane crash) and how wuick the response was but i would like to point out that during katrina bushes cunt ass stood there playing golf for a fucking week while thousands of people drowned without getting any help from the national government but when the earthquake happened the chinese government responded within hours of the quake helping out people and providing relief immediatly, when i was in china visiting family this summer seeing images of all the people helping just made me madder at bush lol im so glad Obama;s the president now
The difference between the Hudson and Katrina is one of being prepared. The government (and the Katrina victims) were ill-prepared due to many different things (poor government response, their own negligence, etc.). The people on the Hudson were well-prepared (the man who landed it was quite possibly one of the best-prepared pilots for a scenario like that, there were many people nearby who managed to organize a rescue).
If you don’t want to end up like this, prepare for disasters. Buy a fire extinguisher and a first-aid kit and know how to use them. If you live near water, have life vests and life preservers (and know how to swim).
Recently, I had to do first aid on my own grandmother. She fell and was bleeding to death. But I was able to control the bleeding and to get 911 quickly enough that she will make a full recovery. Had I panicked or been unprepared, we would have had a funeral the other day.
So you pick. Do you want to be prepared, or do you want to be a victim? Because you CAN do something about it. And the feeling of powerlessness if you fail is terrible.
@Nathan
Yeah, Obama-do-nothing while people freeze to death in Kentucky.
I agree with Joe #2. The lesson we can learn from this incident (and many others like earthquake and plane crashing) is ALWAYS BE PREPARED. Things like drowned in vehicles are not happening daily as car accidents but people should try to ‘brain experiment’ what to do in such situations at least once in life. Relevant government departments must be well trained and preplanned, and have the ability to respond quickly when tragedies happen. Successful survival stories deserve more praise and publicity than heroic actions.
Ditto for financial tragedies, but 未雨绸缪 is not so obvious for everyone.
“If foreigners see this video, our harmonious country will be attacked/slandered yet again.”
What is the Chinese solution to this? Not to fix the problem or make people aware of the danger!!! [thats too much hard work]
The solution is try to hide the video so they dont lose face!!
It has been shown on a Top Gear test that you can escape from a car in water when the car is still partially out of the water.
A sad state of affairs here when no one comes to the rescue of a person in trouble, but then this is China and nothing much surprises me here anymore.
The difference between hudson river and this one:
a fucking 747 landed in the hudson river, not a single car.
a) husband can go hug car or something?
b) what equipement on the police boat can help the woman ?
@tom
You can wash your dirty laundry without hanging them in the public first.
I wonder how much of these “internet heroes” would even help a granny off a bus.
Unbelievable…
Looks like some Chinese (not all, there are of course decent people among them) just want to hide the whole affair and save their all important face, complain about Obama etc. Too late, its spreading all over the internet.
The only way to save face in these situations, is start caring for each other’s safety so it doesn’t happen in the first place. The fact is, someone died in front of a crowd and not one person even attempted to rescue her.
People living under a totalitarian regime are manipulated in ways they are not even aware of. Those with courage and civic engagement are held back by the mob. The poor woman died because of it. I have left China because of it.
Hate to say… this may all be a NWO plot to de-sensistize you mofokin sheeple from the real shit that’s coming down.
Same shit happened in Cali a few weeks back…
Am I missing something here? The vid was a minute long but a previous poster said it took 18 minutes for the car to sink. How does anyone know no one tried to help in that 18 minutes?
@ Billy Joel: one assumes that a police boat would have a variety of types of equipment to help in this situation. If a POLICE BOAT is not equipped to help STOP SHIT FROM SINKING, well then, we clearly have a problem. If nothing else, they certainly have ropes and something hard enough to break glass on board a police boat, they could go over and attempt to rescue the woman or at least last the car to their boat so it stays afloat for longer.
You can say what you will about “internet heroes” but the fact remains, a large group of people watched this woman die without, it appears, even attempting to help. Cynicism is fun, but when it’s your wife in the car and no one, not even the police, even TRY to help her, are you still going to be on here talking about “internet heroes”?
This whole event is sickening. What the hell are the police doing?
Is there a full video of this somewhere? I see a lot of people making comments that no one helped but all I’ve seen is the 2 min vid.
The result of poor Chinese driving skills. No surprise at all
Her husband had better pray to I.T. God that he didn’t marry her in a Buddhist Temple. She just may torment his mind and body in the next life.
Protector lousy at his job!
The couple should have died together. He in fact tried. Someone needed to stay alive for their son.
I wish them both a happy ending and beginning. ;
I wonder if he would save his mistress in the same situation?
Any chance of having the throwing of a shoe at Wen Jiaboa at Cambridge University incident on this site Fauna?
Maybe her husband should hook up with kitten killer. Filthy bastard.
@Veer Left
The people that can actually dare to make decisions are making money and are not on a ferry.
The rest is watching wuxia series and movies…very similar of Indians watching movies that portray luxury and far travels and Americans are watching movies about their heroic efforts in the Vietnam war.
:-)
Hmm…sorry for the bad grammar.
Scrap the “can” before “actually”
and of course it is “similar to”
and add “that” between “Americans” and “are”
and the cowards just sit at home and blog?
and hunt for their next victim/girlfriend
unbelievable (i’m talking about the KDS comments and the woman driving). people here are as stupid as the night is black. natural selection.
It would be nice to know what was the reason she was reversing?
what kinda barge the woman was on when she reversed her car. Wasn’t there any signs or transport guards out there warning people?
I thought barges are frigging big things. If she just reverse into the water, means she’s parked very close to the edge.
It is a real tragedy to see accidents like this.
Probably serves as a good lesson to people.
Guys, using this one example to highlight some fundamental “difference” between “Western” and “Eastern” culture going a bit far. There are plenty of examples of heroism and cowardice everywhere. Just from the Sichuan earthquake alone we had heart-rending stories of heroes (Brothers carrying sisters for miles? Mothers and teachers sheltering the children?) and cowards (Fan Pao Pao anyone?). I think it is a little sad that some people are trying to use one data point to elevate this to the level of racial/cultural “differences.’
That said, I’m far more perturbed by that police boat seemingly doing nothing than I am about civilians not being good Samaritans jumping into the cold waters to do something they’ve never contemplated doing. It’s definitely aggravating when the people, the “professionals,” you expect to have the answers and solutions don’t, or otherwise fail you, especially if you’re the father or son in this situation. If nothing else, they didn’t do a good job of TRYING, or at least they didn’t do a good job of LOOKING like they were trying. Still, it’s hard for us to know from this video alone whether they have a protocol for these things, and whether or not they were following it but just couldn’t do much.
I do find it a bit amusing for the conspiracy theorists in us all to wonder why the news reports did not mention the police boat idling on the side. Is it because the journalist was instructed not to mention it for fear of giving the public a bad impression of the police or was it simply an innocuous decision that it wasn’t actually important to report?
@ Alex:
LoL, that’s some dark humor there.
@ Tom:
I have a feeling the “oh noes, foreigners are going to say bad things about us” comment was probably said tongue-in-cheek.
@ colin & The Stig:
LoL, Top Gear. Love that show.
No foreigner would attakc/slander your harmonious society. They would however say it is unacceptable that the marine police and the husband did nothing to help the woman and watched her die. I see this all the time in road accidents, people just stand and watch people die in the street instead of helping.
“People living under a totalitarian regime are manipulated in ways they are not even aware of. Those with courage and civic engagement are held back by the mob. The poor woman died because of it. I have left China because of it.”
You have never been in a Car accident have you ? The glorious people of the “free countries” strangely, react the same way.
LoL @ g-man. Thanks, that’s exactly correct.
Interestingly enough, my first car was a b5 Passat. Loved her, and she saved my life too.
The surrounding water pressure means you can’t open the doors easily. Opening the windows also lets water in, which impedes getting out. I hope she wasn’t waiting for help. For sure there was enough time for people to have done something, especially that nearby boat.
The reason so few helped is called the “bystander effect” and yes, people who are unprepared (whether Chinese, American or whatever), do in fact stand around like clueless morons. I know. I’ve lived through more emergencies than I care to think about. I’m too often the only one who is thinking properly and all the responsibility falls to me.
In general, people will do something stupid during emergencies unless they’ve had some kind of training or experience (or both). So you actually have to single people out if you want their help. If you say “someone call 911!” everyone will think that “someone” means “someone other than me” and no one will actually do it. You have to single someone out and tell them what to do or most people around you will be useless. And, of course, if you’re going to give orders you have to know what the hell you’re doing as well. But in order to do any of that, you have to be the one who is calm, rather than one of the people who are frightened, curious, timid or crying. Most people shut down during emergencies, but if you’re one of us that doesn’t and you have some idea what you’re doing, you just start ordering people around and organizing them.
As for this comment:
> b) what equipement on the police boat can help the woman ?
I don’t know what they carry, but they should have an axe, baton or something else capable of breaking windows as well as a life vest. You’re trying to save the person, not the car. In an emergency, human life ALWAYS takes priority over property. You’re probably right that they couldn’t save the car. But they shouldn’t even be trying to save that.
The sad thing for me is that no one there had any idea of what to do. No one knew to get life vests or boats. If the ferry had been properly equipped, SOMEONE would have been trained with what to do for a water rescue. I can’t believe no one was trained for that. It’s a ferry. Someone drowning is basically the most common emergency they can have. Being unprepared is inexcusable, no matter what country you’re in.
Emergencies happen. You may only have one or two in your life, but damn they suck. And unless you want to spend years kicking yourself for not knowing things you had no way of knowing, it doesn’t hurt to learn how to handle the most common emergencies, like basic first aid, using a fire extinguisher (and when NOT to), etc.
I’m just a nobody. Not an EMT or anything like that. But I do speak from experience here.
This is ridiculous. They should ALL be in jail. The damn car stayed afloat for a LONG time. Long enough for
1. her to make a phone call and straighten out her WILL.
2. for the husband to have a cigarette.
3. for the locals to organize a betting pool.
Folks, it’s not like the car plunged into the river. It sat there for quite a few minutes. SHIPS have sunk faster than that Passat. Anyone making excuses for why those people couldn’t this and that is full of shit.
there is no pressure on the door really. She could have gotten out and they could have gotten in, period.
Here’s an ALTERNATIVE concept. She committed suicide. She didn’t think it would work (90% of female suicide attempts are just cries for attention) but she overestimated the bravery and devotion of all those around her.
So many punkassbitchmade chinos in one spot!!! Who’d have thought!??
i just realized that this is the perfect metaphor for china.
there is everything about china in this few minutes.
a polluted, dirty river
nobody giving a shit about other people
poor driving skills
the staring at other peoples dispair
and the net community doing like they are the very fibre of moral.
this is china, watch and shut up about it.
I want to know how on earth did she drive a car into a fucking river?!?!?!!1
Re: driving the car into the river, as someone who grew up on an island reachable only by ferry, it’s possible that she just forgot to put on her parking brake. Even with just a little pitching and rolling, without a parking break cars might start rolling around on the deck of a ferry.
Of course, the ferry that went to OUR island had a metal bar in place while it was moving so that it would have been impossible for a car to roll all the way off the boat…
aren’t ferrys supposed to have fences around them just to prevent this sort of shit??? I mean thats a baseline safety precaution.
There was nothing anyone could have done. Some people need to take a lesson in physics.
But then again, electric windows not working underwater should just be common sense.
Comparing “Hudson” and this incident is not correct.
1) The plane landed near to rescue boats location and at a busy area.
2) The plane’s crew and passenger were out on their own.. onto the wings.
If the passengers were all stuck inside the plane and sinking.. all the rescue boats will just float around the plane. some would attempt to step onto the wings. But all they could do is hang around.
So, what do you propose that police boat do ? go nearer and do what ? Break the windows, and the car would sink like a rock.
I think either, the police doesn’t know that there’s people in the car, or simply loss what to do. I don’t think routine police patrol boats have diving gears. Breaking the windows and causing the car to sink.. thus killing the lady.. will be a bigger scandal. Like always, people would blamn the police for action and inaction alike.
Either way, the patrol boat should approach nearer to the car, just to show concern… for the media. it simply more comforting.. i guess. Don’t mean to be cruel.. but even I would be loss what to do.
I’m not too surprised that no stranger offered to help, it’s known as bystander effect and it is studied extensively in psychology. Strangely, people are more likely to come to the rescue when less people are around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
However, this effect could be offset by training. Which surprises me that police did not nothing. Since the present of police will actually deter other people from participating, and probably why people actually restrained the husband. (don’t jump in, you’ll just get in the way of professional etc.)
You forget that even if the car sinks faster, with the windows broken, the woman can get out.
There’s not much rationality involved here, perhaps not everything need be emblematic of whatever failings Chinese culture might have. This, as Joe number two so ably described, is bystander syndrome and ill-preparedness. If I was standing watching a police boat watching a woman drown in a car, I wouldn’t want to get in the way. And the police in China rarely have a sense of public responsibility.
Seeing and feeling cold water rush in through either front windows is a very scarry thing. She should’ve used the back door/window or the trunk if necessary.
The boats should have moved in so they could help her open a door or shatter a window.
She died out of everyone’s sheer stupidity
glenn > your comments are pretty dumb. stop watching megaman and go watch “mythbusters”…they cover the sinking car thing. everything on that show is 100% accurate, much like the chinese government bookkeepers.
infly > you are also we todd did.
veer left > love it.
izme > +1. you rock!
just like how DiCaprio says TIA in Blood Diamond…TIC!!! This is China.
That’s plenty, Kai
I would like to see the people above, who said Chinese are all pussy and stupid or something similar, being in this situation. Will they be as brave and decisive as they say they are, or are they just acting like internet tough guys and fantasying how heroic they will be if only they were given the chance and how all Chinese women will swoon to their heroic manliness?
Kai… sort it out.
The reason u are reading so much venom from the foreign people is that anybody who has spent any time in China would have experienced this kind of thing. In this respect, the finer details of this particular affair are largely irrelevant. It’s what it represents.
To give 1 example:
2 months ago, when I was in the metro, a lady got stuck between the doors and was screaming for help in the fear that the train would leave, thus ripping her in 2. With many people around her, everybody just stood and watched as she screamed and bellowed for her life. I (the only foreigner around) had to run over from far away, push the entertained ’sheeple’ out of the way, and pull the doors open to let her free before the train departed.
After the affair, she said nothing to me.. just stared at the ground because she had lost face.
My point is… please stop with your patronising, moderator, ‘here comes nice ol’ Kai to sort it all out’, attitude. It is reoccuring in all your comments, and frankly; it’s insulting… and predictable. You tell everyone to calm down a bit and then devise an opinion that falls somewhere in between criticism and defence. Being bland does not make your opinion right. Sounding liberal might make u feel that u are getting the moral high ground, but it is at the expense of the truth.
There are things that need to be said as it is. Even if it is just for the therapy of all us foreigners who have a vested interest in the mainland’s people not being ’sheeple’ and contributing more to humanity than just making stuff, copying stuff and buying Louis Vuitton handbags.
What better thing to get angry about, than a culture that encourages people not to help when someone is in trouble. And if you don’t accept that this phenomenon exists, then you are not even worth the time it took me to write this comment.
Shanghai women often think they are little Goddesses and can walk on water. This one just took the concept a bit too far.
@ Sayit asitis:
LoL, dude, guilty conscience much?
Did you feel persecuted by my comment? Are you one of those people who prefer to vent self-righteous indignation without anyone calling them out on it?
“Hey, some people are going a bit far…”
“Fuck you! Don’t tell me what to do! I’m not going a bit far at all! My opinion is correct! It is the TRUTH!”
I’m not begrudging people, like you, of your negative personal experiences and impressions. God knows I have plenty of my own.
First, its important to recognize the fact that they’re just a few data points. While it is natural to extrapolate broader and generalizing conclusions from those data points, we still ought to be rational enough to notice when we start making “us good, them bad” comments.
Second, we tend to notice and remember the bad more than we notice and remember the good. Bad news sells, good news doesn’t. Most people are pre-disposed to having long memories for failures and disappointments.
1. Was there anything wrong with what I said that is making you react so defensively?
2. Am I wrong for pointing out that it may be going a bit far to take select examples and make comments bordering on denouncing an entire culture/people as all being cowards who don’t help their fellow man, sometimes explicitly upholding one’s own culture/people as being obviously and irreproachably “better?”
3. Am I wrong for pointing out that there are indeed plenty of stories of heroes or heroics within China or amongst the Chinese as well?
4. Am I wrong for agreeing with others that people failing to help others in distress also occurs quite often in non-Chines society/culture?
5. So, tell me again, why are you so defensive about this? To the point where you’re venting what appears to be pent up resentment towards me personally (ostensibly engendered over your observation of my comments on this website)?
I’m not begrudging people the freedom to be angry. I’m angry, upset, disappointed that the bystanders failed to act and even more so with the police, the “professionals,” who should’ve had more recourse than civilians. At the same time, I also think it is going a bit far to start damning an entire race of people and an entire culture based upon a few negative experiences. I’m also going to chide those who start thinking their own culture/race is intrinsically better and make comments to that effect. Them doing so just isn’t necessary.
Is my interjection spoiling the party for you or something? Dude, this website isn’t your personal playground for venting your frustrations over the Chinese, with nary a person to ever object when they think otherwise. I or other people doing so is not about getting the moral high ground nor is it at the expense of any truth.
I’m sorry you’re annoyed that you have to share this space with me and that you view sharing such a space as “insulting” to you. Just as you view my attitude and comments as “insulting…and predictable,” I too feel the same way about the attitudes and comments I’m responding to.
Did you, for one moment, think other people wouldn’t expect a torrent of “oh, see how terrible the Chinese are!” comments and react to that? Are you really going to balls-out begrudge my reaction that has somehow interfered with your “therapy” session for “foreigners who have a vested interest in the mainland’s people not being ’sheeple’”?
Dude, you neither have a monopoly on the truth nor are you being a good arbiter of it. You’re not actually proving anything about what I said wrong, you just don’t like me, my attitude, or anyone who seems to be raining on your parade. Both you and I are angry and disappointed with what happened here, but you’re just upset someone isn’t letting you make wholesale insults against the entire Chinese people and culture at the same time.
If you’re not guilty of thinking just a wee bit self-righteously, then be more secure in yourself. If you want to be politically incorrect or an asshole, then have the balls to just be one. Don’t whine and feel “insulted” when others call you out on it.
Sorry, zoned out after the 3rd sentence.
Longer than usual though. Must have hit a nerve.
@Sayit Asis
I fully agree with your observation of kai’s behaviour in this site. After a while, he is quite predictable.
One of my ex-girlfriends once explained this ‘do-nothing’ attitude to me. She said people have been raised this way because of the totalitarian state and how unpredictable things are/were. Ie, the person you help might accuse you of something to save face; the bystanders might say you did something wrong to save their face; the police will come and they will get your ID and possibly come to your house and who knows where that might lead. So you just do nothing and keep out of trouble.
@ Sayit Asis:
LoL, just calling it as it is. ;)
But hey, you’re learning. Kudos to you.
the most
First stop the boat
1/find someone who can 1/swim 2/ is not afraid of the Huang pu? water 3/can hold their breathe
2/ if possible find a rope, life vest and have someone on the boat feed the line as they swim to the vehicle
3/ now the tricky part…knock on the drivers window to see if the driver is still conscious and listen for a reply or shouting? if she’s conscious … smash the front window as best you can whilst the water rushes into the car. At this moment you are going to have to multi task while sinking with the car. ensure you make the hole large enough for the lady to escape from… which may be extremely difficult as you can have zero visibility in the brown water. Reach inside and yank the lady out of the vehicle.
Dear all. It is not a racial ill, it is a cultural phenomenon.
People here rarely help others who are injured in an accident. I have stopped more than once to pick up someone who had a scooter/motorcycle crash (albeit at low speeds) and nobody helped them. I’ve seen people just watch as someone writhes on the road after being hit by a car. Why? It’s safer to not get involved as under Chinese law you become liable for that person and can share or receive all the blame for their misfortune should the police, the offending party and yes, sometimes even the victim, choose to point the finger at you.
This kind of Anti-Samaritan climate breeds the kind of pathetic apathy that we saw in this case.
Dear doubters…
1. yes I would have jumped into the water. Yes Hammy, the bystanders are total pussies, and the husband and the son will be forever plagued with the knowledge that they DID NOTHING to even attempt to get her out!
2. yes, I also understand physics. she could have gotten out long before the water got even halfway up the car. I am impressed with the Passats buoyancy.
3. the faster the water comes in, the faster the escape. failing that, she could have maximized the breathing time by climbing to the back the high part.
4. You have yet to explain what that boat was doing there, aside from NOTHING.
This is nothing but a sign of moral decay. The death of this woman was entirely preventable. Even after going in water inside a car, you can get out if you move fast.
The people that stood by, the person that video taped this, are nothing but a bunch of pussies.
Well obviously Chinese heroism is of the same quality as Chinese products.
WTF, why’s my comment deleted?
It was not deleted. I do not know why but it was in the Akismet spam. Maybe your fake email address? – Fauna
One only needs to look at the Sichuan earthquake to see heroism, not arbitrary anecdotes.
Someone who knows how to swim and knew there was a person in the sinking car should have jumped into the water to help.
That said, looks like something similar happened in the US too.
http://www.ems1.com/training/articles/331336-Fla-paramedics-did-job-by-not-helping-sinking-car-officials-say
*******************************************************************
BRADENTON, Fla. — Chaos reigned on Halloween night after a car drove through a dead end and crashed into a Bradenton retention pond.
Two men from the car were in the water, calling for help. As their car sank, neighbors rushed over and dialed 911.
A Manatee County Emergency Medical Services lieutenant, Mark Jones, heard the call and sped to the scene; he was the first public official there.
By then, one man had drowned. The other was alive, thrashing in the pond.
Jones did not go into the water to help, and took no other action in an attempt to save the man. Neither did the ambulance crew that arrived next.
When the neighbors tried to jump in, the paramedics held them back.
Both men from the car drowned.
*******************************************************************
Well, I can’t say I’m surprised because Im not. Not caring for other people is nothing new. People want to live in their own little box being enslaved by a system that makes them think they are happy.
The action of the ferry crew and cops in that video are definitely cowardly and rare in western countries but the actions of the bystanders are pretty normal.
Hartford Connecticut USA – 78 year old Angel Arce Torres hit by a car and no one physically helps him
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,363493,00.html
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0t4wWGH51-A
This happens evereywhere, its not really a culture or country thing. It does typically happens more in larger cities though
Some people age like wine and get better with age, some people age like donuts and get stale.
If this happen in the US, you will see at least a dozen people diving into the river to save that woman… Chinese man only stand around and point finger…
Even the harbour police boat personnel just stand there because well saving people in the river is NOT part of his job description, that’s why!!!
I can’t accept that it was cowardice on the part of that many people for that long. Certainly someone knew how to swim and adrenaline is stronger than fear. I mean that’s what it evolved for.
Maybe it was that they didn’t know she was in there. Maybe it was that they the impulse to defer to authorities is that strong. I’m not sure how old their kid was, I suppose that might have been a factor, too.
But I can’t swim and there is no fucking way I’d just stand there and watch if I knew my wife was in the car and no one was doing anything. I’m not trying to say I’m a hero. I’m not saying I can punch through tempered glass with my bare hand. And I’m certainly not saying I’d have done it for just anyone (since so far it’s never happened and you never really know until it does). But if they tried to hold me I would fight. If I couldn’t save her I would drown. I just can’t understand why the husband didn’t.
1. her to make a phone call and straighten out her WILL.
Or why she didn’t do anything to try to escape. My guess is suicide to defraud accident insurance, given the current economy.
just like how DiCaprio says TIA in Blood Diamond
Loved that movie. DiCaprio is today’s Bogart.
http://www.ems1.com/training/articles/331336-Fla-paramedics-did-job-by-not-helping-sinking-car-officials-say
Not really similar. It was the middle of the night. A car had driven off a dead end and flew into a man-made lake. These two paramedics were the first responders. They didn’t have training in how to attempt a water rescue. They didn’t have any equipment on their rig with which to attempt a rescue. No rope. No life preservers. Not even flashlights.
Before they arrived, one man died. While they waited for the proper help they kept themselves and others from going in the water and making the situation worse. The lake itself was pitch black, of considerable depth and landscaped around the shore with thick foliage. Since the power failed in the vehicle before they arrived, they couldn’t even see it.
If the police boat knew there was a woman in the car but lacked equipment for a water rescue, in the very waters they patrol, I understand them waiting for someone who was.
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,363493,00.html
The article with the video says a 78-year old man is trying to cross a street near the capitol of Connecticut on a Friday during rush hour. The driver who hits him never stops. The man is thrown over the hood and flips to the ground, then lay there bleeding and unconscious as nine other cars continue past him. A man on a scooter circles him then leaves.
After only about two minutes a police cruiser happens by on an unrelated call and begins rescue. The man survived, but was left in critical condition.
Ironically, at least a few witnesses standing nearby spoke to reporters about the behavior of the drivers.
I didn’t watch the youtube video. I don’t really like snuff films.
If this happen in the US, you will see at least a dozen people diving into the river to save that woman
I’m inclined to agree, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it.
Whatever people said they are going to do online, it’s a totally different matter in real life. Do not dismiss the bystander effect as something only affecting inferior and inflexible human beings, or “sheeple” as you call them. When you actually see this situation, it is a lot harder to actually put your thoughts into actions. You may think in your mind, “Oh, I maybe should help them”, but your fear of danger or hope that some other people will take the risk will actually take over and make you just as much as a “sheeple”. It’s not that these people are cowards. They are the normal ones, as in most people in the world would probably act that way. If there are ones that stood ahead of the crowd and actually jump into the water, they are the special heroic ones.
In addition, don’t drag political ideology into this. Using political ideology to explain things fails almost always. They are just way too rigid. This has nothing to do with whatever political system people grew up in. This careless of others public moral arise from modernization, where people are getting wealthy and growing distant from each other. This lack of public moral will naturally be cured when society has developed enough down the line and people start realizing their lack of morals and try to solve it. I think my explanation fit pretty well with past examples of America.
@Nathan C
Did you not see the examples posted by others above. Yes, these kind of things can happen even in the Great America Nation who as we all know have the most superior morals in the whole world.
Hammy, it is natural to protect those you love. The husband and son should have dragged others in the water with them. You’re going to let someone stop you from trying to save your wife or mom? I’d kill to protect my family.
It’s also natural to want to help others in need. All this shows is moral decay. Not caring at all for your fellow man.
Hammy, it is natural to protect those you love. The husband and son should have dragged others in the water with them. You’re going to let someone stop you from trying to save your wife or mom? I’d kill to protect my family.
It’s also natural to want to help others in need. All this shows is moral decay. Not caring at all for your fellow man.
Right on, Hammy.
It always gives me a warm tingling feel inside when people roll over themselves claiming they’d have done all sorts of heroic things while asserting this is the result of China this and that likewise adding this would never happen in American.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/01/waiting.room.death/
Hammy, it’s not about society, it is the individual heart. How they are raised and all of that. If a person is not raised with morals, principals and values, they are going to be deaf to their conscience. It’s exactly what goes on in this world as a whole. I mean come on, this was a wife and a mother.
There would be no second thoughts of jumping in if I was married and it were my wife, or my mother! It’s a natural instant reaction to protect those you love, no matter the cost to you.
@ GG:
Well, to be fair, many people may GENUINELY feel they would do the heroic thing were they in the same situation but, as others have already pointed out, no one really knows until they’re actually in the same situation. What bothers me with some of these comments is that there really is enough anecdotal and documented examples of most people failing to act, failing to be heroes in these situations so that no one should be elevating this into a some arbitrary difference between races, culture, or (as Hawkeye is now implying) a matter of how people are raised (which actually is in part about the society that raises them). It just makes them look like an ass when they’re trying to use this to put down another race/culture/society and reaffirm their own. Seriously, how self-righteously conceited can one really be?
Again, no one knows whether anyone else would or wouldn’t do something individually. There’s moral outrage and then there’s largely unjustified looking down your nose moralizing AT another race/society/culture. If you yourself would jump in there to do something, bravo for YOU but don’t deny the very real facts that plenty more people, even from your own race or society, WOULD NOT…and all for VERY understandable, well-documented, and well-researched reasons.
We all WANT heroes, but the very definition of a hero is someone who does something UNEXPECTED and OUT OF THE ORDINARY. Last I checked, Western society was not a HEROIC society largely composed of HEROES. In fact, the very existence of the word HERO in Western society ought to demonstrate that MOST people in Western society, like Chinese society, are NOT heroes who perform heroic actions at the scene of every tragedy. Like the West, China has its examples of cowards, bystanders, and heroes Like the West, everyone is moved when the hero humbly denies being a hero and says he or she was only doing what any person would do.
Reading the original article, it does sound like the husband wanted to jump in there but was held back. To be honest with ourselves, it really isn’t that hard for a few people to hold back one person and none of us actually know just how hard the guy tried. It’s distasteful and bordering on disrespectful to accuse the husband of not caring much less accuse him of not caring by virtue of him simply being Chinese.
“If foreigners see this video, our harmonious country will be attacked/slandered yet again.”
yeh women drivers huh?
Kai, I’m certainly not prejudice against any one based on ethnicity or nationality. And I don’t think we can say society plays a role. It does not take a whole village to raise a child. It takes two responsible parents. People in love with money and thinking that’s all that matters don’t deserve to be having children. There is no room for compromise in properly raising your children. I’ve made it clear this is a world wide issue.
And again, if it is your own flesh and blood, you will help them no matter what! There’s no room for debate, no room for what if’s.
That is your flesh and blood. And as a Christian, family comes before all else.
Oh and Kai. I wasn’t attacking you or any thing. :P Just adding some further input to my previous thoughts on the matter.
@ Hawkeye:
I’m big on sociology so I’ll respectfully disagree that it doesn’t take a whole village to raise a child. However, I do think I understand what you’re trying to say and I do respect where I think your heart is.
Oh, and just to harmlessly poke you a bit, as a Christian, God comes before all else, including family. ;)
Hi Kai, hehe yes, I know God comes first. :P I just meant in all else. Well see, the responsibility is really with the parents. It is not the responsibility of the government or anyone else to raise our children.
If we let the world raise our children, our children will be like the world. We behave like those we hang around. Well anyway, have a nice day. :)
Mostly, I’m willing to forgive or ignore the reaction of every person at that scene, save one. The bystander effect is just another way of saying “somebody else’s problem”. It’s easy not to get involved, because it’s not your problem. But when it’s your wife, it’s your problem. If you’re not willing to get involved, how can you ask another man to do it for you, be it policeman, stranger, what-have-you?
I’m really not trying to get into the East vs West debate, but do you think it’s at least possible that the practice of arranged marriages could have had a role in the husband’s reaction? I’ve been with my girl since I was 13. We’ve been through several emergencies and I already know what I would and would not do for her. Our relationship is based on love, not advantageous houkou.
The titles ‘husband and wife’ imply a certain level of relationship, but isn’t it at least possible that this man simply felt no affection for this woman? I don’t think that is a horrible thing to consider. I am only asking because I do not know.
“And I don’t think we can say society plays a role. It does not take a whole village to raise a child. It takes two responsible parents.”-Hawkeye
Really? Unless you live in a desert or on a mountain top with your family, others influence most certainly influences the growth of you children. Teachers peers, neighbours etc.
If it wasn’t a societal issue, then why did so many people have the SAME reaction? Everyone is victim of the bystander effect??
SHEEEEEEEEEPLE!!!!!!
hmmm…. I just used influence twice in one sentence. Oooops. Too much Jacob TwoTwo for me me.
@ jayman:
Well, we don’t know if it was an arranged marriage, and again, the article says he wanted to go down but was restrained.
@ Veer Left:
Heh, noun and verb.
@Sayit Asitis
I know what you’re saying about the incident you had on the subway. The first time I came to China many years ago, I had a difficult time understanding the Chinese behavior as a society. I would often wonder “Do they have common sense? Do they care? Why do they do that?”. It bothered me for a long time. Until a friend told me he had read a book written by a foreigner who lived in China for many years, about what he observed in China. In that book, he explained why the Chinese do the things they do, and it boils down to this one thing: The sphere of importance to a Chinese person.
The inner sphere (most important) – Himself or herself.
The next layer – Their family members.
The last layer – Others.
After he told me this, I began to realize it is not about which culture is superior, they are just different.
Those people on that train didn’t do anything because she was not important to any of them. You helped because your culture (probably Christian) told you to love your neighbor as yourself.
I hope this would help.
What percentage of the Chinese population can actually swim? I can’t find any concrete figures on the internet. Maybe nobody knows. Judging by anecdotal evidence here in Hunan (land-locked) I would say it is a surprisingly low percentage across most of the country. Anybody know?
i just read in the newspaper that the official excuse for the 2 coast patrol officers that didnt do shit to saver her is the following…
“they were afraid to break the water surface with their boat which would have caused the car to sink immediately.”
there you go inventors of the great 4, read about “buoyancy”.
thats a car, not a bug.
LoL, are you serious? Do you have a link you could share with us?
If that was seriously the “professionals’” excuse, that’s a new level of incompetency. Did they try explaining what they were hoping for by not breaking the “water surface”? Were they hoping to avoid her sinking sooner because they were waiting for help or was it purely just to prolong her last remaining moments of terror?
Shanghai daily from 2or3 days ago:
“Actually, the two maritime officers on that boat were in close contact with the water rescue force during the incident,” said a senior offictial with the Shanghai Maritime Safety Administration. “They feared taht teh approach of their boat would break the water surface and cause the floating car to sink,” the official said.
@Nathan C
“If this happen in the US, you will see at least a dozen people diving into the river to save that woman… ”
Well, Seven people just watched as a girl’s head was chopped off in Virginal Tech. The whole event supposed to have lasted a minute before police could arrive. Bystander effect and shock of “this isn’t happening” is universal and much stronger than you think.
First off, Xin Yang wasn’t there with a husband and child. Her only companion was the one cutting her apart. And we have no idea what the witnesses did, other than two of them called 911. Every article I’ve seen is either the AP wire report or based off of it, and not one of them describes the actual murder. They say there was no argument preceding it and that the killer was holding her head when police arrived (less than 2 minutes after being called).
Not one article described the witnesses or their actions. No one knows whether they were male or female, or if they even would have been physically able to stop the attacker. Since it occured in the cafe in her dormitory building, it’s at least possible it was only women.
And we can only assume that they made no moves to confront him, since there is no mention of heroics, but a lack of testimony means we are unable to know. There is a two minute gap in the continuity, which perhaps will be addressed if the case makes it to trial.
How is helping someone out of the water anywhere near the same as confronting an armed man anyway? Stretching to try to make connections where none exist weakens the argument, which had already been strongly agreed upon, that there are many factors that must contribute to allow something like this to happen.
Sorry for the double post.
“They feared taht teh approach of their boat would break the water surface and cause the floating car to sink,” the official said.
Maybe they were waiting for the woman to exit the vehicle, when it would be simpler to get her out of the water. Also, saying the police were in contact with water rescue makes it seem like they were waiting for a different crew who could safely enter the water to extract her, since she was ultimately unable (or as I believe, unwilling) to escape on her own.
Yeah. This is weird because someone should have jumped in the water and helped the woman. Why was the coastguard* just standing there doing anything.
This woman’s life is gone because of some bullshit.